The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Jokic Effect, a Murray What-If Game, a Most-Likely-to-Be-Traded Draft, and Kyle’s Wedding With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: June 12, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo, and they start by talking about Nikola Jokic and the Denver Nuggets' impressive play to take a 3-1 lead. They also discuss whether the Nuggets would have been in a position to win a championship sooner if Jamal Murray hadn't injured his ACL (29:50). Later, Bill and Ryen draft guys they could see on a different team by the start of next season, and Bill tells some stories from Kyle's wedding (1:17:07). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out http://theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details.Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Steve Ceruti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, finals talk, basketball, Kyle's wedding. It's all next. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good.

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So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new Rewatchables over the weekend. Our schedule is all messed up, but Jennifer Lawrence came on and we did Dumb and Dumber. I know, every once in a while, we like to just get weird on the Rewatchables. We have another one coming on Wednesday as well. The podcast schedule for me is going to be tonight, obviously.

Monday night, game five, going to be breaking down whatever happens with the special guest, and then Thursday. So we're doing a little Sunday, Monday, Thursday schedule, and then rewatchables I think is actually going up Tuesday. So that is my schedule. Rosillo is up next. We're going to talk finals and

Jokic and all the storylines we feel like are still sitting out there. We're also going to have who might be on another team two months from now draft. And we're going to talk about Nifika's wedding. So there you go. It's all next first, our friends from ProJet. All right, we're taping this. It is a little after 5 o'clock Eastern time. I'm on East Coast time because I'm here for Nephew Kyle's wedding,

which happened the other night. We're going to talk about that at the the end i have some wedding stories for you the nuggets are up 3-1 in the finals and it feels like we're heading toward a nuggets winning in five scenario they are favored by nine and a half points um the heat are two and six in their last eight games which is nothing that's has to be one of the worst records of any team that's in game five of the finals, one of the worst streaks. Let's start with Jokic though,

because I was watching Djokovic win the French Open today. And I was thinking about how there's been these tennis players in my life. They're usually not from here. And then people, they don't resonate for whatever way with the American audience. And we come up with all these different reasons for it. But sometimes it just doesn't happen for people.

I still think it's in play for it to happen with Jokic. I just think he's so new that people don't really know it. But I also feel like there might be some foreign tennis player stuff going on here where he's awesome, but people are like, cool. But it's also bouncing off people. I know people have been talking about Jokic ad nauseum, but I'm still somewhat perplexed that people who either love basketball, like it, or are casual fans don't watch the Nuggets and watch how they play and watch Jokic and just be like, this guy's amazing.

And that's like the only outcome. But it's not. It's not the only outcome with this. And I don't't fully understand it i know we've talked about a lot we've talked about on on this on some pods but let's say they blow out miami and they and it's just an exclamation point they went in five i don't feel like it's going to be much different for him so why well when you said he's new i know what you mean because he's not new-new, but it's new in the way the playoffs work, where when you start to put together a little bit of a run, you don't even necessarily have to win the title, but it's like, oh, wait, you're a real guy. You have to be somebody that's accounted for when you're trying to figure out how teams are going to do in both conferences. But the level that he's been at now for the two MVP seasons and then this season,

and then to take it to another level in the playoffs, that part of it may be new. Like some of the stuff that I see, I'm kind of like, you know what, you're just telling on yourself. You didn't watch him. You had formed an opinion on him. It was negative. And whether it was because you were rooting for your guy

or it's an anti international player thing which is totally totally part of this by the way um i just based on a one tweet that i had this past week which you know i don't even know if we'll bother getting into it today but there's a real protective kind of american basketball thing that lives out there which is going to be anti anybody um but you But this is also kind of the coronation. Some of the other things you've talked about are taking the belt. So there's different groups to it. People that didn't pay attention, people that did, that didn't realize it, questions you

have about him. I mean, what he is doing right now is so absurd that whatever that lack of respect or lack of attention is, it's all gone. It's all going to be gone. That's also part of the reward of just winning a championship is that now you're not going to be at year 10 or 11 of your career going, yeah, he's pretty good, and I know he's efficient, but you don't get to say it about him, which is as great as the ring itself.

Yeah, we see this happen in football sometimes. Elway was my favorite one of these when he won that first Super Bowl. And people were like, okay, that's it. No more Elway combos. We're done. Put them in the attic. Put them in a box. Put some tape over them, and we're done.

To me, with the Jokic thing, some of it has to do with what's going to happen next. Because I do think this team is poised to... This isn't, to me me a one-year team. And I want to go into some of the stuff that I think people have missed a little bit about how good this Nuggets team has been. But then the stats, it's funny, the stats have gotten more complicated in basketball, you know, the points per 100 possessions, all the stuff we use that we like, PR, the win shares, the box stats, there's a million of them. And it's funny how simple points, assists, and rebounds can be.

Or it's like, you know what's a really good metric? Points, assists, and rebounds in a game. And if somebody has a lot of those, that always helps. I always do that 42 club. There's also a 50 club that I didn't even really think about before. He's going to be in it if they win the finals, or even he'd have to basically go in the complete tank the rest of the way and they'd have to lose. But Russell did it four times, Wilt twice. But then you look at the other names on the list, 2018 LeBron, which was an iconic LeBron season,

it was just him and a bunch of role players. 1976, Doc, Julius, last season in the NBA, Kareem on the Bucs when it was just him basically and nobody else. And then West in 65 and Eldridge in 62. And you see him in that company, just with the most simple stats we have in basketball and the impact that he has, I'm ready to start talking about him on that last level because I do think it's that special. And the one piece that was missing was, can you do it on the biggest stage? Can he win a title doing it this way? It's like, all right, we checked those boxes too. So now I'm willing to talk about him and Bird and Magic and Bill Walton and Russell in the 60s, who I think was a way better passer than people realized.

And just these rare, rare, rare players that just elevate everybody around them. I'm ready for the combo. I don't think this is a fluke. I think this team's going to be here for the rest of the decade. They're going to be able to keep it together. And I think this is the beginning of something. Where do you stand on that piece of it? Well, it's because of Jokic.

Like, I've seen some stuff where, you know, look, you get sick of covering the same thing over and over and over again. What are the new story angles? Like, what can you do? And I saw a couple things about, like, how Aaron Gordon was finally allowed to be who he needs to be. And you're like, oh, he's playing with Jokic? Right. You know, like, you know, it would have been cool if he was a ball handling small forward he can create a little bit more offense for himself when he was at orlando but it was pretty clear there despite what you had

hoped he could evolve into you're like you know he kind of looks like a small five power forward you know like that that would be great um you know mur, there'll be a push to, well, wait, is Murray actually better than all these other point guards? And look, some of the all-star stuff for Murray, it's like, well, you got hurt, man. You got hurt in the windows or you probably would have already been in an all-star game. So sometimes there's weird paths and there's these oddities of how you look and go, how could that guy never have done this? All right, well, you want to go through it? It's like the Russell Wilson not having a first-place MVP vote. And you go, wow, that's crazy.

And you're like, it isn't. Go through it year by year. It's not that big of a deal. So the summary sounds offensive for Murray. So what I would say, it's not even about the roster, Bill. I agree with you, okay? Because Jokic is that special. If there's one takeaway from

this whole thing when i watch him i'll go how many times a night do you watch yokich with the basketball or even without the basketball and say what the fuck is he doing the answer's zero yeah when he has a turnover it's shocking you're, oh my God. I can't believe he threw that away. Even Steph is good for like two or three passes a night in a big spot. You're like, what were you thinking there? Or a reach-in foul that doesn't even make any sense. Jokic, at this point, when I watch, I go, I don't know if he made a mistake tonight.

On top of unbelievable passing, like all-time passing, the defensive rebounding, which is somehow left out of the defensive part of it. And I think everybody's seeing, look, you can be bad physically and athletically as a matchup, as a defender, but are you just smart enough to know where to kind of be? Can you just be big at times? I also think Bam could go at him a little bit more, but Bam kind of doesn't Bam could go at him a little bit more but Bam kind of doesn't want to go at him so you know I'm not calling this guy uh you know peak a keen here

but there's a little bit more to it but all the other things were you know it's like oh wait that was a mistake no it wasn't like somebody else was supposed to do something was that a bad shot like how many times do you watch him or you actually think it's a bad shot the only times I could think it's a bad shot is if he turns down an open free throw jumper knowing that he's like, I'm just going to go ahead and put it up on the rim. So this is the rhythm he is in as a player where I'll try to find one where I'm like, oh, did he do that wrong? It almost doesn't happen.

Well, remember that play? It was in the second half of game four. He got a rebound. Miami was coming back. It was one of the times in the second half of game four. He got a rebound. Miami was coming back. It was one of the times when Miami was starting to come back and he got a rebound and threw an outlet. And as he's throwing it, Duncan Robinson's charging for it and just picks it off at mid court. Right.

And comes back in. And it was just a bad Jokic play, but it was shocking because it was like, he never does that. Did he was Robinson blocked? How did he not see that? Uh, it's, it's does that. Did he, was Robinson blocked? How did he not see that? It's crazy to watch when somebody, the last question then was,

well, can you do this on the biggest stage? And then he's like, no, actually, not only am I gonna do it on the biggest stage, I'm actually gonna go up a tiny bit of a level. I'm glad you brought up the Aaron Gordon piece of it. Cause I think Aaron Gordon, you know, there's a real case. In fact, I'm gonna make it right now that what happened with Wiggins last year and what happened there and Gordon this year,

pretty similar, right? I was at that Laker series. It looked like Gordon was kind of going sideways. Like he was afraid to shoot threes. The Lakers left them wide open. And one of the games I went to, they were just like, dude, knock yourself out. We're going to give you those all game. There was a question of, do they play him crunch time? I think they actually benched him for part of the game for crunch time. And then this series, he had that kind of Wiggins leap. But what's cool about it, we have all these dudes that we talk about all the time and they bounce, they're in the lottery, they get drafted, they bounce around.

They're all, they're talented. We know, oh, this guy, they can do this. They can do this. Are they ever going to like kind of put it together? And then sometimes in the playoffs, it happens on the biggest stage. And they like, it happened for Wiggins last year. It was like, oh, he gets it. He's fucking rebounding. Oh, he's posting up. Like this is, he's playing with an intensity I never imagined he would have. Then there's other times where, you know, it's Harrison Barnes in the 2016 finals. It's like, oh, he doesn't get it.

Or, oh, he's, maybe he's not all the way there. I thought what was cool about the Gordon thing, I think there's probably, what, 25, 26 teams. It just never happens for him, right? His good career, makes makes money had dunk contest um he's a very good role player but it never happens and now it feels like like the light bulb went off all these years later for him right and that just doesn't happen that often i don't think but it kind of gets back to the original point of you know how long is denver going to stain this and you know are we looking at the start of like

a real run here and I've seen other pieces and I'm not even being dismissive of it where it's like this is this is proof of like perfect roster construction which is hilarious because we're praising the construction of a GM and Tim Conley that still a year later everybody's like what the hell would that guy do like imagine right you know it's like it's like jordan playing baseball you're going like wait what am i how am i supposed to talk about this dude um and again that's by the way the roster isn't perfectly constructed either like they don't have a backup center um they stumbled into the christian brown thing really in the finals, but they were playing like six guys to beat the Lakers, you know? So that's another thing. I feel like this

roster next year could actually be an even better roster if they keep Bruce Brown. Right. You know, and Brown, they had bailed on. They played him double-digit minutes game one against the Lakers, and then it was like three minutes, eight minutes, and then didn't even play. And then, you know, I think Malone's gotten so frustrated with Michael Porter Jr. in this but you know before we go off into these other areas of what the series is in this Denver team I don't think the Nuggets are I would not make the argument that this is an example of beautiful roster construction around a star I would argue it's a star that always makes the roster construction around you better. And that's why they have a chance.

It's not because of their six to seven guys. It's because of the one and then slash two, because, you know, Murray's had that three that he had in game three, when Miami put together that eight or run, you know, Jokic is got the foul trouble.

Honestly, I couldn't believe how long Malone took to get him back in the game because, one, Jokic is smart enough. It was pretty risky. I thought it was wrong. Nobody's going to care. It'll be forgotten. They won the game. It's not a big deal. I thought it was hilarious in the broadcast because Breen, around seven or something minutes left,

goes, what would you guys do? Breen was leaning towards, you've got to be careful here. Mark Jackson was like, hey, they have the lead, so And Breen was kind of leaning towards, you got to be careful here. Mark Jackson was like, Hey, they have the lead. So who cares? I'm at home going every possession without him is a possession. You've, you've, you've like taken a neon already. Like if he fouls out, then he forces you to miss the remaining possessions. But every possession you're letting them play without him is a decision that you're making as the head coach. And so it felt like Breen, and then specifically Jackson, were totally okay with it.

