The Bill Simmons Podcast - The NBA Center Revolution, March Madness Picks, and the WWE’s Gambling Idea With Kevin O’Connor, Tate Frazier, and Brian Gewirtz

Episode Date: March 15, 2023

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O'Connor to discuss the Nuggets' struggles, who can win the West, the return of the NBA center position, NBA draft prospects, and more (1:44). Then, Bill talks with Tate Frazier about his five favorite March Madness bets, tournament narratives, best characters, and more (37:16). Finally, Bill is joined by former head writer of WWE Brian Gewirtz to discuss the idea of gambling on pro wrestling; keeping secrets within the company; the insanity of the "Hardcore Era"; theories behind Vince McMahon's return; Brian's new book, 'There's Just One Problem ... : True Tales From the Former, One-Time, 7th Most Powerful Person in WWE'; and more (1:13:09). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kevin O’Connor, Tate Frazier, and Brian Gewirtz Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, NBA, March Madness, wrestling? It's all next. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home

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We already did that one. That's in the archives from 2020. Now, we did Bad Boys from 1983. Sean Penn's breakout movie, a phenomenal movie. It was the 40-year anniversary of this month. This is still my favorite Sean Penn movie. I explained why we broke all of it down with my friend Chris Ryan.

So look out for that one. Coming up on this podcast, Kevin O'Connor and I are going to talk about the improbable re-rise of the center in the NBA. What is happening? And also, what is happening in the MVP race? Jesus, Jokic and the Nuggets falling apart. And then Tate Frazier,

who hosts One Shining Podcast for us, he's going to give us five March Madness bets to hang our hats on. And then last but not least, Brian Gerwitz, who used to work for WWE forever and went to go work for The Rock. He is a producer on Young Rock, a show that my son loves very much.

But he also wrote a book about his time in WWE. And we're going to talk about this whole gambling thing with WWE and everything that's going on with them heading into WrestleMania. So that's last. It's all next. First, our friends from ProJet. All right, we're taping this. It is a little past 7 o'clock Pacific time. Just watch the Nuggets lose yet again.

This time to Toronto, who did whatever they wanted. They almost had 50 points in the first quarter. Denver's defense has gone south. Jamal Murray has gone south. KOC, what are you more nervous about? The Nuggets one seed or the Jokic MVP bandwagon, which I think is looking pretty creaky right now or the Jokic MVP bandwagon which I think is looking pretty creaky right now.

The Jokic MVP bandwagon. There's just not enough time for Denver and all likelihood to blow their one seed lead over Memphis or Sacramento though it is tightening up. The Jokic MVP bandwagon that seems to be going off the road a little bit right now. They're only three up on Memphis in the last

column with 13 games to go. And they have some tough ones coming later this month. They have a Sixers-Bucks home combo the last weekend of March and that Monday. So I'm going to read you all the teams in the West. And we're going to talk about centers in a second. But just quickly, I just think the West looks pretty drunk right now. And we've had years where it's like, man, who's going to come out of a conference, right? We had the year where the Hawks won 60 games, but we always at least had LeBron as the barometer.

This time around, if Denver's, I'm really concerned. I've watched a lot of Nuggets basketball and I really like watching them. And it just, Jamal Murray doesn't look the same to me. He was like five for 19 again today. And defensively, the Jamal Murray doesn't look the same to me. He was like five for 19 again today. And defensively he's really slipped. And they're just getting scored on left and right. And I can't tell if they're just feel like they've clinched it or if teams

have figured something out, who knows? I'm going to read you all the teams in the West. And you tell me how many of them do you think could win, could actually win the West. So we'll, we'll say Denver. Yes.

Yes. Denver. yes. Memphis. No, until we get clarity with Ja and Steven Adams. Adams out for the rest of the season for them. He's been so critical for them on both ends. And with Ja, we just don't know right now, Bill. So I can't say with any confidence I can talk myself

into the Grizzlies winning the finals. They're young anyway, even with those guys. Yeah, I can't write with any confidence I can talk myself into the Grizzlies winning the finals. They're young anyway, even with those guys. Yeah, I can't write off a two seed. But at the same time, the Joss stuff sounds really concerning. There's been bits and drabs of information coming out. But in the whisper circles, it really doesn't seem like we're going to see him again this season. And we'll find out more information. It's not like he has to tell us what's going on,

but it seems like this is now a, let's all take a break. Let's reassess in a couple of weeks and get some help or whatever's going on. And I think they're doing a good thing, not telling us what's happening, but I can't write them off because there's a world where he just comes back in three weeks and he looks good and they have home court advantage in the first two rounds so i'm like a half yes on them sacramento i think we're both yes although i'm probably a little more excited than you about them half harder um i mean like mahoney came on the mismatch last night because verno was out and we talked a little bit about the kings and with their defense like it's tough i mean like they have the 25th ranked defensive rating. The Lakers in 01 are the last team that has won the finals

having a bottom 10 defensive rating. And with them, they have Kobe and Shaq, their team that was coasting, going for a repeat. They're over the course of the regular season. The Kings just don't have that upside. Granted, they have the number one offensive rating by far. They can play any style they want to in any series. I don't think their offense is going to slip at all in the playoffs. I just don't think their defense is good enough. But with that

said, like you're mentioning, you can't write off a two seed. But Sacramento, they do have a path. I mean, if they win the first round, and depending on what's going on with Memphis and John, all that, they can find themselves in a West final. So you can't rule them out kind of scoring their way to the NBA finals, but that's kind of a half-hearted yes on my side. KFC, you just lost your invite to the Light the Beam ceremony at the Western finals. KFC's not invited. You, KFC, they don't want you now. I had to earn back my invite after I tweeted about if the Lakers offered both picks in Westbrook for Fox in October, would the Kings just take those picks and start over?

Kings fans are still mad about it. You didn't get a lifetime ban for that, Bill? No, I'm back. I had them. The over was one of my locks of the year. I'm in. I had Malik Monk on my podcast. Phoenix I think would be a yes for both of us, right? Yeah, definitely.

How about Golden State? Yes. Basically, looking like a five seed right now where they would have a game seven on the road in every series they play, and they are seven and 26 on the road this season. I can't write them off. I can't quit you, Golden State. You can't quit a team with Stephen Curry and Klay Thompson and Draymond Green. We just saw them score 75 points in the first half the other night with Klay Thompson having 33. And Steph is still Steph. And the fact is, with them, Bill, not having Andrew Wiggins is the big reason why I think you can have hesitations,

like we're talking about with Memphis, with Adams and jaw. Wiggins has been their second or third best player, a critical wing defender, super versatile, a knockdown shooter, and he can do what he needs to do for that offense in the half court as a, as a score off the dribble. So until we find out clarity with Wiggins, um, it's like a get hard to fully buy in with golden state. Um, but at the same time, it seems like he'll come back, you would think, before the playoffs. Kerr's comments on Saturday seem to indicate more so

we don't know if it'll happen during the regular season. I'm never writing them off, especially after last year when I think I wrote them off 17 times. But they've been a 500 team for 70 games. Basically, uh, Clippers can't write them off either. How come?

Kawhi and Paul George. I'd like certain lineups that they play when they play man with those guys. I think defensively, they're going to be able to get stops. We know the playoff slows down and I just can't rule them out yet. In a weak West, I cannot. I think that's fair because of how flimsy the West is.

Yeah. I don't like what I see from them. I'm not confident. This isn't a situation where I'm like, man, it's going to be so cool when the Clippers are in the finals and I can go with my season tickets. I'm not feeling that way at all. And Clippers curse, Clippers history, all that stuff, and I can go with my season tickets, I'm not feeling that way at all. And Clippers curse Clippers history,

all that stuff. But I can't read my Kauai. Kauai is the only reason why there's any belief with, with the Clippers. And some vets. Tyloo has coached in some games. Yeah. That gets subtracted by Russell Westbrook,

the presence of him. Yeah. I feel like he's going to be gone by like April 7th. Hey, remember when Russell Westbrook was on the Clippers for three weeks? Minnesota, I'm writing off. Yeah, fair. Dallas, I'm writing off.

Definitely fair. Their defense stinks. Yeah, that team doesn't have it. That Kyrie trade is going to be, I think that's going to look like a swollen, pulsating zit in about two weeks. Lakers. I'm not writing off at 33 and 35. We have no idea if LeBron's coming back this season, and yet I can't write them off. And part of me wonders,

did you catch that thing where Darvin Hamm said LeBron was gone for a week, and now it's great to have him back with the team? I was like, where did LeBron go? I just feel like, you know, we've seen him kind of ramp up for eight to ten weeks physically and maybe that's all he can do at this

point, but I keep coming back to the bubble where that long, long break bubble ends and LeBron looks awesome for, what was that, nine, ten weeks? Could that be lurking this time? As long as they just get in, does he have nine weeks in him?

I'm not betting against him. Well, Ham said everything's going according to plan. LeBron's shooting before the game. He posts the photo on Instagram of him in a hyperbaric chamber, recharging. He's coming back. He's going to be the first person to beat plantar fasciitis in like six weeks.

Six-month injury. LeBron's like, nahciitis in like six weeks. It's like a six-month injury. LeBron's like, nah, it ended in six weeks. Pelicans writing off. Everyone else in the West writing off. So we basically had one, two, three for me, four, five, six, seven teams we could see winning the West. That's insane. Yeah. I think I had six because I said no on Memphis.

Yeah, I had seven. You had six. Yeah. And of those, the Lakers are the bottom that we're saying yes to, but they're probably not sixth or seventh on our respective boards. We're talking finals favorites in the West, are they? From a Vegas standpoint, they

are. I'd probably have them in the, in the top five for me, just cause the rest of the West is so weak. And if they can just time the LeBron AD thing and just get like four weeks out of those guys together, as crazy as that sounds, that might be enough to get them in round three. I just, I have so many questions about whether those guys can stay in the court. To me, that is, that's even shakier than, am I going to get six more weeks out of Kawhi? I just, I have so many questions about whether those guys can stay in the court.

To me, that's even shakier than, am I going to get six more weeks out of Kawhi? Like if I had my injury, who do I believe in the least rankings? I would have both LeBron and AD over Kawhi in terms of staying healthy. LeBron after this time off though? Right. Well, that's the thing. Fresh off his trip to Germany or wherever, hyperbaria land,

wherever the hell he went. But you know he's getting all the doctors trying to work on that thing. I'm going to move to big men. This is why I invited you on. I realized something that the center position is kind of back where think back to 2016. We had 948 win teams and here were the centers on those teams.

Golden State, this is the year they won 73 games. Bogut and undersized Draymond Green, not really a center. San Antonio, Matt Bonner and Boban were their centers. They won 67 games and they basically would play, go small with LaMarcus Aldridge.

He's not a center. Cleveland, Moskov and Channing Frye, who I think was like a part-time podcaster at that point. And then they would play Tristan Thompson at center. Toronto, Jonas Valanciunas and Bismack Biambo. That was the

freaking Twin Towers compared to the other shit that was going on. OKC, this was the year they had the 3-1 lead in the West Finals and then blew it. Steven Adams and Perkins. That's like an above average center combo. Perkins was pretty washed at that point.

