The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Invincible OKC, Knicks Nirvana, and Acceptable Giannis Trades With Zach Lowe, Ariel Helwani, Sean Fennessey, and Ben Thompson

Episode Date: May 21, 2025

Bill Simmons is joined by Zach Lowe to react to Game 1 of the WCF between the Thunder and Timberwolves (5:23). Then, Bill talks with Ariel Helwani and Sean Fennessey about the Knicks’ playoff run and their excitement for the new MMA film ‘The Smashing Machine,’ directed by Benny Safdie and starring Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson (54:35). Finally, Ben Thompson joins to talk Giannis trade scenarios (01:38:53). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Zach Lowe, Ariel Helwani, Sean Fennessey, and Ben Thompson Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is brought to you by Degree Deodorant. Grab the original Cool Rush at Walmart or Target today. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available in this and then episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus and President Select States, game prom call 1-800-GAMBORG, visit rg-help.com. Coming up, a ton of basketball, a whiff of UFC, a whiff of Yanis trades. Action Pack Pod next. This episode is brought to you by Verbo Private Vacation Rentals.

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We're also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network where I put up a new rewatchables for you on Monday night. We did close encounters of the third kind as part of big ass seventies week. Uh, it couldn't have gone better. I had a great time. You can watch it on the Ringer Moves YouTube channel. You can watch it as a video podcast on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, on FanDuel, on FanDuel Sportsbook, I am going to be doing another episode of

Tale or Fade, which I have won the last two weeks in a row. We're going to be doing Carl Anthony Towns under 24 and a half points. Uh, and you get a little 50% profit boost on that, all kinds of good stuff. So go check out FanDuel Sportsbook on Wednesday. Coming up on this podcast, gonna talk to Zach Lowe about game one, OKC Minnesota at the top. Gonna talk to Ariel Hawani and Sean Fantasy,

two long suffering Knicks fans who always come on this podcast to talk about the Knicks when things are going bad. So I thought it was only fair to bring them on when things are going good, but we had to balance that out with a guy whose team is going bad, Ben Thompson, who is gonna yell at me about my Yana Smobie trade idea

and tell me where Yana should actually go. So we got a lot going on in this podcast. Wanted to say RIP to George Wendt, who played Norm Peterson on Cheers and did a whole bunch of other good stuff too. He's a great SNL host, he was in a bunch of movies, but Norm became, I think, a big part of his legacy. Cheers was one of my favorite shows, um, ever.

I was, it was almost ready to say it was my favorite show ever, but I don't even know now that I'm older, it's hard, really hard to have a favorite show ever. Um, but you definitely have that top top list of most favorites, most, most shows you'd love the most. And I love Cheers so much. And I just thought, Norm, when you talk about the great supporting characters, which I think

is a little different than a star of a show. You think Seinfeld. Seinfeld was the star of Seinfeld, but I think George and Elaine were also stars. And then Kramer was, at least for the first few years, like the kind of supporting character sidekick and he was awesome. But there's, it's so hard to pull that off to thread the needle when you're not like

one of the biggest stars of the show, but you're still awesome. And Norm is like, I think the number one example of it. There's some other way, everybody has, it's generational, you know, the shows you would, would like for me it's the shows that I grew up watching the 70s and the 80s you're always gonna lean toward those and if somebody's younger than me maybe it's the 90s or 2000s if they're older than me maybe it's the 50s 60s but for me it was like Norm and Stanley Roper and Vinny

Barbarino there was There was all these supporting characters who just would crush it every time they came on television. And Norm was the best. And Norm was so good that there's long YouTube entrances of just all the times he would walk into the bar and have some joke off of Sam's thing. And then I thought it was notable that in the final episode, which is still the most watched TV show, I think of the last 40 years, it's like 80 million people watched it.

The last two minutes of the show are Norm and Sam, uh, closing down the bar for that night. And Norm has a poignant comment and he walks off and, um, there's a reason they did it that way. So when I think of the best, um, character guys in 30 minute shows, and it's him. It's not a long list, it really isn't. Mr. Roper from Three's Company I always loved, people that just, every time they were in a scene,

they owned it. And that's happening less or less now. When I know like everybody loves Raymond, I wasn't like a religious watcher at that show, but Brad Garrett's character I think was always like that. It's really, it's a hard needle to thread where you just come in and you kill it every time, but I really thought he was just amazing. So anyway, I was sad today. He died at 76. One of one of my favorite TV supporting actors and gave us one of the great characters

we've ever had in a sitcom. Anyway, RIP to him. Coming up, we're going to talk to Zach Lowe and let's bring in our friends from Pearl Jam. It is 8.13 Pacific time. Zach Lowe stayed up late tonight. I was kind of deep down hoping we were going to get a really fun timber wolves. Okay. See game one. And then for about a quarter and a half, it felt like we're heading that way. And then okay.

See, does the thing that they do from time to time where their defense just shifts. It's shape shifters. They just turn it up a different way. And then all of a sudden the game's over and you're like, what happened? How was this an 18 point game? It was just, they were just up by two a second ago and then all of a sudden the game's over and you're like, what happened? How is this an 18 point game? It was just, they were just up by two a second ago and that was it. So, I don't know, you take anything away from this

or is it just typical game one? Well, first of all, the Wolves are ahead by four points halfway through the third quarter. Mike Conley had a little flurry. Little flurry, Mike Conley hit a three. It was 60 to 56 with 7.22 left. But look, I said this before the series, I picked Thunder in six. Don't feel any better.

I guess I have to feel slightly better about that pick, but the bottom line is this, the most consistent unit, let's call it, left in the playoffs is Oklahoma City's defense every single night. They're going to be an absolute bear to score on them. No one has really found an answer at any point of the season. Denver did pretty well against them in the regular season. Spoiler alert, that did not last until playoffs, even with the best player in the world.

Yeah. Trying every trick he has, and they just reach a frenzy and you know, like Julius Randall posting up, it's just like, watch out, like, where's it, where's the hell, is there any help coming from? Is Lou Dorkin gonna pull the chair? Where are the arms? There are just arms everywhere. And, you know, look, uh, 17 turnovers doesn't sound that bad for Minnesota.

I mean, it's not great, but it doesn't sound that bad. 13 of those were steals and that plus a free throw margin that is even and or slightly an edge to Oklahoma City is just the wolves are dead on arrival against this defensive. Those stats trend that way. Yeah. It felt like this was the game about 30, 40 minutes in. It's like, all right, they're going to get this one if they're going to get a game. Right.

Everything's going well. Randall's playing out of his ass and, uh, okay. So he looked nervous and okay. So he looked a little tired from maybe that seven gamer. And it was interesting when Ken Rich Williams came in. Love it. Kenny hustle, baby. Unbelievable.

Like would he have been the fifth best nugget? Where do you have him ranked on nuggets? Could he have played 35 minutes a game for the nuggets? He's he was plus 19 and nine minutes made every shot that he took. Unbelievable. So when he did that, I'm like, is this a tactical move or did he extend the bench today because he was worried his team was a little worn out or what's going on? And did he lose faith in Caruso all of a sudden? And then Caruso came in and played one of the great stretches he's had in the

playoffs and that was that answered that question. Yeah. Caruso was making threes guarding Randall as I think one. I think everyone was reminded that oh, yeah He's gonna guard Randall when he guarded Jokic at the end of the series and Ken Rich Williams He's like a beloved guy there, you know for years they've been saying he's gonna be Nick Collison 2.0 for us He's just gonna be a lifer here. We love him. He's about all the right things Hadn't really done much in the playoffs in the real playoffs. I'm not going to count the Memphis series. Um, as a cool moment, he may not do much from here on out, but that's a big, that was a big stretch of basketball for him.

It was a cool moment. Was he had a big three too. So the things I was worried about heading into this game, what are we getting from Mike Conley who's old going against this gauntlet. You called on Sunday's pod or Monday's pod. You said you thought, okay, sees defenses now going way up there. I want to see it for four rounds because I, I, I, I'm still licking my wounds from jumping the gun with Minnesota last year when they look good in round two.

And all of a sudden I was comparing them to the 89 Pistons. So I'm just, I have the training wheels on for all defense takes in these playoffs, but I, you know, the bones are there. I think what makes them special is, is the different looks and how they can do the big and small, how they can put like, oh, we're just going to try to get a lot of steals line up. They, they have looks like a football team that I don't really remember seeing. I guess the, you know, you go back to the 89 Pistons and teams of that ilk that could kind of change their look, depending on what you had, they're on pace.

But what they did today is they do it over and over again. They just go in these runs and they're defense fueled, which is so unusual in the league, right? these runs and their defense fueled, which is so unusual in the league. Right. The runs that we usually have in the league are threes and, or somebody getting hot. This team can have runs based on steals and pressure and picking up guys at half court that one sequence. I know, you know what I'm about to say when Edwards was bringing the ball up.

And Caruso kind of jumped on them. And then he almost lost. He almost fell over for a back court just because of the pressure and then got it back and then just like launched a terrible three. Nobody else is doing that in the league. And I think that's what makes them special is they just throw things defensively. They're like, I've not seen that anywhere. Yeah.

They have, they have a couple every game where it's just, oh, the guy just either fell over along the sideline under pressure bringing the ball up or dribbled the ball off his foot or I don't quite know what happened. I have to watch the replay to see what went haywire here. But you mentioned different looks and, you know, I was talking about this before the series. We saw, I said it's going to be a safer series to play Chet as the only big guy on the floor. They were afraid to do it against Denver very much.

They did it a lot today. Hart and Sheen only played 20 minutes and Chet was awesome. I mean, it doesn't jump off the stat sheet, you know, 15-7-3. I just thought he made the kind of plays he needs to make on offense for them to win the championship, for them to win 16 playoff games. He's going to have to hit some threes. He had just won, but he was one of one. Some tough twos, some good takes around the basket. They have him guarding either McDaniels or a little bit Gobert, never Julius Randall. They're

like, we're just keeping you away from that matchup. He's going to bulldoze you. Yeah, he's saving your sternum and your ribs. We're going to preserve you as a help defender. And he's just everywhere. Like there was that one play where he had, he switched onto Devin Schenzo in the right corner because the wolves kind of moved around their office a little bit. And Devin Schenzo is like, cool, I'll just drive baseline and see what happens. And what happens is Chet's like, you're just going to eat the basketball for dinner. How's that? How does that feel? He was, he was awesome. And then we saw them close the game. I mean,

the game was already kind of closed, but with no bigs on the floor, they went to their sort of all wing, all guard, switch everything, good luck figuring this thing out, lineup, and they have a little bit more lineup flexibility, I think, in this series than they did against Denver. And look, Minnesota had 88 points, 88 points. And I think, I guess we gotta talk about the threes, right? 15 to 51.

53 is 88 points is never a good ratio. Hard to win in the NBA in 2025 when the other team takes 30 more threes than you and yet they won running away. And the tracking data nerds are already flagging it. They're already awaiting the second spectrum data tomorrow. Now did Minnesota underperform their expected shot variation

by, was this just a shot luck game? And I'll be interested to see what that data actually says because they missed some good ones. But man, they make you take, first of all, no defense is better at helping, making you think you're open and then flying back at you while another guy stunts at you. So at least there's like stuff happening in your line of sight.

And by the way, the guy flying at me has gigantic arms and he's really fast and he's like 23 years old and at the peak of his athleticism. And a lot of them watching in real time, and we're doing this right after the game, I haven't gone back and rewatched them yet. They felt like long threes and a lot like early in the shot clock threes and even the ones that are decent and 29 feet early in the shot clock threes and even the ones that are decent and 29 feet early in the shot clock are long and have the feel of like, well, I better shoot this one now because it's pretty good and we ain't getting anything better than

this. I'm letting it fly. And, you know, I thought for the most part, a lot of those threes were like decently contested. And for a lot of this game, it was Minnesota missing tough threes and Oklahoma City missing tough twos and I think what should scare Minnesota a little bit is Oklahoma City started getting easier twos and making more of the twos as the game went on. Right well if you're Minnesota the one thing you're gonna come out of the game is we have to get a better whistle on these SGA calls.

Oh they were furious the whole game. I mean, they were furious going into the game, which is always kind of a bad sign. If you're already on edge about it, it feels like you're, you just gotta chill out a little bit, except that it's gonna be bad. But yeah, Dill, I'm sure some clips will be sent to the league office between games one and two. Deservedly.

Look, I tweeted this in real time and I never tweet during games usually, but I just thought Shay and I don't care. I didn't, I didn't bet on the game. I didn't really care who won. I just hope we have a long, fun series. But I feel like Shay is getting this whistle that nobody else in the playoffs is getting where there's little touch fouls or these bumps where you're not even sure who initiated the bumps and he's just getting it.

And I think with Minnesota, you can see this, you saw it in the Laker series, you saw in the last series. McDaniels can just have four or five fouls immediately and you don't even know what happened. And when, when he has fouls, I think Minnesota is a different team because he's kind of, he's their swing guy. Every team has a swing guy. I feel like he's their swing guy. And once you put foul trouble on him and he's not as, uh, not as aggressive, it's, then it comes down to like his aunt or, you know, are the threes going to go in or his aunt going to go nuts? The bench guys were also really bad.

And there's a, there's officially a Nas read storyline that's developed where he's been bad for three weeks now, where he hasn't looked like this guy, like when they, when they really got hot, when Randall was out, I think it was like February range and he was like 20 to 25 a night and you know, seven, eight rebounds a game. And was like really impactful. I don't think he's figured out how to impact the team now that Randall is looking like Randall. And today he was one for 11, obviously,

it's about as bad as it's gonna get. But you do that, Alexander Walker's three for 11, and Dante was three for 14. They're not really built to survive three shit bench games, right? On the road. Five of 28 on threes combined for those three guys. First of all, 28 threes for three bench guys. That's almost an accomplishment in and of

itself. Like you're almost having three bench guys take 10 threes of these. And you said that about nine. Even Missoula is like, I don't know. That's a lot. I thought I thought Missoula would be like in the jungles of the Amazon by now. He probably is. He doesn't have cable right now. He has no cable, no streaming right now. You know, you said that about Naz Reed

and it seemed like a little unfair to me because in my head, I mean, it's been a while since the wolves played in my head. I'm like, he's had some pretty good games. I'm looking back, last three games against Golden State, all single digits. First like, he's had some pretty good games. I'm looking back, last three games against Golden State, all single digits. First two, he had 30 combined, and then two single digit games against the Lakers.

