The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Durant Game With Chris Ryan. Plus Dallas Dysfunction and Clips-Jazz With Jonathan Tjarks.

Episode Date: June 16, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Chris Ryan to discuss Kevin Durant’s incredible performance in the Nets’ Game 5 comeback win over the Bucks. They talk about Durant’s 49 points in 48 minutes, the Bucks’ questionable in-game adjustments, James Harden’s hamstring injury, Game 6 predictions, and more (3:00). Then Bill talks with Jonathan Tjarks about a report from The Athletic that there is friction in the Mavericks' front office, the lack of talent surrounding Luka Doncic on the Mavericks roster, looking back on the Clippers-Mavericks Round 1 series, Kristaps Porzingis’s trade value, and more (46:00). They also cover the Jazz-Clippers Round 2 series, the Clippers’ Game 4 win, and more (1:14:30). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Chris Ryan and Jonathan Tjarks  Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, we wait until the night games are done to pod for the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way. If you were wrong, you could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel, like to catch your pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game across the Sunday slate. Offensive TDs in the next drive. They have so much stuff. It's crazy.

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So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com as well as The Ringer Podcast Network. Hope you're checking out What If, the Len Bias story, which is running on the Book of Basketball feed. It's our narrative story, series about Len Bias. New rewatchables went out this week as well. We did City Slickers, me, Chris Ryan, and Sean Fantasy. Coming up, going to react to the incredible, unbelievable game five bucks nets with Chris Ryan.

And then this is a really special one. Uh, tape the second part of this podcast earlier today, but Jonathan sharks from the ringer, uh, making his first appearance in a while on this podcast. And we're going to explain why that matters. It's all coming up next.

First, our friends from ProJab. All right, taping this. It's almost 8.15 Pacific time. Just watch Bucks, Nets. Chris Ryan is here. The history of great game fives in the NBA playoffs. For some reason, it's usually when the teams are 2-2. You can remember the iconic ones by one thing that happened. You know, the steal.

Bird and Isaiah, 1987, I made a little list 2019. That's when KD Toronto, when he hurt the Achilles to all the drama from that game, 2018 rockets beat the warriors. Chris Paul gets hurt, becomes the Chris Paul game. Uh, 93 Charles Smith game. Oh, seven LeBron 48, 84 finals heat game, 2005 finals, H Smith game. 07, LeBron 48. 84 finals, Heat game. 2005 finals, Horry game. 97 finals, Flu game. 2010, Suns-Lakers, the Artest game.

2006 finals, the Bennett-Salvatore game. 1976 finals, Triple OT game. 1980 finals, Kareem gets hurt, comes back game, 2010 Eastern finals, the LeBron, what the F is going on with him against Boston game. Right. 86, Sampson. And now Chris Ryan, the Kevin Durant game. I don't know if he had a game before.

I think this is it. It is the Kevin Durant game. And you guys were just talking on Sunday night. You and Ryan were talking about well, they're going to need him to go nuclear. They're going to need him to be the Robert Patrick Terminator and come back and be

liquid and run through flames. And that's what he did for the entire game. Didn't sit a minute and seem to get stronger as the game went on. I guess their game plan was like, as long as we can keep this within touching distance, we're going to make one big push in the second half. Yeah.

I don't know. I mean, like, it's like, I know that Durant just did something incredibly special, but I cannot get over how apoplectic I would be if I was a Bucs fan. And I can't wait to talk about that. So the Rucker Park KD, that whole thing, the summer, I think of 2009 or 10,

and he had like 66 and he went into Rucker Park mode. It was awesome. I wrote down after three quarters, he was at 29, 15 and eight. I was like, those are some good stats. I wonder where he's going to end up. He ends up at 49, 17 and 10. He had 20 points in the fourth quarter, 16 for 23, 13 for 16 from the line. And as you said, he played all 48 minutes. This is a guy who almost two years ago to this week blew out his Achilles. I have been riding for this for a while, played my best dudes, game like this, 43 minutes, 44 minutes, maybe steal little minutes here and there. Nash was like, fuck it. I've been in games like this.

KD, you're staying out there. It was just, to me, like the shot making, the creativity, the clutch shit, that play, the biggest play of the game. Harden has that awful possession. Yeah. The Harden like screwing up the shot clock at half court and then Durant coming in and saving it like that. And oh my God, I just can't. It was like also sort of cool because I think that this season, both because like the main three of Brooklyn missed so much time, they haven't played that many games together, is that at various points it was a different person's team and you could just feel with brooklyn in the building for

that game and like you know you could just see the that was like a march madness crowd or something that was such an amazing moment to watch him get that as like the leader of that brooklyn team and it was like i i think that everybody saw that they were witnessing something special the problem is is that like the only person who didn't it was was, but like the only, the only person who wasn't like, what's like the emergency, I have to pull the lever was, but yeah, well, I would, I would throw James Harden in there as well. He had some pretty bizarre moments. I can't wait to talk about him either. What's interesting about Durant. So he wins the two titles with Golden State and he has some great head to head stuff with LeBron and the two game threes in Cleveland were both really good games.

And he hits the big shot in both of those games. 2019 felt like that was going to be his year. Where it's like, I'm now... I kind of already was the best player in the league, but now I'm really laying the smack down. He ends up getting hurt and it gets taken away from him. I wasn't sure if we were going to see it again. He's never had a game

this special in a moment, this special in his entire career. And to me, that's crazy. Cause I think he's one of the best 15 players ever. I think he's the best player right now, but now we have the little, uh, the little ribbon to put on it. We have the one game we can point to, by the way, if they win this series with the big three of him, Blake Griffin and Jeff green. Oh my God. Uncle Jeff. I didn't, I wasn't expecting that to be with the big three of him, Blake Griffin and Jeff Green. Oh my God, Uncle Jeff. I wasn't expecting that to be the new big three, Chris Ryan. Jeff Green going for Reggie Miller in the garden. I was not ready for that.

He had five threes in the first three quarters. And basically, if he went two for five, they're down by 20 plus and the game's over. He has to hit all five of those. I guess they were like relatively open, but it wasn't like he was like by himself on an island. Like he was playing within the flow of the game. I was really surprised to see Harden out there the entire game,

essentially as a decoy. But I would love to like actually rewatch that game just to see what kind of like ripple effects his presence had both on their defense but also on how it set up other guys. Because I think he was making passes in this game that they were not making in the game previous. And for some reason gave Durant an extra amount of confidence that

I'm not sure Tyler Johnson is going to give him. Harden was statistically horrific in this game. It was performance art out there. I test wise was also pretty bad. He finished the game. He had,

uh, let's see, five points, six rebounds, eight assists, four turnovers. He was one for 10, Oh,

for eight from three, all of them were short. He had no lift at all. And I had kind of a bad habit of when, I don't know whether Durant was tired near the end there, last four minutes, where all of a sudden he wasn't touching the ball at all and stuff was running

through Harden. There was some Landry Schammett and it was like, where's Durant? I know they were defending him a little bit differently, but it felt like tonight the only guy who could stop Durant was James Harden by being sloppy with the ball and doing dumb shit. Once they had Harden bringing the ball up by being sloppy with the ball and doing dumb shit once they

had harden bringing the ball up towards the end of the game it went and they went away from getting a really high screen for for durant's guy and letting durant go downhill now we kind of saw that a little bit with lebron in that suns game where it was like oh man if lebron's just gonna go coast to coast every time there's nobody on the suns who could pick him up but you just run out of gas so i do think that like durant at a certain point was like i can't do this 45 foot drive anymore like i'm gonna have to come down from off the baseline and go off a couple screens to get a shot here well and then on top of it it wasn't like he was a dh he's also their rim protector on defense listen that was in the running for best two way games.

I think I've ever seen anyone play. I don't know. I'm not ready. I'm not prepared at eight 19, 10 minutes after the game ended to give my complete list, but I'd find it hard pressed to remember somebody playing a more memorable, important clutch, a two way game with their season on the line,

right? Cause if they lose this, the series is over. They're not winning in Milwaukee. It's not happening. You have to make an argument that it's an elimination game either way. Because I can't really see Milwaukee beating them twice.

So it's like, now you're in a situation where you're coming out of this game and you have all of this leverage over the other team. Yeah, the two-way play was amazing. I actually thought like some of the, they kept going for Middleton against Durant for a while. And I was like, this is obviously not working. It was very, very, very, very, very bizarre.

I, as a longtime Durant guy, and as somebody who was really convinced that he is the best player in the league, and I think he's gotten a raw deal against LeBron when people talk about the best players and the head-to-head stuff. And with KD, especially like, like that sound like a Katie apologist, but the worst thing really got held against him because as was this Brooklyn thing, the Brooklyn thing was being held against him. Definitely. But in 17 and 18, I think he was, he outplayed LeBron in the 17 finals.

Um, in 18, I still thought he was the best player in the world. And then LeBron had that crazy playoff run and it's like, Hmm, I don't know. They're, they're dead even. And then in 2019, that was the year LeBron got hurt and it just seemed like Durant had passed him. Then Durant gets hurt and then it flips again. And LeBron ends up winning the title with the Lakers. And now it feels like it's flipped back. I look, I he's, he's him and LeBron, think, are the two best players of the past 15 years by any calculation.

I don't care where you're going with it. And it was always weird to me that he never got the credit. I think it was from some of the choices he made. You saw it tonight. Tonight was his masterpiece. It still doesn't mean they're going to win the series. Just FYI. No, but I was kind of struck by...

I hate to say this, but I felt like Giannis was diminished a little bit in my eyes tonight watching him in comparison to KD. I know they have different games and I know they do different things, but even the fact that Giannis wasn't guarding him,

I was just kind of like, take a shot at that. Take a shot at Giannis getting out there on him and just like... I don't know what they were like. Were they saving Giannis for offense?

