The Bill Simmons Podcast - The NBA’s Murky Future and Best Streaming TV/Movies With Ryen Russillo and Wesley Morris

Episode Date: November 4, 2020

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the looming start date for the 2020-21 NBA season, the possibility of rewriting the CBA, the upcoming NBA draft, and more (3:00). Then Bill talks with Wesley Morris of The New York Times about some new TV shows and movies, including Netflix’s ‘The Queen’s Gambit’; HBO’s ‘The Undoing,’ ‘On the Rocks’ starring Rashida Jones and Bill Murray, Aaron Sorkin’s ‘The Trial of the Chicago 7’; and Hulu’s horror-comedy ‘Bad Hair’ (1:10:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up? This is Bakari Sellers and I'm host of the Bakari Sellers podcast. You know, twice a week on my podcast, we cover all the news, the issues of the day through interviews with all types of guests. And so far, I've talked to people like Deshaun Watson, Charlamagne the God, Donna Brazile, even my good friend, Hillary Clinton. So listen to the Bakari Sellers podcast on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality,

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Bakari Sellers is going to be reacting as well tomorrow live on Twitter. All you have to do is go to at Ringer on Twitter and Bakari's post-election podcast will be up there. We're taping everything you're about to hear. I taped on Tuesday morning, Pacific time, because, you know, just... Who the hell knows how the next 24 hours are going to play out. I thought at the very least, we could talk about basketball with Priscilla

and movies and TV with Wesley Morris, and that could last for the next couple of days. On the Thursday podcast, I'll be doing Million Dollar Picks as well as some sort of election postscript. By that time, we should probably know who won. So there you go. And by the way, put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night. The American President did it with Amanda Dobbins, Van Lathan.

25th anniversary of that movie. And it's a fascinating rewatch considering everything that's happened the last four years. If you're listening to this, I hope you're staying safe. I'm sending good vibes. So there you go. Let's bring in our friends from Pearl Jam. All right. Ryan Rosillo is here taping this.

It is late morning Pacific time on Tuesday. It's election day. And obviously that is commanding all the attention, but there's some interesting NBA stuff going on. And a lot of this is timely. A lot of it is fluid. A lot of it's emotion. By the time you hear this, we might even have some things that have come out,

some things that have leaked, whatever. But basically, Rosillo, it's hard to tell if the season is in danger or not. I have people telling me, no, no, it's going to be fine. They're going to work it out. I have other people saying, I don't know if the players understand what's actually going on here. But the big conundrum is the owners, as we've been talking about in this podcast for a while, want to start the season on December 22nd. They want to play their 70 or 72 games. They want to get as much of the season done as possible because they know they're not

going to have fans. Get to the playoffs, try to finish it by the end of June, early July at the latest, and keep that 21-22 season intact so they can get all their revenue back. And that's what they want. And the players are, have basically pushed back and said, this is too soon. We can't start the season that fast. We had finals teams, you know, playing in early October. That's crazy. Um, we can't do this. What if, you know, we could do a 50 game season and the owner's like, well, we'd lose a shitload of money if we did that. Um, and I'm going to lay out all the money that's at stake first, but that is the conundrum. And it looks like on Friday, they pushed this CBA thing back four times. And on Friday is the new drop dead date to decide, are we doing this or not?

The owners have a chance to invoke the force majeure clause, which would basically say, because of the pandemic, which was an unnatural event that we wrote into this, the pandemic happened. We are now basically terminating this CBA clause and trying to figure out a new financial agreement during this historic American world event that hasn't happened really for a hundred years. So those are all the stakes. How worried are you that the players don't understand the gravity of this or the people representing the players, I should say? I wouldn't even use the word worried. I'm convinced of it. I'm convinced that they don't know it. I think, I mean, I know it sounds

ridiculous, but think about like when you're younger and you're like, wait a minute, what's going on with my paycheck? And there's, unfortunately, I think a lot of players, because it's like, hey, you know, this is your slot. This is what you're going to make. And you see the headline. And then once the taxes get taken out of it, once the escrow gets taken out of it, once the agent takes his cut out of it, a lot of the guys, like I've seen players argue, be like, well, that's not what I really make.

And we're like, no, we understand the math part of it. But this is so excessive, specific to the escrow stuff, because I mean, we could bore everybody to death with all that kind of stuff, but I just, I don't know that enough guys really understand because my point throughout all of this, whether it goes back to the restart bill or whatever version of this season, it's going to be if the players don't want to play, if the players are cool with losing all of this money, then why am I going to argue with them? Right. If they, I've said it the entire time, like going back to last restart, I was like, wait, I thought all the

players wanted to play. And we heard some people saying some different things. And then Michelle Roberts got involved. I was like, oh wait, maybe they don't want to play. And then it comes back and the vote is overwhelming. The players do want to play. So sometimes I worry about like the voices we were hearing representing truly 450 basketball players are just a couple of guys that are huge stars that banked a ton of money. And that's another topic that I want to get to a little bit later, but I'm not worried. I'm convinced of it that I think it's actually very predictable that the players probably don't fully understand how bad this could get for their paychecks versus what they think they're supposed to make.

So I'm going to lay out all the math really quickly. And I think I could do it in a way that if you're listening right now, if you're in your car, you're at the gym, you're in your office, whatever, I think I'll be able to lay this out in a way that people understand. Here's what the CBA is. When you hear the CBA, it's a collective bargaining agreement. It's basically a 50-50 split of all the revenue they make. Half goes to the players, half goes to the owners.

So the 2018-19 season, the one before the pandemic, it was $9.2 billion. That was the revenue. They split it in half. Players get $4.6. Last year, it dropped 10% to $8.3 billion. This is key for two reasons. One is they expected it to be $9.8 billion, almost $10 billion. So instead, it dropped to $8.3 billion. So that's a $1.5 billion swing that they just weren't expecting. Here's how that broke down. They estimated the China money, this has been in multiple reports, that the fiasco with Darryl cost them at least $200 million. They lost, it seems like between the last 16 regular season games, whatever, depending on the team, plus all the playoffs,

they lost $200 million in sponsorships. They spent almost $200 million on the bubble. And they lost $800 million in gate receipts because of 20% of the regular season plus no playoffs. So it was a $1.5 billion swing. Still somewhat sustainable. Now they have to figure out, all right, what's our cap this year? It's way less revenue. Does the cap drop? There's ways to trick it where you can

keep the cap artificially high. Here's the problem is next year. So even if they do a 72 game season with no fans, and 72 is the key number because that locks in all of the RSN fees, which for most teams, the RSN fees lock in for the year if you play 72 games. There's a couple of teams like the Lakers. Did you know this? That have like per game, basically. It's almost like a la carte game by game. They get paid for whatever. Yeah. I'd always heard the 70 game numbers. So I didn't know that it was specific that there's a couple that were different. A couple that are different. So the extra 22 games going from 50 to 72 is worth 500 million. So that goes right into the pot.

They're still losing with no fans, 72 games, 50 games, whatever. They're losing $4 billion in ticket revenue. So we're taking what should have, the number should have been last year, no pandemic would have been 9.8 billion. It drops to 8.3 billion, but now we're going into this coming year and we're out 4 billion coming out of the gate. So let's say we're starting at like, I don't know, five, five and a half, somewhere in there. You also have a major drop in season ticket renewals across the league. And they guard those numbers like in a vault. You never know team by team what it is, but think about it. Usually they do the season ticket renewals in March, April, May,

they tie them to playoff seats, um, stuff like that. Or they try to circle back in the summer. They try to get, nobody's getting season tickets during a pandemic. So that hurts for two reasons. One, it's guaranteed money. So if Rosillo decides I'm getting Clipper season tickets this year, he pays his 12 grand in March. They put it in an account. They get the interest on it for seven months.

And then whatever, it goes that way. So you lose nine, 10 months interest on that. You also lose in-stadium sponsorships because of no fans. You have all that stuff. When you go to an arena, you see the ads everywhere. You lose all of that. And you lose all the arena money from food, merchandise, drinks. Some of the owners own their arena. Penance. Yeah. Everything. All right. So there's that. So now we're looking at

somewhere four and a half billion total, but we're splitting that now in half. Here's the other thing. You mentioned the escrow. The escrow is actually easier to understand. It's not as intimidating as you think. It's basically players are guaranteed between 49 and 51% of the total basketball related income. The NBA withholds 10% of that because the goal is basically if we make so much money, you're not getting more money. You're getting, this is the cap right here. So we'll weed out a little bit more depending on how we did but then you're going to get all your escrow back the end of the year you get this check yeah awesome right right yeah it's like buy you buy a house to do

the escrow you eventually goes there um the owners are saying hey how about 40 for this year and the players are like what because if you start doing the math and Seth Curry is a good example, because I think he makes 40. If that four, if that's now 40% in escrow and you're probably not getting it, he's not making 40, he's making 25. And if you're PJ Tucker, you aren't making eight anymore.

You're making five. And by the way, that's the number, especially if you're in California for Curry, it's like you're at almost half. And now we're going that's the number, especially if you're in California for Curry, it's like you're at almost half and now we're going to start taking money out of it. And agent stuff. Yeah. Right. It's almost like it's 25% of whatever the number says in your contract that goes along the bottom line. Well, then you get the younger guys. Say you're some rookies. Say you're like Robert Williams in the Celtics. You're making, I don't know,

2 million a year. And now that's 1.3 million a year. Let's say you bought a condo in Brookline, and you thought, oh, this is what I'm making. I can afford this. My financial guy said this, this, this. That goes away. If the NBA invoked force majeure and said, we're done. We're blowing the CB up. We couldn't agree on this. And the owners are basically like, we're not, the players aren't running the league anymore. We run the league.

We pay for stuff. We're not doing it anymore. Then that new CBA could be any sort of percentage, right? It could be 58% to the owners, 42% to the players. We could have a lockout. There's a lot of bad outcomes.

And really hear the alternatives. Get ready to get excited, Basile. I already have been, so. They could spread out the escrow losses so the players don't get crushed for one season. If you remember in the summer of 2016, when the cap spiked, which led to Durant going to the Warriors, and the feeling at the time was, why didn't we kind of dole this out over four years? Instead of having the cap jump 30 years in 2016, maybe it should have jumped 10 million a year each year. And it just would have been fair competitively. The players were like, fuck that. Give us the money right away. Michelle Roberts said, fuck that. And I don't

think any of the players understood because John Wall, who I give a lot of credit to, was like, wait a minute, what's going on here? Like Reggie Jackson's making more than me because he was up in the year that there was a gap. And I think if the players had understood, hey, Golden State's going to be able to put Kevin Durant on the team right now. I don't think any of the players understood it. I think it was as simple as the owners offered it. The player said, no way. What are you guys doing?

It was like one of those deals was like, hey, we want to give you free ice cream. But like, well, not which day, you know? It was a very typical player-owner versus each other. And Michelle was at the head of it, what she thought at the time. I think, I don't know. I don't think the players understood it. I really don't think they understood

what the cap spike was going to do. Well, they definitely didn't understand the, if you were a 2016 free agent, you're holding a winning lottery ticket. And that's what led to Mozgov, Luau Dang, Evan Turner, on down the line. Because there wasn't a bad contract that year. Because remember, every time somebody... Like Evan Turner was one of the worst deals, 75 million.

And everybody's like, no, no, no, the cap goes up. And I got so mad about it on the radio show. Because I was like, what are we doing here? Just anytime anybody signs a deal now, it's because the cap went up like what the fuck well i i think at the time i was confused by it because i just thought the cap went up that means it's going to keep going that was the joke it and it was a one-time but it was a one-time thing that was it right no because what what happened was anytime i'd get mad about it we'd have an analyst come on and be like well ryan the cap went up and i go look i know i'm not the smartest guy in the right no because what what happened was anytime i'd get mad about it we'd have an analyst come

on and be like well ryan the cap went up and i go look i know i'm not the smartest guy in the room but i know the cap went up and it was just this default thing where it was like a dude who's telling you about football like hey it's not the jimmies and joes you know it's not the x's and o's jimmies and joes like yeah dude i got it i got it right um all right so they could spread out the escrow losses which is the opposite of how you heard 40 40 escrow withholding well i'm just saying that that is something that was in the papers the other day i don't know what the number though all this negotiation but it is weird because eventually like this bill becomes due it's very fitting right now when we talk about different stimulus packages, all this stuff. The owners would have to artificially keep the cap up so that there's

not this ridiculous spike again as they navigate all this stuff. Then to say, okay, well, escrow, hey, by the way, even though you're really getting 30%, 40% withheld, it's only going to be 10% per year, but we're going to carry it out over three years. It's like, well, what about the player who's out of the league in two years? There's a lot of parts of that where it has to feel like it's artificially propped up and that bill will come due at some point. Right. You're basically, it's like a loan shark in some ways. So you're kind of like, hey, just can you run the, you're like worm on the Chesterfield, right? Hey, can I take this six and just give me the 10% action over the week?

