The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Kawhi-DeRozan Emergency Trade Podcast With Kevin O'Connor, Shea Serrano, Joe House, and Bill's Dad | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 391)

Episode Date: July 18, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O'Connor and Shea Serrano (1:55), Joe House (44:25), and Bill's dad (1:12:15) to examine all the angles involved in the Kawhi Leonard–DeMar DeRozan trade. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We are doing a greatest trailers thing, trying to figure out the greatest trailers of the last 30 years. You can vote. It's fun. It's a good argument. I still love the social network. That's on there. We have pieces about the new movie, Eighth Grade. We have pieces about the Kawhi Leonard trade that we're about to talk about with Kevin O'Connor. We're going to call Shea Serrano. We're going about the Kawhi Leonard trade that we're about to talk about with Kevin O'Connor. We're going to call Shea Serrano. We're going to call Joe House, my dad, and it's going to be a Kawhi extravaganza. Who won this trade? What does it mean? How does it shake up the NBA landscape? But first, Pearl Jam. All right, we're taping this 9 o'clock a.m. Pacific time.

I was actually up last night. Kevin O'Connor is here. Shea Serrano is on the telephone. We'll get to them in a second. I somehow was up when this trade happened. I watched a World Series of Poker. I was a little bit wired. I might have snuck into my daughter's room

because she's away for soccer and played an hour of Fortnite. And then I was lying in bed and I literally checked Twitter at 1.30 in the morning and Shams and Woj were in a bomb war on this Kawhi thing. My first reaction was,

wow, that's a pretty good trade for the Spurs. That's where I've landed since then. KSA, we'll get you. Take one second. Shea, you woke up and this trade had happened? Is that what happened? That is correct. I fell asleep last night watching Superbad, as one tends to do.

And when I woke up this morning, I had 600 messages on my phone. KOC, same thing? Pretty much. I've heard about the trade from your text. That was the first thing I saw. I was like, pot it, I am. It was like Popovich's last act of revenge on everyone.

He's like, I'm not giving this to you at 2.30 in the afternoon. You're going to get this in the middle of the night. You're going to wake up and have to scramble without coffee and all this stuff. So Kawhi now, I mean, there's so much to unpack. I want to talk about the biggest superstar for superstar trades ever. I want to talk about who won the trade, all that stuff. But just fundamentally, my first big takeaway, manu is the last one left standing from that last finals team i think the odds on this would have been 100 to 1 four years ago right

shay manu is the last one standing this is unbelievable yeah this is not how it was supposed to go it was supposed to go tim first which which we saw. Yeah. And then after that, three years later, it was supposed to be Manu at the end of 2019. And then at the end of 2024, it was supposed to be Tony. And then Kawhi was supposed to carry us. Through the 2020s? Easily, yes. So what happens? You've thrown out all your Kawhi stuff.

You have turned your back on him. Are you in the house when he returns with the Raptors to boo the hell out of him like everybody else? How does this play out from a Spurs fan standpoint? Oh, yeah, yeah. That's going to be a nasty night. It'll be fun.

Part of me is like, okay, Kawhi won us the 2014 championship, so you have to be appreciative of that. But yeah, that comes with it. When he shows up for that first game in San Antonio, it's going to be a nasty environment. Very similar to when KD showed up the first time in LKC, and they had the giant cupcakes were all around,

and everybody had T-shirts. It's going to be like that. Not like a nasty, nasty, literally just a mean thing, but it'll be fun. I will say the Spurs fans have an extra nasty gear that OKC fans I don't think have. Truly. I think that Spurs fans, they can go to another level. KOC, tell me this take is wrong.

The Spurs just traded the fifth or sixth best player in the league who didn't play last year. Maybe the third even. Well, I downgraded them a little because of the injury risk stuff. For somebody who played crunch time in the all-star game in February, who was eighth in the MVP balloting, who is in his prime, who is somewhere between the 10th and 13th best player in the league, and they got Jacob Pertl, and they got a protected first round pick. I feel like this was a huge win for the Spurs. Plus, DeRozan under contract for three years. Is this the best they could do?

Yeah, I think based on the fact that they didn't want a pick space package, certainly. I mean, you can disagree with that. I would rather have had a future focus type? Certainly. I mean, you can disagree with that. I would rather have had a future-focused type of deal if I'm the Spurs, but based on what they desired, this is a win for them because you imagine DeRozan under Greg Popovich winning their system, maybe his play gets elevated to another level because, look, DeRozan, he's in his mid-late 20s right now, but there's still room for him to grow as he has,

even each of the last three or four seasons as he's entered into his, but there's still room for him to grow as he has, even each of the last three or four seasons as he's entered into his prime. There's still room for him to get better. It's a great deal for the Spurs, considering the circumstances and a no-win situation. Yeah, I feel like he is somebody that every summer works hard to either add something to his game or improve something to his game. He's not going to decline. At the very least, He'll be a 23,

five and five guy. Like he's been the last couple of years. He's somebody who can play in crunch time. Shay, I know it's a, it's a bleak day for you. I just want to point out, you have two all NBA guys on your team,

two current reigning all NBA guys. Only 15 guys make the all NBA team. It's a 30 team league. and you have two of them. I feel like this is a triumphant day for San Antonio. This is a very good day for San Antonio for two different reasons. Number one, the one you're talking about, we've already 10 minutes after the news came out, talked ourselves into DeMar DeRozan.

Yeah, there it goes. We've got, we've got Chip England. Chip England was teaching the shoot the three. after the news came out, talked ourselves into DeMar DeRozan. Yeah, there it goes. In a couple years. We've got Chip England. Chip England was teaching the shooter three. He taught Tony to shoot three. He taught Kawhi. We're fine. We're good there. And then LaMarcus Aldridge and DeMar DeRozan, two of the most dynamic personalities in the league.

Oh wait, not at all. But kind of fits in with the Spurs. Yeah, it does. And Shane mentioned Chip England being able to help DeRozan as a shooter. DeRozan started off last year shooting the ball really well. Then he fell off. But the one thing that he continued doing well last season was playmaking. He improved drastically as a passer. Before, when he'd just pull up for mid-range in the past,

last season he started to look for cutters, or he kicked it out to three-point shooters. DeRozan became a better player last season, he started to look for, you know, cutters or he kicked it out three point shooters. DeRozan became a better player last season, turning 28 years old. And maybe now in San Antonio, maybe the next step is, as Shea said, improving that three point shot under the guidance of Chip England. I thought, yeah, I thought it was really unfair how it played out for him for where his place in the league is standpoint last season. Through February, he was an MVP candidate.

He was, I actually ended up voting Oladipo over him for second team. We already talked about that. I put him third team on the NBA. Yeah. But it was close. Yeah. And Oladipo was somebody who was the best player on a team that went toe to toe with Cleveland.

But, you know, the sweep against Cleveland really kind of flipped people on them. And all of a sudden, the last two weeks when there were rumors Toronto was involved, nobody was like, wow, they're trading DeRozan? The attitude was more like, eh, Toronto, time to blow it up. It was a blow it up team for you. They fired Dwayne Casey and they basically late last night traded their best player. But I actually think he's a little undervalued now because, you know,

we see it in Boston with Al Horford. People pick apart the stars, but there's really not a lot of stars. You know, DeRozan, let's say he's the 12th best guy in the league. This is the entire league. There's 30 teams. I don't know. I would much rather have that than the Zaire Smith. Keep my fingers crossed for the Miami pick.

I also don't feel like that's the Spurs way. Like pop has two years left. Do you think that was part of the shape? Pops? Like I'm not going down as a rebuilding thing. I want to compete. Yeah, absolutely.

Everybody knew pop was leaving. I mean, he's supposed to be gone in like 2020 or something like that. Let's load it up and let's, let's fire two last shots and see what happens for sure. You know what I'm excited about? The big knock on DeRozan, and I'm guilty of this too,

is we just talk about how the Raptors fall apart in a playoff. I'm excited to see what happens when he's in a spot where they're known for not doing that. Does everything change when you've got that reputation behind you now? Yeah, it's a 47-win team adding one of the best scorers in the league. Yeah, last three years, 24.5 points a game, 46% from field goal percentage, 84% from pre-throw. He's actually a good closer.

I call him the coolers, the end of the games, the guys who can come in when you're – Draws a lot of fouls. Yeah. When you're up three with a minute left and you just need somebody to get foul, go to the line. Last three years, eight free throws a game attempted. I love guys that get to the line. So KOC, him and Aldridge together, he's never really had a pick and pop guy like this. What do you see with with the spacing and with those two and like if i if i'm defending that and everybody else is cleared on the other

side what does that look like you know it'll be interesting i think with san antonio right they were one of the most mid-range heavy teams last season they were kind of the one team zagging or everybody else was digging to shoot more threes uh i wonder if they stick with that and you know now that you have another kind of mid-range base player like DeRozan, or maybe you're stretching those guys out and trying to push their games, you know, to the three-point line. I think, you know, San Antonio is always going to ball movement, always getting emotion-based offense. And that's why DeRozan's evolution last year was so exciting, right? Elevating his play as a passer passer you know he improved early on as a shooter and maybe with san antonio again that that gets to another level playing alongside someone like an aldrich who

by the way i mean another guy kind of underrated here uh he was an all nba guy last year a borderline mvp candidate the way he carried san antonio into the playoffs um without kawaii leonard he was remarkable last season. It was one of the best seasons of his career. Dranted, he's a little older now. I'm excited. I'm excited for the San Antonio Spurs to see how some of their younger guys develop

alongside two stabilizers in DeRozan and Aldridge. DeRozan was third-team All-NBA in 2017, second-team All-NBA in 2018. It's really kind of crazy that, and I do believe in part of this, like it does matter that they got killed by Cleveland every year. Like that's, yeah, that's part of you. When you talk about the Rose and that's got me in the first paragraph at the same time, LeBron's made eight straight finals.

