The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Kyrie Trade Saga, CFB, MLB, and 'Thrones' With Kevin O'Connor and Mallory Rubin (Ep. 254)

Episode Date: September 1, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons gives his thoughts and theories on the bizarre Kyrie/Isaiah trade saga and why he still believes Kyrie Irving's ceiling is underrated (5:05), then brings on The Ringer's Kevin O'Connor to discuss Friday's press conference in Boston and the league's reaction to the deal (26:05). Then, The Ringer's Mallory Rubin previews the 2017 college football season and September's MLB pennant race before indulging Bill's primitive Game of Thrones thoughts (while longing for her days with The Maester, Jason Concepcion) (55:18). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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we might have some more football news down the road. Who knows? But check that out. And if you missed the last Binge Mode Game of Thrones episode, Mallory Rubin, Jason Concepcion, they slowly lost their minds as the 67 episodes over, I think they did over two and a half, three months. And they lost their minds during season seven.

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We're debating what the next Binge Mode is gonna be. Happy to take your suggestions at themailbagattheringer.com. And by the way, if you want to send NFL questions for my column this season, just send them to themailbagattheringer.com. Coming up, I'm going to talk about the Kyrie trade some additional thoughts I've had after a week of coverage and reading all the stuff about it then we're going to call Kevin O'Connor who just came

from the Kyrie press conference in Boston then we're going to wrap it up with Mallory Rubin who I just mentioned earlier but I'm grabbing her to talk about baseball thrones college football we wanted to have Shea Serrano on today but but he is driving back to Houston. We're going to have him on next week,

and we're going to talk about everything that happened there, just a flat-out catastrophe. And he wrote about it for TheRinger.com today, which you should read. We are going to have a plan for how to mobilize some of the people that love our site and love listen to this podcast and love Shea that we will unveil next week. And Shea's going to come on, and we're going to talk about that. Thoughts and prayers to everybody in Houston and more to come on that front next week on the BS Podcast. Right now, the Rock and Roll Hall of Famers, Pearl Jam.

All right, we're going to call Kevin O'Connor in a second. Wanted to mention very quickly, I am guest hosting an hour of Yacht Rock on SiriusXM this weekend. I think the first airing of it goes Sunday at noon, but I picked my 12 favorite Yacht Rock songs and laid down some rules for how I think Yacht Rock should go. So if you like Yacht Rock and you're home Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday, they'll be rerunning that a bunch of times.

Anyway, we did a Kyrie Irving trade podcast, an emergency version of it, on Tuesday night, which we ran on the BS podcast. We had a bunch of ringer people here. It was hilarious, the timing of it, that it worked out. Every NBA writer we had was here. And since then, the trade has evolved into, it was all kinds of drama. There was a point where it almost seemed like the trade wasn't going to happen. Then it finally happened. The Celtics had to give up another second round pick. I had some thoughts I wanted to get down because there's some things that haven't come out.

There's some misconceptions about it. And I just wanted to bang out a whole bunch of stuff first. So the trade goes down Tuesday night. And I didn't tweet this on Wednesday, but a source who I trust called me on Wednesday morning and said, the trade might be voided. The Cavs are freaking out about Isaiah's hip. Seems strange. They just made the trade. They hadn't had the physical yet. Why would they be

freaking out about Isaiah's hip? Did some research, got Kevin O'Connor involved. We talked to some people who might know from Isaiah's side what might have happened, what was true, what wasn't true. And everybody told us the hip's going to be fine. He's planning on being ready to start the season. We didn't hear anything that made us think that this either was getting floated out or we didn't understand the reasonings behind it. I ended up not tweeting anything about it. And I wish I had because two days later it comes out, the Cavs had the physical, they're freaking bad about Isaiah's hip and they want another pick.

It was exactly what I'd heard two days ago or before the, the physical. That's pretty strange. So I'm thinking back to what might've happened. I did some more recon on it. I don't know exactly what happened with the Cavs and what made them flip. Here's my theory. Kevin Love and Isaiah Thomas are both represented by XL. They had the same, same agent basically. And Isaiah was obviously blindsided by that trade. They had the same agent, basically. And Isaiah was obviously blindsided by that trade.

They didn't know about it until the 24 hours before the trade actually happened. My guess is that Isaiah's agent told Kevin Love, wow, this is crazy. Isaiah might not even be able to start the season. I can't believe they traded for him. Kevin Love tells Ty Lue. Ty Lue tells LeBron. LeBron freaks out.

Dan Gilbert then freaks out. And now the entire Cavs organization freaks out. This is the scenario that makes the most sense to me because we definitely, we've heard since that LeBron was definitely upset when he found out Isaiah wasn't going to be ready to start the season because this puts an immense amount of pressure on LeBron now. If they don't have Isaiah to start the year,

now you have Derrick Rose as potentially the starting point guard. They don't really have another established go-to scorer except for Kevin Love, who's been put on ice the last couple of years. And I can understand why LeBron would freak out because this is probably his last year in Cleveland. He's in year 15 of his career. This trade, if Isaiah doesn't come back all the way healthy, this trade made Cleveland worse.

The best asset they got from it is the Brooklyn pick, which can't be realized until summer 2018 when LeBron might leave. So I think that played into part of this. And this goes to the second part of what we learned over the last week, which is when this trade was made, it seemed like a lot for the Celtics to give up. And now you come to find out they don't know if Isaiah is going to be ready to start the season. Isaiah is claiming his hip's fine or he's going to be fine, that he's going to be ready. I think the Celtics were not sure of that. Danny Ainge basically admitted as much in the press conference right after the trade. He admitted that the hip played some factor into it.

And I think that's why they ended up giving up the Brooklyn pick. I think if you really look at this trade now, the Brooklyn pick seemed like too much along with Isaiah Thomas and Jay Crowder and Ante Zizic, the 20 year old center who might end up being something. But I think what happened was they were pretty upfront with the Cavs from the get-go. Hey, Isaiah's hip. Like, we don't know.

We don't know when he's coming back. He's probably not gonna be ready for the start of the season. He might come back within a month. He might not come back until the All-Star break. We don't know. And then that turned into, well, and then the Brooklyn pick ends up being the result of that. I think if Isaiah was 100% healthy,

in my opinion, the trade would have been Isaiah, Jay Crowder, the Memphis pick that they have, which becomes unprotected in like 2021, and maybe the Celtics own first round pick, maybe not. But I think that would have been enough because if you know you're getting 100 games out of Isaiah, that's a different trade. I think for the Celtics, it's been really interesting to see people, to see, read, hear people think that they overpaid for this trade because here's what they did.

Here's the thinking behind it. They know Isaiah's not going to be ready for the season. They're not sure about his hip. They're looking at a guy who's 5'7", 5'8", who the way he plays is endearingly reckless, takes a ton of punishment, takes a ton of hard falls. He's somebody that I watched for two and a half years and was terrified every time he went careening into the basket

because he's banging off guys who are a foot taller than him and he's going flying into the basket support. It always seemed like a candidate to break his wrist or nail his hip or whatever. And I think there was real fear with the Celtics with his size and the punishment that he had already taken combined with now this hip injury. This isn't somebody you're going to invest

$25 to $30 million in per year. And yet, because he's enough of a star and because it's so hard to get stars and because teams are going to have cap space next year, somebody would have, you know, somebody will make a run at him and offer him money if he can prove that he's healthy second half of the year. So they're looking at it like we're probably losing this guy in a year anyway. They're trading

one potentially injury plagued year of Isaiah. They're trading Drake Crowder, who's immediately expendable because they got Jalen Brown, who's going to play more. They have Jason Tatum. They got the Morris twin. They have bodies. Jay Crowder was going to lose minutes anyway. Zizic, you know, is a piece they probably didn't want to give up. And then the Brooklyn pick, which I've heard, you know, their analytics team ran a bunch of models on it and determined that there's a probability this pick goes between five and nine. Because you have teams in the East. We talked about this on the pod a week ago. You have Atlanta.

You have Chicago. You have the Knicks potentially of Indiana. Brooklyn, the start of last year and the end of last year was a pretty good team. It was when Jeremy Lin, I have pretty good meaning a pretty good bad team, but as soon as Jeremy Lin got hurt and they just had the worst point guards in the league, their team fell apart. But near the end, any Celtics fan who was monitoring Brooklyn and watching what was happening with that pick or worried about what was happening with that pick was terrified because Brooklyn would not stop winning. Now they lost Brooke Lopez. They did add D'Angelo Russell and Alan Crabb. Their coach has been there for a full year. They have no incentive

to tank whatsoever. And if you look at what the over-unders were that came out last week, I think they were 27 and a half or 28 and a half wins. And they were tied with a bunch of teams, but there were like three or four teams below them. So I think the Celtics look at this like, all right, the risk for us is that maybe Isaiah comes back earlier than we think, and he's a hundred percent healthy. And maybe this Brooklyn pick ends up winning the lottery. But on the flip side, maybe the Brooklyn pick is sixth, seventh, eighth. Maybe Isaiah is not healthy the whole year. Instead, we get Kyrie, who's 25, who's only going to get better. This is another thing that was frustrating for me to read.