So they could spread out the escrow losses and try to soften it so it's not a one-year disaster. This has been reported in multiple places too. You start relaxing rules on certain things, right? Like hard alcohol sponsors. They've always been really careful about that. Maybe you let that happen. Maybe you get casinos involved with different teams. You move in some betting stuff. Maybe you go the whole way and you're Adam and Eve sex toys. And like, who knows? You're just like, you're grabbing revenue from wherever you can.

You could do a play-in tournament. So you do the 70 or 72 games. The play-in tournament's been, you know, I think everyone agrees it was a success. Maybe you add six to 10 more play-in games that you could then sell as a package for another 100 million. I don't know. But here's the big thing. All right, let's do the math again. The owners are around four and a half to 5 billion, it looks like. Somewhere between four and five, let's say. They were expecting probably 10, 10 billion in revenue in a perfect world

where nothing's going wrong. On top of it, you have some of these owners got kind of crushed during the pandemic because the businesses they had, like for Tita on the Rockets, there's Daryl's like, hey man, can you let me out of my contract and I won't tell you why? And he's like, cool, good luck. Daryl's in Philly a week later. You have some owners. D'Antoni became an assistant. Think about that. D'Antoni's like, I'll just be an assistant.

Yeah. You have some owners who got killed in the pandemic. You have other owners who were small market teams who relied on the rev share, you know, and relied on the Lakers and the Warriors and all these teams that were over the tax. And then they get a cut of that. Everyone's going to be terrified to go against the tax, even unless you're like the Warriors or Philly, like you're real or bomber for the most part, there's been a tax money. So you got to make up that four and a half billion expansion. As much as I'd love, I'd love to do a live ringer show for the expansion draft or have koc write up

the 430 players that should be protected um why why do we need expansion here's why i'm gonna lay it out for you just because the influx of cash because hockey tried to do that and it didn't work and all i heard about was oh hockey and new markets southern markets all that stuff i understand the the movement of populations around the United States. There are cities that probably are more deserving. And that's probably your answer to this. But I don't know. I'm always very anti-expansion.

But I can understand if I'm an owner. Well, yeah. If I'm an owner, I get a huge check out of it. It's awesome. Let's say the names I heard and I keep hearing are Seattle and Vegas. Seattle and Vegas. Hartford is not in the top five. They're third.

No? Hartford didn't make it. Yeah. New Haven, Hartford, Worcester, none of them are in. Seattle and Vegas. Seattle and Vegas. Okay. Let's say Seattle, $2.5 billion.

Ballmer paid $1.8 for the Clips and was buying a little low considering what happened in the league. Seattle, let's say you're a rich students. We've always said Seattle should be like one of the top six markets because of all the tech that's there. You could basically recreate what golden state has in San Francisco and the Bay area in Seattle. So let's say Seattle for two and a half,

let's say Vegas for two. I've now gotten to the 4.5. I've now replaced the money, the 30 owners, they cut it 50 million checks each. Now I can survive this year. And then going forward, we figured 21, 22, everything's back. And yeah, I'm giving up my TV and all my digital share is now 132 instead of 130.

130th, it's 132. Yeah, but you already know this. They're just thinking of it as long-term influx of cash. Can I just push back on this right now? Who the fuck is paying $2.5 billion for a franchise in the middle of a pandemic when they can't have fans? You figure it's not starting for a year.

This is your chance to get in the NBA. This is a league that the franchises weren't available for a while. All right, let's say two. Let's say $2 million for Seattle and $1.6 for vegas you don't think two people would do that i 100 especially in seattle you don't think seattle deserves a team yeah seattle deserves a team there's there's no debate to any of that i've never understood the pushback from vegas and then everybody just follows everybody else like vegas has a stadium yeah right. You're there. You have a stadium.

You're right in. I just would wonder if I'm the kind of guy that had cash and knew enough people to put together the cash to go ahead and buy one of these teams. We've both heard

Minnesota's for sale now for a while as people are circling that. I don't know what the long-term thing is with the Pelicans. They may stay there for a little while,

but they're been ownership groups, like three or four different groups, trying to circle around that deal. I think Detroit's in the mix. Yeah, so I would... Even though that guy has a shitload of money, I would say that's the least valuable franchise in the league right now.

They don't have a young whatever. So you're out on Luke Kennard? Out on Luke Kennard. I don't think he's the face of the franchise. They don't even have a young whatever. So you're out on Luke Kennard? Out on Luke Kennard. I don't think he's the face of the franchise. They don't even have a top three pick. Blake's hurt. And if you're just saying, what's the worst roster

with the shakiest fan support combo? I would say Detroit. Yeah, no argument on that one. But I would... But you know what? Wait a minute. I mean, shouldn't we put Charlotte ahead of them? Only because if you're looking at it, like when Detroit's right, it's still probably

better than what the Charlotte Hornets are. But Charlotte is a unique situation because Jordan bought that franchise basically for like five bucks and a 24 pack of Diet Coke. They gave him like the deal of all time. Unbelievable. Yeah. And so, and he's, he cares about his legacy there. He's not going to move them and he's not going to sell the team. He likes, you know, he's, he's first of all,

he's their only black owner right now. And I think he has real significance behind the scenes now. And I just don't see them moving. I would say new Orleans has, uh, Gail Benson, obviously, but you know, they've invested in that franchise. They've invested in, obviously, but they've invested in that franchise. They've invested in a GM. They spent money on a coach. They spent money on free agents last year. I don't think they've necessarily to have a big check coming. And that's another one that's really struggled from attendance and season tickets the last couple of years. And when we're talking about what are teams that could make a splash, to me, that's a team that could potentially make a splash. Just because I don't think financially the team is generating that much revenue. Yeah. And when they're right, like I look at Phoenix's warmer Detroit, detroit though because when it's right it's a pretty great fan base and so that's why i just don't think even though i'm with you about the excitement of the roster um although there's it's funny kind of going up to this more and more teams just kicking the tires on blake griffin but the contract is in such a

position that any good team trying to add him is like you know we're kind of stuck but i was talking to last night was like hey we actually like blake like me too it's gone it's gone so bad for blake griffin now that everybody's acting like it's horrible to have him on your team. That's just not true. It's just a challenging trade and, of course, the health part of it. But I think if you're going to mention Detroit, to be fair to that fan base that has a much better track record than Charlotte,

although if you want to go way back to like Larry Johnson and Zoe, those attendance numbers for that Charlotte franchise just destroyed everybody else. I think I remember them being like north of 21,000 for those games, but when you're a bad product, it's tough. My point, and I think it's a good one on the expansion thing. So let's just circle back to it before we get too derailed is that if I'm the kind of guy that has access to that kind of cash, that's always wanted one of these franchises. I don't know that I want to cut you a check. And even if it's, Hey, you don't own the team until everything's normal, which

feels like a huge assumption right now with where we're at. I wonder how many of these teams could become available. I think we could have a time where more teams become available in a very short window than we've had in a very long time coming out of the pandemic. Here's the flip side to that. You see these SPACs that have been being put together, right? Where people are putting together all kinds of investments.

They raise like 400 million, 500 million with the intent to either buy smaller properties or buy pieces of sports teams. And that's one thing that I think at least the NBA has changed their opinion of before. Could somebody have minority stakes of multiple teams? In the past, no way. And now they've kind of relaxed the rule on that. And technically, you and I could form a SPAC and we could buy minority interests and the Pistons and the Nuggets or whatever it is. So they're relaxing rules on that.

The thing with the SPACs though is the rules are kind of in place for people to put together a bunch of money and you could basically go after majority shares of teams or even minority shares of team for a cash influx. I think this stuff's like the wild, wild west right now. And if the NBA was like, Seattle and Vegas are on the table,

we want to get to this number, who's interested? I think it would get exciting and interesting. And I think it's conceivable because again, this is the only way they're replacing that money. They could do a playing tournament. They could do hard alcohol. It's you're not getting close to replacing four and a half billion dollars. You're just not. Yeah. I mean, the, the, the Jack Daniels sex swing parlay of the week. When I read that sentence, it's like they may go hard alcohol gambling casino. I was like, oh, okay. All right.

But you're right, Bill, that number. And, you know, I think it's at least worth bringing up too. If I'm Michelle Roberts, I'm resisting some of the numbers that you're just flooding with everywhere. And, you know, the NBA is going to say, hey, the numbers are the numbers and this is what it is. And this is a partnership the way And this is a partnership, the way the NFL is a partnership, the way baseball is not a partnership with ownership and players. But I'm always going to push back on it. I'm going to go, okay, fine. But then the counter to that, if I'm in the

ownership side, I'd be like, okay, well, look, whatever. We can argue by a decimal point here or there. Do you think we're actually making more more money do you think we're not losing billions because we're already down 10 based on last year's projections so yeah the to go back to the beginning part i'll ask you do you think the players i think we both agree they may not fully understand all this stuff because i'm not sure that i'm fully understanding of all of it although you did a great job of laying it all out i'm like 90 yeah Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's good. There's still 10%. Like it's like, so if they get expansion fees, I don't think they have to share that with the players, which is another fun wrinkle to this. Could I go just

absolute anarchist Michelle Roberts negotiating style if I were in the room? Could you say, hey, when you make a profit selling these teams, we don't see any of it. So why should you own the team? So you have to deal with the operating losses. Now that goes completely against what the entire CBA is built on because it's, again, back to that partnership, the 50-50 split. Remember, it used to be 57% for players and it's gotten whittled away every single time they went to the bargaining table. I don't know if the players understand the math. I think the players, because I just haven't heard enough from them. I don't know that they understand the magnitude of a force majeure here and what this new CBA would look like, because I think the owners would really go for it then, because I think

there is a bit of resentment that it feels like the players just kind of took the league over with everything going on this year. And look, we know how owners work and I could see those guys get in a room saying, okay, fine. They want to blow this up. They don't want to start in December. Okay. Well, good luck enjoying this new CBA because we can play the longer game than you can. Or good luck not having a season and we'll just take the hits and we'll write off a bunch of it from insurance and we'll blame the pandemic. And I don't know how much, like, for instance, the British Open, not the British Open, the Wimbledon. When the pandemic was happening, Wimbledon was like, cool, Wimbledon's canceled this year.

And they cashed a giant insurance check. It was like 120 million or whatever it was because they had made the arrangements. I don't know if the NBA has stuff like that, but I do know they're not going to play the season if the numbers are completely unfavorable, where it's like everybody's losing on the owner's side. They're just not going to do it. Have you heard there are owners that don't want to play this year? I'll be answering that question right after the break. This episode is brought to you by Movember The mustache is back with a vengeance Look at Travis Kelsey

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Available at your local Canadian tire. Enrollment required. Keep your receipts. Other conditions apply. See pennzoil.ca slash warranty for full details. All right. Rosillo asked me if I heard there were owners that did not want to play. I've not heard that yet, but I do wonder if we're headed toward... Remember in the past when they had lockouts, you would have little clusters of owners would develop fighting different things, right? When the whole lockout thing was happening in 2011, there was a small market side that was basically like,

we have to have revenue sharing. I'm in Oklahoma City. I can't compete with these Laker guys. The irony was that Clay Bennett's like, I'm in Oklahoma City. I can't compete with these Laker guys. The irony was that Clay Bennett's like, I'm in Oklahoma city. I can't compete with the Lakers. It's like, well, you were in Seattle. You know, what is like the eighth biggest city in America? Maybe you should stay there, you moron. But they were doing that whole thing. So you had the cluster there. Then you had the big market owners who were like, wait a second. Why do I have to share? I paid more

for my team. Why do I have to share profits with these guys? And Silver and Stern figured out how to massage it and make it cool. I don't know what happens this time if there's three or four owners who are like, wait. My team's not going to make the playoffs. Let's say it's like

who has no chance of making the playoffs like Cleveland. Uh, we pay, take your pick at the bottom of the East. We can talk about how bad the East is. Let's say Cleveland, let's say Dan Gilbert says, I'm not making the playoffs and I have no fans. I'm going to get crushed this year. I also have, I'm paying Kevin love 31 million a year. I have all this things like I, you know, I, If we don't have the season this year and I can write some stuff off, awesome. Sign me up for that. You might have somebody say that.

I have not heard, though. Have you? Yeah, I think I feel like I always hear it. I definitely heard it in baseball when they wanted to restart. I can't believe ownership allows some of this stuff to happen in baseball. When you have opening day rosters for the Cubs in 2019 at north of 210 million and then the rays are paying 50 million like how are you even doing the same thing like how yeah how do you guys get to the because you know all that revenue sharing it makes me think like i should have bought the rays 15 years ago i should have

figured out a way to do it be like wait a minute all the other owners of the luxury tax they're gonna just pay for my bills. Cool. Give me a team. I've heard there's some. I've heard there's some. And I think it has more to do with the long-term wanting to restructure what the CBA looks like. Because I do think there's, I think there's just resentment that it's like, wait, where are we at right now? Like, do you guys just not want to play?

If you don't want to play, then fine. We won't play. And then we'll see what it looks like when we all come back. And I do. I'm going to ask you it this way. And maybe it's fair. Maybe it's unfair. But I feel like the more recent culture of NBA players has been a culture of not really wanting to play games.

