The Bill Simmons Podcast - The NBA’s World Cup Fix, Plus the 2004 NBA Redraftables With Kevin O'Connor and Joe House

Episode Date: May 27, 2020

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Kevin O'Connor to discuss the proposed World Cup–like group stage format for the NBA playoffs, potentially eliminating conferences, how to maintain the integrity of the NBA regular season, exciting matchups, and more (2:15). Then Bill and Joe House revisit the 2004 NBA draft and discuss some of the subplots, draft comedy, and NBA legends from that draft class (40:25) before redrafting the top 14 lottery picks (55:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Get ready for the first pod. It is unlike any ringer podcast we've had. So there you go. Coming up, we're going to talk to Kevin O'Connor about his World Cup idea for the basketball playoffs. If basketball can come back during the quarantine and then the redraftables 2004,

the redraftables is back. Me and Joe house will break down that draft. That's all coming up first. Our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, fresh from his latest battle and some war in the 1850s, it's Kevin O'Connor. Your beard, it's indescribable. I can't function or think about anything else other than how full and beautiful that thing is. It looks, I can't even describe it. I really can't. What's going on?

You're not grooming anymore? You're just going full out cast away? Well, I'm basically going full out cast away, full out pandemic beard here. I do need to groom it. I do need to blow dry it. So say the beard experts that I watch on YouTube. So that's the next step is getting some of that stuff in with the assistance of my mom who used to be a hairstylist. She'll be able to help out with

some of that. Give me some tips and tricks. You're so manly. You have so much testosterone. You should just be spreading your seed across America. You can have like 700 kids. I don't think quarantine is the safest time to do that, Bill. Speaking of quarantine, you wrote today about a World Cup bracket format for the playoffs. So we talked a lot on Sunday's pod with Rosillo about different things I heard that aren't finalized, but I think what they're targeting, right? So to rehash that for people haven't heard yet.

I heard July 25th is when they want the playoffs to start. Hopefully September 20th would be the last day of the NBA finals. Hopefully September 25th range would be the NBA draft, either that Thursday or Friday, hopefully. And then October 1st free agency, the part that they have not been able to figure out yet. And I know that we're taping this on a Tuesday

and who knows if they figured it out by the time. It might've happened by the time we taped this until people hear it. They have not figured out the part what the regular season will look like, what the kind of preliminary part of the playoffs will look like. Mark Cuban, there was an article today

on the internets by Tim McMahon about Mark Cuban wanted to do basically the old entertaining as hell basketball tournament idea for the last two seeds. Bump out 29 and 30, get rid of them, the Knicks and the Warriors. Have 13 through 28 have some sort of tournament for the 7-8 seeds. Let's start there before we get into your World Cup idea. How many different ideas have you heard for what they would do with this little abbreviated

regular season slash first round play and whatever the fuck this is? Too many to count. That's for sure. I mean, going back to March, it's been an endless amount of different ideas that the league can end up using for the postseason or the resumption of the regular season. And, you know, Mark Cuban's idea, which was basically all 30 teams come back to play and they play anywhere between five to seven games.

Then you would have the play-in tournament in each conference with the seven and eight seeds against the nine and 10 seeds that that could be done in a different number of different ways where like it's double elimination or it could be like a mini three game series. There's different variations, but you know, there seems to be a lot of support in a, in, in terms of having an idea like that, a Cuban idea.

Um, and it wouldn't shock me if that's what ends up happening. And then we have our typical seven game series starting in the first round which i think they want by july 25th is what i keep hearing that's like kind of the drop dead we probably can't go further than that date date it's like mid late july whatever like you said july 25th is probably that last date because you only have a certain amount of time that you're going to be playing games. And one of the points being raised to me consistently over the last month is for the NBA, for the players association and for the teams, they need to figure out what is the best way to

use our time. Is it having, you know, a golden state versus Cleveland game? Is it, is it like getting those players their paychecks? Maybe it is. Maybe it is. But there are a lot of people within the league who say because of the amount of money that come from the national television contracts in the postseason, that that would actually be the more advantageous route to pursue.

Whereas if you start with the regular season with all 30 teams, and if something goes wrong, if you need a delay for a couple of days or for a week and you get to cut some more games that could be coming from the postseason instead there's a lot of challenges that need to be balanced here for the nba and i like cuban's idea overall but one of the things he said in that article that i don't really understand is he said the group stage idea which we'll get into devalues the regular season i don't see how installing a play-in tournament that would give the Knicks, the Cavs, the Pistons a chance to make the postseason doesn't devalue the regular season. To me, that's a separate issue, but I don't see how you can say that about the group stage,

World Cup-style group stage, but not about the play-in tournament that allows some of these really bad teams to actually get into the play-in tournament that allows some of these really bad teams to actually get into the play-in tournament. The other interesting thing about Cuban weighing in and potentially jeopardizing his Mavericks, who are a seven seed, but they're like 10 games ahead of the nine seed. So for him to say, oh, we should do this, and it actually is a disadvantage to his own team, I thought was interesting. The other thing that came out today, you know, Dame Lillard talked to Chris Haynes and he said how he's not coming back if it's meaningless, if it's not worth anything. He threw out, look, if we have a plan with the seven through 12 seeds and we have a chance to actually do it, then I'm in. What I thought was interesting, we know that he was one of the 10 guys on that

phone call with all the superstars, right? Which was two weeks ago. And that was the tipping point for when this shifted and this started to become real. Once the superstars got involved, we know he's one of the superstars. I had heard, and I mentioned this in one of last week's pods about one of the scenarios was dump the final three teams in each conference and basically have 24. And the way that would work as we explained on Sunday's pod is some sort of seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 for the last two spots. And I'd heard that pretty convincingly from a couple of people. I thought it was interesting that he brought it up because he is one of the influential guys. It gives him a chance to actually potentially make the playoffs.

And I think part of what you'd want to do with whatever playoff system you come up with is limit the amount of teams and players in this tournament. So if we have to get rid of six teams, that's 100 or so players and coaches and everybody else that are just removed from the campus, which I think is ultimately a good thing. Do you think that's the best idea before we get to the world cup that if we're going to do a plan that's that knocking out the bottom six, seven through 12, some sort of plan for those last two seeds, do you think that would

work? I mean, it's a good plan. I don't think it's the best plan I tend to favor the group stage plan and then one thing I want to go back to that you did say is you mentioned how for Cuban to suggest that would be not the best thing for Dallas that's not necessarily true they're only a game and a half back from Houston and Oklahoma City so they could actually move up in the standings too if they play a couple extra games yeah you're right like it could turn out that okc or houston ends up in that seven spot instead okay all right so explain the world cup thing to our listeners all right so the world cup style group stage was proposed by the nba last week and their gm survey and and basically it could be 20 teams enter the postseason, the top 20 records. So that would include the next four teams in the West, Portland, New Orleans, San Antonio,

Sacramento. And that's nobody in the East because the next four non-playoff teams, all the best teams are in the West. Washington's five and a half back and they have a worse record than those other teams. So it'd be the top 20 teams that get slotted into five tiers you would take the top four teams and work in descending order by record or some other way but this is the most logical way so the top four tiers would be bucks you know raptors in the east and then lakers and clippers in the west they would be the the top tier teams and then from there

you would have teams randomly drawn from the remaining tiers in order to create groups, groups of teams. So wait a second though, you're throwing away conferences. Now this idea, there's 20 teams conferences are out. Yes.

Conferences are out in this suggestion. And from what I understand, this is probably the, one of the only ways that we'll see no conferences. It seems like with a playoff bracket, it would keep with the current conferences as is. So with this, you would get rid of conferences. You would have teams playing each other team

in its own group twice. So every team would play a total of eight games and the top two teams from those groups would move on into the second round of the playoffs and a tiebreaker would still favor the teams with a better regular season record. If the two teams finish 4-4, the Bucs and let's just say the Kings, if that were to happen, the Bucs would advance. Hold on with that for a second.

How funny would the tiebreaker be? Just that alone. I know. What a great way for the Kings to get knocked out of the playoffs because they lost the tiebreaker to somebody else even though they have the same record I want to ask you first though Bill do you like this idea do you like the the group well so there's two separate things going on here one is that eliminating the conferences is its own really fun idea that I think if you're ever going to try this,

and I think, I think they're looking at a lot of this quarantine stuff as a chance to reset things that maybe they'd always kind of wanted to change, including starting the season on Christmas day, whether it made sense to have conferences for the playoffs and stuff like that. So by eliminating the conferences, assuming there wasn't an uproar for it and assuming it

just had more unpredictability and all that stuff, it could be a way for them to dip their foot into that. I've always thought it was a good idea. I always liked the idea of just one through 16, more, more random. The fact that these teams can, you know, during non-quarantine times, they can hop in a charter plane and fly wherever. It's not like it was in the 80s where they're flying coach. I just thought it was...

Still a concern the teams do have with conference-less games in the future. But at least you can test it out, you know, see how fans react now. Because the thing that would suck is if you're the Celtics

and you're a five seed and you're playing Portland, they're a 12 seed and you have to fly to Portland for games three and four and then game six. And that's 3,100 miles or whatever it is. That would suck. It's a big difference between that and Philly. But, um, so anyway, for that first part, eliminating the conferences, if you're ever going to do it, this is the year. And I actually kind of like it. I got excited reading your piece about it. The second piece, the 20 teams,

that solves two problems, right? We don't care about anybody in the East who's not a playoff team. All those teams are DOA. Sorry, Washington. It's like, we want to make a push, but five and a half back, the odds are with a month remaining,

it's so slim. Sorry, but you know, five and a half back, the odds are with a month remaining. It's so slim. Sorry, Nick. Yeah. Sorry. And that's the, that's my problem with Mark Cuban's idea. You're, you want to say that, you know, the group stage devalues the regular season, makes it irrelevant, but you're telling me it's fair for the Knicks or the Cavs or the Hawks to get into the postseason. This, the group stage idea to me, it is a larger change on paper, but it retains the value of what the season was in terms of that you're only allowing the teams

that actually had a shot to have a chance in the postseason. You're only putting those four teams that are on the bubble in the West in it. That's it. Well, the thing that I don't love is a team like the Celtics, right? So the,

are the Celtics, the cutoff team, who's the 15, the Celtics, they would be in the second tier. And yes, there would be the fifth team. Who are they?

The fifth best team though, or is somebody from my record? Yes. Right. So they could potentially get screwed with that. And they're, I don't know, a game behind toronto

game and a half something like that it would make more sense to me to have the top and i'm not just saying this because i'm a celtics fan although maybe 10 it would make more sense to me to have maybe 70 well it would make more sense for and i also think the number one seed should get rewarded a little more, right? Milwaukee. Milwaukee and LA, yeah. If you had one through eight and you had five as with the fourth best team, so the fourth group, and you... Who's the fourth team right now?

