The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Dysfunctionally Dysfunctional Nets With Raja Bell, Plus a Big Dolphins Move and Philly’s Ceiling With Sheil Kapadia and Benjamin Solak

Episode Date: November 2, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Raja Bell to discuss the Nets and HC Steve Nash parting ways, what it means to have a distraction on a professional sports team, and reports that the Nets are planning on hiring suspended Celtics’ HC Ime Udoka to fill their vacant head coaching position (2:53). Then Bill talks with The Ringer’s Benjamin Solak and Sheil Kapadia about the surprisingly active NFL trade deadline. They talk Bradley Chubb to the Dolphins, Roquan Smith to the Ravens, Calvin Ridley to the Jaguars, T.J. Hockenson to the Vikings, the Bills’ deadline upgrades, teams who surprisingly didn’t make a trade, and more (57:59). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Raja Bell, Benjamin Solak, and Sheil Kapadia Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, we're still doing the Hottest Take on Spotify, the shortest podcast we have. Seven to nine minutes, really fun. I did one on Pickleball this week. You can probably guess my thoughts. Van Lathan and I argued about it. The Hottest Take podcast available only on Spotify. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer.

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I popped on the Prestige TV podcast on Sunday night to break down White Lotus with Joanna Robinson. We're going to be doing that every Sunday night, right after White Lotus ends. Joe and I are going to be breaking it down. And I was on a new Rewatchables podcast. Guess what? It's Naughty November. It's sleek, sweaty, sleazy, early 80s, neo-noir month.

We did American Gigolo as the first one, which was just an astonishingly influential movie. Me, Mallory Rubin, Sean Fantasy, and we broke down the Paul Schrader classic and why this is such an important movie. We're going to be doing all month on Naughty November, four movies by four fantastic filmmakers that were all made within an 18-month span. It's weirdly a little bit of an era there from February 1980 all the way through summer 1981. So go check that out on the rewatchables. On this podcast,

I had a great guest that we had like an 80-minute interview that I was going to put on this pod. And then I had another great guest that we did, I think a 65-minute interview with, and I was debating, hmm, should I throw both these together? What could happen in basketball and sports today? Seems kind of quiet. Maybe I could just get away with a non-sports pot. Nope. Sports blew up today in a whole bunch of ways. We had an active NFL trade deadline. Going to be talking about that later with Shil Kapadia and Benjamin Solak. But first, Roger Bell came on. Steve Nash, I guess fired as the Brooklyn Nets coach. I think he was probably

dying to get fired. One of the most dysfunctional franchises and I guess three season stretches we've seen in the National Basketball Association in the post-cocaine era. Roger and I are going to talk about all the different outcomes of the Nets not only getting rid of Nash, but bringing in Ime Adoka reportedly from the Celtics and why the Celtics would even do that. So this is a story that you just think, oh, wait, can this story get stranger? No, it cannot. And we talk about it and it's all next. Raja coming up first. our friends from Pearl Jam. All right. We're taping this. It's a little after 4 o'clock Pacific time.

Bulls Nets is about to start on TNT, so if anything insane happens during that game, it's not our fault. Roger Bell is here. You can hear him on Real Ones with Logan Murdoch on the Ringer NBA show. They have talked about this Nets situation a lot. I feel like Marlon Brando on Godfather 1

after the toll booth, when he's like, look at what they did to my boy, the massacre of my boy. That's how I feel about Nash. The worst coaching situation I think we've seen in the last 10 years. And I know we'll be,

I'm going to be a little bit critical of him later, but for right now, I'm like, how do you win with the situation that he was in the last couple years there I you know Bill you and I have text like randomly when when some of the some of the shit that was the show happened you know like just I've always kind of felt like he was just handed a Delta bad hand. Now, I am with you. Like, you know, Steve was a first-time head coach. But I would just say this. It's even more difficult to manage that type of situation as a first-time head coach.

He wasn't, you know, just for circumstances put in the greatest situation to really succeed. Now, no one's crying for Steve Nash. Like Steve Nash, two-time MVP, like he's had a great career. And, you know, many people would love to have had the chance to coach the Nets. But the facts are the facts. Like that was a shit show. And you think like things kept changing. On top of it, we had, you know, pandemic, post-pandemic, all that stuff. And then for whatever reason, the Harden thing completely falls apart last year. And I'm just not sure,

just fundamentally, Durant, Kyrie, Harden, which I think Zach Lowe once called the greatest hypothetical team we've had. But then there's a culture piece to this too. You talked about this on the podcast with Logan. Now, where I'd be critical with Nash is I would have expected him to set the culture for this Nets team because you saw him do it in Phoenix, right? But ultimately, this is a superstars league. And I just wonder like,

who is ultimately setting the culture on that Nets team because it's supposed to be Durant. That's what the money's for. That's what all the power's for. And yet I'm not sure he's that guy. I'm not sure he's a, oh my God, everything runs through me. I've got to be accountable the same way like Curry was after the Draymond Poole thing. So if you don't have that culture, can you win as a coach? Well, no, it's really hard to win despite having bad culture. It's almost impossible. I mean,

your star power has to be of the highest level and it's got to click if that makes sense. It's just got to be a seamless, you know, orchestra of talents that are just working together and in this way that you almost can't mess it up. But without the culture, it becomes really hard. And Steve, Steve's an interesting guy. Like, you know, Steve, like Steve does drive culture, but you know, I always say this about teams when they're bringing in a guy. Use me, for instance, when I went to Utah the last time that I was a free agent. I went to Utah. That team was still viable. Jerry Sloan was still there. Darren Williams was there. We had brought in Al Jefferson, Andre Kirilenko. You had Paul Millsap, CJ Miles. There were some

real pieces. What they needed was kind of, you know, or what they were looking for was this veteran type of leader. Now that, that didn't work out. That team kind of fell apart. But after Jerry left, Tyrone Corbin wanted me to be a leadership guy and I wasn't playing. And the point was like, Hey man, I wasn't bitching and moaning for more minutes, but no one's listening to me because I don't play. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And so it's harder to set culture when you're not out there doing it in the way that Steve... Steve leads by example. So when you see Steve out there, he wasn't the most vocal leader. He was a great dude. He loved to be around him. He took care of everybody, family guy, invested in everyone's wellbeing and how your life is going, but not the guy that was going to be in your face, MFing you if you did something wrong, right? Like that would fall to me or someone else

to do, you know, but that just wasn't his way. Now, the way he led was by consistency, by example, by, by sacrifice, like those types of things. And they translate easier, I think, when you're playing than they do kind of when you're sitting, you big chair. And you need good dudes around you. You know our guy. You know he's a good dude. And I always said this about Mike D. Mike D'Antoni was great, but he needed good dudes. He needed good, conscientious, caring human beings.

Otherwise, there was a chance that that was going to go sideways because he didn't have a heavy hand. And just watching from the outside, I don't know for certain, but it looks like that might have been the situation. Steve doesn't have the heaviest hand and he was dealing with some pretty interesting characters to say the least. You have Kyrie. We'll go Kyrie last year and then Kyrie this year, which are two totally different types of distraction. But Kyrie last year just deciding, I'm not going to get vaccinated and I'll play in the games that I'm allowed to play in. And then the team's like, well, that's not happening.

Well, how about just the road games? And they go through that whole maze the whole year. Harden gets mad. Harden shows up. He's not in shape. Well, I know he the road games that may go through that whole maze the whole year? Harden gets mad. Harden shows up. He's not in shape. Well, it's Hammy, sir. Well, all I know is he wasn't in shape and he's heavy. Give that.

And then you have Kyrie this year who has reached this new level of, he just seems like he just wants to antagonize people and make waves at all times. Combined with this Ben Simmons situation, which starts in March, where they trade Harden for Ben Simmons situation, which starts in March where they trade hard in for Ben Simmons, Curry, two number ones. And the thinking is Ben Simmons is going to

come in, he'll get in shape, and then he'll be this kind of defensive, versatile, Sean Marion on the suns type defender for the Nets. Never plays, acts really strangely during the course of the season, shows up this year, has no confidence anymore. And then you have Kyrie, who just seems to be determined to just trend on Twitter, seems to be his overriding goal with everything he does. Then he crosses the line this week with the anti-Semitism stuff, which was a whole other level for him because that was actually hurtful. People were hurt. Nets fans were hurt. People around the league were hurt. People in the media were hurt. And he didn't seem like he had really any remorse for it. He didn't care. So I don't know on top of the team not being that good and not really making sense cohesively as a basketball team.

I'm just not sure how anyone was going to be able to coach that. We'll get to the Udoka stuff later, but I can't think of a more of a no-win situation than this. Yeah, I watched, you know, obviously intently because I thought about going. Yeah, we should mention that. This was like a fork in the road moment for you. It's like, should I coach the Nets? Should I stay in Florida, coach my sons and be with my family and do podcasts?

And I'm going to be honest, if it hadn't been for the uncertainty surrounding what my family's ability to be around the team and be in arenas was at the time because of COVID, we would already started looking for schools and places to live. And so we were far down that path. And so because I was so invested, not just because Steve's my guy, I was watching it and it was early, earlier than it probably should have been. I said to my wife one night, I said, man, Steve doesn't look happy. He just, you know, and I know him well enough. I mean,

but I just know his, you know, demeanor and kind of mannerisms and he just didn't look happy. And you know, to his defense and to the Nets defense, every time I asked him when I'd see him in person and we'd go out, he was fine and it was great. And it was just general stuff that coaches have to deal with. Nothing outside the normal scope of, of, uh, you know, NBA life, but his body language and like his face and it was just telling me something different. And so, you know, I would just say this again, a first time head coach, Bill, what we're looking for is, is, you know, a learning curve. We're trying to see that he can make these mistakes early, which we've penciled in because this is the journey we're all on together

and that he's going to learn from those mistakes and get better at them. What I would say is with the instability that was the roster, that was the COVID situation with Kyrie and the injuries and the trades. What about the lack of defense? They just had a bunch of offense first dudes who couldn't guard anybody. So you're always scrambling for, you're always scrambling.

It's hard to learn the lessons because every night I got a new, I mean, what I was saying last year with this, we're going to plug him in half the time and play shit. You can't even plan for that. You can't plan. You can't learn any lesson from the night before because you got a different lineup the next night and you're playing a whole different

scheme probably offensively and you're playing different coverages because you have people that have different skill sets. And so it would be hard for me to see if someone was really growing in that environment just because there's been so much instability. And I really believe, and I don't know if Steve was culpable or not. And so if he was, I guess this falls at his feet too. But I'll say it again. If you don't take control as an organization and put real parameters in place and make sure that people understand what's expected of them and what will be allowed to happen. And if this line is crossed, these are the ramifications. If you're not going to do that, you're going to have chaos. And they allowed chaos to thrive in Brooklyn. And if Steve, he's my guy, love him to death. If he was making some of those calls to let people off the hook and not hold him accountable,

then I guess he's culpable in that regard too. But I just know as a whole, that was a shit show. Well, we knew it was over when it came out that Durant wanted him and Sean Marks gone. And I still haven't heard a good explanation for why Durant turned on Nash last year. I went to one of the Nets Celtics

playoffs games. I watched every minute of all of them. I actually thought the Nets overachieved because Durant was getting outplayed by Tatum and the rest of Boston's team was way better than the Nets team. I mean, he's throwing three point guard lineups out there and just trying to gimmick and scotch tape the game together and was really coaching his ass off. I was impressed. I was way less impressed with the coaching this year. Chris Vernon on The Mismatch was talking. He went to a Nets-Grizzlies game and was just kind of startled by how poorly prepared the Nets seemed. And I do wonder with this season, when it becomes a no-win, maybe you check out a little bit. But in hindsight, I just wonder, Steve's had a great career. He's a Hall of Famer.

