The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Porzingis Trade WTF Emergency Pod With Sean Fennessey, Jason Concepcion, Chris Ryan, and Justin Verrier | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 476)

Episode Date: January 31, 2019

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Chris Ryan, Justin Verrier, and Knicks fans Sean Fennessey and Jason Concepcion for an emergency pod to try and sift through the Kristaps Porzingis trade. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's emergency edition of the BS podcast, special Nick's freak out edition brought to you by ZipCruiter. You know what's smart? Keeping Porzingis. What are you doing, Nick's? You know what else is smart? Going to ZipCruiter.com slash BS to hire the right people for your business.

They identify people with the right skills for your job. They actively invite them to apply. Right now, my listeners can try ZipCruiter for free at zipcruiter.com slash BS. ZipCruiter is the smartest way to hire. Let's talk about theringer.com. We were breaking down all things basketball. Anthony Davis wants to get traded.

Porzingis did get traded. You can read all about it on our website. You can listen to the Ringer NBA show. You can listen to all of our podcasts, actually. You can listen to me in a couple of pods this week that aren't this one. The rewatchables, we did proof of life. I went on Cousin Sal's podcast to do part one of our Super Bowl props that we will finish and put up tomorrow.

So that happened. And then I actually went on House of Carbs to talk about this new LA steakhouse that I went to called Cheese Baca, which was delicious. So check all that out. And then come back tomorrow because we're going to do a fourth podcast this week. This is what happens when we have emergency MBA news. We add podcasts. Coming up, a whole bunch of people to talk about one of the most perplexing NBA deals in a few years. But first, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, it is 1.20 Pacific time Thursday. This is an emergency podcast.

I was supposed to talk to Sal about the Super Bowl. We're going to push that to tomorrow. Four podcasts this week. I have Chris Ryan here, Justin Barry here. They just taped a Ringer NBA show that is now, it feels like it was taped in 1950. There's still good content on there, Bill. Okay, good.

All right, you can still listen to that. What was the content? It's Anthony Davis. It's all Anthony. It was BP before Porzingis. And then Sean Fentasy's here as well. He's just crestfallen, devastated. The Knicks have traded Porzingis to the Mavericks.

And they got rid of their two worst contracts. Sure. Tim Hardaway and Courtney Lee. They received Dennis Smith Jr., the expiring contract of DeAndre Jordan and Wesley Matthews. And I think Trey Burke went to the Mavericks as well. And there's like some future pick that we don't know what it is. It's basically a salary dump with their franchise player. Can you just give me a little bit of context? I really feel like I'm losing my mind. Because he was so high on this like 10, 15 minutes ago.

He was like, this is great. No, that's not what I said. That's not what I said. I just can you I'll explain why it could be great. But can you give me some context for what if this has ever happened? Has a team ever dumped its most valuable piece for cap room? I don't think it's ever happened. So cool.

Let's start here by doing this. The Knicks are basically saying we're getting Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving this summer. Right. Right. We're getting both of them. So that's the first thing. It's funny hearing all the Knicks fans flip out on Twitter, but that was my first reaction. Like, holy shit, they're actually getting those guys. And then as a Celtic fan, I'm like, oh, fuck.

We're going to lose Kyrie Irving. What was your basketball take there, Justin? I would say just fear if you're a Knicks fan. Like, if you have this cap space, are you really all that comfortable with Jim Dolan putting it to use considering how they've done that in the past? Yeah, if there was any team, if that was their plan, if there was any team you would trust less with that plan, I don't

know of them. By the way, it's pouring rain here and I think it's, God is a Knicks fan and he's sobbing. It's Jason Gallagher crying with happiness. So the last time we did this was 2010. The Knicks basically did a two-year cap dump to part the seas so they could get LeBron

and Wade and whoever else. Whoops. They got none of those guys. They got Amar Stoudemire, who's good for about five months. 50 games. And then they're back in this whole thing. So this is now two full decades of the Knicks doing this, Sean. I just said to our colleagues today that this is the first time this morning that I have felt good in 19 years about what the Knicks are doing.

They finally leaned into the tank after years after the Patrick Ewing to the Sonics trade that they should have been leaning into the tank. And they were doing it perfectly. The Bulls won yesterday, giving them a two-game advantage, putting them in the second spot at the bottom of the lottery. Although

the top three teams share the same odds of getting the top. The bottom three teams share the same odds of getting the top pick. But just stay in the bottom three. That was my only feeling, was stay in the bottom three teams share the same odds of getting the top. The bottom three teams share the same odds of getting the top pick. But just stay in the bottom three. That was my only feeling was stay in the bottom three. You'll have a ton of flexibility in the offseason. You'll probably have enough. If you make one deal at the deadline,

you'll have enough for one max contract spot. And if you want to trade your assets, you can do it. You can trade KP along with Courtney Lee in the offseason. And we just talked about earlier today in group chat, if they're going to trade KP for anybody, it was going to be Anthony Davis, perhaps the best player in the NBA, not Dennis

Smith Jr., perhaps the sixth best player on the Dallas Mavericks, a team that sucks. Very valuable, that Dennis Smith Jr. Can we talk about a couple of, there's so many different, can we start here? This trade is still available in June? Of course, sure.

Of course it is. Dallas is going to be like, hey man, if June comes around, we're not taking This is one of the craziest things about these last few days, especially the Anthony stuff

and this thing is like, what do these guys know about the summer that we don't know? I think we know. Well, I guess the wrinkle here is the reporting since the initial reporting,

is that KP will only sign the qualifying offer in Dallas. So I wonder how much that will mean. Can you explain what that means to the audience? It essentially means he's a restricted free agent this summer. The team that has his rights can match any offer he gets. But if he signs the qualifying offer, it's just for a set amount of money, but for only one season. So essentially, they only have Porzingis Dallas

if he commits to this for one season after this one. But he can't sign that qualifying offer until July. Until this summer. So that could change his mind. I guess the complicating factor is if you waited until this summer, it would have to be a sign-in trade at that point. So I guess that's why they moved now.

Why they moved now for this deal is a completely whole other thing. That was the rationale for why people felt like the Knicks had no chance in Anthony Davis. Because there was the expectation that he had no desire to play in New Orleans and that we don't know what the future of that franchise is. So KP not wanting to be there obviated the opportunity for them to get Anthony Davis, which is fine. The Knicks should not have been trying to acquire Anthony Davis

because they didn't actually have the assets to get him. What they should have been doing is holding a spot for Kevin Durant, trying to draft Anthony Davis because they didn't actually have the assets to get him. What they should have been doing is holding a spot for Kevin Durant, trying to draft Zion Williamson, and having Christoph Sporzingis, probably one of the 25 most talented players in the NBA, on their roster. At least one of the best assets. Well, maybe they were worried that they didn't think KD

could come unless they had the second max slot. KD's like, I'll come, but you have to get the second max slot. So then they panicked and they did this. I hate when teams make a trade that they don't have to make. And it just feels like there could have been a better offer. I asked you before we started taping, where was Sacramento in this? Could Sacramento, they had all the same expiring contracts.

Could you have at least gotten Marvin Bagley out of there? Who I like a hell of a lot more than Dennis McJunior. None of us, do we think he'll ever make an All-Star team? Also, just how did this go from two and a half hours ago, Kristaps Porzingis is unhappy with the losing culture in the Knicks to Kristaps Porzingis is a maverick?