And Van Gundy, there's a pause, and he goes, I'd get him right back in there right now. I loved it. Because again, I agreed with him. But this is something you're always good on, because I don't know how much you want to talk about a Game 3 Scott Foster freakout. Or Game 4, right? Game 4?

Game 4. Sorry. Game four. Sorry. Game four. I think Jokic is smart enough, and I also don't think that they were going to be in a hurry to get him his fifth foul, considering how bullshit fouls four and five were. Well, this goes back to the original argument of whether Jokic has arrived yet.

I'll tell you, he hasn't arrived from an officiating standpoint because at any point from 2012 to 2018, if LeBron had four fouls, he would not have had that fifth foul called on him. Just period. In a fourth finals game, up 2-1 in a series, it never happens, ever. It doesn't happen with Curry.

It doesn't happen with Kobe. It doesn't happen with Kobe. If we go backwards, I don't think it happens with Duncan. I don't want it to happen to anybody, by the way. If you're the best player in the league, and we all agree you're the best player in the league, you do get treated with a slightly different level of respect.

That's the way the league works, and I like it, and I'm okay with it. Michael Jordan was never like, oh, remember game four of the finals when he got his fifth foul because somebody flopped with 11 minutes left. That conversations never happened because the situation never happened.

So the fact that Jokic was treated like that makes me think like, Oh, he's actually hasn't arrived yet because that was fucking bullshit. Also Scott Foster who, you know, has been in a lot of big games, but he's the only ref who would call that. That was a fucking look at me.

I'm going to do this. He was so ready to call the fifth one. It made me so mad. I was so upset. You can't do this. This is a good game. No. Because there's been a lot of heat on the who showed up to the wedding for nephew Kyle and who didn't.

And we've got Bill tweeting just motherfucking Scott Foster during the wedding ceremony. Fair. Might've had a drink or two, but look, that's a, that's a joke. That's a joke. When it's the best guy in the league, you can't just look for dumb reasons. And also like, I really think if you want to make the league better, let's fix the flopping stuff next season, right? We're, we always, there was Adam Silver's always talks a big game. I want to make the league better. We're gonna do this. We can do that.

Let's fix the flopping stuff now because it's out of control and Miami's great at it and they should be doing it because it works, but you should be able to review it. It should be a technical foul. There should be some penalty because we were saying this for the last couple of years with the fouling on a fast break thing. And we were like, this sucks. We all hate this. And then they fixed it. They got to fix the flopping thing. I hate it. Bam, bam, lurch backwards. Like he was shot, right? Yoko. She's just putting his arm back, but I just hate it. Anyway, it goes back to the point that if you're still getting those kinds of calls,

then you have not arrived as a superstar regardless of what your performance is yeah maybe maybe i mean maybe it's just a bad call too i you know but it was weird there was a really weird stretch there was three calls in a row against denver there was the one on the gordon play yeah on this and i was like what's going on here and then even without that and then they have the lead and i i just was like i would who cares get him back out there because you have to think foster maybe takes a look at it or somebody else talks to him was like that one was that was all bam like he fell for it i think foster had it the baseline too so he saw it from behind so that's where he's seeing bam go back and we've already probably spent too much time on this yeah usually they get revenge the next game they'll get

revenge on that stuff they'll do quick whistle and they'll be like, that's not, that shit's not working this game. Um, quickly on the, you mentioned the Gordon thing and the, basically some, the concept of somebody winning a lottery when they join a team. I do think that should be considered when we're talking about the greatest players ever. Like if you're a magic's team and you knew how to run the floor, you fucking hit the lottery. If you were on bird's team and you knew how to cut and move, you won the lottery. Um, we haven't had a lot of win the lottery guys lately, right? It's it's, it's this 21st century. And that's why I was so interested to hear arenas kind of disparaging Jokic on JJ and Tommy's pod, you know, cause he's like, I just don't, you know, he just doesn't get the style. He's like, he's used to like the Kobe version of how basketball is played, which I think a lot

of people are, but that style is also, you're going to have to fit around what I do. Right. And I think even somebody like LeBron has been guilty to that to some degree. It's like, you're going to take somebody like Kevin Love. It's like, you're gonna have to be a corner three guy for me. And that's what we need for the team. Like it's like you're gonna have to be a corner three guy for me and that's what we need for the team like it's these moving pieces around to fit what he does whereas i i don't see that with with yokage i feel like he could play with any type of player and he would just make it work am i overthinking this you're making a face i i really push back on the lebron thing because as we were talking about i'm, how long is this list?

Not just who can win a title. Because look, there's an argument to be made about Giannis needing to be set up. I think the biggest struggle that I always had with the Embiid-Jokic thing, or maybe I should never have said I had a struggle with it because I don't think deep down I ever believed that Embiid was better than Jokic. And we're not talking about the MVP vote. But it was always, can you take control of a possession and create an opportunity on your own? And Embiid is still somebody that needs to maybe be put in a position. And then once it's on him, it's not like he's going to be like, he's just a different player,

right? So I don't want to, if we're talking about the best single guy doing this in the world, I think Steph is in that group of whenever you go play with him unless you're a lottery pick uh your life should be easier i saw where you did there right i think that i think i think steph needs certain type of guys though i i think steph still needs the bam draymond type of somebody to play off of guy okay but everybody needs like one big guy out there so that's i if we're talking about the list of guys i would push back on lebron that's why i was making the face because sure i get times once he's kind of done with you almost like a tom brady to a receiver thing where you're like this is a good comparison right i'm out you're this guy's done

with me and now i'm shot there's definitely definitely some of that. But if you're good, if you're good, your life is easier with LeBron. Like, I don't want to hear about Chris Bosch's shot attempts being down because they won those games. Like LeBron figure out a way. So I'm with you on, I'm with you on Miami LeBron.

I think that, I think that especially the last couple of years of him, he was very, I used to call him like queen of the chessboard. I don't know this version of LeBron. It's too hard to say. He's been in the league for 20 years. But look, if Jokic had a Westbrook, that's not going to work either.

I mean, the thing I would say that's right about the creation. Who would Westbrook work with? Let's go. Let's go. Let's take that the other way. Westbrook would be like the guy going, if you want me to show up and do a one on zero workout before the draft, I will. they call these other guys turning stuff down that would be a good science experiment could yokage make westbrook work uh maybe off the bench a little energy when he's not

but yeah so i mean there's still some stuff that'd be nice like hey do you have a shot do you have a shot and that's the part where denver deserves a lot of credit for figuring it all out like look as bad as michael porter jr has been in this series he lit it up in the previous three rounds bruce brown not only is a shooter he's a really good cutter he also can survive when things break down to dribble you in and out of something uh the christian brown stuff where he's actually putting it on the floor and driving it's not just cuts one dribble and in or take a shot make a decision like he's handling putting it on the floor and driving. It's not just cuts, one dribble and in, or take a shot and make a decision. He's handling it. And Murray, because he's not as quick and dynamic, maybe,

as some of the really premier point guards we've seen, but that guy gets loose. He gets space for himself on every one of those dribbles. So I still think Jokic, because of his passing like a LeBron, you can't just put him out there with like – he can't play with four Pat Bev's, right? So that's where, again, back to the whole list of it's a lottery ticket to play with these guys. LeBron to me is still on that list of, of what is not even a double digit list of

players. Is that fair? I think you're no, I think you're right. And I think that's fair. I wouldn't have him. He'd be on second team, allba for that list for me because we saw him struggle with certain guys is there anyone else because then this could veer into hey this guy's really good list which is whatnot which is not the purpose of what we're talking about i felt like new jersey kid you could have basically thrown any four guys with them and he could have won 50 games. Like he hit that stretch for two years and maybe the league was a little weaker. Uh, and Nash in the mid 2000, same thing, give him like two shooters and one guy to play defense and one big man who he could do pick and roll. He would, he could have made anything work.

So that it's, it's, I think a tiny bit bigger list than we're giving it credit for, but it's also not a large list. Right? Yeah, it's not a large list because it's not just, hey, this guy is really good, which is always kind of funny about Gilbert Arenas, who I love having on, by the way. Okay? Yeah. But kind of back to some of the original Jokic stuff, he seems to be a bit more protective of the American players. Like, we just had this guy dog and Giannis. I mean,

his timing, I'll give him this. I can't believe he's not on first take more because his timing of dogging the guy who's like at the top of the mountain could be worse. And so I think that probably some people listen to this where, you know, if Jokic pulls this off and the whole thing, it's going to be like,

all right, Giannis is allowed to be, he's not allowed now to be in the conversation with Jokic, which I think is an overreaction and a bit unfair but clearly there's more yokich can do offensively with you as a team but it's i think dismissive of who yannis has become as a passer like i think yannis is actually a really good passer he's just nobody's yokich you know we're talking about like all-time stuff oh so rudy mentions katie i don't i don't know if katie is an elevator like these guys,

but is it a guy that can move into any sort of offense and figure out how to fit in? Yeah, that's what I've always liked about KD and why I had higher hopes for Phoenix is that he's the rare superstar who doesn't disrupt literally everything else you're doing. But honestly, it felt like with he and Booker, it was just two guys trying to survive against a team that's going to win a title. On an outmanned team. You know who we should mention in this conversation is T-Mac. Because that Rockets 22-game winning streak that they had and the pieces that he was playing with, I just felt like you could have thrown anyone with T-Mac at that point of his career, and you could have been a 50-win team.

Let's take a break. Let's not, though. Hold up. Real quick, I want to just hammer your Jason Kidd point here because the previous year with Phoenix, with Kidd for the full season, they went 51-31. Yeah. He's gone.

They go – I think they had 34 wins the nets went from 26 and 56 to 52 and 30 so you're doing something right you're doing i don't want to say chris paul but it's it's it's like that i'm glad you brought up kid because that's the kind of and yes we could talk about like some of the other moving parts, but if you look at two specific franchises, you know, and that trade was a weird trade for a bunch of different reasons, but like to see that kind of jump in wins and then the other team goes in the completely opposite direction, I guess you're doing something right.

Maybe this is a longer list because KG did that for the Celtics in 07-08. Duncan did that his whole career. Elevators. I guess the slate and LeBron, you know, year after year was a guaranteed 50 plus wins. I guess what I was thinking of was just more the concept of a player who was able to change teammates' destinies from where their career should have gone to where it went just because they passed through the guy's life for a few years. You could look at somebody like Michael Cooper. I don't think you're wrong.

Right. Like Michael Cooper, if he's just on Sacramento for... Let's say he's on the Kings for seven years, then he goes over to the, you know, the jazz. We probably don't even remember him, but he's with magic. He's like the perfect guy to put with magic. He can hit threes. He runs the floor. He plays D can guard the best guy on the other team and just fits with magic. Right. I just, I was laughing at the idea. I was like, I didn't think we were going to get to Michael Cooper when we started this, but you're, you, because I'm going to agree with you, this should be a very, very short list. So KG, right, we both understand what he meant, like how he walked in the door.

Yeah, he almost elevates the intensity and the overall something about a team. And maybe he changed the destiny of somebody like Perkins with the off-the-court stuff. But yeah, with the LeBron thing, I guess for me, it's the Kevin Love piece that I But yeah, with the LeBron thing, like I just, I guess for me, it's the Kevin Love piece that I can't shake with the LeBron thing where it's like, that guy was a 25 and 12 and he went on the calves and was just a fucking mess. And it was like, but that

doesn't make sense. Cause I don't feel like if you went on Jokic's team, you would not turn into a mess. Or if you went on Magic's team, it's very rare. Like Maurice Lucas struggled on Magic's team. It's not like he was batting 1,000, but there were guys that weren't like perfect fits with LeBron, with Kobe, with whoever. Anyway, let's take a break. I have more stuff to throw you. It's almost time to crown an NBA champion and FanDuel wants you to be part of the excitement.

