The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Jaylen Brown Colonoscopy Trade (and More NBA Summer Reactions) With Chris Ryan and Kirk Goldsberry

Episode Date: July 2, 2026

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Chris Ryan and Kirk Goldsberry to react to the blockbuster Celtics trade that saw Jaylen Brown end up with the 76ers in exchange for Paul George. Then, they discuss the Lakers' offseason moves, Kawhi heading to Toronto, and possible LeBron landing spots! (0:00) Intro (1:15) Jaylen Brown traded to the 76ers (01:08:45) The Lakers' moves (01:26:11) Kawhi Leonard heading to Toronto (01:32:29) LeBron landing spots and other offseason moves Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kirk Goldsberry and Chris Ryan Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers Brought to you by PayPal. Learn more at paypal.com As the Official Beer Sponsor of the FIFA World Cup 26, Michelob ULTRA away $1million in FIFA World Cup tickets and prizes. https://www.michelobultra.com/superioraccess/FIFAWORLDCUP26 MICHELOB ULTRA® FIFA® WORLD CUP 26TM SUPERIOR ACCESS. No Purchase Necessary. Open to US residents 21+. Begins on 12/1/25 and ends on 7/31/26. Multiple entry periods. Visit https://www.michelobultra.com/superioraccess/FIFAWORLDCUP26 for free entry, entry deadlines, and Official Rules. Message and data rates may apply. Void where prohibited. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result? Less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. Learn more at Accenture.com slash Spotify.

This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by PayPal. You know a clutch move when you see one, a no look pass, a buzzer beater, big steel. Well, imagine if your wallet could pull off moves like that. That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony, all birds, and Viator, and save offers before you check out. Earn unlimited rewards. Plus, you can add those rewards on top of credit card points.

Now that is clutch. Download the PayPal app today. Save those offers, start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See PayPal.com slash rewards terms, credit card points subject to issuers, terms and conditions. The Bill Simmons podcast live on Netflix, a rare morning podcast. Kurt Goldsbury and Chris Ryan are here. Wanted to mention we put up the last episode of From Hell on the rewatchables.

We did Pacific Heights. and I thought we had escaped from hell last month, but apparently we did it because I have a story for you guys. So I'm just going to, can you clear out for me? Yeah, it's all you. Just play some base as I had talked to the audience. So I didn't have a reaction pod to this Jalen Brown trade yesterday because I was getting a colonoscopy.

And it was supposed to be last week and I screwed up the prep. And the time they had was July 1st at 3 p.m. Pacific time. And if I didn't take that time, I would have gone on July 50th. So I'm like, all right, you know what? Like, I can do a Thursday pod. I'm going to get knocked out. So we're, I'm watching the, the World Cup game and then go in, had a very similar

experience to UCR where the guy said, uh, right as I'm about to get knocked out. He's like, where do you think LeBron's going? I'm like, oh, maybe Denver. And then I'm out. wake up and all I want to know is what happened with the World Cup game. And the guy's like, oh, they just had penalty. There's a penalty kick and actually saw the penalty kick and whatever. Come out.

My wife's waiting and pick me up. And she goes, they traded Jalen Brown. I'm like, I had just woken up from anesthesia. And I'm not, as you guys know, not really coherent. And I'm like, where do you go? She's like, to Philly for Paul George in two first round picks. And I'm like, I think I'm dead. I think I died.

The anesthesia killed me, and now I'm a dead person. And I'm like, and I'm just trying to process it. And it's, you know, it's like I have a head injury. And I'm like, is there more, are there more first round picks? Did they get the clippers first? And she's like, Zoe's really upset. So now my daughter, who likes Jail LeBron. And I'm like, all right, can you read me what the trade is?

And she reads me the trade. And then I stumble out of this hospital place. So when this trade happened at 320 Pacific time, I had a camera in my ass, and I had Paul George being rammed up my ass. And that was happening at the same time. And that's how I'm going to remember July 1st, 2026. So we're driving home. And I'm like, I'm like, should I do an emergency pod?

My wife's like, no. You're like barely coherent. You probably start giving me your social security number. I would just be like, ah, blah, blah, blah. So anyway, that's my story of finding out the trade. See, our story was a little more pleasant than mine because he had just finished. They talked the Thrones pod. Yeah.

Van and Jomey. You tell the story. No, I was, I had just finished recording with Joe and Mal and Van and Jomey burst into the room. And I was like, it felt like LeBron, but I couldn't. I couldn't tell and obviously after a lot of guessing. You did not guess Jalen Brown. I did not guess them. Because I just didn't expect us to go back to this well after Forford.

I thought it was kind of Omerto. But I guess I should have, it's a big time for Browns getting treated between Boston and Philadelphia. Yeah, we passed back and forth, 29-year-old Browns. And yeah, I mean, it was, it was very, in some ways I feel like I'm still living in that moment because I'm processing it. It was also built like, because you were under general anesthesia for a lot of it, one of the most intense sports days of my life.

Because USA is coming up. Yeah, you realize after, if you do 14 hours of watching sports and getting the social media drip about it, like your brain is falling out of your ears by the end of the day. So I did England. It did most of Belgium, Senegal. The incredible work that all of our colleagues did talking about making. making the Lakers white again. And then USA and Jalen Brown hit in there.

It's like I could barely like my brain was scrabled eggs at a certain point. Kirk, I spent yesterday morning, I was so delighted by how bad the Lakers moves were. I was just torturing all the Laker fans of my life. I did not think the Celtics were going to trade Jailen Brown. I thought they had canvassed the league not like what they saw. And they're like, you know what, let's just walk in a room and we'll figure this out. There's not a trade for this. And we can talk for about a variety of reasons why there might not have been a trade for Jalen Brown.

But I was having such a great day. I was going to get this cold nats could be done. I was going to watch the Team USA under anesthesia. And it was just going to keep rolling. And I feel like I used up a lot of karma points with all the taunting texts. I did to all my Laker fan friends yesterday because I thought what they did was hilarious. We'll talk about it way later. When did you find out about this Jalen Brown trade car?

Oh, I have a boring story. I was sitting in a chair getting ready for soccer and a typical Shams notification washed across my screen. And I did the thing where I was like, is this the real Shams? This doesn't make sense. So I like had to verify. I didn't want to be tricked. The most shocking part for me, Bill Simmons,

is the fact that the Boston Celtics traded one of their best players to the Philadelphia 76ers. Like the historical part of that as a kid who grew up Pennsylvania watching Dr. Jay and Barclay and Moses Malone go against your favorite team of your childhood. This is one of the great rivalries in the NBA. And I was just shocked to see a player of his caliber get traded from Boston to Philly. And as I sat there, I was like, this is insane just because of the two franchises involved. And then the second reaction, of course, is like, they didn't even get the best pick that Philly had. They got older and not younger,

somehow, and then you're just trying to... But it was... I had, of the three of us, I admittedly had the most generic experience finding out. He's being shy, Bill, because right after that, he went and got his own colonoscopy. He just didn't. I mean, it was just in a bar in Maine, but he still got it. He got a homemade one. Back alley style.

The Philly thing, I think it's the greatest robbery in the history of the league. People would point to Celtic Lakers, but you're just talking about the finals where the Celtics just beat the Lakers every year. And then, you know, then they didn't play for a while. Then they played again in the 80s a couple of times. They put in the 2000s a couple of times. They haven't been in a series together in 16 years. Boston and Philly, every decade, have battled in some sort of way.

They've had some sort of playoff series. When we did Celtic City, which maybe we have to do a 10th episode now called Celtic City. The team is falling apart. We did a whole episode built around the 80s, Celtics, Philly. Did Dr. J. versus Bird, all that stuff back and forth. I can't even remember that many times CR when they've even made trades. Like I remember we got Dana Barros from Philly as a free agent,

but for the most part, like, this is certainly the biggest transaction ever between the two franchises. I know that, I mean, like there's obviously the Horford signing, but this is the last time I remember anything like this was like getting Jim O'Brien to coach. It's seriously like I have to go back to like these weird, these weird moments in history. because for the most part, the two cities and the two teams pretty much are like, this is shut off. It was funny, you know, like other friends, like, because of the World Cup, I've been in touch with a bunch of my buddies in England, and they're like, can you explain this to me in like Premier League terms?

And I was like, this would basically be like Liverpool signing Marcus Rashford if he was coming off of a career year. It's really, it's really, really complicated. And for the Sixers, you know, they've been starting. shopping since the Jimmy Butler deal, since they decided to break away from like the draft and develop model to like collate some of those prospects and get get a star for Embed. So if Butler, Forford, Hardin, what have you. Then Paul George. Well, this is, and Paul George, but this is the first time they've done it.

And I think that the star that the Sixers were trying to compliment wasn't Embed, it was Maxie. Like, I don't think this is a trade for Embeded. I think this is a trade for the younger core. And, you know, I don't even think that Jalen Brown and Joe and B. pair that well together. I'm excited to be proven wrong, but, like, they both, like, been ranged. They both, like, having the ball in their hands and kind of surveying the court. You know, it's going to be really interesting to see how it works out in a basketball way.

But this is a different kind of trade than the Sixers have made over the last couple of years. I don't think it's just for M.B.'s purposes. He pairs better with the. speed of Maxie and Vijay, the Embed thing will be weird. All right, you got to clear out again, because I'm going to walk you through my thoughts as this happened. First of all, how many hours has it been? It's been, I don't know, 17. This is the most unpopular trade with Boston fans since Moogie Betts. I'd still think Moogie Betts trumps it. Hold on a second. One second. Way more. God. Uh-oh. Okay. Oh, no. Go ahead. God. CR. Why?

You were saying mootie bets? Yeah, that was last week. A more indefensible trade because there was no reason to do it. They just didn't want to pay him. And then they gave me away for 10 cents on the dollar. This, we could talk about some of the defenses I've heard. Everybody in my life, not only was there no warning whatsoever, not only was Jalen, the centerpiece of a Janus trade that seemed like it was going to happen a week ago on Monday.

But this was, I think, the first Boston trade ever that came out of, of nowhere, but then had everybody going, wait, that's the trade? What else is in it? Is there a part two? And there just, there just wasn't. So, you know, you start thinking, how does Jalen go for half as much as mid-30s aspiration scandal, Kauai? Right? Your head goes there. That's where your head goes. Kauai hasn't made, Kauai hasn't won a playoff series in five years. Kauai with the Kippers won two playoff series in seven years and missed more games than just about anybody other than Mb the last six, right? The last time we everyone's talking about, oh, Kauai, now Toronto, this is the piece that can push

your money. Kauai lost the fucking first playing game last year to the Warriors, the game I went to. This was like the 2019 Kauai. I just don't think is there anymore. Anyway, so he goes for half as much as him. He goes for less than Desmond Bain. He goes for less than Jared Jackson. He goes for less than Kevin Durant did last year

When Phoenix needed to trade him They got the 10th pick and two movable contracts Just note that his voice broke on Durant there Just if we're keeping a score at home He went for way less than Janus And then during the same day Went for less than Kessler Who played five games last year

For me He'd 5,000 minutes last year He went for Lest than Kessler All right so we have that We have I had Michael Rubin Had his white party yesterday in the Hampton's I know you're invited CR at the RSVP now. I think it was at Lakers training camp, actually.

