The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Desperate Knicks, UFC 276, Plus Kyrie’s Failed Lakers Play with Van Lathan, Big Wos, Ariel Helwani and Alan Yang

Episode Date: June 29, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Van Lathan and Wosny Lambre to discuss Jalen Brunson likely heading to the Knicks, how the Mavericks can cope, and “new media” vs. “old media” (1:50). Then, Bill talks with Ariel Helwani about the current state of the WWE, UFC 276, and more (44:58). Finally, Bill talks with writer-producer and lifelong Lakers fan Alan Yang about hoping for Kyrie Irving to join the Lakers before he opted in with the Nets, expectations for the Lakers’ 2022-23 season, Alan’s new show 'Loot' on Apple TV+, and more (1:20:54). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Van Lathan, Wosny Lambre, Ariel Helwani, and Alan Yang Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We did Project X, Dave Jacoby's favorite movie, an absolutely insane movie, and the most recent example, the One Big Party movie, which we covered in detail on that podcast. It was me, Jacoby, Craig Horlbeck. Check it out. On this podcast, me and Van Lathan and Big Waz

talked about all the latest basketball stuff. Jalen Brunson, Kyrie, Draymond feuding with Perk, et cetera, et cetera. And then Ariel Hawane came on because we talked a little wrestling and then we also talked about UFC 276, our new gimmick. He has to sell me on why I need to get the pay-per-view. And then last but not least,

our friend Alan Yang, diehard Laker fan. He's going to talk about how they hit rock bottom. He has a great excuse for Jeannie Buss, and that'll make the Laker fans feel better. And we talked about his new show with Maya Rudolph. It's called Loot. So that is all coming up next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this part of the podcast.

It is 4.30 Pacific time. Just taped a rewatch of us with Van Lathan and Big Waz, and we decided to keep the mics going and talk a little hoops. There's some stuff happening. Kyrie's going back to the Nets. We'll talk about that in a second. This Jalen Brunson thing, which seems like it was an inside job.

The Knicks are getting him. Russell and I joked about how this was, my friend Mark Stein was calling it the Brunson sweepstakes. It feels like with only two suitors, that's not a sweepstakes. But the Knicks, this has been a year-long plan,

I guess, to get Jalen Brunson, who has this whole history with World Wide West and Leon Rose. And it just seems like this was preordained. And now it seems like Dallas is pretty resigned to losing him. Waz, what does this do to the Knicks fan base? What if this number is like five years,

$125 million, $130 130 million how do you sell this to the next fans maybe the sell is that eventually they'll be the first ones up in the next disgruntled superstar sweepstake right like that's that's what your idea is like all right we could package some of our young guys for the next disgruntled superstar, plus some picks, and we'll be like a really good team, like a la Dallas. They got a superstar. Jalen Brunson was a secondary part,

secondary ball player. Maybe we'll be the next Dallas. I don't know. I'm spitballing here, Bill, because... So basically, you use the cap space, you get Brunson, who you know isn't a number one or number two, but it might be a number three. And then eventually,

and then you still have some assets. Yeah. Top end, uh, quickly. If you want to get crazy, throw RJ in there, which I think would be a mistake,

but they're not going to do that. That's what I'm saying. Like maybe their thing is like, eventually we'll get the second star to come or their cell is that we've drafted so well. Our young guys are going to develop in such a way that they're going to be great players next year. But to me, these CAA dudes came in, and the whole sell job was,

you know, we're just so close to stars. Right. We know how to talk to these guys. You will have signed is Jalen Brunson, who, with all due respect, is a good NBA player. I think he's an above average starting point guard. He is nobody's star. And so this is the, like, all the chips in the table.

We've marshaled all our resources in order to get in position to bring in Jalen Brunson. Well, I don't know how you get excited about this. And some flexibility for the next thing. So now I'm going backwards. I'm like, who are my keepers? Right? Brunson now, I'm assuming they get him.

Barrett. RJ. RJ Barrett. So there's two good ones. Yeah. Right? And I think two guys that could play together. I still like Toppin.

I'm a Toppin fan as well. Toppin will be around. I think some of the younger guys, some of the younger guards they have, I think could be like rotation guys for a good team. When the handcuffs got taken off Toppin towards the end of the year, he showed surprise. And the same with Quick. Although, Quickly had his moments where he wasn't as, you know,

as far along in his development as we would have liked. But again, these things don't happen. Like, people think these things happen in a, like, linear fashion. Like, year one, then year two, then year three. Like, there's ups and downs. Like, sometimes guys take steps backwards. But I still like quickly. Here's the real issue with New York to me.

I look at teams that, I look at the two teams in the finals this past year, right? They both have tremendous cultures, right? And part of the culture of both teams was patience. People talked about the Celtics. The Celtics have been knocking on the proverbial door for a long time. And they went through a bunch of different iterations of what should the Celtics do to the Celtics,

break it all up. She sells to try to go get Anthony Davis. She's a Celtics do this. There was Isaiah said, the Celtics try to go get Anthony Davis. She said, the Celtics do this. There was Isaiah Thomas era. There was a Kyrie Irvin era. There was an era where- Kyrie Hayward era. Kyrie Hayward era, right?

So there was a- Kemba era. Yeah, Kemba era. All of these different things, but the Celtics, their culture and their willingness to try to find out who they are as a basketball team and which version of this team was going to succeed really won out. Same thing with Golden State.

Golden State had this core, an aging core. They're spending tons of money on this core, of course. So not everybody can do that. But they, rather than panic at the first sign that maybe things were coming to an end, they stayed the course. Because the Knicks have zero culture, they don't have anything to be patient for. They can't, at this point, wait to see what they have with Barrett. They can't wait to see if they can put together another decent year like they had last year or the year before last, I guess. They don't have any clue what it is that they're doing. So now the Knicks- Well, and then you have the pressure of the front office is worried,

like, it's year three for us. Could we get fired if this doesn't work? and that's because there's no North Star and the reality is now with this, Jalen Brunson is a good player.

I like Jalen Brunson a lot more than a lot of people do, right? I'm like a nine out of 10 about how much I like Jalen Brunson. I loved it, but to me, they're just doing shit.

You know what I mean? That like, and it becomes a situation. There was this whole phase that the Lakers went through to where the Lakers were out there trying to get Carmelo Anthony. Couldn't get Carmelo Anthony. Hey, Jeremy Lin. Everybody's like, what the fuck are you talking about?

They were trying to get different players, and they couldn't get them. They would strike out. They struck out with Dwight Howard, strike out free agent after free agent after free agent. And because they didn't know what they were doing or what they wanted to do it was nothing that was making their basketball team

and their franchise and their culture better and so now to me with the Jalen Brunson thing he's a good player but what is this building towards like what kind of team are you trying to put together we don't know because they don't talk to the press they don't tell anyone all they have to do is come out and say,

all we want to do is just add assets that work hard, talented guys. We don't think we're going to win the title this year, but we're stockpiling assets. Jalen Brunson is an asset. This guy played in the conference finals last year. He was the second best player on that team. He's a good basketball player. Perfect player for Dallasallas if you ask me

yeah i think you guys are on to something when it comes to like what van is saying like there's no credibility that or equity that's been built in this management group and because the knicks have had such a horrible management track record going back literally 20 years. 20? No, we're going to like 99. Yeah, exactly. So over 20 years. Like they had a brief interim of Donnie Walsh doing a fantastic job.

And then they got him up out of town. And it's just been terrible management. So it's like you got this group group who treats the press like they just don't do anything. Any media. I actually think that it's been a mistake. Of course it's a mistake. I'm all for the low profile. We don't need to hear from these guys that much. We don't need you to be Mark

Cuban. But you need, every once in a while, people need to hear from you and you owe that to your fans. I think that's been a mistake. Especially since, like you said said there's a lack of credibility right it's like if you take your car to a have they have something in baton rouge called a shady tree mechanic you know shade tree mechanic the guy who like you need your brake pass put on you don't feel like going to play it's like the dude will say hey man i put your brake

pass on five dollars pack of Newport Slims. You know what I mean? All you got to do is buy the brake pads. Now when you take your car to that guy, you want to know a couple of things about him before he fucks with your car, right? Like, hey man, how do you take the brake pads off? Like, what you do? You know what I mean? Like, tell me, what's your process? You know?

And so... And the guy said, I'm not telling you. Right? You know what I'm saying? If you're, if you're right you know i'm saying if you're if you're if somebody's like if you're if you're on shaky ground with someone you want to hear a plan yeah so for me and i by the way the the thing i love about it the most is when they hired to dad the reason why i love that is because i'm from sec country yeah so i love it when there's some kind of big recruit,

and then all of a sudden, their cousin gets hired on staff. Oh, yeah. But this seems like 10-and-a-stuff. I've never seen that in the pros in any sport. That's the thing. But again, it's worth mentioning here on the pod. Rick Brunson, Jalen Brunson's dad, who's now an assistant coach for the Knicks, was at Tibbs' last two stops as an assistant coach. Was Leon Rose, the Knicks president of basketball ops, was his first ever client.

And he got that client because he was so close with World Wide West, who now works with the Knicks. So Rick Brunson's on the staff. I told Waz, this is like if Joe House's son was a star podcaster and became a free agent. It's like, gee, I wonder where he's going. That's exactly what it is. So the family ties and all of that

makes sense. And I think another thing that needs to be said, too, is the Knicks' moves in a vacuum aren't bad moves. Signing Jalen Brunson to a little bit more than starter, starting point guard level money, which would be like 25 million per, it's not a bad move.

Moving that 11 pick, getting off of that for three future picks, three future firsts are not bad moves. It's just when this administration that nobody knows anything about. And of course, again, they came in on this.

We're the big dogs. We're the agents to the stars. We know the stars. The stars love us. And that's the only thing they sold people on when they came in. And they've just literally not talked since. They've literally delivered no stars yet. You understand the angst.

Like, I do anyway. Well, then there's the other piece of this. Like is a huge loss for dallas oh yeah yeah for sure because that team i didn't feel like was that far away and one move you know you get like i think gordon draga just gonna go there it seems like he's wanted to play with luca for a while those guys are countrymen yeah um and i thought they were gonna add him keep brun Brunson. Yeah. They added Christian Wood. They had some salary cap stuff that in February, maybe they go get some bigger piece.

But I just, I never thought Brunson was actually going to leave, even though all the tea leaves were pointing to like, this is an inside job. The Knicks are getting this guy. And now it seems like he's going to leave.

And, you know, this pushes the Luka timetable back. This is now year five for him. That's the thing there, right? The thing there is you're not getting nearly to the point yet, but you're getting to a spot where you're trying to figure out what kind. Luka is obviously the type of talent to me that you build around to win an NBA championship, an MVP level talent, right?

Yes. But you need to figure out what kind of team that's on, right? Which they started to figure out last year. They did. It's shooters, it's flexible wings. Right, and remember when Carlisle and the rest of the Brain Trust finally figured out what type of team Dirk needed to win a championship, right?

You combine some veteran point guard play with a rim protector like tyson chandler then you have deshaun stevenson who some kind of way found out how to be a very valuable player for them he was reliable for a year you know what i mean and then um you know obviously jason terry and you you start to kind of figure out like what works and then of course with the historic implosion of the miami that we're not allowed to talk about that anymore right

but they have to kind of figure out but that's why Brenton was so important and I thought they were yeah he brought this

second ball handler that's heat checky guy some pressure off Luka the secondary ball handling stuff is really key because we talk about

Luka's stamina and a lot of it is the guys breaking down at the end of games because he is in charge of all of these possessions. And I thought Dallas kind of took off when they let Jalen Brunson and other guys, even Dinwiddie at times, sort of wrest control of the offense so that it wasn't so Luka-dependent all game long against the best defenses in the sport.

Right. And so I think they do need some secondary creation around Luka, especially 82 game season. Like it's at least in the regular season, there has to be a more even distribution of the usage. And this hurts that if Jalen Brunson is going to go sign a mega deal with the Dix, which is increasingly seeming like is going to be the case. And if they can't even get a sign and trade out of it, like let us help you and we'll do that. We'll do it this way. Can we at least get the trade exception back?

Pretty rare for a team that made the conference finals that has a young superstar like this to then lose somebody who is super important. It doesn't usually happen. From the Knicks standpoint, I guess this paves the way for, they still have Randle. They can somehow rehab that in some way so that he seems like a trade asset again. And then they're going to have to pick Randle or Toppin at some point over the next eight months, I think.