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It's on Prime. So I was thinking about Murray's 2023 playoffs and how good he's been. Like I'm messing around with the trade. I think we're going to do some sort of trade value thing next Friday. And I've been messing around with the list. And he was one of the guys that was just higher than i expected um does his playoffs make you rethink the 21 and 22 playoffs at all because you think like when he got hurt they traded for gordon there ain't no um that season was pretty weird we ended up with the suns bucks finals right where as it was

happening we're like this is weird and it was post pandemic um it seemed kind of fitting that it was a weird finals then last year we end up with this really weird celtics warriors finals where the celtics seemed dead a couple times the The Warriors seemed like they were going sideways in the Memphis series, and I don't even think really found themselves until the finals in some ways. There was some weird injury stuff, and Denver was one of the injuries. But now I look back, it's like if that injury doesn't happen, would Denver have gotten one before 23? Because they had most of the pieces.

Now, that undersells how important Bruce Brown and Jeff Green and KCP role players that they didn't totally have but those two playoffs were so weird maybe they get one like what do you think like going backwards in your head yeah because the other part of it being new is that really all we had to look at here were you know the Denver series that was going in the wrong direction right it's a 4-1 loss of western conference finals in the bubble 21 it's sons and four guy and then golden state just runs them off the floor last year but that was a six seed team so uh maybe last year maybe last year and healthy because you know boston wasn't some nasty team last year now right they were good right uh

i don't think golden state i think that story was oh my god these guys did it not oh the inevitable was completed so we're on the same page shocking title a year later like that they hit a couple points in that memphis series where i really i thought like maybe the whole era was going to be over, you know? And then they, uh, they rallied back that, that bubble title or the bubble, that Lakers Nuggets series. I went back. Cause I was like, man, I remember the Lakers. Like they really kind of handled them.

And you go back and look at the players on both sides and it's a completely different Nuggets team. Like Millsap is the Gordon on that team. And he's basically washed at that point, you know? And it was a, it was a pretty young Murray washed at that point, you know, and it was a, it was a pretty young Murray and it was pretty young Yoko. And it was a Lakers team throw in, not just AD, but Dwight Howard's kind of last good moment and LeBron,

they had a ton of size and, and they won four, one, but it was decisive. And they just had better role players, better everything. So a year later, I don't know. Once you add Gordon to that, you've, you basically flip Millsap and Gordon. It is a big difference. So last year, I would tell you healthy, sure, sure. Yeah, that's how I feel too. Yeah, but I still think that you're coming off.

I feel like you're discrediting Phoenix and Milwaukee a little bit because I thought those teams were really good, and Denver might not have been ready. Or maybe I'm still thinking about the year prior where it looked like LA was just at a different level maybe it's the playoff history thing that we both grew up with where you got to go and get your scars and then it kind of felt like it got away from that a little bit so it wasn't like you you know because dude I swear to god guys older than us they're talking about it it's like you know the Pistons had to go through the Celtics. And we're like, dude, we've heard this analogy a thousand times.

It's not a law. But as it pertains to Denver, I also think that there was real defensive stuff against Phoenix and then Golden State with Jokic. And you don't even have to listen to me. It's just stuff of just bullshitting with guys that work for teams where you're like, hey, what do you think of this? What do you think of that? That was always a constant thing with Jokic. It's like if he's your defensive anchor, do they have to try something different?

But I think the cool thing about this team now, and despite, again, Porter Jr. having issues where it doesn't even feel like Malone trusts him anymore and nobody's going to talk about his defense first, as somebody told me 20 years ago when I went to the Portsmouth Invitational Tournament, we are in the height business. We are in the height business.

That is what the NBA is. And in our obsession with small ball stuff that started in like 14 and 15 and how much fun it is and times where you're like, maybe the smart thing was just, hey, do you want the five best basketball players out there? I think that Gordon, Porter Jr., Jokic front line is an example of like just being big at certain spots still can be a massive advantage for things. You could feel it in the Lakers series. Like their size seemed important as that, uh, as that series went along. I, my thing is, you know, Miami and who knows, maybe Miami, obviously not counting at the zombies, they might

go 20 for 34 on threes tomorrow night. And all of a sudden we're going back to Miami for game six. Look, I'm with you. I feel almost feel disrespectful. We're this long into it. Yeah. I just kind of forgot to mention that earlier. Yeah.

Not counting them out until their head is chopped off and not until their head is chopped off and just rolling down the aisle somewhere. But I do think Denver's better. And I think Denver knows it's better. And that was a feeling I got watching to get through what they got through with that Jokic foul trouble thing and still pull that game out. That's the kind of moment where you're like, all right, now let's go home and finish this off. He got the ankle thing. They got the foul trouble thing.

And it still was like, eh. And it still didn't really matter. Right. And the guys that I kept wondering when they were going to come back to Earth, and I thought it would happen in the Boston series, it's now happening. You mean Caleb Martin being 11 for 15 in game seven against Boston and then 11 for 31 in the finals? You're talking about something like that?

Or Max Drews being 5 for 26 from three in the finals like at that example maybe how bad how mad because here's the thing i'm on some threads about this there's some boston threads that i'm on i please continue to leave me off of them but i uh you probably just avoided like you paid up front instead of putting your pain. Denver kills Boston. They fucking, but we said that during the Boston Miami series, right? Denver's going to wax these teams.

And you know, but the going back to the, the Murray thing for a second, I was thinking about kind of the, what if injuries I did a footnote title, I think a title column in like 2012, but just like recent ones. You know, like, let me ask you this.

So let's say Clay gets hurt, God forbid, in March of 2015 before the Warriors win that title, right? And he's just out for the rest of the 2015 playoffs and then the entire 2016 season. We don't get a 2015 title from the Warriors. We don't get the 73 win Warriors. Like the axis of the game tilts a little bit. And it seems extreme,

but I don't think it's an extreme example because Jokic is that good and he's been that good for the last couple of years. And he basically wiped out his second best teammate. There's a couple other ones of these. Kawhi in 21, I think is a really big recent what if injury. Him going down when he did that they might've just had the best team,

you know, and then Phoenix ends up getting by the Clippers next round. Katie in 2019, I just think that flips the title. Sorry, Raptors fans, but I think if Katie's healthy, I just don't think they win the title. KG in 2009. And then the other one that is never mentioned that just gets lost in history because there's no San Antonio media mafia like there is New York media mafia. But Duncan won in 1999 and missed the entire 2000 playoffs. He got hurt in game 70, 80 Torres meniscus, and they didn't even get a chance to defend the title. They lost them round one. And to me, that's a big, what if, because as good as that Lakers team was,

they hadn't done it yet. And that was the, a lot like the old Celtics where it was like, oh my God. And it was just like walking on broken glass to get to where they needed to get to. And they were very beatable and Portland almost beat them. And San Antonio was the defending champ. And I just think that would have been a really hard series. So I think those are the big ones, but then you could go Kyrie 2015, Rose in 2012, Amari in 06, Karl Malone in 04, if you want to go there, and then Dirk in 03. I think we're kind of the big injuries, but I'd never considered Murray to be that big of an injury, but now I do, if that makes sense. So do you agree with that or am I overreacting?

I still don't. I'm looking at it here again now. I mean, he missed, they lost in five and 20. he doesn't play in the playoffs in the portland win right the seven game series that was back and forth and at that point i kind of felt like denver was closer to portland yeah a lot of people a lot of people pick portland i think more people pick portland in that series in 21 uh that's the sun but he's he gets hurt march 21 i think or early april yeah you're right it's like 20 games left in the season, so it's done. He's wiped out. So he doesn't play.

I don't think Denver was good enough to beat Phoenix that year, even with Murray. Now, you want to tell me Murray last year with Jokic? I mean, that was kind of all the reporting of loving Denver that much. If you look at them as a sixth seed that season when I just really didn't think

there was much of an argument about MVP, here are the minutes per game leaders. This is great. It's the three guys, Murray, Jokic, Porter, then it's Will Barton, Gary Harris, Austin Rivers.

Then Aaron Gordon comes over for 25 games. Monty Morris, Compazzo, one of the most annoying fucking players of all time. PJ Dozier, who I know you kind of have an affinity for, 22 minutes a game. I haven't given up. Paul Millsap played 21 minutes a game. Jermichael Green played 20 minutes. Zeke Nagy's coming in there's you go through that team considering all the do the 22 nuggets minutes leaders because that's my favorite oh wait i just did about whether yoka should be the oh yeah wait you

know what you're right it's worse it's worse because I just did the 21 team. No, I know. And 21 wasn't like unbelievable because Murray goes out. No, 22 is way worse. So the 22 is the example I should have used. I'm glad you said that. Will Barton. So Jokic is at 33 and a half minutes a game. Then it's Will Barton at 32. Aaron Gordon at 32.

Monte Morris at 30. Michael Porter Jr. at 30. Jeff Green at 25. Actually, this team's awesome. Austin Rivers. Austin Reeves is a different team. 22. Bones Highland, 19.

Dozier again, 19. Compazzo, 18. Bryn Forbes played 17 minutes a game. They had 22 guys get minutes for them. It was just a scramble. And you were like, this team, look at their offensive numbers, which is kind of where we started the entire podcast. Look at the offensive numbers. I think that of where we started the entire podcast. Look at the offensive numbers.

I think that Denver team, I'll have it here, offensive efficiency, they were still sixth. That was the sixth most efficient offense in the NBA that season. And that's why what we're seeing today is, for those of us that like Jokic, you're like, what are you guys talking about? Do you realize what he's doing and who he's doing

it with? Tough beat for bones Island and his legacy. Well, it's bones. The guy who couldn't play with Jokic. She's like, you know what? I can't cook the way I want to on this team with, with the most skilled playmaking center in 45 years.

I don't know. It's just not working for me guys. Can you send me out of here? Thanks. So Denver being underrated as a potential champ was on my bingo card. How many times in the last 15 years do you think we've had a team win the finals and lose four games or less? Oh, that's not a long list uh eight now the 2017 warriors went 16 and one and we're done wait four what are we talking about so you're not including the sixers no i'm saying i said last 15 years oh last 15 years your a-cast was good for if it was longer

but yeah it was uh 16 and one warriors oh yeah no i would have i don't think yeah i thought you were oh seven spurs oh seven spurs 16 to 4 0 2 and 0 1 lakers 16 and 4 both times and then uh the 99 spurs, 15 and two. That's just pre-MJ or post-MJ history. Then it happened a few more times when we got into the 15 win era. Like the Bulls with Jordan did it four times, 89 Pistons, 87 Lakers, 86 Celts, 85 Lakers.

But 15 wins to do it. But my point is 16 and four in the playoffs, especially with the three-point variance, ain't nothing. And you could say, ah, they played a playing team in the finals. I don't know. I thought the teams they played were pretty good. I think the Lakers, now I'm going to anger the zombies. The zombies are going to put this on their whiteboard. I thought the Lakers were the second best team in the league in the playoffs. And I think it was sweeping them. I don't feel like that series was necessarily a sweep. All those games were good. Like they just kind of out executed them late,

but that series easily could have gone six games. Like it came down to a couple of plays each game. And I think that Lakers team was good. LeBron played well. He just didn't shoot threes that well, but he played well. Like he had a real impact. I felt like Davis was about as good as we've seen him in a playoff series. And Reeves was excellent, you know, and they got like the random Rui games. I thought that team was pretty good. Like for a semi-finals loser, basically. I thought they were on the higher end compared to some of the

teams we've had, like that 2019 Blazers team and shit like that. I thought that was a good team. Really competitive sweep series. It was. Yeah. I don't have a counter to that. I agree with you. But I do think there could be, if I wanted to do this, if I didn't like Denver, if I had a lot of equity

on the Jokic sucks fund and I would go on CNBC and be like denver right like if i had a lot of equity on the yokich sucks fund you know and i would go on cnbc and be like we still like our position oh no i think highways are still the future you're like okay uh you could go all right minnesota stinks you go no i'm just i i'm saying what i would do if i made up shit i went on tv all the time uh you go the lakers weren't really whole they reinvented themselves you know phoenix was new they fired their coach he wasn't very good and then think about who the two seed was it was memphis who was a mess and sacramento was only a three seed because everybody else was a mess and the clippers everybody got hurt and golden state was. You know, you just go on down the list and go.

I would, if somebody said this, hey, the West was really weird this year. That is an accurate statement. I think that's fair. Yeah. Right. But I don't want to say it because it feels dismissive of Denver. And I don't want to be dismissive of Denver. But I thought that road was pretty hard.