We've de-emphasized so much of the regular season. We had all of the load management stuff, the resting thing, and then the NBA stepping in saying, Hey, do you guys mind not sitting all of your best players on the Thursday night TNT games or the Saturday night ESPN game? You're talking about a preservation, right? I mean, it was just so, but it was also really bad. Like it was bad for your partner. Cause there were plenty of games. You can go in there and be like, well, why did you play the Friday game in Minnesota? That was on a regional network. And then at this Saturday prime time, you couldn't, cause it was in the back to back, like do a better job being a better business partner. And I don't think the players care because the

players are like, look, whatever. I've signed for $25 million. I get my check. I don't care. So when I hear- Well, wait. On that side, though, the flip side of that is I think the owners did a bad job of making it easier on the players, just the rigors of the travel schedule. And I think they really learned something from the bubble. And that's something I've heard over and over again. I'm sure you have too. Whatever version of the season we have, they're completely changing their strategy with travel. The Lakers go to Denver and they're at Denver two times during the season. They're playing both of those games in Denver when they're there. They'll play their Friday,

Saturday, Sunday morning, whatever it is. They're not going to go back twice. And I think they're going to condense things like that. So if, you know, I don't know how many road games you'd have in a 72-game season. It's 36, but I don't know how many times you'd play. I guess you'd play one and a half times in your conference, one time in the other conference. I think they would make it so that as little trips as possible, basically.

So in the old days, it's 36 trips. Now maybe it's 28, 27, something like that. All right. But there's also a part of it where it's competitive where you go, okay, so if you play Denver, you play him that weekend, and then you never see him again the rest of the regular season and you're in the West. Like that seems weird. Well, the other piece of that

is like, let's say that's the week LeBron pulled his calf. Exactly. And you have to play at Denver Friday, Sunday, no LeBron either game. That's why they haven't

done it that way. But I think they're going to say, well, you're losing either way. So let's lose this way. And the players over and over again, the feedback they got were

from the guys in the bubble was that the no travel really helped us. Well, no shit, but it's not. And not testing for pot really helped us. Right. Like, honestly, those were the two, those are the two big takeaways from the bubble. But this is the biggest point

that I'm going to make on this entire thing until we get to some of the offseason stuff is I'd like to hear from more players because the league has become LeBron's voice. And as much as I've gotten in trouble with this before, I'm going to do it again. And that is that I think people can be inherently selfish about a lot of the decisions they make. Not saying every single decision you make is selfish. But when it comes to work, I don't care who you are or what your job is. You're going to find a way to complain about it and when you're a superstar

you kind of you almost like complaining about it a little bit more so for lebron yes this is an incredibly quick turnaround all right he just won a title weeks ago he's made you know i don't know if it's over a billion dollars total with everything all calculated uh and to jump back into it at Christmas for him feels kind of ridiculous. But you hear what he said on the shop on Friday? He was saying like, because Danny Green had mentioned on a Ringer podcast

that he thought LeBron would take the first month off. I think Obama asked LeBron about that. LeBron's like, yeah, I'll just have Anthony Davis carry us for that first month and come back. If I would be scared, if I was him to do that physically at age, heading into my age, 36 season was 17 years to do another condensed season.

When I'm trying to extend as much as I can. I, I I'm going to push back on one thing you said. I think the reason we haven't heard the players be as vocal about this is I think they had to get through the election. I think a lot of them were using their capital socially and in a whole bunch of other ways to push the voting initiatives, things like that. I think when we get to Thursday, as we get to 24 hours away from this could be a force majeure situation, I think that's when the

players... That's why I want to do this podcast now because over these next three days, I think that's when the players, that's why I want to do this podcast now, because over these next three days, I think so much is going to change and we're going to hear voices and we're going to hear arguments. You asked about, you know, what owners have come out and said, fuck this, let's not do it. I think we'll probably hear who a couple of those guys are by like Thursday, right? Well, the ownership is tough though, because anytime you speak out on like anything CBA related, you get fined. I mean, you just get absolutely hammered for it.

So I don't know how vocal. Those guys have done a really good job of being aligned. They did the Lee thing. Yeah, but back to the LeBron part of this. I understand LeBron's concerns for LeBron, but there's hundreds of players that haven't played since March. Yeah. Haven't played a game since March. There are hundreds of players that are mid to lower class on the NBA pay scale that are still worried about all the different people they're supporting. And we can get on their case for like living beyond, but whatever.

Like you're a millionaire, you buy a nice house, you probably have mortgage payments. You're worried about all this stuff. Maybe you're taking care of some other people in your family. And I understand with everything that's going on with the election, it being the priority, but I'm still surprised. It's not like you can only talk about the election. If you're a public figure, you could certainly mention some of these other things. And it feels like everybody looks at LeBron and goes, man, that's a really quick turn. It is for LeBron and Jared Dudley, who we love, who came on this podcast was incredible and said, Hey, don't get mad if they start this and we start sitting out big games. Okay. But that's you guys who just went on this run

more than half the league hasn't played since March. I would imagine. And it, and it went to the same thing on the restart vote where I was like, wait, do guys not want to come back and play? Oh wait. It was like 400 players voted to come back to play. Okay. Where are all of these guys? Because that you would think is the more important part of it. But as we know history with this league, especially going back to the nineties where it was David Falk and those superstars, maybe the superstars should always run the league. Maybe it should only be LeBron's voice. I guess it just really surprised me

because if I were a decent player making less than 10 million, who's on a team that sucked, I'd be like, look, we want to salvage 21-22. I want to figure this out. And I want to come back and play basketball. I'm sorry if some of the teams that went deep in the playoffs are going to be tired in December and January.

I guess I, the only thing I would add to that is all of this is happening so fast. Like even I was having trouble processing it until the last 48 hours. And I did like a big, you know, I talked to some people, did a big deep dive this morning, just like trying to understand all the facts. hours. And I did like a big, you know, I talked to some people, did a big deep dive this morning, just like trying to understand all the facts. I think this is the week when people are going to really start to put the jigsaw puzzle together. Because think about it, like two weeks ago was when we started talking about, on this podcast actually, about, hey, they might come back on Christmas. And now they've just been trying to figure out how to do that. I think we're headed toward a stalemate and somebody's going to have to give. And I don't know how it plays out. I really don't. I'm concerned. And I think there is a chance. I don't think a 50-game season makes

sense for the owners because now you're losing even more money. And I'm not saying I'm rooting against that. I'm just saying at some point, you've removed financial incentive to play the season for the people that own the franchises. And that's the part that concerns me. I don't want to lose a basketball season. I don't think anybody does. If the majority of the players said,

hey, we're cool with losing money. We just want the extra rest. We want to play the 50 games, which anything that happens here, Bill, we both understand has to allow the following season to line up right, whether it's the end of the season and how bad the ratings were. But again, we had playoff games in October going up against NFL Sunday. So it's not a shock that some of those NBA ratings were terrible. And they definitely don't want to do that again.

And the election didn't help either. Right. But the election, I election coverage politics in general have been destroying daytime cable and sports for years now like even when i was back at espn i remember looking at some of our dailies and it wasn't even like i was a simulcast show but we expected a certain number and then after a while i'm like what the what is going on with our tv number and you'd have executives go look at all the espPN and ESPN two lineup shows here in our midday. They're like crushed. We were getting crushed because the guy that's in office. Yeah. Um, we're going to take one more break,

come back and do some draft stuff. Okay. So draft we think is a couple of weeks away here now two weeks away two weeks away thursday we think can i can i share with you what i can i share on the podcast what i shared with you today share whatever you want knock yourself out because there was a couple um teams that i've been talking to and they were worried the draft was going to get pushed back which you know most people think it's still going to be in the 18th it It'll be fine. But one team was like, if this draft does get pushed back

with the way Tyrell Terry is being talked about by Simmons, he'll be in the top five by next year. I'm trying to get stuck on. Yeah, they were single-handedly saying

that the longer it goes before the draft happens, the way you've been talking about Terry, you'd have him as a top five pick in a couple months. Big mistake. I should have talked about

how terrible I thought he was. So he fell to 14 if I had that kind of power, which I don't. But yeah, I mean, we have a top three of Minnesota, then Golden State, and then Charlotte. Nobody knows who the number one pick is. Lamello seems like this artificial stock that's just being propped up by a couple people that now everybody's kind of running the financials on and be like, Hey, wait a second. I thought you said

this generated 90 million in revenue a year. I'm seeing that it's minus 90 million. It seems like he has a chance to free fall out of there. What are you, what are you hearing about this? I'm just trying to, what was it? Was it Sopranos? Like, I told you to push with bare sticks. I think some teams straight up think he sucks. Yeah. I mean, it's not think. I mean, I've heard it. And I was like, look, I don't know.

I don't know how anybody watches the Australian stuff and goes, I mean, I love this. This is great. He has a lower floor than people realize. Now, if you're going to sit there in a room and say, hey, he's 6'8", he can really see the floor. We can fix his shot in this draft. All right. I'll listen. I'll listen. I don't want to put a ton of stock in. I don't want Australia to single-handedly convince me that he sucks, but some teams are, are looking at it and it's just,

you know, the more time you get with it, the way it was explained to me the other day was your stock analogy is perfect. It's like, he's been putting these scenarios to just take a million shots and have massive production. And he's just not great at playing basketball right now,

as far as understanding it. It reminds me a little of when Philly tried to win rookie of the year from Michael Carter Williams during the first year of the process. And the whole offense revolved around him and he's putting up a couple of triple doubles and people are like, oh, this is interesting. And if you're actually watching it, you're like, wait a second, this guy can't really shoot. He has the ball an incredible amount. And if you're actually trying to win a playoff series, this guy would not be the guy you were feeding every time. The Lomelo thing, there's so many red flags. I can't imagine how you take him in the top three, much less top five,

because on top of it, how many times do, have to see this over and over again, where the guys that actually make it in the league are just like gym rat slash fucking bad-ass dudes who from a personality standpoint, um, are just home runs. And over and over again, you see it and you see like somebody like Donovan Mitchell, he drops to 13,

huge chip on his shoulder. He's going to prove everyone wrong. He's been proving everyone wrong ever since he was at Greenwich country day. The lamella thing's kind of the opposite of that. He's been completely catered to by his family. He's been artificially propped up higher than maybe he should have been for the last couple of years. And then he goes to Australia and it's basically like he's the son's coach on the little league team who gets to just pitch every game and bat cleanup. And everybody talks about how great Timmy is. I would be terrified to take him. Not to mention that that's the deepest position in the league.

I don't want to take a point guard in the top five unless I know he's a home run. I've said this before too. And I remember asking the Lakers about it. I was like, hey, how's the Le lavar thing's probably a little like overrated right and they're like no it sucks like it sucks like it sucks to deal with so i don't know if he's back on first take walking in like conor mcgregor and going all right lamello's winning mvp and all the bullshit that you know none of us should have paid as much attention to it as as before but you know lonzo was a better basketball player than lamello was at this stage lonzo did some really special things and lamello's just taller yeah not as good and i'd ask you like what if

lamello were lonzo where would you take him in this draft well he's like a taller lonzo right yeah right and lonzo was good this year. And then I don't know what the hell happened in the time off because he was one of the worst players out there during the bubble. Yeah, I'm not giving up on him. But the bubble was so bad. I'm with you. It was bad, but the regular season was good.

The regular season was like, oh, wait, things are looking a little bit better here. We're talking about his improved shot. If Lomelo were as good as Lonzo was during the regular part of the regular season, I actually think you have a nice player, like a decent player there. And that's the weird thing about this draft is I think it is a two-man race at this time between Edwards and Wiseman.

I'll leave myself an allowance that there could be a third guy to get into that top three, but I'd be surprised if at four, Wiseman and Edwards are still available. That would actually be shocking, certainly with Edwards too. We've made some cool ringer videos on some of these guys. Edwards is just, that's one. I don't think there's anybody who says, I know how this is going to play out

as lying. Cause you watch some of those clips and you think that guy looks like Dwayne Wade. If Dwayne Wade came back from a time machine in 2003 and, you know, was a better three-point shooter in 2020. Like, there's some weightish elements to him. And he can also be really pretty easily picked apart. I really do like the guys more in that 6-13 range where, you know, maybe the ceiling isn't as high, but I know what I'm getting. You know I love Hal Burton. You know I love Terrell Terry. Those are the guys to me.

This is one of those drafts where I just want to go with, do you have a skill that translates to the basketball I just watched in the bubble? Are you an awesome rebounder? Are you a good rim runner? Do you have three-point range? Are you a really smart guard who can kind of fit in in any situation? And like Halliburton for the Warriors, which it's too high to take him at two, but I do feel like if you put him on that team, he could play with those guys, you know, and he could bring an interesting wrinkle

to them where it's like now Curry doesn't have to handle the ball quite as much and you can play him off and could do these different things. And the same thing with Terrell Terry, who they're not going to take either. That's another shooter. Put the guy in the fucking corner and that's it. Now I have to worry about three shooters when I'm out there. So when I see them at two,

I just don't think the top three makes sense for them. They could take Edwards and cross their fingers, but if they miss on that, they're basically blowing this one unbelievable chance to extend their contendership, make it a 12-year run instead of a seven-year run. They can't miss the pick. They're the team that can't miss.

