The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Lakers Escape and Miami Flops With Kevin O’Connor, Plus Wesley Morris on ‘Air,’ ‘Succession,’ and Ben Affleck’s Unique Career

Episode Date: April 12, 2023

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O’Connor to discuss how the Lakers survived the Timberwolves in the play-in tournament, a look ahead to Lakers-Grizzlies, a disappointing Heat loss to the Hawks, NBA Round 2 dream matchups and more (1:33), before talking with The NYT’s Wesley Morris about why everyone loves the film ‘Air,’ revisiting Ben Affleck’s Hollywood legacy, HBO’s ‘Succession,’ and more (49:00). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kevin O’Connor and Wesley Morris Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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me and Mallory Rubin did Indecent Proposal, which came out 30 years ago, and it's just a batshit crazy movie. Had a lot of fun breaking that down. Go check it out. Also put up a prestige TV podcast on Sunday night after a watershed succession episode. I'm still not going to spoil anything, but man, did we break it down. Mishon Fantasy, Joanna Robinson. If you missed that, go listen to that. Go listen to The Watch for the Indie

Gridwall. And Chris Ryan, they had a really good podcast about it as well. Coming up on this podcast, Kevin O'Connor and I are going to break down the two Tuesday Night Playing games and what it means for the Hawks and the Heat and the Timberwolves and the Lakers. Plus, my old friend Wesley Morris came on to talk about why we liked air so much.

And also what it means to Ben Affleck's three-decade legacy, which we both feel like needs some examining. And then, of course, we have to talk about succession because that's what we do. It's all next. First, our friends taping this. It's a little past 10 o'clock Pacific time.

Kevin O'Connor is here. Just watched. We've only had the plan for a couple years, KFC. That was the dumbest playing game we've ever had. Timberwolves-Lakers. It turned into a rock fight, crossed with a checkers match, crossed with just some of the dumbest things I've seen

on a basketball court. The Lakers prevail. Minnesota, it's just sitting there for them. Just sitting there. They were scoreless for, I think, six minutes in the fourth quarter at one point. All they had to do was make two plays. Six minutes and.9 seconds, Bill, until the.1 left.

All they had to do was make two plays, and they win, and they get by. Instead, we're going to have Lakers versus Memphis. Where do you want to start? Lakers or Minnesota? What jumped out more for that game from you? I think the Lakers side of things. The fact they climbed so far to get back in and it ended as ugly as it did. But the fact they're actually there is

kind of remarkable after the two and 10 start. The fact that, you know, LeBron almost choked the game away on multiple occasions, settling for the three on the cat switch in the fourth quarter, then the careless turnover, then the lazy inbound and overtime that Conley intercepted. Like just the fact that the way they did, it makes you feel, uh, I planned on definitely picking them against the Grizzlies, but it makes you feel less confident considering Minnesota just was given so

many countless chances in that game. It just didn't take it. Well, and it, the ad foul on Conley was like the third time he's done that this season. Reggie Miller literally

just said it moments before. The only thing you can't do is foul a three-point shooter. Well, so, alright, going backwards, Towns is putting together just an unbelievable Towns game. The first quarter and a half, it's the whole Towns is putting together just an unbelievable Towns game. The first quarter and a half,

it's the whole Towns package. It's everything. You watch it and you're like, alright, if they're ever going to trade Towns, this is the trade tape. This is the one you send. This Lakers game. This is how you get the seven first round picks that you gave away in the Gobert trade. You get them back for Towns.

Then he picks up two fouls in a split second. Then we have to. You get him back for Towns. And then he picks up two fouls in like a split second. And then we have to do foul trouble roulette with Towns. You know he's going to get his fourth. You know he's going to get his fifth on the dumbest thing possible, which he did. He's like boxing out Davis and pulls him down. And then he's got to play the last seven minutes in foul trouble. And he's just one of those guys that if he has foul trouble, he doesn't know what to do. Lakers were putting Austin Reeves on him for

multiple times down the stretch and he just didn't know what to do. And then, so you have that, and then you have Edwards, who was just horrendous. Almost to the point where it was like, is he hurt? What happened? He finished 3-17, 0-9 from 3. 3-17, 4 turnovers.

And just didn't have it. He usually has a vibrancy to him that I just didn't see in this game. So, you know, odds of them winning with nothing in the second half from Towns and nothing for five quarters from Edwards. Probably low. But as an Edwards fan, I was a little disappointed.

How'd you feel? I mean, you're definitely disappointed. He did have the tape on his shoulder. He had the hard fall, the fall that he had when he kind of flipped over AD, where it looked like he landed on his neck, but he kind of braced himself on his side. So perhaps there was something going on physically

for him to play such a piss-poor performance. I mean, but besides that block he had in the first quarter um you know he did it obviously at the end of regulation against cj mccollum and against against the pelicans in game 82 doesn't in the first quarter a great block um besides that i mean it felt like he was invisible in the game and with carl anthony towns like you said bill you know this was the quintessential was invisible in the game. And with Carl Anthony Towns, like you said, Bill, you know, this was the quintessential cat game in the first half. You're thinking, oh, my goodness, this is one of the best cat performances I've ever seen.

He's not only scoring on offense, he's impactful on defense. You know, he's in the right position. He's containing drives to the basket. He's aggressive. He's confident. And then those two fouls happened back to back. The charge against LeBron and then the reckless foul on the other end. And ever since that moment in the game, it seemed like he also did nothing.

I mean, the fact Minnesota was even in this without Gobert, there was moments in the game I felt like they couldn't really use Gobert. go bear just saying uh like when minnesota's going small and and the lakers are are getting to the pink drawing fouls at will because they have no size on the inside whether it's towns out there or whether it's you know a lack of size um but the fact that minnesota was even so close in this game without go bear and no jayden mcdaniels uh it's remarkable but it does speak to how sloppy the lakers were though i mean like the lakers win this game um but it just felt like they were trying to give it away throughout and darvin ham some of the rotations in the first half like why was ad in there for so long like why are you you know putting in wendon gabriel when you go small like all he offers is hustleman you know in the

second half you got lebron at center when the Wolves pulled out Cat with the fourth foul. Wolves went small then, too, but they couldn't amount any lead at all. I would have liked to seen them zag and go big, maybe with AD a little bit earlier there. But obviously, it worked out for them with the win. But just a lot of questionable decisions on the court and from the coaching staff for the Lakers, I felt. Yeah, they put a lot of miles on LeBron in this game, too. He's 30 minutes through the first three quarters.

He ended up 45. Looked tired a bunch of times in this. And I thought took a lot of plays off on defense. And he was brilliant on offense. Oh, big time. But, yeah, it's a weird one because Vanderbilt was supposed to be the X factor for this team. And he sucked today.

He only played 22 minutes. He didn't make a shot. And down the stretch, they went with Hachimura, who it's not even like he was shooting that well, but I think they liked his size on some of the switches, but it was Hachimura. It was Reeves. It was one of the guards, usually Schroeder and then, and Davis and LeBron. But it just, you know, there was a lot of buzz these past couple of weeks about the Lakers as a title team. Um, I just don't see it. Uh, I don't know whether people are saying it because it gets clicks or it's fun to talk

about and I get it. Like they could beat anybody on any given night, stuff like that. But I don't see this team putting together three straight rounds and getting to the finals. It just seems completely unrealistic to me. Not to mention, you even saw today, like LeBron was unquestionably wearing down as that game went along. I just don't think he can play the kind of workload

that this team would need him to play if they actually had to make a run like they did three years ago. What do you think? I mean, with time off between games, do you think that could be advantageous for the Lakers, though, when it comes to an actual seven-game series? Because now they're resting until Saturday or Sunday when they have their game one time off. And in the first round, there's always two days off between a lot of games. So I think that could be advantageous for the Lakers.

First round's easier. Yeah, you're right. For sure. But second round, if they're in a series against, I don't know, the Kings or the Warriors, that 2-3 slot, maybe at that point you feel like you're getting run off the floor. But those teams are flawed too.

I think that's... I mean, after the trade deadline, I had the Lakers sixth in my championship power rankings. And people said that was clickbait. It wasn't. I mean, I felt like the Lakers put together a really good roster after the trade deadline with the acquisitions that they made. And they tied with Memphis for the best record in the NBA after the deadline.

And granted, they faced a lot of crappy teams. They definitely are better now than they were pre-deadline. And I think part of the know the level of you know belief in them for me personally at least was look at all these other teams in the west i mean every single one of them has flaws and if you're arguing against you know the lakers now that you know a way i'd argue against them at this moment is it's lebron it's as you said can he sustain this as he has in the past for 40 plus minutes, night in, night out, where we've saw him take play after playoff on defense in that first quarter built

there were three instances. He left Torian Prince completely wide open, didn't even move out of the paint on a three pointer at the top of the key, among others in that first quarter, among other players, he took off the entire game. So if LeBron's doing that already in a must-win game what happens in you know game six game seven of a long slugfest of a series potentially next round against the grizzlies it's that's the argument against them but i just think every team in the west is so flawed that i can't point to any one of them and say oh you are definitely you know a favorite over the lakers yeah Yeah, he slides into DH LeBron mode

where he's just offense, offense, offense. But down the stretch, he did start playing more. I'm with you. I thought defensively, they're following his lead and they weren't playing defense at all, partly because he wasn't. But flipping it the other way, just watching him tonight,

thinking the age he's at, how much older he is than Edwards. And Edwards was guarding him. And Edwards was so fired up to defend him. You could just see it. He was like, let's go. Athlete versus athlete. Let's fucking go.