A really good game won, which maybe is the one that's sticking in my head. But since then, very quiet, very quiet. And win or lose this series and whatever. Obviously, Minnesota and their new ownership is gonna have some big financial decisions to to make and he's a big one. Hmm. I didn't realize we were going there already. No, we're not. We're not. I'm just saying you brought it up. There's no free agents, but there's also no cap space.

And he's such a legend there and deservedly so. Like the just people just screaming Nasrid in the streets and holding the Nasrid towels. I hope he stays there forever. But look, I think Minnesota will work their way into this series, but this game was, um, not a, not the start you were hoping for it. Could you come out of this like, Oh geez, man, with this is going to be tough to score enough against these guys. It exacerbated all the things I was worried about, which is ball handling, Conley's age, the fact that they don't really have a backup point guard, that

it seems like Edwards is going to have to have the ball a lot. And I think, okay, see, he was ready for that, especially in the second half. You could see like, oh, you're going to have Edwards bring it up. We're going to actually make it really difficult for him. And okay. See with the, especially at home with the ability to snap this, snap the switch for four minutes. I'm worried for Minnesota.

Um, cause I'm trying to think what's the roadmap for them to be awesome in this series when you think how bad okay. See played for the first half of this game basically for them. And then they still win the game easily. Um, I guess it starts with Edwards. It was only 18 points. Um, typical like weird feeling it Edwards. It was only 18 points. Um, typical, like weird feeling it out. He does this sometimes.

He didn't, there was a Laker game like this too. There was the first game of the warrior series where it's like this. It's almost like a feel out game, but it lasts the whole game. And then the game's over and they lost, but I would assume he's going to come out way more aggressive. I, you know, you do have to remind yourself all the time. Don't overreact to game one, even if it, even, and maybe especially if it confirms to your expectations about how the series would go, cause then your

tendency is to really overreact to it. Um, roadmap number one is hit four more threes. If you're going to take 50 and that, that does a lot of the work for you. But I will continue to 19, 20. Yeah. I'll continue to say this. Like if they lose the turnover, if they lose the live ball turnover battle like that, because Oklahoma City had 12 turnovers,

only five of those were steals. So that's what I say, 13 steals to five steals. If they lose that battle that badly and they don't win the free throw battle by a significant margin, they're just not gonna win games. There's just no math that's going to help them win games. But step one is the threes. The ant thing.

Like grade the ant. What, what grade would you give ant this game? He does have games like this where like he has moments and first of all, I thought for him D plus. Wow. For him, not D plus across the board for him. What do you want more of? What did you, what did you see that concerned you?

Swagger. I want, I want, yo, we're playing the best team in the league and I'm in their house and I'm stealing this game from them. I didn't feel that at all in this game. Now he did get hurt in the first, in the first half. And I don't know if that tweaked whatever was going on and on Randall also had a huge first half, so maybe you back off, but, um, he's got to win this swagger battle with this.

That this you beat. Okay. See by it's, it sounds stupid and it's the opposite of second spectrum. And I liked your second spectrum voice that you broke out by the way, the your nerdy second spectrum. It's like, you know, I always tell people like, I said it about the self except for game, game one and game two against the next Hang the hang the shot quality championship banner. Congratulations. You had better shot quality

You're you're down to oh in the series you get nothing for that. Yeah, I think for him He's got to be talking shit. He's got to feel like He's the off on the court. I didn't feel that at all in this game Randall ironically was the one that was starting to carry himself that way. And it was interesting to watch, okay, so he swing there, everything they were doing defensively to try to just kind of take him out. I mean, the Caruso piece of this, I was thinking how, as you know, I always want more awards

because I think we need stuff to commemorate the season well after the fact and be like, oh, that was the season when this happened and this happened and this happened. If we had a role player, the playoffs award, it feel like Caruso would be like minus 700 on Fandl to take it at this point. He to watch somebody guard Randall, Edwards and Jokic well in a 48 hour span. Who else is doing that? Who else is in the, does it have to be a bench guy? Like is Josh Hart in the conversation?

Is Andrew Nemhart in the conversation? Those guys are other leaders. You have to think of it like it's, it's a movie poster and it can't be somebody who would be one of the two or three faces in the movie poster or in the, like the TNT that when they're doing the commercial for the game somebody who would be one of the two or three faces in the movie poster or in the, like the TNT. When they're doing the commercial for the game, it would be weird if they were in the game. Like Julius Randall is not eligible. He's. Aaron Gordon too good for that.

I think he is because if you're doing the nuggets movie poster, it's the three guys. Right. So it'd be Christian Brown in that case would be your role. Nuggets movie poster is just Jokic sitting on the bench looking sad as the lead is frittered away. They always cut to him. It was the, first it was the Nico Harrison in the crowd cut when anything bad would happen

and then it became the Jokic on the bench camera cut. When he's looking up and it's like, oh, there's 11 minutes and 10 seconds left in the fourth quarter, I probably can't come back yet. They wanted, they, they told me they wanted me to get to nine minutes. How did that? Oh God, Russ just turned the ball over again. Oh, now it's 10 50.

Let's talk. Can we talk a little more about ant? Yeah. So like the simplest explanation for why Oklahoma city is, is very difficult to play against is if you're an, and you have the ball at the top of the top of the arc, like what, what direction are you going against this defense? There's no easy Mark to go at. I thought at the beginning of the game, he was starting to get traction in the

go bear pick and roll just like, like not softest part of the defense, but just, I can always get a big guy, like get Hardenstein up, up the floor and like, maybe I can get around him or there's a pocket pass to go bear or something. And then go barely ends up playing 20 minutes. They play Chet at center quite a bit. When Isaiah Joe was on the floor and really wanted to go at them and they couldn't get that switch. Like the Thunder were really good at hedging, recovering and like you take that out of it

and it's like, I don't know where to go and you could try Shea, but Ant has not really developed like the sort of back to the basket, um, bully ball game that I think he'd like. I mean, he and I talked about it three, four years ago in a phone interview. He would like to do that and it just hasn't,'s just that there's just not a lot of places to pick at whereas I thought the Thunder Gradually were like Shay was like, okay Particularly when go Bears off the floor. I can get someplace against Randall I can attack Nas Reed's feet in the pick and roll like I got play

It's not great. Like this is a really good defensive team, too But I got things I can do and and is still figuring out kind of where he wants to poke at and I think he's gonna Have a game where he finds the right the right places and stuff starts to open up for him Maybe part of it is like like he likes to go one-on-one He's an incredible one-on-one player and he can beat almost anybody one-on-one and He had a couple of those in this game But again, it's like if it's case and Wallace or somebody like that, like that's no picnic and they're going to pick you a lot of the time too.

Yeah. Case and Wallace was in there for a little bit and you okay. Say it was that's two guys you just completely forgot were on the team and then they're just kicking ass for three straight minutes. I think the thing though, Casey seems like they love is if somebody is going straight up one on one. Almost like the old school one forward. And it's like, I'm going to go one-on-one beat a guy and just try to get to the basket. They're like, great, please try that.

We're we're ready in so many different ways. It seems like you got to attack them on the sides with angles. Cause I feel like the Celtics fell into the same kind of issues with Tatum when it would go bad, when it was always like him 40 feet from the basket straight ahead versus when they would put him on the left or the right and he could kind of veer toward the paint and decide like what to do off the dribble. I always felt like he was better. Maybe that's what they're going to have to do with Edwards. I thought they found something in the first half of the Go Bear pick and rolls and then

they just stopped. There was a play in the second half where I don't remember exactly. It was an ant pick and roll maybe with go bear and he got case and Wallace on his hip and got him trapped kind of behind him and then snaked it. So he changed directions and it looked like he was going to have a driving lane to the right and that if go bear was the screener, let's just say go bear was going to seal off everyone on the other side of the floor and Caruso just ran in from the right corner off Alexander Walker and Ant was like, oh my god, okay, I'll kick the ball to

Alexander Walker and in real time I thought they had switched and then I rewatched it and it was like no Caruso just ran all the way back to Alexander Walker, contested the three so Alexander Walker had to pump, put the ball on the floor for one dribble, rise up for a three, and then here comes Kason Wallace coming at me, and it was like a decent three, but it's an example of, Ant just couldn't get an easy feel for,

there's a clear path to the rim and I'm taking it, and then they're just flying at you and making you take some decent threes, some bad threes. So there's a great, I mean, look, it's not breaking news. They're an awesome defensive team. Yeah. Well, the problem if you're the other team that's playing whoever the favorite,

you kind of have to win game one. I feel like to pull off an upset. The Thunder were 68 and 14 this season. They're eight and three in the playoffs. Now you have to beat them four to six times, basically to send them packing. And that includes winning, um, at least one game on the road, right. And I guess game seven on the road, just a tall task. I thought this was the game they had to steal, especially. Okay.

See, definitely seem tired that first half. Randall's playing great. This is the game you probably take. So I don't, I don't really know in terms of tweaks. I feel like it's going to be easier for OKC to tweak this and use the, you know, the last quarter and a half to their advantage. Hey, we worked with FanDuel long hours trying to figure out a great idea for the NBA playoffs. And we stumbled into a really good one that we've been doing for the last

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Um, are you ready to wrap your head around? Okay. See actually winning the title. I know we, I know they're the favorite all year. I know we've talked about it, prepared for it. They were an incredible regular season, but they still seem so young to me when I'm watching it, it just seems like they're going to win this. And it still feels like they have their future ahead of them, which is

a really unusual place for a champion to be, you know what I mean? I mean, you, you, you, you, you cautioned me to not, you know, we already talked about Nas Reed's free agency and then you're like, are we going to talk about, okay, so he's already won the title. Seven wins away now and it doesn't, I feel like Denver might've been the best chance to beat them. Well, I think we do that. Even as limited as that team was.

When they, when they beat Denver and it's always hard to go through a proven champion with the best player, when they beat Denver and it's always hard to go through a proven champion with the best player. When they beat Denver, they were very clearly like the, the betting, the solid favor to win the championship tonight only reinforced that, but there are still seven wins to go and three tough teams and a lot of randomness health stuff, who knows what could pop up, but yeah, I mean, I picked them to make the finals this year. I thought I picked Boston over Oklahoma city is my is my so I'm not

surprised and it doesn't feel premature to me in part because You know they they had people kind of like like Sometimes talk as if last season's playoff run was so crushingly disappointing and so short That was a real like like the New Orleans series in the first round was a walkover, but Dallas was a team that ended up making the finals

with two generationally elite ball handlers and a lot of sides and a lot of problems. And like they had to problem solve at a high level. They failed, they lost the series, but it was a very close series. Easily could have gone seven, easily could have gone the other way. Like that was real playoff experience.

And then they completely like the heart and steam Caruso double dip completely changes their team in a lot of different ways and they're, they're, they're ready for this. It sure feels like it. They Denver thing really put some chest hair on them. And I was talking to some people yesterday about the Denver game. I don't, obviously they didn't break Jokic,

he's incredible, but it was interesting to watch him run out of solutions. And I potted right afterwards with Versillo, but I was still thinking about the game after. When they just weren't able to get him the ball. It's unbelievable. For long swaths of the game, you know, and and finally yokage like He really didn't shoot them. I think he had 17 points at halftime. He might have finished with 20

I Felt like they broke the nuggets a little bit in that game. That's another team It's not just that you're you know, I have a chance to win the title. You're also leaving wreckage of teams behind. I don't know what happens to that Denver team going forward or what the moves are, how you fix kind of this nucleus that feels like it's just not going to be good enough anymore. Um, but that's, that's a piece of it. And it goes back to what something I talked about on Sunday and you've talked

about in your pot too, is it feels, it feels like there's some sort of shift this season that we're moving into the second half of the decade, literally. And all of the teams that mattered the first half of the decade for the most part are going by the wayside. And now we have this new kind of new crop of teams that are just going to be in our lives. The question for me is whether Minnesota can stay there with the tax stuff regardless of what happens in this year.

So they're going to be able to pay Nasri. Do they have the pockets to do that? Um, how are they going to handle Randall if he ops out? Which I think he, there's a chance he might. I mean, if that's all, well, it's all going to be, I mean, he'll know if he, if he opts out, he'll know he's opting out for something better than opting in. I don't want, I still want to talk about Minnesota counters and what else they can do. I don't want to be, I don't want to go this far.

This is too, this is too far for me. This is, this is why we're talking it out. Uh, offensive rebounding. There was a moment where it felt like, oh, they're going to be able to kind of bully this team on the glass and then it faded away. I think we got to see more of that. I was surprised. I think they only played one possession of zone in the whole game. And it felt like it was more to protect Jayden McDanieldaniels or maybe jaden mcdaniels got taken out right

before i thought that was going to be something they went to a little bit more particularly after watching denver kind of trouble them a little bit with the zone yeah i wonder if they're just like we don't want to play that card right away in game one we want to see what our man-to-man defense can do um you know those are a couple of things they go bear, go bear two points, three rebounds. It's just, it's just gotta be like 12 points, 14 rebounds. Eight of those rebounds are offensive rebounds.

Like if he's going to play and they're going to win, it's got to be something like that. They did something with him. He did the drive down the middle where it seems like he's going to do a scoop shot and then he just whips it out to the side. And I forget which OKC player was like, you're passing into the corner. And just stood there and took the ball and the pass.

Do you think Minnesota's like the guys on the bench have like had training sessions about, okay, guys, when Rudy starts to do that, you can't start laughing. You can't like hide. You've got to just like stare straight ahead. When he passes up a two foot layup for a kick out to the corner. All right. So you think more go bare. Just more, they got to get something out of him.

The three point luck has to change. Ant goes way more Alfie. Shay doesn't get the same calls. McDaniels is able to actually stay in the court and be McDaniels. I think that's the recipe. I still don't know if it's enough. I mean, I thought Thunder and Six,

so I don't think it's all going to be enough, but... That's what I had, too. I thought Minnesota would get two wins somehow. I don't know where they're coming from now. Five just feels, for a team that is, is what eight and two in the playoffs coming into this and made the conference finals last year, five just feels like they've earned a little bit more respect than that. And seven felt too much.