I just wonder, should he have packed it in at that point just for his own sanity? If your best player is like, get this guy out of here. How do you heal from that? Um, I, I can't speak for Steve because he, he didn't, I asked him about the Kevin Durant situation because I knew how tight they were. I knew that when Steve wanted to bring me on in Brooklyn, you know, he, he ran it by KD because he told me he did. And, and KD, you know, um, was kind of part of, of that conversation. And so I know that they had a good relationship. And so I, therefore I asked him when I had, when I heard, you know, about it and he didn't really elaborate, right? Like, I don't,

sitting on this side of the mic now, I don't try to get too deep down the rabbit hole because I don't want to betray anybody's trust, right? So he didn't elaborate. I didn't ask him to. So this is me speaking

from the feelings I got. And I think he felt, betrayed is like a strong word, but he certainly was hurt. Like, he was blindsided by that, right? was hurt. Like he was blindsided by that. Right. Like I know he was blindsided by that. And so I've been telling my wife all summer and anyone in my camp close to me, I know he won't quit. It's not a quitter. Like you don't, you don't come out of Santa Clara. It's like a Canadian thing. Yeah. You're not going to quit, man. Like

I know you don't build yourself into the player that you were by being a quitter. And so I know his pride won't let him quit. I hope that he would quit. As his friend, as someone that was watching him, I said, man, Steve's looking old, man. Like, I told you that, I think, once. I was like, he looks old over there. Like, you could see it wearing on him. And I wanted him to quit.

I would have never told him that. I didn't tell him that. But I wanted him to quit because I know he's got him that. I didn't tell him that. But I wanted him to quit because I know he's got a lot of interest. He's got a beautiful young family. He's young. And he likes to do a lot of cool things. And if that's not making you happy,

like I told him today when I texted him, that should be joyous. It should be fun. You should be enjoying yourself. If you're not, why the fuck are you doing it? Well, and he probably, the competitive side too, you can't be as good of a player as he was unless you're competitive. You fuck are you doing it well and he probably the competitive side too like you can't be as good of a player as he was

unless you're competitive you don't want to look like you know you're your best player just made you leave and you're like okay I'll go but he probably wanted to leave so maybe this was how it was gonna play out I'm really disappointed in Durant and I would

love to know more from his vantage point. Because we already know that by the end of that Warriors season, he didn't get along with Steve Kerr either. In Oklahoma City, he was incredibly loyal to Scotty Brooks. Incredibly loyal. And I just find it hard to believe that somebody could rub the wrong way with Steve Nash and Steve Kerr. Seems a problem to me. And I still, I can't get a straight answer for what flipped last year. And if I had to scotch tape it together, I would say a piece of it was he was probably mad they didn't just let

Kyrie play during the season because it put a huge burden on him and his body and carrying the team. It put them in a worse playoff seed and it basically cost them the year. He's probably mad they didn't try to salvage the Harden thing better. And he's probably mad that they traded for Simmons thinking that he would be able to help and he didn't. And it was a wasted year and he's mad.

He's 34 years old. And he's like, we got to fix this. We got, it's somebody's fault. I'm going to blame this person, this person, this person. The guy who somehow never gets blamed for any of this stuff is Sean Marks, who runs the Nets,

who in that hardened trade, just threw Jared Allen in there like a free set of tires, who was the one, it's not like they had a gun to his head when he was given DeAndre Jordan 40 million for four years, who preached this whole culture thing with Kenny Atkinson and all those dudes that they got in there. But it doesn't seem like he has loyalty to really anybody. And now Atkinson's gone, Steve Nash is gone. They're going down the Ime Adoka road,

but he kept his job. He's the one that wanted to turn the team over to Doreen and Kyrie, which I think most people would have. He's the one who decided James Harden, this culture won't be crazy at all. And he's the one who honestly kept Kyrie this season when he should have gotten rid of him. They should have, everything that's happening this season with Kyrie was the most predictable thing ever. Maybe not the antisemitism part. I didn't know he'd go that far, but he was going to be a distraction. Last year, the contract clearly wanted to end up somewhere else. They didn't know he'd go that far, but he was going to be a distraction last year. The contract clearly wanted to end up somewhere else. They didn't give him an extension. How is this going to end? Well, it was never ending. Well, it was, you're absolutely right. It never could end. Well, um, I hoped that, you know, the eternal optimist, I guess, I just hoped that they'd get it together

and I'm, I'm pulling from my guy and guy and you know my sons are admittedly huge well at least one of them is a huge Kyrie fan you know I've always liked KD's game and for a lot of reasons I'm pulling for them right I know people on that staff I want to do well but you are right there was only one way that Kyrie thing was going to go

I mean it's if we don't know that by now I mean come on the depths of which you're right, couldn't have predicted that. But it always starts from the top. It always starts from the top. I mean, we can sugarcoat it. We can pass the buck. We can nip off pieces here and there.

But the reality is it starts from the top. And culture starts there as well. We talk about a coach establishing culture. That's not where coaches don't establish culture. I mean, they help with the culture. The culture has started like David Griffin when I was with the Cavs was culture. That was culture, right? And that permeated through the building and then it trickled down to the coaches and the

coaches carried that out onto the floor and then it trickled down to the players and their families because the culture was set from the top. We were a family. And whatever your culture is, it starts at the top. And so if there's a bad one, then you got to look at the top. And so I, you know, I'm not in those rooms where Sean Marks is making the decisions, but decisions on personnel and the mess that that has become in Brooklyn.

Yeah, look at their role players. Come on, man. The owner, who I don't think, I wouldn't call him a hands-on owner, although he pops in and out from time to time, but he's not going to establish the culture the way some other people are. Front office has been pretty entitled. Then you have,

you're basically creating the star culture when you turn your entire franchise over to Duran and Kyrie. And now it's year four and they're living through the results. And neither one of those guys are culture drivers, Bill. Culture drivers? I would say they're culture crashers. Well, I'm

reluctant to go all the way with KD just because... No, I am too. I'm just saying in this case, this is more of a culture crash than a culture crash. No, we saw... KD, I think the 2017 Warriors is the best modern team I've seen. And he was part of that culture and he loved it.

And I don't know what happened year three. Maybe we'll find out someday. But we know he can exist in that thing. But I want to go into the Kyrie stuff, but we got to take a quick break. The NBA season is underway. It's the perfect time to download FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook. Right now, new customers get a no-sweat first bet up to $1,000 plus FanDuel, the only sportsbook that's giving all customers three months of NBA League pass when they make a $5 bet on the NBA. You can go

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to get your no sweat first bet up to $1,000. Make every moment more. This season with FanDuel, official sports book partner of the NBA, you must be 21 plus and present in select states. First online real money wager only refund issued is now withdrawable free bets that expire in 14 days. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. We're going to rehash a little of what you talked about, Logan, on Ringer NBA Show,

because just because I think it's an important conversation. The concept of a distraction because I don't think the general fan or anybody who's worked in any sort of like a real team concept understands what it's like when you have somebody, especially somebody

who's in a key role, who is an ongoing distraction. Day after day, you don't know what's going to happen. I knew this from, obviously, I'm pretty connected with the Boston team. And that second Kyrie year, which was, I think,

way worse than people realized. And one of the reasons they were not shedding any tears when he left was it was distraction stuff. And it was a rollercoaster ride. And it was not knowing, oh, this person's super happy today. They're not happy today. Oh, this happened. Oh, he just said this after the press conference. Oh, we got to deal with this. And when it's a team and you're together for six to nine months, depending on how the season goes and you're on that roller coaster ride, what happens to the psyche of the team as a whole? You fry out eventually is what happens. Your emotional, your ability to compartmentalize.

Playing a professional sport, you have to be great at compartmentalizing and keeping the distractions and the outside world and what's going on outside of the practice facility in the arena or the field or the court. You have to be able to separate those. You have to be able to just come in, do your job, focus on the task at hand to the best of your ability. You'll see people's personal lives creep in to their area of expertise all the time. And a guy will have off weeks, off nights. I mean, to some degree, it might be happening with Tom Brady right now, right? It happens. But to the best of your ability, you're trying to compartmentalize. When you have something

on your team that's just a distraction all the time, and it's unpredictable, and you're wasting energy worrying about what your interaction is going to be with them on a daily basis, it just starts to wear on you. And I akin it to an odometer on a car. We all got a certain amount of mileage and it would be like emotional bandwidth, shit that we can deal with before we reach the fry out point. And some of that's from my home life, some of that's from my work life. And within my work life, I've got that parsed out to be able to deal with, man, I got to deal with X, Y, and Z today. And I allot a certain amount of that bandwidth to each thing. But now here's, you know, again, that's the domino. The first person to run out of bandwidth that gets on edge and snippy and sarcastic and confrontational, he's the first domino. And then the next person that he crosses paths with, that he doesn't like have the patience with or the ability to calmly speak to and pacify a

situation and he's snarky and he snips and he mfs well then he's the second domino and then now we're just rolling right so this whole fucking team now is on edge and snarky and snippy and it happened because we've got this this distraction and this this drain on our emotional bandwidth as a team. And it's just sucking it from the pool every day, every day, every day until we're dry. Well, so you played with Marion and Stoudemire and Phoenix who weren't even 20% of the Kyrie stuff, but would both get moody from time to time, right? And we've talked about this on previous pods. Marion would have his moments where somebody said in his ear, like, this guy's making more money than you, or this guy made the NBA over you. And he would come out and he would occasionally have, and I remember Nash telling

me about it in the moment, but like, he would have the random games where it's like, why is Sean Marion shooting 20 times tonight? And you just kind of wrote it out and it got out of the system and then it was fine. And I think Amari was the same way, right? A little bit of a complicated guy, but a beloved teammate. But every once in a while, I would maybe get off the highway for an exit and then come back on. The Kyrie stuff's different. But so there's really two types of distractions. Those guys were not distractions. No, no. Those guys are NBA players. Right. That's what an NBA player is, right?

We're all, we all are, you know, alpha, hyper competitive people. And there are going to be times where, you know, we feel like maybe we're overlooked or we want a little bit more recognition or what have you. It's penciled in. That's baked into the pie. What you're talking about is a consistent distraction. Those are blips on the radar, man. They pop up. You deal with them as a team. Everyone understands that we all have our unique personalities. I was like that,

Bill. I could get emotional. I might want to fight somebody. I might be in a bad mood for three days, but people knew I'd be right back because it you know, it's just what I did, man. Like, give him a little space. He'll come back. We're going to be fine. And then that doesn't happen for months and months and months. But when it's consistent, right? And to your point, when you're going into on a daily basis and you don't know what type of person you're going to get and what interaction you're going to have with them. I mean, genuinely don't know. Not the random one-off, like, oh, Bill's having a bad day. Or like, yo, Raj woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Just let him chill today, man. He'll be back tomorrow. Those are family problems. But the real ones where you're like, yo, man, how do you think he's going to be today? Is he good?

And that's a real thing sometimes. And that's a consistent dream. It's a consistent dream of energy. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, I don't know. I guess I'm a little bit moody from time to time. Maybe. Maybe my family would say that or they'd back up.

He's in one of his funks, the Patriots lost. But when you're one of the two best guys on a team and you have that day-to-day impact on top of one piece that you didn't mention. What happens when these guys go home? What happens when they're with their buddies? What's the first thing their buddies are asking? Like, yo, man, what's up with Kyrie? All day.