You can't have both. They don't make sense together. I mean, Toppin has to play. Right. That's the thing. If Toppin has to play, you got to get rid of Randall at that point. And so this is the thing with,

to me, with all sports, right? Is like, there's always so much value in the unknown ceiling of somebody. We have seen the absolute best version of Julius Randall, and that's not a bad basketball player. Two years ago. That's a, we have seen the absolute best version of Julius Randle. And that's not a bad basketball player. Two years ago.

We have seen the absolute best version. He was great. And he was, to me, he had a phenomenal season. He did. He did. He was legitimately all NBA type of guy. So could you rebuild that? Could you just say last year, we don't know what happened to him off the court.

Did he just have a fucked up year? Can you... You have a better chance of doing that than trying to make somebody a star. Or is he a guy who's not playing for 100 mil anymore? You know, like... This is that part of it. Like, he got his deal. Yeah, that is true. You know, I did

what I had to do the year before they extended me. You mean like Aaron Judge right now? You know what? You know what? Like, you know, I know that that happens. But I do think that there was something about that year. There was a great energy around the Knicks. There weren't very many expectations.

Year one Tibbs. There weren't very many expectations. Not a lot of stories about year five Tibbs. Because he grinds guys like sandpaper. I think he might have already gotten to Randall. And so, I mean, in that case, like, you know, what is it that you do? I like Toppin a lot. I think he can be a versatile player.

I like him too. I'd like to see him on a team that just plays freely. Yeah. He can run the court. Somebody that looks for him. You got to run, play with some spacing, let him attack the rim vertically. But look, I don't want to sound too down on the Brunson thing.

I think the team is going to be, it's not going to be a terrible team. It's an asset that they didn't have. Yeah, for sure. Hyper competitive East, bro. I mean, the bummer for them is that They're going to be in the 11th seed again. The bummer for them is the East is really

good. They had this chance a year ago to create all this cap space. They still could have been looming in that KD Kyrie thing. Maybe you don't even want to be looming in that. In the word that well, I mean, not with Kyrie, but that KD wouldn't.

Maybe. That he wouldn't play for New York, that he wouldn't go play for New York. Probably not. Who knows? You just seem like that's such a weird move to, you spurn them and now you're like, ah, second thought. Okay. What about the now years old Zion chatter?

Oh, God. Come on. Zion is begging for his extension already. Yeah, I think New Orleans likes that down. All that tough talk about, oh, we would just take the qualifying offer. Blah, blah, blah. And you ain't played a whole year. You think people are going to be lined up to hand you a five-year guaranteed deal, fool?

So all of that tough talk is done. He's staying in New Orleans. Plus, they won a couple of playoff games. It's so funny how a couple of playoff games can change the narrative. By the way, to the Luka thing, have you seen Luka lately? I saw the biceps. I've been monitoring. You've been doing this?

I've been monitoring. He's coming into this best shape of his life. You think he stopped drinking the sweet tea? Hold on for a second. Hold on for a second. Cut out the Chick-fil-A? If Luka can kick the sweet tea. Look, I'm telling you guys, there's a better version of Luka.

We're with you. We've talked about this. This is a recurring topic. Yeah, we're with you. Luka getting in shape is the ultimate way to unlock his ultimate potential. Here's the thing. When Luka cares as much as Giannis has the last five years about what his body and his endurance is and all that stuff.

Insane. Right? That's a big thing. One thing happened yesterday. There was like, what, four hours there where it seemed like all of a sudden the nets were blown up. Kyrie was going somewhere and KD was going to get traded.

KD's shaky. I went on my friend. Yeah. Oh, they're showing us the Luka. Yeah, he looks pretty good. But look, are we showing us not like internet trickeration?

We just saw a Luka picture. Look at the face though. Like he's lean, bro. Yeah. His shoulders are popping out. I'm telling you are popping out Looking good I'm telling you man Looking good

So there's this three hour stretch And it seems like There might be a trade And in Boston Scalabrini Who I like But he had thrown out On one of the TV stations

About Jalen Brown And three number one picks For the thing And then Jalen liked the tweet Saying why would we trade Jalen Brown? And it sent me in a tailspin.

Kevin Durant? Well, here's the thing. This is where I stand. Wow. Don't laugh. Don't laugh because I really feel strong about this. I know you're going to laugh. God damn it, you are going to laugh.

Let's hear it. I just want to root. We came within two wins of the finals. Yeah. Of winning the finals yeah of winning the finals I like the Jays together yeah I think Jalen Brown

if I was him and we went as far as we went and I fought my ass off for 24 playoff games and in game six Tatum's dead and you were better

than Jalen in the in the finals yeah Jason J Jason excuse me and I was like wow I'm in trade rumors yeah like if I was like, wow, I'm in trade rumors?

Yeah. Like, if I was running the Celtics, I swear I would come out and I would just say, you know what? We're not trading these guys. I don't want to see these guys in rumors. Yeah. I don't want stories. Yeah.

You can't. We are building around these two guys. These are our guys. And that's it. So stop putting them in stuff because we're really close to winning the title. Like we have the 10.6 million free agent exception or the 6.5.

We have a huge trade exception. And the Celts were pretty close last year. So it's like, oh, cool. Now I get Kevin Durant, who's probably going to be unhappy the moment we get him. They were up five with like six minutes to go, about to go up 3-1.

Yeah. They're cults. Kevin Durant, who's in year 16, and now it's like I have to gut my future. I'm just out on the chasing title strategy. I like building shit. I think that's where the NBA is going. What are you talking about?

You're out on chasing titles? You like building? I mean, look at what the Celtics have. Why do I have to chase this and do like what all these other dumbasses are doing? Just look at what Brooklyn has had. Yeah. What have they gotten out of the Kyrie and KD and DeAndre Jordan? So I'll be the foil here.

We're talking about two wholly different scenarios, right? We're talking about taking... Remember, we talked about it earlier, right? Kevin Durant worked just fine in Golden State. Do you know why? Because of stability. Again. Now, in that situation, he worked just fine.

By the way, Kevin Durant has worked just fine pretty much wherever he's gone. I'm a huge Kevin Durant fan, as you know. I know. I just don't think the Celtics need to trade Jalen Brown and four first-round picks for him. It's not about need. It's about if it was available to you. I asked you via group. I just feel like

it's a soul-selling thing. I asked you via group text, what did the Celtics need to get themselves over the hump? And what was your answer? I said we needed a wing scorer off the bench. Okay. What about maybe the best wing scorer in the history of the game?

What about the easiest wing? What about the easiest wing scorer? I'm pro continuity. I feel like that Warriors title, the fact that they won, I guarantee, Steve Kerr, if you got him drunk and you're like, which one meant the most,

he would say 22. Yeah, of course. And what it meant to Steph and what it meant, how hard those guys fought for it. Let me tell you the way I look at it. This is the way I look at it. If I were the Celtics

and there was an opportunity to bring Kevin Durant in, the reason why I would be stoked on it is because this is in no way a slight to Jalen Brown, who is a player I have an immense amount of respect for in all facets of his life

and game. I think he's great. At some point with the Celtics, the Celtics are going to go as far as the ceiling of Jason Tatum is going to allow them to go. To me, I think it's actually a net positive to have Jason Tatum and Kevin Durant together for a little while.

I think it's a net positive. You don't think so? Now we're doing the KD, Jalen Brown, trade segment. No, no, no. I think it's a net positive to have Jason Tatum and him together. And I think it's a net positive to have Jason Tatum and him together. And I think it also, it greases things for Jason Tatum to really take the team over when he has to take an eventual.

Can I just watch my two guys? Yeah, the problem with that is like for me, I think the world of KD, but like this is this is the same cat who's, like, cast his lot with Kyrie Irving. Yeah. Like, I just. What does that have to do with this man? Just his mindset about. He lets Steph Curry play with Kyrie Irving. It bothers me.

And I don't want to bring that mindset into my organization. Everybody has a weird friend. Y'all all got a weird friend. Yeah. Not to that extent. Bill knows. You don't let your friends mess up your money though

everybody everybody everybody has everybody has a weird friend everybody has that friend hey just leave him alone he with me that's fair

everybody has a weird friend now I will say at a certain point and I do wonder and Kyrie is weird at a certain point I do wonder what's the limit is there a limit

like is there a limit but look you know I just wonder like with karma with sports and shit like that like the Celtics traded for Kyrie remember and one of the people they put in that deal is Isaiah Thomas who got hurt in the playoffs going you know pushing his body too far cost the man a hundred million dollars

cost him the money and all that and then they're like cool hey we need your salary for this trade and the karma shit from that

I just I never felt great about just in general like sometimes it's fine like this team is a contender I don't feel

I don't feel the need to be like oh how can we add... If they sucked, if they lost in round two, I get it. But this team really built something. Especially, we just beat KD. We just beat them up.

We just beat this team 4-0 in the playoffs. Also, he's in year 16 next year? What am I training for? Why am I so thirsty to bring this dude into my building when I just watched this beat him up? I'm giving a press conference and I'm saying, we love these guys. I don't want to see any more trade rumors with them.

We are not trading either of them. I think that would go a long way because I think little stuff like this, it gets filed away with these guys. Now Jalen comes home. He's in Atlanta and they're like yo man what's up with you you getting traded for KD and

and it's just and then guess what happens when he's a free agent Jalen's an interesting guess what happens when he's a free agent he starts looking around yeah he's like

yeah these guys I was in trade rumors for five years now I'm gonna leave I think the most one of the most important things that we've created for human beings

is like I think the most important thing about being a human being is security. Yes. Like, security is what people, like, want, right? You want to feel secure in whatever situation you're in. It's an incredible important thing about being a human being. And especially for a team, I would feel insulted if I were Jalen Brown.

But at the same time, you know, it's like, he understands. It's Kevin Durant. I don't think he 100% understands. I don't think when you got, when you get that close to winning the title, and your arrow's pointing up, and it's great, like, I don't want to hear anything about one of my futures. Alright, taking a quick break.

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Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers,

host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. One other thing I want to talk to you guys about. This new media, old media thing, which I've been sitting out. I'm more amused by it than anything. First of all, if you're going to do new media, you got to start with Jalen Rose, right? Like 2006. Yeah, sure. He's on Best Damn Sports Show. He's got his own podcast. Lots of people have had podcasts, things like that. I don't know why it's gotten so confrontational. Where the acrimony is coming from?

Yeah, because you even see with Kyrie where he does this thing recently where he's like, you're all making money off my name. So are we not allowed to talk about athletes anymore? What's going on? Are we not allowed to... Isn't part of the whole infrastructure of sports, not just watching the games, talking about the games,, talking about the games.

Creating content about the games. It's all part of the same beast. So I'll tell you what and who people are talking about. And this is not meant for me to be incendiary. I have very little feelings towards any of this. People are talking about Skip Bayless. And so the reason why I'll say this is this. Of course, you're allowed to talk about things. You is is this they're of course you're allowed to talk

about things you're allowed to talk about things you're allowed to talk about athletes you can give opinions on athletes you can do all that stuff Skip Bayless um and to a degree Stephen A Smith but less so Skip Bayless created uh this culture of relentlessly harping on someone or something for entertainment purposes he might have not created it but he certainly branded it over years and years and years no matter what happens for the sake of eyeballs clicks views and entertainment yeah and after a while if you are a player i could see how you would feel used like if you're lebron like if you're if you're lebron james who is skip bayless is very uh public foil right yeah and you go out and you and you give you 35 10 and and and 12 you come back and

you and you win or whatever skip Skip Bayless, let me tell you what LeBron James did wrong last night. Let me tell you. I would understand how someone would then feel. You know what? You're not even making a good faith attempt to talk about sports, to debate sports, to analyze sports.

What you are doing now is using the fact that I am a very popular person, my name and my persona, to build up your own career. That's something very specific. And I think sometimes athletes get it confused that other people are doing that when they just happen to have criticisms about them. But when they are criticizing that brand of it, I think the criticism is incredibly valid. I just don't think that's always what's happening, right?

I think they look at that. Well, now you're in the screenshot era where people can grab out little quotes or whatever and then blow that up. And it seems like you've removed context and nuance. Right. And so for me, I don't think that there's anything wrong with saying,

hey, this part of it is a little toxic. And to be honest with you- But we've known that this whole time, though, haven't we. And to be honest with you, but we've known that this whole time, but to be honest with you, that part of it is only getting bigger. Like the sports shows went, it went from being, I usually wake up in the morning and watch edge NFL matchup.