And he's the second best player of all time. That series against Toronto last year was a little closer than a sweep. I think we remember the last game, and it just seems like Toronto quit. But that first game, Toronto should have won. They just completely choked it away. That was something else. Game three came down to, was game three the buzzer beater? Yeah, game three, 105-103.

Cleveland won that one. Yeah, that series was a sweep, but it wasn't like... There wasn't three for 12, eight points in that game. One of the reasons why people soured on him. Yeah, not great. Not great. I was feeling real good for a minute. Sorry, Shay.

That's why I'm here, Shay. But it was a weird Toronto team. I didn't love the way Lowry played last year, and I thought he looked out of shape. And if anything, I thought Van Vliet was better for them during the regular season in some respects. In the playoffs, Van Vliet had the classic I've never been in the playoffs before.

I think he'll be better this year. But just the Ibaka, Valanchunas, the pieces never really totally fit. And as the season went along, they had that pivotal game in, it was either in Cleveland or in Toronto on the Friday night when they're up 30 and they blew it.

And it felt like they were never the same after that. I do agree with the philosophy of Toronto to, to at least take a risk. And we can talk about that in a second, but I still think like getting to Rosen, how many two guards are ahead of him right now? Not many. Harden? Is Harden a two guard? I consider him a one. I mean, really

a guard's a guard. Yeah. I mean, in his role, sometimes he's a point, sometimes he's a two. Yeah, Harden, Oladipo, whether those are one slash twos, whatever. And then it's like all the other two guards, and we have to be forgetting somebody. Are we forgetting somebody?

All the other twos are basically like specialists. It's funny. Cause there's not a lot of quote unquote, pure classic two guards anymore. DeRozan's kind of a throwback player, isn't he? Yeah. Well,

somebody that can create shots for other guys. He's the thing I always liked about DeRozan is he reminds me of guys that grew up watching. Like he was like a seventies eighties kind of guard where the three point he didn't really care about it he wanted to get to the line he wanted to get like instead of the 20 footer they're giving him get the 17 footer and just a really smart player he killed the Celtics I mean he he kind of models his game like that as well I've talked to his uh trainer Chris Farr a couple of times for articles the past two years about like DeRozan's footwork and you know something about improving a shot last summer and playmaking last summer.

And, you know, Chris Farr has always said, like, you know, he is Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant were the two guys that he models his game after. Right. And you can see it on the court, the footwork, the footwork moves that, you know, that that's his style. It's that 90s, early 2000s brand of basketball as an ISO scorer. It just so happened that instead of sticking to that, he expanded and modernized it a little bit last year. And maybe that gets turned up now with San Antonio with their system. The Spurs have to be excited about this, knowing how good DeRozan is, considering he improved every year. There's no complacency with his game. Maybe now there's an extra kick. There could be more to his game

in San Antonio. It's still all about the shot, though. He needs to improve defensively as well. He's not bad defensively. Sometimes. He's fine. He's average. He can be fine when he wants to be.

Maybe, again, in San Antonio's defense-first culture, maybe you bring him into that, and he becomes a more consistent defender. Shay, chip on his shoulder. San Antonio, the entire city has a chip on its shoulder. This is great. Yeah, it feels good.

You know what this feels like? You remember that movie, The Beach? Yeah. With Leo? Of course. Okay. So in The Beach, they find this exotic island that they all live on.

Everybody's having a great time.'s that was the spurs before and then there's a shark attack two brothers get attacked by a shark one of them ends up dying the other one gets really really wounded right and after they bury the one dead brother the other one is just sort of laying there miserable and the whole rest of the island is like just waiting for him to hurry up and die and nobody will do anything about it and they decide like we can't take this anymore they just take him and basically they leave him in the forest in the rainforest or island forest whatever you call it they take him and they drop him off and then they just walk away and immediately after that everybody feels better because he's gone that's what it feels feels like right now. We dropped Kawhi off all the way to Canada.

Papa's like, hey, you want to go play in L.A.? Awesome. Have fun in Canada for a year. And here we are. Like, it feels good right now. There's like several versions of good that we're feeling. It's pretty comical that he wanted to go to, you know, enjoy the beaches of L.A. in December and January.

Now he's in Toronto. Toronto's a great city, though. And maybe Masai Ujiri and the Raptors can feel like he's going to have a whole country behind him for this next year. Toronto's a great place. Yeah, it is. Absolutely. But it's just the opposite of where he

wanted to go, which is a very pop thing to do. I joked on Twitter about Pop saying enjoy Canada with a gif of him laughing. I'm sure a couple Canadians got upset because the Canadians are very touchy. I love Canada. I just thought it was hilarious that Kawhi was like, I want to go to LA. And Pop sent him

to the coldest city in the entire league. The exact opposite of Southern California. Oh yeah, LA sounds great. How about Toronto? Bring a fucking jacket, Kawhi. We're going to take a break. yeah, LA sounds great. How about Toronto? Bring a fucking jacket, Coy. We're going to take a break. We'll be right back.

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Get Gillette performance delivered to your door. Find Gillette 5 at GilletteOnDemand.com. Subscribe today. All right, we're back from break. KOC reminded, reminded me during the break that Clay Thompson, awesome to guard, but the list of the old school two way can score and defend type of

guards. Not a long one. I have a question. Are we sure Kawhi Leonard isn't a little tiny bit overrated right now? So here's, here's the resume. 2014 goes toe-to-toe against LeBron, right? 15, 16,

17, all defense. First team. There's only three years. All NBA, first team, 16. All NBA, first team, 17. Does not play last year. We have no idea what his state of mind is. We have no idea how injured he is. We have no idea where he's playing next year.

And by all accounts, seems super focused on moving to LA. KOC, my question, have we seen the best of Kawhi Leonard already? I mean, it at least has to be mentioned, right? It's very possible. And this was part of my argument for why the Lakers should resist trading Brandon Ingram and some heavy package around him for Kawhi Leonard. Because you don't really know

how to value the player right now. A, he's coming off a season in which he played only nine games and it's not just a one-time injury. The injury first happened in 2012 to his opposite quadriceps. Then it came back in 2016. Then obviously it derailed his 2017-18 season don't know if that's going to be a problem going forward so do you get that you have the la contract situation where he's a one

year deal with a player option for the following season and he has eyes for los angeles yeah and and then it's the fact that you gotta give up something nice if you're philadelphia boston or or the lakers or clippers toronto was a team that they get to give up something nice. If you're Philadelphia, Boston, or the Lakers or Clippers, Toronto was a team that they were in a position where they're like, you know what, screw it. We can take this gamble because we're not going anywhere. The next two years, this is a one-year gamble and maybe longer on a guy who, you know, the last time we saw him at his greatest health

was second or third best player in the league. Is he overrated? Maybe he's overvalued right now uh but the variant the the upside is there for him to be the second or third best player agree but the problem is like he might be actually trading for the 20th best if he's not the same anymore it's a super volatile asset i guess is my point i listen i think he's one of the two best perimeter defensive players i've ever seen in my life. I was so impressed two years ago that they could run the entire offense. They're amazing. I do not think he really enjoys or likes being the face of a team. And I do not think he likes or enjoys all the stuff that comes

with being a franchise superstar on and off the court and dealing with the media and a level of transparency that we've just come to expect in the, in the 2010s, the era of social media. Here's what I'm doing right now. Here's me working out. Here's what I ate. He never posted.

Here's me in a concert. Yeah. He just wants no part of it. He's he's, I wouldn't say he's a weird guy. He's just an intensely private guy. Shay, you're kind of excited to see him go, like removing all the bitterness of the basketball

thing. Other than the actual on the court basketball, not that fun to kind of have in your life, right? No, it was always a different version than what we had with Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan's quietness was charming. It felt purposeful and meaningful when he didn't talk. You know, that was like the thing with Tim. If Tim tapped you on your head on the way to the timeout,

it was like the biggest compliment you could get. That sort of thing was charming. It felt like a choice with him. Because you could tell the teammates loved him. You could tell he was the emotional center of the team at all times. Whenever I wrote about Duncan, I would always write about coming out of timeouts. He'd always have his arms around guys. He was like the big brother.

And I never felt, Kawhi was always this kind of detached, almost like a tennis player or something. This only child tennis player that's kind of like, I'm here. You know? So you saw that. It's never felt the same with Kawhi. I just have a lot of questions about, can he be the face of a franchise consistently? Can he stay healthy?

Where's his head at? Why is he so obsessed with LA? Why did his personal life get so wonky the last eight, nine months? He is this agent that represents basically no other players in the league and an uncle who's running his life. And it just seems like there's some baggage. So when I look at the trade from Toronto, clearly they wanted to get out of either Lowry or DeRozan's contract and do a pseudo Hail Mary. If it doesn't work, well, Lowry's an expiring deal the next year. Kawhi leaves and they just blow, Ibaka leaves. They blow it up and rebuild.

They have all this, whatever. I really like the idea of Kawhi and Toronto. I think, you know, Kyle Lowry has always been one of the more charming guys in the NBA. It's going to be funny to see him standing down next to Kawhi. It's going to be like in that movie Big Hero 6 when the kid was friends with Baymax, the robot. It's going to feel like it's going forward. I think maybe what might end up happening, best case scenario, they do really well. And then we end up with what we saw in OKC with Paul George when everyone was expecting him to leave to L.A. after the year was over.

And he was like, no, I had a great time. This is where I belong. Maybe that happens in Kauai. Maybe Kauai's icy cold demeanor fits in perfectly in icy cold Toronto. So I was talking to a friend today who advanced this theory. Here's my counter. I think Westbrook, there's like a cult of Westbrook that you get caught up into.