And then that's, and Kyrie has now become part of your life and you're not even, it's like, dude, I don't know. Kyrie's Kyrie. And you have to start saying the guy's name twice to judge a spot. Hey, you know, Kyrie's Kyrie. And everybody in your life's asked, that's when you know, it's gone sideways. So the Nets have two of those guys. Cause Simmons is the other one. It's like, what's up with Simmons? Like whoever let's, let's pick a, I don't know, Seth Curry or Patty Mills. They're going to dinner. They're at dinner with some friends. Like what is up with Ben Simmons? And it's like they're in a press conference answering the same questions. Ah, Ben's a good guy. No, no, we think. And I think that weight

is part of it too. Huge part of it. And when you're dealing with people as polarizing as Kyrie and Ben Simmons was last year, just, you know, depending on what market you were in. That's not just, that's not just your friends and your family, brother. That's walking the street. What all day that's in a grocery store, man. That's out having a glass of wine from the waiter or the bartender. That is it's incessant. It doesn't stop. And then, you know, one of the biggest things for NBA players is you get up to the mic because you've had a great game. This is your moment at the mic. They're rare for a player like me.

And I'm answering questions about Kyrie and anti-Semitism. Like, I used Joe Harris the other day only because no other name came to mind. But I'm minding my business. Just hanging out, man. Having a good time. Enjoying my weekend. Just trying to do my job. Just trying to hoop.

And here I go at the press conference that I've earned the right to be at. And my first question posed is about one of these poop butts. You know what I mean? I don't want to do that. I don't know what Kyrie's endgame is

and I'm not sure if there is one. But I do know the Nets have tried to trade him for the last few weeks, and I think he probably knows. I don't even think I'm reporting that. I think it's pretty well known around the league. There's no takers. He's hit the point where people... It's weird.

Some guys hit this point, right? Like, Stephon Marbury was all of a sudden out of the league in 2008. The Celtics signed him for the stretch run in 09 because they'd had some injuries. They rolled the dice to them. But you can go from being an elite player to basically nobody wants that you become toxic. And it feels like he's hitting that point. It's incredible to even wrap my mind around that from the perspective of his talent being so in its prime. It's just so good. It's so good to think that that's the case, but I could see it because you're dealing with two

things, one causing the other. You are completely unpredictable. I have no idea what you're going to do. None. I don't know. And nothing that I do can predict how you're going to react to it. And so you're just completely unpredictable. And therefore, I can't trust you. And so when you can't be predicted and you can't be trusted, and I'm not saying I don't know, but once you've reached that point and people are like, no, completely unpredictable and we can't trust it.

Yeah, you can be out of the league real quick. Well, and you need trust most in football. Football is probably the most trust, but basketball you need trust for a variety of reasons because there's sacrifice. Yeah. At some point, there's got to be some sort of hierarchy, all the things that come with it.

You've said a couple of times I've heard on Real Woods where you're like, Kyrie's not a bad guy. And I've heard this over and over again from people in the NBA, from players, from people who work for teams, even like some of the Celtics. I don't feel like they had a lot of hard feelings, even when he's like stomping on the shamrock after games and they'd cut to one of the Celtics and be like, yeah, you know, I got no beef with Kyrie. What is so seductive about this guy that I would have thought with some of the latest stuff that you'd have more people coming out against him and really nobody did. Why is he so enchanting? It's a good question. And I took time out of my day-to-day

to answer someone in my DMs who just railed. It just gave me the business because I didn't go in harder on Kyrie. And I thought I had went in pretty good on his leadership and his accountability and stuff like that. But they were really upset because I called him. I said he was a good dude. And my response to it, Bill, is simple. I have young children. Kyrie and I are not good friends. We work together, but I wasn't on a day-to-day having to talk to Kyrie job grind. I was in the front office. Now I know Kyrie's dad. Kyrie's dad played at Boston University before I got to Boston University. He was one of my OGs. So I would see him when he came around for alumni weekend and stuff like that. We had a connection like that.

But Kyrie was always great with my kids, man. Of all of the people around that Cavs organization that they looked up to, Kyrie was the one that took the time with them in the gym to come over and pat one of them on the butt and play defense against him or to seek him out in the stands and give him his shoe on the night that Kyrie 1 came out or find my other son and give him his jersey

and put it on him. I didn't have a relationship with Kyrie, but he took a liking to my kids in some capacity. I saw him last year and I had talked plenty of shit about Kyrie. Barely, I thought. And he was as cool and gracious to my kids and to me. And so those are my experiences with Kyrie. And so when I say, I think he's a good dude, it's because that's what I've experienced. I think Kyrie is a few things. I think Kyrie is insulated in a way that he thinks he's smarter than he is sometimes. And he thinks he's more conscious than he is. And that's a dangerous thing sometimes. I think when you always think you're the smartest person in the room i mean i i think that kairi has a camp that isn't well-rounded and and doesn't keep him grounded because they're not well-rounded

um and i and i and and i think he doesn't realize the impact that he really has like i i think that or he does realize it and it's like a big game to him and he doesn't think the impact that he really has. Like, I think that... Or he does realize it, and it's like a big game to him, and he doesn't think it's real. Like, the fact that he didn't really come out and be like, I really feel bad about this video. That's true. I didn't do my research. That's very true.

And he, I don't want to say he doubled down on it, but he certainly didn't retreat. I thought that was one of the more bizarre things I've seen an athlete do really this century. Yeah. I don't have, look, I'm, I'm not, I would never apologize for any of that shit. No, I get it. You are, you are doing rec, you're out there being reckless, my man. And, and I don't co-sign on, on any of that. I think that, you know, this is, this is, this is delicate, man. Like when when you when you get in that rabbit hole

of conspiracy theory of of third eye open of just you're you're in and i think he's caught up in whatever it is that he's doing i think he's lost it's almost like a drug yeah yeah you know i think you're right i you know The other thing with him... I'm trying to figure out how to say this correctly. I think it started with the world is flat thing, right? And he took a bunch of shit for that. And there was a moment there when it's like, all right, is he going to be like, ha ha, yeah, I was kidding.

He kind of doubled down then and it became a thing. And you just look at that. It's almost like when they talk about how Trump wasn't going to run for president until Obama made fun of him at the White House Correspondents Dinner and that planted the seed. It's like from that moment on, he just started to get weird. I don't feel like he was, if he was kind of strange before then i never really heard but well i my conversation so again kairi and i the year i was in cleveland um not much of a relationship other than you know just saying what's up and having a laugh just you know

messing with each other i was a former player and i knew his dad and stuff like that but towards the end of the year like i'd sit with him on the plane once in a blue moon and chat with him. And when he got injured that year against, who did he hurt his knee against? I think it was hurt in the Atlanta series. And we took him down to see Dr. James Andrews, down in Jacksonville somewhere. So I had to leave with the team, with him and his dad, and hop on the plane to take him down to see James Andrews. And then, so I spent the whole day with them on the plane, in the, in the car, like all that.

And so I got to have real conversations with him, like real alone time. Um, and I found him to be pretty, you know, pretty sincere, heartfelt, um,

not done by any stretch of the imagination. Um, again, don't, don't know that you're as smart as you think you are but there are a lot of people like that like that's okay i i think that you know you know when you see a kid in high school bill like you see him one year and they're regular and then you see him the next year and they become this whole other person

in whatever group or clique. And you know that's because they got with the wrong people. Like, you're like, oh, you were just influenced. Like, you swept up in that. I kind of feel that way about him. Like, you've just been swept up.

Whatever swept you up, I don't know. By something. Yeah. But something swept you up. My favorite part of everything you just laid out was the, if you're super nice to my kids,

it's hard for me to turn against you. I think that I could not agree more. Like if you're living in Milwaukee in the early nineties and it's like, Hey, did you hear about this Dahmer thing? It's like, God, Dahmer was so nice to my kids. Like you must want to believe it. It's like, I played trucks with my son for two hours. This can't be true. It is funny when you're a parent. You get people the benefit of the doubt after they've been nice to your kids for five minutes. Let's take a break. And then I want to talk about the Celtics and Adoka and that whole piece. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey.

Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research.

And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you can still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. So the Celtics piece of this is interesting. They hired Doka. He plays a huge part in that finals team. And I've talked about him on pods before. I'm not going to redo it. He was a huge part in that finals team. And I've talked about him on pods before. I'm not going to redo it. He was a huge part of that team. He's a huge part of the culture.

He's a huge part of the reason they came very close to winning a title. Things fall apart this summer. He's put on ice. The official statement was he was suspended for a year. I think anybody knew he wasn't coming back. And all of a sudden the Nets are hiring him. The biggest question I was getting today from people who know that I probably know stuff is,

why aren't they getting compensation? Why are they doing this? Why are they helping the Nets? My take on that is, I think they wanted this thing to end. I think you have a right to suspend somebody for a year, but if you're actually going to fire them, now you got to pay them all the money. And I think what happened with the Adoka thing had

a huge impact on their organization, especially the females and the people who were dragged through the mud for two, three days online. And it was an awful story that really hurt a lot of different people just because of social media and how terrible the internet is. And I think the chance to just move on, they have a coach. They really like Joe Mazzola, who I think they, you could say they stumbled into, but I think he's quickly won over everybody. And I think the, the chance to maybe move on from this and this goes now goes away and they never have to deal with it again and the Nets can pay him and that's it, is why they probably didn't want compensation. Could they have tried to get compensation? I don't know. I don't know what the legality of that was, but it seems like they were

happy to let him go. What's crazy to me is the Nets, who are one of the most dysfunctional teams in the history of the league, are now like, you know who we should bring in this guy who just had this whole crazy thing happen in Boston. Let's, let's bring him in, him in to settle the ship, whether he does it or not, I don't know. But this is another distraction for this team. It's another distraction. It's another distraction. But I, yeah, I think that from the Celtics side, you were just thrown a life raft, right? Like, yeah. Oh, you're just thrown a life raft, right?

Yeah. Oh, you're going to take him? Okay, go. Yes, yes, we're good. Get rid of the headache. We're done. For the Brooklyn, it's interesting because you are absolutely right. That is just introducing another absolute drain to your emotional bandwidth in that building. Just because with it comes all of,

all of the baggage, all of the questions. Having said that, I think that he has the personality. If this is, I don't know exactly how to say it. So I'm just going to say it like this. If that hadn't happened fair,

if I get to Jimimmy right right he would be the type of dude that i think could come in there and you know they're different kind of leaders so like let's say steve wasn't the coach that had the heavy hand or what whatever you want to call it to just drive the culture the way i i think that emay having watched him. I think, I think that he, he might be good in that situation. I just get the feeling now I haven't been in his practices. I don't, I don't listen to his messaging or know what his, what he's all about, but just watching his team, watching his interactions, watching the way he's able to, to, to, to work with them.

I think he would be the type of person that would be a good fit. Now, again, that's if he wasn't coming with the whole distractions and the baggage that he's going to come with. Baggage is a good word. So he comes to the Celtics and for two months, he was pissed off coaching the team. And it was kind of hilarious in a fun way to watch it because, you know, it's too much ISO ball, guys making dumb decisions. People, you know, it took him a while to put his imprint on the team. I went to one game where I sat next to him and I was like, I've never seen a coach kind of more disgusted with his team openly. Right. Where it just, it almost seemed like he wanted to walk on the court and punch somebody.

And then eventually the team kind of rounded into shape and put his imprint on it. And he was the toughest guy on that team. So on paper, you'd say, well, why couldn't he do that for the Nets? Well, I have a couple of things. I can't imagine a worse coach for Kyrie than Emei Adoka. This prideful guy who sees the world in black and white as a basketball coach. He's not going to put up with any bullshit.

And you have Kyrie, who's the master of bullshit at this point. So how's that going to go? And then the Ben Simmons piece, where Ben Simmons, who I've never seen somebody play hot potato like this, who was a good player on offense, whose confidence is shot.

So you're bringing somebody in who's ostensibly going to rebuild his confidence. I know they have a relationship from back in Philly and Ben apparently likes him, but Emay's not going to be able to give him Emay's heart and put it in his body. Then you have Durant who is now

not clicked with two straight coaches and you have a Nets team that is one in five, that is not one of the best six teams in the East, that does not play defense the way that Emei loves defense. He's a defense guy. This team doesn't have defense. They have no rim protector. It doesn't have pieces

to play defense. They don't have the pieces. They're two trades away from even being close to an Emei team. So it feels like a horrible fit for him on top of all the distraction stuff. Yeah, I mean, all of that, yes. Let me start with Kyrie.