I've been in the corner of everybody should try to trade for Kyrie. You've heard on the pod even before I knew my Celtics, my favorite team was going to actually get him. I assumed it was going to be Phoenix or somebody like that, but I just thought he is now wildly underrated. This is somebody that's played in huge, huge, huge, huge games on the biggest possible stages and done really well. It's somebody who made one of the biggest shots on the road

in the history of basketball, 2016 Game 7. It's somebody that Golden State could not guard last year. They simply couldn't guard him. This is the best defensive team in the league. They could not guard him. Avery Bradley, who's the best defensive guard at his position, who had done reasonably well against Kyrie off and on over the course

of the last couple of years, could not guard him in the playoffs. Game four, LeBron gets 4,000 the first half. The Celtics are going to improbably maybe tie this series and send it back to Boston for game five. And Kyrie scores like 33 points in 11 minutes or something. I mean, he was completely unstoppable. He's one of the seven or eight most unguardable guys in the league. And I think if the Celtics are looking at this, he's 25. He was in LeBron's shadow. He was not given a lot of the playmaking opportunities that maybe he could have had on a different team. Now LeBron brings his own

set of advantages, obviously, but four coaches on the Cavs. I don't think anybody watched that Cavs offense and said it had a shitload of movement. It was a lot of one-on-one slashing kicks, spacing, stuff like that. I think with Brad Stevens, the one thing he's proven is that whoever the guy is that's going to be in his system, the guy's going to get good shots. He's going to get open looks. There's going to be all kinds of movement. They're going to looks they're not usually used to getting. Everybody who's played for Stevens, whether it's Celtics, guys from Butler, the Eastern Conference All-Stars, they love playing in his offense. And I think they looked at it like they think Kyrie has room to grow and be even greater than he is. He doesn't shoot a lot of threes, which is something like the Celtics make everyone shoot threes. Kelly Olenek, Jared Sollinger, it doesn't matter.

Marcus Smart was hoisting him up. Kyrie's actually good at shooting threes. They're going to want Kyrie to shoot as many threes as Damian Lillard or Steph Curry shoots. They're going to want him shooting eight, nine threes a game. They think he can be a 30point scorer in this system. He's certainly a go-to guy. If you're looking at who do you want in a game seven, just from an unstoppable scorer standpoint, Durant, LeBron, Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Kawhi maybe, and Kyrie, those would be the eight. I don't think anybody else has proven it on the biggest stages yet. So they're looking at this like, this guy's just better than Isaiah.

He's younger than Isaiah. He's somebody that has room to get better. Whereas I think we'd all agree, as much as I love Isaiah, the three months he played last year is as good as he's going to be. Isaiah, you know, in the Wizard series, again, I love the guy I'll defend him to death, but the wizard series like against wall and, uh, and Beal was pretty eyeopening. They couldn't figure out who to play him on defense. Kyrie's not a stud on defense, but the Isaiah thing was a real problem. And I think Washington should have beaten Boston

that series. I said at the time they should have have won game two, be almost a 12 footer. I thought game seven, I thought Scott Brooks just coached a bad game. I thought they had a better team. I thought Boston was lucky to win that series. I think the Celtics themselves think they were lucky to win that series. They got housed by Cleveland the next round.

And, you know, Kyrie, just the upside of what he brings to the table is just better. So you get a healthy lead score. The cap stability for the next two years cannot be underrated. Now they know exactly how much they're spending on Horford, Hayward, Kyrie, all the young guys. The only thing they have up for grabs now is the Marcus Smart contract extension, which they have some leverage because he got fatter last year as the year went along. I think he put on 15 pounds.

Supposedly he's in amazing shape right now in the summer, but the jury is still out. So maybe you get him for four years, 45, whatever, you lock down the salary. They made the Cavaliers worse. That's got to be considered an attractive part of this trade. The Cavaliers are worse than they were last year. That Brooklyn pick, unless LeBron says, I'm staying, flip that pick for a star, which I don't think he will because he's going to keep his options open. And that's been his MO for the whole time. That Brooklyn pick doesn't help them next year.

So they turn Kyrie into Isaiah, who we have no idea when he started in the year, and Jay Crowder, who it's one of the things that's hilarious when it's your own team to hear people talking about it, to players that you watch day in and day out. And then you hear people who obviously hadn't seen the thing. And people are like, well, who's going to guard LeBron now that Jay Crowder's gone? It's like Jay Crowder couldn't guard LeBron. Jay Crowder got worse defensively last year. He was a B minus C plus defensively last year. He was not that good. I'm telling you, I watched the games. He really slipped. He's still a good help defender. Not great, but his one-on-one stay in front of somebody defense against the best small forwards in the league was not good. And his know, he is three point shooting was as good as it's been last year.

All the shots were wide open. I don't think he shot even 40%. So I think he's a seventh man. I like Jay Crowder, but, um, in terms of who's going to stop LeBron and Durant and Paul George and all those guys next year, they need Jalen Brown to step up. The guy was the third pick in the draft. So I think that was a big part of the trade too. The fact that they hurt Cleveland, the team they have now is much better positioned offensively. It's worse defensively because more, more because of Avery Bradley losing him than anything. But they still have assets to move. And that's the part. This team is still a work in progress. They left the spot open.

They need like a stretch four type, better Patrick Patterson, who wasn't available in free agency, but in February might be. They have a lot of assets. They have their own first round pick the next couple of years. They have the Memphis pick. They have that great Lakers Sixers pick, which if it's two through five, they get in the draft this year. And I think they're poised to make another move. And by the way, Anthony Davis, if that happens for whatever reason, they're ready.

If New Orleans falls apart, if he decides he needs to go to a contender, whatever, they're ready. They're ready to move in with whatever it takes. And Kyrie is a big selling point for that. Zach Lowe wrote about that this week. It's the piece that leads to the next piece that is such an important part of these trades. Now it's like, hey, Anthony Davis, come here. We have Kyrie and Gordon Hayward. Come on, be the third piece.

We can win the title. Just harder to do, especially if you have Isaiah in a contract year when you have no idea what his contract's going to be worth. So it was a cold, cold, cold, cold trade. It really was. It was cold. What they did to Isaiah, that was about as cold of a trade as you've seen, especially because he got hurt and then got hurt even worse because he kept playing because he's trying to be a great Celtic and then they dumped him. So that part's rough, but it's a trade that makes a lot of sense. I cannot fathom how somebody would say they overpaid. That's crazy to me. Everyone who was bitching that they didn't trade the Brooklyn pick for Paul

George, who was never available and never really on the table for them in a significant way. They were never told, I hate to sound like a Celtics defender, but this part's true. They were never told, all right,

Paul George's move and make your best offer. They were under the assumption that once they signed Gordon Hayward, they would be able to make a move for Paul George. But no, they just traded him out of the conference to OKC. They screwed over the Lakers. They screwed over the Celtics, screwed over a couple other teams too. People did not have a chance to make their best offers. The Jimmy Butler thing is a more defensible, why didn't they make that trade for Jimmy Butler thing? Should they have given up the 2018 Brooklyn pick for him? Maybe. Would that have deterred Gordon Hayward from coming? I don't know. I think their attitude was get Gordon Hayward, then try to get Paul George, and they screwed up.

And they played it wrong. And then now they salvaged it here with Kyrie, who, FYI, I've said this before, I'll say it again, if you watched the finals last year, that was two on two. It was Kyrie and LeBron versus Curry and Durant. And the supporting cast were there too. But if that was two on two, Golden State had a better supporting cast. Durant was slightly supporting cast were there too. But if that was two on two, Golden State had a better supporting cast. Durant was slightly better than everybody else and that's why

Golden State won. But fascinating trade. We're going to take a quick break to talk about Draft Kings. The NFL is returning next week. Oh yeah. You know what that means? One week fantasy football on Draft Kings. They are hosting a $100,000 contest that is totally free to enter. Only there's one big wrinkle this year. If you draft the perfect lineup, you can win $1 billion. Not to sound like Dr. Evil, but it's true. $1 billion. between public contests with big cash prizes or private contests where you compete against a group of friends or my personal favorite, single entry contests where each person can only enter one lineup. They have beginner and casual contests where you'll play against people of similar skill level as well. The best part about DraftKings,

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Watch all your favorite teams on NFL Sunday Ticket. The Ringer's Kevin O'Connor is on the line. He just went to the Kyrie trade press conference that Gordon Hayward also attended. They revealed their numbers. Kyrie's number 11, which worries me a little. There's kind of a checkered history with number 11. Evan Turner might've been the most successful number 11, other than Charlie Scott. How about Marcus Banks? No, no. My first favorite player on the Celtics was Charlie Scott in the mid seventies. They won the 76 title with him. And I went to the game the next year when he broke his leg and was never the same.

And ever since then, Bob McAdoo wore it, a whole bunch of people. So I was a little worried about that. But what was the mood at that press conference? Very, very positive. I would say most questions were positive. Most responses were positive. And I got a little deep, too, with Kyrie starting off talking about life and meaning beyond basketball. Yeah. I think the way Kevin Durant in part one of the podcast that I did with him laid it out,

I thought was the smartest thing I'd heard anybody say. I was actually jealous. I didn I'd heard anybody say. I was actually jealous. I didn't think of the point. He was just basically like, Kyrie's like me. He just wants to play basketball. He's been in a circus for the last three years. He didn't want to go through the drama of is LeBron staying or not? What's LeBron? Who's getting traded? He just didn't want to do it. He wanted a stable situation. All the indications that I've gotten and all the sources that I've talked to is that once Kyrie knew Boston was on the table, that's where he wanted to go. I've heard that Phoenix actually would have put Josh Jackson on the table. They'll

deny it to the death now, but Bledsoe and Josh Jackson for Kyrie, Phoenix would have done, but Kyrie, you're going to make a trade like that. You want to know that the guy's going to stay there long term, and Kyrie wouldn't say that to Phoenix or Denver. Milwaukee is another one. I don't think he wanted to play for those teams. Once he knew Boston was in play, that's where he wanted to go. What have you heard on that? Well, I do think Phoenix definitely would have put Josh Jackson on the block eventually for that trade. But I think with Kyrie, you're probably right about the connection with the Celtics. And I think perhaps his dad playing at BU and his dad trying out for the Celtics had a little bit to do with that. After the press conference, there was a moment where Kyrie kind of went straight over to his dad.