That was the other way party. So apparently one of the Philly owners was there, and I'm not going to say who. I'm going to take this shit off. Yeah, take that Red Sox hat up. So one of the Philly owners was there, and people were like, what's up with this Jalen trade? And he was just like, we couldn't believe it either, like basically saying, we can't believe we were able to get Jalen Brown for what we gave up. Kirk, I'll start here just on the trade itself, which is a 2021st that seems pretty good.

It's at least the Clippers pick. It might even be like a one through eight Philly pick or one three protected Philly pick. But what would it have cost Philly just to dump the last two years of Paul Georgia's contract? It's somewhere between one first and two, correct? Yeah, it's funny you should ask. They were they were trying to do just that. I think before Darrell left, they were trying to do that. And the answer from what I heard was one solid first.

The better first they have, I think, that wasn't included in this deal. So that's a team like Chicago or Brooklyn, a team that had cap space. Please take Paul George from us. We'll give you these picks to take them. It's a huge plot point here. Because once you start to do that sort of connective math, you start to say, okay, the Sixers won it out of the Paul George business, Paul George Prison or whatever you want to call it, and they were willing to attach a pick. So they were going to do this for whatever you could get back, right?

They were going to do this and to get a finals MVP, a guy who got real MVP votes this season for essentially that package, it really contextualized it. And I love what you did too, because I was doing the same comparative math with the Kessler transaction and the Desmond Bain transaction. You're like, what is going on? What is going on with Jalen value, Jalen Browns? value around the league because it doesn't stand up to any way I would have evaluated his value. I was shocked at the market value had dropped this low, but you're exactly right to call

out the Sixers wanted to get off Paul George in the first place. C.R., I'm sure you were intrigued by the thought of getting rid of Paul George, regardless of who came back. I got no hate in my heart for him. I was incredibly disappointed by the suspension last year and not out of any like moral thing. It's just like, that was just like we were actually, the Sixers were actually starting to put some stuff together when he got suspended. And to have that happens, which is sort of an

elective absence on his part, even though we never really got the full story about it, on top of like all of the load management that either the team and or he were doing for his various injuries, it was just kind of like, I'm tired of watching teams that are like, we're going

to just try and make sure everybody's healthy for that second round series that we have. And it's like, No, actually, you know what? Just give me a good NBA season. How about that? Well, you're going to get it from Jay and Brown. He's going to play 70 games a year and he's going to play 35 minutes a game and he's going to show up night after night. And he's going to be a guy that when Embed's not there can be 20 shots for you and play 38 minutes and play bigger or smaller.

So here's my main question I want to ask you guys. There's a new GM in Philly. Mike Gansy. Yeah. There is a president because Jamir Nelson is the GM. And then there's a new owner in Boston.

And those differing sensibilities, I think, are worth bringing up. I was kind of joking when they put a camera on me and asked me what I thought of this yesterday. And I was like, this does not feel like Brad Stevens made this call.

But I also saw Winhorst yesterday. It was like, this is a trade made under duress. And I just don't understand this. There is no reason why this have to happen on a Wednesday. There's no reason why this had to be the deal. I know that there had been reporting that the Celtics were not getting a lot of what they wanted out of the trade market for Brown.

But is there no, you were talking about going to Tuscano's 48 hours ago. I wasn't going to go. I wanted my dad to go as a representative of the Simmons family. I just thought once the honest thing happens, then it gets out. And then they don't get Yonis because they didn't want to put in extra stuff. than Jalen and two first, which I wholeheartedly agreed with. And then they canvassed the league. There's no trade.

The third year, I think, really hurts with Jalen because it's like $63 million or something. And they were obviously terrified of it. And I think there's two ways to look at this because I, you know, I still have a whole, I want to go through my whole, my stages of process in this trade. But there's two ways to look at it. One is the analytic stuff, which I want to talk about later. We can talk about that after the break. And the other is that they feel like this relationship was unsalvageable and was going to get worse.

And okay, so why is that the case? Well, you have the 2004 to finals MVP Eastern Conference. If they just split those, I wonder if this trade even happens. The fact that Jaylor wins both, that's a little weird. The Tatum Brown thing starts to get a little strange. Tatum gets hurt a year later. That's a complete fluke, right? Jalen takes over the team.

I've talked about it on the pot a bunch of times where he has the car keys and had an awesome season that I've been watching advanced metrics pick it apart, which is fine. I still feel like wins is the most important advanced metric and he showed up night after night

and went against everybody else's best guy and was great. And to me, the fact that they were so desperate to trade him, and by all accounts last 72 hours, they seemed like they were desperate. Like, we got to, this has to come to a head right now. I don't feel like they could put the genie back in the bottle with him

was the take, that we have now opened this door where this guy thinks he's the guy. He's going to come back. We have Hugo. We have Shireman. We have more Pritchard shots. We don't want to be in a situation where this guy thinks he can average 29 points a game again.

We have Tatum who can replace a lot of his stuff, and this is going to get worse, not better. That's the only thing I can think of for the logic of this trait, because everybody's been asking me the last 17, 18 hours. It's not like they had to do this now. They could have waited until the season. They could have waited until February. Whatever happened since the season ended seems to have given them this additional urgency.

And it's maybe some of the things he said, both publicly and privately. The fact that it wasn't a 1A, 1B thing anymore, like I think Jalen probably felt, maybe rightly so after last year, I'm equals with Tatum. And they just wanted to get out of the situation, was my take. Does that make sense?

Is that take, CR? It makes sense. I mean, I like the timeline you built there because another element of it would be Tatum coming back, which was supposed to be this heroic act of selflessness and all that. And it almost seems like

it just kind of threw everything out of balance. And I wonder if Tatum just says, I'm out this year. I'm going to rehab. And the Celtics have a kind of, nobody believes in us feel good. 56 wins.

We got to the second round. We didn't have enough for the Sixers or whoever they lose to. Like, does this even happen? Is Jalen Brown like, well, and then next year we get Tatum back and we're going to be in great shape? The thing that I also go back to

is Brad Stevens is post-seasoning press conference where he was like, we are not going to be playing this way next year. And he seemed way lower on the team than the NBA community at large, where everybody I think was like, pretty cool. You guys really, you competed. And he was like this. I did not like this.

And I guess now we know who he was talking about or what he was talking about because he was probably, apparently, more out on the two Js than everybody else and especially everybody else in Boston. And it's a bet on Jalen, too, that, you know, we can go into what the team will look like next year. But it's a bet that Jalen can replace all the, I'd sorry, Jason Tatum can replace all the Jalen stats and the production and being the number one guy. And then the team around him will fit better than Jalen Brown being told, go over here now. You're not the number one guy anymore. Kirk, you remember?

So I've talked about this before on my pod when I was the first year I was doing countdown when Rudy Gay guys. traded to Memphis. And it became a very important, like, Sloan Conference moment. It became this specific tipping point in the old way we talked about basketball versus the new way. And I was on that show arguing with Magic Johnson, who knows more about basketball than me and has had way more MBA experiences than me. And Will Bond.

Jalen was kind of neutral. And I was arguing, I actually think this trade makes a lot of sense for Rudy Gay. I think he's overrated. Memphis, I think, turned him in a Tashon Prince and McGrievous Vasquez. I forget who else was in it. But the team took off and they ended up making the conference finals because they determined whatever, even though Rudy Gay seems good on paper.

And I remember Magic saying at one point we're arguing about it, you need a guy, you need a closer, and I was trying to be respectful, but I was like, the stats say he's not that good. All the advanced metrics say he's actually not a closer, that you're actually, if, he's your guy finishing games, this isn't great. And that's why they did the deal. So that was this tipping point for that era. Now we're in this different era where even though I voted Jalen fifth for MVP, I voted him first team Ombia, I thought what he did last year was incredible. There are all these like deep analytics now saying like, no, actually he wasn't that good.

So as somebody who's at the forefront of the Song Conference Revolution, where do you stand on the analytics here? It's a great question. So the tension is Jalen Brown now represents this tension. He's going to be the person who gets associated with this. Is this guy, we have them in the, in the ringer 100 bill, is number 14 in the NBA after the season. Estimated plus minus over at Dunstan 3 is one of the best sort of nerdy sites going right now, has him at 87th in the NBA, okay, according to estimated plus minus. So this is, don't shoot the messenger here. That's the tension. All these teams have these models. How impactful is this guy for winning? They measure all sorts of variables from player tracking things we didn't have 15 years ago during that Rudy

gay era. But ultimately, these models hate Jalen Brown as a factor on winning. You can look at just basic on off stuff. The Celtics had a net rating of 6.5 with him on the floor, and that goes to 10.5 when he came out. And the models just start stewing on these facts. But with those models, how much does that depend on did you have a really good bench? Well, it does. You know what I mean? If your bench comes in and is cleaning the clock of the other team's bench, then the on-off step's going to get skewed, which I would always use as my defense for Jalen and Boston. And I want to come back to that bill,

because I do think the real reason here is depth and team building in the second apron era. And I think Brad Stevens, Chris has pointed out, he wants a one-tent poll organization with one giant salary, not two. Because you need to have the Nick Spurs finals. Those are deep-ass teams with dudes who are playing seven, eight, nine, like Jose Alvarado, you need to have that kind of money. And if you have two guys making 35% of your cap in the second apron era,

forget it's Jalen Brown or Jason Tatum. That's just a hard math problem for anybody to solve. And I think that's really at the heart of this thing. I don't think it's about advanced plus minus or anything. It's like, do we really want to have two dudes in their 30s combining to make 70% of our cap and go out and try to beat the thunder and spurs? Yeah, on top of that two of the top nine contracts in the league, just for figure by year, the next three.

And maybe, I don't know, maybe they thought that was unsustainable. But then the counter to that is, well, Paul George makes as much money as being in the crowd, that's the head scratcher. That's the part that doesn't make sense to me. It's like, I get the financial thing. Yeah, you got out of it after one year or not too.

I don't know, CR, that the advanced analytics stuff, and it's weird because I've always been, I think even dating back to the Grantland days, I think we were at, you know, we were part of the forefront of everything that was changing there. And I still believe in the numbers a lot of the time. But I still feel like there's something about durability and somebody who shows up night after night and can be the best guy in a team over and over and accept that challenge. The issue is, if he's not a NBA title two years ago. And they won an NBA title two years ago. I don't know that way. What are we playing for, right? Like I, I know. Look, I'm also somebody who's my favorite basketball. player ever is Alan Iverson, who is also not beloved by the advanced analytics community. I cannot claim to really understand a lot of the stuff out at a certain point.

I think that this is also, as much as it's an analytics story, it's a media story to me. The turning point in some ways in the story publicly, I'm sure privately was much different. Was this Bobby Mark's tweet that went out about an analytics guy, unnamed analytics

guy telling him that Jalen Brown would be like the seventh best player on our team, not like on a in the league. And that really got the ball rolling in terms of this debate coming to the forefront again. This is all going to kind of die down, you know, once all the, on all the smoke clears. But this has just been a fascinating couple of weeks in the NBA where the outside reporting is so speculative, but then like there are pieces of it that feel incredibly well informed. And so going back to Jalen doing live streams and saying like, this was my favorite year of my career,

also had a lot of context. He also says a lot of other stuff, you know, that we don't need to get into. But there's like these little nuggets that then get taken and run with. And the idea that this guy went from a pillar of the franchise to a we need to get him out of here with no deadline contractually league-wide, whatever,

we just have to get him out the door, even if it's to arrival in the division and we're going to have to see this dude multiple times a year. it really speaks to like, I think the tension behind the scenes, but it's so fascinating me because I want to know how much the speculation around it

actually wound up fueling the fire. I have some thoughts and maybe a couple answers on that, but we have to take a break and we're going to come back and I'm going to talk about my stages of grief with the Jalen Brown trade right after this. This episode is brought to you by Mickelob Ultra.