At this point, I don't give a shit if I'm Brooklyn. This is what you're getting. So you're either going to get on you're going to get on board and I do think and I've said this before I said it the other day players like Kyrie they will push

and push and push until they realize that they're pushing against an immovable object and then I think there's a respect level that's gained with like oh shit you're not going to let, I'm not going to be able to do that. Like you're really, so you said you weren't going to do it. I tried you and you stuck to your guns and you're not going to do, okay, well, what am I,

what are my choices now? Let's go, let's hoop. And if that helps them get to where they're trying to go, that's what they care about. So I think that they do like structure i i think that they're very resistant to it in some cases some more than others but i think ultimately if you're going to be consistent and stick to those guns and and hold him accountable i think he figures it out right like or he's just got to go i mean look where you're out of here right because if i'm which might be what he wants he might be like like, we're going to buy you out. You just have to leave. And then Kyrie's like, cool, now I can go to the Lakers.

It could be. But if I'm Brooklyn, I'm now trying to, like, I can't just keep, this is so much of a mess. We'd have to find some stability. So if he's black and white and it's going to be about his way, then this is how we're going to build it. Anything that doesn't fit that mold,

we can keep it moving because, I mean, we're in the worst possible situation. Like, we're not winning. We're not, you know, we're like in seventh, eighth, ninth in the West. Like, we can't do that.

So Kyrie gets on board, I imagine, or there's a chance that he doesn't. But I think they want discipline more than people think they do. They're just scared to really stick to really stick to their guns with, with cats like him and hold him accountable. But, um,

you know, the, the, the defensive piece, there are a lot of different ways to defend me. And there are a lot of different ways you're going to have to junk it up. You know, you might not be able to play it just the way you want to.

Like you certainly don't have that, that Boston roster that was hellified defensively, but he's going to have to figure that out and it might take some time for them to find the pieces that work with his vision. By time, do you mean a year and a half? Yeah, I do. I do. With

new players? Maybe that amount of time. I don't know. I'm trying to be optimistic for you here, Bill. But Kevin, listen, Kevin Durant, here's where I'm at with Kevin Durant. Huge Kevin Durant fan as a player. Me too. Also very, also very nice every time I've met him and gracious to my kids.

But I mean, eventually, right? Like if it's always going to be a problem with the coach, like, and this is the third coach. And if there's a problem with this coach, that says less about the coaches than it says about you and so i forgot about atkinson before yeah we're talking three still don't know what atkinson did so so like the jury's out i would hope that he realizes look i'm in this window it's really late in the game and it is late um i need to get this right and i need to support whoever's in here and get with the vision. And he needs to understand what can help him.

This isn't friendship anymore. Like Katie is operating off of loyalty and friendship in your, in your prime and in your window. That ain't what it's about my dude, at least in, I mean, shit, I don't know.

I've never won a championship, but if they can't help you get where you're trying to go, then be friends with them on another team. But you need, you need to trust people to get in if they can't help you get where you're trying to go, then be friends with them on another team. But you need, you need to trust people to get in the pieces that can help you get to where you want to go and the coach to help you get there. And so I hope he'll do that. Yeah.

It's weird. Cause I think Durant is such a smart basketball player and it's hard for me to believe he didn't understand the ramifications of all the stuff he did this summer or that he wasn't smart enough about basketball in general to realize there was no realistic trade for him. And in general, like. No, he was trying. He wanted Steve going. That's what I mean.

That's what that was his end game, right? Like it didn't happen then. But that was to your point earlier in the pod, Bill. Like it was. Do we still do we know why? I really, if you had to guess one reason, I don't even know if I could guess the reason other than the Kyrie thing. And maybe he feels like he didn't do a good enough job

coaching the harder thing. I think that part's really weird. I'll say this as a huge KD fan. And I think this Brooklyn thing's been, he doesn't care. Like I could say right now, this Brooklyn thing's been, he doesn't care. Like I could say right now, this Brooklyn thing has been a huge, a huge black mark on his legacy. You know, these four Nets years where his career should have gone as somebody who should have gone down as one of the best 12 to 13 players ever. I still have met like 15 or 16, but these last few years of his prime just went so far sideways.

And a lot of it was, was his fault. And a lot of it was because he basically was like, it's me and Kai reverse the world. And he picked the wrong guy. He just ultimately picked the wrong guy. You did. You picked.

Yeah. You put your stock in the wrong way. It's like your buddy who just married the wrong person and you know it as before it happens, then it happens. Now they have kids and now it's like, oh, he's miserable now. It's like, yeah, we knew that we knew the whole time this is what was going to happen. And he, I guess his out would be Kyrie leaving after the season. But you know, and Kyrie has that whole thing when he does about how the media get, make all the

money off the players and the dialogue. I think that's one of his best points i kind of i do kind of like that when he's like you guys you just want to talk talk talk and he does that whole thing and it's like yeah kind of true but at the same time like one of the reasons you make all the money you make is because the fans pay for tickets the the media companies pay for the rights to show games and to talk about them and it's all part of the game. You could play for free and maybe you would. But it seems like you like the money.

Yeah, he likes the money. I often use the thinks he's smart. It's not necessarily that he thinks he's smarter, although I think it's a part of it. What I think Kyrie feels, and he comes across at minimum, is he's more

enlightened than you. He's got this ability to see the chessboard in a way that you can't see it. Do you know what I mean? And he uses bones a lot. You're like, whatever, man. All right. I did a podcast with him somewhere in 2018.

I thought he was really impressive. This was before... I mean, that was probably his last normal spring-summer, although there were a lot of signs even at that point. But we talked for an hour. I thought he seemed like he was really engaging and really curious. And I felt like it was my kind of podcast, right?

We did it in person. We had a real talk about all these different things, and I enjoyed it. And I was like, oh, that? We did it in person. We had a real talk about all these different things and I enjoyed it. And I was like, oh, that guy's a really smart guy. And then I never would have predicted what the next five years would bring. But even that press conference when he's going after Nick Friedle,

who's doing his job, it's like, hey, this happened. This is a big thing right now. The video you did, can we talk about that? And he was just so dismissive of it. I don't think Adoka can fix it. I'll be really interested to see. If you had to guess, you have to bet.

You have to bet. I don't know what we'd bet. Bet something that's important to you. Is Kyrie on the N in February no I'm gonna say no too yeah I you know I have no faith that that the distractions stop and at some point even Sean Marks who hasn't I mean I know at some point we can't do it right yeah it's Sean Marks Is Sean Marks there in February? Yes, but maybe not in August? Or maybe not in July? I don't know.

But yes and then at some point no. Are the Nets in the playoffs in April? Oh. Man, what's the bottom of that East looking like? Do you put me on the spot with that one? No, I'm going to give you. Give me what we got.

We'll do this and then we can go. I'm going to give you a whole bunch of teams. And you tell me if they're a playoff team before Brooklyn is. All right. Milwaukee? Yes. Cleveland? Yes.

Boston? Yes. Toronto? Yes. All? Yes. Toronto? Yes. All right. So there's four. Philadelphia? Shit.

It's getting bleak. Yes. That's five. I have all the same five. Atlanta? No. Yes. No.

Borderline. 50-50. All right. So Atlanta's our first 50 50 yeah Miami I'm not playing great but yes I have faith yes yeah I put them ahead of both of those teams I think they're I think they're fine all right so you have those six and then you have a class so we're gonna say Brooklyn, maybe the Knicks, and Chicago.

Chicago, yeah. Yeah, they're in, man. So at least in the playing game. I'm more worried about Miami than most. Are you really? Yeah, I am. And they're doing a big thing of being like, don't worry about us. And I'm like, okay, cool. I'm going

to worry if that's okay. I'm going to worry. I'd be interested to hear, like, because I have some concerns too, but I just trust the Heat. But what's up with them for you? I don't think Lowry is the same Lowry anymore. Last year, you could have been like, oh, well, maybe. But now we've seen two years.

He's just not the same guy. And there's too many good point guards now. And he can do all the tricks that he wants, but I don't think he's an impact player like they thought he was going to be for 30 million bucks.

And the Duncan Robinson thing, it seems like that ship, I think they're playing tonight, so it'd be funny if he had like 38 points, but they're counting on him to come back and he didn't. And Oladipo,

they're counting on, he's already hurt. He's already hurt. So those are my three big if guys and we're 0 for 3 on the if guys. And in general, I just think the East is better. And I think that I've said, keep saying this, but the talent in the league is staggering to me. There's so many good players.

The Kings right now, I think they're either two and four. That team has a bunch of good players. You know what else I've been watching? I don't know if you felt the same way, but from the games I've watched, the tenor of the games is beautiful.

It's great. These are competitive. They don't feel like fourth week and third week of the season games. They're really getting after it. No, there's some good stats about the 100 points per offensive present. All those stats are really high.

They're unusually high compared... First couple weeks is supposed to be choppy. Right. But the efficiency of the offenses and the points production, all that stuff, is where it usually gets to around midway through the season when teams are comfortable. And you can see it when you watch the games.

Like, any team is down nine, they can race the lead. Every team has guys off the bench who can come swing three, four minutes. And that's why I look at the Nets and, you know, I'm probably more down on Kyrie than anything as a superstar because I just don't think he is. I think part of that is being a culture guy. Part of that is defense, which he doesn't play. I don't think he makes anyone better, part of that is being a culture guy. Part of that is defense,

which he doesn't play. I don't think he makes anyone better, but I think he's a brilliant one-on-one player. He would have been better off as a tennis player. But other than that, they don't have

even anybody close to being an all-star in that team. And I think now, I don't think two guys is enough. And for them, I think they have like one and two-thirds guys

because Kyrie's not a two-way player. He's a one-way player. Yeah, no, I would agree. I think after that, you're in trouble. And especially if you're going to play the way they've kind of played offensively through, what, six games or seven, six games at this point. Yeah, I like Atlanta's team more.

And, you know, you could see last year, the sweep to me, I think people should have been more alarmed by that and they seem to make excuses about it. Oh, if Ben didn't play, it's like the fact that Tatum could look Durant in the eye like that

and go head to head with him the way he did, I think should have been alarming from that. That was supposed to be their one advantage that it's like, it's Giannis and it's Durant and he's on that top, top level. But, you know, we went against Giannis the next round who was the biggest beast to go against, and it was just a different level of player.

Anyway, we'll see how this goes. What a season. How are you feeling about the Suns before we go? I like the Suns, man. Anytime you get out there and defend like they do, they have multiple guys who can get a bucket. I like Monty. I like their culture in a way that

I like them. Do they win a chip? I don't know that they win a chip, but I like them culture in a way that I like them. Do they win a chip? I don't know that they win a chip, but I like them in the West. You know what I wasn't expecting with them? My guy, Jack, who I forgot was on their team. And I thought he had some moments on San Antonio last year where it's like, this guy on a playoff team will be fun. And then he kind of snuck onto the Suns and he's perfect for them. So I thought that's the one way

they're a little different. I still, I don't love their backup points, but you could always get that. But I thought he's kind of a fun addition. They haven't. They've been begging for it

for two years. Like, let's get one. Well, they could have drafted Halliburton. Tough one. All right, Raja,

we can hear you twice a week. Yes, sir. With Logan murdoch yep real one um and uh and that's it and i'm i looking forward to getting invited at some point when there when there's some sort of story just send the bad signal out i'm there fair enough man you got one and we got to have your son throw to my son at some point in the next three years oh we're coming out man we're waiting for the invite Are you coming to LA?

