The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Curry-LeBron Legacy Battle, Ja’s Mega-leap, and Jabari Smith’s Lottery Rise With Seerat Sohi, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle Mann

Episode Date: January 5, 2022

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Seerat Sohi to discuss the legacies of LeBron James and Steph Curry, as well as Chris Paul and Kevin Durant, and waning expectations for this Lakers' season (3:18). Then Bill talks with Rob Mahoney about the Grizzlies' roster depth, Ja Morant's accelerated development, the second-place Suns, and more (41:05). Finally Bill is joined by J. Kyle Mann to discuss the top prospects for the 2022 NBA draft, including Jabari Smith at Auburn, Paolo Banchero at Duke, and Chet Holmgren at Gonzaga (1:22:46). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Seerat Sohi, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle Mann Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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it in time for Wednesday's games. Coming up on this, speaking of basketball, I have three ringer colleagues come on and talk about some different themes. Syrit Sohi's going to talk about Curry versus LeBron, the legacy battle. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And then Rob Mahoney, we're going to talk about the Grizzlies. What's going on there?

Is this a real contender? Stealth contender? Can they get better? What should they do? And a little son's talk at the end of that. And then finally, J. Kyle Mann is going to tell us about the top three in the 2022 NBA draft and how to scout them if you want to start watching college basketball pretty soon. So there you go.

I'm taping this after we taped all of those back and forths. I noticed when I was on the Zoom that my face looked red, redder than usual. Now I have a little Irish in me, so sometimes it'll get a little red, but really red. And I mentioned on Parent Corner on Sunday, my wife tested positive for COVID last Thursday. She's doing fine. She was boosted and vaxxed, all that stuff. Then yesterday, my son tested positive and he was vaccinated, not boosted. So I figured this was coming for me. My daughter, she's just driving around in her car like she's Linda Hamilton at the end of the Terminator 2.

Terminator 1? Can't remember. One of those Termin 2. Terminator 1? Can't remember one of those Terminators. Terminator 1. Anyway, I was concerned that my face looked so red. So after the podcast, I ran over to get rapid tested. And of course I have COVID. So this podcast you're about to listen to, I did when I didn't realize that I had COVID. This is the closest I'm going to get to the MJ's flu game. I should be fine. I'm vaxxed. I'm boosted. I'll power through this. If I'm not on the Thursday podcast, maybe get a little more worried. But yeah, I don't know. When they do the last dance about me, I don't know if this will be a whole episode or not. But I do think this was

a really good podcast. I felt like about 8% off, but that's how I feel most of the time. Anyway, stay're going to talk about legacies. And I asked you, I was like, let's go 25 minutes. What do you care about? And you said legacies. And I thought that was a great instinct because you're right. There's some fun stuff happening right now. We'll start with Curry and LeBron.

Or should I say Curry versus LeBron? So you brought this up to me. I'm like, all right, LeBron, he's unassailable. He's one of the top three guys of all time. He's got a better resume than Curry does. But did some digging. There's a really good last 10 years who's the best player case that is now brewing.

So why was this fascinating to you? Yeah, I think, well, the first person I ever heard bring it up was Stephen A. And, you know, I think he just kind of speaks from the top of the perch and we all just kind of follow from there. So I just did the natural thing. But no, I think really like it's probably like you said,

the last 10 years, Curry's impact, like there's obviously a lot of conversation to have around that. He's also just a little bit more likable than pretty much anybody else on the planet, not just LeBron. So I realize that it's easier to look at these things in terms of conversations, especially it's, I, I, I, I realized that it's, it's easier to look at these things in terms of conversations, except for like, especially in basketball where we're never going to stop debating it. Yeah.

So to me, it's like, can you be in the conversation? Um, you know, I'm a LeBron stan. I'm probably going to die on the Hill of like him, uh, him always probably being better than Curry. But the fact that it's becoming, or could one day be a conversation was really interesting to me, especially in the context of this season, because like I feel like because of how good LeBron is, you'd have to have more accolades than him if you were Curry. But at the same time, it's like when you look at how their careers are shaping up right now, like LeBron with the Lakers right now, I don't know.

Like there's a very there's with the caveat that we don't know anything that's going to happen like there's a very reasonable likelihood that you know lebron won't win another ring from here and and steph could win too right and if he has one more than him give him like the two finals mvps and then you start talking about like his impact and just the face he's been for the nba like i feel like people are going to start talking about like his impact and just the face he's been for the NBA like I feel like people are going to start talking about it um and the other thing that's happened is more LeBron centric I think is that uh MJ just kind of got a little bit of a leg up with the last dance as well like I feel like that almost gave gave him an extra ring on lebron where you know like the one two debate that

i think that we were kind of having before that it almost feels like it feels like jordan dominates that conversation again there's almost been like a not really like a complete overcorrection but like a hey like well we know who the real goat really is right so you know i think for lebron it's like if you get to five you can kind, you can comfortably be in the one-two range with MJ. And I just don't know that history is going to allow that if he sticks at four, no matter the conversations that we have right now. But if he does, that's why this season is important to me.

If he can get one right now, he's got five. And then you're like, I don't know. Can you hang around for six? And I don't think we ever thought six would happen, right? Well, five's not happening. I hate to bring it to you. Right? Yeah.

The last dance thing is interesting. Last dance is interesting, though, because first of all, LeBron wasn't in it. And it was intentional. I do think there was some gamesmanship with that. Really? With Jordan. Yeah. I think he's pretty conspicuously absent from it. But I think LeBron since the last dance

has definitely been more out there in social media and kind of wading into things than he used to be and seems way more concerned about legacy stuff and saying stuff like that was the hardest championship anyone's had to win in the bubble and saying stuff like that was the hardest championship anyone's had to win in the bubble and things like that, that he just didn't kind of used to say. I think he's been definitely more cringy the last 18 months, but with the Curry LeBron thing though, LeBron has the resume now, but it reminds me a little, I'm going to use Brady with both guys here. So with LeBron, I think he's at the same point Brady is.

Because I think when Antonio Brown melted down a couple of days ago in football on the Bucs, and he already lost Chris Godwin, I think Brady's ship sailed to win a Super Bowl with this Bucs team this year. And considering that he's going to be, you know, he's out in his mid-40s, I think the ship might have sailed. This might have been it. He might have gotten the one extra Super Bowl in Tampa, he's in out in his mid forties. I think the ship might've sailed. This might've been it. He might've gotten the one extra Superbowl in Tampa and that's it. And I feel like LeBron might be in that same boat. This is his 19th year. He's made 10 final

finals. He's had four rings, but I don't see a path with this Lakers team. And I don't even think, I don't even know what the move would be, but it's certainly not going to happen this year. And then next year, Westbrook is an expiring contract, but no picks to really trade. I don't see the path next year either. The league is deeper. The top teams are better. So unless he switches teams again, which would be the fourth switch of his career, I think he's kind of stuck with what he has, which is like kind of a mid-level playoff team that has no chance to win. Whereas Curry, to bring the Brady analogy back again, Brady had this thing where he won three titles early and then he had a drought. He had this drought from 2005 all the way to 2000, basically 10 years without a title. And then he had the second 2.0 version of Brady, right?

So it was like the 1.0, then the 2.0, and he wins three and three, and then the Bucks are basically 3.0. This Curry thing is now a 2.0. And it's not just about the fact that I think they're the favorites to win this year. They're kind of built to be good for a while. They have their nucleus in place. Clay and Draymond aren't that old. They have all these young people. They have these trade pieces. They have guys like Poole and Kaminga. They have the Wiseman trade card if they want. They have money to spend.

And I think Curry's going to age really well the same way Brady did. So in a way, even though LeBron has four rings, Curry has three, LeBron's made 10 finals, Curry's made five. There's a world where that looks completely different six, seven years from now. Maybe Curry's in nine finals by 2026. Who knows? So anyway, I think it's more in play

than maybe I realized when you texted me. That's exactly what I was thinking. It's just like, he just doesn't have that much time anymore. So do you think, are you completely cutting bait on the Lakers this year? Yes, I am. I am. I think they could be

a tough out in a round, but four straight rounds, the amount, you're already seeing it. Like LeBron's been great the last couple weeks, right? And everybody's made

a big fuss of it. I don't think that's sustainable for eight months. And that's the only way that team's going to compete. He has to be like 2013 LeBron, basically basically just for them to eke out these games against like the fucking sacramento yeah but like don't so this is why i keep kind of

coming back to it is that like don't you feel like you've had this conversation so many times with lebron just like pathetic strange team around him that is like partially his own doing so you can't completely just like blame it on everybody else. But at the same time, like is can sometimes put it together. It has a ton of vets that do want to win a championship, might be able to like, you know,

just, just rage against the dying, the light a little bit. Like, I'd be curious what like Carmelo looks like in a playoff series when he knows that this might be his like last time ever there uh type of team like think about think about that sentence calves 2019 calves sorry think about that sentence you just said i'm curious to see what carmelo is going to be like in a class it's like that's how bleak it is for

them okay okay let's let's start with this like that i completely understand that the rational thing to do is completely cut bait on this team. I've watched them. They don't make any sense in modern basketball. I've never been a Westbrook person. At the same time, the Cavs in 2016, they made it... I feel like in the last two times LeBron's won a title, whether it was in the bubble

or 2016, none of those teams really inspired a lot of confidence. This is kind of the thing that I feel like he has done throughout his career. he creates these puzzles that are a little bit like too hard and then he gets out of them sometimes and other times he just doesn't so I don't know I'm still like because AD hasn't been healthy because of what he was able to do in the bubble I'm still not really ready to completely cut bait also just because it's LeBron. But I get it, you know, like, wait, hold on.

I see what's happening. Well, let's compare 2016 in the bubble season to now 2016. They're in a terrible conference, right? Easy. They're going to be able to cruise every year to the finals, which they did. And then they also had Kyrie during his last like really good normal year, unless you want to say 2017, but 16, 16 and 17, I guess, were his last two normal years. Love was still a real asset who got traded for the number one pick, who was a top 25 guy.

And then they still had Thompson, who was a top five lottery pick who could play in a playoff series. They had Richard Jefferson. They had vets all over the place and they could play defense. They could get stops. That doesn't make you really have to twist and turn and be like, oh, who's getting it? Trevor's going to be healthy. And LeBron five years younger with the ability to go for as many months

in a row as possible. But even then, I will always think if Draymond doesn't get kicked out of game five. There's some great Warriors conspiracy stuff with that. If you talk to anybody

involved with the Warriors, they bring, that's like one of the first things they bring up. It's like, oh, the league wanted LeBron to win that year. It's like one of the funny,

anyway, 2016. That's interesting. Yeah, it's a good conspiracy one. Yeah, that is. That is. It's like, why bring up how

like Kyrie and Love were out in 2015 or they just kind of. Yeah, I feel like. I feel like. I feel like they. Yeah, they traded. And in hindsight, they just kind of traded the injuries. I think 15 and 16 even out. And I think 17 and 18, the Warriors should have won because they had Durant.

But 2020, they get this incredible Davis run. And that's the combo of those two with the role players they had. That was a good team in retrospect. And now we've seen what guys like Caruso and even Kuzma, the Wizards, like there's some talent in that team. They don't have anything remotely approaching that this year. And then we get to the Davis thing where Davis was supposed to be the guy he was handing the torch to. Can't stay on the floor, and doesn't look like the same guy anymore. And I don't know if he gets it back or not. Yeah, that's the one thing with them that I don't necessarily look at being too long-term.

