The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Jets in Despair, a Wide-Open AFC East, and the Big UFC-WWE Merger With Sean Fennessey, Ben Solak, and Nick Khan

Episode Date: September 12, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Sean Fennessey to discuss Aaron Rodgers's season-ending injury a mere four snaps into the Jets season, the Jets' inexplicable win in their game against the Bills, what the Jets will do now, and more (1:47). Then Bill talks with Ben Solak about the new landscape in the AFC East after NFL Week 1, including the Dolphins as the new favorites, the Bills' rocky Week 1, the Jets' fast drop, and the sleeper Patriots (33:00). Finally, Bill is joined by the CEO of WWE, Nick Khan, to discuss WWE and UFC's official merger into the TKO Group, the state of boxing, what is next for ESPN, possible mega media mergers, and more (1:08:42). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Sean Fennessey, Benjamin Solak, and Nick Khan Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, how is the jet season already over? Plus Nick Khan, next. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season

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Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gangs here, you're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers and then you only have two of them.

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So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night. It is an all-time one for us. We did Black Cat, me and Chris Ryan, Michael Mann movie. We're running out of Michael Mann movies. We don't care. We love this movie. We're probably in the minority. I also went on The Big Picture with Sean Fennessey. They did a Denzel Washington movie draft, and I was on there with Sean and Amanda Dobbins and Chris Ryan and Van Lathan. That was really fun.

I got over-competitive. I'm sorry. I apologize to everybody in the room. Coming up on this podcast, well, the Jets. That happened. We're going to talk about what happens now with the AFC East with Benjamin Solak.

We're going to bring in our guy, Sean Fantasy, diehard Jets fan, to walk through his emotions the last 12 hours. And then last but not least, Nick Khan, who was running WWE, but today they merged with UFC. And we're going to talk about that merger, what it means, what it means for the business,

what's Vince McMahon's role in the whole thing. And then we're going to talk a lot of sports media stuff as well. ESPN versus charter, what the NBA rights are going to be. So this is an action-packed podcast. Dare I say it's a TKO for you, the listener. Let's bring in Pearl Jam. bringing a pro jam. All right. We taped this on Tuesday morning. We got the word that Aaron Rodgers, out for the year, torn Achilles. Sean Fantasy, who I've worked with for 11 plus years at this point.

Diehard Jets Mets fan, Knicks. Been a rough ride, rocky road. After Rodgers went down five minutes into the game, you just tweeted goodbye. And then didn't respond to texts. And we didn't know. I was saying it was like, Marketson's gone. There is no Marketson.

It's like, Sean's gone. There is no Sean. How are we feeling today? Thanks for having me on the show, Bill. Really kind of you to have me on. I feel justified in all of my melodramatic curse talk. I'm sure I feel similar to how you felt in 2002-2003

with the Sox and feeling anxiety. I feel bad. I feel even worse actually because they won for a variety of reasons but we got a chance to see this is a really cool, fun, exciting team. I don't know if they were

Super Bowl bound but it's easy to imagine a world in which they could have been Super Bowl bound. So yeah, I feel very bad. Very bad. Well, I think the revelation from last night was that Brees looked like 95% of where he was last year, which I was not expecting. He was a weird fantasy football guy. People were like, when's he going to be 100%? Is it going to happen? So the fact that he looked like that almost made the Rodgers thing worse

as the game was going on. If it was even possible to feel worse about it because it's like, oh, this guy's like a guy again. Yeah. Even at the very beginning of the game, it's stupid to nitpick the first four play calls. But I was like, wow,

they're really throwing a lot coming out of this game. I thought the whole point of this season was to actually use the running game to power Rodgers. Obviously, the injury is a freak injury. Nothing could have prevented it. He's an older player. That O-line is obviously problematic, but

it was painful actually watching Brees play so well because that could have been really the focal point of the offense. And then Aaron Rodgers just needed to be competent. And then this Rodgers just needed to be competent. And then this would have been a really competitive team. So it's like I'm legitimately depressed about it. On the other hand, I'll tell you what I really don't like about it.

I feel like this weirdly sets them back for another two to five years. Because obviously, best case scenario, you're going to get three years out of Aaron Rodgers, more likely one and a half years, something like that out of him. Now it's like, where is this team with all of this talent? They have a bust number two overall pick that's probably going to play for them right now.

They have a 39-year-old rehabbing, so even if he comes back next year and decides he wants to play, Rodgers is going to be 40. And they're also weirdly going to be 40. And they're also weirdly going to be too good to tank, so they're not going to be in the top 10 of now

a loaded QB draft. I guess they just have to hope that another free agent hits the market in the next three years. It's weirdly a generation-setting injury in the first five plays of the season, so it's devastating all around. You somehow get your first round pick back.

They do. Because he didn't hit the 70%. Yeah, look, man, he's 39 years old. And this was always the concern. He didn't look that good last year. And there were excuses for the broken thumb. Hard knocks comes in. He's in great shape.

But he's still an older QB. And it was still, to me, like a pretty big variable behind the offensive line. I didn't expect him to get hurt in four minutes. I was power walking around LA and I came home and I missed the start of the game. And I turned it on. And two seconds later, he got hurt. And you could tell when he sat in the turf that it was bad. But I was like, what's happening?

Did I get mugged and knocked out and I'm just imagining this? How is this a real thing that's happening? And then you had to watch Zach Wilson come in, which had to have been among the worst hours in Jets history, right? I don't want to be too strong about this, but I hate Zach Wilson. I hate watching him play football. Hate. Hate. I really can't do this this year. I did say to my wife while we were watching the game in the third quarter that if he is their quarterback this year,

I actually just will not watch. Like I will not watch the season. And then they won in stunning and exciting fashion. And of course, like I got roped back in. Like it was kind of the worst of all possible situations. You lose Rodgers.

You see all the talent on display. And then as soon as the game is over, Robert Sala says, Zach Wilson is our starter. Which, like, we saw this movie. They literally showed us this movie last year. It's a 7-10 team, and Zach Wilson is the least fun, least competent quarterback in the NFL. So, I just,

they have to do something. They're saying they're not going to do something, they have to do something, Bill. I don't know what it is. Bring me Jacoby Brissett. Bring me anybody but Joe Flacco and Zach Wilson. I need him to not be the quarterback this year. What's the spin going to be with Zach Wilson? He got the three months he spent with Rodgers really turned the corner for him

because you know they're going to be spinning it forward. It's not 2022 Zach anymore. He's a different guy. Obviously, there was a normal Zach Wilson play, which is that when he scrambles to the right and runs around and throws it out of bounds. Did you see the Manning cast

during that? No. Peyton and Eli, there's a clip out of that moment when Zach hikes the ball and runs backwards 20 yards. And the look on Peyton Manning's face is like, this is disgusting. How bad this guy is. This is deplorable.

How bad he is at football. And he's a hundred percent right. Like it is unacceptable. There's Zach Wilson learned nothing. We, what we saw yesterday, he threw a pass right across the middle of the field, right into Matt Milano's hands.

Cause he couldn't read the linebackers. That was the same guy last year. Like he didn't learn anything from Aaron Rodgers. Now, maybe in two years time, apprenticing under him, he could have learned something. That's very possible. It's been six weeks. What are we talking about? There's no way he learned anything. I also just, I don't actually think he has the brain to be an NFL QB. And so I would love for them to get him out of there as soon as possible. I'm genuinely nervous that they're not going to do that.

I'm just, and you must be thrilled. I mean, this is incredible for the Patriots. It's huge for the dolphins. I feel like dolphins fans must be cheering after seeing to a look the way that he looked. And now this jets team that is loaded with talent is going to have to

struggle to get to eight wins. So they, they just have to do something. They cannot let, you can't let Garrett Wilson not have a thousand-yard season. You saw the catch last night. He's an unbelievable player.

I'm grasping at straws here. They have to figure something out. Well, there was that moment in the last four minutes when it was clear they were just like, Zach Wilson's not throwing another pass in this game. And if we just kick a field goal and give them the ball back, that's fine. But we're at least getting three points. And they had, there was 204 left heading into the two-minute warning.

And the Bills had just nine guys on the line for every play. Some of the Jets were still running a little bit on them, but Wilson's just by himself on the left, right? He's like, he's not one of the three best receivers in the league, but he's one of the best six or one of the best seven. And he's just by himself. And the two-minute warning's coming up. You know, like if there's ever a moment in Zach Wilson's history where just throw like a little slant pass, this is it.

And they're like, nope, let's run the ball right in the line. I honestly think it was the right call. I really think it was the right call. really think it was the right call Zach Wilson in nine games last year only had two games in which he had more touchdowns than interceptions I mean he sucks so like even with Brees Hall and Garrett Wilson on the field and

frankly I had not watched Alan Lazard play very much and I liked how he looked too I was like this is a weirdly could be a pretty good offense yeah and the Jets have had very few good offenses in their entire history, as you know. And the defense was really fun. Yeah. I mean, they're going to hurt

a couple of quarterbacks this year. They're so fast. Well, so you're... When's the first Jets season you remember? Like, you can't remember. You weren't there for Richard Todd. Do you remember Gastineau at all? Not really.

I mean, I was like 6, 7, 8 years old. So you're like coming in late 80s. Yeah. Yeah, 8 years old. So you're like coming in late 80s. Yeah. Like 89 probably. Was this the single weirdest Jets win ever since you can remember the Jets? Hmm. Can you ever remember a game like that?

I can remember some losses that felt like that. The comp that I was getting last night from a lot of people was not a Jets win, but a Giants loss. That Deshaun Jackson punt return that when he raced back, what was that, 10 years ago now? I can't even remember it.

There have been some exciting Jets wins, but they're often mired in awful seasons. So this one was kind of familiar to me. Because you start out, they do have all the 9-11 stuff before the game. So there's definitely a different vibe. The crowd's great.

Rodgers comes out. He's winging it every play. All of a sudden, he's down. Crowd's dead for probably an hour and a half, two hours. And just like, oh my God. But then the one guy who's like, don't worry, guys, I got this, is Josh Allen, who was on the other team. He's like, I'm just going to keep giving you guys a bump back

until something good happens. And then even in overtime, they get the ball. And I don't know if this is an indictment on Josh Allen or where the bills are right now, but I was like, I think the Jets can get the ball back. Like, I really thought you were going to stop them. You were throttling them the whole game. So, you know, maybe what's the schedule?

Who do you have this week? The Cowboys. Right. So you're going to get killed this week. Yeah. And then you have the Pats in New England in Week 3, and the Pats defense is good, and that's not going to go great either.

So maybe when they hit 1-2, maybe that's the point where you go, all right, we throw away these two games, but we got to get somebody in by Week 4 that can be confident. Given what we've seen from Zach Wilson against Bill Belichick,

I think they actually have to make a move before that if they want to try to salvage the season. I don't think that they can let Zach Wilson play against the Patriots defense. I think actually if you had a mediocre QB against the Pats, just have a rock fight. Just try to win 9-6. I think that that would be reasonable.

But we're going to know pretty soon if they intend to do anything about this. I don't know. Did you talk to Solak about the options that they have here, about who they could potentially bring in? Because I just don't think... No, we didn't.

I saved all... Solak's coming up next. I saved all the Jet stuff for you. The problem for them is this was the single hardest part of their season. Yeah. At Dallas, home New England,

home KC, at Denver, after Sean Payton talked all that shit, which was supposed to be a remit wrench game, but now I don't know what it is. I don't think they're very good for what it's worth. I don't think the Broncos are very good. Maybe that's the one win and then Philly in week six. So you somehow end up

playing three of the best four teams in the league, plus New England and New England, a team that's owned Zach Wilson. And, you know, that was the thing about the game last night. It's like, if you had any chance this season, they kind of had to beat Buffalo at home. So that happens.

But now I don't know what... So at what point did people start sending you the Tom Brady picture with him in the Jets jersey? Because I started getting that within 20 minutes. Yeah. I got it a lot. I had 57 unread messages from the injury

to the end of the game because I wasn't looking at my phone because I couldn't deal with it. And there were a few images in there. Mallory was texting at one point like, Sean, are you okay? I think she was genuinely concerned because she was projecting what would have happened if she had been in that situation, which she probably just would have

walked out the window. I thought the same thing. I was like she had Lamar anxiety just watching that happen. Oh yeah. I got a couple of Tom Brady images. I do think that would be pretty sweet if he came back. I think that would be really fun. But you hate Tom Brady. He's probably your least favorite athlete.

I'm good. Bring him on. He was still slinging it to Mike Evans last year. I don't see why it would be any different to Garrett Wilson wilson so bring it on i'm good with that who are your least favorite athletes of all time tom brady's one isn't he anyone more than tom brady tom brady is definitely one oh well actually no number one is chase utley who can who i hope gets like pushed off a bridge like i i hate chase i love much. Chase Utley is a violent criminal in my mind. But number two is probably Tom Brady. And I would welcome him.

I would welcome him with open arms. And I would, I'll tell you this, if they sign Tom Brady, this is a true story, I'll buy a Tom Brady Jets jersey and I'll wear it every Sunday. So come home, Tom Brady.

