The Bill Simmons Podcast - The LeBron-Davis Tandem, Denver’s Big Rally, Desus & Mero, and Jeff Daniels

Episode Date: September 23, 2020

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons shares his thoughts on the Nuggets' comeback win in Game 3 of the Western Conference finals vs. the Lakers, as well as the player combination of LeBron James and Anthony Davis and where it ranks among the historic NBA duos (3:04). Then he is joined by Showtime’s Desus Nice and The Kid Mero to discuss NYC during the pandemic; New York sports; the NBA playoffs; MLB, adjusting to doing ‘Desus & Mero’ from home; interviewing late-night icon David Letterman; their new book, ‘God-Level Knowledge Darts: Life Lessons From the Bronx’; and more (24:45). Finally Bill talks with actor Jeff Daniels about some of his past work including ‘Terms of Endearment,’ ‘Speed,’ ‘Dumb and Dumber,’ and ‘The Newsroom’; Jim Carrey’s comedy run in the mid-'90s; performing on and off Broadway; his new two-part Showtime miniseries ‘The Comey Rule’; and more (1:15:15). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of the Bill Simmons podcast on the ringer podcast network is brought to you by Spotify, which has the best listening experience around. You can change speeds. You can check out their awesome charts. You can discover all your new podcasts coming up. I'm going to talk about Lakers nuggets at the top. And then our old, old, old friends, Desus and Mero, who just continue to get more and more famous. I have a nice seat on their bandwagon. I'm kind of like fifth row.

But we talked about a whole bunch of things. And then Jeff Daniels, who I had never had on before and who was a delight. This is a great podcast. I'm jealous. I'm jealous of you that you get to listen to this whole podcast right now. You should just feel lucky.

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signal the beginning of Miller time. Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. Here's Pearl Jam. All right. I said the top of this podcast because I wanted to react to the Lakers-Nuggets game. The Nuggets won by eight. Taping this now, it's a little after 9 o'clock Pacific time on Tuesday night. Had a feeling the Nuggets would show up tonight.

This is a backs-to-the-wall team. They came back from a 3-1 in both rounds before this one, as you know. 2-0 is nothing to them. They should have won game two, if not for just abominable brain fart by Myles Plumlee. And just in general, that was just a travesty. And they're in a little bit of a situation

like the Celtics were last round, where they're down 2-1, but it feels like they should be up 2-1, and they know that they probably have to win five games in this series now. Could they do it? Well, all right, what'd they do tonight? One thing, they got Jamal Murray going. He had 28-12, but they were running him off the ball a little bit more. He was more aggressive. I think he started to figure out the size of this Lakers team and where he can kind of

pick his spots and attack and things like that. Jokic was not great tonight, 22-10-5. But he was sloppy. Five turnovers and just seemed a little bit out of sorts. Made a couple crazy shots. One of them actually went in. But in general, I wouldn't say this was a spectacular Jokic game. Jeremy Grant was unbelievable, though. He had 26, 12 free throws, which I love.

I love that he gets to the line. He was really active. And when you think, they basically just swiped him away from Oklahoma City for nothing, a protected first round pick. OKC is trying to cut cost. And that happens and that's ridiculous. But whatever.

Thanks, OKC. LA tried to play a zone to get back into it. They made a huge comeback near the end. And Ronda, who is abominable in the first half, actually had a little energy and started making plays in the second half. And LeBron, who has faded in some of these fourth quarters, but in this game was really strong.

And they made it a game, but then Jamal took care of business. The only things I noticed, I think this Nuggets team definitely figures out the opponent as each series goes along. And in this series, they figured out finally how to get Jamal going a little bit. They figured out that they really need Jeremy Grant. And they figured out how to exploit the Howard minutes

because when Howard was in there, they were just running. You know, and he's not somebody that really wants to run that much anymore. My least favorite player of the 21st century, Dwight Howard. Always rooting against him. Sports hate. But for the most part, Murray was, I guess, the big difference. But if I'm a Laker fan, here's what would concern me. Even just looking at this box score and the last box score, which are just completely different from one another.

Danny Green was good in game two. In game two, he had... Well, he wasn't good in game two, but he played 28 minutes, he had 11 points, he had three threes. In this game, he's kind of MIA. 20 minutes, one for four. Rondo was MIA the last game. This game, he played 30 minutes,

which is just a lot of Rondo. They can't really figure out the supporting cast thing and who they're going to get night to night, which puts an incredible amount of pressure on Davis and LeBron. And here's the thing. We're going every other night now. They're playing Thursday.

They're playing Saturday. They're playing Monday. They're playing Saturday. Playing Monday. They're playing Wednesday. This is now where we're going. Davis played 43 minutes tonight. LeBron played 37. And this is going to favor the Nuggets as we keep going. They're younger.

They're going to be able to handle it. They're a much better three-point shooting team. Look at the Lakers tonight. Six for 26 from three. That's a disaster. All right, where were they in the last game? 13 for 36. They're not a great three-point shooting team in general.

And what they need to do is they need to ride Davis and LeBron and get their 60 points from those guys, but also put the other team in foul trouble. Tonight, the Lakers had 26 fouls. Nuggets had 21. I feel like this is going to be a long series. I never felt like this series was over after game two.

And the longer this goes, the more you have at least one of these old guys on the Lakers, you have some injury potential. And I was seeing it. There was one moment with four minutes left in this game when Davis couldn't even run up the court. They're putting real miles on these guys. And LeBron, same thing. Rondo's a guy who gets hurt over and over again.

Dwight only played 14 minutes tonight. It doesn't really matter, but he's old. Danny Green's older it's just a red flag and that was why when they got it to within two tonight it was like man if they could sweep this and you know

just basically take a week off until the Celtics Heat Series is over that would be phenomenal for them so I would be concerned if I was a Lakers fan because you're riding two guys. None of the other guys have really stepped up. Even the game Jeremy Grant had tonight,

nobody in the Lakers is even capable of that game. Let's be honest. Rondo is weirdly important. And especially when they were playing that zone and that kind of unleashed him. You're able to hide some of the stuff that is wrong with him defensively and do the whole thing.

But I think this is going to be a long series. I think both series are going to be at least six games and one of them will go seven, possibly both. I wanted to talk about the dynamic duo thing with LeBron and Davis. If you read my basketball book, you know that I had a thing called the 42 Club,

which actually started with an ESPN column that I wrote about Dirk Nowitzki. And the theory is, if you add up somebody's points, rebounds, and assists for a season or for a playoffs or both, and the number adds up to 42 points, rebounds, and assists. You know something special is happening. So you look at, you know, once you get to the playoffs,

it becomes so much harder to join the 42 club. And I'm just going for guys since 1980 here. LeBron has done it one, two, three, four, five, and this will be his sixth time this year. Six times he's in the 42 club. That's a record. Larry Bird, one, two, three, four times. Jordan, four times. Shaq, three. Moses, two. Hakeem, one. Kareem, one. Magic, one. Barkley, one. Kobe, one. Iverson, one won, Duncan once, and then Kawhi did it last year in 19, he did 43 and a half. That's the entire list of guys who 42 club also played in a finals of the last 40 years.

LeBron five times, Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Moses, Hakeem, Kareem, Magic, Barkley, Kobe, Iverson, Duncan, Kawhi. It's a pretty great list. Well, when you start talking about two guys on the same team in the 42 club, it's only happened once. And it happened in 2001.

Here's what I wrote in my basketball book. Quote, We haven't seen anything approaching Shaqobi in the 2001 playoffs. It's the only time in NBA history that two top 20 pyramid guys joined forces as an inside-outside combo. Both were either approaching their primes or enjoying their primes. Check out

Shakobi's regular season and playoff numbers. And I put the numbers in. For the playoffs, Shaq was 30.4 points, 15.4 rebounds, and 3.2 assists. And Kobe was 29.4 points, 7.4 rebounds and 3.2 assists. And Kobe was 29.4 points, 7.3 rebounds, 6.1 assists. Shaq was a 49 as a 42 club guy. 49 is ridiculous. Kobe was a 42.8.

And as I wrote, it's the one and only time it's ever happened. But I tried to figure out if you combine the top two on a team with at least one of those guys being a 42 club or what was the highest average together. Will Chamberlain and Hal Greer in 1967 combined for a jaw-dropping 49.3. And then when you're just talking about combination, Shaq and Kobe combined were 45.9. Kareem and Magic in 1980 combined were 42.3, Shaq and Kobe in 02, Hakeem

and Clyde in 95, MJ and Pippen in 93, Kareem and Oscar in 71, Bird and McHale in 86, who were 39.9. So those are some of the great pairs in the history of basketball. Pretty much all of them, actually. Well, LeBron and Davis heading into this game, LeBron was 25.6, 10 and 8.7. So he's 44.3. Davis was 28.7, 10.7 rebounds, 3.9 assists. He was 43.3.

Tonight, LeBron was 30, 10 and 11. Davis was 27, 2 and 1. So I didn't do all the math. I was promised there'd be no math on this podcast. But LeBron is at about 44.5 and Davis is at about 43.1. If you combine them together, that's 43.9 as a combo, which is the second best by my calculations

since Chamberlain and Greer. So you have Shaq and Kobe in 2001 who are 45.9, and then LeBron and Davis who are just a hair under 44. My point is this. I think because it's been in our face the whole time since the trade, Davis goes there, it's the Lakers, it's been in our face the whole time since the trade, Davis goes there, it's the Lakers, it's LeBron. We talk about these teams constantly.

I actually think it's been weirdly lost what an incredible historic combo these two guys are together. We've really seen this a handful of times in the history of basketball. And if you're talking about the great dynamic duos ever, I still feel like Shaq and Kobe in 2001 for the last 35 years of basketball

is number one for me. Kareem and Magic, probably in 80, Magic's pretty young. In 85, Kareem's older, even though he did win finals MVP. That's way up there MJ and Pippen obviously Pippen was never

like a monster statistically but if you add them together it was pretty good and then I think Bird and McHale was a great one and then you have Curry and KD so in 2017 Curry was a 41 KD was the 39 7 so neither of them made the 42 club.

I think part of the problem was they were killing teams in a lot of those playoff games that year. So they were a 40.4 combined, but neither of them made it. The 42 club is special. One of the things with Dirk in 2006, when I wrote that column and I created that club, it was like, man, this guy's on a 42 club pace here. And then if you remember in the finals, he tailed off a little and I think

he ended up being like a 41.9. He just missed it. One of the reasons I loved the 42 club was Carl Malone. It was the number that I came up with that left Carl Malone out the most times as in the regular season. Um, because he was, I always thought the, the most overrated superstar, he was definitely more stats than substance, but, um, but this LeBron Davis thing, when you think about where we were after that trade and you think LeBron is the age he is at age 35, heading into his 17th year, never gets injured, you'd think like, well, you know,

he's going to tail off a little bit here. It just, it has to happen. This is the rule of the land. And maybe this will become Davis's team. They've been able to navigate this two-man superstar thing about as well as I can ever remember seeing it. Even when you had Shaq and Kobe in 2001, and Jeff Pearlman just wrote a book about that Lakers era from 96 to 04. He was on Ryan Rosillo's podcast that's going up tomorrow, and I actually popped on for the second half of it. And a lot of that book is just about

how hard it was for Shaq and Kobe to coexist, which we knew, but this is painstaking detail about how rocky that was and just what a forced partnership that was in so many ways. Kareem and Magic, which Perlman actually covered in his last book, but is part of NBA lore. Kareem, famously distant, magic shows up, big smile, he's hugging everybody. And they ended up teaming up in a great way in 1980. I think the thing that's missing with that was Kareem sprains his ankle during the best game of the most famous game of his career. Sprains his ankle, the series is tied 2-2 against Philly in the 1980 finals. Kareem sprains his ankle, leaves, limps off, comes back, and basically wins the game for

them. Puts up like a 40 and 15, something like that. And he should have been the finals MVP, even though Magic had the iconic six game. Kareem was the best player in that series by far, and was the best player in the league. And I would have given him the finals MVP anyway. Look, if you've ever read anything for me, Kareem was my least favorite non-Celtic, my favorite basketball player to root against, my favorite player to sports hate. But the guy was fucking unbelievable.

I mean, you could really make a case he was the greatest player of all time. You really could. You could actually make a statistical case for it. I think he's either third or fourth, but you could make the case. He won six MVPs. He won all the titles. Best college player ever, all that stuff.