Seven felt like that's, that's too many. I'm going six. So quickly on Randall, I was looking up cause I was bored once that game got out of hand, I was looking at Randall's weird career. You know, he's averaging for his career, 19 and nine. And I looked up how many guys have played 700 plus games in average, 19 and nine. What do you think the number is? Number of players in the history of the NBA.

19 and nine, 19 points, nine rebounds a game. That's it. 700 games. 700 games? 700 games. Yeah. 62. 23. Oh my God.

Yeah. That's it. Yoke edge bird, Yannis, wilt Elgin. Pretty, pretty good start. C web Charles, broccoli, Randall, Kareem, Carl Malone, Bob Lanier, Tim Duncan, Bob Pettit, Anthony Davis, a lot. Nine is a lot. Shaq David Robinson, Hakeem, Walt Malone, Bob Lanier, Tim Duncan, Bob Pettit, Anthony Davis. I guess nine is a lot. Nine is a lot. Shaq, David Robinson, Hakeem, Walt Bellamy, Bob McAlew, Patrick Ewing, Elvin Hayes,

Spencer Haywood, and Moses Malone. That's like an incredible list. Multiple Hall of Famers, guys, multiple guys who are in the top 20 all time. And then if you go that same list where 3.5 assists a game that then that list goes down to 10. Are you making a Julius Randall Hall of Fame case right now? Is that what you're doing? I gotta say, I did not realize I kind of given up on rando as like a real asset, but I've

been so impressed with him in the playoffs that it's making me re-evaluate. Like, did I get something wrong? Did he get better? Was he this good the whole time? I have Knicks fans in my life. Some of them are like, couldn't stand watching them. And then others are like, the guy was awesome for us. 24 and 10 every night, four assists, five assists.

Guy's a warrior. And he's just, I don't know how it happened, but he's probably the most polarizing guy in the league, right? For, for the discourse, how far it's gone in different directions. Should we pitch a documentary on, um, the kind of, uh, post-Coby pre-LeBron Lakers, all of whom become like characters around like Randall, Randall, D-Lo, Josh Hart's flying around. Don't forget for Glopez. Well I'm talking about like the young guys Brandon Ingram, Jordan Clarkson there's like a Nick Young, D'Angelo Russell

subplot in there Iggy Azalea is involved if I said if I said her name right. So you're saying the year before. Larry Nance Jr. just like the yeah the youth movement that LeBron kind of came in was like yeah yeah, I'm publicly like, yeah, I'm curious. Like these guys are all interesting. And then it was like, can we just trade all of them immediately like one, but Kuzma, Kuzma is another one. They're all like these characters scattered across the league now.

Lakers fans were so excited about that team. Luke Walden was the coach. And there was a moment, there were moments where it was like, maybe this could be a team. Like maybe this could grow into something like a, like not a great team, but like a 49 win team one year or something fun and homegrown. And now they're just like a bomb went off and they're just scattered everywhere.

They had the number two pick. Lonzo, Lonzo, Lonzo's in there. I know. I'm about to give you that, that Lonzo was on there. Thomas Bryant. He's in the playoffs right now. KCP, Caruso, Jordan Clarkson, Chning Frye, Josh Hart, Brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma, Brooke Lopez, Larry Nance, Gary Payton, and Zubats.

All had minutes on the 2018 Lakers. Now some of them left during the season with trades, but, um, yeah, I, the Caruso piece of it, first of all, that he was in the G league nine years ago, that picture of him and Mark Dagdahl is unbelievable. Them and the G league together. It's just like an unbelievable photo. But uh, the fact that it just took this long for him to be fully appreciated, like he's being in these playoffs when it probably should have happened in 2020.

All the stuff he was doing then. I still love that trade for both teams. I think Giddy for Caruso is one of the most fun trades of the last five, six years. Perfect trade for both teams. All the stuff Caruso is doing on OKC is wasted on a 41 and 41 Bulls team. Like this is where he should be. Good trade.

If that, like, no, I, I look, I, I didn't like it for the Bulls as much as you did, but I also thought the Bulls got too much flack for that trade. If that, like, no, I, I, look, I, I didn't like it for the Bulls as much as you did, but I also thought the Bulls got too much flack for that trade. But Caruso is doing this on the highest level of professional basketball. For the Bulls to end up in three years saying, hey, that trade worked out just as well for us. Giddy is going to have to do some of this stuff on like a really high level of basketball and not like, it's cool that you average 28 and eight in March and April when half the East

is tanking and like, that's cool. I'm not saying it's meaningless. Like he shot the three well this year, but it's gotta happen with some real stakes at some point. Yeah, I agree with that. And in the East, Hey Bill, like, apologies to the Boston thing, the Milwaukee thing, like, hey, could be next year, Bulls could be four or five series next year, who knows? Well, that's the case. Ben Thompson's coming up later because I had to bring him on to yell at me about my Yanis for Mowgli trade. What was your take on that trade, by the way?

Well, my first take was the same one that Bobby Marks had, which was I'm pretty sure like this is way more complicated than that. Yeah, it was a theoretical. And then my second trade was I think Cleveland would just reflexively recoil from it because Mobly is seven years or eight years younger or whatever it is than Janice.

Six and a half. Six and a half. And then my third thought was, should they, should they just reflexively recoil? Like what is Mobley's and I love Mobley. You and you and I both are super high on Mobley. It's probably going to make second team all NBA and kind of deservedly. I think.

And defensive player of the year. Yeah. Um, I just, I just, but Yanis is Yanis and Mitchell, Mitchell Garland Yanis makes more sense than Shen Gun Thompson Yanis or like, like, but, but I just think in the end, I'm a little bit more risk averse trading young for aging. It's the same reason I never got so excited about Durant

coming to Boston. But I think if their instinct, and I believe that it probably would be, is to just recoil in horror at the idea of trading unremovably, I think they need to at least sort of tamp that down and really think it through and what does it look like and what is the cost at least. Boogie Cousins was on some show today saying that he thought

Dallas should trade the Cooper flag pick for Durant. Which I thought was bold. Cause he said Dallas's window is right now. I feel like you're trying to bait me into. I'm not trying to bait you. I'm just passing along information. I will respectfully disagree with DeMarx Cousins. I saw the clip.

I don't think, I mean, I don't disagree. He's right about the window and what Nico Harrison is publicly said about the window, which is, which is why you aim it at Yanis and not Kevin Durant. I think if you're going to, if you're going to do that, and I don't think they should do it either way. I'm keeping flag. Yeah. Thanks anyway, everybody.

Thank you. Thank you for all your offers. I'll be keeping, I'll be keeping flag. I guess. Yeah. Thanks anyway, everybody. Thank you. Thank you for all your offers. I'll be keeping, I'll be keeping flag. I guess, yeah, even Mobley, I just, flag's still 18. And he's gonna come in. He's, by the way, yeah, you don't watch college basketball. He's going to be your favorite player. I've watched my, I've done my YouTube

and I've watched a couple of Duke games because they got far in the tournament. I enjoyed, I enjoyed Duke's. He checks a lot of boxes on the Zach scale. I'll tell you that I enjoyed Duke's Final Four collapse against Who do they do they collapse against? Auburn Houston one of those Houston Houston great great time great time Yeah for any red-blooded American who did you have in Nick's Pacers out of curiosity Nixon seven? Nixon seven you have Pac Nick's Pacers out of curiosity? Nixon seven. Nixon seven. You have Pacers in four, I assume? No, I have either Pacers in six or

Nick's in seven. I think it's one of those two outcomes. I think it goes at least six. Any other pick than that, or I guess Pacers in seven if he's thinking of winning on the road, any pick feels too short. that feels like it should be. Just an awesome. So I'm going to game one tomorrow at the garden. I can't wait. You're going. I just want to soak it in. I just want to, I just want to feel it and hear it.

And how early are you going to get there? I mean, I'll get there. If it's an eight o'clock tip, I think they'll let us in at five 30. Um, so I'll get there at five20. Don't stand next to Windhorst. Just try to be like, or defend Windhorst if anyone comes at him, use some karate. That still made me mad. Well, look, the Knicks fandom is awesome,

and I'm like, go off. It's been 25 years, you wanna flood the streets. It's my favorite city in the world. I lived there for 18 years. You wanna go crazy, but like, someone tweeted today like, I don't know where the line is on this kind of stuff. The line is like throwing stuff at people

and shoving them and punching them. It's pretty easy. You can shout anything you want. The stuff they did to the Pacers fan that Halliburton is flying out to Indiana, it's like, that's a pretty, that's a pretty clear line. Like taunt, talk your shit, but like, don't hit people or throw stuff at them.

We know where the lines are. Well, we'll see. We have some Knicks fans coming up after you. There's a Jalen Brunson moment lurking right now that could take on Joe Namath winning the third Super Bowl ever in proportions, if he could actually pull it off. He's eight minutes away. Did you, did you ever see any version of this with the Knicks where they could

actually like win the title? They were pretty massive underdogs in that Celtic series. Do you see it was like the fifth biggest upset of the 21st century in basketball? That series. I mean, I've, I've always been higher on this Knicks team and even last season's Knicks team, I said was the biggest threat to the Celtics in the East, even if Philly were healthy, even if Milwaukee had been healthy, I would have thought that.

Um, I just thought Boston was a terrible matchup for them. And I was shocked at how. I think, you know, you put Tibbs on the hot seat before the playoffs and I understood why you did it. I think he deserves a ton of credit for the job he's done this year on both ends of the floor and that series against, against Boston and the way that they. Stretch their, their scheme and their style into places that were not really familiar for them and part of their A game. I think it was an awesome performance, top to bottom, but I was shocked how easily they solved their Boston problem.

There's been some pretty crazy Celtics losses during this Tatum Brown era. You know, like game seven Cleveland 2018 when they missed, I think every three they took or it felt like it. That was all gravy though, Wasn't it for you? I know, but it's just, it was one, I think, I think it's still one of the four worst three point shooting performances in the history of the playoffs. That was back to back days with the rockets missing 27 and a row. That was another one of the worst ones ever. Um, the 2022 that game four, when Steph just levitated above the game, the game

seven, 23 against Miami when Tatum gets levitated above the game. The game seven, 23 against Miami, when Tatum gets hurt a minute into the game. Right. Explainable though, right? Explainable. Yeah. But I'm just saying like, just like, holy shit losses. The earlier losses in that series were worse. They were comparable to games one and two

against New York this year. Right. And then game one and two, and I don't even know those games are just gonna be lumped together in Celtics history. It's not like, oh one and two. And I don't even know those games are just going to be lumped together in Celtics history. It's not like, Oh, game two. It's like, just those two together. We'll be discussed like just how do you lose two games a row at home to start a series down 20, but I did feel, and I said this to you in the next segment,

I really did feel like the Knicks played the best I've seen them play all year in the second half of game four and then all game six. Like that, that was like the full potential of whatever this team is. Plus they finally have a bench, even though it's two people. Well, Bridges has, has become the player that they traded for in terms of just what he's doing. McBride started making shots and Robinson being this healthy, mobile monster, like completely changes

their team for 15 to 20 minutes a game. It's those that those three variables alone are a big, big deal. The other stuff is pretty. He was eye-openingly available for months during the season. Robinson. I'm kind of surprised nobody tried to scoop them up, but I think he, from an injury standpoint, I think, I think he just had this thing to him. It's like, what am I, it's almost like where Rob Williams was after a while with the injuries.

Very like, I just, is he going to play? It's going to have any, how many games that are on my getting. Now it's only, it's only gotten worse for Time Lord and the Blazers, which is how those things typically go. But yeah, long way to go. Before we go, last question. Um, cause I'm already in trade mode and draft mode as, cause now we only have one game a day, there's more stuff to think about. Is there a team you feel like could be a holy shit trade team that we're not talking about enough yet? It's funny because-

Is there a team you're on watch with out of the 30? One of my plans for Thursday, my Thursday episode is I'm having another guest on. We're each going to pick our three. Have we discussed this team enough off-season teams? So this is like right up my... Okay so we'll tee that up for Thursday. No no but I want to pick a team now. I mean I don't want to pick an obvious one like Milwaukee or even Memphis. We've talked about a lot. No, no, no.

Yeah. I'm saying a little bit of a zag. I've got my eyes on Atlanta and Sacramento. They just feel like teams that are just sizzling with, we both kind of like parts of where we're headed and especially Atlanta, but also we just like, we both kind of like parts of where we're headed, and especially Atlanta, but also we just like, we just fired our, like the Hawks just fired their GM, Landry Fields, and Sacramento had this turnover. The DeRozans, I just, both of them feel just like ripe for, why,

wait, why'd they do that? Okay, maybe, I don't know, those are just two. You got, you got one on the brain. Give me, I know you got one on the brain. So let me let me hear yours You're gonna laugh It was Atlanta Really? Yeah, I had somebody

Ask me cuz they've he's heard some of the honest content we've done on different pods Oh boy, and he was like, why isn't Atlanta in the honest combo? And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, well Why isn't Atlanta in the Yanis combo? And I was like, what do you mean? And he's like, well, Jaylen Johnson's awesome. He's on their team. He just got hurt. Everyone forgets that he didn't play the second half of the year, but as a center piece of a trade, that's a really good centerpiece.

You know, they have, they're, they don't have their next couple picks, but they have picks later and it would be pretty easy for them to put something together and basically turn it into Trey and Yannis and keep Giannis in the East. And I look, I wasn't saying it was going to happen, but he was, the question was why wouldn't Atlanta take a swing? They don't have their picks anyway. I'm looking at, I didn't hate it. Um, I mean, I think if you're the Bucs, it's gotta be, well, what else is there

for us other than Jalen Johnson, who I love and I think if you're the Bucks, it's gotta be, well, what else is there for us other than Jalen Johnson, who I love and I believe is from Wisconsin. He's the front of it. Yeah, but what's the- But there's way more in the trade than Jalen Johnson. So what's the way more? Because they owe some picks. They have the Lakers pick and they have an extra pick

from, it's like the second best of New Orleans and Milwaukee in their own pick. They're missing their next couple, right? Yeah, they have, they, they, the next three drafts, this one and the next two are controlled by the spurs. Um, the next one's a swap with the spurs, but they own 20, 29, 30, 31. And then they have an extra bucks to New Orleans pick. And they asked I have Reese's shea.

