The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Grizzlies’ Future, the Devers Trade, NBA Draft Takes, and a Kon Knueppel Interview | With Chris Vernon, Joe House, and Kevin Hench

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Chris Vernon and Joe House to discuss the Grizzlies sending Desmond Bane to Orlando before talking about the U.S. Open and the NBA draft (2:24). Then, Bill chats with Kevin Hench about the Rafael Devers trade (01:09:10). Finally, NBA draft prospect Kon Knueppel joins the pod to talk about playing for Duke, Cooper Flagg, giving up his Bucks fandom, and much more (01:34:24). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Chris Vernon, Joe House, Kevin Hench, and Kon Knueppel Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is presented by State Farm®. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm® with the Assist. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Verbo Private Vacation Rentals. With Verbo, you can save over $240 on select homes when you stay for a week or more. Say you wanted to go catch a few baseball games in Boston, take some time off work, fly into Beantown, watch the Sox play. After that, book a Verbo and Cape Cod for a week. The world. The world is your oyster. Lobster world, clam chatter. The money lobster roll, a clam chowder.

The money you saved that's your edible metaphor of choice. Next vacation, stay longer and save, make it a Verbo. The Bill Simmons podcast is presented by the Ringer podcast network. We're having new rewatchables that is also going up simultaneously with this podcast, I guess we did Marathon Man as part of New York city month. Uh, and next week, just be ready. I think six days to watch it, Die Hard with the Vengeance will be the next one. And I think that's our 400th episode for the rewatchables. We don't celebrate episodes, we celebrate movies. Getting closer and closer to the 400th movie. Anyway,

Marathon Man is up. You can watch it on the ringer movies, YouTube channel as well. This is my third podcast of the week. It's mid June. A lot of stuff going on. You know, Raphael Devers got traded by the red Sox. Uh, I have con con canipple coming up later. Um, who is going to looks like going to be in the top five of the lottery. So I wanted to talk to him. Uh, there's reasons for that, which we'll get into.

And then at the top, Chris Vernon and I were arguing about the Desmond Bain trade for two days. And we finally decided to have it on the podcast. We brought in Joe House, who has a pretty amazing golf story to start off. And we talked about the Memphis trade, Orlando. We talked about golf and a really weird US open. We talked about the NBA draft, some of the odds that are happening.

And then, uh, some of the perceptions of the city of Memphis, which Vernon was very, uh, passionate about because that was in the news this week. So, uh, a lot coming up here. Third podcast of the week. First, uh, we'll take a break and then. Pearl Jam. This episode is presented by state farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates.

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State Farm, with the Farm with the Assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer availability and the eligibility vary by state. All right, taping this close to dinner time, Chris Vernon is here, Joe House is here, and this is the fourth pot of the week, or it's going to be, cause I had another one Thursday night, but we were arguing on texts. We have other guys. There's just too much sports going on. It's like, fuck it.

Let's just keep doing podcasts. Uh, Bernard was scolding me about my opinions on the Desmond Bain trade cause he's in Memphis. We're making front of house cause he passed out on a golf course. What happened to you last week? House? Tell me what happened to you last week. I didn't passed out on a golf course. What happened to you last week? House? What happened to you last? I didn't pass out on the golf course.

It was the hottest day of the year here in the DMV, Washington, DC, and you add in the humidity and it was a long round. It was a, you know, my, my little club here in the neck of the woods. And, and we, um, we're, we're out there and, and I was, uh, you know, enjoying a couple of gentlemen's beverages as one might with, with his, with his buddies, with his pals and came off the golf course. Okay. It was, I was tired and I had to shower and everything, drove myself home. No problem.

I meet my family for dinner and I sit down and what do I do? Order another service. Of course. Got to be a Mexican restaurant and I'm eating my, my, uh, my shrimp taco salad. And the next thing you know, I'm like, Oh man, I feel a little lightheaded. I'm eating my my my shrimp taco salad and the next thing you know I'm like I feel a little lightheaded not feeling great right now you're gonna have like a stroke or a heart attack no no no no no it was like a little fear like a fainting spell like a little spell I was having a spell and then I was like I should get up and try and get some fresh air let me get up out

of this chair and I go like this I'm on the video, the boys can see it and I go like this. And I'm back down. And then I look up and mama's like, "'Bruh, we are calling an ambulance. Don't move, don't move.' Because you close your eyes there for about 10 seconds." And I was like, I'm fine, I'm fine. Let me get up and walk home.

Just help me get to the car, I'm fine. Like I didn't really lose consciousness and I was lucid enough to have a conversation. And then they brought all the responders. They had to clear the poor people trying to have their burritos on the patio. It was a nice evening when the sun set. And they thought this golfer was dropping dead in the course? Oh no. It was fine. It was fine. They hooked me up, but all I needed was the IV. As soon as they put me in the thing, they gave me some IV.

It was like, Oh, Hey, can I go home now? Please? So, Verno is this drunk house, dehydrated house? What version of house is this? I have so many questions. So wait, is this at the restaurant? At the restaurant. This was like two hours after I was done playing golf.

Is your kid with you? Yeah, that was so he got upset. This is this is this is trauma. To have a great time on the golf course. I will say this. I do. I did start taking a medicine that has the effect of reducing either liquid, you know, whatever diuretic,

and that is a natural dehydration thing. And I had worked out in the morning and I hadn't really hydrated from the workout. And then I went to play golf and I didn't really, I would say I did the opposite of hydrate while I was playing golf. Did you get admitted to the hospital? Like were you in?

What do you mean by admitted? I mean, I went to the ER. You did, you went to the to the how long did it take? You to see the nurse I saw that nurse. We have long no time. I was on a thing You are in they roll me right in yeah, cuz I was right so it's Like what I be here and when I be here yeah, I had a but that was like oh, they gave me eight bags I was there for five hours. I saw the dog docs. Like I was like, what are my restrictions?

What I try to be worried about is you can go live your life, son. You go, go do your best thing. How about this? Go don't drink a whole bunch of vodka seltzers out on the golf course without mixing in the water here and there. What did you shoot? I actually played great. I mean, it's like a...

It's such an advertisement. It's my usual. Severe dehydration. My mid-80s kind of thing. You know, I was happy with my ball off the tee, great tee ball all day long. It does get crazy hot in the DMV, not the Defend House. It was the humidity, and I had not had anything to eat

or drink over the course of the day. I'm a big dummy, what can I say? It was really that medication I had not had anything to eat or drink over the course of the day. I'm a big dummy. What can I say? It was really that medication that I didn't understand the impact of it. He's like, look, it's a new deal. This is PSA. So, Bruno. Electrolytes.

I need electrolytes. Oh, hey, hey. PSA, Bill. Don't mix pills and alcohol. Like we all needed that PSA. No, the pills are already part of the program. I didn't mix it. I just didn't understand the impact of it.

I only been taking them for a couple months. It sounds like a good idea. Like we all needed that PSA. No, the pills were already part of the program. I didn't mix it. I just didn't understand the impact of it. I only been taking them for a couple of months. It sounds like I need to get rid of parent corner and just add old corner. Old man corner. Yeah. They were not boner pills for the record.

Not that I'm against those. I'm just telling you that's not the pill that caused the problem. Oh man. That was not that. In this instance. When you come out here at the end of August, let's just get colonoscopies together. Let's really, let's go full tail.

Let's embrace our own. I'll get another. I'm happy to get as many as you want. If you haven't got yours yet, we'll do it. I'm happy. Well, Verno had his version of a colonoscopy in the form of, they churned me the third best player in the Grizzlies

for four picks and a swap, which he's now defending as like the greatest, this is like the new version of the Paul George Kawhi trade. You're just on every Ringer podcast. No, I did not do that. What I did do was defend that this is, if any other team makes this trade, everybody loves this trade. That's the way this goes, right? If you get that kind of value for a non all-star player, everybody loves this trade, especially

one by the way, a non all-star player that's on a full on max $200 million contract who has four years left of that, right? If that's not good enough for your team with what you have, then if I would have told anybody two weeks ago that they are going to trade Desmond Bain and that that's the level of return that they will get from Desmond Bain, nobody would have believed it. But then when it happens, it's like, wow, this is going to be great for Orlando.

Which I agree. I think it's going to be great for Orlando. Right. Um, but if you are getting that Phoenix pick next year, you're getting the 16th pick in next Wednesday's draft, the 16th pick, which is not a bad pick. Congratulations. Well, there's a lot of players. Last year's 16th pick was Jared McCain.

Three years ago, it was Alper and Shengun. So just don't tell me that you can't get a good player with 16. You got to hit it. You have to hit it. But that's not a bad, that's a good range for the draft to be in. Next year's Phoenix pick, Who knows what that can be. Well, isn't that, that's the, that's the worst one of a Phoenix Washington swap, right?

So it'll be the whatever is a little worse. You get that one. It'll be Phoenix's because Washington's is, I think eight protected. I think it's protected through eight, but so it will be, it will be Phoenix's pick. And who knows where they're going. And then I understand what you're saying about like well and they're gonna be good So those picks won't be good But all I would tell you is if there's anything we have learned in the NBA. It's that we never ever Know two years ago the Grizzlies won 56 games

Then they won 51 then Then they had a lottery pick where they took Zach Eaddy last year. No one would have, we never thought we were going to be having a lottery party ever again. Right. And then it happens. And to wit this year, this year, the number one pick in the draft is a team we watched a year ago in the NBA finals. The number three pick in the draft is a team we watched a year ago in the NBA finals. The number three pick in the draft is the Philadelphia 76ers, who got Paul George last off season. So all I would say is, and look, I expect Orlando has got a great young core.

I think they should be very good. But all I would tell you is you never know and those assets are real and you use those assets. If the Grizzlies don't take the assets that they just got from Desmond Bain and then their cap room and everything else they have and don't improve their roster greatly, then it's a failure, right? But this is, in my opinion, step one of what is going to be an off season where they build

out around John Morant and Jaren Jackson Jr. Now if you want to argue that that's a stupid thing to do, that's fine. I disagree with that. I think it's a smart thing to do because you put those guys with a myriad of different lineups in the past and every time they've won every time When they've been healthy, they have won and in fact they were two games Separated from being the three seed this year So what if memphis would have been the three seed this year then what?

Then would people be talking about possibly? Oh, is this blowing it up? Oh, they shouldn't build around these guys. Oh, like two games. And by the way, from February 15th on the season went to absolute hell and they fired their coach. Right. So, I mean, I would just say, and the other thing is Desmond Bain has gotten more love in the last three days than Desmond Bain has gotten in five years. Five years! I've been watching him every night, rooting for him every night. I love Desmond Bain. But people have talked about Desmond Bain more in a loving and glowing way since he

got traded from Memphis than they ever did when he was playing in Memphis. And the reason I attacked you is because you and Ryan were having your little Memphis hatred party that you guys have. And he hates, he, he, he, he, you don't like Jared. He doesn't like job and Desmond Bain suddenly became a guy. You said I was just at the NBA finals and I watched Desmond or I watched those games and Desmond Bain is the kind of guy that can play 35 minutes in that game. I stand by it.

We played Oklahoma City. We played them. Like that happened. We did play them. And he was 20 for 72 and two and seven for 32 from three and couldn't dribble against any of them. So we played that team, the team that's like the mountain, like the one that you have to climb in, as we think in the Western conference, like we played them.

And he was, I mean, he was pitiful, pitiful passed out in a Mexican restaurant like house. He passed out in a Mexican restaurant. Well, I would just remind you that Jaren Jackson was also horrendous in that series and chat 37% at 20 rebounds total in four games. So if we're going to, I think everybody looks bad against OKC. That's not how I judge my personal moves. House, what was your take when you heard about the trade?

I loved it for Orlando, obviously. And I think that is the main reason for why the glow up of Bain is, is occurring. It's like in this context where it's like, Oh, wow, that's a perfect fit for Orlando. This guy's going to fit in seamlessly and you know, it's all the positive aspects of Bain. And so I think Berno, that's, that's the love that you that you're seeing. It's like, put them in that context. Okay, we get it. But I was watching one of those, one of those dreadful Fox shows in the morning and they had a guy on there and he's like, Oh

Bain, it's a perfect three and D guy. And now this gives Orlando one of the best defensive back course. And I'm like, what? It's like saying you got it CJ McCollum and you right. Like that was the Memphis problem, right? Is that you had, you basically had the new age version of Lillard and McCollum, where you have two diminutive guards, both outstanding players, right? But it's really hard to build, like to, unless you are, and especially when they all start getting paid, like every team's going to go through this, where it's like, where it's time to pay up for the guys, and it's like, man, those three have to be good enough or else, cause you're not going to

have good enough players on the rest of the roster. Like you have to hit everything. Well, Orlando has four. That's why House likes it. But I like it for Memphis because yes, it creates a flexibility to do triple J in a long-term kind of deal. Oh, let's lock him down. I'm a triple J fan.

Well you never, you didn't rebound when you played pickup. Also, Bill, he is, he's been a defensive player of the year, but also thank you to you, no, thank you to you and all of your voting brethren. You just enabled Memphis to be able to really build out a roster. It's $200 million difference. Literally $200 million. Is that true? Yes.

That's amazing. That's amazing. But that's. He would have been eligible for a five year, $345 million contract. Wow. If he would have made third team all NBA. I think he missed it by one vote. So thank you to you. Thank you to you.

Is that true? See this is like Winn-Horse looks at all this stuff. I don't want to know any of this when I'm voting. I don't want to know what the re-applications are. I don't want that power. Now, they can renegotiate this next year. He's on the books for 23. They can renegotiate this next year. He's on the books for 23. They can renegotiate that year, but now instead of his eligible

extension now becomes four years, 147 million instead of five years, 345 million. That's pretty big. So obviously, obviously if I'm paying them four years, 147, I feel great about that. I'm paying him five years, 300. I don't feel great about that at all, House. That's a good deal. Here's the aspect of it that I like for Memphis. Jalen Wells is a dude.