This was like so fast. Well, what do we think happened? Do you think he wanted to come back and they were like, no, don't come back? That's been the understanding in New York. Yeah, in New York, it's that he has wanted to play and that he feels like he is going to be healed after the All-Star break,

and they don't want him to play because they're tanking. Now, it's unknown now what they're going to do with these new assets. Do you just let Dennis Smith Jr. play 35 minutes a game and maybe win you five games you shouldn't win? Do they immediately waive Wes Matthews and DeAndre Jordan? I assume so, but maybe not. Or you could flip Matthews. Both of those guys are expiring, so you could flip Matthews and DeAndre Jordan? I assume so, but maybe not. Or you could flip Matthews. Both of those guys are expiring,

so you could flip Matthews probably for, I don't know. A second-round pick? Yeah, something. DeAndre, if you watched Dallas, it almost seemed like he was tanking the whole year anyway, so he's kind of perfect. He doesn't move. He's a statue on defense now.

Yeah. The big-picture thing for me is just this is – the Knicks have been so bad for really on and off for 73 years. The Celtics. Haven't we all? Just that. Jesus Christ. The original franchises who have the same names that they had in 1946

when the league formed were the Celtics and the Knicks. The Knicks, they go through, they made three finals, I think, the first 10 years. Then they cratered. They were terrible for almost the entire Russell era. They have this brief comeback with Willis. They win some titles. Then they crater again.

It's terrible, it's terrible, it's terrible. Bernard King, oh, this is fun. Oh, we made the Eastern Finals. He blows out his knee. They get Ewing. From 89 to 99, they're relevant? And then the last two decades, except for the basically one and a half Carmelo years,

not relevant. This is a team that has been awful for 70% of its existence. Sweet. Literally 70%. I've looked for reasons to quit so many times, and they keep giving fans reasons to quit. Like Knicks fans, even if this works out,

even if this is KD, Kyrie, and Zion or RJ Barrett or whoever, it still feels like the wrong move. It still feels like the wrong move. That's amazing. You guys just don't have enough guys. Yeah. I mean, like that's just,

that's just KD and Kyrie is going to get you pretty high up in the Eastern Conference, but that's like, you're in a tough spot. I guess to be fair, this trade is not available in June because those were expiring contracts. So they're looking at it as this is our last chance to get rid of $30 million of contracts for next year that we could turn into Kyrie.

So if you're the Knicks, you're going, all right, just stay with me. We get to July. This trade is really Dennis Smith, KD, and Kyrie for Porzingis. You do that every time. The problem is we don't know if any of those guys are inside of there. Is that Bill from Long Island? I think it's Steve Perry.

Is Steve Perry? No. What's his name? Scott Perry. Scott Perry? Yes. Or Steve Mills. Steve Perry sings for Jerry. Steve Perry. Yeah. I wish Steve Perry made No. What's his name? Scott Perry. Scott Perry? Yes. Or Steve Mills. Steve Perry sings for Jerry.

I wish Steve Perry made a trade today. I'd feel a lot better about it. Can I throw up a conspiracy theory out there? Do we know how healthy Kristaps is? Well, that's the rub with him, right? I think that's why the Celtics were afraid of really diving in on him. So I think the case goes both ways on this deal then. If it's possible that the Knicks have just traded Kristapsorzingis at his lowest possible value over the last four years.

Yes. Or at his highest possible value. Because they think that there's something wrong with his legs or something or his back or whatever. That had always been the buzz with him. Lower leg stuff. It was lower legs. Hard for a guy that big to play for that long. It is a checkered history for the 7'3 and up guys. They really

have not, except for Kareem, who's an alien. You go on down the line, it has not gone that great, and that was the big fear with him. But when he got hurt, he was playing awesome. Remember that? Of course I remember that. That's amazing!

You remember when Kristaps was on the Knicks and he was incredible? He's literally the only great player they've had since Patrick Ewing. I know you guys have been trying to save Carmelo's reputation in the last few weeks. I know Justin is with me on this one. Carmelo was not a great Knick. I also don't think Carmelo is a Pantheon player. He's like the Fyre Festival of the NBA.

I don't know why we keep talking about this. I'm just so psyched out because that trade is the kind of mortal wound that ruined that franchise for five or six or seven years. And this feels similar. Okay. This feels similar. Well, how many teams are saying to themselves, come July, we're going to be a player? Seems like we have an inordinate amount.

And no free agents. Like who is actually going to change teams? Because Klay Thompson isn't. I thought Jason Concepcion nailed it when he said that ultimately this feels a lot like Tobias Harris and Boogie Cousins

in New York and not KD and Kyrie. Like, if it turns out to be something like that, that is dark. I actually think they're in a dangerous place with their fans.

Because if this doesn't work out... And Brooklyn is rising. So they'll only make one billion next year instead of two billion? No, at some point, your fans just have to... It's like a bad marriage

where at some point you just have to get out unless you're Irish. Well, I think that the bigger issue with any NBA team right now is that as we're seeing more and more, I think that younger fans are more player-allegiant

than team-allegiant. So as you get older, guys like Sean, guys like Brian Koppelman are going to be fewer and farther between. They're not going to grow up with diehard allegiance to the Knicks. They're going to be into KD. Having said that, though, didn't James Harden just last week or two weeks ago say how much he loved playing at MSG? It's still a spectacular environment. LeBron said when Wade came to town, town he was like it was always going to end here or the garden. I mean like it's there, it's still

out there. They said apparently that Dallas game the other night where Dennis Smith got a triple-double but I had a couple friends that were at that game and they said the energy was off the charts because of Luka was Luka's first MSG game and it was just like that's when MSG is really special and that's been

the irony of the last 20 years of just a fucking shit show but what's funny is you know you mentioned like Koppelman and Goldman

who just died who's rolling over in his grave right now that they traded Porzingis but like everyone's like oh man the glory days of the Knicks

and the glory days were like 1968 to 1973 that was 50 years ago and then it's like the Riley Knicks man that was like ago. And then it's like the Riley Knicks, man. That was like five years.

And then it's like, oh man, Melo and JR. That was like nine months. There are no glory days. The Knicks are terrible. We romanticize the 90s teams because they represented something that felt very New York, but was ultimately a very ugly form of basketball.

And they were a failure. That team was a truly heartbreaking generation for basketball fans in New York. They came the closest anyone ever came to beating Jordan. Didn't. Should have. They had a 3-2 lead in the 94 finals and had a lead with like a minute left and blew that title. And then they lost on the 95 was the Ewing, the finger roll from four feet away.

That was probably the best out of all those teams. Thanks for asking me to be on this podcast. Yeah, it was great, right? And then 99 was like the last fun, really fun Knicks team. You've been talking a lot about like historical aspects of this stuff. Can I ask you a question? Yeah. Has it ever been this out of control?

With the league? Yeah. Just the feeling of like player movement and like this sort of volcanic this out of control? With the league? Yeah, just the feeling of player movement and this sort of volcanic change out of nowhere like this. Yeah, and I think the internet doesn't help. Sure. And stuff like Rick Beaker's thing the other day.

Kyrie Irving's hoping to come back with LeBron. Can you imagine if somebody was covering the ringer day after day, like NBA players are covered. It was like, Justin Verrier, open to going back to ESPN. And then he'd come into work the next day and we'd all be stink eyeing him. Like, are you going back?

Like, what's going on here? He's like, I don't know where that fucking came from. But that's what it's like to be an NBA player every day. No comment. I saw him blink twice and I was like, oh no. Isn't that what happened with DSJ wasn't he essentially

sitting last week because there was some concern about what his role was on the team Carlisle was like this guy he was gone he was gone

Carlisle was like I don't want to do this anymore DSJ was like I don't want to do this anymore and Carlisle had to walk it back isn't it amazing that the Knicks

now have Frank Nilekina and DSJ but not Donovan Mitchell how fucking brutal is that that's insane and Moutier don't forget about him and Moutier have Frank Nilekina and DSJ, but not Donovan Mitchell. How fucking brutal is that? That's insane. And Moutier.