But there was a way in which like Durant kind of separated himself from the crowd tonight that I thought was really special yeah and if you're a Bucks fan we might as well do this now first of all if that was the Celtics I would not have been able to tape the podcast I was

catatonic I would be Blair Witch turned against the wall just staring at nothing for days. I just like they would have to take the locker room you did and bury it underneath the earth like it was like from Chernobyl. They're up seventy four fifty seven. Yeah. And Harden's been a complete zero. He's done nothing. He looks like me the last year I was playing pickup. Like he's going 40% speed, doesn't want to guard anybody. And it was just kind of weird that they were playing him. And that's when I started making my weird game five list

because I thought we were going to remember this as the Harding game. Like why the fuck did they play James Harding game? Like literally pick any player in that roster and he would have been more effective. And then here's what happens. Comes out of a timeout commercial. Inbounds play. For some reason, nobody's guarding Blake Griffin. It's a wide open three. Comes back down. Middleton scores. Katie gets a coast to coast layup. Giannis has a little eight foot turnaround miss. Jeff Green three. Jeff Green block on the other end.

Shamit face hits a three all of a sudden it's 76 68. And it was one of those moments. Cause it happened in like a minute and a half. So 76 68, I think Chris, if you're a bucks fan, that's the moment, right? That's where you're, you, you're not swallowing anymore. There's no saliva in your mouth. You're just going, oh God. And they cut the bud on the sideline and you're like, oh God. Right.

Oh God, here we go. But the thing you talked about Giannis being diminished, this was the rub with him, right? Where it's like, what happens in a game that could basically decide your season and you're trading baskets with one of the best players in the league and you can only go one of two

from the free throw line every time, which is exactly what happened today. The reason that the Nets had the one point lead with 30 seconds left was because Giannis couldn't make two free throws in a row. And the Nets knew it. They had a couple of really smart fouls of him where it's like, fine, go, go get your one or two.

We're going to outscore you. It's tough. There was just like a perfect storm of all of them being bad at once you know what i mean like there was like a little while there i think late in the third maybe early in the fourth i'd have to look but it was like middleton like threw a couple of counters and they like it would be like down to eight and then i think he would get it up to 11 or something like that but like between holiday and yannis it just seemed like their spirits vacated their bodies for the last 20 minutes of that game like between Holiday and Giannis, it just seemed like their spirits vacated their bodies

for the last 20 minutes of that game time-wise. And we don't know how loud and crazy it was there. It seemed pretty intense. Pretty intense. Listen, there were a lot of crimes against basketball by the Bucs. And I was listening to Zach and Van Gundy today,

and Zach was like, I thought during game four that might be it for Coach Bud. I was listening to Zach and Van Gundy today and they, and Zach was like, I thought during game four, um, that was, that might be it for coach, but he, Van Gundy did this whole speech, which I thought was very noble about, they always want to change the coach,

simply in the coach, but everyone wants to be the spurs and the continuity and the whole thing. And it was good. He kind of talked me into it. And then I watched today and I'm like, there's no way coach, but this is one of the worst coaching jobs I've ever seen. You have James Harden who can't move or run. And there's'm like, there's no way Coach Bud comes back. This is one of the worst coaching jobs I've ever seen. You have James Harden

who can't move or run and there's moments like, there was a moment with three minutes left when Giannis got, Harden got switched on him and he took him down the low post. He ends up doing like a fadeaway turnaround. He waved off Shamit's double because he knew he could, he was like, the only thing

Giannis is going to do is do this shot, this turnaround, this turnaround. And I got him. And it's James Harden. James Harden was getting turnstiled earlier in the game. It's, and there was a lot of stuff like that where you're just like,

why aren't they targeting Harden? Why aren't they making a move? Why aren't they making moves? Because the, the Nets were just like, cool, put him on PJ Tucker. Right.

KD was hotter than the sun. PJ Tucker wasn't stopping anything. Just take PJ Tucker out the trade-off there it's like okay well PJ's a zero on offense but he can guard KD and then when KD starts catching fire don't you eventually just say like well then let's just make them pay for it down at the other end let's just pray body blows and instead they're like no we're gonna have PJ barking at KD the entire, but essentially get vaporized. And then they can

hide Harden out on him in the corner. And this Bucs thing where they would rather pass to a fire hydrant for an open three-pointer than take the game to the net. And there was like... So they just don't rebound. I guess I haven't watched the Bucs enough, but do they not do any offensive

rebounding? Are they that? Yeah, they had four today. They give it up because they try to get back on defense. When you said Tucker was a zero, literally he was a zero. He had zero points. Listen, there were a lot of crimes in this game from Milwaukee from a strategy standpoint,

from not using timeouts. Once you have a lead like that and you're on the road, you can't let the other team get momentum? When bud challenged that Brooke Lopez, James Harden fell. Yeah. Was anybody like, how was that great challenge?

Yeah. Good one. That guy's going to be like, you know what? Harden did arm bar him. I've decided to see the light and flip that. That was never going to happen. Well,

and also like you take Tucker out, put in, I don't know, Bryn Forbes. Sure. And just be like, all right, Harden, you're going to have to guard somebody who can create a shot now. And we're going to do something.

We'll put you in picks. Like we'll do anything. He didn't really have to do anything at all. And then on the other end, it's like, why aren't they pressuring him full court? He was so clearly from the first 20 seconds, you could see like he can't run. He's going to jog through this game.

And he's such a brilliant basketball mind. He's going to figure out how to do it. He had no lift. He had no legs. He wasn't able to go to the basket. I think he had three free throws and they were all like, you know, but I, it's just like that part was amazing to me. And then, and then not doubling Durant to me is criminal.

Jeff Green beat you like that. Joe Harris has made a shot in three games. Make anybody else beat you. Durant's NBA jam flames coming out of his head. Yeah, I think it's tough because you get to the end of the game and you want to be just like, this is a pure act of basketball poetry by Durant.

But if I'm the Bucs, I'm killing myself on the way back. I just cannot believe I gave that one away. And you know what? This playoffs, 20 points, it doesn't seem to be a lead anymore. You know what I mean? It just feels like teams have been jumping on teams

in the first quarters and getting up big, and then that team just gets slowly pulled back. It actually felt like this was the game plan for the Nets. It actually felt like no matter how bad the bleeding gets, as long as we're living in the third quarter, mid third quarter, we have this guy who can single handedly win the game, no matter how far down we are.

And that crowd got into it. That crowd did not abandon them. And so I'm kind of impressed because I was like, I've been making fun of Brooklyn fans and stuff like that. It's just because I'm just like, I had the day ones from like six months ago. Yeah. Like they, they actually did lift that team up.

It was impressive. I would have played Giannis' brother over P.J. Tucker. He was probably too tired from celebrating Giannis' like... It was crazy. So just so it doesn't sound reactionary, I watched the halftime show

with Barkley and those guys. Yeah. They were killing the coaching at halftime. They were like, what are these guys doing? They should be up by 30 points. And Barkley was saying, I think they're going to win the title, but this is the stupidest team I've ever seen. This is before all the stupid shit happened.

This is when they were up 20. This is first quarter. Yeah, they were up 20. They were looking good. And they're like, wow, this is some of the dumbest stuff I've watched. I just will never understand when you have somebody who's compromised how you don't use that against the team. And in Harden's case,

it's like this guy can't move. Every other basketball game we watch, they find the weak link and it's like the deer in the wilderness where the pack comes and hunts the deer and takes it down. That's all playoff basketball is. Yeah, you're just hunting dudes.

So how do they not figure out a way to hunt Harden? Because they had P.J. Tucker out there who scored zero points. Right. Maybe that was part of the problem. Well, there was a moment when they took him out and they had Conadon out there. And I don't even know who the fifth guy was. It was Conadon and it was Giannis, Middleton, Lopez, Conadon, and Drew. Yeah. Well, the other thing was there were moments when Harden would get switched on to people and there was never this light bulb moment where the guy would go, oh, James Harden's on me.

I should just go buy him. He can't. He's playing on wood leg. Yeah. No, I don't feel like the Bucks ever really got, you know, I mean, I guess to the Nets credit, they knew when to like get into it, when to get out of it. But like they did, I didn't feel like they got him running a lot. I didn't feel like they've ever made Harden have to do the sprinting that's really hard

on a hamstring injury because what Harden did out there was nuts. He played on a busted hamstring for almost the entire game, but they were saying it during the broadcast, like Steve Smith was saying, or Grant Hill was saying, you know, you, you basically can't sit, right? If you sit down, it's going to tighten up and you can't get back out there and I've watched enough guys like when they have like gamey hamstrings it's all in the sprinting is where it pops that's where they injure and the hard cuts all he had to do was kind of lope around and then every once in a while he's the guy who could hit the backdoor pass to Joe Harris that Tyler Johnson could not see that Tyler Johnson would not have made.

It didn't seem like at halftime. I was like, he shouldn't be out there. It's, this is too much in this game's too intense. And then I did think he navigated a little bit better in the second half. Like he was almost like a safety blanket for Durant. Like Durant obviously just like wanted him,

like they obviously just wanted to go down together if they were going to go down tonight. And I think his impact on the game was one of the more bizarre things I've ever seen because clearly it provided something, but even if statistically it didn't show up at all. We're going to take a break. I have a couple more thoughts on this that I'm excited to tell you.

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Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. Okay. So this is the part of the podcast where I somehow tie this to Larry Bird. So Cleveland, Boston series, 1992. Winner plays the Bulls. The's, the legend's in like a 30-pound back brace. He can barely move anymore.

Seltzer down 3-2 in the series. Game six in Boston. I'm actually there with my dad. And as it turns out, it's the legend's last home game. Bird goes out there. They change the offense. He stands at the top of the key

in the three-point line. And they basically do this gimmicky offense where he's just kind of finding cutters and they're just using passing and he's not moving that much. And the calves are just discombobulated. They're like, what the fuck is this? They don't know what to do.

They, and he's just hitting dudes and the Celts went by 20 and Reggie Lewis and Brian Shaw, all these guys, like they just look great. And, uh, and it's like,

wow, we, we've, we figured it out. This is, Brian Shaw wasn't on that team. It was Dee Brown and Reggie Lewis, all those dudes. So it's like, we figured out, we've unlocked this. Game seven in Cleveland, the Cavs are like, fuck this.

And they just hound him and press him. And he gets the ball and they're like, this fucking guy can't move. What are we doing? And I wonder like with Harden heading into game six, the Bucs are going to look at this tape and be like, what are we doing? Why this guy can't move?