And what Desmond Bain moving on means is we're going to see a lot of Jalen Wells. I think his come up is going to be the replacement level that he's going to be able to put on the table. And they are guaranteed a lottery pick. So it's a trade in my estimation where you're freeing up Jalen Wells to become the player that he can become. And you have a guaranteed lottery pick all those other picks. That's like currency for more deals that climate is going to be willing to deal in as as he

as he does. But really, here's why the trade makes sense for Memphis. Lottery pick next year, Jalen Wells, with a more prominent role. That's why it makes sense to me. They also are gonna go get that wing. You know that that has been their search, right? They tried to get OG and Inobi,

they tried to get McKell Bridges, they tried to get last year, they literally were at the finish line with Dorian, Phinney Smith, who would have been amazing for their team. And of course, Brooklyn leaks the trade, which was canard and con char and a pick. And then gets a better deal from the Lakers. Right. So they leaked out the trade that was already set, that was ready to go down, and then canvassed

the area and got what they thought was a better deal from the Lakers. Okay? So if we're following this, right, whether it was McKell Bridges, whether it was OG and Inobi, they obviously, you know, kicked the tires on Jimmy Butler. And Jimmy Butler went to literally anybody that had an opportunity to say, I don't want to go to Memphis and said that on air, whether it was Mark Spears, whether it was on and on, right? They kicked the tires on Durant, right?

And that couldn't happen last year. Like they made an offer for Durant. So you know that they look at it and they go, we have John Moran. We have Jared Jackson, Jr. We need a wing player to go along with. Can they trade back for Desmond Bain? Right? Stop. They need a wing like Desmond Bain. It sounds like.

Can they get a six five guy who's a 40% three point shooter, 20 a game and five assists a game? Okay. Well, if we still had Desmond Bain, you'd have the under for the Grizzlies next year. So you didn't think it was good enough. Cause your best guy plays 40 to 50 games a year. That's why I would have the under. Your best guy doesn't play.

I mean, he played 50 this past year. And then do you want to go through his games? I got it. I got it. We know. 2002, 57. 2022, 57. 2023, 61. 2024, 9.

2025, 50. Your best man doesn't play. No, 61 would have been a lot more if you wouldn't have gotten suspended for... I was just saying. He's never played 68 games in a season. He's been in the league six fucking years. Yeah. Like, at some point you are who you are, but when he does This is what I would argue when he does He is absolutely awesome and they win

This is not lamello. This is not Zion This is not other guys that get thrown in that same mix when he plays, they win at an extremely high rate and he performs at an insanely high level. All right. Would you house, are you worried about either of these numbers? Three points shooting the last three years for him, 30.7, 27.5, 30.9 free throw attempts by year, 8.1, 7.1, 6.4. So I have somebody getting less to the line who still can't shoot threes,

who any good defense knows that he's just going to go fly into the rim and do the thing where he jumps in the air and double clutches. Like, I just haven't seen him improve as an offensive player. Now I understand the success rate thing, but if you're telling me you're building around a star scorer who doesn't play all the time and a star big man who does rebound, I just don't know what your ceiling is. How? So you'd be the, you'd be the tiebreaker. Then how are they good?

Just tell me, how are they good? How were they good? You tell me you were there. No, they were 48-34 last year. So how? They don't have any good players. They don't have anybody that anybody likes. Except Desmond Bain who just got traded.

Evidently everybody loves Desmond Bain now. It is crazy, Bernadette. The reason that they were good is because they ran a great offense. They are a tremendous three-point shooting team with a bunch of guys that nobody's heard of. Good depth too. At every position. of. And they have good depth too. At every position. They don't really have good depth. But you bring in Scottie Pippen and Canard and Contrary.

They started two rookies. But last year they won 48 games. John Moran played 50 games. They got literally zero, zero, less than zero out of Marcus smart negative return on the smart deal. Right. That was a bad deal that they paid for. Okay. And they started the 39th pick and the ninth pick in a, by all accounts, horrendous draft and somehow won 48 games so somebody is good

is what I'm saying somebody's good you know who else was good Taylor Jenkins you want him to be the Knicks coach that was another one every time somebody leaves down Verno is kicking them hard in the butt on their way out that's not true I love these guys. I love Taylor Jenkins I love Desmond Bayne. So why'd you fire him? Because here's the deal with Taylor Jenkins Once I don't understand what all took place, but like they brought in they brought with they brought in a bunch of like After the last season they brought in a bunch of assistant coaches. They installed this new offense.

John Moran hated it. Desmond Bain hated it. Like it, interestingly enough, like it did not accentuate the talents of these guys. So, I mean, they could have won even more. And then you, the defense went to absolute hell and you never beat anybody. Good. absolute hell and you never beat anybody good. All of those 48 wins were generally against bad teams under 500 teams. Somebody's best guy was hurt that time they played them.

Yeah. And then your second part of your schedule, right? The second part of the schedule, it got hard and they were losing all the time. And they went from the two seed all the way down to the play-in, right? Where they're at the eighth seed seed and you guys know as well as I do, right. The players aren't going to get blamed. Right.

And now, I mean, look, obviously there is, at least they're making a move and they're saying it's not good enough roster wise, right. They, they admit it. But this is what, this is where I push back and we can let house be the tie breaker. I'm good with the dance desmond bain trade if you keep going now and You just completely blow it up, which is what you said you don't want to do I would what what are you doing now?

No, are you going where what planet am I on? We're blowing it up is a smart way to build your basketball team right now. We just got done talking about how the number one pick, Cooper flag is going to play in Dallas and Dylan Harper is going to play in San Antonio and ace Bailey or conkinipple or whoever is going to be playing in Philadelphia. Okay. Ask Utah how good it is to blow it up.

Ask new Orleans, how good it is to blow it up. Hey, do you think Utah is in a good spot right now? Bill, do you think Memphis is in a good spot right now? They were just two games away from the three seed. All right. They're not 20 games away. They're two. Has, what do you think the finals odds are for Memphis on Fandl for next year to win

the title? Too low. To win the title? Yes. 60 to one. 65 to one. 110 to one on Fandl. That's disrespectful.

It's like we're two moves away. I hope we trade for Jalen Brown. I really do. That would just send you into an absolute tizzy. That's disrespectful. It's like we're two moves away. I hope we trade for Jalen Brown. I really do. That would just send you into an absolute tizzy. What's the trade? Make us an offer.

What is it? We might. We might. You never know. Well, that's the thing. If you're telling me you're going to take all these assets plus Gigi Jackson and some of these dudes you have that some stealth assets. They will.

And you go all in on somebody. Yes. It might make all in on somebody. Yes. It might make more sense to me, but how's you, you still haven't really weighed in on whether you would want to build around John Moran after what we've seen the last three, four years. It's not just job though. It's John triple J. You, it has to be a package deal because you're not going to get 60 games out of job.

You're just not. And the thing, it better be a point of emphasis. We better see him shoot the three with some improved efficiency this upcoming season. Having said all of that, like if you sit down and look at the Grizzlies offensive numbers from last year, it's incredible. They had the second, they were number two in scoring offense. They were in the top three in offensive rebounds. They were in the top 10 or 11 in three points. It was a badass offense. And you look at that roster and say, well, where was that coming from? Who was doing all of that scoring? Ja only played 50 games. Well, it's all these dudes that, you know,

Virto can rattle off that are effective. And they had that offense that maybe there was this tension in the, in the coaching room between, you know, the scheme and what the players wanted to play. But the proof is in the pudding. Like they, their, their problem was, was exactly what Verno said. They didn't play any defense from February until the end of the season. No defense. What's the level?

You think Bain's defense overrated properly rated underrated? Where is it? I, it's not, it's not even rated. He's not a, he's not a defensive stalwart. I mean, he's another guy. He's much like, uh, like if you're watching these finals, I mean, you see what Jalen Williams did to is doing to knee Smith right now, a guy that we liked, right?

Yeah. The guy that looked good as a big time athlete with size and length against like J. Lebrunson, he's in a world of shit right now. Right? So I mean, they are just finding him constantly. And so he's not that level of defender. And so again, he's that's not, he is, he, I, Dez of Bain can be, I don't want to go too far on this, right?

But there's going to be a world where Steph Curry is no longer in the league. And Desmond Bane's right there at the very top of the best shooters in the league list. That's true. He is a great, like not good, great shooter. Great. And Orlando needed. Yes. Just Orlando. Great. And Orlando needed.

Yes. Just Orlando. Now they do need something. You know, if they, if they can generate the look for him, you know, uh, he is, I don't want him doing a ton of dribbling. Right. I want him to be able to play shooting guard and he ran a lot of Chris Lee's offense last year. And, you know, he, it's kind of like when you guys would watch Jalen

Brown, right? The less dribbling, the better, right? Like I don't want. And so I want him playing shooting guard, right? And I don't want him playing point guard. I don't want him handling the ball, um, on, at a high level. How's you guys talked about this on ringerley show about the Orlando title odds for next year. Which probably are not the time to do it. You want to wait for other people in the East to make moves and then do it.

And I don't think they're going to make the finals next year, but I also don't know what the F's going to happen in the East. You know, like I had Doc Rivers on last night. If I have Giannis on my team, I don't even care who else is on the team. I'm like, I have a puncher's chance. Who the fuck knows? Do you think Orlando, what's left for them to do? How about win a playoff series once? Well, that would help. Okay. Because I mean, before we talk about finals, can they do that? But I do think if they hadn't had all the injuries last year, I do think there's a world where they won 50 plus games and would have been an absolute bitch in the playoffs.

I don't know if that how many rounds they would have won, but they had the year from hell last year and they Suggs was a huge part of what they did. I agree. You know, and they had every oblique injury. Both had the same injuries. Like that was nuts how that played out. both had the same injuries. Like that was nuts how that played out. So, you know, I think that a healthy version of that team, Indiana's like, Jesus, that they're like going to be walking dead by the end of this finals with the

amount of playoff games they've played, playing a hundred plus game season at this pace. So you will say the reason they were extremely good, right? They, I heard Zach Lowe saying with Goldsberry that clip, uh, that, uh, they haven't had a top 20 offense in 13 years. I mean, that was the most shocking stat I've ever heard in my life. Like how top 20, there's only 30 teams in the league, right? So they haven't had, so they did it by defense, right?

They were a great, like sensational defensive team. And obviously a huge part of that is, and Suggs went out was Katavius Caldwell-Pope who you've already put in the grave. Cause I heard you guys acted like that was a total non-asset. No, listen, you have to face the facts of this. You got four picks and a swap for Bain. One of those picks was to take Caldwell-Pope's contract away from Orlando because it was a sunk cost for them.

Cause that's how bad he was. And you can ask any Orlando fan who had to watch them last year. That was like the lightning rod for the whole season was how bad he was. Now I don't know if he's going to be bad again. Can we agree as a horrendous team to be a corner three specialist on? Like it's a world of difference. This guy went from winning a title with LeBron

and winning a title with Jokic to a team that does create no open shots for anybody. Or you could say he was playing with LeBron and Jokic and that's why he looked as good as, maybe he did as a role player and now you take him away from that and it's not. And now he's playing with John Moran who generates more corner threes than anybody and more DMPs

what's it like to go to work and is that like the first question you ask after you say to everybody hey how are how are you? Is job playing? Is that the second question? Oh, it is annoying. There's no way around it. Is job playing? Oh, he's playing! Oh, good! There's gonna come a day where it all comes together and he's healthy. I know it. I know it. Well, when guys hit their late 20s, sometimes that happens. We gotta take one break and then we're gonna keep going.

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The world's best players, Messi, Holland, Kane, and more are all taking part. And you can watch every match for free on Dazon, starting on June 14th and running until July 13th. Sign up now at dazon.com slash FIFA. That's D-A-Z-N dot com slash FIFA. Hey, both of you love golf. We do. The US Open just came and went.

And the most exciting part of it for casual fans like us was when they showed the 2008 US Open in Tiger Woods and Rock-O-Mediate. I was fucking riveted. Okay. Um, just, I mean, the perfect storm, literally bad weather, um, a really hard course house, you talked about it on fairway Roland and we end up with just an absolute, uh, bizarre carnage, just the way it plays out.

This is the second most important golf tournament of the year and nobody is, you know, there's just no conversation about it after. I don't know. Is this just an aberration or a house? Is this a bad sign for golf? What is this? No, no, no, no, no. This is, you know, um, it is partly the effect of that golf course, that venue, where, you know, it's easy for the USGA, the governing body that's responsible for the US Open to set a goal of par as being the outcome.

Right. goal of par as being the outcome, right? And they can kind of enjoy. I don't mind that like minus three is going to be the best score in four days. Basically the way the weather, um, kind of interrupted things and the impact of the weather over the course of, of the four days, it did have, you know, they're playing out of the rough. They turned out to be wet rough. There was water on the golf course for the last round. It introduced some uncertainty where some guys were going to get lucky breaks and some guys were going to get unlucky breaks. And so that's how you

get a leaderboard where folks haven't heard of a lot of the players. And then, you know, the whole thing was saved by the last five holes because JJ Spong went out and won the golf tournament. He birdied the last two holes and he played the back nine and two under par. He went out and shot, no he shot three under par on the back nine. He went 40 on the front and 32 on the back to win the US Open. That's pretty damn good. And he's like your classic kind of grinder guy. So very relatable. All the stories that have come out afterwards. Awesome, dude. She's doing a great job on the interview circuit now, but we were deprived of the very best guys in the world coming down the stretch in the hunt. And I think that's the big complaint. Which we had on Thursday when we had all those names. And it was like, oh, here we go.

It's all a reflection. Verno had an exciting moment with his dad though about Tiger Woods. First of all, it's all a reflection of who won it. People just don't know J.J. Spallin. Verno had an exciting moment with his dad though. First of all, it's all a reflection of who won it. People just don't know JJ Spawn. This happened a few years ago. I worked that the US Open, the year it was at LACC, Wyndham Clark won and it was like, okay.

Everybody was hoping Rory was going to take it down at the end of that. It was right there. It didn't happen. And so because Wyndham Clark's not exactly a household name or anything at that time, it was kind of the same kind of deal with this JJ spawn thing. It's like a cool story, but it appeals to the niche golf audience and not some huge audience. That being said, my poor dad, my dad, this is on Father's Day. No less. My dad calls me on Sunday afternoon and I answered the phone and he rarely will call because he can't figure out how to use his cell phone and I have to go that and usually it's like can you come fix my mouse? Can you plug in my HDMI?

I got my spectrum password. Yeah, I can't change the inputs what's going on with this thing whatever and so and my parents look very close to me and so I said uh I said hey man happy Father's Day and he was like oh yeah happy happy Father's Day to you too I swear to God I think he had no idea it was Father's Day to you too. I swear to God. I think he had no idea. It was Father's Day. Okay, and he's like, hey, I just I said a question. He's like So I was watching the US open and like tiger was about to go to a playoff it looked like and then Like now it's like this guy burned to whatever he's like, is it the same? And I was like, dad, no, I was like, I was like, dad, what you're watching right

now, he's like, this is like live right now. And I was like, yes. And I was like, dad, did it never dawn on you at all that you were watching a 30 year old Tiger wood? Like how could you possibly thought you were watching something live? He was so into Tiger Woods versus what? Rock-O-Media? Yeah.