They have to get somebody who can play 30 minutes a game in a playoff game. Maybe this year. Could they miss the pick though and still be really good? Like they can end up with a guy that totally doesn't work out. They're still going to be good. Could be really good for a couple of years, but not long-term.

This is, this is their James Worthy moment. Yeah. You know, like when the Lakers were able to refuel with Worthy in 82 and then Jamal Wilkes gets old by 84 and they have this awesome future hall of famer to just plug in with speed and athleticism. It's what the Celtics lost with bias. And I don't, I don't think anybody in this draft is as good as

either of those guys, but you think about the ability for a contender to refuel is really rare. It's, it's one of the rarest draft things you can have. So I thought you were going to go with how Matt Geiger allowed the Sixers to transition into Theo Ratliff. Matt Geiger allowed the Sixers to keep Allen Iverson in the summer of 2000. Because if he waived his trade kicker, they would have traded him to Detroit. It's a great what if. Trade was done. It was a wrap. Eddie Jones was going to Philly.

Stackhouse was going to Charlotte. The Lakers were getting like Anthony Mason and Kukoc. And Mac Iger would not waive his trade kicker. There you go. I love that. You were on it. It's good. 1.2 million a year.

It's like, no thanks. That was when you were at your peak. Thank you. Yeah. Early 2000s. I was really thriving back then. So what do you think the Warriors do? Do they stay or do they trade down or do they trade the pick?

I was told last night it'd be shocking to see them stay at two. So it feels like Edwards, but I don't know who's going one. I think the Charlotte stuff that KOC had that you guys talked about last week on the podcast, you don't need my help to check anybody's math,

but I think that that's a thing that's talked about. I don't think LaMelo... How about this first take theory for you? Would Jordan not draft LaMelo third because his father said that he would beat him on first take 101? 100% he wouldn't draft him

because of that. Yeah. No, I think Jordan's that crazy. They also don't need a point guard. No, they have actually actually that's the one part of that roster that's actually worked out a little bit here and in charlotte despite not liking that roster that the job coach borrego's done with that team has been incredible as far as how competitive they were in games that you know they ended up losing all the time but uh i don't i think golden state would like to move back pick up a piece whether it's a player or another pick

and then take somebody else and the halliburton thing he can play off he can i mean he did it his freshman year where it confused the other guards that were bigger scores but he was he was more than happy to facilitate for them he didn't want to take a ton of shots his shots a little weird it looks like an old guy that's had injuries because it's like this set shot and he doesn't jump at all on it, but I think he goes in. It goes in. He hits it a really good number. And what I do like about him is, you know, Steph and Clay can actually play off of the ball. If you try to do this with James Harden, where you're like, Hey, you're going to watch and I'm going to do stuff or Westbrook. And there'll be like, wait a minute, or even with Lillard, like Lillard is amazing, but Lillard needs to have the ball.

And Halliburton could, in theory, two seems two's too high for Halliburton, but he does a lot of stuff off the ball that I really like. Like he'll cut through, he'll, he'll sit back screens and he'll come back and he'll, he'll get it. And then he'll initiate the offense. And he has some floaters. Like, he's not going to cross you up like Der Derek Rose and that kind of stuff, but he's a really smart player.

And he's a high IQ guy. The high IQ thing for that team I think is even more important. You're putting somebody in who just kind of gets it. Yeah. What is the deal though? Because all I've heard so far are bad Golden State offers. Every time I'll hear it, I'll go, eh.

Let's say they liked Halliburton or let's say they liked whoever, somebody that they could get three to seven picks later. They could just go backwards, you know, to five with Cleveland

and get flip picks with them, pick up something. I don't know if they'd want to pick up another salary, but it could be, that could be a good Larry Nance Jr. spot for them. Take a flyer on him

for two years at 12 million. You can fit him in your trade exception. Maybe get some sort of very, very, very protected pick swap for later years. Your guy, Seti Esmond. Chetty? Chetty. Your guy, Chetty. Maybe he's in there. Who knows?

Can't get rid of him, man. Are you kidding me? Well, and if you're the Cavs, you move up to two and you take a crack at Wiseman because you already have two guards. That does not make sense. Detroit's another one. I had floated on Zach's podcast

a couple of weeks ago a deal with Wiggins and Blake and flopping seven for two and something else. I don't know if the Warriors would roll the dice with Blake. Probably not. It's probably risky.

I think it's a great risk. If you read the offseason stuff with him, it seems like his knees are in pretty good shape. You're only carrying that contract for two years, second year's and expiring. So that's a chance

to maybe flip that Wiggins asset. I saw him not that long ago. He looks great. Hmm. Yeah. Do you like at a white party? Everybody dressed in white, Manhattan beach,

t-shirts and white pants. One of those. Uh, yeah, yeah. That's what it was. Um, it's a good time.

It's a good time. So what do you do if you're Minnesota? What do you want? What's your dream scenario? Not this draft. It's such a bummer. It's not Beal. Like nobody thinks,

well, I shouldn't say that. I shouldn't say nobody. Cause it's not like I talk to every single person. Um, the Beal momentum as of now doesn't feel very good. And we can, I want to,

we have to do this about the East. Cause it feels like all these bad East teams think they're one tweak away. And, um, you know, Beal just keeps getting brought up over and over and over again like who are the middling players that are available that make you better that somebody else wants to give up on and unless it's a team that just completely falls in love with

the wiseman or edwards and then likes the idea that they're cheaper than the player that's going out but we were talking about that with atlanta's, I think, at six and has made no bones about being honest about they'd love to get a veteran. They'd love to get a proven guy. They'd want to compete for a playoff spot next year if there is a season. And KOC had that idea of trading six for 11 into Rosen. But you look at those bigger salary guys that they could get, it's not a long list. It's like Gordon Hayward. It's DeRozan. It's LaMarcus Eldridge for one year. It's Harrison Barnes. It's Otto Porter. It's pretty slim pickings for those guys in that. Buddy Heald, maybe. It's slim pickings for guys in that $22 to $27 million salary range. So I don't know.

Could Atlanta try to flip picks with Golden State? I don't know why they would because I don't think that helps them compete with the playoffs. Then you go seven Detroit. Detroit's the one that needs, that's the most desperate team, I think. Because just whoever they just stay at seven and take,

it's still not a good situation. They could actually use that pick to try to patch together a bunch of assets. That's why I was hoping the Celtics might trade up into that spot. So let me throw it to you this way, because this is the best way I've had to explain to me of anybody. Because I was like, look, where are the names? I'm like, who's actually available? You know, like what's going on? Now, I've heard Gordon Hayward does want out, but I don't know if he's going to get the money.

He's not opting out of that huge number unless he knows he's getting the deal. So that could be an Atlanta solution, even though it doesn't make a ton of sense. But I could also understand Atlanta saying, hey, whatever. We didn't have to give up anything. We used all this cap space.

We'll figure out which young players we want to play. But does Gordon Hayward, not like the current situation in Boston enough to then want to go ahead and play with Trey Young and watch him shoot a million times? Well, wait, hold that thought though because people would think it's crazy for him to opt out of a $34 million deal.

But here's the thing. If the salary cap is going way back next year and he could figure out some deal where he gets like four for 78, right? And it's like 20 million, 19 million, 18 million, 17 million. It's like, oh my God, he took a $14 million pay cut. Well, actually he didn't because that 34 million you were making this year, it's already going to be less money if it's 72 game season. If it's a 50 game season,

or they do that 40% escrow thing, it's even less. You care more about the season after locking down some contract when there's going to be less cap space, more people in the space, and suddenly it's unrealistic you could get 20 million. So there's some sort of math version of it that it actually might make sense. And by the way, that would screw the Celtics if he opted out because they would much rather have him as an expiring contract slash hope that he's good this year guy versus you just lose the asset exactly i mean it's a problem and they should be worried about it but it really comes down to like hey what what does he know that's already going to be available because i don't know what i believed i actually think you were very early on this i don't know if you shared it with a ton of people but it was just kind of

you and i talking about like hey what are you hearing on hayward because one of my pushbacks to well you can get go ahead and do more guaranteed money now than what the one year at 34 million is for him and i was like one of the things i always say to that is let's not freak out and act like he's going to get zero dollars offered to him at the end of this contract but because of what you just said with whatever you're trying to figure out and if the cap is artificially at 109 then it might make the most sense for him especially with all the injury. But that means that he'll have wanted out of Boston bad enough to go to a bad team that has the cap space, which I think sometimes when that's brought up,

it's like, wait a minute, why would he want to go ahead and do that? But I think Gordon Hayward's sick of having moments where he's looking around, going on the fifth option right now for shooting. And he probably feels a little snake bit with how it's gone the first three years. Yeah, and I'm not even blaming the other guys. You for being like, dude, you're hurt all the time.

And even when you're back, you're not even back all the way. So, yeah, sorry, like we're not getting it to you a ton. But that's something Boston, again, like what's Gordon Hayward supposed to do? Do them the favor, not opt out so that he can be a trade asset later on and get traded to a team he wants to go to even less than a free agent team he signed with. So, you know, look, in this one, everybody should just do whatever they want. He could opt out. They could sign him to a new deal as a sign-in trade, I think,

and trade him to Indiana for Turner. Why do you want Turner so bad? Because I think they need to get an asset for Hayward. They can't just let him leave and nothing happens because they're not going to have enough cap space to get an impact guy. They're still too high. So to just lose him for nothing is a disaster for them um okay so back let's go back to the east though just because this is important to understand finish up on this go through all how bad the east is so as i was asking about hey give

me names give me who the names are of the people that are being thrown around. That's one of the main things I ask everybody that I talk to. And I was like, why aren't there any names? Why aren't there any names? And a Western Conference team was brilliant about this. I mean, obviously, this isn't genius level stuff. It made a ton of sense. It was like, hey, look, if you play in the West, when you play the bad teams, you still have to bring it. Because Minnesota's got two good players.

The Pelicans are a good team, even though the record's bad. Sacramento has three really good players, and that's not including Bagley, because nobody knows what the hell's going on. The Spurs are still competitive enough. Phoenix is good. Memphis didn't make the playoffs, technically, based on standings, obviously.

And Memphis has two maybe young studs. Now look at the bottom of the East. Now the top of the East is stronger now with options than we've had in recent years, which is nice. That depth of the top of the East is like, Hey, wait,

but the bottom is so bad. Cleveland's terrible. Atlanta was the second worst team record wise in the East. And I keep hearing stuff like if they don't make the playoffs, that there's a mandate down there, that all sorts of things are going to change, which would also lead me to believe they offer Hayward, whatever they want,

just to be able to say they did something. Detroit's terrible. The Knicks suck. The Bulls are sneaky, like could go either way where it's, hey, 35 wins, something's really happening here, or oh man, none of these players are any good. The Wizards, you know, even getting Wall back, and I'd heard that they're

on Wiseman and that they like them, but I mean, they should be a playoff team if they're healthy, but who are they beating? We've been over Charlotte. The fact that Charlotte's better win percentage-wise than all those other teams is a credit to them being competitive. Orlando still isn't healthy. So the top seven all feel

pretty good, but the bottom of the East, it's awful. It's awful, but... You mentioned Orlando and it's like Orlando could suck next year. They could, but... They're kind, and it's like Orlando could suck next year. They could, but... They're kind of at the crossroads of what they are as a team. I know the Bulls management

and coaching staff thing there is new, but it's still this young, unknown roster. The Knicks, it's new with Leon and Thibodeau in there, but there's a lot of teams. The way it was explained is that there's more buyers now than you normally would have because it's a lot of guys. The way it was explained is that there's more buyers now than you normally would have,

because it's a lot of guys either looking to save their job, have some sort of artificial improvement to the roster, just by doing some kind of transaction that most of these teams, again, these guys haven't got to do their job now in well over a year, but normally you should be able to pick somebody off from these bad teams that know they suck. But a lot of these teams think that they're just like this close,

a little tweak away from maybe making the playoffs. And that's why we have kind of a weird lack of names in the trade market. Does that make sense? Well, and then you have teams that should be the names in the trade market, like Washington, who should be saying, let's get as much for Beal as we can get. There's so many teams trying to acquire a big guy. We actually have one. And ultimately, it's too risky by the time we're

half decent again, he could leave. And Washington's like, no, no, we're keeping him. So that guy, he's just off the market. And then you have, I think part of the reason we don't have the right names is just because the salaries got too high, which we've talked about in previous podcasts. Where Kevin Love, if he's making 18 million a year, you could talk yourself into that pretty fast. When he's at 30, you pause and you don't want to do it. And that's a name like, oh, that would be fun if Atlanta could get Kevin Love. They're not going to take that risk and they're not going to add another subpar defensive player to their team. But I think so many of those plus 25 million salaries are so intimidating. Harrison Barnes making 24 million. You're going down the line. It's like, all right, let's go get Lowry. Toronto's having a fire sale. He's making like 33 or whatever it is. It's just really hard to pull

off trades. I think it's the hardest. It's been in a while on top of all the financial concerns and nobody wants to go into tax. Nobody. You might see three people in the tax next year. And then even the Knicks, who normally are ready to do anything dumb, actually seem like they're developed some sort of a plan and maybe not go too crazy. So if you're just looking at teams that are desperate out of the contenders, it's really Milwaukee in the East. Philly will wait a year. They bought a year with Daryl. It's Milwaukee in the East.