Come to New York where you belong. One of the meanest things I ever did to you is I had our staff Photoshop a picture of you accepting the Super Bowl trophy with Tom Brady and Bill Belichick for Roger Goodell. I think I put you on Bob Craft's face. That was the worst part about it. You didn't think it was funny. Yeah, no. Imagine just having to have Bob Craft's body. That would be the worst thing that could happen to me. So you have the QB possibilities. You're in the... You could be in the Jacoby Brissett, Colt McCoy

area, which is probably still better than Zach Wilson. I think it is. I actually would be okay with both of those options. There's like a Tyrod Taylor, maybe. Not bad. You probably have to give up a pick for

somebody. I don't even want to call these guys decent because we've you probably have to give up a pick for for somebody I don't even want to call these guys decent because we've we've seen them all have cups of coffee yeah there's a Davis Mills from Houston maybe no I'm good I'm good the only person who has a longer neck than I do is Davis Mills so I'm good I I think that

you can't say Stafford because Stafford look good and the Rams might be a wildcard team for all we know isn't that depressing he's out that's actually really depressing that they looked really good and whoever all of those receivers are that I've never heard of who played so well on Sunday are going to keep him in LA because

he would be obviously a perfect fit I mean he's very very similar to Rogers in a lot of ways I just I really hope that they don't sign Carson Wentz that is a player that I do not want on the Jets oh I didn't is he you're right he's not on a team he's a free agent

I'd rather have Carson Wentz than Zach Wilson right I would but Carson Wentz is the all-time boner killer in the clubhouse like he's just like the worst hang and a freelance guy so he's just like a little bit better Zach Wilson, basically. But he's not Zach Wilson.

I know. Don't make me root for Carson Wentz this year. Can it get any worse? What if they signed Carson Wentz, but he wasn't allowed in the locker room? He just dressed somewhere else, like one of those sports movies where the girl's on the boys team and they just have a separate dressing room?

There should be like a clause in his contract that says he'll allow a chip to be implanted in his brain that changes his personality because then he would be great. He's got all the physical tools. He's just a huge dick. Like a cheering candidate? Exactly. Exactly. Were there any other trade candidates that got thrown around last night and this

morning that excited you? Mina Kimes and I were doing this last night. We were going through all the potential options. She was very strong on Jacoby Brissett. She thought he was actually legitimately pretty good last year on the Browns. He's obviously playing behind Howell in Washington. What's that going to cost you? A third rounder maybe to get

Jacoby Brissett? I would say maybe a fourth rounder because even Sam won the game. Yeah, that feels like just the most obvious move to me. It's like you basically need a guy who can throw 18 touchdowns and nine interceptions in a season, and you're probably going to win 9 to 10 games with this team. Incredible QB sneak guy.

That's right. Like big, giant body can just kind of fall forward for a half yard. If you had Jacoby Brissett, and you can somehow get through these first six games, I think 3- three is optimistic, but could you get to two and four before you get to that next part of the schedule? And you had Jacoby Brissett.

Brees Hall's looking better than people thought. They have a very easy schedule in the last six or seven games of the year, too. So you can count on moving towards something that is going to be significantly easier. If you can get out of there two and four, that's actually not terrible. I mean, people thought they were going to go two and four with Aaron Rodgers.

Yeah. So they're already a step ahead by being one and oh. I just, I don't know. There's probably another quarterback that's out there that I'm not thinking of. You know, in retrospect, there were a couple of Jets fans, myself included, who were like, I really would just cut Zach Wilson right now and take the dead cap hit and re-sign Mike White. That that was the move in the offseason was that we know

Mike White is a good backup. He's not a starter in the NFL, but he's a good backup. And we know Zach Wilson is not an NFL quarterback. We learned this. And there are obvious reasons why they didn't financially. They knew they were going to bring in Rodgers. They knew they needed to rebuild the team in some ways. But I mean, Mike White,

they know who he is. He would have been wonderful with this team as long as he were able to stay healthy. So that's painful to think about. It's just a ton of little one centimeter moves along the way that just derailed what I thought could have been a really fun season. And I wasn't going into this thinking that they were going to the Super Bowl.

I was like, this is the longest streak of a team without a playoff appearance in all of American sports right now. So I would have been thrilled with a division round game. That would have been amazing. You still somehow have your first round pick because Rodgers now, Green Bay,

can't get the first round pick. And I wonder, like, let's say the Rams start out. I know they won 1-0, but let's say they go 2-4 before the trade deadline. It's just clear they're not going to make the playoffs. I know it's hard for them to fit probably his contract in there. None of us understand the NFL salary cap, but maybe there's

some way to do it. Is there another guy out there? Did Mina come up with a guy if you really wanted to actually pay a premium I don't really think there's a player that you could get for a first round pick but it's been explained to me that it's unlikely that they can even trade their first round pick because that's a conditional

trade for Rodgers so I think they'd have to do a conditional first round pick trade basically yeah and I think the Packers would probably have to agree to that and the Packers are probably not incentivized to help the Jets because the worse the Jets are the think the Packers would probably have to agree to that and the Packers are probably not incentivized to help the Jets because the worse the Jets are the better the Packers second round pick that they're going to get from the Jets would be so

it's a tricky situation I also just don't think that a player is going to become available like what 31 year old you know NFL maybe Jimmy Garoppolo if things go sideways for the Raiders that was someone who occurred to me. Yeah, because they like their backup. Yeah. And so

it's like if you can get a second round pick or something. They go like one and three. Yeah, exactly. So I guess you kind of have to hope for something along those lines. But there's not a lot of players that are like that right now that you'd be even able to have a conversation about. So I don't know, man.

It's tough. It's the first four plays. Jesus Christ. What, I don't know, man. It's tough. It's the first four plays. Jesus Christ. Like, what did I do to deserve this? We don't have a lot in common as football fans the last 20 years. Yeah, thanks.

Thanks for saying that. No, but we had this happen to us in 08 with Brady. He got hurt eight minutes into the first game of the season against the Chiefs. We're coming off the 18-1

season, the loss of the Giants. This was going to be the big revenge season. But you'd already won two Super Bowls. You'd already won two Super Bowls at this point. No, but I'm saying I knew what it was like to be so fired up for this season. Let's fucking go. Oh, there he is. And then it's honestly

like getting assassinated. You're just like, oh my God. Not only are we going to lose this game, but this guy's getting carted off and my whole season is over and there's no coming back. We have no chance now. Yeah, the comparison... And you just go through all these emotions in like 20 seconds.

I'm sure you heard the comparison to Testaverde in 1999, where Benny Testaverde in the first game of the season, coming off of a 12-4 year, coming off of his best season as a pro. I think he threw 30 touchdowns and five picks that year. Then heading into that year, they were loaded. They had Keyshawn, they had Curtis Martin, they had Mo Lewis,

James Farrier defense. They were a really, really, really good team. And a pretty open AFC, too. That was the year Tennessee ended up playing the Rams. That's right. I think that they were the favorite to win the Super Bowl at the beginning of the season. It was a Parcells year. But by the way, you

almost beat Denver the year before. That game was pretty close up to halftime. I think they had a 10-point lead going into the third quarter. And Testaverde gets hurt, and Ray Lucas and Rick Meyer play that year. And Ray Lucas and Rick Meyer play that year and Ray Lucas actually wasn't terrible that season but they finished 8-8 and it was like a dash

dream and they were kind of never the same right Belichick eventually decides to not take that job and moves on Charlie Weiss was the OC of that team he leaves and eventually comes back to the NFL and it's like that's like the shattering of a generation of players now a lot of those guys were like 26, 27,

28. They were older on that team. This Jets team, like half of the talent is under 25. It's just a crazy collection of really exciting young players. So that's why I feel like it might actually serve them better if they make a really bold move to bring in

someone who can kind of change the team rather than just settle for like it's Joe Flacco and Zach Wilson and Tim Boyle off the bench like and our fingers crossed. Yeah. Yeah. I don't give you some silver linings. Sure. AFC wasn't impressed week one. Mm-hmm.

We Sal and I said Sunday night we were talking about the three best teams were in the NFC and we said unless something dramatic we were talking about the three best teams were in the NFC. And we said, unless something dramatic jumps out of that Buffalo Jets game, there's like no good, no great AFC team this year. It just feels completely wide open. And even if you get fired up for Miami,

it's like, well, can Tua play four and a half straight months? Cincinnati, oh, what's going on with Burrow? You going down the line? KC, they have no receivers. My caveat to that is that the two teams that I thought did look good were Miami and New England, which is just not good for the

Jets. That is true. I thought, if I was in the AFC North, I would have felt a lot better. I would have been like, wow, the Bengals and the Steelers might not be as good as we think. And that's not the case with the Jets. I mean, the Dolphins' offense was electrifying. I mean, it was amazing.

We both watched that game. Electrifying until this Sunday when Pop Belichick comes in and puts Mike McDaniel on his knee and gives him some spanks. Okay, famous last words on that one, especially since Tua owns you, as I recall. That's right, I forgot that.

It's like 3-0 against us. But yeah, I think the AFC East is still really tough regardless. But you're right. but that's right I forgot that yeah it's like 3-0 against us but yeah I think the AFC East is still really tough regardless so but you're right it's not

maybe not as as competitive as we thought it was going to be the AFC week one you never know it's like

that's overreaction time silver lining number two they get Jacoby Brissett Davis Mills they whoever it is stop saying Davis Mills

and this team's so loaded the UN put it so loaded the UN put it this way the UN Theory Committee was sent to New Jersey this morning they're very intrigued by all the

all the possibilities here they FanDuel when because we taped the Solak segment before you came on the Jets were 7-1

they had dropped from I think plus 170 to 7-1 to win the AFC East. In the hour since from talking to him to you, it's down to plus 550.

There's some quiet Jets action. People wondering, maybe there's a little more here. So the thing I was thinking was, could this actually be an amazing season where it's like rock bottom to begin with, this punt return touchdown, you're 1-0, you bring in some stopgap quarterback

who's actually not that bad, and then the rest of the team is so good that they can kind of, I don't know, get their 10-7 somehow. Does it give you pleasure to try to raise my expectations so they can only get crushed even further? I just think your team was good. Do you think of yourself as a sadist?

No, see, this would be the sadist question. Can you power rank your teams that have just kicked you in the balls the most right now between Jets, Knicks, Mets? Because the Mets in that season didn't go well. The Knicks were probably the most uplifting story and they just got smoked in round one. It's the exact same story, the Jets and the Mets, because the Mets in that season didn't go well. The Knicks were probably the most uplifting story and they just got smoked in round one. It's the exact

same story, the Jets and the Mets. It is two teams that did not build from within effectively over a long period of time, did not build a sustainable culture, made many failures in personnel and management and in an effort to quickly

rebuild and become competent competent they signed old veterans who they hoped would stand up straight and for steve for steve cohen it was a little bit different because he bought the team and he was like i'm going to turn this around really quickly and be a legend in new york signed max scherzer that was his first really big move ultimately that was not a good move for a variety of reasons and he never came up big in a big spot. And then also Justin Verlander going into this season, two 40-year-old guys

who quickly were dealt at the deadline when they were hugely underperforming. And the Jets story is kind of similar because Woody Johnson was away from the team when he was the ambassador to England during Trump's presidency. And his brother Christopher was acting as the owner at that time.

And he was wildly incompetent. Everything he did, he's responsible for the Adam Gase hire and that whole generation. But when Woody came back, they'd owned the team for a long, long time at that point. He was like, I'm sick of this. I'm stepping in and we're making moves. I'm going to spend the money. I'm going to make sure that Joe Douglas is empowered. I'm going to make sure that we are finally doing things the right way. But the missing piece of the puzzle is quarterback. And so I'm going to go out and spend all this money for this 40-year-old guy. And in both cases, they bet wrong. And that's just not the way to do it. And then you look at the most successful teams in both of those sports. They're teams

that are built around 28-year-old guys. They're not built around 40-year-old guys, with the rare exception of Tom Brady. So it's kind of predictable when you look back on it. But Jimmy G was sitting there. Yeah. That was the other one. I also was pushing for Derek Carr, who I don't think is great by any means, but I think he's going to be perfectly fine in New Orleans. And I think they can go to the playoffs this year.

So both of those guys were on the table and could have been had. You know, I've said this before. Whatever Aaron Rodgers did in the last few years, I thought he sounded like a jerk most of the time. But as a football player, as long as you've known me, he's been my favorite player to watch.

I've always thought he was thrilling. So I could never look at what they did there and be mad about it. I understood why they did it. But both the Mets and the Jets made huge mistakes. As far as which team has been kicking me in the teeth longer, it's probably the Jets. The Mets at least have been to the World Series a few times this century.

They've had exciting teams. They've made a lot of mistakes and they're kind of a PR disaster. Lowell Mets is weirdly more embarrassing than typical Jets. But we do have the Knicks and we do have Giannis coming to the Knicks very soon, which I'm very excited about.

You're going to get somebody. It's Giannis Embiid, Donovan Mitchell, one of those guys. You will. I'm very excited about. You're going to get somebody. It's Giannis Embiid, Donovan Mitchell, one of those guys. You will. I'm guaranteeing it. It's a Bill Simmons guarantee. One of those three guys will be a Nick. I really like Donovan Mitchell as a dude. Diehard Mets fan, Donovan Mitchell. But let's not put him in the same

class as Embiid and Giannis. I'm just saying you're going to get one of those three guys. He's probably the consolation prize, but he wants to go to New York. That's like saying you're going to get a steak dinner. You're going to get a $500 sushi dinner. Or you're going to get Shake Shack. I like Shake Shack.