Yeah. It was an amazing tournament. Number one, it was at Torrey Pines in San Diego. Number two, Tiger's like 30 and wearing a sweater vest and Nike stuff. And it's clearly young Tiger Woods. And no, I think my dad was disappointed that he was watching Sam Burns at the end of the US Open. I think he wishes-

You should have told him it was Tiger Woods and Tiger Woods won the US Open. He probably would have found out five days later. Dude, I told this story on my local show, and people were sending me all this shit that I should have my dad go back and watch. He's gonna love it! He's gonna wait till he sees the 86 World Series! Like all this shit, you know? You should show Gantz where John Marant plays 35 minutes.

Oh! Come on! Just... We're all supposed to enjoy this horse season. How do you think they, they intentionally don't like put a glaring 2008 US open when they show those because of people like this older audience that might actually think Tiger Woods is contending. It's got to be intentional, right?

They definitely knew they had the forecast. They knew there might be bad weather. They teed up the 2008 US Open. I mean, there was some criticism because- Why would they show Oakmont, like an older version of Oakmont or something? Why wouldn't they do that? They couldn't show 2016 because they fucked up the ruling with Dustin Johnson and penalized him in stroke.

And then the broadcast, the guys on the broadcast were trying to criticize the USGA. So they weren't going to put that one on, but they could have put 2007 on because that was Phil and Tiger both chasing after Angel Cabrera. Now Angel Cabrera, maybe not the most sympathetic character. But 2008 Tiger, I mean, that thing shows you what a US Open is supposed to look like and feel like. I mean, the crowd is sitting on top of the green. That's part of the problem with Oakmont.

People were not close enough. It wasn't your giant roars. That Tiger thing, people were losing their fucking minds over the grill with that thing. But also they did clear it out. They cleared it out for the lightning and the rain and whatever. So I mean, over the four days we didn't have any, any, I mean, that makes me think though, watching tiger and just so being so nostalgic for those 12 years when from 97 to Oh, wait, basically, and you know, like in

basketball, we have, we have to have the stupid face of the league conversation all the time now. And it's just like, these people are comets that pass through, right? In the last 30 years in the NBA, I thought magic's point about if you could sell out the other team's stadium, that's usually a good sign of whether you're at the right level. Tiger could sell out any golf course. MJ could sell out any stadium.

Kobe and Shaq together could sell out any stadium. Kobe and Shaq together could sell out any stadium. Kobe by himself in the late 2000s. LeBron on Miami and Cleveland the second time he was there. And then Curry when he showed up at 14. And guess what? We haven't had anybody since and it's okay. I would tell you right now and I'm actually a relatively good person to probably talk about this as somebody who goes to every single home game in a small market. Yeah. The Curry and LeBron are the only two. It's true. If you go to those games you will see thousands of Curry jerseys and thousands of LeBron jerseys in any city in the country. But it's not an argument. The only way it changes is somebody would have to win like three, four

straight titles in a row. And even then, I don't know if it's gonna happen, but when Benyama is the next guy who I think could potentially sell out stadiums, if he just is like, you know, he's averaging 25, 15, eight blocks a game, like it's stuff we've never seen, but we're the curry thing was such a phenomenon. Like, I don't know, but the tiger thing made me think of that because as much as the Shambles been fun, right? Shaffer is, is at the highest level of just being competitive in every tournament is anyone in a while Brooks.

Keppka was fun. People love Rory, but the Tiger thing was just different. And it's just the reality of the situation. I mean, House, we were there for the Masters. People loved Rory. That Tiger, the Tiger thing went to a whole other level. And you could feel it in the 08 Open. I thought it was really interesting to rewatch.

That's every individual sport have to have dominant characters that have unbelievable charisma. Right. Or else because we get, because otherwise like Scottie Schaeffler, like we know, uh, you know, whether it was, uh, you know, even Joker now in tennis or it was Pete Sampras in tennis, right? And in the 2000s, Tim Duncan, right? Like you, but the individual or like in boxing where it was Pete Sampras in tennis, right? Or Tim Duncan in the 2000s. Yeah, or it was Tim Duncan, right? Like you, but the individual, or like in boxing,

where it was Tyson, whatever, the same kind of thing as a Comet, where it's like these individual sports are even more in need of that guy. Not only do you have to be awesome, you also have to have like this charisma about you. And that's what gets everybody like. All involved.

You almost know when you see it. Even Usain Bolt, right? If Usain Bolt wasn't doing the bye bye and waving everything, but all of a sudden people started caring about sprinting. Like, well, that's the thing. I was at the 2012 London Olympics. Yeah. And there was a lot of, I mean, Phelps was still there.

We had the Olympic team had all those dudes on it. And Usain Bolt was the ticket to get out of anything. It was like, are you going to be there for the hundred? That was it. Everybody wanted to be in there to watch that dude run. I house, I think it's, and you and I have known each other for ever. Um, it's a, it's a know it when you see it standpoint, it's weird. Like there's, there's people like Aaron judge that aren't quite there, but have a

lot of, he's getting closer. It feels like he's creeping closer to it. But, um, I'll tell you this two years ago, no question. I'll say this two years ago, I took my family. My daughter was like studying the Statue of Liberty and stuff. So if you want to go up to New York, we went to New York and then we went over to the Yankees game. I swear to even then, and this is before that season, I'd say 75% of that crowd

had 99 judge or 99 judge shirt jersey's on. I never seen a stadium where everybody, like you'd see a random, like old school Jeter. You'd see a random, but like the whole crowd, everywhere you went. And I got it. It's a cool name and number, right? But that was, that one really took me aback where I was like, cause I went with Jacoby earlier this year to the Knicks games and they don't wear, they don't wear gear. Nick, like there's not gear in the crowd.

There's retro stuff. It's all over the place. But there's not like you would expect Brunson stuff to be everywhere and it's just not. And most of the saddest is the Wizards games. What's the Jersey scene at the Wizards games house? Are you locked in? Who's the best player on the other team? That's the, that's I mean, it was packed for LeBron.

It was awesome when the Lakers came. I mean the game was over within the first half, but. What number do you have in the draft next week? The house? Six. Oh, let's talk, let's talk quick draft before we go. The devil's number. House has six.

Give us your, cause we have con canipal coming later in the podcast. Give us your, uh, preference at six. Who you're praying drops to six. Oh, no, no, I'm sorry. I didn't realize. I was just gonna say I didn't, I'm having to like crash course this draft because Memphis traded their pig. Right.

You didn't think you had to worry about it. Oh yeah. You weren't expecting. No, to get off of Marcus Smart. So we didn't have a pick until two days ago. I'm like, oh shit, I gotta go. I gotta go watch everybody. Go ahead, House.

Who you open for? I want the center from Duke. Come on, Malawatch or Malawack. I don't know. How do you say it? The big giant seven two guy who can be a rim protector. He's 18 years old, which puts him exactly right on the same timeline.

I know that we're still don't like to hear about timelines, but he's in that same age range. You put him with, with SAR, Kula Bali, you know, the two other guys, Bob Carrington, George, this young Washington team, um, all these, these young guys. And right now, the thing that, that is missing more than anything else is a defensive stalwart. And what we saw in terms of his, uh, ability to, to, um, protect the rim and the rebounding, I think he would be,

and he fits in with Sarr and Turek Cause Sarr's almost like a stretch four slash five Sarr prefers to be on He prefers to be out of the perimeter and he can defend on the perimeter You guys are going to love this so I was going through all the names from the first round and I was like alright now I got a crash course on all of this and I got down to one of the names randomly

and it like jogged my memory for some reason so about three weeks ago I'm in Target and I'm by, I always go to Target when my kids go and I buy basketball cards, right? I go and buy the box of basketball cards. So this guy's standing there, guy comes up to me, he's like, hey, and he recognizes me.

And he's like, starts talking about the Grizzlies. And he's like, what, what cars are you buying? And I said, well, I was just going to buy those or whatever. And he's like, get those Bowman chromes. He's like, they've got the Cooper flag in it. If you get the autograph, they're selling for like a thousand dollars. I was like, well, then I guess I'm buying those. Right.

So I go to buy those. I'm like, I'm going to try to get the Cooper flag. He's like. And again, I don't know this person. And the guy goes to me, he goes, um, yeah, he's like, you know, everybody's chasing the Cooper flag and it's trying to get the autographs and everything. He's like, I'm going to tell you something. The best player out of this entire draft is going to be Cedric Coward. And I was like, what?

Okay. I was like, what? I didn't even know who the hell he's talking about. And he's like, I'm telling you, just remember that a guy in Target told you this and I was like, okay, so now I was going through it the other night and I was like, holy shit, that's the guy. Some random guy in Target told me that that's going to be the superstar. That's the guy.

I mean, think about how many drafts were somebody in the 12 to 20 range suddenly became the best guy in the trap. You know, I was looking at the, the, uh, the Fandel odds for this because obviously Harper's going to flagstone one. And when I was in, uh, Indiana last week, edge comb, the bailer, the electric bailer guard, he was minus one 25 and now he's minus 165 because of that ESPN story today about Ace Bailey not really working out with anybody. Yeah.

What is the deal there? What is going on? Is this, are we getting a Tarii Eason ding all over again? Are we getting- For Bailey, I feel like he's trying to maneuver his way to a team. like he's trying to maneuver his way to a team. So I had this happen one time, years and years ago, uh, Memphis had the, I want to say it was the fourth pick in the draft. I think it was the Conley draft.

I can't remember now, but oh, no, no, it was before that. But anyways, the top two pick or the top pick that year was Houston. So it was the Yao Ming draft. Okay. Okay. So that the top pick was Houston and there were guys that like, uh, Amari Sadamare only worked out for Houston and Phoenix. And so then when everybody was picked, I think that was the year, uh, Memphis

took Drew Gooden fourth. Okay. So of course this becomes a huge topic here. What the F we're supposed to have the whatever, like the genius, Jerry West, he's running the team. How the hell? And Jerry West came out and said, look, this guy worked out for Houston. And this guy worked out.

He went to 50 different high schools. We never even could find him. You know what I mean? And it was like, he was excusing not taking a Mari Stoudemire, but it's funny. As you say, there have been guys that have done that in the past. I went to a, the year they took Kashim to beat, I went to all of the workouts. And I thought James Harden was awful. And it turns out he was just dog in the workout.

He just dog day. That's back in those days. Right. This was very common. Or you would say about Lamela ball during COVID dog in the warriors interview because he wanted to go to Charlotte was always the story. Well, and that's kind of been the thing with the Shadoor, right? Where people said they was trying to direct himself somewhere, but it backfired.

That's why I wonder. So Brooklyn has the eighth pick. And I wonder if Ace Bailey is dreaming about being on Brooklyn with the eighth pick, cause he's not working out for anybody. Interesting. But with the Fandel odds, Knipple is the favorite to go fourth at plus 230. Trey Johnson is the favorite to go fifth to Utah plus 190. And then, uh, for houses wizards with the six pick.

Ace Bailey, the favorite of plus three 20. Oh, wow. And your Duke center is plus four 70. I will just say this as somebody who's known house since 1988, the wizards drafting and unhappy. Ace Bailey would give me life. Not it's a blue day all summer would be him sitting out summer league and not what and house just getting madder and madder about it.

As he gets dehydrated on another golf course. Like that's where I want my summer to go. Do you know we cut Johnny Davis here? House has to go back to the hospital now. God damn it. Johnny. Sorry. That was Tommy Shepard's parting fucking gift. My issue with Ace Bailey is what if he is an 18 year old Jordan pool?

I mean, I just can't take it. I can't, you know, you're going to have to get another eight. Uh, I will say I did some deep dive draft stuff. Yeah. There's some really interesting defensive stuff with him. Like in a good way. He's like a chase down block guy. A whole, if you watch those deep dive YouTube clips where they break down all the parts,

they have a whole like chase down block section and in general like he's, I was kind of shocked how what kind of a rim protector he was. And then his offensive game is very, I gotta say very similar to Joe House. Joe House and his prime. A lot of like just two dribble, catch and shoot, a lot of foul, a lot of foul line, 18 footer stuff. Get to the nail spin. Get it up. Yeah.

He rebounds a little. He doesn't pass. He's a black hole. I like to pass. No, no, I'm saying for him, he's a black hole. That was the one difference because you were a good passer. But yeah, I wonder if he's trying to get to Brooklyn. Did you say you have Knipple on your podcast?

He's coming up later. Yeah. He was great. Hey now, are you all in? Are you all in? I mean, I didn't expect it. The, this was reminded me of, uh, I w I liked them in at Duke, but there's been a couple of times where I've liked somebody and then it's like liking an indie band that then becomes famous.

Like I thought he would be like in the 13 to 17 range because these guys always get discounted. And then as it gets closer to the draft, now he's like in the top five. It's, but I, it's very similar to Westbrook. Remember we loved Westbrook at UCLA that year. It was like, whoa, what a glue guy this guy is. He's fucking tries. And then all of a sudden he was the fourth pick. So I think with Kniepel, like he just brings all the stuff to the table that every team

wants. Shooting, knows where to go, defense. They told, I had a GM tell me that the year, that the Westbrook year, that they were at one of those like work, maybe it was in Chicago or somewhere like that but that Rose and Westbrook were like like one and two in the line and that everything Rose was doing Westbrook was doing and all the GMs were just like oh my god like this guy's he's is his let it gets the other guy like what what is going on here and so it just but it does like this one like this is a this is a heater this guy can to pull is on where it's like I

looked at those what Sam Bacini I looked at his he's got like the magnum opus draft guy that he put out today like 60,000. It really is and I think he's got kiddaple like three or something I get to get the very top like there's a bunch of these. Rosilla loves him too. Rosilla's usually a tough grader. Everybody likes him. He does all the right stuff. You need certainty in those first five picks. You can't have, you know, it can't be a gamble because if you gamble and lose You're so fucked. That's the problem with you know, I'm not believing I've lived through it. Like if you took this guy six, I wouldn't, I don't know, but fears the point guard who's reclassified.