I didn't know that OKC fans are going to turn this into a dig. It's not, I think you go there and especially after Durant left to Westbrook won the MVP. And it's a little like what happened in LA with Kobe last century, last decade, where it's either like, you're either for Russ or against us and we're all for Russ and fuck everybody else.

We did have a for Russ and against Russ article. And the ringer was like that too. That was a rigorous act, but I think you get caught up in that and it gets to the point where Westbrook shooting 43 shots in a do or die playoff game. And nobody on his team is like, what the fuck just happened? Why did he do that?

He killed us? People are like, that was great. I love playing with Russ. I'd love to come back. I think you get swept up in it. Toronto doesn't have anyone like that. There's no cult of Kyle Lowry. Are you sure that wasn't a dig against Russ?

Shay, you decide. Was that a dig against Russ? Yeah, it started out pretty great and then you stuck the knife in there that was a butter knife but Shea you root against OKC there is like a cult of Russ and Paul George by this summer was like

I love Russell Westbrook I'd love to keep playing with him we're gonna throw a party together don't know it's my resigning it's like what but he takes a lot of pressure off dudes and I wonder if Kawhi that's ultimately their doughnuts by resigning. It's like, what? But he takes a lot of pressure off dudes. And I wonder if Kawhi, that's ultimately his destiny as a player. He doesn't want to be the guy with all the attention

doing all the superstar stuff, but we'd love to be next to the guy who takes all that off him and just plays basketball. It's not going to be like that in Toronto. That's for sure. He's replacing the greatest player in Raptors franchise history

that who just was the star player of their greatest teams in franchise history. There's a lot on his shoulders when everybody knows, everybody in the league knows that he, or at least his circle, wants to be in Los Angeles. But if you're Toronto, you've got to take, I mean, you're taking the risk. It's a one-year gamble.

You weren't winning the title. Toronto, yeah, you weren't. And now you have a guy who has higher upside than DeRozan or anything else he gave up. And maybe Toronto has a fantastic fan base. That crowd is unbelievable. Maybe after one year there playing high-level competition, maybe you make a finals run even or an Eastern Conference finals run,

seven games. Maybe Kawhi gets swayed like Paul George did. You never know. There's a chance of that having an entire frigging country behind him. It's kind of hard to say no to that. I'm glad you brought this up. This is Toronto's

best chance to keep him. Toronto is the new girlfriend after the old girlfriend where it just went bad and he needed a breakup and there's just a lot of bitterness and he had to go

when she was at work he had to go over there and get his stuff out and now he kind of ended up with Toronto he doesn't really like it but Toronto's like we love you Kawhi you know sometimes

come to us be the hero of Canada sometimes with relationships it's not about that early spark it's about something develops over time maybe with Toronto it can be that Shay's throwing out I'm throwing a movie at you now no

you've done two movies are you gonna say Casino no oh Casino's a good one I was gonna say I've never said one when he's like

love can develop just marry me like that's what that's what Toronto's trying oh that's pretty good I was gonna go with The Vanishing I've never seen that

oh yeah yeah yeah Kiefer Sutherland Sandra Bullak disappears. He spends three years trying to find her. And then the cocktail waitress or the diner waitress, he ends up dating her, but his heart's not really in it. And that's kind of where Kawhi is right now. But eventually they end up together.

And that might be how this plays out. I don't think Kawhi's heart is going to be in this right away. I'll be really interested to see. What if he just says, I'm not going? Is that in play, KLC? Well, the Chris Haynes report earlier today that said he's not about playing in Toronto. Chris Carter the other day saying,

Kawhi Leonard will not play in Toronto. Yeah, there'd be fines involved if that were the case, if it were to come to that. It's a tax hit for him, Shea. No tax in Texas. And then Canada is like one of the highest income taxes anywhere. Shay, DeRozan doesn't seem like he's totally over the heartbreak of Toronto backstabbing him after Toronto claimed they weren't going to trade him.

And then they did. And just his feelings seem hurt. He might be listening. It's possible. We have a lot of people listening to this podcast. Do you have anything to say to DeMar DeRozan?

Do you have a little one-minute spiel for him? I think that his feelings should be hurt. He was betrayed, and that will never happen to you in San Antonio. You come here.

This is where you build a career. We saw it with Tim. We saw it with Dave. We saw it with Manu. Come here. Be beloved forever. You don't have to win a championship right away. You maybe don't even have to

win a championship at all. David didn't win one until Tim showed up. But we loved him because he tried every single night. And that's all we need. Come home, Damar. Come home. That's pretty good. Any last words for Kawhi Leonard on his way out the door?

Yeah, have fun in Canada. That's pretty good. Any last words for Kawhi Leonard on his way out the door? Yeah. Have fun in Canada. That's all. I was thinking about, this is the decade of player empowerment and people deciding where they're going to go and what they're going to do. And the players basically taking control of the league from the teams. It's funny that both guys reacted so badly to the trade. Like, how dare you? I didn't get a say in this. It's like, welcome to basketball. This has been happening the entire time we've had the NBA.

Guys get traded. They don't like it. They don't know what's going to happen. It's a cruel business. It is a business. We saw it last year with Isaiah Thomas going from $100 million to getting shipped out to being damaged goods to signing a $1.5 million contract in a year. And it was just funny. Like the attitude of both guys, like how dare like, Oh my God, they, they told me they wouldn't do this.

It's like, yeah, this is, this is basketball. He'll get over this, right? Of course. Blake Griffin signed a five-year max contract with the Clippers. They put on a whole presentation for him and shipped them out. Masayu Jerry is the guy who re-signed Nene to a deal and traded him about six months and a day after he was able to. It should be expected that your time is going to run out in a new situation. Jerusalem will get over it as soon as he's playing for San Antonio.

And Shea Serrano, they're on opening night, and all the Spurs fans welcome him with open arms. He's like the new star player of the team. He'll fall in love quickly, I think, at San Antonio. Shea, here's your team. DeRozan, Aldridge, Pau Gasol, Rudy Gay, Patty Mills,

Bellinelli's back. Bellinelli, baby. Jakob Pertl. Pertl's pretty good. Dante Cunningham, a little sneaky as like an 11th man. Jakob. Bellinelli, baby. Jakob Purtle. Purtle's pretty good. Dante Cunningham, a little sneaky, is like an 11th man. Manu. Lonnie Walker IV. They're saying he's the best of all the Lonnie Walkers. He's definitely better than the other three.

I'd say so. Deontay Murray. You just described the third seed. The third seed in the Western Conference. That's the third seed right there. Well, here's the other thing. And Shay, we'll leave on this note. Not to turn this into a Spurs party.

I don't think the Rockets are going to be as good as they were. I don't think that's a controversial statement. I think there's a real case to be made that their window might have been last year. And everything went right last year. They won 65 games. They had the perfect kind of team to beat the Warriors. They're catching the Warriors in this weird kind of emotional malaise, whatever was going on.

They take them to, they're up 3-2. Chris Paul gets hurt. Now he's a year older. He's got this giant contract. You know he's going to show up out of shape like he always does. Harden coming off the MVP season. They lost Mbamute. They lost Ariza. They're probably going to end up with Carmelo. They're just not going to be as good defensively. Capella's going to be pissed he didn't get the same contract. So you have that whole thing. I just don't think the Rockets are going to be as good. Now, are they still a top five team? Yes,

but I don't think they're a 65 win team anymore. So you have that. You have the Warriors now doing something that is now impossible where, you know, it might be five straight finals for them, bullseye on them the whole time, guys coming up for contracts next summer. There's some, you know, they're still freaking loaded. Boogie Cousins coming in as a cancer. Like there's some you know they're still freaking loaded boogie cousins coming in as a cancer like there's there's there's some mighty small tiny red flags for the most talented team we've had in the decade lakers with lebron nobody around them they're a year away it's all it's all lebron the door's kind of open for a veteran smart contender who knows what it's doing and is well coached and has two all nNBA players. This isn't unrealistic.

No? Did you just talk me into the Spurs winning the title? They're 20-1. They're 20-1 right now. Yeah. Listen, with the Spurs, for as long as I can remember, the only thing that the Spurs fans have been interested in is A, winning a championship,

and we're pretty sure we're not going to do that this year, or B, beating Houston or Dallas in the playoffs. Those are the only two things we care about every year. Right now, as the teams are constituted, we will play Houston in the playoffs. That will be our finals, and we have a chance to beat them now. Were we playing the Rockets from last year with the team that we have today, we would definitely get the doors blown off. But with all of the weird trades that the Rockets have made, we can beat the Rockets. That's what we're rooting for right now. That's where we're headed. And there's one more possible, you know, there might be one more move for them.

They have guys on one-year deals. They have contracts to patch together. Now they have Perto and Murray and they have Lonnie Walker and two picks in 2019. Derek White, another young player. Yeah, they can potentially make a move to steal one more all-star type caliber. I don't think they're going to win the title, but I do. The timing of this and the fact that they decided to go sideways versus just doing for the future makes me wonder if they think the West is open. It could be open in two years or three years.

And at that point, DeRozan will be 30 years old. Aldridge will be mid-30s, so that's concerning. Rank your Western teams. Golden State, one. Do you still have Houston, two? Are we talking right now, like today? She's going into the season. Most likely for you to win the West.

Golden State, one. Houston. Houston's still two. Yeah, Houston's still two. That third spot, San Antonio, Houston. Houston's still two. Yeah, Houston's still two. That third spot, San Antonio, Utah. Put OKC in there maybe as well. San Antonio, Utah, OKC. Is that our top five?

I think so, yeah. I think the Lakers have to be in there. Just the body work. I think the Lakers have five. I still don't trust the Thunder. I don't trust them either but I do think dumping Carmelo

and having another year of everybody there I actually think they'll be better people feel like OKC was a failure

last year and they were but they still won 48 games it felt like they completely underachieved I think that's a 50 plus win team

yeah I think I'd put them three, maybe Lakers four right now, San Antonio five. But then again, I feel like I'm underrating Utah. Utah's got a really good team. You got Donovan Mitchell coming back one year better, one year more experienced. See, I think the West is better this year.