We're in the heart of the World Cup. Look at these. little special bottles for Michelob Ultra. Every play matters here. FIFA World Cup 26. For you, the stakes are just as hot. Michelob Ultra, the official beer sponsor of the FIFA World Cup 26. It's giving you a chance to win $1 million worth of tickets and prizes.

Michaelaub Ultra from the pitch to the poor superiors worth playing for. Enter now at mickelope Ultra.com slash superior access slash FIFA World Cup 26, Mickelow Bultra, FIFA World Cup, 26, Superior Access. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. Residence 21 plus begins on December 1st, 2025. Ends on July 31st, 2026, multiple entry periods. Visit www.micholobulcher.com slash superior access slash FIFA World Cup 26 for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details.

All right, we're back. So in 2004, the Boston Red Sox, in July traded Nomar Garcia-Pera who was the most popular guy in the team other than Pedro. Now, hold on. They traded him for Orlando Cabrera

and they also got Doug Benkevich in that who ended up clinching the ball when they won the World Series a few months later. And this was an incredibly polarizing trade and I wrote a piece for ESPN.com actually kind of defending the trade because they had tried to trade

Nomar, the previous winter in the A-Rod thing. It fell apart. He had to come back and it was weird for half the season. There was some advanced stuff with him that he was slipping defensively, that he was starting to hurt the team a little bit, that he wasn't the guy that he was a couple years before. And they trade Cabrera for him, who was an excellent defensive player and just kind of fit the team better. Everyone in Boston lost their fucking mind. And then it turned out to be a great trade. And Cabrera was one of the many heroes at No 4. If you're a Boston fan, that's the only thing you're clinging to talk to right now.

Orlando Cabrera to yourself. You're just like, ah, maybe this is like the Cabrera trade. I'll give you the stages of the refair. This is like, Orlando Cabrera. It's like, Orlando Cabrera. Please. So I hear about this trade. The anesthesia wears off.

And I'm watching America. I think convincingly, went to nothing, especially because we were playing a guy down for a half hour, including one of the great free kicks of my lifetime. Did you think he was making it, CR? I did not think he was too. I thought he was going to be too close. The goalie did give him a wide side of the right there.

He gave him a little bit of space, but yeah, I mean, that in the red card. I do like the free kicks when it's over on the left, because I feel like you can really blast it. He put so much, yeah, that was incredible. Anyway, I was trying to focus on the game, and I'm in three hours of darkness. Some things I wrote down, because I wanted to. to write down my anesthesia thoughts in real time. New owner cheaped out.

Brad panicked. Tatum demanded the deal. Worst Celtics trade ever. Haven't felt this helpless since they traded for Vin Baker. Those were five things I wrote down during the World Cup game. By the fourth hour, after the game, a little more uplifting after we went two nothing, even though we lost our best player at our team to a bogus red card.

I wrote down, take last year's team and replace Brown for Tatum, Garza for Mitch, because they got Mitchell Robinson yesterday, and Simon's for Paul George. Wait, are we better or worse? Start and get signs of hope.

And then I wrote down, didn't PG play as effectively as Tatum and Brown in the round one series? Looked up his stats, 17 points a game, 55% from three. he at least like was a draw with uh with with brown um and then after five hours and i had some texts i'm trying to get faith i landed on this has to be part one of a second part of a deal

and i think that's where i've landed and i really wonder if the tray murphy piece is going to be the second piece of this because i don't think new Orleans wanted i don't think they wanted jalen brown three more years of him and i wonder if george on a one year one year less with picks and you get Murphy and you get Jordan Pools expiring back and that's the end game here. And now that makes sense to me, Kurt Goldsberg. Does it make sense to you? I had a similar sort of come around this morning. I could feel my face again after I woke up and I was like, okay, Celtics won 56 games. Is that right, Bill last year with this team? So assuming Tatum sort of slides into the Jalen Brown slot. And I'm like, okay, this is a 50-win team, right? But I, but I,

had a similar sort of coming around to it. I'm not sure there is a second move, but that's a great theory. I do think what I said earlier, they value flexibility. The NBA did this to all the teams with this hard cap, second apron situation. Depth has never been more important. The only way to find depth is in the draft with cost-controlled guys. And overpaying dudes in their 30s is the fastest way to erase depth. And there's no shortage of teams that can say that right now. So I think ultimately, yeah, the Paul George thing of it all is still the weirdest piece. Like, okay, all that's true, Kirk, but they brought back a 36-year-old guy with bad legs.

And that disappeared for 25 games last year because he got suspended. So I love your theory. If they can now turn that into Trey Murphy somehow and get Jordan Poole, as you said. So is PG available to get traded immediately? or do you have to wait? Well, here's the thing. The trade doesn't get announced until I think January 6th.

So you have a few days here. July 6th? July 6th? I'm sorry, July 6th. Okay. So you have a few days here to, you know, you can make it a three-team

or four-team or whatever. Now, if they do something resembling the trade I just mentioned, maybe they won't. Now you're replacing Brown with Tatum, Garza with Mitch, and Simons with Murphy. And then you have your younger guys

are a year older and some more Pritchard stuff. And that starts to make sense. If that doesn't happen and this is just the trade and you're going to get a year out of Paul George and then he's a big expiring next year with Picks and you're going to make a move a year from now, there is a world where they tell Paul George, like, you're going to play 49 games this year. And when you play, you'll play like 22, 23 minutes. We're saving you for the playoffs.

We're going to play these younger guys. We want to keep you fresh for the playoffs. We want you to have one round, two rounds, three rounds, whatever, where you'll play bigger minutes. But on paper, whatever Paul George is, whatever we saw, this is where I sound like I'm justifying the trade. I'm not. I'm just saying on paper.

So the way you're justifying is that if there is a hypothetical second move to be made that isn't like we're waiting for Yokic or we're waiting for DeBanza and flag to come up, right? No, it's more like you're using Paul, to get somebody's money back, but ultimately flexibility, which I've been saying in this podcast since the season ended, if they traded Jalen, I really thought it would be for flexibility. That's why I never really liked the Yonest thing, because I thought I put them in the same position they were in before

with these two giant contracts. But with the Paul George piece, and you're looking at it and you're like, all right, maybe we get a year out of him, less minutes, he's a more complimentary player than Jalen. Our chemistry is better. We can find out what we have with you. with Hugo and Shireman, more Pritchard, and we'll patch this together because we did this last year.

And by the way, maybe they're also saying Jaylen wasn't as responsible for last year as he got the credit for, that this was assistant thing, it was depth, it was night after night being able to have 10 guys who were competent, it was the three-point shooting, it was the defense,

and that's the only thing I can think of. If that trade doesn't happen, and PG just comes back, back. I still think that I think the thing they're risking here is the fans in the city. That's right. Paul George is not, I would say he's been a slightly divisive guy over the years. You're risking Jaling going to Philly and Philly being really good right away. You're risking all of the Celtics, whatever the team they have now, not playing as well as they thought they were initially. And you're taking a last year, a feel good thing where everybody liked everybody.

And we're like, wow, this is great. I love this team. I love Joe Missoula. I love Brad Stevens. There's Chisholm. Now, if this doesn't work out right away, you're talking about Chisholm walking to his seats before the game and somebody be like, yo, Chisholm, fuck you.

Stevens going into the thing. Hey, Stevens, fucking train of J-Lan, fuck you. Like, this changes the energy. So they better be right on this, CR. Because you've seen this in Philly. Yes. When the energy shifts in. in the cold weather cities,

specifically Boston, Philly, New York, it can get dangerous. Yeah, and I think that the things that seem to matter to front offices sometimes are just so far apart from what matter to fan bases.

And fan bases, like establishing relationships with guys, they like seeing guys grow up, they like acquiring new stars, they like developing kind of like a rhythm with the team, a rhythm with the way the team plays. Now that can get stale, and you can find yourself as a Phillies fan

and be like, I like these guys, but I've been watching this TV show for 10 years now or whatever. But I think that the danger is flexibility over fandom, you know, flexibility over fandom, you know, and flexibility over who are we putting on a billboard if we're trying to build a new stadium like you guys sound like you are, you know? And I think that that's a real, real dice role.

Furthermore, you know, like for as much as you're like, this could work out if it's Trey Murphy. And there's a couple of ways in we, this could not work out. You know, this could go very wrong. More than a couple. Including Jason Tatum

with coming off an Achilles injury. With like, Georgia 36, Mitch Robinson, who has a big injury history and that they have all these injury variables. Yeah, and a couple of those guys

that you bring up on every podcast, like who I still don't really remember watching play. Like, Hugh, no, I just mean I don't have a lot of like Hugo tape in my head, you know, didn't show up against the sixers.

Like, we're not like ready for prime times. So, like, they are really nice regular season pieces, and they're really nice development stories. But I don't necessarily think they're going to win a second round series for you guys. So, look, I haven't been out of the second round since 2001. So what am I talking about? I'm just saying that, like, there is an element to, if you're counting on, like, another deal making this right or this all kind of coalescing in a way that we just don't understand yet, there's also, like, a negative side of it. There's a bad side of it.

I would say there's a few bad signs. The coalescing, the betting on guys with injury histories, Kirk, the fan reaction to this trade, which is the single most negative fan reaction. Even Mookie Betts, we knew that was coming for like a year. This was, I think, way more contentious. I'm sure Brian Curtis copyright the Now They Tell Us story. I'm dreading the Now They Tell Us for this. The Celtics don't usually operate that.

way. They're not a big leaking after the fact organization. But the big question that they would never answer that if I had a Brad Stevens truth serum where I'm like, you have to answer. I'm going to give you a call and ask me an anesthesia. I'm going to give you a call on anastasyia. This sounds like the beginning of an erotic film. You giving Brad Stevens a call and I'm going. By Adrian Lynde. From Hell Month Return. From hell of his back. A disgruntled. Yeah, and wants answers.

The question I want to know is, were you thinking of doing this right after the season or did this evolve during the offseason? Because my guess, my thought is that pretty much everything Jaywin did from the moment the season ended, pushed them to a place that they decided maybe this was untenable, Kirk. Now, you work for a team. You're always judging the, you're judging the chemistry of the team, you're judging the best guys in the team, the happiness. of the team.

Like the Spurs got Lamarcus Aldridge when you were there. Yeah. One of the reasons they got Lamarcus Aldridge was because it was pretty clear in that last Portland year, he wasn't 100% happy that there was,

Dame was becoming embraced, even though that Portland team was really good. It's one of Zach Lowe's favorite teams. Something was off and then the Spurs ended up getting him. So how much do organizations just think about the non-basket personality shit?

Yeah, that's the, but I kept going to that. I don't think people understand like the human element. When you trade a guy, it doesn't just affect that guy and his family. It affects all the spouses and the kids. And like, now everybody's looking over their shoulders. So I know that RC and Pop were like very, very careful with the trade tool itself. Like, we don't want to blow up the morale. We want to build an element of trust around here.