So he's a year young and he's just like, you know, you almost have to think you're getting, I don't know what you're getting, but the ceiling of it, I don't even know. I feel like Utah is going to take him. He feels that could be another Utah possibility. Um, but just like crazy, crazy point guard skills, but he's like a baby. He's so you're buying in that you're basically, you're on like a three year plan with him. Yeah.

It feels like he's a little lower in these recent mocks. He's in the six to nine range. I see him at seven. He's leading the odds board at seven right now Yeah, I bet he goes I bet he goes high as well And then that Derek Queen who everybody has in the 12 to 14 range somebody will take him sooner than that It's just like somebody won't be able to resist it's either good and and he's either gonna be a guy that like

He's like awesome like boogie cousins he's going to be a joke. Or you're going to be like, Oh my God, yes. I don't want to, I'm he's from the DMVs from university of Maryland. I grew up rooting. He's from Baltimore. I grew up rooting for Maryland. Um, so this, this, the crab five, the run that they just went on in the NCAA tournament was awesome and the shot that he knocked down for them to get to, to,

you know, uh, move along. Um, I'm worried about his defense. I'm worried about his ability to play professional NBA level defense. But that's the thing, whatever team he goes to, he's like, team dependent for me. If he goes to the wrong team, I would be really worried about him. Yes, I agree. Do you have a, do you have a lower guy, do you have a lower guy you've fallen in love with, Bill? Um, I have a late second round guy that I like.

Oh, late second. I always look at that. It's funny. I always look at the counting stats because sometimes I think we discount that somebody's just putting up stats. Right? So the guy who led the league in it, who led college in assist last year was Nemhard, his brother.

He's at Gonzaga's 5-11. He's tough. It's tough to make it at 5-11. So he's 5-11, had 10 assists a game. And then if you deep, first of all, the, the YouTube stuff with him is really good. But if you go and like, Talk about like the quotes from teammates and coaches, like Mark views, like he's just like, effusively praising him. I just feel like he's one of those guys where like three years from now, he's

going to be on somebody's team and the, in like the Eastern conference finals. He'd be like, wow, that is the 57th pick. How did, so he's like the 57th pick. Had it. So he's like my stealth sleeper. I haven't done enough. I'm sad. So I'm going to do all weekend, much to my wife's chagrin is study. The rest of these dudes,

we're not telling you this. Now you look at these guys that are like, even as we're watching the NBA finals. And it's like, I mean, this Oklahoma city team who's now, you know, game away from being able to win the title. They're crazy. Their fourth leading scorer, their fourth leading scorer on the whole team was the 55th pick in the draft in Aaron wickets. He was their fourth leading score this year. And it's like, damn man.

Like, you know, how many years ago could we have talked about this and like, you didn't get any, like you never got, like there was like the random Manu that was the draft and stash and there was like, but like second round picks and undrafted are like hitting and being awesome for teams that are winning. Like the conference is now like even the Nemhard brother, right? Not, it's not a high pick TJ McConnell, like Aaron Wiggins, Alex Caruso. Like there's a bunch of second round and undrafted guys that are having like major rotation impact.

It's crazy. And this, this tells you how I've been doing gambling wise, although I did finally hit a nice one with Oklahoma city last night, I would have bet, and this tells you how I've been doing gambling wise, although I did finally hit a nice one with Oklahoma City last night. I would have bet $500 that Bill Simmons said his deep, his second round guy was Walter Clayton Jr. The Florida kid. No, because he's going to be end of the first round. Oh, he's pushed himself all the way up to the potential first round. Listen, if the Celtics took him at 28, I'd be delighted.

I'd have to look down at that. I understand. No, I would have thought it would be like, uh, well, no, I can't even. Well, you got, did you, who got the 23rd pick? Who did Indiana trade that 23rd pick to? Is that Memphis or New Orleans? No, no, New Orleans. Yeah.

It's all right. Right around the range where he, I could see him going a couple spots too high. I like that dude though. You liked him too, right? House. I loved him. Are you kidding me? The stones on that kid, his comfort. This draft's good.

Like all kidding aside. Yeah, yeah. All kidding aside, like the 16th pick in this draft might actually be somebody good. So at least you'll be down the road to maybe replacing the best under 30 shooter in the league. I'll tell you this. I'm looking down like right where you were talking about, like that Nemhardt or Ryan Nemhardt.

He's like, I think on this ESPN mock, I just pulled up, he's like 58. But I mean, like you're at the end of that draft. It's like senior, senior, senior, senior, senior, senior. And I, yeah, you, super senior, super senior I, super senior, super senior, senior, senior, super senior, senior. Like because these guys all got to go to school extra and they got NIL and they stuck around. And they're switching teams.

I think this could be more like immediate impact from the second round that maybe you've ever seen before. I had somebody tell me last week that one of the reasons, cause I'd never understand why everybody's trying to get all these second round picks and hoarding them and, and one of the reasons they said was because college is so fucked up now and these guys are never on the same team for more than one or two years, or they had extra eligibility and you know, they just, it's just easier to get lucky

with somebody who is in the wrong situation or they transferred to a new school and it didn't work out and they're stock dropped. Well, and then you, it's held against you because these guys are actually 24 years old, like they're not what you're normal, but it also makes them much more able to be able to contribute immediately. Right. In the NBA.

They get used to a new chaotic situation because they've transferred through times. Well, this happened twice with the Grizzlies. Desmond Bain, as we wrap this back up, Desmond Bain, it was ageist. Like people that was held against him that he was older and Brandon Clark as well. Another guy who was great at Gonzaga, but had gone to a small school prior to that. And it's like, geez, like the answer to a lot of this is many times the guy that you,

they say they draft the 19 year old and they say, yeah, but what is he going to look like when he's 23? And then the answer is typically not as good as Desmond Bane ever. Right. Like he's probably not going to be that good. That was the Celtics logic with Shireman when they took him. Oh yeah, Baylor Shireman. He was like 24. He's been in a couple of colleges, bounced around.

House, thanks for joining us on late notice and try not to pass on our golf course. Do you have any early NFL futures you want to throw at us before we go? Anything you were excited about? Don't even talk to me. Don't. No, no. Why? I like the over for the Cowboys. I already bet they're over for the Cowboys. I like the Cowboys. I like the Cowboys this year. I think they're decent. Are we going to act like me and you did not collectively lose a fortune together? That was different. We're not doing that last year. We did a fortune together. That was different. I have been, we're not doing that last year. We did a bunch of AFC South teams.

That might've been a mistake. We had, we had, Houston was good. I like Houston to win that. We bet on Aaron Rodgers and the Jets. That was a mistake. That turned out to be a mistake. It was a mistake. I like, listen, I was there too.

That was my biggest regret from all the futures last year, believing in uh, Rodgers and the Jets. And guess what? I'm not falling in for it this year on the Steelers. You're not roping me in. No thank you. Yeah, the Steelers, you can just stay away. Houston to win the AFC South is my favorite,

and I love the Rams this year. I have all the Rams futures. So I did that when I was in Indiana last week. I did, I jumped on Houston and win the South was still, I think plus 110. It was near even money. So anything plus or even money, I'm like, you let me put as much. And the Chiefs were still near even money.

It's like, that's just like, you know, buying a, just buying a money bond. Am I crazy or what? It's like, what if the Chiefs not going to win the division? Am I crazy? Wasn't there some story about how CJ Stroud like hasn't been able to throw a football in months or something? Like that'll be fine. He'll be.

Yeah. They were, they were doing those stories. Soldier injuries are always fine. No, it's fine. It's just, I didn't see that story. They were trying to get out of that bed. Isn't that a thing? Isn't CJ Stroud shoulder?

Isn't that a thing? Well, the South, like the Hunter trade was, seems like it might end up working out bizarre. The cold, stany times is already the QB and then Tennessee, like how is Houston? If they don't win the division, that's embarrassing. Anyway. All right, guys. Good times. Burno, thanks for popping on. Say hi to everyone in Memphis.

Uh, don't I like Memphis. Thank you. As a city. We needed that. We need some of the stuff that was out there this week. That wasn't nice. We needed it What do you mean that? This week, what was the stuff about superstars don't feel safe in Memphis Yeah, what was that though? Where did that come from? It was it dude

many times and I'm glad you guys don't feel this way, but many times national media members, especially from big markets, feel like small markets are always in service of the big markets. And so they're never delightful in their conversations about any of the small market teams that being set aside. What Stephen A. Smith did was so damaging and irresponsible. Like we fight uphill in Memphis against the perception of, right. And all I will say is you guys know, I have been here for 25 years. There has never been a player.

And I know of that has ever asked for a trade outside of Palgasol when the team was going to go into tank mode, right? And they did right by him and they sent him to Los Angeles, right? There has never been a player as far as I know that has not resigned once they have played in Memphis. If everything was even, there's nobody that's walked off and has gone somewhere else, right? So when you have, it's not like

it's been a franchise for five years. When you've been a franchise for 25 years and you have all kinds of players that still, Tony Allen lives here, Zach Randolph lives here, Mike Miller lives here, Teyshaun Prince lives here, there's a lot of people that have still made Memphis their home. There's been all manner of NBA players come through Memphis over the years.

Never once have I heard of them being the victim of some kind of violence. And to me, what made me so angry about that whole thing was, yes, Memphis has problems. And Memphis has, the crime statistics are the crime statistics. Right. But these guys are not like the idea that you are saying, Oh, well, Memphis players don't want to go to Memphis because because it's dangerous. Right. That's what he said.

Right. what he said, right? Have you ever heard that said about any other city, any other sports market, any other team ever? Has that ever been a thing? Did anybody say, Hey, you know what? Caleb Williams might not want to go to the bears. You know, they got a lot of crime in Chicago or Kate Cunningham. I don't know if he wants to play in Detroit. You know what? Caleb Williams might not want to go to the Bears. You know, they got a lot of crime in Chicago or Kate Cunningham. I don't know if he wants to play in Detroit. You know, they got a lot of crime. Like to bring that up. Like nothing happened, right? Nothing happened. And so the conversation was about, should they just trade John Moran?

And then it turned into, look, Jimmy Butler didn't want to go to Memphis because Jimmy Butler and others have told me that Memphis is dangerous. Well, like there's 25 years of sample size of NBA players loving playing in Memphis, right? They've never left and it's not just been hardened guys like the Tony Allen's and the Z-Bow's. Mike Conley was here for an awful long time at his names in the rafters.

And Marc Gasol was raised in Spain and after he went to high school in Memphis and then played his entire career until he went to Toronto and LA at the very end. Right? Like, so if it, if players don't want to be there, then why do they always resign? Why do they never want to be traded? Why do they end up loving it and swearing by it? You know, any city is and look, you guys know as an even when I first took the job with you, Bill, I mean, if I had said, hey, yeah, I'll move to California, right?

Like I've always wanted to be here. I was told years ago in order to Have anybody care about what you were doing? You got to go to a bigger market Right, and I think there's a lot of people in the media that still feel that way and they still feel that way about sport And so they will do anything To make sure like they just want jaren jackson somebody on team that's on TV, John Moran, somewhere else, whatever. But to go out of your way to say players don't want to go there because it's dangerous to me is so far over the line because unless you want to tell me how has that never been

said about anywhere? Washington, DC has got a crime. Chicago Washington DC's got a, got crime. Chicago's got crime. Detroit's got crime. LA's got crime. Like all these places have crime. I hate to tell you this. Not only are these players insulated from them.

If you talk to players, they are so much more beloved in small markets than they are in big markets Because it matters more to us And they are a lot more involved in the community and they're reaching out in touch of people and everybody It's like all for one one for all and people are out in the grocery store. They treat these guys like kings They treat them like kings not like targets what yeah, you know this I love that I've been down to Memphis twice in five years Not like Target. What? Yeah. Verno, you know this. I love Memphis. I've been down to Memphis twice in five years.

I came down. He didn't have to sell a house at Memphis. Yeah, 2019 then again to come on the show with you guys. That live show we did. That's right. And I mean, you were right. I got to spend probably like five, six days there for the Eastern, the Western finals that time.

Yeah. I loved it. I power walked everywhere. The food, I probably put I had to power walk because of the food. But now it's great. It's super damaging for somebody to go on national TV and say players don't want to go there because. Alright. You made a good case. You know what I mean? Great case. I appreciate it here in the case. That was heartfelt. That was super annoying because look, every city's got its problems.

We've got to deal with the problems. Right. But come on, dude, like the, being a professional athlete at Memphis is a great kick, that's a great gig and not to mention you could, I mean, you could live in a Bill Simmons sized house for nothing. So I took a stray at the end there. No, no, I'm just saying. I know it's a huge house, right?

Like, I mean, we don't have oceans. We don't have oceans. We got a river. Great food though. Great house. Great to see you. Take it easy this weekend, please. Burno, a pleasure as always.

Good to see you. Say hi to everyone in Memphis for us. All right, fellas. See you. No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC optimum points on your first five orders.

Shop now at nofrills.ca. All right, my friend Kevin Hentges here. We're taping this two days after the big Raphael Devers trade that the Boston Red Sox um, a trade that we had been talking a bunch about on our little Red Sox text thread that we're on. Um, Red Sox nation divided because nobody trusts the owners or the franchise or whatever they've been doing the last five, six years. We don't trust any of it.

And yet I think you and I both feel like the trade kind of made sense. So they created all this money, but now I don't trust them to do the right things with it and I don't know how to feel. I'm, you know, when Mike Schur sent the text, did we just trade Devers? I was instantly delighted and I knew nothing of the particulars. I was so happy to have a fucking guy who refuses to do the easiest thing in baseball to help his team. I mean, you know, there are so many examples, obviously last year when it's like, hey, we're

going to get true holiday and Christoph's porzingis now, you know, there aren't going to be as many shots to go around. And everyone's like, that's fine. That's no problem. We want to win a chip. And, you know, sports historically, like, you know, Joe Thune going out to left tackle for the Chiefs, he had to know he was going to get his ass handed to him.

He's a left guard, you know, but it's like, you just do whatever the team needs for the guys in the clubhouse. So we had a player making 10, 20, 30 times as much as the other guys in the clubhouse who's like, I don't want to move a millimeter outside my comfort zone. So he's taking it out on his teammates. Obviously, we need you to play first base.

We have Noah Sogaard playing first base. You have to play first base. And he was like, I hate this team so much. I'm willing to punish my teammates, which by the way, is why, if you've read the subtext of all of his teammates, fuck off. Fuck off has been the subtext of everybody who's commented. Not a lot of people coming out being like, you know, Raffy was a pro. I'm going to really miss him. Yeah.