If you wanted to get excited there. That feels like the rubber meets the road piece in any, in, in that discussion you've been getting like a little bit off the ground is research. So if it's Jalen Johnson research, all their remaining picks, I think Milwaukee has to sit down and think about it. And that's an offer that teams can beat, but it's an offer that's like, you got to beat it's not, it's not a nothing offer for sure. Jalen, I love Jalen Johnson.

But I thought the same thing with Atlanta where it's, they had some upheaval. They're kind of a no man's land. Why not? If he's available, they've done weird shit before. I'll tell you what mitigates against that though, is like how fucking bad the East is, like it's really easy to talk yourself into a world where Atlanta just stands, Pat re-signs Laverte does nothing all that interesting and is like, why can't we go 52 and 30 next year and be the third seat in the East and like

still have some stuff to do. That's the case for Milwaukee. To not do it. To do, to do. Maybe we keep Yanis. Maybe we're just a 50 win team by default in the East. Yeah.

With Yannis. The difference is Yannis has tasted the championship and understands that the window is shrinking, the time window is shrinking and Trey has, and the Hawks have tasted the conference finals and everyone kind of, you know, wrote that one off and his then is just been swimming in the play and just playing, playing. They should name the plan after the Hawks at this point. Hawks in the heat. It's like a guaranteed playing game every year. I wish Miami had one more guy because there's a bam in all your picks for Giannis type of

framework that I think would work, but it just puts Giannis in the same situation as in now. Exactly. At least the Hawks one, at least you can say, well, he's going to another, whatever you want to call Trey, perennial all-star, semi-perennial all-star, couple-time all-star, and he fits well with Giannis. Hero's a one-time all-star, and everyone is like,

really? I don't think, I mean, San Antonio has a ton of picks, but I don't think, I said this to Ben later, I'm sorry I'm stepping on a segment that's coming later, but I just don't, if I'm honest, I'm not getting traded unless I'm guaranteed I'm gonna be one of the best four teams, which is why going back to Cleveland, that's why the Moby thing made sense to me.

So it's like, if he gets traded there, Moby is the guy coming back. I now know I'm the favorite in the East and I'm okay. I'll prove in that trade at that point, but I guess we'll see. All right. Thursday, you're talking, uh, coming off the next game that you're going to go to and then doing some, uh, some of this, some of this stuff, who's going to do some crazy stuff. Let's go.

Maybe some end of the year, Greenwich high school, uh, varsity sports wrap up. Oh God. Swim team wrap. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. No. How'd GHS do this year?

Uh, swimming, we kicked butt. Uh, the coach is pretty awesome. Uh, at other sports, I don't, I don't know. I don't follow. I'm glad the swim team is still good. All right. Zach Lowe. Good to see you as always. Always fun. Build your credit history. Stop wishing money management was simple because with Coho it already is.

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All right, so listen, I've talked a lot about the Knicks on this podcast, really since I've had it in 2007, and I brought in a bunch of people on, two of them are here today, but I just wanted to say, you know, Sean Fantasy, Ariel Hwani, a lot of times when I brought you in, it's usually, it's out of a moment of sadness or like there's faint hope, but it's not really

going to work out the right way, but it's, it's usually somebody, one of you being sad and this is very happy time for the Knicks Eastern conference finals starts tomorrow. You've beaten the defending champion, Boston Celtics, and I thought it was only fair to invite you both on Sean's got like a golf tan sunburn thing going. You've just like lost your mind. Mission impossible is coming out. Ari looks the happiest I've ever seen him. This is so, I don't know, Sean, you go first. Well, ding dong, the witch is dead. RIP Boston bill. I haven't said it to you one time in

days. I haven't said a damn thing and I'm happy to well one, thank you for having me. Thank you for having Ariel. Thank you for giving us this platform. You've given me a lot of platforms over the years and I'm grateful to you, but honestly we just kicked Boston's ass man. That was amazing. That was genuinely beautiful. Like I, I never in my wildest dreams thought they were gonna win that series. Ariel, I think you're a much more positive fan than I am. I'm a cynic to the core. I've been burned by this team dozens and dozens of times.

And this series was magical. And this week is extraordinary. And I don't wanna hear a damn word about guys over celebrating a second round victory because we haven't been there in a quarter century. And that was an incredibly meaningful moment for the franchise, for the fan base, and for a team that had lacked a signature moment all season. And this series was clearly to this point their signature moment.

So I'm just elated. I'm thrilled and I'm super excited about this year's The Pacers. I'll just add amen to all of that and kudos to you, Bill, because I think a lot of people would have said you wouldn't have two Knicks fans on. And certainly some of my friends were like, is Bill going to have you on? I'm like, look, you reached out to me. I didn't reach out to you. I don't like being that fan. I don't like rubbing it in.

But golly, I'm happy to be here. I am delighted to be here. That was one of the... so I went to game six. I was teetering, obviously the tickets, and I bought my tickets, no comps here. I'm not that kind of celebrity, certainly not on your level. So I can't get in there with, you know, Chalamet and Bad Bunny, but I remember exactly

where I was in 1999 when we clinched at home to go to the NBA finals, when we beat the Indiana Pacers. I know exactly where I was in 2000 when Ewing dunked over Mourning, the last trip to the Eastern Conference Finals. And I said to myself, that kid, that 17 year old would have done anything. He would have walked from his house in Montreal

to Madison Square Garden to be here. I have to figure out a way to be there. And I'm so happy I got to go with my two kids because it was the greatest sporting event that I've ever been to in my life. And I've been lucky to be to some. It was a three hour party, Bill. It was a three hour freaking party.

It was unlike anything because there was no tension. There was no stress. We hadn't had one of those games yet in the playoffs. Lord knows we didn't have a lot of those wins throughout the season. And from the jump, you know, at one point, I think it was like seven, five Boston, and that was it. You know, Jaylen hit a couple of shots,

and that was it. It was a party, and just I was able to look at everything. And I told my kids, this hasn't happened in 25 years. They're 13 and 11, Oliver and Walter. I said, look at all this. Take this all in. This doesn't happen. Don't take this for granted.

And then we had to walk through the crowd, which, you know, I know we have to walk through the crowd, which I know everyone has their take on the crowd, but I thought everyone was well behaved. It was awesome. We'll never forget it. And I honestly wish that the Eastern Conference finals were starting on Saturday

because I still need like five more days to revel in all the highlights, all the videos about that win over the Celtics because I don't want this feeling to go away. Sean, you want the feeling to go away? Are you ready to play some basketball? I wanna play, we're not done. I think this is a team that has a really good chance

to move on and frankly we have revenge come due after last series at the Pacers last year. So I wanted Halliburton the whole time. I'm glad it worked out. I'm glad the Cavs once again were a paper tiger. That's three years in a row they've been a paper tiger. And I think this team, I don't know if they're a team of Destiny. I have heard that said a few times.

I think the guys on group chat called them a team of Destiny the other day. But there is something different. I never would have guessed that a team that is highlighted by Carl Anthony Towns, a player I never understood or respected all the way up until last October. But there is some sort of juju going on with them right now that is just thrilling. And I'm, I'm the only time I'll probably disagree with Ariel this entire time, this entire call is that I want the game to start tonight. I wish they were playing right now. I'm ready. Well, I know Sean, you've come on sometimes and you've just laid some bombs and laid some wood on some rivals.

Cause you turned into a sports fan, Sean. Uh, I hate our, I hate Carl Anthony towns after that series. And it's going to be tough for me to refer him for a while. No rational reason for it. It's just, he started playing well in game six and started puffing his chest out a little bit. And the wheels had come off off not just the Celtic series but the season and probably the era and

He became the target but that are you where do you let where did you land on towns? Are you still trying to figure him out? Oh, no, I see fighter is he no. He's the man. He's the freaking man I hope they build a statue for him outside. Oh my god, Carl Towns is the man. I mean look Everyone has their take on him Second trip to the conference finals and back-to-back seasons He beat Jokic last year Western Conference files like you need to start respecting this guy His team beat Jokic He was he was a big part of that in my opinion. I don't remember that as the Towns series

Oh, he was fantastic in that series Come on, but he must drive you crazy because he would drive me crazy if he was the center of my team. I would go nuts. I know what you're trying to do here. There is nothing you can say about the sports guy to get me to say anything negative about the New York Knicks right now. I freaking love all of them. I wish Jericho Simms and Matt Ryan and Jacob Toppin was back on the bench.

Because I miss those guys as well. That's how irrational all of this is. I cannot tell you what it's like walking around. So right now we're near NYU and seeing everyone with their Knicks gear. I was so tired of the LOL Knicks. I was so tired of all the jokes, of all the media outlets, always cracking jokes.

I mean, they're still doing it. TNT is still doing it. It's ridiculous how they're treating this team. But I just love how the city, how everyone is rallied around them. Jalen is the... I'm so lucky to grow up in an era where Jalen Brunson and Josh Allen are my two guys.

I mean, they are cut from the same cloth. They're exactly the same, and that my kids can root for these guys. The way he handled Friday, he didn't even celebrate. Look at the look on his face. He looked upset. And I went back and looked at the post-game press conference after game seven when Tyrese Haliburton thought he was also cute walking in there

with the t-shirt and the choking. I can't wait for them to get revenge for that one because we have not forgotten. And I went back and looked at his media availability with a broken hand. He had the broken hand in that game. And someone said to him, is this season a success? And it was his version of job not finished.

And he's like, did we make it far? Did we win? No, this wasn't a success. We're not here for any sort of like, you know, moral victory. I love his mentality. I love everything about him. And if you're still subscribing to the notion

that he's too small or not the best guy on the court or all this nonsense, you know, you're missing the point and you're missing the fun. This has been an unbelievable run. This is a likable team. This is a fun team. Carl Towns completely dominated every big man that Boston threw his way from Porzingis to Horford

to everyone in between. And by the way, this was dying of an illness. Horford's 39. Cornet was a, I mean, we had Cornet before you guys had Cornet. That was a great, and what about Mitchell Robinson in that one sequence? Well, that was the thing.

Boom, boom, I mean, I could go on and on. I will say, Sean never gave up on Mitch Robb Good you're waiting for those 15 minutes in the playoffs that was the weirdest thing about the series was By the end of the series all of a sudden the Knicks had the seven-man rotation that makes sense as like a four-round Playoff team which I was not expecting if they get good deuce and they get good Mitch They're incredibly formidable team. That legitimately feels like a championship team to me. If it's only six guys, I get really tight. And if one of those guys who's missing from that seven is Kat, like he was in game five, then I'm really nervous.

That was the best and the worst of this team that you saw in five and six. When all cylinders were firing in six was the opposite of five. So it's not, this is not, you know, this is not the 93 bulls. Like that's not really what we're looking at here with these teams. It's just their fears, it feels like an opportunistic hole for them to slide into. And like Ariel said, they have JB like in my lifetime,

never been an athlete who in the final minutes of a game, I trusted more in my life. Wow. Not even close. I mean, literally not close in my 43 years of watching sports. Who is even, I mean, who's on the list? I mean, you're a Bills fan, Ariel. I'm a Jets fan. So obviously I don't have anybody to choose from there.

Well, I guess first three quarters, Josh Allen. Wow. I'm sorry, I'm just lashing out. That was just mean. I don't know why I did that. What's so great about this is like for the last 20 years, all the Boston teams have broken my heart. From the Bruins, Red Sox, Blue Jays now, I'm a Blue Jays fan because my Expos left,

let's not get into that. Nick Celtics obviously and of course Patriots and both. Everything's turning in my favor now, Bill. This is incredible. We smoke you guys every year. In fact, we let you guys beat us at the end of the season so you wouldn't get the first pick. That was amazing. We're favored in 13 games this year, the Patriots.

We're coming. That McDermott-Switcheroo when we let you guys beat us was amazing. And then what happened here, you guys were so cocky going into this second round series. It was amazing. We should have been. We were minus 800 favorites.

Why wouldn't we have been cocky? You guys barely beat the Pistons. You rope a no-bass. We were up three-one and beat them in six. Every fourth quarter was either or. That's when they're most comfortable, you know it now. I know. That's right. By the way, Billy, you're not subscribing to the theory

that we beat the Celtics because Tatum's injured, right? We were winning that game, We were winning game four. Talk to my dad about this today. We lost the series in the first two games and the fourth quarter you played in game four, which was incredible basketball. Um, we would have been down three, one in the series with, with the poor Zingas who's like zombie poor Zingas. Um, how's are the sprained ankle, Jaylen Brown.

We find out after he had this torn meniscus that they were kind enough never to tell us about for two months. I don't think we could have won three in a row looking back. I think it would have been a tall task. You would add one game where you at least played one awesome half. And I just don't, I just don't think they would have won three straight with the team they had. Now before in March, I wouldn't have said that.

Game six would have been really tough for you guys even if Tatum was healthy, I think. Game four was hard. Tatum played one of the best games of his life. And we were down nine when he got hurt. Can I work up some indian animosity for you guys? Oh, please, easy. Not that hard.

I know Halliburton, you're already there. It sounds like 10 out of 10. Hatred. Annoying. Annoying. Yeah, fuck him. Yeah, tw. Easy. Not that hard. I know Halliburton, you're already there. It sounds like 10 out of 10. Hatred. Annoying. Annoying. Yeah, fuck him. Yeah, twerp. Yeah, fuck him.

Reggie Miller doing the announcing. Annoying. That means you have to see the eight, nine seconds and the threes and the Spike Lee trash talk. We're going to be force fed that. Not looking forward to that. Aaron Neesmith as a quote unquote Brunson stopper, just following them around every year and doing agitator stuff, like where do you stand on him?

Did you say Brunson Fowler? Brunson Fowler, some people say. That's, that's, that's his role in this series, I think. Okay. Well, Neesmith's good. Neesmith's good. Nemheart's good as well. My fellow Canadian hit that big shot in game three,

which we would have won the series had that not happened. They are a very good team and they're a very deep team. Dare I say they're the best team that will play in the playoffs so far. Sorry about, you know, the Celtics. I think you're right. If you remove the poor Zingas piece and Jaylen on, you know... As they're currently constructed, as they're playing right now. I'm not against that argument. They're athletic, they're like the 1993 Arkansas Razorbacks. They play full-court press the entire game. They don't let up. TJ McConnell is a pest.