And again, they had the benefit of a different CBA era where flexibility was, was king and they had players who were taking less money, much like Jalen Brunson, which has enabled the Knicks to find depth this time around. But I think you're right. I think there is a human story here where Jalen Brown had an awkward last few months. I bet there were tensions behind the scene,

and that's one of the only ways I can explain a relatively great front office, making what I consider to be a bad deal to get away from Jalen Brown, is that it must have been very bad behind the scenes, some real tension that we may never learn about. If the Anshonnessy's not going to write it these days, I don't know who will. But like who is, why did this happen from a human perspective?

Because the numbers just don't add up. Like you can do the double ledger here. And it's just like it screams like you started the podcast with. The Boston Celtics just dumped this dude who won finals MVP two years ago. It was a salary dump. To a division rival. Two, their historic rivals, Bill says, one of the greatest rivals the league's ever seen. Well, the thing, I always judge these trades by two things.

A year later, would you be glad or unhappy that you did it? That's one. And then four months later, would the trade still be there? I'm guessing if this trade doesn't happen today, CR, but we get to the beginning of October in Boston. and calls and said, hey, Jalen Brown for Paul George and two picks, you're still saying yes. So why would you do a trade? Why would you do a trade that's going to be there in October now is the best case for they felt like this situation had gotten untenable behind the scenes?

And who knows if Tatum, who's been, you know, and I've heard both sides on this. He hasn't said anything. He never went on the Jalen. This is a big thing in the local radio. He never went on Jalen's Twitch. Like, it is true. He never said anything. Now, the counter would be,

well, if he does say something, then that becomes a story. So he's got to lay back. Does he say a lot about anything? I mean, I don't really think of Jason Tatum as the most demonstrative star. Like, you know, he does a lot of, like,

here's my documentary about my, my rehabilitation for my injury. but there's not like a... It's a lot of carefully crafted docu-series. Yeah, I'm going live on IG to break down the World Cup. I mean, it's just... I know, this kind of stuff is like

what we have replaced reporting with is like looking at at like tea leaves and trying to be like, well, I was going to Twitch. A guy told me. Right. Somebody told me in front of mine. And, you know, I, like,

that's for better and for worse. But I think that my only counter to this, this would be, I don't, now in retrospect, don't think Mike Gansy would have waited. I think this,

the Sixers team was going to get changed. I didn't actually anticipate that. I thought that they were going to run it back and that it was going to be like, this is about cleaning up

whatever Daryl did, and we're going to do some depth stuff, and we'll, we'll draft well, and we'll figure out where we're at. And hopefully Edgecombe develops and we'll be like a five seed or something like that.

And then be, let's just cross our fingers. But now in retrospect, I'm like, oh, this guy wanted to change the face of the team. This guy wanted to strip the paint and make it into his own thing. And, I mean, speaking of reading tea leaves, his brother posted a picture yesterday of Gansy with LeBron in the St. Mary's uniform from back in the day. Which, you know, is probably horseship, but as Tony Jones also reported that the Sixers acquired about LeBron, and if that's the game he wants to play, like, hell yeah, sure.

You know, it seems like other people have had the joy of cheering for LeBron, I'll take it. But yeah, it's, I don't think the Sixers were going to sit around waiting for Jalen Brown. I think this was an opportunistic trade. I don't think Paul George was going anywhere else. We should mention Waz and House and I do the worst contracts draft in the beginning of every March.

We should mention this. Embed was one and Paul George was two. And it wasn't even like, it was basically one of those, the draft starts at three, because we know these are the top two. Now, when we did this, Paul George was under suspension, didn't know if he was going to come back. The Philly thing could not have gone worse and he had two and a half years left on the deal. Now he has two.

But I thought he was really good in the playoffs. I said it over and over again. I thought I was shocked by how well he played. I thought he really bothered Jalen ironically. and there was a lot of clips about this last night of all these different times. He'd locked down Jalen one-on-one. Three-point shooting was great.

Even in the next series, his stats weren't that bad. So that was, I thought the best he's looked in a couple years. Bill, if it's Paul George, I'm not a Paul George fan. And you guys had won, I can't remember what the Sixers streak was, or we were definitely surging,

and Paul George got suspended, Boston would implode. Like, talk radio would be, they would have an FCC violation. Mm-hmm. I want to talk about the Philly piece in one second. This is my last thing on Boston, because I think we covered everything there is to cover from the Boston side.

But the Jalen thing of just being with somebody for 10 years, ironically, 10 years ago was when they drafted him, what they had with him and Tatum together, which led to a title, six conference finals. And I was pretty steadfast all the way through even with the honest thing. I was like, I think this guy's really good at basketball. Like, I don't really care with the stats. I've watched him over and over again.

I just think, like, this is the guy, the bigger the stage, the bigger the event. Like, he's going to be there and he's going to show up. Now, people could counter and be like, well, what happened to the Philly series last year? He wasn't good. Well, why did they fall apart in three of the last four playoffs? I just wonder if we're ever going to see teams stay together like this anymore in the NBA with the way the apron is. This feels, everyone's talking about the advanced metric side, and this is like the end

of a certain era. To me, it's like the different end of an area. You could see it in the contracts that were handed out. One for seven, two for 14, two for 19. Kessler got one of the only long deals we had. All of the middle class, slightly upper middle class, slightly lower middle class, all those guys are on one year and two year deals now. Nobody wants two big contracts on the same team anymore. Utah, who really could have used Kessler, was like, wow, you're offering us all this great take them and then you look at the uh the snow time lakers now with reaves making 45 kessler making 35 and lucca making the max it's like that's your team those are going to be your three guys now so kirk i just wonder like you you mentioned the spurs earlier if we're running back

to spurs now parker gets traded in 2010 he's gone like they're like shit we we have this we got to pay that we got to pay duncan we have to pick between manu and parker parker just had the off-the-court thing that happened with, you know, you could Google it. This is the time. Let's move them. We'll get younger. We'll get a young point card. And guess what doesn't happen? You're not one of the best teams in the league for the first part of the 2010s. You don't make two straight finals and you don't win the 2014 title. So I just wonder, is this the league now where we're the NFL? And it's just a different champion every year. And it's by design. I mean, this is the first time in league history. We've had

eight different champions in eight years. Welcome to the parody era. It is the NFL. And it is a direct byproduct bill of the new CBA that went into effect in 2023. And one of the things that I don't think is good is we're starting to see like beloved characters being dumped like Clay Thompson. Like this guy is going to have a statue. He's going to be a warrior hero, but he gets like dumped. So Jaylen's not the first one to go through this, but it's, it's boring, but it's profound too. the instrument insists on giving the biggest paydays in the league to dudes 31, 32, 35 years old. And then they immediately become toxic assets. They become toxic assets.

We all know, Bill, when do guys peak at the NBA, 28, 29? We watched the finals. It was all young dudes and guys in their 20s. Yeah, I said in Yonis piece last week on the ringer that, like, there were two guys among the 25 most minutes played in this year's playoffs that were 32 and older. This is a young man's game, in part because the CBA makes it nearly impossible to build a good team around these toxic assets. These guys a little past their prime. They're making fucking $70 million. Like, we're reserving our paydays for our guys who are a little long in the tooth.

And building a team around that guy in the second apron era is nearly impossible. And I'm not sure if that's good for the long-term health of these fan bases in the most. morale of these teams. Yeah, go ahead. No, no, finish your thought to Kirk. I'm sorry. I thought it was all embodied by that concept, by the viral video I saw today of a little kid just losing his mind about Jalen Brown leaving the Celtics.

He had a Celtics jersey on. He's bawling and Jailen Braun actually respond to this kid. And it's just like heartbreaking. It's like you forget about that part of the business guys. My daughter. It's a morale business. My daughter who's going, who really became a Celtic fan legit like the last few years and is going through all the stages now of when you become a new sports fan.

Like the Yannis trade and why are they trading Jalen? I don't understand. Why did Miami get Yannis for all this stuff? I've seen all those guys. They're not that good. And then yesterday she's FaceTiming me. And I'm like fucking out of it. And she's like near tears and she's like, I love Jalen.

I'm really mad. I don't understand why they did this. And you think you're dead. And I'm like, I'm, I still, where am I? Is this the afterlife? What were you going to say, CR? I was just going to say that there's a really interesting narrative history of the last 15 years to be written where Mori comes in and introduces a lot of the advanced analytic concepts to the NBA

and changes the way teams are assembled. But was actually... The shame baddie a trade, right? The shame bad for Rudy Gay, it starts. But he is actually, in retrospect, almost like, he's romantic compared to the way the NBA teams are run now. Like, when he was just like, look, I'm looking. at the underlying numbers, and eight out of ten times we beat the Warriors, given X, Y, or Z happening. It was almost like this faith that he had. Then you have like this draft capital craze

that happens, and that's Presti and to some extent the spurs, and you see what happened with those guys. And now it's like, it's Tim Connolly's NBA. And you're just like, I'm just going to, I'm just going to have constant motion. I am going to wheel and deal and cats out the door and Randall is out for the door and Lamello's in. And then if I have to, I'll try and find somebody to take Gobert. and then if I have to, I'll do this. And it's just like this sort of churn that's been happening. The Sixers have been doing this too, where it's like we rent a guy for two years

and then we send him out. But it's almost like these contracts now, I think what Gansy did was really interesting is like all the Sixers deals are pretty much on the same timeline. So regardless of the ages of the players, and Beade Maxie and Brown are all up the same year. So even if this doesn't work out,

like it's not something he has locked this team into for a decade. It's not like, well, now what are you going to do? You've made your bed and you have to lie in it with Jaylon Brown. It's like, no, this is something that was very, very specific to Brown's deal. I don't know if he's going to be like, if you don't give me an extension, I'm out. I think that is going to be an interesting question for a lot of these guys where it's like, I have two or three years left on my deal.

But if you want me to come to your team, we have to like basically redo it. Well, I forgot to say this earlier. I do wonder if that's a piece of this Boston side with Brown was eligible for an extension later in the summer. And if they had said no, how would he react? Well, you took care of Tatum. If Tatum had an extension coming up, you would take care of him. Why not me? And they're trying to avoid all that stuff.

But wasn't it reporting about going the reason why the honest thing, aside from not including Hugo or whatever, like that there was the rumor that he was not going to sign an extension with Milwaukee. and they were like, well, we're not going to trade Yannis and just be back in the situation with another star. Well, I'll go further on that because I have information on that that I forgot to share last week. The Yannis to Boston thing was closer than I think people realized. And I still don't think Hugo was ever in the trade. But I do think it got to the point the Bucks had an arrangement with Yannis that he was basically going to approve the trade. They were going to trade him without him basically signing off on it. and he didn't sign off on the Miami trade for a couple days there.

And they were talking about extensions with the Celtics. And it came down to, it was like two years, 30% of the cap could be the extension or three years, 35. And the Celtics were pretty entrenched at two for 30. And Janus wanted the three for 35 and they couldn't agree on it. And that was when he greenlit the Miami trade. A Miami threw in Yaka Shonas and that's when it happened. So you can even think from the Celtics thinking there, back to what we've been talking about a while.

It's like, can we compete if we have these two giant contracts on our team of guys in their 30s? And they obviously thought no. So they said no. And then they got out of the Jalen thing, which they were desperate to do, obviously, considering the trade. You mentioned in Philly. They have Embeddeed at 57, Jalen at 57, and Maxey, at 41 this year. Embed goes to 6367. Jalen goes 61, 65, Maxi goes 44, 46.