Let's do this. And LeBron not only held his own, but he was the best part in the game. This is year 20 for him. And just to see him be able to summon this level. I voted for him third team all NBA. Did you vote for him or no? I had him third team all NBA as well. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's crazy that he's still able to do it at this age. And then, you know, the Davis piece, Davis, at least it wasn't like the greatest Davis game, but at least he was a hundred percent

engaged. You know, he had that near dunk in the first quarter, and it just felt like he was around. If anything, he was trying a little too hard, which led to the Conley foul. I wonder about the supporting cast. I think Schroeder has been in enough big games now that it seems like LeBron trusts him. I felt like that play to get what seemed to be

the game-winning Schroeder three at the end of regulation, that seemed like a set play. That seemed like a LeBron drive to the right, draw some people over and kick to Schroeder in the corner. That's a pretty high level of trust. For somebody who was bouncing around last year, the Celtics didn't even want him to trade that line last year. I mean, with Schroeder, I think the cool thing about him this season

is, I mean, I think it was against OKC. He had that, you saw, I'm sure, the highlight, you know, the play of him laying out full extension, grabbing a loose ball. And then the Lakers turned it over and then he kind of stopped on a dime and went like full defensive back and intercepted the pass, you know, sprinting back on defense. And he's just like he's had against Minnesota earlier in the season. He was defending Carl Anthony Towns on switches. Truder has had so many moments this year where he just defines what this Lakers team has become this year. So it was cool that he had that moment at the end of regulation hitting a game winning three pointer because considering everything that he's done with role changes, injuries that have really limited him. He's defined this identity of the Lakers with the hustle and the selflessness that he brings to the floor.

So I think he's definitely important to this team. The fact he was able to come back is massive for them as a secondary ball handling presence and also just an energizer. I mean, him, Austin Reeves, Vanderbilt. I don't know, Bill. I know today's game was really, really disgustingly sloppy for the Lakers, but when you talk about championship qualities, they have a lot of those X factors, guys like that,

energizers that title teams need. It's really just going to come down to can LeBron do this over the course of a full series, and can Anthony Davis actually stay healthy? With him, it's always going to be a question, I think. Well, there's a little bit of the Belichick-Pats quality with the LeBron playoff team too, where, you know, on the one hand, they're going to get more calls than the other team in their favor. Like you saw tonight, the fouls ended up being 28 to 15. That's just part of the process. The other thing is LeBron's really smart. Once he smelled the foul trouble possibilities on Towns, he started attacking. And those guys, they're just smart. They're game savvy. Where you look at Minnesota, they're the opposite of game savvy, right? That's why they

played themselves out of the Memphis series last year. It was just hoops IQ stuff they couldn't do. Same thing for Towns today. Towns, just try to get through the game without fouling people. Half of the fouls he gets are just dumb fouls. Then he was trying his ass off to get the sixth foul at one point in the fourth quarter

and they wouldn't give it to him. The hoops IQ of this team, it's going to be interesting against Memphis, where no Steven Adams, no Brandon Clark. On the other hand, their wings, I think, are just better than the non-LeBron Lakers perimeter people. And then the Ja piece of it, just athletically, if he's back to being pre-whatever-the-F-happened-in-February-Jah,

there's nobody on the Lakers that's going to come close to keeping him out of the paint, I don't think. Do you? Not on ball, necessarily, no. But defense, what individual defender can stop any player? That's a star perimeter talent in the NBA nowadays. That's a good point. Who's stopping anyone? yeah yeah it's like you need five connected pieces like i mean verno we're talking about like steph curry and like the warriors king series the other day like who

who stopped steph nobody i mean marcus smart the defensive player of the year last year in the finals couldn't stop steph and curry it it takes five and a little bit of luck, too, with shot making. So I think for the Lakers, their advantage in this series is going to have to be that Steve Adams is indeed out for sure and that if he does play, which seems unlikely,

that if he does play, he's ineffective because the Lakers are going to have to pummel them inside. You're going to have to force Jaron Jackson Jr. into foul trouble. You're going to have to pull him off the floor. Which foul trouble. You're going to have to pull him off the floor. You know that's coming. Yeah, I mean, I know

you feel that way for sure with your vote. Well, can you just play 30 minutes a game if I'm going to vote you defensive player of the year? I don't know. I'm old school. Can you be out there for two-thirds of the game? Two-thirds? Is that too much to ask for?

We didn't mention Mike Conley hitting all three free throws. Oh, that was so cool. Every time somebody's in that situation, I always feel like they're going to miss the middle one. I don't know why. It's just so hard to make the three. One of them gets wonky. And for him, it was the first one, hit the front of the rim.

But I was really rooting for them. Not just because I love rooting it's the Lakers, but I just love Mike Conley. He's on that short list of just guys I'm all in on. And I was like, oh man, don't let Mike Conley miss one of these. He hadn't shot a free throw the whole game. And he fucking nailed them. I think Minnesota, their big mistake down the stretch in this game,

I don't know why the ball wasn't in Conley's hands. They basically had him just standing in the corner. Why weren't they running pick and rolls with him in towns? It is the strangest thing. Cat making slow decisions. He's getting post touches and freezing and not doing anything, waiting for doubles to come. And we talked about him being limited already.

What was Mike Conley doing? There was a couple plays. He's floating around the dunker spot on the baseline. What is this offense? And Minnesota, their fourth quarter offense this year has stunk a lot. It's not the first time we've seen them completely stagnate in fourth quarters. But in a game where Mike Conley is really at times it felt like the only offensive presence um i mean the three-pointer i thought like reggie miller analyzed it pretty well i

thought where anthony davis came you're running at him and conley did a little like a slight little pump fake to wait for ad to get out of his line of sight like just the little things like that that conley did over the course of the game uh i mean like pretty clearly minnesota made the right decision flipping dilo to get conley i couldn't help but think if if there's lakers executives or rob palenka himself that might regret not choosing conley instead of dilo because the jazz you know gave up oh you think so yeah i mean like the jazz gave up two seconds and the Lakers gave up a second to the Wolves to get D'Lo.

And, you know, Alexander Walker goes to Minnesota too. But, I don't know. I just wonder if at this point the Lakers like, hey,

maybe we should have went with the older proven guy instead of the younger guy with, you know, theoretical upside. D'Lo was one for nine tonight. Oh,

he was terrible. And it felt worse. Yeah. Look, Conley's just better than D'Lo. I, yeah, you know, I'm in the, I don't understand the D'Lo was one for nine tonight. Oh, he was terrible. And it felt worse. Yeah, look, Conley's just better than D'Lo. Yeah. You know, I'm in the I don't understand the D'Lo thing camp and have been there for a while.

And I would just rather have Conley. Maybe they felt like they just wanted, because LeBron has the ball so much, maybe they were better off with somebody who could play off it. But it was not a good game for him. Conley can shoot, though. We saw it tonight. Conley can shoot 40 plus percent

from three for you know I think four or five consecutive years going back to Memphis and an awesome teammate I thought today you know it's hard

you don't want to get ahead of it but now we're here Lakers Memphis 2-7 Golden State Sacramento 3-6 and if Golden State and the Lakers advance to round two,

we get Golden State Lakers and we get Steph LeBron. And it's about as good of a round two series from star power standpoint as we've had. I would say if the ratings for that aren't the highest possible for round two, that they've, whatever it is, that's probably the ceiling for a round two playoff game would be my guess. And it also makes me wonder,

what would the league do to get Golden State Lakers round two? What kind of rules will be broken? We might see Scott Foster a few times in that series. How about Austin Reeves getting, you know, 20 more free throws a game. Oh yeah. Austin Reeves getting more free throws than ever of the Grizzlies.

But yeah, we're not, we're really not that far away from Lakers, Lakers warriors now. And there's a whole Steph LeBron, you know, they have the same amount of championships. They have four each.

They're the two defining players of the 21st century. I guess Kobe. I always think Kobe came in in 96, but I mean, Kobe's probably in there too. But when you think people who changed basketball in the 21st century, it's LeBron and Curry. LeBron changed it with all the off the court stuff. Curry changed it with how it's played.

There's a rivalry that I think neither guy wants to admit it's a rivalry, but it is. I think they get along way better than they probably used to. And the teams are pretty even, you know? And then you have all the clutch stuff and you have Davis and LeBron and Draymond. I don't know.

D'Lo used to play on the Warriors. There's just a lot of storylines that would be potentially brewing. And I think both of them are a good spot. Sacramento hasn't been in the playoffs in 18 years. And Memphis is not the same Memphis team. So it's at least realistic.

And I think for people like my mom and your mom, that's a series where you'll be like, oh, Steph and LeBron are in a playoff series. Everybody's in on that series. What would it also say about the value of the regular season? To see two upsets, the six and the seven, teams that just kind of sputtered in.

Wiggins out for six weeks. LeBron out playing 11 games after the trade deadline he's injured just curious I mean if you get those two upsets over a team that hasn't been in the finals for two decades almost and over a nice

up and coming Grizzlies team what would it say about the regular season you think Bill, I mean, anything at all. So I'm going to sound like I'm defending the league. I was thinking about it tonight with Minnesota. Who's missing three of their best seven guys in this game,

right? Nas Reed, Gobert and McDaniels. And they had Noel who who played 13 minutes, and Alexander Walker, who played 23. But it's just, I noticed this during the load management games and just in general, how many good players are in the league now. You know, like game 82, right?

Meant nothing for the Celtics. But Peyton Pritchard, who I think is kind of overqualified to be the 11th man on a team, right? He should, 10 years ago, that guy's in any rotation as a third guard. He just is. And now he can't play in the Celtics and he gets, you know, a triple double with 30 points. And it's like, ah, it's game 82, who cares? But I just think that speaks to how deep the league is. Like, I remember, you know, you think like the late KG Ray Ray, Rondo, Celtics, where Michael Pietras and people like that were playing real big minutes for them. Who was the other guy? Mickey Moore? Mikey Moore? Oh, yeah. round three playoff series. And now you look around and it honestly seems like every team is

12, 13, 14 deep. And I do wonder if that's part of the parody thing is that there's just, we have a ton of stars. We have a ton of very good players. We have a ton of depth. When people have injuries, other guys can come in and maybe that's a piece of it. So to me, this is maybe what the league's going to look like going forward, at least for a few years. Even with that 65 game minimum for awards. Yeah, but like how many when you think like, all right, let's say that was in place this year. Giannis plays like three more games, right?