I don't even think that's a controversial statement. No. They've dispersed the wins of Golden State. Golden State had 60 wins. Houston had 65. Houston's not winning 65 again. The Lakers go up. I think Utah goes up. I think the Spurs tread water and they're right

around where they were last year. And then OKC, I think, is slightly better. It's a loaded conference. We were saying last year was a loaded conference. I think it's better this year. Especially now, you're adding DeRozan. Kawhi did nothing last year.

You're adding LeBron. We didn't even mention Portland or New Orleans who have two-star backcourt players from Portland. I know they're not legitimate contenders, but in terms of the strength of the conference. I'm worried about New Orleans. The signs are there. The signs are there.

The signs are there for the February Davis trade rumors. It's kind of lurking now. Shea, congratulations, man. You did it. You're back. I'm so excited. You're back. Kawhi Leonard, so long.

We will be back. KOC and I are talking right after this break. Let's talk about Wink. Here's a task. Pick out a wine you love, but it has to be one that you haven't had before. Where do you start? Introducing Wink. W-I-N-C.

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$20. That's trywink.com slash BS for $20 off. All right, we're going to call house in a second just to talk about the greatest superstar for superstar trades that we've had. There haven't been a lot. I was shocked. I did all the research today.

Let's talk quickly, KOC, about the teams that did not get Kawhi. I think you and I are aligned on this. If I'm Philly, I don't think I can win the title this year. I'm not going all in for somebody who might not stay. What do you think the best Philly offer was?

I'm not sure what the best offer was, but last I heard is that Fultz even wasn't on the table yeah and if that's the case obviously not going to get it done and even if Fultz were on the table maybe San Antonio isn't into him after you know because you don't know how to value him either I'm not sure there was a deal that made sense for Philadelphia because they're in a position right now where they can they're going to be a really good team for the next five plus years at least or much longer um and taking that

risk on kawaii could have compromised that uh whereas you think like covington sarich in the miami 2021 and they were like yeah we're good week and the same with boston really too like they didn't put jalen even jalen brown on the table so it's like what really is the offer it's it's not it's not strong for san antonio which is probably where you know boston isn't in a position to take that risk. Philadelphia wasn't either. And then there's Toronto, a team that can gamble, that needed to gamble, and they were the team that took that risk. I don't think Boston was ever involved.

I think the only way they were involved is if Smart was involved with the sign-in trade, Morris expiring, and the future picks. I don't think they had any asset on the table. And that might have been what it was. Because shortly after the Kawhi deal happened, there was reports this morning from Woj that Celtics and Smart were talking extension for a four-year deal between $40 million and $50 million. So it's a funny little coincidence

that comes out after the Kawhi deal happens. Oh, I don't think that was a coincidence. I think it's very suspicious that they were very hands-off with Smart there for two and a half weeks and let him talk to other teams. I think he was their chip for Kawhi. And if the Spurs had said to them,

we love Marcus Smart, let's figure this out. I think the deal would have been Marcus Smart, Marcus Morris, and probably that Kings pick. Maybe the Grizzlies one. I don't know if they go all in like that. It's a great what if though,

because if they had gotten Kawhi without giving up Jalen Brown, Tatum or Hayward, they could have put out one of the most bizarre lineups in the history of the league for basically four, six, eight guys at Al Horford. I'm like, what the fuck would that have been? That would have been like watching five Spiderman. That would have been something else to see.

Yeah. So I, Boston was never in it. And I, I am with you. I, that my same instinct and some of my Intel was that smart was the chip. If that was the offer.

Do you think, do you think San Antonio made the right choice in taking the, the reproving all-NBA player and the 28-year-old DeMar DeRozan rather than like a, let's just say it was a couple more picks than you said. Let's just say it was the Kings pick and the Grizzlies pick and one other pick.

It was three first-round picks. I don't think Boston would have done that. If it were. Because they had no, oh, if they could have gotten Kings and Grizzlies and Smart, that's easily the best offer. And that's why I would agree that probably wasn't that, because then I think you would take that future

package. The last time we talked about this, we talked about the double draft, and we thought 2021 had a chance, but then we got intel last week that it's now 2022. That's what I said to you. I was like, well, it could be, but it might not be. And now we're finding out that it might not be at all. It could be 22 or

23, and if that's the case, then suddenly that 2021 pick, it doesn't, it's still valuable, of course, because it still could be that year. But it seems like the odds of it being 2021 are a little bit less than when we talked about it last time.

So you would rather have DeRozan, Pirtle, and a protected one and get rid of Danny Green over Smart for like four years 40 four years 45 Morris expiring

and let's say the Kings pick next year I think I would because that 2019 draft isn't that great there's some nice talent up top but the fact that it's top one protected which means you're not getting RJ Barrett, the best prospect in the draft. Yeah, I think I'd rather have DeRozan. The 2019 pick is good.

It's just, it's valuable, of course. It's a high draft pick and there's going to be good players that exceed expectations in college this year, but the draft isn't great. Weirdly, that trade helps the Kings pick a little for the Celtics because there

was a chance, there was a chance that the Spurs, you know, might've just sucked this year. And now you're putting a team that is top six caliber in the West. And it's just a gauntlet for the Kings. Kings are the worst team in the West. And then the other one that,

that passed up was the Lakers. And I think you were, you and I are aligned on this. I, I don't think they could have won the title next year with just lebron and kawaii and a bunch of young guys i would not have put ingram in the trade i really like josh hart i mean they did a great job they did a really bad job with the lottery picks the way it's worked out the last four years but the heart kuzma picks and i like hard a lot more than kuzma and then

speed mckay luke at 47th pick in this year's draft he was shooting the lights out and not the last four years, but the Hart-Kuzma picks. And I like Hart a lot more than Kuzma. And then Sfee-McKyluk, at the 47th pick in this year's draft, he was shooting the lights out. And not just off the catch, but off the dribble, too. And you like Mo Wagner, too, right? I'm a big Mo Wagner fan. Yeah.

He had a good summer league before. He had the little knee injury, the knee contusion. I thought Josh Hart was good last year. And any Laker fan I knew who talked about or thought about the team rationally, all of them were like, why did they play KCP over Josh Hart?

This is idiotic. Josh Hart should get all of the KCP minutes. Hart should be in the starting conversation. Absolutely. In terms of a fit alongside LeBron James and Brennan Ingram. I think Hart makes a little bit more sense to start rather than KCPPU who's a notoriously inconsistent shooter. And who the coach didn't like. And, you know, not a good shooter. Last year

he shot 38% from three and the Laker fans are like, well, you shot 30. It's like, just look at his whole career. First of all, 38%, you know, if you miss five threes, that's 36%. The entirety of his career is like a 34% three-point shooter. A lot of those are wide open.

Yeah, he's a 34.5% for his career from three. I just feel like you can find those guys for $2 million. I don't need to pay $12 million for KCP. What I do want is Julius Randle on my team, and I think they should have kept him, and they really screwed that up.

All right, House is calling. All right, Joe House is on the line. House, we've dissected this trade for the last 45 minutes, KOC and an ecstatic Shea Serrano. What was your gut reaction waking up this morning to this trade? My very first gut reaction was, this is so petty. I couldn't enjoy it more. I love the – I saw after I saw the news and started

going through the Twitter and everything, you posted a GIF of Popovich doing the wave to, to, to Kawhi on his way to Toronto, the, the apparent pettiness. Now I know this didn't have anything to do with any of the decision-making, but on the face of it, oh, Kawhi, you would like to go to Los Angeles? How about you try Toronto this winter, my friend? Because that's where you're headed. I love that. You rooted against DeRozan in the Eastern Conference, as did myself and KOC, who's now an atheist with the NBA because he has to cover it. I think DeRozan's really good. Is it unfair? We thought it was a little unfair that his entire career is now characterized by these LeBron ass kickings.

What did you think? I agree with that sentiment. I think he is really good. I have been enamored of him since he signed that huge contract because the very first thing he did after sign was go to the gym. All of the social media and genuine media reports about him and his dedication to his craft and his dedication to keeping himself fit, all of which followed the signing of the contract, are so impressive to me. And he went out and kicked ass both seasons.

He, more than any other player, really pulled Toronto up into that upper echelon of the Eastern Conference from my way of thinking about things. That's how I feel, too. I thought he was... I just didn't think Lowry was that good last year. And he really did seem like he was playing himself in this shape as the year went along. I liked the Rosen.

I thought Lowry was pretty good. I wouldn't say that I didn't think. No, for him. I mean, I just didn't think it was his best year. I didn't think he was bad, but I didn't think it was. But, you know, I went to the All-Star game in February and DeMar was in the closing crunch time lineup for one of the two teams. Like, that matters to me. We were saying to Shea, Aldridge and DeRozan both made All-NBA last year.

There's 30 teams in the league. They have two of the top 15 guys. The Spurs are kind of back with a chip on their shoulder. Pretty good. I mean, pretty good haul. I was wondering whether they would get Anunobi as well because that would have been really the star of the trade. I was impressed by Pirtle.

Is that how we say it? KFC Pirtle? Yeah, Jacob Pirtle. I was impressed by him too. I liked him. I actually thought he should have played more. I didn't love him in the draft, and he's totally exceeded my expectations.

He's turned into a good player already, a good contributor. There were times last season for Toronto you would rather have had him on the floor than Balanchunas. He's turned into a good player already, a good contributor. There were times last season for Toronto you would rather have had him on the floor than Valanchunas. He moves great. House, you realize KOC roots against anybody he didn't have high in the draft?