I don't know that Davis is ever going to be a great regular season player, just given the injury history and everything, but I think when a guy shows you that he can turn it on in the playoffs, I kind of believe that he'll be able to do it again. You know what I mean? That's pretty optimistic.

About Davis? Well, let's make the case for them. If you're saying do not cut bait, the case would be Davis comes back, they bully ball everybody. They're just like, we have these two big physical guys and we're going to bully ball you. We're going to

play LeBron at center. We're going to try these weird lineups, but I still, it can't be the current nucleus they have. It can't be Malik Monk and Avery Bradley and Russell Westbrook and all these dudes. Cause they're not going to be able to get stops in the playoffs. It's not happening. Yeah.

I mean, I, I agree. I'm trying to get you there. No, I agree. I'm there. I was looking at all their stats and everything. They're not even like, even with LeBron playing well,

they're not really that good. The last 15 games, they've been a bottom 10 offense and defense. They have not been good. And they're not really like, the really only thing that they've been doing that has been consistent is scoring in transition and if they're not doing that it's really tough but I also think that they're the type of feedback team that can get on like a feedback loop there too where if they do start getting out then it's just to be, it's going to be harder for you to score on them.

Like their offense could potentially become their defense. I know how this sounds though. I know how this sounds. Let's move on. Let's move on. I don't really want to like, I don't want to want to put too much faith in the Lakers. My only thing is that like,

I'm not necessarily going to, I'm going to take some time to. The real issue to the real issue the real issue for them is the league is way better and yeah they the talent in the league and we're i'm going to talk about memphis with mahoney later you just look at like the talent memphis has where like their 9th 10th 11 guys we just didn't have that five six years ago and i think it's harder to sneak through a conference. You talk about the Warriors, the Suns, the Jazz, who as a third best team in a conference is a pretty, pretty tough foe. And I just, for them, for the Lakers not to have home

court in any series and then have to go through at least two of those teams seems unrealistic. Going back to LeBron and Curry. So if you go just like last 10 years, it's pretty interesting how close it is. 2013 to right now, LeBron's 26, 8, and 8. Curry's 26, 5, and 7. LeBron's 53,36, 72% splits. Curry's 48-43-91. They both have three rings. I think Curry's been in five finals and LeBron's been in one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Curry's been same city. LeBron's been in three. LeBron had the 27-game winning streak in Miami that first year.

Curry had the 24-game winning streak and the 73 and nine record, which broke, which, you know, set the standard. LeBron had the three, one finals come back. Curry had the heroic,

almost won the 2019 title anyway, even without clay and Durant by the end. Um, and then you have Curry has the three point record that he broke. And LeBron, the craziest LeBron stat for me, other than the 60K minutes already is he, did you see that thing where he has the points record at every age from like age 18? It's like, it's like career points for people who just turned 19, people who just turned 20. And LeBron has it every year for 18 years straight, all the way to age 36, and he'll have it for 37 too.

The point is, there's a pretty good case for the last 10 years, but then LeBron has these previous nine years before that, which is why he's one of the top three. But I do think if Curry, the way that, I think it's a good sign that he still feels like he's getting better, that they're smarter about the team they're putting around him, that they have all these young assets. I do feel like there's some Brady 2010s potential with him where we're going to be like, oh, no, he's not going to be able to be the main guy in a team and he'll be 40 and we'll still

be able to be the main guy in a team if it's built correctly, which it feels like it is. Yeah, he's he's definitely having the best season of his career right now, which is terrifying. And it does feel like he's not necessarily on the downswing. And I feel like this also, well, the Warriors kind of came in and they ruined everyone's best laid plans, right? Like not just LeBron, but like the other guy, I think the West that we want to talk about is chris paul is like well we went from like can curry really do

it to like wait no he's actually the best point guard in the league right now and he's taking like the point god mantle away from like i guess that's always going to be chris's nickname right but like i don't know i haven't really heard anybody call him that in a while I think we saw it a little bit in the playoffs in Phoenix but you know guess who's out right um it just both these both these guys to me have been so impacted by by Curry but they've also like Curry and the Warriors have become like an interesting mirror for for us to look at the flaws of LeBron and and Chris or like the perceived flaws even because like they kind of push the league forward a little bit where I think LeBron came into an NBA that I also I give him a lot of credit for like the first the first like seven years of his career where I mean like he's

he's a teenager and he's like you know making these plays and like making these extra passes that like other people are just saying that he shouldn't be making. And he came into a league that was very much about hero ball. And it really didn't like fit the style that that he wanted to play. And then like, you know, 20 years later, that is the style, right? Like it's driving kick basketball. And the idea then was that like he was too unselfish. And then I think, like, at some point in, you know, the Cavs-Warriors runs, just like with LeBron's high usage, the way that he was with his teammates,

you know, not necessarily, like, the way he was with Kyrie, I guess. I don't know. I think the stats kind of bear out that he's been a selfless player, regardless of who he's playing with. But I think there's maybe the off off court stuff a little bit but also just sometimes these things show up like somebody takes just as many shots as they used to but the like they're not dribbling the ball as much because one guy has it for 20 seconds and like we just know that's not really the case with with Steph so I feel like

not only did he come in and and like you know kind of like cut some of the years that these guys could win rings that he also like just kind of shifted the narrative on on who they are as players yeah it does feel like he's had he's played with a lot of talented guys certainly more than Curry at this point um and you think like Wade was the one I think in the first Miami season that was able to play with LeBron and still be 100% of what he was. And then the second version was Davis

in that bubble season where Davis, that was the best of what he was. But Kyrie, it felt like maybe in some ways that was the best situation for him because Kyrie's like the cat that jumps on your lap every once in a while and makes some threes. And then he kind of goes away and then he comes back. But Love, he had, you know, Love was

never the same when he went to the Caps. He was awesome on Minnesota. And I don't really know why he just became this guy who stood in the corner and occasionally got rebounds, things like that. I think what's interesting about Curry with this specific team that they built around him is there's an infectiousness with him and an unselfishness about him as a teammate and as somebody who doesn't really need to take a ton of shots for the team to win and is just so constantly positive. And they can win if he doesn't play well, which is such a rare thing for a superstar. But there is a play, you know, there's been only a few teams, I think, ever

where there's like a real unselfishness to them and people are just moving without the ball in a way that's just like on another level. And I do think the Warriors have that this year. There's a play in the game the other day, not the one yesterday, but the one a couple days ago when and they're making a run

I forget who they're playing but they're closing out somebody on Sunday night I think or Saturday night and Curry they get a rebound Curry comes down drives to the foul line throws it in the corner to I think Wiggins

then cuts to the foul line, throws it in the corner to, I think, Wiggins. Then cuts to the basket, gets the ball back for what seems to be a layup, but decides he doesn't like the odds. So he throws it in the corner to Gary Payton II. Then he scoots all the way around to the corner. Payton sees him, flips it back to him, sets a screen for him, and Curry hits a three.

And it was like, all these things are happening in this play where it's like, all right, Curry's made three different cuts in the same play. He's playing with somebody in the corner who understands exactly who he is. Like, if that goes to Kelly Oubre, either he's shooting it or he's forgetting to set the pick. Peyton understands like, oh, I'm going to set one. They're always thinking like, how can we free up Steph? How can we free up Steph? Steph's always thinking, I'm cutting, I'm cutting, I'm cutting, I'm cutting, I'm moving here, I'm moving here. And then everybody starts doing that. And they're getting back cuts all the time. And this team they built where all, if Otto Porter plays well, they seem kind of unbeatable. I don't remember a LeBron team like that, where you just have all these different dudes

who seem to just be playing kind of above their skis. Maybe the closest was that 2013 Miami team, but LeBron was still so great that year. But they had Ray Allen that year and there were role players that stepped up and that really did feel like a true, that was the one time it really felt like a true everybody chipping in, playing above their skis team. But the Warriors have that this year. Yeah, I think LeBron generally gets a

lot out of role players and he always has historically in his career. I just don't know that he's necessarily gotten a lot out of the ones that win consistently. The Warriors just have so much balance where the way that they create threes for Curry doesn't really take away from their defense. Whereas LeBron, we shouldn't know who Boobie Gibson is, right?

Right. There's a ton of guys like that. I think Mario Chalmers probably got some extra years because of him too. There's been some spot-up shooters that have really benefited from playing alongside LeBron, but a lot of those guys are also just not necessarily going to be the top-line defenders that the players... I think the Warriors just found this amazing system

that has balance, right? I think balance is something that on a LeBron team, you might actually struggle to strike because, well, he has these strange... Some of these things are strange. I get why you want to have veteransBron team, you might, you might actually struggle to strike because, well, he has these strange, like he has, some of these things are strange. I get why, you know, you want to have veterans on your team, but like, let's, let's face it. He has, he has some interesting opinions about who he should be playing basketball with. And it hasn't always borne out like the way that, the way that he would want it to.

But I think that is like exactly why it becomes a conversation though, because like you just see what a player like curry or a player like you know you look at yokich even who just doesn't need to touch the ball that much um but still passes incredibly well spaces the floor incredibly well can do for everybody else uh especially like just the warriors culture deserves a lot of credit for that too, right? Like it's just taking the best of somebody's skill and building a system around it. And maybe this is where LeBron has almost punished himself a little bit by moving teams so much. I've never really cared too much about the fact that he moved teams or anything. I never really had an NBA team, so maybe that's part of it.

But he also has not had a coach that he's consistently worked with for the last 10 years who understands like every single tendency that he has, who understands like what system is going to fit him best and like, you know, which players and everything like it's been constant change for LeBron. And it's weird. Like he found the formula, right?

Like he invented the formula, which is now everyone else's formula, like spread, pick and roll with, with, with guys who can drive and kick. And right when the league becomes perfect for that, just runs away from it.

It's so strange. Well, so maybe like his big flaw is that he is over and over again, kind of been the GM of his team in some ways, right? Whereas Curry has always, always defaulted to, I'm just here, I'm on the team, you guys figure it out.

The one time was when they went and got Durant. The thing that I think is different about them, so LeBron has this really, really cool point in 2014, right? He goes to Cleveland. Cleveland has the number one pick in the draft. They have Kyrie. They have Thompson. They still have waiters at this point. They have a young nucleus that they kind of could have built and shaped for the long haul, but at that point, his objective was different. He wanted to win a title for Cleveland

and probably deep down wanted to catch at least Kobe. So you're thinking win now, win now, win now with a lot of the decisions you're making. Whereas the Warriors were in a similar spot this year, right? And they could have been like win now, win now, win now. And they never did it. They never traded all their assets for Bradley Beal because Curry wants to win now. We might lose Curry in two years. They just kind of collected assets and made smart, short-term decisions and tried to figure out how to actually build something. Has LeBron ever had that? You think like going back to Cleveland the first time, it was always a race with them. It was always a race of, uh-oh, LeBron might leave. We have to put a contender around him. We've got to get Larry Hughes. We got

to get Ben Wallace. We got to bring in Shaq. We got to bring in Antoine Jamison. It was always constantly trying to make sure LeBron didn't leave. Goes to Miami. They build the short-term nucleus, but it lasts four years. Wade gets hurt. And then he looks at Cleveland and he goes, all right, I can build something there. But within four years, they kind of built that one out too. They didn't have, you know, they didn't have what Curry has a chance to have right now. Yeah. So, I mean, yeah, like, you know,

I think LeBron's never really trusted Cleveland, right? With reason. Well, yeah, completely. Yeah. Completely. Was he like, like the first seven years of his career with the guys that they were getting, was he involved the first seven years of his career with the guys that they were getting?