And they embraced for and chatted for a little bit and gave him his jersey. And they were just kind of laughing about it, like Irving on the back of the jersey, on the jersey with the number 11 that his dad wore at BU. So I think that might have had a little bit of do with it, but I think a lot of it had to do with Brad Stevens, who is probably a better NBA coach combined than the four coaches Kyrie Irving had in Cleveland. Byron Scott, Mike Brown, David Blatt, and Ty Lue. I think Ty Lue can be a good coach, but he's a young coach right now,

and it remains to be seen on what level he is. So in that sense, I think for Kyrie, a lot of it had to do with Brad, and a lot of it had to do with history, too, and his ability to build his legacy in Boston. Yeah, and I do think that was a big... That's the biggest thing that's happened the last three years with the Celtics is Stevens, the reputation he has and, and then the organization itself. You know, I asked KD about this on the podcast last week. It's one of the biggest things that's changed in his generation is that these guys, instead of in the old days, it was just like, I want to play in a big city.

They didn't even think about the owner. They didn't think about the coach. And now you see, you know, I think they're much more educated about what's going on in the league, maybe from being online more, from being better read, being on Twitter, just seeing what the vibes of different fan bases are like. And the Celtics are a great example. This is a team that could not lure free agents up until five years ago. It was really hard. Even pulling off the KG trade and convincing them to come to Boston was a big deal.

Now it's like, these guys know. Brad Stevens is a great coach. That's a team that spends money. The fans are good. And it was a big advantage for them with Kyrie. I do think he wanted to be a part of it. I heard he met with Stevens this week, and his head was spinning. And this is, you know, I keep reading about the Celtics overpaid too much.

I talked about this earlier. Kyrie, he's a flawed superstar, all that stuff. KOC, explain what Kyrie could be in the Brad Stevens offense. So I would say for Kyrie Irving, first let me preface my point with, I feel like a lot of analysis in general, not necessarily with Kyrie, but in general, looks backwards rather than projecting forwards. And for Kyrie, there's been a lot of what he was in Cleveland. There's a lot of focus on what he was the first three years of his career in Cleveland before LeBron got there.

And to me, that's kind of irrelevant at that point. If you look at the production of young point guards across the league in this entire century, most guys aren't good earlier in their career. Chris Paul is one of the few exceptions who could actually lead his team to the playoffs. So with Kyrie, the guy he's kind of developed into with LeBron James on the court is really that first, that score first point guard. However, with that said, I would say there is more upside for him to develop more playmaking tendencies, as well as maintaining his efficiency as a scorer, because there were situations when LeBron James

was off the floor, um, where Kyrie maintained his scoring efficiency and had higher scoring volume. I forget the number exactly. It was something like 32 points per game per 36 minutes with super efficiency. So with Kyrie, I think we're going to see him plugged into a new situation. Looking forward, we're looking at what Isaiah Thomas was in Boston. We're going to see Kyrie Irving use more off-ball like Isaiah was, maybe used off-screens a little bit. I'm going to get him, I think, like Brad Stevens likes to call it,

a live dribble where the player gives it up and then gets it right back and they're going towards the rim or they're creating against the rotating defense. So you're going to see Kyrie in different situations that you didn't see him in in Cleveland. So I think the way his game will evolve will be within the context of what we saw from Isaiah Thomas the last couple years in Boston. So in that sense, some of the production that he's had in the past, yes, good and bad, you can look at, but you also need to think about him within his new situation. And that goes for

any player that changes situations across the league league because the way a coach runs their system and the way they the things they ask of a player can drastically affect their performance and their production and their development Kyrie's only 25 obviously I agree and this was I think the big appeal for training for Kyrie and the argument I was making the last six weeks is I don't know if he's been in the best possible situation for him yet, which is a crazy thing to say, because he played with somebody that I think is the third best player of all time right now. The Cavs offensively were really good last year. They were spectacular at times and the efficiency numbers were there. And when they went, did the whole space the floor, everybody go one-on-one, somebody come over, set a pick thing. It worked. But at the same time, there's another level that

he can go offensively. It was a very primitive, but effective offense that we're running. It was a primitive modern offense, if that makes sense, where you knew what they were going to do every time, but their players were so skilled that it didn't matter. And I think in this offense, as you said, just putting him in the way the Celtics use Isaiah is going to be effective. The biggest thing for me, you pointed this out in one of your pieces, he didn't shoot enough threes in Cleveland. The guy's like a really good three-point shooter and should be shooting eight to nine threes a game.

I think he only shot like three and a half during the season last year, average that. Don't you think he shoots eight for the Celtics now? He's going to be jacking them up, right? Yeah, I would think his volume, especially shooting off the catch, will be higher. The stat, I believe I have... Okay, Irving has shot 44.5% on spot-up threes since 2014.

So during the LeBron era, 44.5% on spot-up threes. That's a ridiculous number. And he's going to get a lot more of those playing off-ball with the Celtics. Do you think that part of this, like, let's say Isaiah was healthy. And they knew they were getting one great healthy year from Isaiah. What do you think this trade would have been? Because the Brooklyn pick's not on the table at that point, as I discussed earlier. I think it's Isaiah Crowder, maybe the Memphis pick.

Would they have even given up that much? What do you think is the max they would have given up with a healthy Isaiah? I think it's very possible that the nets pick still would have been there isaiah would have been out and isaiah maybe could have been flipped somewhere else maybe you'd expand on the trade and make it a three-way because i still think cleveland needed and wanted that nets pick i don't think a deal would get done otherwise because they were thinking long term with this trade there was a report today i believe from, from Jason Lord from The Athletic that Isaiah could be out until February.

So in that sense, Cleveland's not necessarily thinking about the regular season. Sure, they do want to push and make a playoff run, but the deal was made for Jay Crowder with three years left, only $21 million total, and then the Nets pick. That's why the deal was made. And for Isaiah, I think he was just really the bonus in this deal. That's what sources have told me. I think logically it makes sense based off the injury that he has.

So I think for Cleveland, they would need that Nets pick bill. And regardless, that would have to be there. So the deal would have been structured a little bit differently. Yeah, so maybe I think you're right. Maybe they flip Isaiah to a third party. The problem is Isaiah is not passing any physical. And I think that was one of the reasons the Brooklyn picks in this trade in the first place, because they said to them, Isaiah is hurt. Like he, we don't know when he's coming back. Um, sad, really the upside,

the upside. Yeah, it is sad, especially cause he was given his heart and soul to, uh, to help the team try to win last year. You talked about people looking forward, not backward. It's bizarre to me that people think Kyrie is a finished product. Like we should know better at this point, especially with somebody who's 25 and especially with somebody who has been in a lot of different basketball situations without any real stability yet. I keep hearing Kyrie's not a franchise guy. Well, in your opinion, who is a franchise guy? I think people talk about, well, that guy, he can't lead a franchise to the title if he's your best player.

It's like, well, I don't really think anybody can. I think LeBron is a franchise guy and Durant, but other than that, do you feel, and maybe Curry, because Curry did it as the best player on a team before Durant did there. How many guys do you think can actually lead a team to 50 plus wins as the quote unquote best guy with not a lot of great pieces around Harden's there. Kawhi. Anybody else? You can't even say Westbrook. They only won 45 games last year.

There's really, really not many. Might not even fill up one hand when you're counting. There's not many. I think you're kind of referencing towards some of the quotes from the NBA execs in Howard Beck's article yesterday, which I thought was a great perspective on Kyrie. Two of the guys mentioned in there, Paul George and Jimmy Butlerler let's think about what they were during their age 24 season uh jimmy butler that year averaged 13 points per game he had yet to really kind of explode and have his coming out party like he did in 2014-15 season paul george he was already emerging as a superstar but he was coming off that major leg injury there was a lot of uncertainty regarding his future and how he would bounce back from that and granted he's better

now than he was before the injury so that's a good thing but at the point is is that age 24 which Kyrie just finished his age 24 season last year these guys got better both Paul George and Jimmy Butler and Kyrie Irving Cantu he just turned 25 in March. So that's really the fascinating thing. I think a lot of it with Kyrie in particular and other guys that really excel early in their careers is that we're so oversaturated with seeing them. I mean, Kyrie's already been with three NBA finals. He's already played in the Olympics. Team USA, second highest selling shoe.