Well, that's the KOC pettiness. If Purtle had a herniated disc, KOC would be secretly fist pumping like, yes, another one for me. It's good to be wrong when it comes to drafts. It's always a learning experience. We love this trade. I love superstar for superstar trades. We're going right after this break to talk about the greatest star for star trades of all time. But first this. Let's talk about Miller Lite. Here at The Ringer, we have our disagreements.

We're going to argue about this Kawhi trade all year. Should the Spurs have done it? Should the Raptors have done it? Should some other teams have done it? You've just heard us talking about that for a while. Look, there's no debate about one thing. Miller is the great tasting light beer with only 96 calories, 3.2 grams of carbs. That's fewer calories than

half the carbs of Bud Light. There's really nothing more to talk about. There's no fifth piece about who won the trade or what does this mean for the... That's it. These are the facts. If you have a real argument, let me hear it. Until then, stick with Miller Lite. Miller Lite, the official beer of me in college, by the way. Miller Lite, hold true. So I did a little research, talked to an anonymous NBA friend

who knows this stuff, went through my Hall of Fame pyramid to try to figure out... Did his name rhyme with Whalen? No. Oh, okay. Went through my Hall of Fame pyramid, the 100 guys and all the honorable mention guys on my revised list that I have not released and went through each person and see if they got traded. Here are my biggest star for star trades ever. And then we can decide where this ranks.

Number one, Jason Kidd for Stefan Marbury. That was my house. Remember Stefan Marbury. That was, my house, remember when that happened? That was a fucking nuclear bomb. Kidd was like, Kidd had made first team all NBA the year before and Marbury was the best young point guard in the league.

That was a shocker. It was a shocker. It's funny to hear it though, number one, because I can't get the taste of Steph and how his career turned out out of my head or out of my mouth. Exactly.

It's not a great taste. Well, I'm trying to think who the equivalent of Steph now would be for a trade like that. Like, Dame Lillard's almost like too old. He's 27, 28 now. Dame Lillard's probably a little too good, too. Yeah, Steph was really good. How many all-N NBA teams did Steph make?

Well, I'm just saying that he was 22 at that point and was considered to be like the next guy. You know? So whoever the point, who's the point guard equivalent of that now? It'd be somebody in like the 2004, maybe like Devin Booker.

I was just going to say him. Yeah. Devin Booker a year from now. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. Uh, Devin Booker of Devin Booker made an All-Star team.

Number two, going way back here, Dennis Johnson for Paul Westfall. This was a great trade because they had just played in the playoff series. DJ was the 79 Finals MVP. Westfall, for four straight years, I think he made three first-te base and one second team on BA and was coming off that run.

And they were basically the two, two of the three best two guys in the league. The other one was George Gervin. That was a bombshell 40 years ago. I remember going to school the next day and nobody gave a shit. Cause nobody cared about the NBA, but that, that,

that was like the closest for just star for star, same position that I can remember. You're not with me, House? 40 years later, people also are having that same reaction. Yeah, I'm just giving you star for star. I mean, it doesn't, you know. We're at the point

where we've heard two trades on this list and what this is really pointing out is there are not very frequent superstar for superstar trades in the NBA. That's where I'm going with this. Looking back at that, as someone who wasn't alive at the time, Paul Westfall only played one year in Seattle. Yeah. And then he went to New York. And he got hurt.

Yeah. Yeah. And DJ ended up getting traded two years later, so that one didn't work out either. Kid from Arbury worked out incredibly well for New Jersey. They made the finals two straight times. All right, number three on my list, Sean Kemp for Vin Baker. Vin Baker.

So here's another one where in the moment was a monster deal and worked out terribly for both sides. Sean Kemp became one of the worst contracts in the league. Cleveland ended up sticking him to Portland. The Vin Baker part of it goes to Seattle, does really well for your mixed and all-star team, meshes with GP,

and eventually starts having a ton of off-court problems, becomes an alcoholic, and dumbass Chris Wallace trades for him in Boston a few years later and ruins our, ruins multiple teams. Two guys with, you know, kind of basketball tragedies, not necessarily life tragedies, but like either one really realized the true potential. So House and I did not have a podcast, or I don't even know if I had a column during the 96 finals.

We might have had an hour and a half long phone call about Sean Kemp during the finals at one point. This is a fact. We both loved him. I could not have loved him more. We actually, I think there's a case to be made. He was the best player in that series. Michael Jordan did not play well

in that series. Kemp was like a freaking beast. And then they signed Jim McElveen from House's Wizards and everything fell apart. All right, number four on my list, a trade near and dear to Joe House's heart.

Oh no. Only the opposite of that because it's near and dear to his rectum. Oh, no. Chris Webber for Mitch Richmond. Oh, I thought it was going to be Gugliotta. No, that doesn't count. You have to throw in picks for that. Okay.

Yeah. House was traumatized. Hall of Famer Mitch Richmond. Yeah, House was traumatized when this happened. We did not have a podcast back then either. Yeah, you got Mitch Richmond at the tail end of his prime and gave up somebody who immediately became one of the best five players in the league in Sacramento.

Was rejuvenated. That didn't work out. I don't know how it could be possible that there was more marijuana available in Washington than there was in Sacramento. But somehow that's what happened. Number five. It's amazing that, see, what's crazy about these trades

is that they worked out terribly for one of the two teams. Here's another one. Kyrie for Isaiah Thomas and a bunch of other stuff. At the time, Isaiah Thomas, second team All-NBA. Kyrie had not made the All-NBA that season, but was a year removed from finals and being a hero. And that one worked out terribly, obviously. Now we're going

these are honorable mention. Dave DeBuscher for Walt Bellamy. Ended up winning some Knicks titles. Walt Bellamy. 20,000 points for him. Ray Allen for GP and Derek Mason. House, who threw in a first round pick in that trade?

Milwaukee or Seattle? I know it was Milwaukee. Milwaukee threw in a first pick in that trade. Seriously? It's one of the worst trades of the century. Unbelievable. Ray Allen and a first pick for almost washed up Gary Payton, who left within four months.

Adrian Dantley for Mark Aguirre. Famous trade. Two 20-point scores. That could have been number one. That was a pretty good one. Well, Aguirre was never really the same after the trade, which is why I downloaded it. TMAC for Steve Francis.

That was a good one. Steve Francis, not as good as it seemed like he was in the moment, but at the time was considered a star. Bernard King for Michael Ray Richardson. Talk about a lot of cocaine in this trade. Basketball tragedy. A lot of stuff going on. The Knicks actually signed Bernard King.

So this is a pseudo trade because they signed him. And then Michael Ray was the compensation. And he went to Golden State, which was cocaine central for the NBA at that point. Needless to say, did not go well for Michael Ray. Did not go well for him at all. Allen Iverson for Chauncey Billups, both on the other side of the mountain at that point. But a really good trade for Denver. They almost made the finals in 09.

And then the last one, Dominique Wilkins for Danny Manning. Danny Manning goes to Atlanta and leaves. Dominique goes to the Clippers and leaves. Nobody wins. Unless there's one I'm missing, those are all the star for star trades. This one has a chance to be one of the best ones ever. Maybe the best. I mean, it depends on what Kawhi Leonard is.

It's like we talked about earlier, Bill. If Kawhi turns into that third best player in the league and Duros continues making improvements, maybe it's a deal that's mutually beneficial for both sides, but it could easily end up Kawhi Leonard's not the same guy. And this ranks down the list if he leaves in 12 months

and goes to the Lakers or the Clippers. But it certainly has a chance to go up there. I'm surprised he had Kyrie for IT at five ahead of some of the other ones well I was just IT was the second team on NBA

took a team to Eastern Finals like in the moment was a top ten guy it's amazing how few there are this century really a lot of those are from

the 80s and 90s yeah House have you guys already covered I have one question yeah for this trade maybe you guys have already covered this yeah the thing that i'm most interested in most excited about

has me sitting on the edge of my seat and will be this way all the way up until christmas i hope there's a christmas present what is drake capable of that's what i can't wait to see we didn't talk because if if kawaii is even if we get 85 85% of the Kawhi that he was before last year, what does a Drake recruitment look like? What does Drake trying to show Kawhi what Toronto has, all of Toronto's positive attributes? Jalen Rose has been on the record many times on this podcast extolling the virtues of the T-Dot. Yep. What is Drake capable of?

That's my question. So we talked about this a little bit earlier, not the Drake part, but the Toronto fantastic basketball city. Only one basketball team in the entire country. And they are completely overboard with the Raptors to the point that there were a couple of LeBron games there when he took over and the crowd just died and got that shining Danny and the shining look to them. The combo of the love from the crowd, Musai Uehari, who's like a genuinely great guy and definitely there's something magnetic about him. And then Drake. Maybe they pull him back in. Maybe Drake. Do we know any?

Do we see anywhere in Kawhi's social media that he's a Drake fan? What if he's already a Drake fan? And Drake pulls him under his wing and shows him the Drake life? I think Kawhi listens to Yacht Rock. I think this is if Michael McDonald didn't, Michael McDonald would probably be a better bet for him.

Maybe, yeah, maybe Drake signs Uncle Dennis' son to a recording contract. Nah, we're talking, my friend. I just found out that LeBron's buddy, Randy, you know how he's, he's got that group from high school. Yeah. Randy is his childhood friend.

And Randy worked for the calves and the heat. Oh really? And now works for the Lakers. Do tell. Yeah. That's I just, I, I,

you know, you take care of the family members and the players are happy. So maybe, uh, maybe Toronto takes care of a couple of Kauai people. Uncle Dennis. I would never discount the Drake factor here. Interesting. I have not heard the Drake is the key to this trade take yet.

You never know. That's the house take. All right. So we went through all those greatest star trades, which in every case worked out badly for one of the two teams house. Who does this work out badly for Toronto? I'm on that side. The reason his leg isn't a hundred percent and he comes back and he's cautious and he's not ready to push the limit.