Don't forget about him. And Moutier. Would he have four point? Or you traded Trey Burke? Well, they traded Trey Burke. Three point cards? They should trade for Malik Monk now, too, and just so they can have all those guys from eight through 12, but not Mitchell. I still believe in Malik Monk.

Me too. So I theorized, I think last year, that I felt like the Knicks fans had replaced Red Sox fans. Like what we had with Red Sox fans pre-2004, where it's just like the default thinking is always, we're fucked. This isn't going to work out. This is going to go badly. We're going to screw this up. Isn't that what Knicks fans are like? I think that it's actually Jets fans and Vikings fans

that have a better case there. No, no, but I'm talking about the scale of the Knicks fan base. We also have half of them are bloggers. That's true, you're right. You had Golden die. We talked about it on the podcast after he died. All the guy wanted was for the Knicks to be good again and

to get back to where they were in 73 and it was 45 years and then he died. That's what the Knicks to be good again and to get back to where they were in 73. And it was 45 years and then he died. That's what the Knicks fans are becoming. But this is also the big thing. Like everybody looks at the ringer and they're like, oh, you guys, you're a bunch of Celtics and Sixers fans. I got Knicks fans coming out of my ears over here. Yeah, every night.

It's just like narration of it on Slack. It's just. Matt James and Noah were keeping the faith and Divine were keeping, before Divine went to the dentist today, then this happened. We're keeping the faith on this up until like 12 p.m. West Coast time. Divine's gonna be like,

you can put me under and just not bring me back at the dentist. So Noah, Noah's like 26. I mean, think about his life as a Knicks fan. Like you barely remember Sprewell's last season. He's nostalgic for Jason Kidd. Yeah.

He's like, remember that one year, man, we were hitting those threes with Chauncey? Oh, no. Was Chauncey on the 13 team? No, they got rid of him. I think they got rid of him, yeah. Chauncey was on the 11 team. They stretched him, yeah. Oh, my God.

It's a fiasco. I mean, if you want to talk about the more positive side of it, this is an amazing Mavericks trade. Well, you want to talk about the more positive side of it this is an amazing Mavericks trade well so let's talk about that really quick and then we can go back

to making fun of the Knicks great Haralabab our friend yeah executive of the year a former BS podcast

hall of famer but like he went into this with the same mindset that when Darryl took over Houston and Daryl's like, I just need to get two stars.

And then eventually that moves to I just need to get three stars. But yeah, I just gotta have two stars. I don't care who else is on my team. Just gotta make sure I have two guys who make a difference. And now Dallas has these two guys that are kind of perfect together. If KP can actually stay healthy. But Dodgers can create. And even if KP can't stay healthy. But Donchich can create.

And even if KP can't stay healthy, it's not the end of the world for Dallas. No. And what did they really give up? They gave up a first round pick and they gave up DSJ who they didn't want to have on the team anyway. And they've learned over and over again

they're not necessarily a free agent destination. Right. Well, you are if you have Donchich and KP. I agree with you. Here's the other thing. Are they a stealth kind of eighth seed now? Depends if KP comes back. If Por with you. Here's the other thing. Are they a stealth kind of eighth seed now? Depends if K.P. comes back. If Porzingis comes back in like two weeks.

Do they literally have enough guys on the roster? So they have Hardaway Jr., Courtney. They have Dodgich and K.P. theoretically. Yeah. Cleaver. They got Harrison Barnes. Barnes is like a competent NBA player. Definitely.

If he's your third or fourth option, that's good. Dallas is four back from the eight spot. It's feasible. If KP came back in a week, it's... It also probably depends on what year the pick is attached to. And Atlanta has their pick next year, right? Yes. Yes.

So, Atlanta has their pick this year. Every reason to go for it. Yeah. It's top five protected. So, they were heading toward this rain. So, they should just be going. They should bring him back and just go for it.

Why not? They got rid of DeAndre, which makes them better instantaneously. I keep hearing the Dierks still on that team too. Dierks shown signs of life. Sure.

It's not 1973 Willie Mays anymore. But ultimately, this is now one of the most fun teams in the league if he comes back. I'm trying to think. Those two guys together.

Is there a more electric, good one-two combination in the league? Maybe like John Collins and Kevin Hoarder? Wow. You mean it's like ball handler,

big man, young guys? Just two young players. Is there any better combination than what they have right now? So you take Hoarder and Collins over

and beat Simmons then? Is that what we're talking about? Hoarder and Collins can play together. Call for a stolen team. They'll offer a stolen table for you.

Does Kyrie and Tatum count? No. Kyrie's only 26. I think Kyrie is a little veteran though for the formulation we're talking about. Hey, speaking of him, so now every,

for the next like at least three weeks, like every single Celtics game is going to be like, it's going to be basically all eyes on him. Well, that's the other thing about this trade

is it is now like disrupted two of the best teams in the league you're breaking my heart Golden State who is playing

the best they've played in really two years it looks like they're ready to go on like a 27 game winning streak and they played a night and it's like 10 in a row right now

and now it's like why'd the Knicks do this is KD going to the Knicks now they have to deal with that. And then the Celtics, the Kyrie stuff, which I think I talked about on a podcast a couple weeks ago that I, for the first time, had heard from the Celtics side that they were like, yeah, we actually have no idea. And Ainge went on one of the radio shows in Boston and was essentially like, you know,

we're always selling our team to our own players and to prospective free agents. I mean, it's always a tryout and it's like, it's a lot different than Kyrie going in front of the season ticket holders and being like, I'm going to be here for a while. It's funny how this works for me,

you know, like, well, but the Rockets did the wink wink with CP last year. Right. Probably would have pressed the reset button on it if they had to, but they kind of stuck by it

the Celtics I think had a wink wink with Kyrie but now if Kyrie goes actually I've changed my mind I'm going to go

to the Knicks what do you do if you're the Celtics it's not like you can do anything it was illegal to talk about a Knicks contract

we also know Kyrie is probably significantly more mercurial than CP I mean he's just an unusual guy he fucking announced a horror movie this week based on the Skirvin Hotel that he's just a, he's an unusual guy. Yeah, I mean, he fucking announced a horror movie this week

based on the Skirvin Hotel. Yeah. That he's going to star in. Meanwhile, he has a chance to like make the finals. You guys can confirm though that I,

whether it was tinfoil hat or not, three months ago, five months ago, I was like, Katie and Kyrie to the Knicks. I feel like it's Katie and Kyrie to the Knicks. I was saying that

because I did think that that's what they were planning for and the biggest roadblock to that, if we want to look on the bright side of things, was Hardaway's contract. I was saying that because I did think that that's what they were planning for and the biggest roadblock to that, if we want to look on the bright side of things, was Hardaway's contract. That was, felt like,

to me in September, an unmovable deal. Do you trust Scott Perry and these guys that they think that they can pull that off? I trust Donald Trump's cabinet more than I trust those guys.

But I don't, the Knicks have never had $76 million in cap space. They've had 35, but they've never had 76. That's a lot. Do you think Rich Kleiman is the new team president? Fine. Bouncing back from his last podcast. I was going to make that joke, but I felt like it would be inappropriate.

If it means KD, sign me up. If he's team president. Here's the other thing. All right. Let's say this all works out. They get KD and Kyrie and they get Cam Reddish or something. Fine. Why do we think KD and Kyrie would be good on the same team together?