I don't see anyone in the West. I don't think one contender is like, we got to make a move. I think everybody's going to be pretty careful. Don't you think? Oh, totally. Now, that move. I think everybody's going to be pretty careful. Don't you think? Oh, totally. Now, that's why I think Phoenix is maybe a little, there's a little desperation to

be good. Desperation to add to it, but they got to worry about the Booker thing because the worst kept secret in the league is Booker already wants out of there. And if it's another bad season, I actually think that could get ugly. But this is why oklahoma city is actually aligned pretty well here i mean think about this they still ended up with the

fifth best record and tied actually with houston but then obviously was was the five seed as opposed to houston be the four seed i've been told that that paul is going, um, like they're not going to just send Chris Paul somewhere that sucks and screw Chris Paul. He'll have some sort of say he'll have some exactly, but think of how valuable Chris Paul is on the trade market right now. We've mentioned that there's an, the, the pie chart of buyers versus sellers is so heavily weighted towards buyers because you have bad teams that all think they're buyers because they think they're this close. And I'm not saying Chris Paul is going to end up on one of those. But if we don't have enough of a market of potential trade candidates as far as players, if we know Paul is going to be traded and he's still really good and it's only two years left. And I know it's a monster number and that might get back

to your original point of like, okay, but how many places could he actually land? I don't know if we start doing three teamers here and moving stuff around and somebody's taking on somebody else's contract

with their own cap space. Although there's just not a ton of cap space out there. I think Paul, it's funny. Paul goes from a, a bit of a dump for another massive contract in Westbrook.

It wasn't a bit of a dump. They had to throw in two first routers. That was a dump for another massive contract in Westbrook. It wasn't a bit of a dump. They had to throw in two first-rounders. That was a dump. Think about that. You had to give up two first-rounders to take on Westbrook's contract with the extra year. Well, now we know what happened, though. We should have known what happened ahead of time.

Who says no if you get the Utah GM and the Atlanta GM on the line together and you say, hey, guys, I thought of a trade. Capella and Atlanta 6 for Utah's pick and go bear. You guys figure it out. I'm going to hang up now. I think I need a little bit more if I'm Utah, even though I'm scared to death.

Really? You're getting a six pick. You're getting a six pick at Capella. Do I have to remind, do I have to send you a link to this draft again? I think I would do it. I would try to get out of Gobert. I'm worried about paying Gobert.

I absolutely. And it's, it's just because he's not, I mean, look at that Denver series. And one more, you're like, can I max him now? Can I max him at halftime?

And then at the end of another game, you go, oh wait, this is why I'm freaked out about this. And I worry about Capella without Harden.

Hmm. No, I like the, I like the thought of him on Utah. Just everybody running around, not asking for post-ups. Yeah, and some rim runs, stuff like that.

All right. Russillo's podcast you can listen to. Can I ask you one question? Yeah. If Tyler Hero's in this draft, how many players are you taking ahead of him? Knowing what we know now or last year's version? No, no, no.

You can't. I'd say knowing what you know now. I think he's the number one pick. I think you're right. I don't think it's crazy. I don't think it's crazy. Well, here's how we know. Golden State calls Miami right now and says,

I'll give you the number two pick for Tyler Harrow. What does Miami say? They hang up. What does Minnesota say? Or hang up. What does Minnesota say if my, if, or what Minnesota calls Miami and says,

number one pick for hero, let's just call it in the league. What does Miami do? I think they hang up. That's how sad this draft is. Or how amazing Tyler Hero is. Maybe it's a little above. Well, same thing with Wendell Carter, right? I think a guy both of us like this draft is. Or how amazing Tyler Hero is. Maybe it's a little of both.

Well, same thing with Wendell Carter, right? I think a guy both of us like who has not, he's had some injuries. They didn't use him the right way at all. They didn't use him the right way. He's had injuries, but they're not, it's almost like they're trying to fuck him up. There's a real case that he might be good. And if they called Golden State and said, we'll give you Wendell

Carter for the number two pick, I actually think Golden State would have to do that because I'd like him more than anyone in this draft. And if they called Minnesota and said the same thing, I think I would do that if I was Minnesota. That's where I may push back. I think I'd like him more than anyone in this draft. I might push back.

I think I'd like to see a little bit more of the Duke Wendell Carter at the NBA level before I'm ready to give the number one pick for him because the other argument would be is there's still going to be somebody from this draft. I mean, I don't think we're going to have a repeat of 20 years ago. There's a good chance like a couple guys would be pretty good. But they're probably going to be not top three guys.

It's going to end up being like that 2013 draft where 10, 13, and 15 were like the key picks, right? Yeah. Yeah. And we've had drafts like that recently. All right. Listen to Rosillo on the Ryan Rosillo podcast. And I'm sure we'll check in. I'll either be on your podcast or you'll be on mine before the draft, which hopefully

happens. Are we doing a live show for the first round or whatever? I think we are, assuming the draft happens. Yeah. But I'll probably see you before then. Good to see you as always. All right. Thanks, Bill. Hey, not that long ago, going out with friends was a little too complicated. Used to worry about where you'd go, what you'd look like, who you'd invite. Now, getting together for a beer with your closest friends, not that complicated. These days,

it actually feels more like you should be yourself with your friends, hop on a Zoom, do a little distance thing. Maybe that's the way it always should have been. As the original light beer, Miller Lite has always believed this. That's what Miller Time is all about. As you know, you've heard me talk about this, Miller Lite, my favorite beer dating back to the late 80s. It's just always been in my life. They even got involved with athletes, had some cool posters. Whether you're toasting in person or you're cheersing from afar, Miller Lite has always been about bringing you and your friends together for Miller Time. Miller Lite, great taste with only 96 calories and 3.2 carbs. However, you and your friends are enjoying Miller Time, you can have the original light beer delivered by going

to millerlite.com forward slash BS and find the delivery options near you. Celebrate responsibly, Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, 96 calories and 3.2 carbs per 12 ounces. All right, we're taping this at one o'clock Pacific time on election night. So this might be the last time Wesley Morris is happy for months and months on end. I didn't want to go there. We wanted to talk about movies and TV shows because when we get through this election, assuming it turns out favorably for a lot of people and they move away from it and they're like, you know what? It's time for me to start catching up on some stuff. And there's been a lot of interesting stuff that's come out. Wesley Morris, my former Grantland colleague, Pulitzer Prize winner now of the New York Times, including

one of my favorite TV shows of the last 10 years, and in my opinion, the best limited TV series I've ever seen, The Queen's Gambit. The Queen's Gambit on Netflix. It fucking took the championship belt from me. What did you think of that show?

Hold on. What gets my championship belt? Yeah. So here are the nominees. So you think going way, way back. So it's a miniseries, right? I went straight back to V. That's how far back I went. Right. So you have to do that. You have to do what was the one

that the battle, the HBO battle, Generation Kill? The Corner. The Corner's one. Then you go This Decade, The Night Of. You do Big Little Lies. You have all the British shows. What was that show with the guy from Game of Thrones where he's trying to find a terrorist?

That show was really good, whatever that show was called. Nikolai Koster-Waldau or whatever that is. No, no, no. The guy... Man, God. The guy who died in season one or season two. The guy who died in the Red Wedding.

The son. Everybody died in the Red Wedding. I don't know. People are like, that show. Yeah, that show. People out there know. I thought this was the best seven-episode show I've ever seen. If you want to, okay, this is a very good distinction among the weight belts.

So there's the heavyweight, there's the welterweight, etc., etc., etc. Seven episodes, I got to think about what a seven episode miniseries, limited series is. But I mean, Watchmen for me is a high watermark. How many episodes was that?

I believe, I want to say eight or nine. I thought that was ten. eight or nine. I thought that was ten. Yeah, right. So it's Watchmen's in there too then. For me, I mean, I don't want to speak for you. No, for me too. Okay. Damn it. Now I have to think

about this some more. I don't like this show better than Watchmen. I do not. But I do think, do you want to tell me how you got me to watch it? So I'll tell you how I got to watch it. Friday night, looking for anything to watch, stuck in the house

for the 199th straight day or whatever it is. And just flicking through and they show those little previews on Netflix. And I remember somebody wrote on The Ringer about it and I heard a little buzz,

but I watched a preview of the little girl trying to enter the chess tournament. I've always loved chess. I'm a little buzz, but I watched a preview of the little girl trying to enter the chess tournament. I've always loved chess. I'm a searching Bobby Fischer guy. Uh-huh. You sighed. You sighed.

No, no. I'm like, what's this? And we just kind of, my wife and I and my daughter, we just kind of rolled the dice. Uh-huh. And five hours later, still watching. It was like midnight.

I'm like, oh, can we back out the whole series? It was like crack. so that's how you got me to watch it which was basically I was I told you I don't want to watch this and I challenge you I said just watch two and if you keep going you keep going yes um I said I will do this you know I'm I I'm not a real big binger, right? Like I can go two episodes and

then stop, watch a bunch of other things, do some reading, I don't know, make some phone calls, cook for myself, and then go back and watch some more a couple of days later. I don't like ingesting things in one sitting, but there are a bunch of things that you wanted to talk about. So I had a few days to watch them. So I watched this in pretty much a day. Yeah. And it's very good. The last three episodes are fantastic.

I mean, it's the kind of show that you, I would never, I don't like the, well, you got to stick around for season four or episode four. Um, but this is one of those shows where it's, it's a lit, if you understand that it's limited, it kind of gives you a sense of, of, of the proportion in terms of like what you can, like you just watch the whole thing. You just can't, you can't quit after four episodes if it's just going to end forever after seven. Well, the thing that struck me, it's so meticulously done. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

It's just like so high level. The acting's great. Every little piece of it. And it's, you know, set in the 1950s and 1960s, but doesn't they have a wide shot of Mexico city at one point. And you're like, how the fuck did they do that? I remember that shot. Fantastic. Um, so, you know, I like your weight class thing. I don't feel like, I feel like Watchmen is almost like a super middleweight. It's a one season, but it's 10 episodes. This was like a middleweight.

It's almost like different, different, or maybe this is a welterweight and Watchmen's middleweight. Cause that was 10 episodes. Right. Maybe it's like that. Watchmen, Watchmen is nine. So I guess if you do it by like the number of episodes, like,

I mean, cause you know, some, some limited series and miniseries, you only have to have two, I think to be considered a, a miniseries. So what's rich man,

poor man and roots. Those are like super, super heavy. It's, I mean, roots. Come on. I rewatched Roots recently for this book.

And Roots is shockingly, it's still good. Is it really? There's some cheesy things. What was it, like 1976? 77. Wow. And there's some cheesy parts of it, but it still holds up as a, like it moved me, Roots.

I mean, the end still pisses you off because you can't believe that nobody's going to whip this white guy. Nobody's going to whip this guy back. But if you also think about what that was for TV, there's never going to be another thing like Roots where all of the sort of reparative energy and restorative justice that a television network can or a production can put to work, because it wasn't really ABC. It was more like the producers who got this thing made and cast. They took all of that energy and they used like 20 years of television history from the standpoint of white people to like make amends for like various injustices. I mean, ultimately we're just talking about entertainment, but as optics and symbolism, the idea that you had, you know, 20 years of holy white people playing the worst

white people in the history of America who weren't also elected officials, although there is one bad Senator. Uh, you've just got like, you know, Mike Brady for hate. Um, was it Ed Asner in there? Ed Asner, but he's not a bad guy. He's a slave trader. He's a merchant who comes to realize he's in the slave trade and is like, oh no, oh no. Well, I'm old enough to remember Roots

because I was like six or, so it was 77. I was either seven or eight. Right. And this was when TV had that outsized importance because we didn't have anything yet. We didn't even have video games yet at this point. So 30 million people were watching everything. Roots felt like the biggest thing across everything for the two weeks it was on,

whatever. It was the only thing anyone talked about. It was all over the place. It was on every magazine. We had to talk about it in school. It just, it dominated for two weeks. Everybody watched it, even like little kids. And I don't think there will ever be a miniseries like that because I don't think there, it was bigger than a Super Bowl audience now. Yeah, it's still- You're talking like 50, 60 million people watching it

as it's being shown. It's still the, it's the number one, there's some technicalities in terms of where it is, one, two, three, but it's definitely the number one. There's some technicalities in terms of where it is one, two, three. But it's definitely the biggest. I think the finale is still the number one highest rated television event in the history of television. And the series itself, I think, is number three as a collected group of watched hours of television. Well, I think you solved this with the weight classes thing because there's a big difference between four episodes, seven episodes, nine episodes, 13 episodes for what you can kind of do. I mean, technically the Queen's Gambit, every episode was an hour or even a little bit more than an hour. It's like a dense

seven plus hours. I thought the lead actress is fantastic. Okay. And I just wasn't expecting that because that was The Lady from the Nun, which is a Simmons family favorite horror movie. I was like, wow.