He's annoying, he's a nat. They've got a deep line-up. Like I said, Siakam is really good, but we've got OG back. Remember how OG played against Siakam in the first two games before he got hurt? They seem to have. Turner's fine, but we've got Kat now. Remember how OG played against Siakam in the first two games before he got hurt? Turner's fine, but we've got Kat now who can compete with him. Everyone likes to talk, okay, Mattia Ran's good.

He didn't play last year, he was hurt. That's a nice addition, but look how different our team is compared to last year, and look how much healthier we are compared to last year. So- You have a healthy seven. A healthy, strong seven, and look, campaign is there if we need him as well our spark plug

All right, don't forget about him. I don't know if campaign I'm gonna be counting on that one No, you have more guys to hate Sean you have TJ McConnell hate him. I'm sure you'll work a healthy amount of animosity toward him Hey, also also a former sixer, which means I double despise him However, if TJ McConnell were a Nick, he would be an icon. I just want to put that out there. And then, and then Matheran who, you know, gets into it. He's like those Detroit guys.

He'll get into it two, three times in a series. He'll get some double techs. He's fun to root against. Rick Carlisle makes some annoying faces. I feel like the animosity is going to be, plus like all the, all the old 90s videos. It just feels like this will be a really good old school lot of hate on both sides. I also think Indiana's a really hard place to play

with the arena they have. They have great fans. The one thing, did you notice Rick Carlisle in his pre-series comments was trying to give a lot of credit to Precious Ochoa, I think, to kind of Jedi mind trick Tom Thibodeau into playing Precious. I was like, I love Precious. Precious plays so hard.

But I was like, why are we talking about Precious to Chua? You really wanted him out there. You did. And Obi Toppin, old Nick coming back for, you know, he'll have one quarter or one game where he's just awesome and be like, ah, the Obi Toppin game. I think Indiana has a slightly better team, but you have the Brunson piece. And that's why I think this is the line has shifted. So now it's like Pacers minus or Pacers plus one 24.

Nick's are favored. Um, but you're the healthiest you've been all year. And I really, I said this to Rossello on Sunday. I think second half of game four in game six were the best. I've seen those five guys play together. And you really haven't had all five together for long stretches. So that would be the case combined with the energy in those, uh, Nix games. It's, it's easy to hit those threes when you're playing Milwaukee without Dame,

when you're playing a Cleveland, when everyone's terrified because they feel like the series is sliding. It's a little different to do the pull up 25 footers in MSG when like Chalamet is stink eyeing you. You know, all the celebs. Sean, was there a celeb that you were like, come on, you haven't been to a game in 25 years. How are you dining on this right now? Anyone you want to call out or no? You know, I'm in a passionate one-sided affair with Anne Hathaway and I love her to pieces. And she's, you know, she's a big Nick fan, but there's a little bit of confusion as to whether Philly or New York is the city, sports city of choice for her. You know, she was at that

Eagles Super Bowl. Little bigamisty. You know, her family's from Philly, but she roots for the Knicks. But then there's a clip of her wearing Giants gear on Jimmy Fallon from eight years ago. Little bit of confusion around Anne, you know? I think she's a wonderful actress, but she's not really out here with like Tracy Morgan, Rock, you know, Stiller.

The Sopranos guys. Yeah, Bobby Bacala. Like those are really the icons. Yeah, Edie Falco. Chloe Seven, Edie Action Bronson. I had some Sudeikis questions, Ariel. Okay, okay. You stole mine, Bill. That one, I don't want to be that fan.

I don't want to be that guy. Where were you? You know, when Lance Thomas was running up and down the court, or Kylo Quinn. I don't want to be that guy. But Sudeikis is a Nets guy. He's all Nets. He's in Nets, Liberties, Barclays. He's in that whole universe. I saw him on Friday and that was the one guy where I was like, nah, this one felt a little bit weird.

But again, I welcome all. This whole thing that we can't celebrate or where were you when, all this nonsense, screw all that, be happy, enjoy the fun. Sean's not like that at all. Sean is not a welcome all. He's like, where were you? Where were you in round two when Ray Hibbert

was killing Tyson Chandler? Where were you? round two when Roy Hibbert was killing Tyson Chandler? Where were you? I know where I was when that series was happening was I was in a bachelor party in Montreal off my tree and watching that game in tears. I was so fucking mad and all the verticality. I remember that era very well. Where's Roy Hibbert now?

Nowhere to be seen. Where's that style of basketball? Dead. What are we playing now? Mitchell Robinson ball where we defend all five positions elegantly with grace and power until we break our ankle. Yeah. Ariel, where are you staying on Tibbs these days? And what was your darkest moment with him the last couple years?

Look, there have been... Okay, so I'll tell you this... Again, I know you're trying to get me to talk smack about the... I'm not doing anything. You're trying to create some dissension when the vibes are immaculate right now, all right? Not doing anything at all. This is dicey with us though. This is a little bit of a tricky thing, Tibbs. You know Ariel.

No, no, I'm cool with Tibbs. Ever since he was assistant coach with Jeff Nix and Jeff Van Gundy under the great Pat Riley, I'm okay with Tibbs. Tibbs is my guy. There was a game against- Does it sound like Sean says okay? Listen, different strokes for different folks. There was a game in... Does sound like Sean says, okay. Listen, different strokes for different folks.

There was a game in November, December at Chicago, where it was very clear that Carl Towns was dealing with some sort of knee issue. And at that point, it was the Derrick Rose game. Derrick Rose had his little ceremony, and so the Knicks were in town. It was the second night of a back-to-back. It was a Saturday. And he kept Towns in, and I thought Towns had a torn ACL. I'm like, why is he in? We're down by 15 points.

Why is he in? That was the one time where I was like, I don't know if I could deal with this anymore. But he's been phenomenal. He's made the adjustments, made the adjustments from five to six in the last series. That's my guy. I ride with him. I love the fact, I think it might have been on your show. No, it was on New York, New York. And I have to give a shout out to John. He's my guy. I ride with him. I love the fact. I think it might have been on on your show No, it was on New York, New York and and and I have to give a shout out to John

He's been phenomenal his interview with Chris Childs that dropped I think this morning was so great and such a blast from the past to hear that unique voice of his I've loved his coverage So shout out to John He said that you know his his vision of tips was like after game six He went to the back, opened a Diet Coke and just watched 100 hours of Pacers footage. That's what I love about him. He's not out to drink wine,

he's not out to go out for dinner, he's not out to hobnob. He is a true basketball lifer. He has no wife, he has no girlfriend, he has no kids, he has no nothing. I don't even know where he lives, the poor guy. He probably lives in Westchester. And so that's our guy, we're riding with him.

I love that he's still hanging onto the hair. The beard is a good addition to the look as well. You're not gonna get me to say anything about Tibbs. And what a story it would be for Tom Thibodeau to beat Minnesota. People don't talk about that angle. He was an assistant coach and then the head coach with Minnesota.

What a story that would be if he plays Minnesota in the finals. I'm getting ahead of myself here, but love Tibbs Can't wait for him to hold that trophy down the Canyon of Heroes in about a month and change Sean who plays Tibbs in the movie? Oh, I mean it would have been Gandalfini I mean what an extraordinary Gandalfini part that would have been you know He's got the same bearing burly guy the deep voice the thin, the thinning hair, you know, man on a mission.

Dan O'Fannie would have played his starters too much, I feel like. Like he played Paulie and Christopher a lot. What about Paul Giamatti? Oh, Giamatti would be good. See the size? I guess they'd have to cheat it. I mean, yeah, he could put a prosthetic.

You know, Giamatti would be a good Jeff Van Gundy, actually, now that I think about it. Okay, yeah, wow. I'm loving all of this.. You know, GMI would be a good Jeff Van Gundy, actually, now that I think about it. Okay, yeah, wow. I'm loving all of this. Look how far we've come. Now we're doing movies about the season. I can't wait, can we still buy the DVD? Like, do they still do that at the end of the year

when your team wins the championship? Can I still get that? Oh yeah. What a sad question. I don't know, I've never experienced this in my life. Bills have never won. Well, that's the thing, wait, because you haven't.

What happens is you just spend a lot of money over the next 72 hours. There's t-shirts and hats. You need, there's mugs. There's just a, and they keep coming and the hats keep changing. And then the DVDs come out. So you got to get those. It's it never end, but you had, I mean, Sean's Sean's kid is young.

You have kids now that are actually at the right age to experience, to just basically go completely apeshit if they actually kept going. Bill, this has been a gift from God, honestly, because I fell in love. The first team that I really, really loved, 1992 Knicks. 91, I remember when they got swept by the Bulls in the first round, 3-0. But the 92 Knicks, I remember vividly,

my brothers were Bulls fans. So in 92, I'm nine. And I remember sitting there, game seven, convincing myself that we were gonna beat the Bulls on the road to defending champions, and we got blown out. And I sat there, we were in a hotel room in Boston, and I was crying.

It was Memorial Day weekend, actually Victoria Day weekend, because we had off Canadian holiday. And my sons are the same age now, 11 and 13. And to be able to experience this with them as a dad, like it's, and I know you and your dad have bonded over the Celtics. Like there is, it is great for myself personally. I'm 42, I've lived and died with this team.

I adore them, but to now see it through their eyes, and you know what's the best part? They calm me down because as Sean said earlier, like we're cynics, we've been part? They calm me down. Because as Sean said earlier, like, we're cynics, we've been hurt. They're completely positive. They're like, oh yeah, we're going to beat these guys. Like, this is, I have a video that I posted on my Instagram.

My son said before the game, we're winning by 30. I'm like, are you insane? We don't win anything by 30. We never win a clincher at home by 30. And they're just sort of like, they have this sort of like blase attitude about it all. They don't know any better. They're idiots savants, for God's sakes.

And it's a beautiful thing to witness that and to experience that with them and also to not have the hurt that we have. They don't have any of this. And so it gives me hope that perhaps this is truly a new era, at least in my life. My buddy Sully's kids who were like early 2000s kids, and that was kind of how they saw sports. Cause they, they didn't have any of the DNA because like when they were little, Brady won the first Superbowl and then the Reds, and they just kind of assumed that's how

it was and they're surrounded by all these tortured older people who were just waiting for the other shoe. And then, then you have Sean, who's 40, how old are you now Sean? 43? Be 43 in July. Yeah. Yeah. Oh me too. It hasn't been a great sports run.

What day in July? I'm turning 43 in July too. We're like Kindred Spirits, you and I, Sean. 26th Ariel, what day are you? I'm July 8th. But anyway, stop being such a cynic. Enjoy it, man. I am.

The thing with Sean, I've known Sean since 2012. This is easily the best sports run he's been on. Vsodo, you got Ritter Baron Rogers, your least favorite New York athlete ever, and then the Knicks run. This is kind of weirdly the peak. Speaking of John Jastremski, John and I were talking about this last week.

I feel like the franchises are in very good hands. That's something that has defined my fandom, is feeling like the franchises you know you mentioned lol nicks lol metz is an ongoing and lol jets are ongoing bits for all the teams i care about they're often considered the laughingstocks of their respective leagues and somehow you remember this bill when when the nicks missed out on kairi and kd and they signed they signed randall i was apoplectic. I was so upset, so furious. I felt like it was the culmination of 20 years of failure

for the franchise since that 2000 run that they made that Ariel was referring to earlier. And I just could not take it. I was so sick of Dolan. I didn't understand. I thought the Timbs hire was a retread and I was wrong, wrong, wrong. I was wrong about everything.

I was wrong about every move that they made in the aftermath. I was, I actually liked the Brunson signing and did not have the like, I don't know about this contract attitude about it because I had just watched him mow down the jazz in that previous series in the Western Conference. So I liked that. And I liked that his dad was basically like,

we're bringing this kid here in two years and they had a plan, but almost everything else that they did, I didn't really get it. I didn't see it, I didn't understand it. I'm just a fan, like I'm not an expert. And to be proven wrong specifically in this way is the greatest feeling in the world.

Because like even the Bridges trade, two months ago, maybe even two weeks ago, people were saying, this is a terrible trade. And then he did things in that Boston series that completely flipped the argument completely. Fuck them picks is, is a motto in New York. Now we don't care about that. We are just delighted to have beaten the Celtics and to be going on to face the Pacers.

Yeah. You know, something you said, Aro is about, uh, the Knicks gear being everywhere. That was one of my favorite things about living in Boston when that would happen. When there was some big series or some big game coming up and just the city would just assume the identity of the franchise, which is really hard to do in New York, but was always why you knew Brooklyn was never going to really make it as the second alternative NBA team. Cause the case was as soon as the Knicks get their shit together, this is how it's

going to play out. And it feels like it's played out even more than that. Right? Like I, I gotta say, like the outpouring has been just watching it from 3000 miles away even feels bigger than I expected. And I had high expectations. Oh my God. Yeah.

And that scene on, on Friday was absurd. Like you walk out and there's a dude in flip-flops sitting on top of a billboard. I still have no idea how he got there. But all of it was pretty well behaved. I know the one guy in the Halliburton jersey, like what did you expect buddy? What did you expect?

Like he wanted that moment. I didn't like the Winhorse stuff I didn't like at all. Hated that, hated that, despised that. It's his job to give opinions, leave him the fuck alone. Couldn't agree more. But there were no cars being burned or anything like that, hated that, despised that. It's his job to give opinions, leave him the fuck alone. Couldn't agree more. But there were no cars being burned or anything like that, no fights, at least that I saw. And a lot of those fans aren't as old as Sean and I.

A lot of those fans grew up with those pretty crappy teams. Their one kind of high moment was 2013. Hibbert blocks Mello at the rim, Lensanity, things like that. And so I understand. And then you have this mix. It's like this mixture of these like 25, 26 year old kids who are all experiencing this for the first time. And then it's the, you know, the the Shans and I of the world who are like, wow, this is just like the 90s. And then I love meeting the old heads, right? Like the dudes that were there in the 70s that were like,

this is the second coming of Clyde. It's so, I mean, I get chills just thinking about it. It's those three chapters. And obviously there was a lot of crap in between, but to be in this city now, like when I was growing up, I used to say to myself, I need to make it to New York. I need to live in New York. I need to be able to go to work and be like one of those guys in the stands who's wearing the suit who just goes to the garden after work. Like what a life. You get to go to the garden after work and watch Patrick Ewing and Charles Oakley. This is unbelievable.