Well, think about they were even odds in the Phoenix series. Phoenix was favored and the Booker Durant thing, people were really scared of. And those guys played great in the first four games of that series. You know, I thought the Lakers played really well for a team that's got swept. That was not like, Oh my God, that was an ass kicking. So you're saying the zag would be the Nuggets win on Monday. And then maybe Jay Williams goes in the first take on Tuesday and does the, I don't know who they played. Like, sure, you won the title, but who'd you beat? Did you beat Giannis?

You didn't play Embiid. That'd be a good zag somebody should try that one i think i would just like whatever whatever anybody says about it is that it should be something that's incubated. Fair. To scale. Fair. You could incubate that take to scale, I feel like. Wait, I had this list of resonated versus didn't resonate stars.

The best title guys. See, this is your Tuesday pod. And this is why I think we're awful after a team wins a title it's like did yokich pass bird somebody's got that one queued up right um yokich is fucking amazing he's gonna have to do this for like a bunch more years right there's gonna have to probably be a second title in there for some of the rarefied air that he's gonna be comped to as far as like i'm gonna ask you this. What needs to happen next for Jokic? Like two more titles.

Yeah. You know, like those are the rules. But then, you know, of what? A team that won 53 games this year? You know, like, you know, as a start of the dynasty? Like, that's my dynasty joke after every single championship. Like, I don't know. I could see a bunch of teams in the West.

I do wonder, though. I could see a bunch of teams in the West. I do wonder, though. I could see a bunch of teams in the West. Go ahead. Is Jokic so fun to play with that it becomes a Tom Brady, Peyton Manning thing where guys near the end of their career are like, that guy. All right.

I'll do the one year two million. I'll be your eighth guy. Sounds great. And they end up with two extra guys on their bench. This happens with some of the great teams over the years. We even end up with two extra guys in their bench. Like this happens with some of the great teams over the years where, you know, we even saw with Duncan, people are going to San Antonio to go play with Duncan because they thought it was their best chance to, uh, to win something. And I wonder, could that happen? Right. I wonder if that lower middle class of NBA player,

you know, because we're still in the beginning of the prime Jokic stuff, right? 28. Is there this weird market of, because we talked about the CBA stuff, are you going to have more of these players to select from if you're a contender because the money's gone? There's no middle class. So it's like, cool. Well, I'm, I'm, I'm basically a $2.5 billion guy on 10 possible teams. I might as well go play

with Jokic for a year. Yeah. Um, let's take a break. I'm going to do this resonated thing. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl,

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and Jokic is not on this list yet because it's 3-1 and Miami Heat are zombies. But I was thinking about guys that didn't resonate. And these are the best title guys since 1980. The guys that resonated, right? Where we, people just liked them. The ratings were good for them. They got commercials. People like talking about them. Curry, LeBron, Durant,

Kobe, Wade, Shaq, Jordan, Magic Bird. And then I'm going to let you decide on Dirk. I had him on the list because I think Dirk in 2011 and people liked watching him. And I do feel like Dirk kind of crossed over the foreign player threshold into people were like, I fucking like that guy. But I don't know.

I don't know if he belongs or not. Maybe he's like right on the fringe. Maybe he's waiting outside with Dorman. That ring for him may have been the single most important ring to a player and how he's thought of. This century. But plus he upended the whole decision, the heatles, that whole thing. And kind of America was rooting for him because they just didn't want the heat

to get an easy title, the cough video the cough video turned the tide for him when lebron and wade were coughing in the tunnel pretending they're like oh yokich or yokich dirk is is sick there uh but because dirk that was the other weird thing i don't i forget who it was was a dream on or somebody was like oh all the international players like get a pass it's way harder on the nba guys which again kind of speaks to some of this pushback. And I've always felt it, too. When an international guy kind of gets into it with an American guy, it's like I better – you can't let anybody think that you're not willing to square off with the international guy.

Right. I mean, I think Garnett got a couple dudes to retire. Just like, I hope i get deported so um the dirk it's very easy to look back at it all and say like everybody loved her like i don't know i remember everybody calling some pretty nasty stuff because he was like this pioneer of this newer international generation of like you can't trust an incredible amount of shit right you can't trust those guys they're all kind of soft i mean that was like okay to actually say on the air nobody nobody get upset with you about it but they're you know i i saw a

tweet then just allow me to kind of get there like i saw a tweet that was talking about olympic sports right and it was there was some thing some proposal i don't even remember what the proposal was but it was a writer and it was like the whole concept of rooting for countries is fucking stupid anyway and nationalistic or whatever i was like oh okay here we go i did not follow this writer i know that you're shocked i was like you can't understand just the simple concept of like the high school kid from your town that gets a d1 offer especially when you're from where we're from in the Northeast. And you're like, wait, so-and-so is getting a look. There was a kid who played at my high school that ended up at Holy Cross. And it was the biggest deal ever that a kid from Martha's Vineyard ended up at Holy Cross,

as you understand, Crusaders. So there's a connection to something that feels like it's familiar to you. So, whether that's the kid from high school that gets the D1 offer, or the kid from the town, or the guy that played against your kid that now who, by the way, does not embrace this spotlight at all. Dirk enjoyed it way more than Jokic does. And as much as that feels genuine with Jokic, I hope it is. People will tell you this is exactly how he is. He really doesn't care about a ton of this other stuff. And, you know, we can maybe be too praising of that at times. But when you're winning and it works and then everybody's like, oh, he really, really gets it. He doesn't care about anything.

But he's a guy from Serbia that no one can believe is actually this good. I don't think it's crazy to try to understand that disconnect. That player, will he ever resonate the way somebody else would? I think baseball has this issue with Otani. We're like, what else can this dude do? I'm glad you brought this up. Right. And is it like that kid the Reds brought up the other day?

Oh, De La Cruz? There was two clips. I was like, this is the most amazing guy I've ever seen. I'm all in on that guy. And I don't know. Some people just jump off the computer and the TV and Otani should. Otani is certainly the scariest guy the Red Sox go against every year, but I'm not willing to give up on Otani because I think if he's Dodgers or

Yankees, he becomes a giant thing. I just think he's on the wrong team. And it's not like basketball where you can be on any team and you're okay. I don't know. I don't know if you got to be in there in October. You got to be in playoffs. Like like he's we haven't seen him in the playoffs ever his greatest moment was the world baseball championships you know which nobody cared about and it was great this year it might be more of a baseball issue for him but specific to because you know i think this kind of veers into some topics where we're like, wait, can we talk about this as adults of like what resonates with people? And, you know, some people in the past have gotten in trouble talking about the disconnect from Otani. Yeah. But yet I think you could talk about it with Jokic and I don't think you'd ever get in trouble

talking about it, but I just think it's, like, is Jokic somebody that kids that grow up playing basketball all over this country, are they going to go, I mean, when he plays the game perfectly, as we've already covered, is there still too much of a gap on just being a foreign guy, the accent, not really embracing the spotlight, that he can be the best player in the world, but resonate less than the other ones? Because I people like yannis more than yokich and indeed definitely

mb well so here's the not didn't never totally resonated list assuming yokich wins the finals he's on it i don't think yannis as much as much as people like him i don't think he's on it. I don't think Giannis as much as people like him. I don't think he's there yet from a resonating superstar standpoint. I just don't. Duncan definitely never got there ever. Which again, maybe like Jokic, he preferred. He did not pursue it. All he wanted to do is win titles and be a great teammate and could give a shit about anything else. And now to his detriment, because as the years pass now, it's like, was Carl Malone better than Tim Duncan?

And now, now we're going to enter that whole world of Tim. Did you see that somewhere? Discussion. Did you just make that up to emphasize the analogy or did you actually see that somewhere? I'm sure it'll happen at some point. You can make a statistical argument that Malone was a better player.

You could use like all these advanced stats. I'd still take Bob Pettit. Bob Pettit had some good stats. I think Hakeem was like this. Hakeem was the best player in the league for two years and is one of the 12 best players ever and is the most

underrated superstar we've ever had. Nobody cared. No, you're right about Hakeem. I feel like every year i should just do a documentary like an audio book thing on him for 30 minutes because he is he's the most underrated player in nba history for me akeem what the number two underrated player in nba history is moses malone who was also on this list akeem passed moses for me because i used to protect the moses stuff but after a while i was like okay he passed him right and then the last one was isaiah thomas who people just didn't like because

you know he was the jordan foil and it was the jordan rules and pistons against and everybody loved jordan like even people like celtic fans love jordan like i in college i had jordan posters like that's how much we love jordan and Isaiah was in his way. And people didn't praise Isaiah. They didn't like him. They didn't appreciate what he did. They didn't appreciate the sacrifices he made. They didn't appreciate what a leader he was. And he's on that list for me. I've never agreed with a list more. I'm serious. In order, in order, all three names, at least as far as my NBA watching lifetime, those would be the three most underrated players but so here's that list again for you yokaj isn't on yet he needs one more yannis who now if he only wins one title and we go 20 years from now people be like ah he won the

title after the bubble and they'll start like figuring out ways to undermine wait not even a bubble title a post bubble title yeah it's like that's not fair the nets were the best that was hard that was that was hard that's not saying i'm doing it i'm in on the honest title no i'm not saying i'm doing it i just feel like that's as the years pass people start nitpicking at that one duncan so yannis duncan hakeem moses isaiah and then i Duncan. So Giannis, Duncan, Hakeem, Moses, Isaiah. And then I feel like Kareem kind of has to be adjacent to this list, even though I think everyone agrees Kareem is one of the top four players ever. He's actually somehow underrated. And it's crazy. He's like, he's actually underrated. He is. He had the greatest basketball career of all time until what lebron is doing now um he was one of the great college players ever he had one of the two or three greatest nba careers ever he has most of the records you would care about or as close to them

he has most of he is the most rings of any non-celtic and uh i don't know i feel like but you know he had the goggles wasn't exactly a personable guy what does he got five no he's got six he has six yeah he had five with the lakers and he had uh and he had the one with the bucks yeah i'll admit i because i only watched the end of his career all those years so i was which was when most people started watching basketball right so i've i've underrated him uh until i had to just stop you know when i was younger even when i was on the air i remember being in a pre-show meeting once and the guy was like you know how would you build up your starting five i actually think it was a first take pre-show meeting skip pulled me aside and was like whatever you do out there like i was about to get no but it

was give me about seven or eight minutes and then we'll get to you but we'll probably go to whatever you do out there. Like I was about to get... No, but it was... Give me about seven or eight minutes and then we'll get to you. But we'll probably go to commercial. That's great. You would have thought I was going in to fight a bear that had just lost its entire family. I was like, dude, it's just TV, right?

Like, I'd be fine. Don't worry about it. But there was a pre-show meeting and we were going through like Build Your Starting Five. And I remember one of the producers was like, how can you leave Kareem off? And I was like, I'll just leave him off. Like, what are you high? You know? And he was older. And, uh, I regret that answer. And I regret the accusation that he was high. That was funny. Um, Kareem's on the list. Kareareem was amazing kareem was probably his own worst enemy with this stuff because he didn't exactly play the press game and in the 70s and 80s that

came back to haunt you and it's funny now because he couldn't be more like willing to do he wrote a comic book i think he's totally fascinating yeah i think he's a good writer i love kareem the kareem media media cream and that was great but in the 70s jim murray did a column where he interviewed his back because kareem would never turn around to the reporters like that's that's how unfriendly he was to reporters and it cost him he came on with us years ago man and we got because it was like the lead-up was hey you don't really know what you're gonna get do you want him and i was like yeah it's it's kareem we'll take him we'll take the phoner it's not going to ruin our day right yeah and he came on and he was so good and he didn't know us i mean maybe he probably knew scott because he'd

watched scott but i remember him being like hey man like i had a hard time being tall it was weird and it made me weird and and he was like laughing about it And it's kind of cool, man. I think for guys that are that big of a deal that aren't comfortable with all that kind of attention to get to a peace with themselves and their lives where then they can kind of chuckle about something that may seem so insignificant. But can you imagine him admitting that to us now and then going back and thinking about him as his youngest dude where you're like, you're the player in the world and yet you're sort of like just freaked out because people are looking at you when you go to the bookstore i don't know i just i'll never forget that answer i loved it well he wrote giant steps which a lot of that book was about

his struggle with just standing out you know because especially in the 70s and 80s when uh when you're doing you know they had no charters back then they're flying coach sometimes they're connecting so they're in airports all the time and just think what that guy's life was like hey you play basketball and just like his life fucking if you're over seven feet your life sucked just people pointing at you gawking at you you're like a fucking you know like an oddity to them yeah because the other the other thing, too, is like I like the Sixers first. So my father would just be. He's like every year at Celtics Lakers because you're such a loser.