The Lady from the Nun and the Queen's Gambit? Queen's Gambit? What's happening? And they had a Game of Thrones guy in there. It wasn't like an all-star cast. Who was that kid

on Game of Thrones? His face looks so familiar, but I could not figure out which character he was. Right. You want to say it's Theon, but it wasn't. It was like somebody who was like Theon's cousin. Yeah. I don't know who it was, but he did look very familiar. Cause I looked him up and I mean, again, like people are going to like throw their headphones across the room because we can't remember who this kid is, but he looked, I mean, I know he was on Game of Thrones. He looked very familiar, but I couldn't, he wasn't Joffrey. He was like, he was like busted Joffrey.

Well, anyway. Yeah, Joffrey's brother. Can we talk about, I want to talk about Anya Taylor-Joy, the woman who plays this character, the lead character. Because. A.K.A. Anya Taylor-Joy from The Nun. Yes. And for me, wasn't she also in that Shyamalan movie?

She's been in a couple things, yeah. The first of the second of the Glass trilogy, whatever. Anyway, I really like her. There is a problem, though, for me. Okay. And it simultaneously kept me watching and distracted me. And it's that now I'm going to say this and I don't know if it's going to blow your mind or make you roll your eyes, but between the wigs and the eyes. All I saw in certain angles was Emma Stone. My wife said the same thing.

I could not get past it. My wife asked me if they were, she made me look it up to see if they were related. Because she doesn't look like that in anything else. In the Shyamalan movies, she doesn't look like that at all.

Yeah. I haven't seen The Nun, so I'll put that on my list of things to remember to do. But on this show, there was something about her that she has a star quality that just reminded me of Emma Stone's.

And I feel horrible feeling this way because this woman is giving a great performance that I went in and out of because I was thinking about what it would have meant for Emma Stone to do it. And then there were times when I just felt like, I'm watching Emma Stone. I'm just going to have to accept that because this thing is so good that I'm just going to have to move past it. Not fair to her, but what can you do? Well, I give it a grade of A.

It sounds like you're in the A- range. B plus? B plus, A minus? I'm like B plus. We can talk about some things that bugged me, but... We don't have to spoil it. No, no, no, no. I mean, I think it's good enough to just keep going with. Talk about what we liked about it. Such a fun

binge. To me, like six, seven episodes is the perfect number for this. And I got to say like, so I'm watching The Undoing at the same time, which we're going to talk about quickly, and waiting every week for the next episode. There's something fun about that, right? It's like, oh yeah, this is coming up. At the same time, if The Undoing was available all at once, I'd already be done with it. I would have gone through. I can already tell. You would need like a lot of paper towels

to wipe the grease off your hands. A lot of coffee. Kidman, who's just, she has a way of basically, even if she's playing a character, being able to summon some baggage for that character that you can feel in the performance, which I think is a really hard thing to pull off.

The Big Little Lies performance, that first season is one of the best performances I've seen anybody give in any medium ever. Did she win? She won the Emmy for that, right? I believe she won the Emmy. Yeah, she was unbelievable in that. And this is a person who I would say I would think that I thought I saw her give, I thought I'd seen every great Nicole Kidman performance. And she gets to Big Little Lies and she finds yet something else. And I think that, you know, we don't, there's a, there are a couple,

there's a couple of things happening that make her exciting and that like make this show, I know the show is going to be hard for me to watch because it's just not going to have it for her and she's got to find it somehow. And that's like psychology that is built into the work. And then there's a psychology, I still feel like she kind of was underrated for so long that there's so much catching up that, that, you know, are we talking about the industry? I don't know. Does she need more? I think she didn't get enough at the beginning. Um, like she's, she was a really good speech giver that days, the thunder speech that she gives Tom Cruise,

you know, the out of control incontrol speech. Days of Thunder is good. Days of Thunder. Days of Thunder is loaded, too. Duvall's in it. Michael Rooker. It's got a great cast. But she... I don't know. There's just something about her. Well, you know what happened. Cruise was like... If she's an athlete,

Cruise was her torn ACL. Oh, interesting. She never meets Cruise. It's a much more interesting 90s for her. She's doing... interesting. That's a great. She never meets Cruz. It's a much more interesting 90s for her. She's doing, I think there's a whole like,

thriller side of her that she would have tapped into. You know, she did it in Malice. I thought she was good in Malice. She's good in Malice.

She's good in Malice. But that movie is sort of overshadowed by Alec Baldwin's, that great speech Alec Baldwin gives. And just Alec Baldwin going for it for two hours. Yeah, that was, I mean, he's so good in that movie. He really is.

But she's also good in it. But I think that this is a great question. Like, what happens to her if she doesn't meet Tom Cruise? Well, there's a cynical answer, but let's just stay in the industry-oriented, non-cynical answer. And I think that I don't know what movies they put her in as a star, right?

Because this is at a point where Julia Roberts is Julia Roberts. Sandra Bullock, I mean, to be uncharitable to Sandra Bullock. Maybe she might be Boogie Nights in the Julianne Moore part and taking swings like that. Yeah, but she would have been too young for that part. I mean, I don't know. She probably would have been a roller girl.

Yeah, she was kind of between roller girl and Amber Waves. Yeah, I mean- She's a mother to all who needs mothering. Right, I mean, I think that Nicole Kidman, it worked out for Nicole Kidman because I think that there was, I don't know if she would put it this way, but like,

I wonder if there was a hunger in her to prove that she wasn't just this famous person's, she wasn't a, she wasn't this, she wasn't a real, Tom Cruise's wife. Right. She wasn't like a,

what is the, she's not the meal ticket, but he's the meal ticket, right? Well, she did that, she did that Bomback movie too. That was another one that she, but that not the meal ticket, but he's the meal ticket, right? Well, she did that. She did that bomb back movie too. That was another one that she,

but that was after. Yeah. After, but I mean that she's done this a few times with parts that she, these damaged characters that seem like they have it all together and then it falls apart. She's basically like the Michael Douglas of all those Michael Douglas parts when it seemed like he had it together and unraveled. And she's doing the female version of that.

But she starts out that way. Like she doesn't, like she, the damage is usually pretty clear from the outset. That's fair. Yeah. And, you know, did you see her in The Human Stain? Yeah. Not a good movie, but, and I don't even know if that performance works,

but she gave it. What about her in The Invasion of the Body Snatchers? The 19th sequel they made to that movie. It's called like Invasion? Oh, yeah. Okay. She's pretty good in that.

I don't mind that movie. The, what is the Sidney Pollack movie with her and Sean Penn? Is it the, it's not the, Oh, it's like the, oh, it's the,

Gunman, Professional. Yeah, something like that. One of those, yeah. I'm just going to look it up. There's a great scene where she gets on the bus and it turns into a science fiction movie because Nicole Kidman's on an MTA bus. That would ever happen.

Or if it did happen, I didn't get a news alert um that nicole kidman was on the bus um but i think she's just good in all kinds of things what is that movie the interpreter oh yeah the interpreter i like that movie i think your big little eyes point is important i thought that was an amazing performance and it was sold to everybody as this group effort with, you know, Reese and Laura Dern and, and Shailene Woodley.

And she was like by far the best person in it. I recommend the undoing. I'm a fan. Okay. So here's what I would say. Overweight, overweight, not quite looking as good,

but still has that little charm. Hugh Grant, who might be up to stuff, the New York city private school stuff. Great use of nudity in the first episode. I really appreciate when nudity becomes a plot. Yeah, I didn't... That sort of made me want to know where this movie,

where this show is going. But as far as Nicole Kidman goes, can I just say real quick, she had an amazing 2000s. She had the best 2000s of any actor. Any actor in the movies. Like she had a really good, I'd say from Eyes Wide Shut,

which is 99, but she goes straight from that, Moulin Rouge, The Others, Birthday Girl, she's very good in, The Hours, Dogville,

Dogville being one of her top five performances Human Stain Cold Mountain my favorite Nicole Kidman is a movie star performance Birth one of my top five

favorite Nicole Kidman performances period The Interpreter she's really good Bewitched terrible movie she's bad in it not her fault

Fur she's really interesting in Fur I didn't see that one. You're the invasion. Margot at the Wedding. Margot at the Wedding. That was the bomb back one. Australia. The second greatest

Nicole came up with. Well, actually, Moulin Rouge is number two, I would say, after Cold Mountain. Then Australia. Not a great movie, but she's amazing in it. She's in Nine. She's really good in Rabbit Hole. She's really good in that Adam Sandler movie, Just Go With It, but she's amazing in it. She's in Nine. She's really good in Rabbit Hole. She's really good in that Adam Sandler movie, Just Go With It, where she and Jennifer Aniston

just are in the same space at the same time in an Adam Sandler movie. That movie's unbelievable. That's one of my kids' favorite movies. Sandler gets a bad rap. He's actually had some good ones. Just Go With It, good movie. I stand by it.

I disagree. It's terrible, but it's great to see. No actually had some good ones. Just go with it. Good movie. I stand by it. I disagree. It's terrible. No. It's good terrible. We're in a location. There's weird, crazy people in it. The singing scene is fantastic. Ding, ding, ding. I was going to say, that is one of my favorite scenes

in any movie, regardless of quality. I will just end this. Let's leap forward three years after Just Go With It, or two years after Just Go With It, and just say The Paperboy. If you've not seen The Paperboy, which Bill, have you seen this movie, by the way?

When it came out, I haven't seen it since. I mean, that is just one of the all-time great rollercoaster rides of crazy that you're ever going to see. And she is so committed to Lee Daniels craziness. Everybody in that movie is, but especially her. Jesus Christ. She's so good. Anyway. So we recommend The Undoing. We're going to take a break and come back with some more. Hey, 2020 has changed the world of sports. You've seen some teams adapt. They've made changes in their stadiums and arenas.

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Then, ZipRecruiter's matching technology finds the most qualified ones for your job and actively invites them to apply. It's no wonder four to five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. For a variety of industries, ZipRecruiter can help you find the right people for your roles, even with the new rules. ZipRecruiter, a hiring game changer. That's why you need it to try it for free right now at ZipRecruiter.com slash BS, ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. Don't miss your chance. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. All right, we're going to talk about some movies that came out. We'll start with On the Rocks. I'm just going to go on the record and say, I always enjoy Sofia Coppola's movies, even when I don't think they're good.

I like her perspective. I like the nuances she puts in. I never am mad that I sat through the movie, whether I think it was a classic or one I'd watch again. That's whatever depends on the movie. Lost in Translation, I thought was just iconic and can't wait to do it on the rewatchable someday. I don't really understand the point of this movie other than let's try to get Bill Murray an Oscar. I think she went into this whole thing with, I'm try to get Bill Murray an Oscar. I think she went into

this whole thing with, I'm going to get Bill Murray an Oscar. Start there. Write this awesome part. I'll make it a father-daughter movie. The part's going to be awesome. And then they just kind of started filming. I don't

understand this movie at all. Everything you said about Sofia Coppola, I agree with. this movie at all. I, I, Sophia, everything you said about Sophia Coppola, I agree with. I'm a supporter. I, I'm all in. I,

but, but this is a flawed movie, period. It's worse than a flawed movie. It's, it's, it's like a, it's like a non movie. Yeah.

I feel like all the beats come from television. All the, this is not a, I don't know what I'm knocking here. I'm just saying that this is such a simple, this can be solved in 22 minutes of television. Right, right. problem. And that's not good when, if I'm sitting there thinking this about a 96-minute movie. I just didn't believe any of it. I didn't understand any of the relationships. There are shots in this movie that make no sense to me. And I feel like she has lost her nerve, Sofia Coppola. I feel like something,

I feel like she wants to be doing something that matters, but she isn't quite sure. She does not, I don't know if she's on Twitter. I don't know what her social media relationship is. But I feel like she is nervous about people misunderstanding what her intents are.

You think the internet's in her head? Something. I think something's in her head. Like there's this movie. Just, okay. We need to really just let's talk about the movie itself first. This is a movie about a married couple where a black married couple, Rashida Jones is the wife

and Damon Wayans is the, is the, sorry, Marlon Wayans is the husband. And Marlon Wayans, you know, he's a busy guy, always going on business trips. And at some point she gets into her, into her head.

She's got, they've got two kids. They live in a really amazing loft in Soho on Worcester Street. The apartment is the star of the movie. But anyway, and she knows that, by the way, because you keep getting these terrible establishing shots

of the outside of the building that tell you nothing about what's going on inside except we're about to go inside. Except you know what about establishing shots that doesn't make any sense to me is, we go right inside after you tell us you're outside.

And if you've been somewhere else for a little while, that makes sense. But the place, the movie only has two settings. Yeah. Why do we need the establishing shots to tell us we're in the apartment? Anyway, so the husband's going away on business trips. She gets in her head the idea that he might be cheating on her.