Even Poppy, obviously saying like you, you hit the certain things you have to do for the team. So I immediately was like good riddance to that guy. I mean, even Poppy, obviously, saying like, you have certain things you have to do for the team. So I immediately was like good riddance to that guy. And then when I heard, I mean, we were over a barrel, we're in fourth place, we have too many players for not enough positions. The fact that I was like, they took on the whole contract and Kyle Harrison might be a number three starter in the majors. Like, I just couldn't believe that the return we got given the bind we were in.

You know, now I know your feeling is it was a little self-inflicted, but. Well, hold on a little self-inflicted. So go backwards. This, so this goes to the big Red Sox and confidence, the franchise piece of this, where since they won the title in 2018, they've been all over the map, starting with the Mookie Betts thing, which was basically our version of the Luca Donce's trade in Dallas, where just only it was a slow motion car crash version of it where we were watching it for 18 months going, they're not really going to

let him go. Right. And then all of a sudden they trade them for 5 cents on the dollar. months going, they're not really going to let him go. Right. And then all of a sudden they trade him for five cents of the dollar. Um, Devers was the panic extension coming off them blowing the Xander Bogart thing a year before not extending them and then let him go to San Diego for a ton of money, which actually turned out to be pretty good for them.

And the Red Sox fans are so mad. They said, uh, and they just gave De result this money to be their third baseman. And then two years later, they signed Alex Bregman to play third base. And endeavors was like, I, you, I have a tenure. And so it starts there and it just gets worse and worse. I blame everybody. There are no good guys in this. I definitely think one of the, one of the columnists hit on it. Communication was not strong, obviously.

I don't know if you watched the studio with Seth Rogen, right? But it's like that episode where somebody has to give the bad note to the star. Somebody has to tell the star or the director. Is it Ron Howard? So I have to give Ron Howard the note that you're making a mistake. And I feel like this was the baseball version of that, which is like, hey, somebody has to tell Raffy, he's a terrible third baseman.

Has anyone had that conversation with Raffy yet? Who's told Raffy that he sucks at third? And so, I mean, obviously this crazy little zoom insight that we've all gotten that nobody thinks Breslau can communicate. So it's like the GM of the Red Sox, who people think is a non communicator. The guy literally an Ivy league molecular physicist, not a great communicator. What a shocker.

He's amazingly clicked with John Henry. They just went to a restaurant and just stared at each other awkwardly for two hours. This is the perfect storm, right? You know, English is the second language, Dominican third basement, molecular physicists. Hey, you guys had a good talk about this, right? Well, I don't know if you really knew what I was saying. Like, it's so insane. So, so Raffy is told like, yeah, we just got a Google off third basement,

which is obviously going to help the team. Um, I don't know why the first base conversation wasn't already happening, I guess, because they still believed Casas was the answer there, although, you know, prior to Casas, they wouldn't, they, we were talking about all winter. They wouldn't trade Casas for a pitcher because they love Casas. But, but gosh, watching the, you know, before he got hurt, he, he certainly did not look like the answer at first base. But you know, even if you're going to play Casas against righties, Raffy should just have a first baseman's glove in spring training.

That just like once Bregman's there. But I would say this again, so much that's been written and a ton has been written Buster only Tyler Keppner in the New York times, 10,000 texts in our text chain, um, all, all invoking Mookie bets and well, Tyler Keppner is the only one who invoked Babe Ruth. So it's like, okay, Babe Ruth, Mookie Betts, Raphael Devers, which one doesn't fit in this picture? Like, he's not, Raphael Devers, not Mookie Betts or Babe Ruth. He's a very good hitter. He's fat and slow and not a good base runner.

And he hits the Yankees well. But even his slugging percentages are not that nuts. Like it's just, you and I both agree that that contract was going to get really bad, really fast. The panic contract. So now that's somebody else's problem. And I just, you know, I mean, I'm going to love all the fly balls to left in San Francisco that are caught on the track. Those are not doubles anymore, Raffy. And and, and of course, you're, you're bitter.

This is the, I haven't seen such a bitter side from you in a while. I'm such a teen guy that it's like, I mean, and again, Kyle Schwab or the ultimate example, like I will embarrass myself at first base. I don't, I don't know how to do it. I don't know how to catch a chest high throw. I don't know how to flip underhand to the pitcher. And he's like, but if that's what you need, I will go humiliate myself in front of a sold out stadium

to help the team versus Raffy Devers. He's like, I'm butt hurt. I'm not gonna help the team at all. Well, now then he does. I mean, one of the reasons we're doing this now is he did the Giants press conference and he's like, I'll play wherever. You made the key point.

He, he did, there were all these red flags from the moment they started at Bregman. They clearly didn't talk to Devers and be like, Hey, we're thinking about doing this. If we did this, you'd have to be the DH, but we think this is an amazing opportunity for us. One of the reasons you're talking to Bregman was because they kind of were out of the loop on free agency for the whole winter, right? And then belatedly all of a sudden Bregman became a possibility. Um, that you go to Devers, if you're thinking of doing this, if he's your

franchise guy, which is the amount of money they gave to him, you would think that's your guy, you go to him and you say, Hey, we're thinking about doing this. You'd have to be the DH, but we really think the team would be awesome. It would help you. Your stats are going to be the best. That's, but they obviously didn't do any of it. And then they just signed this guy and knocked Devers out of there. And to be fair to him, I do think he felt like I am your franchise third baseman, even though I'm an awful defender.

And even though I'm by the time I'm 33, I will be just be like wearing concrete cleats. Basically. Um, I do think he felt like I'm the guy I'm, I'm the Brooks Robinson in Baltimore of this Red Sox team. That is a great question. You know, it's like, does Raffy know he's a terrible third baseman? I doubt it. We knew because it was like two thirds of your text, I think over over there

about what a butcher he is at third base. Like, does Jalen Brunson think he's a good defender? Does he not know, why are they going at me on every possession? Like, because you're terrible. Does Carl Anthony Towns know that he commits dumb fouls? Like, Devers might not know. He might not have any idea.

I don't think Devers spends a lot of time on baseball reference like we do going deep. Well, the big thing with the Debra's trade, cause you and I saw it the same way. And then some of our other friends were like, you know, this guy's potentially one of the best 10 to 12 hitters in either league. All the Yankee fans we know are rejoicing. It was like, thank God you got rid of Debra's.

He killed us, which is true. You never want to make a trade where the Yankee fans are going nuts. But I think both of us saw it the same way. When you're giving those giant contracts to people in baseball and they're not positioned guys and they get older and they start, you start heading down. Jean Carlo Stanton mountain pretty fast. We were like, wait, how many years are left? And there's just no way to unload it.

It was kind of a miracle that San Francisco was like, we'll take, we'll take all of it. And here's our best prospect from a year ago. And here's our number one draft pick from last year. And it's like, I, the trade itself, I can't argue with. Yeah. We, we beyond maxed out in terms of our return. Um, you know, especially again, given the bind that everybody knew we were in this bind,

we weren't negotiating from a position of strength. And like you talk about these huge contracts, the Blue Jays are three months into this Guerrero contract and it's a disaster, he has eight home runs. So you know it's gonna get worse as it goes on. The idea is that Vladimir Guerrero, who had 48 home runs as a 22 year old, is gonna be better as a 26 year old.

So everyone is rushing to shit on the Red Sox and say this is the latest installment in this continuing trend. And then they'll like invoke the Xander Bogart's thing. And it's like, wait a minute, that was amazing. That was incredible that the Padres are on the hook for another quarter of a billion dollars for a guy with a six 40 OPS. And I think this Raffy contract is going to be a lot more like the Xander deal.

Um, I, but here's the problem and this is, and we were chronicling all this in real time. None of the decisions made sense when you match them against all the other decisions, right? The crime with Bogarts was they could have signed him to an extension a year earlier for way less money than they didn't. They did the sale extension that you and I almost had a conniption about. And I was mad at the Red Sox, not even following them full time, but it was like, really?

That's we're going to give sale. But then, and then the story contract, Trevor story for the, where it was, nobody would sign him in for HC because they're worried about his elbow. And then the Red Sox were going, Oh man, we can get him for that price. He was really good two years ago. And then they sign him and he blows out his elbow. But without bothering to check his home road splits in Colorado, just to know what you're actually bad contract.

Yeah. And then you're actually getting or like G Alito and, and, uh, and Bueller where you're spending, you know, you're getting like two expensive quarters instead of just trying to sign a dollar. I just think they're all over the map. That's my bigger issue. And I guess I, I, you know, and again, rarely the voice of optimism on the text thread.

I'm usually the other guy, but I would say with crochet at the top of the order, I mean, you could argue we have the most dominant starter and the most dominant closer in baseball. Okay, in between some question marks, although it looks like Whitlock might be turning the corner. Bayo had a great start purely as a byproduct of us benching him and Roto. And our keeper team. We turned the season around.

So I mean, you know, Gio Leto is going to make a run at Hersheiser's 59 consecutive scoreless innings apparently. So the team right now with these kids, I mean, you know, there are no guarantees as as We've learned a million times but you know Anthony Marcelo mayor and April Christian Campbell are Exciting at least if we if Casey can get back to what he was a mere six weeks ago Don't leave out nor via as the rookie of the year. And then Narvaez is a revelation, you know, as I said, so we have a young catcher, you know, Jaren Duran had an 8.7 war last year, that's a very exciting

player and that war is way over anything. Raffy Devers has ever posted. Devers has averaged a 3.8 war for the last four full seasons. This is great. It's just not, it's just not impossible to find 3.8 wins in other places. Now watching the two nothing victory last night, I did realize, Oh boy, we're going to have a lot of trouble scoring runs until pregnant gets back. Um, but hopefully once pregnant and a bradybreu are both back, you know, the,

the lineup has a little more length and, uh, we can keep winning these, these three one games. Well, I, uh, as you know, much to your chagrin, I really backed off with the Red Sox for a few years after the bet straight. I really had an issue with it. I didn't know if I was coming back and, uh, I got sucked in partly because we have Meyer on our ale keeper team. We, we spent $25 on Christian Campbell. We have Narvaez and I really got sucked back into the team. And it's been a weirdly fun season for a team that for two straight months lost every one run game they played. And if the game was in the 10th inning, it was just a guaranteed loss.

But yet it was fun. It was something fun about them. And I do like these teams that have the young kids, like when we were growing up that 74 Red Sox team and they brought up linen rice near the end. And then all of a sudden at 75, it blossomed. Um, we w we watched the pitchers in the eighties and all sudden they're on the 86 team and we've had experiences like this before and it, it did suck me back in and then they do this diverse trade, which was defensible, but at the same 16, we've had experiences like this before and it, it did suck me back in.

And then they do this Devers trade, which was defensible, but at the same time, like, Oh, we've saved all this money. Now we get to use this money elsewhere. And it's like, I don't trust you to use this money or spend it. Do you like, do you even think they're going to spend it? I mean, what are they going to spend it on? What do we need? We need relievers for them to extend Bregman now, maybe while he's in the rehab pool.

Well, his leverage is the best it's ever going to be right now, right? We do need another front line starter behind Crochet. And you know, is Raffy going to get trimmer as he gets older? Is he going to? It just seems like this. It's funny because I've been feeling gaslit by baseball all spring in that I was like, the Red Sox are not this bad and the Yankees are not this good. I just couldn't understand as we plummeted into a double digit deficit in the standings,

I'm like, how is Paul Goldschmidt hitting 350? This is not supposed to be happening. Well, the regression of the mean has started. Judge is not going to hit 400. Goldschmidt's not going to hit 350 and the Red Sox are not going to lose every one run game. And in the same way, I've been feeling gaslit by the Buster Olney's and Tyler Kepner's of the world. They were like, well, you can invoke Mookie if you want,

but the fact is this was an amazing escape act by the Boston Red Sox. That to get out from under this onerous contract, it's only going to get worse as baseball economics change. You know, with people watching MMA and Formula One, is there going to be more money running around baseball? Like a $313 million designated hitter is insane. And in fact, going back to the Mookie deal, it's crazy. Given that we were giving the Dodgers a generational player for nothing in return, that they would only eat 48 of the 96 million on the David Price contract. It's like,

you should have eaten that whole contract. You're getting lucky bets. So again, no one's defending that trade, but the particulars of that trade make this trade look better. They got a slow DH and they're eating the whole contract. Yeah, but he's gonna hit for San Francisco. I would bet anything he has a big last four months, he'll be rejuvenated. You know where it's gonna go. We've seen it too many times.

I would also say this about San Francisco, which is I, you know, I didn't. I didn't realize I texted you, but like I didn't realize what Robbie Ray was doing out there because we're in an ALE. Right. Our teams in the American League. But I was like, I was this guy's career was over. Like he hasn't won three games in three years. He's eight and one with two, one and five. And I'm sure he'll shut us out on Sunday in three years. He's eight and one with two, one, five, and I'm sure he'll shut us

out on Sunday in San Francisco. But I was like, I don't think the giants are comparable to the Dodgers. Like I think they're, they were close enough to believe that if they added a bat, they could compete with the Dodgers. But I don't, I don't, I don't think that's real. And I actually think that by the all- star break, the Dodgers will be six games ahead of the giants, uh, and, and pulling away, um, obviously. Shohei hit a hundred. Uh, our friend Mike Schor was, didn't like the trade and made a point that

I thought was really important about, uh, and it ties back to the bets trade. Why, why I think the bets trade is relevant to this, because I think it's something the owners in front of office don't really fully understand with the Red Sox. Like the Yankees would never let judge go or trade judge, right? That's their guy. They've made that decision five, six years ago. And the same way the Red Sox with Ortiz, probably somewhere in the 2000s were like, this guy's going to retire with us.

And I think like, especially as I get older, that's the kind of stuff I respond to with sports, like the chance to root for somebody for 20 years. And I think with bets, that's what hurt the most with all that was like that. Just, he just should have always been a Red Sox. And you, when you strike oil with a guy like that, and then to hear the owner talking about some of the reasons they decided he wasn't going to be worth it because we studied the history of these deals and as these guys get older and the, the, and it's like, this guy's the freak athlete of all freak athletes who

plays every position you want them to. Why didn't they have that same feelings for Devers? Why didn't they worry about what is this Devers deal going to look like when he's 35? Why was it with Mookie Betts that that was who they were worried about? I will never understand that. Well, I mean, I think as everybody has written, as you have said, is that, that, you know, the Devers signing was not in a vacuum. It was in response to the reaction.