Is there some camp you can come to? Steve doesn't know it There's like a Steve Clarkson dream maker camp That I try to bring him to a couple times We're going to try to make it this year But as soon as Steve he doesn't know this yet Gets camp set back up Oh we're coming out

Alright great good to see you my friend You too, bro. When you ride transit, please be safe. Yeah, be safe. Because what you do, others will do too. Others will do it too. So don't take shortcuts across tracks. Don't do that. In fact, just don't walk on tracks at all. Not at all. Trains move quietly, so you won't hear them coming. You won't hear them coming. See, Safe riding sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned.

Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. Ugh. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. All right, Benjamin Solak is here. He's usually on the Thursdays show.

We're stealing him for today. And then Philly's good luck charm, Shio Kapadia. We hired him for the ringer over the summer. And then the Philly sports scene became the most interesting place on the planet. There's been a dramatic Philly's run. The Eagles are undefeated. We have an NFL trade deadline that matters. I don't know. Why was it so magical for us? It's making me a little uncomfortable. I tell Ben when we do these Eagles postgame pods, I'm like, I'm not used to just coming on and talking about how great a team is. I think as you would know, the Sixers are going to give us

some ammo once this Phillies run is over. I'll be able to get that negative energy out of my system. But yeah, they had this Phillies season coming out of nowhere combined with the Eagles. It has been quite the run since I joined. Yeah, I'll take credit for it. Well, if you love Philly sports or if you like Philly sports, these guys are jumping on the ringers, Philly special, doing a bunch of Eagle stuff. They had one today. I'm stealing them for the trade deadline because they were taping.

I didn't know the trade deadline was going to matter. Solak claimed he did. Why did you think the trade deadline was going to matter? So I think, right, like hindsight's 20-20. Now that I know the deadline matters, here's my logic. At the time, I was just like, yeah, it's going to be good. It's been a weird year where you have a clearly good team in the Bills, two more clearly good teams in the Chiefs and the Eagles with some bumps in the road. And then everything else is just like the weird six in one Vikings. The Ravens are definitely good, but they've also lost three road. And then everything else is just like the weird six in one Vikings.

The Ravens are definitely good, but they've also lost three games. And the Dolphins are great when two is healthy. There's just so many teams that reasonably could talk themselves into contending. Like the Dolphins are the most interesting team in terms of kind of identifying this shift. The reason the Dolphins had a first round pick to trade for Bradley Chubb is because they were moving back out of the third overall pick, right? They were like a terrible team that was falling apart and they were firing their coach and the owner was getting cited for tampering. And like, this was a total mess, but then, Hey, you got Tyreek Hill in the building. Every time Tua plays, your offense looks great. Why not go get a Bradley Chubb? Because the

Packers aren't what they were. The Bucs aren't what they were. The Rams aren't what they were. The Broncos aren't what they were. There's rooms aren't what they were. The Rams aren't what they were. The Broncos aren't what they were. There's room. There is space in the top to kind of push and try to get into this second tier of NFL contenders. And I think that convinced a lot of teams that, hey, some of these expiring contract players like Bradley Chubb, like Roquan Smith,

like TJ Hawkinson, like Chase Claypool, they're worth it. Let's take a swing. Shield, the Miami trades back in that Lance trade. They got a first round pick. They used it to move up for Waddle that same year. They sent another one to Casey for Tyreek. And then they sent another one for Chubb. And Trey Lance isn't playing. It's a pretty amazing trade. I mean, it's early. Trey Lance could end up being whatever, but pretty amazing how that works out. We always talk about blue chippers, red chippers,

pink chippers, all different chippers. At least two blue chippers, and Waddle's probably a red chipper, but that is about as well as it works out for a team with a trade, right? Yeah, there's no doubt, and they traded up to get Waddle. They could have had even more picks, but Waddle. They could have had an even, you know, more picks,

but not, I mean, Waddle's turned out great for him. He's been fantastic, but they had even more draft demo. Yeah. It goes back to the old, like,

you know, draft thing when in doubt, just trade back and get more picks and, and take more shots on players, sort of the analytical thinking about it. I don't think it's always the right thing to do. Specifically, if you need a quarterback,

I feel like you got to take a shot on a quarterback. But yeah, you mentioned it. If they were riding with Tua, you can move back. You can get these extra picks. I'm not fully on board with Ben with this Chubb trade. I mean, I look at it. And the one worry I have is when you trade for a guy like Chubb, who's in the last year of his contract,

when that extension is not part of the trade, now all of a sudden he has all the leverage in this. I mean, at the end of the season, if you don't sign him to an extension, now he can say, all right, what are you going to do? Franchise tag me? Just not sign me? You gave up a first round pick for me. What? You're not going to keep me here anymore? So he's a player who's had some injury issues. I think he played in what, 25 games the previous three seasons. So I understand going for it. I usually like being aggressive. If I were in that front office,

I'd be saying, hey guys, you know, Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, are we sure we're going to be competing with them this year? Do we want to give up a first round pick right now? So I'm not fully on board with that one. I think it's okay. I think it's defensible.

It's a very good player who's young at a premium position, but I'm not sure I board with that one. I think it's okay. I think it's defensible. It's a very good player who's young at a premium position, but I'm not sure I would have made that deal if I were the Dolphins. I would definitely say the logic of how the Dolphins so quickly convinced themselves, like, hey, let's push. Let's contend right now. That, to me, makes sense.

A first for Bradley Chubb is healthy. That is a big swing at the plate. And when we talked, Sheila, on Extra Point Taken, on the Ring around NFL feed, I talked about Josh Allen, the Jaguars' rusher to the Dolphins, because that made more sense to me from a scheme fit perspective. Bradley

Chubb here still works, but now you got just a big traditional rush defensive end with Jalen Phillips, who's also that like Melvin Ingram is going to come off the bench now and kind of they need a player of his role to drop and coverage a little bit weird. So I'm very interested to see how well Bradley Chubb works for the Dolphins. I get why they did it. It is a very pretty penny for what to me is like a second, third tier rusher in the league. You know, she'll makes a good point in the extension.

I like the totality of what they did, but if I'm doing that, I need to feel like I'm going to win this Super Bowl. And here's my fear for the Dolphins. This is why, as a Pats fan, I was kind of glad they did this. They're coming off, they beat Pittsburgh 16-10. A game that really, if

Kenny Pickett makes one throw, Pittsburgh might have actually stolen that game. And then they beat Detroit by four, and I know you guys know all the might've actually stolen that game. And then they beat Detroit by four. And I know you guys know all the numbers and stats from that game, but I mean, Detroit's one of the worst defenses in the last couple of years. Hill was open, like where there was no lions around him on the TV when he was open, like that kind of open. And I just wondered, are you overreacting because you're coming off like you barely beat the Lions? Now they have Chicago and Cleveland coming up

as their next two bye week, then Houston. And then it gets harder after that. But I don't know, when you throw in the fact that Tua is one more hit away from not playing again this season, it felt pretty risky to me. I'm with you, I'm with you, Shale. I don't think this closes the

gap with Buffalo and Kansas City, but if they can sign Chubb to an extension and you put him and Phillips together, Chubb's 26, Phillips is 23, and you're just going forward with those two guys, I like that long-term. And the other thing is, some organizations, you look at a move like this and you're like, they deserve the benefit of of doubt. Okay, they're going for it. The Dolphins changed their mind on what they want to be every three months. They're tampering on boats with Tom Brady and Sean Payton and they're firing Brian Flores. And I mean, they'd like to, then they're trying to trade for Deshaun Watson. I mean, they changed their mind on who they think they are every three months.

And so I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt in this situation. Now, if you're a fan, I don't like going overboard with this because if I'm like a Dolphins fan right now, I'm just like, cool, I'm excited. Our team has been irrelevant. We've sucked. Now we have a fun offense for the most part. We made a big trade for a pass rusher. Let's go have fun and have a fun 2022 season and think about the rest after that. So I think there's two sides of it, but yeah, he's not going to be cheap. I mean, he will probably command, I would say, 18 to $20 million per year for Bradley Chubb if you're going to sign him to an extension. And if he has the leverage,

it could even go north of that. Well, Ben, we like Buffalo more than Miami. Yep. Would you say you like Kansas City more than Miami? Because I would. Baltimore with Roquan Smith. I think I like them more. So there's three. Now we're moving into, well, Tennessee is going to win the AFC South just because Vrabel can obviously just take a Pop Warner team and go nine and eight in that division.

I don't like them more than ball more than a Tennessee. Probably like them now that the Bengals, they, uh, they lose one of their best cornerbacks today. Their defense is getting racked. Burroughs taking a shitload of hits that Bengals would have been. We did a whole thing on Thursday on the show about,

you know, or the Bengals kind of the sneaky sleeper pick. I don't feel that way anymore, especially after last night. So there's a case. They're the fourth best team of the sneaky sleeper pick. I don't feel that way anymore, especially after last night. So there's a case they're the fourth best team in the AFC. So from a draft pick standpoint, not as much of a disaster maybe, but could you see them being in the top four in that conference? Yeah, I think they're the fourth best team in the AFC.

I did like in the middle of the trade deadline, I did like, okay, in this moment of time, what teams do I think have a shot to win the Super Bowl, like an actual chance right now to win it. And when I went through, I had those three AFC teams, I had the Chiefs, the Bills and the Ravens. And then I added the Dolphins on the end of the list. To me, it's it's it's those four AFC teams, and then the Niners, the Cowboys and the Eagles. So you have the Dolphins, like potentially being like a last year's Bengals. I can't believe this team's in the Super Bowl. Holy shit. How did this happen team? And yes, and that's because the

the ace in the hole, the peak for the Dolphins is as high if not higher than any other peak when it's Tyreek and Jalen Waddle and having to deal with that amount of speed late in a season when you're tired, when you're banged up if they can keep that duo and to a healthy there's just a nightmare to do. It's just so exhausting to play that for four quarters.

Now, they'd have to win three shootouts in a row with the way this defense has been playing, right? To this point in the season, Dolphins defense, 25th by DVOA. And that's where I think you start to understand the Bradley Chubb thing, because they've been so bad right now at generating pressure without blitzing, right? Under Brian Flores, they were historically a blitz heavy team. That's how they generated their pressure. This season, a 19.9% pressure rate on non blitzes, 29th in the NFL from next gen stats. If you can get Chubb and Jalen Phillips and Melvin Ingram all on the field for a rushdown and get somebody at the quarterback, then you know what? We might get a couple of peak defensive games. We might get a couple of sneaky

good defensive games there in January. Just get a little bit lucky, and that's going to get us past the Bills in the divisional round. That'll get us past the Chiefs in the divisional round. That'll bring us to the Final Four. So I think the Dolphins... Sheil doesn't agree with this. Sheil's recoiling in horror. I mean, I was trying to be polite and not interrupt.

Their peak, as high as the Bills and the Chiefs, the Buffalo Bills and the Kansas City Chiefs, the playoffs game we watched last year. This is the Bills team they beat like a month ago, right? That's the Bills team we're talking about? Oh, come on. Talk to me in January.

I mean, I do not see how you can put it. Listen, Tua has, I know, I don't want to get crushed by Tuanon here. They've had a fun offense. They're crushing these, they're crushing these opponents and they're producing explosive plays against the, I don't see how you can put them in that category for teams quarterback by

Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes and coaches with a better track record and veteran defensive staff. That's a key point. The coach, like I don't feel good about this coach at all. I thought that Pittsburgh performance was appalling. So we don't know what he's going to be like in December and January.