There's so much Kyrie out there that it feels like we've known him for years because we have but he's still only 25 years old and there's still room for growth in a new situation so that that's the fascinating aspect to me when it comes to I think really the way a lot of the players are perceived because so much of what we assume is just the case I mean with who they are these guys aren't necessarily done getting better. Even when you're 26, 27, Isaiah, wasn't the same guy he was a couple of years ago. He's improved as well. So I think, I think with these players, you do need to project forward within the context of going into, and that can be really hard to do. I think, and it's hard for NBA

people. It's hard for us from the outside, but I think ruling out possible development from Kyrie or even Jay Crowder going to Cleveland, or even Isaiah, if he manages to stay healthy, we're underselling how these guys progress and how hard they work off the court and the opportunities that they're given. And I think 25, 26, 27 is when somebody becomes the player. Those are usually the peak years. You look at anybody. Dirk won the MVP in 2006.

I'm going to say he was 26, 27 in that range. Hayward just had his best season, right? He was 27. It usually seems like right around 27 is when you are who you are. Kyrie's not there yet. I couldn't believe. I really liked the Howard Beck article. I tweeted about it yesterday and I should have been more clear. Like I just couldn't believe some of the quotes from the executives in there. I liked the way he laid out the piece.

I thought it was smart. But the idea that, I think there were an exact quote in there, it was like, you know, Paul George and Jimmy Butler are significantly better than Kyrie or whatever he said. I got to be honest, I would rather have Kyrie than Paul George or Jimmy Butler. And maybe I'm in the minority on that, but I'm just looking at the way the league operates these days. It's offense, offense, offense.

The best offense wins the title now. And when I'm in the finals, I need to have two guys who can get a shot and score whenever they want when the defense gets really good or I'm not winning the title. I already know Kyrie is one of those guys. Now it's up to the Celtics to figure out is the team good enough with what they have right now? Which the

answer is obviously no. It's good enough to contend. I don't think it's good enough to beat the Warriors, but now they're one piece away from really potentially being the Warriors, whether that's Anthony Davis or whether that's just adding one more awesome piece. And just by sheer force of the amount of weapons you have, maybe that's the way to do it. But you're not going to do it unless you have somebody like Kyrie. And to me, that's why this trade wasn't a risk. It was a risk to keep Isaiah

and pay him $30 million a year. It was a risk to keep your fingers crossed that the Brooklyn pick was going to be in the top four again. Kyrie's not a risk. He just played in three straight finals. The guy could not be guarded by the Warriors. I don't, I don't see any risk in that. If you had to rank, who would you rather have on your team

the next three years? Kyrie Butler, George, how would you rank them? Just out of curiosity, probably Kyrie, George Butler. Uh, and I would say that the primary reason for Kyrie over George is the, the proof of the playoff production that we've seen Kyrie at the highest level against elite defenders against an elite team in the Warriors. That's what would give him the edge for me over Paul George. But George George is a tremendous player and obviously a far, far, far superior defender. But I think Kyrie, his offensive production at the highest level in the playoffs would give him a slight edge. And Jamie Butler, I'd rank him last simply because of the, in the half court, I'm not sure he's really quite as efficient as you would like in playoff situations,

but obviously a terrific player. Couldn't go wrong with any of those three guys. By the way, I'm not sure about Paul George either because I'm not sure how good offensively he is. I thought he took a step back last year. Even when you look back at those Indiana-Miami series when he was terrific as a two-way player, it's not like he was ever this lights-out offensive force.

He's solid. I think if he's your second-best guy, you have a chance to contend. But if you're talking about Westbrook and Paul George in the Western finals, going toe to toe with Durant and Curry, those guys just don't have the same firepower. And I don't, I don't think Paul George is on that level. And the stats back it up as a half court player. He's just not, not that good. And I think, I kind of think he is who he is at this point. Don't you? I think the value to him is the two-way player part of it.

Well, I think with paul george i i i talked to an nba executive i maybe it was in january or february about george and i was like why does this guy as talented as he is not score 28 points per game i mean he's a terrific scorer um and the main reason why is to your point he doesn't get to the rim he doesn't draw a lot of fouls and that's one of the primary ingredients it takes to be an efficient high volume scorer to be able to score against a set defense is the ability to get to the rim and draw fouls and that's where george falls short

and it does kind of put him a peg below a lot of those other superstars but with that said i right he's absolutely you know one of he could be one of your stars on your team, but I'm not sure he is necessarily the guy. No, I agree with you. And I think I look at Kyrie as Curry to me is the model and they're completely different players. But the Warriors, I look at the 67 win team, the team that won the first title that they won two years before Durant got there. And that team was built around

a really good defensive identity and Steph and Clay shooting threes, but really Steph and the spacing that he created for everybody and just his unparalleled ability to score in any situation and get any shot he wanted. He was never a giant playmaker. I don't think, did he ever get over six assists a game? Probably not. He's kind of the modern version of a point card. He's not the Chris Paul version of the point card. And I think that's how the Celtics envision Kyrie as somebody who is just a transcended score and somebody who is, can potentially be so good in the right offense that it will open up everything for everybody else. That would be the best case scenario for this trade. I see, you know, I, I see the cases that will he play hard for a hundred

games in a row? Is he ready to be the man? Is he ready to carry, you know, the team's tired, two guys are hurt. It's the fifth, the fifth road game in a, in an eight day road trip. Is he ready to just be like, guys, I got you tonight. I'm gonna score 48. I don't know if he's that guy, but you know what? That's part of the risk of this trade. The Celtics think he can be, and it's up to him whether he can prove it. I do think he's going to have a chip on his shoulder. I think he, I think he knows, you know, what people are saying. I think all these guys do and that the consensus out there is this is risky. He's a flawed superstar. He's not somebody who can carry his own team. I think that's a good thing for the Celtics that that stuff's out there. Don't you? For sure. And I think, up Curry is interesting because he's another one of those guys.

Age 24, nobody could have expected him to be the guy he is today. I think Curry, to be fair, he has averaged over six assists five years in a row. 6.9, 8.5, 7.7, 6.7, 6.6. But with that said, he's not a... What did he average in the 2015 year, though? I'm going to look it up now. That was 6.7. That was the year they won the final, 7.7.

The year they lost, 6.7. And then last year was 6.6. So do we think Kyrie could get to... Do we think he can get to seven assists? Sure, of course. Of course. I think he absolutely can. He wasn't the point guard in Cleveland. I remember for an article I wrote maybe a couple of months ago, might it might have even been the pre finals preview that I wrote about. Chris Ryan, editor at The Ringer, said to me, he's like, in a way, LeBron is kind of the point guard and kairi is really the forward in their offense um just because lebron was the primary playmaker and kairi wasn't uh so the opportunity hasn't been there and you

know one of the criticisms is criticisms of kairi is i think fairly accurate uh that he's he's maybe not a good playmaker anyway he might just max out as an average above average playmaker but the thing is is considering his scoring potency i think that's all right um kairi does have weaknesses on the defensive end of the floor uh some of the backdoor cuts he allows just the pure laziness is really inexcusable um that we've seen from him in the playoffs the past couple years david griffin has alluded to it before uh at the sloan sports analytics conference how when kairi kairi needs to defend to reach his potential again though again it always comes back to new situation new environment Cleveland's poor defense is a systematic issue

just just in general it was really something that plagued their entire team so maybe Kyrie will continue to be a problem defensively in Boston that is an absolute possibility where he becomes a major weakness on that end all the talk about Isaiah Thomas' weak defense is fair. It also applies to Kyrie. But it's also possible in a new system that he starts defending just like he did towards the end of the finals in 2015. It's a variable and a risk, but I think it's something that can't be overlooked.

I apologize to Steph Curry. I was remembering his playoff per game stat. He was 6.4 assists in the playoffs, 5.2 and 6.2 the last three years. Or 6.4, 5.2, 6.7 the last three years. But in the regular season, his assists were

higher than I remember. 8.5 in 2014 is legit. But I thought Zach made a great point in his piece that he wrote this week that the one pass Kyrie doesn't have yet that he has to add is that drives,

whip it across the court into the corner pass. Yeah, yep. Which, don't you think Stevens just teaches him how to do that in two weeks? I don't feel like that's a hard pass to learn. Do you? I think so much of passing is instinctual, though. I think just having that feel and being able to see and not only just being able to see it, but accurately deliver the pass. You can see the guy in the corner, but you need to be able to deliver a bullet for for him to to get the shot off cleanly otherwise you're putting him in a tough spot so i should quit

on my dream of kairi being able to make that pass you're telling me hey look it could happen again it's only 25 i think this season i think that would be a little bit much to ask uh expecting kairi to transform into a terrific playmaker even for Isaiah Thomas from the player the Celtics first got to the guy that they've traded to Cleveland he's gotten better as a passer as well I think progress will happen it's just a matter of what level he reaches Kyrie if you're listening KFC

doesn't think you can make that pass do you think do you think the Celtics gave up too much no I think it's a good deal for both teams that I wrote about too much? No. I think it's a good deal for both teams. I wrote about that last week. I think for both teams it makes perfect sense. For the Celtics, they get their potential cornerstone talent

that makes them a championship contender, only 25 years old. And for the Cleveland Cavaliers, they get granted the Nets pick. Could end up 7th best odds. That could be all it takes to get one of those top three picks. And I think that's better than maybe anything else that was on the table i think jay crowder's contract allows them to stay competitive this year also if once lebron leaves still can have another good quality player alongside their core this is which i still like as a prospect and isaiah i mean it remains to be seen how healthy how healthy he'll be this season, but no denying his upside.