But Kareem and Magic as a combo, they never peaked at the same time, even though both of them are two of the six best players ever. And then MJ and Pippen, Pippen was just never on that superstar level. Really, there's only, you know, three or four times when you had top 25 guys that were even playing together where they were kind of close to, you know to being great. Like Kareem and Oscar

in 1971, that was like post-prime Oscar. He was still really good, but he wasn't like a superstar anymore. You had Hondo and Russell in 1968 where they were a 42.2 together in the 42 club.

That's an older version of Russell. He was all savvy and smarts and all that stuff at that point. It was vintage Hondo. Havlicek was like at his absolute prime at that. This Davis LeBron thing is interesting because you could argue Davis is at, in his actual prime right now. You know, he's been in the league since 2012. He's, I don't think will ever be better offensively. He will never have more of a package. I mean, he might get more game experience,

but this is, I think, about as good as he's ever going to be. And then LeBron has just figured out how to extend his prime in ways that make no sense. So, you know, I was talking to somebody today who's been the best part of the bubble, and it's like, wait a second the who's been the best part of the bubble and it's like wait a second it's been LeBron why are we why are we arguing about this LeBron's been unbelievable he uh he's just been able to adjust to the way basketball has evolved over the last

seven years in a particularly devastating way and is really driven at this point because he can smell it now. Once the Clippers went out, he knows. This is, you know, now he has a chance for four. Four puts him on a different plane, you know, because now that's one more than Bird. That's three titles with three different franchises where he's the alpha dog of the team. That's never happened before.

Winning a title at his age where you're still this good, really no precedent other than Kareem and Russell. So he knows, he smells it. And the combo of them, if we're going gonna remember the bubble playoffs for the bubble and just how weird and cool it was and just the kind of basketball that we got to see which is basically like pick up basketball across the playoff basketballs which is fucking cool i

loved it um we're gonna remember for all the social justice stuff and all the all the great stuff that these guys did and all the awareness they raised and all the voting initiatives and just really, really phenomenal stuff. And, you know, potentially we're going to remember for LeBron and AD and this trade where they gave up an incredible amount to get this guy hoping it would pay off. And now they're six wins away if they can stay healthy. But I think the legacy of this team, we love talking about legacies as media people. The legacy of this team is going to be just what an awesome combo this was just for basketball and for people who like basketball, just these two incredibly gifted all around players, but really offensive players who figured out how to coexist in a really cool way, which is its own, you know, its own battle. A constant tug of war. It's covered for hundreds of pages in the Perlman book. It was a tug of war the entire time. Cream and magic, it came a lot easier.

Hondo and Russell, that was super easy because Russell didn't care about offense. All he wanted to do was take care of defense. MJ and Pippen fit together perfectly. Pippen wasn't a superstar. Bird and McHale. McHale was first team all-NBA in 1987 when the league was stacked.

That guy was great. They figured out how to coexist because Bird was the legend. He was three times in a row MVP. LeBron and Davis, I feel like have figured out how to make each other better in a lot of different ways. And they're on the same page. Doesn't seem like there's any ego stuff with them. And if they end up winning the title, I think we're going to remember them as one of the all-time great duos. And LeBron has a million things to remember him

as this guy was the greatest this, greatest that, one of the greatest here, one of the greatest that. But he never had this with Wade. You know, 2011, Wade was unbelievable. I still think he was the best player in the league that year. But LeBron was kind of half broken from all the decision stuff and then completely wilted in the finals.

And then in 2012, when he took charge of the league and became the guy that we've now seen for the last eight, nine years, Wade was banged up and he just wasn't the same guy anymore. So then LeBron with Kyrie, you would say 2016, 17 range. and he just wasn't the same guy anymore. So then LeBron with Kyrie, you would say 2016-17 range.

Kyrie, as talented as he is and how impactful as he can be, was never a reliable superstar like Davis is. So I still believe Wade is the... 2011 Wade, I still think, is the best player LeBron ever played with. But if Davis and LeBron win the title, then now you have an argument. But

the dynamic duo thing, it's been pretty cool. And I think I've certainly taken it for granted, partly because there's been so much basketball and this story has been in our face all the time. And also like, you know, I'm a Celtics fan. I hate the Lakers. But you gotta to hand it to these two dudes for the production they're putting up

and how much fun it's been to watch. We will see, you know, every other day against this young Nuggets team that just will not quit and is as tough as nails. We'll see if they can get through these next four games and we'll see who's waiting for them in the finals. But yet another awesome bubble playoff subplot. All right, we're going to take a break

then I'm bringing in Deezus Amiro. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too.

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Score in-store promos, PC Optimum points, and more free time. And still get groceries. Shop now at pcexpress.ca. All right, this is and Mara here. It's been a while. We're doing this on Zoom, which is weird. I usually like when we're in the same room together. You guys got a book coming out.

We're going to talk about that in a second. Tell me about New York because I haven't been back East for really 2020. And I've heard these conflicting reports about what New York is like. It's a ghost town. No, no. It's actually interesting. People are eating outdoors now.

You tell me, what's it like? New York is done. New York is a relic of what it used to be. It looks like, you know, at the end of Planet of the Apes, when they're looking at the Statue of Liberty on the beach. And all the civilization. No, that's not true. New York is fine.

That's not true. It's fine. It's New York. If you go to places like in Times Square and 34th Street that were near a lot of mass transportation,

those places have kind of closed down because there's no one there. There's nobody selling coffee to the office workers in the daytime because there's no more office workers.

But if you remove yourself from that, once you get back into the outer boroughs, if you just go a little north, Harlem's popping, the Upper West Side is popping, the restaurants are, they're not selling out the way they used to be

because they can't do full capacity. But New York is finding a way to get restarted. You have businesses opening at 25%. There's a lot of outdoor dining. There's like outdoor concerts and stuff now. New York is not dead. And all those New York Times articles about everyone's leaving the city

and buying houses in upstate and Westchester and Jersey, those are misleading because it's like statistically, a lot of those sales were stopped because of coronavirus. They were halted. Once they restarted, now it looks like there's an exodus of the city. People are not leaving the city. New York is still here

and it's not going anywhere. Anything to add, Mero? I mean, yeah. No, that's really it like it's funny because like the people that are like yo new york is dead moved here from like you know minneapolis like two years ago so it's just like do you do you really know that new york is dead can you really say that are you an actual new yorker there's a level of privilege to make a statement like that where you're just like okay i'm gonna go to my second house upstate. It's like a lot of New Yorkers do not have a second house. A lot of New Yorkers barely have a first house. So you're just telling us about your relationship with New York

and how it basically was parasitic. Like you just use New York for whatever it could do for you. You didn't add anything to the value of New York. Therefore, New York is done to you, but you never added anything to New York. So us New Yorkers don't need you in New York. I'm buying New York stock. I have a lot of friends that live in New York and they're talking about how the rent has gone way down in certain neighborhoods and stuff like that. It's like the city might be done.

This might be it. It's like, guess what's never going to be done? New York. New York is the cockroach of the United States. Right. It'll never die. A friend of mine was saying in World War II, like London had the shit bombed out of it.

Yeah. Guess what? London came back because it's fucking London. Yeah. New York City is New York City. It's not going anywhere. It's going to be fine. In our short lifetimes,

I can honestly say I've heard New York is dead at least five times. After 9-11. After the transit strike. You know, after all these events happened, no one's ever coming to New York. Remember after 9-11, after the transit strike, you know, after all these events happened, no one's ever coming to New York. Remember after 9-11, people were like,

no one would ever work below 14th street again. That's not, those days are done. Oh, right. Come on, come on. New York.

The seventies was another one when, when they had like the blackouts, the police strike, all that stuff. It's like New York is cratering on itself. At one point in New York, at one point in New York, they would have a, they had a sanitation strike in the seventies. It's like New York is cratering on itself. At one point in New York, they had a sanitation strike in the 70s that was so bad, people in the

outer boroughs had to push their garbage onto the Metro North tracks in order to get the city to pick up garbage. If that's how bad New York was at that point, and we've recovered from that, listen, anything is possible. In 1981, they made escape from New York

where New York was turned into a maximum security prison and people were like, yeah, alright, could see it. That's how bad New York was 40 years ago. Between that and Fort Apache, the views people had in New York, that's what they thought. They thought it was like

babies walking around with box cutters. That's not what it was. Kurt Russell making a full court three-pointer is more believable than New York dying. Well, unfortunately for you guys,

the sports scene has gone south. Now, that's one where I'm like, I'm not sure if the sports ever comes back. You know what? Oh, no, it's coming back. Yeah, it might not.

That one actually might be dead. It might be done. You know what? I, no, it's coming back. Yeah, it might be. That one actually might be dead. It might be done. You know what? I'm wondering, because you're seeing others, well, not to use other states as examples, but you're seeing other events

where they're having people in the audience, like other football games. No, no, I'm talking about the success of your teams. Oh. Because you have, you might have the two

worst NFL teams, or at least two of the worst four. You have, the Mets are just cursed for life. Your Yankees guys, everyone gets hurt. They're pulling quads. They're pulling hamstrings.

The Knicks are the Knicks. Like, where are the wins? The wins are going to come. The wins are going to come. You know what? It's, look, pre-recording, we were just talking about Cam Newton, you know what I mean?

And, you know, that little, you know, situation that happened down there, I know you hate to see it. It's a moral victory. Right. You know, but like Jay-Z, moral victories are for minor league coaches.

You know what I'm saying? We're in the majors over here. But Bill, we have to ask, is Corona the reason why your Red Sox are where they're at right now? There's a variety of reasons. I don't think Corona cracks the top five. I think my Yankees will be okay.

I think my Yankees will be all right. Well, it all started when we got rid of Mookie Betts, the best position player of my lifetime. That was tough. That hurt. And I'm not even a Red Sox fan, but that was just like, that had to hurt the watch, man. Like, he was such a, he's such an ill player. Listen, I'm going to say this right now, and there's no hyperbole.

He was your Derek Jeter. And I'm saying that. Having all the guys you had, Pedro, Manny, Papi, all those guys, he was your Derek Jeter. That guy was going to be the face of the franchise for the next 15 or 20 years. And whoever was in the front office was just like, oh no, let's going to be the face of the franchise for the next 15 or 20 years. And whoever was in the front office was just like, oh no, let's give him to

the Dodgers. Man. Well, they got worried he might not stay, but I said this to CeCe that it was the equivalent of giving up Jeter in like 1998. That far? Betts wasn't even 27. I think he had just turned 27 when they traded him, but it's like his best years were

ahead of him. And he's such an incredible guy off the field it's like hey if you're not building around this guy what are we doing what are you doing you know you're building around devvers you know what i'm saying like get out of here like i gotta say i've never watched less baseball and i haven't missed it that much mainly because i know what i'm missing which is just carnage what what did the yankees season been like for you guys? You know what? I'm going to be honest with you. It's been like what you just said. It's different. It's not even the passion

of watching is not the same because the games feel weird, you know, that there's no audience. Even the Red Sox-Yankees series that just happened was so anticlimactic. At one point, the game is tied at the 12th inning. Usually, even if it was a meeting, even with the standings and the game doesn't matter, Red yankees is still must watch especially on a friday this is like an extra inning game i turned the channel i was like who cares it's just not the

same it just doesn't have that same gravitas to it and that's not to take anything away from the players the players are out there trying but it's just we you know as fans we are that sixth man we are that missing element on the field. And if we can't be there, the game feels so weird. Like, it's even, like I said to Mero, I miss Knicks games. I don't miss watching the Knicks play, but I miss going to Madison Square Garden. I watch all the revelry around it, you know, watching them lose,

but just the whole passion and just everything that goes with it. And that's what hurts. Hey, listen, I was watching the Giants yesterday screaming at my TV. And the Giants are doing very Nicky things. You know what I mean? Like, giving you hope

late in the third, early fourth quarter. And then blowing it like at the perfect time. Like, yo, shout out to Daniel Jones. You are... Like, you're ISO mellow in football form.

Well, they find... Saquon's out now. Yeah. So, that wason's out now. Yeah. That was bad. You know what I mean? That was very Nixie to just lose your best guy to a knee injury early in the season. Early in the season. And I said it when they drafted Jones.