You ever watch that show? And all they would do is sit down and break down places. I want it to be a more knowledgeable sports. Yeah. At some point, really around the time that first take took off, it became two guys sitting across from each other yelling about stuff. The embrace debate era. Yeah. And then in order to do that and to keep the eyeballs coming, you had to kind of start dissing these guys.

And look, I don't have any problem with dissing people if you want to diss them. Just don't get mad if you get dissed back. I never understood the Skip Bayless, Jalen Rose thing. I never did. The reason why is because, and if you guys don't remember what happened between Skip Bayless and Jalen Rose, go look at it. The only thing I never understood about that was all Jalen Rose did to Skip Bayless was what Skip Bayless does every day.

And when it got done to him, he acted like somebody killed his dog. And so when I look at this now, I do think J. Mon Green crossed the line by calling Kendrick Perkins a coon. Yeah, that's incendiary. Worst thing that you can call a black man. Kendrick Perkins hadn't even done anything nearabouts to deserve that. But I do think that if we're going gonna have a conversation about like what's okay to talk about or how you should how you should talk about something that there have to be some sort of decorum if we're all trying to get smarter if we're just trying to say hey no matter what this

guy does he sucks skip bayless and other people they be getting on my nerves with that shit and i can give a fuck less about any of this because everybody doesn't because everybody is a bunch of millionaires so i can give a fuck less about any of it but everybody is a bunch of millionaires. So I can give a fuck less about any of it, but it gets on my nerves just to see somebody take somebody else's persona and use it as a pinata for years and years and years and years. That's aggravating. It's weird.

Rob Markman Yeah, I think there's that part of it where like normally when these guys are talking about the quote unquote media, they're talking about the dudes on tv they're talking about the dudes on the morning shows on fox and espn the dudes not only the dudes on tv but the dudes who everybody in their life are actually watching those shows like that's what the people around them watched it to like to be honest they get texted about it yeah like the people the people that are hitting up these athletes did not listen to me, Verrier, and Mahoney pod on Wednesdays on the Riggers NBA podcast network. They're just watching first take. They're watching the Fox shows, right?

So that's the one. And I think athletes are very conscious of in the sports media complex, the athletes are the most important people. They're conscious of their importance in the equation and they look at it like, yo, I'm the most important part here. Who are these dudes to have anything to say? And I think another thing that they just fundamentally misunderstand the job. They don't understand what the job of a media person is to do and that's just fundamentally misunderstand the job. Like, they don't understand what the job of a media person is to do, and that's just to inform the fans. Like, give

the fans good information, good analysis. That's it. Inform and entertain. That's it. That's it. All of this stuff about your ego and like, well, we be going through stuff. It's like, alright, you could say, like, there's context behind a guy's performance or whatever, and maybe your dog like, all right, like you could say like there's context behind a guy's performance

or whatever and maybe your dog died and that's why you performed that. Whatever. A media person's job is to just say like if you went 4 of 18, that's a bad game.

And here's how maybe you can use all the adjectives you want to describe it. I don't care. You know what I'm saying? You know what I mean? I just think a lot of these guys just don't understand

that like the job is to just inform and entertain and they think that the job is to kiss their ass. Well, and also criticize Glenn Warren said like Kyrie. Yes. Like Kyrie, Kyrie from the moment the Cleveland thing fell apart, when he went to Boston and he tried to put himself in a position as a leader, he tried to take that responsibility.

And then he was a terrible leader. Sucked. And then the Brooklyn thing happened and we're in the same spot. And it's like, if you don't think you should be criticized about that so i don't know what to tell you so of course my thing is like don't craft a narrative criticize what's happening those are two different things yeah so t.o i used to like this nickname right t.o was team obliterated that's what what he's called, right? That's what Skip is to call him. T.O.'s my man, but if you looked at his career, you could say, ah, maybe that's true, right? But T.O.'s a good example, by the way,

because now he, because time has passed and people forget, I think now people would say, oh, he's one of the five best receivers ever. And I'm like, man, that guy destroyed multiple teams. He's still undoubtedly one of the five best receivers. Well, I'm just, but you have to factor in the, how many unhappy trails he left behind him, I think matters historically.

And so this is what I would say about that. So if you look at that and you say, hey, maybe there's something to that, right? My question is, what happens when he doesn't obliterate? What happens when he goes to Cincinnati and at his age plays out of his mind, right? And has an incredible season. Nothing like that.

What about, like, don't latch on to the worst parts of who you feel like somebody is just because you know somebody wants to hear that. None of these guys need their ass. We couldn't possibly kiss any of these guys's asses more than they get their asses kissed already we can't kiss their asses anymore we can't we can't we couldn't possibly kiss their asses anymore just like don't use and this goes for anybody look I worked at TMZ I saw this head first I had celebrities that you would never in a million years think that would give two fucks about what a website said about them. Hit me up and be like, yo man, could you tell them to use a different picture? You know what I'm saying? And so like, they're people. So yo man, could you just please

tell them to use a different, just don't, it's all good. Just don't, don't use that picture, man. I look crazy on that picture. So all I'm saying is that there's responsibility on both sides of this. And I think it's unfair for either side, whether it be old media or new media, to shirk the responsibility. Can we not call? I don't like the old media or the new media. It's just media. First of all, how is JJ Redick in the new media? He's retired.

He's one of us now. By the way, JJ has been this good for a while now. It's not like this is a new thing that he's good. Richard Jefferson's been doing media for five years. There's no new to this. KD's had a podcast for two years. To me, it almost feels like, it feels like dream on watched some NWO documentary about when Kevin Hall and Scott Nash went to WCW.

And he's like, I'm going to do that with the media. And I'm going to spray paint new media on the window. Bro, you have a job at TNT. What are we talking about? There's nothing new about what he's doing. And I'm appreciative of what Draymond's doing as a player. Like, from the go-out and podcast after having a horrible game and losing.

He's got a great podcast. Like, I'm happy he's doing that. But, like, the idea that you can do the job of informing people and offering analysis without ever, ever saying anything that can be construed as negative is just ridiculous. ridiculous okay so let's go back to the conversation like because people don't remember there was a whole week-long salvo

at ESPN I think you were there at this time Bill where they were bringing in different people to talk about name calling to professional athletes they literally did this on first take four because remember we talked about it was this when Richard went on? I think this is when I got suspended. Okay, so the Richard Sherman thing was a different time. Richard, what did you... I was so horrified by what was happening on First Take,

I tweeted about it, and then they suspended me from Twitter for a week. And I was like, can I have the opinion that this is horrible? I guess not. So, you know,

you go on there, and it's dark. It's not. So, you know, you go on there, it's dark. It's not like it's not funny, bro. It's West Brick, it's Bosch Spice, it's Prince James, it's Tiago Splitter. It's all of these things, right?

Yeah. Okay, cool. If the guy wants to go on Twitter and say, fuck you, don't you have to let him say, fuck you? Of course. Because it's like, okay, cool. You think I'm playing soft.

Bosh Spice. I think that's what we're talking about. So when people see J.J. Reddick, who clearly knows more about basketball than Stephen A. Smith, and why wouldn't he? He played professional basketball for like, what, 16, 17 years? And he actually does the homework. Yeah. So why wouldn't he? When people see that, what they see is they go, and by the way, professional basketball for like what 16 17 and he actually does the homework yeah so like like so

so so why wouldn't he people when people see that what they see is they go and by the way as far as he knows more about professional basketball the x's and o's ins and outs of it but as far as basketball culture steven a smith might know just as much if not more because he's covered that for a long time but when people see him get the business some people like it they like it because what they what i think for me personally i just want to get smarter in life now i'm growing weary of anything that gets in the way of that so to me okay west brick is it might be funny to some people and obviously putting together a highlight table you've seen those tapes on tv of course you see those it might be funny to some people, and obviously putting together a highlight table, you've seen those tapes on Twitter.

Of course. You've seen those tapes. That might be funny to some people. But seriously, I want to know right now, what about Russell Westbrook's game isn't translating to this age? Like, why is he not having success with the Westbrook? Well, and he also can't play defense.

Right. So I want to know, what about West, I like the videos and the content to where it's like this is what Russell Westbrook used to be. This is what happens now. Is there a different team dynamic in Los Angeles? I know the answer to all of these questions. Yeah. When I seek out information,

is there a different team dynamic that's causing Russell Westbrook? What's the reason? Because when I'm in front of somebody First, he's just calling him Westbrook. He's just saying Westbrook, he can't shoot. Got you. Duh! But put him in a situation... Is there something else going on

there that shows why the Lakers cannot succeed with him? This is not how it works on TV. This is not. That's not the TV product. That's why I like YouTube. Because I could spend one hour watching somebody analyze the same set over and over and over again.

That's not who these dudes are talking about. They're literally only talking about the TV product. And they're talking about the most prominent people. They're talking about Stephen A's, the Skips, and all the people. But all they're doing is giving them more attention. That's the part I don't understand. I just think it's just like,

what are you crying about? It's become professional wrestling. Bruh. And there's just certain people I just don't want to hear from. I just don't want to hear from Tyree. It's like, let's go to Dream on Green.

He's with Gene Okerlund. I have a friend, a rapper named Glasses Malone. And Glasses talks about it all the time. Shout out to Glasses. Glasses was like, bro, all these guys are doing is cutting promos, bro. Right.

He was like, in rap, they're cutting promos. In sports, he was like, I see people every day looking at the camera and talking shit about somebody else. Well, then you have the retired NBA players. They're like the retired wrestlers. Right. Where it's like, all of a sudden, Gilbert Arenas is taking shots at whoever who also hasn't played in 20 years. It's like, what's going on? New media.

New media, Bill. Look, I would say it's just the media. Yeah, it is just the media. Like anything else, I don't think every single player offers the exact same thing. For instance, Draymond's analysis is different from Perkins' analysis, which is different from JJ, which is different from Gilbert, which is different from Richard Jefferson, which is different from, you know, go on and on and on down the line. And I don't think players have a monopoly on being interesting about the game

or having some great insight or any of that stuff, man. Like, I just think they're being overly sensitive in public. That's just my opinion of it. And maybe I'm a biased member of the media. So, you know, you can take, take that for what it's worth. But like, I really do think the guys are just being overly sensitive and, you know, that temporary like ping of like owning somebody on twitter like that feels good but it's not based on anything substantive i don't think it's like when van goes in his

twitter replies and gets mad at the ringer verse comments for like five minutes and then i have to text van you have to stop looking at your replies you're allowed you're allowed to have opinions on marvel movies that don't right don't chat with everybody else but you know what the thing is people get and I love the ringer version doing so well and I love it so much but people will say

people will say stuff and they'll connect it to stuff that has nothing to do with anything like Van didn't like that episode you can tell he didn't have a good relationship with his mother what the fuck? I'm like, what? Like, what? Like, for example, I talked about this on Higher Learning.

I don't know how you felt about it. The Drake album dropped, right? Yeah. The Drake album dropped. Did you like the Drake album, Waz? I do. Okay, you like the Drake album? Yeah. Cool. I thought the Drake album was cool. Right? Some cool vibes. Some different shit. Like, shout out

Ben Simmons. Like, I thought the Drake album was cool. A bunch of people weren't trying to hear that shit. Yeah. Do you know the criticism to the people that wasn't trying to hear that shit was like, oh, you broke. Like, you don't like the Drake album. That's because you never go nowhere.

Yeah, that's because you don't get women. You don't get women. This is for music. This is music for people who travel on spaceships with Kardashians, and that's just not you. I'm like, yo, can you get off his dick real quick? You mean to tell me you got to qualify in order to listen,

to decide what kind of rap music you like? This shit is getting out of hand. And so when I look at all of this stuff, the way it relates- That's what will happen if you criticize Kyrie amongst a certain type of people. Uncle Tom. People will say, like, yo, you just saying that because you wanted a sheep that took the vaccine. I'm like, can't we just...

Man, shout out to Kyrie. I appreciate Kyrie so much on so many things. Can we have one disagreement without me working for the new world order? Can we just... Can everybody just be regular? Keep your third eye open, boy. Shout out, Doc.

All right, Van. It up, dog. All right. Van, it was great to see you. Was. It was great to see you. We just talked for three straight hours. I love it. I'm not even tired. Yeah.