Like from a personality standpoint, both of those guys are pretty odd. I do think they're complementary players though. I guess, they're best friends. If you're Kyrie, let's say the options are KD or AD on the Lakers. Like, where are you going? Or would you stay on the Celtics? I would rather play with AD. He's way better and way younger than KD.

I don't think KD going to the Lakers in that formulation solves the KD problem. You're talking about KD and AD to the Lakers. No, no. He's saying KD goes to the Knicks. KD goes to the Knicks. AD goes to the Lakers. Who would you rather play with? Or let's say the Celtics land AD.

Would you rather just stay there and play with AD? I personally would rather stay with AD. The Celtics getting Anthony Davis thing is predicated on whether or not Kyrie Irving is staying, presumably. Hold on, guys. I'm going to bring in a conspiracy bill for a second. You actually do look like the Unabomber right now. What if LeBron and Kyrie have played in this all along? What?

So they incepted Scott Perry. What if it was like we both got to get out of Cleveland, screw Dan Gilbert, you work a trade to wherever, you go to Boston, we'll make sure they get a draft pick back, I'll go to the Lakers. And then when your contract's up,

we'll reunite like Andy and Red at the end of Shawshank. But Anthony Davis will be there too. And that leaves... You can't tell me that 100% didn't happen. Staple Center or Zuataneo. Yeah. Staple Wataneo. I mean, that doesn't make a Knicks fan

feel any better about anything in the universe that's a nightmare you know what else will make you feel bad I know for a fact that LeBron and Wade

wanted to go to the Knicks and Dolan and Donnie Walsh screwed it up great that happened cool perfect that's awesome

Riley came in last minute because the Knicks screwed up the meeting so badly those guys kind of looked at each other like, yeah, let's get a plan B. I'm going to say about a conspiracy bill though. Okay.

So you don't like that theory? I think that that's the problem we're dealing with right now. It's like the stuff that seems like it would be fringe thinking is actually probably more believable than not. It's more believable that there is basically a handshake agreement between a bunch of these guys to go to the Knicks right now than there is that they just decided to trade,

as you described them, the most talented player they've had since Ewing for Dennis Smith Jr. and a couple of expiring contracts. Let's take a quick break. We're taking a break to talk about To Kill a Mockingbird. You might've heard Aaron Sorkin was on this podcast, Academy Award winning screenwriter and playwright.

He discussed his long career, all the great things he did, including the West Wing, the newsroom, social network. Well, he has a new play on Broadway. It's an adaptation of Harper Lee's Pulitzer Prize winning To Kill a Mockingbird, which was recently voted America's best loved novel of all time. It has also become one of the most popular and toughest tickets to get on Broadway. It set the record as the highest grossing American play in Broadway history.

It doesn't feature the Knicks, which is a bonus. It's been selected as a critics pick by the New York Times, and it's been called one of the greatest plays in history by NPR. Two-time Emmy Award winner Jeff Daniels, live on stage as Atticus Finch. Variety said, one of the greatest stage successes of this or any Broadway season is not played to a single empty seat. And while it's sold out for the next several months, tickets would make a fantastic Valentine's Day gift when purchased for available performances

this summer or fall. Tickets are available directly through telecharge.com or the show's website to killamockingbirdbroadway.com. Check that out. All right, we're back. So I just looked at Twitter

and Yaya Dubin Is that Jared Dubin? Jared Dubin, yeah. He tweeted Charlie Ward was the last Knicks draft pick to sign a second deal with the team for longer than one year. He was drafted when I was seven.

I'm 30. That's amazing. We gotta just We gotta gif all of Sean's reactions here today. I'm just sick. I can't believe they did this. And it happened in the span of an hour. And there's just no way that there's logic behind what they were thinking.

They got scared of what? Well, Max Cameron disagrees. He said, imagine being in an organization so inept, you trade an athletic, pure shooting, 7'3 defensive monster on his rookie deal in exchange for cap space. Let that sink in. Oh no, he actually agrees. Of course he agrees!

I can't get over that this was for cap space. And DSJ, who is by no means an elite player, by no means has... Yeah, but you don't know how DSJ and Frankie are going to work together. You know what I mean? Maybe like their misses offset. Since this is on the record,

let me come forward as a Knicks fan who does not believe in Frankie Smokes and has not understood the cult of Frankie Smokes whatsoever. If you've watched him play this year in the

up and down rotations of Fizdale, you know that he still has absolutely no offensive game. He has no command of the game and his defensive skill is, I think, pretty overrated.

Like he just doesn't impact games at all. So why did we trade the valuable guy but not the not valuable guys? What would you have gotten for Frankie? Something, anything? Like a second round pick at this point? What are we going to do with Frankie and DSJ when we have Kyrie? I think Nephew Kyle has more trade value than Frankie at this point.

Thanks, man. Nephew Kyle is vital. Yeah, you're good team chemistry. DSJ, they would keep and have him play combo guard off of Kyrie, right? Taking shots away from Kevin Durant.

No thank you. We saw that show already. It's called The Oklahoma City Thunder from 2009 through 2020. That's too much of the finals. Dennis Smith is the big winner of this trade.

He's like, let's go. He always wanted to go there. He's my team now. Big Apple and DSJ. Here we go. That guy getting triple doubles and leading the Knicks to like 25 wins is my worst nightmare. What do you think Fizdale thinks right now? I think he probably thinks he's getting Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving.

Yeah. Yeah. How about, I think the Celtics should just trade Kyrie right now. To New Orleans? No, it really feels like he's going to leave. So maybe they should actually shop him and think about

what would be the future for him. What's a fair return for Kyrie? I don't know. Jimmy Butler? Here's this. Trade it for Anthony Davis?

We keep talking about how AD and Kyrie want to play together. Why not just trade Kyrie for AD and get Drew too? Just take both of those guys. And throw like every Jalen Brown and a million picks in there.

Yeah. Just assume the Pelicans team and do it better. That would be the funniest possible ending of this like 10 year Danny Ainge asset accumulation is to become the Pelicans. Well, there is a move where like it could do three-way where Kyrie goes to the Lakers. They send stuff to New Orleans. Boston ends up getting AD. I don't know if it's realistic.

Is that ultimately your endgame? Is that what you wanted out of this? I got to say my head's spinning. I don't know what I want anymore because the Knicks doing this makes me think that they feel like they're getting those guys. I believed in Kyrie and Boston until two weeks ago, and then I started getting nervous about it. The problem with it is that I wouldn't necessarily count on whatever those guys are maybe sort of signaling right now

being the case in July. Like, I just think that if anything, we're seeing how fast stuff moves, how things can fall apart and come back together. I mean, five weeks ago, we were like, oh, the Warriors, they look shaky. Look at the Nuggets, man. They don't look like they're really enjoying their basketball anymore. And now they look like they're going to, like, maybe you just say, like, can we run this team back?

What's crazier, this or True Detective season three? This is. Like, just for weird theories and stuff. I can understand True Detective season three. This is, I don't understand how this goes from that such a weirdly worded Wojtry tweet, the first Kristaps tweet that he sent out that was like, they've had meetings and there's concern on Kristaps' part about the culture. Yeah, it wasn't even that he asked for a trade. It was that they came away assuming that he wanted out.

He didn't outright say that he wanted out, but that was their interpretation of the meeting. Also, the immediate reaction to that from pretty much every Knicks fan and NBA watcher in the universe was Chris Epps being concerned about the losing culture of the Knicks now as opposed to four years ago when he was drafted

or six weeks ago when they were losing a lot of games. He's never, from what I've heard, he's never really been happy about anything the last two years.