I was like, if you guys don't improve this O-line, you are drafting Barry Sanders, and you're going to watch him erode and waste his prime years. You know what I'm saying? You can go check it out on my Twitch channel. It's a safe clip. It's a bummer. What you were saying about the baseball crowds,

totally agree. I didn't realize how much I needed it just as a home viewer. And I felt this with the US Open too with tennis where they're playing

in these empty arenas and it's like in tennis, it's not like the crowd's making noises. They'll make noises between points and stuff. But you're using the crowd as this cue for how you should feel about the match and the momentum and stuff like that.

And without it, it's just empty. And I feel the same way with baseball where there's no emotion to the game. It's just cold and weird. It's like that fucking Minority Report with Tom Cruise. It's just like all the emotion has been stripped away. I don't like it. My father is a lifelong Yankee fan. It's just like all the emotion has been stripped away. I don't like it. My father is a lifelong Yankee fan. He's down in Florida, and he's trying to watch the games.

He said without the audience there, it really exposes the fact that you're watching a bunch of multimillionaires play baseball. And I was like, wow, that is a hot take. But that's honest. He's like, there's no emotion in it. You don't really feel the same for it. He said even if the Yankees were to

get a ring this year, it's going to be... Yankee fans will be jerks. 28 rings. But that ring is not going to feel like all the other rings. It's going to be a mental asterisk ring. I'm Dominican. I can't say that on the record. My dad will fly in and punch me in the face if I say I don't enjoy

baseball in any form or fashion. I kind of still enjoy and punch me in the face if I say I don't enjoy baseball in any form or fashion. You know what I'm saying? But, like, you know, like, I kind of still enjoy it. You know what I mean? But gambling is legal in Jersey, so maybe that has something to do with it. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah.

Gambling is legal in Jersey. You know what I'm saying? So if you got money in the game, you know, you don't give a shit if it's, you know, Texas versus Texas State Tech versus, you know, whoever. You're in there. You're locked in. So, but I do think that the NBA is doing a good job of, like,

having a fanless environment where, like, the other sports are kind of flopping because, like, the NBA is actually interesting because it's like they're talking a lot and you can hear shit. Like, you hear Kemba Kersick and be like, oops, I said oh shit. You know what I mean? Or, like, motherfucker, I wish Mello was still in the playoffs. I would hear like all the

give me that shit, motherfucker. I would enjoy all of that, you know what I mean? There's a lot more gamesmanship with the no fans. I even noticed last night with the Lakers and they've been doing this. The Lakers are definitely turning in a Cobra Kai during this bubble playoffs. I love it.

What's his face? The backup point guard Dozier was shooting free throws at the tail end. It was on the Lakers side. And their whole bench was heckling him. Like it was like 20 fans. I was like,

I've definitely never seen that in an NBA game before. The bench riding a guy like that during free throws. But there's like a gamesmanship that did not exist in the same way. It doesn't feel like

professional basketball anymore. Now it feels like you're watching high school basketball, the way these guys, they're playing with that young passion, that enthusiasm. And then you see it, they're getting a little scrappy when they're getting into it. And you're just like, yo, you guys are staying in the same hotel. There's no way you're going to fight.

But these guys are like, yo, I am going to leave it all out on the court. They're playing with a passion that you did not see or maybe we couldn't see because the fan noise was drowning it out. But you were seeing who really loves and lives and dies for basketball right now.

Or they're wary of the fans because they're being watched by everybody and maybe you're on guard like a tiny bit with how you behave. Now they just seem like it really feels like

a pickup basketball game. I actually love it. I think it's great. And that's why I love it. I love it. And I love LeBron's heel turn when he's why i love it i love it and i love lebron's heel turn when he's just like yo like he's just like yo i'm the fucking mvp bro you gave this guy the mvp two years in a row fuck that i'm lebron james i'm the best in the world

you know i'm saying you need to yeah i need to give me my flowers now you know what i mean stop playing i am i am magic meets a freight train right Stop it. You know what I'm saying? Although he might not be the best guy in his own team. Listen, he's taking it easy. He's a smart guy. That's what I hate about people like the LeBron naysayers. Bruh, this is what's happening right now. LeBron knows that he can, like, you know how, what was this guy's name?

You know, in football, when they call a guy, he's not going to win you the game, but he's going to, he's a game manager, quarterback, game manager, quarterback. He's a game manager that doesn't need to be a game manager. He can be, you know, 40, 15 and 12 LeBron whenever he wants. That's the shit that people don't understand. I feel like he's not gassed. Like he's, he's still got it. You know what I mean? Like this I feel like he's not gassed. He's still got it. You know what I mean? This guy, he's a freaking H. He's a machine.

He's just like, yo, I could chill because now this is like I could be the point guard and I could bring the ball up the floor and tell these guys what to do. Let's be honest. Frank Vogel is just a piece of furniture on the Lakers bench. You know what I'm saying? LeBron is coaching that team. You know what I mean? It is what it is. that team. You know what I mean? And it is what it is.

The guy's a complete player. He's not Jordan. You know what I mean? He's not just there to get buckets. He's there to fucking win the game. And that's what he does. He's like, yo, AD, you are cooking. I'm going to get you the ball. So if LeBron

wins this title, which indications are we're heading that way and they're pretty heavy favorites now they're like 3-1 favorites it's Heat Lakers final Heat Lakers did you just turn on Kemba Walker from the Bronx Kemba the Bronx is on Kemba Walker

I said it on Twitter I said it hurts my heart because Kemba is the pride of the Bronx. BX all day. Cardiac Kemba. You know what I mean? Step back.

Yeah, all day. But it's going to be Heat Lakers, man. Like I'm telling you. Like the NBA. Adam Silver would love for it to be Celtics-Lakers, but it's not going to happen. But we got Mustachio Gordon Hayward back. You did. And everybody thinks that he's a fucking winter soldier.

But tell me this. As a basketball fan this as a basketball fan and as a celtics fan do you really want gordon hayward taking touches away from jason tatum who is your guy he's he's the mookie bets of the celtics you're not looking at this correctly every minute he plays is a minute that semi ojule and brad wanamaker aren't playing if he's a c plus that's a huge fucking win for us. Because at least he knows how to move around on the court.

He knows how to move in space. He can pass a little. He can shoot a little. He's not like removing things from the game for us. He's not hurting us. That's the difference. So I actually think he's,

I thought he really helped in game three. I was encouraged. Well, you know, we shall see my prediction was he in five you got your one so when they lose the next two you can be like damn Merrill was right

the Heat is a team that's in your wheelhouse a lot of the way they carry themselves a lot of ballers basically this is a team you would like I'm not surprised Jimmy Butler is a dog he doesn like. I'm not surprised. Yo, Jimmy Butler's a dog, man. He doesn't care. He's out there to win. You see it on his face.

He's got that Jordan, Westbrook, Kobe mentality. He's just like, I am going to win this fucking game. I don't care. I'd be devastated if the Celtics didn't make it because I do think they're really good. But if Miami made it, the funniest subplot would be Jimmy Butler being like, finally, it's me and LeBron,

the two best players in the league. In the league. Yeah. Finally, my rival and I get to be in a final. He's the only one who thinks that,

but that's one of the reasons he's great. He's great. He does think he's one of the best players in the league. That's how you gotta live your life.

You gotta live your life like that. You can't come into the league. I remember I was talking to a basketball player and they were just like, yo, when you come into the league. That's how you got to live your life. You got to live your life like that. You can't come into the league. I remember I was talking to a basketball player and they were just like, yo, when you come into the league, you have two decisions to make. You could either be like,

yo, LeBron is the best player in the league and I have to, you know, follow, you know, I'm always going to be beneath LeBron. Or you come into the league like, I'm better than LeBron. LeBron is not better than me. And I think you have to, that's secondary. You cannot come in there like, yo.

You got to have that Ricky Davis mentality. You got to be like, yo, I'm better than LeBron and I'm going to try to show it. Le cannot come in and have that Ricky Davis mentality you gotta be like yo I'm better than LeBron and I'm gonna try to show it LeBron might dunk it on you and embarrass you and put you on a poster but as long as you got

that mentality you're never gonna be LeBron's bitch and that's the problem with some people in the NBA well we have a rational confidence we have a rational confidence

stars like or even like role players like Ricky Davis you mentioned Deion Waiters was a great example of these guys who come off the bench.

Yeah, Lou Williams is like this. I think Lou... But it's usually not somebody who's the best player in a team. Jimmy might be the only irrational, confident superstar. Yeah. But you know what?

And people said that when he went to Miami. But I already knew how his brain worked. When he did that, he was just like, I'm good. Like, he's what every old basketball fan complains about. He's like, oh, back in the day, back in my day, you know, you wanted to be the best of the best. So you went out and built your own team.

You didn't join up with your friends and create a super team. Jimmy Butler is like the old head mentality guy. He's like, I'm going to go to Miami, be the guy in Miami, even though everybody thinks that we're going to suck, and I'm going to turn Tyler Hero into a backwards smoking, like, you know, basketball hero. You know what I mean? So that's what he did.

He went there, dolo, and made it happen. You know? Meanwhile, you got Westbrook and Harden teaming up. Paul George is the worst. Paul George and Kawhi, you know? Like, it got Westbrook and Harden teaming up. Look how that happened. Paul George is the worst. Paul George and Kawhi, you know? Like, it didn't work out for them. But Jimmy Butler is like, you know, proving all the old heads right.

Paul George is just jumping crews every year or two years. He's like, oh, is there another superstar I can latch on to? Anyone else out there? He was KD before KD. Wow. Ooh.

Ooh. Shots fired. Shot fired at KD. And KD will answer you back Wow. Ooh. Ooh. Shots fired. Shots fired at KD. And KD will answer you back from his regular Twitter account. You're getting a text now. He's coming at you.

He's calling Tommy right now. Have you guys said stuff on the Showtime show that activated people and had people going at you on social? Has that happened this year? You know what?

It's not even, it's not even like on social. Like now happened this year? You know what? It's not even on social. Because I think what the thing in the past was like anytime we had beef or anything in the past, someone waited to be on our show to... So people waited to be on our show

to approach us. Now people can just text message us or whatever. But most people realize at this point we're comedians. We're joking around. So people don't take it seriously. There's been players we have cooked. And then when they see us, they'll see me at a Nick game or they'll see me and Mero at Yankee Stadium.

And they'll be like, ah, my guys. You cooked me one time. You cooked me one time. And we don't even remember. And they'll be like, yeah, it was this episode. You said I got a head like a mushroom. And these guys are cracking up or have tears in their eyes. I think it was Gary Sheffield one time. He was talking about how we always make it.

He called the show The Chuckle Show. His wife calls it The Chuckle Show because he watches it at night and he chuckles. Now, the idea of scary Gary Sheffield in bed, probably smoking a cigar, watching us and chuckling. Listen, it don't get better than that. It don't get better. And then Mero mentioned it a couple of times and we ran into him again.

He's like, yep, it's my chuckle guys. It's my chuckle guys. Hey, hey, hey. He brought his wife over. He's like, hey, these are the chuckle show. These are the chuckle show guys. Chuckle show. That would have been a good alternate title.

The chuckle show. By the way, Gary Sheffield was out at Yankee Stadium. We did see some of the celebrity softball game. He's out there hitting bombs in a Brooks Brothers button-up and slacks and hard-bottomed shoes. He's just like, let me take a couple swings. Bang! Moonshot! Bang! Moonshot! I'm like,

why aren't you DH-ing somewhere still? Best... I think the best swing of the last 25, 30 years. So aggressive and violent. So aggressive and I love it like a control violence though he was when he went to the Yankees every time he was up I thought

he was gonna have a double a triple or a home run that it not a single a single win I just assumed he was gonna hit a bomb somewhere I was terrified every time he swung on the ball it's like the ball had done something wrong to him just the anger and the look on his face like he was trying to kill that ball it's like when I see St something wrong to him. Just the anger and the look on his face. He was trying to kill that ball. It's like when I see Stanton now, when he's up,

I'm so afraid that he's going to pull a hamstring. It's not the same. I knew you were going to say that. I'm afraid his quad's going to tighten up. I'm worried about him physically, you know? Yeah. I never know what that means. Until you see a game where he goes four for four

and he hits the ball and the ball's coming off the bat 180,000 miles an hour. This is actually a cruise missile. Don't you ever slander my guy Mike Stanton, all right? Yeah, we're still calling him Mike, all right? Everybody's starting out and calling him Mike. I have Judge on my fantasy team. He hurt his calf.