In the East? No, just in general. Who's the number four overall team? The Clippers right now. Right. So if it was Boston is five, Clippers are four, they're the top two teams in the fourth group. And then it descends so that the Lakers group

has the seventh best team and Milwaukee's group has the eighth best team. You could do that. Yeah, I would rather see that and then have a lottery for the other 12 teams. And for what it's worth, I mean, the way this was structured within my article is just one variation of what you could use. I just mentioned how it could be a random draw.

That's what the World Cup does. That's what the Champions League does. That's what a lot of soccer leagues around the world do. But you could have the top seeds drafts. You could have the Lakers select their teams within their own group because that would be that i mean you know i love that that because that ends up with a lot of a lot of twitter muscles it's the most bill simmons idea possible it wouldn't happen you want us now you got us it's a lot of that on twitter for the next four days talk about making

rivalries huh uh yeah but you could do that or you could do as you suggested that those top seeds get one of the bottom teams for sure right that that to me would be a fair thing to do to incentivize these top teams to approve that but i i would say to these top teams you know if the bucks went to adam silver and be like we understand you like this idea but we're not in favor of it it screws us we want the 1-8 matchup that we strove to have during the regular season as the one seed winning 53 games with only 12 losses it's like i get that but you still are the favorites within your own group regardless of how it shakes out and also because you have the best regular season record you would have the advantage and a tiebreaker. Not to mention that for this situation, what is good for the overall league

also benefits you as well. Maybe there's a short-term hit here, but if this is a hit for the league, every team playing eight games, which would be a total of 80 games, 80 games over two and a half, three weeks, however long it would take, that to me, I mean, of long it would take that to me.

I mean, of the people I've talked to within league office from teams, when they remove their own bias from their own team situation, whether they're a good team or a bad team, everybody says from a fan perspective that they would be in favor of this. And the response to my article today, I was shocked at the amount of people who really, really liked the idea. Even Chris Vernon liked the idea. And like, we didn't disagree at all on the whole podcast. People dig this idea.

And if I'm the NBA, I understand that what March Madness has, what these group stages have for the World Cup and other leagues. Adam knows. He's talked about how he's jealous of certain aspects of soccer globally. The NBA can capture some of that with a format like this, with games being played every day that are must win that matter that are high intensity. That means something for a casual fan. That's going to draw you in.

Whereas if you have a one to eight series between the Bucks and the magic, I'm sorry. Most people do not care about that because you're locked into Bucks Magic for a week and a half. Maybe you get a game five, but that's only mildly interesting for a casual fan. Maybe not hardcore fans, lifelong fans like you and me, Bill, and plenty of people listening to this pod,

but for the casual fan, they don't care. But a group stage is something where you maybe get a bad matchup twice for one team, but the other six are compelling and interesting and intense and actually mean something. But a group stage is something where you maybe get a bad matchup twice for one team, but the other six are compelling and interesting and intense and actually mean something. I mean, to me, it's like a no-brainer from a fan perspective. And as I said earlier, from a league perspective, it retains what happened in the regular season by taking the best teams and it creates an environment here that doesn't make things

especially unfair for any team in particular. Well, you get to dump 10 teams out of it completely. So that's much safer. I don't like the lottery idea, even though Conspiracy Bill loves it. Because Conspiracy Bill would just be like, get the fuck out of here. How'd they end up with all these perfect matchups? Come on. You know, it's like, oh my God,

Portland and Oklahoma City just randomly ended up in the same group. I can't believe that happened. It's like Adam Silver at home with like bowls, you know. Oh, it's like pro wrestling. Frozen envelope. Yeah, frozen envelope. He's like, all right, I got to get Dame Lillard and Russell Westbrook against each other for two games.

Lock that down. And you got to get the Pelicans with the Lakers too, right? Oh, yeah. You got to do all that stuff. But I think if they did, if they locked in the top eight teams, the way we said, where it's like one and eight are together, two and seven, three and six, and four and five. And then for those last 12 teams, you go snake fashion,

but you start with the fourth group because I think you want to give as much of a cushion to the top two teams as you can, because they earned it because that's the whole point of the regular season. So you lock down all those teams. Then instead of the lottery, I would have the nine seed wherever the ninth best team is that's in the group with four or five. So now that's like a murderer's row group, unfortunately for the four or five teams, but that's just the way it goes. You didn't win your league.

And then 10 is in the third group. 11's in the fourth group. 12's in the, in, I'm sorry, 12's in the Milwaukee group. So Milwaukee would be going against one, eight and 12 and then 13 and then 20.

So Milwaukee is one, eight, 12-13-20 and you just go that way. And then, you know, they are properly rewarded. And if they can't get out of, if they can't get one of the first top two seeds with 1-8, 12-13-20,

then you don't fucking deserve to advance in the playoffs anyway, right? Yeah, I'm with you. And like I said, with two teams coming out of each group out of five, five teams, one group, two teams get out

and to move into the top eight, the second round of the playoffs, Milwaukee's probably getting through. Lakers are probably getting through. I mean, the Clippers, these top teams are still the favorites, still heavy favorites. Who's the ninth best team?

Do you have that? It's OKC. So you'd have group four potentially would have the Clippers, the Celtics, and OKC as four, five, and nine. That's a fucking gauntlet. Yeah. Jesus. Just to throw it out there,

like within the article, the tiers that I outlined is descending order of record. So tier one would be Bucks, Lakers, Raptors, Clippers, two Celtics, Nuggets, Jazz, Heat, three Thunder, Rockets, Pacers, Sixers, four Mavericks, Grizzlies, Nets, Magic,

five Blazers, Pelicans, Kings, Spurs. I would argue... So maybe that's the way to do it. You do snake fashion for the first four rounds. And that's something that was mentioned to me as a way to possibly do it. But that last round should go backwards

so that the 20th team should be with the Bucs. Sure, yeah. Which would be the Spurs in this case. So if you did snake fashion one through eight and that night team was in the bucks thing and you got milwaukee and okc in the same bracket that's a better idea than mine i think that works better because that having four five and nine in one bracket is is too stacked

yeah i mean i i i have a google sheets doc with like 20 different variations of this and like there's situations in which if you do a random draw, a team gets screwed. You could end up with a situation where a team gets the Celtics, the Rockets, the Mavericks, and the Pelicans. Maybe the Bucs end up with that. And that's really not fair. That's what soccer fans call a group of death with the World Cup. That's something you do want to avoid, which is maybe where the snake draft situation makes sense, or maybe something that you're suggesting makes more sense. But for the most part, most of the ways you shake this out, whether it's random draw or

snake draft, are pretty even between each group that would actually be competing amongst each other. And with all the benefits that would come from the interest into something new for the fans, the benefits from a competitive standpoint, if I'm the NBA, I mean, they are clearly considering it. We know they're considering it. It was part of the GM survey. And I've heard that there's a lot of, you know, support within the league office for this. It's really just a matter of the players sign off on it. And more importantly, in terms of approval from the NBA perspective is if the team owners are willing to do this.

And clearly one of them, Mark Cuban is not, but there are others that certainly are, you know, Darryl Morey has crunched all of the odds and variables to figure out what's like the optimum thing. And he'll be recommending that. I'm looking at Houston, Houston 10, Philly is 12.

So potentially, if you did it the way we just talked about, where it's four and five together, and then it would be 12 and 13, that could be, Jesus, that could be Celtics, Clippers, Philly, and Dallas all in one group. So that would be the group of death, right? Oh yeah.

Yep. Yep. You'd have four of the top 13 teams in one group. God, that would suck. And now, now I'm voting for your lottery idea because there's a drop off. Once you get, once you get past Dallas, which is the 13th team, the last seven are Memphis, Brooklyn, Orlando, Portland, New Orleans, Sacramento, and it's San Antonio in there. It is right.

San Antonio. Yeah. Yep. So the fucking Spurs make it, you know, they'll figure out something. Yep. Popovich will come with some game plan. DeMar DeRozan will suddenly start be shooting threes. But this is like the thing that's exciting, though, about it. If you go in one day, you have LeBron James against Pelicans,

up-and-coming team versus one of the favorites in the West. Then later in the day, you got Houston going against Milwaukee. And then two days later, Milwaukee has to go against Damian Lillard. From a fan standpoint, I can't imagine how exciting it would be to watch these games day-to-day while discussing how teams are going to adapt with all these drastically different types of styles teams are playing. I mean, I get excited thinking about it.

It's wonderful. Once I saw it on Friday morning. Yeah, it's great. KSC, this is the second best thing you've done other than help win that war in 1852. I mean, I get the metal on my wall. When you attacked the enemy in the river. I thought that was brilliant.

I think this is brilliant. So what are we calling this? Last thing. We'll call it like the basketball cup? World Cup for... Maybe the Stern Cup. Are we just calling it World Cup? Why not the Stern Cup?

I think that's solid. I'm nodding. People can't see me nodding. I thought stern, um, kind of got the, kind of got overlooked in 2020 for some very under understandable reasons, right?

Kobe dies four weeks after he does three, three and a half weeks after. And then we have this terrible pandemic and all this stuff. And I think that would be a good way to honor him. this could be something that Adam Silver has always wanted was some sort of in-season tournament. And if this is a big hit, people love it. Just take this and plant it in the middle of the regular season and future seasons. You always have the stern cup midway through where teams compete and, you know,

10 teams, whatever the new format would look like. And, you know, fans would already love it because of what happened in the summer of 2020. What about the Spotify cup? Hey, I mean,

maybe if they're looking for a hundred million dollar check, I mean, if they want to make money back, honestly, they should, they, they should sell presenting sponsor and that should be the cup, right?

Spotify, zip recruiter. Would Spotify be the name in front or could it be Stern cup presented by Spotify? I think we'd want the Spotify Cup. I'll make some calls. Let's make it happen, Bill. I mean, honestly, I do think

if they wanted to recoup some money, having a sponsor own the cup makes a lot of sense. And if you're a sponsor and it's called the Amazon Cup, it would have to be one of the companies that's still doing well.

You call it the Netflix Cup or whatever. That's pretty good advertising. No doubt about it. A lot of people are going to be watching. Ratings are up on sports across the board. Super Bowl commercials, like 5 million? I believe so, yeah. So you figure it's like 10 Super Bowl commercials, basically?