Why can't we just demolish this guy? Which I think is what's going to happen. Yeah, if Ty Liu was coaching the Bucs, I think they would do that. But I don't know. I just feel like the Bucs play this style of basketball that more often than not feels like they could care less who the opponent is and what is happening on the other end of the floor. They're like looking for these certain openings that they go for on all their possessions.

It was even driving me crazy, like how early in the shot clock they were putting up shots when I was just like, bleed this game out. Like make Durant run through screens, like make him tired on the other end of the floor. Stop giving them the ball back with 21 seconds left on the shot clock even if it is getting tight so I don't know I mean like I imagine they will watch tape and I will imagine they will make some adjustments but even so you've now

kicked the door open just a little bit more for Kyrie to come back right yeah and I don't know whether or not Harden is going to be able to feel the right side of his body tomorrow. But it'll be fascinating to see if he can contribute anything in the next two games. Was Kyrie on the bench? I did not see him.

They didn't cut away to him, at least. But it's also weird the way the benches are set up now where guys might be in the back. But there weren't any cutaways to a celebrating Kyrie. I'm throwing this at you. Okay. I think they throw away game six. Well, you would, wouldn't you? But like,

you basically go out and if you go down 20, you like pull the guys, right? I don't play Harden. I don't play Kyrie. And I'm just like, they're going to have to beat us in our house.

We're almost like, it's the first load management playoff game. So what would you do with Durant? Let him start and then pull him if he goes down 20? I'd let him start. Maybe I play hard in the first quarter. I shoot a ton of threes.

I'm just like, let's shoot 50 threes. Let's see if we can go 24 for 50 from three. But let's not exert too much stuff because I think it would be Thursday night would be game six. And then... It's Saturday night is game seven. Saturday night is game seven.

So that's not a ton of recovery time. You just put 48 minutes on Durant. Dude's got a surgically repaired Achilles. And I don't think the Bucks can win in Brooklyn now. I don't think they have it. One of the things they're missing, they don't have... And it's not like the things they're missing, they don't have, and it's not like a Dante DiVincenzo thing.

They're missing like that, not even like a Jordan Clarkson. Just somebody who can come in and score. Like you have Shaq Milton. Yeah. Where it's like you don't know what you're getting from Shaq Milton, but he might hit two threes.

They had a little bit from Forbes in the earlier round. They got a couple of he checked Forbes games, but they don't have a microwave off the bench. And the way they use Lopez, Barkley and those guys we're talking about at halftime. I remember when the Celtics had the Nets first round picks and I was actually watching

the Nets those years and Lopez was single-handedly killing our Jalen Brown pick, whatever year that was. There was like six games where it'd be like the Nets are down two with a minute left and they'd throw it down to Lopez. It'd have three guys on him

and he would somehow drop step, jump hook, and he would tie the game. He'd be like, God, this guy's fucking amazing. This is the greatest season I've ever seen on a 20-win team. And now he doesn't post up at all. He had Harden on him. He had, I don't know,

pick any short guy was on him. And it's just like, he just didn't want any part of it. How do you lose that part of your game? I have to imagine it's instructed. I just think that they are like, play five out. You're like a 38% three-point shooter.

Stand out there. We'll take them. We'll play the numbers on that. Because I just thought actually the key to that game was what I thought was great about the way they were playing in the first half was it just seemed that they were just jamming it right down Brooklyn's throat, which was

always supposed to be the Brooklyn Achilles heel. No pun intended. It was supposed to be the idea that you could get after them in the interior and that you could make them pay. And that's why people have been kind of like entertaining this idea that Philly might be able to give Brooklyn a lot of problems in the Eastern Conference Finals because they're going to play down low and

they're going to punish and punish and get boards and stuff like that. And Milwaukee just seemed completely uninterested in that in the second half. You mentioned like the predictability with Milwaukee. It's like, you ever go through a chess phase where you play chess? I went through a Queen's Gambit phase. I guess that's

how I am. Well, in chess, like you play computer chess and the computer is going to do basically the same type of things. And then after a while, you're like, oh, I'll do this on the computer. And you can kind of, unless the computer starts getting, you start going up, up levels, but there hits a point. Any video games, different things where you're just like... It's like that with FIFA too. Yeah. Where you're just like, I know how to make this computer miss here. Yeah. Yeah. And the computer just never learns. And the computer's just like, I'm the computer. I'm just going to do this.

It's kind of what the Bucs are. The Bucs are just like, ah, this is what we do. We're computer chess. This is a program built in the lab. So do you think it's a Bud thing or do you think it is the way a team is oriented around Giannis thing? Because... So I think I mean, you think about is oriented around Giannis thing. Because...

So I think, I mean, you think about how long has Giannis been playing basketball? 10 years? Yeah. You're not going to... The thing that he doesn't have, and this is one of the things that I think makes Durant so special.

Durant's been playing in games, you know, he's the classic, since he was six years old, was on a team. And when he was eight years old, was on an AAU team. And he's played in a million basketball games. And you have a general feel for certain rhythms of those games, right? The previous game, Roussel and I talked about it.

When Kyrie got hurt, Durant was a little shell-shocked for like a half hour. He could see it on the court because he's smart enough to know, he's doing the calculus. He's like, Oh fuck. Right. Unless I'm amazing in this game. We're not,

we're not going to win. They're actually going to beat us. And it actually took them out of the game. I don't know if Giannis has a basketball kind of reps brain like that, where as the Durant thing is happening, that's where your best player has to be like, Hey, get these fucking guys.

I'll guard them. Yeah. Let me have them. Or I'll take over. I'm just going to get to the basket. I'm going to try to draw fouls on somebody. Like as great as he is, I just feel like there's still like a naivete with him in some of these games.

Well, and this happens a little bit in Philly games, too, with Simmons, where there's like a whole portion of the game that's for Ben Simmons. Yeah. And there's the last five minutes and you basically just have to take what you can get from him on defense and then hope that he gets a tip-in or a backdoor cut

or something like that. I started thinking that in the last five minutes of this game where I was like, Middleton should not have dumped off that pass. Middleton should have gone to the cup for that because, not because Giannis was bound to drop it, but Middleton should not have dumped off that pass. Middleton should have gone to the cup for that because not because Giannis was bound to drop it, but Middleton and Holiday have to accept the fact that the last five minutes of the games

are where their skill sets are the most valuable. We didn't even talk about that play. And going to the free throw. Yeah. Dope. I mean, that would have been a tie game. Last like 20 seconds. Great pass by Middleton.

And Grant Hill was like, what a strip by Jeff Green. It's like, that wasn't a strip. Giannis dropped it. He dropped the ball. He thought he was going to dunk it. I don't think he even thought he was going to get it. I think he thought Middleton was going up for it. I think he was going in for the rebound. And that actually is probably what should have happened. Middleton probably should have gone to the rim and tried to get contact

and he probably would have finished and he's a better free throw shooter than Giannis. And that's just what makes sense in the modern NBA in the last five minutes of the game and I know you want to go down with your best player you know being a participant in it but like I'm watching the way Doc uses Ben and the way he is just like all these things that Ben Simmons does are very valuable I am going to put him in the most valuable places he is not the free throw shooter in the last five minutes of this game you know what I mean and if I've got to put him in the most valuable places. He is not the free throw shooter in the last five minutes of this game. You know what I mean? And if I've got to sub him out, so be it.

Now, I'm not saying Bud should have taken Giannis out, but I just don't know why they repeatedly went to him when there were other options on the floor. It's so funny when the generations pass and you can compare the guy. But this was the Shaq issue for years. And it wasn't until Kobe turned into Kobe that they had to solve for it because then those last four minutes, Kobe and some three-point shooting

and he kind of hoped, you only went to Shaq around the rim, but you didn't go for him because you're always afraid he's going to get fouled. And Giannis now, in these last four minutes, especially with the Nets, where you know they're going to make their free throws, right? Durant missed one that would have given him a 50-point game,

and it was shocking that he missed it. But when Giannis makes a free throw, when Giannis makes the free throw, I'm shocked. In the last three minutes. I just assume he's going to miss them. We talked a little bit earlier about whether or not Durant diminished Giannis at all in this game. I'm a big Drew Holiday fan,

but there was a little bit of like that's why drew's not on like the chris paul level maybe like there was a lack of ability to control like essentially to control the pace and the tempo like the thing that you watch paul and you're just like jesus he just he's in charge of the clock here like he's in charge of everything about the game in terms of its tempo its energy energy, its pace. And Holiday was just kind of like, well, we're going to run our stuff. We'll just run our stuff. I'll run with it. It just didn't feel like he ever put his foot down on

the break at all. And that will be the legacy of this Bucs season if they end up not getting past this round is that... I said this at the time, so I don't feel bad about it. Saying it retroactively, but I just thought they should have gone for Chris Paul. The price was cheaper, and I think he would have had a bigger

impact. And a game like tonight, I just don't think they lose with a 17-point lead, even though Chris Paul has a couple of playoff collapses in his past. I just feel like in this game, especially when, you know, you have the wounded warrior and Harden out there, Chris Paul's just going to figure out how to

exploit that, whereas Drew's not a point guard, you know, he's a guard. He can dribble the ball up. He can do things that resemble point guard stuff, but he's not like a Chris Paul type point guard. And I, I,

I think he was a little diminished tonight too. Yeah. Because at some point if Middleton and Drew are both playing, Harden's got to guard somebody. He didn't want to guard those two. So then it's like, all right, well, Conadon's here. I would clear out for Conadon against James. If James Harden can't move side to side, clear out for Conadon.

Yeah. Clear out for anybody who's copping it up at some player. Oh my God. What do you think? What would you tell? I have a couple of B a player. Oh my God. What do you think? What would you tell? I have a couple of Bucs fans in my life. What would you even tell a Bucs fan buddy after that? Well, I would say that you were in the presence

of absolute historic greatness. So on one hand, I would just be like... That's a good one. This happens. You know what I mean? Like there's been plenty of really good basketball teams. Sometimes they run up against a truly special, great generational player who does something amazing.

And so I guess in some ways, you can't really beat yourself up that badly about it. But on the other hand, I just don't think that you should be blowing 22-point leads if you think you're going to win the title. This was the game. This was it.

Yeah, because they win game six. Yeah, I don't think they can beat them twice. And I would also game. This was the game. This was it. They, yeah. Cause they win game six. Yeah. I don't think they can beat them twice. And I would also say, look, Giannis, it's putting up good stats, man.