I had to read all the rehab updates. And then he came back and he immediately hurt the calf again. They were like, oh, that was too soon. It's like, what is this? Are his muscles too big for his body? Do we need more acid in his legs? What do we need to do? This is what happens with the Yankees, but then the judge will go down and then you get somebody

mad random like Luke Voigt. Starts wrecking it. You know what I mean? What do you guys feel about the baseball playoffs with all the extra teams? You like this? I don't really like that. You know what I'm saying?

I do. I just like more. Give me more. Like I said, gambling is legal in Jersey. You know what I mean? We're stuck in the house. Give me more. I want to bet on the Blue Jays.

Who cares? I don't know. How do you feel about the extra innings change with them putting the runners on base? That's weird. That's really weird. I don't know if like, I'm in that demo though,

like I'm out of the 18-49 because I turned 50 last September. So I'm in that demo now that the advertisers hate because it's like, well, that guy won't change products. He's just used to what he likes. Right.

Anything would change. I find myself now, I think just because I'm old, like, oh, man, I don't know about that. That seems weird. There's some changes that are like, you're like, OK, maybe we'll give. Well, the extra playoff football teams I like because I get another game to gamble on on Saturday. Oh, that's each. I get two more games instead of four. That first week to get six.

I like that. I need to move because I'm missing out on a new point of sports with the gambling. I need to get on. You guys seem to be having a lot of fun with this. Keep spending money on the sneakers. I think you're fine. Let us worry about the gambling stuff. What's the feeling of fall?

It's finally catching the sunrise. And not because you woke up early. No, you woke up nice and late. And you know what? The sun waited. Then you went and got what you love from Starbucks. The new pecan crunch oat latte and new baked apple croissant. And enjoyed that warm apple filling and those nutty flavors with rich brown buttery notes.

While the sun rose rose just for you that's the feeling of fall and it's only at starbucks at pens oil we have one job pioneering a motor oil so advanced you don't have to think about your motor oil instead you can think about how your engine sounds how your stomach feels as the rpms build how your wheels hug the curves and how with the pens oil platinum up to 15 year 800 000 kilometer protection guarantee your adventures will be many pens oil long may we drive available at your local canadian tire enrollment required keep your receipts other conditions apply see pens oil.ca slash warranty for full details how did the last three plus months change your show um just we learned to be like

computer wizards you know what i mean and set up mics and do all types of stuff you know other than that it's just like computer wizards computer wizards are understated we learned to be full sag crew members we're light. We're running audio cables. Before I enter the room, I pull down my pants to show my butt crack so people know I'm union. We're out here with gaff tape.

I know how a softbox works. We're setting up Teradex. We're setting up HDMI. Preamps. Preamps and all types of stuff. C-stands. But honestly, we have such a newfound respect

for everyone that does production on our show it's like now you understand what people do so now it's just like now that you have to do it you put more effort into it and you know talking to the sound guys and we're making jokes about like it's like the mix pre like shutting off and all that stuff but the beauty of the show is the show is the show is the show is the show we could have done the show anywhere and the show has continued the same nature it had before we did the quarantine. And shout out to Zoom.

It still works. It still feels like me and Mero are in the same room. And you haven't really lost any energy. It's one of the few shows on TV that's probably gotten better in the quarantine because you realize the surroundings and what we're working with. And we're trying to make the best show we can possible. And we've heard nothing but good things from people. It's like this. Like, the show is literally a version of this.

It's like the whole premise of the show is just like you're hanging out with us. You know what I mean? Right. So, like, the viewer is you right now. It's like, you know, we're on your show. But, you know, you get the idea. Like, the third person in the room

has always been, you know, our audience. And we're not used to having an audience until showtime. So we did 300 episodes of a show with no audience. So it's just like, we don't depend on that. Like, we're not playing to the audience. We're playing to each other. So, you know, being out of studio or whatever. It removed your biggest advantage, which,

and don't think I don't know what you, yeah, putting the guest in the middle. So, you guys are in the two power seats on the left and that guest has to do this and turn back and forth and you have them discombobulated

and then you can do whatever you want. Now, now it's equal footing. It's just three people in a Zoom. Now, now. Three people in a Zoom.

You know what I mean? And I hope your Wi-Fi keeps up. You know what I mean? I've noticed your Wi-Fi keeps up. You know what I mean? I've noticed that, you know, we've been, this is like midway through month seven, done a lot of pods, obviously. People are getting better at Zoom.

Oh, yeah. That first month or so, It's terrible. Bad angles. The lighting was bad and people kind of didn't know when to, they just didn't have the rhythm of it. And now,

I've noticed that people are really good now. It's actually pretty good to do these on Zoom, I got to say. It wasn't our fault. The fault was no one knew what the hell Zoom was before coronavirus. Nobody was using Zoom. If we were all sending emails,

most were using like Google Hangouts and then Corona starts, we got the lockdown. All of a sudden people send an email around like, yo, use this product called Zoom. Even Zoom was like, yo, relax relax we're not ready for you guys now zoom zoom is a robust product now they finally added two-way authentication now which we needed back in april they're starting to roll out new features on the low that we don't know about like just a month ago we found out about the doorbell feature where if you're muted you get the space bar to talk and then when you take off your finger on the space bar it mutes you again so you can use it like a walkie talkie if you go into like the advanced setting features

if you go under green screen you can go to the visual features and you can add like cgi sunglasses that follow you on the whole as instagram filters that top hat like listen there are there are things on zoom you do not know about it's a brand new world i'm me and merrill working on zoom for dummies it's going to be available on Amazon.com soon. As soon as we get someone else to ghostwrite it. It's going to be great. It's wild, bro. And the wildest thing about this whole thing is what these are saying.

It's like, you know, people were using Google Hangouts and all that stuff. Yo, Skype blew a 3-1 lead in the finals with this one. Oh, yeah. Maybe a 3-0 lead. Because this was like Skype. This was your moment. This was your time to shine, to come back a 3-0 lead. Because this was like Skype. This was your moment. This was your time to shine, to come back strong. It really was.

And they just blew it. I don't know what they were doing over there. I was embarrassed. You know, we obviously had the audible on the fly when everything started going down, like March 10th, March 11th range. It's like, well, how are we going to do podcasts? And we had never even considered the Zoom thing and the recording at home with good equipment thing. We had always

tried to do pods where people are in the same room. Like when you guys were in LA, that's when we, or when I was in New York, that's when we do something. And then after like two weeks, it's like, what the fuck were we doing? How did we not realize that, you know, we had all these options. We could put people in different places. You could put three people, four people in different places. So it was frustrating. I mean, just that it was, this stuff was sitting here

and nobody really thought of it. But it's also hard to come and sit on your big, comfy couch, though, in real life, though. You know what I'm saying? But shout out to our sound guys. Shout out to Victor and Hasan

because when we were doing the podcast, we didn't have the showtime budget to figure out things. So we started, I think the first thing we tried to use was Twitch. because when we were doing the podcast, we didn't have the showtime budget to figure out things. So we started, I think the first thing we tried to use was Twitch, and then we were trying to use Zoom and Twitch and then recording a separate audio file and then sending an audio file over.

You got to synchronize that using atomic clock and all this stuff that you weren't even thinking about last year because you were like, there's absolutely no reason we wouldn't be able to do the podcast in the same room. Somehow we figured it out, Shata the hassan the workflow is pretty massive but people are saying the podcast sounds the same as it did before corona but it's a lot more work but listen you know it's it's worth it it's worth it right well you know i'm saying the best thing that hack yeah look at that you know john sterling um, the best thing that happened to you guys,

just not as boring. Yo, listen, go back. Not to interrupt you, but the other day, like this, it's getting,

it's getting out of hand. If you're not gambling on baseball and you're watching a full baseball game, you might be a sociopath. Cause I, Paul O'Neill talked about his wallpaper for four innings the other day. Well, the announcers, the announcers honestly don't know how to fill the time. They don't.

It's illuminating a problem that's been a problem forever is that why are baseball announcers not entertaining? Why do we care more about this? Why do they have these conversations that aren't normal conversations? Why can't we have a serious guy?

The Knicks have the perfect combo. They got Mike Breen, who's like, yo, ball down low to Barrett. Barrett to do it. And then you got Clyde with the, you know, swooping and hooping. And, you know, he gives you that energy. That's what baseball needs. They need a fun guy and a serious guy.

But they're trying that. You're going to need professional comedians for right now with baseball, because baseball right now is devoid of any context. There's not an audience you can riff off. You can't do crowd action shots. It's getting to the point, even with Yankee games, I remember David Cohn had asked Paul O'Neill, can you guess what state most

of the medal in the bridges in New York City where the medal comes from? And they talked about this for half an inning. And it was just like, yo, it was like, you felt bad for them because they were trying. They were from. And they talked about this for half an inning. Oh, my God. And it was just like, yo, it was like you felt bad for them because they were trying. They were trying.

And then now, that one Yankee games and other baseball games, you will just have a long stretch of just silence. The announcers will not say anything and it's just the at-bat

and you never had that in the other games, but they have nothing to talk about. They have nothing to talk about. Well, they love relatives. They love when somebody's playing was the father or the nephew who played 30 years years ago they could do like a son of paul

quantrell he was had a really good good run here with the yankees and uh paul's living in wichita now and the worst is when they start talking about like an older player and i can recognize the older player because i watched them play and i'm saying, wow, any young person watching this has to be bored out of their mind. But now I know what it's like. Now I know it's like when I was younger and they'd be like, oh, do you remember Mickey Mantle?

And I'm like, I don't want to hear about this. It's like the other day they were talking about Richie Sexton. I was like, oh yeah, Richie Sexton, big sexy. And I was like, wait a minute. Nobody wants to hear this. Richie Sexton doesn't even want to hear about this.

Why are we talking about Richie Sexton in 2020? You're washed. We were just sitting there like, they we talking about Richie Sexton in 2020 you're washed you know Scott Brocious was the only other Yankee to do that you're like what who and yo Yankee fans are going to kill me for this but it's a fact the Mets announcers are

far and away better than the Yankees announcers Keith Hernandez, Ron Darling Keith's good Keith is entertainment you know what I'm saying than the Yankees announcers. Keith Hernandez, Ron Darling. Keith's good. Keith is entertainment. You know what I'm saying? I think it's the 86 Coke Mets thing.

Imagine he just goes off and starts talking about, you know, I was tooting rails with Kevin Mitchell that one time. Deep flat ball at center field at the track and it's caught. And yeah, so then he ate the cat and it was a wild time. The Mets have better announcers

because they're like EMS workers. They've seen more carnage. So they have better stories to talk about. And listen, they watch the Mets every day. You're going to see some things. You're going to have some things to talk about. Right? We talked about in the past,

another time you were on, we talked about those two types of New York fans. And one of them is that Mets, Islanders... Mets, Islanders, Jets. Mets, Islanders, Jets. It's just the fucking gauntlet. And then the Islanders actually had some success and then got kicked in the nuts

and lost at Game 7. To Tampa Bay? Yeah. Which, I keep repeating this. I'm like, is there ice in Tampa Bay? Why are they so good? And they've been successful for a while. Is there like a,

is there a Eastern Europe block? Like pipeline running straight to Tampa? Like what's going on? I don't understand. Since the last time I saw you guys, something really important happened to both of you. You had David Letterman on your show

yeah bro yes amazing i just want to know everything that happened on this so he reaches out or do you reach out how first of all how do you even make contact with him david first of all david letterman doesn't do shit i know i'm aware i'm aware including this podcast but he was like yo i he was like i i fucking love this show like and he was he was dead serious like we thought it was like a goof like he's fucking with us as david letterman like yeah he's always had like that kind of like edge where he's like you know he takes you down a peg or whatever so it was just like okay what are we gonna do and we like we we were thinking of all these things that we could do with David Letterman. And it was just like, no, we don't have to do shit.

We just have to sit down and talk to him. And that's exactly what we did. And he was so complimentary and he was so gracious and whatever that we were just like, you could see it on our faces in the interview. We were kind of shocked. And we did see this Sunday morning. And there's like a quote in there where I was just like David Letterman telling you you're the future of late night

is like Michael Jordan telling you yo you're pretty good at basketball you're really good right you know what I mean and he's a real fan like he didn't want to

leave the set after his you know usually you do the interview and you bounce he hung around backstage was just talking to us he asked for some of the merch and he was just talking to us

like crew stuff though not like for sale on the internet merch like crew shirts like I want that crew shirt and he was just so comfortable he was just talking to us. Like crew stuff, though. Not like for sale on the internet merch. Like crew shirts. Like, I want that crew shirt. And he was just so comfortable. He was just like, even when it was time to wrap up the interview, he wanted to keep going. So he just rocked with us.