You call it the whatever. It's 50 million to get it? Is it 10? I mean, Super Bowl gets a heck of a lot of viewers compared to the totality but you're getting more yeah you're getting more total games yeah six million people watch tom brady and peyton manning play golf with tagger woods and phil mickelson i think we should be prepared for any sort of rate record uh rating thing for this koc it's wonderful to see you. You've never looked better. I'm really proud of your beard. Congrats on this World Cup thing

and I'll talk to you soon. Talk to you soon, Bill. Have a good day. All right, you too. All right, we're doing the 2004 redraftables in one second. If you missed the ones we did from 1996 through 2003,

you can check them out on the Book of Basketball podcast feed or on the R Ringers YouTube channel because we videotaped, I think, all of those. Speaking of podcasts, Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay. It is launching late, late, late Wednesday night into Thursday. It is a podcast unlike anything we've done here. It's going to cover urban culture, sports, pop culture, a little politics. And I am super duper excited for this one. I think it's going to cover urban culture, sports, pop culture, a little politics. And I am super duper excited for this one. I think it's going to be a signature podcast for us.

You can subscribe right now on Apple, on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Go check it out. Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay. And speaking of Van, we did a new episode of the Rewatchables this week. Me, Van, and Wesley Morris broke down the Eddie Murphy classic Boomerang. I think one of the great rom-coms of all time. It's not, it's never thought of as a rom-com, but it really is. And there's so much to discuss. This one actually is a rare rewatchables podcast that was longer than the movie, which is one of my rules. Don't make the rewatchables podcast longer than the movie, but somehow we did it this time around.

So there you go. Go check that one out. And I don't think the rewatchables is coming back till next Monday. We're doing Fletch. So stay tuned for that. Okay. Coming up the redraftables, the dramatic return 2004 being Joe house. Here it is. Book of basketball, the 2004 redraftables. Joe House is here. We watched this draft together. I had just gone back to ESPN full time after I was trying to split time with Jimmy Kimmel Show and ESPN. Went back, flew back to Boston in June 2004.

Got a Ritz Carlton suite. You, our buddy Jacko, and my dad, we all watched the draft together. My stupid dad went down there early at the hotel bar and had two appletinis and was basically didn't speak for the first two hours. You were just looking at the room service menu the entire time, trying to figure out what we're going to order. And Jacko was just making joke after joke that I couldn't print in the column. So I don't know if it was a successful experiment, but I do remember really enjoying myself. How about you?

It was a very successful experiment. And I went back and read your 2004 diary. And it's amazing what you were able to print. I mean. I know. It's just the comedy lines were different back then. You just kind of made jokes. I enjoyed them.

We were making fun of Pavel Pascal Dines, a pituitary gland issue and things that would never fly. Now people would be, we'd have pituitary gland support group people coming at us on Twitter. Yeah. Different times. Different times. The big,

the big thing with this draft. Oh, we should mention you did wear a Tom Googly out of throwback jersey for the draft. And it was a gift from you. I think there was a whole thing about your triumphant return to ESPN. They put us up at the Ritz, which is to say they got you a room and Jacko and I crashed in it. And there was like a poster.

There was all this stuff. And all I remember is arriving in Boston and basically being drunk until I got on the plane to go back. Yeah. That's really what I remember of that trip. That sounds accurate. The big debate of this draft

was Dwight Howard versus Emeka Okafor. And you and I were both in the mindset of college should matter. If you're succeeding at the highest level in the highest intensity games, that should matter. We're coming off the 2000 draft with Carmelo and Darko, and that's just re-vindicating how we felt. Carmelo had a good rookie season.

Darko was a non-factor for the Pistons. And over and over again, it's like, why take these unproven guys versus these guys that we've seen that we know are good? I got to say, even though this was a loss for us, like I wrote in the draft, I wrote the magic around the clock with the first pick.

If they're smart, they take Emeka Okafor. If they're dumb, they take Howard. It's that simple. I still don't feel bad about that because I feel like if Okafor doesn't get hurt, he's just a guaranteed 15 and 12 with two blocks a game for like 15 years. I really liked his game. Do you remember if we knew about his back problems back then? No, we definitely did not know about his back problems. And that really was the height of this thing we've talked about over the course of a bunch of these redraftables,

which is the bias that we shared around watching college guys succeed on a big stage in the NCAA tournament with all those eyes and all that pressure and having that, you know, play a part in, in our forecasting, how they might prove out in the pros, this draft, that 2004 draft, 14 of the first 29 picks either didn't go to college or, or, or were foreign folks. And I, we were just very skeptical. And it comes through in that draft diary of the unproven talents. Dwight, you know, jammed it right up our rear ends, so to speak. He did.

So if I had to describe this draft in retrospect, in, in one way, it would just be that it was an unlikable draft. I disliked just about everything that played out with how this came out. I had a list. Livingston goes forth. He blows out his knee in one of the ghastliest knee injuries ever. I love Livingston. We're going to talk about him later. Al Jefferson had one of the all-time bad luck careers for if you did it 20 times,

this is probably the 20th worst version of it. We'll go through that. Okafor's back kept going out. Josh Smith, he's in this draft. J.R. Smith, polarizing. Sebastian Telfair, Robert Swift, Delonte West. Those are two 30 for 30s. Chris Humphries, married a Kardashian.

Kirk Snyder got punched out by Jerry Stackhouse. And then Ben Gordon, who we all liked as like, this is going to be like Microwave 2.0. He's going to be the next Vinnie Johnson. And then he gets signed by the Pistons and his career just tanks. And now he's at that point of his life where he's writing the players' tribune pieces about what he learned. I had so much higher expectations for him. And then finally, obviously Dwight Howard as, as the, uh, the headliner of this draft who we did a whole

pyramid podcast about on book of basketball, about how he's one of our least favorite superstars ever house. What was fun about this draft? Just the jokes, just the comedy jokes. That that's it. Just Victor crap. Yeah. It was a really a Victor crap. Yeah. Kind of draft who's in retrospect. So, all right. So it goes Dwight Howard goes one to Orlando, a Mecca Okafor two to Charlotte, Ben Gordon three to Chicago Clippers four. They take Sean Livingston. They trade down. They have the second pick in this draft. They dump a contract and trade down from two to four and get a second rounder out of it. We were apoplectic. Nobody ever drops because we thought Okafor was a sure thing. Right. They're trading backwards. All they're getting is a second round pick and dumping a salary that they shouldn't send. Anyway, your Washington Wizards were number five and you were pumped about this.

You were excited. At that point, Luau Dang was in there. Andre Guadalla, Devin Harris, Josh Childress, and your Wizards traded out of the pick I didn't mind it then I might have minded it then I don't mind it now because what Antoine Jameson did for that era

of the Wizards, it made them competitive it directly led to one of my most enjoyable periods one of my most enjoyable stretches as a Wizards fan, which was about two months in the 2006-2007 season when they went like 22-9 and Gilbert Arenas really ascended to the top of the superstar stage.

And Jameson was an important part of that. So in retrospect, thumbs up for Jameson. The trade was the number five pick the Christian Laitner contract. Thanks MJ. Thanks for that contract. And Jerry Stackhouse for Antoine Jameson, which was a lot. I actually think they, you could make a case that they overpaid, but at the same time, they got Jameson who, you know, had only been in the league six years at that point. And it was a 20 points a game guys. So defensible trade, uh, more interesting trade for Dallas because stack house ends up being a key guy for them in Oh six, when they make the finals run

and Devin Harris, you know, really gave them some speed. Then they were able to turn him into JK at a couple of years later. So, um, all the way around, that was fun. So anyway, uh, Dallas moves into that five spot takes Devin Harris. Number six was Josh Childress by the Hawks. And then we have some more chicanery at number seven. Phoenix is on the clock. They are about a week and a half away from signing Steve Nash and signing Quentin Richardson and building the seven seconds or less sons. We don't know that yet. They need cap space,

apparently allegedly to, uh, to do the Quentin Richardson thing. And they ended up selling the number seven pick to Chicago and getting a 2006 number one from Chicago and some cash. And you look at this now, and this is a great fork in the road. Oh, man, because Luau Dang and Andre Iguodala are on there. And they just could have, instead of paying $40 million for Quentin Richardson,

they could have just taken Luau Dang or Iguodala. Iguodala was from Arizona. This was weird at the time. We didn't like this when this happened, remember? Yeah, I still don't have a clear sense as to what Phoenix thought Quentin Richardson was bringing to the table for them. I mean, you know, he had a little bit

of that microwave scoring ability. He could come in hot sometimes. And he was a three-point shooter too. He was so ball dominant is my recollection. Maybe I'm wrong about this. Maybe the advanced stats don't back it up, but I just remember the ball stopping with Quentin Richardson too much.

I think you're right. You think just if they do dang, then they have the money to pay Joe Johnson a year later. Wow. Iguodala is probably higher upside as we're going to do in our redraft, but they signed Nash. They could have just, let's say they just take dang.

They already have Joe Johnson. They already have Amari. And this is a team that in the 05 playoffs really had a chance to make the finals until Joe Johnson got hurt. But I think dang, you know, maybe he's not as ready as Quentin Richardson that year. So that maybe you say it hurts them a little bit that first year, but then as it keeps going,

dang was a warrior. I mean, you look at dang's minutes per game. He was, he was leading the league in minutes every single year. His defense. And think about him as a perimeter defender during that stretch. He was so good defensively.

Yeah, so that happened seven. And then at number eight, some comedy Toronto takes Raphael Rougeau at number eight, who I liked in the draft diary as like a rich man's Mark Madsen, which is also really insulting. You think like, that's not who you want to be the eighth pick, like a better Mark Madsen. Right. And he ends up being one of the all-time legendary bus. He plays 139 games in three seasons, 11 minutes a game, 2.0, 2.8 points, 2.8 rebounds. And was one of those guys you saw him once on an NBA court and you're like, oh, it's over. There was like no chance, no way, no roadmap for him to be a good pro. And what it really hurts is Iguodala is the next pick.

He was one of a handful of negative windshare guys. He was second from last in windshares of everybody that played at all from that 2004 draft class. And you think about it, blowing that pick paves the way for the terrible Vince trade they made, which was, you know, he had a gun to their head and was forcing them to do something. But it was the worst salary dump trade of a superstar we probably had in the last 25 years where not only did they not get anything back, they had to take Alonzo Mourning's contract and they actually like made their cap situation worse. But you look at that, that 05 Raptors team,

which goes 33 and 49. They have a young Chris Bosh. They have Vince, who's a 20 to 23 to 25 point a game score at the time. They have our friend Jalen Rose. They have Morris Peterson, Danielle Marshall, Rafer Alston's there. they have Morris Peterson, Daniel Marshall, um,

Ray for Austin's there. If they take a good dollar, there's a whole roadmap where that team is all of a sudden pretty athletic and pretty competitive right away. And then they don't have to make the Vince Carter trade. It may that it's a weird, what if fork in the road? Right.