Other than that, I don't know how much it would have affected the load management. Like Booker got hurt. Dane, maybe he sticks around so he can play 65. KD got hurt. He played 47 games. It wasn't because he didn't want to play.

So, you know, I think it's going to affect the, the like Giannis, like that kind of level where the guys end up playing 62 and they could have played 66. But could we also see this stuff where somebody comes in and plays for four seconds and sits down, aka what just happened the other day with Mikael Bridges? It's like, oh, he kept his streak going. He did. He played four seconds. Discounted? I was supposed to get excited about this? So I don't know. I really don't think that all NBA thing

is going to matter that much. Yeah, I mean, it seems like everybody in the league at this current moment, unless we learn something else or new guidelines are put in place, like a minimum minute requirement or something like that, seems like it's just kind of there for dressing.

It's like a first measure potentially for down the line, maybe more extreme measures that are in there for requirements to play games. But yeah, you're right. Even Steph Curry, he played 56 games. He's hurt. It's not like he was being load managed the entire season. It was just

a lot of injuries. It did suck, though. I mean, there was a lot of load management. I don't know. I do think we could get those upsets. The minutes thing I think is interesting. I looked at that and I was trying to figure out what the perfect number would be

and it's like 20, somewhere between 21 and 2200. So if you're playing, let's say you play 60 games, but you play 35 minutes a game, that gets you to 2100. Yeah. So it's somewhere around there, but I would 35 minutes a game, that gets you to 2100. Yeah. So it's somewhere around there,

but I would rather have a minutes limit than games. Because I think it rewards if somebody's playing 36 minutes a game, but whatever. Let's take a break. And we got to talk about Hawks Heat,

which somehow just got pushed to the back burner from the rock fight we had in LA. But we'll take a break. We'll talk about that in a second. The NBA playoffs are here and you can turn crossovers into cash with Fandle. Just visit fandle.com slash BS right now. Place a $5 bet and you'll get an instant $150

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In Wyoming, 800-522-4700. In West Virginia, visit 1800gambler.net. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this. It's game day. All the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers

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The Hawks beat Miami. Miami, the zombie heat that were looming as the nemesis, the Michael Myers, you have to cut their head all the way off and make sure it rolls down the stairs before you know they're dead team. And even today, they're down 24 to Atlanta. They start crawling back and it's like, you gotta be fucking kidding me. They're going to win. This is the heat. This is what they do. And then something strange happened. They didn't win and they got their asses kicked. They got really, really bullied by this Atlanta team that I wouldn't have put on my bully list. Bam Adebayo looked terrible. That was about as bad as I've seen him in a game like that, maybe ever, the Trey Murray combo was pretty effective. Trey still can't guard anybody, but offensively, they were pretty effective.

And they just got their butts kicked. And now they're in this situation, the Heat, where they're going to play the winner of Chicago-Toronto. I don't love the chances for them. Even in Miami, it's not like they have a great home court advantage. There's a stat, they're 20 games under covering against the spread this year.

They were 19 in the regular season and they didn't cover it today. I just think over and over again, we've overvalued the heat. Raheem did this on the Winger Gambling Show. The Hawks were plus five. And Raheem is like, I don't get it. This should be like a two-point line.

If there's regular season, there's like this weird heat bias that's creeped into this line and how we perceive the heat. And then you see today where they just stunk. And I'm guilty of this too. I feel like I'm overrating them constantly. Did the heat just suck, KOC? I think with the heat, you always assume that Jimmy Butler is going to turn into 40-minute per game guy scoring 30-plus points per game. That's what you assume. I think that's part of

it. You say that the zombie Heat, like Kyle Lowry has 33 points. He did his job. He had a career season high with the 33 coming off the bench. It's just they didn't get what they needed from Jimmy Butler or Bam Adebayo, and those are the two guys that I think you expected from. Clint Capella completely punked Bam. He punked everybody on the Heat for that matter. Yeah, he did. I felt like watching Miami, PJ Tucker, love him or think he's average or however your PJ Tucker perspective is.

It seemed like such a downgrade from miami on defense to go from tucker last year against the hawks in the first round to having like tyler hero max strew some of these smaller players on the back line because with miami they're playing you know you can play drop coverage um you can play blitz but then you if you're pressuring on the outside, you have such a small back line. If you're switching screens, which they did a lot of the time, then you're leading the cross matches. And regardless of what you did, Clint Capella, eight offensive rebounds, 21 total boards. He just was destroying everybody, Bam included. But primarily though,

I just felt like Miami's lack of size became such a problem for them at containing penetration and containing Capella on the boards. And that's why against Chicago or Toronto, that's going to be the key to that game on Friday. They signed Kevin Love as a buyout. I'll take the L. I didn't understand why Cleveland was buying him out.

I just don't fundamentally understand when playoff teams buy guys out if they're not going to get anything for them. And you never know. Somebody could get hurt. It's like, why would they do this? And they must have thought he was shot. And he shows up in Miami,

and here's a game where they need rebounding. This is a guy who led the league in rebounding, who used to be one of the best rebounders I've ever seen in person. Obviously, at a different point in his career, he played three minutes in this game. You get nothing from him. Cody Zeller played four minutes.

Oladipo, who is one of their big summer free agency, oh, we got to bring him back. He played nine minutes. It looks like his career, basically, I think it might be a wrap at this point. He's been in the league since 2013. He's going down the line. There's just not enough talent

in a lot of the moves that they made. Lowry specifically, even though he was good in this game, that was their big move. He was good offensively. I don't know about defensively, but for them to just completely whiff against this Hawks team that has been kind of thrown together. It's got a new coach.

He's trying new things. I thought it was really embarrassing. They're old, Bill. Cross the roster. I mean, they look like they're ready to join Haslam in retirement. Wait a second. Are we on Blow It Up Watch, KFC? Is this what you're telling me?

Do I need to buy some TNT I think it's worth you know considering If you're Miami If you're Jimmy Butler I think it's worth thinking about Like where can I go now Where is this team actually going What moves can be made this offseason to fix this

Because I mean They're old Kevin Love, I don't even know if he can dunk anymore. Doesn't look like he's leaving his feet on the one rebound that he did grab or attempted to grab in the first half.

I don't know. I just don't know what the solutions are from Miami and the fact that the Hawks of all teams completely just out-led out muscled them you know you got to give Quinn Snyder credit for some of the schemes they put out there you know throwing out zone in the first half you know switching everything one to five on butler's all you got to give credit to Atlanta from like a scheme perspective and the way the player is

executed but also I, Miami just looked crappy. And that doesn't bode well for them. Even if they win Friday's game to get the 8th seed, they're going to get completely roasted by the Bucs in the first round. Just completely destroyed. That's the thing. At least against

the Celtics, they have a history of rising to the occasion against the Celtics, especially Butler. Milwaukee, you're drawn dead. You're going into the hand with a three and a two. It's four. No chance in that series. Yeah, it's a wrap.

So in a weird way, they won't do this, but the Dallas Mavericks, the new model we've created with the Dallas Mavericks, let's just punt on the playoffs entirely and take a shit on competitiveness. Miami's almost better off if they lose to Chicago. And by the way, Milwaukee's better off if Miami beats Chicago or Toronto.

I think Chicago's a five-point underdog in that game. And I think Chicago's better than Toronto. Yeah. To me, that's a pick-em. I think that's a toss-up game. And I would much rather in the fourth quarter have DeRozan and Levine against anyone on that Toronto side. Huh?

I'm surprised it's five. I mean, that bowl game is fifth and defensive rating this year. And like Caruso, he belongs on all defensive ballots this year. Vucevic, you know, I ripped him at the beginning of the season for some terrible defense he played, but he's panned out pretty well. Despite losing Lonzo Ball and not having him back, their defense has figured out a lot of things.

I picked Chicago to get the eighth seed. I didn't think Atlanta would beat Miami, but I picked Chicago to get the eighth seed. I'll stand by that still facing Miami on Friday if they beat the Raptors. What did you learn about the Hawks in that game today? I mean, I think, you know, I just said it with Quinn Snyder's adjustments.

You know, that defense, the way they played and switched up different defenses depending on Miami lineups was very impressive. You know, was very impressive. They play fast. They have the top time of possession ever since he took over as head coach on offense. They feel like the offense moves a bit more crisp. It's still not what you would hope for, or I'm sure what you would see from him next season

after he's able to install more of the concepts that they had in Utah to get Donovan Mitchell going towards the ball with a lot of weave concepts. I don't know. I think with Atlanta, Bill, Quinn Snyder, the scheme difference tonight was the number one takeaway for me in addition to Clint Capella just absolutely being destructive as he has been for the last five, six weeks. Well, the irony is they get to play the Celtics who have won their last five, who won off

against the Hawks, who won all three against them this year, looked really comfortable against the Hawks. It's a bad matchup for the Hawks. They have multiple guards to throw at the Hawks, two guards. They can slash and kick the shit out of them. I mean, you even saw today Miami Miami was just attacking Trey Young. Who I had KFC in my first team, all-know defense,

all-NBA ballot. I handed in him. I had Luca. Who else was on there? I can't remember. Him and Luca were really the two co-MVPs of the all-know defense team. Well, they're the captains of the team, right?

Yeah, they're the captains. Ironically traded for each other once upon a time but all the guards boston has that they can just throw on against trey and make them work keep putting them and stuff and then the other real advantage would be the hawks the rebounding thing but that's another thing that boston's really good at like they have size they box out, their wings rebound, and that's just not going to be an issue for them. And then on the flip side, this is just a really nice Tatum matchup. And it's a nice Jalen Brown

matchup too. He's always had a little bird in his saddle against Atlanta for obvious reasons because I always thought every time he played them, it was kind of like batting his eyelashes at them for down the road in free agency. But it's just a good matchup for the South. So instead of having to worry about Kyle Lowry

pulling Tatum down from behind and dislocating his elbow or God only knows, now it'll just be like an up and down offensive series that I think is really going to benefit the Celtics. I'm with you there with Boston. I think both these, regardless of who Milwaukee faces, is the one versus eight, and then Boston facing Atlanta. I don't think this game, this series, is going to be close at all.