So for Cleveland, tremendous upside with this deal. And for Boston, we've already talked about Kyrie and the upside he presents. Last question. Which team are you the maddest at for screwing up and not getting Kyrie? Because my list is about five deep. Hmm. You know, I would say there's mixed reports with Milwaukee.

Zach Lowe reported earlier this week or last week that they didn't put a first round pick on the table. Gambo Phoenix suns radio personality. He did. He said last month that they did have the first round pick on the table. I would say if I'm Milwaukee, I would have been putting Jabari Parker out there too. If Kari were willing to resign again, that's, that's the big variable. If he were willing to resign, again, that's the big variable.

If he were willing to resign, I'd be going all in if I were Milwaukee. He would be the type of piece you're missing. Yeah, I mean, I think Milwaukee, Denver, and Phoenix had the same problem. I think they went halfway down the road, and Kyrie and his side were probably like, don't bother, we won't resign there if you trade for him. I think once the Boston blood was in the water, that's what they wanted. But I will say, I think the Knicks is the team I'm the maddest at.

I think the Knicks could have made this trade happen. Poor Zingas. If they had given up Frankie Nicotine and Carmelo and their 2018 first, I find it hard to believe Cleveland wouldn't have done that. Would Carmelo have waived his no trade, though? Would he want to go to Cleveland? Didn't he already waive it for the Cavs? There is reports that he only wants to go to Houston now, though.

Well, he's not going to Houston. I hate to break it to Carmelo, but he's not going there. They don't have the person to give back for him. So stuck in New York for another year then. I've said at the time

and I believe it now, if the Knicks, all they had left after they made trades were Kyrie and Porzingis, great. Let's go to war. That's my team.

You know, it was a rare chance for them to get somebody that they probably shouldn't have been able to get. And that's how I feel about a lot of these teams. Kyrie shouldn't have been available. The best trades that happen are usually, for the team that gets the guy, are usually when the guy probably shouldn't have been available.

Like James Harden. James Harden going to Houston. James Harden. It's when circumstance makes the guy available and not because it's a smart trade. James Harden's another great example. Chris Paul, for what the Clippers actually gave up for Chris Paul, very rarely is a blue, blue, blue chipper on the table.

And I'm just surprised. I'm with you. Like if Milwaukee could have gotten him for Brogdon, Middleton, and Parker, done. Call it in. I got Giannis and Kyrie, unless he tipped them off and said he wasn't going to resign there.

And I don't know if I would have blamed him on that one either. I think to go to the Celtics, to play with Horford, to play with Hayward, to be with Brad Stevens, to be with the, in the situation with Brown and Tatum and more lottery picks coming, it was the most appealing situation. They're already a contender and he gets to play Cleveland in the conference finals next year. So, uh, KOC, this was a pleasure as always. Are you going on ringer NBA show next week? I believe either next week or the week after we back one of those Tuesdays,

but I'm excited to talk with Chris Vernon again. I miss him. Uh, all right. Appreciate it. Thank you. Talk to you soon. Cool. Thanks Bill. Have a good day. One more break to talk about our friends at Squarespace. They make it easy to build beautiful websites, whether you're planning to start a business, change careers, or launch a creative project. Now that 2017 is rolling, you should absolutely be tackling your next move with Squarespace, widely used by all kinds of people and businesses. They give you the ability to create an online platform with which you can make your latest goals into a reality. You can even get a unique domain

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Again, that's squarespace.com. Offer code BS. All right. Deputy editor of The Ringer, Mally Rubin is here. Hello. AKA the mother of dragons. This is your time of year. Football, baseball playoffs.

All of it. Thrones just ended. It did. We'll save Thrones for the tail end. So if people didn't see it yet, we'll go. We'll circle back. College football, you know, I don't really care. Why should I care this year? Well, if you don't care in general about college

football, this is a hard year to get you to care because as Zach Graham wrote about for the ringer today, the quote unquote Cinderella's this year are teams like Notre Dame and Miami and Georgia. Like it's the blue bloods. It's the blue bloods. Alabama, Florida State are playing in the showcase game of opening weekend. It's one versus three. They're the basically along with Ohio State favorites for the national championship game. USC is ranked in the top five. Like we're talking about the classic traditional powers. Even Texas is exciting again because of Tom Herman taking over as coach. So it's a throwback year. It's a classic year.

It feels like it might be. It's hard to identify too many like true, true sleepers who look like they could disrupt the order. I think some people are high on BYU. Some people out there think that a team like maybe like South Florida could make a run. But it's hard to crack the playoff if you don't have the schedule and the teams that look the best this year and that play in the toughest conferences happen to be the alabamas and florida states of the world what does taylor swift's look what made you do song have to do with any of this because espn was all of a sudden blasting it with their college football. That was fast.

Yeah, that was fast. That happened quickly. Maybe the wrong choice of a song because it was getting lambasted. Yeah, that was like instant backlash and also instant heavy leaning in on the promotion side. Tough choice. I guess young people like pop music, though. That's, I guess, the idea.

I'm like 90 years old, so I still I listen to Bob Dylan, as you know. It's like, give me some CCR on my college football promos. Old school, the 70s. And then I'm there. I'm like 90 years old. So I still, I listened to Bob Dylan as you know, it's like, give me some CCR on my college football promos. Old school, the 70s. And then I'm there. I'm there. Who are the three most exciting college football players I should care about this year? Other than Sam Darnold of USC, who everybody.

Well, he's definitely one of the three. He's in the three. I know about him. He's incredible to watch. It's fun when they're good. Yeah. I think certainly like living in LA, it's fun when they're good. Yeah, I think certainly like living in L.A. it's interesting when UCLA and USC feel relevant,

but just in general college football is like a more interesting proposition. He stole the Chosen Rosen's corner. Tough stretch for Chosen Rosen. I think he bounces back this year in a big way. I do. Just get ready for it ahead of the draft. Like Rosen is an elite NFL prospect. I still believe that for sure

um Darnold is really really really good but I think it's important that people and by people specifically I mean Jets fans remember yeah that he has not even played one full college football season like he did not win the starting job out of camp last year he took over a few games into the season they were basically unbeatable after that point he was incredible but he has very very little experience so it feels like a lot of hype really quickly to say you're gonna lead usc back to the promised land you're gonna be the number one pick he also could still go back to school like he redshirted he's not out of eligibility that'd be a smart move if the jets got the first pick in in a vacuum yes there's a very real history of usc quarterbacks who were presumptive number one picks and then it backfired i mean liner barkley like they all they went back and plummeted so what is does oj playing in this at all he's

free now oh god what happens if oj just shows up at a game hadn't considered the oj wrinkle i think how can you not he's gonna be spending his time in florida right no not spending his time so sam darnold's one who are the other two he's one uh basically anybody on alabama is worth watching okay i am really hoping for a big bounce back year from calvin ridley alab. He had an incredible freshman season. Great name. Incredible. He regressed in sort of puzzling fashion last year.

You know, the Jalen Hurts offense was a bit of a rocky ride, obviously. You know what? I'm going to switch my Alabama pick right here. Spur of the moment. Pivot. Kiffin's gone. Who knows what the offense will look like. OJ Howard's gone.

Let's get back to the ground and pound. Bo Scarborough. Bo Scarborough. Now, Alabama has like literally a handful of five-star running back recruits, any of whom would start and contend for the Heisman on basically any team in the country. Scarborough is the one who you might recall seeing in a picture or on your TV screen who literally looks like a starting NFL defensive end. Yeah. Like he's that big.

He's got biceps that are the size of a normal person's thigh. Yeah. And he struggled to stay healthy. He suffered a leg injury in the championship game. If he can stay healthy, he can have a better season than Derrick Henry had there. He's that gifted. I do also think Ridley will bounce back and be extremely effective. Two great names, Bo Scarborough and Calvin Ridley. It's like we would make those up in the Alabama sports movie.

I'm going to give you one that is a recency bias pick and not actually what I believe is a top three pick, but I'm doing this both for you and for Amanda Dobbins. Okay. J.K. Dobbins, Ohio State freshman running back, had a huge debut last night. Ohio State actually already opened the season. They were losing to Indiana for an alarming amount of time and then came back and won big. And Dobbins looked electric, like that kind of fun spark plug.

And J.T. Barrett is another person who is eligible for this kind of conversation I mean he's a Heisman front runner their quarterback people were surprised that he went back to school so that offense is going to be extremely potent and Ohio State is a genuine national championship contender so everyone on that team is fun but Dobbins looks like he could be really fun and he was also he was was doing that thing where late in the game, garbage time touchdowns were like clearly there for the taking. And he's like, you know, scooting up next to the coaches to try to get in, try to get some points. He probably took himself in DraftKings.

I love it. I love it. All right. That's a good preview. That was enough for me. Watch Alabama-Florida State. Treat yourself to a few moments of Alabama-Florida State. It's Saturday, right?

That could be, yes. Saturday, it's the night game. So, you know, five-ish out here. That could be a preview of the championship game. I'm going to be at a soccer tournament with my daughter. Maybe she'll be asleep from being tired from the two games. And I can put the game on. Baseball, September 1st.

Yeah. The Angels are making trades. The Angels are in it. Mike Trout might be in a playoff series. I'm very unhappy about this as an Oriole fan, obviously, because the Angels... Well, you're lingering too.