Cause the thing on top, I, that might've been if Vince Carter just came out's a weird what if fork in the road, right? Because the Rujo thing on top, that might have been, if Vince Carter just came out now and was like, look, as soon as I scrimmaged

with a Rujo, I had to get the fuck out of there. I just had to. I couldn't believe they took him. I would actually, I think that's defensible.

Yeah, that would be finally a legit justification. Right. So anyway, so that happens. Iguodala falls to Philly at nine. And then the 10th pick, Cleveland, Luke Jackson from Oregon, who played 73 games in his career.

And when I was doing the draft diary, I had a note in here about, um, they, they said he didn't bother coming to the draft and Andy Katz reported. They had, they go to any cats, any cats reports. Jackson just felt more comfortable watching it at home. That's a fucking red flag house. You think I'm going to be a lottery pick. I'm more comfortable watching this at home. That's a fucking red flag house. You think I'm going to be a lottery pick. I'm more comfortable watching this at home. What does that mean? Well, how about this? Did he know he was

going to be a lottery pick? Maybe he knew himself. Maybe Luke Jackson was very in touch with who he was. It's like, well, so he's going to take me 10. Yeah. Jackson's like, I'm going to suck. I'm not going. I'm terrible. So here's the other thing with that. You know, LeBron's on the calves by then they're trying to build the calves in a certain way. And Iguodala comes within one pick of landing and landing with LeBron.

Wow. And when you think about it, like what a perfect sidekick for LeBron, that could have been so pretty interesting. What if they're golden state lands, be Adrian's at number 11, you and I always like be Adrian's. Think about it. Like what a perfect sidekick for LeBron. That could have been so pretty interesting. What if their Golden State lands B Adrians at number 11? You and I always like B Adrians. There's nothing wrong with that guy.

He just somehow or another, he got the free throw yips. Right. But in the, in the, we believe season, I thought he had some good moments, but yeah, good rebounder, a little bit of a rim runner. And then he couldn't shoot free throws to the point that it feels like it ruined his career. Number 12. And now it gets really crazy. So the Celtics had the 15th pick and it's all high schoolers. And who the fuck knows you have for a high school standpoint, you have Robert Swift,

Sebastian Telfair, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith, J.R. Smith, Darrell Wright, all high schoolers figured to go around this range. And I remember I really wanted Al Jefferson. I was really excited about him because they were just like 18-year-old, low-post guy, old school. But there were all these rumors the Celtics were going to trade him for Robert Swift.

Oh, that's right. I forgot about that. And this becomes really tough when you're talking about Danny Ainge as a GM. There's been some bullets that he's dodged over the last two decades that are not just bullets. They're like the Teflon-coated bullets, the cop killer bullets

that could break the bulletproof vest. They're like bullets. They're bad the Teflon-coated bullets, the cop killer bullets that could break the bulletproof vest. They're like bullets. They're bad. This was one of them. They offered his 2004 first-round pick and a future first-rounder to move up three spots to take Robert Swift. That's been

confirmed? That was a confirmed trade offer? Oh, yeah. And the Sonics turned it down. Oh, brutal. So a couple, what was it? How many years later,

justice Winslow, they offer the four first round picks to move into the Charlotte spot or the Miami spot, any spot to try to take Winslow. And those picks could have been, you know, Jalen Brown, Marcus Smart, like I forget, not Marcus Smart. It was the Jalen Brown pick definitely would have been in there, but it would have been four first.

So Danny's had a couple close calls with like draft disasters. And I think this would have been one of them. They had a brain doctor back then who, who really liked Robert Swift's makeup, which is hilarious because Robert Swift had one of the, one of the all time falls from grace of, of any top 15 pick. Like he, you know, really had some really bad stuff happen to him. So I don't know what the brain doctor was looking at. Um, to our credit, we were suspicious of Robert Swift in the moment. I wrote in the draft diary, looks like a cross between Fred Weiss and Eric Montross.

And then said, anytime someone is avoiding workouts, all-star games, even interviews, this is ever a good sign. Now he gets to be tutored by the likes of Jerome James, Vitaly Potapenko, and Cal Booth. Can somebody have downside? Not upside. So we were all over that one, House. I feel good about that. Yeah. So then

Telfair goes 13th. That was another one. So in the diary I wrote, here's a doozy. Portland takes Sebastian Telfair and his 100-person entourage at number 13. Unbelievable. Horrendous pick. I'm speechless. So we nailed that one. Utah takes Chris Humphries, 14.

And then Jefferson falls to the Celts, 15. Kirk Snyder, 16. And then Josh Smith goes 17. We're going to talk about him later in the redraft. But man, what a weird draft. And then you go a little bit later, all of a sudden there's this nice little stretch

after your guy, Krapa, takes 22 and Monia, 23. Your boy, Delonte, goes 24. And that was like your buddy had coached him in high school. You were all in on him. He's a DMV guy. And we loved him in college. That was the St. Joseph's team with him and Jameer Nelson. Yes.

Tony Allen goes 25th. Kevin Martin goes 26th. And Sasha Vujicic goes 27th. And a couple other good ones. Verja went 30. And that's really it. Wasn't really good after that. Distract.

There's one noteworthy name. Chris Duhon, 38, who? Ariza. Oh, Ariza. Oh, yeah, Ariza fell to 43, which seemed dumb at the time. Yeah. So that's it.

Do you feel bad about getting the Howard Okafor thing wrong? Because I don't. No, I don't feel bad about it either. I mean, this is what the overwhelming body of evidence of this draft confirms is be suspicious of the high school players. Most of the time, it will not work out. The success stories are very small compared to the disappointments.

And this draft proves it beyond a reasonable doubt. And it really does confirm how important your on-the-ground observational, whatever the scouting capacity that you have at this moment. Just think about the discussion we had with

Danny Ainge and Robert Swift. The Celtics and Ainge have what we all regard as a top-notch institutional stability, solidity, good eye for talent, and it's been borne out over the years. But look at that. He was right on the cusp of a colossal fuck-up because that's what Robert Swift, when you click on his name, I mean, all due respect

to the things that he confronted in his life, but, you know, as an NBA prospect. Wow, that was PC of you. Well, look, you know, I... If you're just talking about draft profiling, he had red hair, and he was a big center with red hair, and we were all have our talk about draft profiling. He had red hair and he was a big center with red hair.

And we were like, that's not going to work. Everybody's going to try to dunk on this guy. We should seriously do a top five. Let's do the, the all time top five ginger list. I mean, seriously, there there's it's, it's, I can't do it off the top of my head, but well, Cowan's was a top 35 player of all time. Red hair. I think he's our best case scenario.

That's right. Yeah, there hasn't, Scalabrini's up there. There hasn't been a lot of them. The other thing, we were worried about Dwight Howard. Even before this draft, he's 18. You know, the high school thing had been so hit or miss. And then before the draft, they interviewed him and he said, quote, I went from an 84 crown Victoria that only goes up to

84 miles an hour to a new BMW that goes up to one 60. And we were dying. We were like, oh my God, we're late. No change the pick. Well, this seems like a disaster. This is in the category of things that we talked about that didn't make it into your diary because they weren't acceptable. Even back. We made the same analogy to, because there was a lot of discussion about his Christian upbringing and the sort of closed off kind of life, the closed off existence he had.

There were a lot of jokes we made in that Ritz-Carlton about Dwight being unleashed on the female population, the NBA groupie population. And guess what? They turned out not to be jokes. Well, he was unleashed. He threw his dick around like a salami. So Josh Smith was the other one where

just talking about some of the comedy stuff in this draft. And there was a lot of comedy. Um, the clips trading backwards from two to four and just getting a second round pick out of it was hilarious in the moment. Um, you were excited. Here's what I wrote in the draft diary.

I'm excited because my beloved Celtics have three first rounders. House is excited for Pavel Podkazin, whom he describes as quote a cross between George Mirosan and screech. My dad's excited. Cause he just threw down apple martinis at the Ritz bar and Jack. I was excited for two things, the number of bad suits and the number of mothers who weigh over 300 pounds. So everyone's pumped. We really had our A game on. From a comedy standpoint, Billis graded intangibles from one to five. And Jack O is confused.

He said, how do you rank intangibles from one to five? Intangibles are the great unknown, and yet he ranks them. Is he clairvoyant? It's a great call. How do you rank intangibles? I don't know. We should ask.

You should get Billis on. Elgin raved about Sean Livington's potential to Jim gray saying, quote, it might take a season. It might take half a season. It might take a year. And then I wrote after, or it could even take 12 months.

Elgin just in epic form. And then, uh, I'm trying to think what else? Oh, and, uh, and Bill has josh smith pick to shreds during a time when i think i think you might have been able to hear at the draft when the guys were talking about the pick i can't remember but billis said quote if you had to pick which guy was most

likely to be a bust in the first round it would be this guy he has no right hand and he can't shoot somebody he slept on the wrong came woke up on the wrong side of the bed for this brutal so when we talk about um every draft we try to figure out super duper star all-timer franchise guy all-star quality starter five star being a superstar super duper star quality starter, five star being a superstar, super duper star quality starter being a one star guy. Dwight ends up, would you say he was a four star all timer or a three star franchise guy? Cause I, I give him four stars. Like, is he like a three and a half? Yeah.

Okay. I like that. He's a three and a half. He's he's straddling. Because I don't think he's an all-timer because he didn't go down as one of the best 50 players ever. But he did win defensive player of the year

for three consecutive years, and he did lead that franchise to the finals. Like, the thing, when you're looking at a number one draft pick, you know, the first metric is can this player lead us to the finals and Dwight is a yes and he did it in five years I mean that's a very reasonable period of time for for a number one draft pick to take his franchise you know to the finals and and it's not like Orlando was good when when they drafted him I'm giving him a three and a half.

Three and a half's fair. Other than that, there's no two-star guaranteed all-star guys in this draft. I think Iggy was a one and a half. Dang's just a one. Jefferson's a one. Kevin Martin's a one. And then other than... You know, honestly,

Josh Smith was a borderline one. There was a moment in time there for a couple of years when people thought he was a top 25 guy, even though now that we know more about advanced metrics, we'll go into that with him. And then Okafor, I think, conceivably could have been an all-star if he stayed healthy. He was right on the fringe.

So let's do the redraftables. Let's redraft the 2004 draft. So the order at the time was Orlando, Charlotte, Chicago Clippers, Washington traded to Dallas, Atlanta, Phoenix, Toronto, Philly, Cleveland was our top 10. I'll give you the first pick. Okay. I mean, it's Dwight. It's it's easy.