Like, how are you not allowing yourself to pick a side here? And then you'd have Heinsohn just like openly rooting against Kareem. And when you're a little kid it's really framing the way you think of these dudes it's insane that they let heinzen do national games it's really like actually crazy what's the equivalent of that today is there one i don't think so. Is there? What would it be? It would be like LeVar Ball doing... Charlotte Hornets against somebody else in the finals. Yeah, right.

But it'd have to be TNT. The Hornets are in the finals. LeVar Ball is the second guy in the booth. That's what it was like. For those of you, go back and watch some of the YouTube clips. Isn't there something where... It was one of the Lakers games where they just destroyed Boston? There's so much history in there.

I don't know if it's the Boston Massacre one or what, but Heinsohn, I don't know if this is true or not. It was the game after the Massacre. They killed them. Right, the game after the Massacre, which just spoke to where those teams were at, that you could have this thing that we all think in today's media world, the cycle would have been for two days,

like they're done, they're done, they're done. And that's how good those teams were, that they could mentally get past that, whatever. But I think there's some part of it where Heinsohn, as they're getting destroyed, is like, I can't tell you enough about what kind of respect I have for them battling still. And it was like...

He was like a dad in the high school kids. Yeah, right, right, right. I don't know. Miss him. I have two more quick Nuggets things. There's only been 11 teams since 1983 who won the finals, or 10 teams that won the finals at a margin of victory over eight.

They would be the 11th if they win. The 55% from two point, 37% from three point club. There's only been four, the 22 Warriors, 17 Warriors, 23 Nuggets and 85 Lakers. The Nuggets are 55% on two points, 38.5% on threes. They also shoot 80 plus from a free throw. Only the 23 were 17 words have done that. I'm just bringing this up because I don't think they get enough credit for how awesome of an offensive team they are. I don't think they're thought that way. I don't think they're regarded.

Like when I said two weeks ago to you, I think on this pod that I thought they were the best team I'd seen in person in five years. And definitely a couple of people in my life, you push back a little bit. I had a couple of people in my life were like, whoa, I can't believe you said that about the Nuggets. Like, I don't see that at all. And I'm like, I just know how I felt watching them. I felt like I loved all the decisions they made offensively. They got great shots. They hit threes. I just feel like the thing that they're really good at,

they're better than anything I've seen in the last five years since that 17 Warriors team. I guess it's six years now. The 18 Warriors could get there, but the 17 Warriors were just spectacular. But I don't think they're getting enough credit for what they're doing.

Yeah, and part of it's us. We're bad with new. By the way, I hate doing the bad. I don't think they're getting enough credit for what they're doing yeah and part of it's us we're bad with new anything anytime i hate doing the bet i don't think they're getting enough credit is like one of my least favorite radio podcast segments but i just don't think people think of them in that class is my point sorry i interrupted you no that's fine because but but don't you think it kind of gets back to like how many times have you watched a team that hasn't won and you've gone that is a special, special group. It might be three or four times for me ever in 40 years of watching NBA. It certainly wasn't the case with the 15 Warriors when that happened, right?

And that was basically the start of a little semi-dynasty. But when they won, we weren't like, holy shit, the Warriors. We were like, wow, what would happen if Kyrie had played? We had all these, like Zig would all the MVP or played? We had all these questions coming out of the performance. That MVP thing was stupid then. It's even dumber now. But they also, they kind of, you know, did they rope-a-dope us a bit with that last month?

You know, had they won 60 games? Had they won 60 games and Jokic finishes with the same flurry, even though the numbers, it's like, oh, yeah, you know. the MVP thing, I don't think really matters about how we would have looked at them as a team. But they hadn't had recent playoffs. Their most recent playoff success was a five-game series loss in the bubble, and then Murray misses the next two, so you don't know what to do with them. They were a six-seed two seasons seasons ago they were below 500 on the road this year so if you see it by watching them credit to you but there's a couple things there they were average on defense again this year where i mean do you remember what statistically what phoenix was at last season remember when we finally did the like hey are you guys paying attention to like what phoenix has been doing this year yeah that was a fun week that was a fun week for you i had way more fun that week than that sunday pod where you just had me on after game seven against dallas and listen i did a pod with my 75 year old dad

after fucking they shit the bed in the first minute of game seven i set the bar for everybody else at the ringer that's what what I do. Jokic like. Like if he can do a pod under those circumstances, I can dig deep. I think you still expected that more though than I expected that Phoenix was going to lose game seven at home. Losing by 30 at home? Yeah, in the first 12 minutes. Just go, oh, you guys are just going to like really suck?

Huh? When do you think you'll start talking yourself into Boston? How much more will Tatum's ankle injury be a part of your analysis of what they're capable of for a run for Banner 18 as we get closer to next season? I don't think that team had it. I think last year's still hurts and is getting worse for me because there's an alternate universe where Curry doesn't get hot in that second half in game four.

And a couple of plays go differently. And I still feel like they could have won that series. And Curry's just fantastic. And they didn't have a player as good as him. But I feel like they could have stolen a title. That one bothers me way more. This year's team, the coaching and the, I mean, it was an abomination.

And now look at the moves they made, right? They hired Budenholzer's lead assistant today. They hired Sam Cassell. They're addressing the fact that their coaching staff was abysmal and they're bringing in actual assistant coaches, which raises the question, why didn't they do that last season,

during the season, when they had this chance to win the title? It's a lot of questions. Hey, let's do a retreadables. Today's retreadables is brought to you by SAP. When you have a business,

anything can happen on any given day. Lucky for you, SAP has been there and done that across every industry and every type of business, like a good coach making a key trade to turn the season around. SAP helps your business be ready for whatever comes next. So there's been some Dame stuff floating around,

a lot of smoke signals one way or the other. Some people are saying he's out there trying to recruit free agents or veterans to get traded there. Other people are saying- Oh, to Portland? Good luck. Yeah, other people are saying good luck yeah other people are saying like brooklyn brooklyn miami that he floats that out in a pod who the hell knows but you raised the question um well what does this look like if dame gets traded at this

point in his career and what does this remind us of? And you mentioned the Iverson trade. This is the worst case scenario of what we're paying for Dame. Where you get Iverson, who is a spectacular offensive player. I actually, in the 05 MVP ballot, I think I had him second. I thought he was awesome in the 04 or 05 season.

I had him over Nash, by the way, that year. 06, still putting up big points. And the Celtics are trying0-5 season. I had him over Nash, by the way, that year. 0-6, still putting up big points, and the Celtics are trying to trade for him. A couple teams are. Philly realizes that they got to move on. Let's cash in. And here's the trade, Rosillo. Philly trades him to Denver.

They get Andre Miller, Joe Smith, and two 2017, I'm sorry, 2007 firsts. That became number 21, Daquan Cook, and number 30, Pateri Caponin. I think I'm saying that right. And that was the whole trade. Caponin walked so Markanin could run. That's what they're saying now all these years later. Wasn't a lot.

Andre Miller had a nice little run with the Sixers, I guess, and then ended up getting traded back to Denver. I always loved Andre Miller. Yeah. But for the most part, not a lot. The Celtics, there were rumors like Al Jefferson was on the table and multiple firsts, and they were all in trying to get him. Philly screwed this up.

They could have gotten a much better package from Boston before, but they did not want to trade Iverson to the Boston Celtics. They did not want. There was a moment in time before that draft, before that season started, where I think the Celtics actually thought they were going to get him. I don't know what you believe. No, I agree with that.

I think that's true. If you're going to say... It was going to be Pierce and Iverson, and we'll figure out the rest of it later. Right. It's a very Ainge-type move, to be honest with you, because the team wasn't all that talented. Based on what I was told, when it was all going down,

if you had to place money on one side or the other, the safer money would have been on them getting Iverson. Granted, it did not happen. And what I was told back then, again, jump in, because I don't know how much info you had on as it was happening, but that's when I was still doing the team stuff for, for TV. And it was like,

Billy King's just like, I can't have Iverson in a fucking Celtics Jersey coming into Philadelphia. Like I can't, that's not my quote, but it actually makes a ton of sense. Would have been another winning decision for Billy King. Iverson goes to Denver, has two kind of dueling banjos years with Carmelo that go

nowhere. And then they flip them into Chauncey Billups, uh, before the 08, 09 season, which ends up being the great nugget season of the last 30 years. They get to the conference finals and, um, really went toe to toe with that Laker team. Um, we bring this up because this would be the worst case scenario version of the Dame trade, where you're getting a smaller guy hitting his mid thirties, who's a scorer who can't guard anybody. And it's like, no, it'll be great. He can do this forever. And then Iverson by somewhere in that 09 season, basically flamed out. Like he flamed out on Detroit,

ends up on Memphis. His career's over by 2010. I don't think it's going to go like that for Dan because he can shoot threes. And I think he's probably took care of himself better than Iverson did over the course of his career. I'm going to say he's got a little longer tail maybe than AI, who didn't sleep for 11 years. Um, but there is risk for trading for the, uh, the small guards hitting their early thirties, mid thirties, whatever it's, you know, it's, I don't know what the hall would be if it's Brooklyn. I think bridges has to be in it. And then I don't know why you would do the trade at that point. I'm not doing the trade if, unless I can have Dame and Bridges. You know, if it's Miami, it's like, could you get him for Tyler Hero and Caleb Barton and, you know, four first rounders?

Like, yeah, maybe. I don't know. I don't know what that does for Portland. I don't know what the point of that is. So my guess is he stays. I don't, I can't figure out the trade for him. I can't either. I really can't.

Cause I think in the past we would always go well there's going to be a team that just is bored right a team that's bored that needs to add some juice to it which is a lot like the iverson transaction like minnesota a year ago you mean uh yeah but gobert is not an icon you know lillard is an iverson status but he's still kind of an icon of his generation so if you you look at the Sarver-Shack deal, that was about just, we got Shaq. That was a money save. Yeah, and they saved money on that one too. Remember, they threw Marcus Banks in it.

They were able to cut some luxury tax out of it. It was weirdly a big deal and a financial deal. Right, but at that point, you kind of like i i think this might have run its course and it didn't really fit for everything else that they were doing but i'll never forget seeing sarver like courtside that first game where it was like you know we did so because i don't think owners can ever really help themselves of going like wait i can have alan iverson or i can i can because when you go back and look at the Iverson part of it, it was already trending in the wrong direction at 30 years old.

He falls off a cliff. It's like over. It is over towards the end of that. The Detroit thing, nothing happens. And then it's ceremonious kind of Philadelphia stop on the way out. But like the true shooting percentage stuff is, I mean, he was never the most efficient guy. The metrics are never going to tell you the full Iverson story, but the metrics during the downside of his career,

like my God. And that's who Denver was trading for at that point. Even if he was going to get his shots or excuse me, he was going to get his points because he was still, no matter what, at that stage of his career, he was going to get his shots. But it was like, what is that really doing for you as a team? Lillard to your point is in better shape. Um, I think it's wired, obviously differently. I don't know that anybody's really wired like Iverson. And he's really, really good. But I would say no thanks. I'd say no thanks because I'd go, wait,

I don't know that I'm getting somebody that really changed. Like, we may sell more jerseys. We may be more fun. He's going to have a 50-point night every now and then. But how come they never did anything? Like, if he's that good, how come they never ever did anything except for what I like to call kind of the fluky conference finals appearances that are nice accomplishments but don't really define who you are as a team?

And that's what there was. Like, that Golden State team that they went up against, it almost looked like they were trying to lose one of those games because they're like, all right, we're not going to go. And they're like, wait, these guys, I guess we'll just win this one tonight too. Yeah. No, I'm with you. Do you have one?