They sucked for 20 years when I moved here. So now finally we're here and experiencing the city, walking up and down the streets, seeing everyone wear their gear. It's, there's nothing like it. I've been here when the Yankees won. I've been here when the Mets made it to the World Series. Nothing even close to it.

Sean used to be like that. And then I made a move to LA. Come back. Sean was like, someday I'll just live here, I'll just leave work, I'll go to a Knicks game. I did used to live that life. Maybe see a screening after, it'd be great. I did used to live that life of going to Knicks games.

I'm trying to figure out, I don't know if I can go back now that since I haven't gone back already. Now I'm like, I'm feeling a little bit superstitious. I don't, I don't know. Oh, maybe, okay. Maybe, maybe that, you know, like you have FOMO. Do you feel like you need to be at one of these games?

Yeah. Friday I was in Oregon about as, you know, at a golf resort, about as far from the New York Knicks celebration universe as you could possibly be. And I'm the lone guy sitting in a bar, watching the game near tears, just like gobsmacked, gobsmacked by what I was watching. Same thing after game two, I'm sitting in my house in Los Angeles alone, hoping my child does not bother me, stunned by what was happening in game two.

That was the most shocked I've been at a sporting event in 10 years. So there's a part of me that thinks I just need to sit on my freaking couch and watch this series and not go anywhere. But if they advance though, I don't know. I don't know how you'll keep me away. Like I don't know how I could not go to the NBA finals.

I, it's hard for me to dream of that, but that would be genuinely exciting. It's going to be, I think it's already one of the harder tickets in the history of basketball. And then there's the combo of Dolan just hoarding all the tickets and not giving any to the league and So it's just like hey, I'm taking care of my people Steve stripper has been coming here the whole time He's gonna stay in the seat. Okay, he's weirdly loyal in a way that I love what was the darkest moment for you? Ariel Sean said it was when they signed randall was rock bottom for him. What was rock bottom for you?

Well, there are two moments where I really started to question myself. The first was the night that Oakley got dragged out of the building. That was dark, that was really dark. I adore Charles Oakley and I will till the day I die. And he meant so much to those teams. And I still believe that his number should be retired.

And I think Starks' number should be retired as well. That was very, very dark. And then the aftermath was a little weird. You remember the interviews and the media tour and all that. As far as like actual basketball, the day they traded Porzingis, I felt like, what the hell are we doing? Because I believed in my soul.

I actually feel this way about Brunton and Josh as well. I could see Chris Stapp's Porzingis holding a trophy. Like I could see that guy being a champion some way somehow. And it ended up coming true. He was just wearing a green Jersey when he did it. And I didn't understand why they gave up on him. Like I would have much rather give up on Phil Jackson or anyone else.

And so to me on that day, I was like, I don't know if I could do this. When they didn't get KD and Kyrie, I was bummed, but you know, KD was coming off the Achilles. I've never been a big Kyrie fan. I was definitely bummed, but I didn't feel like this was the end. I felt like it was a gamble, quite honestly.

And I didn't hate the Randall signing as well. So those two were really, really dark because Oakley has meant so much to this team and to this city and he didn't deserve that. And it's so great seeing all the legends. I miss seeing him. One of the great stories is seeing Ewing back in the fold here. Those videos of Ewing rocking up with the guys off the team bus into the locker room,

wearing his gear, looking like he could give you a solid 20 minutes, maybe 10 and 10. He looks ready to go. He's slimmed down. I love that content. I can't get enough of it. So it's nice to see all the legends, but we're missing one big guy, and I pray that they're able to figure it out.

A friend of mine, pretty connected, had good seats for one of the games, game four, game six. And sitting next to him was one of the, it was like Starks, one of those guys, it was like, oh my God. And then he just happened to be in the area where like six of them were. And it was like his young adult came to life and he was just like, almost having a seizure. It is crazy how many.

I, to me, like, look, I'm not a Knicks fan. I'm obviously a giant basketball fan. When we start moving into the Marbury era, that gets a little, where it's like, Hey, look, there's Marbury. It's like nothing good happened with Marbury the entire time he was with the Knicks. Like there's some of those, but I think. He's the son of New York though.

I get it, I get it. There's a more complicated thing there. Yeah, I just think the Celtics version of when we bring the greats back is a little, you usually have to have had one good thing happen. 18 to two, by the way, you know it's my like totally irrational dark day when we traded Maciek Lampi

to the sons for Spa Marbury. I was convinced that Lampi was gonna be the guy. He was our Polish prince. I thought that he would be like our European stud. And also when they got rid of- And he saw him in person. There was something about him that I just loved. And also Billy Hernan Gomez.

I thought that he was gonna be something special for us as well. Like there was all these guys and that's part of the fun, right, going through these stories and seeing all these Alexi Schwed, like those guys, like that's what makes all this worth it. Remember him? He had a great run.

Before we go, since I have both of you here, there's a UFC movie coming out with The Rock that The Rock is allegedly a real Askers contender for. So Sean follows this stuff obsessively and then this is Ariel's domain. Ariel, what have you heard? Okay. What have I heard about the film? The film is called The Smashing Machine.

It's based on, in my opinion, one of, if not the best combat sports documentaries of all time. It's about a guy named Mark Kerr, who had a crazy life, had a run in the UFC, but was really a star in Pride, which was an organization in Japan, when Pride was the number one MMA organization in the world in the early 2000s. And HBO, it's 2000, 2001 that this film came out, put on this documentary when, you know,

remember back then, 2000, 2001, like no one was airing anything about MMA. It was as far away from mainstream as possible, and there's drugs and there's all kinds of stuff involved. And so the film is based on, you know, the rock movie is based on that documentary. So my hopes are very, very high just given the subject matter. And I think initially people thought, hmm, are they going to be able to pull it off? Is it going to be too hard?

Is the rock the right guy for all of this? But once that trailer came out, I mean, I can speak for the MMA community. Everyone was like, holy crap, this looks a legit, it looks spot on. And it looks like they were able to capture the essence of that time period. So, they got guys like Oleksandr Usyk in there,

Ryan Bader playing Mark Coleman. Like I saw some of the footage. You know, they got guys like Alexander Usyk in there, Ryan Bader playing Mark Coleman. Like I saw some of the footage and I mean, just from the three minute clip, I think they kind of nailed it. I can't wait for this. And you know this as well as anyone, but like there haven't been a lot of great MMA movies.

You know, we got Here Comes the Boom. It's perplexing. And Warrior. Warrior is the best one, I think. Not a lot of them for some bizarre reason. Obviously, you know, not as old as boxing, but this could be it and and perhaps This is the one that gets the Rocks movie career back on track, which I would love

funny is they've been cranked they've been cranking out boxing movies pretty Pretty consistently for a hundred years and just when you think like they've made enough boxing movies Then another one comes out another one comes out I thought that the woman about the female boxer, Chrissa Shields, I thought that was actually good. The fire inside, yeah. The fire inside, yeah. But you would have thought there would be more MMA

and there just hasn't. All right, so Sean, we did, you've talked about this on your pod a bunch, we did a video on Ringer Movies about, is it ever gonna happen for The Rock? Why, is the movie star thing, has the ship sailed? And then you see this trailer and it's like, okay, maybe we're back in. To me, it's a, it's a, it's, it was a mystery.

And now it's just a frustration that it has taken this long for two reasons. One, I know you both know this, never seen anybody better on the mic short of Ric Flair in pro wrestling. I mean, he was just in the prime of the attitude era. And even in the second half, moving into the scene era, he was unbelievable at just selling anything. And a huge part of being a movie star is selling the absurd, is selling the ridiculous setup. So on that face, he should have been incredible.

And then secondarily, I always tell the story. I went to the premiere of Hobbs and Shaw, whatever that was seven, eight years ago. And, uh, it was at the Kodak theater in Hollywood and someone's soda rolled down the aisle and smashed into, um, a chair, which then triggered a fuse explosion and the lights turned off in the theater. So there was a delay before the film started. And to stem the tide and keep the people in their seats, Dwayne came out and just riffed for 25 minutes.

Just talked, made tons of jokes at Jason Statham's expense, just sold, sold, sold for 25 minutes just talked made tons of jokes at Jason Statham's expense Just sold sold sold for 25 minutes in front of 2,000 people waiting for this movie to start and he was magnetic And then I see the movies that he makes and I'm like who told him to do this Why is he in Jungle Cruise? Why did black Adam happen? I don't understand because you see him to communicate and you can tell just what a vibrant, fascinating, funny, self-aware person he is. And he just hasn't picked good collaborators. And the end note on this conversation is the person who directed the Smashing Machine is Benny Safdie, a Knicks fan and New Yorker who understands the peculiarity of strange characters. And Mark Kerr is an interesting guy. And the Smashing Machine documentary is not a cookie cutter portrait

of a rise to greatness. It's much more complex than that. So I think if you care about sports movies, if you care about the rock, if you're interested in combat sports, it's, it, it feels like it's tailor made for an incredible moment for him and, and, and for movies. We'll see. I care about all three of those things. The problem is with, with UFC and MMA in general, it's such a passionate, loud.

Audience. But then I always wonder like how, how big is the actual audience? Right? Like I know Netflix is thinking about, dude, you know, it's been reported. Do they want to get in and grab some pay-per-views? Like, I wonder if Netflix got some pay-per-views, Ariel, and it's just going to all these different countries. Does that make MMA bigger or did we hit the ceiling already?

Like, is there new people to find? Because I think this ties into the movie. How much audience is left that's out there? Oh, there's a ton left. I mean, we're seeing a guy named Ilya Tuporiya who has just opened this whole Spanish region that was non-existent, and they're saying that he can headline the Bernabeu,

which is where Real Madrid play, and that's like 80,000 people. That wasn't an option, you know, two, three years ago. And so when guys start to pop up in these different countries, and then, you know, people will emerge here, and it's very cyclical. There's high moments, there's down moments,'s down moments there's stars you know the whole

Russian region that wasn't really a thing five six years ago and now you have all these guys who are... France came on too that was another one. Yes so you know Brazil France has been incredible as far as MMA and pro wrestling so no they have not they have not hit the ceiling as you know combat sports like I said there there are peaks and valleys and Everyone likes to say you know I even said I said the MMA business is in a recession But I didn't say the UFC is in a recession I said the MMA business meaning there's just really one dominant league there are no prides anymore, and that's unfortunate

We we don't have it. I think we've talked about this in the past like there is no AEW to UFC's WWE right now not even close like not even close so the UFC is doing just fine they're going to get a multi billion dollar deal whenever they sign their new deal ESPN will probably still be involved in some way shape or form and it will continue to get bigger but as you know it only goes as far as like who the stars are right the UFC always wants to position itself as the biggest star, the UFC. That's the brand and it's doing great. But then when you get those superstars that come along

and they will continue to come along, it goes to a whole other level. And they're experiencing that with Deporia who's headlining on June 28th and they'll experience it with others as well. Yeah, he took the Pereira side. I'm still bitter. My guy Pereira.

Way younger. Yeah, cause you think Sean with the MMA audience that's kind of dormant, for a movie they really hit for the rock, you've got to hit different countries. He hits different countries anyway, and if that audience is there, so this could be the rare combo of like an awards contender that actually makes real money. That's not a franchise. Yeah. It's coming out in the first week of April,

or excuse me, the first week of October, which is historically a kind of a circling the square for box office and awards consideration. That's like the same weekend that a movie like The Star is Born was released. So I think they're looking for a kind of like commercial, critically acclaimed movie, which is, as we know, like one of the hardest things to do in movies right now.

And we'll see. My advice to him would be don't over-promote it. Don't feel like you need to be all over the place with it. Like be a little discreet because I don't feel like the over-promotion stuff works with the awards and this is like his one chance, but I hope, I hope we get more MMA stuff just in general. I'm always amazed that that's not a lane for movies right now.

It would seem like that would be even easier to do than boxing. You guys are the experts when it comes to this, but actually just today on my show, I spoke to Ryan Bader, who's playing Mark Coleman in the movie. And Mark Coleman was Mark Kerr's best friend. Looks just like him from the photos that I saw.

And I actually asked him, like, that was his first movie. He's a former UFC title contender, Bellator champion. What was it like, you know, just being on set, sitting around the multiple takes? Did you drive yourself crazy? And he said, and again, this is not my world, but he said, actually, Benny's philosophy is don't do too many takes, like three, four takes.

If the Rock's mouthpiece came out, like keep it. He wants it to be raw. He kind of shot it like a documentary, which actually made me even more interested in seeing how it all looks. So I don't know if that's unique. I don't know if that's something different, if certain guys do that, but I thought that was interesting. By the way, shout out to Bill for completely changing the subject and not maybe focusing on Miles McBride's huge block. And that's, you remember that chase down in game six

when he blocked and then they came back with the N1. Like I love the way you just transitioned away. That was a big time block. You have to admit. Like that was- I had to get 10 minutes of UFC with you when you're here. I mean, I just thought we'd talk more. Like, do we want to talk about how Missoula was exposed?

Like he doesn't really, you know, like- All right, settle down. We won the title last year. That was fine. Yeah, that was all Yudoka's doing. That was Yudoka. I mean, he just, he inherited the team. That was fine.

Yudoka. Can he be- Just stop. Can he be a little nicer to the media? Like, the shtick of being like, you know, like grumpy is wearing a little thin. Just my two cents. But, yeah, Luke Cornett had a great game five.

You're weighing in on Belichick's girlfriend now? What other hits do you wanna take here? Cornett had a great game five. I mean, like on Belichick's girlfriend now? What other hits do you want to take here? Cornett had a great game five. I mean, like, let's Are we raising a banner for the game five? Or what? What's the deal? We won the title last year. I'm in a five year grace period. Um, alright guys. Good luck.

Against the Pacers in round three. I'm happy for both of you. Wait, I was going to say, you're picking against us or what? I hear you and Rosillo and you guys just spend all this time hyping the Pacers and kind of like not negging the Knicks but just not addressing the Knicks. I'd like it's either Pacers in six or Knicks in seven. I don't think the Pacers can win a game seven against a healthy Knicks team with the way the arena will be. But we'll see. My fear for you guys, there's a couple of health guys.