Except for the fact that he's basically missed the better part of most of his career yet is still a recognizable NBA name because he plays for the Knicks. If he was on the Pacers and he had missed this much time, it would have been like, oh, it's too bad. Kristaps never worked out.

But if you go back in time and through the last four years of his career, what were the things they could have gotten for him? If they had traded high on him after that second season when it really looked like he was going to become an elite player. I know for a fact that Jason Tatum pick was, that was the number one pick I think was in play. Well, we know Tatum sucks now,

so that's good. I'm relieved about that. Did you either have Fultz? No. Lonzo? No. No, but I think the Celtics... I mean, that draft now

looks kind of weird. I think Phil wanted to trade him for that number one pick, but I think he wanted more stuff than just the pick, but I think that was in play. That's painful. You said something about that, right?

You were like, there was like a three-hour window where that was in play. That's painful. You said something about that, right? You were like, there was like a three-hour window where that was maybe going to happen? Yeah. And then I think Phil, there was some bitterness with the Celtics about that, because I think there were some serious talks, and then they realized Phil Jackson was just a lunatic

who's going to be leaving Nixon. Can we go through all the things that have changed just since the summer of 2018? Since this morning? Yeah. I'm just going through the standings, doing this stuff, took my head. Toronto has Kawhi.

Philly has Jimmy Butler, who also was traded to the Bulls in that time, in the last 18 months. Indiana traded Paul George for Oladipo and Sabonis. Celtics got Kyrie. Celtics got Kyrie. Celtics got Kyrie.

Detroit got Blake Griffin. Atlanta traded. Did that Doncic whatever trade. Trae Young trade, yeah. The Knicks traded Porzingis. The Warriors got Boogie Cousins. Oklahoma City got Paul George. Houston got Chris Paul.

Forgot about that one. That whole giant Chris Paul George. Houston got Chris Paul. Forgot about that one. That whole giant Chris Paul trade. And then Sacramento did something weird. And Anthony Davis wants to leave New Orleans. And Anthony Davis wants to leave New Orleans. With a year and a half left on his deal. 15 of the best players in the league were involved in something over the last 18 months. That's why I was asking, do you think this is sustainable?

Do you think that there might need to be, like, I personally, like, obviously it's good for business. It's also very entertaining. But is this how they want the leak to work? The interesting thing that has emerged for me, especially around AD, and I'm curious what you guys think and know about this, because I don't know nearly as much

as you guys, is just the complete ineffectiveness of the Supermax. The idea that that is just not a trump card at all for superstar players. And it's actually a hindrance if the guy is 70% as good as you thought he was, like in the John Wall

case, where you do the Supermax and then... Right. Russell Westbrook, nobody's going to want to have that deal. Blake Griffin, nobody's going to want to have that deal. It hasn't really worked. I think the only times it has worked are sure things like Steph Curry because he has the best team in history around him. I think maybe one other instance it's worked, but the more recent examples just it hasn't worked out.

So it only works with married guys. Way more stable. Could be it. I mean, what do you do if you're a small market team and the Supermax doesn't work? What are the alternatives for the union at the next negotiation so the NBA

has heard this argument because it's a league in crisis and nobody wants to admit it the league is like in full crisis between the tampering the player movement

the tanking like this is all bad and they point to Oklahoma City and like well Oklahoma City is a small team Westbrook resigned there and then they traded for Paul George.

They kept him. So it's all fine. And it's like, it's not fine. Three years from now, though, Westbrook is John Wall. If you own... New Orleans has now lost their two franchise guys, or they're about to lose.

Over the last decade, right. They've had two good players in the last decade. They're going to lose them both. San Antonio is probably going to feel aggrieved by that. That feels... I don't know if that was a small market thing. I don't think it was a small market thing, but I think it's a team that's like,

look, if we are in a free agent destination, if you're Indiana, if you're San Antonio, if you're New Orleans, and you're not going to get, you can't get into the mix with these guys. Yeah, there's a little confirmation bias probably happening. Like, New Orleans just didn't do a good job

over the past decade. The Spurs had a very weird situation with Kawhi and his injury and how they dealt with that and like what his uncle wants. Like how many crazy uncles are out there that are going to throw off like a top five player in the league? Well, you know, because you covered the Pelicans. They went all in really quickly with that Drew Holiday trade. And, you know, in retrospect, that turned out to be a good trade.

But I think the one model that we've seen really work, if you have a gym who's like 20 or under, the model that works is the KD model in Seattle, where they were like, we're going to be really bad for three straight years. So we're going to put blue chip guys around this guy. And we're going to grow this. Now, maybe it didn't work because they ended up having to trade Harden and it all got screwed up.

But that's how you build around a young star. And exactly what you're outlining is what I was screaming for three years ago with Porzingis. I was like, the Knicks need to strip this team down. They need to win 12 games a year. And they need to acquire picks to build out more assets. Not unlike what the Sixers did because there was no upside. The likelihood of them making the playoffs with the Courtney Lees and Tim Hardaway Juniors of the world was very minimal. And I'll never get over that Hardaway deal. That's like one of the worst contracts in NBA history in my mind. He was, but that was like $50 million, like $75 million

for Tim Hardaway as your number one option is insane. While David Griffin, I believe was on route on a plane to New York to interview. And after that, it got canceled. It's so funny that, you know, we see this over and over again in sports where you have somebody like a Phil Jackson who's passing through and he's clearly not going to, not there for the long haul, but now he wants something good to happen in the short term because otherwise, what do I care? I'm getting fired anyway. And then that leads to $30 million a year for Hardaway and Courtney Lee where anybody who knows anything about a basketball would have been like, just keep your cap space,

roll it over. Use the cap space, get more picks. Like you're not going to be good anyway. Like keep going. Maybe two years from now, something will happen. And these guys never think that way. You know, it's another wild thing about all this is this because we spent most of group chat talking about how you it's it's malfeasance to not let the market develop for Davis. Yeah.

If you're Demps, you can't get barked into doing this because you're just like you can't break and send him to Lakers because that's what he wants. But you have to get the Boston offer first. Yeah. Where is the rest? What were the other Kristaps offers? Because there was like five minutes where Zach Lowe was like,

watch out for the Spurs here for Kristaps. Why? Like, why not let like see what Miami wants? Like see what there's a number of teams who I think would have

taken a pretty big swing to get Kristaps. I would have loved like Buddy and Bagley in a pick. Like that would have been amazing. I would have been so

much happier with that. I don't know if I would have. If you're with that. I don't know if I would have... If you're the Kings? I don't think I'd do that at all. If you're the Kings. No way, because I don't think I can keep Porzingis. I'm Sacramento. Yeah, maybe.

But maybe you say, Darren Fox is there. He's a legitimate top 50, 75 player. No, the trade was Bagley. If you'd just done that exact same trade, but you put Bagley in the DSJ spot, and you bring Porzingis in, and you hope that he loves playing with Fox and Heald, and now you really have something, maybe he'll

stay. I don't know if he's one of those guys that cares about what cities he's in, but we just learned he wanted to leave New York. But you're talking about a tire fire franchise. I mean, really, you just outlined the last 75 years. I mean, despite the fact that they're in New York, they are so badly run and have historically been so badly run. Like you just can't compare it.

It's not like being in Boston or in Los Angeles because they've literally ruined the value of being in New York. There was a, I mean, you go back like when they hired Donnie Walsh post Isaiah. It's really amazing. I mean, now I'm going backwards. Like, Scott Layden was also really horrible. Dave Chekits was bad. Isaiah was, I still think, the worst GM of all time when considering all the things he did.