We, in this very podcast channel, did a full evaluation of his whole career. We left wanting more out of him. And yet, for a period of time, he was the dominant center in the game. He was the dominant center of, of his era. And if something had clicked differently in terms of really psychologically, he, he could have been, uh, because he had all the physical tools, he could, he could have been, you know, a top 50 guy, I think. I agree. So we, we just talked about how he was a three and a half. He wasn't quite an all timer, but he was a franchise guy, but he was a little better than being a franchise guy.

I think one of the interesting subplots with his career is how unfun it was to have him as your franchise guy. I think yeah, I was another one where yeah, awesome guy. But if you had to watch y'all for eight months a year, it just wasn't that fun. It's so much more fun to have a franchise guy.

Even when you had Gilbert Arenas for three years, I guarantee that was way more fun than 15 years of Yao Ming. Not that he played 15 years. That was fun. Gilbert was fun. Dwight is in such a weird spot. The Orlando fans have such a conflicted relationship with him. And we covered all that in our pyramid pot. So there's not a lot to add,

but I think he's clearly the number one. And I think only a few times over the last 20 years has the first guy in the draft actually turned out to be the best guy in the draft. Right. You had it with Anthony Davis. You had it with LeBron, obviously, but if you went through it, it's happened. Tim Duncan, in the draft. Right. You had it with Anthony Davis. You had it with LeBron, obviously. But if you went through it,

it's happened less than... Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan, but that's going into the 90s. If you're just going for this, these last 20 years, it's pretty rare. Okay, so I'm on the clock

at number two. Picking... First of all, if I'm on the clock for the Clippers, I'm telling them not to trade backwards. Don't do that.

Stay put. Bad idea. This extra second round pick and the salary dump's not worth it. One of the reasons they did the salary dump, by the way, I forgot to mention this. They thought they had a chance at Kobe. Oh, interesting. So they did that.

You know what? And, and I think you, uh, I don't recall where, um, we discussed it. They did have a shot at Kobe. It came out. They did. Well, he might've been, he might've been cock teasing them a little bit. Sure. To, to drum up some Lakers interest. But so they did this where they traded back to dump a contract.

And then I think they did one other thing where they dumped another contract with us, with that second round pick to try to even clear more cap space. And then as it turned out last second, he didn't come there. Um, cause I remember that year, that was the first year I had Clippers season tickets.

All the Clippers people were all pissed off about it. So like he was coming here. We had the whole thing we're setting up for. And then boom, didn't happen. So who knows how serious he was coming here. We had the whole thing we're setting up for. And then boom, didn't happen. So who knows how serious he was about coming there, but that was one of the reasons they traded backwards. So I'm taking a good dollar here.

Really fascinating career. Um, I, I remembered the Philly years of his career being better offensively than they were. He really was, was he never even averaged 20 points a game, right? I think, being better offensively than they were. He really was, he never even averaged 20 points a game.

Right. I think, I remember writing about him at the time, always feeling like he was miscast. Like he couldn't be the Paul Pierce number one scorer on a best team. What he was was like a Pippen type. And I think eventually they kind of realized that. You look at the 2012 season for him.

He goes, so he averages 19.9 in the 08 season, which they don't do very well. And from 07 through 10, he's basically averaging about 18 points a game. He's like 45% shooter, couldn't shoot threes. And then as their team gets better, and you remember they make the 2012 run, Doug Collins is the coach. He's kind of, he's kind of morphing into what he would become. He's only 2012, 12 points a game, six rebounds a game, five and a half assists, 1.7 steals. Uh, he shoots 39% from three that year.

He's only taken three a game. And that's the, that's the Philly team that had Lou Williams on it. Spencer Haw has, it was a fun team. They took the Celts to seven. Yeah. Who else was on that team? Now I got to look it up, but that that's when he started emerging to, I think what we all thought he would eventually become.

Then that year, that was the lockout season. Oh, Drew Holiday's on that team. Elton, post-Achilles Elton Brand. Evan Turner, they're still trying to figure out what he is. So the team had a lot of talent. They end up throwing him into that complicated Dwight Howard trade where they end up getting Andrew Bynum that summer. He goes to Denver for one year, ends up, they lose to Golden State,

then signs with Golden State the year after. Golden State, remember they did the trade with B. Adrians. They added some first round picks to it, tried to create some calorie space. They made this big move for Iggy. And then he just completely reinvents himself on the Golden State teams. He becomes what we know him as.

Is he a Hall of Famer to you, House? You know, we've had this conversation and we had it in the context of, you know, trying to properly establish the historical mark for Golden State. I think he is a Hall of Famer because of the vital role, the vital contribution that he made to Golden State.

I think the Golden State part of his career is the part of it that takes him. I mean, part of the thing, and we have to say it every time we talk about the NBA Hall of Fame, the bar is very low. Right. For what he did, I think his addition to that team and his contribution to that team doing all the dirty work stuff, it was a great finals MVP moment for the league that he won that by really just doing all the dirty stuff,

being the guy that was willing to do whatever it took to win and and i think you know in view of the the legacy of that warriors team and what he meant to it i i'm fine with him being in the hall of fame yeah so and the following year they beat okc to get to the finals the 73 win season and. And they come back and they end up, OKC's up 3-1 in that series. They come back and win. He does a really good job on Durant those last three games.

So in his Golden State version of his peak, he was the best guy in the league other than Kawhi to guard LeBron and Durant, the two guys you had to shut down. I think as a perimeter defender, it's funny. I always had Pippen and Kawhi on their own plane and that's it. And then after that, we'll discuss other people. Steve Kerr feels really strongly that Iguodala was as good as those guys. Oh, wow. I think he even said that on a pod once. feels like it's a three person group, not a, not a two person group and that all this stuff, uh, Drake could do on defense and the athleticism and how unselfish he was and what an awesome teammate he was. He just feels

like he should be discussed with those guys. He wasn't the same offensive player that Pippen was Golden state. Didn't really need him to be the offensive player that Pippen was. But I think he should be in the Hall of Fame. And I think Robert Horry should be in the Hall of Fame too. I think both of those guys should be. I think playoff performance matters. Knowing your role, being an unselfish teammate, coming through over and over again in big moments. You just look at 15, 16, and 17.

And then 18 too, LeBron. Iggy's a little bit older at that point but he's going against lebron when lebron was just remember the brute force of lebron in the 18 playoffs and he was kind of unstoppable uh i think all this stuff matters to me he's all famer i'll be interested to see if he gets in but i'll tell you this if you're if you're picking second in nba draft and this is the guy you end up with that's a pretty awesome pick you know for a guy that you know there are a couple stats um you know looking at this there was a uh from 2006 2007 up through 2012 2013 he averaged at least five rebounds and five assists six different times in that era there was only one other player who did it more times.

That was LeBron. From 2004, 2005 up to 2013, 14, he trailed only one other player in that entire time period in terms of overall steals. That was Chris Paul. That's the part of this. We had translating Iggy's impact on the game.

He was in the upper echelon of filling up the bucket with a lot of different winning attributes. And the Golden State experience showed us how all that translates into meaningful winning impact. So I'm good with it. I'm good with Iggy. And I think the funny thing about this draft, I was prepared to, um, ask you why you kept inviting me on these terrible shitty drafts, the crappier drafts.

But, um, looking at this draft, there are a lot of third bananas, a lot of guys that were, that were important to, to, you know, they found themselves in situations and made an impact as third bananas, not a lot of top that were important to, you know, they found themselves in situations and made an impact as third bananas. Not a lot of top bananas in this draft. I don't mind this draft. I'm actually okay with it. I think it's pretty good. You know, if Iggy ends up being the second guy in the draft,

obviously that's not going to compare to 03 or 98 or some of the ones we've done. But, you know, he was a guy that I look at the advanced metrics for him basically from his, his first golden season, state season on his PR just sucks. It's like 14 or lower every year. He was never a guy for the traditional basketball card stats, way with fantasy guy, all that stuff. It was always the intangibles. And just what an awesome defensive player he was. He really was really spectacular. So I like that as a...

I think he's a strong second pick. Who are you taking third? I'm going to go with Luol Deng. The combination of his ability to be on the basketball court, all the minutes that he played. He played all 82 games in the first six seasons,

like five out of the six seasons, something like that, something crazy. In 2006-2007, he averaged nearly 19.7 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1.2 steals. That was all without him at that point of his career without a three-point shot. And then he came on with a three-pointer later, really extended his career that way, was a meaningful, impactful player for a great chunk of his career.

I have no regrets about taking him third in this draft. Yeah, it's funny. All of a sudden he was washed up because he had a nice little comeback season with Miami in 2016. They made the playoffs and then he was a free agent that year and that happened to be

the year the cap spiked and the Lakers signed him for like $70 million. I remember liking the deal for the Lakers because I was like 70 million. I remember liking the deal for the Lakers because I was like, Llewellyn's still good. That guy, he was a 3 and D guy when everybody needed a 3 and D guy. And it seemed like he had a lot left in the tank.

He went to the Lakers and his career just, it's over, it's done. But it makes sense when you look at his basketball reference where it's like the guy plays 902 games, but he plays almost 31,000 minutes. He averages 34 minutes a game for his career. And he led the league in minutes in 2012 and 13, almost played 40 minutes a game.

A couple of times, the first part of his career, it's preload management. They also, they had some medical staff stuff with him where, remember they had that spinal tap that got screwed up and really fucked him up. That's right. There was some real like medical malpractice with him.

And then he got thrown into, I remember being on Countdown when they did that Luol Dang salary dump trade, when they, they basically got Bynum's expiring contract that they could wave. They were still a playoff team at that point. And they just kind of dumped them to save money. And I went on countdown and I killed the bulls and poor Doug Collins almost had a heart attack because he hit somebody's Chicago ties. And I was just like, this is ridiculous. They're in the, they're in the third biggest market in the league.

They're trying to, to, to save pennies and cut corners. And it's like, if I'm a Bulls fan, I would just be enraged. Like you still have a chance to make a dent in the playoffs. It's not the second team in the East is not, you know, not set in stone. Like, why would you just give up on the season? Doug, like all the blood drained from his body. He was so bummed out. But, you know, I really thought he had a good career.

He doesn't have kind of a defining moment. Like if you're like, hey, give me your three greatest Luol Deng moments. I'm not sure I could come up with three. The 09 playoffs was really fun against the Celtics. I think that was one of the best first round series of all time. I remember probably their greatest win was when they stopped the Bulls 27 game win streak, right? Remember that? Stopped the...

I mean, Miami. Yeah, the heat. Remember that? Yes, right. I mean, Miami. Yeah, the heat. Remember that? Yes, right. It was a great game, too. That's a game... That game should... That should be a hardwood classics game.