Because is there that team that's bored that goes, we always try to dump Westbrook on the magic for all those years. And it's like, no, Westbrook's going to screw up what we're doing here. Lillard's not that. But does Houston go, if they strike out on Harden, go, hey, let's just do something. The timeline doesn't match up with some of the people that

would have the right kinds of trades for him is part of the problem. Orlando doesn't make sense. You get in that, but the other guys aren't ready yet, but they have the assets that they could try to get for him. Atlanta's the only one that jumps out to me as an obvious one. If it was just a Trey Dame, a little version of like the kid Marbury type of, you're just flipping teams. You're putting Dame in a situation

that gives him like a real chance to win the title, put him in a fun city. Portland gets to kind of rebuild around Trey. But even that doesn't make sense to me because I don't know why Portland would, you know, want to take scoot and have Trey. Like to me, if they're going to trade Dame, scoot's got to be part of this moving scoot into the Dame spot. So I need size if I'm getting, you know, stuff back from Dame, which is why the bridges thing

is interesting, but the Nets don't want to trade bridges. So, um, listen, uh, we'll have plenty of time to talk about Dame trades over the next 10 days. Today's Retradables is brought to you by SAP. Much like sports, the world of business can be unpredictable. One day things are going smoothly and suddenly they take a turn. The good news is like an experienced coaching staff, SAP has seen it all across every industry

and every type of business. They'll help you sort out what's happening, what's come. So you can be ready for anything that happens next. All right, speaking of Dame. So we had so much fun doing the worst GM draft last week that we created another draft that we haven't come up with the perfect title yet, but it's something like,

I'm just not going to be surprised if you're on another team in two months. That's the draft. I can't believe it's not Lillard draft. That's fine. Basically the last couple of years. And I remember if you go back a year ago, we're still,

and I are talking about the nets and both of us had spidey senses with them. Like, you know what? Just wouldn't be shocked if shit started going down with that team, but we, we, there was no smoke signals. There was no KD trade request, nothing. But it was almost, we were like hunters in the wilderness where it was like, I smell

bear feces down that way. Let's go left. Because I'm just catching a whiff of the bear feces if we go right. Let's go left. Did you watch some sort of outdoors movie on the flight? Might have. Might have watched Blood Diamond. No, I might have watched Blood Diamond.

Chris Ryan and I might be doing Blood Diamond for the rewatchable soon. And I was watching Leo in that one. Is Blood Diamond good? Blood Diamond's amazing. I've watched it. Trust me. It's Leo.

No, watch it. Blood Diamond's great. I gotta watch it again. Yeah, so Leo's Leo. No, watch it. What? Diamond's great. I got to watch it. So Leo's character, that movie could smell the, you know, kind of smell the different scents. So you and I can smell the sense of the summer in the NBA.

And, uh, I'll give you first pick. No, no, no. I want a counterpunch. Cause I always get first pick.

Okay. I'll go first then. Great. My first pick is i'll go first then great my first pick is bradley beal i think winger is going to go into this wizard's job and he's already had some interesting quotes i don't think he wants to go 38 and 44 or 41 and 41 or 42 and 40 or 39 and 43 for the next five years. I think he wants a real plan and it feels a little blow it up to me. And I think that's actually what they should do. They have the seventh pick.

They have some assets. I don't, if your big three is Porzingis and Beal and Kyle Kuzma, I hate to break it to you, but there's not going to be a lot of long post-season runs in your future. And I think Bradley Beal, even though he has a no trade clause, is going to be traded this summer. Man, it sounds like somebody's been doing some chatting on the phone. That's a great pick.

Oh, you like that pick? Was he on your board? He was my first pick. I was going to take the first pick. Oh, there you you go okay all right so what do you have anything to add i just think with the overhaul everything it might be time you know maybe before it's another year you know he doesn't play a ton he's getting older uh you know the problem with the wizards as we said throughout it is they're paying a money to guys that are kind of b b minuses they have a massive decision of prasingas that contract would scare the hell out of me you could say hey let them walk

but then you always worry about the asset uh i would i would hope they would try to re you can't just go like hey we don't like any of our guys this team hasn't been very good like a lot of times the problem with the job is you end up signing guys you don't even want but it starts with beal the beal move is the first piece to this and now that it feels like they finally kind of they're trying to turn the page even if some of the some of the guys back will feel like hey wait this isn't a completely revamped roster I just really like the pick I like the pick but it was always up to Beal and it always felt like and for years we were right about this in that every time he was like the next guy, the next guy, the next guy, we were consistently

saying like, I think he wants the five-year deal first and then he'll start calling his shots. And this might be like a collaborative thing. Man, we almost could have led the pod with this because now there's two directions we could go with Beal. Close to Jason Tatum. It's the Beal J Jalen Brown rumor has always been the rumor, but I don't know why you would trade Jalen Brown because the new CBA is good. I wouldn't trade Jalen for Beal. I wouldn't. Oh,

I wouldn't either. But I'm saying with the second apron now, it's like the whole reason if you're going to trade Jalen Brown or because you don't want to have two super expensive guys. So then you can't trade him for Bradley Beal. Counter to my point that I just made, you got to be in the keep my superstar happy business. It's the number one business to be in these days if you're an NBA owner. Tatum loves Beal and maybe that's the reason you do it.

I don't think they will, but that's the only reason in a million years, I would think it would make sense to do a trade with Jalen Brown and Bradley Beal. Now, if Washington offered them number seven and Bradley Beal for Brown and Rob Williams. Ishmith Sprinkles. Maybe he'd make some stuff work. I don't know. I wouldn't do it, but I just don't think the, hey, we have to make sure Tatum is happy at all times thing

can be ruled out. But my guess, my bet, the odds on favorite, I would put the minus 200 would be Philadelphia. By the way, I'm aware Ishmith is not on the team. He just feels like he's on the Wizards. Yeah, I know. I like the joke. Ishmith's always good for those sprinkle jokes.

Yeah. My odds on favorite is Philadelphia, and I don't even think it's close. Beal, Beal and Embiid, they're friends. Embiid was trying to get him two years ago, which I kept telling people on this podcast, they ended up going with Harden instead.

Embiid was pushing hard for Beal. Harden's going to leave. There's a lot of ways to get going. If you're Washington, um, and you and I have, we've had some, uh, off podcast arguments about what Beal's value actually is, but for the money that he's making,

where it goes into the fifties pretty quickly. Um, I just don't, I don't think that's an asset in the second apron NBA. I don't see it, but if you're Philly and you're going to lose Harden and now I have the shooter, that's probably a better fit with him beat anyway. And I have Tobias Harris and his expiring contract. There's a couple future draft picks. I could probably throw that. I can probably find in my, in my pocket somewhere. And if you're Washington, it's like, you know what? We got out of the bill contract. We have Harris as an expiring and, uh, and we're rebooting everything. Well, if you were just, and we're all doing hypotheticals here, even though I would agree that the Beal thing, especially if Beal were to say like, okay, maybe it has run its course

new guys in here and the whole deal. Um, but it has to go somewhere that he wants to go because he has the hammer. Well, does he though? He, I mean, in the old trade clause, He could just say, no. No, thanks. Hey, we traded you to Portland. Yeah, it's like, we traded you to Portland. Good news. He's like, no, you actually didn't.

I vote no. I'm not going to Portland. No, thank you. Right. Because I was thinking about the extension, but you're right. So a guy like Beal, though, you shouldn't have to give up an all-NBA player for him. Not at the price is that that's that's not the way these transactions work so that's why i think to keep tatum happy and then

it's like okay so what you did this is all hypothetical which we're not even saying is going to happen is you decided instead of like hey here's the one young guy and some salary filler and some picks with different swaps and different protections on the whole thing no here's a guy in his prime that just made all NBA. You don't do that. You don't do that. So that's why that's a non-starter. As far as the Philly part of it, like, look, not breaking news.

Not exactly the biggest Harden guy. But at least Harden gets into the playoffs. Bill can't even get his team in to anything. I think one of the worst – I was talking with somebody about this the other night, I think one of the worst playoff series as far as talent, oh, it's off of the Miami stuff again, back to when's the last time you saw teams that were just less talented?

That Isaiah Thomas Celtics team that beat the Wizards in the second round six years ago, that was the first sign of what's wrong with these guys? But Wall was still there, Morris was still there and they, they talk shit to everybody and whatever. And then I feel like everybody kind of became team Beal because wall was hurt. Wall was like, and Beal was good in that game seven. I remember he was, he was, but you know, if you're, if you're worth this kind of thing and it kind of gets back to your second apron deal is maybe even just two years ago, you

go, all right, this contract sucks, whatever, not a big deal. But now you're going, wait, I don't know that we can have, and even Lillard kind of falls into this. Can you have this kind of transaction with dudes who owed $60 million in three years with this new apron design? Let me give you the bill numbers. Right now it's 43.2. Next season, 46.7. Jumps up to 50.2. 53.66 in the 2025-26 season. Player option for 57.1. So he has- Probably pick that one up. It's one of my favorite Rosillo jokes. He's got like $205 million remaining after we get through. So right now, if you trade him before July 1st, he's at 43.2. And Harris fits, like Harris makes 40 and there's a way to make that work. And Washington would just be basically cutting bait. Maybe they could reroute Harris, buy him out, whatever. The other way to do it is if Harden ends up going to Houston and you try to figure out some sort of goofy sign-in trade with them, where you can get the entire salary cap exception

from trading Harden out, then you could just trade for Beal and keep Harris. So let's say they say to Houston, oh, you're gonna take him anyway? Well, what if you do this? Start his contract at 47 million. We'll give you like a second round pick in 2029. We'll trade him to you in your cap space. And then we get this trade exception.

We can just move Beal into it and keep Harris. So my point is Philly's the pickilly's philly's the pick who do you have with your first pick i'm just gonna add one little line to it as much as i don't like harden even i don't think he would pull a move well i shouldn't say that but it's one of the all-time loser moves if he leaves philadelphia as a you know whatever you think of them as a contender to be like i'll just take houston's cap space like even i don't know that he would do that because the money's the same. The money's basically the same. Does he care though? I don't, I'm not, I'm just not sure that some of these guys care that much. He's like, you know what? I I've made an absolute

shitload of money. If you're hard and you'd be like, I've made $400 billion playing basketball or three 50 or 300, whatever the final number is. You know, I had a great career. I'm going to the Hall of Fame. I won an MVP. Like, I really like living in Houston. I'm good. Maybe we'll be good in two years,

and we can win the title two years from now. But I love it here. I want it to happen so bad. It would be a very telling exclamation point in his legacy. I want it to happen so bad. But I mean, they could sell him on eBay. They could say like, you're the first of many moves. We're going to be good right away.

We're going to be competitive. You could say he doesn't care. He doesn't care. And certainly like, you know, the way I would say most people finally come around on it, where you would go. I mean, the only people that were fighting the reality of who he is in the playoffs were the people that were emotionally invested in that team having a good outcome yeah right nobody wanted to admit it if you were still rooting for him the entire time but

i still think most players would be like dude we have we still have a chance right boston's all dinged up who knows what's going to happen with them milwaukee's kind of in this weird phase of like the beginning of phase two you know miami's not coming in next year as a favorite brooklyn's kind of a mess like it's a great point the east is wide open right so if you're daryl morey pitching this to harden which i don't think daryl gives a shit about the back end years of anything because his history shows he doesn't care he'll just be like whatever i'll figure out labor i've granted the pj tucker 40 year old gm empowerment era but to go like hey just give me one more we'll give you every last dollar we can give you okay and yeah and the way it works on the over 38 rule like they could offer him five but

the money has to fit in the first four like they could offer him five but the money has to fit in the first four so that's why it's the same money so they actually don't have the advantage they normally have i think everybody understands this has been over it then you factor in the state taxes that it's kind of from what i've looked at as a wash but you'd still think like hey i picked you up at the jet man i tweeted about how good you were for like six years. Yeah. I'm literally carrying your legacy on my back. I wrote a dossier to fucking the NBA to save your legacy in 2018. Like, this is, I've had your back. Like, can you give me one more year and then I'll trade you to Houston if you want to.

What if Embiid doesn't want to play with him though? Okay, but who do you want to, like, you want to play with Beal? Back to Bradley you want to like you want to play with the bill yeah and maxi gets more it's basically here's our big three and b b on maxi brought in this guy with all this playoff success his name's bradley biel all right my first pick was bradley biel what's your first pick the head of zion's pr team be a different team next year fair so you think zion's traded no i don't i don't think he's traded uh i think a guy having a ton of sex is not really going to ruin his trade value all that much if you were playing and playing well this would be treated a little differently but i'd say at this point now after this entire week i actually feel bad for him. So there's my Zion commentary. I've been there a couple months ago.