We did this on Slack like six weeks ago. And people are like, no, he actually drafted well. It's like, no, Isaiah was the worst. But then Donnie Walsh came in, and it was like, finally, they got somebody, Donnie Walsh. And, and it was like, finally, they have somebody Donnie Walsh. And what they had was, like, I think his health was, I mean, it's not his fault. His health was feeling a little bit when they had LeBron Wade,

meaning he was in a wheelchair because he was recovering. So they, like, wheeled Donnie Walsh in. I think those guys were like, this is going to be the mastermind? This guy's like, he's sick. Like, what's going on? You have James Dolan dressed in all black asking if these guys want to come to a show that night?

When's the last time you've looked up stories from that era? Because I've done it pretty recently and I forgot the fact that they put together a clip of The Sopranos

in which they were like, Tony was like, we need to go get LeBron at the airport. It's insane some of the things they were doing. And that was the first time

that the guys had their own camera crews and stuff. That was the birth of the whole I'm going to use my journey. I'm making a documentary about this. It was like Chris Bosh had one, Dwayne Wade had one, LeBron did

the decision, and that was the first time. But I thought— That's some bad content. I mean, we don't have to adjudicate like 2012 Knicks or anything. But I actually thought that even though they were not able to land the big fish and LeBron and Wade, a lot of what Donnie Walsh did during that time up to the Carmelo trade, I really liked. The assets that they acquired drafting Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, those were entertaining teams. They were a good fit for Mike D.

And even though they were never going to win the NBA title, they were accumulating young assets. And they spent those young assets on Melo, which was a huge mistake because he was going to be a free agent. It's not unlike, you know, some of the situations that have played out in the last 10 years with guys who are on the precipice of free agency getting dealt. And then you realize that you've just wasted your assets

to sign somebody to stay with the team. Hold on. If we're really going to stay with the team but hold on if we're really going to legislate the mistakes think of 100 million to Omari which is fine because

the idiot they had the what was it called the amnesty clause was coming the stretch so they knew that was probably coming

after the next lockout the mistake the biggest mistake in Nick's history recent Nick's history was the lockout. The mistake, the biggest mistake in Nick's history, recent Nick's history, was the lockout ends, they use the amnesty on Chauncey Billups

so they can then sign Tyson Chandler to have their quote-unquote big three. And then they had no amnesty for Amari. And he just destroys them basically

for the next four years. And that was it. But if they don't use that amnesty on him... I would argue that what destroyed them was building your team around Carmelo. I don't think that that was ever the right choice. Well, poor Carmelo. There's constantly this pushing.

He was number three MVP in 2013. That's a good trade. He was the third best player in the league. But not if he would have just gone three months later, right? Yeah. He wanted to get paid. This is his legacy. He's too greedy.

He was greedy in 11. He's greedy in 15. That is an unforgivable sin. It's his legacy. He's too greedy. He was greedy in 11. He was greedy in 15. That is an unforgivable sin. It's his legacy. That is an unforgivable sin. I don't blame Mel. I blame the Knicks. And the whole thing is there's this push and pull between the team that we know,

like the blueprint we know that works for every team versus the team they think they are. And this is why it's so fraught what they're doing now, because it just drags up this belief that they think they should be big players like the Lakers when in actuality they should be building their team like the Hawks. I like what the Hawks are doing.

Couple tweets from Zach Lowe. Just landed. Zach landed yet. He said, Dallas should call KP's bluff on qualifying after he makes it. He said, yes to cap space's bluff on qualifying after he makes it. He said, yes, the cap space angle for NYK double max, blah, blah, blah.

Overlook possibility. Nix grew weary of KP's justified complaints. Said, enough. Then he answered, right or wrong. And the answer to Nix is almost always wrong. I do think front office org feeling like KP just didn't trust them and would never trust them was a factor in them cutting

bait at this time early and at this price. How much more value does he have if you just do this trade in September? Before the season started? You can't do it in September if the goal of the trade is to get KD and those guys.

I don't even think in September because we didn't really have the Kyrie stuff in September. You don of the trade is to get KD and those guys. The thing is, I don't even think in September, because we didn't really have the Kyrie stuff in September, right? You don't have the expiring contracts at that point.

Yeah. And KD would have already, it just doesn't work. The math is like you have to do the trade now. Yeah, the qualifying offer, you'd have to pay him something in double-digit millions,

I'd assume. I meant last September. I don't mean this year. Last September. I meant when we don't feel like, yeah, but we also don't feel this. This ambient pressure that burst after an hour is so confusing to me. And it does really seem like Dallas and the Knicks just started talking.

I mean, they just put this together like that. Are people in their 20s just unhappy? Like, is the ringer like this? Is everybody unhappy at the ringer? Yes. Kyle, are you happy? I'm doing great. You're not going to ask for a trade, are you?

I went to Utah, dude. You're good? Yeah. Kyle, are you happy? I'm doing great. You're not going to ask for a trade, are you? I went to Utah, dude. I'm good. You're good? Yeah. Kyle, can you protect the rim and shoot threes? I'm my best. Maybe millennials look just for reasons to be unhappy. I'm trying to sort this out.

I don't understand why. How is everybody in the NBA unhappy except for three guys? They're not unhappy. They just, it's like, it's not, they're boring if they're not moving. It's a constant churn of action to create more interest in who they are. It's not, if you just are like, hey, I'm going to stay in New Orleans for seven years,

that'll just always be Anthony Davis, the guy that basketball lovers love to watch. Unless you're married. I gotta go do the watch. That's it, you're done? All right, we'll take one more break. We'll take a break to talk about the Sonos Beam, smart compact soundbar for your TV,

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S-O-N-O-S.com. While we're here, we were supposed to have Bob Arum on this week, and we did, and it was awesome. It was actually one of the most fun interviews I've had in a long time. He is 87 years old, and he's hilarious and remembers absolutely everything. One of the reasons we were going to run it this week was because he had some fights that are on ESPN and ESPN Plus, including the title fight Alvarez and Kovalev, Valdez versus Tomasone,

and a whole bunch of other ones. Tomasone? Tomasone? It's the Featherweights. I don't follow the Featherweights, but I'm going to watch that one. Anyway, that's on ESPN all day on February 2nd, Saturday night. ESPN and ESPN Plus back and forth. So sorry we didn't have Bob on this week to promote that,

but we have him coming on later in February and it is going to be fantastic. In the meantime, you can watch those fights and enjoy them. Back to the pod. All right, we're back. We made a trade. Chris Ryan's super unhappy and he wanted out. So we traded him to the watch for Jason Concepcion.

Was he restricted free agent? Yeah. With no leverage? Sign our qualifying offer, Jason. Is this it? Is this the nadir? This is as low as it can get. Let me just, so let me get this straight.

The best player the Knicks have had in a decade. One of the most exciting young players in the league. He's a restricted free agent. Next year. This summer. With zero fucking leverage coming off an ACL injury. And they trade him for cap space. Yeah.

And Dennis McJunior. Why? And the other thing is, the fucking explanation makes zero sense. Oh, Chris Esparzinga's had a meeting with Nick's management and hated the direction of the team, hated the losing, and left the impression that he wanted to be

traded, and then like 45 seconds later, they had a whole trade structure with multiple players involved? Fucking bullshit. Do you think that there's a huge conspiracy? Yes. Do you think this has been in the works for a long time? I think this has been in the works for a while because you don't just make a trade in two minutes after a guy walks out the door.

I think they've been shopping him and I think they leaked it in order to make him the bad guy but he hates all of this. He doesn't like the losing. He doesn't want to be part of this. I didn't, conspiracy Bill was here before.