With Atlanta, you saw Miami in the second half. Tyler Harrow comes out and starts attacking Trae Young. Miami, remember that Trae Young is a player on the Atlanta Hawks who's worth attacking. Boston, they're going to roll out lineups with five guys who can create offense. And that's what makes the Celtics such a threat to win the NBA Finals. They can beat you and create offense in so many different ways and pick on mismatches in order to get into their offense

or create man advantages in the half court. So I think for Boston in this series, also with Clint Capella, I mean, we talked about his rebounding. He was excellent defensively as well. He's one of the reasons why Jimmy Butler struggled, why he was 6-19. I watched back the clips after the game. I believe he defended like five or six of those 13 missed shots by Jimmy Butler right in the area, causing a lot of the misses around the game. I believe he defended like five or six of those 13 missed shots by Jimmy Butler right in the area, causing a lot of the misses around the basket. And again, for the

Celtics, better size of Bam Adebayo, more diversity with their types of scorers and the ways they can attack you, and they can space out Clint Capella, pulling him out of the paint in ways that he just couldn't with Bam Adebayo in the game. I think it's going to be really rough for Atlanta against Boston. Really, really, really major, major gift for the Celtics. The baggage of a Miami series and team that it just feels like they've played over and over again and have just had too many battles with. Great stuff. Does any of what happened today change

what you were thinking about big picture, how the playoffs are going to unfold? Like the Celtics having an easier first round series potentially. Where'd you stand on Philly-Brooklyn, by the way? I think Philly's going to win the series because everyone just says Philly penciled into that one do you think that series is going to be as easy for Philly as it looks

because Raheem made a good point on his podcast today Harden has not looked the same since he tweaked his leg in that Chicago series you know whether he's just pacing himself for the playoffs I don't know but that is a storyline that I think we got to watch in this, in this Brooklyn series.

Cause they're going to have a bunch of wings to throw at him and make his life difficult. Um, do you give them any chance? Well, I mean, we're talking earlier, Bill about LeBron and like how he looks like Harden and his health to me

is the biggest story of all the star players. He just does not look like the same guy right now. And that makes me feel really pessimistic about Philly in the second round. I still think they'll get by Brooklyn in large part because of their defense and Brooklyn's inability to score against Philadelphia. But I do think the Sixers and specifically Joel Embiid, the Nets defense, they're going to be pressuring. They're going to be doubling. They switch more than anybody with all their size and length and versatility. Brooklyn's going to be a really good test for what Embiid's going to have to get through against Boston in the second round, considering the fact that Harden's limited and the Nets

are going to show the template to try to contain him, throw him off. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Nets steal one or two in the series for that reason. Unless Harden is able to bounce back and looks like his total self, then that changes everything. But Embiid's really going to be tested in the series because Brooklyn in their past matchups really threw everything at him. And Boston could potentially do the same thing with their similar versatility. And if Philly were to get to the conference finals and potentially face the Bucs, same thing there. So for Philadelphia, this is going to be a real

test for them and for Joel Embiid to get through. What's your gun to the head finals pick? Bucs winning it. Don't do it. Don't say the Warriors. Don't do it. Don't say the Warriors. I'm going gonna go with the Suns

Bucs over Suns in the finals I mean the West the West pick is tough I still need to I still need to think more about the West

but I'm picking the Bucs regardless of who it is in the West I have I'm staying with my preseason pick which was Bucs Nuggets I actually like the Nuggets a little chip on the shoulder right now,

because they had the one seed locked up for a month. They didn't play that well. And I think now everybody's just looking for any other team to pick. And meanwhile, they have home court for the entire West run. You know, Chris Paul, age 38, round two. Not the easiest series for him. Plus, now we know with Denver round one, they're not going to have to face the Lakers.

So it'll be either Minnesota, OKC, or New Orleans. They're going to beat all those teams. And then round two, that's... I'd rather have the Phoenix bloodbath in round two than round three. I want to catch them when Phoenix is still kind of getting used to all playing with each other versus as it's starting to come along as the playoffs go. So I like that spot for them.

The flip side of that, though, Bill, is second round. Like Chris Paul, there's a better chance he's tired and hurt, fatigued by the third round than the second round. If you're Phoenix. Yeah, that's fair. a chance he's tired and hurt, fatigued by the third round and the second round for Phoenix. I just think the Suns, they're going to kill that drop coverage with all their pull-up shooters. It's very possible we could have

Milwaukee-Cleveland. We could have Boston-Philly. We could have Lakers-Golden State. And we could have Phoenix-Den State. And we could have Phoenix, Denver. And that would be our final four matchups.

And all four of those matchups would be awesome. And Cleveland... Cleveland is the wild card for me because they do have a good defense. They do have a guy who's not going to be afraid in the game like the one we just watched, that Lakers-Minnesota game. Mitchell will not be afraid in the game. Like the one we just watched at Lakers, Minnesota game,

like Mitchell will not be afraid in games like that. And we'll take all the big shots. They have Garland who can create shots too. There's some mobile stuff that they were really tapping into second half of the season. So I feel like they're going to be able to get shots that they like. And I think they can get stops. It's just,

they have guys who haven't, you know, ever been in a big game and that would be the, the catch. But I do like the Knicks ratchet, but you know, the fact that Randall, we don't even know if he's going to come back. Like that to me, that feels like a way bigger subplot than, uh, than maybe people would be like, Oh, well, Randall be back by whatever. It's like, they need him all seven games healthy to have even a chance against Cleveland, especially with Okoro. I thought defensively,

the stuff we were seeing from him, and there were certain lineups when basically the two guards with Okoro and Allen and Mobley, that's a really good five if Okoro is even making 35% of his threes. I don't know. Cleveland is the one I want to see it.

I think the Knicks will be a nice test going into MSG. But I do think there's some real upside with that team. I don't think they'll beat Milwaukee, but I think they'll throw some haymakers. You know what I mean? I mean, I think Cleveland, I said this on Beyond the Arc on Tuesday with Waz. If you're looking at finals bets, they're, I think, plus 4,200 right now. I think Cleveland's by far the best value bet. I wouldn't pick him to win the finals, but they believe the number is still over 40 percent since early december on three pointers granted it's a low volume he has at least been consistent for

you know five months now cleveland has the pieces and they can play different ways they have two bigs they can play with one of those biggest they need to or go double bigs and still generate offense with ease they've been a top 10 offense over the last three months as well so cleveland has the pieces they just don't have the experience and like i think i think that's really like the only serious argument against cleveland there's a lack of experience but they they no doubt have the pieces on paper were you okay with me voting mobile for a defensive player of the year i had him second so i didn didn't have a big problem with it, no. You had Triple J? I had Triple J,

and then Mobley, and then Giannis. I was leaning on versatility, flexibility. So, Giannis told Cleveland.com in November about Mobley. He can be better than me. I don't see why he can't.

It's up to him. He has the skill set to be a very, very good player, blah, blah, blah. If he takes this seriously, he's going to be great. I didn't average what he is in my second season, so he's already ahead of me. It's in his hands, blah, blah, blah. I always think it's interesting when the greats

kind of target the younger guy and they're like, watch out for this guy. I thought that was a good sign for Moby. But Moby versus Giannis would be, that's a good one. We should mention, it was intimidating to talk to you now that you're a TV star on FanDuel TV,

beyond the arc. Tell people at 9.30 on Tuesdays. So explain what the show is. So 9.30 a.m., 6.30 Pacific on FanDuel TV, hosting a show called The Ringer Beyond the Arc, NBA breakdowns every week.

This week's show is more of like a conversation with Waz, podcasts on TV, but future weeks we'll be doing some more NBA video breakdowns like I used to do on The Void, kind of like Jake Howell Mann does

for the YouTube channel as well. We'll do some of that for Beyond the Arc as well. And plus, the show can also be viewed on the Spotify app by searching Beyond the Arc with Kevin O'Connor is the way to find it on the Spotify app. But it's fun. Fandu with The Ringer

Beyond the Arc. You didn't even say you're shirtless on this show, which I thought was a really interesting choice. Yeah, yeah. Trying to beefcake it up. I've lost 17 pounds in the last 110 days or so. So yeah, I'm trying to show off

the improving dad bod. Just wearing a tank top? Yeah. Like Rusillo? Just wear all the Rusillo outfits. There was a Rusillo pod recently. I saw that video. He looked like a Boston dude

just like a tank and I was stepping in a Boston red socks hat it was awesome he's really stepping into it it's playoff time

this is Rusillo time right now alright we can hear KFC on the mismatch as well and we can read them on theringer.com thanks for staying

up late with me thanks Bill this episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer.

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Ugh. This message is brought to you's learned. Okay. Give it up. Give what up? Really? Really, really. This message is brought to you by Metrolinx. Alright, my friend Wesley Morris is here. He writes for the New York Times. He's won two Pulitzers. We worked together at Grantland. He pops on here every once in a while to talk about movies and pop culture.

We both really like the movie Air. And I think there's an Affleck conversation to be had, but it was interesting talking to you and some other people about it. I was trying to think like, all right, why do I like this movie?

It wasn't like a particularly incredible movie, but it hit me the right way. And Juliette Lipman, our friend, was talking about there was a TV show that she didn't want to watch on one of the streaming shows recently. And she's like, you know what? I'm tired of unhappy TV.

I'm tired of unhappy characters. I'm tired of flawed people and antiheroes. I just want like a happy show. And when she said that, I was like, this is why I liked air. You know what? We went back to 1984. They just tried to have to sign this guy who had a chance to be great.