What, accused of having sex with a ton of people? No, I feel bad for him. Oh. I think he's in the wrong city, and I don't know. The Jha thing too, I think these guys in their early 20s that, I don't know, man. Clearly, they have nobody in their lives who could be like yo no the problem for zion is the guys in his lives are also doing this with him most likely

and they're like this is sick this is awesome this is great like uh okay all right i'm gonna go ahead and uh this isn't this isn't one of the headliners. I'm going to go John Collins. He's finally out. John Collins did not have that on my board. You think this is it? They finally trade him after two years? Could his agent just call and go, hey, guys?

He's just on the FaceTime shrugging, being like, you've been trying to trade my guy forever. He's like the new Miles Turner. So I was trying to think of certainty, of certainty. And I'm not even certain. It's not based on any information. It just, there has to be a couple moving parts in Atlanta here. I like it.

My next pick, I'm just going to go Dame Lillard. Because he just needs to go in the top three. Good value. Probably could have gone first. I, if scoot, was it going to be sitting there at number three? I wouldn't even consider this,

but I just think if, I don't know. I don't know exactly who owns Portland these days. There's always been weird rumors about that. They're not available for whatever reason, even though like Phil Knight's been trying to buy them and all this stuff. But I just don't know how you take Scoot Henderson and then keep Dame.

That makes no sense to me. And I also don't think it does make any sense to trade Scoot Henderson. It makes way more sense to trade Dame than it does to trade Scoot Henderson. So Dame would be my pick. There's another version of this where he goes number one, honestly.

So I probably would have taken him with this pick now, despite us trying to have any conversation about where he actually fits and us not really coming to any kind of conclusion on it. I'll see your Dame and I'll go Grant Williams. Great. So you really opened it up to the non-stars. Grant Williams doesn't even count. He's definitely going to be on another team next year. What are you talking about? All right. He's going to be in the Celtics next year.

I'm vetoing that one. We're doing stars. But Grant Williams is 100% not going to be in the Celtics next year. So basically it's, hey, let's be wrong on eight of these. Okay. All right. All right. I thought we were doing stars.

I didn't realize. I'll take Bruce Brown then. All right. Back to you. Josh, our op's out. realize well i'll take bruce brown then all right back to you josh our ops out so you wanted us to come up with 10 stars that we think are likely to be stars are close no not likely but all right well just i wouldn't be surprised in august if this guy was on another team all right despite me disagreeing with the timing of the report from chris haynes because

i don't know how you could know that chris paul waived on June 7th when they had three weeks from that date to figure out the trade market for Aiton, the trade market for Chris Paul. Do they want to keep him at $30 million? Do they want to waive him, not stretch him, re-sign him? If they do stretch him, then it opens up some more cap space. There are moves that exist that you cannot assume you know. So I think what happens is Paul meets with Phoenix on Wednesday. Wave is brought up as an option. Chris Haynes probably talked to Chris Paul. I don't believe guys make stuff up. I don't think Chris paints, but I just, it'd be like me guessing the lottery numbers one week. And then the next week I was like, I told you, you're like, you may have gotten it right. There's no way you actually knew what the lottery numbers were. So Chris Haynes could still be right about this, like I told you, you may have gotten it right. There's no way you actually knew what the lottery numbers were. So Chris Haynes could still be right about this.

But I think value for somebody who's at least name recognition, because Chris Paul is not a star anymore. I'll take him. No, Chris Paul is name. Name recognition is a good way to frame this. And it's a great pick. The reason I was so stunned when Haynes tweeted that was because I didn't understand why they were making the decision now when you never know if there's a team that wants to give you an asset because

they want to acquire Chris Paul so that it can waive them for 16 million and get off the cap and get off some asset that's a $32 million asset, get Chris Paul and then waive them. So it didn't add up to me. Like Dallas could be like, we'll trade you Kyrie Irving, sign and trade. We'll take Chris Paul back and then we'll keep him. We can wave him. We can flip him to a third team. I just, there's too many options for him with that contract. So we agree.

I guess I got to cross Christian Wood off my board. I can't wait to know how many, i'd love to know what your 10 stars were because this is hard you're gonna be jealous of this pick too carl anthony towns all right all right based on this like the likelihood of it you're right he should have gone higher yeah he should have gone higher but i would imagine they're gonna try this one more time with everybody healthy and see what it looks like that would be insane to be like let's run it back

we didn't see enough not a big enough sample size of Gobertowns and Anthony Edwards plus we have to pay some point guard I just find it hard to believe he's going to be

on the team next year but maybe I'm nuts you're up I mean somebody's got to take Jalen at some point. Yeah. I'm going to wait. Okay.

I'll go. Jared Allen. What a great pick. Really nice. I like it. Cleveland's got to be a little scared here. Cause the, the Mitchell window is already almost over.

Right. Right. Right? And everything that could have got, like, there is such a great story, the number one defense in the league. That Knicks series has to be in their heads. We're like, what the, what was that? What just happened to our dudes?

Remember that third quarter stretch with Darius Garland? How come that only happened like one time? They even worse coached in the celtics in the playoffs and i'll tell you this i don't know if you've thought about this before but why did they wave kevin love guys i'm playing in the finals right now here's other calves i want to get kevin love on so bad but i almost want to get him on so you can talk to him. Like, you can have him on. I just want to be like,

what happened, man? How were the Cavs not playing you 25 minutes a game when they had no backup bigs? The request has been in because I want to talk about the Miami run. I want to talk about his cologne

back in Minnesota. Numbers, which is still available, I think, at Dillards.com. But if we get him, I may tell Allison, let Bill have him. He deserves. No, I think, at Dillards.com. But if we get him, I may tell Allison, let Bill have him. He deserves. No, I think we do it together. I think we tag team him.

By the way, congrats. You just had a kid. I'm going to stay in the Cavs since you opened the door. I'm going to go Darius Garland. No way. That's the worst pick of the entire thing so far. Listen, I have to have him taking flyers. Why would they do that?

What if somebody awesome is available? What do you mean? Like an awesome, young, potentially third-team all-NBA point guard that shows that he can be a really good teammate and can shoot and pass? What if Jalen Brown and Donovan Mitchell start texting each other about how much they like, how much fun it would be to play with each other?

I don't know. This is a... Cleveland, to me, I'm with you. I thought the Jared Allen pick was good. The only two people I know are going to be on that team are Mobley and Mitchell. I also could have taken Mitchell in that spot. I would trade Jalen Brown and his niece, Miss Shoes,

for Darius Garland in two seconds. I would trade Jalen Brown and his niece, Miss shoes for Darius Garland in two seconds. I would too. We, we, we are both aligned on, on young Darius. I'm still not a hundred. This segment's way more fun than me going.

Did you take it? Berton, Grant Williams and Bert, that's, uh, well, let me ask you this. Are you sold on Garland and donovan mitchell as the foundation with

mobile as the as that's your three going forward and we're going to win a title someday with these guys if you're asking me if they're going to win a title the answer is more likely no than it is yes it's one in 30 ads right you've got me uh i think what was alarming was that alan mobley pairing which was so good in the regular season defensively because those guys are that good defensively, that then you become exposed because you have two non-offensive players on the floor come up with an answer for that they felt good about so at times when you watch the calves offense and then when you take out one of the guards you're like is mobley even somebody who initiates his own offense certainly not a playoff level right alan allen's still a little reluctant for me even though i'd love to have him i think he's fallen off to me it's not a big four like you and i are aligned.

I would trade Mitchell before I traded Garland. But if they traded Garland for some awesome small forward or somebody who fit better on paper than Mitchell, I wouldn't be stunned. All right, you're up. By the way, I think that might be the one that makes the most sense is give the ball back to Mitchell Utah days I mean that's kind of what I love so much about what I saw from Cleveland this year is that Mitchell and you know despite what the playoffs were do we realize what this guy did in some of these games

this season like he was insane he was like in the MVP conversation the beginning of the year so um that that playoff thing shook me to my core, and I didn't work for the team. But the Mitchell, Brown, Mobley, Allen thing, did you just stumble on something amazing that you also would like, and it actually wasn't from a Homer-based deal? Wow. I kind of like what you just did there, Bill.

There are two Darius Garland teams I was thinking about. Just because of the guys who are available the other would be siakam and by the way i would not trade garland for siakam either and i wouldn't trade for jalen brown straight up i wouldn't do either i you and i value garland the most we we're going to be right on garland down the road people are going to be like oh yeah simmons and rossillo not that it's like he's one of the best young assets i think people i just i think people i'm all in no but i'm all in on him as like i think think he can be that guy. I think he can at least be Murray next to Jokic on the right team. And that person should be Mobley. I would not trade him. You're up. Okay. Nobody's taken Harden

yet. Yeah, you can do it. I felt like it was cheating. Well, maybe, maybe you're right though. Maybe he could stay. It's fair. Take him. So wait, today, gun to your head, which is aggressive. You would say he goes to Houston. Yes. Everybody seems to be saying the same thing.

I can't believe I'm the guy being like, would he even do that? Would he even do that? I'll take him. I'll take him eighth. That's lower than I think people had in the mocks like what's wrong with that guy did you see i'm gonna take a flyer on the milliball yeah i'm just craps table like i'm just betting i'm betting on the two ones for the next role where it's like oh give me two ones give me two sixes i stole this this whole charlotte picking two and portland picking three

if you love scoot and you and i both love scoot if charlotte spends real time with scoot and they're like holy by the way they should just keep scooting lamello i just i don't know i had him i had him written down and i'm just gonna mention him you go all right so you had a scoop i don't think they do that i think he's he's still new enough and it's been fun enough despite the injuries there's been no expectations on the team to win i think he is such a big deal to young people and even though he doesn't really get like you wouldn't go oh man he's one of the true stars in this league his his playing style and his notoriety coming in i think that's really important for that franchise it's it's like trey young but not as good of a player how about are you laughing i just like

that you were trying to do it orlando says hey faults 6 11, and Unprotected first next year for LaMelo. Let's go. Let's dance. Fultz is good now. Cerruti, would you do that? I love it. I love it when we go back. Cerruti's like an arbiter. I just gave Cerruti

a big three. He's got LaMelo, Palo, and Franz Wagner. I'm going to lay out out I love when you do this I get accused of turning down every trade proposal that you offer up to me for the magic and people think I'm just like you know my expectations are too high I'm just not that LaMelo doesn't move the needle for me man I don't I just can I just I just want to know every one of them i just want to see i just want to see a couple years of france and follow figure it out games last year you know they won back-to-back titles they could they could break the 73 win record i just don't want to break up the score he's like

the yankees talking about trading bernie williams in 2000 he's like wow we've won three world series with them can i just see those guys for two i just want to see him for a couple years can we trading Bernie Williams in 2000. He's like, wow, we've won three World Series with him. Can I just see those guys for two? I just want to see them for a couple years. Can we just see what they are first before we start making this complicated? I don't know. So, Rudy, do you think if you worked with two different podcasters,

you would feel differently about LaMelo? But you watch. You're a League Pass guy, so you watch. You don't need us to shape it. I mean, LaMelo stuff isn't promising. Yeah, it's not. It doesn't look great. I wouldn't, you know. why are you taking that risk he has had dumb injuries i i will say like i'm not ready to say like he's not durable because i think he's had dopey injuries not like the you know where lonzo there's something clearly wrong

yeah you're right there they've been unlucky although which is like unlucky injuries he's an unlucky injury guy. I'm upset that Cerruti was away during worst take because he was our compass for worst take on my pod. But Rick Kamla, who I know is your boy, blamed- I don't even know Rick Kamla. Oh, no, wait. You're a Termini and Johnson guy. Termini's my guy.

Right, right. And Eddie Johnson's my hero. But Kamla from NBA Radio. Maybe I'm more Kamla AD. I don't want to, you know, I don't know. Okay, fair. termini's my guy right right and and eddie johnson's my hero but camela from nba radio maybe i'm more camela ad i don't want to you know i don't know okay fair all right i think i listen to those guys more just because of the time of the day that i'm in the car which i think i put 8 000 miles on in two years somebody doesn't drive a lot uh somebody doesn't do a ton camela blamed the guy in the courtside seats for lamello's injury when he dove in he said he needs to do a better job it was one of the all-time takes what it was so good that's why like i'm

not doing this to make fun of cam because i've known him a really long time you read it the first time and you went did somebody come up with that like that's what i love about the human race is that you'd be like well no one would think would think that. And you're like, yeah, there is. A couple dudes were like, be better. People agreed. So they are unlucky injuries. I heard Camo once talking about Embiid, whether he was going to play or not. And he said about facing the pressure. And he said how he wakes up every day knowing he has to do a show they did

he wants that pressure and he thrives in that pressure and it was awesome i was like fucking rick gamba i get it man there's a hidden pressure with getting that show ready every day i feel it i felt it today planning out the show seriously hey look on us we want to have good topics i can't say shit because i too many times already in my career, I've been like, you know, I don't know what this guy's looking for in free agency. I remember the first time I sat down with Mo Davenport to talk about my days count, year three at ESPN, right?