And that moment was just like, no one could really tell you anything after that. You're just like, yo, if this guy says you're doing a good job on the show, then the network says you know. So you're like, yeah, suck my dick. I know what I'm doing. We're working well. It's working well. Don't listen. Don't don't rock the don't rock the boat. OK, we know what we're doing. We do what we do well. I think the Jordan

thing is a good analogy. Yeah. Jordan reaches out to Jason Tatum is like, hey, man, just want to tell you, I'm a huge fan. I think you're going to be a piece of that. Yeah. This is the greatest day of my life. Yeah. I see it for Tatum. When the Celtics front office implodes and they trade him to the Knicks for a second round draft pick.

No, no, stop it. You're talking about one of my children right now. Can't trade him ever. I can't lose him and Mookie Betts at the same century. That's rough. Who would you rather lose though on the Celtics?

Tatum, Brown, or Smart? If you had to lose one. I need all three. I don't want to lose any of those guys. I like that they fight, too. I think that gets so overblown by people who have never played sports. It's like, oh, my God. Jalen and Marcus got mad at each other in the locker room.

It's like, yeah, because it's a fucking basketball team. You get mad at people. That's what happens. That's actually a good thing. Better than like the fucking Clippers where it's like all passive aggressive silent stuff like some 1950s family that doesn't actually talk about anything.

Kawhi's just silent. It's like, what's wrong with dad? I don't know. I don't know. He just slept in the locker room. Yeah. But I'd rather have the team that's yelling at each other and then goes figure it out in the coach's hotel room

at one in the morning. That, to me, is healthy. That's passion. I mean, if it turns into like Tony Braxton, Jason Kidd, Jamal Mashburn, whatever the fuck happened with that whole thing. The room of love triangle. Like, that's where it gets dark. That's different.

We're talking about picking up and switching on defense. We're talking about who's smashing who over here. Yeah, if you're smashing the same whoever, now I'm nervous. There's a lack of respect on that front. I love the Tatum thing. He's still 22. The thing he's doing in these playoffs,

he's rebounding. He has 10.5 rebounds a game. He's rebounding like he's still 22. The thing he's doing in these playoffs, he's rebounding. He has like 10 and a half rebounds a game. He's rebounding like he's Carl Malone or somebody. And that allows him to play small. That's why I think this Miami series is going to go deep. Well, I can't believe you guys had Letterman. That's unbelievable. I can't believe you were able to function during the interview

and do your thing. I would have been just in complete awe the whole time. That's the other thing. Everyone is. Everybody was like, yo, why are you guys so nervous? Are you in your interviews? And we were just like, no, like interviewing Letterman was wild. Cool.

It was just like, oh, shit, you're David Letterman. All right, that's cool. Come on our show. Have a drink. Let's smoke some weed. Super chill. Because and we don't there's never been a guest where we were just like, yo, oh my god, we're interviewing this person. It's always the same. We're just in the back, chilling,

maybe smoking some weed or something. Well, back when we had the studio, and sometimes there'd be times where the guests would come into the studio, and they were like, do you want to meet the guests before you go on stage? We're like, nah, we're good. We'll meet them on stage, whatever. And sometimes the guests are like, they're so amped, they want to meet us, so they come into our green

room to talk to us. But other than that, we're like, hey, so amped, they want to meet us. So they come into our green room to talk to us. But other than that, we're like, hey, baby, we'll talk to you on stage. So that's I think that helps keep the interviews cool because we're never fanboying it up. We're never like, oh, like we've let them in. It's like, oh, my God, this is cool. We watch you. But it's never like we're scared to talk to David Letterman. It's like not Letterman.

Like, listen, we're doing what you're doing, baby. Let's just go. Let's shoot. Let's shoot the shit, baby. I only had two where I handled it. Well, listen, we're doing what you're doing, baby. Let's just go. Let's shoot the shit, baby. I only had two where I handled it well. I was proud of myself. But interviewing Larry Bird,

who is my favorite athlete of all time. I mean, I came through. I wasn't nervous when I did it. But the day before, I'm like, Jesus Christ, I'm going to fucking talk

to this guy who was my hero when I was a kid. It's just weird. That's our Derek Jeter, I guess. You know what I mean? Truthfully, the night before, I might have a little, like, yo, it's about to be DJ, man.

It's Jeets. It's Jeets. It's the captain. You know what I'm saying? But then once you get in there, you're like, okay. You kind of settle in. That's going to be me if we ever get the chance to interview Ron Baker. I'll be like, whoa. Wow. Wow. That's major. Major what's the nick always a nick yeah so i had i had bird and the other one was charlize which i didn't know until she walked in and she's just like the the you just don't know how to act

she comes in she's tall she's just unbelievable and you're just like oh my god i have to talk to you yeah but i can't interact and we did that it was just like yo what my god, I have to talk to you? But I can't interact. And we did that and it was just like, yo, what's up? You know what I mean? We're doing an interview with her and you can see at one moment, like, she is overwhelmed. She has no idea what is going on in the interview. Her eyes are just going back and forth

between us because we're just going so fast. And we've had celebrities like, you guys need to slow down. I cannot follow what you're saying. And we're just like you this is our normal talking speed but she's good because she was just like she had been with us on jimmy fallon a couple of weeks before that so when she came on our show she had already known how we operated and everything she was like i watched some of your stuff and she's sarcastic which is a bonus yeah those are the best kind of guests exactly and she doesn't take herself too seriously either.

You know what I mean? Right away at that moment, Tommy said, Tommy was like, yo, she's your people. I could definitely see you guys hanging out off camera and it's true.

She got that vibe. She got that socio energy. So that's what makes the interview even better when it's like someone super famous and you talk to them and you're like,

yo, you're low-key a scumbag like me. We will get along. Yeah. Let's change numbers. Tell me about the book. The book. It's coming out today.

Where this podcast goes up Tuesday night. The book will be out. You can get it on Amazon, wherever you get your books. God Level Knowledge Art, Life Lessons for the Bronx. It's the Canterbury Tales for this generation

of two young heroes, two young Christ figures from the Bronx as they make their way across America. No, that's the Grapes of Wrath. Sorry, I'm getting confused. No, it's just our book. We're just talking crap, talking about our lives before we got famous, lessons we learned in the Bronx, some stuff about shoplifting, some stuff about selling drugs, some stuff about making meals with potatoes. It's all in there. It's literally anything you can find like relationship advice like jesus said surviving off potatoes uh you know what do you do uh when you are broke and you need to pay rent stuff like

that like little nuggets of advice you know and the my favorite thing about the book as a former educator is it's it's we used to do this thing called chunking. Like, you know, and read in chunks. And the book is so chunky because it's great. Because it has big chunks, it has little chunks, it has medium chunks. So depending on the length of your dump, you know what I mean? Like, you can choose what you want to read. And you don't have to read it in order either.

You know what I mean? So you can pick it's not you don't have to read it in order either you know what i mean so you can pick it up you know there's a wonderful chapter about the heartbreak i experienced to the red socks in 2004 oh my god i write it i have a boner listen that is i remember i will never forget that series and i write it in there and you can feel my pain if you are a boston fan no matter how bad this year is, you will reread that chapter like, yeah, take that, young Jesus.

Yeah, in your face. You jerk. We broke Rivera. People said it couldn't be done. You broke Rivera, and you broke me. You broke me. Listen, I would be way more upset about it, but at the time, I was dating a transplant from dorchester who lived in

staten island so every time i went to her house i had to stay there so i watched that entire series in her apartment in staten island she's a red sox fan i was a yankees fan but i didn't care because after every game i got laid no matter what so So, you know, getting a little toppy takes the sting away from a loss after, you know? Very fair. Not for DJs, though. There was no sting to be taken off. After game seven, it was raining

when the Yankees lost game seven, and I'm walking back to the subway. I slip. I basically open up my knee. It's ripped through my favorite pair of jeans. Now I have a bloody knee, a ripped pair of G-Star jeans. I get on the two-train going uptown. Everyone in New York is crushed. No one's talking. Everyone is in like Yankees gear, but they got caught in the rain. It's just the most depressing train ride ever. This lady gets on the train at 96th Street, makes eye contact with me

and goes, so did the Yankees win? And I just go back to her. I was like, did the Yankees win? Did he, do it look like the Yankees won? I just curse out this lady for no reason and just go back to her. I was like, did the Yankees win? Do I look like the Yankees won? I just curse out this lady for no reason and just go home. I just go home and just flop. Still hurts. Yeah, it sucked. This is great. Let's keep going. Let's do another half hour on this.

This is fantastic. It wasn't that bad. Listen, it wasn't that bad for me because I got laid. I flipped over. I went to sleep. I was like, this is bad. I woke up the next day. I felt worse.

But, you know. Can we talk about M marrow having four kids at home and also trying to work from home and like how you haven't sold that whole thing to a network for as a sitcom pilot yet listen it's you i'm putting it into the universe you know what i mean if you want to do it put gopros all over my house you can watch me have sex in the shower with my wife. We have to have covert operation, Navy SEALs, sex. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. You know the vibes.

You know what I mean? When you got the kids in the house and shit. And now it's like four, three different schools, one remote learning. Everything is all over the place. The basement is no longer my chamber of solace. It is a TV studio. And you need Wi-Fi. You need unbelievable Wi-Fi at all over the place. The basement is no longer my chamber of solace. It is a TV studio. And you need Wi-Fi. You need unbelievable Wi-Fi at all times for everybody.

At all times. Because there's six iPads going. This one's playing Fortnite. This one's like, yo, I want to watch this dribbling drill on YouTube. My wife's head is spinning 720 degrees trying to teach a kid math. It's out of control. But you know what? It's what I signed up for.

So, you know what I'm saying? It's like signing up for Tough Mudder and being like, oh, this sucks. This is hard. This sport universe thing is hard. It sounds like you should be

selling this as a show to ABC and put an ISH at the end. I don't know what the title would be, but something-ish. Because it seems like anything with an ish just sells immediately at ABC.

You do that, and watch how fast you get that cease and desist from Kenya Burris, man. He's not playing around with that. Kenya, let's do it. Alright, this was fun, guys. I'm glad you're well. Thank you. It was good to see you. Good luck

with the book. How are you doing out there in California? Because California is literally on fire. The smoke was horrible. Yeah. And it just felt like it was compounding with everything else that was going on out here. There definitely is like an end of the world

vibe. We've handled Corona most poorly out of probably any state other than Arizona and Texas. We still don't have youth sports yet. Everybody's just trapped indoors virtual learning and it's pretty nuts. We have no leadership at all in the state and

it's not good. It's wild because people from California are like, yo, earthquakes are no big deal. My cousin lived in San Diego. She's like, oh, earthquakes are no big deal. You know what I'm saying? They happen. It's the ground shakes. She's like, oh, earthquakes are no big deal. You know what I'm saying? They happen. Like it's the ground shakes. I'm like, yo, the earth is literally moving.

Like that's not, I'm not a big deal, but. We just had one over the weekend where you just kind of look at each other. I was looking at my wife and she was kind of doing this and I'm like, are we, are we?

And you kind of realize we haven't had a bad one since I moved here. But when I moved here, that was the thing I was the most afraid of. I had no idea the fires would be the thing. That'd be the scariest thing about being out here.

Because climate change, all that stuff. Every year now, we have this massive fire that rips through the state. And it's terrible. The weird thing about the earthquake, because I'm an insomniac now. I was on the timeline when it happened. And you just see every person from LA or from the West Coast just tweet at the same time. Earthquake, earthquake, earthquake, earthquake, earthquake. But everyone's reaction was kind of just

like, oh, that was kind of a rougher earthquake than usual. So I was just like, yo, what's... I was like, y'all are right over there. There's a scale for like, you know what I mean? Nah, this is a little drizzle. You know what I mean?

Like, no! The earth is... The plates are shifting under your foundation of your building. My God, this is serious. Yeah, the weirdest thing about earthquakes is you feel this, you're scared, then there's like this great relief that it wasn't bad. Right. And then deep down, you're kind of like, I want to know what it would be like to be in a bad one, to have something to compare it with.