No, it's a gourmet cheeseburger. It's like one of those nice big fat ones. Alright. We didn't mention Jameis Winston. I guess we can end on that. Jameis, does he do anything for you? I mean, basically anyone but Zach Wilson you're signing up for. I think the upside of Jameis is

Garrett Wilson will break the receiving yards record this season. The downside is they will probably go like 4-13 with Jameis because he's just a turnover machine and that's actually not what this team needs. They need to control the ball. So I don't want Jameis. I felt bad for you last night.

That sucked. I hate when people get injured. Unfortunately, it's part of football, but that was especially cruel. And I said on Twitter, I thought it was the Jetsiest Jets win I've ever seen in my life. I think if you're just going to describe the Jets

with a three-hour win, you probably would just play that tape of that game. Directed by Paul Thomas Anderson. In fairness, 99 out of 100 times I don't even win that game. It's yet to be seen whether the win is

a gift or a curse. The punt return would have been called back by the leg whip penalty and then you lose. Whoever that guy is, was it John Perry? Is that who the official is who said back by the leg whip penalty and then you lose. Yeah, and whoever that guy is, was it John Perry? Is that who the official is who said that that was leg whip? Go to hell, John Perry. I don't want to hear about it. The broadcast, that's not...

Joe Buck was incredible on last night's game, by the way. I thought his call all the way through, he was really, really good and he was amazing on that last call. And within three minutes to have that dipshit talk about how there was a leg whip get off my tv that was painful i liked when joe buck when he did the no flags as the guy was running toward the end zone and so because i honestly that's the one thing i want to know

are there any flags yeah he's been able to call a few of those it reminded me a little bit of the last time digs was in a big game like that when with division game that the Vikings won where it was like, dig, sideline! You know, like, really great stuff. Love Joe Buck. So, movie question, then we'll go. What director would be

the director you would pick to make a movie about a tortured Jets fan? Paul Schrader. Paul Schrader, okay. Yeah. A man alone in a room in front of his keyboard

typing goodbye into Twitter. I'm on your podcast this week, The Big Picture. We did a Denzel Washington draft. That was super fun. I felt like I won, but what the audience decides. So the audience will decide over the next two days. I think everybody who knows you and listens to your show knows that you're very competitive, but I don't think they realized you're competitive in all things, not just in sports gambling or predictions for the season. They got mad at me. There was like a five minute stretch where I wasn't talking because I was

trying to figure out who was going to be next. I didn't know what you guys were talking about. I turned to you a couple of times to make eye contact to be like, Bill, you want to weigh in on this? And you were just zoned out. You were just looking at your iPad, not even paying attention.

You have these categories. And I was like, I want to make sure I don't, I don't have a Blockbuster yet. Yeah, it brought out a lot of my worst qualities. No, it was great. I just want to win. I just want to win at all times.

I know. I know. You're such an inspiration to me, Bill. It's amazing. Yeah, thanks. It was great to see you. Sorry about the jets. Thanks for coming on, Bill.

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You can hear him on the Ringer NFL show as well as the Philly special podcast we have. Plus, you can read him every Sunday night. He launched an awesome Sunday night column that you can read on Monday mornings about the NFL season. So you have the, oh, baby. And then you have the, oh, baby. Last night, Monday Night Football was, oh, baby, this is bad. You knew it right away. I turned on the TV and all of a sudden Rodgers was down. I'm like, oh my God, I'm processing this. But I want to talk about the AFC East piece of this. You and I were both pretty high on the Dolphins as a future team, as a, hey, these odds don't represent what's here if two actually can stay healthy for four straight months. And after week one with everything we saw in the AFC East, you know, there are no winners and losers

when somebody gets hurt like that. But the Dolphins are now advantageously positioned to do something really great. Do you believe in them after what you saw last week? Yeah, absolutely. That was the best game I've seen Tua play as a pro. I've been, before Mike McDaniel was there, I was a Tua questioner, a Tua doubter,

a Tua hater, as the Dolphins fans would call me. Then Mike McDaniel gets there, the offense takes a huge step forward, Tua looks better than he ever did. And I put a lot of the chips for that, a lot of the credit for that, that improvement on Mike McDaniel's play, right? And I was still kind of like a Tua doubter to a questioner he was great for the offense had an

awesome skill set was the best quarterback we'd ever seen in that offense but it was still a lot of mike mcdaniel's magic a lot of tyreek hill that game against the chargers was the most i have seen to a create he was scrambling it was outside of the pocket he was going through reads he was making choices and progressions not throwing the ball into coverage that last year he was throwing it into. He showed arm talent. He had velocity. Like this was, I don't want to put, I said a lot of things watching that film

that I can't say on the Bill Simmons podcast because then they'll live forever and people will be able to find him back. But I feel so good about this Dolphins offense. I think it's a record setting unit if Tua stays healthy for 17 weeks. I was also very encouraged. I had them to win the AFC East.

I think it was plus 290. It's dropped, which we'll talk about in a second, just because I like the odds. And I think Tua was 20-1 for comeback of the year, too, which I thought was another one where it's like, man, if he does what he did last year, that's going to win. I've never totally been in on him,

but that was by far the best game I've seen him play. I feel exactly the same way. Exactly the same way. You had it in the Sunday column. That third and 10 throw he had where they have real pressure coming in. There's four minutes left. They're down four.

They need a play. And he steps up and then hits Tyreek in stride 40 yards down the field. Then touchdown pass was also like just elite, just elite touch. The third and 10 play of the year referencing Tyreek 40 yards down the field. When he gets to the top of his drop, he separates his hands and he's getting ready to throw because they have an in-breaker past the sticks, which is like the money route for Tua, the money route for Mike McDaniel.

He separates his hands, ready to throw. He sees the robbery safety sitting there, ready to jump the route, pick six inbound. And he holds the ball, hitches up and, and not just like, okay,

I have to get later in my progression. Let me check it down. He goes later in progression down the field. He goes and attacks vertically late in the down. He was not doing this last year. So it's one game. It's one play. And we can't get too far over our skis.

But that is one of the most encouraging plays I've ever seen from Tua. It was so cool. I'm doing the play sheet this week on Ringer YouTube on Tua and on that improvement. That play is in there. It was such a good performance. Oh, awesome. Well, and at the same time, Jalen Hurts is on another TV just missing multiple guys down the field because his eye contact was down. You told me AFC East. You didn't tell me we were attacking again after Jalen Hurts a little bit.

But yeah, not a great performance for my birds. Yeah, so with the Miami piece of this where it's like, all right, what's the ceiling of this team? The part I'm having, and I know you studied the tape and you're doing the play sheet, so you obviously got a real long look at that, whatever the F the Chargers were doing defensively. Tyreek was just wide open eight times. I don't feel like against the Patriots of New England and Bill Belichick, very soon to become the most winning coach

in NFL history, hopefully in the next couple years, pretty sure they're just not going to do the plan where Tyreek's just open all over the field. My guess is they're going to double team him, do whatever they can to limit him, keep safeties back, make sure it just kind of push everything, make Mostert run the ball all the time.

What did the Chargers do wrong that you saw? Yeah, so the Chargers were one of the best defenses against the Dolphins last year, right? To a throw into the middle of the field against the Chargers in 2022. He was one for six. This game, he was seven for 11. And what a big part of that success was, is McDaniels finding new ways to play hide and seek with Tyreek, finding new ways to get players open in that middle of the field. This Dolphins offense last year was so impressive in large part because of how explosive it was, but it was compounded by how simply they got to their spots.

They ran the same stuff just over and over and over again. There was a much more diverse menu of, okay, we're going to put this window dressing and this little bobble and this little trick on this look, and we're still going to get to our same stuff. But now you can't see it coming as early. They ran a lot of motion, as they always do, but they ran their motion a lot faster in this game. Instead of having a jet motion, Tyreek Hill starts moving,

and now he's moving across, and here he comes across, and now he's on the other side, and we snap it. They would just move him right before the snap. He's in the slot, boop, he's outside, and we go. So you're giving defenses a lot less time to adjust on the fly. I agree that Belichick is going to present problems to McDaniel that he didn't face with Brandon Staley. Belichick's just got better players.

Like, the stars for the Chargers in this game, Khalil Mack, Joey Bosa, J.C. Jackson. Holy smokes, J.C. Jackson was getting cooked. Like, their players did not rise to the occasion. Belichick's got better players. He's going to present unique problems. But I tell you, McDaniel, to me, is the next McVay. McDaniel's the guy who's got it.

And he ran into Belichick in that Super Bowl, McVay did, and he got his lunch money taken a little bit. But if McDaniel can use Tyreek the way he's used him to this point and still be successful, I don't know who stops this offense. I really don't. Do you have Tyreek as the most important non-QB weapon in the league now, or would you have somebody else? Yeah, that's a really good, I'm stealing that line. That's the best way to frame it for sure.

Because I think before the season, I would have been like, oh, McCaffrey, you know, and kind of talk about how the Niners run that whole thing. But with Tyreek, you brought up like, oh, Belichick's going to put safeties deep. That's the thing about Tyreek is the moment he gets on the field, like every team and the Chargers were doing this on Sunday, they put safeties like 20, 22 yards deep. Just by the presence of 10 on the field

before the ball is snapped, the geometry of the field changes. And you don't get that from anybody else. The threat, just the existence of the implied deep threat of Tyreek Hill changes the weight of the field. It's incredible to see. Because Jefferson had the wide receiver title at the end of the last year. Michael Lombardi, who was on this podcast in August, he's been adamant. It's Tyreek. He just had some quarterback issues last year, but Tyreek is the guy that tilts the field. And Tyreek, when he says stuff like,

yeah, I'm going for 2,000 yards this year, and you think... He's on pace for 3,000, so good start. If you get the two apiece. So I think this Pat's defense is really good, and you saw it against the Eagles. That was... I felt good.

We talked about it here on the Sunday Night Pod, and then I watched some stuff on Monday, and I read all the smart guy stuff and all the smart pieces that everybody was writing on Monday. And I think the general perception was the Pats are good. The Pats defense, first of all, the Eagles offensive line, which is the best in the league, they were able to get pressure on Hertz. They solved the issue that they had the last couple of years with these fast QBs. How do we stop them? We're not fast enough with this plotting linebackers going after Josh Allen and Hertz. There was real speed. And then they had a lot of D-back flexibility, which they just didn't have before. Even somebody like Maypu, the ability

to have five, six defensive backs at all times. This has been a two-year fix for them. And I do feel like they kind of fixed it. How much of that was their defense is good? And how much of it on Sunday was the Eagles just looked at crap? The majority of it is the Patriots defense being good. The Eagles slice of the pie can't be ignored. The change from Shane Steichen, their old offensive coordinator, is now the head coach of the Colts, to Brian Johnson,

their new offensive coordinator, who just does not have a ton of play-calling experience, didn't really call plays at the NFL level, that can't be ignored. The Eagles just couldn't get Dallas Goddard involved. And whenever you have a tight end as good as Goddard, and he ends the day with one target and no receptions, and you had those four three-and-outs, you had those series where they were herky-jerky and they couldn't get anything going.

It's the play caller's job to get the star player involved. And the fact that he couldn't, I think, is like, you know, you've got a young player caller and he's figuring it out. But in general, the majority of the pie goes to a Patriots defense that did two things really well. The first thing they did was in the offseason. They got Christian Gonzalez and Keon White in the building.

Holy smokes, Mapu too. But Gonzalez played great ball and Keon White. What the heck, man? That was not on the Georgia Tech film. That was very impressive. Jordan Mailata, man. Mailata's a good left tackle and Judah and Uche certainly

but Keon White against Lane Johnson had a couple of good reps. He was the player that most stood out to me in terms of the young players. So the first thing they did is they reloaded and they retooled really well. And then the second thing that they did was, is that they really exposed the pocket presence issues for Jalen Hurts, the uncomfortability there. You don't necessarily have to get the guy down.

He's a really hard guy to sack and he's obviously a good scrambler. But if you do move him off his spots, he's not a great thrower on the move because he's built like a linebacker. He's not like this like elastic band that Patrick Mahomes or Lamar Jackson is. So he doesn't throw super well in the move. And he's not as comfortable doing so.

He'd rather be in the pocket, be on his first read and hammer the ball to A.J. Brown. And so eventually the Eagles got to their spots, right? A.J. Brown over the middle of the field. They trusted their running game and they kind of hammered the greatest hits

and they just out-talented the Patriots. They grounded out over them. But when you go and you look at success rate, the number of plays that were positive for each offense, the Patriots offense was more successful in this game on a play-to-play basis than the Eagles were. They just had the bad turnover luck that the Patriots did. They had their early scores

and they weren't able to claw their way back into the game. Altogether, though, great performance in the Patriots' defense. Yeah, I have a lot of Eagles fans in my life, and all of them were really bummed. I'm sorry to hear that. Wow, that's a bad win and all that stuff. I really felt like, man, we played pretty well. There were multiple

times that could have turned into Pittsburgh-Cincinnati. And, you know, the receivers are better. They're going to be able to run the ball. I thought that was one positive maybe for the Eagles was that the run defense seems like you just seem bigger. Two giant guys in the middle.