We just take care of our guys. That's all I see it. In year three, you're going to have $1708 million for three guys. And I think this is, you know, I've obviously had a lot of critiques about silver over the last couple of years. It doesn't always please me to do that because I like them and I've had a decent relationship with him. I think the biggest mistake he's made is hammering the second apron thing and basically

taking advantage of the players. I think the players over and over again are just outmatched in these negotiations. They're negotiating against billionaires across the board. They're just going to be outmaned. You're not going to know as much about the future as all of these guys who've made all this money doing whatever. What I don't like and what I think they should put in is the longer you're with the team, you should get some sort of cap and tax relief from it. I've been saying this forever about the Warriors and Curry.

Curry's been on that team since 2009. That should matter. He just shouldn't be a blanket. Curry makes $61 million a year. It should be he makes 61 million, but because he's, for every year he's been with the team, you get a percent off on the cap or the tax or whatever. So he's at a 20 percent discount because I don't think fans want this. I think it's fun for us for content to just watch guys ship around and watch Lamello leave Charlotte,

watch Randall leave Minnesota, Jalen Brown. It's fun to just watch everybody move around. But I don't think it's, I don't think it's good for the league. I don't think I, I care about the shit like the fact that Bert and McHale played their entire careers together. I just feel like that. Yeah, I feel like that. Yeah, I think that, you know, if you're looking for one reason to understand why Jalen

Brown is on the Sixers today, it's the second apron. It's the current CBA. And I don't think this might have happened under the previous regime. And I do think it's worth thinking about that for the long-term health and sort of macroeconomic shaping of the NBA at large. And, you know, I wrote about it with the honest last week because I think that was a huge part of what's going on there. And you just alluded to it with the Boston and Miami sort of negotiations there.

Like this is the three point line was the dominant game changing artifact of the 2010s. The hard cap second apron is the equivalent in the 2020s. It's changing the game, but it's happening in the front office as opposed to on the court with shot selection. And I think the teams that learn how to do that. to use it the most and learn how to navigate it are going to be the most successful. And right now that means, Bill, first round picks are way more valuable than they were. Young talent on cost control is a lot more important than it used to be.

And like I said earlier, a 33-year-old bit who's not living up to the $70 million we're giving them is the most toxic asset in the NBA potentially. And you're talking about it with Embed. Unless you're Toronto, then you're excited. Then you're pulling up stuff for it. Yeah, but that train's fine. There's nothing to see here. Yeah, nothing to see here.

He just had to leave the country. How much does you get paid again? Did you see, uh, Kauai at the Blue Jays game? Oh, God. It was like Michael Corleone returning to Sicily. It was just like unbelievable. He was there for eight months.

It was like he filmed one movie and was just out making the next one. Um, look, I remember writing about this at my book in the late 2000s, about the 80s teams that we had, the Lakers, Sixers, Celtics, and Pistons. And why those teams would kind of never happen again, because it was so easy to circumvent

the cap, pay guys, keep guys together. And we all romanticized that decade because we got all these guys to stay on the same teams. And when Detroit traded Dantley for Aguier, that was like a cataclysmic trade. People were like, oh, my God, they traded Dantley. The Lakers in the mid-80s almost traded James Worthy for. I think it was worthy for Tarpley and a draft pick or something and backed out at the last minute. But we had moments like that, but they're always about basketball and not the other stuff.

And that started a shift over the next 30 years. We saw free agency change. You talk about these different areas. Free agency changed it in the 90s because once the guys were on the younger, on the shorter contracts, you could see people like Stefan Marbury be like, yeah, I want my own team. And he, Minnesota had him for three years. they had to trade them. Golden State had C-Web for one year they had to trade them, right?

Then we moved in the 2000s, and it was about these longer deals that really were able to help a team like San Antonio that could build around Duncan, who was great. But then... But if you had a bad GM, they destroyed your franchise for a decade. You were done for half a decade. Yeah, you were done for five years.

2010's three-point shooting changes everything. And then this decade, it's second apron. And C.R., like, I really don't think we'll see a team go back to back for a long time. And even like Duran and Golden State in 16, I don't think could have happened with the way we're doing this now. Yeah, I mean, especially if you add the injuries that we're seeing and the kind of and the wear and tear that's happening to the players. It just doesn't seem like a guy like Tatum who by all accounts takes

care of his body as well as anybody in the league, you know, Halliburton. Like these these injuries are destroying franchises for not only the playoffs that they're in, but the year after. I'm trying to, it's a really good point about the way that the league was built was by creating these long-term relationships. And now I think that you've replaced that with the dopamine hit of the transactional nature of the NBA, which is like really fun to talk about and really crazy to just be jacked into the matrix all day long, waiting for signs that so-and-so is going here or this plane landed there. But I don't know if it's super good for the league. You know, I don't know. I mean, like, fandom itself has become a lot more individual. I don't think people are like, I have grown up and decided to dedicate my life to the Steelers or the Timberwolves or the Nuggets.

Like, I think they're a little bit more like, I like this guy. I like. It's player-centric. Yeah. I like LeBron. Where's it going? Oh, he's on Denver now? I'm going to roof for us.

I would not be surprised if next season there's just like a ton of buzz about Minnesota just because Lamello has like a real fandom among younger NBA fans, you know? but I don't know. I just don't know if it's like totally great for the long term. Like is the NBA going to exist in 25 years? I don't. I honestly, it goes back to everything being financially driven, including like the fact that they want to expand,

which I think is I've talked about over and over again. The last thing we need is two more teams. The fact that everybody has a chance, which is how the NFL was able to grow all the value of their teams, right? It didn't matter if you're, in Cincinnati, Seattle, New Orleans. Everybody had a chance to win the Super Bowl

and you were never bad for more than a couple years. And now we're back in that. I'll say one more thing about Jalen. And then I really want to talk about the Lakers just because I want to cheer myself up because I thought what they did was abhorrent yesterday. Can I just ask you one more thing before you do your eulogy for this? So I think the Sixers are better than they were yesterday morning

and I think the Sixers are in a position where if this goes well, and if Embed gives you, if he's on the Paul George, 45 games be healthy for the playoffs. I think this team is way better situated to function during the regular season with a rhythm. Especially if Phylon comes through. Yep. If you have a bench. And Dean Wade is not a bad pickup.

Like that's like, there's a starting lineup that the Sixers have that I think is among the best in the Eastern Conference right now. Well, you know what else you did, Sierra? You turned Paul George into Jalen Brad. That was,

I keep forgetting that. I keep forgetting that. I was really locked in on Belgium, you know? Like, Like you had Paul George And that's a day I have And now you have Jaila Brown And look you know what Jalen's got a lot of good ideas I'm really open to them

Well one of the things So I had to obviously Philly did great in this But one of the things that I really like about the team As you know I'm a durability guy VJ Maxie Jalen Brown Those guys fucking play Yeah you know who that also cares about durability 40 minutes a game

Nick Nurse Because he likes playing guys 45 minutes the game in February But you're basically, you've turned Embed into the like the proverbial all-time luxury. If he plays awesome. If he doesn't play, I think you're okay. I think you can patch together rebounds and rim protections and be, you know, not a catastrophe. But you're going to have these three guys night after night who are going to be playing a combined 105 minutes.

And, you know, VJ is going to be way better next year. That was the first thing the Celtics asked for was VJ and Paul George and Sixers were like, No thanks. Yeah. We're going to keep BJ. Blow up I-95 than do that. Right. I mean, really what you want, and this is why the Celtics valued, Hugo so much,

is having these perimeter guys who are two-way guys on cheap deals is the single best lecture you can have right now. I think the Sixers are going to be good. It's interesting with the Celtics title odds were six to one. Really for the entire off-season, they're now 13-1. they are for 50 plus wins on Fanduel, do you think they are a minus or a plus on that bet for your bet in the Celtics to win 50 plus games?

I'm going to say a plus, but I'd be tempted. I think the bones are so good, Bill. You're going to tell me the price. If it's a plus, I'm in. Minus 135. So, and conversely, the Lakers are plus 200. to win 50 plus games. Now, is that with Confederate currency or with...

Sorry. They're moving back to Minneapolis. The thing with the Celtics, I think they're still going to be good next year unless the city is so mad and so focused on how much they hated this trade that it gets a little black cloud over it. So I think one of the reasons that did this trade

was what happened in 2019. when it was like on paper, look at this team, Hayward's back. We have Tatum and Brown and Kyrie and Al Horford and we're going to be awesome and the egos and all that stuff never. And I think that was part of the fear and what leads to this trade.

But I also think that could happen this year because of the energy of the trade and people just being mad. If Philly starts out going like 18 and 3 and the Celtics are like 9 and 9 and Tatum's having leg issues and there's a couple different scenarios rest of here, we're like, oh, my God. It's also a complicated thing for Stevens to sell to his fan base because to make it

sound like he's really excited about this trade, he's going to have to sort of denigrate Brown on the way out. You know what I mean? Like, I think we got better. I mean, it's a very, very, very delicate dance here. Yeah. All right. Jalen Brown quickly, 2004 champion.

Yes. Indiana series made the shot in the corner, which was one of the great Celtic shots of this century. He was awesome. Dallas series defending Luca going two-way. His game three, I think he has 30 in game three. They're up two nothing in the series. And both of them together really took it. And that was like the platonic ideal of the Jays together. It was like, you want to see what they wanted. Those two guys in that Dallas game is the perfect part, Kirk. I'm glad you brought it up.

I was just going to add like on a team with Derek White and Drew Freakin' Holiday, who did Joe Missoula? Yeah, who did Joe Missoula used to guard Luca Donchich in that series? Jalen Brown. And that's why he won finals MVP. You know, he had a slightly more efficient shooting series than Jason Tatum. But it was the defense bill he called out. He is a serious defender and was more than capable in that series against Luca Donchich.

And if he, if Tatum wins finals MVP, I think all of this is a lot easier afterwards. Jalen gets the ECF. Tatum wins the finals MVP, which I think he should have. I said it at the time. I don't understand why he didn't win it. But I think the problems probably start there. Anyway, Jalen was amazing for the city.

He showed up all the time. However, if you ever got weird off the court, never saw it on the court. I thought he was reliable. There was frustrating things about him, which you get frustrated by everybody when you watch them play basketball for 10 years, right? But I just thought he was an awesome.

You said he was an incredible guy in the community, too. It really was. And honestly, that was the same thing for Mookie, too. Like, you don't get a lot of these, the people that can bridge all kinds of generations and all kinds of different things that really seemed to care about giving back, and he was one of those guys, too.

C.R., you want to stay for a quick Lakers hit? Sure. Okay. They gave Kessler four years 130 after giving up first in 2013. in 2013 and swaps in 2830. They signed Grimes and Mamu for 4 for 60, 4 for 52. They let Kinnard go and sexting for 2 for 19.

A guy that Charlotte, which was like a 9thead, was like Kobe White's a major upgrade for us. They have Kessler, Mamu, Luca, Reeves, and sexton, I think as the starting lineup, in Ait and Grimes, Vandy and La Ravia coming off the bench and Brani, if I want to throw him in there for fun. I'm just dumbfounded Kirk.

Yeah. You're locked into this team now that I don't think has any chance to beat, not only San Antonio, not only OKC, but probably not Utah, probably not Minnesota. Even if Luke is averaging 35 a game, I just don't see how this is defensively a team that could hold up multiple playoff rounds. I just don't get it.