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Metrolinks. Alright, our friend Arlo Juani is here. You can hear him on Spotify Live, before and after the biggest MMA events, as well as we run those on the Ringer MMA show. He's also going to make a special appearance on the Ringer gambling show this week as well. You're doing a meetup in Vegas. When is that? When's the meetup? Oh my gosh, Bill. So much to discuss, so much to get to. We're actually doing

three shows this weekend from Vegas. We're doing a meetup Friday night. You want me to give you the whole lineup right off the bat? Yeah, let's do it. Well, we have a big pay-per-view July 2nd. Oh my gosh. UFC 276. We could also talk about the fact that I'm going to be attending not only that, but also Money in the Bank, WWE pay-per-view. They're running same

town, same night. Questionable decision, I think, by WWE. Very questionable. They had to move it. It was Allegiant Stadium, and then they had to move it to MGM Grand, which I do think is the best arena in Vegas, better than T-Mobile.

We can get into that if you want. But we're doing a Thursday special show before the UFC Hall of Fame at 5 p.m. Pacific on Spotify Live. We've been told we're the hottest show on Spotify Live. Yeah, it's great. Alex Cooper, this person, we're bigger than all of them. We built that platform with our hands

off our back. Me, P.T. Carroll, Chuck Mendenhall, we are the number one. We are the kings of Spotify Live. We asked them to change the name from Green Room to Spotify Live and they did it on demand. We're doing a show on Thursday afternoon. Then we're doing a Friday morning weigh-in show live at 9 a.m.

Pacific and then a post-fight show immediately following the main event, UFC 276, Saturday, July 2nd. We'll be doing a post-fight show all live. Then the podcast on the Ringer feed and also Friday night, 7.30 Pacific at the Aria Sportsbook in Vegas meetup for the Ringer MMA crew, the community. It's going to be great. That was a great promo, except I think when you mentioned Alex Cooper, you should have worked in. They should call me daddy. I think that would have helped.

Yeah, that's good. That's good. That's my bad. I'll slide that in another time. Thank you. I'm worried about the WWE for a lot of different reasons, but I was listening to Cheap Heat today and they were talking about how they're kind of at the crossroads in some ways.

And I agree. You know, I think it looks like Brock Lesnar is going to win the title again. I guess that seems like where things might be headed. They lose Cody Rhodes, right, as they're about to build him into probably the biggest baby face in the company. And I just think, you know, it's almost like the NBA. The talent ebbs and flows. And it seems like we're in an ebb right now.

What do you think on the state of WWE before we get to UFC? I think the product is very stale right now. I saw that they brought back Brock. When he came out, I think it was last Friday, I instantly fell asleep. I have no interest in seeing that match one more time. How many times are we going to see

Roman Reigns versus Brock Lesnar? I just saw it. I was there in Texas. WrestleMania, I saw it. It was boring. They built it as the biggest main event in WrestleMania history. I was personally offended by that statement. Not even top 10 biggest main events in WrestleMania history. I know the gate was big. The crowd was big, but there was no interest by that statement. Not even top 10 biggest main events in WrestleMania history. I know the gate was big, the crowd

was big, but there was no interest in that. It's offensive. Austin coming back was bigger. McAfee was bigger, all that stuff. Anyway, I have no interest, but they had to pull the rabbit out of their hat because of all those reasons that you mentioned. I think running, look, Nick Khan is the man. I know

him, president, brilliant mind. I don't understand why he went head-to to head with the biggest night on the UFC calendar. Same town, same night, bigger arena announced their card after the UFC's card. The UFC was going to own that night. They always own July 4th weekend in Las Vegas. At least do it on the Sunday. Right. People stick around. It's July 4th weekend. Now you have a whole weekend. Why would you go head to head? I don't understand it. They go to MGM. The card is lackluster. Yeah. And also, you know what I don't like? Two pay-per-views in one month. And by the way, their next pay-per-view, which is SummerSlam, is going

up against the next UFC pay-per-view. Not the same town, but I don't understand this thing that they're doing where they're going up against UFC pay-per-views. I don't think that's smart for growing the business. Sunday would have been perfect. Sunday would have been perfect. No one's going to work on Monday. I thought when they first announced that they were running that weekend, I was like, oh my God, this is great. Now you're giving people, all the UFC fans will stick around. They'll have fun. They'll let their hair down. Suddenly you have a reason to stay. Then they choose the same time, same place, bigger stadium, bigger

venue with a lesser card. Dumbfounded. You mentioned the Lesnar-Reigns thing. The only thing I can compare it to is when Undertaker and Kane fought like 700 times. And it's just over and over. It's like, oh, once again!

The word! It's like, alright, I've seen this. I don't want to watch this again. And the Cody Rhodes thing was just a death blow for them. It really was. I mean, they were shifting the whole company toward him for the second half of 2022. Not to mention, you know, this Vince stuff, the way that was handled was just bizarre,

where he steps down as CEO. They're going to have this investigation their board of directors are doing. And yet at the same time, he steps down as CEO. They're going to have this investigation. Their board of directors are doing. And yet at the same time, he's comes back as Mr. McMahon. I just don't understand that. It's like,

how do you not talk him out of doing that? Anyway, didn't love that. Also, they lost Randy Orton. Yeah. He's one of their big stars. His back is,

is messed up apparently. Uh, and I couldn't agree more. Like the Cody Rhodes thing back in June was great. He gutted it out, but that's a massive blow. They've invested a lot in him. The thing is, and you alluded to this, like if Brock is really the guy to beat Roman,

what a waste of two years. Like that's not the guy. That's not the guy that you've done all this time. Like you've worked so hard to build Roman into the superstar that he is. And Brock doesn't need that. He doesn't need the belt. I find Brock to be stale at this point. He's over. And can I tell you what's my least

favorite thing in combat sports right now? Like the number one, like when I see this on television, I can't change the channel fast enough. It's Ronda Rousey. I feel like Ronda Rousey is such a dud. And yes, I've had my history with Ronda Rousey. I don't think she's a very kind person. I think the way she handled the end of her MMA career was not the best, to put it mildly. I think she is such a poor performer. So it always feels like she is playing pro wrestler when she is on television. It's really bad. It's really bad. It's reminiscent of when the celebrities would wrestle in like WrestleMania matches. Yes, but she's not a celebrity.

That's the thing. She's supposed to be an actual performer. I've never understood it. I never really thought she had a lot of charisma. I thought the moment she got knocked out in UFC, it's just once she wasn't Tyson. Right. Once that mystique was gone,

she's not that interesting. No. I don't think her interviews are good. No. I don't think she resonates with the crowd. And I don't think they really ever figured out her character. So it's pretty rough. Plus, I mean, I would say this is the most tumultuous point when you think of all the wrestlers that have come and gone

and coming off the pandemic. And Vince is 78 years old. And Steph is gone. Then she's back. Triple H is gone. Now he might be back. Cody Rhodes is here up. Now he's hurt again. This has to be in the running for most tumultuous time in the company really since like the mid nineties, right? Like the 94, 95 range. Right. And you have competition. Like you had a 94 and 95. Right. Yeah. It's a weird time. I'm not going to lie. It's a weird time. I think last summer they were on fire. Cena comes back against Reigns, SummerSlam, Allegiant Stadium. It felt like they were coming out of the pandemic. They had the full crowds and

all this stuff. But as you know, in combat sports and pro wrestling and boxing and MMA, it's all cyclical, right? So in eight months from now, we could be like, remember in the summer when they were a dud and now they're on fire because they got The Rock coming back at WrestleMania. It's all cyclical. It always comes back.

And I'm sure it will in this case, but the reason it reminds me of the mid-90s a little bit is the dip in talent combined with a real competitor. And I thought on that Cheap Hits show, I thought they made a good point about it. AEW is also at a weird point where they have emphasized their wrestling so hard. And the quality of the matches really at the expense of storytelling. And they're basically just trying to have the best matches, which is great. But at some

point, if you want to get bigger than that, you have to figure out how to weave in the better storytelling. Except for MJF. Oh, I love that guy. Who's spectacular. I mean, he's like Roddy Roddy Piper reincarnated. But for the most part, I don't think the storytelling has really been there with them.

I don't think they're that interesting. The matches are great though. It's a little too indie. And also they sign nine people every show. Like how could they, I mean, it's like every show it's like, oh, here's the ex-WWE guy coming out. And then the next segment,

it's another and then another. So I just feel like they've lost some of that sort of touch that they had. But still, I'm very happy that there's another outlet for these guys and gals to make more money, for sure. By the way, that's what killed WCW. They hit the secret sauce.

They had it. They had the recipe. They had the right mix of guys. And then they just kept adding and adding and adding. And at some point, they had too many guys that lost control of the narrative. All right, we're going to play a game that we play. Really, every time there's a big UFC pay-per-view now,

I think this has become tradition. I appreciate it. You know, I don't... We've only done it three times, but I feel like going forward, as long as I have this podcast, anytime there's a big... I want you to come on.

We're a new thing called Ariel Sells Me on the Pay-Per-View. I'm in. Why should I get it? Give me, give me the top four reasons. And I don't know. Do you want to rank them from four to one or what?

Let's go one to four. Give me the biggest reason I have to get this. I have to tell my wife, we're not going out on Saturday night. I have to tell my son, you're fucking watching this with me. What's the number one? He's not into it.

He's not a fan. He's for the big ones, he is. Yeah, I can get him for the big ones. Well, I feel like he would know a lot of these names. Let me just say, the reason why we do this, the reason why it works, the reason why my success rate is so high is because I do believe I am the best promoter in MMA.

I can sell these cards, but if you had, let's say, I don't know, I'll throw a name out, Dana White for a second. I will sell this card to you better than he can sell it to you. He's going to have to read off a piece of paper. I don't. I just want to let you know, this is all off the noggin, off the dome, because I love this so much. I'm mad at Dana. He's at courtside for game

five of the finals in a Celtics jersey, and we got our asses kicked. So he's got to win me over after that. If you're going to take that prime courtside seat and wear the Celtics jersey, come back with a W. Anyway, go ahead. Yeah. Also, don't just show up in June.

All right? Exactly. Where were you in round one? Yeah. Round one. Where were you in November when they were sub 500? Okay. I mean, if Marcus Smart rang his doorbell right now and said, I've got your Uber Eats meal, would he even know who he is?

I question it. All right. Let me just put it that way. Very fair. Very fair. Anyway, number one reason to get UFC 276 is? The most exciting fighter on the UFC roster is headlining the card. That's Israel, the last stylebender. Adesanya, he's the middleweight champion of the world. He is incredible. He dared to be great last year when he moved up to 205. He miscalculated that move. He didn't add enough weight. He lost to Jan Bohovic. And you can say that some of the luster was taken off his aura, but at middleweight, at 185, he is undefeated. He is incredible. He is the second coming of Anderson Silva, if you will. He's flashy. He's

a bit of a hot dog, but he's just such a star. He oozes charisma. You know him, right? You know, you're familiar with him. He is the headliner. And I love when they put a guy like him on this card. So this is International Fight Week. They call this International Fight Week. They do an expo. They have the Hall of Fame on Thursday night. It's the 10th annual. And usually they try to bring, you know, Conor fought Chad Mendes here a few years ago. Anderson Silva-Chel Sunnen happened. The July 4th weekend is kind of like their culmination, right? Their Super Bowl, if you will. So they put Izzy at the top of the bill and he's fighting a guy who's lesser known. I'll give you that. But his name is Jared Cannoneer. He's one of the most hardest hitting middleweights

on the roster. He's the killer gorilla. He entered the UFC, by the way, at heavyweight. Then he went down to 205. Now he's fighting at 185. He's on a bit of a run. He hits very hard. He's tough.

He is not afraid of Izzy. He's not in awe of Izzy, but he has never been in this spot before. He's an underdog. He's never headlined a pay-per-view. Plus 330 on Fayetteville. Which I think is fair. He has never fought for the belt before, but I do get the sense that he is not in awe of Izzy.

Some of these guys, like Marvin Vittori last year, I felt like they lost before the fight even happened. I don't think he's in awe of him. I just don't know if he's as good as Izzy. But to me, anytime Izzy fights, I don't care if he's fighting a broomstick, it's must-see TV. He is one of the best fighters on the planet.

I have him number two pound for pound in the world behind Kamaru Usman, the Nigerian nightmare, who's number one, undefeated at middleweight, Israel Adesanya. He's headlining. That's your number one reason to buy this card. Now, if that- Wait, hold on. On Izzy really quick. Historically, what are we looking at here with him? In terms of all-time greats? Yeah. Is is he tier one is he chance to be in tier one is he Mount Rushmore like where is he on the list he is on the path

to being one of the best middleweights of all time but you can't put him above Anderson Silva now interestingly he beat Anderson Silva two years ago now at this point three years ago but yeah Anderson was past his prime. He wasn't the champ.