The Clippers had DeAndre Jordan. Miami had Hassan Whiteside during his one good Hassan Whiteside run. The Celtics, Kelly Olenek. 48 wins with Kelly Olenek. And then last but not least, Charlotte won 48 games with the rotation of an aging Al Jefferson,

a young Cody Zeller, and the immortal Frank Kaminsky. And those were the nine center combos on the 48 teams we had. The all-NBA that year for centers, Jordan, Cousins, Drummond. That was our threesome. All right, now fast forward. This year, our top seven teams in order, Milwaukee, Brooke Lopez, and basically Giannis when he decides he can play there too. Brooke Lopez having an incredible year. Celtics, Horford, Rob Williams, Denver, Jokic, Philly, Embiid,

Cleveland, Jared Allen, Memphis, Triple J, Sacramento, Sabonis. Are we a center's league now, KOC? Center's back, maybe. It is. You didn't even mention Mobley next to Allen or Jackson next to Adams and Mitchell Robinson and Julius Randall or some of the

teams that are towards the middle, Clint Capella and John Collins or young teams, the Magic magic Wendell Carter and Paulo Banqueiro like you just said that because Saruti's on this the next four teams in the standings after the seven I gave you the centers are Nick Claxton Mitchell Robinson DeAndre

Aiton and Bam out of bio those guys are really good yeah that's our top 11 it's deep I mean like how many like you mentioned that the seven years ago how many teams were really playing lineups with two bigs i mean think about all the combinations right now like whether it works or doesn't like you get the heat going to add kevin love because i want to pair him with bam at a bio the wolves trade a bunch of rudy gobert to pair him with carl anthony

towns we haven't really seen it but teams trying to get two bigs the calves with mobley and alan adams and jackson on the grizzlies horford and williams on the celtics like there's a lot of good teams and you know middle teams that are rolling out consistently rolling out good quality two man two big lineups and that's because of the way bigs have evolved right like some of those teams they're they're two non-shooters um but most of them for them you know there's guys that can at least handle from the outside banquero mobley or there's guys who can shoot from the outside like jackson with the grizzlies horford with the celtics brooke lopez an older guy who has evolved he's kind of the poster boy

of that in my opinion considering what he was as a low post guy with the Nets many years ago. And he's become one of the better shooting bings in all of basketball. The position has evolved, and that's what allowed so many teams to continue playing with skill, but also now with size. Yeah, centers we didn't mention. I mean, these eight guys might be in the playoffs

if things break right. Anthony Davis, you might have heard of him. Rudy Gobert, who Minnesota traded out 100 picks for. Jonas Valanciunas, Stephen Adams, if he comes back. Anthony Davis, you might have heard of him. Rudy Gobert, who Minnesota traded at 100 picks for. Jonas Valanciunas. Steven Adams, if he comes back. Capella. Porzingis, who's averaging 22 and nine for the Wizards. It's a good year for him.

Jakob Pertl, who's been really good on Toronto. And Vucevic on Chicago, if they snuck in, he's a 20-a-game guy. I split it into tiers. And we didn't mention Walker Kessler. We didn't mention Miles Turner, who's averaging 18 and 8. We didn't

mention Carl Anthony Towns, who's hurt, but was a possible third-team OMBA in a different world. Christian Wood is averaging 17 and 8 for Dallas. Not even discussed. And then you get into that whole Mitchell Robinson, Mason Plumlee, Kavon Looney, Stephen Adams world.

And then young guys, Jalen Duren, Shengun, our guy, Okongwu, James Wiseman, and then a bunch of guys coming. So let's go back to Brooke Lopez because I think this is the key to figuring out what the fuck's going on here. So Brooke Lopez comes in the league. Charlotte should have drafted him. They took DJ Augustine over him.

They screwed up. He goes, who drafted him? I'm blanking. The Nets. The Nets. So he's on the Nets. Has this whole different incarnations of runs with the Nets.

Gets pretty close to being a possible finals team. They just couldn't get over the hump. Then they go into the rebuild, ends up on the Lakers for a weird year. And then he just seems like, you know, he's basically one of those guys floating around for the one year, $4 million contract, whatever. But he was a really good inside low post player. And I've talked about this before, but that one of those years, the Celtics had their pick. Lopez was just carrying the nets in these games and in crunch time. And he's just this old school footwork. And over the last five years, he's completely redone his entire resume. They space him in the corners. He still has the ability to bang people down low. He still has the ability to rebound, but he can also play away. And then defensively, he's reinventing himself.

And if you watch tape of Brook Lopez 10 years ago to now, it wouldn't look like the same guy, except for their heads. You wouldn't even know you were watching the same human being. It makes me wonder, like, is Roy Hibbert watching this going, oh man, if I had just figured out,

I would have been a three-point shooter. But his transformation, I think, sums everything up because 10 years ago, you would have wanted him near the basket. Now you want him in a way for the basket. So I guess my question for you is the style changes start early 2010s, right? And then the career comes in and the three-point shooting and the spacing and the lineup flexibility. Have we just had a long runway now for bigs to figure out how to play this style and that's what's happening? Or do you think we have just more talent and we're in a talent boom? Because to me, maybe it's the style thing more than the talent boom thing.

I think it's more so style. i'm sure the talent boom has something to do with it um but like you think about the older players like brooke lopez he's posting up six seven eight times during his 20 point per game seasons with the nets and like he's one of the highest you know most efficient you know highest volume post players he's had time from his mid 20s until now he's 34 years old to work on translating his touch from hook shots and drop steps and pummeling through

contact to now like okay how can I make this touch work from three point range he's always been a good free throw shooter he's had a little bit of an elbow game so he's had time to do that but now you have kids who are 10, 11, 12 13 years old who are doing that since before they're teenagers.

And I think that's what's really been happening with a lot of the bigs who come up. In 2016, your question makes me think about an interview I had with Carl Anthony Towns. In 2016, my first year with The Ringer, I did a with like the headline i think like the nba's big man boom and we talked to miles turner and carl anthony towns and joelle bead and it was like chris taps porzingis and like there's you know like we said who were the guys are going to turn into stars and cat i asked him like so you shoot a ton of threes you didn't shoot in college because you were told not to but you shoot a ton of threes you didn't shoot in college because you were told not to but you shoot a ton of threes now who were the guys that you were watching growing up and he listed like all guards and wings and dirt wow right and so i think now you have kids who are growing up watching brooke lopez shoot threes right like it's not just dirk who's doing it anymore it's

not just uh they're not just outliers it's's the norm now. So I think more than anything else, that's what's happened is that players are young and they're watching positionless basketball occur and knowing that regardless of your size, you can do anything on the court and a coach is going to utilize those talents to the fullest. You're not just going to play inside because you're tall anymore. Yeah. I laid out a whole list and I tried to rank all the centers and I was just stunned by how many good ones there were. You could argue Jared Allen isn't one of the top 14 centers in the league if you really wanted to do different rankings. And somebody like Purtle might not even be in the top half of starting centers. And now I'm starting to wonder, you're working on the

draft stuff. You had the draft guide for us. Wemba Nyama is coming into this. And I wonder if he's going to be the face of all of this, right? He's, I don't know what position he is. And I know he doesn't want to be labeled as a center, but he's going to play there. He's going to be a center defensively at the very least. But we also have that Filipowski, Lively, Clowney, Jackson Davis. We might have four or five more of these guys coming in and playing next year on top of the 25 guys we already have. And it makes me wonder, you can really only play one center, right? Unless it's a situation like Triple J where he can play off somebody. But for the most part, these guys have all canceled each other out where you, you know, in the old days,

you wanted like, oh, you need to have multiple centers. And, you know, it's just not like that anymore. And I wonder, like, is it an inefficiency that you can exploit? Or like, I look at the Gobert trade. Was that just a mistake to pay that much for a center when there's so many centers? Like, are there so many in there that you actually, you can just get them on the cheap, almost like running backs in the NFL? Is that where we're headed? What do you think of like where we're headed? I mean, I think, you know, there are a lot of two man, two, two big lineups right now. Um, granted, like it's not like they're two centers, right? Like, like you said, it's a Jackson type of

guy who does that. In the case of Rudy Gobert... Or Horford. Yeah, Horford, somebody like that. In the case of Gobert, I've liked Gobert for years. I pushed for him to win Defensive Player of the Year. I feel like he is an unbelievable defender in his own right. But when you consider he's making $35 million and you see him go from Utah to Minnesota, and then you see Walker Kessler on a rookie contract, produce atokic, unless they are like a true potential outlier, like what you hope Evan Mobley turns into as a switchable piece on defense and an initiator on offense, unless you're that, do you want to be more in the Jared Allen, Robert Williams,

you know, tier of paying a center? Is there a line where you're paying too much? 20, Robert Williams is probably 15 range. Yeah, 17, something like that. Is that where you want to be paying bigs and then try to go cheaper than that unless they're that top level guy? I think

that's what I want to know. What would KOC the GM do? What would you do if you're building a team? Would you just get three Mo Bamba type salaries and throw them all together and try to do the inefficiency thing? Sabonis 18.5 like Steven Adams 18 I think that's the sweet spot and then you're distributing salary to the wing and guard spots your primary initiators on the outside unless

it's you know Jokic unless it's Giannis obviously that goes without saying for big salaries yeah for sure they're just they're outliers well one thing I wonder like and you saw this last year with Jalen Dern who went I think 13th. The pick got traded.

You're better off now if it's outside the top 10 and you can grab a center. Like Kessler, Utah has that dude now for five years, basically, at this ridiculous... It's almost like having a rookie quarterback. They could have a center they could build around for 30 to 35 minutes a game. And he's making like 2 million a year or something. I always wondered why teams didn't roll the dice more with bigger guys the last couple of years. Cause I felt like in the draft, and we talked about this on some of the draft stuff we did. It felt like in the draft, they were becoming like too, too kind of non-sexy as a pick.

People would much rather take these wing guys or point guards that had a chance for the upside. I was like, man, these big guys, at least you know you can get like 15 minutes out of them. You know, and I bet this year, like all those guys you had, you had four centers in the 20s. You had Clowney, 21,

Filipowski, 25, Lively, 27, Jackson Davis, 28. And that might rise and fall depending on what happens tournament but I wonder if the teams will take those guys higher because of what we're talking about I think especially a guy like

Noah Clowney on Alabama everybody talks about Brennan Miller as the best prospect on that team but Clowney you know he kind of checks the boxes of what we're talking about with somebody who has size he's 6'10 he has a long wingspan seven foot two he's got some bulk he's got rim protection ability but he's also versatile on defense he has the ability to step out on the perimeter and granted his shots been

up and down this year for Bama like he's at least shown the ability to be a competent three-point shooter where if you're projecting forward he's the type of guy you feel like you could pair him with another big like he could pair him with another big. Like he could play in those two big lineups that some teams are able to pull off. Same thing with Filipowski. His perimeter defense needs to improve, but he's seven feet.

He's got skills on the perimeter as a handler, DHOs, you know, a developing shot. Some of those guys, I think if you're a team drafting a big, they're not like the Jalen Duran, Walker Kessler category. That's more Derek Lively, like a rim-running, rim-protecting center. But those guys, I think, fit the category of those potential one big on the floor or one of two bigs on the floor.

I mean, with Clowney, it's interesting. I've bounced around with him. I had him late lottery at one point. I got him 21 now. We'll see where he actually ends up. But I think you're onto something there, though, Bill, because even like you look at last year, Jalen Duran, he's a top high school prospect. He slips out of the top 10. Mark Williams slips out of the lottery.

Mark Williams was the one that killed me. He was so clearly an NBA player. Now he's starting to show it. And he's been really good for Charlotte ever since he's got an opportunity. And Walker Kessler slips out of the top 20 despite being a great defensive player in high school and college at every level. And now he's automatically

one of the better defensive centers in the NBA as a rookie. I mean, his shot blocking is unbelievable. His ability to read angles is truly elite, never mind for a rookie, just for any center. So even Christian Coloco, too. You need the best players in the league.

A lot of them are centers now and big guys. And you actually need, it reminds me of in the mid-80s when all of a sudden there was this crazy center run and the league was just loaded and everybody was thinking, you guys like John Konczak, Uwe Blob, Joe Klein, these guys were going to the top 10 because teams were so afraid of everybody else's center. And it was, I remember there was a sports illustrated story one year. It was like during the McHale parish bird heyday. And it was just, and Houston had Samson Olajuwon. It was just like, oh, the centers are back. Here

we go. And then it flipped the other way by the early nineties. Then it was like, oh, the centers are back. Here we go. And then it flipped the other way by the early 90s. Then it was like, oh, you need to find a Jordan, forget about centers. But for the most part, we had that run when Dwight Howard was just winning the all-NBAs year after year after year. Then there was like a little Marc Gasol had the belt for a second and Joakim Noah had the belt for a second. But for the most part, centers weren't dominant. And now we're in a situation where Jokic and Embiid and Giannis, if you consider him a center, which he's definitely a big. He can be a small ball center.