Now, the thing that makes this so intriguing is we've never seen Kawhi at any moment in his entire career dog it. He only plays one way. That's ham. That's hard as a mother. He's always going hard. And, you know, I expect the same thing.

But if he's tapping the brakes for any reason because of his leg and he can't psychologically let himself commit to his basketball game, then it's easy for me to see him just biding his time, using next year to reintegrate into competitive basketball and then jump over to the Lakers next summer. That would be the scenario under which it would go bad for Toronto. Here's the thing, though. If he does that and I'm the Lakers, I'm not going near him. There's too many good free agents next year.

Guess who's a free agent next year? Clay fucking Thompson. Jimmy Butler as well. I love Clay Thompson and the Lakers, and I do not think that can be discounted, especially if they win another title. His dad, still and the Lakers. And I do not think that can be discounted, especially if they win another title. His dad still with the Lakers, just the LA grew up here.

Perfect sidekick for LeBron. They had him, they had other things. And if they keep all these young dudes at that point, you keep all the young dudes, like you're riding with the young dudes. You want to add the one veteran. Like what if ingram and heart and what if lonzo's good what if this team what if this lakers team is like good and there's a nucleus here and you don't really need to add the take the flyer on kawaii you just add you just want to get somebody sturdy who you can trust so

he's like oh we get clay thompson here's what to do. He's going to make four threes a game. He's going to play defense. He's not going to need the ball. He's an adult. We don't have to deal with Uncle Dennis. Like, we don't have to worry if his legs hurt and all this stuff. Let's just get Klay Thompson and we're good.

Funny thing is, is before this, all of the Uncle Dennis Kawhi camp stuff happened, it's like you would have talked about Kawhi and Klay as two of the most low-maintenance superstars in the league. Right. Now the conversation has changed. Klay's the low-maintenance guy and Kawhi is one of the most high-maintenance stars. All of a sudden, it's funny how that flipped in just a couple of months, really. You know why that

flipped? Because Kawhi feuded with his teammates, didn't go to playoff games, acted super weird, demanded a trade, and only wanted to go to one team. A lot of reasons. I'm still stunned by it. I still think we're filling in a lot of blanks. All Kawhi did was get hurt, get misdiagnosed,

lose trust in his medical procedure, find a doctor he trusted, and then try to get himself healthy. That's the story. Those are the unvarnished facts from my point of view. I'm not sure he got misdiagnosed. I'm not ready to paint a brush. I'm not sure he got misdiagnosed.

I'm not sure he got misdiagnosed. The story I heard... He thinks so. The story I heard is that he shopped around for the opinion that he liked, which a lot of guys do. I think he saw seven doctors. The seventh one was like, yeah, you have this. I'm curious about it.

I don't think he was shopping for an opinion he liked. He was shopping for the opinion that would get to the source of his injury and help him get on a protocol to get healthy again. If it was that he was shopping for the opinion he liked, why do you think he would be doing that, Bill? Because he didn't trust Spurs. KOC's just nodding in ten. But he gave the Spurs the right of first refusal

if their medical team had diagnosed the injury and prescribed a remedy that had him back on the basketball court in a way that he felt comfortable, I think he'd still be a Spur. I think he would have signed that extension. Listen, if KOC just stopped writing columns and doing podcasts and we try to help them out and we introduced them to six doctors and they're like, you're fine. You just have the flu. And KFC is like, it's worse than the flu. And he just kept going to doctors. And the seventh guy was like, he doesn't have the flu. Actually, we think he might have Lyme's disease, but we're not sure. Oh no. And then it's like, KFC is like, you guys lied to me. I have Lyme's disease. It's like like but the other six doctors didn't say you had lyme's disease like i don't this is kind of what it feels like by the way i'd still make you wear a kiss that's okay the world needs you they need

working i'd want to work verno need you with the emotional chaos verno now i mean the it's almost stupid to talk about this kawaii, like what happened, what didn't happen, because I still don't understand what happened. And I think the Spurs are just flabbergasted by this whole thing. Like, what the fuck? You were injured, we tried to get you help, and then you abandoned us. When the definitive story comes out,

and I don't know who's going to write it, I'm rooting for you, KOC. I can't wait. This is palace intrigue of the highest order. Under the, you know, happening to a franchise that is NBA royalty. So this is going to be a great story whenever all the detail comes out.

I am with you, House. I think this works out badly for Toronto if I had to pick one of the two teams. I still think there's a chance this is a great trade for both teams. I think so, too. Yeah, I'm rooting for that. I'm just saying history says it will not be a great trade for one of these two teams. I agree with you.

I'm also rooting for the shrimp cocktail that I'm about to go have. Thank you very much for having me on. I have some shrimp to go eat. Give us a British Open pick really quick. Oh, I have five guys of interest. I don't like to just give one because it's impossible. I like this player, Alex Noren. I talked about him on this week's Shack House.

I like Sergio Garcia, outstanding British Open record, the Open Championship, the people like to call it. I like Brooks Koepka for his down-the-middle stingers. I like the Italian Francisco Molinari. And there's one guy who I like that you may have heard of. His first name is Eldrick. His last name is Wood. That's terrible.

And everybody calls him by the Tiger. That's terrible. That's my pick for this year's 2018 Open Championship. When's the next Shack House? Are you doing one over the weekend or right after the tournament? Tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow afternoon after the first round. We're going to be up.

Chef Shackford and I giving you all the ins and outs, what we've observed. And I can't wait to tell everybody how many bets I've already lost. Great. Thanks for coming on, House. Good times.

Thanks, boys. Bye. All right, we're going to call my dad. One thing we haven't talked about yet, and I can't believe it because we're over an hour at this point. Toronto can flip Kawhi if this doesn't work out for whatever reason, whether they can flip him in two weeks if he doesn't want to come.

They can flip him two weeks, two months into the season or right near the February trade deadline. Let's say Philly's doing really well. And let's say Kawhi, and let's say, how about this? Let's say the Lakers are doing really well. And maybe it's heading to a point where the Lakers are saying like, you know what? We might not need Kawhi. We actually like what we have, but now Kawhi has no options. Could you flip Kawhi for the Tobias Harris and the two lottery picks that Clippers just made and a couple other things? Could you flip him to Philly?

If Philly's like, ah, we're ready to make a run, Simmons and Bede. He might be a better asset in February. And Toronto really likes Shea Gildas Alexander. Oh, is that true? Yeah, I heard about that prior to the draft. They really liked Gildas-Alexander, who the Clippers traded for from Charlotte with the 11th pick.

So it's interesting that maybe if you do flip Kawhi at some point, it would be to a Western Conference team when the Spurs, I've heard, would rather have avoided trading Kawhi to a Western Conference team. It would be funny if that happens in December, January, or February if it's not working out for Toronto the way you would hope it did with Kawhi Leonard. We've seen this happen last year too.

And this is something that happens every year in the NBA. People get really happy with their team after Summer League and it becomes much harder to trade. You talk yourself into, ah, well, now that we added this guy, this guy, and this guy, and oh, well, he looked great in Summer League. And oh, I really liked that draft pick. He came in and worked out with us and he looks awesome.

And it's just hard to make a trade. And we saw it last year with Cleveland where Kyrie's on the table and there's really no suitors whatsoever other than Denver and Phoenix sniffed around and he shut that down. And then there was nobody left because everybody else is like, no, we're good.

We have our team. So you can make a case once we get to February, Portland situation goes sideways. Who knows? There's seven teams that their situations might go sideways. And if they wanted to dump Kawhi,

they're going to be able to. It's a fantastic angle to think about because so much of the conversation with the Raptors is like, oh, he's an upgrade over derosen you know he's happy he's increases their odds at the finals for this one year at least maybe you can convince him to stay you know you know the whole country behind him and everything else but the reality is like or maybe they trade him for more than what they gave up months from now during the season uh because look like with derosen and lowry it wasn't going to work towards

a title and in masai ujiri all indications you know i've heard he's always like title or busts like that's kind of the mindset uh and it's a long journey to that and maybe that journey is trading your franchise star getting a better trade asset and then flipping that asset for maybe younger pieces so maybe a little bit of ret retooling phase to make your rise happen in 2020 or 2021 while still having a solid overall team. Opens the door with the Celtics too a little bit because I don't think there's any way they could have traded Hayward

after what happened last season. But if you played for four months and he looked good and the Celtics are saying, all right, thanks, buddy. We'll see you later. And they traded him in a protected pick or whatever the hell would end up getting Kawhi. It was a Kawhi fire sale. Yeah, you would need to feel good about Kawhi re-signing, though, to do that.

With Hayward locked up long term. You'd feel good about maybe creating the cap space with Hayward for some other things you want to do. Who knows? I don't know what's going to happen, but I think it's important to note that he might be a bigger asset in four months or five months or seven months than he is now. And that's why I thought the Spurs, all along I thought the Spurs could drag this out into the training camp or into the season

because if Kawhi was forced to play or forced to return, he could restore his value, right? He could come back and be the same exact guy he was pre-injury and become a more sought-after asset when you know how you can value him. And maybe Toronto is a team that benefits from that or not. I mean, Kawhi could always come back and be a total shell of his former

self and you're just playing out the season. The Spurs were clearly in FTG mode, which is the acronym for fuck this guy. They were like, fuck this guy. And the other thing is for the Spurs, the acronym for fuck this guy. They were like, fuck this guy. And the other thing is for the Spurs, that asset might go down if he

doesn't come back, if he's not working. DeMar DeRozan, two months from now, might be shooting for the moon compared to some of the stuff that actually would have been available. So they cashed in. All right, we're going to call my dad. Let's quickly talk about a couple of ringer podcasts like the Dave Chang Show.