It was pure panic. Yeah. It was the best thing. The city has turned on us. We have to do this. Let's compound that mistake with another mistake. The thing that's crazy about the Mookie thing, I mean, you and I have been through this a million times,

but generational talent, five tools, like does, he's not just generational. Nobody's ever done what Mookie Betts, you can't be a gold glove right fielder and then go play shortstop and then turn the back end of a double play at second base and then hit for power, but also hit behind the runner on a hit and run. You know, like it's crazy how singular he is.

He's a lot like Shohei in that regard. Like he's one of one. Then you go to the next thing, which is like the community. Is he a good citizen? Is he a good guy? And you're like, yeah, obviously, 10 out of 10 on every box. And he's feeding the homeless after playoff games. And this is, you know, like Big Poppy has a lifetime ambassador contract with the Red Sox. And that should have been

Mookie Betts, of course. Yeah. So I'm able to separate that mistake from this excellent trade. I am I'm delighted on excellent. I like it. I cannot believe how much they ate and how much we got back because I was looking at Kyle Harrison. I don't, you know, he's 23. Like that guy is, you know, is a big leaguer. That guy, a year ago, he was the number two pitching prospect that wasn't in the majors yet behind Paul skeins.

Seems relevant. It seems relevant. And so, and it's weird that Jordan Hicks was the lead name on the trade. When clearly he's kind of already pumpkined as a major leaguer and Kyle Harrison's best pick. Or maybe he's a reliever and shouldn't have been a starter. I don't know. I'm not giving up on him either.

You know, I actually looked up because Devers did win a title for us, right? He was the last guy from the 2018 team. Of course. And ironically, he makes that diving play toward the bag. It's an insane play when you think about what a shitty third baseman he would become. Right. It's a completely clutch defensive play. Also had a huge hit in that comeback. Yeah. So, so technically he's not eligible because they did win a title when he was part of the team, but it was, you know, he was young at that point. And you wouldn't have said he was one of the four best guys in the team or anything.

So I don't know. I have to look back at the rules and see if he's eligible. But I do think when you see how the team didn't react to the trade, we didn't have players going like, I can't believe we traded Raffy. What are we doing here? Like none of that is right. It's like, hey, and then you hear Breslau who, you know, might be a maniac for all we know, but he's like, I think we're going to have a better record at the end of the year than we would have if we had them. It makes me think this must've been pretty bad behind the scenes are pretty weird or pretty awkward or something.

So they feel like they're removing a literal very similar to no more. I know for when that guy very similar to really weird. And you know, like, if you look at the baseball card, Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mankiewicz is not a great return on paper. But, you know, you and I talked about it. It's going to make Derek Lowe better, because as soon as we get better defensively, Derek Lowe will be a better pitcher. We love the trade. We were like, we were like, oh, my God, we have a shortstop with range. Who's going to be able to make plays?

You know, and we had seen no more killing us in the field. But yeah, so I think it's going to be and I do think it's analogous. No more refusing to go into that game in New York while G is planting his face on a metal chair and no more outing. That is the analogy that feels right. So you have a guy that the team needs to play first base. He's saying I would rather just work my 12 minutes a night. I mean, what is a DH's job?

It's insane. Give a 12 minute work day. You work these four installments. It's gotta get psyched up for every at bat. I might be hitting again in 40 minutes. You sit around and the team needs you. So, you know, it's funny because you and I have talked a little bit about this. We're old now. We're in this older generation. And

it's like, you know, I think you and I both seen some of the Gen Z attitude, the entitlement. And of course, of course they're entitled. We've done nothing but tell them how awesome they are. Their whole lives. Oh my God, this awful finger painting is going right up on the fridge. Genius. Like, of course they're fucked up, but I really did feel like the, I'm not going to play first base. He's like, I've already, the quote where he said, I've already learned a new position, I've learned how to sit on the bench.

Like what is DH? Tell us, walk us through learning how to DH. Plus like if I was a professional baseball player, I'd want to play first base. It would just be more interesting. You get to be in the field. You might be, you might be involved in the action. I would just rather do that. And a below average third baseman can be a pretty good first baseman pretty quick. Like there's not, there's not that much to do, although I will say Abraham Toro and the collection of guys trying, you know, the, the Red Sox first baseman do this thing on every routine ground ball, the second base, they sprint and lay out.

So it's like, okay, if the pitcher's not over there, it's another infield hit. Yeah. Um, all right. We passed a lot of time for this. Pats. I was in Indy and I did Pats over nine and a half wins plus one 60 on Fandel. Couldn't have been more excited about it. Also bet some variable plus seven 50 coach of the year. I'm in.

I love it. We're, we are in the Roman Anthony Drake may era. It's a new day. It's a, don't, don't, don't forget about our guy, Marcelo Meyer, who we have on our fantasy team as well. He's a beautiful swing. Yeah. All right, Hatch, good to see you.

Thanks for venting to us. All right, thanks, brother. All right, we're taping this midweek. Conk Nippos here. He went to Duke University. Not for long. He's gonna be in the NBA draft. He's going to be drafted somewhere,

I would say in the top eight, but it's starting to seem like it's climbing higher than that. You've done a lot of interviews. This is the best one. I think this is the peak right here. Absolutely, 100%. Where are you right now? Are you in Wisconsin?

Yeah, I'm back home. I'm actually in my parents' bedroom, the most quiet place in the house. Oh, nice. That's your studio? Yep, I guess so. Oh, I see some wedding pictures in the background. Yeah, wedding pictures in the house. So oh nice. That's your studio. Yep. I guess so Oh, I see some I see some wedding pictures in the background pictures on the back. Yeah How long your parents were married? It's actually their anniversary coming up this week

So 2004 2004 oh my god. Yeah, I'm so old Jesus. Yeah, cuz one of the things one of the reasons we want to have you on was Your family sent a picture of you reading my book when you were a little kid, which I thought was hilarious that my book is now old enough that people who read the book as little kids are now being drafted in the lottery. But what, what kind of, so did you have like hands on parents that were driving you everywhere,

like basketball camps, uh, coaching your team? Like what was like your family situation? How'd you end up being like Mr. Basketball in Wisconsin? How'd you end up being a top five lottery pick potentially? Yeah, so both, both my parents played, uh, played college basketball. My mom played at, uh, UW Green Bay. Um, and then my dad played at, uh, Wisconsin Lutheran College, um, which is a D three in Milwaukee. So they, I mean, obviously they, they loved hoops and they, they wanted me to play. Um, my dad wasn't like a crazy coach or anything, uh, following me around.

So I never, I never played for him or anything. Um, but they definitely made sure I, uh, uh, worked on my game and got me in the gym as much as they could. And then really helped me out that way. Wait, I want to hear about the games for the parents. So what was your mom's game? What was her position?

What was her like, what was her skill set? Yeah. So she's six one. And she was, so she was a post at green Bay and she's actually the, yeah, she's actually the all time leading scorer there. So she's, I mean she loves to say Kevin McHale. The footwork, nice. Yeah, footwork up and under was the go-to move. But she didn't have quite as deep of a bag as him,

but that's what she likes to say. And what about your dad? My dad, he was like 6'4 and in D3, like he was like a three or a four, but he could really shoot it. I'd say a three or four, cause he averaged like 10 rebounds a game as his sophomore year.

But yeah, it was really just like a shooter, mid range, three point. He's actually, I think he's the all time steals leader there too. So a little bit anticipation from him, but I don't know if I could put really a. The player on him because his go-to move is a post fade away at six four. So, it's like TJ McConnell. Yeah.

Yeah. Getting into the lane, bouncing backwards. Well, it's interesting. So you got the shooting probably from your dad's side, but some of the footwork, like one of the things like watching all the tape with you, you have this herky jerky around the rim up fake game when you get into the paint that like you're patient, you'll wait, you'll do, and then you'll, it's a little like TJ McConnell has it,

Prichard, not to mention all white guys, but Prichard has it. People around the rim who don't necessarily go right to the basket, but kind of use defenders against themselves. Which I noticed with you, the other thing that, I mean the catch and shoot stuff is unbelievable. The footwork, but what do you think is the best part

of your offensive game that you're the most proud of? Yeah, I think probably the shooting now. I used to not, growing up I wasn't always a great shooter. So I really had to work on that. Just like in my mechanics and all that stuff. I always had good form, but I just, for whatever reason, I wasn't always a great shooter. So that's probably-

So like in ninth grade you weren't like a dead eye? Like. Like right when I got to high school is when I started to become a really good shooter. So in middle school I couldn't shoot threes like that. But I knew I had to play. Were you taller? Kinda.

Cause I noticed like in your high school stats like you actually were rebounding and it seemed like you were almost being played a forward. Yeah, no, I was like a forward for my first three years before my senior year when I had to handle the ball. But like, yeah, I definitely got to, when I got to high school, I was like, all right, I gotta be able to shoot threes.

And that's kind of been the thing that I can always rely on on the offensive end to create advantages for myself. So I'd probably say that for sure. Well, I mean, I'm sure I'm like slightly to blame for this, but when guys are in the draft, we love doing comps. I remember doing the draft for ESPN in 13 and 14 and forcing them to do a player comp segment, which Jalen was terrible at.

I used to make fun of him, he just could never get the hang of it. Now he's better at it. But you've had some fun ones. The comps for Conk Nipple are all over the map, but one of the ones that I think is somewhat valid, there's some clay stuff with you that I think some people have mentioned. That would be the ideal if that was a clay type of career, right? Yeah, that would be the absolute, that would be the ideal if that was a clay type of career, right? Yeah, I mean that would be the absolute, um, that would be awesome. I mean, I've always tried to, you know, everybody wants to play like clay. If you're, if you're a shooter or, uh, and he's a, also was a great defensive

player, um, back when he, before, before the injuries and before he's gotten older now, but, um, you know, that's someone you look up to when you're a player like me, and that would be absolutely awesome. It's funny you mentioned the draft stuff, because me and my family were actually just watching, in between one of the finals games, I was like, we gotta watch, I don't know how it came up,

but there was like, your highlights from the 2013 draft. On YouTube, the whoa! Yeah, yeah, yeah, and, but like, you were just like spot on the whole draft. It was really funny. So I was, I was watching that with my, my dad and my, my family outside while we were at halftime of the finals. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. I was, I had a good draft that year. I don't think the next year I did as well, but that was like one of the great

drafts because it was David Stern's last draft. Nobody knew who the first pick was going to be. It ended up being Anthony Bennett. Yannis was in the draft nobody knew what to make a him and it just It was just all over there was a big Celtic trade that draft But you know when I look at this stuff and this is why it's so funny with with your rise as a prospect You're always gonna be a first-rounder. But I remember when I started watching Duke, because I love Cooper Flack, I was like, I just thought he had it.

Especially somebody weaned on the 86 Elthix is my kind of guy. But the fact that he reclassified, he's playing older kids, and he just seemed, he reminded me so much of the stuff I loved about KG, even though they're not the same size, but just like the competitiveness, how he's good at everything, how he's an anchor, he's a good passer.

So I started watching Duke and I was texting our college basketball guys. I'm like, what's up with this canipple? Was he, where's he supposed to go in the draft? Cause he keeps jumping out to me and they were like, no, no, he might be a lottery pick. Um, and I was like, this seems like the kind of guy they're going to screw up. And I ended up going 19th and then he'll be really good. I'm like, how did he fall to 19?

But somewhere in the mix in the last two months, you jumped up and now you're in like, you're in the top five conversation. When did, when did, when did that flip? You know, I don't really know. Um, I think, I don't really know. I think a lot of it helped with the ACC tournament when Cooper was out. So being able to see me in a scenario where I'm the guy for a couple of games. And then just kind of carrying that over into the NCAA tournament.

I think that helped. But then, I mean, I don't really know. I haven't, I haven't played in front of anybody other than my, the team workouts I've been doing. Um, so I guess I made a decent impression in some of my interviews and, and I don't know. What are they at? What do they ask you in these interviews? Do you feel like they're trying to get under the hood with you and try to

break you psychologically or what are they, what are they up to? Yeah, I don't, I don't think so. You know, like you always hear the stories about like people getting like asked ridiculous questions. Right. Um, I didn't really have many of those. I think they're really just trying to get to know you. What makes you tick? Um, how you think the game as a player, um, you know, some teams they'll do, they'll

have you draw step up on a board. They just want to hear how you talk about the game, uh, how you talk about, uh, scenarios and, uh, in the, in the course of the season, like what, what your defensive coverages are, they, they want to get into all that stuff and then baseline stuff about like who you are as a person as well. Yeah, that's see, I would do it completely differently. If I ran a team, I would be, I would be so interested in work ethic. What your day to day routine was.

Um, do you feel like you're the player you can be five years from now? I would be going into all the. Hardwire stuff because I honestly, at the point you're at now with a lot of these prospects, they're all pretty much around the same talent and then the work ethic Hardwire stuff because I honestly at the point you're at now with a lot of these prospects They're all pretty much around the same talent and then the work ethic and like having one elite skill and then that's when it starts To separate but like I'm sure you saw that with Cooper like he's famous for that Like he's just a maniac in every single drill Every day every practice everything and it really does feel like those are the guys that ascend. You know what I mean?

Yeah, and I think they try to get a feel for that too. So some of those questions that you were saying, but yeah, like when you mentioned a guy like Cooper, like that stuff is kind of evident too, as in the way he plays, like he doesn't take plays off in the game. So you can kind of see how that would correlate to a practice.

Like he's not taking any drills off. He wants to win every drill. That stuff carries over. Does that carry correlate to a practice. Like he's not taking any drills off. He wants to win every drill. Um, that stuff carries over. Does that carry over to the teammates? It must write a little bit. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think for the most part we had, we had guys that are stealth driven in that way anyway, this, this past season.