And then you're like, no, no, no, don't think that. No, no, no, no, no, no. Don't take that. No, no, no, no. These little ones are good. Stay with these. But it is... I'll tell you, it's pretty disorienting. You feel weird for the next six to eight hours. I can imagine that. Because it's almost like your brain

gets rattled in your head. It's like you're a boxer. Oh, wow. Everything's moving. We had one semi-bad one when i was here in the mid-2000s i didn't feel right for like a day oh wow but i i might just be a loser who knows we had a baby like mini baby tremor in new york like years years ago and i've i've read about it on twitter before i actually felt it it was the one that came up like the east the east coast or whatever and like hit North Carolina

and whatever. And there was like a tremor in New York. And I was like, earthquake in New York? I was like, what are you talking about? And then I look up

and like a little picture falls off my wall and I was just like, was that it? All right, we're going to go. Who haven't you had on the show yet

that's on your list? Who's your number one draft pick? Have you had LeBron yet? No, I haven't had LeBron yet. Haven't had LeBron, haven't had Obama, haven't had Barron Trump on yet. You know, those are the big gets.

Yeah. Barron Trump would be a good one. Is he 18 yet? No, he's almost 18. He's going to replace, he's going to play in second base for the Sox next year. All right.

Good luck with the book. It was great seeing you guys. So good seeing you, Bill. Take care. Pleasure as always. Yes, sir. Lakers are fine. All right. Jeff Daniels is here.

I wish we were doing this in person. You've never been on my podcast. I've had so many great actors. You'd always been on the radar. I never know with you. Sometimes you're doing press. Other times you aren't. Are you like a media-friendly guy, would you say?

Good. I confuse you. I like that. I like where you're at right now. You're an enigma. Perfect. Wonderful. I would have loved to have had you in my studio. You're saying sometimes you'll get Jeff Bridges. Who else do you get confused with? For a while, it was William Hurt, Bill Pullman, and I have the same problem. Bridges, I remember I talked to Jeff once and I saw him at somewhere in L.A. and would love to work with him.

I've been a fan of his since Texas, the last picture show, right? Yeah. And I get confused with him, but I know that people go up to Jeff Bridges and say, my God, Dumb and Dumber. That might have been your best word. I apologize to him for that. Though I am very proud of that movie, I must say. That's like a Jeff B thing. People just getting the Jeff and the B

and then people are idiots. Whatever, it's the Jeff and then their brain stop. What is the movie people mentioned to you the most? Because you've made so many good ones. And I feel like you've been in my life ever since I saw Terms of Endearment, which I was a teenager, and that was such an impactful movie. And then four decades later, still cranking. Yeah, I certainly

Dumb and Dumber reached a wide variety of people. And dumber uh yeah reached a wide variety of people um uh and really excessively rewatchable too it's it was all the time which is what for a comedy for the jokes to still hold up even though you know it's coming that's i don't know how you do that but the fairly brothers you know struck gold with that gettysburg comes back um um the tv stuff now newsroom would probably be the the other one that really just people jump on me for which is good it's all good stuff you want you want one movie or one tv show in your career that outlives you right i've got i'm lucky i got a few well going way back to Terms of Endearment, you're in that movie, and it's just completely loaded,

and it's the most Oscar-baity movie of all time, right? It's got just an iconic Nicholson performance, James L. Brooks, Shirley MacLaine, Deborah Winger, who's like an A-plus list star at the time, and you're like the new guy in it I'm the 20 year old, who are you? yeah I took the part

that no one else in Hollywood would take because he was so unlikable you cheat on Debra Winger of all people when she has cancer not good for my brand. My client's going to pass on that. You could just hear it.

And I was like going, I'll do it. I'll do it. I'm off Broadway. I'll do it. I learned so much on that movie. So much. Watching Jack work. Man.

I remember Jim Brooks came up to Jack and said, Jack, I want to try something. We're going to go out on a limb a little bit with this idea. And Jack said, I like going out on limbs. I get in trouble out there, you know? And I would go to the set, not work, and watch Jack. Wow. And it was a great education on that kind of freeness that film acting allows you, that Jack doesn't

know what he's going to do on take three. And it was like, oh, wow, the freedom of that. Now, you got to be Jack to be able to do that. But I also got to sit there and watch dailies. Jim Brooks would let me come in and watch Jack's dailies or any dailies. He wouldn't let me watch my stuff, which was fine. But I remember seeing the two shot of Jack and Shirley in the kitchen where he tells her I'm one of 106 astronauts, you know, and he does his thing. And they did like 10 takes of it. And I saw him when he wasn't good. The first few takes, he didn't quite know it. He didn't, he wasn't, it just wasn't. And then about take six, it happened.

And then seven. And then eight was different than seven. And then nine. And then 10. And now 10 surely doesn't know what's going to happen. Right. And after that, Jim Brooks turned to me and said, which one do I use?

You know? And it was just such an education on front of the camera film acting. Your guy, Aaron Sorkin, had him on the podcast a few years ago and was asking about the famous Few Good Men story about Jack where he does the Colonel Jessup scene and then he's supposed to leave so they can get the shots of, all right, Tom Cruise, you're going to do your stuff. Jack, you can go over there.

Then we got to get Kevin Pollack's. And Jack's like, no, no no I'm going to stay here and I'm going to do it every single time I love this I don't want to leave and is in all the takes and Sorkin was saying it was such like a window into why that guy has been such a success

that he wouldn't have thought of leaving like why would I leave I get to keep acting yeah yeah it's a great lesson It's a great lesson. Especially courtroom scenes and dinner scenes. They're just death. They take weeks to shoot because you got to go so many

different angles. You sit there forever that you finally get around to you and you don't know what you're saying anymore. I've had so many actors and actresses on here at this point and a recurring theme seems to be, yeah, obviously the talent is a huge piece of it,

but you know, some sort of luck early along the way, like some role you got or somebody who passed through your life, stuff like that. In terms of endearment, looking back, it's kind of insane that you, that that's your first movie.

Think of all the first movies you could have had. Like first big movie. I mean. There was one. I mean, I was in Ragtime, but I had like two or three scenes. Yeah, I meant like real part. Yeah. A real part. Big ass part. Was True. And again, it was because nobody else wanted it. Yeah. And I was

cheap. I worked for the minimum. So it was... And Debra, I met with Debra. She okayed me. Ooh. So she had okay power at that point oh yeah oh sure sure um and should have um but yeah i remember and then it came out and um it came out in thanksgiving at thanksgiving and raiders of the Lost Ark was kind of the big thing. And a lot of those kind of movies. So there really wasn't a well-written character driven with smart, funny dialogue. We hadn't seen one of those in a while. Plus we had those three megastars. So we jumped right out. And then the Oscar nominations came out. And as a friend of mine said even the guy who

combed your hair got nominated so and i didn't i didn't you guys okay it was okay bias no it was okay i was 28 and uh it was it was i had to watch the Oscars at home and, and I was okay. You know, you're going, what? But you're, it was good. It was good. And then right after that, I got the purple Rosa Cairo with Woody Allen. And that was a big break, huge break. Right. You know, it's funny. You mentioned how people hate that character. There are actors that have trouble shaking that. Like I would say, I thought Tony Goldman in Ghost

we just did Ghost for this podcast called The Rewatchables and he's so hateful in that movie because basically he got Swayze killed and it was hard to see him in other movies without thinking he was the guy from Ghost like you take this baggage when you're the audience to the next movie

with this person and you were able to shed that obviously but I remember that at the time, hating your character so much in terms of endearment. Oh, that was, yeah, that was the running. I'd get in a cab in New York. He goes, you were in terms of endearment. I said, yeah, God, I hated you.

Thank you very much. Appreciate it. You know, you get that. You know, Redford said when he did Sundance, I mean, yes, he's gorgeous anyway, but that's kind of what he got were those quiet, silent, great, handsome, leading men roles. And I certainly got either the cheating husband or the flawed hero or the secondary character who wasn't up to the qualities of the leading man, something. That's kind of what I got stuck with.

And, you know, it took something like Dumb and Dumber to blow that all up, which is one of the reasons I did that. I would say Something Wild for me, that kind of opened the ceiling in my brain for you, where I was like, oh, the guy from Terms of Endearment, look at this. Now he's doing this stuff. And it was kind of like, all right, I don't know what to expect from him now. Yeah, and it really, that was me ripping off Jack Lemmon and Dick Van Dyke.

If those two guys had a baby, that's who Charlie Driggs was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was the kind of movie that when I, as I was growing up, they made those movies and that movie was kind of an homage to those movies. And now they, those movies don't get made anymore like that. Where you just take two stars and you just kind of unleash them. Now you'd be wearing like a comic book suit.

Comic book suit in front of a green scene talking to a tennis ball. Yeah. I don't know. I guess now they just kind of morphed into TV and stuff like that. Well, what's happened is, and Jim Gandolfini started it with The Sopranos, he and David Chase. All the writing's gone there to the cable side.

You know, HBO, Netflix, Showtime, Hulu, you name it. There's 20 of them now. That's where all the writers went. They were respected there. They didn't like hire you to write three drafts and then fire you and have somebody come in and punch up the jokes. The next time, you know, you're on a set and you realize that seven people have had their hands on this

and it looks like it. Right. And, and so that, that's where all the writing went, which is, which is where all those movies like something wild or Jane told me that Jane Fonda said, the movies I made, they wouldn't make now, but the writers have gone on the other side of the dial, so to speak. And that's good. For guys like me, that's good. I had, a couple years ago, Paul Thomas Anderson was on here. And we were talking about Boogie Nights,

which was the second thing he ever made. And at that point, 1995, 1996, your dream is to make a giant big movie with a bunch of stars in it. I was like, nowadays, wouldn't that be like an eight episode, I don't know, Amazon show or HBO show. And you get more money and you get to explore the characters further. And he was probably would have done that. You have the production value.

You have the money to do it right. And as an actor, you get to, you get to shoot the novel. You're not shooting the short story, the 90, the 100-page, 100-minute script with, you know, you get more to do. And the writing's better. And with Godless, with Netflix, you know, Scott Frank had that Western for, I remember we shot The Lookout in Winnipeg in 2003 or something. And he said, I've got this two-hour Western.

Nobody will make it. Yeah. And he kept trying for 10 years. And then he finally went to Netflix and they'll go, can you make it seven hours? You know? And it just changed. For guys like me, it's gold. It's why I'm still in the business.

Well, I don't want to say you've reinvented yourself, but I like how you've always moved in different directions. And I think that started in the 80s where not really ever knowing what to expect from you. I mean, in 94, I think it was 94, you made Speed and Dumb and Dumber in the same year. Yeah. And those are two of the most rewatchable movies of the last 30 years.

Speed is iconic. I mean, that basically created the summer blockbuster. You could say Jaws did and movies like that, but I remember watching that happen before it came out because that was the height of the premiere magazine and the whole movie culture and kind of knowing what was coming. And the speed is like,

this movie is getting such insane buzz. They're moving it up. It's like, Whoa, they're moving up speed. I didn't even know what speed was. So they're moving it up. Yeah.

They want to get a jump on the summer. What, what does that mean? It's a story about a bus. You can't go under 55, you know, but you're in it. And spoiler alert, otherwise everyone's seen it.

But you know, that was a great gimmick of like your guy dies halfway through. That wasn't like a common movie thing. Now they try to swerve us like that all the time. But in the mid nineties, when you died, it was like, Holy shit, they killed Jeff Daniels. How did they do that? When I got that script, the career wasn't in a great place at that point. And I got that script and I died on page 22. I died in the elevator shaft. Yeah, Keone and I were in the elevator looking for whoever. And I fall down and I die.

I'm going, the career's in trouble, but it's not in that much trouble. Pass. And they go, no, no, no. We got another draft. You die later. Oh. It's like how many pages later page 85 or something out of 120 and in the house yeah i said all right i'm in and and i got to work with kiana who was at the height of his fame or well pre pre-matrix um

and i remember the scene where i go into the house and then I turn and look at the thermostat and I realize it's hooked up to the bomb and then a second later the house blows up with me in it and I'm going how am I going to do this and I remember an interview that Roy Scheider did and they asked Roy, Roy when you saw that shark in the water and you were standing at the end of the boat, the look on your face, oh my God, what acting. Roy said, I just looked down,

scrunched my cheeks up, and then when I saw the shark, I let him drop. It was just a cheek thing. So I did that. And it's the most memorable face in the movie. I had critics say that moment, that moment.