Was he involved then too? No, it was a lot of we have to win now. The LeBron thing had the 2010 shadow hanging over the last three years he was there. And it was like, we have to put a good team around him or else. And you go back and it's like, it's a series of short-term high-risk moves that then led to another short-term high-risk move.

It reminds me a lot of the Pelicans with Zion right now. It's like, you could have just been really good at the start. And you're probably in a better position right now. Or honestly, the Pelicans with Anthony Davis too, where they could have just said, hey, we have all these picks picks let's take our time and instead they were trying to they're Tyreek Evans and Omer

Ashik and they're trading two first runners for Drew wouldn't the Cavs like not trade J.J. Hickson or something wasn't J.J. Hickson at one point in his career like deemed untradeable for like an all-star or something like Omari or something like that yeah they couldn't get anybody that good for him but I mean even Amari wouldn't make a difference

so yeah I think LeBron had this one point in 2014 where I think he could have shaped a real thing in Cleveland like yeah or he'd be in Miami too right yeah but I know but at that point you had Wade going on the downside super expensive B, Bosch, super expensive. They couldn't add people to that roster. That's why he left. I never bought the whole, I'm coming home to Cleveland. Cause if you go back and you read that thing,

it's like, I'm finishing my career here. It's like, that's not what he was doing. He was going to Cleveland. Cause that was the best chance for him to win the title. You know, they had Kyrie, they had the number one pick,

they had Thompson. Um, but you think like, I think one of the, one of the weird what ifs of his career is I think they 100% take Embiid that year. If Embiid doesn't get hurt in the workouts before the draft, because Embiid was going to be the number one pick. If they took Embiid, I don't think they were going to trade him for Kevin Love. I actually think LeBron would have seen the potential and we got to keep this guy. Then Embiid got hurt. Then they trade for

Kevin Love. That's a pretty big asset to trade for Kevin Love in retrospect. You know, I supported it at the time, but now you look back, you're like, man, that was a good pick. Sure, but it was Andrew Wiggins in like the first five years of his career at the end of the day. But maybe with LeBron,

he becomes Pippen for LeBron. Look at what Wiggins has done with the Warriors. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's true. Him in particular though, it just seemed like he probably needed some time being like the age that he was before he was going to do the stuff he did

with the Warriors. He was the number one pick at the end of the day and just didn't have a lot of scoring potential. I imagine you probably adjust to that in a LeBron situation. But being like, rookies can never really defend. And they can now, actually. That has changed.

Scotty Barnes. Yeah, Scotty Barnes disagrees. Scotty Barnes. Yeah, shout out Scotty Barnes. Wait, we got to talk about, quickly, two other legacy people. Okay. And then we'll go. The Chris Paul thing you mentioned, it is like this hidden subplot of the season where it's like Chris Paul still trying to

win the ring. I don't even think it's like one of the top six subplots of the season that people would mention, but it's still sitting there. And then, you know, the Durant piece of this too. And you're talking about the last 10 years, we've going from 2012 to 2022, basically. So we'll go 11 years. And it's LeBron Curry and Durant are the three most important players in the league. Durant's got one MVP. He's got two titles and that's it. And last year he had this incredible chance. Everything's lined up for him and they get some bad luck, which happens. This year, man, if you watch them against Memphis last night and Nash just said, fuck it, and benched those guys the whole

fourth quarter and the Nets come back, they bring it to 10 and Nash is like, nope, not bringing you guys back in. I'm going to prove a point tonight. Harden's not in shape. He's still not. And a night like last night, they just couldn't match the intensity of Memphis. And I think Milwaukee is the best team in that conference.

Yeah, but look, Kyrie's coming back tomorrow, so it's going to be fine. You had the Kyrie wildcard. No, no, don't worry about it. But it's, it's the Dorian thing's a little like the LeBron thing where it's like, you know, maybe, maybe players shouldn't be GMs. Might be one of my takeaways from the 2021-22 season so far. Maybe they should leave it to the guys who that's their full-time job to think of who should be the players on a team. Yeah, but Giannis was a pretty good GM, though. You think he made the Drew Holiday trade?

I think he pushed. He certainly pushed for a lot of stuff. And maybe it's about that, right? Maybe it's about having more of a partnership than you do like, hey, I'm going to hold this over you guys. Like, hey, obviously there is a situation I want to win and let's make it work. Where it feels like, I don't know, it all works based on the situation.

Like Steph has a better reason to trust his front office than LeBron does. In the early years when he didn't, he just didn't have the power to say anything, right? Like he was just dealing with injuries and being a young player. And then with Giannis, there's like a little bit more. You think Curry, based on the last two years, had 100% reason to trust that front office though? Because you could argue like they took Wiseman over Lomelo. They brought in some of those free agents last year who were bust. Like I was a little

suspicious of the front office and then they came back you know guns blazing this year they definitely made some mistakes um and it seems like you know they had their staff kind of thin out um like chelsea lane is their athletic trainer somebody that people have talked about a lot is as you know i think she's with the hawks now and they, they dealt with all those injuries and that became a conversation too. It feels like they've learned from that. And I think that like, I don't know, it's not necessarily like about the mistakes.

It's probably just how these conversations go. And like, can you sense that somebody can learn from their mistakes, I guess. Cause like this season coming in, the Warriors were just like, you know, we needed,

we needed to add some new, new fresh minds to our coaching staff. And we just felt like things were getting a little bit stagnant. They added Mike Brown. They added a couple of other... They felt like their defense just needed more creativity and stuff. Yeah, Kenny Atkinson. And they're also... I mean, the one thing Kerr was kind of right about that we...

And I did too. Spent the whole season just kind of dogging him about that, that we, and I, I did too, like spent the whole season talk, like just kind of dogging him about, it was just sticking to the same system last year. And now all those guys that didn't really like it, it felt weird that they were all just kind of like in this place of setting screens for, for Curry and diving to the rim.

And it felt like they had too many of the same guy. Like they fell in love with the Draymond green mold. Um, and lo and behold, like, you know, a year later, all those guys now actually know how to copy, like the things that Draymond and Iguodala do. And it definitely matters when Draymond's in the game. But, you know, like Looney knows how to do like that relocate,

like when like Curry will pass to the screener and then relocate immediately. That's clockwork for a lot of those guys now. I think it's just like the track record with the Warriors aside from those moves that they made kind of allows

a player like Curry to say, well, hey, I'm going to stick around. There's also just less pressure I think when you've already won the rings with the team. Like, why go and try to start something new when you know that, like, the best situation probably is here. Like, the other thing is you've got to look around at all the other front

offices, too, and see the decisions that they're making. And then you probably feel like anything the Warriors have done on the curve of the other guys, like, I don't know, it's probably fine. They crushed it. Honestly, they crushed it with the Jordan Poole pick in retrospect.

G-League developed it in general. They added Jama from the Raptors too. They've kind of thought about the stuff that they were bad at. Iguodala thinking he had a year left when all signs said he didn't, and he did. Wiggins, like just kind of

not giving up on that guy. And now I really think he's turned into an asset for them. Just in like Bielitsa, who's bounced around and he went to Miami last year and was an afterthought and they saw something in him.

But just in general, like even they luck out because there were signs that Draymond might be the down arrow was, was pulsating for him offensively. At least he was so bad and such a liability as a shooter that teams were just sick, but they figured out how to use that to his advantage. And now he's had this big comeback season. But last thing before we go on Curry and LeBron, because I think this is important. If you're just talking about the big picture stuff with them, the fact that Curry really did change the way basketball was played

is going to matter if he can start adding some finals and maybe a couple more rings to that LeBron. Because I think LeBron's a better player than Curry. But if you're just talking about career and when we started adding things up, Curry's impact on basketball and being at the forefront of just changing how it's played, right? Literally changing how the sport was played and how young people play it and how he resonates with young people. It's the one thing LeBron doesn't have. LeBron, you know, was the best player in the league for two, for basically a decade and a half and had one of the great careers ever. But you wouldn't say like he changed how basketball was

played. You could, you could say he maybe changed how, what people thought about basketball off the court and player empowerment, things like that. But on the court, he was kind of perfecting things that were already there. Curry actually changed basketball. I think this is where we just don't really give enough credit to LeBron, though, for how much he has changed the NBA. If you look at how basketball is played, not for the Warriors, but for Luka, for the Mavericks, Harden, even KD to some extent,

pretty much any superstar who you just spread the floor for and say, hey, go drive and kick. That wasn't really a way that NBA offenses were really run before LeBron. Like, sure, as a concept of, you know, you would find it in games right and like the pick and roll was run prior to that but that idea that that could a win a championship it didn't even like it was it was so it was so like invincible invisible that it's not something that we even necessarily talk about but like it's it chris paul is actually similar in a way too where he is like the modern master of the pick and roll and everybody learned from him to the point where it looks ubiquitous but it's not like they all started doing this watching those guys right but i do feel like

elusive paul you can you could draw a line to point guards before him, right? And with LeBron, with the drive, I actually think LeBron doesn't get enough credit for the heat and some of the small ball stuff they were doing in the early 2010s. That's a precursor to Draymond, right? Yeah, no question. And that was one of the most interesting things about them. That heat thing, we were so immersed and so day-to-day with it, it was hard to look big picture at it sometimes. But their ability to basically just put athletes out there and not really care about having a center per se and being able to dominate anyway was pretty unusual at the time.

This was the era of Ray Herbert and big guys all over the place. Marc Gasol and the Lakers playing Gasol and buying them together. And the Lakers kind of zagged the other way and it worked. All right, Sarah, we can hear you on the Ringer NBA show on Fridays with Chris every once in a while, right? How often are you on that one? Every week. Yeah. Every week. And then we have you on the ringer.com as well, writing stuff. And you're our Edmonton correspondent in case anything ever happens with the Oilers. Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. Fingers crossed, you know.

All right. This was fun. Good to see you. You too. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you can still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November.

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and The Ringer NBA Show. And we're going to talk about Memphis, but just quickly, Sigrid and I were talking about Curry and LeBron in the last 10 years and that kind of a legacy battle that's brewing. And I made a case that Curry's hitting this Tom Brady 2.0 point of his career

where this long run seems possible, whereas LeBron, it seems like it's really hard to figure out a path where he gets back to the finals. Have you quit on this Lakers team yet? Oh, yeah. Yeah, as a championship contender, yes. But it is insane that we're still having the LeBron doesn't have enough help conversation

because he's been so good that his team is kind of letting him down in a lot of different ways right now. Well, GM LeBron let himself down, I would say. Well, we're all our own worst enemy on some level, you know? If we try to throw our bodies in front of the Westbrook trade and it somehow happened anyway, and now they have no outs. All right, I want to talk about Memphis.