34 and 12 tonight, you know, efficient couple hiccups there at the end, but you know, you got something great there. I don't know. I honestly don't know what I would say. I would,

I would lose my mind. I don't know if I'm trying to I would lose my mind. I don't know if... I'm trying to think of the Celtics in what Celtic doppelganger game that was for just an epic collapse. Like, that was an epic collapse. You have 17 with basically like a quarter and a half to go and the other team only has one guy.

That's a collapse. There's just no... I guess you guys just don't have like... It's basically they should have had a prevent offense. It's like, what's the offense that we can run that will grind these guys down, that will grind down the clock, that will stop them from going on major runs?

And instead, they were just like, nope. Drive and kick. Shoot a three. I wonder the legacy of this Bucks team if they get knocked out. And this will be now three years in a row with Giannis where a little like how we look back at those Trailblazers teams from the early 90s the Adelman teams and stuff yeah those Kings teams with C-Web these teams that were right there that had a top five guy whenever you bring up like early 90s basketball like this or whenever

you bring up like basketball history I kind of want to do the diehard line where the one agent Johnson says to the other, like I was in junior high. Well, but we do have this team every decade. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know who the early part of the 2010s version of this was,

but these teams where it's just like, man, it was right there. It was sitting for you guys. Yeah. Usually Harden's on that team, actually. It's true. That's right. And usually Mike D'Antoni is somehow involved with it. Yeah.

Right. This was another legendary James Harden game. I was making the... I mean, his playoff game log on basketballreference.com. It's like 2 for 11, 4 for 15, 3 for 25, for 21., like big games. This one, at least he had an excuse. And I think ultimately I, as kind of inefficient as he was, I actually thought he, it was kind of a cool James Harden moment for the James Harden legacy where it's like,

I'm 40% I'm playing anyway. Well, from the intel I had that he was going to be out for this whole series. Like he just, they thought it was another week at least. And it's the risk of what would have happened momentum wise. And just, you talked about like Durant feeling shell shocks when Kyrie went on, imagine if he had done something to his hamstring out there in the third quarter. Well,

I was thinking about that. I don't think Brooklyn recovers from that. Even if they may actually get like a more healthy player or explosive player on the floor in exchange. Well, and also that leads to that whole segment of the basketball media community being like, this is why it's a businessman. Right.

James is out there. The people tell me this is why he's putting his body in the line. Now he has no hamstring. He manages the load managers. That's right. Now he has to get an artificial hamstring to replace this blown out hamstring. Yeah.

So I think the Bucs, I think the Nets throw away game six. And then they put it in. I think the Bucs went by like 22. Two days later, now we have Harden with four more days rest on the hamstring. Maybe he's like 75%. The key for him is if he can at least have enough lift to hit that step back three, then all the other stuff. But he didn't even have enough lift to do that. So, um, and you have to hope that Jeff Green somehow comes back to under earth.

Well, that was my other question. Can they win this? Think about how they won this game. They barely won. Katie had one of the greatest playoff games I've ever seen in my life. Jeff Green and Blake Griffin had a combined 41 and hit a bunch of threes

and it's like, is that realistic that that's going to happen again? Yeah, and I think that probably what we'll hear in the postgame commentary from the Bucks folks is like about a bunch of calls because it did seem like the reffing was getting under their skin for a while. So yeah, I think you you're right i think they probably take six but like i just i have no confidence that the bucks could win in brooklyn in game seven well the fouls think about

what's happened in that building to them already they've gotten like completely trashed in the first two games with the second game being an almost historic embarrassment. And then they threw away a 22-point lead in Game 5. The fouls were 24 for Milwaukee, including 11 for Tucker and Giannis, and 19 for the Nets. I wonder what Rich Kleiman's count of the fouls were for tonight on P.J. Tucker. Kleiman's high-fiving people. He's like, Twitter pressure works, guys.

I meant to ask you, when you're watching, are you impressed by what Nash has been doing? I didn't love the Harden thing tonight. Do you think that was his call? No, I think this is a great player thing. Larry Bird was like this too, and he was the Pacers coach.

A really, truly great former player, I think looks at stuff differently and they think about it and they go like, well, I would have done it. Yeah. Yeah. Would I have played in this situation? The answer is always going to be yes.

I just think maybe you just play in the second half if you're going to do it, or maybe you figure out, you just bring them, you kind of lose or bring them off the bench to get the momentum from, uh, from the crowd, bring them in. Like it's like the Hannibal Lecter reveals, you know, seven minutes into the first quarter and the crowd's like, Oh, James heard it. Oh my God. And you get that bump.

I wouldn't have started them. But, and I, you know, Grant Hill said this and I guess it's true, but they're like, well, if you sit down, the hammy gets tight. Don't they have million-dollar sports equipment to make that not happen? Can't he just go on a bike? Can't he put, like, an electromagnetic hamstring shield on his thing so that he doesn't stiffen up? They have those, like, muscle guns now where they, like, rub them against the hamstring. But, yeah, I guess it must've just been like, just like overall, like keeping your,

your like heart rate up and like, you're just, you're lathered up, man, you're playing. So I guess that must've been what he was referring to. It seems like very old wives Taylor to me where it's like, it's like,

yeah, if I'm playing pickup, it's good for me to be out there. But these are professional athletes. It's a billion dollar industry. This is what I'm like when I'm potting. I'm like, I can't sit down. I got to do three pods a day. Then my voice

box will collapse. Just start the next one. Start the Zoom. Let's go. Here's my prediction. I have Bucks winning game six by 22. Then the Nets winning a game that was close,

but gets away from the Bucks and ends up being 12 point win for the Nets. Incredibly plausible. Yeah, very plausible. And then is your team showing up? Yes. Yeah. I think the reason why this series is really annoying

is that there is no part of me that's like, man, maybe Atlanta's got our number. Right. Atlanta shoots 36% and wins. Your defense is there. Your defense is where it needs to be. And you just need two good and beat games. Yeah.

And I don't understand the science of his meniscus right now. Like, he just is playing on like a torn meniscus and like is awesome, but seemed to lose it a little bit in the second half the other night. So we'll see. I'm sure that they're going to, I'm very, very confident that they will win the next game.

What was your favorite, uh, zero in Ben Simmons's fourth quarter box score, the zero field goals or the zero free throws? Which one, which one were you more partial to? He does a lot on the other end of the floor. He does a lot.

I wish, I wish we had somebody at the ringer who was like incredibly flawed but we were just pointing to like a fantasy if fantasy was like really good at podcasting but half the time just didn't start the zoom and didn't record it we were like look man you know it's it's tough those zooms like you're just making excuses for I don't even know what the real life defense honest. Sean did a talk for the last

28 minutes of the rewatchables, but it was great to have him out there. He sent me a Chris. He kept Bill. All right, Chris Ryan, my rewatchables co-host. We did city slickers this week. You could check that out.

We have some good ones coming up this summer as well. Uh, it's fun to talk basketball with you. Yeah, that was fun. Thanks, man. All right.

Good to see you. All right. We're taping this piece of the podcast. It is a late Tuesday morning Pacific time. A pleasure to have Jonathan sharks here from the ringinger. He has not been on a while. He's been going through a lot of personal stuff, which he's written about for The Ringer. He's talked about it a little bit. He has not talked about it here, but first of all, how are you feeling? Hey, I'm good. Thanks for having me on. It's a weird process for sure. So I'm going through chemotherapy, how I do it or how my doctors have it. It's one

week on two weeks off. So it's kind of like you have the week on that just like horrible, then you have like two weeks of normal, you kind of squeeze in basically. And you, so initially you thought you had COVID and post COVID systems and you weren't feeling good and you go in and you find out that's not what it was, that you actually have some sort of cancer that they can't even figure out what it is. And you're in this, how many weeks was that where you didn't even know what was wrong with you? Oh man, it was like six weeks. So we had to go to the hospital three times before they figured it out. It was nuts. It was like, it was just an absolutely crazy experience. I don't know how much you want to get into it, but like...

No, let's get into it because so many people have asked me about how are you feeling, what's going on, that I just thought it'd be easier if we talked about it here. Sure, sure. Well, I appreciate all the support I've gotten. Some folks have reached out to me, sent stuff. It's been awesome. So the kind of cancer I have, sarcomas are 1% of cancer cases in the US. I have a sarcoma. It's called a Ewing's-like sarcoma. And that's like 30% of that 1%. And then of the Ewing's-like sarcoma, there's like 50 of them. So I'm one of those 50. And then one of those 50, I think they said most often it happens for teenagers. So it's a very rare 1%, 1%, 1% of 1%. Jesus. So you know something's wrong, you know something's wrong,

and you can't put your finger on it for like how many months? How many months did you just not feel right? About two months. Because like doctors, what I realized, doctors are a lot like bloggers. They go off patterns. So they're like, okay, if this, then this. If you give them some symptoms that have no normal patterns, they're kind of clueless. And they're passing you off to different doctors like, okay, maybe this specialist, maybe this specialist. That's this big circle. And then what we realized is when you've got a weird case of symptoms,

you want to be in the hospital because the doctors come to you otherwise you're going to different doctors taking weeks yeah every time you go to a doctor it's like oh more blood tests i would say like the blood test it's like the hammer and the nail that's what doctors know is blood tests right and you're doing this over and over again for six weeks to two months. And you're a young guy in your early thirties. You just had a, you have a one-year-old kid, you're married. This is, this is supposed to be your peak health years. And then all of a sudden it flips, but you're, you're feeling better. Like, I don't want to say there's, you know, who knows with this stuff, but you're feeling better than you did a month ago.