So I guess this is supposed to be basically female midlife crisis for somebody who has kids? Yes. I guess that's what she's going for. It's like, I'm in my late 30s. I'm not as smoking hot as I used to be. I have these two small kids and I'm worried that somebody is going to steal my husband. Yeah. Is that the angle of this movie? Basically the character that Rashida Jones is playing as a writer, who's got writer's block

and terrible outfits. My wife was furious the whole time. Why are they doing this to her? What's up with these sweaters? dresses like this however friends that had an intervention my wife was furious there is but you know i don't know if you're having this as you as you're consuming all this all this visual culture like especially tv and movies where like people are out doing things you know in the old way before the pandemic and you're just like what are you doing without a mask don Don't touch them. Yes. Or like, that's a hug.

Oh my God. What is that? Yeah. Like there's a scene where Marlon Wayans and Rashida Jones go out to dinner and the woman who comes over to like bring them their menu is the most glamorous person I have seen in a year. And she just got this amazing flower dress on and it's tailored perfectly. And all she's doing is dropping off menus. and she just got this amazing flower dress on, and it's tailored perfectly,

and all she's doing is dropping off menus. And I'm just like, I want to be in that restaurant where that woman is because that is missing from my life right now. I live in New York City where this is a, this can be a regular occurrence for me on like a Tuesday. It's one of the best things of living in New York City. Not anymore. Not anymore.

Anyway, I don't, I didn't believe it. I did not believe this movie. Worse than Anyway, I didn't believe it. I did not believe this movie. Worse than that, I didn't care. Well, you assume it's going to pay off at the end. And spoiler alert, doesn't really feel like it does. I also, look, there's two answers to this question, and I don't know what the answer is. Either Rashida Jones couldn't carry a movie like this,

or the part was poorly written and she didn't have a chance. And it's one or the other, but Bill Murray's like blowing her off the screen in their scenes. And in general, like I just didn't have a feel. All right, let's say, I don't know. Let's say Rachel McAdams is in this part.

That was, Fennessy and I were talking about like who would you put in this movie that like, that just would make it, you know, basically like throwing a chainsaw and hot tub. It would just be totally different. Somebody like rich McAdams, Kerry Washington.

Somebody who I feel like would, would just be more, I'd be more wondering as I'm staring at them on the screen, what are they thinking? What's going through their head? Are they going to snap? And I just was never really there

with the Rashida Jones character. I don't know if it was her fault or the writing. And then you have these scenes where like, Bill Murray getting out of the speeding ticket is an incredible five-minute scene. And you think like, all right, so this movie that's like... Wait, incredible in a good way? We need to talk about this scene. I was in, I was in on that scene because she just

like, basically it was like, I need to let Bill Murray cook for four minutes. And he just did Bill Murray stuff. And I'm like, the movie's alive. And then it's like, oh, the movie's not alive anymore. We got to talk about this. Okay, go. But wait, I want to answer your Rashida Jones question. And I think part of the answer is in this scene where they get pulled over in his speeding convertible by the NYPD. And we should just say, just to make clear for anybody who has not watched this yet,

Bill Murray is Rashida Jones' father in this film. And she is basically confided to him that she thinks that Marlon Wayans is cheating. Yeah. And he takes this and kind of runs with it. I don't know if Sofia Coppola is mining her own life for this. But I can imagine a more interesting movie in which Francis Ford Coppola and Sofia Coppola like run around the world trying to catch whoever Sofia Coppola is married to in infidelity.

But in the meantime, we get these two. And I would say to answer your question about Rashida Jones, the writing is not there for her. It's not that, because what I do with movies like this, where you are gradually aware that one of the people in this comedy is not going to get to be as funny as the other person. You always- That's funny. She's literally unfunny. Right, right.

But you try to figure out, is it the actor's problem or is it the writing? And my two classic examples of the solutions for that, I mean, there are many, let's just go through some examples where like, and it's always the woman. It's never the man that has this problem. The men are all, they're always, you know, our great comedians never have this problem with at least the material and the ability to sort of take material and sublimate it into something greater than it probably is on the page. But women don't get to do that. And it's not because they can't.

So here's some examples in which women can, and this isn't quite sublimation. This is just great writing, but let's just go there. Um, Julie Haggerty in, um, lost in America.

Uh, she's as funny as he is. And she's got more surprises up her sleeve than he does. The writing is totally there for her. And she is there for the writing to, to let her go where she needs to go. Terry Garr in everything. Um, Terry Garr is the great was, you know, she's the greatest second banana the eighties had in the top four Letterman guest on top of it.

Yes. Bar none. Or bar three, I guess. Geena Davis in anything where anybody lets her be funny, notably Quick Change, a movie she did not have to be funny in. Movie doesn't entirely work,

but it's not because the writing isn't there for her. She's... I want to redo her career. Even in Fletch, we had this argument when we did Frutz Rewatchables. If you just switch the parts and make Geena Davis the lead and you just make her Mrs. Underhill, the movie's way better.

And Chris Ryan got so upset. He's like, no, Dana Willard Nicholson. And we're like, no, Chris. You kidding me? Gina Davis, it's a better movie. Sorry. In Tootsie. She's in Tootsie for like a nanosecond.

Yeah. And she's so good in her scene. Yeah. Also great Terry Garra movie. Also great Bill Murray movie. Right. Tootsie, great American movie. If you've not seen Tootsie, oh my God,

I wish I could watch it next to you wherever you are. Tootsie did really well in the awards and all that stuff that year too. That was one of the big movies in 1982. I haven't watched in a while. I'd be interested to see with how uptight everybody is in 2020, if there were things in there that would make people upset. No, I've watched it recently. It holds up as a perfect, perfect, perfect movie. Anyway, Rashida Jones. I love that movie. Yeah. I feel like she does not get a chance.

This is what happened to Kerry Washington in that Chris Rock movie, I Think I Love My Wife. Oh my God. I just watched that like four weeks ago. And she's, I mean, she's trying to put up 47 points, 15 rebounds and 17 assists. And she's playing with G up 47 points, 15 rebounds, and 17 assists, and she's playing with G-leaguers. It's tough.

Airball. Yeah. Airball. She's going for it in that movie, though. Yes, yes. But she tries. But Gina Torres is the real victim in that movie, writing-wise. Gina Torres has no humor, nothing to do.

I hate movies where you have a great comedian and the only person allowed to be funny is the great comedian. It's the Mariah Carey music video win fan problem where like everybody in a Mariah Carey music video is like, like in a, like a fun house mirror. And she is like looking slim and sexy while everybody else is like tubby, not that well lit. You know, I love Mariah Carey. She's one of my favorite human beings, but she did rig the videos. She did rig the videos in her favor. Well, it's like the old move of the people who have weddings, but they make sure there's no bridesmaid who tops them and that they pick. Yeah. So I just feel like anytime you've got a good actor or an interesting person opposite one of our great comedians, I mean, is there a woman who was as funny as Eddie Murphy in a movie that he was also in? Well, my girl, Lisa Eckebacher, whatever her name is. I always enjoyed her a couple of scenes, but she's throwing herself

at Eddie in the bed. Beverly Hills cop. Oh, yeah. Axel wants no part of it. He's not horny at all. Didn't want that. Did not. Did not.

Was not interested. He's still mourning his dead friend who he's in love with. Yeah, look. Rashida Jones, I don't know. If you put a major star in this part, I think it's probably, maybe it's like when Reese Witherspoon

was in that James L. Brooks softball movie and it's probably, maybe it's like when Reese Witherspoon was in that James L. Brooks softball movie and it's just, she was going for it. Couldn't really get it done. But there's another one where the writing was there for her. It just was, the writing wasn't good. Like Holly Hunter and broadcast news.

Another one. That's another one. Doesn't need to be funny. That Melanie Griffith and working girl. Like you can just go through all of these movies where, I mean, you know, Harrison Ford is not a great comedian.

So we don't recommend this movie other than it's always worth it to watch a Sofia Coppola movie. But we're basically prepared to be slightly disappointed. I did not like the last 15 minutes at all. I kind of couldn't believe the last 15 minutes. And my mom was so upset because I

told my mom, like, new Sofia Coppola movie, you know, because she loves Lost in Translation. And she was, like, furious after. Let's talk about the cop scene real quick. Okay. So they get in this car. They go for a drive. The cops pull them.

Like, they go for a crazy drive because, like, Bill Murray is trying to chase Marlon Wayans' car because he thinks that they think that they're like, he's in a cab with the woman that this coworker that he's allegedly having an affair with. But he's in like a $200,000 in 1964 Porsche going through all the New York city potholes. It makes no sense. Right. I don't know how that works.

He just gets so rich. He doesn't give up. He must have another one somewhere. He can just throw that out and get a new one. Anyway, the police pull him over. They are very classic NYPD. Like, just get like, you know, very aggressive, you know, license and registration, please.

And he is just proceeds to charm his way out of the ticket by conveniently knowing the father of the arresting officer. Or like, he's not arresting an officer. This is his Oscar clip scene, just so you know. We'll be watching the Oscars on Zoom and they will be showing this clip, so be careful. Well, I'm not watching the Oscars if that happens. Anyway, this scene is

supposed to be a charming, funny, ha-ha scene where Bill Murray talks his way out of a speeding ticket or whatever other ticket they're trying to give him, too. I don't know how many things he's guilty of in that scene, but maybe three. Anyway, he then, the cop is charmed by how much Bill Murray knows about the cop's family.

He's very charming. Right. And so when this, okay, I'm on board with all of this, right? I don't like it, but I'm curious to see how Sofia Coppola handles it, right? Because you have to remember in the car of this whole encounter is his black daughter who is sitting there not saying anything. And when the scene is over, this is how you know the writing is not there for an actor or like the writing doesn't even know who the actor or the character is necessarily. So when the scene is

over, Bill Murray is like, you know, giving like lights up as a movie star, charms this cop out of giving him a ticket, if not worse, and gets back into the car. And Rashida Jones' only line in response to all of this shenanigans is, you must, what a charmed life you must lead or something like that or it must be nice having your life. This is A, her father. End scene.

Right. This, right, that's the, that's the end of the scene. This is a man that's been in her life her entire life, like more or less. Like she should know what he's going to do when he gets out of the car she knows i mean it's your father or or let's say this is set in 2020 or at least 20 like anytime after 2015 wasn't wouldn't this be an opportunity to sort

of like give your your like obnoxious super privileged white dad a stern talking to i know that's not a thing that like a light comedy is supposed to be doing, but you have to remember, this is also a movie that is taking marriage somewhat seriously enough to have her and her dad creepily pursue her husband, maybe having an affair with somebody he works with. So if you're going to throw this scene in here, why not just give it everything you can throw at it? But she doesn't have anything. The charm for her, Sofia Coppola, I mean, is that you've got this movie star who can charm his way out of life with the police.

Now, maybe we're supposed to intuit from that that this is what it's like. This is how hard it is for white people to be pulled over by the police. I don't even think they're going for that. I don't think they're going for that at all. Can I tell you my first crush ever was Rashida Jones's mom? Peggy Lipton? Yeah, Mod Squad.

My first favorite show. In love with Peggy Lipton. Yeah, the late, great... The late, great Peggy Lipton. All right, we don't need to talk about that movie anymore. We got two more. But Rashida Jones, I wish the best for you. Me too.

She's really likable. I just thought it just wasn't a good part. And I don't know if it was her fault or the writing or both. She is funny on Black AF. She's the only thing I laughed at on that whole terrible ass show. Sorkin movie we got to talk about. I'd rather talk about On the Rocks. Just quickly.

Give me your 60 seconds on the Chicago 7. Oh my, well, 60 seconds, I can give you one. Why? Why?

I don't understand. If, if you were to ask me what is the one subject that Aaron Sorkin, how do I put this? What is the one American event that epitomizes the worst liberal impulses of Aaron Sorkin

in the least elastic possible setting? I'm not sure this is making any sense, but like, no, I get it. What is the American event that is the most obviously Sorkin-esque in its, in its like corruption, incompetence, and courtroom scenes and, and moral stakes a lot like via the courtroom.

I would probably say the trial of the Chicago seven as an event. And I was, I have always been like quietly relieved that he never touched this because, you know, there are all these other aspects of American history and American life or like American subjects, right? Like the presidency is the thing he returns to over and over again.

But here he does the most obvious thing he can do and makes this movie. And he doesn't seem to have a real reason to have done it. Like, I don't know why this movie, I don't know what the sort of greater reason for him to attack this subject. And I do mean attack. When you're talking about I, I don't know why.

The people in the trial of the Chicago 7 were kids? Right. They weren't old? They were young people? I mean, a couple of the lawyers and stuff were old, but like Abby Hoffman, all those people, they were I don't know, 25 and under? Yep. Yep.

Sacha Baron Cohen is my age. Almost like 49. And then the guy from Succession I don't know how old he is but he's at least 40 Eddie Redmayne's 38 the Eddie Redmayne casting single handedly reduced the ceiling of this movie for me I thought he was completely overmatched

I have no idea why he was in it he's British he's too old and he did a shitty job in the movie He's British. He's too old. And he did a shitty job in the movie. It's, it's really like, it's the fucking perfect storm. He hit a grand, he hit for the triple crown of everything you don't want in this movie. That was the key part. I have to like Tom Hayden, but also have complicated feelings for him for this movie to work. The one who was great was Rylance as, uh, as William Kunstler, the lawyer. And he's actually doing a nuanced performance.