So I don't know. Like, Philly's playing Minnesota on Thursday night. It feels a little scary. Like the tease is too obvious. And, uh, Vikings were plus two 95 on Fandle on Monday.

I know that from personal experience. Uh, Jesus. Yeah. They, uh, the Eagles lost to Kobe Dean to injury in this game as they're starting linebacker.

They're now going to be playing Zach Cunningham, who was about as bad as you'll see a start linebacker be, uh, on Sunday, along with Christian Ellis, who just does not have starting experience. James Bradbury is in the concussion protocol. They're outside corners replacing this Josh Jobe.

Again, a guy who does not have playing experience. They're super thin defensively. I think you're thinking stay away. I mean, I took I took over 40 and a half quick and then I took a little bit on the Vikings money line just because I think this is going to be a lot of points for the Vikings. And then you have on the other side of the ball, Brian Flores against Jalen Hurts. And if there's something that hassles Jalen Hurts,

it's the Blitz. If there's something Brian Flores likes to do, get after the passer a little bit. I think it's going to be a weird one for the Eagles on Thursday night. I like all the Goddard receiving props on Thursday. The get-right game, the fake game. It had to have been, at some point, Monday, Tuesday,

just the head coach looking at the staff being like, what the hell? We have Dallas Conner. He wasn't even involved in the offense. So if you look at the AFC East, Miami before the year was plus 290 to win the division. And now they're plus 140. They're now the favorites.

Buffalo, who we're about to talk to, plus 120. They've fallen to plus 145. The Jets dropped to plus 700 and probably should be dropping even worse than that. And then the Pats were 8-1. And they're now 9-1 on FanDuel. And my reaction

coming out of that Monday night game, and this is I felt bad for Rodgers. I felt bad for the Jets fans. But as a Pats fan, at some point you start looking at it going, we played them in week three. And that was supposed to be this really hard game in this gauntlet of the first six weeks. And now, you know, we could be getting Zach Wilson in Foxborough unless the Jets do a miracle thing. I think that Pats eight to one is kind of crazy. Uh, Miami should clearly be the favorite, but I don't know if I trust two either. Now the odds aren't as tasty as they were. And it almost seems like the Pats are the only long shot. I'd rather the Pats the long shot

odds over any of those other odds. So can you talk me into Buffalo? Is that just a bad game? What did you like? No, I'm not pressing the panic button on Buffalo, but it was such a weird game that you can't move on the bills right now, even with them below the Dolphins. We talked about this a lot in Extra Point Taken with Sheil, where there are games where Josh Allen makes a bunch of knuckleheaded mistakes because he's just trying to be a superhero all the time. And it's like, OK, dude, you're very talented. Yes, it's very cool.

You can throw the ball super far. You've got to relax. And then there's games where Aaron Rodgers goes down on the fourth play of the game. And you just as a, as an individual and as a captain of the team have to decide, Hey, we're going to play mistake free football, win a game on the road against a divisional opponent. Like, uh, you're not a trick shot artist. This is not, uh, you're not, you're not, not building out a highlight reel ever since that

2021 chiefs bills, incredible playoff game at 36 36-42, the Allen-Mahomes game, Allen's been playing every game like he's got to do that. And I get that it was sick to play in that game, and it was an incredible game, one of the best games, whatever, unbelievable quarterback performance. But Allen has to mature. Allen has to decide that he's going to make decisions for the sake of the team winning,

not for the sake of him hitting 50-yard touchdowns. All three of the interceptions that he threw were to make decisions for the sake of the team winning, not for the sake of him hitting 50 yard touchdowns. All three of the interceptions that he threw were knucklehead stuff. Just, just plain and simple. No, you can't sugarcoat it. It was just stupid, dumb decisions.

And to do that in a tight game, Aaron Rogers and the chiefs and it's my homes. Like, okay, like I can at least like wrap my head around it and justify it a little bit. You got to create something to do it in this game where, where, where the moment Rogers goes, gets on that cart, you say, okay, I can at least wrap my hand around it and justify it a little bit. You got to create something to do it in this game where the moment Rodgers gets on that cart, you say, okay, we're going to run the football.

We're going to control the ball. We're going to generate a lead. We're going to make them throw their way back into this, and we're just going to win this thing. I thought it was very disappointing, but that's a unique context. That's in the vacuum of week one. I would not be surprised if in week two, Allen walks out and looks like the absolute wood chipper that he's looked like during stretches

of the last two years. So I'm in a wait and see mode with the Bills. I didn't pick them to make the playoffs and the case for them to make the playoffs was they have Josh Allen, so they're going to go 10 and 7, 11 and 6. When you and Shield did your over-unders and division picks

and all that stuff, it was the same case. Shield was like, he laid out all the things I'm a little worried about, but they have Josh Allen, and that's what we always said. But if Josh Allen isn't playing at the highest level, I just don't see a lot of talent with them. I don't think they're bad, but I don't think they have a lot of impact players,

and you could feel it last night. Once Rodgers went out, it's like, all right, the Jets are going to run the ball. They're going to be terrified to do like, all right, the jets are going to run the ball. They're going to be terrified to do anything with Zach Wilson. They were still able to run the ball. Yeah. And I was, I was surprised by that more than anything.

The fact that Sean McDermott takes that defense over from Leslie Frazier says we're going to be more aggressive. And then Aaron Rogers goes down. Zach Wilson comes in. The only thing that jets can do now is run the football. And there's, there gave up an 80 yard run to breeze hall, like two drives later. Immedi only thing the Jets can do now is run the football. They gave up an 80-yard run to Brees Hall two drives later. Immediate, that was

sirens for me. Even the last drive, they get the turnover and you know what they're doing. The Jets have decided with four minutes left in that game, Zach Wilson's not throwing another pass. We're good. We're just going to run the ball.

But they ended up getting a first down, right? And then the one time they should have thrown it, I think there was 2-0-4 left. And so they knew they had the two-minute coming, so the clock was going to stop anyway. And it was like the perfect play-action time. The Bills had like nine guys on the line. And you have Garrett Wilson by

himself over on the left. And it's like, man, if there's ever a time, if Zach Wilson is competent, even 1%, this is the time to throw a pass, but they wouldn't even do that. And the Bills still lost. Yeah, it's from 2019 to 2022, the Bills, it's four over four drafts.

The Bills have drafted exactly one pro bowler. That was Dawson Knox. He had one pro bowl season in 2022. And then they drafted his replacement, Dalton Kincaid at tight end in the first round of 2023. All along those drafts are defensive players, right? You have a first round on Gregory Rousseau, defensive end, who's like good, but you still need to take the step and kind of be the impact player. Second round pick on AJ Epinesa, second round pick on Boogie Basham, right? They got Tremaine Edmonds into the building and then they spent a third round pick on Terrell Bernard, who's now starting at Mike Linebacker,

trying to make him the future guy there at Mike. They spent the first round pick on Tyree Elam. It's a healthy scratch, right? They spent a fourth round pick on Jaquan Johnson to be a backup safety. He can't hack it. Now you've got two over 30-year-olds and Jordan Poyer and Micah Hyde back there. They have been trying to land on young talent to retool the offensive line and then the defense. And they have just missed and missed and missed. They've got like some solid players in and like the Gabe Davis pick was a nice pick. Like Devin Singletary was a good back for a third round or solid, whatever. But they have not hit on impact players. And that's the issue with the Bills. The cupboard is run bare. And now you're really trying to hold this thing together.

Like you said, on the merit of Josh Allen's talent, on games where he behaves like that, no chance. I should mention the listeners, you weren't reading from anything as you were ripping that off. I really want to get you tested in like a New Mexico facility to see if you're an alien. It's like a 20% chance. I wrote about the Bills.

I visited them in training camp and my entire piece was basically predicated on the idea of like, hey, everybody good? Are we fine? Because you guys have missed the conference championship

in the last two seasons and everybody's like, yeah, we're great. We're fine. But you go and you sit down and get to brass tacks. Like there's, and you've talked about this a lot

and rightfully so, there's so many ways this implodes. Like the last couple of years, it was like, okay, the floor is high because the talent and they're young and they can do whatever and they can add this

and they can add that. Now, like we're getting to the part of Josh Allen's contract where it gets super expensive. They're relying a lot on Von Miller coming back from injury. Tredavis White come back from injury. Everybody's two years old,

three years older. Right. You can't talk yourself into Gabe Davis taking a step as easily as you did two years ago because you did it two years ago and he didn't take a step. And so it just, it starts to get thinner. It and he didn't take a step. And so it just,

it starts to get thinner. It starts to get harder to hold on. And, and that wears on, on, on a, on a community that wears on a locker room. And I think the Leslie Frazier change is a bit of a part of that,

right? Where, yeah. Okay. Like it wasn't the defense was bad, but we have to make some sort of a change to feel like there's going to be an impetus for an improvement. I didn't have them in the playoffs partly because I always want to zag,

and you're doing it now on your Sunday call, I'm the zag. But to me, always a great zag with football is when everybody's like, oh yeah, the Bills are a playoff team, and they just kind of pencil them in, but they don't actually look at it. Like what you laid out with that draft, this happened to the Patriots twice. In the late 2000s, they missed a couple drafts. And it takes a couple years, but then you feel it. When guys get more expensive, people leave, and that rookie class is supposed to step up and they don't. And then it happened to them,

again, four years ago. The tail end of the Brady era heading into that Cam Newton season, they just whiffed on some drafts. They traded some picks. They didn't, they lost the, uh, the flake a pick. And, you know, all of a sudden you look at from like 2015 on, they just didn't bring in enough talent. And then it flipped and people are like, Oh my God, the Pats, what happened? It's like, yeah, we know what happened. And the flip side is the chiefs last year, right? The chiefs nail every, every draft pick place. And it's basically the reason they win the Superbowl is because they crushed this draft. Those are the moms.

And that's one of the reasons I'm bullish on the Pats because not only do they get the three defensive guys you mentioned, but we have a punter, and we got two offensive linemen. Yeah, Berenger, baby. Michigan State, love him. Great process. Five-second hang time,

and then they drafted two offensive linemen who started against a really good Eagles defense and weren't a disaster. So, you know... What's the left guard's name? The six-round pick? All right, maybe. Jalen Carter had a good time

that day, but I hear what you're saying. You're right. When we talk about the cycles of NFL team building, we always give general managers a lot of credit for building, but building is actually the easy part. Building as we're young, we put a ton of players out there. Everybody can win a job in training camp. We cycle in a bunch of youth. Let's see who can hang around for us. It's the sustaining that's tough. It's the, okay, we have our guys. We know

we're going to give them these large contracts. We don't have as much money to throw around. We don't have as many draft picks to throw around. Brandon Bean, when they lost to the Bengals in the postseason, right? He said, oh, we didn't have a top five pick to spend on Jamar Chase. And that's a little petulant, but he's also right. You know, like they're not drafting in the top 10. Last time they did was at Oliver, good player. Other than that, it's been picks in the 20s, right? And so it just, it gets more challenging. The margins get thinner. And when you miss on your second rounders and you miss on your third rounders and you can't cycle in that young talent, the cracks in the facade start to show up.

Or in the Pats case, their first rounders, right? They took Isaiah Wynn to be the left tackle of the future. Didn't cut it. They took Sony at the end of the first round and Lamar Jackson draft. That didn't cut it.

You know, like you go back and there's like, they just had 10 whiffs. They took two tight ends in the third round. Neither of them could be on the field for one second. That leads to Johnnie Smith, Hunter Henry. And I do feel like with the Bills, they took some big swings at running backs.

They drafted, I think, three running backs in the first three rounds. Third round pick on Devin Singletary. Third round pick on Zach Moss. Second round pick on James Cook and traded for Naeem Hines. Right. That's a lot of capital. Did you think Cook looked that good last night? He's fine.

He's like a C plus. They're so positive that Cook is the guy. And it's because he has to be. Because if they went 0 for 3 with all top 100 picks, it's just egg on your face. It's so tough. I think Cook is the best of the three that they've gotten between Singletary Moss and himself.

But they're very much trying to make him a thing and he deserves a few games as the established starter to develop and come around. He was in a timeshare last season, but I don't watch James Cook and go like, wow, there's the next Aaron Jones. I go, okay, if I really squint

and I cross my fingers and I supplicate the gods, then maybe it's the next Aaron Jones. So yeah, the back situation, like Damien Harris is probably the best back in that room right now, which is weird, not good. Yeah, because you watch Bijan, you watch Gibbs, and you're like, oh, I get it.

Bijan, oh my gosh. Both of those guys, are they two of the best seven backs in the league already just from a making people miss standpoint? It's in terms of watching a move. It feels like it, right? Oh, my God.

There's so much juice on B. John. So much. Gibbs is free, man. When Gibbs hits the turbo, it's like watching, like, those super big kids play with fifth graders, right? Like, you see the viral highlights. It just looks like a different cat. No, they're

the talent of those top backs. You can debate anything about positional value. I get it. Build the team right. Whatever. I just love watching them play. I love watching them play so much. They're so good. So Buffalo's got Vegas at home this weekend. At Washington. Home Miami.