I think we're both fascinated by this team. I watched them last night just completely destroy the Nets. Apologies to Chris Vernon, but I couldn't. He's too immersed. He's on the pregame. We wanted two objective people who don't have a dog in this race talking about the Grizzlies. I thought that Nets game last night was predictable in some ways

because I think the Nets, especially regular season, you can throw a couple punches at them and you can pound the boards on them and you can get a little tough with them and they might, especially because they don't really have the role players. But I thought that was just a classic Memphis game. Destroyed them on the boards. Jaw was unstoppable. They just have waves of dudes. They have the deepest roster in the league. And now they're 24 and 14. They have a huge lead over Dallas for their division. And I think people would say they're probably, along with Cleveland, one of the two surprises, but I'm not that surprised. Their over-under, I think, was like 41. I like them as a playoff team.

I don't think I was willing to consider them a contender. Do you consider them a contender yet? They're maybe not at that level, but it's telling that they have wins at Phoenix, at Golden State, at Utah, now at Brooklyn. Those are meaningful games. And to your point about the Nets and their ability,

or their lack of ability to take punches sometimes, the Grizzlies are a team that doles them out. They are constant pressure throughout the game, high energy. I don't know how many times we've seen this season an opposing team have to go into the locker room at halftime

and juice themselves up to match what the Grizzlies are doing in the first half. They just have that kind of oomph as a team. And that starts with Ja, obviously, but you hit it. It's the depth, it's their cohesion, it's their ability to kind of improvise. And then just like the number of resourceful players that they have. I'm not sure if that's a player development thing or a scouting thing. I mean, what do you think about

that? Are they finding resourceful role players or are they growing resourceful role players there? Yeah, I studied their roster because I knew we would talk about this, whether there was like some Grizzlies culture thing on par with the Heat culture thing. They definitely targeted these dudes in the draft that you could kind of profile in certain ways, I think. Like Bane,

I can't even discuss the selfish piece of the Bane thing, but Bane and Brooks are swimming in whatever swimming pool that is. Yeah. Like those guys are just tough fucking dudes who aren't afraid of anybody, physical.

But see, you know, and even like the Adams trade, Adams, not one of my favorites, but kind of fits in with this Grizzlies team, right? He's just physical, tough, and just you go on down the line, it's not a finesse team. You know, and it's not a team, I don't think they were building it with the modern NBA in mind, which is one of the reasons I love this season And just you go on down the line, it's not a finesse team. No. You know, and it's not a team.

I don't think they were building it with the modern NBA in mind, which is one of the reasons I love this season so much. I mean, I love watching the Warriors. I just, I watch way more Warriors than Celtics this season. The Celtics, even though I have them on, I'm monitoring, but I just love watching the Warriors. But the Bulls and the Grizzlies, you know, and the Cavs are these three teams that just kind of zagged. Like the Cavs were like, yeah, fuck it.

Love, Mobley, Allen. We're just going to play them all together. Good luck. Or marketing, love, marketing, Mobley, Allen. The Grizzlies kind of just drifted toward different types of guys than just like, oh, we'll take the 3 and D guy who's available. So to me, it's almost like a zagging roster construction that I'm so interested with the Grizzlies.

Over and over again, they've just kind of zagged and gone after guys that maybe weren't on the radar. Well, and not coincidentally, those teams you mentioned, the Bulls, the Cavs, the Grizzlies, they're all like high pressure defenses. They're all perimeter, get into you, forced turnovers kind of defenses,

more so than, you know, they're going to drop some, they're going to protect the rim, but they want to get into you. And I mean, that's where the Grizzlies win. And that's where the physical aspect of their play that you outlined really comes to bear.

They have that football team controlling the possession game kind of vibe a lot of nights. And then they have this unbelievable athlete in John Morant who I mean, I think he has the best body control of anyone in the NBA. He's able to get through tight spaces. He's able to finish

over people like no one else in the league right now. A really, really singular player who's evolving as a passer, who's evolving and reading the floor. He kind of has the mentality of a fifth or sixth year guy, but he's obviously not that experienced yet. So he's way ahead of the curve in terms of his

learning. Competitive motherfucker. And you think it's very similar to the Cavs. You need luck with this stuff too. Mobley drops to three for the Cavs, which is the all-time godsend. One of the best draft breaks anybody's gotten in the last 25 years.

And then Ja, you think Memphis, oh man, so close to getting Zion. Ugh, one away. And then they end up getting the best guy in the draft. And it's not just that he's the best guy in that draft. He's a competitive motherfucker. Yeah. And I think the whole team feeds

off him. I thought it was really interesting that they won without him. When he was gone, what was he gone? 12 games? But the competitiveness remained. I think one of the things they've done really smartly that I just don't think teams think of enough, and this is one of my frustrations

with the Celtics. I have no idea if Aaron Neesmith's good. I have no idea if Romeo Lankford's good because the way they're used on the team, there's no way for them to succeed. They just run over the corner and watch Tatum and Brown go one-on-one. And if Desmond Bain was on the Celtics, would he be good? I don't know. But Memphis, they do such a good job at empowering their perimeter guys. You watch them. It's like, it's not just Ja every time like Luca. It's not, oh, Ja's going to dribble up again and decide what's happening.

They'll just send Ja to the corner sometimes. And sometimes they'll go set a pick for him. Other times they'll just be in the corner and they'll actually empower Brooks and they'll empower Bain. They'll even empower Kyle Anderson when he's in there. But the ball's always moving. The usage rate's not that high. And it's a very like inclusive team, which I really like. I think the fact that Jha's willing to go to the corner is a big deal. This is, you know, what if Derrick Rose, what if Russell Westbrook was doing that kind of thing

from the very start of their career and was into it, was into cutting, was into movement, wanted to set up those other guys in that particular way. It goes a long way. And then you get performances, as you're saying, from Bain, like we've seen this season, who I mean, he's been unbelievable. Memphis is a team that empowers its role players as you've been laying out, but he's becoming something more than a role player on a lot of these nights.

But then you get in this game against the Nets, for example, Killian Tilly starts on Kevin Durant and they win. You know, Santi Aldama blocks a step back from James Harden and just takes all the air out of whatever run the Nets were hoping to make. So you just get these plays from everybody. Well, what about my guy, Conchar? He's been big for them.

Good shooter, good player. Why not? So this is why I'm a tiny bit dubious on the conversation of them as a playoff team versus a regular season team because they're just really deep. And I think if we've learned anything in the COVID season

that having guys who are good from guy number five to guy number 12 is one of the biggest advantages you can have other than having an awesome player this season. And they could be missing three dudes. And then it's like, all right, we'll bring in Conchar.

What do you make of Triple J? Because to me, he's their... We could go through every playoff team and be like, who's their guy? Like for the Celtics, who aren't a contender, but Robert Williams is kind of like their question mark guy. Like, Oh, if we get something out of him, now my ceiling goes up. And for me, it's triple J who I still don't like the fact that he doesn't rebound. Yeah. But then you look at the Grizzlies, they're one of the best rebounding teams in the

league. That might be the best. I think they're plus five over everybody else. Maybe they don't need him to rebound, but he's just a weird player. He's this kind of 2013 Chris Bosh prototype, but doesn't shoot threes like Chris Bosh did. But yet I kind of like having, I think he knows how to play. He's competitive, but you look at his stats and you kind of watch him and you're like, all right, he just had 12 points and five rebounds again. What is he? He has lost in the flow a lot. And I think this ties into what you're saying about the Grizzlies as a regular season team versus playoff team, because when they've had everybody, there are games where they don't quite know what to do with themselves.

You know, they don't quite know how much is supposed to be job versus Bain versus Dylan Brooks. And Jaron Jackson is the guy who loses out when everybody is healthy. He kind of recedes to the background in a lot of those games, which is weird because coming into this season, it seemed so much like the kind of year where they were going to go as far as he was able to evolve, right? Like if this was going to be a big year for him, they were going to be great.

And if not, maybe they'd be middling. They figured everything else out. They just haven't figured out how to incorporate him consistently enough, especially when you're talking about what are we going to do against the best teams in the playoffs? I think he's a guy who's going to fall into the background on some of those games, but he may fall back into the background so much he comes up with a huge

three in a big spot because the defense kind of forgets about him a little bit. Do you think, what's your ideal crunch time lineup for this team when we get to April and May? Because you would have, I think you have to have Ja and Bain and Brooks all out there. Yeah. Then it becomes a question of, is Adams even out there in crunch time? I guess it would depend on who you're playing. If you're playing a team that maybe doesn't have the big plotting center or whatever, maybe you don't need to play him. Maybe

you can play Triple J. I guess my point is, I think there's scenarios where he's just not out there in fourth quarters for them. Triple J. I mean, it's some combination of Kyle Anderson, Adams and Jaron Jackson. Like two of those guys are going to be out there, I would think, depending on health and matchup and whatnot. But the tricky thing with Adams is like his rebounding is so important to them, not just because Jaron Jackson doesn't rebound, but like Adams is one of those guys who consistently every year when he's on the floor,

his team rebounds so well. It's not just the individual rebounding numbers with him. And when you pair that with these really active perimeter guys and Jaws great at like, you know, storming in to get offensive rebounds

and stuff like that. You almost need that synergy in some of those big spots. And I wonder as so many other teams go small to close games, if there's a tangible benefit to keeping Adams out there and hoping you can cover hoping for the best as far as the matchups go, but try to work that,

that rebound advantage as much as you can. Is this a trade team to you? Because to me it is only because they, they have so many obvious three for ones, four for one. Yeah. Um, and who would you target if you were

them? What is, cause I think it's like a stretch five who can shoot threes or it's some sort of like a way better Thaddeus Young type, small ball four type guy. But who is it and who's on the table? If you're Memphis, do you even want to mess with this? I think you're going to have to mess with it on some level, which is where things get a little scary because right now they're almost too dependent on guys like Dylan Brooks, so much so that his kind of erratic play can be damaging to them when he's just gunning for it,

really putting up lots of shots that can throw them off balance. It's so interesting because I love Dylan Brooks, but he is one of those guys. Oh, absolutely. He's kind of a no, no, yes. But a lot of times a no, no, no. You're like, oh, no. And Bain is a guy who can play bigger roles, smaller roles. He can kind of scale in that way. But I think finding a natural upgrade for Brooks over time is probably the end goal. Finding one of these big wing types some way or another. And maybe you need another year or two of Ja and Jackson to develop together and show

what they can be for a trade candidate on another team to say, you know what, it may be really fun to go play with those guys. They're clearly there in terms of entertainment value and competitive equity in the regular season already. But we'll have to see what other active players think about this situation and if they want to sign up to play there.

Brooks reminds me of Raja in the mid-2000s, sons, earmuffs Raja, where he was so important to what they were doing. And at the same time, he was the one person people kept pointing to where it was like, well, if we can upgrade the Raja spot, but he was still so important to the character of their team and their toughness and everything. And then they finally said, fuck it. And they traded him. But, um, I think with Brooks, it's not a great contract, 12 million a year. I don't think they touch Ja. No.

I don't think they touch Brooks. And I don't think they touch Bain. They do have some really interesting... I mean, they have Zyre Williams. They'll throw in every once in a while, especially during the COVID thing. But all right, this is crazy. But I keep thinking about Sabonis with them. So in the five with Jackson.