More importantly, he was the right age of the guy. Right. Right. Um, but I don't know. It was, it was a frustrating movie.

I was glad I watched, but I left it like, ah, well, I mean, this, it's one of those movies where like nothing works. Everybody is, it's one of those movies where like nothing works everybody is it's like um

this is the worst version of this is this is the worst kind of movie i've seen like this since lions for lambs remember that that robert ripper movie yeah with merle streep and tom cruise it's very important very important movie right veryy. It's one of the most embarrassing movies I've ever seen that is also so, like, part of the embarrassment is that it's such a liberal movie made by a person we all know is a liberal. It's like a right-minded, like, right-thinking, like, good, quote quote unquote, good person. But the sort of import of the material is so, it's so important to the person making the movie that they can't see straight. And so Redford is making a movie

that is all about his political ideology in many ways. And he can't, he just won't let any. We've talked about this for too long. The lines for, the lines for lamb should never be more than 30 seconds on a podcast. All right. So moving back to the,

to the Sorkin movie, I just think the thing that's embarrassing about, about the Chicago seven movie is that there's no countervailing force against Sorkin's, his righteous anger. and what's it like a few good men or the American president is that Rob Reiner in two of those cases and David Fincher in another are there to essentially provide some zig to his zag, right? Like Reiner is working in genres in the first two movies.

And, you know, because I don't think Sorkin is good at, he's not a good director for one thing, but he also needs somebody to like contain the movie somehow, right? Like to put it in either the box of the director's style, right? So, you know,

he needs like an Elton John to his Bernie Topin, right? Somebody who can make amazing music with pretty good lyrics, pretty good to if not great lyrics. But I don't think that was the problem with this movie though. You don't think it was also badly directed?

Well, I don't know if it was, would it have been better if it was Steven Soderbergh? Probably. But to me, the whole point of the movie is like it's this revolution that as a son of two people from this generation who were in the protest

and did the whole thing like this is what I grew up watching or listening to and there's no youth in this movie that was the thing that was amazing to me that's a great point it was like a bunch of older actors doing a stage play of the Chicago 7

where it's like I needed youth and energy for this because that's what this whole thing was about. This was the culmination of this whole era when you had all these

young music bands and Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young and people like that and they're all swept up in this cause and the judge represents you know, the old way of doing things

and he's just a flat out racist. And he sucks. He hates these people because they have long hair. Frank Langella plays him in the movie. And Frank Langella is pretty good. Here's the funny thing though. HBO made an awesome version of this in 87, I think. Oh, yeah.

And it was one of the first great TV movies they ever made. And when I was in high school, I watched it a bunch of times. I just loved it. Mandy Patinkin was Abby Hoffman. And even though he's a little too old, he was awesome. Robert Loggia was Kunstler. Pink Patinkin.

Kunstler or Kunstler? I probably said the wrong name. Kunstler. Kunstler, okay. But there's really good, Harris Ulin's in it. There's really good actors. And it's just a more effective treatment.

It's stuck in the courtroom. But still, I got to say, there's a whole generation that doesn't know about the Bobby Seale part. Oh, yeah. I mean, that part was really affecting. And I don't mind that he tried to make the movie, but I kind of wish he had just written it

and let somebody else cast it and maybe even direct it. I feel like the thing from, I mean, your point about the youth thing, I don't even know what to say about that, except you're totally right. There's something missing in this movie and it's like authenticity.

There's like a realness that is not working for me. And the idea that Joseph Gordon-Levitt is maybe the youngest person in the cast. By far. I think maybe Yahya Abdul-Mateen is, like, they're the youngest two people in the movie. So he's really good. And then his colleague who gets killed,

which is a pretty famous Black Panther death and a really good Google dive, because that guy, they just went in and shot that dude. Yeah. He's really good too. He's the guy from, was it Loose or one of those other ones? Something that came out last year. Which guy? His buddy who gets killed. Oh yeah, that guy was somebody. I watched this and it really went out of my head is the other thing. No, that guy's a good actor though.

Yeah, that's who it was. Kelvin Harrison. That was Kelvin Harrison? Yeah, and he's really good at that movie. I was so much more interested in the Bobby Seale, Kelvin Harrison side of this movie versus the people I was supposed to be caring about. So anyway, let's talk about a movie you loved.

I think you loved. Bad Hair? Yeah, I did like this movie a lot. This will be the one we... Let's end on this. I feel like I should say that... It's on Hulu, by the way, if you want to check it out.

It's on Hulu. The plot is pretty simple. We're in 1989. We're at a corporate-owned black entertainment television, BET-style music program network. And they're under the management. During the height of the Paula Abdul kind of music era when... Yeah.

Yes. It's like the queen of this era are Jodi watley and janet jackson great era i love this era one of my favorite like periods in all of american popular music got a little key sweat luther vandross on the other side there's just some great stuff going on guy is guy is like my favorite band at this point teddy riley's guy. Anyway, the goings on behind the scenes at this network involve Vanessa Williams basically coming in and taking over the programming division

of a company that is essentially owned by Dawson, Dawson's Creek's... Vanderbeek. Yeah, James Vanderbeek. Looked great. He looks, yes, I agree. Looked great.

Looked like he stepped right off the Dawson's Creek set. Just threw out a blazer and was in the movie. Looking fantastic. So is Vanessa Williams for that matter, even though she's got like a giant, I don't know what that is on her head. That's what the movie's about. So at some point there's an executive assistant.

There's a producer at this network who is hoping for a promotion. Vanessa Williams comes in and like cleans house essentially, but gives this, you know, aspiring producer some advice, which is stop wearing your hair natural. Um, you gotta, you gotta get a look that makes more sense for where this network is going and gives her some advice to like get her hair done. So she goes to the salon to like get her hair done. She's also got some residual hair trauma from getting her hair straightened.

Now, Bill, I have to ask you, well, let me finish the plot. So she goes and gets her hair done basically. And what that is in 1989 is getting a weave installed in your hair. You get somebody else's hair sewn into your own hair to get long, fancy, expensive-looking locks that essentially are, for our purposes, white or less black. But having a weave is itself a black experience.

It is somehow like adjacent, white adjacent, but not at all white. It's a fascinating thing we can talk about in a different show. So the hair is possessed and begins killing people. That's the movie. It's honestly one of these movies that is so creative, the setup, where you're just watching

it going the first 20 minutes, you're just like, how did somebody think of all this? What made them set it in 1989? There are these nuances to it that I was just really delighted by. Just like, how did somebody come up with this? How stoned did you have to be? Or how creative do you have to be to just map this out and then explain this to whoever is paying for it? So here's my idea. It's 1989. It's like a BAT type TV station. And this lady has hair trauma from early and now her hair is killing everyone.

I can't even imagine how this got made. And it was really good. Somebody at some network, I mean, whoever, this is a Hulu thing, Justin Simien, we should say. But I think Hulu bought it though. This was, I think, a movie that I think-

Oh, like a Sundance movie or something like that? I think Sorkin had the same issue where it was a movie for the big screen that got sold to a streamer. I would have loved to have seen this movie with an audience. I really would have liked- I was thinking that the whole time, this would have been such a good movie theater movie. Yeah, it would have been, it would have, because I think that there's something

Justin Simeon is the writer and the director. He is the guy behind dear white people, both the movie and the television show. He is such a wit. He is such a good director. director um he's a good writer and i think that so for for this movie for like 42 minutes is one of the smartest satires of american culture that i've ever seen especially once you factor in the question like the issue of race and, and class and, you know, and family essentially and beauty. It, it also really understands the milieu of 1980s music television, right? That there is a look.

And in order to have that, in order to be successful, you have to look like downtown Julie Brown or Jody Watley or pleasure principal era, Janet Jackson. Or even like Jay Pharaoh, who I thought was pretty good in this. Oh yeah.

He looks like big daddy cane. His hairdo is just perfect. It's like, so 1989. I loved it. He's he, he's good. And his costuming is great.

Whoever did the hair and costuming on the show. Bravo to you are this movie. Bravo to you. Yeah. I love that. I like that. The special effects were kind of campy and not like on this show. Bravo to you. Or this movie. Bravo to you. Yeah, I love that. I like that the special effects were kind of campy and not like The Conjuring. Right.

You know, where they spent like $7 million on making her hair kill people. It was just kind of... It was a little more low budget, which I think kind of fit in with the feel of the movie. Yeah. I mean, it's essentially a Japanese horror movie set at BET. Yeah. So you have all these... But it's funny because in the way that I don't always understand why the horror is happening in a Japanese or South Korean horror movie, I totally understand what the nature of the horror is in this film but i own i understand it because

i am a black person who has lived his entire life with black women and i understand the cosmetics industry in relation to them and so this isn't a mystery what the metaphor is for the hair and like why it's killing and like what it's about. And, you know, the sort of ideological argument against the sort of like augmented beauty that Black women put themselves through. It is taking a stand on what in certain Black households is a controversial issue. But I wonder, like, did you know that while you watched this?

Or was this like as mysterious to you? No, I did. I got it. Okay. I got that. You don't need me to explain to you. No, I did. It was interesting. It was a metaphor,

but it was like a next level of it where he knew that we knew it was the metaphor, so he actually went, I thought, deeper into it. My biggest issue was the lead actress so he actually went, I thought, deeper into it. My biggest issue was the lead actress was fine. I liked her. Oh, yeah. Let's talk about her.

I kept watching this whole movie thinking this is the movie I always wanted Issa Rae to be in. Oh, interesting. Because I think that part was, there's a funniness to it that I don't feel like she totally tapped into.

You had to feel almost like, it's a horror comedy, we should say. I don't know if we said that at the top. Right. Yeah. It's very funny. For 42 minutes,

it's very funny. I just would have, I still feel like there's a great Issa Rae movie that's going to happen at some point. I don't know what it is, and I don't even know if it would have been this,

but it was the kind of performance that I wanted. You don't think so? I mean, she just got to let her guard down. Her guard is up. She's got to let it down. I don't know. I don't know what it is, but it is very frustrating to just see

all these performers just let go. like Vanessa Williams in this movie, like Lita Waite is, is, has a small part as one of the hosts on one of these shows. Yeah. And her understanding of who this character is just by the hair she has. Yeah.

Is so great. Um, I really liked it. Hey, can we talk before we go? Just give me 20 seconds on Mank. Everyone went nuts.

Fincher. Oscar favorite. You concur or are you a little down on it? It's really good. Okay. It's really good. I did not care.

I did not watch this movie wanting to see it. Like, I just didn't. None of it interested me. I mean, the history, the Hollywood see it. Like I just didn't, none of it. I mean, the history, the Hollywood history interested me, but like I'd rather get that from a book in many ways. Like I've read all about this era. There's some good, I mean,

there's good reading to be done about it, but it is such like, it is such a pleasurably intelligent movie. And it's not Fincher. There's no, to the extent that there's ideology in this film, it is really about the difference between a writer and a director and what a writer can do that a director can't and what a director can do and a writer can't.

The movie was written by Fincher's dad, Joseph. Yeah. And the screenplay is oh my god it really makes you want screenwriting to return to the center of american movie making again it is such a great piece of writing it's so witty and so well structured and not afraid to sort of take up the structure of citizen kane while also for anybody who's this is a movie about um Mankiewicz's writing Citizen Kane in the early 1940s. And it jumps back and forth between the 30s when he and, you know, just burning all his bridges in pursuit of, as he's writing Citizen Kane,

one of the great movies ever made. And it just is not afraid to be as good as Citizen Kane in so many ways. Wow. So you loved it. All right, don't tell me anything more because I haven't seen it yet. I don't want to know anything.

But I will say, I'll just say that Amanda Seyfried as Marion Davies is Jesus Christ. Amanda Seyfried? Out of nowhere. Amanda Seyfried. What the hell? Really? Yeah. I feel like Sean Fennessey and I could have a very long Amanda Seyfried conversation

she's so good in this movie she's so so I want you to know something yes I never ever sold my stock of hers I kept it forever yeah I mean I watched this movie and like I don't know if you've had this this year

but like you know I've spent a lot of my movie writing at the paper writing about the past i know um and i and this movie is set in the past but it's the first thing that i've seen since you know the pandemic started that i mean it's bad hair does this a tiny bit but like in a much different and less powerful way. But it just sort of restores my faith in movie making. It made me excited to go back to a movie that people like really worked hard to make from top to bottom. And all that work is apparent in like the wording, just in the language that people get to speak to each other. It is just such a pleasure to watch.

It really, really is. I hope we get to hang out in person at some point. Who knows? Who knows when? I hope the country is a lot more normal the next time we talk. I was about to say. I mean,

the theme song for your show, Bill, has never felt more true than it like you know that whole song is is I know

yeah we're trying to take people's mind off it with basketball movies and TV for the last two hours good luck out there good luck to you in New York

it was good to see you as always it's great to see you Still Processing is the podcast that Wesley's on and he still writes for the New York Times

as well. I still do that. We'll be back on Thursday on this podcast with Million Dollar Picks and hopefully it'll be a nice, peaceful Thursday. Stay safe out there. Thanks. From your mouth to God's ears. I don't have.