We have no idea. Yeah, I think he's been a fun offensive coach. Other than that, I'm sort of with you. Once there's adversity, other stuff that happens, they've had sort of a rocky time here. I'm not trying to crush the Dolphins completely. They've had a fun season. But yeah, I don't think you can put them on that same plane. I'm not trying to crush the Dolphins completely. They've had a fun season, but yeah, I don't think you can put them on that same

plane. I hear it, especially because of the injuries that they had over the last month. Again, if it's healthy, what I've seen from this offense, if it's healthy Armstead, healthy Tyreek Hill, healthy Jalen Waddell, healthy Tua Tungabailoa, to me, that's a 30 point per game offense. I see Ben's

point. You're talking purely ceilings, which if we're making like a who can win the Super Bowl list, like my team is not going to make the Super Bowl, my beloved New England Patriots. We are sailing, even though the rush state, like we're too slow. Linebackers are too slow, and I don't think we can get enough

explosive plays. And you go on through the list, there's reasons to talk yourself out of teams. But it gets like, Minnesota is probably the cutoff line for me. Like my best man at my wedding, Minnesota Viking fan. We were texting yesterday and I was like, have you ever been less excited about a six and one Vikings team? And he's like, yeah, nobody's talking about it.

Nobody believes, probably could have lost the Cardinals game. They get three turnovers in the fourth quarter, but nobody believes. But to me, Minnesota is probably the cutoff of just because the NFC is so bad and your Eagles could just completely, I could see them just completely shit in the bed at home because we've seen that happen

how many times over the years? Who knows? But yeah, I have Miami under that my Minnesota cutoff line, personally. I don't trust the two a thing. I really, I just watched it in the last couple weeks. I think they've been really careful about making sure he doesn't get hit. And there's going to be a game.

Maybe it'll be San Francisco in a couple weeks, whatever. But somebody's going to try to really rough him up and see how it goes. I agree. That's my concern as well. If you had told me you got me in a room with three people and I was the biggest two-a defender in the room, man, I never would have believed you. But here I am. That's how concern as well. If you had told me you got me in a room with three people and I was the biggest two-way defender in the room, man, I never would have believed you. But here I am. That's how the NFL season gets you.

Well, shit. When people play the Lions, everybody looks like an all-pro after that game, right? I mean, he was like Alabama again. Guys were wide open by seven yards. So we have... They also got Jeff Wilson, who I think is good. I thought that was a sneaky one for them. They're just grabbing Niners things over again. So going through the rest of the big trades,

the Ravens getting Roquan Smith, which happened a while ago, where you're given a second for a linebacker, which I would say is one of the most disposable positions. If you're just talking from a team building standpoint, linebacker, tight end, guard, those are ones. If you're just talking from a team building standpoint, linebacker, tight end, guard, those are ones. But you make that kind of trade when you feel like you're not that far away. Do we feel like Baltimore, not that far away? Because their offense has been pretty disjointed. It seems like it's this tug of war between this weird Roman offense that doesn't work.

And then over and over again, Lamar having to either salvage it in the second half or Audible, whatever. Do you feel like they're close? Yeah, Solak's higher on them than I am. I think I'm not putting them in that Chiefs-Bills tier. I'm kind of with you. What do they hang their hat on, the Ravens? Like, what's the one thing they do?

Yeah, what's their identity? Yeah, that they do, that other teams are like, oh my gosh, this is going to be a disaster. Now, their offense statistically has been very good, but we've all watched it. There's been stretches where you go, that offense certainly looks stoppable. You force them to pass. They don't have a lot of

firepower on the outside. Rashad Bateman is not in there. So, I was on the fence with that trade. Like, if you told me, hey, Roquan Smith is going to be their linebacker for the next, like, eight to ten years and just be the face of that defense and be awesome, I could say I could absolutely see that in that Raven scheme. On the other hand, it goes back to the Chubb discussion. You're going to have to pay Roquan Smith, and that's $19 million top of the linebacker market for an off-ball linebacker.

When, by the way, you still got to sign that quarterback to over $46 million a year floor. By the way, $46 million is the floor, the Kyler Murray contract. So I'm not sure I would have invested. I don't think push come to shove. I would have said, no, I'm not doing that deal if I'm the Ravens, because you're giving up a second and a fifth. It's not crazy draft capital, but it's not nothing. You're going to need to build depth on the roster.

And I don't buy that. I think it might be a little more challenging than people think for Roquan Smith to come in and all of a sudden just be a part of that defense and be awesome right away and be a game changer. So I think he's definitely an upgrade for them. Again, if I'm a Ravens fan, I'm probably excited about it. Yeah, give me a 26-year-old, really fun, really good off-ball linebacker. But I don't think I would have invested my resources there given what he's

going to cost to keep him long-term. Ben, you feel like this could have gone two ways with the Bills, where they're like the guy in fantasy who's so far ahead, nobody else wants to trade because they're like, screw it, he's going to win anyway, which is kind of how I feel about Buffalo unless I'm Kansas City. But I don't feel like Baltimore is wired that way. I think Baltimore feels like we get to December, January, scoring is going to slow down. We have Justin Tucker. We have the infrastructure. We know how to win these tight games. And let's be honest, Buffalo and tight games over the years, despite how awesome they've been, I still kind of want to see them pull out a couple close ones January.

So I can kind of see it from their perspective, but I don't like the way they, I don't love the way they look. Yeah, so I think, right, you, I think a lot of what Baltimore changed this past offseason was with that vision in mind of playing a January game against Mahomes and against Allen.

Because the book on these quarterbacks is you can't blitz them. You cannot give them less than seven guys in coverage. Allen and Mahomes will just kill you if you try. Their ex-defense coordinator, Donal McMartindale, all he does is blitz. And he's good DC. He's been great for the Giants,

but it was okay. We can't build around this identity because when we run into the elite quarterbacks in our conference, this is the one thing they beat. So you go and you get Mike McDonald. They don't blitz nearly as much. They kind of bluff the blitz and they drop out of it. And it's

been a difficult transition process. It's been growing pains. Every week they get a little bit better and they kind of figure out what they like and what they don't like. They're getting replacements. They're getting help. David Ajabo, who's their second round pick at EdsRusher, healthy, hoping to come back. Tyus Bowser, who's another outside linebacker for them, healthy, hoping to

come back. They're getting some resources, and I think they're improving, but there was still more that was needed. The thing about, yeah, they traded a second-round pick and are going to have to give a major contract to Roquan Smith. We also got to remember, Roquan is a multiple-time

All-Pro player. He's been on the second-team All-Pro team in back-to-back seasons. I never, I think categorically, I don't mind trading a second round pick for a guy who's been an all pro multiple times on his rookie contract. Like that just to me is just like, all right, I have a general understanding of positional value. Once a guy in his second year is decided by his peers is like the third best linebacker in the league. This is the talent I want to invest in. I want to look at, right the other thing is, with the way their offense works, it's not like a big investment at wide receiver is something that they're seeing coming down the mountain. The Shield brings up,

I don't know if they should put their resources here at linebacker spot. Well, they put a ton of resources into edge rusher, Odafei Owe, David Ojabo. They have these guys here. They've put their resources into Lamar. They have their resources at corner. I could have seen, I would have liked more investment at corner. That I would have been okay with, but they have their investment at corner. They have their investment in tackle.

Like because of the offense they run under Lamar, it's not like, like they should go get a third receiver. They should go get a better one, but they're never going to. That's not the way they've decided to run things. So the position that's like left is linebacker. Patrick Queen has been a liability for them. They don't have a good coverage linebacker who makes this split safety stuff work.

I get why they ended up here, even though like, I think getting a Marcus Peters replacement would have been smarter. I think getting a legitimate third wide receiver, especially with Rashad Bateman's health issues would have been smarter. I can understand how they arrived here where they were like, multiple all pro linebacker Roquan Smith, 25 years old, is available, and we feel good about the rest of our roster. Let's make the move. I agree with you. If you're a top four guy at any position other than special teams, that's at least worth

the second runner. I have a hot take. I thought that was a good Hawkinson team because I know they already have Andrews. I like Lively. Lively had a little moment in that Tampa game. But I don't know why they keep trying to grab all these receivers for Lamar when it actually seems like they should be going the other way. And it goes back to the identity thing.

Describe the Ravens in a sentence. I don't really know how to do it this year. What are they? Are they a ball control team? What's their ideal win? Is it 19-17? Is it 16 to 13? What is it? It's probably what you say with special teams. It's like, you haven't, I mean, that's really when they win games, that's where they're good, but it's like, yeah, it feels like every Ravens game that's on national TV. It's everyone's either going,

oh my gosh, Lamar, he's on fire or everyone's going, oh my gosh, Greg Roman, get him out of here. This offensive coordinator stinks. It's like one or the other every single game. Well, yeah, I don't know. I mean, the run game, you can always hang your head on their run game with Lamar Jackson. He's just going to be harder to defend than anyone else. So I think that's what it would be.

I think ideally they would want that defense to be like a top five, top eight defense, and then their special teams, the best in the NFL. So I think it's more low scoring. Like you said, it's probably- Let's get to the fourth quarter. Yeah. We control the ball 34, 35 minutes. Lamar makes some plays.

Yeah. You know, maybe like 24, 17. I think they would like more lower scoring type games. I think they feel like Harbaugh can give them an edge with some of the game management stuff that they do. Again, the offensive numbers are really good. I think they're a really good team. I think they'll be in the playoffs. I think they'll have some big wins,

but I still don't fully trust the offense. Specifically, if you get down in a game, you have to pass the ball. Who's making the play? We've seen it. These number one wide receivers, the A.J. Browns, the Tyreek Hills. I mean, these guys, Jamar Chase, Justin,

these guys just changed the entire game. They're problem solvers. Third and three, what do we want to do? Red zone, what do we want to do? Oh, throw it to A.J. Brown. Like they don't have that guy.

And I think some of these offenses, unless you have Allen or Mahomes at quarterback, if you don't have that guy, you're going to get into some tough situations in close games. Yeah, it feels like week eight, week nine, as we head to mid-November, it's usually when teams kind of have to figure out what the hell are we, right? If they haven't figured

out by week 10, you're at nowhere. Like the Packers, we thought that was going to be this ball control running team and Rodgers moving into like the LA 97, 98 stage of his career, right? Where he's not the gunslinger anymore. It's Terrell Davis. And he's almost like the most glorified game manager of all time. It felt on Sunday night,

even though that was a bad game for them, but at least like they ran the ball for over 200 yards, you know, and maybe that's who they should be. And maybe they'll realize that, right? Like my, my mediocre Patriots team, they know who they are. They're going to play a bunch of defensive backs. They can rush the passer and they're going to try to control the ball on the ground and they don't want to make mistakes. And every time they make a mistake, it's like you're shooting Belichick with a, with a bow and arrow. Um, the Green Bay, like I feel

like Green Bay is the, even though they're three and five, for some reason, I can't count them out of that division yet. And I was looking at the, the FanDuel, the, the Super Bowl odds.

So Baltimore is 14 to one. Minnesota is 16 to one. And then Miami's all the way down at 28 to one. So like, I know you've, I know you've kind of ogled this. Yep. Right.

I'm more than one. You're like, Oh, you've done more than you actually asked it out on a date. Yeah. The mid season bets I've made for Superbowl winner and for champ conference championship winners have been the San Francisco 49ers and the Miami dolphins.

Those have been the two teams that over the last couple of weeks I've been like, yeah, I can see it. Maybe you want to take this one for at least maybe a drink, maybe a cup of coffee. Packers are 55-1. I have no interest.

Okay, no, you're out. So we feel like the Packers, that ship has sailed. I agree with you. I think that the Packers continue to... Because I think that conference is bad. So I don't know who... Whoever gets in, I feel like at that point, it's like March Madness. No, I agree. I very much

think the NFC playoffs is going to be really weird. I am excited for it. The thing about the Packers is there's so much visibility on how Rodgers is behaving, like he's kind of like quiet quitting and just like chucking the ball out to people and like, are his rookie receivers actually good? And like the line, David Bakhtiari, who's starting the running game, Aaron Jones,

A.J. Dillon, who gets the carries. The other side of the ball is the problem yeah they like Matt LaFleur got asked an oppressor I think it was after the bill before the bills game excuse me kind of about like Joe Barry's job security and looked like stunned that it was even being questioned he's like flabbergasted that people were like Joe Bear like really you want to talk about defense Joe Barry have you watched the team play? There are seven first round picks starting on that defense. There's another one, the rookie Devontae Wyatt, who can't break onto the roster.