Everybody kind of rallied around. They tried to pull it off and they did. And we won in the end. And it was just like this old school movie. And I just left happy. Yeah. Is this the era of we need more happy movies? Is that stupid to say?

Uh, I think the answer to that question is yes. I think the thing that really won me over with this movie was how little I wanted to see it. And I heard you talking to Ben Affleck and Matt Damon on your show. And, you know, those are two people whose work I have mostly always liked. Even when the movies don't work, they do. And in Ben Affleck's case, Ben Affleck often works despite himself. Right.

Where I just felt... And there's the other sort of modern contemporary sort of moral exhaustion problem where you've got a movie with Jason Bateman, Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, Chris Messina, and it's about Michael Jordan sneakers. Like what the fuck? Um, so I just, and Ben Affleck's directing it. I just did not, I was not excited to see this thing. And almost within five minutes of sitting in my seat while it's on,

I'm just like, okay. I'm having a good time. The vibe feels right. And I think the vibe, the thing that I think makes us feel good in some ways, especially if you're older,

but I kind of, I've now spoken to many people who've seen this movie who've paid their own money to see it. And like, you know, different generations of people. And I think that the vibe is 80s, right? Like it is set in 84,

but Affleck has made this movie as light as a movie from 1984. Right? Where the consequences, the stakes are low. It's not trying to do anything terribly important. And yet there's a kind of sneaky depth to it too. Where its smartness is very unpronounced. And the first inkling that you have, well, there's a couple things.

I don't exactly, I'm not going to say which one is first. But the moment I knew I was in good hands is the scene where Sonny Vaccaro, who Matt Damon plays, he's the NBA talent scout for Nike. He goes down to North Carolina to see Dolores Jordan, Michael Jordan's mother, who's played by Viola Davis. And there's a moment where she welcomes him into the house.

It's clear that James Jordan is not going to be a major figure. He is a doting husband and father and a car repairman, apparently. Like he's outside in front of the house fixing the car or maybe washing it. I don't remember. But he welcomes Matt Damon's character,

Sonny Vaccaro, into the house. And what she says when they get to the backyard is essentially like this land is four generations of jordans and it says it's almost like a throwaway line but what it says is that this movie knows that there is a history of black people and what she means by that could be anything right it could it clearly is that we come from, we come from, we come from some relationship to enslavement, but we're not here to talk about that right now.

But I want you to know what the stakes are very quietly. And they just sit here and have this respectful conversation about what Nike has to offer the Jordans as a fan, Michael Jordan as a, as a, as a client and the Jordans as a family. And Jordan as a client, and the Jordans as a family. And there's like three or four scenes like that in that movie where the touch is so light. And you're just like, okay, I'm down for wherever,

wherever this movie has taken me, I'm willing to go. And it just gets all the spots really well. I was glad you liked it. I mean, I'm the target audience. I grew up with all the posters that are in the office and, you know, the whole thing. I was surprised they were able

to breathe new life into a story that we just saw laid out in The Last Dance. Yeah, but only briefly, right? Yeah, but it's just like the beats, but then the way they were able to pull in basically everybody who would like this movie

isn't just me, right? My wife would like this movie. My daughter would like this movie. That's also a rare thing. There's been... Matt Bellany wrote for Puck about what constitutes a hit in 2023 because Amazon initially wasn't going to put this movie

in the theater. And then they said, fuck it. And it made like $20 million. They spent, I don't know, $110, $130, whatever it was. Really? I think all in to buy the whole production and everything about it. For them, once it's on Amazon, literally everybody's going to watch it.

It's one of those movies that everyone in my life will see it at some point over the next four months. So I don't know what's the price of that. I don't even know how to put a price on that. The whole point, if you're Amazon, you're making these movies, you want everyone to see them. But I think what stood out for me is, and this is one of the reasons you came on, is it's just a really well-crafted movie. And I thought it was the right time to

have an aflac conversation because this is one of the strangest careers strangest successful careers yeah we've had like when i was growing up the writer directors were clint and robert redford you mean the actors? I'm sorry, the actor directors. The actor directors, it's a pretty rare thing for somebody to try to do both, right? At some point, you got sucked into the other side.

Like Ron Howard was a great TV actor and then eventually became a movie director and just stopped acting. Rob Reiner, same thing. Great movie actor, stopped directing. Pete Berg was not a great actor, but he was a successful actor who then was like, I'm going to direct. And rarely did you see somebody try to shadow both worlds. Warren Beatty did it and really tried to control his own IP.

For the most part, this usually goes wrong. I feel like it's gone wrong for George Clooney. I think the stuff that he's picked and directed just hasn't been good work. Affleck has directed five movies and four of them are incredibly satisfying from a mainstream standpoint. Yes.

Which is the other piece of this. Three of them were hits. Three of them were legitimate hits and rewatchable hits. And Gone Baby Gone. Air is a hit. I don't care what you say. Air is going to be a hit. The Town was 100% a hit.

Argo won the Oscar. And Gone Baby Gone was really respected. Usually when you see the actors direct, it's always like the Sean Penn doing like these weird indie movies that he's going to direct. Things like that. The combination of,

or Clint. Like Clint will do a mainstream one. Then it'll be something a little off the beaten path. Then it'll be another mainstream one. movies that he's going to direct, things like that. The combination of, or Clint, like Clint will do a mainstream one, then it'll be something a little off the beaten path. Then it'll be another mainstream one. Affleck's just doing mainstream hits. He's batting 80% out of the five he's done while also being in all these other movies. What career has been like this? Not to mention all the ups and downs that we talked about in the podcast with Damon, but who are the doppelgangers for this? I mean, the only person who really makes sense is Warren Beatty, right? Where there's a kind of ambition, there's an obvious ambition to make

mainstream commercial movies that also kind of speak to something in some way. But Beatty, at some point, I mean, this can happen with Ben Affleck too. I think the conflation of Beatty's political persona, you know, this idea that he, you know, people thought he should be running for office or maybe that's a thing he believed himself. Like once you get to bulworth which i think is an interesting movie that also its problem is that the person who made it kind of was a black have you watched okay so bulworth is basically a movie Warren Beatty directed in, God, what year was that? 96? 98. 98. Okay. And, you know, he plays this disgraced, is he a senator running for president? I can't remember the exact line. He's running for president, yeah. somehow in South Central Los Angeles. And of course, I believe this is right. And at some point,

Halle Berry is basically offering him cover in the hood while he goes gangsta. It's just a weird... It's not bad, actually, having rewatched it. Do you want me to read you the IMDb explanation of it? Oh, please do. A suicidally disillusioned liberal politician puts a contract out on himself and takes the opportunity to be bluntly honest with his voters by affecting the rhythms and speech of hip hop, music and culture. Yes.

Okay. Well, there you go. I completely forgot the sort of utter minstrelsy of it. But, you know, in a weird way, that movie kind of knew what it was. I don't think Ben Affleck has that movie in him, kind of, thank God. Yeah. But I think that the closest person

in terms of the way, in terms of the Hollywood-ness of his priorities as a director, in terms of what he finds interesting entertainment-wise, is Warren, is, you know, Ben Affleck has that in common with Warren Beat.

So Warren Beat, he did Heaven Can Wait in 78. He did Reds in 81. That was his big Oscars push. Dick Tracy, which is a mess. And then Boatwork.

But it was a hit and there's some really good stuff in it. Yeah. Heaven Can Wait is probably the closest to what I could totally see being a Ben Affleck movie. Like I can see that's right. That's a well done movie with really good actors, pretty relatable presence.

And he gets to be in it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's weird, though, Bill, because the first. Maybe that that for that opening sequence in Argo, that could just, that could, that movie could have gone in a totally different direction and been read. Right. Do you know what I mean? Not, not literally that movie,

but it could have had that kind of ambition. Um, I mean, you know, the, the sort of big Hollywood epic biographical, instead it goes in this much more interesting, um, uh, Hollywood movie-making direction.

But it never loses sight of the political stakes of the hostage crisis, right? And what Iran wanted and what Iranians wanted. I don't know. That was a hard movie to pull off and it mostly works. And again, that's

a movie that I can imagine Beatty having done in a weird way. And he looks like Beatty in that movie too, Ben Affleck. Well, he'll definitely get the weird hairdos, which Beatty wasn't afraid to do. If you break up Affleck's career

into chunks, it becomes one of the most fascinating careers anyone's ever had. I would say, yes. He's from 93 to 97. He's a struggling actor. And the big ones he was in were School Ties, Days and Confused, and Mallrats,

which all became pretty big pop culture movies. Days and Confused, he plays O'Bannon, which is just a really funny, great character in a movie that I think has lived on in a really nice way. So then from 97 to 2000, a period of four years, he makes nine movies and I put seven of them in bold because I think seven of them are really good and maybe even better than that.

He does Chasing Amy. Okay. Good Will Hunting. Yes. Armageddon. Yeah, Shakespeare in Love, which won the Oscar. Now, greater Harvey Weinstein forced him to vote for it. Then Forces of Nature, Dogma, Slight Misses, Boiler Room, Reindeer Games, Bounce. I will still defend Reindeer Games and Bounce. I like both of those movies. And that's all in four years. This is the part where we have

to talk about what was frustrating about him at the same time, right? Because the thing, he was, I mean, secretly my favorite thing in Shakespeare in Love, honestly. I mean, the idea that all those people got nominated for Oscars, but not him. He's the lead male part in the Oscar-winning movie. Pouty boy prince. I kind of liked him. I mean, I loved him in that movie,

but it always seemed to me that he really has been torn this whole time about whether he was, whether he was going to be a, I don't know how to put this. He would, he was an actor who I think never really believed he would ever be a movie star, right an actor who I think never really believed he would ever be a movie star. Right? I don't think he ever believed any of the things that have happened to him

were going to happen to him. Because he doesn't seem to enjoy any of it. Do you know what I mean? Right. I think that this has all been an amazing accident for Ben Affleck and every day he wakes up,

I think, like, you know, the, the part of him that is connected to the business end of Hollywood and not, you know, the human person, father, husband, that sort of thing. Not, not that, but I think there's a part of Ben Affleck that wakes up every day and is like, I can't believe this is happening to me. I cannot believe this is my life. I cannot believe I'm the kind of person who people want to take pictures of. I can't believe I'm the kind of person people want to pay money to see. And I think that

in the beginning when he wasn't a movie star and he was just a guy who showed up in movies, he was way more interesting and interested in being there. I think he wanted to be a character actor. Yeah, think about Good Will Hunting. That's a great performance.