So I'm just as guilty of it. All right, so we're going to wrap up the draft. Suri, stay on because we're going to do Nephew Corner and recap Kyle's wedding. I still have another pick. Well, apologies. I had the guys still on my board.

Trey young, Joel and bead, Kawhi Leonard, Paul George, and, uh, McHale bridges. No,

those are all guys that I wouldn't be like, it wouldn't absolutely stun me if those guys weren't on their same teams in two months. I think Deshaun, I think Deshaunounte Murray just throw his name in the mix too. Oh, I like that one. Okay. All right. Take a break.

Life and death were two very realistic coexisting possibilities in my life. I didn't even think I'd make it to like my 16th birthday, to be honest. I grew up being scared of who I was. Any one of us at any time can be affected by mental health and addictions. Just taking that first step makes a big difference. It's the hardest step. But CAMH was there from the beginning. Everyone deserves better mental health care.

To hear more stories of recovery, visit cam sets an example. Yeah, an example for me. Because safety is learned. It's learned. Okay, give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks.

All right, so Rudy stayed with us. So I flew back to New York to see our beloved guy, nephew Kyle, aka Kyle Creighton. Private? No. Got married to his longtime girlfriend, Alana. This was a relationship that I would say, much like the Nuggets, has really come together over the last couple of years. I'm actually proud of them. They met each other at other different time in both of their lives. Little rocky to begin with, not gonna lie. Didn't have incredibly high hopes for the long haul.

Was this your speech? No, I didn't give a speech. And they really settled in. They're really good together. Like I'm actually in, I'm buying stock in the marriage. I think Kyle was great seeing him him super happy, surrounded by fam, he hugged somebody somewhere between the entree and the dessert and broke a glass and there were shattered glass around his, around his chair. Um, he might've had snuck out for a couple of heaters during the wedding,

but for the most part of it, it was a very mature Kyle. So I'm here to answer your questions, whatever your questions are for the wedding weekend. Well, there was a lot of stuff on our end about a potential fight between the Poughkeepsie guys and the New York city guys. Was there any tension in the air that you were able to notice? So we packed it in from the wedding, I would say nine, nine 30 range.

And there was a couple of bars and I think there might've been an altercation later in the night. They, some described it as a borderline brawl at one of the bars. Kyle not involved. Kyle was gone by then, but I think the gloves were dropped at one of the bars kyle not involved kyle was gone by then but i think uh the gloves were dropped at one point around two o'clock new york doesn't close early so that happened and then um a couple of his friends stole the maintenance car um that was i actually i don't

know they were friends somebody took the car car. Somebody stole the car. At the place they were getting married. Like those little golf carts were the maintenance thing. And was just driving that around at night screaming. That was really fun. I like that. That's actually cool. Yeah. That's supposed to happen.

But pretty mellow for the most part. A lot of love in the air. A lot of emotion, Saruti. What was Kyle's, what was his vibe? Was he nervous? Was he, you know, because he's kind of talked about it. He was very self-aware. Like he didn't want to get, he didn't want to be the one of those guys that was hammered

at his own wedding. And I respect that because like a lot of guys, they just get nervous. People keep handing them shots and it just like, it's not even their fault. It just happens really quickly. So it's not their fault. It's not their fault. Yeah. Come on.

You got to know you got to be better. That's what you're party. I kept people getting all of a sudden I was done. I was on my way home two and a half hours. So he held it together. Was he emotional? It was like, cause Kyle doesn't really get that emotional. So I was interesting. Was he, is he a cry guy? Is he a, did he get a little emotional during like the, I do part? What happened? I could see. Great question. Um, well, here's what Kyle did. I think he went out pretty hard the night before and I think everyone agreed, maybe a mistake. So for the people listening, when you

get married, there's this, there's, you feel like the night before, like I'm not, you know, well, it's not the wedding. I'm going to go hard tonight. All my friends are here. You're super excited. There's people you haven't been in the same room with that much that long. Everybody's together. Everybody you love is in one spot and it's exciting and you end up drinking and doing whatever and then you stay up too late. And then the next day you're super hungover. The problem is you're wearing this fire retardant tux, right? The tuxes are other than F1 uniforms. I think the hottest thing a man can put on. And if you're, especially outdoor wedding, it's just really risky. So did I say, would I say Kyle's face had like a ton of color? No, no, I wouldn't.

Did he look like he had been out the night before? I could tell. I'm not sure if like his 80 year old aunt could tell, but he made it. He had to be a upright. I think what was interesting was, um, the wedding rehearsal at the wedding. I wouldn't say it was like strongly rehearsed, but it was kind of endearing. Like it all kind of worked out in the right ways, but there was a couple of moments when, um, they, it felt like Missoula might have been in charge a couple times

a couple timeouts i would have called good thing is kyle's built for that scenario i feel like hungover kyle like he's you that's he's he's functional in that way like if anybody if i'm asking anybody to play hurt on a day like that kyle's probably in the top five draft picks jim cunningham who uh was a beloved grantland Ringer employee who worked for us for a while and is very close to Kyle, he officiated the wedding and did a really good job. And it was funny. And then Kyle and Alana did vows. And they were really good vows.

I got to say, they were high up there, both genuine, really thoughtful. Kyle, bagged it out. Chat GP, you think, which one gt gpc said ai do it yeah no i i don't oh that's a tech joke just a tech joke you have tech no i don't think i i was thinking about it you made me think like whether he had some ai help i don't think I, I was thinking about it. You made me think like whether he had some AI help. I don't know if he did. You said the, you said the best man speeches were good, right?

You said, or you said all the speeches were good. Yeah. So, um, we had five speeches. All of them kept them pretty short. I think they did a good job of,

well, that, so his best man made of honor. There was Kyle's other best man. Yeah. And then the, yeah, that's the two dads. Oh, total. Total. I thought you meant five aside. Yeah, that's true.

The two dads. The bride's dad gave a great speech, no notes. It was impressive. Really rattled it off like he was doing a first take segment. It was great. Yeah, Van Pelt's speech was like an Emmy. He could have won an Emmy for that, his. Right.

Because he didn't need anything. But the speeches were all good nobody nobody no stumbles you know there's a couple wedding subplots that i can't go into that maybe we could talk about off air that were pretty fun um we're gonna have kyle around like we'll cover we'll do wedding part two maybe on mine there's There's stuff I don't know. I'm there. I'm just trying to keep a low profile. I'm not sure what happened yesterday because it was a Friday wedding. So you had a whole outdoor Saturday thing that I think went for a while. I was really happy for the guy.

I've known him since he was a kid. I think we met when he was like eight years old. But then he moved out here in 2016 and worked for my HBO show. And then taught him how to tape, basically taught him how to produce a podcast. And now he's one of the best producers we have. It was good. He just seemed like an adult.

I was really proud of him. So it sounds condescending, but I was just like, wow, Kyle's an adult. He's getting married. He has a job. He's handling his business correctly. I was proud of him. It sounds condescending, but I was just like, wow, Kyle's an adult. He's getting married. He has a job. He's handling his business correctly.

I was proud of him. Not the not the hilarious story you were expecting. No, I kind of expected to keep I don't know how you felt, Ryan, but I thought he was he was really on top of it. I just wanted I was more worried about the buddies than I was than I was about him. I was never worried about the buddies than I was about him. I was never worried about him. Never. Any. Because.

You know, and he's. Well, how old is he? Two. How old is he? He's not 30, right? He's not. Yeah, he's not even 30. So if I.

29. If I had been married before I was 30, I'm 100% hungover at my wedding. I wouldn't get drunk at the wedding, but I'd be dying hungover because I'd be so fired up to see all of my buddies. And you may have stumbled on a side business. Wreathable tuxedos for dudes that get married in their 20s. That's what I'm saying. I got married in Boston. I was 33 years old and all my friends were in one spot or in the city and I did not handle it correctly.

And that the day of the wedding in boston it was 85 88 degrees something like that and i thought i was going to die in the tux i had a friend i saw you i saw you two nights before at the force came over and raided the table your family was there they're like who the fuck is this guy yeah the um i had a friend once that actually like keeled over during the ceremony from from the scent from that combination he was younger but that same kind of drinking too much tuxedo the next day and if again if you're likely to like if stress is gonna add to whatever sort of genomes are going on on the inside and everything else. If you actually have the anxiety hangover too, not just the physical one, and then you're standing up and you're in front of all

these people, that's a really tough spot. You're standing up for a while. The guy stands up for a while because the bride's back there. They're working on her dress. Nobody sees her. The groom comes out. He's out there on display for like 20 minutes waiting for everybody to come down if i had gotten married in my 20s lock of the year you know that day i would have felt terrible but i probably wouldn't have drank during the wedding because i would have been like you know what let's let's get this over with and then we'll plan the rest of our lives together that's kind of how i was i was i think i was 29 when i got married and you know again there's just people they're like everyone that sees you they're just handing you a drink right beforehand i'm just like oh man i can't be doing this but my dad

bought like a giant bottle of maker's mark just i don't know just because to have around for whatever reason and somebody used it yeah it was pretty great and somebody went about one of the my brother-in-law actually used it as like a prop during like the introductions right so he comes out he's like oh i'm drinking the bottle maker's mark then people just started like on the dance floor doing drinking from the bottle and that was a mistake in the long run because we had a couple buses take people back from the hotel both buses all of my buddies were just puking everywhere so it was not a great the night was great they were all a big hit and then the buses on that 20 30 minute ride back to the hotel uh probably weren't the best situation so I can get out of here quickly. There's different wedding age ranges.

I went to a couple like right out of college when everybody is like 23, 24, 25. Those are the ones that are just absolutely bonkers. Dude, they're Woodstock 99. I mean, they are like the first when you're a college group, the first two guys, you're right. They get married. It is insane. If I had advice now for guys, not that I do this on the podcast every single episode, but it's actually a great point. Like if you're close kind of on the calendar with two of your other college buddies, let

them go first. Let them go first and tell your girl you want to wait a year. It's like the first post postseason for an NBA team. It's just 90 things. You just haven't been there before. You just don't know. You're basically the Cavaliers this year. Yeah.

You're taking a shit at home. You need to go through the battles. Yeah, exactly. You can't get the scars. Yeah, we had our first two from college. We're just, yeah. But yeah, you get older. The other thing, I mean, it's a little more somber, but we had a memorial service for my wife's dad today. It was Kyle's grandfather. And there was a couple of speeches, but Kyle gave a really good speech

for that too. It was easily the most adult weekend I've seen from him. Wait, wait, you guys went from that into this today? Friday to Sunday, yeah. We did that. It was Sunday. He passed away a few months ago. So it was just, we knew when we were going to be back to where everyone was from. It was a belated service, but he did a good job with that too.

Our guy's all growns up, man. I'm really starting to feel it. It's starting to happen. Love it. And they go right into the honeymoon or is he back on tuesday no he's back yeah he's coming back next week so you'll be able to recap listen here's my advice if i could uh there's some there's some stories from each night with the friends that i think you could probably dive into well i think there's a little animosity to be honest with you

because i haven't heard. Yeah. Who knows? Who knows what the rivalries when you get in a playoff situation, like a wedding, who knows? Um, yeah. All right. So for continuation of,

of the, uh, wedding stories, listen to Priscilla. When will you get it? Is he doing the Tuesday pod? I think he's back on Tuesday. Yeah.

So. Oh, there you go. Priscilla dive in. All right. Get the stuff. Uh, this podcast was produced by our guy, Isaiah Blakely, Celtic fan,

who I haven't really talked to since the Celtics. Just by chance, we haven't talked since the Celtics came back from 3-0 and then collapsed in Game 7. Isaiah, I'm glad you're recovered from the loss. So, Rudy, good to see you as always. I will be back on this podcast doing an after game around Monday night. And then you can listen to Rosillo on Tuesday for the deeper dive. Plus, Nefica.

Rosillo, good to see you as always. on the wayside never on the side I don't have a few years with him on the wayside on the wayside never on the side I don't have a few years

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