For sure. So what they've told me is that the cancer I have responds well to chemotherapy. The concern is because it has spread to multiple places. There's not one primary tumor. They'll never be able to say you're cancer free. So it's always going to be like, this is something that could happen. It could come back. And if it comes back, that'd be harder. So that's kind of where I am right now is I'm going to the first round of cancer chemotherapy. And then it's like, if it comes back, if it comes back again, that's where it gets tricky. And your wife has been documenting a lot of this on the CaringBridge site. And that's what it's called, right? CaringBridge. Yeah. Yeah. I think the link is on my Twitter account. I can put it back up there. Yeah. She's been blogging. She's been

awesome. It's been, it's been a very, very, um, interesting experience. I got to write about on the ringer. That was pretty cool. Um, I was actually a little surprised I could sneak in some scripture on the ringer. Hey, it was a great piece. We were proud to run it. You know, when stuff like this happens, you realize how many people you're affecting day to day, right? With like, you're thinking like, I'm writing about basketball and doing a podcast. And for the most part, you don't know who's out there consuming it. And then something like this happens and it's like, holy shit. I didn't, you almost like don't realize how you affect people day to day.

For sure. I think mostly with the podcast, right? Cause you're in don't realize how you affect people day to day. For sure. I think mostly with the podcast, right? Cause you're in people's ear and you're just talking and then like, they feel like they know you and it's like, they're affected. It's the same way for me. Like with some podcasts I listened to, if one of them got sick, I would be like, oh my gosh. And then it's like, wow, you have no idea from our end how you're affecting people.

These big groups of people are listening and it's kind of, it's pretty cool. Yeah. And you've been, you've somehow managed to keep following basketball. How much of that is it habit? How much of it is take your mind off stuff? Obviously you're stuck in hospitals, stuff like that. So the TV's on, but how, how have you been able to follow hoops at the level you're following it?

Because it seems like it like all your takes seem like nothing's going on. Well, it's definitely a little bit of both where it's just nice to have that distraction. Though, unfortunately in the hospital, they only show the cooking network. So I'm in the hospital for like, apparently there was a lot of like back and forth and they decided cooking shows are acceptable. Nothing else is acceptable in the chemo rooms. So I've just been really picking and choosing series. That's kind of been the key for me. I can't follow all of it quite as well.

I've been finding the ones that have been really interesting. And it was cool for having Mavs Clippers in my hometown. And that was an awesome series to follow. That was just greatness. So let's talk about the Mavs because they were in the news this week. There's a piece in The Athletic about dysfunction in the front office.

That includes somebody who works in the front office who's been on this podcast a bunch of times. Bob Vulgaris, yeah. And I was expecting something like that to happen just because when they get bounced two years in a row, they have this potential super duper star on their team if he's not already there and he's got the super max coming. And just in general, um, there had always been rumors about who's, who's Cuban listening to how many people, how many chefs are in the kitchen, things like that.

That was a pretty ugly piece. It was definitely one-sided. It was definitely a hit piece. Yeah. You could see the knife. You could see it. By the anti-Bob guys, not to defend my guy, but you could see what the sources were. He didn't talk for it. They left out some pretty important stuff. Like the fact that he was working for the Mavs for the year leading up to the Luca draft. And was, I think I know for a fact, cause him and I were talking about it. I think me, him and KOC were like the top three Luca fans said into that draft. So it's hard for me to imagine he didn't have some sort of role in the Luca thing. But when you read a piece like that, I read it and I'm always like, all right, who, who has the most to gain? What are

the sources going on? It does seem like there's a power struggle. Do you think Luca even cares? He's going to sign the super max anyway, and it'll all shake out in his favor. But do you think he even knows about this stuff? I thought that was one of the funnier parts of it where they're kind of using Luca as the knife. It's like, Luca's not worried about some stats guy on the front office he barely ever talks to. Right. He doesn't have strong takes on the front office politics.

It's kind of like, they call it back in the Kremlinology. You read a piece like that and you're like, where are the power centers? Who's doing it? It's kind of interesting

in that sense, I think, really. It's like behind the hidden hand of the piece. Yeah, because the only way to get the Mavs fans to actually care about this story,

because what do they care who's deciding whatever? Cuban's ultimately the guy who decides everything. only way to get the Mavs fans to actually care about this story, because what do they care who's deciding whatever? Cuban's ultimately the guy who decides everything. The way to get them to care is to be like, hey, this guy, the shadow GM, he could jeopardize our chances to keep Luka. It's like, really? Is that really what's going on here? You think this guy is going to jeopardize Luka if he can sign for 250 million or whatever it is? I think you're fine with Luka either way. My first thought was,

if Luka's orchestrating a power play, it's not to get out some random stats guy in their front office. It's about the coach. If he really wanted to make a move like that, that's where he would use his political capital. I think he's too young for that still. Play those kind of games.

He's 22. He's a baby. You think like the stats and some of the stuff the Mavs have done the last few years, they have one top 60 player.

They might have one top 70 player. If you're actually like Russo and I as an exercise made the list of the top 40 guys in the league, just who we thought. There's only one Maverick on it. You can guess Porzingis was not in the top 40. I wouldn't put him in the top 50. I don't know if he's in the top 75. Their third best player was Tim Hardaway. They made the trade for, uh, the Richardson Curry trade that, uh, I don't know whose idea that was, but that trade really backfired on them. I thought Curry was important for them last year. And Richardson was unplayable by the time we got

to the playoffs. But, um, when you talk about the advanced analytics with them, that team offensively was a juggernaut the way they built, whatever they tried to build around Luca actually really did work during the regular season. I think in the playoffs, they ended up going against this Clipper team that wanted to play them and matched up amazingly well with them. But would you say that considering the lack of talent on the roster beyond Luka, it's actually like fairly successful

however they constructed this weird roster, right? Or do you disagree? I think so. I mean, I think the season as a whole, you look at it more like you kind of wished a guy like Jalen Brunson would take a step forward, him not taking a step forward. To me, when I look at the season, I think for me, what concerns me the most about the Mavs is like the deeper structural issues that this piece kind of implies. So I remember texting a few years ago when I first kind of heard about Bob,

maybe really having a hand in it. And I didn't really think anything of it at the time, but now I think about it, it is kind of weird that one guy, because normally, right, when you have a new GM, he brings in all his people, right? So he has his assistant GMs, his scouting directors, his scouts. It's a whole front office change. That didn't happen. And that to me is the concern is like, is this franchise being run in a functional way? Because I'll give you some like Mavs history. Gerson Rosas, who's the Wolves GM, he actually came to Dallas about seven years ago

to be the new GM. A little bit kind of like Bob where that they want a new voice in the front office, but he had no authority to hire people and fire people. So he lasts three months and just quits because he's like, I don't want to be the GM in name only. I want to be the actual GM. I want to be the GM. And so I kind of felt like the same thing happened again, where the body rejected the transplant almost.

We're like, we need a new voice in the front office. We're bringing someone in, but we're not actually clearing out the front office. And when that happens, you have these power structures. And that to me is like, that seems more than whether or not Bob or Diane Nelson should be making the decisions. Having that kind of fractured front office seems like a concern to me, big picture.

Well, and I agree with everything you just said. The other thing is the Porzingis trade, where they went all in early on a trade that I really liked. I would be the first one to admit it. I thought a great idea at the time. I was not a Dennis Smith,

junior fan. I didn't see how he was ever going to be an all-star point guard. So I didn't care about giving up him. They were giving up two picks that it was so clear. Luca was going to be a great player that it's like, well, I don't really care about those picks. You're always going to be at least a 500 team with this guy.

They really, and they got Hardaway back who I always thought Hardaway became kind of underrated because of his salary was so high where it's like, oh man, that Tim Hardaway number. It's like, all right, but Tim watch,

watch the games. Tim Hardaway is actually pretty good. He can create his own shot. He can do three stuff like that. I thought it was a great trade. The reason not to make that trade is the injury history of tall guys, right? And he was already coming off a major knee injury and you can't fault them for making it. I would have done it. But the flip side of it is, is it worth it to just trade for these giant guys to pay a premium price or close to

premium price when we have this overwhelming history that if you're seven foot two or taller, you're just going to break down with really no exceptions other than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. What do you think? I mean, definitely the KP injury thing hangs over the whole franchise now. And I think what the structural limitations, what was going on at the time was, yeah, we have Luka. And this is another concern of mine. I don't feel like Rick Carlisle develops young players very well.

So yes, Luka was already developed, right? There was not much developing to do. So you're trading picks that theoretically could improve your long-term roster, but those picks have less value in Dallas because their coach is not going to play young players or he's going to kill their confidence. And that to me, when you look at this team, they don't really have a natural way to develop an infrastructure around Luka because they don't develop young players very well. So the KP trade really kills them because they give up those picks, but I do worry that those picks would have less value for the Mavs than most franchises.

And I thought was interesting in that piece. So the initial thing was where, what was it? That Harala Bob tells Luca to calm down, right? That was kind of the start of the piece. On the court. Yeah. Like that moment mattered. And then I'm like, well, to be fair, Luka had 15 tactical fouls this year.

I mean, someone should be telling him to calm down. I don't think Carlisle can do it. That's what I, because you saw in the piece, they were saying Carlisle's like kind of conceded control to Luka to be like, he's the future. I got to get on this guy's ship. But it's like, I would like a coach who challenges Luka. Yeah.

Who has a relationship with him off the court, who can like help him grow his game and demand more from him. Whereas right now it kind of feels like the Mavs have this thing where Luka does

whatever he wants and Carl coach the rest of the roster. And that seems unsustainable to me too. Yeah. And I mean, I think he's the best

22-year-old player I've ever seen in my life. I really do. It would be between him, Magic, and LeBron. Yeah. I think those are the three. And I think he's the most polished offensively out of those three.

I mean, you think about LeBron, who I think was that age, maybe 06, 07 range. That was the Pistons year. The 48th special year. Yeah. Yeah, and when he got hot in that Pistons game,

it was so awesome. I remember I stayed up and wrote a column that was, it was so awesome. I remember I, I stayed up and wrote a column that night. I was so enthralled by it, but what was cool about it was it was this young guy who just kind of had a heat check. He made some jumpers and teams were laying off him and basically daring him to shoot.

And that was the moment where you're like, Oh, this guy might have real greatness in him. Luke has already passed that point that that 48 point came against, against, uh, Detroit. Luke has done versions of that for the That 48-point game against Detroit, Luka's done versions of that for the last couple years.

I mean, he's already more polished and finished offensively. I think part of it has to do with just his coming up and playing as a 17-year-old guy against Gromit. Yeah, I mean, he's really like an eight-year pro. Yeah, he really is. You almost have to think of him as like a 27-year-old. And I think like, when I think about how he can get better, which we've talked about in the past, it really comes down to his three-point shot.