Who gets the best part of that movie? It's Damon. Now, you could say, no, no, this part made more sense for Damon. You could go through all the whatever in it, but I think Affleck was totally comfortable being the number two guy in that movie and being the sidekick because that's probably

how he saw himself. Whereas Damon, I think, from the early 90s was like, I think I can be one of the big actors and was always thinking it that way. I think you're right on the, Affleck kind of stumbling into being the A-plus lister and kind of being in disbelief as it's happening, which leads to some of the things that happen

in his personal life, all that stuff. When you can't, it's the classic imposter syndrome, right? When you think like, I can't believe this all happened to me. All of a sudden, by 2001, he's in Pearl Harbor. He's doing Changing Lanes with Sam Jackson, Some of All Fears, Daredevil.

And now it's starting to go the other way. And he's Geely, Paycheck, Jersey Girl, and then Rock Bottom and Surviving Christmas, which was the story Damon told on the pod about what Patrick Whitesell, his agent saying, this is going to be Rock Bottom. We're going to build up from this. We're going to climb back up. All that's four years. So he goes from that four year stretch I mentioned earlier, 97 to 2000, where he goes seven for nine with movies, like in a real way.

So then he goes, oh, for eight, unless you count some of all fears. You, it was a hit, but he looked miserable. Yeah.

I don't, it wasn't a hit because of him. It was a hit because of the franchise, but right. Right. And then it's rock bottom. And then he has this next phase for four years from 06 to 09.

He's in Man About Town, Clerks 2, Hollywoodland, Smoking Aces. He's just not that into you and State of Play. Wow. But he directs Gone Baby Gone during that. And it's like, well, maybe this is what he is. Then it flips again in 2010 to 15. The Town writes and directs stars argo wins the oscar he makes

to to the wonder and runner runner whatever and then gone girl where he's the lead in this awesome fincher movie and that leads to the next wave of what happened the last six years but um by my count he's been in 18 movies that I thought were either, worst case you could say, are legitimately good to very good to even like borderline great. 18 movies plus directed four of the five. I don't know. That's a way better career than I think people realize

or give him credit for. Not to sound like an apophagist. Well, I mean, in a weird way i think that he is owed a closer look i think and i think his work warrants inspection in some way i think that you go back and watch a lot of these movies you will be pleasantly surprised by how much better they are than you realize. Even the things that don't work. Like somebody had the good sense in 1999 or 2000 to cast him with opposite Sandra Bullock, right?

The movie is bad. Forces of Nature, I remember calling that like a really bad Skittles commercial. But there's something about him. He just seems so reluctant to give into the thing that a person like Sandra Bullock just naturally has, right? It is not naturally in him. The thing that Matt Damon so obviously effortlessly has, like, which is a complete comfort with himself to become other people. I think there's always this struggle

watching Ben Affleck commit to something, right? Commit to the character. To get lost and apart. Yeah, he's rarely ever done that. And I would say the thing about that last stretch that you mentioned, which is basically it begins with Gone Girl and kind of brings us to 2023.

I have all those. You want those quick? Yeah. Batman versus Superman. The Accountant, which I thought was good. He's really good in that. Live by Night, which he's still pissed off about. He thinks it's the best movie ever directed. Justice League.

Triple Frontier, which I will fight. I can't believe that hasn't been on rewatchables yet. Last Thing You Wanted. I don't remember that one. The Way Back, which I'll come back to in a second. The Last Duel, Tender Bar, Deep Water, which is bizarre. And Air. And then this movie, Hypnotic,

that's coming out that everybody says is going to be really good. The Way Back, I think that Dee Rees movie that's based on the Joan Didion story. And, you know, there's something about, I just want to talk about Ben Affleck as a physical presence, right? He's very tall.

He seems like he played a sport at some point. I don't know if this is true. He seemed like he played a sport at some point. I don't know if this is true. He seemed like he could have been a football player. His back is as wide as a set of French doors. You put him in a suit and

of course he makes sense as a superhero. He's got that lantern jaw. He's got that lantern jaw. He's got that big, you know, V-shaped body when he's in shape. And when he's out of shape, which is why he was so good in Gone Girl, it kind of like, it accesses some kind of depression. Do you know what I mean? Like where he's stooped and his posture is bad.

He seems lapsed in some way. I just think that he, at this age, what is he? He's basically, he's, you know, he's like young old, he's 50. And I think he is finally learning, you know, in middle age, how to be comfortable in himself.

And I think that whatever it is he believes he is as a human being who is going to be famous as an actor, it has something to do with being unhappy. Do you know what I mean? It has something to do with acting depression and acting kind of being stuck, being trapped, being washed up. I don't know if that's a result of all the shit that happened around the original time that he and Jennifer Lopez got together,

the response to Gigli, the people rooting against him. But I feel like all of that negative energy kind of serves his acting, his movie star acting, where he's the star of the movie, but even in air where he's playing Phil Knight as a person who, I don't know what the real Phil Knight is like, but this guy, I don't know what yoga is doing for this person. I don't know if it's keeping him alive, like actually keeping Phil Knight from killing himself, but this guy seems like he's ready to jump out a window at any minute.

And I think that Ben Affleck's access to this darkness that doesn't actually ruin the movie or darken the movie in some way. He can adjust the setting so it's funny in a movie like Air and really kind of heavy and resonant and you're rooting for him in a movie like Gone Girl

where that character in the book is doing a different, the impersonation of that guy by Ben Affleck in the movies just kind of makes you feel for, is his name Nick? I think his name is Nick. Yeah. Nick Dunn.

You really, you really like that guy. You feel for that guy in a way that I don't think you would have. Um, if, if another, you feel for him, but he also,

there's a little bit of a dark side with that guy too, right? Yes. He attacks the Rosamund Pike character twice in the movie. Right. That's fair. Which I think the sweet spot for him has always been leading man guy

but maybe there's one thing slightly off. Yes. There's a darkness or there's something beaten up about him or something. He's had if you look at the leading man performances, Chasing Amy, which is just an absolutely, unbelievably fascinating movie to go back and rewatch,

which I did a year ago. And he's great in it. The movie's pretty flawed, but really interesting. The performances are really good. But you take that movie, you take what he does in the town where he's just traditional action leading man. He's fucking awesome in that movie. I think that is

like top three Ben Affleck's that is definitely in the top three. Has to be. Has to be. And then what he does in the way back, which is completely different. I don't know. I think he has more layers to the performances than I think he gets credit for.

And I also think like, if you're going best careers last 30 years, he's in the combo. He doesn't win. But if you're doing like first team All-NBA, second team All-NBA, third team All-NBA, he's in first team or second team All-NBA for the career when you throw in the directing. Because the directing is like, fucking directed a movie that won an Oscar. Not to mention

going four for five on that front. So I just don't think people think of him that way at all. Maybe we don't think about art like sports in the same way in general. But I do feel like the narrative with him is always what he overcame. And when he hit rock bottom, a lot of the stuff we talked about in the podcast, but I actually think he's been way more successful than people seem to realize. I don't think it's really, I mean, I think that success kind of speaks for itself. I think it's telling, it's more indicative of the moment we are in that you and I have to sort of make the case for a person who doesn't need a case made for them. Totally. Because the tabloid stuff has basically eaten him alive.

He knows it. Yeah. And I think that, you know, I'm going to just- Well, hold on. That's a key point because the tabloid stuff, it seems like it's really affected people's ability to assess the kind of stuff he's doing correctly. Oh, absolutely. It's been overshadowing it really since the late 90s. And I think that there's a way, I don't know. I'm just going to be very honest.

I mean, I don't typically do this in public, but I'm going to say that I was one of those people who, when I found out that the two of them were, that Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck were in public together, I just kind of felt like it I don't know these people. Yeah. But, you know, I did meet Ben Affleck once. I interviewed him for a story when I worked at the Boston Globe. And I got to, there was a lot that I got to see that, you know,

just had no place in the story. He just seems like a very nice person. And I think there's a way in which, and this is funny to say about a movie, about a person who appears on camera a lot, I don't think he photographs well. I don't think that he, I don't think he comes off well

in a situation where he can't speak or be personable in some way, right? He's a very chatty, smart, personable guy. And I think something about liking him and liking her, I'm speaking for myself here, but I think other people probably feel this way too. There was something about whatever happened after that movie came out and Jennifer Lopez was like one of the most famous people on the planet at that time. And

something toxic between the rise of tabloid, you know, the Us Weekly. I mean, these are things that the two of them talked about when they were on your show. But I mean, I really believe it. There was this amazing moment that he just had the misfortune of being present for.

And whatever the public glare did to that relationship, obviously, they never forgot each other. Yeah, the public glare almost pushed them apart when they never should have been pushed apart. They never probably should have broken up. Look, I'm not going to sit here and be like, you know, his life is probably different for the better after they break up.

You know, I mean, I think that, I think he meets Jennifer Garner after this and he becomes a dad. But I think that there's something about reaching an age where you can be honest with yourself about who you are and what you want and who you can be and what you've accomplished.

And you're just like, I'm doing what I want to do. And I no longer feel beholden to whatever the industry expectations of me were. And I don't know that he necessarily felt that. But look at all the movies he made. Look at all the choices that he made. This was a person who clearly was taking swings at every pitch and was like, I don't know what's going to happen here. Let's see.