Dave Chang's like a real host now. I don't know if you've listened to this. He went from being afraid to tape the intros and being unable to do transitions and making us edit it stuff. Now he just bangs it out. It's ridiculous. He's like Anderson Cooper. Listen to Dave Chang Show.

He had a two-parter with Alan Yang, and he has Lena Waithe coming up. That's going to be great. You know who else is a pro? The man, the myth, the legend, Larry Wilmore. He's coming on a rewatchable soon, by the way. I don't know which one it is, but he's coming on. Black on the Air, one of our longer-running podcasts. A Tour de Force.

And then last one I wanted to mention quickly, On Shuffle, hosted by Micah Peters, which is our music podcast that we put a lot of TLC into. Latest podcast, How a Song Becomes a Viral Hit. But if you love music and you love the ins and outs of the whole music industry, this is a really good podcast. Check it out. On Shuffle. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, wherever. Check them out. The Ringer Podcast Network. All

right. We're going to talk to my dad. All right. My dad's on the line. Last but not least, you're here with us. Last but not least? What does that mean? Well, we had a couple other guests. You're here with me and KOC. You did not want Kawhi Leonard on the Celtics. KOC advanced a theory that I had been thinking about too. I'm giving you credit because you mentioned it and it crystallized some information I heard. I feel like we might have the same information, that the reason the Celtics were being standoffish with Marcus Smart

was because the only scenario where they were going to acquire Kawhi was to put Marcus Smart in a sign and trade with the Morris expiring and some of the future picks. None of the other dudes were on the table. Would you have traded Marcus Smart, Marcus Morris, and the Kings pick, and Yaba Selly for Kawhi, who you think is a quitter. Would you have done that? Never in a million years. You'd have to take my arm off and put me in that much pain to let me even think about it.

The guy's not, he's a one-year rental. I don't understand why teams are even interested. You know, I saw the Toronto trade today, and I mean, Toronto, I can kind of understand because DeRozan just seems to implode in the playoffs, and maybe they're just tired of seeing that act, and he's going to take this huge chance that he can convince Leonard to resign after one year,

which I just don't see happening. I think he's headed to L.A. and then Toronto's going to be rebuilding. I was kind of happy to see Toronto make the trade because I think they're one of our competitors in the East. And I'm not convinced Leonard, first of all, I can't imagine he's excited about this trade. And secondly, who knows if he's healthy yet? And what's his motivation going to be? So I was kind of happy to see that trade because Toronto is a good regular season team.

But they gave up an awful lot. And if I'm San Antonio, I'm really happy. I mean, I have a guy that was going to walk who quit on the team last year, who knew what he would be like this year if they forced him to stay. And they're getting DeRozan, who at least during the regular season is one of the top shooting guards in the league. So I thought they did very well. You were always afraid of DeRozan. You were always afraid of DeRozan. He killed us.

You know, again, we didn't play him in the playoffs this year, obviously. But in the regular season, boy, was he good against us. Something happened in the playoffs. It's like he lost his confidence each year. Well, I think LeBron sapped it from him. Yeah, I think you're probably right.

But against us, he had a terrific amount of confidence against us. And I'm glad we didn't play him in the playoffs because I don't think he was afraid of the Celtics. So, yeah, would I have ever wanted Kyrie on my team? Never, never, never. And I'm glad that he's headed to Toronto as opposed to right now going to the Lakers. So for the Celtics offseason, I think Milwaukee did not get better.

You agree? Well, I have one. I'm going to quibble a little bit. You know, you and I have always liked Brook Lopez. He signed for $3 million. We couldn't have signed the guy for $3 million and put him out there. He's got a three-point shot.

He's a hustler. He's a good teammate. I would have thrown that guy on our team. I think Milwaukee's better with him. Burl Lopez helps Milwaukee, but other than that, I mean, it's a minimal upgrade. It helps a little bit, though, I think.

Ilya Sova to whatever Parker's upside. Parker's upside to settling for Ilya Sova is a loss, I think, for them. That's a loss, definitely. I thought Parker played pretty well in spurts against us. Yeah, the home games in Milwaukee, I thought he was good. I would, KOC liked that contract way more than I did as a flyer. It's basically a $20 million flyer. I love it for Chicago. It's funny. Bucks fans hate Jabari Barker. Like they wanted him gone.

It seems like they're not unhappy that the number two pick in the draft from 2014 is. Don't you think that's really strange? Like you said, the number two pick in the draft and, and they seem like they, they, they brought the lift car up to his house and they drove him they brought the Lyft car up to his house and they drove him out of town. Well, I think they drafted him second. He was supposed to be the future of the franchise.

And then Giannis just blossoms into the most likely next MVP that we have. And then Jabari gets hurt. It never really seemed like they could get them going. The history of the NBA says that's the kind of guy you'd want to trade for or sign. Like a top three lottery pick who for whatever reason did not become an asset for the team he was on

and the second team usually benefits. Well, with one caveat, he's had ACL on the same knee twice. Right. You just always wonder about the strength of the knee. Still a good gamble. I just didn't like the team that he went to. You just wonder about the strength of the knee. Still a good gamble. I just didn't like the team that he went to. Good gamble.

You put him and Levine together with marketing. Figure it out. I like everything Chicago has done. Me too. Well, you like offensive players. Offense doesn't win championships unless you're Golden State. I don't think Milwaukee got better. I don't, offense doesn't win championships unless you're Golden State. The, I don't think Milwaukee got better. I don't think.

They may not have gotten better, but did we get better? Well, hold on. Let's go through it. If we're healthy, we're better. I don't think Philly got better. I actually think that the guy they signed from Minnesota who backed out on them, who would have helped them and potentially even played some crunch time for them. And now it's basically. Which guy backed out?

Wait, how do you pronounce his name? Belica? Bejelica? Yeah. Bejelica? I didn't know he backed out. The guy from Minnesota.

Yeah. He stayed in Europe. He was the guy. He was like a better version of Eliasova basically. I liked him. When the Celtics played in Minnesota this year, that guy killed it. Yeah,

he did. He lit it up. It's funny how he played only this year, that guy killed it. Yeah, he did. He lit it up. It's funny how he played only like 10, 15 minutes per game the whole season. Yeah, I didn't know he backed out. I was sorry to see Philly had signed him, actually. By the way, the two people who judge all their scouting takes by how they did

against the Celtics were Doc Rivers and my dad. My dad would assign Byron Mullins to a $5 million deal based on that one Charlotte game. But I don't think that's fair. But I will say that if I see a guy

in person over the years, I've been pretty accurate in my first impressions. It's pretty fair. No, I will give you that. I agree with that. What were you going to say, KFC?

I was going to say, I think Boston and Philly get better just from the inherent fact that their younger players should improve. Tatum should get better. Brown should get better. And Bede should get better.

Simmons should. All those young guys should experience some level of improvement. And then for Boston, they get Gordon Hayward back after he snapped his leg five minutes into the season. And Kyrie, obviously, will turn. I agree with you. Hayward is the guy. And you wanted Brooke Lopez, but we got Baines back.

And I don't know if it makes sense to have Baines and Lopez. Somebody's unhappy in that scenario. But a lot of times they would start the game, many games, Baines as center and Horford at power forward. And then Baines would come out and they'd move Horford. I would have liked to have seen Lopez come in for Baines. I think Horford's much more effective in most matchups at power forward. KOC, you know why my dad is so respectful of Brooke Lopez?

Because of all the Nets games we watched those two years when Brooke Lopez was like killing our pick. Getting doubled in these random stupid games in February. You get 30 points, 12 rebounds, they come from behind. Brooke's suddenly adding a three-pointer. Oh my God. Brooke Lopez was like, we were the only ones who were like, wow, Brooke Lopez is just murdering our pick.

Nobody else cared. I think there's one night you and I were watching NBA TV because the Nets were losing. And then Brooke Lopez made a three-point shot at the buzzer. One by one point. I think we're the only two people watching. I screamed that night, but I'd like him on my team. There was another one where he got like an alley-oop off an inbounds pass and scored. We had all these Nets losses.

We were like, ah. And that was the difference with Ben Simmons and Jalen Brown, although maybe that'll work out in the end. Yeah, so when you look at the East, I think Philly did not get better, but the youth will get better. Boston did not get better, but they have Hayward coming back, and the youth will get better. And nobody around them got better.

It's not just Hayward. Irving didn't play in the playoffs. True. People forget that. I mean, we took Cleveland to a seventh game without Irving also. Dad, what about the Wizards with Dwight Howard? Every time I hear Joe House on your podcast, I really think inside he's screaming.

Dwight Howard is on my team. I can't believe it. How can I root for him? And Austin Rivers? I think he's going to implode that team, and he'll get another coach fired. That coach is on the hot seat anyway, but I'm glad they signed him.

I mean, I like what Toronto did. I like that Washington signed Dwight Howard. I like that Milwaukee really didn't get better because I think Parker made them better and now he's not there anymore. I like our position if we're healthy. Indiana got better. Tyreek Evans, Doug

McDermott, younger guys, Sabonis and Turner. I agree with you. They did get better. I'm not sure if they're ready to compete if we're healthy at a championship level but they got better I would have rather like they added

a bunch of bench guys basically I would have rather have seen if I was in the end I would have rather tried to get one big chess piece

with the money they spent on McDermott was like seven a year O'Quinn was four and a half Tyreek was what one for twelve

twelve twelve and a half maybe yeah I thinkinn was four and a half. Tyreek was what? One for? 12, 12, 12 and a half maybe. Yeah, I think. 12.4 million. I would have gone out on somebody. I mean, they could next summer. Next summer, they only have $32 million in guaranteed money, up to 45 inclusive total.