And if he has that, and maybe there's some sort of a low-post thing as he gets a little stronger where you could see it like where he's punishing Beverly. I guess those were the two areas that he could get a little better at. But to me, I look at him and I feel like he's like 90% done as an offensive player.

I don't really know other than becoming a 45% three-point shooter and developing like the Jordan Kobe fall away on the low post kind of shot. Ooh, he had a little bit in the Clippers series. Those fadeaways. So those would be the two things he would add. Other than that, is there anything else he even needs? I would say get in better shape one. that was something for me good point being at the games in Dallas I hadn't been the games all season you could really see it but like he was tired a lot like the second quarter he's like sitting by himself in the on this on the bench like just

tired that's one I would say then, playing off the ball a little bit, being more of a catch-and-shoot guy. I think for him, really, the challenge now is psychological. It's leading a team. It's not really the game itself. It's the games beyond the game. And I think we all agree KP hasn't been what he hoped he would be. And I'm not sure

KP... KP, I think, in a lot of ways, is the wrong messenger with the right message, right? Like Luka at some point has to make sure other guys feel involved and comfortable. Whether that's like giving them more shots, letting the flow of the game, or just like managing their egos, right? I think that's the next step for him is really learning how to run a team and managing guys' personalities and keep making them feel involved and important.

And KP doesn't feel involved and important, and maybe that's for the best, but whoever he's going to be as his number two has to feel like they're involved. I agree with that. So this goes down to what Luca could get better at. I think it's tough when you're a 22 year old kid and you're still figuring out what your limits are as a player to then also think about how to make everybody, how to reach everybody else's limits at the same time. Right. That's something. So that's something that maybe when he's 27,

he will have a better grasp of. I think to me, it's a lot like the Harden thing where Harden on Houston, even though that team was succeeding, it was like, are we, is he, is he making these guys better? Or did they just go and find guys who had these specific talents tailored to him? A little like LeBron, some of those Cleveland years where, you know, Kyrie was the wild card. Kyrie could, he was that second scoring option. He could do stuff.

But like, did LeBron make Kevin Love better? I feel like Kevin Love was way worse by the time he was done with four years of LeBron. I think it's tough when somebody has the ball that much for other guys to play at that.

So, Luka's got to figure that. At the same time, like, you can't post up Chris Stapps. He has, he's a zero in the low post now. I don't know what happened to that.

I felt like the guy in the Knicks had this inside outside game before he got hurt. That was really interesting, right? It was almost like a face-up game. Like what Jokic has, where he can beat people off the dribble or he could pull up. And where did that go? Part of it is the, the love Chris Bosch thing, right? Where you're stuck in the corner, you're out of rhythm. You're not touching the ball enough to feel part of things.

So when you do get your two customary post-ups, you're not feeling it. You're not touching the ball. There's just something I feel like, this goes back to the Harden thing too, where if you're not touching the ball all the time, not some of the time, you just feel out of the offense. And when you're asked to produce, you don't really have it. And you talk about Kevin Love, like think how much time LeBron

took managing Kevin Love. Remember that whole like fit out, fit in thing? All those like weird Instagram posts. I feel like when you were at the level LeBron was at in Cleveland, your job is mostly psychological. It's mostly getting everyone else, keeping them happy. And it's a lot of work. And that's where leading a team is. And I think that's where Luka... I kind of wrote my piece of The Ringer. It's like, these are Luka's wild years. This is where he's like, I'm going for MVPs. I want 40-point triple doubles. I'm the man. Why would I give the ball up? And it's like, I almost feel like there's this natural progression where he has to learn, okay, at some point I have to involve other guys in the flow of the offense.

But that might not only come until he's lost year after year after year in the playoffs. Yeah, it's tough. If we just did as a thought exercise, what's built the perfect, this would be a good piece for you, actually. I'm building the perfect team around Luka using different players

in the NBA roster. I'm not even positive I know what that team should look like because I do think it would help him to have his version of Kyrie right that guy who doesn't necessarily like the point guard who could guard the other team's point guards kind of what Brunson was the poor poor man's version

of this year for them somebody who has the speed and the defense to guard somebody else's point guard but doesn't necessarily need the ball on offense. So Drew Holiday would have been the perfect guy, right? Like you look at the way he's used in Milwaukee.

To me, that's like the perfect sidekick for Luka. You'd want those Maxi Kleber type probably a better version of those type of guys too. I think those, like that Atlanta team, if you switch Luka with Trey Young, would that be a good team for him?

I kind of feel like Bogdanovich would be like a perfect guy for him to play with, right? Oh, I think it goes beyond that because so I did a profile on Bogdanovich like when he first came in the league. I remember talking to him. He's like, yeah,

me and Luka talk all the time because Bogdanovich was a EuroLeague MVP. I would love an older European player who could just kind of mentor him a little bit, kind of break down the game. Like let's, I would love to bring Luka. I would love to bring Goran Dragic in next year. An underplayed story for the Mavs this year was letting go of JJ Barea. Barea actually played a really important role on that team in terms of he's a guy everybody respected. He had the skins on the wall, magnetic personality. I remember talking to someone who's like, who does Luka listen to in his life? And they were like, I don't know, his girlfriend, maybe J.J.

Right. Well, I thought they should have gotten Dragic. They should have gotten Dragic before the bubble, you know, leading into the bubble season when Dragic was a free agent. There were rumors about it, right? Yeah. That weird failed trade. I would say if I was going to get guys for Luka,

I would love a Devin Booker type. So Booker can play off the ball super, super well, right? And then when Luka's out, he can control the offense too. So he can still get his points without letting Luka give the ball up. Like give me a Booker type and a Mikhail Bridges type, a three and D wing guard like three positions and shoot. Those

are my two guys I'd want. Well, it's funny how Phoenix is the perfect team fell into place for them, right? But you think like it was two different GMs. Ryan McDonough was the one who drafted Booker, Aiton, and made the Bridges trade. Yeah.

And then James Jones- Though he was there at the end, Jones was for the Bridges-Aiton year. Right. He was on the staff. He was on the staff. And then James Jones was the one who made the Chris Paul trade happen.

But then you look at the team now, and I think James Jones was the one who drafted Cam Johnson too, who was another important wing guy. He was also the one who didn't draft Tyrese Halliburton or, and also turned down deals from Boston and Dallas who were trying to move up into that 10 spot. And they took that Jalen Smith is not playing.

But I think when you look at the construction of that team, I don't think they knew it at any point until Chris showed up, but then it's like, Oh, this is, this team makes total sense. We have Aiden does his stuff. We have shooters. We have Bookeron does his stuff. We have shooters.

We have Booker as the second creator. And then Chris is like the maestro. He's like the chef in the kitchen, just using all the ingredients of this team. That's where we need to get to with Luka. And it might, honestly, with this Porzingis deal, he's got three years left after this season, right? So going forward, he has three years left

at almost a hundred million. And I don't think he's a fit. I don't think it's going to work. I don't think. Let's, let's take a break and we'll talk about that quick. So Porzingis trade value. I think he does, but I think they would have to take back somebody else's expensive something, right? So the best case scenario for them

would be if they could just get Al Horford for him and hope OKC was willing to just roll, basically roll the dice with three years of poor Zynga's, put him next to KOC's guy, Poku, get a big brother for Poku. SGA is there. They're going to get a high lottery pick in this draft. They have a couple other pieces.

I'm not positive why OKC would do that. I almost feel like Dallas would have to throw in something else. But that's a possibility. Kevin Love, I think, is another one where it's like, we'll take your headache, you take ours. You shook your head. You're out on Kevin Love. I mean, talk about a guy who's never healthy,

plays even less defense than Chris Stapps. Right. And then there's the Kemba piece, whether that's something that... Kemba, the attraction would be his years, a deal shorter than Porzingis. So he's, you'd basically roll the dice this year, hope his knees healthy. And then next year he's an expiring contract, even if it doesn't work out and has trade value. So I think those would be the three options, unless there was some Charlotte buzz, which I

could not substantiate, but Charlotte's a team that doesn't mind taking on these big contracts because they can never get a free agent. They need a center. I think they have a little bit of cap space because beyond those contract comes off and a couple other people, they basically have Hayward and Rozier and then a bunch of smaller contracts. They also lost the Zeller contract.

So could there be like a PJ Washington and another contract for Porzingis? I would drive KP to Charlotte for Miles Bridges. I will go. Oh yeah. But see, I don't think Charlotte would do that, right? And that's how Porzingis' trade value has cratered to the point that even if that was possible in a salary cap, I don't think Charlotte would trade Miles Bridges straight up for Porzingisis. I take PJ Washington. I'd do that. That's because that, that wouldn't make sense just because I, those guys wouldn't really make sense together.

Um, I think Porzingis is worth betting on. If I was like in that Charlotte, Orlando. I think if you're, yeah, if you're a small, one of those Detroit,

I'm not going to get a star free agent, no matter what you kind of have to roll the dice a little bit. Sometimes kind of like what happened with Hayward last year. So we both think Porzingis is salvageable, but the injury history thing is just completely abjectly terrifying. So you're going to have to take,

you're either going to have to take one of my salary cap problem back or I'm not really giving you anything. You know, it's like I'll absorb his contract, but you're not getting an asset from me. Even PJ Washington feels like kind of pricey. Would you do that? I don't think I would do Kemba though. Like I talk about injury history. Would you do that if you were Boston? I think I would, if I was Boston. Yeah. Because younger. Yeah. Could just, cause I'm kind of stuck with this roster. I can't add to it.

I can't really do anything with Kemba and Tatum and Brown. I can't salary cap wise. There's really no way for me to improve it in any other way. The only other piece to have is the market smart thing, which we'll see if they cash in. Now that Brad's running the show, we'll see how he actually feels about market smart. If they trade Marcus within the next six weeks.

Like, oh, that's how Brad felt about Marcus these last seven years. Let's talk about the two games that happened last night. So I went to the Clippers game. I went to game four. That was a heck of a game to be. Clippers Jazz. Really, really intense. When the Clippers have their A game and granted it didn't,

they couldn't even get a full four quarters out of it. They kind of petered out there for half a quarter, but man, that first quarter they were playing. So Kawhi was playing so hard. They were scrambled around on D they, they really, the,

the pace and the athleticism they had, when you see them like that, you're like, oh, this is a finals team. The problem is it doesn't seem like they can figure out how to do that every game. So it's like they have these gears. Their fifth gear, I think, is probably the highest level of basketball in the West.