Yes. And could they put together a four for one with some Zyre Williams is in it. You know, you put in Tillman in there. You put in some picks. I'm trying to figure out how to do it where I don't have to give up Triple J who's impossible to trade anyway

because he's, you know, one of those whose extension hasn't kicked in guys yet. Yeah. But they probably don't have enough for somebody like him. They might have enough for somebody like Turner. But I do feel like there are guys out there that they could just add. Because I still don't like that last crunch time. What we talked about with the crunch time thing where it it's like, if it's Adams, Triple J, Kyle Anderson, Tillman,

now we're playing Phoenix or Golden State. I don't know if I can roll with that. And I think this team, with the way Ja is playing, I think has to be taken seriously as being at least one move away from being something. Well, they're already a home court team. And whoever they play, they're going to pose

a serious challenge to any of those top three teams in the West. Maybe not be able to beat them right away, but that's when you get into these trade talks where you have to start taking

some of these options pretty seriously. The Sabonis one is interesting because if you're thinking about who would you want to pair with Sabonis that could kind of cover for what he can't do defensively,

Jared Jackson Jr. is a really good place to start. That pairing could make a lot of sense. Offensively, they'd be really tough, really tough to beat the Grizzlies under those circumstances. But I don't think you get out of that trade without giving up someone like Bain, for example. You'd have to give up a pretty good player

to get someone like Sabonis at this stage. Ja, quickly, and then we'll move on. I tweeted last night that the 2010-11 Derrick Rose, it's like the younger version. People remember the MVP one, and they remember your default in your brain as you move to the Miami playoff series and stuff like that. Regular season Rose for those two years.

And then, you know, then we had the strike short in a year. Then he got hurt in the playoffs. Then all of a sudden it was over. But nobody could stay in front of him, right? And there was a point with the Rose experience where you're watching it

and you're going, wow, this guy has a chance to be really special. Like there's... And the seeds were planted in that self-exposed playoff series in 2009, where it was like on the biggest stage, he kind of rose to the occasion.

So that was good. But just, there was a night to night version of him on league pass where you just go, I don't know how you fucking guard this guy. Ja's feeling like that now. There's, cause either he goes by you

or he kind of half goes by you, you stay with him. And then he's got that crazy herky jerky move where all of a sudden he's doing this long finger roll. So either way, he's beating you off the dribble. And I said last night, I think the only person who could probably stay with him in the league right now is Gary Payton. The second, I don't really see anybody else. Do you? No. I mean, you see him blow by some of the best defenders in the league. And you see when it's a pick and roll and it's a really good perimeter defender and a really good big defender. And he just knifes right between them.

Like he's able to get angles and edges on guys. And what he's able to accomplish after he leaves his feet. I mean, he's going through entire reads and processes up and unders, you know, really elaborate stuff for a player of his experience level. Bouncing off people too. And Rose was like that too, where this ability to bounce off somebody at full speed and just maintain your body control

and then be at a 45 degree angle. But I'm just going to say this and I'm going to knock on wood. He scares me the same way Rose did. Rose was really scary to watch during those two years. Cause he was just going balls to the wall, to the rim over and over again. You're like, that's Jesus.

Like, calm down, dude, you're up 12 with two minutes left. And Jaws, the same thing. Like he's just completely fearless, which is the best thing about him.

But the thing that scares me the most, I do feel like, you know, I don't know, obviously he's an all-star if we're starting to craft what the, uh, all NBA teams look like, which is reasonable to think about now that we're about to hit the halfway point. He missed a bunch of games. So that hurts him. But if we're just looking about who are the best 10, 11, 12 players in the league, he's at least moved on to that list, you know? And I think he's

probably taken some spots. I think you could argue whatever Dame lowered spot was in that top 10, top 11 hierarchy, Ja probably took the spot. Dave's got to get it back. But where do you see him just in the hierarchy now? I think that's about right. Desmond Bain brought this up after last night's game that the question isn't whether he's an all-star or whether he's the best point guard in the NBA, which is a little much for me. But that conversation, you know, it starts with Steph. It's Luka and Trey and CP. And that's kind of Jha's category right now.

Like, I think he's in the mix with guys like Chris Paul, which is an insane place to be for a player at his level. But I think he has a chance for all NBA in part because, I mean, his approval rating is through the roof. Like hits all quadrants in terms of the basketball nerds love him, the real hoopers love him, the former players love him, the highlight-only watch boys love him. The Waits boys love him. I think he could get a lot of votes that way for something like All-NBA because the pool of voters is pretty diverse in terms of where it's drawing from, but everyone loves Ja.

Everyone loves to watch him play and to see what he can do. Well, you think Giannis, KD, Jokic, Curry, I think have four of those spots locked if we're just doing the half-season All-NBA first team. That fifth spot is John because he got hurt. I don't

think he has a clinch on it, but I think he's played as well as anybody else who's eligible for that other guard spot. You'd say Donovan Mitchell would be in there. Chris Paul, 100%. But for the most part, that fifth spot's wide open and I think it's going to be the

subplot of many subplots of the second half of the season. Who is getting that first team all-NBA spot? Because first team all-NBA is a different animal. That's no joke. There's just not a lot of people who have gotten to that level. And I think it's in play for him. I think Chris is the other guy. And let's talk about Chris for a second. With that Phoenix team, which has slid under the radar and everybody's so enchanted with the Warriors. They're right there with them.

They've done a nice job during COVID times. The Jalen Smith thing is the most bizarre subplot of the season. In my opinion, they don't pick up his third year extension, which happens like, what, every eight years? And so they have him on an expiring contract as a second year lottery pick, I guess because Sarver's cheap. I can't think of another reason why he wouldn't pick up the contract. But now he's actually playing for them because of COVID and looks half decent.

Like he's been okay. Um, but they have a little more depth, I think, than they had last year. And more importantly, Chris still looks like Chris. Cause last year it felt like, uh, it's probably the last stand for him. He really summoned one last run. I don't know if that was one last run. I picked them to make the finals again this year, but my concern was what stage of Chris's career are we at? And it seems like he's the same place as last year. What do you see? I see that. I see him being in the same place physically. Sometimes he can actually get to the basket a little more often than he did last year, I think, which is a nice sign for them. But just what he brings out of the other guys, and he's the exact kind of point guard you would want in a season where you're cycling

in all these hardship guys, all these end of the bench guys. Like the Grizzlies have one kind of advantage in their depth and the Suns have depth too, but they also have a point guard who makes sense of whatever kind of depth you can give him. Give him Bismack Biambo off the scrap heap apparently. And you know, he's going to turn in some good minutes. That's just the way this thing is going to go. It's funny.

And I don't know if LeBron's always had this quality as a player of just pulling whatever is inside a player out. And Chris has definitely done that over and over again in his career. It's the spirit of the point guard thing. I thought the Aiton thing would be a bigger issue for them

with not giving them the extension. It does not seem to have submarine him. There's been some weird moments with him, though. He's definitely a little frustrating. I still think they should have signed him just because I value what he does and I think there's so few people who can switch off to a guard

who's his size and not be completely embarrassed. But then you'll watch him sometimes, especially that Christmas Day game is so frustrating where you're just thinking, you're the best matchup they have in this game. You should be destroying everyone on Golden State. And it's like they have to kind of keep reminding him like,

hey dude, five foot jump hook over Looney. It's there every time. What are you doing? What are you seeing from him this year? And where does it go with him? I think that's a great read on him because there are big guys who are, I would say, you know, naturally they push.

They want to attack. They want to show their post stuff. And then there are big guys who needed to be prodded a little bit sometimes. And he seems like he's a little bit in that category. Like sometimes he wants to show what he can do on the perimeter, but in terms of dominating inside, you can see them have to remind him.

You can see them have to kind of direct him to his spots and get him in position. And you saw that in the first matchup between the sons and the warriors were, I mean, he can, he could completely change a playoff series between those two teams. If he's locked in like that,

which I think gives you hope that, you know, if you compress everything down and you narrow the view and it's we're just focusing on the Warriors for two and a half weeks then maybe he is that player every night that you need him to be but when it's regular season and everything's kind of changing as we go between the matchups and the opponents you can see him still get lost in a little bit but I think what what gives you reason for optimism, even in that, just what his size gives you, even when he's not totally locked in, is still super valuable.

The fact that he's that agile and that big and has that kind of touch, there's always going to be moments in the game where he comes up for you, even if he's not totally on top of everything he needs to be doing. You don't think they would trade him this next two months, do you? I would be shocked.

Yeah, I would too. But I, there are trades out there that if they don't feel comfortable giving him a max and there's something about him that's holding them off and Chris has to be part of this, right? I'm not accusing Chris of anything, but Chris is with them. They're going to trust Chris. They're going to go to Chris and be like,

hey, should we pay eight in the max? Like, what do you think? If Chris was like super, you know, oh my God, what are you guys talking about? Of course you should. Like the way he would if they asked him about Devin Booker. I just wonder what they see day in, day out that made them worried to make that kind of commitment to him.

Because it doesn't add up to me. That's the weird part. If they did move him, it would absolutely belie something really rotten just in the relationship between player and team. Like whatever they thought was irreparable in terms of whatever the the aftermath of the extension was but it doesn't seem like it's on that level again like i'm sure there's frustrations i'm sure he wishes it would have gotten done but he's gonna get paid like he's

gonna get some big time money one way or another like you i i don't really understand why they didn't do it i i'm hesitant only because sarver's cheap and he's been cheap his whole career as an owner, among many other bad qualities. But the Jalen Smith thing is instructive. There is no reason not to exercise a third year option on a guy you took with the 10th pick in the draft 18 months earlier. And for them not to do it is like, you're basically saying that guy is a complete disaster and we don't want him next year. But we've just watched him play basketball.

He's not a complete disaster. And you could have just had him as a $4 million flyer that's inherently in your salary cap. You don't have to go out and pay as a free agent, use some mid-level exemption. He's already on your team. And they like cut costs because they're trying to save

money. And that's why I'm suspicious with this Aiton thing. I don't think they want to pay him. I don't think they want to have four expensive guys. It bridges Paul and Booker. I don't think they're going to pay the fourth guy. I said this when it happened, and I'm still suspicious. And I still wonder, as crazy as it sounds, if that guy's on the table for somebody. Could Indiana get him? Could they get him for Miles Turner and Duarte? What kind of trades are out there? And who's thinking aggressively about it

and looking at Phoenix and going, that team's in complete disarray and they don't want to pay these guys. Let's go. Maybe there's a window for us to try to get Aiton. It's interesting that that's kind of where the new gut check moment is for a lot of these ownership groups is, are you willing to pay four or five starters, 20 plus million a year each to be a championship level team? It's like three and a half, right? It's like three max,

almost max guys. And then that fourth guy who's between 22 and 25. Well, it certainly makes you have to swallow hard on it when the guy who's making the most money is making 45 to 50 million now. These are real, when you add up these salary totals, it's a daunting thing, but that's the business you bought into.

That's the point of being an NBA owner is that you're gonna have a chance to compete for what the Suns are competing for. So I'm with you. It is fourth year option on a guy who has seen serious time. Okay, that's a different conversation. Third year option on a guy you drafted? Inexplicable.

Over Haliburton. Yeah. It doesn't make any sense at all. And the idea that, as you were saying, you're not only giving up the chance that he could be good in those first four years, but the chance to resign him at a discount because you own his bird rights. There's a lot of flexibility that just having a player

like that, having their rights would give you. He's not the be-all end-all of their contending chance by any means, but I think you're right. It's symptomatic of something. Well, I think he's somebody they should trade over the next two months. And if you're a team that acquires him and you're under the cap, you could immediately just give him an extension and use that year's money, right? They have that weird deal. OKC took advantage of it a couple times.