They have invested the world into this defense. And they're like still trying to figure out the cornerback rotation. They got like a Donald Savage getting outplayed by Rudy Ford. It's a complete and total mess, schem and personnel wise to the point where like, even if the Packers were to kind of figure out something on offense, get a little bit better. Like, I don't think they'd be back to the MVP levels with Rogers.

And I don't think this defense has any gas in the tank for like the Minnesota level offenses, the Dallas level offenses, let alone San Francisco and Philadelphia. Hmm. So I can't, I can't quit the idea of Green Bay yet, even though, I don't know. I just feel like I don't trust Minnesota.

It's a three-game switch. I think the Fandles, the Division I's now for Green Bay, let me see if I can find this. They're plus 850. Now they play Minnesota again, and there's 10 games left, and there's injuries, and there's all games left and there's injuries and there's all kinds of weird shit. I don't know. I can't quit them. Am I crazy? Yeah. I don't think you're

crazy. I think the NFC is a three team race, Eagles, Niners, and Cowboys. I think one of those, I think those three, those are clearly the three best teams. But you mentioned the Packers to what Solak just said. I mean, I think people would be surprised the Packers offense eighth and offensive DVOA right now. So it's looked disjointed. It hasn't looked good. We're all going, why did you trade Devontae Adams? And I've been right there. I've been crushing them. I've said Packers fans have been insufficiently furious or angry with how they handled that situation and didn't replace him. But I'm kind of with you. I watched that game Sunday night and I go, all right, the defense was at least competed till the end.

Dobbs made some plays. They ran for over 200 yards. I was like, maybe there is a little bright spot here. And so for those odds, I don't think it's crazy. I mean, I just think they don't have the firepower on offense. You would really need one of those wide receivers to emerge. Now, maybe it happens, but if you look at history, like pretty much Aaron Rodgers as the quarterback, regardless of coordinator, receivers, O-line, you have a top 10 offense. Like we have a long library of seasons where that has been the case just in terms of efficiency. And my thing is like, if you have like a top eight offense, you can get to the Super Bowl. I mean, if you throw everything else out the window, coaching, defense, can you have a top eight offense Just like you look at the DVOA rankings at the end of the season and you can get to the Super Bowl. And, you know, that would be what is Ben trying to make a Dolphins point?

Why am I going to have a top eight offense by DVOA, baby? Well, they are. So if the Packers, if the Dolphins were in the NFC, then I would buy your theory a little bit more. I just don't think against the teams they compete against. And if the Packers were in the AFC, I'd be telling Bill that he's nuts and no, don't put any money down on the Packers to make the Super Bowl. Well, Roger said that one throw to Torre, Torre, Torre, whatever his name is. But it was like, it was just classic old school Rogers where he had very little time and he just like the quickest release of all time and zipped it 45 yards. And I've,

I've for some reason I've watched a lot of Packers games this year. They've dropped a bunch of big plays, like at least four that were like just momentum killers. Like even in week one that Watson dropped the long touchdown. So I don't know. I can't totally quit them. I still feel, I can't get the Bengals out of my head last year.

I think the Bengals were of my head last year. I think the Bengals were three and four, maybe three and five, something like that. And we're probably 80 to 75, 80 to one. That's the point. Let's take a quick break. And I want to go through the rest of the trades really quick.

Okay. Guys who didn't get traded. Can we do this quick? Yeah. The saints kept Alvin Kamara. Why do we think they did that, Sheil? I mean, I didn't know who was going to trade for Alvin Kamara. I was seeing like multiple first round picks.

He makes $9 million next year. He's probably going to get suspended next year. I don't know what the big line was for Alvin Kamara. And the way they operate, they think they're going to the Super Bowl every year. Like they don't believe in accumulating draft picks. They going to the Super Bowl every year. They don't believe in accumulating draft picks. They want to hand out their draft picks. So I think they probably still feel like, hey, the NFC is wide open. Maybe we can still make a wild card run. And if not, we'll have him next year. Not saying that's smart. I was wondering if that could be a possible

Chiefs trade. I don't know why, but the McCaffrey thing kind of unlocked my brain for Andy Reid and those guys going, hey, wait a second. What's our version of a McCaffrey trade? Let's at least have a half hour meeting about this. And then saying, all right, what if we just got Kamara and gave them Clyde Edwards, Hilaire and whatever else? And we just tried to figure it out. But I think you're right. It doesn't seem like the Saints want to be sellers. The Patriots, we don't need to talk about this, but I thought for sure they were trading Nelson Aguilar and Damian Harris, and that didn't happen.

No Rams trade, which feels like a white flag? Yeah. Is that fair? I was very surprised. We started the day with the report, the Rams offered multiple first-round picks for Brian Burns. How did they have multiple first-round picks? And we ended

the day with the Rams could not trade Cam Akers. And it's like, wow. I forgot that Les Snead is allowed to pass on a deadline. Very, very surprising to me. And if you're the Rams, Shale, you don't have it this year. Why would you put more resources into this season? You're going nowhere.

I think they're minus 39 point differential. It's the third worst in the entire NFL. They're going nowhere. I think they're minus 39 point differential. It's the third worst in the entire NFL. They suck. Yeah. I'm with you. I don't think they have it this year. That was one of the ones I was looking at for million dollar picks was the stupid Bucs. Not like they've been great shakes, minus two and a half over the Rams. And I just think it's going to take to like week 12 or 13 for people to be like, oh wait, the Rams aren't good. Because we see this every year. There's always that one team that did really well the year before and they go four and 12 or now it would be four and 13. No Packers moves, which I wasn't completely shocked by. And then no Panthers. The Panthers fire sale never materialized, Ben. My Panthers are still alive in the NFC South.

I'm not giving up hope. Yeah, they are. Right. There were a couple of veterans on that Panthers depth chart that I thought were worth calling about and presenting like Shaq Thompson, like Xavier Woods, and some of these guys. But I never expected them to move off of JC.

I never expected them to move off of Derek Brown. And like, yeah, two first round picks, no for Brian Burns is a, hey, we're not actually moving off of Brian Burns response. If you're not moving a non quarterback for multiple firsts, you're not moving that player period. And I understand why. Like, I will continue to believe that a good coach

could turn this Panthers team around really quick. I don't think they'll get a good coach in a building because I don't think a good coach will attach himself to that ownership. But if you were to hypothetically get a good coach in a building because I don't think a good coach will attach himself to that ownership. But if you were to hypothetically get a good coach in Carolina, the defensive bones are really, really good there. They've invested a lot in offensive line recently, and that office line is getting better week in and week out. DJ Moore is under contract like this thing could turn quick for Carolina. The pieces that got Bill Simmons hyped about the Panthers are there, and I'm not surprised that they kept those young guys. Shield, Panthers 2-6.

They lose in week one on a 59-yard field goal by a Browns kicker that hasn't come close to doing anything remotely like that since. And then they lose last week because DJ Moore gets called for a penalty

for taking his helmet off off the field, out of the end zone. I don't know why this wasn't protested, but they're two and six. They're 35 to one to win the NFC South. They're only two games behind the four and four Falcons that none of us believe in.

One game behind everyone else. I'm going to stop. You don't really believe in them. They're playing at Cincinnati, a shell shock Bengals team this week. At Atlanta, at home the next week, they could be 4-6. Who knows? To me, everyone in the NFC South should be in play until we get to week 16.

So anybody having 35-1 odds in the NFC South is nuts. Or do I sound like a lunatic? I mean, I would be shocked. I think they got the little bump from firing a coach, moving to the next coach. I don't disagree with you guys. They have some talented players. P.J. Walker has been fun, but that would be the story.

I mean, if the Panthers rally now and win the NFC South, I don't know how many wins it's going to take, but I would still have them. I think they're probably definitely fourth in terms of the pecking order. I mean, the Bucs are not good, but the Bucs are still, I think, going to be a much better team than the Panthers. I'm not there with you guys, but who knows?

Ben's not there either. Well, listen, I was going to say, I have bullied you for your Panthers optimism for most of the season. You have. I am on them right now, plus 7.5 against the Bengals next week. Oh, thanks, Ben. That means a lot. Well, how about this? Tampa's favored

to win that division, minus 135. None of us like Tampa. Absolutely not. Atlanta is leading by one game. They're plus 250. And then the Saints, who are just like, I don't know what to make of this Saints season. I don't know where that Raiders game came from. There's just a ton of teams on my do not bet list.

I was looking at the week timelines. I'm like, nope, staying away from that game. Nope, that's a stay away. There was like five that were just no chance. A possible stay away team, unless they're playing somebody awesome is the Bears because I'm still scarred from what happened that Pats game.

They trade for Claypool today. I liked it. I like Claypool. Like if, if I'm trading for a young receiver with potential, I want a guy

who has basically never played with a good quarterback. He played with like the corpse of Ben, played with Trubisky and Pickett this year. Craig Horlbeck,

beloved Ringer employee, huge Steelers fan, has been saying that Chase Claypool at the Fantasy Potty has been saying, Chase Claypool is all the same makeup as Megatron. He's made that case. It's Steelers fans' favorite line. If you look at the

mock draftable combine charts, okay? Yeah. They're the same player. Megatron 2.0. I love this move for the Bears. I was like fired up. They did it because I actually,

I'm becoming more and more intrigued by Fields. What did you think, Ben? So I loved hearing that Chase Claypool was a Chicago Bear. They needed to get better receivers for Justin Fields. Claypool, I do agree with you, I think, has more to offer than he got to do with the Pittsburgh Steelers. He was kind of put into the slot with the George Pickens thing. He kind of got in the doghouse a little bit last year

with some of the knucklehead stuff, the Vikings game, but there was complaints, and there was kind of the music of practice comment. There's just some trickiness there. I think that he'll be better in Chicago, kind of away from that. I think that he could be used inside and out. I think he'd be used on go balls outside the numbers which he barely got with the Seahawks, but he's quite good at

like there's a lot that's exciting. Reverses like all the weird gimmick shit they run. He's great at that. Which like the is a little bit concerning that their draft pick at wide receiver this year, Belus Jones Jr. He's another like he's not as tall or as big as Claypool, but he's another like

speed guy, deep outside guy kind of used vertically catch point player and now they're getting another one but you know the bears are kind of in just grab resources most of it's okay but i'm curious to see what the what the snaps end up looking like so i loved to hear claypool was on the bears trading the their own second round pick not the raven second round pick but their second round pick which projects right now to be like somewhere between 35 and 45 that's healthy and and you know NFL drafts prognosticators at this time or like it's not going to be that great of a wide receiver class maybe Ryan Poles is kind of looking forward okay sure but I if I'm picking a receiver before pick 50 I am hoping and expecting to get a player that's as good, if not better,

than what Claypool's looked like over the last couple of years. Like, I think you can do that, right? And so for the Bears to be sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, and then say, hey, our top half of the second round pick, we need to get one and a half years of Chase Claypool before we have to extend him, like right now,

that was surprising to me. So love the player on the team. It's absolutely going to help them. When we get into the nitty gritty of cost benefit, you know, kind of like team building windows, I was surprised they gave up as much as they did.

I know for a fact the Steelers didn't think they were going to get that much for Claypool. So they pulled the trigger quick and I think they got great return on a player that they didn't expect

was going to deliver that value to them. I mean, what is their plan? OK, the new regime comes in and the entire offseason, they don't make a single move to do anything to help Justin Fields. They don't address the offensive line.