I still like the Suns more because I just think the Suns are way more consistent. I trust them more. I think they've proven it with the seven-game winning streak. It feels like you think they went 8-8 to start the season and they've basically been a 7-50 winning percentage since. I just trust their consistency. But the A game of the Clippers is really impressive,

especially if just Morris or Jackson can make shots. So they know they have Kawhi, they know they have George. Just one of those two can make it. But what did you see last night? What jumped out to you? I mean, that was like, this is what the Clippers are supposed to be, right? This is what we spent the last two years

talking about and waiting for, was this kind of dominant performance where they're going small they're playing morris at the five they're flying around the court kawaii's everywhere you're putting lighter guys in kawaii she's leaving a small guy on paul george and he's having a great game that was just like that was the master plan on the court i mean i just wonder like the morris at the five thing that's underplayed in terms of that's very Golden State-like. They almost need a nickname at some point if they're going to play that well.

When you have Morris, Batum, Kawhi, Paul George, and you're like, man, that's four two-way players. You look at Utah, you're like, where's their two-way wings to guard these guys? Mitchell's guarding Paul George. You're playing Ingles, Bogdanovich. Smaller guys, they're just getting crushed. O playing Ingles, Bogdanovich, smaller guys. They're just getting crushed. O'Neal kind of fell off in that one too. That was just like, that was what it's supposed to look like. It's just, can they be consistent with it?

It seems hard to really believe in them given their history. I was so happy to be at a game in person. I just pick up so much more stuff than you do on TV. And what I think if I'm Utah now, granted, no Conley, the first four games has to be mentioned. said, what jumped out at me in person was Utah was, was basically forced to give up stuff, right? They like, they, they just didn't guard Batum. They weren't guarding whoever was in the left or right corner. They were always leaving somebody open because they were sending so much help to Kawhi and Paul George. And they were so worried about the top of the key in the perimeter and guys like Bogdanovich just being put in pick and roll and then being able to be tortured.

They kept luring Gobert out. And at some point they were like, all right, well, if we're going to win this game, we're just leaving the left corner open. So Batum missed a couple, Reggie Jackson missed a couple, and they kind of got back into it just because those guys were missing wide open shots. But to me, that's a terrible sign when your strategy is basically like nothing else has worked. If we're just going to give you corner threes and hope you don't make them. Not a good sign. I mean, the math is like, we're just going to play zone. That's what I got to in that last series. How was seeing Kawhi in person? That game six he had against Dallas, where he had 45 points

and guarded a loop that was one of the best guys I've ever seen. Yeah. And he was at that level. I mean, he tweaked his knee near the end, but apparently he's fine. But I think, so I saw him last year in person too. He just seems way healthier to me this year than he did the last two. From an explosiveness, athleticism standpoint. That dunk over favors? My God. That was like the new greatest moment of my son's life. That was my son's first playoff game. And the dunk, because he went up and the guy went to meet him. And then you forget that he has these Freddy Krueger hands and he kind of like brought his hand back so it didn't get blocked and then cocked it. And it was just like, everyone just went nuts. It was about as excited. I was there

for some great Blake Griffin dunks during the Blake Griffin dunking heyday. So it was on par with that. But athletically, him and George just are so superior to everybody that Jazz has. But there's this interesting wrinkle, though.

Gobert was terrible in the first half. In the second half, he really affected the game on both ends. They moved him closer to the basket so that basically he had alley-oops whenever he wanted if anybody threw him to him. But then on defense, it was interesting to watch Kawhi and George not fuck

with him. Like when they would get into the lane and you would think they were going to attack him, they basically made a would think they're going to attack them, they just, they basically made a team decision not to try to attack them. So they'll just, they'll either kick it back out or they'll just actually dribble out. They won't challenge and they won't go at him. It's like, they're conceding that he's Bill Russell and he changes, you can see it. Like he just changes the body language of people as they're in the paint where there's drives that normally somebody would take a layup and they just kind of back off it. And that's why he's the defensive player of the year. But I think he's been really uneven this series. That game yesterday is a good example. Horrendous

first half, really impactful in the second half. But I thought they were able to basically not have to worry about him too much when they're making threes like they were, right? Yeah, I mean, it's just a matchup, right? Like, I feel like Gobert, if you play a traditional big, he'll dominate that matchup. There's a guy in the guard and the paint, he can kind of control the whole lane. When you spread him out,

because I think with most defensive centers, oh, we'll spread him out and they're useless. Like, Gobert is still a good player when he's spread out, but he can't control the game anymore. Because he has to guard the three-point at some point. He has to get out there to guard a Marcus Morris or Nick Batum. So for the Jazz, it becomes we can still play Gobert,

but we have to have two or three players better than him to win this series. And that's where losing Conley just kills them. Because they only have Mitchell right now to get anything going. Or maybe try to get one of the wings. We're still on our text. It has to like,

it's like a lot to ask Jordan Clarkson. Well, you know, the Clippers seems to have figured him out. And I think Clarkson, we saw this happen to Lou Williams over the course of the last decade, where these heat check guys that if you just see him once they can get hot. But over the course of a series,

the team kind of unlocks what to do against them. And with him, they're just, they're throwing length in them. They don't want them to shoot threes. And then when he goes to the basket, you could actually see they, they overcommit to take away the baseline pass from him. Cause his move is either he shoots a three or he drives hard to the paint and then kicks out. Yeah. They were, they were basically blocking the baseline pass. Basketball has evolved to this point now where people are anticipating the kickout passes

and jumping almost out of bounds to block them out. And I thought they really, really bothered him. Now, he's a guy that sometimes you can play great defense on him and he can still have 20 and a quarter. But I do feel like this is part of the Conley thing, right? Not having Conley, suddenly Clarkson's not a heat check guy anymore. You actually really need him offensively.

And I don't know if he's reliable that way. He's one of those, you might have me tonight, I might not do anything. And that's what last night they couldn't afford. Okay, this will get us in trouble, but I'm just curious. How do you see a Clippers Sun series kind of shaken out? Like, do you think the Clippers would stay small against the Suns or play Zubach more? It's a great question. I was thinking about it last night, trying to figure out if they would just continue to go small and try to pull Aiton away from the basket. Right. And I,

I think you almost use Aiton's inexperience against him with this stuff, right? Like you don't want to become, if the Zubats is out there, he's like, okay, I get this. I'm just playing another center. But if now you have Marcus Morris or Kawhi at the five or all these weird things you can do, then what does he do? And I don't think on the other end, he's advanced enough to be able to attack people. Yeah, that's the question because can he downmate the mismatch the other way? Because otherwise he'll switch to pick and

roll. He has nowhere to roll to the basket. I will say this. I got excited. Russell and I did the pod Sunday night and I really started getting excited about Klipper's sons and Chris's history. The Klipp stuff like that. There's a lot of variables to Klipper's sons that I love. The fact that the sons have

young swing guys to throw at Kawhi and George. I think Bridges is of variables to Cooper's sons that I love. Like the fact that the sons have young, young swing guys to throw at Kawhi and George. Like I think Bridges is excellent. I really like him. He's amazing. Crowder is not going to be afraid of either of those guys. Johnson's kind of a wild card, but then you have the, the Clips

have just multiple dudes to throw at Chris, right? He's going to have to play defense in that series. He'll, Reggie Jackson, you kind of know right away last night. He didn't have it. He played. He was a corpse. Chris Paul. Remember that whole thing. So right. You have the Rondo thing. You have Patrick Beverly. Who's ready to start a fight for sure. I was telling my son last night, he loved to play basketball, but I was telling him like, watch Beverly during like these dead ball stuff. Watch during the fouls. Watch how

he kind of follows Mitchell around. Mitchell goes to talk to the coach. Beverly follows, stands next to him. His whole, he's like a hockey player. His whole goal is to just annoy Mitchell. And it was working. And at one point they started jawing back and forth for like a minute and the refs were kind of watching it.

But it was like, they're both so good at the under the radar, talking under your breath, like, ah, fuck you. Fuck you. You like, they're going back and forth, but it didn't really seem over the top, but Beverly, Beverly with Chris, he'll,

he'll try to get in his head. The thing is Beverly is not that good anymore. And I think Chris would actually torch him. Yeah. I think Chris would torch him too. They're actually going to need Rondo. I was watching the huddle last night with Rondo. Rondo wasn't even dressed to play.

He was wearing like shorts that were different than the Clippers shorts and just was checked out wearing a hoodie and was on the bench. But it just basically, it seems like they told him we don't need you this series. I think they will need him for our son series, right? Yeah. What I'm looking at is how would you match up against Kawhi and George? Like, I think you would think, oh, let's put Mikael Bridges on Paul George. But can Jay Crowder hold up against Kawhi? That's a tough matchup for him.

So do you have to play Cam Johnson? That's the thing is those two wings, how do you have... Because they have some players, but is it enough? And is Kawhi so dominant that even a good defender can't really check him? I think it's a nice matchup for the Suns. I would pick the Suns in that series. The thing that I don't understand with the Clippers, Kawhi is the dominant ball handler a lot, right?

Even to the point where they inbound the ball to him and he dribbles up. If I was the other team, and I can't believe Utah doesn't do this, I would press him full court every single time. Like, why wouldn't you put miles on him just from dribbling from under the basket all the way to the three-point line? Like, why not just make him work for 40 minutes? This is a guy who basically invented

the concept of load management. I would just try to put miles on him. And then the Paul George piece, he's just such a gifted offensive player, right? You watch it and you, and he'll have three shots a game where you go, wow, that's just just a great basketball shot. But then there's points there in the game where you, you still forget he's out there for three, four minutes.