So explain it to me. Kirk had so much trouble explaining it that his computer froze. You go CR and we'll go back to Kirk. This team feels a lot like the 24 Mavericks and it feels like a team that was built by Luca for Luca based on what he wants to play with

secondary ball handler and Reeves. A big guy who protects the rim and I guess can flush it although I haven't seen a lot of Kessler over the years. I know he's a really good room protector but it's just a strange thing when all the word coming out of the Lakers was Mark Walters is here,

we're going to have the front office from the future. And Polenka's still there, and he's making deals basically based on what his star wants, right? I mean, that's just my read superficially. What do you think? I thought they need to get him to sign an extension, right? Obviously, he's signing off on all these moves. This is what he wants.

He wants a defensive rim protector. guys around the rim and want shooters around him. The part I don't get is the lack of a defense of anybody. I still don't know who's, is Quinn, you watch Quinn Grimes for a couple years. He's fine.

He's your lockdown defender. Cool player. Yeah. Who's guarding SGA on your team? Right. Who's guarding Anthony Edwards? What do you do when you play Anthony Edwards and Lamello together?

Who's guarding Jamal Murray? I just have, oh, Kirk's back. I just have a slew of questions. CR, we were talking about the holes that this Laker team has, Kirk. And this feels like a team Luca built for Luca's purposes. Yeah, for Luca to get awesome stats. Yeah, I don't like this team at all as a guy lean spurs heavy. Nothing's making me shake in my boots here.

We talked about ownership earlier. There was top bill like when Mark Walter and the Guggenheim Bros. BROs bought this team for $10 billion from the bus family, that they were going to turn in the Dodgers of the NBA and be the smartest, most aggressive team in the league. This doesn't feel like that to me. They have spent a lot of money on Austin Reeves, on Mamu, and now on Quentin Grimes.

But yeah, like I said, this is a franchise that expects to win NBA championships. I don't see this roster competing for championships against a thunder team that's going to be pissed off, a Spurs team that's going to be better, and then all the teams in the East that seem to be getting good. I wonder whether or not the long-term play here for the Lakers is to swoop in on a disgruntled Boston president

and make him the front office. Brad Stevens? Wow. After Chisholm made him trade his beloved Jalen Brown, Brad Stevens puts himself up for front office free agency and joints liquor. I really doubt Chisholm made them do anything. If anything, if anything, I'm just screw it out.

No, no, I'm saying like, if anything, I think he's probably guilty of maybe should have thrown his body in front of the trade versus telling them they had to do something. The bigger question for me, Kessler, four years, 130 played five games last year. I like him.

Like he's a rebound in block. There's good advanced metrics. Should any center with the current setup we have other than Wembe be making more than like $29 million a year? Is it defensible? Like the Celtics are paying $20 million total for Mitchell Robertson, Garza, and Keda. Right?

And Kada has some extension coming next year. But it just feels, really easy to get bodies, even hook 40 on the Knicks. Like, did you get him, Sierra? We did. I don't mind him for 15 minutes a game. I feel like there's a lot of those guys and is the difference between somebody like that or, you know, the Lakers are paying $41 million for Aiton and for Kessler next year.

How is that a winning formula? Counterpoint, as a Spurs guy, watching the Luke Cornett minutes in the last two or three rounds of of the playoffs. We were holding on for dear life. Right. Luke is a good player. Like, no disrespect to Luke Cornett.

But yeah, like if you have a really good, solid backup, like the ability of Oklahoma City to have hard scene and or Chet out there. I think it is very valuable. Obviously,

there's a guy in Denver that's worth a ton of money who plays the center position. But yeah, I like some of these dudes. But I was count yoga. I don't even know what position.

he is. I guess he should count in that wimby thing, but I, yeah, you could tell me he's any position and whatever. But Kessler, this is a massive overpay. Let's not lose sight of that. This is almost like a Rudy Gobert deal, but Rudy was like a multiple defensive player of the year. Orpenter at the time. And he is impactful. If you have Rudy Gober and he's age 31, you're going to be a top five, top 10 defense automatically. And that's been the side of the court. The Lakers have been trying to build for years. But you said it in passing your durability. guy. The biggest question with Walker Kessler is, is he going to play more than five games? Is he going to play 20 games? He's been struggling with the same shoulder thing since college.

So it's a huge risk on a player that hasn't sort of demonstrated that durability, let alone the competence to be a dominant center in the Western Conference bill. Yeah, and you could see like Portland, I was really surprised they didn't want to make Klingin the best guy in a Jalen Brown trade. Yeah. You know, it's different than the Hugo situation where Hugo was being treated as a throw-in in that trade, I value him. Klingin is the main piece to get Jalen Brown. Probably isn't holding me back, but

I don't know, Sierra, maybe teams are looking at this is like, if Kessler is going to make 4-4-130, and Klingan can do a Kessler impersonation for $9 million a year, maybe that's one of the best assets you can have. I also think, I wonder of Indy. But that's where you get

into, like, was Luca Danchich, like, yeah, you know, just get whoever you can get for $9 million. I'll make him work. No. Well, they had Dandre Aitin and obviously weren't happy about it. I mean, Aiton's a very specific proposition, but like it sounds like this was a team. Like I said, that's been built instantly to suit Luca's preferences. And his preferences were obviously like a 2024 Mavericks, even maybe even earlier vintage of that Mavericks team where he's got a diving, like rim running center, a secondary ball handler and shooting everywhere. And then let's worry about defense when it's time to worry about defense.

So you think Indiana who gave up two first for Zubots and basically a 50-50 chance that one of those picks was going to be five through nine in this draft and then it came up tails. But Zubots on a way better contract than Kessler and the price for these guys is two first. So you think Kevin Pritchard was going to the office today like, hey, I told you guys. See that Kessler deal? It's a little more defensible. I still do you agree with that curve? or not. Yeah, I think that's a good cop. I mean, they played like Russian roulette with that, that lottery pick and lost.

And I'll always remember that deal with, but, dude, I don't, I don't know what the Lakers are doing. I don't care about Kevin Pritchford right now. By the way, I do love to, I can't wait to watch the Pacers next year. No, no, no, there's nothing there, but what are we doing? What are we doing with Walker Kessler? We're the Los Angeles fucking Lakers, dude. Like, we go after George Mikan and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Shaq, like, and Anthony Davis, by the way. Like, what are we doing? Walker Kessler? How much are, we're the fucking Lakers?

Like, where is that swagger? And, like, we don't get Walker Kessler. We get, you know, Nicola Yokic. We get the biggest guy available. And it feels like they took a lot of their own flexibility out with all that draft capital bill. So I just. Yeah. I know it's a small sort of silver lining for your day yesterday with your colonoscopy and the Jalen Brown.

They started out great. But the Lakers seem to have fucked their up their future a little bit, in my opinion. Sierra, if Utah's willing to trade Kessler, I think Utah is one of the smartest teams we have. That would make me nervous. Why are you trying to trade them? You're this young rebuilding team. You already have a ton of picks. I have the same feeling.

I'm very excited about the Jalen Brown trade. I have the same feeling about trading with Brad Stevens. I'm like, I really hope that Brad Stevens just like hit his head and this is what's happened because like I don't want to be on the wrong side of these deals. I also, Verno made a really good point that I happen to agree with, which is like it's very strange that that's the market

for Walker Kessler and Jalen Dern can't find a job. Yeah. Well, this goes back to my question about should any center except for Wembe and Yokage if he is a center. I guess he is, we'll count him as a center. I feel like he's like point guard on offense. I don't know what he is on defense.

But Jaylen Duren paying him $40 million a year, I just think is prohibitive to everybody. If he gets that, God bless him. But it feels like 25 to 30 is the range for guys like that that are like good centers, but they're not game changers. And then I guess, Yonis, if you consider him a center, which I wouldn't. So Utah has Triple J marketing, Bailey, Peterson, George,

and then Sensible, Philopowski, Collier. So they took a step back from maybe, oh, wow, could this team be a 60th if Peterson's good? I do wonder if they would have taken Boozer if they knew that this Kessler trade was sitting there. I wonder if that changes the dynamics of that at all. I like the front court. It's a little closer.

So you like it with what they have it. I just think if I'm doing the Kessor thing, I think I would just rather have boozer. But we'll see with Peterson. They obviously they were all in on them. Wait, did it cross your mind yesterday, too, with Danny Ainsh, who's a main character in Boston history, would he have done this Jalen Brown deal?

Because it's interesting that Danny's fleecing the Lakers, in my opinion, on the same day that this Jalen Brown thing is going down with Brad Stevens. I think Danny would have traded Jalen a year ago. when Tatum got hurt. He would have been like, here's a soft rebuild. I think he would have completely blown it up.

And I think he would have traded him. And I think he would have thrown away last year completely. And probably been proactively a year or too soon on it. I mean, the bigger question is, was there even a Jalen Brown trade last year? You know, I don't know what was available last summer. But, well, so Lakers, we're all confused by that. not to mention

a team with three white guys three. I had a team that's being led their three best players are way. I had this great email. I got to find it from somebody who went back over the course of history. This is from Jason Downey. It's from J.D. Vance.

J.D.V. in Washington. No, Jason Downey said, the last time a team with three white guys is their best guys won a championship was 1958 St. Louis. If you go two white guys, Bird and McHale or Cowans and Honda, can Luca, Reeves, and Kessler overcome three quarters of a century of NBA history?

No. Yeah, I'm going to go, no. That's a no for me, dog. See if Fando will put that up. Snowtime Lakers. So then the Southex can currently get Mitch Robinson yesterday for three for 47, which I thought was a great deal. The Knicks would not go over the second apron for Mitch. They've spent a lot of money over the years.

We've seen title teams do this, Kirk. 2011 Dallas, most famously, with Tyson Chandler, where they're just like, nope, won the title holding the line. We want flexibility. 2008 Celtics with Posey was another decent example of just didn't want to head into all the tax shit. Nuggets, right? Didn't they do that kind of with Brucey B? I guess probably there was no way they could match that.

Yeah, they basically got poison pilled with them. There was an Areza Lakers situation when he got hot in the finals, they let him go. Defensible or no to you that they let Mitch go? I mean, it's the theme of our podcast in an extent. It's like this is a hard cap world. Like, we're living in a hard cap world. Unless you're the Cleveland Cavaliers last year, the only team that dared go over this rule, the second apron. I don't think they had much of a choice, Bill.

I do think, you know, as somebody went to the NBA Cup last year and watched Mitchell Robinson essentially beat the spring. that was like a premonition for for for how the finals will go my opinion he's just such an important part of their culture uh that bench unit that i think got us from the tibs era to the mike brown era and obviously got us to a title level but depth is very very expensive in the modern NBA uh and this is exactly what we can can can start to see from a title team like yeah your second best center uh is gone and to your team i think it's a great addition uh for a team that's struggle with rebounding down the stretch and some of those playoff losses. Mitchell Robinson is one of the best rebounders, if not the best rebounder in the league right now,

and he showed it in big moments. So I like it for Boston. I'm not surprised to see New York not being able to afford that many good players. C.R., I'm not going over the second apron and getting crippled by all these different things for my seventh or eighth best player. I'm just not doing it. I just think everything is like context. If, like, if Sam Presti did this, everybody would be like, ah, see, he knows.