They don't address the wide receiver group. It's a terrible group going into the season. And now it's week nine all of a sudden. I know, let's go give up, like you said, the 40th pick in next year's draft for Chase Claypool, who, by the way, will be a free agent at the end of

next season. The Bears are not going to be good in 2023. So you're doing this for a year and a half. So I'm with you on the surface. I say, all right, the offense has shown some signs of life. It took them eight weeks to figure out. Let's use Justin Fields in the run game a little bit. I mean, what a revelation two months into the season. And now you make the trade for him at this point. It's just like, I'm with you guys on Claypool. I kind of was like, ooh, the Ravens, the Chiefs. If you're a Packers fan, are you just going, could we have not just taken a flyer on Chase Claypool

and made a run at it this year? I think they got priced out. I think they wanted to. And I think the Bears came in with a potential top 50 pick. And Steelers said, bye-bye. So I think that's the answer. Because he was probably worth a low two to one of the contenders. Yeah, that's true. And they go to the Bears

and they're like, look. And the Bears are like, well, we have this other pick. And they're like, cool. It's got to be your pick to get this done. And meanwhile, you have Pittsburgh, who's laughing probably in their war room because they're like, couldn't be happier to get a draft pick because they're just going to put Pickens in there for Claypool anyway.

And he's kind of been a little bit of a problem. A rare good trade for everybody. But I agree, the price is probably a little steep. But yeah, the Packers might have been in there. The Chiefs might have been there.

We might have had like four or five teams in there. I think I'm going to look at it this way. I'm going to zag a tiny bit. I think they need to find out what they have with Fields once and for all, Right. And he's shown enough the last couple of weeks and fields dominates every big picture decision they have.

And you want as many games as possible where it's like, well, at least we know when he had like three decent receivers or two, whatever. So maybe, maybe that drove it. Um, I'm growing, I'm, I'm growing on fields a little bit after he went into my wallet pulled a lot of money out of it and set it on fire he kind of won my respect the Ridley trade is the weirdest trade of the day and probably the year

I I don't know what to say I need a lawyer to explain it to me to fully understand how a player who has to still apply for reinstatement with the league is being traded

for future picks that are conditional on not only his reinstatement, but how well he plays for the Jaguars and for how long he plays for the Jaguars following reinstatement.

I cannot imagine if you printed out the actual details of this trade, kind of all the parsing that would have to occur. Again, like player... Or how does he have trade value?

He's not even suspended for the whole year. He's not in the league. And that's the thing. Again, player to team, Ridley is good for the Jags. Claypool's good for the Bears. Ridley's good for the Jags. They need speed. They need explosive play. He helps them for sure. When does he see the field?

Your guess is as good as mine. How about this? Shield wide today. He's not playing the whole year. So why not just do this trade in like March? After the season. I have no idea when he already applied for reinstatement and you know when he's going to be back. Yeah, that was a strange one.

The timing was strange on it. The only thing you can say if you're the Jaguars, Ridley will make whenever he gets back into the, he plays, he'll be making 11 million a year, which is like a bargain compared to some of these Christian curse and other things. But I'm with you. I mean, in the middle, at the end of October, early November, you're making this deal for a guy who we don't know when he'll be on the field. I don't really understand that one. Yeah.

And I also I can't help but wonder, like, if Jacksonville, you know, we have no idea what's going to happen come draft time. We have no idea where the Jags are going to be picking and who the players are going to be, whatever. But, I mean, if Jacksonville's, like, sitting there with pick 46 and they get somebody on the board, they didn't think it was going to fall for them at receiver, some, like, great first-round receiver slides into the second, they're going to be sitting there and go,

well, we can't, we got to get somebody else. We have Calvin Ridley, you know, the guy we haven't seen play for a year and a half. We've got him. You've, like, kind of a little him. They don't have to do this, but I'm worried they are going to box themselves into next year's receiving room being Ridley and Christian Kirk

and Zay Jones on November 1st 2022, which is just not the right way to go about team building. I didn't understand that one at all because I'm also not a giant Ridley fan. I think he's a classic. If he's your number two, you're happy.

But some receivers are in that tweener spot, right? They're a little too good to be your number two, but I don't feel like they're number one. I feel like that's him. The Jags receiver room right now is a great number two in Christian Kirk, a solid number two in Calvin Ridley, and a low-end number two in Zay Jones.

Why? I don't know, but that's how they decided to build it. I like the bikes getting Hawkinson when he's on the field. He's actually, you know, I probably everyone's had him in fantasy, but he will have those fantasy runs for like three straight weeks where he looks really good. And then the other one that was just super

sneaky. Buffalo just does a little cosmetic surgery, right? They went in, they got like, yeah, let me get my eyes done and just give me like a little Botox. Am I right? They get Marlo. They need a short secondary a little bit. But Hines, who if you've ever bet against the Colts and the Colts are down and then

there's like this Hines quarter where he's just becomes James Wade in the Atlanta Super Bowl. They didn't have anyone like Hines. And I think he's going to help them. I, you know, there was that moment. Who was the running back the Chiefs had last year? I'm blanking. Yeah, there was that McKinnon moment

in one of the playoff games. I think you need those guys. The Pats have desperately needed a guy like that for a couple of years. But I like that. When You like Heinz, Shiel? Yeah, I thought it was fine. Not only for, I mean, they drafted James Cook, who's, you know, a similar skill set, but these teams that think they're going to be in the Super Bowl, it's like, leave no stone unturned, get insurance. If a guy, if Singletary goes down, if Cook goes down, now you have another body and also special teams.

I mean, it's nerdy. It's boring to talk about, but like Hines is a good returner, a good special teams player. So they're all in. They should feel great about their chances to win the Super Bowl. So anything you can do to just kind of protect yourself from injuries, add a little edge here and there.

Yeah, I thought that was a fine move. There's just a lot of statistical evidence pointing to Buffalo being in the Super Bowl. That's pretty hard to deny before we go I wanted to play a fun game with you guys one of you has to take the side of here's why the Eagles won't win the Super Bowl and the other one has to

take the side of here's why they will we'll do a coin flip and Sheila you won because you're newer so you get to pick. You can have one side or the other, and then Ben has to argue the other side. So, Sheila, you pick the side. Yeah, I feel like Ben has more of a generally sunny disposition than I do.

I can be a little bit of a curmudgeon. So I'll just go ahead and lean in to the negative energy and take the— they're not going to win—make the Super Bowl or win the Super Bowl? Win the Super Bowl. Let's hear the case. Now, let's win the Superbowl. Here we go. Okay. The case is that their defense has beat up on a bunch of terrible quarterbacks. And if you look at some of the advanced metrics and take out the turnovers, they're not going to be that good. They're not going to be able to compete when they face the 49ers at full strength,

the Cowboys at full strength. They last year, defense stunk. This year, the talent is better. But are they going to be able to match wits with those great offenses? And then offensively, we haven't seen them just when you have to be a drop-back passing team and it's a two-minute drill in the fourth quarter or you're down 14 in the fourth quarter and the RPOs, the run game, those might not work as well.

And teams can kind of just tee off on you and blitz you. We haven't seen them perform in those situations. So you still have to have some question marks there. How'd I do? Okay. That was solid. Ben, your retort in this fight that I just started for no reason whatsoever. What's your retort? Retort goes like this. AJ Brown, top five receiver. Dallas Goddard, top five tight end. Darius Lay, top five corner. James Bradbury, top 10 quarter. Josh Sweat, As. AJ Brown, top five receiver. Dallas Goddard, top five tight end. Darius Lay, top five corner. James Bradbury, top 10 quarter. Josh Sweat, Hassan Reddick, top 15 rushers.

Lane Johnson, top five tackle. Jordan Maulana, top 10 tackle. Jason Kelsey, top five center. Jalen Hurts, top 10 quarterback. Who am I missing? That's fair. No, that's fair. They are extremely talented on both sides of the ball.

They run simple stuff on both sides of the ball. They run simple stuff on both sides of the ball. And they say, we can adjust to what you do because we have enough talent. We're going to figure out how you want to beat us, offense and defense, and then we're going to get to it. And that's why, like against the Steelers, they're a multiple tight end, drop back, play action pass, run under center team. And then against the Cardinals, they're a four wide bubble screen RPO team. And against the Vikings, they're a quick passing game team.

They just have been so many different things on offense and on defense because they have so much talent to tap into that it feels like, so as long as this coaching staff continues to pitch with gas, continues to stay ahead of the curve, continues to innovate, which they've done through the first eight weeks of the season, they're going to get on top of teams. They're going to show you something different every single week, and that's really, really exciting to see.

So you're banking on some dudes you haven't seen in January, which is tricky. It's scary. Nick Sirianni, Jalen Hurd, Shane Steichen, Jonathan Gannon. We haven't seen them make that run. But with what they put out through the first eight weeks, this team is so multiple that it's hard to think about them getting the air completely taken out of their sails. They're going to be in every game

they play. Good team, bad team, late in the year, early in the year. Doesn't matter. Well, and you're going to get the one seed, it looks like. Yeah. Play no bad teams, but we're going to be as fresh as you ever seen in the middle of January. We ain't sweat for the last month and a half.

Yeah, it's the easiest remaining schedule in the NFL, according to DVOA. You get the first time off, then there's that, that I guess that 2-7 matchup's gonna be pretty favorable to the two seed

this year in the NFC yeah but you you know I I like the roadmap and you're both good

with Sirianni right generally you're like okay with him he's been pretty good this year I've been impressed watching the games

he doesn't say he hasn't his dumb on the dumb ass scale. He's like a three. I was going to say, yeah, we haven't talked about it. We just talked about it on the Philly special pod. Like they had some in-game decision making last week that was good.

And it's like, we don't even talk about it anymore. You kind of take it for granted when a coach doesn't screw it up and it's just going for it at the right times and making the right decisions and not wasting timeouts and pulling a weekly Cliff Kingsbury, you kind of take it for granted. So yeah, he's been good for sure. Amazing stuff. Further evidence.

No head coaches on the headset. Stop calling plays. Just focus on the game, man. He gave play calling to Shane Steichen and it's been great to his credit. And Shale, Phillies in five? I have Phillies in seven.

They're going to have to sweat it out. There's going to be some tense moments, but they'll Phillies in seven. They're going to have to sweat it out. There's going to be some tense moments, but they'll win it in seven. Schwarber home run in the eighth go-ahead home run, and then they'll close it out in the ninth. Schwarber was our guy for three months in Boston. We loved him.

How do you let him go? Exactly. We asked that question all winter. All winter. It's like the perfect DH, the greatest clubhouse guy, eight pitch at bats, 450 foot homers. Like what's not to love? He's the best. I'm ready for him. He's like the uncle. He's like the uncle to all these young guys. Like anytime you need someone to speak for the team and say the right thing, he's the guy. And then he hits 46 home runs. You can't let that guy go. And then you have Bryce just tapping into the

natural talents that we've been hearing about for years and years and years. And then to watch somebody actually kind of reach it was pretty cool. That's a pretty great run. It's hard not to... I hate the Astros, so I'm rooting for you guys obviously. But it's been fun to watch from afar. All right. Listen to

the Ringers Philly Special. Ben, you'll be back on my podcast in a week. You can also listen to Sheil on the Ringer NFL show with Ben one of the times. But it was good to see you guys. Thanks, Bill. Thanks. All right. That's it for the podcast.

Thanks to Raja and Sheil and Ben. Thanks to Kyle Creighton for producing. Thanks to Dylan Berkey as well. And I will see you on this feed on Thursday. We'll have a little basketball, a little football. Maybe we'll have some pop culture. I don't know.

See how we feel. I don't have feelings with him On the wayside I'm a person never lost And I don't have feelings with him