They'll pull that out at some point. But then Sabonis, who is one of the two important guys on that Kings team and so amazing to watch with the guys they have. You and Mahoney were talking about it the other day, just about all the different handoff and all the different things he creates. He really is discount Jokic. It does feel like a boom.

It feels like a moment. It feels like something. And I wonder, will teams react to that this summer based on the success of the standings in the centers? Is this the playoffs where it's going to get tested, though? I mean, you think about Golden State, they're going to play small.

The Phoenix at some point is going to go with Kevin Durant at the five. They have Aiton. They're going to run with Aiton and Katie a lot, but we will see Katie at the five at some point. In the Eastern Conference, you're going to see a team try to go small against the sixers maybe even in non-imbed minutes you'll see them go with pj tucker at the five to try to exploit a bigger team as well philly they they could do that themselves like is this the year where we kind of see this test of styles where it's bigs and brute size versus that versatility

and spacing and you know smaller size um battling it out in the postseason to try to figure out like where we are actually going in the nba because it feels like right now it's all styles it's not just you know pace and space and all that it's it's been good yeah yeah i'm with you uh i think one of the things i've noticed this season is it's so hard to guard anybody that teams are kind of okay if their big man gets torched in the perimeter because it kind of happens to everybody. Defenses need help, Bill. They're waving the white flag right now. Oh my God. So we talked about this last week with Jokic. It looks so bad when he's trapped on an island, but it also looks bad when all of these other guys are trapped on an island. He

just looks like the goofiest. But on the flip side, you see when these teams go small, somebody likes a bonus. Like he just bulldozes his way, right? You know, they have that one play where he basically has the top of the foul line and he just basically, he's like a running back. He just gets to the line. Bam is the same way.

And I do think teams have gotten better at making teams pay for the small ball stuff. On top of like Draymond was like a generational freak at that to be a small ball center, right? He's one of the best defensive players of the last 20 years. And I think his success at that position made other teams feel like they could emulate it, but I don't know if he was emulatable. P.J. Tucker was able to do it somewhat on Houston and things like that. Grant Williams has been able to do it in some situations in Boston. But for the most part, Draymond is kind of a one-on-one.

So I think it's coming back. And we could be in a situation where we could have, if Philly gets the two seed, which is very probable considering the Celtics got bit by a rattlesnake, we could have Milwaukee, Boston, Denver, Sacramento could be our final four, and it would be all centers. And it's the first time that's happened in forever.

Again, in 2016, it was Bogut. It was the Moscow-Fry combo. It was the Adams-Perkins combo. And Jonas Valanciunas and Biambo. And those were all the centers we had in the final four of a playoff. So wait, before we go, you move Scoot down to three

and you move Brandon Miller up to two. Tate and I are going to talk about this in a second. Just give us your 20-second rationale for this. Are you just trying to get clicks? Are you Kevin O'Clicks on this? Or do you really believe it? Definitely. I mean, been on brennan miller since november when kyle man and i were talking about hey this was like a top five guy and then it becomes a three guy and now it's two on my board it's just it's a lot harder to find a six foot nine do it all wing

who can shoot at an elite level and play make and brings versatile defense and hustle and takes charges and gets chased down blocks it's a lot harder to find that guy than it is a six foot one smaller guard with questions about their shooting i love scoot he's got a lot of playmaking skill he's a hustler like he's only six one six one six two like we'll get an official measurement later this year but and he's long so he looks bigger right he's? He's strong. He's got good length. His body's unbelievable. I mean,

like we're talking about how many good bigs there are. There are also a lot of great guards and it's a lot harder to find those great wings than it is to find good guards and good centers right now. So,

you know, you're speaking my language on this because we've talked about this in the past. If I'm taking a point guard over a guaranteed wing, that point guard better be, I better know that guy's going first team all NBA at some point in his career, second team all NBA at worst. There's so many good point guards, right? I mean, they're

all over the place. Whereas like, you're right. Somebody like Miller is so much harder to find. To me, it's like, I can see the number two thing for him. If we think he's a rich man's Paul George, if it's like Paul George 2.0, something like that, all the stuff Paul George brought to the table, but with just more of a scorers mentality, George didn't score really for the first few years of his career, right? It kind of eased into it, kind of added to it a little like Jalen Brown. This guy's going to come in and score immediately, which I think is the difference. The one interesting thing about that, though, Bill, is I interviewed Miller back in December. It was before Alabama and Houston played. And Miller said to me, he's like, I think of myself as a point guard. I prefer to pass than I do scoring. And I think over the course of the

season, that's one of the things Kyle and I liked about him on the draft show earlier in the year, he can play make. You see him, he gets pressured in the pick and roll. We'd find the open teammate. He showed patience. He's shown that over the course of the season when he's pressured and the scoring and score first option is taken away, he can create for others. So with him, I wonder if that's actually the untapped skill that over the course of time, the NBA, he's going to score first. He's going to be a flourishing spot up shooter, attacking closeouts and all that. But I wonder if his handle continues developing. There's more to him as a passer than people are talking about right now, considering how much that's not part of his role at scoring. So you think his ceiling, first team all NBA for you?

Yeah, first, second. I wouldn't rule that out with him just he's just a do-it-all guy like tatum level kind of when tatum was coming out like oh my god this guy has first team yeah he's a do-it-all guy yeah scoot first team or second team ceiling for you depends on the jumper it does okay it all depends on that like he's right now he i't put him, considering how deep the league is, as a second-team ceiling guy. But if the jumper develops, then sure, definitely, he could be a first-team guy.

That's going to be the make-or-break skill. KOC, you're grinding for us during March Madness. NBA playoffs coming up. Listen to you on the Ringer NBA Draft Show, the mismatch. We have some other good stuff cooking that we're going to announce pretty soon.

But good to see you as always. Are you proud of me for not bringing up the Celtics and how traumatized I am by them? Because I'm proud of myself. Bill, you should be super proud. We only mentioned the Celtics in passing talking about their two big lineups. I'm very proud of you.

Can I ask you a question? How many times can my dad text me? No, how many times can he text me why Derek White isn't in a crunch time over Marcus Smart before? Is there like a shortcut for the text where it's one button and he just sends it to me

and it's just a complete sentence? I'm going to figure that out after the podcast. He's like a hot key to send that out. What happened to Marcus Smart? Is he 45 years old? What happened to him? Maybe he has it like on a note. He just copy and pastes it every time.

It'd be smart to do. It's an every night thing. I don't understand why he's aged 10 years in the last seven months. I don't understand it. I don't understand what happened to Grant Williams who no longer plays. And Rob Williams is, I don't know, is he in the Bahamas?

These were three of the key guys in the finals team last year. I don't want to is he in the Bahamas? These are three of the key guys of the finals team last year. I don't want to talk about this. KOC, great to see you. Thank you, Bill. Hey, sports fans, the wait is finally over. FanDuel, America's number one sports book, now live in my favorite state of all 50 states, Massachusetts. New customers in Massachusetts can get into the action with $200 in bonus bets guaranteed. When you place your first $5 bet, all you have to do is sign up at fanduel.com slash BS, money lines, point spreads, player props, more. Wednesdays, I like to do the same game parlays with the NBA on my Twitter feed. Bet now on an app that's safe,

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90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring,

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you can still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, my old friend Tate Frazier is here.

He hosts One Shining Podcast for The Ringer. Once upon a time, he was my producer. And I think I made you fill out my son's bracket one year. And guess what, Tate? It's going to happen again. He's asked for help for his bracket. And now that you're back at the ringer, you get to help my son do his bracket again down the road. So we'll talk about that offline, but it's great to have you back. Yeah, I'm fired up and I'm always ready to be the fall guy in March. You know, there's a lot of people that don't talk

to me all year. And then in March, they come around and they say, who's good this year? Who should I bet on? And then I'm ready to stick my neck out, say who is good, and then look like an idiot when it all falls apart because these are college kids. We know how it goes, but it's always fun. I had a run all the way through the 2000s when I still actually watched college basketball when people would ask me for advice. And it would always be the wrong advice. And that pool slowly dwindled. Then it became like my wife's friends,

like, Hey, can you, and now nobody asks me because I think the word is out in the street that I don't really watch college basketball. You're an NBA guy. That's what everybody knows. I'm an NBA guy. Right. I look at, as I've said many times, well, I look at the NBA as like the, like the real world, the way it used to feed into the real world road rules challenge. That's all I see it. I just see it as a feeder system to the bigger league. But it's interesting because the way the college hoops has shifted and we have more European prospects and foreign prospects, and we have people just going right to the G League and all these different things. From a talent standpoint, it actually feels like it's going back to where it used to be,

where I grew up, like the giant guy in Purdue. We used to have a lot of that stuff in the seventies and eighties. We used to have giant guys, little guys. And so are we back or we get back to being like a normal sport? You think? I feel like the NIL era was a,

was the way for people to put their foot back into the pool and say, I don't know, maybe college basketball is fun. I don't feel as egregious about watching and supporting this because now it looks like guys can get some compensation for what they're doing. So that was a nice start. Obviously, the biggest star in college basketball this year. There's a bit of a black mark there with Brandon Miller. Brandon Miller is, you know, I mean, an absolute superstar when it comes to the basketball court. But we have to, you know, for whatever reason, in college basketball, there seems to always be some sort of cloud where scrutiny is obviously deserved. And that's unfortunate. But you talked about the characters.

I mean, Zach Eadie is a guy that, you know, is getting Yao Ming comparisons. He's dominating right now. He's kind of playing his best basketball. He also started playing basketball late when he was around 15 years old. I always love, you know, guys like that as they develop, you know, Joel Embiid was one of those guys. So I look at Zach Eady. He's a fun story in college basketball. And then you got guys like, you know, with this Kansas team, you know, a Grady Dick, who might be under the radar right now. If you don't know the name, you probably will very soon, but he's going to be an NBA type player. He's going to be a guy I've seen, you know, mocked in, in lottery, maybe 15,

somewhere in that range. So Grady Dick is, there's still guys in college basketball that are NBA potential stars that are coming out. So that's the good news. I was worried about, you know, when Benyama and Scoot Henderson, but then I saw Scoot Henderson sitting out the G league. So I think that might be good as well for college basketball because you can't sit out college basketball unless you're Jalen Johnson. Give me narratives. You've been on One Shining Pod. You've been on the number one narrative,

which is this is Jim Nance last year. He went to Houston. Houston is favored. What a moment! Exclamation point as Houston winning in Jim Nance's last year. That's actually like the most fun narrative. The weirdest narrative is basically anything with Brandon Miller as some investigation unfolds as the tournament's happening.

What other narratives are in play for you? We got the Rick Tater is back in action, right? Yeah. Rick Patino is matched up against Connecticut in the first round in a 13, four game. There's a lot of questions as to how invested is Rick Pitino in this game because apparently the St. John's job is just there waiting for him. They've got to figure out the particulars and the details.

But this is his best Iona team that he's had. Iona last year lost to St. Peter's, who goes into the tournament and makes a run to the Elite Eight. So that conference, they know how to win games in March. Rick Pitino is a really good basketball coach i also think there's a little bit of a you know this is dan hurley at uconn this is the you know the son of bob hurley senior and rick patino is more in the class with bob hurley senior than he is with dan hurley so i i have a weird anticipation anxiety almost that there's going to be a master versus the student moment in this game, right, where Rick Pitino is able to steal one.