Um, but I mean, when the best guy's doing it, everybody's going to do it. Or you look at me and it's been two months now. Do you look back at that final four just like, is this going to haunt me the rest of my life? Like, like what, what is your relationship to that game now that it's, it's in the river mirror? Yeah. I mean, I told my, I told my assistant coach, um, coach Dildy, the night, the night of the game, like right after the, right after the game, we got to the hotel. I was like, I was, we were going on the elevator and I was getting off and I was like, I'll never forget that for the rest of my life. Like that'll just,

that'll just sit with you. Uh, just one of those games and it's, you know, it's, it's tough. Like it took me about like a month to watch your episode on it. You and Russo did an episode on it. Yeah. It took me about a month to get around to that.. You and Rusilo did an episode on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It took me about a month to get around to that and I thought you did a really good job. I think you had a tweet about it too that like broke down all the things that went wrong down the stretch and like you just flip one of those things

and you win the game. So it's one of those that just that eats at you. But now I'm kind of passed it. I don't think about it all the time. Yeah. And sort of that sense. But when someone brings it up, it doesn't, doesn't bring up good feelings. Well, the good thing is when you're much older and you're like my age, you can barely remember anything. So don't worry. I probably won't haunt you that much, but it is, it is crazy.

That team you had though, when you like, I'm just looking at it in the context. I'm a casual college basketball fan. I'll float in. I'll watch certain teams, but then I really get into the draft and I really enjoy that part and trying to come up with my weird takes on everybody. But, um, your team is so fun from a 2025 draft standpoint, you know, like even, absolutely even the center, like, like could he, he might, could he go fifth? Could he go six? Could he go eighth? I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point.

I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point.

I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point.

I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good point. about college basketball. It's one game. It's not like, you know, you're not playing the best of seven. Right. The best team always wins the best of seven. I feel unless some injury happens or something, but, um, in college, it's just, it's, it's always a toss up. You know, those, those plays at the end of the game. Yeah. Cause even okay. See Indiana, I remember after game three, Indiana goes up. Now I'm at the game, I'm doing the pod with Zach,

and both of us were like, man, this isn't usually how basketball goes. Usually like the best team, if in a four out of seven, the best team almost always wins unless something crazy happens. Like Indiana had the reverse, we're now how Albert and Cert. But for the most part, if you're gonna play seven times,

usually the right team wins. Right. But in a one gamer, who the hell knows? All right, so it looks like you're in the three to seven range. So did you work out with Philly? I have a Zoom with them this week, but I did not work out with them. Do you start, cause you're like an actual basketball fan.

Do you look at all these teams and try to figure out like, hmm, what would I look like in this situation? What would I like? Is your brain even go that way? You're trying to think about it. Yeah. I mean, you do a little bit. Um, but I think like something I learned a big time here at Duke this year is my

first time not being the best player on a team. You know, I probably could have went to another college and been the best player. But just learning how to like affect the game. Yeah. When the ball is not in your hands or when you're not the number one guy and learning about myself that I can still be an effective player doing that. So I feel pretty confident in like any situation I'm going to go into that

I'll be able to affect winning and, and, and be able to contribute. Yeah. That's the thing. And I, I, I, Rossello is a big fan of your prospects too, for the next level. Cause we tend to gravitate toward the guys that we just feel like could fit in. In any type of situation, right? Like you look at Philly. Philly's got guards. They have Embiid. It's pretty easy to see where you would fit in there. Like you would spread the floor for them.

You might be able to initiate some offense. Then you go to a team like Utah, where they have marketing and they have the guards. But then I could also see where you fit in with them. Charlotte's like kind of perfect with L Mellow and Bridges and Brandon Miller. Like they clearly need somebody like you. So you go on through and I don't know, it just feels like you could fit in any situation, push. You can play multiple positions, right? Like potentially you could play a three in some position in some situations.

You could be a two. You could initiate some offense. Like I'm not worried about you. Yeah, I definitely think, um, you know, I tend to have a little bit, like I'm not worried about you. Yeah, I definitely think, you know, I tend to have a little bit, like I have a versatile skill set beyond just the shooting. Like you can get on the court shooting anywhere. That you could play for any team if you can shoot the ball. But definitely some of those other skills that I can bring to the table, like you mentioned, initiating offense and stuff like that stuff is valuable to any team.

Rebounding. With the catch and shoot stuff, that's, I mean, that's hard work, because that's a different kind of skill set. So you must have spent some serious time working on that. Right? Yeah, when I was, yeah, when I got to that high school, freshman, sophomore, I was on a shooting machine, which I stopped

doing because I had to practice more off the move and all that stuff. I really hammered down my mechanics. My brother is a really good shooter and he can just fling it. It's natural. Mine is very, good word for it, just very fundamental. It's gotta be a strong shot, like everything has to come together. So I think definitely just the amount of time

I put working on my form and my mechanics really contributed to that But I think I think going forward now, like it's it's like riding a bike kind of right Yeah, you put a lot of time into it. I put so much time into that before and now I can just keep like adding different ways To shoot like right now. I'm working a ton off the dribble. That's an area. I need to grow It's it and it's just it's just different, you know, like, it's just a different feel is just to catch and shoot whereas, or an off the dribble or an off the move shot, um, but that, that, that's like kind of the baseline. It's like form shooting almost.

Yeah. And you have to, and you're already pretty good at like coming off the screen at the top, doing the one-handed across the core pass, which I don't know when that pass got started But all the sudden now, it's like it's like a month. You have the ball And it's a high degree of difficulty on it. What are the thing you're most worried about the next level? What's your whole? Yeah, I mean I think everybody's you know, like I guess playing into the stereotype a little bit of, you know, white guy, they're going to, they're going to challenge you. Um, defensively, they're going to go at you, see what you're made of.

So just being ready, ready for that and, um, being really focused on that. And so every time you go out there, um, just being, just being really focused on that and it's going to, it's going to be really key. Being hunted. Yeah. It's funny though, sometimes that can work in your favor because the funniest was that Celtics' Hauser, they would hunt Hauser and not realize that it was actually a bad idea a lot of the time, but everyone would try to do it.

They'd be like, look at the white guy, let's go get him. And then it wouldn't work out most of the time because he was actually a pretty good one-on-one shooter. Pretty good, yeah, because he played for Tony Bennett at Virginia. Like he's, he's all right sliding his feet. And Prichard was another one that, you know, he was undersized, but he would fight, fight, fight and do it. So when you watch, I'm sure you've watched a ton of the finals, right?

Yeah, absolutely. So do you, do you try to envision like, could I play in this level? Who would I be on this Indiana team? Could I have been in the Wigan spot on this? Okay. C team. Are you thinking that, or are you just watching the games? Yeah.

You think about it a little bit. Like I went to both bucks games, um, when they played Indiana. Um, so just like kind of thinking about, man, like how could I, you know, the first thing you see in the playoffs is the physicality. Yeah. Like how are you gonna adjust to that? And then you think about how you can help teams

and you know, I really gravitated towards Neesmith in that first round. Yeah. And like, I mean, he's been really, he's been awesome. Like I just love his shot. Like he always gives it a chance. Like every time he releases it, it feels like it's going, it's either going long or it's going in. Yeah. Um, it's not, it's, he's never missing

it short. So I gravitate towards him and you know, he's got, he's got really long arms and stuff, but um, just, he's a great shooter and, and uses his body and his physicality while in defense. Are you a Bucks fan? Is that fair to say? Was that your team? Yeah, absolutely. So when they won in 21, you're going nuts. Yeah. That was a special time.

We're a long ways from there. I know. It's funny. I had Doc on my podcast yesterday and we were talking about the East is so wide open. They have the best guy in the conference. Everybody thinks they're going to trade them and they're not. And it's, if you have the best guy in the conference, you have to feel like

you have a chance, even if the rest of the team is a little rocky, but I think that's kind of where they've landed, at least for the next year, the East is so wide open, you're probably going to be in the East, right? Unless it's Utah. All the other teams from three to eight are big. Oh yeah, New Orleans would be the other one, right? Yeah. Yeah, so I've given up my books fandom.

That's it. Yeah, so I mean, I, yeah, I guess, I guess that's it. That's fine, just Cooper can't give up the Celtics thing because we're counting on him in six years. Yeah, he's gone six years. We'll find out if he's actually a Celtic fan six years from now, because we were saving 2032 cap space for him.

We want him to be the first one who plays at his rookie contract and then just jumps to his favorite team right after. You can do the same thing. You can start, maybe it can start to trend. Uh-huh. Yeah. Convince him to do that for you. Give me a Cooper story about what

a over competitive maniac he is. Yeah, I like this one just because it's the first time we played pickup. So we went down there a week before. We actually had to go down there for the summer. So there's this thing I do called K Academy. A bunch of guys pay a whole bunch of money to get playing like a league. Yeah. Like a fantasy camp, basically. Right. It's pretty cool. But the guys are, we're helping run it.

We're helping coach. And then after every day we play pickup. So it's just like any other, any other pickup game. Guys are going really hard. It's kind of our first time going against each other. The coaches aren't in there but you know they got the cameras or whatever they can probably see a play and so everybody's going at each other. And me and Cooper on the same team and we were winning every game. Um, it was, it was really fun. And then he switches teams. And then that we played like three more games and that team won all three games.

Right. So it's just like, that's just like any other game. Like it doesn't matter. Middle school, high school, college, the guy that does that is, is the best player. The guy, the guy that who wins all day switches teams and then wins, wins three more games. Um, so I remember telling my dad, I'm like, yeah, he switched teams when we were playing pickup and all the games. Is it, is it weird to just pass through a school for 10, 11 months and then you're

gone and then you're gone. And then for the rest of your life, people are like, Dukes, con, canipo. And it's like, you were there for two semesters plus some summer games. Right. It's, it's just kind of weird how that's played out in the 21st century. Yeah, it sucks. Um, cause you get, you get so close with all these teammates. Yeah. And, and you get close with the coaches. You're with them all the time, every day.

And then it's like, especially now with like the transfer portal, like right after the season, like we came home and the coaches are meeting with the guys who have like a decision to make as far as like, are you staying or leaving? Yeah. So like they're doing that right away when they get back, there's like no time for reflection, they're trying to get a roster together get back. There's like no time for reflection. They're trying to get a roster together for next year. You're not making s'mores by a campfire.

Just talking about it. Yeah, it's just moving on. Reflecting on the season, you just move on and it kind of stinks. And then like if you think like, oh man, I had so much fun this year, you think about like, oh, like what would you do coming back? And then it's just a completely different team anyway. So it's never going to, it's never going to be the same. So you don't, you don't really think about that for too long.

Yeah. You're coming back and basically joining a different AU team that has Duke jerseys and the same coaches. Right. Yeah. I don't like it. They made me the Zara sports and asked me to fix college hoops. The natural fix would be if you go to any college you go to, you

should have to stay for two years. So there's at least a little more stability, right? And that includes the coaches. But I don't think somebody like you or Cooper or whoever else should be forced to stay in college for two years. If you guys can become, you know, lottery picks or whatever, it's just, you just never know with how long an athletic career could be. So to, to force somebody to stay isn't right either.

I don't, I don't know how you fix it. It's one of those like unsolvable dilemmas, you know, and it feels like it's getting worse. Yeah. And like we see too, with like all this stuff, the NCAA like can't, can't fight anything, so everything that goes through is getting passed. Um, the coaches talk about all the time is it really is the wild West. It really, and especially the NIL stuff, you're like an 18 year old kid

navigating all these crazy offers. What was the worst NL, an IEL offer you got? Sex toys, anything terrible? No. Sex toys, anything terrible? Yes. No, I don't know if I had a worst one. How did people approach you? Did you have like a handler? Or was it like your parents? Yeah.

So you can have like an AL agent. Yeah. So I had an agent. But I was born, I didn't really care. I just stuck with the money you get from the collective at whatever school you go to. And I did a couple of things, but it was like the bare bones. You take an Instagram, make an Instagram post, take one picture, and then it's like whatever money you get.

So I wasn't really too focused or big on it. So I don't know if wasn't really too, too focused or big on it. Um, so I don't, I don't know if I had a, I had a worse, worse one. Did you have, who was like, did you, were you in a suite? Who were your roommates? Like, were you with the other basketball guys? What was the deal? Yeah, we were, we were in the dorm. Um, we were, we were in dorms over on the, uh, uh, dorms over on East campus at Duke, which is the freshman campus. Yeah. And we got like a full room.

So most people would share one room. Yeah. And it's like, I remember somebody was like, how come they get a full room? And like, the person we were moving in with us was like, because Kamon is seven foot two. Right. He's not sleeping in like a twin bed or whatever. Yeah. So we shared, it was like a Jack and Jill.

So it was like two rooms that were connected, shared a bathroom. Yeah, it was pretty high level, but it was all in the freshman dorm. It was super nice around all the other regular day to day students. And then the season ends and you get exams and then that's it You never go back

Some guys don't even do the exams the season ends and they're like, I'll see you a bit later Yeah, so I think I think Duke does it well because like we have we all in-person classes Yeah, so a lot of a lot of schools will just kids are just online and they're just clicking through, I don't know, someone's probably doing a forum too. Yeah. And most schools, I shouldn't say I know everything, but I know a lot of schools that do, they're done with school before the tournament.

Right. So you're done really going. You're not gonna wear that at Duke. Yeah, they don't go to class, go to class anyway. So we're going to in-person class. So we kind of stay. We have to stay a little bit longer than probably some other kids that declared for the draft.

Where did your parents want you to go to college? My mom wanted me to go to Duke. Oh, really? So they weren't like putting Wisconsin pressure on you or any of that stuff? My dad, I think, probably wanted a Marquette. Yeah. It'd been cool, but my mom was all the way in on Duke. Is there a reason? Would she make the Christian Leighton documentary? Like, what was the reason? No, I think she just, uh, she knew what, how big like Duke is, is, is a brand in college basketball. And she was like, oh, you're gonna play all the big games and all that. And she was in for that.

So anybody who knows my mom at all, she's all in for that stuff. Did you pick before or after Cooper picked? Before. Oh, so what a bonus. Yeah, and it was great. I remember when it was coming down to it and it was them or us or UConn.. I was I remember when it was coming down to it and it was hit them or your us or

Yukon and I was like Come on, like they just won twice. I come on. Let's Like I wasn't I wasn't talking to him or anything Like I was I'd only met him once but I was like, oh man, this would be really really good if he Yeah came here obviously and then I remember seeing it the slam thing or whatever Yeah in class in the morning. I was like, let's go. This is gonna be awesome. Well, you had a crazy class of, I guess it's 2024,

but just like an unusually loaded class of dudes. Like even if you go back and you look at the ESPN Top 100 and like some of the guys are like five guys with 96 ratings or above, the some of the guys are like five guys with 96 ratings are above the two Rucker guys or Ruckers guys are in there edge comes in there and you've probably been playing against a bunch of these guys since what age like 15 16. Yeah. I want you to get, yeah.