You need to do one of those. You should put that up on the Twitter. I'm going to look up when that happened. Keep talking about Luol Deng while I look this up. Well, he ended up among the 2004 draft class. He ended up fourth in career minutes and fourth in points out of this class. And he was third in his class in win shares, the advanced metrics. So, you know, there are other talents we'll go through here.

But like nice, steady, solid guy that you can count on, fine third banana. So they beat Miami March 27, 2013. Maybe the best regular season game of this decade other than that OKC game when Steph hits the 35-er to beat. Okay. See, uh, Luol Dang, 44 minutes, 28 points, seven rebounds, five assists going against LeBron.

LeBron had 32, uh, also playing big minutes for that bulls team. Jimmy Butler, 43 minutes, Carlos boozer with a 21, 17. Yep. And then, uh a 21-17. Yep.

And then Nazim Muhammad's in there. It's kind of a weird bull. Nate Robinson was six for 10 off the bench. But maybe that was Llewell Deng's greatest moment. I don't know. I enjoyed him. I like the alternate universe where the Suns just keep that pick at seven.

Wow. They don't sign Quentin Richardson and he's just there in the Suns playing keep that pick at seven. Wow. They don't sign Quentin Richardson and he's just there in the Suns playing seven seconds or less. I think that's a way more fun version of his career. So too bad for him. Okay. I'm on the clock with the fourth pick.

It's funny. I did a preliminary list and I had Josh Smith at the fourth pick. And then I started thinking about it and I was like, wait a second. I couldn't stand watching Josh Smith and the guy never won anything. What am I doing? So I audibled out of it and did really deep dive this. I'm taking Al Jefferson. Sure. I get it. Way better career than I think people remember. And I think people remember that KG trade with the Celtics as like, they, they, you know, they just gave away KG, not true at all. They got a bunch of number one picks in that trade or guys had been picked in

the first round and Jefferson was a real prize. He was 22 years old from 2008 to 2014. He averaged a 20 and 10, 50% field goal. 2014, Joe House, all NBA third team on Charlotte, eighth in the MVP voting. Never won a playoff series. Just horrendous luck with the teams he landed.

Also involved in one of my favorite underrated, terrible David Kahn trades. Summer of 2010, he trades Al Jefferson in Utah for Costa Cufas, a non-lottery 2011 pick that turned out to be Donatus Montajunas and a non-lottery pick in 2012,

which turned out to be Terrence Jones. House, I think we have officially identified the poo-poo platter, Al Jefferson for Costa Cufas and two picks that led out to be Monte Eunice and, uh, and Terrence Jones. So the thing with Jefferson that, that, and I've, I feel I I'm really attached to this one because I watched a lot of Celtic games in those mid two thousands and really was just waiting and waiting for him to make the leap. He gets hurt in year two, right as it feels like it's going to happen. I forget if it was like a

sprained knee or a sprained ankle. He had some sort of leg injury and it really set him back. It was like right when he was starting to really show potential and he gets hurt. Then that 0-17, they're tanking for Tim Duncan. That's like a throwaway season, but he still averages 16 and 11 in a tanking season in year three. And yeah, at that point he's 21 years old and had some like McHale low post. Like, you know,

he had drop steps. He had jump hooks, jump hooks with either, either side, the old man, low post game, old school, loved it. Loved it.

Loved it. Goes to Minnesota. They've just gutted their team in the KG trade. So now he's on another terrible team. Puts up a 21 or 11 for them that year. We go into the 08-09 season. Now he's got Kevin Love as a rookie on his team. He's playing great.

He's 23 and 11. 50% shooting. At that point, he is, he's born in 1985. He's 24 years old, putting up a 23 and 11 blows out his knee. Bummer. Then here's the other thing.

If they just taken Steph Curry instead of Johnny Flynn, now he's on a team with Steph Curry and Kevin Love and Al Jefferson. It becomes quickly clear that maybe you don't want to play Al Jefferson and Kevin Love on the same team. So in 2010, they kind of panic after he's coming off the ACL and they deal him to Utah. And he puts up from the next four or five seasons. He's really good. Ends up getting traded to or signs with Charlotte as a free agent, makes third team all NBA. But

I thought he had a really good career. And I really honestly strongly feel like if you play his career 20 times, I think this might be one of the worst versions of it. There's a whole other scenario where he ends up, he never gets hurt early. He never blows out his knee. Um, he ends up on a team that uses him better and I just liked him. What'd you think of him? Um, incredible value at 15. Um, and as much as we just, youicism and gave Ainge and the Celtics scouting department a get-out-of-jail-free card with the Robert Smith misanalysis, having Al Jefferson as their backup. And I would say, looking at this draft in its totality, Boston did awesome with all three of their picks. I mean, Boston won this draft in terms of, you know, filling needs and getting meaningful NBA players who went on to, you know, make great contributions for other teams with Tony Allen and Delonte.

But, you know, Delonte was important to Boston for a little bit also. Well, he also was somebody that they were able to throw in the Ray Allen trade. Right. So he, he ended up, if you look at how they built the big three, a lot of it happens because of this draft and the, you know, they went three for three with picks, which usually doesn't happen in the NBA draft, but at the same time, they almost, they almost took Bob Swift. It's, it's, it's better to be lucky than good.

That's what that means. Yeah. I feel bad now. I don't feel too bad than good. That's what that means. Yeah, I feel bad. Now, I don't feel too bad for Al because he had a good career. I mean, he made it all NBA team. And how much money did he make? Let's see. He made $137 million. Al's fine. Pretty good. Yeah, not bad. Okay. So that pick would have been for the Clippers in a redraft. And so all the bad things would have happened to him again if he ended up on the Clippers. a redraft. And so he, all the bad things would have happened to him again. If he ended up on the Clippers, you're up at number five.

So I am going to take Josh Smith. Um, I, I think, you know, it's, it's funny looking back. This is one of those situations where I'm prepared to be kinder now

than I would have been while he was playing. Because while he was playing, you can't get out of your head, you can't take out of your eyes how terrible a three-point shooter he was and how insistent he was at shooting the three. He really beat Russell Westbrook to the punch in terms of being a prolific three-point attempter and a prolific three-point misser. He just loved to miss three-pointers.

But this stat that I encountered in the research, shout out to the Bleacher Report folks, this is incredible. He is the only player in NBA history to have an average across five categories of over 14 points, over seven rebounds, over three assists, 1.9 blocks, and 1.2 steals. He played 13 seasons. If you took out the steals, Tim Duncan and Kareem would join him on this list. Those are pretty good names. That's pretty good company for Josh Smith.

And the thing that I do remember about him was how fast he was off his feet. He was a great, great shot blocker. He had four seasons with at least two blocks a game, tied for fourth most in NBA history by a player 6'9 or shorter. So, like, a lot of stuff, like, you know, eye-opening stuff, just couldn't put it all together. And so, you asked, we had the fun breakdown

of Luol Deng's most impactful game. Obviously for Josh Smith, his most impactful game was that fourth quarter against the Clippers in the playoffs, right? Josh Smith, I had seventh, or I had him eighth on my board. Okay. From 2009 to 2013, 17 and nine, 3..2 stocks blocks plus steals. Yeah. Uh, 73 playoff games. He played in 15 and seven 43% shooting 63% from the line. When you look at that way, it's, and I don't think we fully realized it at the time.

I think we realize it now, especially as we can understand advanced metrics better. He's just not a winning basketball player. If you have a guy who can't really control the boards for you, but he has to play the four or the five and he can't shoot. But the best thing he can do is how he protects the rim. But more as a weak side blocker kind of guy. He wasn't like Bill

Russell, but he was good. He was great at coming out of nowhere and blocking stuff, things like that. I just don't know how you actually win with somebody like that would be my question. And it was proven out. I mean,'t know how you actually win with somebody like that would be my question. Well, and it's,

it was proven out. I mean, you know, it was proven out cause they never, they never won anything with it. Right. The turnovers and the, and the missed threes,

you know, you average two and a half turnovers. It's funny. Cause I remember in the, so the Oh eight Hawks who gave the Celtics everything they could handle in a seven game series. Remember? And that was one of those things where it's like, Oh my God, are the Celtics going to could handle in a seven-game series, remember? And that was one of those things where it's like, oh my God, are the Celtics going to choke in this series?

Right. And my memory is of Joe Johnson, Horford, and then the athleticism of Josh Smith. And I just had this memory of Josh Smith being good in that series. Then you look up the stats. He was 16 and six. He shot 40% for the field.

And he was three for 18 for shot 40% for the field and he he was 3 for 18 for the 3 point line it's just not a winning player there were guys that I liked more than him also like can we gloss over the part where Detroit signs him and within like 2 years Stan Van Gundy is just buying him out whole

just like please I'll carry your dead money. Please leave. It's part of his legacy. Quite a legacy. I still feel like if he was the 17th pick, that's pretty good for the 17th pick.

I had him ranked eighth. You had him ranked fifth. Right. One other thing with him, part of the Rashid Wallace trade. Oh, okay. Yeah. Meaningful. The 0-4, when Sharif,

he ends up on Atlanta and Rasheed's like, I'm not playing in Atlanta. And they have to do, they have to scramble. They get multiple teams involved. The Celtics get involved. That's how the Celtics got Tony Allen. And then that's how Atlanta ended up getting Josh Smith. So they rented Rasheed. No, wait. That's how the Celtics got. She, Tony Allen. And then that's how Atlanta ended up getting Josh Smith. So they rented Rasheed. No, wait, that's how the Celtics got.

She, Tony Allen was drafted by the Celtics. Right, that's how they got the pick to draft him. Got it, got it, got it. They took Chucky Atkins' salary, which I was mad about at the time to get this 25th pick, turned out to be Tony Allen. Atlanta's just like,

all right, sure, we'll flip Rasheed, who we've had for three days. If you give us your first, and all of a sudden they had that. So there you go. And Atlanta is just like, all right, sure. We'll flip Rashid, who we've had for three days. If you give us your first, and all of a sudden they had that. So there you go. I had a fifth on my board. I'm delighted to get him at six.

Kevin Martin. Okay. From 07 to 11, 22.4 points a game. Percentages were 44, 39, 87. For his career, 17.4 points a game, 38% three-point shooter. And I think somebody that, as the league evolved,

made more and more sense as it went. You know, I think because he's in the Harden trade, because they felt like he could fill a lot of the offense that they lost when Harden was in there, and then he just wasn't a good fit and didn't do great in that playoffs. And then his career goes downhill after that. I think people forget that he was actually pretty good for a while.

I mean, he was a guy that year after year was putting up 22 points. Yeah, he's one-dimensional. He's a pure scorer. He's the pure scorer. He's the only player in this draft with a 50-point game. Yeah. And that really, to me, tells the whole Kevin Martin story.