But it's James Dolan, so they're like, cheap skate. Like, God damn, how can you not bring Mitch back? You know, like, it's... James Dolan was riding such a high after the title and then the speech came out that he gave to the team. And if he had just gone away to, like, Australia right afterwards, he'd still be riding a high. I know, but it's like... It's the same kind of thing, you know, like, I think we're giving Tim Connolly the benefit of the doubt because he's a really good GM with the Lamello trade.

I know that you didn't like it, but he obviously had his reasons, but then people are like, what is Tom Dundan doing with Portland? Why do they have five guards? You know, like everything is just sort of about like the sort of narrative architecture around it. That was my favorite Jalen trade

and the one I was reading for it was. Blazers? Yeah, with Drew Holiday coming back, Kamara and a couple picks and just call it a day. And I think that would have accomplished a lot of with Paul George thing is, but obviously Portland didn't want them. And that's the recurring theme over and over again. Yeah, people just were turning down Jailom left and right.

Portland was really sticky with those young players with Milwaukee too, Bill. And then when you add in the fact that Yannis, I don't think, would have wanted to extend in Portland. But yeah, I heard that they were not willing to part with their young talent in either deal. But, yeah, it would have been better to get younger if you're the Boston Celtics, but they instead got older. Do either of you have the Lakers as a playoff team, or as a playoff team?

Yeah, I think so because I think they'll be a good regular season team. So if they're all healthy and if they don't suffer like two months hamstring luka, you know, I think that they will play well on a night tonight. Hamstring luka. Yeah. Hamstring luther or calf strain, Luca. Bill sent me on the wild goose chase about calf strains and hamstrings last year. And I do think that's the right thing to bring up. Like, that's no small assumption at this point with him or Austin Reeves.

But yeah, if Luke is playing, they're a playoff team. If they lose two of those three guys for any significant amount of time, I think it's going to be quite difficult. Lucas plus 650 now for MVP on Fando. Wembe's plus 210 is the favorite. Because Wembe, SGA, Yokage, Janus, Edwards, Tatum sixth. Jalen Brown, still 100 to 1, CR. You're talking about the all-time F-U season by somebody.

I just maxi throwing in maly oops the entire game there's a dark side of this lakers season though that maybe I'll have to grab onto as I search for answers and happiness um collided toronto for ingram and dick and two firsts and 31 and 33 and a 27th slot is it just crazy that he's that they were allowed to do this before they settled this entire investigation it is it's just crazy yes

Well, I've heard this. So what would Adam, would he just say you're not allowed to make a trade? I think it just would have been like it would make the investigation a little bit more expedient, if possible. Like, throw a couple more lawyers at this thing. Like, whatever it is, whatever you're going to decide, like, it seems strange that the main character of this controversy is now allowed to go to Toronto. And is this is, like, I've seen people say this is kind of almost a shame. shadow punishment, you know, or whatever. We're basically...

I don't believe it either, but... Yeah. I just find this incredibly strange that this was allowed to happen. Can I give you some Kauai stats? Okay. It was interesting watching everybody talk about it. I'm like, this is the missing piece for Toronto. Now they can make the finals.

We just get sports amnesia sometimes with guys. Kauai played for the Quippers for seven years. In the bubble in 2020, they lost in round two. and seven to Denver, they blew a three-on lead. 21, they made the West finals. He broke down halfway through round two. So basically he had only won two playoff series up to that point. 2002, no playoffs because he's hurt.

2003, lost in five to Phoenix. He broke down in game two. That's round one. 2004, lost in six, round one to Dallas. He played two games. 2025, lost in seven to Denver. 2006, lost the first playing game to the Warriors. at home where they blew a big lead.

And he was terrible in the second half. He's played 11 playoff games in the last five years. The last time he was part of a winning playoff series was May 2021. Why are we talking about this guy like it's the 2019 Kauai in his back? He's not that guy anymore. I don't care.

I know he was good. I voted for him for second team NBA last year. But as we talk about over and over again, regular seasons here, playoffs are here. And he hasn't shown up in the playoffs for the entire 2020s. He hasn't made it. So why is it going to be different this year, Kirk? It's not going to be different, but here's why. It's the same shit that makes Jalen look bad

relatively. These models, like the estimated plus minus, which is a great tool. But if you look at it right now, Kauai is always a top five, top six player in that list. But to your point earlier, durability is a skill. And a lot of times these models, like, fail to account for the simple fact that you have to play a lot to be a great NBA player. I think Julian Champany. You're almost better at playing 10, 15 games less a year, so you look better in the models. Well, that's like what Paul George looked great in the playoffs after he got his 25-game break. And I do think that's one of the reasons the league is skewing so young is like Julian

Champany played over 100 games of NBA basketball this year. Like, and many of them in the playoffs. Like, this is insane what we're asking these athletes to endure. and many of their bodies just simply can't handle it. Disproportionately, older bodies with pre-existing injuries like Kauai Leonard. So I'm not surprised. I would bet very strongly he won't survive another grind like he did in 2019. By the way, it wasn't 100% then either when they won at all,

but he was seven years younger than he is coming back. He was really good last year. They lost the first playing game to a team that then lost by like 20 in the second game, CR. My take away from this transaction is just that the

Clippers have returned spiritually to the pre-Lob city era. That this Derriss, Garland, and Brandon Ingram almost

feel like pre-Lob City Clippers to me. And I appreciate that. Maybe that is the Clippers punishment.

We're back, baby. As Brandon Engram. Yeah. Yeah. So the Clippers traded Kawhi Hardin and

Zubots. They got Garland and Wogler back. Ingram. Mathrin, I guess. Yeah. Grady Dick.

Truly pre-lobs these clippers, yeah. Grady Dick is about as 04 clippersy as you're going to get Isaiah Jackson, three and protected first, one swap. Way more cap space. I'm still not sure why they didn't get involved in the J-Lan thing, but what do I know? I am still confused why Kauai was so excited to return to Toronto. And I do think this is, if I ever did another basketball book, this would be another great NBA

what if he just stays in Toronto. He could have stayed with Siakum, Ananoi, Lowry, Van Vuit, Powell, Gasol, and Abaka in 2020, and they probably would have gone back to back, would be my guess. Instead, he jumps to the Clippers, forces them to trade SGA

and all their picks, aspiration scandal. Kirk, he won four playoff series in Toronto and two with the Clippers. That's wild. As part of the front office that sent him to Toronto, know, it's almost a full circle moment.

Don't trade great players to your rivals. Like I remember the Lakers were calling us in 2018, can we get Kauai Leonard from you? And Pop was like, fuck, no, we're not trading our best player to the team that we think is a real threat to our championship hopes over here. And, you know, so we sent them to the Eastern Conference, Toronto, where it's for many reasons. but one of them was like, we're not here to help our rivals in Los Angeles. But one of the things, Bill, we knew back in 2018, he was going to end up in L.A. a year or so later. He was going to go to Southern California.

So I'm actually kind of surprised, given that the emotional reasons he wanted to be back in Southern California, that now he's back in Canada. Of all of this stuff, it's like, dude, I thought you wanted to live in L.A. Like, I thought that was the whole thing. It does. Yeah, and he was living like an hour and a half outside of L.A. too. and seem like you love being in California. It does, I can,

conspiracy bill has, has done some deep dives. I'll just say that. Conspiracy bill has, I'm like, who's doing the aspiration scandal? It's like, we're working on it.

We're going to be our verdict. Conspiracy bill's going to look at this over the course of the summer. This spring, denim gets a softer, lighter update. Introducing old Navy's drapey denim wide leg, a new fit that moves with you. It's everything you want denim to feel like for summer.

Easy, breathable, and effortlessly cool. With a fit that creates natural movement and a wide leg that feels modern, not overwhelming. Plus, that signature, wait, for this price, moment. Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg. All right, quickly, LeBron. Last year, right? Like, this is great. Here we are.

Here we are 15 years later. We're still waiting for LeBron. Yeah, I read a Brian Curtis trade rumors piece. how we said we're in the trade rumors era for Grantland. 2014 he wrote it was 12 years later. And it was a very, a piece that saw the future in a lot of different ways, including that we're probably going to be here for the rest of our lives with LeBron. He decided not to return to the Lakers.

Okay? Yep. I wrote down, he decided not to return to the Lakers. Like I decided not to return to ESPN. I thought that was funny. Anyway, We all knew where this was going. And he left.

Where is it going? Well, with him not being on the Lakers. Yeah, but like where is this? For six months. Because first of all, I just have to say of our Ringer podcast network colleague, Rich Paul, it's been doing a wonderful job.

The Ringer's Rich Paul. Having all of us play a game of clue about, you know, with like he wants to go somewhere that has both good indoor and outdoor golf, you know? And it's like everybody is like looking up top golf like locations across the country. Well, he wants.

he wants winning and he wants to be happy. Sure. Sure. Cool. Wouldn't I guess that? I find this fascinating. I almost find it kind of fun. You know what I mean? Like, we're not going to get to do this that many more times,

probably ever with him. So I'm down to go one more last time. We're on the carous carousel. Kirk, I'm going to make a prediction. Yeah. I think this goes on for a lot of the month because it will get stories day after day and conjecture and podcast,

content when podcasts are dead in mid-July after everybody has gone with wherever. I just think this might my guess with this keeps going and going. Something and I've seen and we did I did something with Zach about it on Sunday. Where could we go? And I thought St. Antonio made the most sense, but they signed Tobias Harris. So that's not happening. Denver is a team that I think we always thought it would be fun to see him.

And Yokic together is no history there. I haven't seen this possibility mentioned yet. Hold on your seats. What if he doesn't pick anybody until like January, February range? Oh, the Roger Clements. Yeah, what if he just says, you know what? I'm going to take my time with this one, guys. I want to watch the league.

I'm going to play golf for the next six months. I'm going to stay in shape. I want to make like a February, March, April, May, June run, a five-month sprint. I own every single record there is to own right now. It's not like I'm playing for maybe, did he get to 40,000 points? I don't even, he has so many records. I don't even know what the records are anymore. Does he just say, you know what, I'm going to wait.

I'm going to wait to see who's more unhappy with their team in December and January and early February. And I will just have people keep talking about this for the next six months. I think it's in play. What do you think of that idea? I think that that would be a sensational media story. And given, now I think that there would be some resentment that would build up of like LeBron's holding

league hostage and all this stuff. But the idea of him being like, let's see who's surging in January and I will come in as like the great arm off the bench, you know, and if anybody can keep himself in playing shape,

it's him. It's the Roger Clemens move, as Kirk said. Yeah. I'm still here. I'm still in me an awesome shape. I don't care about regular seasons anymore. I'm going to pop in and out

with somebody for four or five months. And also I think that it's worth noting the math on like, who would he be offending if he did this, right? Like, he's played for several different teams, as we've talked about over the course of this pod, like the state of rivalries and there are no go zones and the NBA is kind of falling apart. So yeah, like, why not? If Denver's rolling, I could see him go to Denver, but in January, you know, like if...

Well, especially if the market's not as robust as maybe they're pretending it is and he's looking at lower than mid-levels or... So the only thing I think this would do is that if he does announce that this is his final season, which I guess everybody is assuming, that this would kind of diminish the victory a lot. Or maybe he hasn't decided that at all. We don't have any intel on that. One of the reasons I've always thought he was going to go to the Warriors is I thought

it was going to be a two-year deal lined up with Curry and lined up with Kerr. And they'll be, I was calling it the expendables, but they'll just sell out everywhere. and it would be this kind of appreciation two-year tour combined with the fact that they'd be pretty competitive if they could get everybody to stay healthy at the same time in April and May. But that didn't happen right away. So I'm wondering why.