He's coming back. This is good. And then when he did get mad because they're not letting him know what's going on, they went, aha, spring it, leak it,

and now the trade is ready to be done. It's there. The papers are done. This is logical. Yes. Can conspiracy bill join you on this? None of the other explanations make sense. What they said does not make sense.

So they negotiate with Dallas secretly. Yes. And Dallas says, here's how, here's what we'll do. Right. They have that information. They have the meeting with KP today. Right.

KP, it goes exactly how they think it's going to go because he hates everybody there. And they're like, all right, we'll leak it out. Yes. I like this theory. This is the only way it makes sense. And the only way this comes good is if they have some kind of fucking back channel, the rich climate where he's like, Katie's coming. Because if we're maxing. Well, that's how we started the podcast.

Because if we're maxing Tobias Harris and fucking Boogie this summer, the building should be burned to the ground. That's the second person who said that. No, I credited Jason with that exact thought. The building should be burned. It should be burned to the fucking ground. Okay, answer me this. I think what you have just laid out is incredibly convincing. However, that means that there is extraordinary confidence

on the side of Nick's management that they're going to get what they want. Does that make you feel any better? I mean, you know, a bird in the hand beats one in the bush. That's a saying that's like 5,000 years old for a reason because you don't bet on shit that you don't know. If you don't know something is coming. If you break the 2010, you got a Maury.

Yeah, right? This is what I'm scared of is like the Knicks are back and it's like who? Who is saying the Knicks are back? Like literally the worst guy in the league? Who are the free agents they could get after Durant, Kyrie, and who? Jimmy Butler. Jimmy Butler, Kemba.

Crazy Jimmy. Tobias Harris. Kemba, no. Then you could have Kemba, DSJ, Moutier, and Nilekina all play together. Yeah, you need Kyrie to go with the seven other point guards. And, like, the idea that the Knicks were ever players in the AD sweepstakes is absurd. Agree. Because they have the worst package out there by far.

Milwaukee's package is better. Well, you had your first pick there. The pick's in there. 14% chance at Zion. And it could equally be like Rudy Gay, number one, number two, number three, the rest of the guys in that draft, and KP on one leg. That's your draft package. That sucks.

That's trash. That is shit. Why would you, like, give me Middleton and whatever the fuck else the Bucs want, DiVincenzo and some picks? Like, that's better. I don't know about, Middleton's expiring, isn't he? He is. I'd rather have the chance at KP on a QO

and also the number one pick overall. But you're right that there's no guarantee of anything. And if you end up with, I don't know, Cam Reddish, that's not great. Let's talk this out. If the Knicks had offered KP, Hardaway, and the number one pick for Davis, I think I would have taken that if I'm the Pelicans

because then I have two of the top five picks basically. Then I can flip KP for something else. You got to trade Drew right after that. Yeah, you got to trade Drew. But I would just take KP as the asset to flip somewhere else. I think he, like, I don't see any reason why they shouldn't just wait until the Celtics and – until the Celtics and – What would you have wanted the Knicks –

tell us what you would have wanted the Knicks to do. Just because you're a logical person. Not trade. He's a again, he's a restricted free agent. I don't care if he's unhappy. So what if he's coming off?

He's got zero leverage coming off an ACL injury. Let some other schmo team out there be like, OK, here's here's an offer. And then fucking match it. You know, let the market set itself and then match it.

He has he can't leave. I don't care if he hates New York, hates James Dolan, doesn't like the players. He can't go anywhere unless you want him to go. But what if KD I'm just guessing KD says

I'm coming but you have to get the second Max guy. Well that's what this deal is about. But I'm saying you're the GM and KD, Rich Kline and whoever, they text you and they say Jason, that's what, I mean, that's what this deal is about. But I'm saying you're the GM and Katie, Rich Klein and whoever, they text you and they say, Jason, he's coming, but you have to get the second max guy or he's not coming. That's the Knicks tampering is the only way that this is good. Like the fact that they have been, that's the only way that this makes sense. And this can be justified. Are you okay with that then? Am I okay with- But would you have done this trade if KD told you that? No.

There's no guarantee in it. Like he could change his mind. The guy's a flighty. Give me something concrete. I'm not going to like tear down my franchise because you say something's going to happen. But you're in a meeting and all the people that work for you are like, KD hates it here. He was a dick in the training room again. He's not resigning here why wouldn't we use him to create cap space because kd texted you and he

said he's coming again like when when the endorphins when the endorphins of the next warriors championship are coursing through durant's uh you can't endocrine system is he really gonna be like you know what i'm gonna give this up again to start all over in New York. Maybe that happens, but you don't know it's going to happen. I don't think that's enough to tear down your team unless you have an ironclad fucking promise. I just don't like Dennis Smith Jr., I think, is my biggest problem with this trade. If they had dumped all their contracts, gotten a first back, and then gotten Marvin Bagley, I'd be like, okay. I at least like Marvin Bagley.

I think he might be a 2010 guy. And now, obviously, you're getting KD, but the weird thing is just not getting anybody that might be an all-star. It's for Capspace. It's a pure Capspace deal. If they got Kyle Kuzma, it would be better. If they got Josh Hart, I would like this deal better. I like Josh Hart. Everyone likes Josh Hart. Nobody likes Dennis Smith Jr. What could I have

offered you for KP that would have made you happy? You know, like really good picks. Jalen Brown in the Memphis pick? I would think about that. You think about it. Especially not seeing him play. That's way better. Yeah, I would think about that. I would love that. But you're not getting rid of your contracts.

I mean, we'll figure out a way to get rid of the contracts later on. See, I'm kind of mad at the Celtics. Maybe they got frozen out of this because of the whole Nick Celtics thing. But it feels like that Memphis pick is going to be a top three or even maybe a number one pick. But in like 2021 because it's got protections on it. It goes and it goes. But it's like there's no roadmap for them to be good. Any team in the AD Derby feels terrible right now because

they could have just gone and gotten KP for much lower. Significantly less. So do you think the Lakers could have? What could the Lakers have done? Like I said, I literally think Kuzma and contracts is way better than Dennis Mendenhall. Would you have taken Ingram

and expirings for Tim Hardaway and KP I'd need more than that but that's like you could discuss it what if I took Courtney Lee too I'm giving you

expirings and Ingram one more rotation player but if you're the Lakers that's a start that's a start but if you're the Lakers you can't do that

because then you don't have the extra guy right right you couldn't you're getting rid of your cap because then you don't have the extra guy, right? Right. You couldn't sign. You're getting rid of your cap space for whoever. You couldn't get AD, but you could get Kyrie if he's coming home. The big unknown is how healthy is Kristaps. If he's going for, what is it, one cent on the dollar,

do we really know what he's going to be next season? I guess that's the other thing that, that's the other X factor, is do the Knicks think that Kristaps is much more fucked up than we know? Yeah, we discussed that a little bit. I mean. I'd always heard that, now who knows, Phil Jackson, when you leave a situation, you're going to say bad things after. But Phil Jackson was always telling people his legs are, he's no chance, his legs aren't going to, he's not built to play. I mean, you know, Phil Jackson wanted to trade him for Okafor so it's like yeah

because of his prominent butt I don't wish that on Chris Stapps who I loved watching but I hope weirdly at this point

that turns out to be true you know like wow this is so it's very dark it's very very dark that's the only relief

that we have you know because of him not making it all the way yeah is this the worst trade of the century for the next 20? We have a 19 year century now.