The Angels are one of the few teams that are still ahead of the Orioles, so that was a bummer yesterday. But as a baseball fan, it is exciting to see the Angels finally make the decision to try to build a team around Trout. That was a little strange

that right after news broke that they had traded for Upton, news broke that Maben was going to the Astros because he gives them like the speed element that certainly Justin Upton does not. But it was an interesting day to see what the Angels and the Astros were doing because the Astros were the team that got Maven. Let's talk about the Astros though because Berlander. I had their top three

starters on my League of Dorks fantasy team which is going to finish second. Mainly for a variety of reasons, but mainly because these three starters McHugh, Keiko, McCullers. I traded you. Jeff and I traded you, McCullers. I think I might have gotten 31 starts total out of these guys, but they have not been good.

We wrote about, Zach Mack wrote about the Verlander trade last night, and I didn't even realize the Astros were 20-24 in their last 44 games. That was shocking. Because I knew the Red Sox were climbing closer and closer, but I didn't know they were under 500 for one-fourth of the season. Yeah, and that little chart that Cram had in there about the pitching statistics for the starting rotations of the six division leaders.

I mean, the Astros were dead last by a lot. The thing is, like, Keuchel and McCullers are really, really good when they're healthy. The issue is, can they stay healthy? I mean, McCullers has been on the DL multiple times this year. Well, yeah, so he's young and had the pitch count. Totally. I mean, what was he heading toward, like 180 innings?

That's what I wish I had researched that when I traded for him. I should have known. The 23-year-old dude. They can never go 200 plus. I don't get to complain about that trade because Manny Machado has been literally the best player in baseball since we made that deal.

So annoying. God damn it. Whoa. Is this kind of a free agent run for him now? Oh, yeah, of course. Even though he's a year away, he's been the best player in baseball. Every homer, every web gem at third, it's just another couple mil, you know? So you think Verlander's number one starter?

Like opening playoff series, does he start game one for them? I think it depends on how Keuchel finishes the season. If Keuchel comes back... I can tell you right now, he's been shitty with a capital S. I mean, he was excellent the first few months of the season.

And we're not very far removed from him winning the Cy Young. So if he can get healthy and he finishes strong, I think probably the start still goes to him. But yeah, Verlander's either game one or game two, for sure. I would start Verlander. I actually have Verlander's either game one or game two.

I would start Verlander. I actually have Verlander on my team too. And we traded for him because he had started to get better. And he's been good for two months now. He's been really good. I'm disappointed the Red Sox didn't get them. Are you ready to admit, to concede that he should have won the Cy Young over Rick Purcello, who is not a real baseball player? He was great last year.

Was he? I'll tell you this though i'd rather have verlander starting in the playoffs game two versus old rick i the thing that i like about the trade is it's just the latest confirmation that this basically tanking and baseball approach works like the astros are able to make a deal like that in the, at the August trade deadline, which is very uncommon. Why didn't they block it? I don't know.

Just block it. Throw a block in. To be willing to give up three, like, you know, not blue chip, totally elite prospects, but good prospects.

One of them was their third best guy. Yeah. And people really are really high on Dallas Cameron too. So they gave up some decent talent, but they can afford to because their farm system still, even after the moves they've made in recent seasons, is so stacked. Teams like the Astros and the Cubs have been able to make the deals they've needed to make. I mean, that's why during the July deadline, when the Dodgers came in and got Darvish, everybody's reaction was, why didn't the Astros do this?

They had the pieces to do it. It was never a question of if they had the chips. It was just when they were going to be willing to move them. I'd rather how it played out for them. I think it was a better outcome because I think they would have had to give up much more for Darvish. And I think Berliner's going to be good in the playoffs. The Dodgers didn't have to give up that much for Darvish.

I like that hitter they gave up. Did you see the clips of him? Yeah, Baumann's high on him too. That guy's a stud. Yeah. What's his name? I'm blanking. I watched all the clips because we were probably gonna have the first pick in the League of Dorks. Oh, you're already scouting for the minor league drafts.

I scouted that guy. I was like, look at this swing. He hit a farewell homer for the Dodgers farm team before he left. Who on the Red Sox would you have been willing to say goodbye to? Pomerantz. Nobody wants Pomerantz. Nobody wants Pomerantz. Nobody wants Pomerantz. I give them Pomerantz and some prospects and we're good. Which prospects?

Take Pomerantz back. Which prospects? Like our fourth best prospect. Whatever. Full rebuild in Detroit. Pomerantz is a fine, he's a cheap salary guy who can throw a pretty nice looking six innings unless you actually watched every pitch. Boy, is he frustrating.

I can't wait to be punching a wall when I'm watching him in a playoff. He might not get into the fifth inning in a playoff game. Everybody's gonna take eight pitches. But that's fine. Like you don't need to get beyond the fifth inning or even into it. For a manager to succeed in the baseball playoffs now,

you just have to be willing to creatively use your bullpen and do whatever it takes. I don't know about this. Trade for more relievers then, you know? Addison Reed was fine on paper. I like Addison Reed. He makes me nervous. I like him.

He just makes me nervous. Is there a stat? Is there a fan graph stat for a guy for how nervous a pitcher makes you? Because he's up there. It's probably directly correlated to how that pitcher fares in high leverage situations. But yeah, he's had some tough playoff moments for sure, as Mets fans can attest. I thought that was a great trade for the Astros.

Yeah, they had to do it. 20 million next year, 20 million the year after. And it gets triggered for 2020 if he's in top five of the Cy Young. And if he is, you'd want to pay him 20 million anyway. It's a lot of money for an older player who two years ago everybody thought was done. But it's just not a lot of money in the grand scheme of what baseball contracts

come up for now. And if you're chasing a title this year, it just doesn't matter. So I like it too. I mean, they really, after the July deadline, they felt like the, if not the biggest, among the biggest, you know, losers because they

just had a clear opportunity to get an ace or an ace light and he's a run yeah the thing is since then like at that point i think pretty much everybody would have said certainly you would have said oh the astros are winning the al pennant the red socks are just not as good but since the red socks and the ind Indians look as good or better than the Astros in the last month, so you had to make a move. You just had to. The Indians' top three got going.

Yeah. Even though Salazar and Carrasco got showed once last month. But in general, they look like they're kind of... Kluver's been going the whole year, but the other two got going. Kluver's incredible. And that Pan, I mean, obviously how healthy Andrew Miller is in the playoffs is a big thing for them. My dad's already given up on us beating Tito in round one if it plays out to that.

Yeah. I don't know. The problem with this Red Sox team, and I've been watching them. I really enjoy watching them and I like the guys in the team. They're a fun team. There's some holes, man. Betts has been in a slump since July 4th. Betts has been bad since July 4th.

He's still a good defensive right fielder. Bogarts is like, if there's a guy, like yesterday, he was third and first. You just know the DP's coming. Right. And you just go down the lineup. It's like, who's going to get a hit? Like, Nunez, I have more faith in just go down the lineup. It's like, who's going to get a hit? Like, Nunez, I have more faith in than anybody in my lineup. He's been unstoppable.

Which is not, I don't know. I just, Kimbrel's obviously good. Not as much home run power this year in that lineup as you'd want in a season that has been defined by three true outcomes. Like, the players who have defined a season and the teams that have defined the season, mostly, you know, have a ton of pop.

But the other thing they have is elite pitching. And like, would you want literally anyone in baseball other than Chris Sale right now? So that's it. The case for the Red Sox is if Sale is just unbelievable in the playoffs. He can have... It's conceivable.

He can have the postseason that Bumgarner had. Yeah, it's conceivable. Like you believe that fully, that he can make, he can give you seven eight maybe nine innings 12 strikeouts one run if the other team is lucky and he's going to give you more than one start in a series and that he'd also come out of the pen late if he needed to like it's just not hard to envision some kind of herculean showing from him he could go been unstoppable. He can go seven great innings five or six times in a row. Absolutely. It's conceivable.

I mean, it's... If you're a fan of any other AL team, it's terrifying. Here's what I think they need to do. Ortiz, just a 60 day hitting coach contract. Assistant hitting coach. Put a uniform on him. Get him in the dugout. He obviously had magical powers with these dudes.

Like Hanley is a completely different guy this year. Mookie Betts, I don't know what happened. Is magical powers a specific strain of PED or is it? Stop it. That's not funny. Say you're joking. It made Kyle laugh. Kyle, don't laugh at that.

No, it's just high fives. It's the arm around the shoulder. It's the come on guys, you'll get them next time. Yep. Arm around the shoulder with the needle in the hand. I'm just kidding Red Sox fans. I don't like any of these jokes. I just don't like them.

I don't want your dad to be mad at me. So I'll state for the record that I'm joking. I'll tell you, my dad doesn't like those jokes. All in good fun. A.L. Pennonauts. Oh God. Indians plus 225. Astros plus 250.

Okay. Red Sox, plus 320, which I think is insane. Yankees, 7-1. Angels, 25-1. Possible sleeper here. The Twins of Minnesota. Yeah. 25-1.