I mean, he was a prolific scorer with the percentages that you just talked about. But that was his single impact on the game. You like him as a third banana, fourth banana kind of guy, and that was his single impact on the game. You, you like them as a third banana, fourth banana kind of guy. And that's it. In 2013 playoffs plays 11 games for the thunder, 14 points a game, 37% from three. So on paper, it looks great. I just remember in the playoffs feeling like they can't hide them on defense. I don't trust him. I don't think he's ready for this. And if you look at, he only played in three playoffs in his entire career.

He did make a, he did make some money though. House say $83 million. Great. And was in involved in some goofy trades. He was involved in that crazy Houston, Sacramento, New York, that whole trade in 2010 where TMAC ended up going to the Knicks. He was involved in the Chris Paul trade that never happened.

Right. Basketball reasons. In 2012, he's involved in the heart of trade. And then in 2013, was involved in another three. Every trade he was in, he's involved in the heart of trade. And then in 2013 was involved in another three to every trade he was in. There's at least three teams in. He's one of those people. He always had value, but the team that had him always seemed pretty happy to trade him. So I don't know what that means, but I'm taking him six. Who do you have at number seven? I'm going to go with Trevor Riza here. here um the body had him sixth yeah the the the entire

body of work over the career i honestly gave consideration to putting him into that five slot um instead of of josh smith um but just the the reason i i have smith is because smith was a five-tool guy and was so impactful with the blocks. But Trevor, the thing that's funny, who do you have as the original 3 and D guy? Because I would say Ariza's on that list.

Who was the first 3 and D guy as that became a thing in the league as a league, you know, sort of pointed in that direction. Well, so this was that time late two thousands is when we really started talking about three and D guys in a real way. Cause that's when, uh, James Posey on the Celtics is just that all of a sudden it became, Oh, we should try to find these guys.

But if you go backwards, I think Michael Cooper Oh, sure. Okay. He's probably the first 3 and D guy because he actually had three-point range and played defense, and those were the two things he did. Yeah. So I would say he was the 1.0

3 and D guy. And then eventually it evolves. But yeah, Riza, 2009 in the finals, 48% from three. And we did one of those games on the Book of Basketball pod as like a pseudo rewatchables.

09 game four. And he's out there in crunch time. He was a great wingman for Kobe. Everything you would want from the three spot and was just really valuable for them and then ended up leaving. They didn't have the cap space to keep him, but has had a good career.

You had him on the Wiz. You had him twice on the Wiz. The first time he was good on the Wiz. He was good. In fact, the Wiz, speaking of cap space decisions, came off of a playoff series. I can't recall the year now. They had to make a

decision between Marcin Gortat and Ariza. They couldn't keep both, they alleged, and so they kept Gortat and let Ariza go, but Ariza was very meaningful and impactful for a little playoff stretch run that the Wiz went on.

And he played the role perfectly, that 3 and D role for the Wiz. The second trade was horrendous. And really, the second trade was the thing that ultimately may serve the franchise well. Because it's the trade that led, I think most directly, to Grunfeld finally getting fired. Which was, you know... It only took 15 years.

Yeah, because they gave up Kelly Oubre and brought back Trevor Ariza on the idea that it was, you know, they should try and make the playoffs a couple years ago when they had no chance whatsoever. One thing with him, the smart team's always targeting him.

The Rockets signed him in 2009 and then went back for seconds in 2014, which I always thought was funny. I remember talking to Daryl about that. Because Ariza, they signed him five years in 2009. They traded him a year later. And then they go get him back. It's like, Daryl, what was that like?

Did Ariza forgive you? I don't know if he's totally happy we traded him, but speaking of trades, got to do this for the audience. Trevor Ariza, it's a trade. It's a trade bonanza for him. So it starts, he's traded by the New York Knicks with Penny Hardaway's expiring contract in February, 2006 for Steve Francis, a trade that at the time was reprehensible because they were putting Steve Francis and Stefan Barber together with Larry, Larry Brown is the coach. The irony of it is we'd already seen them as the backcourt of the Oh four Olympic team that everyone hated watching and led to, um,

us completely remodeling four Olympic team that everyone hated watching and led to, um, us completely remodeling the Olympic team system. So good move by Isaiah Thomas there. Oh seven gets traded to the Lakers for Brian cook and Mo Evans, which was a hijacking. This was in Oh seven. The NBA just decides we need to get Colby better players. We're telling Orlando to give Trevor Ariza to the Lakers. We're telling Memphis to give Pau Gasol to the Lakers. The Lakers fans are going to be mad at you.

Lakers fans hate you. Those two trades are terrible. They got Trevor Ariza and Pau Gasol for nothing. Pau Gasol, I'll never forgive. I'll never forgive that trade. We got Marc Gasol. Marc Gas I was 370 pounds when that trade got made. There's no, it was like getting Oliver Miller, a tractor trailer, 2010, August traded by Houston in new Orleans, new Orleans trades, Darren Collison and James posed at Indiana,

Indiana trades, Troy Murphree, New Jersey and New Jersey trades, Courtney Lee to Houston. There's a lot going on in that trade. I think it's funny that Indiana traded a white guy and didn't get white guys back. That might be the only time that ever happened. But I think, uh, new Orleans clearly wins that trade. They, they, uh, I mean, not, not, I mean, Indiana wins that trade. They trade Troy Murphy for Collison and Posey, which I think pretty good. Um, 2012 June traded with a Mecca Okafor to Washington for the Richard Lewis contract that you've been dying to get rid of forever in a 2012 second. What a great trade that was. Well, and, and not only Richard Lewis, but a great big

bag of HGH went and went along with that trade really worked out great. 2014, another bizarre one traded by Washington back to Houston. Houston trades, Omer Ashik, Omri Caspian cash and a bag of shit to new Orleans, new Orleans trades, Alonzo G Scotty Hobson in 2015, first to Houston. They took Sam Decker, a rare, terrible, uh, hall for Houston. And then, uh, new Orleans traded Melvin Eli to Washington. So that was that trade. That was where Washington couldn't afford. They decided they couldn't afford, uh, Trevor. And so they just did the trade, you know, to, to avoid having to pay them. They couldn't pay him the extension. Well, you got Melvin Eli out of that. So congrats. Then he's traded by Phoenix to Washington for Kelly Oubre and Austin Rivers.

That trade is a disaster. God damn it. Oh my God. What a terrible trade. I'm going to curse. It's fucking unforgivable. I mean, it's... He got fired.

It's a goddamn confession. After 15 years of malpractice, one last goddamn cherry on the top motherfucking malpractice. I'm sorry for all the F bombs. Get signed by Sacramento as a free agent. They decide that didn't work out. They trade him to Portland for Kent Baysmore, Anthony Tolliver,

and a couple seconds, which was a semi salary dump for Sacramento. Cause they're getting expirings back. Portland's trying to get somebody who's better. So he's been on nine teams. Just an incredible run for him. All right. With the eighth pick,

I'm taking the guy who was seventh on my board, Emeka Okafor. First seven years, 13 and 10. Maybe if you do your career over again, I could find a better back surgeon for him. And I just like the value I'm getting there. Who are you taking nine? Jameer. Jameer Nelson. You remember

that Jameer made an all-star team? Not a lot of guys that made all-star teams on this list. But, you know, he was the point guard on a team that went to the finals. He and Dwight together took that Orlando franchise to the,

to the finals within five years of getting drafted meaningful career, top 10 talent out of this draft. I don't have any issue with it. His problem is he couldn't really shoot. He wasn't a great shooter. That's the problem with Jameer Nelson. He was, he was just one of those guys though.

Yeah. There is a million reasons to talk yourself out of them, but he was a guy that in big games was really comfortable. And I think if he doesn't get hurt in no nine, that series might be different too, because he's coming back. He's playing with one shoulder basically. And he's just the same guy.

We're in the stretch of a draft right now where it's all role players. You got Tony Allen, Anderson, Verge out, Jabir Nelson, Ben Gordon as a six man, he checked Jr. Smith, Devin Harris, B Adrian's little Josh Childress on and on and on. I am taking Tony Allen with the 10th pick. Okay. Dumb, dumb, the injury, right. As his career was, was starting to take off as a role guy where he dunked after the whistle hung on the rim, came down and blew out his ACL, the single dumbest ACL injury, probably the last 20 years. Didn't really play on the old Celtics.

He just couldn't shoot. So they couldn't put them out there. But had a better run with them in 09 and 2010, but really didn't take off till Memphis. And in Memphis, his career falls into place. Three first-team all-defenses, three second-team all-defenses, was probably the best defensive guard of about a seven, eight-year stretch there, where it was like, if you could put one guard on Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, pick anybody under six foot six, and then honestly could probably have at least made Carmelo

and guys like that work. I think LeBron was probably the cutoff because he wasn't strong enough to guard guys like that, but it was just an awesome Grizzly. And the Grizzlies, they beat the Spurs in 2011, which was a real upset. But when you look at the Spurs from 11 to 14, it's a real blip because that team for four years was great.

And they beat them. His single biggest contribution was helping that team achieve an identity. He really established an identity for that team. He was a force of will guy, right? He just, through his work ethic and a rare instance of a defensive player, inspiring his team to a level of play. You don't see it very often. And the stretch of time that he was in Memphis,

teams were able to play four on five against him defensively, right? Because he just could not do anything offensively. But what he did in terms of giving that team and that city, really, a basketball identity, Immeasurable. I would say a really fun foursome. Zach. Marcasaul, Conley,

Tony Allen, man. And they could never find that fifth shooter. They tried so many different guys and that's why Rudy gay was in there for a little bit. Tayshaun Prince. They never, I remember that one year Jalen

and I did the Western Finals for Countdown and we were joking about Jalen just signing with the Grizzlies because he was like, I could make that 24-footer in the corner. I could make it now. I could stretch the floor. But I liked him and he's a guy that stayed at Memphis

and is close with our friend Verno. Goes on his radio show all the time. So that's when, all right, the 11th pick, we got four picks left. I get to take Devin Harris, right? You didn't take him.

No. Yeah. I'm taking him. Another guy. He made the all-star team. You know, we're, we're down to the,

to the point where there aren't a lot of guys left who, who actually made an all-star team averaged, uh, over 21 points and nearly seven assists a game in 2008-2009, the year he made that all-star team. Amazing. Long career, fast guy,

backed up Jason Terry on that 2006 Finals team. That, you know, he played an important role on that Dallas Finals team, the 2006 team. Just a long career. He found himself needing to come up with a three-pointer

to be successful in the league, and he kind of did it. It was too late, though, by the time. That's right. The speed was there. It was always unclear if you could count on him in a big game. I remember really not trusting him in 06 and 07,

never feeling great for them. Sure. When he was out there in 07, he really was one of the guys that got worked by that Golden State backcourt. And, you know, solid career. Talented. I feel like the talent was higher than what the career was.