Because I think the Warriors were ready for it to happen. And now it's on hold. So the Miami thing makes no sense to me. I think that would be so weird. You're going to have Bam and Janus and LeBron. all the, like, what is that team? Are you winning a title with that? Also, Pat Riley basically, like,

called him out when he was leaving in 2014 and was basically, without saying it, saying, like, you're taking the, not cowardly way out, but you're, you're bailing on this after one loss. What is LeBron playing for? Like, what is LeBron playing for financially?

And what is LeBron playing for emotionally? Is he playing? He's playing to compete, which is weird, because he was just on a team of Luca, who we have as a top five or six Bringer 100 guy, and Reeves, who's a top 35 to 40 guy. So it's not like he couldn't have competed on the Lakers. It's just the real issue is you can't compete

if you're paying a 41-year-old guy at $50 million a year anymore. So he has to wrap around his head, like, where am I in this current ecosystem? I can't be one of the best two guys on the title team anymore. I just can't. So what does that mean financially?

So that's what makes me wonder. Where do you want him to go? Where do you want him to go? I want him to go to San Antonio. I thought that would have been awesome. Denver is just fucking weird enough that I would watch every league pass game. And then a Golden State, I think, would be super fun.

Cleveland is the one that doesn't make any sense to me. And that might be one of the most likely outcomes. You're going to have him and James Hardin on the same team. And if you put LeBron on last year's Cavs team against the Knicks, which has put him instead of Wade and Streeter, getting all those minutes. Does the series change?

Do you think the Knicks lose that series? I don't think Leighton's for the problem against the Knicks. Yeah. So I don't, I had the Cavs scenario. I don't know. Kirk, that one seems lame to me.

I don't think that gets them anywhere. It feels right in my gut, though, like the part where he's doing a victory lap in the Cavs jersey and the goal isn't to win a championship. So I think that's really the fork in the road. If this dude wants to win one more title, it's not Cleveland. I don't think that puts them over the hump.

But it plays like San Antonio or Denver that is a player away, a chess piece away. So I think we're going to learn a lot about his motivations by when he chooses and where he chooses. Because I do think the story, the movie story is going back to Cleveland. And I feel like that's the way for him to be the most beloved athlete in Ohio history and to just make sure that he probably is. It probably is. So it might not. But I know it's lame. but I do think if I had to guess that's where this goes. But if he chooses a place to go win,

I mean, Philly, Minnesota, Denver, San Antonio, there's a lot of compelling choices where he can be the fourth best guy. And hell, he would make every team really good. LeBron's Greenland is watching Lowe would take 35-footers. Minnesota would be an insane move. I think if I'm going to do that, if I'm going to latch on a team,

I'm waiting until December to do it. That's not going anywhere. I want to watch all these teams. I want to play it out and have a good time and do the, is he retiring or isn't he? And I'm just in the news all the time, which is, I think, one of the things that's attractive. It's the dialogue about what's happening with him

that seems to be at least partly addictive to him and everyone in his circle. What's he going to do next? We knew he wasn't coming back to the Lakers. The reason I love that, Bill, is like, again, The 82 game regular season is an obscene amount of basketball for an older person to try to endure. I like this. This could actually set a template for Kevin Durant going forward or Stefan Curry going forward.

I don't need to be out there until Christmas. Like, this is ridiculous. I'm just going to get a hamstring injury or calf injury. And sports science and training have gotten so good that I can keep my body in playing shape even if I'm not playing. Yeah. And I'm more likely to be relevant in April, May, and June if I'm not playing October, November, December, meaningless basketball games against, you know, Orlando on a Tuesday night. He has 43,440 points. He has so many records, I couldn't remember if he had 40,000 points or not.

He has the games record. He has basically the minutes. Name a record. He probably has it or is in the top five. So the regular season, I don't think helps him as much at this point. I think what would help him is how do I, how do I stay in the mix? How are people continuing to talk about me as I try to do this golf side thing that I'm trying to do?

And then can I just parachute into a good situation? Because I'm one to, I mean, the thing with LeBron is he could fit in any situation and be like fun LeBron like he was before Luca got her in the Lakers. So just like, plot me in here, I'll figure it out. and then becomes this huge asset. And maybe he'll watch Minnesota for two months and be like, yeah, I feel like I can help those guys. I'll go in there.

Or maybe he'll watch Denver and be like, oh, shit. Christian Brown looks healthy this year, huh? So anyway, that makes way more sense to me than him talking himself into being on the clippers and playing with Garland and Wagner. I just don't see him doing stuff like that. A couple other really quick things. Then we'll go, Miami loses power.

because of the honest trade. So I feel like he has to be added to the honest trade. The guy made the All-Star team last year. Basically, they lost everybody on their team except Bama Mitchell. I feel like the Yonis sweepstakes ended up just, there's going to be some piece written about all the teams that affected negatively. And then Detroit feels like it's kind of blowing up their team. And right now it's 941 Pacific time.

But they lost Harris. They replaced them with John Collins. Who's fine? I don't think he's as good as Tobias Harris. I thought Harris was on last year's team. Their number two guy they went to anytime they needed a basket. And was also like the veteran culture setter guy who's seen it all and like here to help Kaden, Duren, and then you bring in John Collins, who seems like I have no idea like

what kind of duty is, but it just seems like kind of more of a rent-a-forward situation rather than like a three-year deal that's really a one-year deal. Yeah. And they seem paralyzed by all this during stuff. it's weird to me that if they had this moment coming with their team where they were going have this great reckoning, why didn't they go harder on last year's team? They extended herder, which I thought was weird too, because I don't even remember him playing in the playoffs.

So I don't know what to make or what they're doing, Kirk. And why not try to go after Jalen Brown would be the other one? If that's the price, a couple first round picks and some salary cap flexibility, which the Celtics didn't even get. Yeah, and the Duren, they might end up with Jalen Duren still on their team, and that relationship is going to be strained now. So, you know, there's a case for why don't we just putting our armor on Jailen Dern? Yeah, you had a bad playoffs, but you're all NBA, 22-year-old. We're not getting another player like that in Detroit.

So if it ends up with like this quasi-strained relationship with Jailen Dern and some number that is insulting to him, that's not great either. But this is a 61-win team bill that was on the rise. and it feels like I had them down in my biggest losers of free agency so far because it feels like they're not getting back to 61 wins right

next year like the they lose Stewart that might lose that's right who knows beef stew Robinson they wave

might come back they lose Harris this team was successful and they just I thought they were a score short favorite signings really quick I thought Uber

to Indiana for two for 17 I really liked they're gonna like him Indiana's gonna be good. If they get Halliburton 100% back, I know he battled shingles and stuff, but

I really like that one. I thought Conard, two for 13 in Phoenix was a fun one. And then Harris to San Antonio, I just really like. Although, if we go backwards and we think about that finals, if they have Tobias Harris,

who's losing minutes, Kirk, at that point? So we lose all the card of Brian minutes, and we lose Champany or the two? Yeah, but Champagne's tough because he'll make eight threes in a game and just win it. I love Julian Champany and related story. The Spurs added three years to him and that's a great story because he was a scrap heap guy now. He gets paid. But it just gives them optionality.

And I think Tobias as a shot creator, like the Spurs look terrible on offense a lot. Like the offense just doesn't look good. It gives them another shot creator. So I think somebody could take 10 shots a game where there's 10 or less seconds left than the shot clock. 100%. So I like it for them. It gives them optionality and looks. And everybody on that team is still getting better, as you know. I didn't understand the Barnes thing in relation to that. But why bring Barnes? I get it. But could they love them for one year for $2 million? Not one year for eight? We still don't know where Peyton Watson's going. We don't know where Mathrim's going. My favorite free agent that's left is, well, I have two, Rui Hachamora. And sign,

I think both of those guys, I really like Simons last year. And I think he's at least a $10 to $15 million player. I thought there was a chance the Celtics would bring him back. And then Hachamora, I was surprised that wasn't the guy San Antonio got Kirk. Well, there were, of course, that the Spurs were going to sign. Yeah. Do you agree with that CR? Who makes more sense, Tobias Harris, or Rui?

For what they have. Yeah. I mean, I think that San Antonio is probably Kirk would no way that are the needs. but a lot of their calculus has to do with what they expect Harper and Castle to be next season. So how that relates to Rui versus Tobias, I don't know. But it seems like it would have been an excellent addition. It's sort of strange as he's still out there. I don't know where he's going to wind up.

And Ken Rich Williams is the other one that is just clearly somebody that could be one of your nine guys in a playoff series. Like he might be your ninth guy. but he could be. So Uber is out and then we're starting to get in the slim pickings range. We'll see if somebody gives Tariessen an RFA.

But for the most part, I guess so the biggest storyline left is what happened with Jalen Brown, why'd they trade them? And where's LeBron going? And where's LeBron going? And then can Peyton Watson

get some sort of deal somewhere that will force Denver's hand? But everybody's out of cash in the Yeah, and how long does the craziness go? Like, is there anything that could happen in the next three days that then triggers somebody else

to be like, You know what, actually, I also want. I don't want to be here. But I think that this felt like a fever for the last 10 days, and now we've sweat it out. And we'll have the end of free agency and go into hibernation. You know what I really blame over everything else? Me doing CR month.

It's possible. It was the first domino. I do CR month. Within a month, the Celtics had blown a 3-1 lead in a playoff series to the Sixers. And then we're trading the Sixers, Jalen Brad, back. And it all starts with CR month. It all starts, much like Jalen and Jason,

CR getting the steering wheel for a month has just completely thrown the ringer apart. We also traded you AJ Brown into a football franchise and crisis, you know, and he thought he was going to go play for Vrabel. Is he going to play for Vrabble? I don't know. I mean, like, there's a lot of things up in the air in Boston. You hate to see it. It really is.

We lose the Maple Leafs lottery pick. Oof. The Red Sox season has been an all-time disgrace. And just when things were getting better and we swept the Yankees early goes out with elbow trouble. Grim times. It's also like 130 degrees in Boston this week, apparently. Anyway, all right. Kirk Goldsbury, enjoy the July 4th.

CR, this was a true pleasure. Thanks for being such a pro. Thanks, brother. Thanks for jumping on here in the morning. Thanks to Gahou and Eduardo and Chris. Chris and everybody else at Spotify. I'm going to be back on Sunday at some point with some sort of live show.

And then the next rewatchable is going to be Ali, which is coming on Monday. You can watch that on Netflix, actually, the next five days. But that's our ninth Michael Man movie, CR. I can't wait for people to hear it. I think if there's one lesson and one thing we want to leave people with if they're headed to July 4th, it's make sure you get your colonoscopy.

Make sure you get it, but don't do it on July 1st. And then, CR, possibility, go live Monday night after team USA. We're talking, we're talking about jinxes, non-jinkses, all that stuff. Congrats on Harry Kane. Great day of football yesterday. It was really awesome. Legendary. Anyway, all right, guys, have a great weekend. Thanks to everybody who watch. Must be 21 plus in president's select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and president in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game and problem, call 100 Gambor or 1-800-800-7-7-7-7-7 or visit

ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or MD gambling help.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline, ma.org or call 800, 327-50-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 8778. Hope, NY, or text Hope, NY in New York for Louisiana. Call 8777-7707-8667.