Oh, yeah. I guess. I'm not even sure. You could just do the deal and pay them more. I forget how that works, but it is something you do. I don't think Phoenix, the team they have now, I think they're one guy short. Because I think the Warriors, when Klay comes back,

that's going to be a really hard bar to climb. That's tough. Where do you see the deficiency for the Suns? The Jay Crowder piece worries me. He's having a bad year. And it's one of those things where you look at him and you go, well, he's been there before. He's been in a lot of big games and he has, but he's just having a shitty year and he's really important for them. And he's really

important with their flexibility and their ability to go small ball, big ball, um, to his understanding defensively, his backup ability of bridges gets in foul trouble against any defender that they need to, or any offensive player that they need to stop. And I just don't love the way he's playing. The fact that, you know, Biambo is in the mix a little bit for them.

I know it's COVID. I'll never trust campaign after he completely disappeared in the, in the finals where it's just, it was just a goner. But you're skipping over the fact where, or the thing that campaign helped them get to the NBA finals. I get it.

He does not completely have my trust. But yeah, it feels like they're... And by the way, it could be a buyout guy. It might not have to be a trade guy. But it does seem like they could use Jalen Smith. What do you think they're missing? I think that's probably it. Ideally, you would want someone

in that kind of flex-for type role who could be there for you when the coin flip of the Jay Crowder experience comes up tails again and again and again, which is going to happen. It does happen. He has seasons of this sometimes. So if this is that kind of season, you need an alternative. That's where it kind of hurts that they're missing Dario Saric for the year. I know he's not the be-all end-all himself, but that would have been a nice insurance policy. Does he come back for the playoffs or is he completely gone? I mean, we'll have to see. I think it was an ACL that's been keeping him out. So we'll have to see kind of where he is. Oh yeah, you're right. He's out. Yeah, my bad.

I thought they had a chance to get him back. Well, we didn't mention Cam Johnson. So if he, you know, maybe that's the seesaw of it where if Cam Johnson can rise up, maybe it doesn't matter as much as Jay Crowder, but I just, the way Crowder's playing makes me nervous for them because I do think he's a hard guy to keep off the court. He's such like a forceful personality, you know, and he's one of their guys. And it's one of those things where you have to kind of, you trust him, you ride with him, you hope he turns it around, but he might not. I also, I have real concerns about Chris holding up for the whole season and four playoff rounds again, because, you know, that

last year was such a, I mean, did you see Sean Grandy, who is the radio guy for the Celtics? And he has great stats. He keeps all these cool numbers with the Celtics. And he had this thing Celtics by calendar year, what their record was. Right. So the calendar year of actually like their record in 2020, 21, not the season in each C each calendar year is like 81, 82 games, 83 games, whatever. And this last year, 2021, it was like 103 games that the Celtics played just in 2021. And I was thinking like, all right, for Chris, that's got to be even more than that because they played all four playoff rounds, right? So it's just a lot of miles to put on that guy. And I know he's in awesome shape, but teams are really physical with him. They chip him constantly. And I think the book is out, like just pound and push him.

The foul rule, you know, went against him a little bit too. So I guess for me, the number one thing for them is like, can we just keep him running on all cylinders till June? Seems ambitious. I mean, the story with him is so often the same, which is he comes to a team,

he brings them an incredible level of execution and sophistication to what they do. And at the end often the same, which is he comes to a team, he brings them an incredible level of execution and sophistication to what they do. And at the end of the playoffs, he ends up pretty nicked up and maybe out of the lineup entirely. And they were able to power through that with their depth and with everything they had built last year at the Suns. But it's a hard thing when you're looking

at matching up with some of these other top teams in the West this year. It's not very forgiving. It's not very forgiving to, you know, Chris Paul has to miss a game or miss the start of a series or is just kind of worn down, as you're saying, from getting beaten physically by his matchups over and over.

The physicality of those things is going to be tough, especially when, as a player, he leans into that. Like, he wants to bump you back. And I think sometimes that ends up taking a toll on him too. And with all that said, God damn, they came close to winning the finals last year. I was like, those games were on a couple months ago.

If they win game five, they probably win the finals. Yeah. And game five comes down to Booker spinning in traffic and in the paint, and Holiday just making an incredible play and throwing an iconic alley-oop to Giannis. Flips that game, then they pull off six,

which was also a war. But man, I think it would have been really hard to beat them in Phoenix in a seven. And they were so close. That's a really weird series. I'm interested to look back at that series like 10 years from now and watch those games again

and be like, eh, we're sure the right team won. I think the right team did because they had the best player. But if you're Phoenix, you're like, we were really close last year. Now we have to deal with this weird Warriors thing

that's basically doing all the things we do but at a higher level at a more efficient level with more depth it's even scarier right now where Steph is shooting really poorly and the Warriors are still beating everybody you know it's remarkable what they've been able to manage under

those circumstances with like one really good offensive player right now who's just not on top of it but they still win it's funny watching them. Teams are defending Curry like he's a wide receiver at the line of scrimmage and they're just putting two cornerbacks on him and just annihilating him as soon as the ball snapped. He takes so much off the ball, hand check, punt, shoves, all this stuff. And he's always putting his hands up now. So the refs can kind of see what's happening with him. But man, I've never seen, hey, can you imagine like if, if, uh, LeBron or Michael Jordan was getting annihilated off the ball, like Steph

does, there's no way that would happen. We didn't get to talk about the bucks. So give me your, uh, one minute bucks take. Cause I think, I think we both see it the same way that that's still the team to beat in the East by far. With that said, we were texting about it yesterday and then they do an all-time stink bomb at home against the fucking Pistons. But it just seems to me like a little championship blues sometimes with them. I'm not worried about their core.

What do you think? No, and I think the core is the key part of that. Because when Giannis and Drew Holiday and Chris Middleton play, Pistons game excluded, clearly, they dominate. They win almost all those games. They dominate those minutes

with those three guys on the floor. The question is going to be, can they plug around the edges? Can they make up for the fact that Brooke Lopez is out just for the foreseeable future at this point? But I think they're better acclimated to handle that than, for example,

the Nets, who their bigs have quietly been a total mess this point. But I think they're better acclimated to handle that than, for example, the Nets, who their bigs have quietly been a total mess this season. Not quietly. Now loudly. But when the Bucs don't have Brooke Lopez, Giannis just plays more center. Bobby Porter steps in. Has it been filling good minutes for them? Boogie Cousins has been giving

them some spot minutes. But I think they have playoff answers, even if Brooke isn't there. So long as they have those three guys. They just are a great, great team when they have them on the floor to the point that even when we're talking about as good as the Bulls have been, what the Nets could be when they get Kyrie back in whatever

part-time situation he's going to be in, I think the Bucs are just really formidable and have been poised this season in a way that is a continuation of what they built over the playoffs. They're also, to me, the number one candidate for a buyout guy. Sure.

If I'm the buyout guy and I'm looking at the landscape and I'm thinking, all right, two goals. I want to win the title and I want to play. Yep. If I go to Brooklyn,

am I winning the title? Do I have enough with that bizarre Brooklyn soap opera of a team? I go to Milwaukee. Let's take Thad Young, for instance, because I think Thad Young will be a really intriguing buyout guy for a lot of teams. you have. He's been in some games. Not really playing that much with San Antonio. And if I'm him and I'm looking at the landscape, would you go to Milwaukee or Phoenix if you were him? I mean, you're speaking right to my heart making this a Thad Young podcast.

I wasn't expecting it, but I appreciate it. I'm sorry to give you more warning. If I were him, I mean, I think the Phoenix situation is pretty nice for him but as we're saying there's some entrenched pieces in terms of Jay and Cam Johnson who

I mean he'll make you a believer if you watch Cam Johnson on the right night really good player I think the situation is probably a little more open in Milwaukee and some of that is like are you really worried about Jordan Wara stealing your minutes are you really worried that like in the right situation and we decide to play a little bigger that they're going to play Grayson Allen over you or Dante DiVincenzo over you?

Like these are all good players. But if you're a proven veteran, a guy like a sad young, a guy who's shown that he can be something for high level teams, I think you could look at that three, four kind of flexible option in Milwaukee and say, I could plug in there. I could be a real piece for them. And that team absolutely could win the championship. The other one is Dragic, who, if I'm him, I'm going to Cleveland. I have a chance to really...

Cleveland might be something if they could just figure out those point guard minutes. You know, the Rubio thing. And he wasn't even shooting that well lately, but he was so important to them with, you know, the playmaking and just the calmness, how he clicked with love, all of these different things. And I'm really protective of that team, though. I love Mobley.

I mean, Mobley's like my guy. But yeah, Dragic, I thought, would be a fun one. But I think there's going to be some good buyout guys this year. Because the league's really deep. You go through every roster. Even you watched the Pistons last night. Pistons are supposed to be one of the three worst teams in the league or four worst teams in the league.

And you watch them and you're like, oh, that guy's pretty good. I like that guy. He's good. They have like six guys. I don't mind. As opposed to other years. You're not buying into a future Dallas Maverick

Goran Dragic. I don't. I think that team is you're drawn with a pair of threes of that team. And they just need I mean, honestly, if you're Dallas and we'll end on this, you're probably better off

not doing that well this year. Get a decent lottery pick. Don't make any panic trades. Try to build up, not a lottery pick, but a decent draft pick. Try to build up

poor Singas' value a little bit and really hope Luka learned a lesson. You have to come out of this season with Luka looking around the landscape, looking at guys like Giannis, looking at LeBron in year 19, looking at how hard Curry works on his game, looking at Jokic, who has not only gotten in much

better shape, but has really made himself a defensive asset. Luka has to look at that and be like, all right, I'm not doing something right now. I'm as talented as these guys and these guys work harder than me. What do I have to do? And I want to read the ESPN, the magazine feature about Luca when he hired this diet guy and he hired this personal trainer and he put a crowd chamber in his bedroom and all this shit.

Until I read that, I'm not going to believe in Dallas. This has to be a soul searching season for them and for him. That has to be the primary takeaway from it, is we are figuring out who we are, what kind of players we need to put around Luka, what Luka needs to do in terms of his habits. And to bring it full circle with the Grizzlies,

Memphis has figured something out this season in terms of how to sustain. The teams like Dallas just have not. Teams like Portland, and to some extent, Denver's been hit by injuries. Their situation is a little different. Even the Clippers. All these teams have risen and fallen. They've had a hard time stabilizing. The Grizzlies haven't

done that. The Mavericks are in that group where their problem is not the games where Luka didn't play. They were pretty good in those games in a way that makes you look at the other ones and say, what is wrong? What is wrong in this mix here, in this combination of skill and player in terms of like all the pieces fitting together? Because it's just not right right now.

And is he fun to play with? Which the answer seems to be a lot of times, no, especially if he's not going to guard anybody. Yeah, the Grizzlies, what a situation for them. They have a franchise guy. They have a really good identity and they have the most ways to improve their team of just about anyone in the league other than maybe Golden State. Like if they really wanted to make a run, they could, or they could just ride this out and be fun. Anyway,

you're in the Ringer NBA show tomorrow? I am. All right. We'll hear you there. Good to see you. Good to see you as always. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, Bill. All right, J. Kyle Maness here from The Ringer. He makes cool videos for us. He's on The Ringer NBA show. What's that pot? What do we call that?