But UConn... Wait, hold on. On Pitino, so you think he's got St. John's in his back pocket and he's on Redfin looking at New York apartments, but then he's going into the locker room with the Iona kids being like, I love it here. You guys are the best. I'm not going anywhere because

we've seen him do the Pinocchio routine for 35 solid years at this point. Well, this is the classic Rick Pitino rope-a-dope. This is what he does. We know that, I mean, out on the recruiting trails, you know, I've talked to some other coaches and they're like, yeah, we go and see players that are more in the, you know, power

six, power five programs, but, you know, Iona's there scouting them, so we know that Rick's scouting for the next team, you know, so he knows what he's doing. I think he would have literally done anything to get the Georgetown job because of his, you know, respect for that program. I think that he thinks he could go there and turn them immediately back to who they were before.

And that's just who Rick Pitino is. But it doesn't sound like Georgetown is going to get in that pool, but we'll see what happens with that. But, yeah, when they got St. John's right there, he can play in the Big East. This is really his first Big East game if he does end up going to St in that pool, but we'll see what happens with that. But yeah, when they got St. John's right there, he can play in the Big East. This is really his first Big East game if he does end up going to St. John's. So it's him versus UConn. So that's a fun first round matchup. I think I still got the Huskies though. I think they win that game.

He'll spin it if he goes to St. John's as this is the logical conclusion for me. Starting in Providence and going to the Knicks East Coast, St. John's was a superpower. I always wondered what if, like he'll come up with some full of shit story. I was so desperate for Holy Cross basketball to be good again that I even would have ridden

the Patino Express for two years with him as our coach. Because you knew he was going to go somewhere to do the reestablishment, kind of the cleansing, take some team to madness and then leave and go to a real program. I was happy for Holy Cross to be used as the conduit for that, but it turned out to be Iona. I like the idea of him on St. John's though. Like my whole thing is would that make sports more fun? It probably would. And you have all these St. John's, all these New York people, like when, remember when Molly went there and I was like, yeah, Molly's going to, going to redo St. John's

basketball. It's going to be back to the glory. Nope, that didn't happen. It is more fun when St. John's is in the mix, it feels like. Yeah. And Steve Lavin tried that too, right? Lavin went there and things went well for a couple of years. But Mike Anderson even, he started out kind of hot at St. John's. But in my mind, as I close my eyes, I see Rick Pitino in a full white suit, stalking the MSG sidelines, looking like Lucifer himself. And that is good for basketball. You know, that's what we all want to see, especially if St. John's is competing, you know, at the highest level. And they could in the Big East.

Like, he's going to recruit New York. He was born in Manhattan. He was raised in Long Island. He is a man of New York City. So Rick Pitino. He'll spin it. I think that Georgetown, that Georgetown job is unbelievable. Yes. And they basically just threw away the last six years with Patrick Ewing.

But you would think like one of these schools could be positioned as East Coast Duke, right? And it's just been sitting there. It's something I certainly was hoping Holy Cross could potentially pull off and it's just never going to happen. But for the most part, like so many states from Washington all the way to Maine, so many colleges and like who's kind of the alpha dog smart school that has great basketball. It's just been the territory has been sitting there forever. Gonzaga has somehow claimed the Pacific Northwest. You know, people have claimed turf in the East Coast. Who is it yeah i think the georgetown job just because of the facilities and the money that that is already there that can be pumped into it and the need for them to be good like the university wants the basketball program to be

respected i think they're gonna go after you know a guy like a micah shrewsbury at a penn state um you know that that's a name that i've heard thrown out there. I've even heard a name, Shaka Smart, thrown out there. Shaka had an amazing year at Marquette. I don't see Shaka making that move. Mike Bray is another name that I think would be fascinating just because Bray just left Notre Dame after 23 years. Bray is a guy that grew up recruiting in the DMV, coached in the DMV with Morgan Wooten at DeMatha High School,

so he knows that area. So, I mean, Georgetown can go a lot of different ways with this move. I like Ron Hunter as well at Tulane. Remember Ron Hunter from Georgia Southern with RJ Hunter, that tournament run, that was a lot of fun. Oh yeah, I remember that. Right. Georgetown could go a lot of different ways and there's a lot of interest in the job. So if you're Georgetown fan or student, you're excited about that because you've been the basement dweller of the big east for the past you know however many years other than that one big east tournament run that felt like big john it was angels in the outfield right

when they won that big tournament that was insane um so i i think it's a highly desired job and i still think they should have considered rick patino more because if they if they did bring rick patino i think they'd win a national they could win a national championship. And people forget. I mean, Patrick Ewing went to three national championship games. He only won one, but he went to three. And, you know, 82 was a Jordan shot away and a late turnover away. And 85 is a Villanova team that knew them so well and Raleigh Massimino coaching the game of his life. So, I mean, Patrick Ewing and Big John could have won three titles in four years.

Well, they also had the Mutombo morning air, even though it didn't produce what everybody thought. It was still incredibly relevant during a time when everybody loved college hoops. The thing with me, I guess we met a short-changed Villanova as the smart school on the East Coast with good basketball,

but I didn't want to give that to the people of extended Philadelphia. I just didn't. Screw them. They can go fuck off. They're still rubbing the Super Bowl, the Nick Foles Super Bowl on my face. I'm not giving it to them. Yeah. Villanova is like a blue blood, but maybe lowercase letters. That's where they kind of are. Right. Georgetown to me is highercase letters in a lot of ways, just because of what the 80s meant. They were the school in the eighties. They, it was them and it was for the East coast. And then, you know, you had the other ones that are still kicking around, but it's hard for me to believe Georgetown's not

just always great at basketball. Right. They should be, it should be a foregone conclusion that Georgetown competes. And guess what? They have the best brand in basketball. They have Nike, which is Jordan, you know, Jordan is a vanity brand of Nike. So they have the perfect pipeline to recruit there. They have the Jordan brand classic. They should have guys every single year. And even when I was coming up, you know, Georgetown with Roy Hibbert and Jeff Green, all those teams were good. I mean, even Otto Porter, right. They still had guys in the modern-ish era that were there competing at a high level. So they can do it. I like how you pulled it when I was coming up. By the way, happy birthday. Tate turned 30 today.

He's in his 30s. Pretty soon, just find somebody, get married, have a couple of kids, get a potbelly. It'll be great. I can't wait to welcome you to your late 30s. The potbelly's starting. It's all happening. So here we go.

I'm excited for you. All right, we're going to count down. You're going to give us five bets in reverse order from five to one that we can look at for March Madness. All of these are bets that we found on FanDuel. And you can still place them. We're taping this on a Tuesday afternoon. So if the odds have shifted a little bit since you hear this, don't blame us.

Anyway, what do you have for number five? Yeah, number five is an easy one. And it's a way to start in and ease into the conversation because it's a team, to me, that's probably the most surefire team in the tournament. And that, of course, is the reigning national champions, the Kansas Jayhawks. This is my first prop pick that you can throw in here. Kansas to make the final four, plus 330. And I think Kansas coming out of the West, they were the third one seed. They probably should have been the second one seed playing in Kansas City,

but Houston got that above them. Kansas leads the country in quad wins. I don't even know if you know what quad wins are, Bill, but that's what they talk about in college basketball now. It's the worst.

It's the worst conversation to ever happen in the entire sport. It sounds awful. I don't even want to know what it means. You don't want to know what it means,

and I don't want to explain it to you. Don't tell me. It'll be a little bit of a mystery for the rest of my life. Right. Right. Jim Nance sounds disgusted when they bring it up. He's about to throw up when he has to say quad.

So I feel the same way. But yeah, Kansas, the only concern I have with Kansas is Bill Self had a heart procedure. It was first reported as a heart attack, but I don't believe it actually ended up being a heart attack. But he had stints put in. That was the report I saw out of the Kansas City Star, I believe. And the conversation about this Kansas team was, can they repeat? That's how good they are. That's how dominant they've been.

They got Jalen Wilson, you know, going to be first team All-American. They got Grady Dick, one of the best freshmen in the country, a guy that can go off, get you 25, 30 points in a game at any time they have this guy kj adams who is six foot seven but he plays the five and he can guard big men because he he's got a lot of verticality he can jump up and make plays but he also can switch anything right so kansas is just a fascinating team i think they match up with anybody um and i think they have they win their matchup pretty much against anybody. I worry about their depth. I worry about a team with a big, like a Zach Eady, like we mentioned before, or Arizona with their front court, giving them some trouble just because of their size. But I love KJ Adams. I think he's a fascinating player and a fascinating prospect when you look

at the NBA. So Kansas at plus 330 to make the final four. I like that bet. So KFC has Grady Dick number nine right now in his guide wow and then the six seven guy you just mentioned sounds like he's my kind of guy I love those multi-position defense defender a little undersized and that's why they drop 12 spots too low yeah and yet somehow they're out there in crunch time in round two and you're like oh of course. Okay. What do you have for bet number four?

By the way, so wait, can we talk about who's the foiler? Like UCLA and Kansas are co-favorites in that region right now, plus 330. But who's the foiler in your mind? If that Kansas bet doesn't happen, who foils it? Yeah. So UCLA going into the Pac-12 tournament, I would have told you if you asked me who was going to win the national championship, I would have said UCLA. And I would have said that with a good amount of confidence, but they lost Jalen Clark, who's the defensive player of the year. He was one of the best

defenders in college basketball, if not the best defender in college basketball, him and Hami Hawkeyes on the wing. I just thought that that was a really dynamic duo. The good news for UCLA is that Amari Bailey, who played at Sierra Canyon, has stepped up, had 26 points in his first game with Jalen Clark out. It's about time someone from Sierra Canyon stepped up. Right, there you go. Sorry you had to get that one in there.

They lost again. Six and eight in their last 14 games in high school. So long, Sierra Canyon. Yeah, that's insane. And Amari Bailey was the best player on Sierra Canyon last year but he's been trying to find his footing with this you know Mick Cronin's a tough cookie to crack right to get in that rotation he if he plays well Amari Bailey in UCLA with Tiger Campbell Hame Hakez a dim boner their big man a freshman the freshman of the year in the Pac-12 he's injured as well. So the injuries is what is keeping me from picking UCLA, but they're so well coached, they can make a run. And then also I like Gonzaga.

I know a lot of people every single year are tired of picking Gonzaga, but Gonzaga at plus 400. Drew Timmy is still there. If they go out and defend like they do. That's the best. I love that Drew Timmy is still there. He's still there. He's still there. So funny.

He's still there. Every year there's the guy who's been in college for eight years. You're like, wait, you're still there? And it's definitely Drew Timmy this year. If there's someone you want to buy into, it's Drew Timmy, plus 400 there with Gonzaga. So I think the two teams to watch out for

if you don't believe in Kansas or maybe UCLA and Gonzaga. That's kind of a... I hate using this word, but that's kind of a sexy bracket. UCLA, Kansas, Gonzaga. That's kind of a hate using this word, but that's kind of a sexy bracket. UCLA, Kansas, Gonzaga,

right? St. Mary's action. You had double whack. You kind of, yeah, I don't know. Some stuff going on.

All right. What's bet number four. All right. So this is a prop bet. This is just a fun one because he's a fun player. And I thought you would enjoy watching him when he is playing his best. You know, he is a great point forward

in college basketball. Um, his name is Coleman Hawkins. He plays for Illinois. He's actually the assist leader on the team, but he's six foot nine. Um, he can, you know, get the ball out, start the break. They play Arkansas, uh, on Thursday at three 10 Eastern. Um, if he makes three or more threes, you can get a prop at a plus 430. I've seen Coleman Hawkins make five threes in the first half this season. I think he is a guy that Arkansas is going to play off of, and they're going to dare him to shoot the basketball. I think

Coleman Hawkins will take the threes, and I think they will go in. I'm not saying Illinois is going to win this game because I like Arkansas and I like the must-bust, but I think a little fun prop bet here to watch this game and enjoy it. Illinois, Coleman Hawkins, plus 430 to make three or more threes. I love the bet. I love that you went outside the box. And I love the idea of betting against Arkansas because they're assaulting media

members. And I just can't stand for that, Tate. Yeah. Media assault, it's a no-no on this podcast. Everyone got so upset about that. It seemed like he just like grabbed the phone and then it kind of dropped. Did anything else happen beyond that? Or, but then they were like, Oh, he attacked him. He threw his phone. I think it was a lot of grandstanding on, on, you know, the side of, on the media side of it, but also I saw Arkansas at the Maui Invitational and they acted like the biggest babies in basketball. I mean, Oh, so they might've done it. Okay. Yeah. We need a second angle. Where's the second camera angle? Well, they got no benefit of the doubt. Uh, from my vantage point, I also, I think the

phone was broken. That was the big ordeal. His phone was broken. So look, if you break a phone, I mean, that's a big deal. So we don't like that. So we shouldn't do a 10 episode ringer podcast on this or no narrative series. i was about to hire 13 producers for it okay well yeah yeah people need it people need the content uh yeah but that's bet number three what do you got bet number three is also an off the radar bet but i really like the raging cajuns of louisiana um so louisiana is matched up with tennessee in the first round and you can take louisiana straight up money line at plus 490. Whoa!