This and that. Anderson has all those title defenses, second behind the great Demetrius Johnson. He needs to put in a little more work. He needs to stick around a little more. So number two middleweight ever is in play? Yes, 100%. And he needs to put in a few years before number one. A couple more years. He is

really developing his game. He was a kickboxer. He came over to MMA. But to me, the thing about Izzy is that he has the whole package. He's an incredible interview. He's very fun. He's a showman. His entrances are fun. He dances. He does all this stuff. He's a tremendousman his entrances are fun he dances he does all this stuff he's a tremendous trash talker his youtube is incredible as well the biggest shame is they don't necessarily let him be him uh they make him wear these uniforms we've talked about this before it drives me nuts but he's must see tv he's from new zealand he speaks his mind i love everything about the guy so if our if our listeners wanted to watch one fight that would capture him the best that's on YouTube with him, what would you go with? That's a tough one.

They have 15 minutes. They just want to watch one with him. So in September of 2020, he fought this guy named Paolo Costa in Abu Dhabi. This dude looks like the second coming of the Incredible Hulk, but also looks like a male model. He's just an incredibly good-looking guy, but he's gigantic. He's got muscles on top of muscles. He's like a blown-up version of Rick

the Model Martel, if you get what I'm trying to say. He just doesn't come out with the arrogance. He smoked him. He absolutely smoked him. At the end of the fight, not only did he smoke him, he humped him. And he did it in a very derogatory way.

It was that embarrassing. He finished him as well. And it was a title fight. I would say that one. Also, I would say UFC 243, Melbourne, Australia, October of 2019, 55,000 people in Australia rooting against him.

He fought the then champion Robert Whitaker and smoked him and finished him in the second round. One of the greatest performances as a challenger in a title fight that I've ever seen. Probably second to Conor McGregor beating Eddie Alvarez at UFC 205 when Conor moved up to win the lightweight title. This was up there and it was just amazing. Also, I just want to give a shout out to his fight before that one. He's fighting in Atlanta, Georgia against a guy named Kelvin Gaston for the interim belt. And there's a great scene. They're going into the fifth round. He's all beat up. His face is puffy. The fight was probably tougher than he expected. And the camera catches him saying to himself, I'm ready to die. And like, when you see that, when you see a guy telling himself,

I am ready to die, like that tells you who he is and what's in here. Just a fascinating individual. And, uh, I can't say enough good things about him. Wow. So him getting the July 4th weekend spot, the main event, is that symbolic or is it just a timing because other guys didn't have the fight? Or is that intentional? This is our biggest show. This guy has to be in this spot. It's a little bit of A and a little bit of B. Obviously, Conor's not around. He's always the guy that's going to get the nod first. He was in this spot last year. It was him versus Dustin, right? But I would say, I mean, he is up there. He's top five biggest names in the sport. He's the one that they're

putting on the ESPN banners and whatnot. So it's a little bit of timing, obviously. And there were some other names that were being discussed for this, but no, this is a no brainer. The thing is, Jared isn't the biggest name. So there's not like this heat between them, so to speak. But Izzy did say two years ago, like he thought that Jared Cannoneer was a dark horse in the division and was hoping that he would be able to get to this spot. So he has a tremendous amount of respect for him. And he's even been talking about submitting him,

which would be crazy. I think like Izzy via submission, last I checked was like plus 2000. And he keeps talking about submitting this guy. That would be nuts. I don't know if he pulls it off. I doubt he pulls it off, but still fun nonetheless. Interesting. Okay. All right. Give us your number two. Okay. So if you feel like that fight is a little too one-sided, like there's not enough heat there between the two, I offer you the co-main event. The co-main

event is tremendous. It's absolute great theater. It's Alexander, the great Volkanovski, who is actually Izzy's teammate. So here you have the Australian Volkanovski who trains with the now New Zealander, uh, Israel Adesanya in New Zealand city kickboxing, the small gym in Auckland. They've developed these great fighters. He's the featherweight champion of the world,

and he's on route to being one of the greatest featherweights of all time. I still have him behind Jose Aldo, the legend. Yeah. He's fighting Max Holloway. one of the greatest featherweights of all time. I still have him behind Jose Aldo, the legend. He's fighting Max Holloway. Max Holloway has now entered this category where I think there are certain guys in the UFC who are bigger than the belt in their respective weight class.

Conor doesn't need a title to be as famous as he can be. Nate Diaz doesn't need a title to be as famous. There are certain guys who are just bigger than famous. You know, there are certain guys who are just bigger than the belt. And then there are certain guys who need the belt to get over, right? Max is the type of guy who I think is bigger than the featherweight title.

That being said, he's a former featherweight champion, but this is why this fight is so interesting. He's 0-2 against Volkanovski. They've fought twice before. He lost to him. He lost the belt to him in December of 2019 at T-Mobile's site of the event on Saturday. And then he lost to him again in July of 2020 in Abu Dhabi. Now-Usman card where he took the fight on a week's notice. A bit of a questionable call. And he's now had to work.

He's had to win two fights, work his way back up. And Volkanovski, I think he's gotten better since that second fight. So here's Volkanovski having to defend his title again against Holloway. Holloway in the very rare spot. This rarely happens. You know, it's like the guy's 0-2 against the champion

and he's getting another crack at him. This is do or die. You lose this fight. You're not getting a fourth crack, right? Even if it's controversial, they can't do it again. And so really, really big spot for him. Volkanovski just had a fight in April, smoked the Korean zombie. Like it wasn't even close. It looked like a sparring match. He's done really good. Former rugby player used to weigh 211 pounds, played rugby in Australia, now weighs 145. And not the biggest personality, not an easy type of showman, but has become one of the best fighters on the planet. So my top three, again, like overarching, my top three pound for pound right now, Kamaru Usman, number one, Israel Adesanya, number two, Alex Volkanovsky, number

three. So two of the best three fighters on the planet, regardless of weight class, are fighting on this card. And Holloway is probably number six or seven. And so you have a situation where number three is fighting. That never happens that two guys in the top 10 are fighting for the belt in their respective weight class. So this is a big deal. It's a grudge match. They don't like each other. They've gone back and forth. Oh, there's no love lost. Oh, no. You didn't tell me that. No, sorry. Yes. I buried the lead as they say in the business. Jesus. No love lost. In fact, I had Holloway on my program yesterday and he never says his name. It's a very weird thing. He never actually says Volkanovski. Every time he talks and refers to Volkanovski, he calls him him. It's a very weird thing where I feel like he almost feels like he's

beneath him and he doesn't want to put him over you know give him the rub because Max without the belt is even a bigger star than Volkanovski Volkanovski is the one who has to keep calling him out as a champion it's a weird dynamic but this is the fight that I think could put Volkanovski over give him that shine

get him if he can win decisively they've gone the distance twice and not let this go to the judges this could put volkanovski up there as one of the biggest stars in the sport he's two to one two to one favorite yep ko is plus 380 for him yeah you like that one i like i like it via decision i i just think there's two guys. I mean, they just know each other so well. That's plus 115. Yeah.

Here's the one thing that I'll say. I'll wait for your verdict on Thursday. Max has taken a lot of... Max wins, but he takes a lot of damage when he wins. And he's young. I worry about the amount of damage that he takes. Volkanovski doesn't take a lot of damage. He doesn't get hit a lot. So I'm a little bit worried about that. And I. Volkanovski doesn't take a lot of damage. He doesn't get hit a lot.

So I'm a little bit worried about that. And I think Volkanovski is getting better over time. He's still improving as champion, which is very rare. Max is too young to qualify for my bet against the old fighter who's still getting the respect theory. Serena Williams today. Yeah. Minus 350 or something.

Loses in round one. It's like, oh, Serena can't lose in round one. It's like, something, loses in round one. It's like, oh, Serena can't lose in round one. It's like, nope, this is what happens. In these solo sports, the last couple years are always way rougher than I think we realize. Oh, yeah.

But Max is too young for that, I think. I mean, he's 30, but he's been around for, I mean, he started when he was 18. So he's really 36 in MMA years? 1,000%. Yeah. He's not showing it,

but I think at some point it kind of hits you, right? Does it happen in this fight? I don't know. But even in his last couple of fights where he looked great, he still took a lot. He still absorbed a lot of shots. Yeah. At some point, I think that catches up to you.

All right, give us reason number three. Okay, so I'm going to actually jump around here and I'm going to go further down the card to give you reason number three. There's a guy who is soon, I think a lot of people think, and I think the UFC is banking on this, going to be's multi-color he likes to smoke weed he's just he speaks to you know i'm sure your son knows who he is i'm sure your son is a fan he speaks to that generation he speaks to the younger crowd very smart at marketing himself and he's probably fighting the biggest test of his career thus far a guy named pedro muñoz who has been there done that definitely on the downside of his career so it it's a tough test. Here's the thing with Sean. What I love about him is he doesn't get paid a lot.

He knows he doesn't get paid a lot. And he has been criticized for taking easier matchups. And he actually comes out and says, if they ain't going to pay me to fight tough guys, why would I fight tough guys? If you're going to pay me 50K, I'm going to fight 50K level talent. So, okay. He just got a new contract. Congrats to him, Mazel Tov. Now he's going to move up and fight a guy named Pedro

Munoz. This is the fight where I think you say, all right, get by him. He's a top 12-ish type of guy. Now we can start talking about you fighting these big fights. And maybe this time next year, you're in that conversation where you say you should be, which is among the title contenders at 135. But his fights are never boring. He's a showman. He always delivers. It's unclear right now where he's fighting on the card because Misha Tate was supposed to be on the main card, but it got moved around. Here's a little tidbit for you. The prelims for the first time ever are airing on ABC. How about that? Did you ever think 15 years ago, ABC would be showing UFC prelims? They're airing for the first time on Saturday. So they might want to put them on the prelims to give them the ABC bump. I remember when ESPN was calling it

human cockfighting, basically behind the scenes. Now ABC is going to run it. Now ABC is running it. Amazing. Um, so anyway, yeah, so I, I actually think that they should put him on the ABC prelims because let's be honest more people are going to watch the prelims than the pay-per-view

just by virtue of the fact that it's on you know broadcast television but yeah the Sugar Show is must see and the fact that he is fighting his most accomplished opponent to date

he did fight a guy named Chito Vera back in the day but he hadn't been you know he wasn't as accomplished as he was back then. Anyway, semantics, to me, is very interesting theater. All right. Rush through number four, because then I have a Knicks thing.

Don't look at Twitter. Oh, Jesus Christ. I have some Knicks breaking news. Are you kidding me? Rush through number four, and then we'll do some Knicks breaking news. My heart is pounding now. Yeah. Don't look.

Okay, fine. I thought we were going to lead with the Jalen Brunson era. No, we're going to end with that. Okay, okay. Now you've... Okay. Number four is... Number four is a very interesting

middleweight fight. I love when they do this. So there's a dude named Sean Strickland, Bill, who is just like... Honestly, I don't know how he gets away with it. Former neo-Nazi.

Jesus. Former. Yes. Data would never tell you this part. Former neo-Nazi. Jesus. Former. Yes. Data would never tell you this part. Former neo-Nazi. Guy openly talks about having thoughts and dreams about murdering people. He is just crazy. Wow. But he's a very good fighter, if I can be honest. He's fighting a guy named Alex Pajeda, who in kickboxing, in glory kickboxing, has two wins, including knockout against two, against two, Israel Adesanya. Brazilian, hands of stone, that's what they call him, has two wins in kickboxing, including a knockout over Israel Adesanya. And everyone believes if he could get by Sean Strickland, the crazy Sean Strickland, that they're going to do the grudge match, Izzy versus Bejeda, three, but in MMA. Izzy has said he wants him. Bejeda says he wants him. This fight is on the pay-per-view card. Bejeda is a terrifying man. He is one of

the craziest knockouts that I've ever seen two years ago in a promotion called LFA. If you want to see who could be next for the title, and this is a personal fight for Izzy because he hates when people bring it up, watch that fight on the pay-per-view. Sean Strickland outs Bejeda. And I think... Even odds almost. Even odds, yeah. It's a tough one. Strickland's even to win. The other guy's a little bit higher favorite. Alright, those are four good ones.