Upside High? You and Charks? Upside High. I always envisioned like a lame 90s high school TV show where Charks and I are like buddies that like basketball. Doesn't it kind of sound like that? Like a Saved by the Bell type thing? It's a Saved by the Bell spinoff where A.C. Slater's now playing basketball

and you guys are like the team managers trying to build the team. Yeah, I would have watched that. We're going to talk about Jabari Smith really quickly because it's an important subplot. I think we went into this college season, Chet first Palo, here we go. Jabari is kind of the wild card on the side.

You've been doing a big Jabari deep dive. He's certainly fascinating. It does feel like a three-man race. I am about to get into this. I will fully admit the reason we're having you on, I'm letting you talk. I'm not going to pretend I have opinions. I don't really get into college basketball

really until football ends. Now, football is ending later this year, so I'm going to have to, once we get to round two, I'm going to have to do the deep dive. But I have been following the Jabari Smith thing. I don't know what he is, but he's something.

So explain. What are you seeing? He's definitely something. And I think every year we go through this, mainly it's because who has the time, time basically to keep track of all these players that's always the joke i make is like uh well the thing about jabari is and we go through this a lot of a lot of different years you know over the history of the draft where guys will be sort of they'll sort of percolate to the surface and become dominant names going into the NBA draft. And those are the guys that when you're yada-yada-ing the NBA draft, they come up first.

And Chet and Paolo were household names well in advance. I think back about... And Jabari now is sort of creeping up as he physically matures and we see him. And he's that guy on the outside that we're kind of like... What is Brian Dool Murray's character watching the ball? Like, is it going to fall in the hole? Like the end of caddy jackets, but like keeping an eye on where like, is he really a dude? That's kind of what's going on right now. So we come into the college season and Jabari, like the elevator pitch for him is this is a 16 guy. He's the son of an NBA player.

He's sort of like, he's basically basically trivia at this point. He played for the Kings, had some cup of coffees. He's a stretch four, basically, right now. An efficient stretch four, shooting 43% from three on over five attempts per game, showing that he's a pretty versatile shooter.

It's kind of a thing where these guys have been ranked ahead of him for a while, kind of like the way Wendell Carter was ranked ahead of Jaronaron Jackson. And then all of a sudden we were like, oh yeah, I think Jaron Jackson's actually better. That's the process we're going through right now. We're trying to figure out just how good is he? Uh, and that conversation is ongoing, but, uh, that is sort of the pitch of who Jabari is and a lot of questions notwithstanding there. So it's a little reminiscent of the Embiid draft where it was Wiggins and Parker and those were the guys. And then Embiid's kind of the wild card. And then as the year went along and then the workouts happened,

all of a sudden it was like, no, actually Embiid's going to be our number one pick. And then he gets hurt and he ends up falling to three. So Jabari now has officially positioned himself in that Embiid's going to be our number one pick. And then he gets hurt and he ends up falling to three. So Jabari now has officially positioned himself in that Embiid wildcard position. But Tate Frazier of early ringer fame,

he was texting me. He thinks Jabari's the number one pick. What was his argument? We didn't go into it because I had nothing to offer because I haven't seen Jabari yet. Give me the NBA comp for him. Oh man, Sharks and I have been talking about I haven't seen Jabari yet. Give me the NBA comp for him. Oh, man. Charks and I have been talking about this a lot. It's difficult because

at this point, he profiles to me as face-up dominant. He really depends on his face-up game to get his buckets. I don't think that he's as flexible or as elastic as some of those top-end 6'8", 6'9", 6'10", athletes in the NBA.

Like your Paul Georges, your Giannis is obviously the highest example of this best body in the NBA, as has been said. I think that Jabari is a little more of a stiffer-hipped player. So I start thinking of face-up, self-creator shooters. I'm like, like okay like tobias uh i'm like uh i think back to like danny granger like that type of player richard lewis is one that that sharks throughout the the convert the kind of the conversation that we're having now is what are like the star upside uh conversations that jabari is going to be able to answer or not answer before we get to the end of this college season.

I'm not totally sure. It's sort of a... Paolo has really alluring star upside that somebody is going to have a hard time resisting. Because Paolo has Blake Griffin kind of characteristics where you're like, this guy could be the center of an offense. He's a crazy, strong, explosive athlete. He's really wiggly off the, I always say that word,

wiggly off the dribble. He can get by people. He's shown us some pull-up shooting. But Jabari, the certainties with him are, I really expect him to be a great shooter at the NBA level. I think that he's just scratching the surface. So if you think about it, you've got, and I think that he's a really good,

he's going to be a good team defender. It's a question of, is he going to become a great passer? Is he going to become a great ball handler? Things like that. Because if he does do those things and you draft him on the, if you feel really confident about that, yeah, I mean, he is potentially worthy of the number one pick. But the other guys, it's just a back and forth between him

and those other guys at this point. Who said Rashard Lewis? You heard Charks. Charks did that. Yeah. So that was the guy I thought of when I was watching when I was doing my YouTube prep for this pod. My first real dive

into the Japari thing. He seemed like a more athletic Rashard Lewis to me because the outside shot, you know, and Paolo has a nice one too, obviously. But with Jabari, it's really smooth and it looks the same every time. And the result seems to be, it felt Rashard-y to me. But he's more athletic than Rashard was. It's close.

Yeah. Going to the basket, Rashard Lewis was not going to the basket like jabari was in some of those clips that was the one thing that felt a little different to me but yeah so you're a little you're it seems like you're a little worried about his athleticism compared to what we'll see on like twitter dunks and youtube dunks from him i don't know that he's like his bendy i don't know that he has like huge hands I don't like his like in-air ball control isn't really it doesn't really blow me away I was even watching clips of guys like you know how Pascal will take it off the rim and just like it almost looks like he flattens

like a piece of clay like you know like he just he has that bendiness that I don't know that Jabari has that he's more of a he's like very pull up now he what he will do sometimes is he can he can like handle it a little bit in the open court and he'll just pull up for three like he's a really fluid shooter so I think what we're getting into is like you mentioned like the Embiid draft like we have guys that are really alluring I know like Anthony Edwards was another guy like this, but it's hypothetical. It's like how if you're at the top of the draft, you feel this temptation to take these guys

that have these high-end hypotheticals. Paolo is one of those. Chet is another guy that we talked about today on Upside High that people hear. Same kind of thing. If Chet is going to be a dependable shooter and a rim protector and a low-waste player, he probably should go number one.

So this could go a lot of different ways. Yeah, and that's why I wanted to talk about it now, at least to get people thinking about it. So Jabari's college stats don't mean everything, but I do think they're instructive. And Jabari's put up 16 and 7 at Auburn. It's good. I'm not blown away. When Durant was in college, and that's what I think if you're taking a perimeter forward, basically, I need to know there's a chance you could be like a 25 and eight, 25 and nine type of guy,

if you're going by first pick. Durant, when he was in college, was 28 and 12, 28 and 14. Every night was just filling it up. So from that standpoint, wouldn't you say Paolo is at least like for what he's doing in college and how that might translate seems like more reliable. The question with Jabari would be what's the, is the ceiling higher? Because when I watch Paolo, I think his ceiling's pretty high too. I, I, I, I'm at a loss. I don't know what to think, but tell I watch Paolo I think his ceiling's pretty high too I'm at a loss I don't know what to think but tell me your Paolo thoughts

it's the hypotheticals it's like if you take if you take Paolo on the premise that he is going to become it's the thing though too that like neither one of those guys are like high end like playmaking processor like they don't like read the game as fluidly as even i think chet actually has higher like playmaking upside than than either one of

these guys um in paulo i mean he's he just does some things that make your eyes bug but as we watched him over the course of this season what do you how do you weigh you were talking about duran it's like how do we weigh these guys that come in and are just like, I'm the captain of the ship now. This is my team. I'm going to score. I'm going to cut your head off

and crap down your neck type score. Durant is wired that way. Durant, I remember you writing back in the day about Durant. Durant was just like, I'm going to murder you. He has that kind of score. And he was playing center for them.

Paolo is 17-7 for Duke, but I think that's partly because I've watched a couple Duke games. Their guards really dominate what they do offensively. And it always feels like Paolo could score more if they actually got him more involved, but their guards are really good. I get it.

I can't kill him on it, but sometimes he feels like an afterthought for them, which I don't know if that's his fault. Yeah. And Auburn has some of that going on, too. I always joke that Bruce Pearl has, I swear he has a 3D printer at Auburn where he just prints these shooting guards who think they're Dame Lillard. I don't know where he finds these guys year in and year out, but I mean, he's a great coach. But it's like, do we penalize players for efficiently blending into a scheme or do we penalize them for, you know,

or do we penalize them for not taking over? Like, that was the point I was making there. It's like, he's blending in efficiently, which is a good thing. Yeah. It's like, and, you know, Halliburton is a guy that was like really beloved. Lamello is another guy who like blends in, but is really high efficiency. Whereas like Anthony Edwards probably needs to be the focal point to be super productive, needs to be on ball.

So it's like, do you take the swing? That's a- Jalen's like that too in Houston. I wonder like, what is the best case there for him? Same thing. Yeah, it's a similar thing. Whereas with Cade, we opted towards a guy who could blend in and be more of an interchangeable playmaker type.

Of course, Mobley, same kind of thing. Blended in, didn't give you eye-popping counting stats, but he was super, super efficient. Barnes was like that in the sense that and Rosillo was really good on this. He's going to need the ball to succeed. But if he has the ball, he'll be unselfish with it.

But if you're just going to like put him in the corner and do the Celtics Aaron Neesmith routine on him, good luck because he's going to suck. But if you empower him and bring him into it, it'll be great.

So he's kind of a weird hybrid of those two things. It's like you can incorporate Barnes with a player who is ball-dominant, and the result, I think, is an elevated thing. It's like he doesn't need to pound the ball. Now, he did this in high school, and I wanted to stab my eyes out a few times. But he can play in that connective playmaker role. And then if you're a high-level defender and you know your limitations as a score,

that's not a wasteful player. That's a really valuable player, which I don't know if that's the point Ryan was trying to make. But Jabari isn't a wasteful player. So it's like if they see super, super high shooting upside with him, does he become a Paul George type?

I don't really think that. I think that's pretty lofty. I think of him as more as like a great score who's a willing passer and a pretty damn good team defender. I think that's pretty lofty. I think of him as more as a great score, who's a willing passer, and a pretty damn good team defender. I think that his floor as an NBA player is pretty high. I think he's going to be a good player.

Paolo, this is weird, but he reminds me of Glenn Robinson. Paolo does? Yeah, and it's weird. It doesn't make any sense, but there's something about how easy his release is and how it just seems like at any point he could have 40 points. That reminds me of what Robinson was like, at least in college.

And then he had a nice run on the Bucs too, but these natural perimeter scores from like 18 to 20, where if they're open, it's just, you're chasing, but it's too late. He's getting the shot off. And there's some of that with him. The Holmgren piece, this is the one I am fully not prepared to discuss yet. There's some red flags for me.

Eye test wise, his body's just so weird. I can't wrap my head around it. And it reminds me of the Sean Bradley thing. And I think he's better than Sean Bradley. But the Sean Bradley thing, it was weird. It was like, I get it. He's putting up these huge stats. But he's also two years older than everybody else.