Yeah, and I'll tell you why, because Rick Barnes is the coach of Tennessee. Rick Barnes has struggled in March. Oh, dude, come on. You're picturing acquiring any anti-Rick Barnes bet. Right, and Rick Barnes, he lost to Kai Ziegler. I personally think Kai Ziegler was the one that initiated and got things going for this team.

Tennessee is not the team that they were in January at this point in the season. Louisiana has two guys that are, you know, I think could be NBA tweeners, guys that are in the G League. Bob Marlin, their head coach, is a really good head coach. Terrence Lewis is the first guy to watch out for on the wing. I saw him at the Asheville Championship this year. He was the MVP of the tournament. They won that tournament.

I like teams that win tournaments, Bill. So Louisiana won that tournament. So you like wins and losses. That's one of your things. I like wins and losses, and I like defense. So Louisiana has my attention. Also, four seeds, they tend to struggle in the tournament the last 10 years. So four seeds are where there's some susceptible

teams there. I think Tennessee is not playing their best basketball. I think Louisiana is playing their best basketball. And another guy to watch out for in this game is Jordan Brown. He transferred from Arizona. He's a former four-star, some say five-star kid. He's got a lot of talent. He's a big man. I like the bigs. So I like

Louisiana, plus 490 in this first-round matchup. I love the betting against Rick Barnes part. As you were talking, I was looking at the 07 Longhorns. Kevin Durant and DJ Augustine. Right. Kevin Durant, who put together one of the greatest individual college seasons

in the past 30 years. He's basically like 30 and 10 every game, playing center. And he had a point guard. They lost their conference tournament in OT to Oklahoma. Yep. I'm sorry, to Kansas. And then they go into the tournament. They beat New Mexico

State as a four seed. And then they lose to USC by 20. The Swaggy P USC team. It was Taj Gibson. It was Nick Young. Gabe Pruitt. They got

murdered. They Kevin Duran and DJ Augustine. That's it. Rick Barnes. I'm betting against you every every year. That sounds great, Tate. And also that's a four seed right there. So like I said, four seeds are susceptible because they're usually a team that's sliding down as opposed to jumping up. I do think Duke should have been a four seed. I thought they were

underseeded as a five seed. Any team that wins the ACC tournament should not be a five seed. So a lot of people know that I have my bias against Duke. I thought they were underseeded as a five seed. Any team that wins the ACC tournament should not be a five seed. So a lot of people know that I have my bias against Duke. Obviously, they're a rival of mine. But I got to say that for the public. Duke got screwed with their seeding. And they're playing Oral Roberts in the first round, Bill. The hottest team in the country.

They've won 17 straight. So just wanted to get that out there. Here's the thing about you and Duke. Now that Coach K is gone. Right. It's different. You still hate him, but it's different. It's different.

It's not the same. You don't have that single person you can direct your animosity toward anymore. It's just kind of an amorphous animosity now. It's like if you go to hell and the devil's not there, you know? You're kind of like, where is he? I killed 10 people to get here. I didn't get to meet him. Yeah.

It's just kind of uncomfortable, but it's not the same hate. Alright, your second best bet. What is it? Alright, so this is a fun one as well. This is a team. I love history in the tournament, and I love when there's matchups that beckon back to a pastime in college basketball. So my number two bet is the Kent State

Golden Flashes at plus 150. They are matched up against Indiana in the first round in Albany. And if you remember back in 2002, Antonio Gates with Kent State in the Elite Eight had 22 points, 8 assists. Kent State could have won that game.

Some would say they should have won that game, but Indiana made 15 of 19 threes, which is insane. I mean, when have we ever seen that sort of percentage again? Shout out to Tom Coverdell and Jared Jeffries. Oh, yeah. I remember that team.

Right, making that happen. And also, Kent State beat Indiana in 2001. So Kent State has some history with Indiana. They're playing in Albany. The head coach of Kent State, he graduated from Albany, so he's kind of playing in familiar territory. Also, he was a coach at Indiana when Kelvin Sampson was there, and he was the one that got fired for the text messages and the phone calls.

So he has some personal history with Indiana himself. Kent State hasn't won a tournament game since 2002 when they lost in the Elite Eight against Indiana. Oh, this is great. I love this. And this is also a 413, like I was saying. The 413, they have my attention. So plus 150, I'm going to take Kent State.

And also the best name in the tournament is Kent State's best player. His name is Sincere Carey. And he takes threes. He makes shots. He's a fun player. Very explosive guard. So I like Kent state plus 150 i wonder what if you just bet all the 13s in a 413 money line over the last 20 years you went at least one one out of the four every year and you probably hit two out of the four at least in a couple years

but there's there's no way you got smoke doing that. You probably, that's a net positive over the years because that's always dating back to the 80s. That was always like the danger matchup for 13. Yeah. And I feel like the 512 got great PR, right? I think the 512 is what people want. They expect that to be the upset. And I think this year there's a lot of trap 512 games.

Like I think a lot of people in America are going to look at Oral Roberts and Duke and say, oh yeah, Oral Roberts all day, every day. And I think Duke's going to beat them bad. I really do. So there's some trap 5-12 games that I would like to advise people against. And if Oral Roberts proves me wrong, this is the greatest reverse jinx in history. Well, what happened to those Duke kids that were like one and two in the ESPN Top 100

heading into the season? What happened to him? Well, Derek Lively. No, Derek Lively is good. He figured it out. His first game against North Carolina in Cameron Indoor, he had about nine blocks. So I was going to say, I watched one of those games

and he was having a block party and I was like, oh, is this guy, what does this mean? But he was the clear number one heading into the season, but it seems like Brandon Miller has ascended way over him. Way over him. I mean, I think Lively is more of a late lottery potential guy that you could take and try to develop, right? I mean, I don't think he's someone that you're writing home about

and saying he's going to be an amazing player. Dariq Whitehead still has my attention. I think he's fascinating, but he also has just shown an ability to disappear at times. Proctor, to me, is their most fascinating prospect. I mean, Filipowski obviously is in that conversation too, but Proctor is the one. He and Jeremy Roach, they're two guards, that backcourt.

They've kind of changed the dynamic of their whole season. And you need guard play and you need defense to win in March, and Duke has that. So that's why they're scary. Were you okay with KOC putting Brandon Miller number two in his draft guide? Absolutely. I mean, I think Brandon Miller, I mean, he is kind of old school in the way that he plays, right?

Like sometimes his best offense is taking a three and missing because he follows his shot and gets the rebound and gets a bucket. You know, like he just does some things like that where it's like, okay, you have my attention. And even when he's not making shots, he'll pick up full court. He'll he'll play defense like he tries to get steals. He tries to get deflections. He's very active and he's got a great handle like Jabari Smith last year. We both like Jabari Smith. But I worried about his handle. I worried about his ability to bring the ball up the floor. And when he gets pressure, how does he handle that? Brandon Miller is not afraid of any of those things. So I think him being a number two and with scoots sitting out of the G league, I don't know. That's kind of a red flag for me.

So, and Brandon Miller is going to compete. Jabari. I don't know if you, I don't know if your stockbroker was telling you about Jamar Jabari's last couple of games, but there's been some real signs of life. Yeah.

He's it's starting to come together. He looked good against the Celtics last night, but he had 30 points a couple of games ago, but there's, some real signs of life. Yeah, he's... It's starting to come together. He looked good against the Celtics last night, but he had 30 points a couple games ago, but there's some signs. My stockbroker was pleased. I'm excited. You and I, when we talked about him, it's just he's so fun to watch

because he can score at such a high level, and I think he gets the opportunities and gets the shots. He can deliver, but, you know. Well, he's on a ridiculous team. You can't pick a worse team to be on than that Rockets team. It's clear they're going to get rid of everybody

after the season. GM, coach, everybody. The team that, it's just basically whoever has the ball over half court gets to decide what happens. And just a bunch of guys who it's spread out.

Everybody goes one-on-one. I would love to see him play with a point guard at some point in his career. It's not going to happen this year, but at some point it'd be nice if somebody could think about him and have him in his thoughts as they ran a play. But from what I've seen, I'm not scared off at all. I think he's been pretty good. And defensively, he's there. So anyway, hold on to your stock. All right, your number one bet, what is it? Yeah, my number one bet is I made it about the national title because I felt like it's the number one pick. So, so why not? So I have, I have a split national title, uh, you know, options for you. One of them is my head. One

of them is my heart, uh, with my head, I believe the Arizona Wildcats are going to win the national championship. And I say this because I think Arizona is a team that knows how to win tournaments. They went to the Maui Invitational. They did not even play their best basketball. They have a proclivity bill to get up in games and then just completely start to coast and just start taking bad shots. And they just, you know, they almost toy with the other team.

That's my only fear with Arizona. Sometimes they play that way. And the guy that does that, his name is Kirk Creasa. So there is a red flag in the sense that I think Kirk Creasa. One of those guys? I hate those guys when I'm writing somebody. Yeah, I think you can shoot them out of a game. But I also think they have the 17-year-old phenom, Boswell,

their backup point guard. And I think Boswell can come in, steady the ship, be the actual point guard of this group. And Tubelis, their best player, he is a guy that is almost Jokic-like where he can start to break himself. So a lot of the times, you know, to Bellas and Balo, their five man, they play a little high-low game together. He can start to break himself.

They can almost take Kirk Creasa out of the game. And if that's how Arizona plays, and I think that's how they will play, that's how they've shown that they're going to play in tournament play. And then they have Courtney Ramey, who was at Texas a few years ago. He can get hot, win you some games. Henderson, as well as another shooting guard, they can get hot, win you some games. Pelley Larson, their small forward, is a guy that KOC

and all of our draft experts at the Ringer will have moving up their boards, I think, as the tournament plays out. And you can get them at plus 1,500. I think Arizona at plus 1,500. As a two-seed, the last time they went to the national championship and won it in 97, they were in the south region. They're in the south region this year. They beat three one seeds on their path to a national championship.

I think that they would potentially have to beat three one seeds to go win the national championship. I think they would have to beat Alabama in the Elite Eight. I think they'd have to beat Purdue in the Final Four. And I think they'd have to beat Purdue in the Final Four. And I think they'd have to beat Kansas in the National Championship game. So I think it's the same path that Lute had back in 1997. So I like them at plus 1,500. And then my heart.