Like sophomore freshman sophomore year. Yeah. So what were your initial impressions of some of these dudes as you're like at these big tournaments and you know, it's like, Oh, there's Dylan Harper. I've heard about him. Yeah. So I played, I think I played Dylan Harper once and yeah, we put them once. So we actually, we actually beat them and they ended up being really good.

It made the final four of like the Nike circuit, but my team was the, my team was a team that I think we were 500. Um, but my team was the team that I think we were 500. But my team was a team like we'd beat like a really good team like them and then go and lose to the worst team. My junior year we weren't very good, but I remember playing him. Was there anybody that blew you away? I remember VJ like I saw VJ play at a camp and I'm like, this guy just can fly. Like it was, I remember being really impressed with him.

Obviously Cooper played against him a couple of times because he just had such a unique game. Where like in high school, he wasn't a great, I think he got to the point at Duke where he was like a very good three point shooter. But he wasn't like a good shooter. And like earlier in high school, like at least from three, it was like all mid range.

So just like interesting to watch him play. I'm like, he's so effective. He's can't even, can't even shoot like that, but he just had a, a crate, obviously the wingspan and all that. It was just like a very interesting game. High motor. Yeah. I did, I did.

What about Ace Bailey? Did you ever go against him? I never saw, I never saw an ACE Bailey. Um, I ever played against him because he was a, I think he was an Adidas. He was on the Adidas circuit. So, you know, you don't really cross paths with guys. Yeah. It's so funny. You have these circuits with the different shoes where you don't even see the guys.

Yeah, it's weird. It's definitely weird and it's all political too. So, you know, they get pissed off about it, but I don't remember seeing him. I remember Derek Queen. Derek Queen was at the camps, all the camps and stuff. Like, it's hard to have a big, like some teams don't have a big at these camps. And so he, like, I remember we played him

and he was at 30, just just like nobody could stop him. He's really good, he's super skilled. Yeah, it's funny at those camps are like just basically giant pickup games. So the point guards always come out good because they have the ball all the time. The shooters like you come out great because you're gonna just hit open shots.

And then if there's a big guy who can wreak havoc, that's the other one who's going to jump out and then everybody else has to kind of figure out how to fit in. And the circumstances. Yeah, they aren't, they aren't the best circumstances to, um, for everybody, but, um, they're definitely, you know, it's a different type of environment. So I think that's actually the NBA 100 camp. That's when Duke first saw me.

Yeah. And, you know, those things can actually, can actually matter, which is weird because it's not always very good basketball. So have you thought about like, well, what's the girlfriend situation? Who's going to be at the draft with you? What do you got going?

Who's the entourage? Who do we have to look for? Yeah, so I get six people at the table. So that's my whole family. I got four little brothers. You have four little brothers? Yeah. Oh my God. Yep. All right. Plus the two parents. There you go. Plus two parents. So that's my table. And then My cousin is coming My girlfriend one of my best buddies from from the team at Duke and then my uncle who actually gave me your book for Christmas So I like that guy. Yep. Yeah, he's great Yeah, you put in the NBA for a little bit. Did he really? Yeah appeared in 13 games for the Bucs Plus he's got a basketball reference page.

Yeah. Jeff Nordgaard. Wow. I vaguely remember that name. Yeah. Um, yeah, he was in the, he likes to claim he's in, he's in the 96 draft. So he's like, I was part of the best draft class ever. It's me.

Kobe. What's the suit situation? Oh, you thought about it. Thought about colors like that. You're not that far away now. Yeah. Navy blue suit, Navy tie, white shirt. I'm not, that's not my cup of tea really.

So I got a lot of help from my mom and from the agent and all of that, but I'm not, it won't seem like rady Dick or anything. Yeah. He was trying to make a statement. So it's like, it seems like maybe he still does. It seems like you're a giant basketball fan though, which I, it feels like with NBA players, they go one in two ways either, you know, they're in the league cause they're good at

basketball, but they don't really know what's going on. And then there's other people who are like, no, no, I'm actually a student. It's a big deal for me to be playing against so-and-so. I followed his whole career, but it seems like you're in that camp. Yeah, absolutely. This whole process here has been really awesome.

My uncle was kind of a big influence, and he knows all these players. We used to talk about basketball all the time. But this process has been really cool because you're meeting all these former players. Like when I was at the combine, I was in the elevator with like Brian Cardinal and I'm like, oh, this is awesome. The janitor. Like this is stupid stuff like that. Or like I was in my interview with, uh, OKC and Nick Collison's in there. So it would be random guys like that.

That I that's really cool for me. And then you obviously like the meeting, meeting the all stars and like this, the guys I've crossed paths with at Duke is like Paulo and stuff like that is, is really cool. But yeah, I just love hoops and. Um, it's been awesome to fall and all that NBA player stuff is something I've always gravitated towards. Wait, so there was an interview with OKC?

That must have been before they didn't get the seventh pick. Yeah, well, at the combine, there's like, you interview for like, I interviewed for like 14 teams. Oh, you're just talking to everybody, yeah. So they kind of request you and then, it's both, they request you before it's determined before the lottery. Right.

All right. I'm not going to ask you what team you're rooting to get picked because the correct answer is it's just going to be great to be drafted. I've always wanted to be in the NBA. Any team will be awesome. I love every American city. Every city sounds great. I love every American city. Every city sounds great. I love Charlotte, it'd be great to be near Duke.

Washington, I've always wanted to go there. Utah looks awesome, I'll take up skiing. Yeah, you just go through them all. Yeah, you definitely can't give any leeway there. I personally, I don't give any leeway there, but I personally, I don't mean to make this awkward, but I, I personally think you make a ton of sense for Charlotte and I would be surprised if, uh, just for what they need, if they're going to keep their, their nucleus together, I could just see you on

that team, but it's going to be, you'll be somewhere in that three to seven. I don't think it goes past seven would be my guess, But all of those teams, I feel like you'd play for, New Orleans might be the only weird one because they have a bunch of guards, but, you know, whatever, just keep working. Rebound, don't forget to grab those rebounds. Get in there, pad the box score. Yeah, absolutely.

Keep. I was mad this year. I mean, like we got, cause I was, I was obviously a good rebounder in high school. It means easier when you're, when you're a big guy, but like, I was, I would always get pissed cause we had Cian James out there, the six five, he gets mad when everybody calls him a linebacker, but he's huge. He rebounds and then you got Cooper and come on. It's like those guys steal everything. So, yeah, it's like, I get, I get four or whatever.

And it's like, man, maybe I, I'd have six if Caleb Foster is in there and see, see, I'm has a, you know, Caleb Foster was an LA kid who I thought was awesome in high school. You know, Caleb Foster was an LA kid who I thought was awesome in high school. And I still feel like, I don't know, I'm, I'm holding my stock for him. I still feel like, uh, there's something, yeah, there's something there with him. He had some really, really good cause the LA high school scene was crazy. And you know, that's where Jeremy came out of and a bunch of people, but I thought, uh, I just thought he was really good in high school.

Yeah, no, he's a, he's a super, super hard worker. So, um, I think you guys should expect big things from him this year. He's a really, really good player, really good kid. Um, and so it says something about him coming back to, you don't see that a lot. You don't see that a lot anymore in college. So, um, I think, uh, I think he'll have a big year this year. What's the coach K, how often does he kind of hang around the dude, like that, does he just show up randomly? Like how many times did you interact with him?

I interacted with him a little, pretty decent amount actually. Yeah, he's, he's awesome. But he's not, he tries to give like obviously the new staff is space, their space and whatever, but he's up still on the sixth floor. So there's six floors, all the coaches are on the fifth floor and then he's got his office on the sixth floor. Oh yeah. It's pretty funny. But yeah, he came to practice probably a couple times. He came and talked to us before the

season. Um, but you'll see him in there getting his workout in doing his, doing his dips and his pull-ups. Um, but he's, he's great. He's, uh, he's super funny. He's got a really dry sense of humor. Uh, he'll drop some F bombs every once in a while. Oh yeah. Yeah, a little bit.

Um, but he's, he's great. He's, he was a good resource. Obviously he's one of the best resources to have for basketball stuff in the world. Um, so I've enjoyed all my conversations that I got to have with him. All right. So big picture. Um, keep up, keep a low profile as a rookie. Right?

No, no, no con can nipple news. Nothing. You want to stay out of all the blogs, just, just playing hard, making, making shit happen, hitting some threes, no player podcast for at least two years. Yeah, I'm not doing that. Yeah. Push that on the side. Don't worry about that.

I like listening. Yeah. You don't need to do it. Maybe, maybe much later in your career. Um, I'm trying to think what else. Well, plus it's going to take everybody like half a year to realize how to pronounce your name because you have like a deceiving name, cause it looks like it should be can up old, but it's canipal.

So you have a lot of mispronunciations coming out of the gate. Then people get used to that. Um, but then I think the big moment will be when you go against clay and it like how that interaction goes. Does he be like, Hey man, I've been following you. Good luck, man. You remind me a lot of me back in the day, like one of those to try to psych you out.

And then he'll put on like 20 on you in the first half. In the first quarter probably. Yeah. He'll try to rope a dope you with some sort of compliment. And then, then, which, which guy are you the most excited to go against? Just from like I'd grown up as a basketball fan, just being on the same court with somebody.

No, it's probably Steph or LeBron. Yeah. I would imagine. Yeah. Like, like that's, I mean, for me, that's like peak basketball. I'm in like middle school for those four finals in a row. Right. And that's like, those are like when LeBron had the 20, whole 2018 run, even though they

didn't have a chance. Like he was awesome. And then obviously the three, one stuff. But yeah, probably those guys. And then Janis in there. And I just want to see what it's like to play against Jokic too. Like how horrible that is. Cause he's, I don't think it's fun. Yeah. I mean, he's just seems like he's the fact that he took okay. See the seven is incredible. Like I just, after watching okay. See in the Western conference finals and so far in the finals, it's like, man,

that guy is so good. Yeah. Well, what do you, do you think Cooper on Dallas? You think that team can be good right away? Like him and Davis Kyrie comes back. Are you expecting them to be like immediately good? Yeah, I think so. I, cause it'll be weird.

I mean, I don't know who's going to guard. Like, is Cooper getting the like third best defender? Right. You know what I mean? Like that's a good, really good situation to come into as a rookie. Like is Cooper getting the like third best defender? Right. You know what I mean? Like that's a good, really good situation to come into as a rookie. And I think it'll be able to let him have the ball in his, be able to play make and you know, Kyrie is going to have the ball in his hands.

Davis is going to have the ball in his hands. But I really think Cooper, that'll be a really good spot for him right away at least to be able to come in, contribute in a big way. And then it'll be, I think it'll be a really good spot for him right away, at least to be able to come in. Uh, contribute in a big way. And then it'll be, I think it'll be on a good team. Like that's where it's not just like, you know, empty calories for, for a team that isn't really maybe not going anywhere. But I think, I think that'll, that'll fuel his fire, you know? Well, it's interesting is it's a, it's a weird team for him, but not really

because I feel like he actually could defend threes. Like if they played him in a center and Davis altogether, he could actually pull it off. It doesn't seem like that would be the best way to use them, but he could definitely do it. And now you have like all this size in a league where everybody's trying to go smaller and that would be like a bitch to play against when you think about it. Especially if it's like, it's lively, right? You know, like it's lively who can move. AD can move. Yeah. And Cooper obviously is super fluid. So like,

I could have some like dangerous like switching. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like it'll be very interesting to see. Well, and then the stuff he started to do at Duke, uh, even as the season went along where they were initiated in the offense through him and he was point forwarding, you know, some of these plays, which is basically what happened with Tatum with the Celtics over the course of he, they weren't doing that with him at all in 2018 and around, you know, early 2020s it started happening more and then by 22, he was really comfortable with it.

And it seems like Cooper was comfortable with it right away. It's something, you know, that's going to be a next step for you too. Trying to figure out, can we run offense through him versus always having to run them off? Right. Yeah, definitely. I've been as a, as a player, you want to be able to contribute in as many facets of the game as you can.

But I think definitely for me going forward, like I, I probably Definitely as a player, you want to be able to contribute in as many facets of the game as you can. But I think definitely for me going forward, like I played a lot in ball screens this year, but that's something I want to get better at. And for Cooper going forward, I think it's something that comes pretty naturally to him. And it will be like you watch the Pacers, they have so many guys that can initiate offense, and that's what makes them so dangerous and how they can play so fast. So I think that's probably where the game is going to keep going. Yeah.

I do feel like it's some new version of basketball. I was thinking that when I was, it was, it, nobody had the ball for too long. Everybody was cutting and moving and multiple guys on each team. We're trying to create plays like as the initiator versus like the basketball we've had forever where it's one guy, everybody stands around one guy, one come one pickup, playoff, backing everybody down. Yeah. Three guys are just standing in their spots and it feels like this is a more fun version.

I don't know how many teams are going to be able to play that style, but we'll see. All right. Well, I'm glad you have a good head on your shoulders. I'm glad. I'm glad. Uh, I'm glad we'll put that picture on social. You read in my book when you were a kid, cause that really cracked me up. That book has some inappropriate, uh, words and jokes in there. So I'm glad I was able to corrupt you.

It definitely does. It's probably not for the 10 year old years or whatever I was, but I'm glad. Um, especially with all the, you know, the pop culture references and that stuff. That's up to me and my dad's favorite is the rewatchables. So good. What was your, what was your favorite episode or did you have like a favorite movie we did? Um, I mean, I, I really enjoyed when Kyle Branson with you.

So I probably said like Rudy, the Rudy episode, cause that's one of my favorites. Um, oh good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my dad, my dad's listening to all the time. Like he goes, whatever he's doing yard work, getting some shots up or something. He's got the headphones in listening to the real washables. Oh, that's great to hear.

Tell him, thank you. Um, good luck. I hope you, I hope, wherever you land, I'm sure it's going to work out, but I hope it would be fun to see you on a team where you could contribute and play right away and, and, you know, keep, keep working your ass off. But, um, thanks for coming on though. I'm rooting for you. Yeah, I really appreciate it. Thank you. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Eduardo and Gaha. We're,

we're really putting it through the wringer this week. No pun intended. I'm going to be back on Thursday night after game six, me and Zach Lowe and Rob Mahoney. It's probably going to be an Oklahoma city title because Tyrese Albert and his hurt, which we covered with Doc Rivers on Monday night. But that will be live on YouTube as well in the Bill Simmons channel. So I will see you on Thursday night. Must be 21 plus and president select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in President DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com.

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