And I think guys are going to just go after him, try to dunk on him. He's missing a little bit of athleticism. Chet's more athletic than everybody else. And I think guys are going to just go after him, try to dunk on him. He's missing a little bit of athleticism. Chet's more athletic than he was. But I just look at Chet, he's seven feet, 195 pounds. What's he going to look like when he's 27? Is he going to be 270 pounds? And if he is, how does that change how he plays and moves? And is his body going to break down? Is he going to get hurt? He just makes me really nervous. What's your take on him? That's the difficult thing to predict. And that's something that Charks and I today on our episode talked a lot about that. It's like, I think you have to have a certain scientific background to even predict body type where it's going to go.

I mean, Sean Bradley weirdly got kind of big. I mean, like he ended up, which is a mistake. Well, he ended up like he put on a lot of weight, which if you looked at him when he was younger, it didn't seem like it was possible. But for Chet, that's a question. He's had a lot of like players come at him over the course of his like time that we've gotten to watch him play. I mean, and people have tried to attack how thin he is, but he has ball skills where he doesn't really, when you think of a guy who has ball skills and he's that skinny, you think of like a Poku, uh, one of your favorites. I know you think about somebody getting out over their skis and like, not like a lack of control. It's like Chet knows who he is. He's pretty slow and deliberate in the way that he plays. And he doesn't,

he's not super ball dominant. It's kind of the same thing. He's been insanely efficient in like a limited role because Gonzaga, Charks talks about this in the piece, Gonzaga has a very ball dominant post presence who doesn't pass the ball. So we're predicting again. We're predicting something that we've never

seen before. And how do you do that? I don't know. He has two things that I really like. He, I think, is a good shooter for his size. You could see him in the NBA where he could be weirdly a stretch five. And I think his block shot stuff is the real thing. He's got really good timing and good instincts on it. And I think that'll translate.

The question for me with him, I don't think he has one of those bodies where he should add 60, 70 pounds. And it's a little like the Anthony Davis thing to me, where I think Davis just should have had a certain type of body. I don't know why he put on all the weight muscle that he did. I think it changed how he plays.

And I think the team that gets Chet is going to have to preserve kind of the fluidity that he has now with the skinny, weird gangly body that he has, but he does move okay. And I wouldn't want to add muscle to it because I do think there would be injuries and stuff. This Dr. Bill talking now, but I just think his body's meant to look like that. His body's not meant to be 270 pounds. But he's going to go to a team. They're going to be like, we got to put some weight on Chet. I don't know if I want 270 pound Chet. I think he might just be like, like Garnett never got big like that.

Duncan never got big like that. Some guys are just meant to have thinner frames. So I'll be interested to see how that plays out. What if we get like 230 pound Chet? That'd be interesting. Which will happen. After college, you gain weight. Like you're going to put on 20 to 30. But I'll say this.

It is one of those drafts where it'd be probably the most fun to have the third pick because everyone else is doing the work for you. And you'd be like, I'll just sit here almost like the Evan Mobley situation. Yeah. I'll just sit here and take Evan Mobley. You guys figure it out.

Yeah. And maybe that'll be how, and the third guy, I have a chip on his shoulder, the whole thing. What do you want to see from these three guys the rest of the way? What, what's like the number one thing you're looking for to see who can

separate from who? Uh, I mean, if Jabari grows and shows me playmaking flashes, if he shows me attacking the basket and shows me some creative finishing, that will be a lot of wind in his

sails, a big strong wind in his sails. And I would say for Chet, consistency shooting the ball. I think he's shooting something like 4 for 19 on spot-ups right now. So it's like he's more hypothetical as a shooter than I would like. He like back rims a lot of things. Another thing to mention, too, is that like Chet has a seven foot six wingspan.

He's seven feet tall, but he has very long arms. So he like he can good timing. Yeah. Yeah. He knows who he is for Paolo. Consistency, the same kind of thing. Playmaking is similar challenges to Jabari like he's a more he's a more talented like off the bounce attacker and creator but Paolo Paolo is

like very very talented like his upside is it's just kind of figuring out if he can separate himself from Jabari specifically it's been interesting to watch his stock move because I kind of felt strongly that he was the guy in this draft and even me I was a huge Palo fan I've kind of shifted and started to see him in this different context and be like I'm not so sure about it now um is he going to end up being like a like a Wiggins uh Edwards type where we were like okay well this isn't good this is going to be a long cake to bake basically so uh I'm I'm leaning towards Chet, actually, honestly, right now. But we'll see how that changes

in the next few months. I cannot wait to change my opinion on it at least 27 times. Because all of them, I see the ceiling stuff and there's like legitimate things I like. And then there's other stuff. Like if Jabbar shows that

he could be a Paul Georgie type guy over the next couple months for Auburn, that there's at least a DNA strand is heading that way, then I think that changes the conversation. Because what did Paul George look like during his first year at Long Beach State or Fresno State, wherever the fuck he was? I guarantee his stats are probably relatively similar to Jabari. Before we go, so,

rookie rankings. Fucking loaded right now. Holy shit, what a year. Moby, number one, we don't need to discuss him. Just, God, protect that dude, man. I just love that guy. His teammates love him.

I love watching him. I think he's 100% the reason that they're having the success they're having. When you have a guy who's just clearly that Duncan, we talked about this a few weeks ago, the Duncan Garnett, when you just have that on your team, you're just going to win.

If you can have the right type of people around them who are at least decent, you're going to win with that guy. So anyway, he's one. The question is, who's two? Who's two right now for you for who's having the best rookie season? The candidates are Franz Wagner, who just continues to be a delight on a crappy Orlando team, but his ability to create off the dribble and kind of be basketball independent in a way that I don't think any of us expect that I've been really impressed by him. Barnes is just clearly can't wait to see him in a playoff series someday. I think he's headed for the next

whatever. Cunningham showed some flashes. I think he's still not as huge a fan as some others, but then the big upstart right now is Giddy, who had the triple-double recently. And Giddy wins, other than if we're removing Mobley,

Giddy wins the who would be the most fun to play with sweepstakes out of the 2020 rookie draft. I personally, of just who I like the most from this draft, have Giddy now second. Oh, okay. Wow. I do.

Yeah. And I have him 2A, I have Barnes 2B, and I have Wagner 2C. Because I really like Wagner 2, and then I would have Cade 3. Okay. I'm dumbfounded by how much I love Giddy, and I'm so upset that I didn't do more homework on him and that I just have to stop discounting the New Zealand,

Australia stuff. Have you just been outright dismissing it entirely? I've been outright dismissive and that dude, he's, he's going to have a really, really good basketball career and he's going to make a bunch of people better and everybody who plays with them is going to have a really, really good basketball career. And he's going to make a bunch of people better. And everybody who plays with him is going to love it. And that's just who he is.

I'm really, really impressed. What are you seeing? Who do you have for number two? Well, I was going to tack on there, too, that just if the shooting upside is even remotely acceptable, he's going to be a fantastic NBA player. But that's just what it hinges on like he's like physically bullying people way more than i expected than i ever would have thought like he's big he is a big lead guard and and like i've said like a funky tandem there uh but i mean

i've been like going around and like sneakily just swallowing up people's cade stock because people are just kind of like they're they're like you use the word flaccid i always remembered about kate yeah i i just i'm not off of kate like we were talking about ranking like young score playmakers and sharks was like uh he was like i'd remove kate automatically from that if we're talking long term i'm not off the kate thing i don't people are being really quick to do this like i still think that kate is going to be a great player. And I think about the range of his application as a player is still at the top. I haven't really moved at all.

Now, I hold a bunch of the stock, and I don't want to be wrong. That's the other thing about this. But I still really am a big believer in Cade. In terms of right now production, it's hard to argue with what Franz Wagner is doing. He's given on-ball reps. I mean, KOC and I were talking about he's like a brilliant cutter, which imagine him in Golden State.

We won't go there. But the shooting has been more consistent than we ever would have thought. It's ahead of schedule. But yeah, Barnes has been fantastic. I would say I'd probably have his... He could contribute to a winning team like right now.

Franz could. And I think that that's... For a rookie, that's the thing you don't see consistently. He's tougher as a pro than I expected. Yeah. And I've been surprised. Orlando, I don't know if they're just on

not against competition on League Pass, but I feel like I've watched probably a little too much Orlando this season. I actually wish I could pull some of it out of my brain. But you're right.

The Golden State point is such a great what if. And I have Kaminga right underneath those five because I think I'm a huge Kaminga believer. And the thing with Cade, having him fifth right now, at least, I don't even know if that's

an insult to Cade. I just think this was an incredible draft. I really think this is going to be remembered as a significant draft because we didn't mention Duarte. We didn't mention Jalen Green. Um, I really like Herb Jones. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

I've been on from day one. I'm like, who is that guy watching this Pelicans game? Like, who is this guy? Where did he come from? And then looking at the KOC draft guide and I'm like, I just had no idea this guy was going to be an impact swing man right away. But I think it's a really good draft. And I think we'll remember it as like one of the best drafts of the last 15 years.

Yeah, it has lived up to expectations. And yeah, Herb is awesome. Really toolsy. That's the word I always think of. Yeah, toolsy. He helps them. I actually think when they started playing him, they actually became more competitive.

But yeah, Giddy, I would say, if you're talking all NBA upside, who can make an all NBANBA team from this draft? Mobley, definitely. Yeah. I think Giddey would be my second choice. Mobley could make all-defense, too. He could be a defensive player of the year.

Honestly, I would love to see what the odds are on that, honestly. And with Cade, the last thing I'll say about Cade, I won i won't go anymore i'm just saying imagine the worst conceivable scenario for his type of player you have guys that can't make shots you don't have a consistent vertical like threat like a lob threat that you can throw to it'd be like if you were starting a company and you just pick people that like just couldn't execute the tasks that you needed to like that wouldn't riff with you that just didn was wrong. The on-court thing was just not there. I think it's going to get better as we go. But there are

a few guys. To have multiple guys that could make all defensive team or all NBA in one draft is bonkers. It's really good. One thing I love with Cade, I do love that he rebounds. Yeah. And he does. He'll fill the stat sheet,

right? His worst possible game is like 15, five and five, but he'll always be like, at least around there. I just wonder like at that position, is there ever a scenario where he's one of like the top five guys in the league at point,

you know, cause that's the deepest position we have by far. And that's such a, who to climb. Whereas giddy as like a combo guy who the ball can run through him. And you made the key point. If he,

if his shooting goes up a level with how physical he is and how much fun he is to play with and just how many different ways he affects the game.

Also, he's fucking young. I think he just turned 19, right? Yeah, he's a baby. Yeah, I think he's one of the youngest guys in this draft. So anyway, I'd have to give you a second. All right. Upside high, he's a baby. Yeah, I think he's one of the youngest guys in this draft.

So anyway, I'd have to give you a second. All right. Upside High, you and Sharks. What do we... Every Tuesday? Every other Tuesday? What's the schedule? Every Tuesday.

Yep. Every Tuesday on Ringer NBA Show. Good to see you. Good to see you too. How's Kentucky doing this year, by the way? They're good. They're picking up. We're older than normal.

We got a lot of old guys. So they're playing better earlier in the year. There's not as much malaise as we watch the teenagers struggle to run sets and things like that. It's been fun.

All right. Good luck with you. What's your next video? I got a thing on ball movement coming out. It's been sort of taking a long time, but it's coming soon.

Cool. All right. Good to see you. You too. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Sirit. Thanks to Rob. Thanks to Kyle. Thanks to Kyle Creighton as always for producing. I will see you on Thursday on The Speed. I don't have.