Okay, now we're on to the next really quick. What do we got? By the way, Spotify Live. You can hear the... You can hear in your dudes. I'm so nervous right now. Spotify Live. You can hear the, you can hear in your dudes and the whole thing. I'm so nervous right now. Spotify Live.

Ringer MMA. Ringer Gambling Show. We'll have some odds. So the Knicks, they dumped some salary. They traded New Orleans Noel and Alec Burks to the Pistons. Oh.

They've unloaded 19 million more in salary. They sent Detroit a second rounder. And now it seems like Brunson is happening. But maybe even more. Because now they're like, I don't know, over 30 million under the cap. How do you feel about mortgaging in the future for Jalen Brunson? We talked about this earlier in the podcast. I like Jalen Brunson? We talked about this earlier in the podcast. I like Jalen Brunson. I think he's an asset. It's just like after three years,

I thought you would have maybe one star by now. Well, I just want to say I thought they won the draft last week. Don't believe anything anyone tells you. I thought they hit a grand slam. What a zag. It was fantastic. I haven't heard this take yet. This is amazing.

I thought it was fantastic. I thought Leon Rose was wheeling and dealing. It was great stuff. Don't believe. I hate when they go. It's so lazy. Oh, let's go to Stephen A. Crying about that.

No, enough of this crap. All right. There's a bigger picture. Clearly something is happening here and we just need to be a little patient. All right. Let's not forget what happened two years ago at the garden. I'm all in on Brunson. I think he's fantastic. I think he has, you know, I mean, he has tremendous potential. He has not

nearly hit his ceiling. Of course, I remember his father, the great Rick Brunson back in the 90s. Yeah. 12th man of the Knicks days, you know, back then they've recently hired him. So that felt like a sign of things to come. Right. Yes. We haven't had a point guard in God knows how long. Of course, we thought that Kemba was going to be the guy. I don't know. All you have to do is ask any Boston fan who watched him for the previous couple of years. I'm trying to think who your last...

Who's your last point guard that you felt awesome about? Well... You're always getting people at the tail end of their careers or the Stefan Marbury who's supposed to be the savior and they're not hated that. Chris Childs, Greg Anthony. Chris Childs was good by the way.

Don't, don't hate. 99 was good. He was tremendous. Yeah. Punch Kobe. Uh, listen,

I did think that Kemba was going to turn back the clock. Like, uh, it's there. The tweets are there. I really did believe that it was going to work out unfortunately it didn't we can't forget about the great jeremy lynn uh that was tremendous yeah that was a nice two two month run no but he was amazing that was that was fun i'll never forget it it was like the

happiest two weeks of my life uh no i mean charlie ward mark jackson air i mean it's been a long time rod strickland prior to that. Rod Strickland was good. Mo Cheeks here. Mo Cheeks, yeah. They probably gave up on Jackson a little too soon. Cerruti did a tweet from Ryan McDonough. The Knicks have the most cap space

in the league right now. And Ryan McDonough thinks it's likely they get Brunson and another free agent in the 10 to 15 million range. They also might be able to dump one more person and try to get two free agents. I wonder if they're thinking DeAndre Ayton. Yeah.

He's not bad. I don't like the way it ended over there. Listen, anyone who's butting heads with Monte Williams, who I think is one of the greatest. To me, it's a red flag. I'll just say this, like getting rid of that New Orleans contract

was, I mean, a massive blunder. Don't like that deal at all. Burks had a nice run two years ago. Last year, he sucked. Clearly things need to change a little bit. Last season was just- Don't you love when your team makes a bunch of mistakes and then a year later

has to then extricate themselves from those mistakes. And it feels like a win. And it's like, wait, you guys put us in that position. I know. It's like, Hey,

good news. We've gotten rid of the Alec Burks and Neuralism contracts. Like you mean the ones you signed 12 months ago? I know. And those, well, but those were feel good signings. Those were thank yous for that season that we had.

They were thanking you. Right. The biggest question though, like none of this, Matt, if Julius returns as he did last season, as opposed to two years ago, it's all like we need Julius to return to form. And by form, I mean,

the question is like, was 2020, 2021 an anomaly or was last year just a setback for him? That's what I don't know. I think we'll find out once and for all. Like was that year, like can he be as good as he was two years ago or was that the anomaly of his career?

What do you think? I think it was too weird and I would rather bet on the fact that he was really good two years ago than thinking last year was the guy that he now is. I think people can just have a weird year every once in a while. So I would rather... I want to see it. You don't think people can just have a weird year every once in a while.

So I would rather, I want to see it. You don't think he can return to that level of play? I think it's possible. That's what I'm saying. I would rather bet on the possibility he can be the guy he was two years ago over just writing this off because he was bad last year. With that said, if the Lakers offered me Westbrook and a 2029 protected first for Randall, and I could just get out of the Randall deal and have a clean slate a year from now, I would think about it.

I'd think about it. Nothing to do with Westbrook, Kyrie, none of these guys. Well, Kyrie is different. Now you're ruining your... He's a chemistry murderer. He's not even a chemistry killer, herie is different. Yeah, that's, I mean, now you're ruining your, you know, he's a chemistry murderer. Right. He's not even a chemistry killer,

he's a murderer because I think murderer has stronger connotations. It's a chemistry murderer. Who would you rather be right now? Yeah. Leon Rose or Sean Marks? Well, Sean Marks still has KD,

who's still one of the best five players in the league. Yeah, but you got the murderer on your, you know, the chemistry murderer. Chemistry murderer, you's still one of the best five players in the league. Yeah, but you got the murderer on your squad. Chemistry murderer, you can still trade in February. You have Ben Simmons, who at least has trade value. Worst case scenario.

You have Seth Curry. You have Joe Harris. You have Steve Nash, who I think still is a good coach. I'd still rather be the Nets from a roster standpoint. Yeah, because you guys have Brunson, RJ Barrett, a good coach. I'd still rather be the Nets from a roster standpoint. Because you guys have Brunson, R.J. Barrett, Quickly, maybe Randall.

Toppin. Toppin. I like Toppin. He made some strides. I mean, Durant, I think, is still a trump card. Worst case scenario, you could trade Durant for a shitload of stuff. Thank you for my biggest basketball hot take, which you won't care about,

but I just want to say it for the record. The Canadian men's basketball team is going to win a medal in 2024. You know, I was looking at them. They're really loaded. They have like a nine-man rotation now. It's incredible. Jamal Murray.

Who was the guy in this current draft who was secretly Canadian? Mathurin from Arizona. Yeah. Drafted by the Pacers from Montreal. That should be a website, Secret Canadians, people you just don't realize

are actually Canadian and then all of a sudden they're on the Canadian national team. These guys are great. Clark, Dylan Brooks didn't show up, but R.J. Barrett. We got, you know, like the Kelly Oleneks of the world,

but like this, Shea Gilgis. Yeah, but Kelly Olenek, that's a good Olympic player. Yes. Shea Gilgis Alexander.nyk, that's a good Olympic player. Yeah. SGA. Gildas Alexander.

Yeah. Lou Dort. I mean. Lou Dort? He's the secret Canadian? Yes. Montreal guy. I didn't realize that.

bronze at worst, but I think we can make a run for silver or gold in 2024. I can't wait. Well, listen. Andrew Wiggins. Let's not forget.

Maple Jordan. Andrew Wiggins. Winner. That's incredible. Winner. I can't wait. Well, listen. Andrew Wiggins, let's not forget, Maple Jordan. Andrew Wiggins. Winner. That's incredible. MVP of the finals. Got robbed. That's another hot take. Alright, so UFC 276 and you're doing a bunch of stuff. Go check out Ringer MMA.

Go check out Spotify Live. Go check out Ringer Gambling Show. Go meet you and the crew at Aria. Yeah. Right? 7.30 Friday. Are you a big Aria guy? All these casinos are the same to me.

Yeah. I will be there 7.30 Pacific, hanging out for the whole night at the Sportsbook. So do whatever you have to do. And listen, you want to put a future on the Bills winning the Super Bowl? I won't hate you. Okay? We'll talk about that. Remember that. The odds are like, you're not even getting future on the Bills winning the Super Bowl, I won't hate you. Okay? We'll talk about that.

Remember that. The odds are like, you're not even getting good odds anymore. It's okay. Just, you know. You know where you're getting good odds on though.

Mac Jones for MVP. Yeah, right. Get out of here with that. Have you seen Skinny Mac with his nice, nice strong jaw? He's eating correctly. He's lifting.

He's looking great. I'm setting the line at six wins. I'm taking the under. All right. Enjoy the, enjoy the event. Say's looking great. I'm setting the line at six wins. I'm taking the under. All right. Enjoy the event. Say hi to everybody. Thank you. All right. Our friend Alan Yang

is here. Had to get a distraught Lakers fan on here at some point. Did it really sink so low for the Lakers fan base that they were trying to talk themselves into Kyrie? Yeah. That's like a thing

that was happening out here. By the way, I get your scheduling, Bill. Bill texts me. He's like, you want to hop on the pod? I'm like, this is a schadenfreude pod.

This is, I mean, but what a mess, right? I mean, what a mess. Like all that Kyrie stuff. And I was, I was talking myself, not only talking myself into it,

I kind of thought it was going to happen. I thought this guy was going to give up $30 million. It still might. His only leverage was he had already proven to the Nets that he was so erratic and so strange that he might actually give up 80% of his salary

just to play for the Lakers. Because he did that last year, right? He played 26 games. He proved the point. So the Nets, I think they just kind of stared at each other. And the Nets are like, nah, you're not going to do that. And they were right. Yeah, but I mean, to answer your question, it's sad.

I mean, look, we all know that Westbrook trade didn't work out. Anything to get him off the books, anything to replace him, I don't think, you know, look, Kyrie is a weird guy to have on your team, but, you know, he can play basketball when he's on the court, right? He can play basketball when he's on the court. So I think that was the sort of Hail Mary. Like you said, maybe it's not over. You know, who knows, but it's not good.

This feels like another lost season. I mean, it's kind of a bummer because we're seeing, you know, the greatest or second greatest player of all time. And he's just kind of squandering amazing 37-year-old, 38-year-old seasons. Like if he plays like he did last year, that's incredible. We've never seen that, but it's kind of going to waste. And again, I feel like part of the, if you want a slice of the blame pie, you got to talk about AD too.

Because remember two years ago, we were like, AD is on the level with Jokic and Embiid. And now he's just, it's just his body, right? His body gave up on him and they have him on a long-term deal. And look, if you had Jokic or Embiid on your team, like, yeah, we're contenders every year,

but AD's not that guy. And prove me wrong. I hope he's in shape and he just plays 65 games this year, but I just, I have my doubts, you know? I like when he does the thing about when he goes

through each injury and how each one was a fluke injury, basically. That's what fans do, though. Literally, like, it's like you're talking yourself into it. It's like, you know,

you guys always use analogies of like someone you're dating, you know, behaving like strangers or whatever. And it's like, but, you know, once it's everything, he's always Mr. Glass.

It's a Mr. Glass situation. It's just such a bummer because if he ever put it together like he did in the bubble, my friends joke, my Laker fans are like, yeah, all we need is another bubble. Just like another season-long bubble with no fans and just like a hermetically sealed bubble

with another title. It's like AD and Braun together. It's like, it's an old man and a fragile guy. That's a surreal part of this whole thing, right? All the assets you gave up in that trade. And the one year that it really paid off, the season just stops. And then they go off to Florida and nobody

gets to go to the games. There's no parade. And that was the payoff, basically. They never got a parade. They're still complaining about it. And I get it. But look, you always say you get the ring, banners fly forever, it's worth the trade. But if you look forward, I've done this. I did my research.

I went on SpotTrack, right? So Russell Westbrook, let's say they keep him or they trade him, whatever, and he's off the books, whatever, they clear the decks, they let him play out one year. Here's who's a free agent in 2023. LeBron. James Harden. He'll probably sign the extension, They let him play out one year. Here's who's a free agent in 2023. LeBron. James Harden. He'll probably

sign the extension, so not him. Russ. Chris Middleton. He's not going anywhere. Kyrie. We'll see. Chris Stapps-Porzingis. Kevin Love. Andrew Wiggins. Jokic. He's not going anywhere. D'Angelo. The point being, there's no one to get in 2023.