At Jacksonville in London, home Giants at New England, home Tampa, which might not be as easy as we thought it was for the year, and then at Cincinnati. That's their first nine. Their schedule is a little easier than maybe it looked a couple of weeks ago because maybe the Giants aren't good. Maybe the Broncos aren't going to be frisky at all. But then it gets really hard that last stretch. At Philly, at KC, Dallas, at the Chargers, New England,

at Miami. So that's a gauntlet. And they have to be, I think to make the playoffs, they probably have to have eight wins heading into that gauntlet. Seven you could get away with, but then you'd have to go three and three. But I would not pencil Buffalo in. That's my expert opinion.

I agree with you. My rosy perspective, my rose-colored glasses, is a big wake-up call in week one. It's like, hey, we can't get away with a bunch of stuff. We can't screw around. They were already kind of hitting a low, you know, Allen elbow injury. They were very erratic to end last season. And then they lose to the Bengals in embarrassing fashion.

But, like, there were so many emotions. The DeMar Hamlin, they had the weather. Like, the entire end of last season was just like a tumbleweed, a snowball of events. So you come in, okay, like, you know, everything's going to be better in 2023. We don't have to deal with all these problems and all these huge moments. And then you just face plant on national television. It's good. Wake up call of like,

Hey, Josh, grow up. Like we need you to be better. Hey, like offensive line. Like if we're going to continue to have procedural penalties, you're going to get replaced.

Like we are going to improve here. So I do think there's a world in which we're looking at the bills a month from now, two months from now and go in. They right at the ship. Sean McDermott is objectively a good coach. Josh Allen's objectively a very talented quarterback. They figured it out.

And this can serve as a wake up moment for that. Kyle, turn the TikTok camera on. So if I gave you the following choices for the, oh my God, they're having the year from hell team. Okay. Jets are out because they, you know, because of Rodgers. They're not eligible. Very heavy favorite.

Yeah, they're not eligible, but Jets hadn't ever done anything. Talking about people that we expected to do something. Okay. And I give you Buffalo, Cincinnati, Kansas City, and I think that's it. Just those three. Those are big three.

And I said, one of those teams is in the process of having the year from hell and are not going to make the playoffs, a la the Rams last year. When it's like, oh, the Rams, they'll be there. And it's like, wait, the Rams are one and four. Oh, wait, the Rams just aren't a playoff team. My pick would be Buffalo for that. I actually believe in the bones of Cincinnati.

I just think that Burrow, he didn't have a preseason and everything we expected happened. I would pick Buffalo. Who would you pick? I think I'd definitely pick Buffalo. What you said there, the bones of Cincinnati is what I agree with. The Bengals have talent. Again, Bean made

this comment. They're a couple years behind Buffalo's arc. They're still at the oh no, we lost two players this year. Here's our first round pick. We drafted to replace them. They're still just in that nice cycle of having some cheap talent. They just signed a lot of their extensions. So they have such good talent.

They're going to be fine. And then the Chiefs, like again, from a talent-wide perspective, you could argue that they have as many like question marks and uncertain spots as the Bills do. But I've seen them be successful in spite of that a lot more frequently,

a lot longer because of the homes than I have with the Bills who've just struggled with that recently. So yeah, between the big three and AFC, I would say if a team really rocked bottoms, I think Buffalo would be my pick. guy's back. Jones is back on his extension. It's a very weird extension. It's not even an extension, just they got a one-year deal done. Callis will be back. I think that wide receiver room is legitimately abysmal, and I also think it's not going to matter. Why not? Two quickie questions before we go. One, there's been

some dialogue today about sportsbooks refunding Jets bets because of Rodgers. And it's like, oh, if you had the Jets to win the division or whatever, we feel bad where we're funding it. I don't mean to be a jerk, but part of betting the Jets was that Rodgers is old and old quarterbacks. If you're talking about Favre or Mannings last year, or what we saw from Drew Brees, where he can only throw four yard passes and so on and so on. Like at some point it ends badly with old quarterbacks.

And you had to factor that in when you're betting the Jets. It's like Rodgers is 39. Didn't look good that year. Old quarterbacks get injured, you know, more easily. It's the Jets. They have a tortured history. I personally don't think that sports books should refund bets when somebody gets injured.

But where do you stand? Yeah, no. When you bet into a season long market, you expose yourself to this sort of stuff. That's the nature of... You got to know the nature of the market you're betting into, right? Yeah. You thought the Jets were so much better than the market implied. Okay, they're plus 240 to win the division. Go find an alternate spread against the Bills in week one and make them plus 240. Now you still would have lost that because rogers went down but there's ways you know to get exposure on like oh i think the bill of the jets are way

better than the market does without exposing yourself to 18 games and a long-term potential of injury and a ton of mishaps but then obviously there's bad stuff that can happen in single game environments as well so you have to know like you expose yourself to risk you can't i i i totally respect the game if i had jets season, I would have asked for it. I had a lot of Garrett Wilson overs last night. If sportsbooks end up refunding Rodgers bets, I'd like to say that those also.

Can we toss those in there? Because I kind of thought he wouldn't have Zach Wilson as his QB, but that's the nature of betting. Sometimes you take water over the bow. Last question. Can you defend football nerd hero Justin Herbert after that demonstrably horrible last drive down two against a Miami team

that wasn't even doing well defensively? Our nerd hero was in a nice spot to flip the narrative and did not. And I know we still have to go to the altar and we bring our little beautiful mind numbers and we talk about how amazing he is. But at what point does he have to come through? Just give me the year, like 2025.

What year? Justin Herbert has started 50 games as the quarterback of Los Angeles Chargers. You have a guess of how many fourth quarter comebacks he has? How many? 10. 13 game winning drives over 50 games. Okay, you know when he didn't have those? Last year against Jacksonville

in the playoffs and then this year in week one in a game they kind of needed at home against Miami who's an AFC contender. So, Sheila and I on Action Point Taking got into this a little bit.

We might have yelled at each other a touch. The Chargers offense put up 34 points. They were, they had one of the most successful offenses of the league this week.

I love this. It's a win. Herbert was great. They had one of the most successful offenses of the league this week. I love this. It's a win. Herbert was great. It wasn't one of Herbert's best games. I thought he missed a couple throws deep. He absolutely did. He 100% did. Yeah, no.

From a micro view on Herbert, I thought he played well, but it wasn't one of his best games. It wasn't one of his lights out games. If he played better, they're likely putting seven on the board in some of the drives where they put three and they're able to build a larger lead. Herbert, absolutely. You go back to the tape and you say X, Y,

and Z. There was a vertical route to Keenan Allen, a vertical route to Quentin Johnston. He had Mike Williams on the third and goal where they could have gone up by eight, could have gone up by nine. Could have, should have, would have. The Justin Herbert era. So, no. Herbert absolutely should have played better. On the last drive, I mean, they get 12 yards on first and 10,

and then they walk out. There's immediate pressure. Trey Pipkin's right tackle did not play well. And then he gets called for grounding when the back was there. Oh, I love the excuses. You're like a little league parent. The play of the game was Mike McDaniel working the rest on the sideline, getting that grounding call, man.

High EPA on that one. I love it. This is great. This is better than I expected. Tua played better than Herbert, no doubt. Herbert, the offense overall played well, but they were terrible on that drive. The main thing to remember is that 50 career starts,

10 fourth quarter comebacks, 13 game winning drives. This was wonderful. He is successful late. He is. Large samples, baby. Large samples. Herbert, he should wear, where's the little league world series? It's Williamsport. Williamsport PA.

My neck of the woods where I grew up. All the Herbert, all the Herbert fans should wear Williamsport jerseys with Herbert on the back because it's, he's the ultimate little league parrot guy now. You don't understand how great he is. It's like, I do understand. He's really good. I watch football every week. Can he win

some of these now? Can we actually see it? Can they make a round two? Is something going to happen with this guy's career beyond just them going 9-8 every year? By the way, I'm perfectly willing to blame Brandon Staley.

I'm happy to do that. I don't think he's a good coach. But at some point, we got to wonder what's going on here because he has as much talent as Burrow and Josh and Mahomes and Hurts. He's clearly in the top five. So why is that translating to wins?

Staley was rough in this game. I thought the Chargers defense was going to be a lot better Against an offense that they stopped last season It was embarrassing They let Tyreek Hill do whatever he wanted Joey Bosa, non-factor JC Jackson, more non than a non-factor

Net negative It was a very tough performance defensively I cannot stress enough Herbert could have played better Tua outplayed Herbert We'll be continuing this during the season Put it in the have played better. Tua outplayed Herbert. We'll be continuing this during the season. Put it in the TikTok that Ben said Tua outplayed Herbert.

Overall, great day for the Chargers offense. They looked awesome. They're going to be a great offense this year. You're in that left field in Williamsport with the Herbert jersey. Come on, Justin! Good job, Justin! You're doing great! Alright, Ben Solak, we can watch the play sheet on Wednesday

and we can listen to you and Sheil on Extra Point Taken on the Ringer NFL show as well as Philly Special. And then Sunday night, really good column on theringer.com as well. Great to see you, my friend. Thanks, Bill. Talk to you soon.

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What is the new company called? TKO Group Holdings. TKO for short, as it will be trading on the ticker as TKO. TKO. Okay. And you're going to remain, you're going to be president of WWE.

These two companies are going to work together. And I don't know if you've come on since this whole thing unfolded in a way that we could actually talk about some of the strategy stuff with it, but basically you guys are going to, this is it like combat pay-per-view live events, the sports calendar. There's some sort of like one plus one equals three entertainment piece of this that I was thinking about this weekend because we had like this big UFC, this big UFC pay-per-view. 293 was on Saturday night.

Then how does WWE work with that? How are they going to work together? I know that's an open-ended question, but how do you see it going? By the way, what did you think of the main event at 293? First of all all my son had you know eight meatheads with him eight 15 16 year old meatheads going nuts because my son was saying strickland's gonna win strickland's gonna win it was amazing it was the whole event was uh

you know great and it's been pretty reliable but i it's weird you have seen wwe both have very similar dna and the fact that people will just buy the events, not even necessarily knowing who's in the event yet, right? It's like you guys and Taylor Swift and that's it. Totally. By the way, we appreciate you putting us in with Taylor Swift. We all know how powerful her presence is. No question. We know how powerful that is at this moment in time. Look, I think if you were to ask Dana White and the Fertittas, they will tell you that a large part of how they built their enterprise was based on how WWE had built its enterprise, which was, hey, make UFC 293 the main event. And then once you announce who's in it, hey, that's even more on top of that. So if you look at WrestleMania Philly, which is

April of next year, we went on sale a month ago. So let's say nine months or so in advance of the event, we've already sold out 80% of the tickets in a stadium show for each night. And once we start announcing matches, it'll only go from there. The UFC has done an amazing job in doing their version of the same thing. And people don't even realize I'm in the main event. I mean, they're buying these tickets and they don't realize that I'm going to be taking on Scott Van Pelt. Yes, indeed. We haven't talked about that yet. So can you guys combine on weekends? What's the strategy with that? Because there's these dead sports spots in the

calendar where you get mid-February. Basically, any time in July and August seems to be available unless there's an Olympics and some other spots. Do you have a mega weekend? Have you talked about that? The conversations are just beginning now. Everybody wanted to make sure that we got all the regulatory approvals in place, Department of Justice approval, SEC approval, a couple of international approvals that we needed, and obviously we got all of those. So the conversations are just happening now. But yes, what everyone envisions is can you set up an all-star TKO weekend where if SmackDown goes on Friday and the UFC goes on Saturday with a pay-per-view and WWE goes with a premium live event on Sunday, can you do that from the same city?

Certainly a lot of cost efficiencies there in terms of production, but a lot of revenue efficiencies in terms of upside, we think there as well. And you think the crews, the different ways you present the events, do those things overlap or do they, like what parts stay separate? Well, certainly the fighters and the WWE superstars will take, stay separate as you might imagine. And yes, could you have a Ronda Rousey or Brock Lesnar come along, you know, who can cross from one to the other? Sure. But that's a once in a decade, if not longer type of thing. But in terms of production, Craig, Kevin Dunn, who's been with WWE for 40 plus years,

Craig Borsari, who's been with UFC for over a decade, who's in charge of all the production there, they've had a number of conversations on those efficiencies, how it might look, how it might work. And hopefully we have some news on that in a couple of months. Ooh, cryptic answer. Okay. What about the TV rights piece of this? Because ESPN, they did this great deal with UFC, which I'm sure they're very happy with. WWE's been doing these different deals. Is there a world where it's a one plus one equals three package for one buyer? Or do you keep them separate? Or how does that go? Listen, that's called the Bill Simmons model of negotiating when you were with ESPN,

which was, hey, if you want me, Bill Simmons, you pay X. But you're also going to take all of these other people at Y and Z. It's quite effective. That being said, you have NBCU, who is a significant partner of WWE. Disney, as you just mentioned, a significant partner of UFC. Those deals are not up at the same time. But it is interesting that you have two companies who tend to compete with each other, whether it was over the acquisition of the Fox assets a few years ago.

Just after that, as you recall, and as we've discussed previously, the Sky acquisition after that. So, you know, let's see. Let's see what happens. But we're thrilled with NBCU, we meaning WWE, UFC seems to be thrilled with Disney, but yes, it can always get better. So let's see. Is there like a brain trust for this? So UFC I think comes up before WWE.