Byron Buxton, Twins fans. buxton twins fans send me flowers send me candy his career couldn't take off until i traded him i traded him his career took off i said it when i did the second i traded him i knew it was gonna happen he's now the best player in baseball single day i feel like i get five push notifications from the mlb app about something that he's done he had three homers in a game. Since you traded him. We had him for three and a half, four and a half years or whatever and all he did was strike out. I think he struck out

what, 30 times in April? Now he's Mike Trout. Could not make contact at all. Very happy for Megan Schuster. Ringer's resident Twins fan, Megan Schuster. Well, that's the thing with these playoffs is you have Angels fans, Twins fans, and Orioles fans

just to get to a wildcard game is the highlight of their decade. Oh, I mean, listen, every day here with you is a highlight of my life. Thank you, I appreciate that. I feel the same way. Thank you. The best sporting moment of my life. remember i root for the ravens your life

who have you've won two super bowls but those i mean talk about pds and tainted the best sporting moment of my like conscious fandom was when the orioles finally made the wild card game and beat you darvish in 2012 like those three three and a half hours were everything to me because just getting there represented in my mind an achievement that to that point I had not thought possible and like I regularly think about that and how it made me feel. It was just electric and energizing. And I was like, I'm good now for a really long time.

Now I would love for the Orioles to win a world series in my lifetime. That would be great. Make the world series. Love for them to make the world series. You were in a lab in 83, right? No, no.

86. I was born in 86. So you missed everything. Yep. Yeah. I was there for 83. Yeah. Solid team. Yeah, great stuff. I just have

my dad's memories passed down to me. Well, the Orioles are 40-1. Boy. The Orioles are not... KC's 75-1, Seattle 75-1, Rangers 75-1. I don't take really the Mariners super seriously.

It seems like they're almost kind of in seller mode a tiny bit. The only reason I'm allowing myself to buy in ever so slightly for the O's is that the Dylan Bundy extra rest thing seems to have unlocked some other previously unknown plane of existence for him. What was his last start? It was a monster start. 12 strikeouts. Yeah.

Complete game, one hit. I think I saw in the sun the only other Oriole ever who had that exact stat line was Mike Messina. Oh. Great company. Yeah. Mike Messina, just good enough to take you to the sixth game of the World Series and lose. Yeah, exactly. I don't know.

Machado's on fire. Scope is having an incredible season. Look at the recipe, right? You have one great starter, potentially. You have two relievers you like, maybe three. Do you like O'Day this year? A lot of concerns about O'Day this year. So you got two relievers you like.

I actually am really worried about the bullpen in general. I still don't think Britton's healthy. I mean, I... I can vouch for that. I get the little... He's on my team. He's the red flag every once in a while. They're like, his knee should be fine.

It's like, what's wrong with his knee? Is he good or is it not good? I've never been totally, totally sold on Brock. I like Givens a lot. I think that he has the chance to... His stuff is so good that he could go... Your bullpen's fine. It might be better than fine

if Britain's healthy in October. The thing is can an Oriole fan ever again think the bullpen is fine? Like let's never ever forget the time Britain did not pitch in that game. And then you have Machado who's the best slugger in baseball right now except for Stanton. He's incredible.

It's an amazing thing to watch him play baseball every day. So 40 to 1 maybe i don't know i believe i'm allowing myself to believe the team that's got to be mad is the royals because they could have had the fire sale last month and got deceived into thinking they were a playoff team that's the thing about the second wild card though like every team basically believes that it's still alive there are only three or four teams come trade deadline that are actually convinced that they're out of it like unless you were as bad as basically the Braves or the Phillies this year yeah you sort of thought you had a chance

right and the fact that the Orioles for example are back in it shows that you kind of do I mean the twin okay let's talk about the twins they traded for Garcia yeah because they thought they were in it a couple days of bad baseball passed and then they're like actually we're out of this traded him to the yankees and now they're back in it he was he's like the mole in the yankees it's true and they ultimately ended up with like a better return but it's kind of it's just a it's a it's an insight into to how quickly this really can all change if I had to bet on any of these to actually win the pennant, I think the Yankees at 7-1 are the best odds because

you could make a case that they swooned at the right time and could come back at the... I'm just saying purely from the odds. So they're the college basketball team that has a great regular season and then actually does itself a favor by losing

the opening game of the conference tournament yes get it out of the way and then you're ready for the ncaa that's the case for the yankees interesting because they we know that counterpoint we know that they're at least have the bullpen arms which you're going to need true unless chapman is just a section eight i I mean, yeah, he has been terrible. Like just not getting the swings and misses. Terrible, but yet he still was throwing 103. It looks like his knees are starting to go on him is the thing that scares me.

Yeah, the velocity has been steady, but he's not getting the whiffs. Again, Zach Cram, man, so many name drops for Zach Cram on today's podcast. He wrote a really good piece a couple weeks ago examining the shoulder angle and the release point and how that is clearly impacting the strikeout rate and the effect there. Yeah, they have a great bullpen.

Aaron Judge went from being Babe Ruth to being Aaron Judge from last year. And that's a huge change. Is he really going to hit 150 for the rest of the year? At some point, he's going to figure it out. Why do you think that had been the player he was until this point, until the beginning of this season? He was a guy with incredible pop who could not make contact. He struck out constantly and had a low average.

He was Joey Gallo, right? And now maybe that's who he really is. They figured out something with him. I do think there's something to him being hurt too. Yeah, it's a lot. Ben, my man has a chance at the ROI. They figured out something. They figured out something with him. I do think there's something to him being hurt too. Yeah. He's got some sort of, my man has a chance at the ROI. Wow.

He has a chance. I don't know. I think Judge is. He could be a 25-25 guy. Good defense. I think Judge had such an otherworldly first half. I think it's the kind of thing where most people just made their decision then. Okay. And don't reassess it.

What do you think about the National League? Or do you just think it's the Dodgers and no one else? This is when I start following. Yeah. This month. September is when I start looking at the National League. Dodgers are slumping a little bit right now. They're slumping.

That was so inevitable, though. If Bryce comes back healthy, I think the Nationals are really, really, really, really good. Stroudsburg looks great. Scherzer is one of the three best pitchers in baseball, right? But they're the Nats. They're the Nats capitals. Anthony Rendon, low-key MVP candidate this year. He's been almost flawless in every aspect of the game.

I'm going to give you the Nats for the NL championship. They're plus 340. Second best odds. Dodgers plus 110. Cubs plus 400, which I think is interesting because Quintana had a good start this week. Yeah, the Cubs are good. D-backs 12-1. Rockies 17-1.

Wow. It would be fun to see the Rockies. The Rockies are fun. But I wouldn't want to play them in a playoff series because of that weird park. You know? It's just fun to see the Rockies. The Rockies are fun. But I wouldn't want to play them in a playoff series because of that weird park. It's just weird to go like, all of a sudden you have three and four in Colorado and it's 1-1 heading to Colorado and you've got to win a game there?

Well, yeah. I mean, especially, you know, think about the other teams in the National League. They certainly have home run hitters, but they're really built around their pitching. So you lose that edge if you're playing at cores. It would be really fun to see Nolan Arenado in the playoffs. And I say this as somebody who is married to a Rockies fan and spends basically 75% of my life caught in the Arenado versus Machado debate.

Oh my God. Yeah. Adam's a Colorado sports fan. How do we not have cameras in your house? It's tough. It's really tough. Postmates, orders, and Rockies arguments. It's really tough. We have to have two TVs

so we can have the Oriole and the Rocky games on. Dodgers plus 110 is a pretty good bet, in my opinion. You're basically even odds that the Dodgers, who have been the most dominant team of the year, is just going to take care of business for two straight rounds. It's despite Kershaw's, I guess saying checkered playoff history would be putting it charitably.

Despite that, there's no one you'd actually rather have on your team in the playoffs than him because he's the best player in baseball. I love you, Darvish. He's my favorite non-Oriole. I think he's just thrilling to watch. If he's healthy, having a Kershaw-Darvish one-two punch in the playoffs, there's just nobody else has anything close to that other than, I think, the Scherzer-Strasburg combo,

if they're both healthy. High upside with Darvish, too, in those playoff Dodger games. Oh, my God. I think that crowd's going to, if he gets going, and he's got the five strikeouts after two innings type of thing, the crowd's going to be going crazy. Puig is good again. Puig's good again. And he energizes the crowd.

That's the best crowd of the year. I know. I love that Puig's good again. It's really amazing. Guess what? Little kids like Puig. Kids like Puig. My son's all in on Puig.

The Dodgers are secretly really fun. Yeah, I agree. I think they have a reputation as being kind of like predictable and dull. They take it out of Gonzalez. He was the most boring, good player in the league for like 10 years. Totally. But Puig is great. I mean, Seager is one of like the 10, 15 most exciting young players in baseball.

Bellinger is, you know, Judge Light. So they're awesome. Some good baseball hairdos? Yeah. No? What's your favorite hairdo right now? Oh, I ride hard for Bryce, for the Harper hair. The flip that he does when he takes the helmet off, it's masterfully executed every time.

You like the longer hair? Well, not- What kind of facial hair do you like? Not as a general rule. Like, for example- I'm saying with your baseball players. Your boy, Ben Attendee, should get a trim. I'm with you.

It's ridiculous. He looks like he's in the eighth grade and hasn't gotten his haircut for the class photo yet. Terrible. In general, I like actually like a tighter fade. You know, I live in LA. I'm surrounded by hipster fades and undercuts all the time. I'm just talking baseball.

What's your favorite look? You know, we're surrounded by Mets fans. So I've become allergic to the long hair. I don't like the long hair either. Just because of being forced to think about Noah Syndergaard and Jacob deGrom at all times. Who has good hair right now other than Harper? Trout has an abominable haircut right now.