It's just going to be pieces again. There's no big fish. That keeps being the plan, right? Just get big fish, big fish, but there's no one in 2023 they can get. So what's the future? You know, it's just a bummer. Well, and then the big picture question,

because I feel like we're heading towards some sort of Westbrook-Kyrie trade with the Lakers throwing in these assets, right? And the assets, they can only really trade the 27 and 29 picks or they can do pick swaps or whatever. The question is, do you do that?

You bring Kyrie in. You still can't guard anybody. You have only three guys still at that point, plus a bunch of role players you cross your fingers with. You're not going to be able to get stops defensively. And Kyrie is erratic. And that's

the nicest way I could probably put it. I could put it in a lot more meat-spinning ways. Kyrie's super erratic. He might show up and be really weird. Also, Kyrie played last year in the playoffs. They got swept, and I thought the Celtics handed him his lunch the last three games.

And that part seems like it should matter too, that he's a smaller guard. You can hunt him on defense. Offensively, like the playoff stats, they're not incredible since the 2017 finals. I mean, do you want to max Kyrie Irving? He's a small guard over 30. Forget the off the court stuff. He's a small guard over 30. Forget the off the court stuff.

He's a small guard over 30. He's an incredible shot maker. He's really fun to watch. But do you want him? I mean, no one wanted to trade for him. He wanted to be traded. Nobody made an offer. He made a list of the six sign and trade teams.

And other than the Lakers, everybody else was like, cool. No, thank you. And it's exactly what you're saying. The Lakers are extremely desperate because it's... LeBron has... How many years can LeBron play like this? One more year? Two more years? There's these... I mean, I'm

bummed out, obviously. You can tell. I'm a Laker fan. We saw what happened last year. They made their own bed. They traded for Russ. They could have just run it back with Caruso, KCP, and Kuzma. Why not do that? Why not do that? I mean, we know why, but you know. The move now is you just keep everything.

You take Russ into the season. You pretend you're happy about it. And he's an expiring contract the moment the season starts. And then you just got to do that dance. See what you can get out of them for three months. And then once it gets to February, all of a sudden, 10 teams are unhappy with their teams.

You never know. That's when you can grab somebody. Right now, it's like the Kyrie thing does not make sense. I think you're right. I think that's just... And by the way, poor Darvin Ham. It's like they blame Vogel. I don't think Vogel's the problem here. I hope Darvin Ham's great, but Darvin Ham. They blame Vogel. I don't think Vogel's the problem here. I hope Darvin Ham's great.

But Darvin Ham's going to come in and coach Russ up. Look, Russ was a great player. He's just not that guy anymore. So, you know, it's not good. And by the way, look at what Boston has right now. We don't talk about Boston,

but it's just young, athletic, defensive players and just guys on rookie, not rookie deals, but guys on reasonable deals. And it's just, are we seeing a change in the construction of teams? Even look at the Warriors. It's not three stars and flotsam and jetsam. It's really one star. It's Steph. And then Dre and Klay are not what they used to be,

but Dre was pretty amazing the last couple of games. And then it's just kind of long-rangey defenders. I mean, it was like Wiggins. I mean, Wiggins played really well. Wiggins was great. But are we seeing a different, like, is the old star model? I only say this as a Laker fan because the Lakers always built around, hey, we got two big max guys.

We got Shaq and Kobe, or we got Kobe and Powell. I mean, that was a little bit of a team. But they're LeBron and AD and that's two max guys. And we'll just build around that and we'll just find minimums. Is that changing because of the way the game's played and everything's switched and you need lengthy defenders? That's all I see now is big wings, Big defensive wings. I think that's part of it. I think there's just way more talent. And you look at the Warriors and the Celtics and even a team like the Heat that just has these dudes like Max Struess just coming out of nowhere and all of a sudden they're good. I look back at that 2008 range, right? You guys made the finals in 08, the Celtics win. But think about the guys you had in that series. Like Vujicic played real minutes. Radmanovic played like real minutes. That's right.

Vujicic was hitting clutch free throws. The machine. All this, I mean, Vujicic. We had like, you know, Eddie House was out there in these big moments and guys that were like really specialists and that's it. The league just seems like those guys now,

those seventh, eighth, ninth guys, they're guys like Gary Payton now. They're guys who are like these elite defenders. Or for us, it was Derek White and Grant Williams and I guess Peyton Pritchard, that's where it starts to fall off a cliff a little bit. But the league seems deeper to me now. You're right.

And Grant Williams was reputably defending Kevin Durant. And Giannis. And Giannis. And Giannis. And he's your eighth man, maybe. And he was hitting corner threes. So if you don't have those guys, the problem with the Lakers, I mean, we all know the problem. Last year, they just didn't have any wing-sized players.

And that's what you need. They couldn't defend. They couldn't do anything. And you're in this conference that all these other teams have really good stars in depth. I just think the era of here are two guys. We've kind of filled out the blanks around them and we can contend for a title. Now I think that era is over. Yeah.

It almost doesn't matter. I mean, we saw with Brooklyn a little bit too. I mean, James was no longer what he was, but I mean, look up, you look at the team of papers,

like how could they not win the title? They've got essentially two MVP caliber players. And Kyrie, of course, James fell off a bit. But they just couldn't make it work with the men guys. People got hunted. That's the other thing is like with the new ball movement, Kirk Goldsberry, all that stuff. You'll get played off the floor. Peyton Pritchard will get played off the floor unless he's scoring like a maniac.

Because you can hunt him defensively. That's what the Celtics are doing to Kyrie. Yeah, exactly. They were hunting Kyrie. It goes back to my Kyrie point with the Lakers. I've just never totally understood it. They don't need more offense. You look at what succeeded for them in 2020. It was like

they had these two exceptional offensive players and then really smart role players who could defend and they were tough. Yeah. And Kyrie's not helping that. No. It was like, you need like prime Danny Greens. You know, like they had a younger Danny Green

a couple of years ago and they had Caruso and they had, you know, that's super valuable. It's just super valuable. We saw in the Celtics series all in the East, right? Those guys were able to guard the superstars and at least do it reputably. And switch, switch, switch the East, right? Those guys were able to guard the superstars and at least do it reputably. And Switch, Switch, Switch, Switch, right? Think about the last two Kobe titles.

You get Ariza and one of them who pops basically out of nowhere. They made a great trade and they were able to get him and he all of a sudden is playing these big minutes. Then the next year, they basically go to the discount store and get our test. Kind of hoping, kind of keeping And then next year, you know, they basically go to the discount store and get our test. Yeah.

Man. Kind of hoping, kind of keeping your fingers crossed and hoping that this lunatic is going to be able to hold up for eight months. And he did. He made like huge shots. The best no, no, no, yes shot in Laker history. I mean, we don't need to relive that. I don't even put you through that memory. But I think that era is over of like, hey, if we get this one guy and it's a flyer, but if it works out, it'll flip everything.

Now it's like, it's three guys. It's not one. I think Miami is a great analogy for this too, because it's like, yeah, where like Duncan Robinson falls off, Max Drew's plug, they plug him in and he's great. It's like, what? Like, how did this even happen?

Ola Depot just like kind of working his way back. It's like, let's throw him out there. He was the top 15 guy three years ago. So yeah, I was looking at the free agent list and it's like staggering to me how many good guys that are, that would help the Celtics. Like literally there's 20 guys where I was like, wow, he would play 20 minutes for us. Yeah. You know, and that, that just like in 2012, this is a good example of the Celtics. We had like Mikhail Piatras and just people where, you know, Big Baby Davis played big minutes for years for the Celtics. And you're just like, your fingers are crossed that you can get anything out of those guys. People, I mean, Lakers were playing Slava Medvedenko, you know.

Right. Ukraine train coming in. The 0-4 finals. Yeah, yeah. He's playing. He's playing. But I don't know. It just feels like, you know, big picture for Laker fans. I think the toughest thing is it's, it's, you know,

I like to frame it as we're underdogs. It's a mom and pop shop. It's just, you know, Jeannie bus, look up Jeannie buses, net worth 500 mil, look up Steve Ballmer's net worth. Right. $100 billion. So which team should be better? Right. Now look, I think you could say that the happy compromise is kind of the Warriors, right? They have a culture and they're spending money. And they seem to have a smart sort of management team.

You know me. I used to write for a blog that was kind of a moneyball themed. Yeah. The Lakers don't seem to be doing that. And they're not big, they're not deep pocketed. So now what are you doing? It's like, they're not the Oakland A's and they're not like the Yankees. They don't have the money either.

So it's like, yeah, I wish we did have, look at the Dodgers, right? They're doing both. Andrew Friedman, their ownership. It's like, it's crazy. Yeah. The Dodgers have kind of shifted places with the Lakers in a lot of ways. They're now the big money LA team. Every year. But I don't really blame Jeannie.

She doesn't have the resources in some ways. She doesn't have as much money. So it's kind of like a local Mexican restaurant going up against Taco Bell. It's just an underdog story. Now you're getting carried away. Come on. They make so much money from tickets. I know. I'm joking.

And the TV. I'm joking. This is copium, but it is just like, you know, it's just, what can you do? Look, we have LeBron.

You watch him play. You hope AD's healthy and you'll have a little bit of fun watching the team that those guys are playing. But that's the problem, right? It's like they just, they don't have any ability

to build a team without him. It's all going to be vet men guys. It's vet men guys, Austin Reeves and Wayne and Gabriel build a team without him. It's all going to be vet men guys. It's vet men guys, Austin Reeves and Wendon Gabriel. Like that's Stanley Johnson, right? That's, that's tough. That's, that's what we were looking at last year.

And that's, that's tough. I like your, I like your move, your PR move of the Lakers refashioning themselves as scrappy underdogs that don't have the checkbook of Steve Ballmer and the Warriors. This is smart. I'm a writer. Just,

you know, reframe the narrative here. You know, they're underdogs. They're just underdogs. The big, bad warriors, big,

bad Clippers, all these teams with money. Like it's like, you know what? It's just one, one poor woman against the world. She's relatively poor as an NBA owner. She's like,

didn't you guys see winning time? My dad had to leverage everything just to buy this team. Yes, her dad didn't own Microsoft. Her dad was like, yeah, he was a kind of rich guy. The Clippers are building their own arena and we can't. We don't have the resources. We're betting

on crypto. Put all our money in crypto. By the way, those checks might start bouncing. Are we going to see crypto. By the way, those checks might start bouncing. Yeah. Are we going to see crypto.com come down? Is it going to be like Chipotle Arena or something soon? Because crypto.com.

Chipotle Arena sounds great. It's just the sound of it makes me hungry. Speaking of obscene wealth. So you do this new show that you co-created on Apple. It's called Loot. And there is obscene wealth. I feel like the era of TV shows that can dip into the obscene

wealth world, and we could just see these huge yachts on our HD TVs, and it just looks decadent and awesome. These giant... What was the house you used in this show? It's like a $120 million house? Yes. It's this house called The One. The show stars

Maya Rudolph. It's on Apple TV. She plays someone who divorces her husband and inherits $87 billion. This house was the largest mansion in LA. It was listed at $500 million. Legendarily, the highest property listing of any

residential place in... And it has its own nickname. Yes. It's called The One. And this house has six swimming pools. It has a nightclub. It has a private theater, a bowling alley, a candy room that's outside the movie theater in case you need candy before you go watch a movie. It's so big that we not only didn't shoot all six pools, I think we shot like three of the pools, we used other parts of the house for other locations in the show. It's 100,000 square feet.

So, yeah. You know it's a big house when it has a nickname. It has a nickname. Like Graceland, Neverland, The One. You know you really made it at that point. Yes. How do you rent a house like that? And why don't the people live there?

Is it just like they're just renting it out to things like your show? Yes. I think one of the most obscene things, and to be clear, anyone listening to this, the show was not sort of worshipping billionaires. It has something to say about why people have this money. However... But you have to go into the world of super rich. You're trying to have your cake.

You need it too. It's a little bit escapist. You're going to see these yachts, private jets. She's an enormous private jet that whatever, we rented and stuff. But this house, this is the problem. You go into this house and it's crazy. It looks like a museum,

but you also feel a little bit sick because you're like, look, 400 people could be living here. And instead, there isn't even one person living here. It's empty. It's literally empty. And we're renting it out for a TV show. But that's the problem. There's these empty properties. It's just people. Some people are too rich. They're so rich, they can buy this house and not even need it. So when you were in that house, my co-creator,

Matt Hubbard, it was interesting to go there. And it was like, wow, cool. We're shooting this property. We're there with Maya and Adam Scott. And it was really fun to be there in some respects. But then in other respects, you're like, this is disgusting. So that's the tension in the show as well. That's some of the... As Molly, the character Maya plays,

goes throughout the show, she learns some lessons about that. Humanity and getting outside her bubble. Well, so you... Can you tell the story about how you got the idea? Yeah, absolutely. We just wanted to make a show with Maya.