So is UFC, they're just like, hey, we're going to do this, or is now they're, like, is Vince in that? Are you in that? Who's in that? It's WWE's up in October of 24. UFC's up about a year later. Okay.

I had that wrong. Yeah. I'm old. 10 years ago, I would have remembered that correctly. Listen, you and me both. I'm only trailing you by a couple of years here. And I know to digress for a moment when you say my son, and I said this on the last time I did your podcast, which I think was January,

when you say, hey, my son had a couple of his meathead buddies over to watch UFC 293. I do remember when he was doing wrestling moves on the bed in your hotel room at WrestleMania Dallas, which was a mere eight years ago. And now he's this full football player, you know, stud and all that. So yeah. I know. Trying to put me in a chokehold and try to do John Jones moves. I mean, the wrestling part was more fun when it was just him and a pillow. Now, now he's using other human beings.

Totally. Totally. So, you know, look, we'll see how it all shakes out. But you know, we're optimistic on the rights for both entities. How do you see, cause Vince, I know, and we'll talk about Vince. He just had back surgery, had a pretty embattled last few years, but he stayed in the business. He's come back even since the last time you came on. He's way more involved in all of these different things. you know, I would say came kind of out of the Vince school of promoter and, uh, wait, you know, kind of became bigger than the brand in some ways and synonymous with the brand. And as stars came and went, he was always there, which was basically what, what Vince has been since the mid eighties.

How do you see those two working together and what have been the early reports on how they've collaborated so i think a couple things when dana put out a quote when this deal was announced was for just after wrestlemania la in april uh dana's quote was something to the effect of i'm looking forward to working with vince and team vince is a savage in the wrestling business, something to that effect. Vince is as complimentary about Dana. If you look at the two individuals, to me, they have shockingly similar background stories. Both single parent household, both grew up without much money or resources, and both had to fight their way to the inside from the outside. So shocking similarities between the two and how they were able, through being forces of nature, build and help build these businesses to the points of where they are now. So here's how, in all likelihood, it will work. I don't

see Vince McMahon calling Dana White and saying, you should do this matchup instead of this matchup. And I don't see Dana calling and saying, why is Roman Reigns wrestling so-and-so at this event? It's more on event production, promotion. How do you make, especially a joint event, the biggest thing in the world? And I'd like to think that everyone's going to work pretty well on that. What is the update? Vince had pretty major surgery a few weeks ago and we haven't heard from a health standpoint. The details have been pretty sparse. How long before he comes back, is able to work in a railway, move around?

I mean, he's in his late 70s now. Where is he physically? Well, look, assume that he's doing it faster than he should be doing it, which one might say, hey, slow down, slow down. But again, I don't think to the Vince's

and the Dana's of the world, there is any slowing down. So he seems to be progressing quite well. It was major back surgery. He's back on his feet. And again, this is going to air on Tuesday, the day of the bell ringing. If you will, you will have seen Vince at the bell ringing, ringing that bell center stage.

He's a controlling shareholder of WWE. I've always said to him, hey, it's your company. Thank you for allowing it to become our company, but it's a big moment for him. So he'll be there. You know, I'm sure he'll be suited up as he almost always is. And he'll be ready to go. So were you surprised that this was the outcome? Cause I've seen you a few times in person. We've talked a bunch of times and especially Vince decides to sell the company. Vince leaves the company. Vince comes back dealing with a whole bunch of stuff behind the scenes that we don't need to get into. But then he basically puts the company for sale. We don't know where it's going. Everybody thinks it's going to be, you know, maybe it's a TV network. Maybe Endeavor will buy it. Maybe like the Saudis will come in over the

top rope out of nowhere with some crazy offer. Maybe it'll be some crazy hedge fund because everyone wants content. And instead, he ends up kind of combining forces with this other, you know, similar company in a lot of ways. Did you ever think that was possible? When did you think that could first maybe happen? So Vince came back in early January of this year, 2023. And he and I had a conversation where I asked him, at the time it was a private conversation, and he's certainly comfortable with me sharing the contents of it. I said, hey, give it to me straight. Are you looking to transact? Or is this sort of a side door back into your company? And he said, no, I'm looking to transact. If there are real offers there for market value of the company, we're going to do a deal. We engaged in a fulsome process with Rain as Vince's banker and a company called Mullis as WWE's banker.

We wanted to maintain church at state where, again, the controlling shareholder had a point of view and the company had a point of view. So we engaged in the process. It was robust. There were multiple offers. And at the end of the day, Vince gets to decide, again, as a controlling shareholder, it just so happened to be that Vince and WWE both felt that this was the best transaction for the shareholders and for the longevity of the company. And boom, here we are. And you felt that way too? I did.

How much of it had to do with Vince gets to stay in the action with a deal like this versus there might have been some other deals on the table where the company gets bought and new people get put in? I don't think that was a deciding factor in this. I think Vince approached it as, I want to make sure every shareholder is treated the same way I, Vincent, treated. And it was the Endeavor folks who asked him to stay in once the process was well underway and bids were already in and all of those things. So it already felt like it was going this way again once multiple bids were in. And they made the gracious offer and he accepted that position as the executive chairman of the new company. How would you describe this whole partnership from the Endeavor standpoint? So you have Endeavor's here, you have UFC and everybody there, and then you have you

guys, WWE here. There's going to be situations where somebody's going to have to make a call, right? There's going to be big picture stuff on blank. So who makes the call is ultimately, like, who's the dad in the house? Is it Endeavor? Who is it? Well, it's not me in case you were wondering that. I'm not suggesting you are. So let me tell you how it's, go ahead. What were you going to say? No, I just couldn't figure out ultimately anytime there's like a committee, you and I have talked about this probably offline a few times when things are done by a committee, when things are done with eight or nine people

instead of just one or two, sometimes that can get dicey. And in this case, I can't tell if it's a committee or if it's three people. What is it? So, by the way, you and I have discussed for pregame shows, when we would see eight, nine people sitting on a set, that'll never work. We discussed, if you recall, after the SEC did their big deal with Disney, which will come into effect in a couple of years,

and we saw the Pac-12, Big 12, Big 10, said, hey, we're all going to join forces here. You and I were both like, good luck to them in terms of who ends up carrying the short end of the stick there, clearly the Pac-12. So on this one, I think WWE decisions ultimately made by WWE, UFC decisions by UFC. Ari's the CEO, Ari Emanuel. Vince is the chairman of the board. So I don't see decisions hurting one company that helped the other. I'll give you an example. We're going through the 2024 UFC pay-per-view calendar

and WWE premium live event calendar. As you know, we call our events premium live events because there's no upcharge in the United States on them. But in essence, they're what the pay-per-views were. So WWE's position is, hey, WrestleMania is our Super Bowl. These are the dates that we have scheduled. We prefer, obviously, that UFC not go up against that. UFC says, yeah, of course, we're that UFC not go up against that. UFC says,

yeah, of course, we're not going to go up against that. And then we say, all right, what dates are important to you? Where are you going from? Ideally, what we like, especially in my opinion, if you look at the international expansion of WWE's premium live events, and you look at the UFC's already expansion, even the show this past Saturday night from Australia, you know, you could see a lot of events that, hey, WWE's going at 3 p.m. Eastern from an international location. UFC's going at 8 or 9 Eastern domestically or the opposite of that. Like a mega day. We like that, too, because you have two gates.

You have two separate merchandises. In theory, if you can get a government subsidy for the international show or the domestic show, you have subsidies and then boom, both events are right there. But by planning it in advance, I don't believe that we'll trip over each other in any way. So you're saying like UFC could be in London at 10 a.m. in the morning Pacific time and then you guys are having a live pay-per-view at five o'clock and you're just like, we're blowing it out. Today is whatever it is.

Interesting. What surprised you as you got to learn more about the UFC's business that you didn't know? Well, I've known Dana for a while and I've known a number of folks there. Craig Borsari, who I mentioned earlier, Hunter Campbell for a while. They always, and I think this surprises people who don't necessarily know them or know the WWE

folks. They all act with humility. And it's sort of like, hey, we put in a lot of work to build this juggernaut, but we want to get better. And I think that's always been the mentality of WWE, rather than WWE saying, hey, we're WWE. We're the best in sports entertainment. UFC saying, hey, we're UFC. We dominate combat sports. It's not that way. It's been quite polite. It's been productive. And assume there are moments down the road. Not every relationship is polite all the time, as you know. But I do think the relationship's productive all the time. The goal is to make TKO a better enterprise, the shareholders, the stock price, and the stockholders, which include a lot of the executives. All right. I have to ask this.

Please. You love boxing. We've had a lot of boxing conversations over the years. Boxing's all over the place. It's as usual. There's a million different belts. There's a bunch of different people. There's all these different promoters. You have the UFC piece, the dominant one. You have the WWE piece, the dominant one. Why wouldn't there eventually be a boxing piece under this TKO thing, which is named TKO, which by the way is originally a boxing term. So it was boxing next. How about you turned your back on boxing,

you didn't go to Crawford Spence? No, that's not true. I was on vacation. I should have gone to Crawford Spence, though. And then you and your son went to the UFC fight a week or two prior or something to that effect? We did. But that was because that's what he wanted to do.

And he now runs my life. Because as you know, when we get old, these are the people who are going to be taking care of us. Are these people who might remember every grudge? Don't think that doesn't hang over my head all the time now. No, listen, my kids are a little younger than yours, but I'm already feeling that. It's like, if these guys check out on me, it's probably a reflection more of me than it is them. Totally. We can't have that. So look, in terms of boxing, we'll see. We'll see what the

future brings. You're giving me the we'll see answer? We don't know yet. This is new. We're just up and running as of today. We got to focus on synergies, reducing costs and making more money. And then we'll see if expansion uh is in the cards for us but it's wide open boxing just so you hear that you know clearly from me and we love what some other folks are doing we love what logan paul has done in the boxy space we love what other folks have done in the box space we love what crawford's doing in terms of the dominant you know victory over spence but yeah there's so much wrong with that sport and many of the dominant victory over Spence, but yeah, there's so much wrong with that sport and many of the other individual sports built. The conversation you and I have had previously,

1984, and you know hoops obviously far, far better than I do. If I ask somebody in 1984, who are the most popular athletes in the country? There's some version of Bird, Magic, Carl Lewis, Mary Lou Retton, maybe Evander Holyfield, Evil Knievel, Sugar Ray Leonard, all the individual sports stars. But what happened was the leagues became the leagues and the individual sports outside of WWE and subsequently MMA with the UFC, they all stayed the same to the point where if I said to you, who's the 100 meter champ right now? I don't know the answer to that question. So that's a sport that could be fixed in the individual sport. Boxing, who's the heavyweight champion?

You and I both know, hey, it's basically Tyson Fury, but the other guy, Usyk, has three belts and all of this chaos. That's a sport that can be fixed if you have the right people and process in place. The problem is people have been trying to fix boxing since as long as we've been alive and then before that, and there's always been these big ideas. I remember that. Remember the Don King one in the late 70s that ended up, or is it Bob Arum?

What was that heavyweight one? They ended up having the big corruption. That was a great one. Don King, ABC, Bob Iger, the head of ABC Sports at the time. And Scott Ledoux, if you remember him, the white heavyweight fighter, Minnesota contender passed away a couple of years ago. Scott Ledoux really won a fight,

but wasn't given the decision and sort of stormed out of the ring. And it's my understanding that it was Bob Arum who called Bob Iger to say, hey, just so you know, this is sort of a sham thing. Iger believed Arum. Arum was right. They canceled the tournament. Things went awry between ABC and Don King. But yes, you know, King did a lot for the sport. By the way, black man, tough sport to get into, tough sport to dominate, you know, had prior, you know, stuff in his life. He came and dominated it. But there

was also a ton of negative. Yes. There was a ton of negative with that, as you know. It feels like boxing has never been figured out correctly. And then you watch something like what the UFC has been able to do. Because there was a time with the UFC when it didn't seem like it was going to totally work, that it wasn't going to be sustainable

because they weren't going to be able to keep the stars. And Vince's whole mindset with this is the complete opposite. He's trying to create characters that he can have for 20, 25, 30 years. UFC, you're lucky to get a guy for seven years.

Different mindset, but it just seems like it's much easier to regenerate stars with UFC. One guy leaves, the next guy comes. I think there was a tipping point moment for the UFC where it tipped in their favor. And as you know, that's with all the hard work that they put into it.

I think that was May of 2007. May of 2007 was Floyd Mayweather against Oscar De La Hoya. Big, big deal for boxing. It was also Rampage Jackson against Chuck L chuck liddell right i was gonna say liddell yeah yes so i think what happened was because of the boxing pay-per-view

did so well the boxing folks like hey we're here to stay if you think back to that fight sports illustrated when it was still sports, its cover story was the fight to save boxing question mark with Delahoye up front, Floyd Mayweather in the background. The UFC just kept building and building and building. So all of a sudden, you fast forward to 2016 when the Fertittas and Dana White sell to Endeavor. You got Ronda Rousey twice a year, Conor McGregor twice a year, Brock Lesnar twice a year, Jon Jones and Cormier presumably twice a year. Boom, you built an empire. The fight game, as you know, is amazing. Boxing's amazing.