Yeah. He just makes silly plays. Sometimes you just watch him and he'll take a bad shot. He'll make a bad pass. And you're like, what are you even thinking on that play? He, I think, is the key in that next series. Because in this Dallas and Utah series, they even

have the guys to guard him. So Dallas put Tim Hardaway on him. That's going to eventually backfire on you. Utah had Mitchell. Mitchell's 6'1". Poehler's 6'8". So if you can put a guy with his size on him, I think he really has kind of become more of the ball handler. There was

a good article on ESPN about how he's being more of a point guard with Chauncey Billups. I think that's the key is if Paul George gets into the lane, what I noticed in the Dallas series was if PG gets to the rim early and gets an easy layup, rest of his game comes naturally. But if he starts settling for jumpers early,

he'll brick if he's out of rhythm. He'll take worse and worse shots as the game goes on. It's like you almost want to shoot threes and not get to the rim and distribute the ball. Yeah, I do think you can get to him in a playoff series. I think you can hard foul him. You can talk shit to him and basically prey on him a little bit mentally.

Kawhi's an alien. You're not messing with him. You're not, he's just, he was so good last night in the first half. Like it really like he's spectacular. Cause I thought even Sunday night, I was like Durant's, I just think Durant's the best guy in the league right now. I think if I'm trying to win a title, I think he's the best two way guy. He does the most things. And then watching last night, I'm like, man, I don't, I don't know what to think anymore. Cause Kawhi at his best,

it's hard to imagine somebody who can dominate on both ends like that, you know, and he just gets his hands on everything. He guards, he guarded Luka in the last round and then he guarded Mitchell this round. That's just unbelievable. He's like the fix it guy for the Cavs or not for the,

like with Toronto, with LeBron, now it's Kawhi. It's like, just fix my problem. Put it out there, you know. The wolf. He's's like, just fix my problem. Put him out there. The wolf. He's the wolf in Pulp Fiction. I'll say this about Mitchell. And I've seen Mitchell a few times in person.

He seems slightly more explosive to me. I feel like he's... He's an elite athlete, for sure. Yeah, yeah. I almost would compare him to... I always feel like in the pantheon of just like crazy explosive athletes I've seen in person,

like young Westbrook, young Derrick Rose. I've just never seen anything like that. Like guys who could go with the speed and bend their bodies as they're going full speed, stuff like that. And he has the shot too, with the athletic ability.

Has the pull-up three. Yeah, the thing with Mitchell that's shocking is when they come to set him the pick and his defender glances over for a split second to see where the pick's coming and Mitchell's just gone. He's gone. He's gone to the basket. And, uh, I was just, he, and I sometimes with the stuff on TV versus in person, you pick up a little stuff and explosiveness is always one that just, I don't think translates the same way on television. In person, I was like,

wow, this guy looks like Dwayne Wade to me. This is what it was like watching mid-2000s Dwayne Wade. To me, the thing with Mitchell is like, he's kind of learning to control the whole game. It's a little like Jason Tatum, where like the shot's always there for you, but do you know when to shoot, when to pass? In the last game against Memphis, he had 10 assists.

To me, when Utah, the best version of Utah is that Mitchell's getting seven, eight assists. He's scoring and passing. I think sometimes right now, he still gets a little bit of a tunnel vision, where he wants to shoot all the time. It's like learning that balance is the next step for him. They were doing a thing with him and Bogdanovich and Ingles in the fourth quarter that was working, where it was basically like almost like a three man weave at the top of the perimeter where they were just setting picks for each other and turning, turning, turning.

And then one of them would eventually go to the basket that it felt like they unlocked something with that, with that, with the Clippers defense and they had Gobert near the rim. So his defender couldn't pop out and help because then there would be an alley-oop for Gobert near the rim. So his defender couldn't pop out and help because then there would be an alley-oop for Gobert. And there was something with the three of them. And I could see they were in the lab, like Quinn Snyder was like explaining stuff. And I bet we see more of that.

But to me, it's like, is Conley playing or not? If Conley's playing, is he 80%? Is he 85%? I think the Clippers are better. I think they could have easily won the second game. They convincingly won the next two. They could have won the first game. I mean, they was like three points.

Right. Yeah, maybe the first game. One of those first two, I felt like they were, it was the first one. Yeah, I screwed up. I just think they're better. So that doesn't mean anything.

And especially when you think about the Clippers history where they've never made the conference finals. And even yesterday, it was 29 at one point. It goes down to 14. You could feel it in the crowd again. Like that crowd is just, that crowd's ready to watch another collapse. Like they don't want it, but they're just,

it's in the back of their heads and you could feel it a little bit. But the difference is they have Kawhi Leonard on this team. This is the best player they've ever had in their history. Quickly, Sixers Hawks, which I zoomed through today because I didn't watch last night because we went through the game. Just a bizarre and beat game. I have a lot of Philly fans in my life who are kind of like,

what the hell? What's going on? Whereas sometimes you could tell with the body language of somebody during the game, like something's not right here. It was one of the worst games of his career. It was an ugly game. You look at the Hawks box score and you think like, how'd they even win this?

They just kind of kept clawing, clawing, clawing, getting around. Um, I don't, I don't want to speculate on Embiid. I don't know.

I heard he was the thing that the takeaway for me in that game was trade and have a shot. They're throwing tall guys at him left and right. He has no space at all from 25. If he has two to three, it's got to be like 27 or beyond. He kind of solved it as it went along. He figured out like, oh, I got to be Steve Nash this game. I have to create for other guys. I got to do slashing kicks. I got to drive. I got to just, that's how I'm going to help us win this. And this is what up until three months ago, I didn't think he had in them as a player. I think he's advanced as a scientist of how to attack,

how to figure out solutions on the fly. This is stuff that he wasn't doing last year. What did you see from him in that game? Did you watch it? I saw the end of it. The thing that stood out to me was just like the end of the game, Phillies were on offense through Tobias Harris and Seth Curry. And that's why I've always kind of not really believed in this team at the highest level like simmons can't be your guy late and beads a center and you're just left with these like random

perimeter guys the last play the game was a tobias harris pick and roll and i think it was like a seth curry curl at later it's just where is your closer? And if it's not Atlanta, it'll be the next round where at some point in the fourth quarter of the games, if Embiid cannot get his jumper going, you need somebody else to break somebody off the dribble. And who's that guy going to be? And you're at a disadvantage, however it is, compared to your opponent.

Yeah, and that's the thing. When Embiid's not 100%, it removes the biggest advantage they have, which is like, this guy's unstoppable. You're not stopping him. And nobody in Atlanta is stopping him. Any big man needs the guard.

And there's no guard in Philadelphia. Yeah, Seth Curry's like weirdly important to them in the last five minutes, which is why that was such a smart trade. Yeah, he could actually create some stuff. The Philly fans are panicking. And the thing is, Embiid's, it's not like Embiid's

going to get healthier as the playoffs go along, right? Like it's, this is probably what we're getting. We're going to get up and down. There's going to be games where he just doesn't look great.

And then you see, to me, Simmons like coming in for that offensive rebound on the last play and not pulling it off. It was very Ben Simmons end of the game-ish.

Yeah. So, I don't know what to make of that series anymore. It does feel like whoever comes out of that series is probably going to lose to the winner of the Bucks Net Series. But the big takeaway for me from the last week is I really feel like the Suns are set up now to win the title if they can stay healthy. And, you know, I just think they, they're, they're the

safest bet. They know what they are. They, they are consistently good. They have multiple scoring options. They can play defense. They're tough. They're well-coached. And I think they're the safest bet. I can't believe I'm saying that, but if I had to bet on any team, I would bet on them. To be fair, they did beat a LA team without Anthony Davis. Then we're team without Joe Murray. 100%. They're a safer team, but I feel like the Clippers have a higher ceiling.

I'd probably pick them, but they got to beat the Jazz first. So if we went ceilings, I think Clippers, no question. But what am I getting? What am I getting from Paul George in, let's say, game sevens in Utah? What am I getting from you, Paul George?

Who knows? Honestly, what am I getting? What am I getting from Reggie Jackson? What am I getting from Marcus Morris? I know I'm getting 30 from Kawhi. What am I getting from everyone else on this team? I have no idea. And that's why-

You can get 45 from Kawhi if you need it. That's what I go back to also, is when Kawhi's got to go there, he's got the level. I think whether or not he's the best player in the playoffs, he's the best player in the West by far. And I think that always is in your back pocket. I mean, against the Mavs,

he went for 45 like two or three times whenever he needed it. Like, I'm just going to score every time if I have to. Right. And I think the thing I learned in person last night was that Royce O'Neal is not going to be the Kawhi stopper in this series. So Kawhi's going to get his points. Bogdanovich, Ingles, I think he just doesn't have the side to side speed to stay with him.

I think Ingles is a good defender, but he just, it was pretty easy for Kawhi to do what he wanted. That's the thing too,, I've noticed a lot, is the two-way wing thing. Utah doesn't have them. Phoenix does. The Clippers do. And I look at Mike Hale-Bridges.

If I was Donovan Mitchell or Luka Doncic, give me a Mike Hale-Bridges, please, on my team. That's the guy I've got to have. But the Suns have him. I think that gives him an edge against a lot of these teams having that two-way ability on the wing. Yeah, and that's maybe if Dallas trades Porzingis,

it's probably, they're probably hoping to get somebody like that back. I just, but I think those kind of guys are, teams aren't traded, teams aren't like, here, take my two-way wing. Here's Jalen Brown.

You can have him. It's not happening. Sharks, it was a pleasure to chop it up with you again. It was good to see you. Yeah, thanks for having me on. I'm glad you're feeling better. Everybody's rooting for you.

It's just been incredible to watch you continue to work as you're going through all this. I'm really proud of you as a friend and somebody who works with you. I really appreciate that. All right. Good to see you. All right. That's it for the podcast. I really appreciate that. All right. Good to see you. All right. That's it for the podcast. I will be back Thursday night.

Lots of rumors about Drunk House showing up on this pod on Thursday night with Big Waz. A Drunk House, Big Waz, Simmons threesome. It's very possible. It could really happen.

Who knows? Who knows if there will be anything to talk about with Bucks, Nets, game, the rest of that series. Who knows? We might if, uh, if there'll be anything to talk about with Bucks Nets game, uh, the rest of that series, who knows? We might be, Coach Bud might be getting fired as we're taping the pod or he might be saving his job. We'll see. I'll see you in two days. On the way so I never said I don't have feelings within. On the way so I never said I don't have feelings within.