By the way, you could go plus 380 for them just for the region. Alabama is plus 150 in that region. But just quickly on the Arizona thing I'm with you it does seem like like Brandon Miller I don't know on a scale of 1 to 10 is like a 9 for what we're usually getting out of a pro prospect

who can score coming into the tournament like how many times has somebody this talented as a scorer been in the tournament as a freshman usually the freshmen are always like works in progress in some way. I mean, you're talking at that point, like Carmelo Anthony. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Yeah. Right. Well, Durant's out in two rounds, but Carmelo won the whole thing. And whether he's going to be as good as those guys,

I have no idea. But the body of resume and the way the scouts and people at KOC are talking about him just projecting, it does seem like the same thing. I can't wait to watch him anyway. So what does your heart say? Yeah, I, uh, I worry about Alabama. I think Alabama is kind of like I said on my show and once ran podcast, they're the elephant in the room, you know, like they are literally just in the corner. They're the best team in the country by far. They're playing their best basketball. And I think everyone is think everyone is expecting Noah Clowney and Brandon Miller and Bradley to kind of have an off night like what

Auburn did against Miami, but I don't know. They scare me. They did lose a game that was weird to Oklahoma this year. I have to point that out because that game sticks in the back of my mind. It is possible, but yeah, they're a scary team. My heart says that which is a tough path, but I think the UConn Huskies are another fascinating team at plus 2,500.

UConn went to the Field Night Invitational. They won that tournament. Like I said, I like teams that win tournaments. I like the way that their roster is constructed. I like Sunogo. I like Klingon off the bench. John, I've been Klingon a freshman. They got two seven-footers.

I think you're going to need three bigs legit to go win a national championship this year. Especially if you get matched up with a team like Purdue with Zach Eady, you got to have bodies to throw at him. So I like the way that UConn is constructed. I think they got a really tough draw with Iona. Then they would play St. Mary's if things shake out the right way in the second round. Randy Bennett, one of the best coaches in the country. That's a tough matchup.

But if Dan Hurley can survive those first two games and get to the Sweet 16, I think UConn is a bad matchup for anybody. And when they play good teams, UConn, they play the best of anyone in the country. When they play high-quality basketball, when they play high, top-quality basketball teams, they play top-quality basketball. That's what they're known for. And also, if you want to bet on them, they remind me of the 0-4 team. They also have this guy, Jordan Hawkins, who reminds me of Rip Hamilton.

He runs around screens to get open. He's a fun player to watch. He's going to be a first-round pick. And also, final point with my heart, Luke Murray, who I'm a big fan of Luke Murray, son of Bill Murray, on staff. So Bill Murray is a Husky. You can get behind Bill Murray and Luke Murray and the Huskies at plus 2,500. So there you go. That's my heart pick. I'm looking to see. So

Jordan Hawkins, KOC has him 22nd right now. Calls him a flawless shooter. Bangs threes all over the court. That sounds great. Yeah, he's fun. I'm thinking narratives for that one. Stan Hurley, what's the narrative as it keeps going? They bring up Bob, the Hurley family, saying it like they get to do that whole thing, right? Right. Of course. A little in the shadow of since 2004 in the shadow of the women's program in a lot of ways, like kind of the little brother, like the stepbrother, they do that. Vestiges of the big east way back when when it matters what is there another narrative school that you could see other than the jim nance houston thing is there another one where they're like oh

well i mean i i narrative time that people gush over i think marquette with shock of smart is a very narrative oh working his way back back. He was the hot guy. Didn't work out. Hiccup. Rebuilt it. Right. And Marquette is a team that, you know, with Al McGuire, right, they win the 77 championship. They were setting records this year for the first time since that era, you know, since 1979. They win the Big East regular season. They win the Big East tournament. Again, I like teams that win tournaments. So Shaka Smart would be one of those guys that kind of

gets the love, I think, the media bump. And he's got cachet with the audience, right? We know Shaka Smart. So when Shaka Smart comes back into the conversation, the fan at home goes, Oh man, I love VCU. I remember that run. 17-1 for them. Plus the big Dahmer

docu-series this year. That was near Marquette. I don't know. I'm just trying to come up with other stuff. Aaron Rodgers. Wisconsin needs it after they trade Aaron Rodgers. I feel like there's a chance Giannis is showing up and pulling for Marquette at the game. And they get

some sort of push there. There's a chance that all that works out as well. So I think the Bucs will be behind Marquette. That sounds great. All right. This was awesome. So Tate, what's your, what's your podcast schedule this week? Next week. What are you thinking? Yeah. So we it's one shining podcast. You can find it on Spotify or wherever you get podcasts. We have Ty Jerome, 2019 national champion from Virginia going to come into studio. So we're going to talk to him, try to do like a little tournament primer. What does he see? Does he think that Virginia can get past Furman?

The Paladins look like a very scary team. That's a hot 413 pick that I think, I think Virginia, if I were to tell the novice fan at home, it's like, don't bet on Virginia to lose in the first round, bet on them to lose in the second round. So I think they'll beat Furman. And then I think they'll probably struggle with maybe a San Diego State or a Charleston,

whoever wins that game. And then also, every single night, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday in the first round, we're doing a reaction show, myself and Kyle Mann. He's going to be out

in Los Angeles. So myself, producer Kyle, Kyle Mann are going to be watching games downtown LA and then going to the studio and recording after. So it's going to be a fun week. Have you ever met Kyle Mann? Not in person, no.

Just over the internet. Do you know he's 7'3"? I did not. No, he really is. He played in college. He's huge. Yeah, good for him. I mean, look, I love the bigs, Bill. You know this. I tried to convince House once that Warren Sharp didn't have legs because every time we use Warren

Sharp in a video, you can only see him from the torso up. So yeah, Warren sharp doesn't have legs. House wasn't biting. It's hard when you only see people on zoom, you can kind of predict any sort of reality for anyone. They don't know where people are usually shocked when they see me. They're like,

they think I'm like five foot six. So I, you know, you're sneaky tall guy. People are shocked when they see nephew Kyle without a cigarette. They're like, what happened? I know what's going on.

He's got the patch on his neck. I know. I know nobody's more excited for the return of you in March madness at the ringer than, than Kyle. So he's tearing up right now as we're talking. All right, take good to have you back.

Good to see you. Happy birthday, my friend. Yeah, perfect. Thanks Bill. Appreciate it. Life and death were two very realistic coexisting possibilities in my life.

I didn't even think I'd make it to like my 16th birthday, to be honest. I grew up being scared of who I was. Any one of us at any time can be affected by mental health and addictions. Just taking that first step makes a big difference. It's the hardest step. But CAMH was there from the beginning. Everyone deserves better mental health care. To hear more stories of recovery, visit CAMH.ca.

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Ugh. This message is brought to you by Metrolinks. Alright, my friend Brian Gerwitz is here. He used to work for the WWE once upon a time. Wrote a book. What's the name of the book? There's Just One Problem, True Tales from the Former One-Time Seventh Most Powerful Person in WWE. It came out a few months ago and we were looking for the perfect time to do a pod because you did the circuit. You were around, you were bouncing around. I was like, nah, I want a fresh,

fresh Brian. This is a perfect topic for us to dive into. And then we can talk about the book after. Yeah. Gambling legally on WWE stuff, which was a story that broke last week. And most people's reaction was that's impossible. There's no way they can do this. But then some of the reporting, including some of the reporting Dave Meltzer did on it, it seems like they're really kicking the tires on this and trying to figure out how they can do it, how they can figure out sports entertainment, both ahead of time and in the moment so that you could figure out the structure of a storyline, but then not what's going to happen in the actual match until the tail end. You were behind the scenes forever with them. Does this seem realistic to you?

It wouldn't seem realistic when I was there, but I have a lot of faith in Nick Khan. Obviously, we both know really well. And I think the structure is just different now. You said Dave Meltzer reporting on it. The fact that Dave Meltzer exists is a reason why it might not work. You know, that's like, you know, he's antithetical to the whole concept of can the wrestlers or whoever the quote unquote sources are just shut their mouths for a little bit. Like everything that we did back then, it wasn't, it was possible to do secret stuff back when I was there. We kept John Cena returning. When he returned to the Royal Rumble, I think it was 2008, that was a secret. We kept Eric Bischoff when we named him GM in 2002. That was a secret.

When Rock returned to host WrestleMania, you really, really need to put in the work to keep it a secret. Uh, or you just really, truly need to crack down on people, you know, and most people aren't like this in terms of like just blabbing, but like every so often you go online and you see, here are the plans for this and here are the plans for that. And sometimes I know it's, it's hot garbage. And sometimes, you know, unfortunately, there's legitimate truth behind it. So it really, really needs to... They could experiment, but it really needs to be done with a level of intensity that they've never really done before, in my opinion.

So two things that strike me as this seems impossible. One is just even if only the two people in the actual match and a couple other people knew what the actual outcome was going to be, to plan a whole match but then only have the two people know what's going to happen in the last minute of the match, that just seems hard. And then especially with whatever their extended circle are is. And then the other thing with the, you're planning a storyline for some,

with two people, whether it's a feud or whatever, you know, that's a multi-month arc. If you're doing it correctly, you're putting real thought into how you set it up, how you set up the animosity, whatever the angle is,

how are you going to execute it over weeks and weeks and weeks and maybe it crests at summer slam or wrestlemania or whatever and to say you have no idea how that's going to play out three months earlier is seems like the opposite of how wrestling works so when you when you hear it laid out like that does it just seem like completely ludicrous uh yeah like that it does seem completely ludicrous because um so, so, you know, the beauty of being able to craft a storyline is your ability to change it at a moment's notice if need be, or if the audience isn't reacting a certain way, or if, uh, you know, if, if something seems like blatantly obvious and you have the ability to change it on the fly, um, and also keep it tight

knit. And also you're not just booking or writing for that day of, you're writing for, you know, well past that. But that being said, you know, if they could experiment, you know, and maybe it starts with props, you know, like how many kickouts are there going to be? How long the match is going to be? Certain things that like you really, you know, it's not going to be listed on long the match is going to be certain things that like you, you really, you know, it's not going to be listed on a sheet somewhere in the producer's meeting backstage where someone can get ahold of it and then call whoever they're going to call and say so, um, you know, and, and, and put caps on it, put limits on it. There's like experimental things that you could just try it out that hopefully can work and not, you know, change the whole

structure where now you're locked into a finish that you really want to change, but you can't because of the online gambling aspect of it. That's where you really get potentially screwed or in trouble. Yeah, it seems like that you could have length of the match is an easy one. Number of kickouts is an easy one. And that one you can control in the last minute. You could go tell somebody,

hey, this match can be five minutes. We're going to go under. Or it could just be the natural outcome of it. You could also do like you laid out. There could just be one match in a card where nobody knows what's going to happen in the match. Maybe that's the one you could bet on FanDuel where it's like, all right, here we go.

It's Sami Zayn against, I don't know, Kevin Owens. And only two people who know how this match is going to end are those two. And you could bet on this and everybody else is shut out. And they just try it and see if it works. I also think there's a misconception that if they do this, it could be, oh, I'm going to bet $1,000 on this with Inside Info. The actual number that you're allowed to bet, I would assume, would be really small.

It might be like a $25 maximum, something like that. It should be capped. I mean, this has been going around for a while. I mean, it was over in, I think, Europe and everything, even when I was there. And I left in 2015. And always like, no one on this writing team would dare to consider it for not only just the moral reasons, but also practical reasons. Like, are you really going to risk your job to make a few bucks on a $25 bet? I mean, that just seems crazy.

But yeah, I think, you know, it's one thing and people are, you know, thinking, oh, okay, so the entire card is going to be available to bet. Like that's, that shouldn't be the way. And I don't think it is going to be the way that they kick it off. If they do it, yeah, it should be a single, you know, whatever know, whatever the version

of the Mountain Dew pitch black, you know, special sponsor in green matches. They should pick it for that. They should keep it really tight lid. They should have a lot of props. It shouldn't just be who wins or who loses and see how that works and then slowly expand from there

versus, okay, WrestleMania, nights one and two, you know, it shouldn't be like the NCAA tournament where you could bet everything and anything right off the bat, because that could potentially, I think, you know, be disastrous. How many times did Vince change the big plan before a match when you were there, like at the last possible second was like, I've thought about this and we're actually gonna do this instead. How many times did Vince not change the plan? That's the question.

I mean, the plan's changed constantly. Like you're gonna have everything laid out. Some things stayed as is. Sometimes you're in a production meeting, you know, before the night unfolds, you're minding your own business. For me, I'm like reading the show, presenting it to the people.