Kyle O'Quinn, another one that, when you're watching league pass, always seems better than what his reputation is. I always liked him in the next, I mean, he didn't get as many minutes league pass always seems better than what his reputation is. I always liked him on the Knicks. He didn't get as many minutes as I thought he would have gotten. I would have liked him on our team. Yeah, so Boston,

Philly winners. I think San Antonio, obviously winner. And then one other winner for us is that Kings pick. There's now a good team in the West, another team that beat the hell out of the Kings. Yet again, Dad, you get to watch a shitty Western or Eastern Conference team and root against them

game after game. Congratulations. How much fun do we have doing it? I mean, it goes all the way back to Len Bias year when we were rooting against Seattle. Yeah. We get to root every night. Unfortunately, it's a West Coast team,

so I'm up at 1 o'clock trying to hope that they're losing. But this is the year the new odds go into effect for the lottery, right? Yeah. Ping pong balls. KFC doesn't like the draft, though. Oh. Yeah, it's not a great draft. Are there one or two really good studs?

They're not really. Yeah, R.J. Barrett is the top prospect, the Canadian prospect. He's like a 6'8 wing. He's's at duke yeah who would you compare him to um well let's let's compare him right now to the guy who's just traded today demar de rosen but like a six eight demar de rosen with defense and the passing ability right like he can create off the dribble he can pass like de rosen did last year but he can also defend. It's really about what level the jumper reaches. Right now, he needs to extend his range

like any teenager does, but he does a lot of things well on the floor, and he can really create and get to the line, draw fouls, finish at the rim. There'll be another dude that materializes, though. This always happens. There's always a second guy that blossoms. Can I take a quick opportunity to say something about KFC?

Yeah. Last time I saw him, he was trying to find a seat at the Garden for a game. He didn't have a selected seat. And now he's a Hollywood star. He's in videos. People are shouting out his name at the Las Vegas Summer League. You're proud of him. This is emotional.

I think he's probably ready for a big raise. He's become a ringer star. He's one of your favorite reads. Yes, one of my favorite reads. Thank you, Dr. Bill. Forget Zach Lowe. I know Reed. Yeah.

Oh, boy. You still read Zach Glow we still love Zach Glow I still like Zach Glow yeah

no that was a good monologue yeah he's Dr. Bill's proud of you he remembers you when you were you were this 25 year old kid

going to Celtic Games living in Brockton sitting next to me was his dad when you were up there with Jimmy Kimmel now he's now he's he's due for a raise with Jimmy Kimmel now he's now he's

he's due for a raise I already said it now he's hanging out with nephew time to renegotiate now he's now he's with nephew Kyle

on Friday nights darkroom nephew Kyle no don't tell me that does he does he have to listen to that tape message

on the car machine oh no what's the story maybe after the fight my dad's coming in hot today we have to wait a full year we're going to tell that story on the anniversary of the Masters next year

I tell that story to everybody you're not supposed to tell people? No. All my family knows about it. Kyle, are you single? It's unclear. It's unclear. Oh, boy.

Do they have that as a Facebook status? Do people still use Facebook? It's called it's complicated on Facebook. Oh, that's what it is? I'll probably be single, I guess. Oh, jeez. Come on. Oh, no.

Unbelievable. Do you want to say goodbye to Manny Machado before we go, Dad? Well, you're going to get to see him play, it sounds like, aren't you? So that should be enjoyable. It's nice to have him out of the American League. Nice to have him out of the American League. Nice to have him out of the American League. He always hits well against us. But, you know, I'm not surprised.

Magic Johnson seems to have his handprint and a lot of big signings, doesn't he? That's a good place for him to go. And they may even have a chance to re-sign him. Before you go, we talked about the greatest star for star trades, which were not allowed in NBA history. I'm just going to give you the list quick and you can tell me what you think the best one was. Kid for Marbury, DJ for Westfall, Sean Kemp for Vin Baker, C-Web for Richmond, Kyrie for Isaiah Thomas, The Busher for Bellamy, Allen and a first for GP, Dantley for Aguirre, T-Mac for Francis, Bernard for Michael Ray,

Iverson for Billups, Dominique for Danny Manning. And then today Kawhi for DeRozan. What do you think was the biggest of those traits? You were alive for all of them. I think Kawhi for, for Thomas, for me, actually. Kyrie for Tom, for Isaiah, you mean? No, for Kyrie, for Isaiah, me, actually. Kyrie for Isaiah, you mean? No, Kyrie for Isaiah Thompson. Just because Isaiah had such a tremendous, tremendous year

and nobody knew he was going to come back that hurt. Yeah. And, I mean, he was a superstar for that year before he got hurt in the playoffs, before the playoffs. And Kyrie is obviously a superstar you rattled off all the others too quickly and I'm old I couldn't really keep up with you so I'm going to go with Kyrie and Isaiah and then with Isaiah like Dr. Bill remember remember that night in the garden the 53 points for Isaiah Thomas yeah I don't remember ever being in a louder arena than that night. I agree with you.

That was as loud as it gets. And when I remember that scene and that being there, I feel badly again for Isaiah. Just the way the whole thing went down. He's signing a $2 million contract. It's just so sad to have watched how that progressed or transpired. But that night, boy, it was a lucky night to be there. And it's got to at least factor in a little bit with this Kawhi thing.

I don't know if he'll ever admit it. We talked about all the different opinions. We made jokes about it. But I think the Isaiah Thomas thing was a real factor. I think everybody in the league saw that and said, wow, that guy just lost. I don't think he would have gotten $100 million. But I think, what did Kyle Lowry sign for? Like three for 87? Yeah.

I think that was realistic for him. Around 30 per. Yeah. I think he could have gotten like three for 80. Short-term deal. Big money deal. I do too. Yeah.

And now he's $2 million and he's trying, and he's not even, I don't even think he's going to start on this team. So I don't know how he regains his value or some kind of value to get a long-term contract. It's just a shame. He's got to do what he did for the Kings. And as KOC said, that 63 point,

that night was special. You know, him on Denver, I did really like that fit for him. If he can get his body back, that's a great team for him. I agree with you. I think they're a good team. They have a starter, though, in front of them, don't they? Yeah, they have Jamal Murray and Gary Harris for a start ahead of them. So it's like maybe Isaiah doesn't even close,

or maybe you go offense-defense and have him in there for half the possession. But that's hard with the timeouts and all that. It's hard to get a big contract if that's going to be your 82-game situation. He needs to be a star within a six-man role, like he was with Sacramento starting half the games. If he does that and he stays healthy, who knows? He gets paid something nice next summer.

Yeah, I agree. If he stays healthy, right. I'm rooting for him. If he has it back and they're spreading the floor with him and Jokic and Jamal Murray and a couple of the swing men they have. Yeah, they could play a three-guard lineup. Or put Harris out there. That actually would be really fun to watch him with some of those weapons.

A lot of offense. My bet would be that I don't know if that injury comes back i don't like the history of it i don't his size and you know we always talked about the athleticism that he had was so unique for how for his size and even losing 10 of that is such a difference for him. Yeah, that 10% is the difference of him going into the trees and doing his special things under the basket. He really wasn't able to do that last year. That's the thing that gets overlooked with Isaiah Thomas. He is an elite athlete.

To be his height, 5'9", 5'10", and be able to score and get to the rim like he does and absorb contact and draw fouls and actually finish through contact, it's because he's an elite athlete for his size. You don't have to dunk to be an elite athlete. Hopefully he can be 85%, 90% because then he can still be a good six-man for the foreseeable future if he gets back to that level and stays healthy. Beyond what you just said, the fearlessness that he had,

I don't know if that comes back. I think he's always got it. What was scary about watching him when he was on your team was it was just like, it always felt like he was going to get hurt. He's this little guy flying into the lane and then you go careening into the basket,

support of the cameraman. It always felt like there was a shelf life. I think that's who IT is. As a guy, he's always been that guy. When he came out of the draft, his saying that he has, stay paranoid. Because there's somebody

always trying to take your job in the league, someone always coming for it. You can never become complacent. And I don't see Isaiah ever losing that chip on his shoulder. He's always had it.

Whether he's 50% of what he was or 75% or 90%, I think he's always going to have that mentality. Yeah. The fearlessness, though, of going under the basket when you have a hip

that you're kind of worried about in the back of your mind it reminds me of the when uh rondo got hurt in the playoffs and um i don't think he ever was the same i don't think you know we we used to talk about how great he was going through the basket fearlessly uh getting fouled or making great passes or shooting. And he was never the same after that injury. He certainly didn't like getting fouled. We're going to wrap it up, but before we go, do you have a British Open bandwagon that you're jumping on? Or is it the one I'm going to probably be able to guess?

Well, Tiger really likes these forces. You're so predictable. How thinks he has a chance? You know, I just want to see him win again. And he does.

This is a weird course from what I've been reading this morning. It's like they're going to be using irons most of the week, it looks like. It kind of changes things, don't you think? My pick is Tommy Fleetwood. I think he's ready. I've been on his bandwagon since

we saw him at the Masters and I just think he's ready and it's on his territory. We'll see. We'll see what happens. Good luck with Tiger. Dad, thanks for coming on. Always a pleasure.

All right. KOC, this was fun. Thanks for making the time. Nephew Kyle, if there's other fish in the sea, you'll be fine. We'll get through this. All right. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to check them out at ziprecruiter.com. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to check them out at ZipRecruiter.com

slash BS. Thanks to Gillette. Remember, Gillette offers a variety of shaving products for every guy regardless of his personal style, skin needs, or budget. Whether you want three blades

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delivered to your door. Find Gillette 5 at Gillette on demand dot com. Subscribe today. Don't forget to go is delivered to your door. Find Gillette 5 at GilletteOnDemand.com. Subscribe today. Don't forget to go to TheRinger.com for all of our Kawhi Leonard takes,

pieces, information, everything we got going there. TheRinger.com, also the greatest trailers. Back later in the week with more. Thanks to House. Thanks to my dad. Thanks to Shea Serrano.

Thanks to Kevin O'Connor. See you Friday. On the way.