Daredevil? Sure. Sign me up. You know, you want me to make a romantic drama with Gwyneth Paltrow? Yeah. Let's do it. I mean, he just, I don't

know. Runner, runner? By all means. Yes, I will act opposite Justin Timberlake in a gambling drama. I just think that, I don't know. There's a restlessness there. There's a kind of something being searched for. I mean, maybe it's as simple as like

the money was too good to say no to. I don't know. There's still a something approved thing with him too, which I've felt every time I've ever talked to him. Sure. I think when you take the hits that he took from 2000, 2004, combined with Matt being like, felt every time I've ever talked to him. Sure. I think when you take the hits that he took from 2000, 2004, combined

with Matt being like, oh, and they talked about this. They talked about this in my podcast. Oh, Matt's the good way to go. Don't go the other way. Don't go the Ben way. Ben's just grabbing paychecks. He literally made a movie called Paycheck. I think that starts

with Gone Baby Gone. Him really trying to prove, no, I actually care about the art. I think he's made some really good choices. If you just take his career from Gone Baby Gone on, that's a pretty amazing career. That's throwing aside the

previous 10 years. I think when you're talking about the best careers of the last 30 years, Leo's got to be probably, for the directors that Leo worked with and the batting average of movies that he's been in, he's got to be up there. Damon's got

to be up there, especially because he figured out that whole Bourne franchise. Are we talking about in that generation of actors? Yeah, I'm saying if you're just going last 30 years, I think denzel even though it's not fair to count him because you'd have to count he came 10 years earlier basically right that's what i was asking well denzel's the second third and fourth decades of his career as good as anybody you know but it's it's it's kind of a shorter list than i think

maybe we realize and in sports we're always trying to think about this stuff. And in pop culture, we don't as much. But I think to succeed for 30 straight years as an actor is really, really, really difficult. It's hard. It's hard. It's the list of people. Think about your guy, Sidney Poitier, where he peaks in 67. Right? Yeah.

He has one of the great movie years of all time. And five years later, like, you know, it's all of a sudden you couldn't get in a movie. Right. He's making what we would now call blaxploitation movies. I mean, but I would say the difference though, is that there was an industrial problem with Sidney Poitier, right? Well, true. But I'm just saying like, things can flip fast. Yes. And to put together 30 years as a movie actor is really...

Like, Barbra Streisand. She was probably the biggest female movie star of the 70s, right? Yes, hands down. So what happened? Yentl happened. Which is... I'm going to... Later this year, I'm going to write a story about,

Yentl is 40 years old, and I think it's the most important movie ever made by an American woman, period. Wow. And I think that, you know, I think that movie is, that movie, I don't think it ruined her, I don't think it ruined her career.

I do think it, I think the response to it, because that movie was a hit. You have to remember, that movie made a lot, I mean, it did well. It was not a bomb. But I think that the Hollywood response to it and I think the Jewishness

of it for certain Jews was it was kind of embarrassing to them. I think the gender stuff was too much, you know, I mean, she basically is, I mean, now we're on a, on a Yentl tangent, but I just think that movie is deep and, and it's light in the same way that, that like, that, that air is late, right? It's, it has a kind, it's so easy to watch. The songs are great. Um,y patinkin is hot amy

irving is hot barbara streisand and in as a boy is kind of sexy it there's just like there's so much happening in that movie and i think it scrambled a lot of people's situations at the time but the public still wanted to see barbaraand. And after that, the movie she makes after Yentl is nuts. Where she plays a woman on trial for basically killing a John. She's a prostitute in the movie. And anyway, I think that you named Poitier and Streisand. It's interesting because those are two people whose careers suffered because of racism and sexism. That's a good point.

Right? And if Ben Affleck is making the choices Ben Affleck is making and he's Will Smith, do you know what I mean? Like, you know, without, you know, pretty slap Will Smith. Was Warren Beatty ever the same after Ishtar? He was fine. He made Bugsy. He made, you know, his career. I mean, Dustin Hoffman was in Ishtar.

The person who suffered was Elaine May. They were fine. Elaine May's career was never the same after that. They were fine. What sucks is we're going to finish this pod and five minutes later I'm going to think of the perfect 70s or 80s doppelganger.

For Affleck? No, just for like a major, major, I mean, Ryan O'Neill was a major star and then it went sideways.

but I think he had, he had some off the set stuff I think going. But, I mean, Ryan O'Neill for seven, seven, eight years there was

one of the biggest A-list actors we had. And then all of a sudden he was making the Norman Malem movie and it was done. Well, think about Burt Reynolds. I mean, like, you know, there's a lot of people who don't... That's the best one.

Burt's the best one. Because you go from Deliverance all the way through to Sharky's Machine. And he's either the most famous actor or one of the three most famous actors. He's doing fucking Smokey and the Bandit. Driving around in a car. $200 million for it.

Yeah, and then in the mid-80s, it was done. Yeah, 30 years is hard to do. This is why Tom Cruise, you know, I mean, Tom Cruise doesn't count. He's a fucking alien.

Cruise is at 41 years. Yeah. I mean, actually risky business was 40 years ago. Uh, this summer, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Hmm. Wonder if that's going to end up on the rewatchables. I mean, it should, shouldn't it? It should. Yeah. You know what? I was scouting for the rewatchables. I mean, it should, shouldn't it? It should. You know what I was scouting for the rewatchables last night?

What? That was on that I couldn't sleep because the allergies, the pollen is so bad in LA that I'm probably going to die. This could be the last podcast. You sound great. Dressed to Kill was on, which I hadn't watched in a while. Oh, yes.

Which I love and I know all the beats too, but I just hadn't watched in a while. Oh, yes. Which I love and I know all the beats do, but I just hadn't watched in a while. That movie's off the hook. I mean, we kind of talked about it a little bit with Blowout. That movie's... I forgot A, how much I'm in love with Angie Dickinson

still, even though she's 91. But she's so great in that movie. But that museum scene is one of the most unique scenes I've ever seen in a movie. I don't even understand how it worked. When it ends, when she finally gets in the car, Yeah. it is, you don't know whether to like cry smoke laugh you don't know what it's unbelievable

it's unbelievable it's so good and then and then uh it's so obvious that that who the killer is is the killer i don't want to spoil it for anybody who never saw it but when you see it the second time i'm like oh my god how did they not? Anyway, there's some good, so I'm going to have to do that one at some point. Let's take a quick break and I want to talk succession really quickly with you. Okay. What does possible sound like for your business?

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All right. Since we have Wesley here, we have to talk about the most discussed television show, Succession, that we've had in a while. It has the championship belt right now. We cover on the Prestige TV podcast on Sunday nights. We did a Sunday nights episode, which was a biggie. I have not talked to you about Succession on Sunday nights. We did a Sunday nights episode, which was a biggie. Um, I have not talked to you about succession on the podcast. I know it checks a lot of your boxes, but, um, give us, give us the, uh, Wesley take on the show. Uh, I am one of these people, I should preface my

response to this by doing a classic me thing, which is to say that I don't think we know what satire is anymore. And I think when this show started, I think people thought it was a satire. And that might have been true. I just couldn't figure out what the joke was. And I think that it was a show that the people who were making it got a lot of money to play with. And they played with it.

The helicopters, the boats, all that office space. And the second season and the third, the second season, I thought it actually did become a satire. And the third season and these

first three episodes of this last season, I just, I am enjoying laughing with this show. And I just think that the writing on it is so good. The acting,

they've now cohered as a cast. I mean, this is not any groundbreaking, I'm not bringing up news by saying this, but I think these actors really know how to work with each other. And the things that drove me nuts about them in the first season, all the stuttering, all the tics, the kind of formlessness in their beings,

all of that, what I would describe as kind of uncertain acting and the reason that you were grateful for Haim Abbas and Brian Cox on the show is that their seasonedness their apparent seasonedness and their maturity gave the show a gravitas

that I was grateful was there and then in the second and third seasons I just felt like I loved watching the other actors learn these characters as instruments and get very, very good at playing them. So now we're watching, you know, Jeremy Strong and Kieran Culkin and Sarah Snook, and Alan Ruck.

They're virtuosic performers of these characters now. The guy who plays Cousin Greg, same thing. These are really good actors. All of the supporting guys, David Rashi, Peter Friedman, Dagmara Demakzik,

whose last name I just butchered. Don't forget J. Smith Cameron. J. Smith Cameron, by the way, one of my favorite, one of the great performances of the 2000s, this movie called Margaret with Anna Paquin. That movie is one of my favorite movies of the last 25 years.

She is amazing in that movie. So is Anna Paquin. So is everybody who's in it. She's so good on this show. Jerry is my favorite character on the show. I mean, I think she might be a lot of people's favorite character. How about Jerry dolled up at the wedding? I know.

Looking great, but then getting her feelings hurt, little quivering lip. I thought I was an elite Jerry last episode. I think that the thing about this show that became... I don't know about you, Bill, but I was like, many points during the, during the show's run, I have asked myself, why do I, why am I watching this show? Why am I, why know if you had this, but like, I was like, I was, I was kind of crying. Oh, well, you know, my, my wife, Carrie Simmons, who you love, she was devastated. She was,

she was, didn't just cry during the episode, but was upset for like a couple hours afterwards. Like she felt like one of her friends died. And meanwhile, this guy's a monster, but she was really affected by it. I actually found myself like getting like wet in the face. And I just was like, what the, what am I doing? What's happening right now? These people suck. I can't do this. It was an amazingly manipulative

in all the good ways show how they pulled it off because they swerved you. We talked about it on Sunday's pod. They named the show Connor's Wedding. This is a show that loves to have these big settings. So it's like, oh, Connor's Wedding is going to be amazing. I wonder if they're actually going to get married.