Trout just needs a makeover. It's a disaster. He has no idea how to be a superstar. It's like oddly charming, but if I'm Manfred and I'm trying to make baseball marketable and interesting to young people, I beg Mike Trout to try to be cool next year. I beg him. My mom, who goes to a lot of wine stuff in the Beverly Hills area, because she's a wine jockey, was at a wine restaurant place and Mike Trout sat next to her with a friend.

And she called after and was like, I sat next to Mike Trout? He's really a famous baseball player? Like she was stunned. She said he had like no celebrity aspect to him. Oh my God. He just didn't feel famous. No. That's the problem with Mike Trout.

Bryce Harper feels famous. Oh, yeah. Bryce Harper is a celebrity and wants to be a celebrity and knows how to be. I mean, I think Judge has a little bit of that in him. Maybe. He's super likable. Trout does not. But it's going to hurt if he's going to hit 150.

All rise. Sorry, Yankee fans. You still getting up? No, he struck out again. Uh-oh. My bad Somehow his baseball cards are still going through the roof I mean his baseball cards It was the biggest Rush for anybody

That there's been in a long time People like home runs Alright so our sleeper picks We don't have any sleeper picks Bets, anything? What do we recommend? You recommend the Nats at plus 340, and you kind of like the Twins at 25 to 1 on the tiny bit, no?

I can't see the Twins actually making the playoffs. I think the Angels or the Orioles get that second wild card. So you would recommend the Orioles at 40 to 1? No, I can't do that in good faith. I'll say yes, but I'll also issue the caveat that you absolutely cannot trust my opinion on the Orioles. And also, it's important to remind everyone that I have cost you a lot of money in the past with my gambling advice. You're terrible.

It should not be trusted, period. I don't know why I'm asking you. The fact that you don't like the Yankees 7-1 makes me like it a little bit more. Oh, yeah, I hate that. By the way, for those of you listening, I would never, ever bet on the Yankees in a million years. Ever. Ever. In fact, I hope I jinxed them. All last thing thrones really quickly yeah um did you cry at the end did you cry when it was over oh i sobbed i mean you and jason you have this connection now that's like yeah i don't know what it is you're like the three-eyed raven for each other i say this sincerely it is one of the most beautiful things in my life.

I really cherish it. You spent so much time together. It's really special to me. We did. You didn't want it to end. The last one was like two hours. The last binge-bone you did. I know.

Much to my chagrin. Last 15 minutes are basically just us weeping. But people really responded to that. It's amazing. So many people telling us how meaningful that was to them, which is awesome. That's nice. It's just people what makes the ringer special it's a bunch of people who are obsessed with things that they love and like when you get to totally put that part of yourself out into the world or work with someone like jason who not only like

acknowledges that you feel that way and doesn't make fun of you, but shares that with you, it's just awesome. So Thrones is really fun and special in general and getting to just like completely nerd out about it and obsess over it and have that resonate with people was like a life highlight, really.

It was awesome. Well, it was great content. Thanks, man. I hope season eight of Game of Thrones is better than season seven was, really. It was awesome. Well, it was great content. Thanks, man. I hope season eight of Game of Thrones is better than season seven was, but. It took a long time to get, now we're in the spoiler alert part, and we'll go quick because this pod was too long already,

but it seemed like they had like four objectives for the season. Yeah. And it took seven episodes to get to where they wanted to go, which was hooking up Jon and Dany with the big reveal to kill off Littlefinger, to give the White Walkers a dragon. And what was the fourth thing? The one more major objective.

John's parentage. Oh, John's parentage. The Rhaegar-Leona marriage. Those were the four objectives of the year. And it was a little circuitous. And I don't understand why they had to do the thing with the sisters where they had to fake us out with what they was really up to. I thought that was just weird storytelling. I was far and away my least favorite part.

Yeah. So it was like the intentional swerve just for the audience only with no wink wink at all. battlements and recite ned's words to each other and refer to each other as sister is something that people who care about this story have been waiting years for like their respective arcs have been among the greatest highlights of the story and seeing them unite when they had always been divided that's something people desperately wanted and so to basically toy with us and deprive us of that for a few extra episodes for no reason to get to an end game little finger staff that everyone knew was going to happen yeah extremely puzzling i will say i thought despite the uh unfortunate nature of the path to that point i thought the death itself was was poetic and was great symbolically kind of

beautiful like the guy who, his entire role in the story is basically to be the master manipulator. The guy who always thinks he's one step ahead. You know, Varys is the one who's called the spider, but Littlefinger is really always weaving the webs. And for him to get caught up in one of those and to be taken down by Sansa, his protege, be basically because he taught her too well.

Like the hubris and the arrogance to have her parrot his own words back into his face that was satisfying that was good and just the mirror image of you know when he betrayed ned in the throne room in king's landing in season one putting the blade up to his throat surrounded by onlookers This was like the mirror image of that. And so for him to go down in that way, it was extremely satisfying. The biggest flaw they did, not to belabor it, but just, I just don't, the whole exit plan with Jon Snow and the White Walkers

and just everything about that was, it was such a misfire. And it was, I actually like Concepcion's theory that their third dragon saved Jon Snow and they screwed up the CGI or the shot. He was supposed to ride off Rhaegal. They had to audible with this other ridiculous ending. But everything about that was so stupid.

If you have the dragons, hop on one of the dragons and just point out the waywalkers to Dany and then get the hell out of there. Yes. I thought that was, uh, I don't know. I just didn't like that, but that was poor, poor storytelling choices.

It's the, the, the actual like macro level choice. There's bad. So many things within that were puzzling, like for characters to stand next to John, you know, Jorah Barrack and to say, Hey,

the night King, you keep talking about how you looked into his eyes he's right there yeah go kill him and his entire army of the dead will fall because we just learned in a prior scene in this episode that if you kill a white walker the the the zombies the whites that he turned also fall yeah go kill him just get one of them and for john to be like no that's not why we're here when that's the entire point and the only thing he talks about is the great war stuff like that is bad but you know i thought in general flaws like that aside it was a pretty thrilling john centric season for fans of fantasy and they did a wonderful job of not revealing how short he is most of the time

they made like one or two short jokes at his expense but in general in general the camera work was really good this year that's like someone needs to man get kid harrington those scripts in advance or something that is really tough and also as jason has pointed out on binge mode and on talk the throne it's like amelia clark is like five feet tall so for her to be like he's too short tough i don't know nice match for her to be like he's too short tough i don't know nice match for them they seemed like they were um your daughter's in the room so i'll try to keep this pg they seemed like they were properly physically aligned when it mattered

i've noticed that they've scaled back to sex a little on thrones you look back to season one versus now. Oh, there wasn't nearly enough sex in this season. No. At all. They could have stepped it up. No brothel scenes. Where was the random brothel scene?

And not only do we not get just gratuitous brothel action, but Tyrion took a shot at Ross and the northern brothels. How dare you? That's a secret holy space. But yeah, I mean, the Grey Warden Miss worm masandi scene obviously a highlight in throne's lore but it was they were really few and far between it's tough you feel like mentally you've come back a little we were all worried about you i feel a deep emptiness you really lost your mind with the with with with the outlines i just want people to know how hard mallory and jason worked on that show to the point that we you really lost your mind with the outlines.

I just want people to know how hard Mallory and Jason worked on that show to the point that we genuinely worried about your physical and mental well-being. But now it's okay. You made it through. Appreciate that. And just want to stress that it was a labor of sincere and true love and that we cannot wait to do it again. Should we announce the next binge mode? Oh, wait, we don't have an idea for it yet.

The people have spoken on Twitter. Harry Potter? They want it. Thousands of requests. They want it. I would say twist your arm isn't exactly, twist your arm isn't exactly a tough one for you on that one. Boy, would be a...

I was thinking Harry Potter too. The honor of a lifetime. Zoe, I'm going to make a convert of you yet She's going to love it She's going to love it by the time we're through How many episodes would a Harry Potter Binge bone be? Oh my goodness

Who's to say? How many movies? Eight movies, then there's also the Fantastic Beasts movie If you want to really do the expanded universe Seven books, companion texts. And Concepcion is in this as well as you? Oh, yeah. Oh, boy.

Looks like that's where we're heading. Well, thank you for an incredible job. Thank you. It was really fun to create a little franchise within the franchise. Thank you for letting us do this. I wish everyone out there could work for a boss like Bill and work at a place. I'm getting emotional.

Work at a place where you can do things you love. It's awesome. You're Kyle's favorite ringer employee. It's awesome. Kyle's my favorite ringer employee. All right. This is great. What a love fest. Thanks to Kevin O'Connor. Thanks to Simply Safe. Remember, it's the final days of Simply Safe's home security. Huge summer sale. $100 SimpliSafe. Remember, it's the final days of SimpliSafe's home security.

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Only at DraftKings.com. Eligibility free. Only at DraftKings.com. Eligibility restrictions apply. See DraftKings.com for details. Thanks to Origins, Jim Miller's new podcast that launches on September 6th. Thanks to SeatGeek for $20 off your first SeatGeek purchase. On NFL tickets, use promo code BSNFL. And thanks to Theeringer.com. Go there this weekend.

Read all of our stuff, including an incredible, super bad 10-year anniversary piece that has everybody in it. And that's where you will find my column on Fridays, starting with football season. That's it. Enjoy the Labor Day weekend. We will see you on Tuesday with Guess the Lions. Guess the Lions. Guess the Lions. Year 11 with Cousin Sal.

Until then. I don't have.