The people being, you know, the backstage producers, the agents, most people know how that kind of, you know, works now. And then all it takes is for one person, because that's the thing with Vince, you know, he will accept ideas from anyone and everyone. And there, there are certain people like, you know, it'd be like, you know, most of these, their ideas are terrible when they raise their hand, but one out of 30 times, it's really, really good. So why would I ever, you know, put a stop to that? And all it takes is for one person to go, well, what if we did it this way? And if it strikes us fancy, then the domino effect happens and then everything changes.

So yeah, it's, you know, when I first heard about this and it's got to be locked in, again, this is conjecture and stuff I'm reading on the internet. So who knows if it's even true. But, you know, the idea of like something being locked in and locked in for months is so antithetical to the world of wrestling

and to WWE because everything changed. You know, at the end of the day, the best idea wins out. And we used to have a saying, you know, at the end of the day, the best idea wins out. And we used to have a saying, you know, nothing, nothing officially happens until they step through the curtain. Um, and even then it could change. Yeah. You know, earpieces, uh, they could, someone could whisper something and it could be on the fly. Give me an example of a really memorable moment when something changed at like the 11 hour and 59 and a half minute mark of what you thought was going to happen. I mean, I know, I know there were WrestleMania matches, one very, very prominent one with The Rock that, that didn't change, but day of it almost changed.

And there was, Oh, I know this story. I'll tell this story then. Okay. This was the Hulk Hogan decided he didn't want to go over to the Rock, right? Okay, so yeah, so that is known in some circles. Yeah, that might be a relatively known story, but yeah, they were planning this whole thing to, Hulk was going to lose and get over,

but it was going to be great for the Rock. And then in the last second, Hulk's like, I don't know. I don't know if I was going to lose and get over, but it was going to be great for the rock. And then in the last second, Hulk's like, I don't know if I'm going to do this. Well, well, yeah. So that was a meeting.

Uh, and, and that was a whole thing day of, and then I, I remember, you know, I just like innocently showed up with rock to WrestleMania 30 to do the big,

you know, work on the big segment with him and Hogan and Austin to which I believe Hogan was kept in the dark even before going through the big, you know, work on the big segment with him and Hogan and Austin, to which I believe Hogan was kept in the dark even before going through the curtain, didn't even know because, you know, Hey, word gets out brother. And then one person tells another person, then everybody knows Austin and rock are coming out. Um, and that was when I was casually, you know, walking by and then was told by someone of, uh, Hey, the streak's ending tonight. Like what? And I, you know, I pulled one of the lead writers off to the side to tell him and he didn't even know about it. So I think that was definitely, you know, a monumental decision that was not planned months in advance. Um, I think anyone could tell you that would probably be the most biggest example

of something that was probably decided right up until the last second. Yeah, and poor Undertaker. He talked about it in his podcast. I don't think he knew either because he's basically concussed early in that match and I don't think he remembers. I don't think to this day he remembers

probably the last two-thirds of it, which I'm sure, you know, we've been working on this Vince McMahon thing for a long time for this documentary series we're doing. The amount that chair shots and all that stuff from like the 1990s and the 2000s, you just see these wide receivers just getting crushed over the middle. And it stands out way more now because it just doesn't happen anymore. And it was the same thing back then where the chair shot was,

I would say one of the three most important kind of tools from that era for like five years during that hardcore era. You were there for at least some of it. Yeah, I was there and it was treated like a spot. You know, we'll do the chair shot here and we'll do that. And you're just casually like tossing that about.

But, you know, there certainly wasn't the level of attention and the awareness of how damaging, and you know, it seems silly to say now in 2023, like, how could you not know that a chair shot? No, it was just a fact. Yeah, it was crazy. And then you think about, you know, all the, you know, you look back on the rock and mankind and Royal Rumble of 1999 and all the famous, you know, chair shot things. And then you have, you know, a section of wrestlers who take pride in not putting their hands up and, you know, and that, and then you have, you know, I remember Triple H, uh, would always put his hands up and his reaction backstage is like, Hey, if someone's attacking me with a chair for real, I'm putting my hands up. That's what I would do in a situation like that.

Why is that seen as anything, you know, not, you know, taking it like he's supposed to take it, but it's, yeah, it's crazy to look back on now. And, and thankfully, you know, not, you know, taking it like he's supposed to take it, but it's, yeah, it's crazy to look back on now. And thankfully, you know, that, that awareness now exists and they don't do that stuff anymore, but yeah, it's, it's not that you think about, think about back to the nineties. I follow this Instagram account that is it's, I think it's called like that time in ECW or something like that. And it's just, they'll just show these random ECW clips. They're insane. ECW, and this is like early, mid, probably like that 93 to 98 stretch. New Jack does some of the craziest shit,

like shit that I don't even think most people even know happened. And there was this run there really from as ECW started to take off and then WWE started to kind of respond to it and try to up the stakes with the, with the stuff they were doing. And then obviously Mick Foley going through the cage was the culmination of that. But, and then even Shane McMahon, some of the stuff he did in the 2000s, but there was just this bar that kept getting raised. And then all of a sudden the bar was at some bar that kept getting raised.

And then all of a sudden the bar was at some place that just didn't make sense anymore. And people, some of the stunts and the gimmicks and the things that people tried there for about a four year span is really crazy to look back on. And I'm glad Instagram exists. I get to remember it because I can't believe it happened. Yeah. But I mean, I remember sitting in those meetings and being like, we've really, you know, we booked ourselves into a corner here because we can't even, there was a discussion. I remember at one point saying, you know, we can't even really do hell in a cell matches anymore because people are just going to sit on their hands waiting for the fall off the cage spot. I mean, like we did that, you know, I think it was 2000 with Rikishi

and the eight man hell in a cell where, a Cell where there was a flatbed truck. It's crazy to think about now. It's like, oh yeah, yeah, we'll do the flatbed truck gimmick and it'll come out and it'll fall off the roof backwards. Same thing with the hardcore title. I remember Vince even saying,

short of throwing somebody off of a roof or something. I mean, we did a spot with Kane and Shane where I think Kane fell backwards into a flaming dumpster or something like that on fire. And you have a little bit of flexibility because he's supposed to be Friday the 13th and Jason and all that.

But you really, really, if that went on, that's why the hardcore title was disbanded because it's like we can't up the ante anymore without it being completely ridiculous much less unsafe um we got to go back to basic storytelling and what brought us back to the dance as far as just being invested in characters and personal issues and that kind of thing because otherwise it's just going to be complete garbage, you know, dreck and horribleness. Yeah, that kind of happened

in the Jackass movie franchise too. They basically had to just stop for 15 years that everybody regrouped. Were you buying that Vince was totally gone when he was supposed to be gone? And now it seems like he's back, but it's unclear how back he is. But then he was supposed to be gone. And now it seems like he's back, but it's unclear how back he is. But then he was at a show recently

and it definitely seems like he went away. And it definitely seems like Triple H kind of became the guy deciding basically what happens, match to match, storyline, stuff like that. But did you think Vince was coming back at one point or do you think he was gone? I kind of just sit back and just watch it unfold.

And also it's, you know, as you coined the phrase, the Tyson zone, where pretty much anything can happen and you'd believe it. I do believe he was when he was gone, gone, he was gone. You know, it's based on everything that I've heard. And, you know, if he's coming back to negotiate the sale of, you know, from a business standpoint, you know, that makes sense. Yeah. And of course, I found it very amusing, you know, when he was backstage in Boston for Sina or what have you, because then, like the mustache pic became the equivalent of like trying to find Bigfoot. Like where is the legitimate picture of Vince with a mustache? And there was like 18 different versions and all of them are like,

aha, this is the real one. And then five minutes later, it was like, nope, this was taken in 2017 and all that kind of thing. Um, that's, that's really, you know, without obviously getting into the serious issues with Vince, um, you know, the mustache pick is fascinating in terms of when will it actually surface in real life? There was rumors, and I didn't believe it because it seemed like they were so stable, and then we had that moment when Stephanie quit again. And then now it's just, I still can't decide. And I

talked about those with Ariel a couple of weeks ago. Like, I still don't know how much of this is a work and how much is this is real because WrestleMania is coming up in LA soon. And it's just, as somebody who's grown up with WWE my whole life, as you have, I'm just conditioned to be suspicious of everything. Right. I never know when, when real and work, when they're separate. And this is another case of that. It's just like, okay, so this starts in January, right? When everything ramps up, usually leading with the culmination of WrestleMania.

And this is when all this drama starts again. And now we're in mid-March and WrestleMania's a couple weeks away. Now there's a mustache pic. And I don't know, I'm just suspicious. Is that fair to be suspicious? As far as him coming back and being involved in creative

right around WrestleMania? Yeah, just this being a little more thought out than maybe they're making it seem. I can't imagine. I don't know. Just based on all the stuff that always happened on the fly, you would come into work

and then a bombshell would drop on the creative team even. It's like, you know, Heyman and I are arguing with each other one day and then we're called into Stephanie's office thinking, oh, we're going to get reamed out for arguing and being unprofessional. And then she's like, oh, by the way, we're bringing back Vince Russo. And,, yeah, now's the time to come back to negotiate the sale. If you told me he was looking over all the scripts and giving feedback to Triple

H and Triple H only, I'd believe it. If you told me, yeah, he is under, it's tempting, but he's under strict, strict orders and self-imposed orders to not interfere and to strictly do it from a business sense, I would say, yeah, okay, I believe that too. I don't really, I don't know, but I don't think it was like, all right, I don't think the planning is, you know, that sophisticated to come back during WrestleMania season and have it play out. I think it just happened. My personal thing is things just happen. So my theory was that, you know, he was sitting on the side, things were going great without him. And at some point he was so used to being part of the action

and the competitive side of him was like, I got to come back. This is going too well. And then you texted me and you're like, there's no way that's true. That's not how he thinks he could care less. What made you think that? Because he's never cared about the quote-unquote internet opinion or the gossip and the hearsay. It's like, even if the quote-unquote Triple H era is universally praised and what have you, he's going to even if, you know, the quote unquote Triple H era is universally praised and what have you, he's going to think about it the way he thinks about it. It doesn't matter if, you know, we used to have, I'll sidetrack, we used to have post ROM meetings at the end of every Monday night.

It was horrific because you do this show, you put your heart into it, and then you just want to go to the next town and prepare and sleep a little bit until it's time for SmackDown. But instead, 1130, we'd gather in Vince's office and go over the show segment by segment. And then sometimes the executive producer would come in with the quote-unquote studio feedback, and they would say what they're going to say. And at the end of the day, it didn't matter if the crowd was roaring or performers were feeling good. Vince feels the way he feels about a segment. It's like,

no, this was crap or no, this was good. This is how he feels. Other people rarely can change their mind, could change his mind. But he blocks out that noise he doesn't really care what the uh scuttlebutt is it's i think it's one of the reasons why you know it took so long

for for daniel bryan at some point to like finally break into that main event scene because despite like oh yeah okay so he's getting support blah blah blah but, blah. But this is how I feel about him. And then ultimately that changed. But it wasn't because Vince wants to get over with the, you know, the internet audience or whatever, or he feels, you know, he's going to feel what he's going to feel. And he's going to make his decision the way he feel, you know, when he makes his decision.

But he doesn't, he blocks out the noise, in my opinion. Yeah, he definitely like had a type for the type of people he wanted to push. And it's ironic because over and over again, the smaller guys were some of the people that really carried the WWE over the last 25 years. Right. Even, even go back to the Shawn Michaels era. It wasn't like Shawn Michaels was a big guy, but, um, I think over and over again, it was almost like those, those types of guys had to prove themselves to Vince. You stopped working for him. What was it? 2015? Yeah. 2012 full time. And then I was consulting for three years until mid 2015. with The Rock who you've been with is, is when you look back at that whole run of working for WWE, is it, do you, does it, is it like one big blur or does the stuff stand out? Was that, was that what made you want to put everything down in a book? Like, what were the reasons?