And they've done a wedding on the show before. And so you've done the wedding on the show and it's like, is Logan going to go or not? Oh, he's going to make Roman fire Jerry. Where's this going to go? And then they just swerved it in a way we were talking on the Sunday pod. Like, I just don't remember seeing a death like that on a show. They're usually abrupt or we see the person die or we find out after. It just wasn't like this where everything was in flux

and you're in flux with the characters. And it's also like, oh, is this going to be like episode one, season one where he doesn't die? Comes back. No, they didn't do it that way. Yeah, I mean, I think that dying

is different from death, right? Like there's something about the process of dying. And I don't mean like, like dying of cancer or something like that. I mean, like where, um, it's not like the last, you know, the final episode of six feet under where you're watching this sort of opera of death. Yeah. Um, it's sort of opera of death. Yeah. It's sort of this other thing where like he's, for our purposes,

I mean, I knew at some point, like clearly, okay, well, Logan's dead. But what the sort of brilliance of the episode is, you're watching these children respond in their own way.

You know, these actors are playing their instruments, right? And like, what does the key of grief look like on Shiv Roy as played by Sarah Snook? What is, what is, what is, what is, you know, what is Romulus Roy? What is Kieran Culkin going to do with that instrument in a moment of, of grief? We also don't, the other thing that's amazing is we get that one detail at the wedding where Connor freaks out about the cake. Right. And, and, and it's then explained that the cake is like, he was given all this cake when the mom got sent away

the loony cake yeah and that was such a logan detail right that detail was as much about as logan about much about logan as it was a father as it was about connor and you just are reminded because we don't really know everything that this guy did as a terrible dad. We just can see the kids. And, you know, I don't know if you know anybody who had a terrible father and messed the kids up, you know, with money. I do.

But I have seen it, and this is a fairly accurate representation. And the thing that sort of... We see it in professional sports all the time yeah i mean that's a great with the owners giving the yes giving the teams to their loser kids who can't handle it yes i think that there is something about watching them do it on the phone you know it was a it was a cell phone call and Tom is like holding the, I can hold the phone. I can hold the phone to the, to, to, to his ear and you guys can talk to him and they don't know what to say.

And you know, each one of them is like resisting. It's like a, like a grenade. The phone is at that point. And they're all just trying to like get rid of it. And yet they, they also want to fall on the grenade at the same time but they don't that conflict of like what do i say because it's not the dying part at all that is the i mean that's the trigger but they don't know what to say to this man when he was alive and sitting in there sitting in their presence but everything's a backhanded compliment too. Yeah. I mean, it's all a pose. Dad, I'm not going to forgive you. Yeah.

Oh my God. But I really hope you make it. Yeah. I mean, it was pretty rough. It was really amazing. I mean, as a person who's lost two parents and had to find things to say to them, not find. I mean, the things that come out in those moments, what they did was very different.

You know, that expression of grief, it was more like the sort of post-traumatic shock of his death is what they were acting. It wasn't the howling, you know, the thing that happens to lots of people when they lose someone they deeply love, or even if they have conflicted feelings about them, they're very close to, that howling, rageful, deep, you know, soul cleansing or soul clearing grief, that's not what was acted here. They went in a completely estranged direction like these

are people who don't even know themselves well enough to know the actors know the characters really well and the writers know the characters but the the characters themselves do not know themselves well enough to know how to handle the death of the patriarch. Well, and then on top of it, they're all coming to grips with the fact that they never got the relationship with him nearly to the point they ever wanted it to get to. And he died

when it was at the worst possible point for all of them. Yes. And I feel like Connor, you know, it's funny, my friend Brian McKenna and I were talking last week about that episode

and he said, you know, I don't know who has it worse, Connor Roy or Cameron Frye. And I was like, well, I mean, obviously Connor does

because at least Cameron had Ferris. Yeah. True. Cameron probably ended up being a billionaire. He's probably was like a tech programmer or something. Well, you asked, like you said, why do I like this show? And I don't, who knows? They have seven episodes left.

They might not land the plane, but I do think it has a chance to be on a first ballot Hall of Famer shortlist. One of the great shows ever. I think it's two things. One, it's really fucking funny. It's very funny. The rewatches. It's one of the most surprising rewatchable shows for the same reason that The Sopranos is really rewatchable.

Because some of it's just funny and maybe you didn't even notice it the first time, how funny it was and how funny it became. But I think that acting, and I'm glad you talked about the different performances now that grew in the characters. I think you can make a case that this is the best acted

TV show ever. And I'm going to say it from this standpoint. There's no weak links anywhere on the show. Everybody is at the top of their game. Whereas if you nitpick the other great shows, The Sopranos, even The Wire, there's some actors on some of the- Wait, what do you mean even The Wire? Even The Wire, there's not that much great acting on the wire. You can just... Well, but there's some good actors, but there's also some ones... You know, there's some really signature great acted performances, but there's some other people there.

Yes, but the main character on the show is giving one of the worst performances you're ever going to see. Sorry, Dominic West. Go on. Go on. I think this one Around the horn

The actors Every single person I don't even know who the weak link is There isn't one And even then it'll be like The fucking mom comes in And she owns every scene she's in For two episodes

And then leaves Yeah Right Adrian Brody comes in for one episode He's fucking incredible Yeah He leaves Yeah It's just I am a boss Same thing I don't know why I don't know why she left Yeah. Right. Adrian Brody comes in for one episode. He's fucking incredible. Yeah. He leaves.

Yeah. It's just. I am a boss. Same thing. I don't know why. I don't know why she left. But I mean, I understand in the scheme of things, they just didn't know what to do with that character. And it like, if she's around.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, well, she's not gone yet. Oh, oh, great. Sorry. I love that they're going to bring her back. Yeah. I know. We haven't seen the last of her. I love that sorry i love that they're gonna bring her back um yeah i don't we haven't seen the last of her i love that i love that actor and i think she's great but i think that you know

every single person and i and again i will just say this again like it it took them as far as i'm concerned it took them you know 10 episodes to figure it out but by the time you get to the early parts of that second season, they're cooking. And by the time you get to season three... I would say seven. I think they figured it out in the last third of season one. That's true.

When they got to the wedding, the two-part wedding thing, I think they had it figured out. You know what show is for best all-around acted show combo? I think Mad Men is close. Mad Men. But even Mad Men had a couple... Six Feet Under. Six Feet Under is another show where everybody on that show was

ready to go full nuts. When it was your turn, you knew what to do. And the guest stars on that show were always good. I don't know. I feel like Six Feet Under had, of the sort of regular,

even, you know, the people who were sort of recurring characters were really great on that show. I think Good Times. If you really watch Good Times closely. I say this half-kiddingly, half-seriously. Good Times is amazing. Good Times is still good.

My son and I still watch it. Every single actor on Good Times is fucking top of the line. Like, overqualified to be on a show like that. I think that, you know, what you're watching John Amos and Esther Rolle especially do on that show is that. I think that, you know, what you're watching John Amos and Esther Rolle especially do on that show is like really underrated.

And they are acting, they are doing Shakespeare some of those episodes, right? Some episodes of that show, you know, are... By the way, the Ernie Barnes paintings, Ernie Barnes, all that stuff has like completely skyrocketed

to like unbelievable heights. Although in JJ, they pretended they were JJ's paintings in good times, but it was actually Ernie Barnes. And Ernie Barnes is now belatedly one of the hard artists. Oh, yeah. That's my good times tidbit for you. How do you want Succession to end before we go?

Oh, my God. I'm really bad about the business part of this show. I am frequently asking other people to explain before we go. Oh my God. You know, I'm really bad about the business part of this show. I am frequently asking other people to explain it to me. Um, I don't really, I kind of, I'm not really like this. I'm not, I don't care who winds up owning this company. Cause I feel like that's not quite the point. Obviously those kids aren't qualified to run that company. Obviously the only person who can do it is Jerry. Like what the aren't qualified to run that company. Obviously, the only person who can do it is Jerry. Like, what the fuck? It's not that hard. And I don't really get the, I mean, in some way, and I don't, this is me sort of thinking about

not what the writer's room is doing, but like my response to my treating these characters like they're real people. But the idea that this person in Jerry, who could have been doing this the whole time, she could have saved all these people, all this trouble, is seen as like not competent, not right for the job, a threat. Like the threat is that she's doing your job

better than you are, Logan. Right. Firing Sid. Jeannie Berlin, by the way, has nothing to do on this show. I wish they would give her an episode because she's also one of my favorite actors

and, you know, was so good on that, on that other courtroom show as the lawyer that I can't, the night, the night of.

Anyway. Oh, you're right. I forgot she was in that. Yeah, she is good. I just am excited, Carolina, that we might get a little more of her. I love that actress. Oh, you're right. I forgot she was in that. Yeah, she is good. I just am excited, Carolina,

that we might get a little more of her. I love that actress. Oh, yeah. I remember her doing scenes with Wayne Jenkins on whatever that show was called that we love. Her and Wayne were lighting it up. Oh, yeah.

Wait, what was that show that was the David Simon show I love that show we own the city we own the city they gave us Wayne Jenkins now we're a staple of the rewatchables alright we'll wrap up

will you come on and talk Succession before the end of the year again because that was fun I just like having live bodies talk Succession with this show it has become one of the year again? Because that was fun. I just like having live bodies talk succession with. I just, this show, you know, it's, it's the, it's,

it has become one of the great shows. It's true. All right. Good to see you. You have a, you have a piece coming this week or now? Maybe? Possibly?

I want to write about air. That's what I'm, that's what I'm trying to write about. I'm sitting at my desk typing air words. If my fingers still worked, If my fingers still worked, if my fingers still worked, I would write a Kevin Durant piece this week. Oh, Bill, your fingers work?

Nah, they really don't. You text me all the time. They work for texting. Emojis. We all get your texts. Your fingers definitely work. Wesley Morris, good to see you as always. Great to see you.

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kevin O'Connor. Thanks to Wesley Morris. Thanks to Steve Cerruti and Kyle Creighton for producing. And we will see you on this feed on Thursday. Take care. On the wayside On the first side of the road I don't have to ever forget