Film institutes are studying that moment. I'm going, just dropping some cheek muscles. I think it's almost a perfect action movie. It's exhilarating the whole time. It's got a huge star.

It's got a great sidekick. And then Sandra Bullock at an awesome point in her career when she's not a star yet, but you can tell she is. Great people on the bus. Totally rewatchable. You can hop in at any point. It's perfect. And it's been funny that he's been able to

three different times kind of rejuvenate that kind of action. He does it with The Matrix and then he comes back as John Wick in this decade. The same kind of thing, these rewatchable action things. Were you surprised that he was in an action movie in 94?

Do you see that coming? With Speed? Just Keanu as the lead as like this you know superhero type because he hadn't played anybody like that before yeah but no I never thought about it I'm going oh yeah Keanu of course he fits that kind of you know

come in yeah and look the fact that he's still going I admire anybody who can last decades. And that's an achievement in this business where you find out you're over on Tuesday. Right. So you're in with him. He becomes a super duper star.

Same year, you're in with Jim Carrey, who has one of the great years of all time. He's in that movie. He's in Dumb and Dumber. He's in Ace Ventura. He's in The Mask all in the same year. He rips out three mega hits. And by the end of it, he's an A++ list superstar who can make every movie he wants.

But when you filmed Dumb and Dumber with them, he wasn't famous like that, right? No. And you're right. Jim Carrey became jim carrey yeah um when we were shooting dumb and dumber he had he had shot and released ace ventura which did well but was what it was and he had shot mask and the word was it was good but they were still cutting it so we're're starting to shoot Dumb and Dumber. So we're halfway through.

We're in the spring, so we're halfway shooting. It's early May. Jim leaves on a Friday night, flies to Cannes to do the premiere of Mask on Saturday, and then flies back to shoot on Monday back in Salt Lake City or wherever we were. And when he came back from the premiere of Mask at the Cannes Film Festival, it was starting to happen. And Jim was the same. We finished shooting. And then six months later, when we're doing press for Dumb and Dumber, it was, it had happened. Jim was still there. I mean, we were still still friends and good friends, but there were 10 people around him and it was just boom. I saw it happened to Chris Reeve.

I saw it happen to Bill Hurt, Keanu a little bit indirectly. Um, yeah, I've been to Emma Stone, Ryan Reynolds. I did a little independent movie with them before they blew up. I'm kind of that guy you stand next to if you want to blow up. I didn't see that on your IMDb, but that's a good quality. People always say when that happens, the person doesn't change right away, but everything around them changes. They're the same person, everything around them is is different and how they deal with that ends up shaping what happens next. It's whether it happens to Jim Carrey or someone like me,

the people around you change. Yeah. And, and just little things, you know, their voices get higher, they talk faster. Just some of that stuff happens that you, it throws you off. You know, everybody wants something. They want their peace. Yeah. They're entitled to part of what your success is. They're entitled to some of that.

What do you mean? No. Why are you telling me no? Right. So they don't teach you how to deal of that what do you mean no why are you telling me no right so at that they don't teach you how to deal with that in star school you know you got to kind of how to learn how to deal with that you mentioned chris reeve and william hurt is that like a like a broadway thing like a we were we were stage actor thing stage actor we were in an off-broadway play together in 77 i I think, called My Life at Circle Rep. And we shared a dressing room.

Bill Hurt, Chris Reeve, and me. Holy shit. I was 22. Bill was trying to decide whether he was going to take Love Story 2 if they couldn't make a deal with Ryan O'Neill. Ryan wanted more money than they were willing to pay. And Bill was kind of on standby, and he was wrestling with the decision. And then Chris Reeve came in

with a week to go in the run of this play that had been killed. We were playing to 20 people a night and said, I got to fly to London after Sunday's matinee and screen test for Superman on Monday, but don't worry, I'll be back to London after Sunday's matinee and screen test for Superman on Monday. But don't worry, I'll be back on Tuesday to finish the run. And Bill tried to talk him out of it.

He said, you can't do that. You cannot do that. You're an artist. You cannot do that. All legit reasons. And I'm over there sitting eating M&Ms going, wow, can I go? And then he came back and he got it. He got it.

I just read a whole thing about this movie and they're trying to cast it. They're trying to cast all these stars and none of the stars wanted to wear the suit. And they realized they had to get somebody who was relatively anonymous because like Warren Beatty was supposed to be Superman at one point. And it's all about, you have to look incredible in that suit. It's not like Batman where you can stack it up in the chest and add some things. You're pretty naked

in there. They realized they had to go with the unknown. That makes sense. Nobody will do it. Let's get the best unknown we can get and let's break somebody. Chris Reeve broke with that role. Well, and then use the supporting actors to put your star power. Yeah.

Surrounding. William Hurt, he comes out of the gate and he's in like seven famous movies in a row. And I think got nominated for like Oscars like three, four years in a row. But it was always like a famously intense guy. Was he like that in the 70s? I've always been fascinated by him. Oh, yeah. Bill's always been really focused, really intense.

He's an artist, man. He's an artist. And if it's not right for him, he doesn't do it. He's one of those guys. Deborah, it was Deborah Wingers like that as well. But yeah, bill's really intense really intense he's a good guy you know a good guy i got along with him fine you know when bill would get too intense i'd go bill how about them yankees come on did you audition for big chill

no no have you been in a movie with him? No. I don't think you have. I don't think so. Well, I did a TV thing with Bill for 5th of July. No, that was Richard Thomas. Bill had done the original,

a play I did in 1978 at Circle Wrap-Off Broadway. Bill Hurt played the lead role and I played his lover in a play called did in 1978 at Circle Rap Off Broadway. Bill Hurt played the lead role and I played his lover in a play called Fifth of July by Landon Wilson. That's where we worked together. So when you did Dumb and Dumber, how much ad-libbing was in that?

Oh, what? How much ad-libbing? How much did they let you loose on that one? I wouldn't say there was a lot. There was some. But Jim would kind of let me know yeah uh i'm gonna riff on the song the mockingbird song okay and you just go with them um but it's almost like stage acting well but it's like rolling off somebody's performance but you don't know what quirk they might throw into it yeah Yeah, but it should also be film acting. You know?

It's act-react. Spencer Tracy is one of the best reactors we've ever had. But people are so busy acting in front of a mirror that it looks like it and it feels like it. But when you start to go play ping pong back and forth with somebody like Jim Carrey or Meryl Streep, my God, they're doing half your work for you. With Dumb and Dumber 2, the studio wanted a comedian to go next to Jim. Jim wanted an actor because I need somebody who's going to

react and make me listen. And it's a buddy-buddy movie. I'm a solo performer. I need someone who's going to make me listen. It's two guys, not one. And so he really insisted on an actor. And when you go in, and one of the reasons that he didn't want a comedian was that they would try to top each other other like comedians do. It's this, it's this, it's this, it's this. That's not what we're doing here. And so how do I fit in? And I made the decision, I think on day two of shooting, where the light bulb went off.

I'm going, oh, my God, I'm the puppy on a leash. Lloyd is tugging the leash. You know. Lloyd is the leader because Jim's going to lead anyway. It's his instinct. So you just follow. You go wherever Lloyd wants you to. And so when he pulls you, just put yourself on a one second delay. Harry, what? Just put yourself, just let him pull you through the scene. And then it worked. Then it worked. You know,

they make that mistake sometimes with comedies where they'll put the big ass comedians together. And you're right. When they try to start topping each other and competing with each other, you can kind of feel it in the movie. It is a smart way to do it. I mean, improv has a place, you know, like the most annoying sound in the world and dumba dumber that was

yeah i'm just throwing something there a dumba number two there was morad living he was just trying more stuff and i would just roll with them but i you know i stuck to the script you know i haven't taken any improv classes so you know i don't there's a whole you got to learn how to do that and and i i just never did and so it was uh it wasn't that much ad-libbing on the first one it was pretty there was a lot of precision yeah um you know you got to get the setup right to get the joke and if you fuck the setup up or if you are trying to top his joke with something else, then we didn't get the first joke. And,

and it, so there was a, there was kind of a, a, a, not a scientific approach, but a, a one and a two and a three,

uh, and then hide that. Uh, there was a lot of technique going on so that we could get the jokes that, that the Farrelly brothers wanted. So I'm a child of divorce. You made one of the iconic divorce movies. Yeah. Squid and the Whale. I don't know what the, what the Pantheon is,

but it's on there with Kramer versus Kramer and a couple others. It's, it's not a feel good movie. It's painful. But what you must get a ton of reaction to that one from, from kids at divorce, right? I would assume.

Yeah. I mean, a little bit. It's, it's one of those that not everyone has seen. Uh, but it, it's, yeah, uh, it certainly was an honest portrayal, Noah Baumbach. And, you know, he wrote it and he directed it. And that was another one of those singular voice. There weren't three writers on it. It was one writer. They had just enough money to make it um we shot that thing and i remember on

the day we wrapped the movie it was like nobody's gonna see this we're not gonna get we had no distribution this is well it was fun working with laura and then the toronto film festival got it then the new york festival got it And then it was off to the races. Yeah. To me, he was like Soderbergh where, you know, his,

his early movie was so good. You just knew, you know, and then sometimes they'll go in a couple of different directions, but you just knew he was going to be involved in some big movies. So anytime he had anything, I was always excited. Cause I love kicking and screaming. It's one in some big movies. So anytime he had anything, I was always excited because I love Kicking and Screaming. It's one of my favorite movies.

And when I was like, oh, he's making a divorce movie? I was like, oh, no. And now he just did it again. It's almost like in a weird way he made... He did. I don't even know if it's a sequel. It's like a cousin. Yeah.

But same one. And that's probably in the pantheon too but so raw i mean it's a topic it's so funny so many people get divorced and yet it's not in that many movies it's not that many movies successfully either yes i i and then he cast anna paquin as my love interest which you know anna and i had been had done a flyaway home when she was, I think, 12 at the time. Oh, wow. Now she was early 20s. I said, Noah, he goes, yes, I just cast her, you know, for those playing along at home.

I go, oh, nice, nice. I remember we were shooting a scene where Jesse Eisenberg opens the door, and I'm in a bedroom, and I'm standing there, and I got my hands up Anna's shirt and my hands on her breasts. And we're getting ready to shoot, and Anna's standing there, and I'm standing there. And the cinematographer says, one second, I got to change a mag, something. And I'm going, and I look out the window. Oh, my God. And I said, Anna.

She goes, what? I said, look at the geese. Jeez. The newsroom? Yeah. Was it two years or three? I can't evenroom. Yeah. Two. Was it two years or three? I can't remember.

Um, three, two and a half, but three and a half. Yep. Um, Sorkin's been on this podcast. We did a rewatchables too. It's a friend of the program.

What was your, your, your voyage, your first voyage with him on a TV show like that in a real, where you're the lead, was it going into that, you're like, first of all, this is the closest you can come to actually being on stage,

but actually be on TV with the amount of words you probably had to memorize. But what were your expectations versus how it played out? I looked at that as the project that would keep me in the business i was i was i had had enough and i wasn't gonna play uh the asshole father of some 28 year old who was going to make 10 million and couldn't remember his lines I wasn't going to be that actor. And so I was going to get out. I was going to be done. And, and then, um, we heard about it. And so we pitched me and Aaron and Scott Rudin's Scott knew me from, from Broadway got a carnage, I think. And, uh, um, or no Scott knew me from the hours. Anyway, uh, they met with me

at the Four Seasons Hotel in New York. I went right to the top of the list. Aaron had seen apparently Purple Rose of Cairo and had really liked me since then. So I was, uh, oh my God, let's meet him. And the only thing that I had to show him was he wasn't sure I could be angry enough to be Will McAvoy, outraged, and so you go, okay, and I got tipped to that. The agent said, Rudin says he needs to see you angry. Oh, okay, so we're sitting in the breakfast room of the Four Seasons Hotel, and it's all, you know, that. And so I just told a story about something that had happened and, and I ended up slamming the table and, you know, people are turning around looking and Aaron's going, okay, all right. Okay. Just, you know, that's not good.