I do not trust on your team who have stayed reasonably healthy so far, uh, towns in Ananobe, not to mention Mitchell Robinson, who every game you get out of him is, it feels like a miracle. So I just, you know, these playoff games are hard. They're intense. That's, I feel like the Pacers are probably a little more durable when this thing gets really physical than maybe the Knicks are, but who knows? You might have the team of destiny thing and the Brunson things.

Unbelievable. When he rooting against that guy in a playoff series in the fourth quarters, I just felt like he was going to score on us. And we had like, we had a holiday on him. We were throwing Tatum and Brown on him. And I just felt like he was going to get, us. And we had like, we had holiday on him. We were throwing Tatum and Brown on him. And I just felt like he was going to get, when he shook holiday on that, uh, that one shot, I can't remember if it was game one or game two coming off the inbounds with like 10 seconds left.

Just, just shook them off and got the shot he wanted. Like that was crazy. Nobody does that to drew holiday. So can I tell you something? I watched the four minute cut down recap of game four? Like 11 times in a row that night just to watch him absolutely cook white he cooked white he did all day long That was astonishing to watch whether he can do that to Aaron fucking knee Smith. We're about to find out. Yeah. Yeah Oh, I'm so worried about knee Smith. He just dealt with Thompson

Brown Tatum, Derek White. I like this, the cocky. I'm so worried about Neesmith. I'm so worried about him. Just keep it in check. What about Neesmith? What about TJ McConnell? Neesmith's good. Picking him up 94 feet. Ah, the horror. There is gonna be some 94 feet. They're gonna try to put some miles on your guy. They're gonna try to wear him down. I'm cool with it. Good luck. Thanks for coming on. I'm glad you were finally able to come on under happy circumstances. It was a pleasure to see both.

Thank you, Bill. Thank you. There are very few things that you can be certain of in life. But you can always be sure the sun will rise each morning. You can bet your bottom dollar that you'll always need air to breathe and water to drink. And of course, you can rest assured that with Public Mobile's 5G subscription phone plans, you'll pay the same thing every month. With all of the mysteries that life has to offer, a few certainties can really go a long

way. Subscribe today for the peace of mind you've been searching for. Public Mobile, different is calling. All right. He's been on this podcast many times. You know him from the Stratecery newsletter, one of the pioneers. He's also a giant Bucks fan. His name is Ben Thompson.

And if I'm going to make fake Yanis trades, really is that any real... No, atrocious fake Yanis trades. I just seriously consider, is it worth coming on a podcast with someone that apparently seriously proposed Yanis for Evan Mobley? Are you joking? Can I explain the thought process behind it? And then you can tell me how offended you should be. I mean, it's going to be hard to decrease the level, but sure.

Go ahead. Well, first of all, I don't think you should trade Yannis, which I said in the pod, I think you should keep Yannis because especially with the way the East is going. Oh, it's so bad. It's so bad. It's so bad. But it's embarrassing. If you're going to trade them, you can't do the Kevin Durant, get a bunch of picks

back and go for the future because you don't have any of your own picks. That makes no sense. So I need to get a good player back. And I am shopping on that Evan Mobleobile level looking at 80 cents in the dollar No, if I'm trading honest, that's what you have to do. No, you I get the overall thought process There's a few problems here. So number one this whole situation sucks. Just to be clear You know the there's a real trade-off. What's good for the box is good for you Honest, I mean the reality is if I'm going to take all emotion out of it It's probably best

for both parties, you know, to move on. I mean, the Bucks are, it's really rough. I mean, we were starting, the fan base was happy they were starting Kevin Porter Jr. in the final game of the playoffs. I mean, you can't overstate how bad it was. The other thing, if you're a Giannis fan, just to be honest, the fact you're proposing this seriously speaks to, in my opinion, how disrespected Giannis is. I mean, this is a guy that it was one game only completely handled the Oklahoma City

Thunder because he's a star who can initiate offense. He can score in volume. We know he's much better than, a Yokichat defense. I think his capabilities on offense as an initiator are underrated as well. And by the way, as long as I'm here rated as well. And by resume is at par or better than Yokichats. If you include all defense, if you include a defensive player of the year, if you include the NBA cup, which hilariously no one does. Um, but it's like his resume is there and he's, he's really good.

He initiates offense. He has a mid range game now and he's dramatically underrated as a Yanis fan. I want him to go somewhere and get his proper recognition as a Bucks fan. It breaks my heart. And as someone who had to watch the Indiana Pacers, I'm lucky I still have my eyes that I didn't gouge them out. When, and you're also, you're dealing with an organization also that just doesn't know what they're doing. I know Doc's your friend, sorry, he was a disaster. He's coaching from 25 years ago. They also haven't adjusted to Giannis' capabilities as an offensive initiator. They're still building the team like it's 2019 when the Toronto Raptors doubles kind

of overwhelmed him a bit. Although in that series, he was still the best player at a positive plus minus, didn't play enough minutes. But he is the key is him at point center. Like that's how you win in the playoffs. The Bucks I thought were building towards that with the Kuzma trade. Doc never plays Kuzma at the four. Probably wouldn't have mattered. He's horrible. But they never even got approaching the right approach with him.

So it's just been a disaster all around. And at the same time, he's Yanis, like he's loyal. He likes Milwaukee. He doesn't want to go somewhere. There's a very good chance we're back. Whenever we get back. We were supposed to be out a year ago that the bus got flushed out. I was very sad. Nothing has happened. So we'll see. All right. You gave me a lot to work with there. So. Sorry. I had to get that all out. I was, I had to make sure I got that in. You know, to express my disappointment with you, with your, uh, Yannis assertions over the last few weeks. Yannis better than Tatum.

Come on, get out of here. Or you have to get him better than Yannis, I should say. Well, Tatum's hurt now, so he is better. I know. I can't even truly go in on him. It's very sad. Real, real disappointment. Yannis being underrated.

Um, that's just bucks bullshit. He's in his third, second, third, fourth, or first in the MVP voting every single year. It's not like he falls to nine. He's always in the top three or top four. He's always first team on NBA. He doesn't get cheap MVPs for finishing six in his conference because some players got hurt. Like for some reason it's always all his fault. Oh, by the way, as long as I'm here, your what if segment a few podcasts ago, what if segment, this what if is Chris Middleton getting hurt in the 2022 playoffs.

Well, we had Robert Williams was hurt too. Like, come on. Get out of here. That's even, are you being more offensive than comparing Yadis and Evan Mobley, Robert Williams and Prime Chris Middleton. Wait a second. So if you're keeping Yannis versus trading him, if you're trading him, you have to trade him

in a place that has a chance to win the title. Right, can we agree on that? Yeah, so to your point, the Bucks need, the problem is their picks are scattered. There's like two swaps in a pick with Portland, which everyone forgets about, plus the swap slash picks with the Pelicans. So if you don't get someone good back, you

have to get some of those picks back. There's no hope for the franchise otherwise. But that's a conundrum though. Portland doesn't want Giannis because they're on their own timeline and he's not going to want to go to New Orleans, so you're not getting those picks back. Well, it's a three or four way deal if something like that happens. In reality, there's two options and maybe one dark horse that makes sense for the bucks. Option number one is a package around Amen Thompson.

Uh, I'm in Thompson. There's like, I personally think Amen might be a little overrated right now, which means to find the rockets, I should definitely want to trade him. But that is that it has to be someone like that or the number two pick from the spurs and both teams can throw in a lot of extra picks and assets. Those are the only two that from a bucks perspective makes sense. And every bucks fan is going to kill me. There is a potential Philadelphia 76ers package as well.

What? What is it? Maxi, McCain, number three pick. And you know, they have, they have the Clippers pick. They have a surprisingly high number of assets. I don't think it works because they have a similar problem to the Bucks. They have a $50 million or $60 million hole on their roster. Our hole is named Damien Lillard, their hole is named Joel Embiid.

But they do have a shockingly high number of assets that augmented by getting the number three pick. I'm Yanis though. I'm staying in Milwaukee over going to Philly and rolling the dice with Embiid. Why am I doing that? Oh yeah, me too. I'm just putting that out there because no one's talking about it. I think it's actually kind of interesting. And if I was Yanis, I'd want to stay in the East. Like it is, it's unbelievable. Who's your pick for the East next year? Well, that's the thing. It's New York and Indiana. It's a Celtics are probably out of the mix

Your teams in there Detroit. Yeah Orlando, I mean try my feet the one I mean, here's my advice to you. I have advice for the Celtics Wait, don't I don't want your advice in the cell. No, it ties to the Bucs though. The Celtics need to blow it up. The Bucs though. The Bucs problem was trying to preserve the old model, which was built around holiday pressure in the ball hand where Lopez backing them up. The moment you get Dame, that whole thing needs to change.

You need to reorganize the team, get a bunch of wings. Resigning Lopez was a mistake. You know, not prioritizing the wrong people even even at the minimum level was a mistake and To me this sucks for Celtics, but they should trade everyone and you're saying the window eight-year window It's now closed Blow it up rebuild around Tatum and you have a chance to rebuild it because you know Tatum what just started his extension Like this was the bucks mistake. It is the further you go down trading the future

you're so pot committed and so in the hole that it's I mean best case scenario people on bucks Twitter all about trade like the third late first round pick this year to try to get to or trade their 20 31 31 pick to get two picks this year, try to just sort of get enough people and like pray for like two years from now when you have a 35 year old point guard coming off an Achilles injury. Like that's our best case scenario. It's very ugly. It's not great.

Well, if you go through the contenders, Oklahoma city, if they lose one of the next two rounds, I guess it would be a possibility, but if I'm Oklahoma city and I'm taking the giant money Yanis is making combined with all the other money that they're going to have to show out. I'm not sure I'm doing that. Yeah. The problem with Oklahoma city is you're showing out money to guys who I don't think, uh, might not be worth that money.

I mean, they're there. I understand what they're doing, keeping all these picks and having a few stars and just continually cycling, cycling everyone out around them. Um, I, I love Jalen Williams on my fantasy team. I've had him the last two years. Um, the regular season is not the playoffs, uh, that, that is never been clear than ever. The problem though is any picks from a team Yannis goes to are worthless because Yannis is really good and will make those picks worthless. So you need picks from other teams or a three,

I mean they could maybe do a three way sort of trade with the Palo Cans or Portland or something like that but very hard to pull off. All right, so I'm gonna say OKC is a thumbs down Self-exert in the conversation. But again, I'm pressing probably wouldn't do it I mean, I think realistically if not his story free on if they get the honest they're gonna win I mean the problem is I don't feel like Sam Presti really wants to win Which is why I'm cheering against Oklahoma City continuously

I feel like in the NBA you should have to go for it takes out tonight. Sam Presti doesn't really want to win. That's a take. I would say he wants to win. He's trying to have a decade-long project. Yeah, exactly. It's the small market version of light years. This idea that instead of going all in around what you have and doing everything possible to get one. And by the way, the Bucks got one. I am fundamentally, I'm disappointed. Giannis doesn't have more. I'm disappointed the Bucks don't have more. I am very grateful that they got one.

And we'll talk to Oklahoma City fans. If they end up getting it, then congratulations. I think that Minnesota is pretty good. We'll see how it goes. If they get one, congratulations. If they don't, let's talk in a decade and see how you felt about the decade long project to make the Western Conference finals. I mean, that's how I feel about the Celtics from 2016 and now it's a nine year

run, they won one title, but at least we had the one title you had. You had the honest thing. Everyone is like, Oh my God, Yannis, how is he in this situation? Well, you made two massive trades where you gave up a shitload of assets and it paid off with the title, then it didn't pay off with Dame, but that's how you get in this situation.

Yeah, and at the end of the day, the last time I was on here was after the Dame trade. I should probably not come on spitting takes. I should come on eating some humble pie after how that turned out. We argued about that for the entire summer. Yeah, you're right. So I will come out and admit that's the case. But you know what? They went for it and it didn't work out. And I had a decade of Yannis, the Bucs won a title,

which I didn't think I'd ever see in my lifetime. So at the end of the day, I'm good. And I practice self care. I just don't watch too many Bucucks games when I realize exactly what's going to happen. We talked about, so if you go through the contenders, Knicks, I mean, I don't see. No this is the one that bugs me. The Knicks blew their load and that's where I wanted Yannis to go. If this was going to go wrong, I wanted him in Madison square garden when a hundred percent would get the respect he deserves, would get the internet fighters he deserves, and would just blow up that city. And alas, uh, I guess if you want Mikael Bridges instead, um, better win this year or else, uh,

you're not, you're going to hear it from me for awhile. Well, what if they, what if the Knicks fell short in one of the next two rounds and then there's some sort of towns with bridges for Giannis and the problem is they don't have any picks to throw in. Yeah, that's no good for the Bucs. I mean, the Bucs need, it's a small market team. Like you're not going to get a bunch, you're not going to think how the Knicks built their

team is all things considered pretty impressive. I think they went, like I think the Bridges trade was probably the mistake just because of how much you gave. Well, unless they win the title, then it's not a mistake. Exactly. No, that's the thing. It's a little humbling that they've made it this far, because I dropped that take earlier in the Playhouse on Twitter, and Knicks fans have been throwing it in my face ever since.

And it's a fair point. That's the other... I'm actually curious if you update the book of basketball again, which we all know, you know, now that you're a professional podcaster, I don't know if you've written anything in typing. Exactly. You can't do it on your phone or maybe you can. Okay.

But, uh, what, how do you evaluate players from this era? I just compared Janos and Jokic, right? Like if Janos and Jokic play in the 80s and 90s, both who have games that I think would scale very well to those eras in a world where the illegal defense, player movement, all these sorts of things favor stars to such a massive extent. Do they have more than one title?

Unquestionably, does the fact the NBA is gonna have seven teams in seven years actually mean that both of them deserve a bit of a adjustment in their all-time rankings despite only having one title? It's pretty interesting to think about historically. Yeah, because 30 teams, a lot of talent. It's way harder to keep a team together like we're seeing now with the Celtics and some other ones.

Yep. I always compare the guys in the era first. You gotta start there with who are you going against and how much did you stand out? Both of those guys qualify. I think both of them are in that Shaq, Moses, Hakeem kinda area. Yeah, right.