But, you know, he did make an all-star team. I can't knock that pick. Well, now it's really slim pickings with these last three. I'm going to take Anderson Vergeau. Because, at the very least, I know that he could play on a really good team in playoff games and not hurt me. So we're at that point of this draft,

right? He's, he's one of the guys, he had five guys on the Oh seven calves are playing big minutes and he's one of the five and he's out there. Credit to him. They beat the Pistons, this really nice Pistons run where they're really big.

They have the Wallace brothers still, the whole thing. They went toe-to-toe with those guys, with just him and Drew Gooden. I mean, he made an all defensive team the problem with the only knock is he couldn't stay on the court i mean you you have to play to to to be really valuable to your team and he just couldn't stay healthy um but you're right you know he he was an important player uh for a meaningful stretch of those cleveland teams um you know at this stage that's there's nothing wrong with taking andy at this this point of the an important player for a meaningful stretch of those Cleveland teams.

You know, at this stage, that's, there's nothing wrong with taking Andy at this, this point of the draft. He was also a beloved teammate and somebody that LeBron really liked. And this was when LeBron started to get power there, those last couple of calves years, and they signed him to a really bad contract.

Hold on. I'm looking up to make sure. Wanted to make sure the Wallace brothers. Were both Wallace brothers on that 07 Pistons team? Ben Wallace was gone by then. That was when he had signed with Chicago. Oh, okay. They're still going against Rashid, Chris Weber, Antonio McDyess.

Those were the big guys that year. And Vergeau, you know, it's putting up the eight and six playing 25 minutes a game. Um, but he was one of those guys when you saw him on the court, he was like your classic, oh man, I love that guy. Great energy. I know what he is. He's playing 20, 25 minutes a game. He doesn't hurt me. He's in the right spots. He finishes. Good offensive rebounder. And people always left out the part that he couldn't stay on the fucking court. Right. He got hurt all the time.

Got hurt all the time. It was always nuts. He has seasons. 2011, 31 games. 2012, 25. 2013, 25. 2015, 26. 2016, 31.

The Golden State gets them in 2016 and 17. Barely plays for them either, but is in some playoff games for them. Plays in the 17 team. I'm sorry, the 16 team. He actually gets some run in game seven against the Cavs. Goes against his old team. So anyway, decent 10th man if you can get him.

Who do you have for the 13th pick? I... Do it. I know you want to. Just do it. Just do it. Take him. I am going to take J.R. Smith. I really wanted to do Sean Livingston because of what he meant

to Golden state and, you know, the, the, the impact he had as, as a winner, he turned out to be a winner, a winning player, Sean Livingston, but there's just nothing there in terms of, of, you know, career statistics, career contribution. And it's all because of the devastating knee injury so i feel bad but it's got to be jr here because you know by far leads this entire draft class in threes it's it's not even close i mean uh he he he had you know 19 1929 career threes he He shot over 37% and averaged double figures in 11 different seasons. You know, very reliable

three-point shooter. Also had, you know, was a good leaper back in the day. And he was a tough guy to defend. Like a lot of athleticism when he was young came out of high school. Obviously, we all recall what he did to LeBron and the Cavs.

But look, he also was an important player on that 2016 team that beat Golden State. Yeah, the case for JR is this. And I probably should have taken him over Verge out. He played big minutes for good teams. The 09 Nuggets lost 4-2 to the Lakers in the 2009 Western Finals. He's playing 27 minutes a game for them.

The 2013 Knicks, which were the second best team in the East that year, they lose to Indiana in round two. But there was a run there where we thought, oh my God, this team, they lose to Indiana in round two. Uh, but there was a run there where we thought, Oh my God, this team, this might be a finals contender. He's playing 32 minutes a game for them that year, the calves all the way through those four years. He's one of their starters. And in 2016, he's out there in crunch time and doing stuff. And he played 35 minutes a game in the 2016 playoffs. Um, yeah. So interesting 2016 playoffs line, he scores 11.5 points a game in 35 minutes,

but he takes seven threes a game, 43%. So basically he's, he's averaging one free throw a game. All he's doing is just he's in the corner. And they're just like, JR, all you're going to do is shoot threes and play defense. Do nothing else. Do nothing. Don't do anything. Don't even think about doing anything. You don't want him to think ever.

Never think, JR. Yeah, I should have taken him before Vergeau. That was stupid. The other guy, I'm going to take him 14 and then we'll make Sean Livingston an honorary 15th pick because great, great. You know, if you do his career 20 times, I was going to those games early. Sean Livingston had a chance to be great. Like, and I don't mean good. I think he would have been in six time all-star. It's a testament to his athleticism that he had a second career with a leg that was not capable of being repaired or

restored to what he was before. Think about what kind of athlete you have to be to basically come within a whisper of losing a leg and to fully come all the way back and have a long run after that. But he was an incredible athlete in the first three years he was in the league. Yeah. He, that Oh six Clippers team, which really had a chance to make the finals and really got really just had a couple of bad breaks in the playoffs, but he, you know, they got, they had gotten Sam Cassell that year and Livingston became by the end of that year, it's his second year of his career. He's the third guard. He's the, he's the first guard off the bench. He played 28 minutes a game for that team.

And he was putting up seven at points, but he was five and five and rebounds and assists and was a really good defensive player. I think the thing that stood out pretty early with him was his passing and his defense. And that's why I thought he had a chance to be special. Sure. You could make a case.

He went to the wrong team because he goes there and they get Cassell and it's right when he really just should have been playing. Yeah. You know, and you think about like Dame Lillard goes to Portland and they're just like, here are the car keys. This is your team now. And, and Darren Williams and Chris Paul in new Orleans, things like that. I think Sean Livingston was as good as those guys. I really do. I think he would have been just an awesome pro. He was such a good passer and he was so athletic and he was so smart. And you could see by the time he got to a golden state and kind of redid his career as a role guy, just the intelligence he had made up for all the stuff he had lost by basically being on one leg. You're right.

Was still awesome. So I, the fact that he ended up playing until he played 833 games with that injury that he had is like impossible. He, his career should have been over his knee exploded. That's right. So I feel bad for him. I think there's an alternate universe where he doesn't get hurt and we do this draft and he's either first or second and probably first. Sure.

I honestly think he would have been in a multiple on be a guy. I'm going to take Ben Gordon 14th. Okay. You could make a case that he should have gone higher. Cause you know, his stats for a couple of years, there are comparable to the Kevin Martin stats. And if anything,

the three point shooting is better. You look at him now. And if anything, the three-point shooting is better. You look at him now, and if you didn't know any better, you would think like, wow, this guy's like the perfect guy for now. You know, he's got those last four, really his whole Bulls career. Jesus. Even as a rookie, he was good on the Bulls. His five Bulls seasons, he's 18 and a half a game, 41.5% from three.

And he's taken 4.2 free throws a game. Like we thought this guy was better Vinnie Johnson and maybe with a chance to be Andrew Tony couldn't really guard anyone. He was only six, three. He could get exploited on that end, but, uh, was just an awesome, awesome guy to have on your team. And in the 09 playoffs against the Celtics was a problem. We were terrified of him goes to Detroit and his career just spirals. He should have been Kemba Walker. That's could have been. Yeah. Like, you know, he, he, he was very good as a shooter, very impactful,

negligible defender, but like, why wasn't he Kemba? Was it an opportunity situation? Well, Derrick Rose goes there for the last two, last year of his career, but I still feel like they could have played together. You look,

so the seven game series they had against the Celtics in 09, legendary series, some of the two or three of the best round one games we've had. He plays 43.4 minutes a game in that series, 24.3 points a game, take six and a half threes, makes 37% of them gets to the line eight times a game. And that's why he ended up getting that Pistons contract. And I was fine with it. I thought Ben Gordon was great. I don't know what happened to him. You're basically getting,

if you're taking him in the redraft, you know, you're getting five years and then it just, it just completely falls apart. And he had a lot of personal issues. He battled depression. I feel bad for him, but, uh, I'm with you. Like he was offensively, he was a Kemba type talent. I don't think he was the same ball handler that Kemba was, but he was somebody that you could clear out who's going to get shot. Yeah. And we were so impressed by what he did for UConn in that run that we thought, oh, that third pick was a very solid,

you know, very well-judged pick. And it was. We were right for five years. I wish I knew what happened. All right. So if you have to pick one guy in this draft that you kind of still haven't given up on, who is it? Still haven't given up on.

Mine's Livingston. I am a thousand million percent in on he would have been great. I think it's such a bummer that it played out the way it did. So I still feel an attachment to Livingston. I also, I got to say, I always kind of enjoyed David Harrison on Indiana. Remember him, that center? He's a tough guy. I remember thinking like, ah, that's somebody that i could see that guy in the right situation but he never made it i mean maybe maybe be adrian's we didn't even put be adrian's in our top 15 no um but i think he could be super successful in the current iteration of the league i mean i i think right now with his running ability and his athleticism right well another guy like that is Darrell Wright.

I think, you know, another 3 and D guy. Bino Udre, we also didn't get drafted. He had some cups of coffee. He was a nice kind of future third guard. Not ideal, but a future fourth guard. Awesome. And then Vujicic, who... Vujicic. Sorry, Zach Lowe. Vujicic, who was out there on the court in big moments for teams that won titles.

So he's got to be mentioned too. Chris Duhon had a couple cups of coffee of potentially being somebody. He was around. And Josh Childress was interesting enough that he ended up getting a huge contract and then things fell apart pretty quickly. Never, never really figured out what happened there. Did you, have you given up on Popeye Sal yet or no? I gave up on him when he got drafted.

Lionel Chalmers. I mean, what about Mania? Crappa? Crappa? Crappa? Crappa? Mania?

Crappa. Pavel. What a draft. Oh, for one of the, one of the most unlikable drafts ever.

And I'm so frustrated by how it turned out for 12 of these guys. You know what? 2004 draft. Great. After six bloody Marys.

Joe house. A pleasure as always. Good to see you. You as well. Thank you. All right. That's it for the BS podcast. If you want to catch up on all of the redraftables we did so far, go to the Book of Basketball podcast feed.

That's where they live forever. We will have one more BS Podcast again on Thursday. Don't forget about Higher Learning with Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay. Thank you to ZipRecruiter. We will see you in a couple days. Hope you're staying safe. Listen to the experts. Listen to the scientists.

Take care of yourselves. On the wayside On the first side of the road I don't have to ever forget