It kind of, it was a big blur, you know, now looking back on it, um, you know, at the time you're just so caught up in the, in the, in the action and the fact that you have no, whatever the next thing is, we're going here, we're going to this next time we have this coming up and you're just always going forward, forward, forward. There's no time to reflect exactly because at the, you know, and it's a different structure now with two live shows and pay-per-views on Saturday and, you know, Saudi pay-per-views and all that kind of thing. But like when I was there, it was Monday, Tuesday on the road, every week, 52 weeks a year.

I think there was one year in 2002 where, you know, Christmas and New Year's fell on a Monday and we just said, screw it, we'll do what best of. That was one time in 12 years. Otherwise, like, my God, where wouldn't you want to be at Christmas Eve on Monday Night Raw in Toledo, Ohio? Kansas City. Right.

Yeah. But everything happened. You would have no time to reflect back because that was the famous Vince-ism that we would, even after a great pay-per-view, his motto would always be, that was great, and we have the privilege of doing it all over again tonight. That's why I always hated the WrestleMania after-party. Because there would be, like, every year, I don't know how it works now with two nights, but, like, every year there'd be a WrestleMania after-party,

and you'd have all these executives from Stanford in, and all taking, like, these deep breaths, and like, oh, can you believe it's over? And so you got raw the next night. Yeah. I have a production meeting like in hours from now. I kind of like, and it's a huge, critical, important show. There is no, it's over. It's 52 weeks a year. Um, and it gets, you know, like just, just so much, you always, I couldn't contemplate. Like I look back now and it's like, how did I travel to two different cities,

sometimes three different cities a week, every week, 52 weeks a year, minus three or four weeks of vacation, which I damn well made sure I took. Not everybody takes it like, oh, maybe I might, you know, if I'm out of sight, someone might take my spot or whatever. I never felt that way. I was like, please give me more vacation. I don't care. Take my spot. I don't, I don't care about that. Um, Vince is like, uh, heard you're taking vacation again. He was going away. But I mean, I read once there was something online once saying like, you know, Brian Gortz has skewed his vacation because he didn't want someone to step in and say, I'm like, what are you talking about? Like that is completely fabricated.

I would take double the vacation back then, you know, if I could, you know, you want to take pride in your work and you want to keep going and everything, but it is exhausting mentally, physically, you know, just, just pure exhaustion. Did you guys always know where the leaks were coming from? No, I mean, you always speculated, but I don't, I don't know where they are now. I mean, I saw something online, you know, speculating about, you know, this big women's angle and what's going to happen after mania. And it just, it always blows my mind that there would, I mean, I get like, yes, if you're a local promoter and you want the world to know who security was in a giant footage where security

broke up a fight, because they're your local wrestlers and you want their names in a dirt sheet or something. Back in my day, it was who the druids were when the undertaker would come out um that's fine or if you're like a working at a arena and someone you know foolishly leaves their run sheet behind it's one of the reasons why vince used to make us all put our name sign our name on the top of every script and or run sheet uh because if it gets you know someone finds it then you know who dropped it right patterson was always dropping scripts every five seconds, not maliciously. It was just, you know, Pat being Pat. But, you know, there's like certain, like, I understand, I don't agree with it.

I understand certain wrestlers like, uh, I'm not getting the spot I want, or I'm doing this stupid creative. I feel stupid and I need the world to know that, you know, I decided to say something against it. And I think it's dumb, but I guess I under sort of understand the logic behind that. I don't understand office workers or writers or producers. And I don't think it's, I don't think it's the vast majority. I don't think it's the majority. I think it's a handful, if anything. But to sabotage your own business and your own storylines and everything else that comes with it for the gratification of, I don't know, a bunch of newsletter readers of some kind just makes no sense to me. I mean, I know there are like former writers who blast the quote unquote dirt sheets and make it like a holy war as far as like, you know, putting them on notice.

And yeah, I've seen stuff in dirt sheets and some of them, some of it's accurate, some of it is completely inaccurate, but I've never really put the blame on them. I've always blamed whoever it is who is calling them sources with actual information. I think that's just like, it's just really just disgraceful, in my opinion. You should take more pride in your work. And then the other thing is, is that some of the stuff comes up, people, it's the audience too, in my opinion. It's like the audience reading it should know a little bit better and take it with a grain of salt. Like I'll give, the big example,

you know, from recent times is how, like Dave Meltzer, for instance, you know, a week after he admittedly had to retract something, you know, that he had printed false information and he was upfront and admitted it. But then the next week, a quote unquote source tells him, well, The Rock's not going to make it to WrestleMania because he feels he doesn't have time to get into match shape.

Yeah. Now, I know that there is that is on in and of itself, not the case. That is not the reason whether it happens or doesn't happen. I know it's a line, but then it just took a life on its own where all of a sudden everyone reading it on the internet and Twitter takes it as fact to the point where Roman goes on The Tonight Show and tells Jimmy Fallon, hey, I understand Rock made a statement saying he doesn't have time to get into ring shape. I'm watching this like, what? What statement?

Show me the statement. There is no statement. This is a quote that some stooge reported to a wrestling insider newsletter of some kind. And now it's just like written in granite and stone. This is the case. That's the stuff that just drives me nuts and always has. I think Rock is the best total package wrestler I've ever seen. If you're saying athleticism, in-ring ability, mic skills,

sense of humor, ability to ad-lib in the moment, whatever character he created. I think he's number one for me, and you don't have to answer this because you work with him. Who's number two for you? If we take the rock off the table, who was the best kind of total package person for you? The one who brought the most things to the table, most fun to work with, do a program with, most fun for the other wrestlers to wrestle with? Who do you think it was? Well, I mean, that answer is, it's kind of complicated because who do I think is number two or, or arguably number one in terms of just,

you know, total package and everything. Definitely Steve Austin. Uh, is it, was it fun to work with Steve Austin? No, it wasn't fun to work with Steve Austin because Steve is wired differently than the rock people. Steve didn't. Yeah, but I don't, I don't, as a fan, I don't care about that. I just care what the product is. Right. So from a product standpoint, you're probably right before he broke his neck.

I don't think after he broke his neck, he was probably a different kind of a wrestler. But the early, the early mid nineties or the mid late nineties, Austin was unbelievable. Steve. And even now, like you never write anything for Steve. That's not how he prefers it. You, you tell Steve what's going to happen. Steve walks off and gets, you know, gets it going in his head. Um, but John Cena is, is, is great to work with as well.

I mean, Cena is the total package. You can't deny he's an assassin on the microphone. You know, you just saw it with Austin Theory. That whatever. I think Reigns has gotten really good at it too. I think his on mic stuff is so much better than it was five years ago. Oh yeah.

I mean, once they finally pulled the trigger and allowed him to turn heel. And so he doesn't have to be this smiling. I got to be the next John Cena. I've got to, you know, the infamous suck, suffering,

suck a tash promo that he said, which whenever, whenever a wrestler is, is, uh, you know, starts a promo with, let me tell you a little story.

I'm like, Oh no, this is coming straight out of Vince's mind. Uh, and sometimes it works and oftentimes it doesn't because it's just not what that character is feeling. Yeah, I mean, look, over the years for me, I mean, working with Cena, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Trish and Mickie James, Booker T, incredible. Kurt Angle, incredible. Um, you know, when I was working with Booker T and Goldust, it was like not showing up to work that it was like, that was like work changed into camp as far as like, okay, what

do we get to do today? What, what offsite do we get to go on and what crazy things we have to do. That's when, you know, from a, from a writing standpoint, that's when it's the most fun versus, you know, hearing Vince or whatever, you know, dictate a 20 minute, that's when it's the most fun versus, you know, hearing Vince or whatever, you know, dictate a 20-minute promo and have to convince a talent. Just a scrappy eye. One of the great things about wrestling

is when the guy can still take off out of nowhere, which just happened to Sami Zayn, you know, over the last nine months. Just never in a million years would have predicted it. And it all leads to this Montreal match where it seems like he's going to get the title. And I think in the Vince era, when Vince was running stuff,

he probably would have changed his mind and said, oh, screw it, let's give it to him. In this case, they held firm. Reigns keeps the title. Reigns has been a bad guy champ now. This is the best run we have ever seen from a bad guy champ since the,

uh, days of superstar Billy Graham, which were before I was even wrestling. And I think he only had the title for maybe a year and a half. It's so much harder to be a bad guy champ, right? Cause he, they always want to have the person at the end of the card.

Who's either the good guy or he's about to be a good guy, or it's the Andre, the giant type who's, you know, everybody loves them. And maybe he doesn't have the belt, but Undertaker was like this for a while too. The bad guy champ is just really hard to pull off and now we're over a thousand days with it.

Did you ever think that would happen? I never thought it would happen like this organically and this successfully. I mean, like we had in my day, you know, we had Triple H and Evolution and some of that stuff worked really well. And some of it was, you know, I could tell the audience is like,

oh my God, literally anything but this. Because until it got to Dave, you know, kind of wanting to overtake Triple H and Triple H wanting to be his friend but keep him down it really wasn't as dynamic a story it was more of just like who's the baby face who's gonna it's like was the reverse a reverse Hogan it was like who's the baby face who's gonna put up a fight but ultimately lose to Triple H um and then you know obviously the changing of the guard came with Batista um and it was tried before that with Randy Orton, but it was rushed, in my opinion.

But yeah, the thing with Roman is it cooked. It wasn't even about his opponent. It was about the dynamic with the Usos and Heyman and ultimately Sammy and everything else. I don't know if I'm speaking out of school. I will say this. This is what I was told. That Survivor Series, not this past Survivor Series, but the Survivor Series before,

we were doing red notice product integration in the pay-per-view and this thing you know as far as like there was this like magical golden egg that um if you recall it was a much heavily reviled night of creative everybody hated the angle as far as this golden egg right austin theory found and sammy zane uhayn ratted him out and everything else like that. The original created for that. I won't go into, but just trust me, it was much, much, much, much worse. It wasn't going to apply.

When I discussed it with Dwayne, I was like, yeah, that's got to change. And then I think Vince and the team came up with this egg thing, which most people watching it didn't like it for whatever reason. That's fine. But I was told that during those vignettes where Sammy kind of stooged off Austin Theory and wanted him to be punished and then was put in a situation where you know whatever the creative was that that was the turning point as far as vince going interesting hey sammy is uh i mean i always liked him so i think we should like look at that egg angle now a little bit differently and you know perhaps give props to the golden magical magical $100 million egg. Because, I mean, listen, talent always rises to the top

and Sammy is amazing and would have risen to the top anyway. But I just thought it was funny that, like, yeah, it was those vignettes where Vince really took notice as far as Sammy as a performer. Jeez. You never know. You never know. It's always one thing with some of these guys sometimes.

Like for Stone Cold, it was the click, last match. Vince gets mad at Triple H. All of a sudden, Stone Cold's going to win King of the Ring, and then his career takes off, and he has a big match. I think that's what happened. Yeah, Triple H was supposed to be King of the Ring, and then the curtain call. He got punished. Yeah, the curtain, he got punished.

Yeah. The curtain called the click. Yeah. Yeah. We'll give it to this. We'll give it a stone cold, I guess. And then,

yeah, he becomes the biggest thing in the history of the business. So your book, it is called, there's just one problem. You can get it now, get it for, get it for whatever father figure you have in life for Father's Day when that's coming up.

Read it before WrestleMania. Brian, good to see you as always. Good luck. Good luck with the book as we head toward Father's Day. Bill, thanks a lot. Yeah,

appreciate it. Perfect, perfect time to read during WrestleMania season. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to KSC. Thanks to Tate. Thanks to Brian.

Thanks to Steve Cerruti and Kyle Creighton for producing. I will see you on this feed on Thursday with a very special gimmick podcast. Can't wait. I want to see them on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them. On the wayside, on the way so I never say I don't have feelings with them.