I think Durant's probably in there too. I think that's right. Somewhere in that 11 to 16 range. Um, and I think what Jokic has done, um, year after year, offensively might, might give them a little bit of a Trump card. Yanis is basically 30, 12 and six for seven straight years. Right? Go through and look at the resumes.

It would actually surprise you. Uh, the one advantage is, uh, is one more MVP, which I think was BS, but whatever, uh, add in defensive impact, defensive player of the year, all defensive teams. And Bill, the Emirates NBA CUP, come on. Well, wait, so let's go back to the exercise of going through all the contenders. Cause you mentioned Houston. I want to come back to them. Nick's are out.

Lakers are out. Denver's out. Indiana. I don't, I just can't imagine the right trade for that. You start going down the list. No, it's Houston, San Antonio. Houston is the one that team that should do it. Is there a golden state?

Anything that interests you there? Nothing? No. No. It's ridiculous. The Golden State and their organization and the media and the fans have fully completed their transition to Lakerdom. Just delusionally overrating their players, assuming everyone will just end up on their

team. There's no world. I mean, number one. They did get Jimmy Butler some ass. As long as we're insulting your takes, Jonathan Kamiga stinks. Athletic specimen to be sure, doesn't know what he's doing anywhere on the court.

I would love to see Yannis and Curry together. We thought we were getting that with Yannis and Dame. Moving off the ball, the Yannis and Dame problem is, and this is a classic NBA problem, the honest and dame problem is, and this is a classic NBA problem, it's actually been really interesting to watch, which is one of my, the one of those interesting players I watched in the bucks was Christian Wood and Christian Wood was a very skilled player. The problem was he could only play as the number one guy.

He was completely incapable of scaling down to another position. And he wants to be the number. And so you could see what happens when he's the number one guy. He goes to Detroit, scores a lot of points and that team wins like 15 games. Like that's the quality of his being a number one guy. And he also played the same position as Giannis. So some Bucs fans were upset when we shipped him out, but to me, it was obvious. He was never, ever going to be sort of a useful player in that regard.

There's a little bit of a useful player in that regard. There's a little bit of a similar dynamic with Dame. Dame's a great player. I'm not comparing him to Christian Wood at all. He carried those Portland teams for years and years, and he carried them mostly to the second round of the playoffs. And he couldn't really scale to being a number two when Giannis is a top two number one guy.

And that was really the core problem. When Dane played by himself, it was great. When Giannis played by himself, it was great. And when Dane played with Giannis, it was this weird passiveness. And like, it almost felt like, it felt like he was being passive aggressive about it. But I don't think that was the case.

I just think he wasn't able to sort of scale in that way. And so from a basketball fan perspective, I love watching this with teams, right? You see an up and coming team and they have to figure out organically who's the number one guy, who's the number two guy, who's number three guy. It's such, it's the human component of basketball. That's so interesting. And if I weren't a Buck fan suffering through it, watching the Yonis team experience was burying in that way.

And that's the fundamental reason why I think it didn't work out. Yeah. I noticed it. Why not really having a dog in the race. Sometimes guys really have trouble figuring out when to slide in and out. I think that's what's been so impressive over the years with Jalen Brown is he feels like it's Tatum's team, but he has a sense of when to come and go, depending on the moment, but at least when we had those guys together, it's easier when

you have two number two guys. So. Well, the only other team there was, there was a Memphis one too, for I'm ignoring you, um you There was a Memphis like a Jaren Jackson one, but the reason I thought of the mobile was because You get a guy on her contract for five years He's one of the 15 or 16 best guys in the league and still has some room to go I think he is when I do ringer hundred

I have him and I forget what I had him in the last one But you know, he just won defensive player of the year. The problem with all this stuff is the playoffs are so different than the regular season. It's a cliche, but it's more true than ever. And the problem with Mobley and what you need in a guy like that is someone who imposes himself on the other team. Someone that the other team has to react to.

That's not going to be Ahmed Thompson either. I hate to break it to you. I don't think so either honest, but I think there's at least the potential there I mean, I I would say Mowgli has as much potential for that I don't know. He's been in the league five six years when is he what have you felt Mowgli imposing himself on you? like Thompson has done that on the defensive end and Occasional flashes on offense again, to be clear, I don't think so. I don't think he's going to get there offensively, but he's young enough. But the ceiling's worth the bet.

The ceiling, if I'm the Bucs, I can see it. To me, the play is probably San Antonio, which is disgusting to me. So you're saying number two, Devin Vassell to make the contracts work, one other contract and then more picks. A ton of picks. They have a huge stash of picks. Interesting ones. They have an Atlanta pick. The key thing is you need, ideally you get picks from teams you're not trading Yannis too because Yannis is going to make those piss picks worthless

And so so you either need hope that the Bucks can tank into a good player Which means you need the Portland picks back in the Falcons picks back Which is gonna be really hard or you need someone like Thompson that I would love to get a Thompson Jersey That does that does make me excited. Or make me a thing like the number two pick that there you got your, you got your tank-tastic pick right off the bat. And you, so then, and then you're basically like, I don't care about our own picks. Those are some costs.

Let's just try to figure this out. You need at least one core piece, either the chance at it with your own picks or the number two pick or Thompson. And it's really hard to see anything else. I mean, maybe the number three pick, but also it seems like Harper's the clear number two. And I'm still not sold on that. By the way, I looked at my ringer hundred that I turned in for the last time we did it, which is a couple of weeks ago.

I had Moby 13th. He's 23 years old. You know, in NBA history, even if you put them at 13th, the gap between I get it. 1.5 and 13, it's astronomical. So I read the bucks just tink. Well, I guess they can't tink. They have no fix. Well, the real move is to keep Yanis and take it into the season, say he's

staying, see how it goes, and then he'll probably have just as much, if not more value from December to February, I would think. Yeah, it's just so hard to trade a contract of that size. That's the other thing that makes this difficult, is how many of these teams have sufficient flotsam to trade, to make up the salary difference. I mean, I personally am probably the most pro Houston,

even though I'm hesitant about Thompson, I'm pro Houston for Giannis' sake in that they are like an amazing team with no star. That's their problem. And Giannis, I think putting Giannis, they would have to build around him. Yeah, but I'm not doing that trade if I'm Houston, if I have to also give up Thompson because I need him to be one of my best three guys to actually try to

win the title. If I'm actually trading for Yanis, you know what I mean? Yanis, because you're, no, because you're getting one, one of the best or arguably the best player in the NBA. I think, I think Houston with Yanis, with their assets wins a title with Yanis. Thompson was their best player in the playoffs though. Dan Vliet, Dylan Brooks, like that.

I don't think that's it. You need Thompson. You need all the stuff he does. That's. I was going to make a joke about he was the best player in the playoffs at the end of the first round, but as a Bucs fan, it's hard to make that joke. Yeah. No.

So you're thinking, so you would do Thompson. I think the Van Vliet contract probably has to be in it to make the honest thing work. Yeah. I said a fake trade somewhere, a bunch of trades. Yeah. I think I'm ideally would get someone like Jabari Smith to, um, Jabari Smith might be bad. Um, his three point percentages are disappointing. He has, yeah, he hasn't played with great guards. So that's, that's kind of the argument for it. He's definitely just a supporting piece.

Stick them in the corner and just tell them the jack up threes if they happen to pass him the ball. And that's kind of what he does. I mean, I'm someone that's easy to get overly biased by summer league. Jovary Smith was awesome at summer league last year. He's like, Oh, the or a couple of years ago, the number two player making a leap. Ahmaud Thompson. Oh man. One of the best summer league debuts ever. Just absolutely incredible. But yeah, it's probably Texas or bust. Giannis, by the way, very cheap, no taxes. He will like that a lot.

That literally might be what pushes him over the edge. We'll see. The problem is, the reason I like the Cleveland trade for him was because, all right, if I'm leaving Milwaukee, I have all these ties that have been here since 2013, I want to go to a place where I'm now the favorite to win the title. That's not the case if he goes to Houston or San Antonio.

Do you flip him in Mowgli? He is now the favorite to come out of the East, like unquestionably with the team they already have. And that's what I thought was the appealing piece. Yeah, well I think, I get your point. It's interesting, are you looking at it from the Yanis perspective or the Bucks perspective? I think you Are you looking at it from the Yanis perspective or the or the Bucks perspective? I think you have to look at it from the Yanis perspective because you're throwing him a solid by trading him because he's your guy

And if you want to put him in a good situation in the Bucks defense, I think they've made a lot of poor decisions I don't understand why John horse got a contract extension. I think has done a terrible job But they did spend a lot of money. They did win a title. I think they've done right by Yanis, all things considered. And you owe it to the organization to maximize the return. What if he calls, he's like, I will go to these three spots and Houston's not one of them, then it gets a little, I personally don't think going to San Antonio guarantees him anything.

I don't know if Juan Bonilla, like do we even know he's going to be playing 60 games a year with his, his body makes me nervous. He's already gone down once. Look, here's the deal. San Antonio may have a disappointing supporting cast. That supporting cast is like 10 X better than what the bucks were trying to this year. Like, like I, but you're in the West.

I'm in the West instead of the East. If I'm in, if I'm on Cleveland, I'm cruising. I have to worry about the Knicks and the Celtics two years from now and the trade for Yannis, it'd be great. I'm saying for the bucks, it'd be a disaster. Uh, you want to send them the other conference and bring the bucks. It was not even that. I don't mind.

Actually, I would like Giannis to go to the East for Giannis' sake because I want him to win a bunch more titles and it's definitely going to be much easier. If you're the Bucks though, and you're facing this one of the worst holes in NBA history, you need more than Evan Mobley. That's just sort of the, so the long short of it. I mean, I actually, I know three-way and four-way trades are hard. You need more than Evan Mobley. That's just sort of the, so the long and short of it. I mean, I actually, I know three-way and four-way trades are hard, but I think if this happens, the only two, the direct trades that make sense are San Antonio and Houston.

If they're, there are possibilities that are almost impossible for us to build. And you see some of these trades come down and they actually get really quite complicated to slot in. So Yanis goes to Cleveland, Mowgli goes somewhere else. Yeah. He goes to some other, you know, some somewhat contender. And then some of those picks start coming back. Um, that, that, that would be, that would be, I think that that's

probably a chance to happen. Do you think Cleveland, what if Milwaukee came back and said, we'll do it if it's mobile and Garland. So what we can have the same playoff performance Cleveland has had. And we'll dump, we'll dump, we'll give you Yannis and dump a contract on you. You can have Yannis and Mitchell. Then I don't think that makes sense if I'm Cleveland. Well, I don't know if I mean, where do you, what are you building for Milwaukee?

Yeah. I mean, if you want to be a sort of a middling team that has a second round ceiling then just keep you honest That's you know again. It's only it's ultimately up to you honest. I mean he's not He's he didn't he's not a US superstar. He didn't grow up in that culture. He's well documented He's sort of background where he from. He's very comfortable in Milwaukee. He likes the idea. Anyone that title, you leave out the part that he has a ring already.

It's not like he has to go chase it. That's right. And you know, as my heart, my heart is split. Because it does kill me to listen to you, to listen to everyone else. I think underappreciate how great he is because of how bad this situation is. And I want better for him.

But I'm bad, I love having him on my team. So when I voted for him for third for MVP, should I put little stars next to it to show how much I cared, or what did you want from me? Put a little chocolate on it? I just, I want, I don't want any comments about Tatum being better. I don't want him one for one for Evan Mobley.

Tatum was better the first 55, 60 games of the year. And then Giannis came on like a freight train. Yeah, Giannis, I don't know. Giannis was pretty good all year. I will say one thing. Can I do one Giannis critique? He does get a free pass for when his teammates don't play well when they're next to him.

It's always their fault. It's a little bit of Lebron. Lebron ish. Everybody like Malik Beasley is really good on Detroit now. How was Malik Beasley in the playoffs? He was good with Milwaukee the regular season also and then stunk in the playoffs. Grayson Allen was really good on Phoenix the year he left Milwaukee. I don't know. It's just we kids go up with Giannis a little bit. Giannis fucked up on the Halberd and drives in that game that they blew. Like, Halberd up with Giannis a little bit. Giannis fucked up on the Halberd and drives in that game that they blew.

Like, Halberd went by three times in a row. I thought he was this octopus on defense. Grayson Allen, great in the later season, stunk in the playoffs. That's what happened to the Bucs too. You have a small guy with a slow release. They don't, they don't turn out well. Grayson Allen was the hero of the 2022 Celtics comeback.

Jason Tatum at every one of those coach K camps should be buying Grayson Allen caviar, like Dom Perignon, whoever. I mean, it was, oh, I'm still mad at Bud about that. I mean, oh, but we have to go. It could always get worse. That's the Bud lesson. All right. So, so we go, you're, you're in favor of keeping Yannis or Godfather

offer from San Antonio or Houston. Cause the one other thing we didn't mention when Davis went to the Lakers, the Lakers really wanted Davis cause of LeBron and they had this window and they, they were going to do whatever it took. Ishby when he really wanted to rant, he's like, fine, I'll throw in Cam Johnson. I'll do anything it takes. I don't know who the I'll do anything anything it takes to get Yanis team is yet. I mean, that, that would only because, uh, it hasn't emerged.

Maybe it'll emerge over the next two rounds. Yeah. I mean, we didn't see Minnesota emerge for go bear until the trade actually happened, right? And that package, uh, was pretty significant. And I think we can agree that Colbert is not even close to the level of player that that Giannis is. So and that by the way no one was putting in the Timberwolves as competitors. I'm still

not sure I like that trade to be honest a few years later but you can't deny. They gave away way too much. I mean, what, I need a rankings prediction, Bill. If Anthony Edwards wins this year, um, at the age he went at, I mean, we're, no, you're in like magic bird, magic bird under 25 territory. It's pretty crazy. Fully appreciated the trajectory that he might be on. It's, it's pretty crazy. I'm not sure it's fully appreciated the, the trajectory that he might be on. It's, it's pretty amazing. Ben Thompson, you can follow or subscribe to the

Strategory newsletter, which has been an essential piece of. Does not have any, any, any NBA talk, which is probably best for everyone. No, that's good. Good to see you. Thanks for getting up early for us. Talk to you later. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Fentasy and Ariel and Zach and Ben and Gahal and Eduardo for producing. You can watch these as video podcasts on Spotify. If you did not know that, you can check out the Bill Simmons YouTube channel for all the

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