The problem is it's just not amazing often enough. And if you look at the UFC, they fixed that, in my opinion. Yeah, and then it just seems like every couple of months they get O'Malley knocks somebody out in Boston and now it's like, oh, now this guy's a star. Now we can have him headline a pay-per-view. And WWE, we've talked in previous pods about how hard it is to build stars

and keep stars in wrestling. And WWE, for these things ebb and flow, it's a little like basketball. For whatever reason, the last couple of years, WWE is just crushing new stars. And out of nowhere, you get Sami Zayn and you get LA Knight and just these people that become A-list dudes. And then there's other years you go back in time

and you think like, man, that guy was in the second biggest SummerSlam event. Or, wow, that was the tag team match where it was just clearly they didn't have enough stars, but you guys are in the boom now. So UFC seems like it's more sustainable, but I would say this is one of the better WWE stretches right now for star power, right? in combat sports is the next one never looks like the last one. So you, you see folks, WWE included, you get a John Cena. And part of the thought is,

Oh, we just need to fight, find the next John Cena. There is no next John Cena. Yeah. Right. The next one never looks like the last one. If you look at the UFC,

same thing. So when you saw Conor McGregor, you know, who obviously a mega star in terms of marketability, and then the kid, Darren Till came around and it was, Oh, Darren Till is going to be the next Conor McGregor, who obviously a megastar in terms of marketability. And then the kid Darren Till came around. And it was, oh, Darren Till is going to be the next Conor McGregor. There's never going to be a next Conor McGregor. If you look at boxing, when everyone was looking for the next Muhammad Ali, it didn't look like Muhammad Ali.

It looked like Sugar Ray Leonard. When everyone was looking for the next Ray Leonard, it didn't look like Ray Leonard. It looked like Mike Tyson. And then Oscar, Floyd, Pacquiao, whatever that might've been. So I think sometimes one or an entity can become fixated on, hey, this is our next so-and-so. I've never seen it work. LA Knight's the first LA Knight. And that's part of why we think that he's resonating. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah, the Oscar, Floyd, Pacquiao era, which was cool as it was happening. I don't look back at it nearly as fondly as I do

the Leonard Hag or Hearns, that whole stretch, or what Ali had with the heavyweights, or even how weird the heavyweight division got in the early 90s when Tyson popped in and then popped back in, and Holyfield, and Riddick Bowe. it just seemed like we were having awesome fights every couple months. And it just felt like it was back. I look back at those 2000s, especially then you throw the Klitschko's in. And it's just like, ah, man, wasn't great. And then all of a sudden it came back again.

By the way, Bill, I see it the same way. So, you know, when you're on TikTok, or at least we all know TikTok is listening because every time I go on, there's like a WWE clip, a UFC clip, a boxing clip, or like a dog chasing another dog. I don't know what that one is all about, but it's something like that. So if you look back to that era, you just talked about in boxing, everyone fought everyone. And yeah, you can say, well, Riddick Bowe never fought Lennox Lewis. Well, yeah, Riddick Bowe fought Andrew Gulotta twice and he fought Holyfield three times and those are all wars and Holyfield fought everybody. And then Holyfield literally fought

everybody. I mean, he would walk into the parking lot to fight people. Totally. And then by the way, off to the side, oh, you got Lennox Lewis and Tommy Morrison and Ray Mercer and all of these other guys. And you look at it with, as you said, Mayweather Pacquiao. Are you really thinking about Barrera, Morales from the early 2000s? I just don't think it resonated. One has to fight the other who has to fight the other. And boxing hasn't done that or wasn't doing that at that time. Well, that's what I appreciated about Crawford Spence because Crawford beat the hell out

of him. It was an old school, one-sided, oh my God, these were supposed to be the two best and this isn't close. But I'll be interested to see how Spence responds. But the butt kicking that he took in that fight was why we had this 15-year stretch where nobody wanted to fight anybody because you couldn't risk that, right? Your whole brand becomes, oh yeah, you're the guy who got crushed by Crawford. Now you're not, you know, you can't open a pay-per-view now.

No, I don't recall seeing a 50-50 fight that was that one-sided. Right. I'm sure it's there, but outside of that first round, I think Crawford won every second of every round. And I had not seen such a one-sided fight in what was almost a 50-50 fight. I don't recall it. So maybe not in decades. Yeah. It was like that Cowboys-Giants game on Sunday. When the WWE, when they have this little

star boom like what they're having now, how much of it is just luck? How much of it is realizing that you need to give the, you know, the newer people or the up and comers like versus like just kind of trotting out the same people over and over again. Cause I always feel like when WWE gets into trouble, it's like year 15 of this, like the famous one is Kane and Undertaker. I just don't know how many times you could have that, that match and they just had it. And it just went on for 15 years.

It seems like they're more willing to push newer people and newer faces and put, you know, kind of, I don't want to say unproven, but semi proven people in really big spots. And I don't think that they were necessarily doing that unless it was out of necessity. Like during the CM Punk era, it kind of became out of necessity, Daniel

Bryan, like some of those people. And then you go back to the late nineties, famously WCW is crushing them and they kind of have to give these dude chances. So what's the mindset now? How did it work this time? I think, and I lived through what I'm calling, just for this conversation, the Dominic Mysterio build. Yeah. So when I started with WWE, which is now well over three years ago, height of COVID, Dominic, young wrestler,

obviously Ray's son, was sort of seen as Ray's son, by the way, great kid, great young man, but it wasn't really working. I think that the patience that Vince and Paul Levesque, Triple H, show with the talent, you saw it with Roman, where people were not buying him as the monster face, if you will. And then all of a sudden, during COVID, he came back to the Florida facility when we were taping down there, came back as a heel and boom, Roman Reigns takes off. Dominic Mysterio is, hey, I'm the good son of Ray Mysterio. It was great. They stuck with it. They, again, Vince Paul, the creative team,

turned him into a heel. And all of a sudden- It was amazing. Amazing. You can't even hear him speak on the microphone because the boos are so loud. And this is a kid who's in his early 20s. So if he stays healthy and the creative stays strong, he can go for a long period of time. And I think the sticking with it and giving people a shot to really be the best versions of themselves on the mic, LA Knight, Dominic Mysterio, just two off the top of my head. Jay Uso. Jay Uso's a good one.

One of the Usos, a mid-card tag team, if you will, and then boom, over the last year and a half or so, just exploded with the Bloodline storyline. Jay as a singles performer, Jimmy as a singles performer, and Roman going to the next level with Paul

Heyman, of course, I think sticking with what you think can work is probably a good plan. I would say the two biggest successes Vince had in this regard ever were Roman, which you mentioned, because for whatever reason, it didn't hit initially and people felt like it was being force-fed.

It didn't fit the total prototype of what the WWE face of WWE would be. And it was clear they needed a turn of heel, which with Cena, they never did. So they always danced that half of the crowd doesn't like him, half of the crowd does, and that became the gimmick.

With Roman, it really seemed like something had happened. It seemed like Vince missed, but they stuck with with it and i would say he's the best guy since since the rock from from and i know cena was good and a lot of people had good runs but um for mike skills physicality uh the ability to work a crowd, that was a slow burn. I mean, that took like, I would say four or five years. And now he's like, I think one of the best people in the history of the company. But Rock was the other one because Rock completely failed when he came out, right? You know, and they actually like pulled this character

and he disappeared and they rethought it. And then he comes back with the nation in domination and then all of a sudden it took off. But, you know, the patience makes you wonder like if they had shown patience

with a couple other people, was it just those two isolated incidents? But it does seem like they're getting that lesson better. Like, man, this stuff's like a stew. You know,

it could take months. I'm sure Triple H must be a big part of that, right? Because that was him. It took him a few years to hit too. It could take months. I'm sure Triple H must be a big part of that, right? Because that was him. It took him a few years to hit, too. Think about a couple of folks that you mentioned. When The Rock

came in as Rocky Maivia, a third-generation wrestler, smiling with the tassels from his arms, boos throughout. Even worse than boos, no response. Right. Yeah, that's the worst, the silence. The worst, the worst. And then all of a sudden, and I've heard this story from both individuals involved in the story separately, from Vince and from Dwayne Johnson, that Dwayne and Vince had a

conversation at Madison Square Garden. Again, Rock was a face. And Rock said, let me go out, let me do my thing. Let me sort of talk like I talk. And Vince said, let me go out. Let me do my thing. Let me sort of talk like I talk. And Vince said something to the effect of, do it. Go get him. And it was that night, the Rocky Sucks chants had already started and all that stuff, where he sort of lit it up. And The Rock took fire. Right?

You saw it with Stone Cold. So we both remember stunning Steve Austin. Oh, yeah. You know, world-class championship wrestling. And then over to ECW. right you saw it with stone cold so we both remember stunning steve austin oh yeah you know world-class championship wrestling and then over to ecw and it's sort of by the way the hollywood blondes with brian pillman you know think about that hollywood blondes from a guy who's clearly from texas or at least you think when you're watching him clearly from the south the hollywood blondes and then he comes over as the ringmaster and you're like what this is steve austin as a ringmaster it's not working and then all of a sudden at that king of the ringmaster and you're like, what? This is Steve Austin as a ringmaster. It's not working. And then all of a sudden, at that King of the Ring, the Jake Roberts match, you know, hey, you can say your psalms, you can say this and that. Austin 316 says, I just to your point with Roman, with the bloodline stuff,

when he enters the venue, everyone sort of knows the champ is here. And he sort of perceived the way that they had built him to be perceived, and he's delivered all the goods on that. But yes, Paul's extremely patient with it. Vince is as well. As long as the person is sort of leaning in and wanting to get better, an extreme amount of patience. Like with any employer, if your young folks come to you and say, this is bullshit, I should be much bigger. You should be pushing me more. And you say, okay, what do you think we can do to make it bigger?

I don't know. You should figure it out. That never works in any business. Yeah. But when someone's actually a good partner, it can work if they have the talent and it has. The bloodline thing has been incredible. From afar, I mean, fair to say pretty tumultuous last three, four years. I think that thing that surprised me the most was Steph leaving because it seemed like she had kind of become the anointed

successor in a lot of different ways and seemed like she really loved being in the business. And that one took me by surprise. Is she gone? Is it not coming back? How does that play out with her? Yeah. She decided to step away. Initially, she was on a leave of absence. Some of the Vince stuff started to happen. He stepped out for a moment. She was asked by Vince, by myself, by the board to come back. She came back, which we were extremely, uh, gracious, uh, for her, uh, in doing so. And ultimately when Vince came back, she decided that, Hey, she was ready to go and step out. I respect the decision.

Uh, I wish she hadn't done that. And she knows that for me personally, she's a terrific executive and a terrific person. That's her decision. Her relationship with Vince is theirs. And once she made it, I have total respect for the decision. So is she like out of the business? I mean, this is like a really smart businesswoman. Is she just out? She's not going to do anything? Well, I don't know what the future holds, but with Vince as the chairman of the company, Paul, the head of creative, me in the role that I'm in, Stephanie wanted to do something with WWE. Of course, WWE would embrace that. The WWE universe would embrace that. I think she's enjoying some time off. And you know the drill. After grinding hard, as you've grinded hard, as she grinded hard, to take a few months off, she still has school-age children. She and Paul do.

I think she's enjoying herself. Couldn't she come back and do an angle where she and Tess are having an affair? I think Tess passed away a couple of years ago. Oh, no. The new Tess. Yeah. The new Tess. Tess's brother or something?

Yes. So with the Vince stuff, you expect him to be back full speed, running a lot of the stuff like he did? Or you think he shares it with you and Paul? How does that go? Well, look, I think there's always a share with Vince. So I'll give you an example. When I started with the company and we were going through org charts and all this corporate boring stuff. And I said to Vince, I said, Vince, these folks who have worked with you, Kevin Dunn, Paul Levesque, for decades, it would be absurd to put them under me. What am I going to say to Kevin Dunn? Why did you call Vince McMahon directly on this issue? Vince,

you can talk to anyone you want at any time. The more calibrated we are, the better the results are, in my opinion. And that's what we set out to do. And I think that's what we did. So Vince has earned the right to call people about whatever he'd like to discuss as it relates to WWE. So he'll call me with different business side deals that have happened. We'll have a dialogue about it. He's often in touch with Paul on the creative side, and that's what he's earned. So let's talk media stuff for one second, just because I think you're one of the smartest sports media guests I can have on. There's been a lot of stuff going on with ESPN the last couple years, but especially the last six months, where for the first time, they looked really vulnerable. And we've talked about it a few times on this podcast, most recently last week with Ben Thompson

talking about this charter deal was the first time somebody really looked them in the eye and was like, I don't care if you're with us or not. And ESPN blanked and they made a deal in time for Monday Night Football, which will be last night by the time people hear this. ESPN also did that deal with Penn to do the gambling app, which honestly seemed like a money grab more than anything. If you're going to get in the gambling space, I'm not sure why you wouldn't be with the SEC or the Big Ten of the gambling space. They went with a second level app, basically, but it seemed like a pretty big money price. A lot of the decisions seem to be geared toward either saving money or some sort of quick fix financial thing. And I can't understand why. So what is your theory? So I think a couple of things. You and I both agreed that the real standoff would either end or might never end by the

start of what would be last night's New York Jets, Aaron Rodgers versus Buffalo Bills game. And I think the reason we both thought that is Charter, as you know, is primarily New York, Los Angeles, and Dallas. So remove Dallas for the moment. New York and Los Angeles are not big college football cities, as you know. And yes, if UFC is good, then LA will tune in. But those are not college football cities. So I thought it was a big flinch. The, hey, we're going dark the first weekend of college football. I didn't think that was a big deal. I also think it's, as you know, it's really hard to cancel your cable. This is not like just press them, right? You have to call and you get transferred overseas and you're pressing buttons and all

this stuff. So I don't know that Charter felt any pain off that college football week, those 10 days or so that went by. The key was always, you said it, I said it, I'm sure many others said it, Aaron Rodgers with the New York Jets on Monday Night Football against the Buffalo Bills, who went 13-3 last season, as you know. That was going to be the real line of demarcation, and boom, the deal got done a couple hours before that. I think what you're seeing now, in my opinion, this Microsoft Activision transaction, which the FTC tried to block and which a court overturned, which now Microsoft and Activision are going through, there was an article on Puck. I know you do some stuff with felony and that accrues great. There was an article on Puck which laid out the legal strategy for how the Microsoft lawyers put the onus of disproving that onto the government.