Me and Hubbard had made a show called Forever with Maya and Fred Armisen. And we just really enjoyed working with both of them. And we were trying to think of an idea for Maya. And look, billionaires were in the news. This was a couple years ago. And it was like, look, income inequality, late-stage capitalism. The obscene wealth was totally... You were looking at these people's... Remember during the pandemic, it was like, these guys' wealths, they were doubling.

And it's like, people are starving. These guys' wealths are just going out of... I don't think wealth is grammatical, but whatever. It was just spiraling in such a way that Hubbard texted me the idea like, okay, Maya plays a woman who gets divorced from her husband and is left with nothing but $87 billion. I was like, that's an idea. That's an idea and Maya is's building her life over again. And she's been broken up with. And she invested in this person who became very wealthy. But ultimately, she was just a plus one. She was an appendage. And it's about her finding a purpose in life. And again, discovering what it's like to be a normal human being

as opposed to a crazy rich person. And the guy she divorced is Adam Scott, who pulled off the rarely seen, I don't know how many people have been able to do this, maybe Richard Gere, that's it, cheated on in Big Little Lies. And then the cheater in this show. Not many people can go both ways

where it's like, I totally believe that that guy got cheated on. He obviously wasn't carrying his weight. And then I totally believe that guy's totally fucking everybody. How did you do it? I got a text out of that. Because I thought you were going to say, this is also incredible.

Look at the range of this guy. He's Mr. Apple this year. He's in Severance, one of the best dramas of the year. And he's in our show, which is a comedy for Apple. And their shows are both doing well. And it's really like, this guy can do everything. He can play small like he does in Parks and Rec. He can play douchey like he does in Step Brothers. Like you said,

he can cheat on, he can get cheated on, he can cheat. It's like this is... And he's also a great guy. I mean, we were so happy to get him. He's an old friend from Parks and I think they're just so funny together. And he keeps popping up in the show as well. So look for more of him in the show,

but, um, yeah, absolutely incredible job by him. Incredibly unlikable, but also incredibly funny. Well, the other thing with Maya Rudolph,

like she has like a huge family. It's, she is, I don't know, she pulls it off. Does she have like four kids? She has four kids. Uh,

it was incredible at the premiere. She was there with Paul Thomas Anderson, to me, the greatest living filmmaker. You've interviewed Paul before. I mean, he's such a great guy. And yeah, so she's with Paul. She has four children. She's raising them.

She's shooting. She's like a hands-on mod. I know. And I had some friends talking about like, yeah, we're trying to get Mighty to do our movie. I'm like, she's busy. Stop monopolizing her time. We need her arrested for the show. Anytime anyone has more than two kids, I'm just in awe of them. Especially on top of it to try

to have a career. Everyone I know who has three kids or more, they're just on the defense basically for 10 years. And by the way, making a TV show is a lot. I have no kids. Sometimes I'm tired. If you had four kids, it's like you're getting met four in the morning. You're going to go shoot the mansion in Bel Air. You got to get with four. Go to this mansion. But yeah, it's incredible. And she really

brought it. You're Frank Vogel every day. You're Frank Vogel last year in the Lakers every day with four kids. Just trying to put out fires. All egos, fires. Oh, my God. Two kids are hard. Especially when they get older and the egos start coming in and stuff.

But yeah, I'm always impressed when anyone can function, much less have a job. Yeah. And she's so sweet with her kids. She tells me stories about them all the time. They seem like a wonderful, fun family. So, I don't know. Congrats to them. Is she's so sweet with her kids. She tells me stories about them all the time. They seem like a wonderful, fun family. So I don't know. Congrats to them. Is she one of the most... It just seems like she's one of the most liked people. I know it's a weird thing to say and people always lie about, no, no, they're great. And then you kind of know. But with her, it really does seem like she is generally universally beloved.

She is genuinely beloved. And also, here's the thing. She can move in any circle. She's been in amazing films. She's been on SNL. She knows everybody. We had Seal on our show, right? Seal came on. The joke is he's singing at her birthday party.

And so Seal just wants to talk to Maya. Seal's there singing Kiss Around. Everyone wants to be friends with her. There's an amazing story. We were doing a table read. We do Zoom table reads because it's more convenient for the actors, safer for COVID. And she was a minute or two late and she hopped on. She's like, Oh, I'm so sorry.

I went out back and Paul was having lunch with Denzel Washington. And I got caught up and Denzel wanted to talk. I was like, yeah, you had to talk to Denzel. Our tablery can wait a couple of minutes. Right. It's just like, that's the life. And yet at the same time, you're right. She's mostly just hanging out with her kids,

taking them to school and stuff and very down to earth in a lot of ways. So it's really, she's multi-valent. She's multi-talented. She can do drama. She can do comedy, much like Adam. So, and she is, yes, universally beloved, I would say. It's just, you know, be a good person.

You know, that's it. Meanwhile, you broke news there. Denzel's going to be in the new Paul Thomas. Oh, maybe that was, yeah. Put that in the trades. Can you imagine that movie, by the way? Like maybe my favorite actor maybe my favorite director

like I'll sign me up now I pay a hundred bucks to see that right now that would be great I mean Denzel's work was some great ones too

alright so what are we two episodes in on Apple they drop three the first week and then there's weekly after that

so it says it comes out every Friday but I believe it's actually out like 6pm.m. Pacific on Thursday nights. Yeah, fun, funny comedy. What I've heard is just like, it's a little bit escapist, right?

It's like, look, it's some of the darkest shit in the world is happening right now. Yeah. If you want to sort of escape for a second, turn it on. It's very warm. It's about people working together. Great cast.

Michaela J. Rodriguez from Pose. Nat Faxon, Joel Kim Booster, who's having an amazing summer. Nat Faxon and it's just, you know, it was a really fun show and we hope people enjoy it and, you know, relax for a second. You left out one person that we both know. David Chang.

Mr. David Chang. How did you get him to be in this? He doesn't want to do anything. He hates everything. What are you talking about? He hates everything. He doesn't want to do anything. He hates everything. What are you talking about? He hates everything. He doesn't like really anything at all other than food. It was so fun. And he's souring on food.

He's souring on food. He's also out on food. No, we actually all went to a wedding, me and Dave and Adam. Adam was there also not too long ago. And I had a long three-hour lunch with Dave. And he was like, what am I going to do, man?

You should listen to his pod. Obviously, you know, people out there, he has his own podcast. So, you know, but he's like,

he's just like, I got to like rethink my life. And like, he's just like a big thinker, right? He's always making big moves and we're opposites. Like, I think this is why we get along.

He's like, he's like, fuck you, man. You're always so happy. Like, that's all he's like. That's what he's always saying.

Cause he's always thinking about stuff, but you know, that's why he's great at what he does. But we just love the joke of... Spoiler alert, he's Maya's personal chef. So he's just around. He's making her amazing dishes and then she just keeps asking for junk food

and burritos and stuff. So that's the bit. But yeah, by the way, I had to sort of rattle his cage. He didn't want to act. He acted in David Simon's thing because he loves David Simon. I'm emphatically not as good as David Simon

at writing, but we're buddies. He came back in. David Simon's the greatest writer of all time. But yeah, he came in and he's in a couple episodes. So I was really happy. It was fun to get him out of the house. He left the house. Yeah. He's playing golf

again shang's going through a whole bunch of stuff i know i can't wait to play golf with him so good luck um good luck with the show and don't have good luck with the lakers i mean look need more luck than this show i'll say that they're they're in a spot of trouble good luck to your team but not really because you don't need it that team's too good man that team's too good you're set up you're set up You know what we need in basketball, like in baseball now? I was looking at Joe. I mean, you still love the baseball stats and all the nerdy stuff,

right? A little bit? I check in on it. I have a baseball. I have a couple of baseball threads. And I'll go see a game too. That's really fun. I'm so fascinated by Joey Gallo. I would watch like a three-hour show on Joey Gallo. Joey Gallo's hitting like 160. Yeah. And it's like he's the ultimate three-out show on Joey Gallo. Joey Gallo's hitting like 160. Yeah.

And it's like he's the ultimate three-outcome guy. Three true outcomes. Really seems like it's zero outcomes because he can't ever get up. Can you get over 200? Like, can you hit 200? Right. 160 is like five out of six times I'm going to probably strike out

or have a ground out. That just seems like, how is this a good guy to have in your team? I don't understand baseball at all anymore. Even as I watch it, I don't understand half of it. I don't either. And the one thing that we talk about a lot now is like, if Shohei can't save baseball, who can save it?

And look, maybe if you were on the Dodgers or something, but this dude, he had back-to-back nights of what? I know. Like 13 strikeouts and then eight RBI or back RBI, reversing the order. But that's comic book shit. That's like, this is Babe Ruth. It's Babe Ruth.

Well, you could say the same thing about Aaron Judge. I mean, I was talking to somebody the other day about if Aaron Judge, if this was 1998, Aaron Judge and Shohei would be like two of the five biggest stars in any sport. Right. All we would be talking about is can Aaron Judge get 60 homers? Is this guy the next mantle?

Oh, my God. You see what Judge did yesterday? Nobody cares. But I think I just think people don't care about regular season baseball at all anymore. Yeah. I just said this to Russell on Sunday night. It's it's not that he needs to go to a big market, but I think he does,

but it's more like he just needs to go to a team that is going to be playing in October. So the most of the casual fans who never watched baseball until four weeks in October, they just need to see him because they're not going to watch him in June. They'll see him on Twitter. They'll see him on Instagram, on TikTok. They're so, they're so bad. And by the way, they also have Mike Trout. They have, him on Twitter. They'll see him on Instagram, on TikTok. They're so bad.

And by the way, they also have Mike Trout. They have the two most legendarily good players. It's shocking. I don't know what the solution is, but you're right. We're old enough to remember Maguire and Sosa. Those guys were in commercial.

Those guys were epically famous. If you're Mike Trout and Shohei Otani, you could walk into an Applebee's anywhere in the country and no one would know who the fuck you were. It's so crazy. It just doesn't make any sense. Most people probably saw him in Sunday's brawl.

The Angels-Barroners brawl because that was probably the most shared social clip of the year in baseball so far. But yeah, it's... He just needs to be on a big team that will be in the playoffs. And the year in baseball so far. Look, he just needs to be on a big team that will be in the playoffs. And the same thing with Trout. People don't know Trout. He hasn't been in the fucking playoffs. It's been a decade of

this guy being essentially like Barry Bonds Jr. He's incredible. It's just boring. The guy likes weather. He's not setting the world on fire with being controversial or anything. But yeah, anyway, we all know that. No one knows who Mike Trout is.

My hot take is Trout might be more interesting than I realized. I like that. Because during the fantasy football thing with, what's his face, Jack Peterson? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So they interviewed Trout in the dugout like two weeks later,

and they were asking about the league and it was like, oh, he's actually like funny. What's going on here? Like he was having like a good time with the interview and he was like, he had jokes and I'm like,

Trout, who knew? Maybe this should be your next show. Have you ever interviewed him? Have you ever interviewed him? No, I was intrigued after it though. Yeah. Maybe he just keeps a low profile. Look, you know,

you keep your life simple. If you're not massively famous massively famous again this is a treatise on fame yeah that is you think you want to be famous as a kid i think but at a certain point you know i feel like i've met some famous people it's like you don't want to be that famous it's not you don't be so famous you got to rent the restaurant out you know you want to be like hey a couple people want to take photos with you occasionally. That's a nice level of fame. You don't want to be like, I can't walk. I can't move around the world. I can't move about. It's just not fun. I feel like I've seen that. I've been on the periphery of that and you don't want that. You want to be like a very low level of fame.

You want to be Mike Trout in Anaheim, just going 70, 75 and 87 every year. King of the town, king of the town. All right. Alan Yang. Good luck with the show. Worst luck with the Lakers. Good to see you as always.

Thanks for having me, buddy. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Woz and band. Thanks to Ariel. And thanks to Alan Yang. Thanks to Kyle Crane for producing.

Thanks to Steve Cerruti and Dylan Berkey as well. And I'll see's within me. On the wayside, I'm a bruised soul. I never said I don't have to ever.