Good, good, really good. And, uh, and I said, look, you know, I'd love to do this, Aaron. And, and, and ever since West Wing, and I told him that, I said, I watched West Wing to watch the writing. I watched that writing coming down the hall. I watched that writing in the room. You know, you watch Network that Paddy Chayefsky wrote, and you want Paddy Chayefsky in that room when you're watching it. You want to know that that was written by somebody like Paddy Chayefsky. It's not just William Holden and Faye Dunaway. Great performances, but there's a third person in there. It's the same thing when you read a great novel. You want to know that it's been written by somebody who knows what the fuck they're doing. And West Wing showed me that. And so I looked at it as a great opportunity to

get me interested in being an actor again. So when I got the gig, they only had to tell me once, no ad-libbing, and memorize it exactly as he wrote it. Don't add or subtract a word, okay? Which you know how to do, right? That's one of your best skills. That's the theater.

I mean, that goes from back to circle rep right? That's one of your best skills. That's the theater. Yeah. I mean, that goes from back to circle rep off Broadway, Lanford Wilson. Why are you saying it that way? That's not what I wrote. Yes, sir. So you're, you know, and it's also respect for the writer.

Yeah. It's only when you get scripts that like three or four writers and with notes from a junior executive that are shoved into there that's when you got to start ad-libbing and improvising to fucking make it sound like you're a human being right not something was said and that so with with Aaron you get to oh I'm I all I have to do is write it so so that was the deal and and I told him to tell all the directors because I'd have a different director every week and that was the deal and and i told him to tell all the directors because i'd have a different director every week and that was a different experience you know you do a movie it's one director you do tv show nine episodes it's usually at least seven directors right i said you tell

every director that with me it's five words or less if they come to me i mean i'll memorize every word and you'll never hear anything you didn't write. And I'll try to hit what you intended, plus add some other stuff to make it lift. But five words or less, if they can't explain it to me and what they want me to do in five words or less, tell them to stay in the chair. That was the deal. That's a good rule. And they did. It just stops directors from becoming Orson Welles. And, you know, and it's the thing of, it's the, just tell me what time it is.

Don't tell me how the watch works. Right. So, and that worked. Faster, slower, sadder, more angry. I remember the second take of the greatest, America's not the greatest country Country in the World speech, Greg Mottola came over and just said, in the second half of it, a little more melancholy. Got it.

And that's the take they used. The first take, I was angry all the way to the end. The second take, McAvoy sits back and wishes the country could be that. And that was Greg Mottola. Probably coming from Aaron or Greg, doesn't matter. But it was like, let five words or less. Just give me that and 16 things will happen based on that. That was such a polarizing show.

Some people loved it. Other people, it became one of the first real Twitter argument shows. As Twitter started to gain a real voice, which now has way too much of a voice in my opinion. Way too much of a voice, yeah. Could you feel that happening even as you were making the show, how polarizing it was? No. I remember Aaron, I think we did nine episodes, maybe 10,

and near the seventh or eighth, I remember Aaron bringing us all together in the newsroom set and just saying, we've been in a bubble for seven or eight episodes and we're almost done. When this is aired, we are no longer going to be in a bubble. So just enjoy this now. Yeah. agree with what I've done. Right. And sure enough. Yeah, we took it. We took aim. We took aim at some people, at the media. We, you know,

some of them listened, some of them didn't. It's an interesting show now given everything that's happened over the last few years. I almost wonder like, was that show too early? Was it the perfect time? What would it look like if that show was created in 2019?

Would it have been impossible to even do that? I don't know. What do you think? What would have been the perfect year to launch that show? I don't know. I think it would be more or less either. I think it would be ignored now. I don't think it could.

There's too much noise. Too much noise. And you're not going to stop the media from covering Trump in the first five minutes of every single newscast. That certainly has been the case since the primary leading up to the 2016 election. you know on Meet the Press when he gets to call in you have to come in to Meet the Press you have to sit across the table from Tim Russert now

and then you can call in and the reason we're going to let him call in is because more people will watch the show in the first 10 minutes if he calls in so we're going to let him call in is because more people will watch the show in the first 10 minutes if he calls in. So we're going to allow that. And I think Aaron and I certainly had an issue with that. Just stuff like that. Just like, don't make it easy for these guys. Right. Make them earn it. And Trump would have had to sit across from Chuck Todd or whomever and answer some questions.

That's what you want. And I think we've got people out there doing that. I think they're doing a great job of trying to inform the public in a way that they maybe weren't able to do so before Trump came into our consciousness as a presidential candidate. They certainly are aware of their responsibility now. And I don't think newsroom had much to do with that. I think they get it now. The Comey thing that you're doing now for Showtime,

September 27th, the Comey rule. Did you just like the project or did you feel like you wanted to be part of a project that was tied into something that was happening in the last five years? to kind of chase movies, he said, make it matter, make it count. I mean, he wrote it into a script I have that he had written. And you don't always get to do that. But Comey mattered. We were going to air this thing before the election. You get to play a very controversial figure and it's going to be relevant and it will inform people in a way that maybe they weren't informed in 2016 about what happened what he did and how it affects us now that's those are all reasons to do something that's a better project to be in than something that

you shoot and then people forget it as soon as it's over. I've been in those too. Well, I read that you had to wear lifts to even seem taller, which is funny because you're like the fourth tallest actor in Hollywood. I can't believe you had to have lifts. I am. It's like Clint Eastwood, Ben Yu. Who else is 6'2 and higher?

Tim Robbins. Tim Robbins. Tim Robbins can get up there. Get up there. Ben Affleck's like a solid six, two and a half. Is he? Good. Yeah. Good. Yeah. It's stunning. It's stunning when you meet your heroes. Schwarzenegger, you know.

Sly Stallone's like five, seven. Sly Stallone. You just go, no, I can't, I can't deal with this. I can't deal with this. No. Uh, yeah, I, I,

I wanted, I was looking for anything and I said, I want two inch lifts in my shoes, which will get me up to six foot five. At least I'll feel like I'm six foot eight. Yeah. But then you meet Jim Comey and you're still looking up. So,

you know, I needed Elton John's platform shoes how does this cut through all the noise I mean there's so much Trump related noise every day how does this project cut through that as it's own kind of thing I think people might be curious about what happened

really that might lure them to cut through and watch it um i also think it played billy cut it and wrote it like a thriller yeah and so it holds as it just does uh what happens next oh my god what's good what are you going to do now it holds in that way of storytelling which i think is a great plus for people to hang on to it and come back for the second night and all that stuff. And I also, too, I remember I watched it, Bill, and I didn't realize as I was shooting it. But when I got done watching it, I turned it off and I said, oh, my God, it was just we had no idea of the next three years of chaos and madness that would make this look far less than it was at the time right you know and that that's what hit me and

i think people will it'll it'll it's like the first it's like watching coming rules like watching the first inning of a baseball game and then turning out and finding out you lost 22 to 3. Right. I got a chance to see you on stage in April 2019 to kill Mockingbird. Oh. I went back. You'll like this. I went back with my family.

We went to that and then WrestleMania like maybe a day later. So it was quite a weekend. Wow. I think I might have been the only person who ripped that off in the same weekend. It's great when tourists come to New York. We always enjoy it. There's so much for them to do. I thought

the play was just outstanding. Oh, good. I'm not like a huge stage guy. I really am more of a movie TV. I'm an only child. I thought I was just, and I saw Sorkin a couple months later because he did a Rewatchables with us. And, you know,

when you're praising somebody, you never want to go overboard because it gets awkward. I was just so impressed with the detail of every single piece of it. Like even how they were doing the set and then the actors and just every single piece of it was so carefully, perfectly picked. It was just so impressive. And I, you know, I've been to enough plays where you can kind of tell the difference, but it was just like, was that going to a really good restaurant where everything is just top of the line?

You know, where it's like, ah, the waiter was fucking great. Oh man, they took my plates. I didn't even notice. And there's just like 19 things going on. It's just like the highest level of it. And it really felt that way. Did it feel like that to be in it? After we opened, yeah.

And that's the hope every time. And it has, who's in the cast? Who's directing? Are the sets good enough? What's the director doing? You know, there's so much that can go wrong so fast. And we had 45 previews. Our first preview was November 1st, 2018.

And then we opened, I think, on December 13th, like six weeks later. That's 45 warm-up shows where Aaron and Scott... Is that usual? Do they usually do 45 warm-up shows? No, but it was a lot. It substitutes now for the out of town. In the old days, you'd go play Detroit, you'd go play Boston, you'd play Philly, work out all the details, and then you bring it into New York

and cross your fingers. It's less expensive to do 45 previews and then bring the cast in every day, and here are 30 pages of rewrites. I mean, every day we were rehearsing and we're putting in rewrites. He's cutting that line. He's cutting that phrase. You have a new cue for that. We want you to stand over here now instead of over there. And we go on at eight. And I remember one night I went on and I counted them. I had 30 changes in one show. And it was just like slalom skiing you're slalom skiing i've just did that change when's the next one coming and i'm and you don't even know the lines that you've got that well you're still kind of you know and and that was that's as hard as as i've ever worked as an actor and all of us together going through that and then they start hauling in the critics a week before

opening. And so you've got to open seven times before you even get to opening night, because one of those nights is going to be the New York Times and the Washington Post and Hollywood Reporter, and they're all coming. And for me, you're dealing with Gregory Peck and you're dealing with an audience that came in. You could feel them in the first weekend of previews, 1400 people who'd bought their tickets six months ago and we're bringing their paperback copy of the book, holding it right here going, don't fuck this up for me. You could feel it. And then I walk out and usually there's the star applause. Not so much, not so much because- It's like prove it to them.

It's prove it, but it's also, he's not Gregory Peck. I knew he wasn't going to be. I have an open mind. I'm still okay. Go ahead. You could feel it. And then you start to go. And then by the end of the first week, it's less of that. You're getting a good buzz, which is the good news on previews. The buzz is good. Thank God. Let's do more previews. And then about, as I said, about the hundredth performance, which for me was somewhere in late January, early February. It takes 100 shows to get on top of it. Oh, I'll say now that that's why I waited. I wanted to make sure you got the 100.

We had a bad April. It was all tourists. And we kind of phoned it in because we knew WrestleMania was in town. You can smell the tourism in the stands. Half the fucking audience is going to be at the WrestleMania thing. Let's just roll it out there and get out of here. That was April. Right.

Yeah, damn it. No, but it takes a long time to be able to ride it and play with it. And for me, that was about February. It was such a special experience to go to it. You were fantastic in the play and just everything. And then kind of the hidden subtext to where we are now as a country. And it just, there was a lot going on. And I thought, I took my daughter.

I think she was almost 14 at the time, but she loved it. And she was just old enough to, it was the first huge, she saw Hamilton, but this is the first like heavy dialogue play she'd seen. And it was just old enough to, it was the first huge, she saw Hamilton, but this is the first like heavy dialogue play she'd seen. And it was, it was pretty cool. So that was like the best way a play could go. Yep. Have you, have you had a play that was just DOA? Like your, your opening night and you're like, this is going to bomb.

This is a disaster. Cause you've been in a few of these. Yes. You don't have to say the play no usually it was off broadway yeah and and that was back when the print reviews would come out and they were kind of the 12 print reviews in new york city for your off broadway show and you need them you need them and you get panned across the board and it's over and you're in a 150-seat theater off Broadway in Sheridan Square. And there are eight people out there tonight.

And nine people in the cast. And you, like you always do, you ask the stage manager, if the cast outnumbers the audience, do we have to do the show? And the answer was always yes. we have to do the show? And the answer was always yes. You have to do the show. Who's the best actor you've ever seen on stage? There are different kinds of actors. I saw John Gielgud and Ralph Richardson do a Pinter play.

And that's the English. There was so much brilliant technique and timing and not a wasted move. I saw Al Pacino and Pablo Hummel in late seventies, I think. And Al was all over the place. He was, he was, I had seen dog day afternoon in college.

And that was whatever Al Pacino was doing in that movie. I want to go find out how to do that. And that means I have to go to New York city. And that took me to New York city, that movie. And, um, then I saw him on Broadway and he was like electric.

He was on fire. You didn't know what he was going to do. And, and since learning about Al's approach and process, he didn't know what he was going to do. And, and so that, those are two different kinds of performances that were equally,

you know, I wish I'd seen Olivier on Broadway. I was going to ask because one of my favorite writers is William Goldman and he always said Olivier was, I forget what play it was, but it was like that was the standard. Yeah. Something in the 50s. I can't remember. Yeah. Yeah. The Entertainer maybe. Well, congrats on that. That was awesome. Good luck with the Comey rule on Showtime.

Thank you very much. Thanks for all the entertainment over the years too. It was nice to meet you and really enjoyed your work over the years. I ain't Russell Mania, but I'm not bad. Thanks for coming on.