And I think entities that are looking at possibly transacting, merging, being acquired, acquiring, now say they might have been looking for the next presidential election to say, hey, is there going to be a new administration? Is it going to be easier to get these deals through? I think now there's a map. So whenever you see companies starting to maximize profit in EBITDA, you know the shrill, you sold your company, right? Why do you do that? Hey, the higher the profit, the multiple on the profit means more money to the founders and the owners of the company. So when I see Disney doing deals like that, it makes me think that could a final chapter be selling more than

just ESPN or looking for more than just a strategic partner for ESPN? It could be. I don't know what's on the inside of that. But I know if you ask anybody, if you go over to Warner Brothers Discovery and Comcast, well, hey, that seems like a natural merger. If you can get the merger through, I think it's much easier. I don't want to say easier, but you have a healthier chance of getting it through now than you did even a mere three months ago. And I think there's something about the Disney-Apple thing to me. Yes. When I saw Bob Iger on the stage at that Apple conference with the 3D, when they introduced

the 3D glasses, and he said Disney Plus is going to be available on day one of those glasses. We know his affinity for Steve Jobs. We know, of course, Jobs passed away. We know Iger was on the board there. I'm not saying they're trying to sell to Apple, but I look at Apple. What does Apple need? They need the intellectual property. So they don't need ABC.

They don't need that, but they need what's behind it so they can put consistent content onto their platforms. Again, what you already know, iPhone, not as big internationally as it is domestically. Disney, big internationally. So you put that content there, you can sell more iPhones, you can increase your subscriber price, and boom. Could that be what they're looking at? Maybe, but I don't know. So I haven't talked about this on the pod, and it's out there.

Apple and Disney, oh my god. We're not inventing the atom on this one. Yes, sir. But a lot of breadcrumbs leading this way. Breadcrumbs from the sense of this MOS deal that Apple made, which was a pretty aggressive,

interesting, creative sports deal, right? That put them in the game in a real way. And I just didn't feel like that was an isolated thing. And they messed around with baseball last year. It didn't totally work. Well, it didn't work. But the message thing seems like it's worked a little bit. So you have that. You have Amazon with the football. You have the basketball coming up. In general, I just feel like if you're Amazon or Apple, why would you spend a kajillion dollars making your own content when you're basically the gateway for all these people to rent or buy

videos or they're on the service already or they're there and oh my God, you have Thursday night football. It would seem like it would make more sense for them to buy the library and the live sports from somebody else. And if that's the case, why wouldn't it be Disney with ESPN and some of the other stuff they have? It just seems like kind of a no-brainer. And then from the Iger side, he's a big swings guy. He always has been, right? Pixar, Marvel, those were like Star Wars. These were giant swings that he was like two, three years ahead of. And I'm not positive. Maybe he's super psyched that he came back, right? Why did he come back?

I don't, you know, I was like a boxer. Like, why does a boxer come back? I think he missed being in the ring. So if you're going to come back, take a big swing. What's the biggest swing you can take? Apple bought Disney. Oh my God. Now I'm going to be part of this whole Apple family.

And it's great for Apple. And it's the mood that I would would scare me the most if I was the other competitors right if you're I don't know Amazon if you care about content at all maybe you don't even care about it that much but or if I'm Warner Brothers and HBO I'm like oh no those two are teaming up that's bad. So I'm with you. I feel like it's kind of looming in the background here. By the way, Bill, to your point on the MLS-Apple deal, I was not paying attention to MLS when it was with ESPN.

And when Apple announced the deal at the price point they announced it, I'm like, man, that seems odd to me. Well, what you saw was Apple and the MLS, a very capable commissioner, in my opinion, of MLS has done some very good stuff there. Apple and MLS teamed up to get Messi from going to Saudi, where as you know, you've seen the amount of dollars that checks are being cut for soccer players there. So how did they do it? They teamed up together, rev share, upside, whatever endorsement deal is done. And boom, Messi's there where he was in Los Angeles a week and a half ago at a sold out stadium where people were going nuts.

So Apple clearly put in the time to build, not just putting their money, but putting their effort behind it also. And yeah, I think Bob Iger looks there and says, well, what's my final chapter going to be at Disney? It's not going out and buying a different version of Pixar. I'm not suggesting that there is a different version. He's done that, right? It's worked. But the Lucas thing, it got a little watered down. They need to pull back on that. They have pulled back on that. Even with the Marvel stuff, you're seeing him saying, hey, we're pulling back on that. So it's not about going and buying new intellectual property. It's about going and transacting to change the entire business. And to me, Apple would

make sense for that. And Amazon, not as much, right? I don't think so. I think Amazon, but keep in mind what you already know. Their primary driver is still how do you get people to buy on Prime? So whether it's Thursday night football or Whole Foods or whatever it might be, and yes, could Disney drive that? Sure. I think Amazon's focus is on different things.

I agree with that. And I don't really know if there's a lurking like up and comer in this, like if we're going to compare it to like a heavyweight division and you have all these different people. Cause we know, especially as the writer's strike keeps going,

some of these streamers are either going to have to merge or figure out some sort of deal or whatever. Just a different business model. I don't know what it's going to look like, but to me, consolidation seems like it would make the most sense. But what do I know? Absolutely. Same. What do I know? Absolutely.

Agreed. Same. What do I know? The NBA thing would be the last thing, too, that we need your wisdom on. We talked about this the last time, so now it's September, and the sports stuff has become even more and more popular,

and it could go 19 different ways. What's your prediction right now? So look, I'd look for partnership on that also. So as you know, it's split in the US, two ways right now. Does NBC go to what is now Warner Brothers Discovery and say, hey, let's split a package where we NBC, you get Tuesday nights, you guys keep Thursday nights. And oh, by the way, Warner Brothers produced all the games for us. So we don't have to go and take on that added cost. That could happen. You know, I'm hearing some rumblings of that. Does ESPN partner with Apple on their package to do something there? Again, that would foreshadow what could be coming a far

bigger and better transaction. But I'd look for that on this latestadow what could be coming, a far bigger and better transaction. But I'd look for that on this latest, on the next NBA deal, because the numbers that the NBA wants and the numbers that they deserve, it's going to be tough for two separate entities just to go forward and pay that. But if you get a combination of four or six entities, if they're working with each other,

that's a way to keep it organized and to get maximum financial value. I feel like NBC is going to be heard from in this. And I don't know why. I just have this gut feeling that they're going to be back in some way. And I just don't understand the same appeal for the TNT side anymore as the cable audience is starting to flee and nobody under 30 even, you know, like our kids don't even know where channels are. So it only matters what app you're on at this point for people under 30, it feels like.

So where does that go? And how does TNT fit into that? You know? And that's why I think Warner Brothers hustled with that sports app. So they were like, look, here's where you would watch it eventually. That seemed like that was the point of that.

I totally agree with you. Look, whether Warner Brothers, TNT, TBS, TruTV, their other basic cable assets, at a certain point, you're going to see some sort of slowdown there. Slowdown meaning shut some of them down. So we just saw it on the Charter Disney thing. Okay, yes, we'll pay an increased the charter Disney thing. Okay. Yes. We'll pay an increased rate for ESPN and some other things,

but Hey, we're not going to carry free form Disney junior or whatever it might be. You saw NBC. You was the first one to shut down NBC sports network and to say, okay, let's migrate that content over to USA and put it on Peacock. So we can keep the USA USA monthly subscriber rate up there. It was a smart move.

You're going to see, I think, Disney do it. You're going to see Warner Brothers do it because they have to do it. And yeah, the pitch to the NBA is not still DirecTV, Channel 245, TNT, Thursday nights. It's, hey, you want your NBA hoops? You want Charles Barkley? You got to come over to this app. And if they can get that right, which I think they will, they a good chance of doing it it's i we're from the cable generation it was weird even when espn was gone for a few days to have to go to the app for basic stuff it's like a whole

different choice right just first turning on tv here it's 300 type in 300 espPN comes on, but now, or the five, six, seven days when it was off, uh, I'm turning on my TV. I'll go to Roku. Now I got to find my ESPN app that comes up. Oh, here are all the boxes. And it was like this four step process.

And I found myself like half the time I was like, eh, just, just like go to Netflix or somewhere else. Like just the moment it became more complicated, they kind of lost half of my viewing. By the way, Bill, Howard Stern said this on his radio show years ago.

He said, I like to have five parties at my house, but I'm always concerned that like the device is not going to work when I invite people over. It's one of the significant flaws of cable. And again, you and I, cable or satellite, we've talked about this. Tell me what other business could you say? If I said, hey, Bill, let's get together in significant flaws of cable. And again, you and I, cable or satellite, we've talked about this. Tell me what other business could you say? If I said, hey, Bill, let's get together in a couple of days.

You said, okay, great, Nick. Come to my office and I'll see you anywhere between 8 a.m. and noon. And I'm, okay, so I'm like hanging out. And then 1155, I go up to your assistant and say, hey, I was supposed to see Bill by noon. What's going on? Oh, he can't make it today. I'd be like, fuck this guy. And you'd be like, hey, that's right. But that's how it is with cable and satellite. Somehow they got away with it. They allowed other people to enter

because of that, in my opinion, lazy type of business. And yeah, when something gets taken away, you saw it. You wouldn't remember this because you're not man of the people like I am. You're a very, very wealthy person. But when meals went away in coach after 9-11, they never came back. Once it's taken away, the audience, the customer moves on. I remember that. How dare you? I remember that. You know what I'm saying. You're my first friend that I knew non-rich who became rich-rich. Please, can I borrow some money? That was the setup for that.

Well, now you're doing great too. All right. So TKO, we're off where it's happening. And what is the first big thing that's going to happen with TKO after this whole week? Listen, we're up and running. We're hyped on all of that. We're putting together a big schedule for 2024, obviously next year. Let's see what we have in store, but we think the audience is going to love it and they're going to be this and it's stupid. Nobody cares when they release the schedule. The NFL, people seem to care a little bit more. I still don't understand it because I'm like, what do I care?

Week two, oh my God, it's going to be Minnesota and Philly. If you guys released your schedule ahead of time, I actually feel like that would be genuinely impactful. If you had a schedule release day on December 10th and it's like, here's everything we're thinking about this year. Mark these weekends off. Here are the locations. I do think that would work and be a thing. So that's my one idea for you. Either you're monitoring our conversations with the UFC about what we want to do to make these things bigger.

Again, the NFL draft. I think you and I were both there the first time in Philly where they took it out of New York and hundreds of thousands of people there. What is there like that for UFC and WWE that could work? That's something that we're hyper-focused on. It would be funny if you guys had a

draft where you just had like six dates you both wanted and you did like a snake draft. Did a coin flip. Dana and Vince. It was like, alright, August 17th is the number one date here we go boom

listen we'll have to bring you on as a full time consultant but I know you're too wealthy for that now so you priced out well you're dialing it up

alright Nick Codd alright congrats on everything good luck with all this appreciate the time back at you thanks for everything Bill

take care thank you alright that's it for the podcast thing. Good luck with all this. Appreciate the time. Back at you. Thanks for everything, Bill. Take care. Thank you. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti for producing. Thanks to Nick Khan and Sean Fantasy and Benjamin Solak as well. Don't forget, new rewatchables. We did Black Cat. I'm also

on the Big Picture Denzel Washington movie draft. And I think we're going to be banging out the first two episodes of The Morning Show on Prestige TV because me and Amanda Dobbins, you know, we did season two. We can't figure out what the hell's going on in this show.

I'm sure season three is going to be even crazier. But we're going to be watching that tonight, Tuesday night, and hopefully doing a podcast Wednesday or Thursday. Stay tuned for that. I'll see you on this feed on Thursday with the Red Hot Million Dollar Picks and a bunch of guests as well. Enjoy the middle of the week.

Sorry, Jets fans. I want to see them on the way. So I don't have. Must be 21 plus and president select states. FanDuel is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with Kansas Star Casino, LLC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit fanduel.com slash RG. In Colorado, Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Tennessee, and Virginia. You can call 1-800-NEXTSTEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 in Arizona. Call 1-888-789-777

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