I mean, as it stands, Eddie Curry is still one, right? Using Chris Stapp's Porzingis to clear cap space is insane. You used him as a sweetener to get rid of bad contracts. That is fucking nuts. It's nuts. You know what this reminds me of? When the Clippers treated their unprotected firsts for, like, they got rid of Baron Davis'

contract, they ended up getting Chris Paul, but that number one pick became Kyrie Irving. And so you could rationalize it as we got Chris Paul, he changed our franchise for the next decade or whatever, but you gave up a much better player on a cost-controlled contract. So with that philosophy in mind,

would you be happy if the Knicks become some iteration of Lob City but don't win a title in the aftermath of this? No, that's not good. It's like G League Lob City. That's not good. This is a big swing move. This is not a base hit move. This is a home run move.

This is a we have to get KD and Kyrie now. If you steal first, then get out of here. That's terrible. What if they got KD and Kemba? I mean, that's interesting, but Kemba is not the— What about KD and Jimmy Butler? I think Justin and I both love Kemba and want to see him play in the garden. I just think that's interesting as well.

I don't think those two guys can play together. Mood's improving. I know, but here's the thing again these are all wishes and dreams and promises here's the other thing if KD let's say it does emerge that KD

through channels through Kleinman whoever signal to the Knicks that he's coming and then he changes his mind like it was a drunk text. He was sober. What will the narrative be? The narrative will not be, wow,

Katie really fucked the Knicks. What an asshole. It will be, haha, the Knicks stepped on a rake again. Yeah. There is absolutely zero. There's zero liability for Katie.

If he changes his mind, nobody will blame him because the Knicks are trash. This is why you don't put yourself in this situation. And Kyrie might change his mind a third time after changing his mind the other time. I just want to clarify one thing Justin said over there. The Clippers did not clear a cap space for Chris Paul because I was a season ticket holder when that trade happened. That was purely being cheap.

They gave away their number one pick to give basically they paid the Cavs to take Baron Davis with a number one pick true and at the time

it was like you're not putting protections on the pick there were no protections on it it was like well there's this rule you can't

the only way to come back to haunt us is if the pick was number one because I think they had like the 8th best record and then the pick was number one and they I think they had like the eighth best record. And then the pick was number one. And they never should have had a chance to get him anyway because of the trade that was nullified with CP in the first place.

So, you know. Get. You know, sending him to the Lakers and everything. That was a pretty bad trade. In retrospect, what was it? Luis Scola? Scola, Lamar Odom. Lamar Odom, who was like in a, in a crack house in a year. No,

I think actually it was the trade that put him in the crack house. Like he really went into, he went into the emotional tailspin after the trade. Was he ever a Knick? No. No, but he's from New York. He did have Baron Davis.

Baron Davis was in the Knicks and his knee exploded. Yeah. So Eddie Curry's second worst trade ever now? I mean, that was like, I talked about this already, but where do you put the Mellow trade in the constellation of this stuff? Because I really

feel like that trade kicked off seven years of awfulness, and that has essentially led to this. I agree. Excuse me. It's been 19 years of awfulness. You're right. It's 75 years of awfulness. However... That was a bad trade as well, especially considering

I dare you to sign with Brooklyn and we'll pick you up in free agency. They had that option. Yeah. At the same time, they did get Mello back. Who's coming back in this deal? Dennis Smith Jr. and DeAndre Jordan. And it's terrible. There's no play.

There's no one coming back. They're getting nothing but calf space. What would you do if DeAndre Jordan gave an interview and was like, this is my town now and like really own being a Knick. I've always wanted to play here. I can't wait to watch him give Ennis Cantor level, you know. Oh, this is more run for Ennis Cantor now, right? They need to waive DeAndre, Wes Matthews, Ennis Cantor right now.

What if Somebody needs to break Dennis Smith Jr.'s leg accidentally so that he can't play for the rest of the season. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense. They need to keep tanking.

We didn't talk about this, but this is an unintended consequence of this trade. So many buyout guys. Yeah. I mean, the Knicks have three guys who,

if you're just adding them for two months for a million dollars, if you can get DeAndre Jordan actually trying again, that's not a bad 10th man. Fucking Warriors are going to sign both of them. Wes Matthews as a 10th man isn't bad. He's your

5th man, he's bad, but as your 10th man, no. And then Cantor, I still believe in as a playoff guy. The right matchups coming in for five minutes. He's Greg Monroe. And then, who are the other buyout guys? Miritich, if they don't trade him.

You mean in the league? Yeah. There's like a lot of dudes this year. So all these teams that are like, oh, well, they're only like five guys, six guys. I think it's like

an Iliosova-Bellinelli situation with Philly last year where you're just plucking dudes and all of a sudden now you have a bench. It's a dark day. Jason doesn't want to hear this. I don't want to hear it. The Knicks are liars. They're just plucking dudes. And all of a sudden now you have a bench. It's a dark day. Jason doesn't want to hear this. I don't want to hear it.

The Knicks are liars. They're just straight out liars. They lied about what, like the leak is a total lie. They used Woj to leak this absolutely spurious story about KP getting mad. It's bullshit. Oh, that was the last topic.

Does Woj just have too much power now? Like, can you imagine in politics if there was just one Woj and he just controlled all the information that everybody read at all times? This is basically what's happening. 31st franchise. Yeah, when I said that as a joke. We thought Shams was going to, you know, kind of close the gap, but it has not happened. Not even the power of Woj could overwhelm the Knicks' stupidity, though.

I mean, this is not Woj's fault. This is like a bunch of people who don't know what they're doing and haven't known what they're doing for 25 years. James Dolan has given us zero evidence that he knows what he is doing. I'm not positive he knows who's on the Knicks. Who are your favorite Knicks right now? Lonzo Trier, Noah Vonley. I loved watching both of them.

Everybody else? Vonley has been good. He's been pretty good. He's been good. He's like a great, if he's your bench big, he's great. I think Moutier is still there. He's fun once every five weeks. But he's like a don't give me the 13th win accidentally guy by going off for 45.

100%. I remember I wrote a column for, even before Graylin,, and ESPN in like 2009, 10, about the illusion of hope. That this was the NBA. This is the biggest thing about this century is these teams now, instead of just trying to be good, trying to sell their fans, you know, this summer we're going to have cap space. This has basically been the next strategy three different times now. Right.

It's just when they figure out how to tank and start a rebuild, it's like they immediately hit the reset button on the reset button and do this, which just doesn't make any sense. It's all going to be worth it if you have KD. Sure.

Kemba and Zion. And Nox. We forgot Nox. And Nox in October. That will be worth it. Maybe this is God's way of making you... Okay, so let's just... Knox, Nilekina, DSJ.

Those are three NBA players, quote unquote, on the team. Only one of them made my trade value list. Right. Even honorable mention. I took DSJ off my honorable mention a couple weeks ago. Knox has been really up and down. He's been up and down, but I think he's trending upwards. I feel DSJ off my honorable mention a couple weeks ago. Knox has been really up and down.

He's been up and down, but I think he's trending upwards. I feel good about him, yeah. Mitchell Robinson jumping out the gym. Jumping out the gym,

but an absolute mess. He needs to just figure out how to Can't play more than 20 minutes a game. Can't. And then you're banking on Kevin

Durant and Kyrie Irving and a top three pick. That's your team. That's your team. It's not bad. It's not bad, but it's not. Yeah.

I mean, it's a playoff team. Yeah, you're the Wizards, essentially. Oh, God. Let's say they sign Kevin Durant in the summer. Is that not, is this whole affair not absolute ironclad evidence that tampering exists if they sign him? 100% tampering. No, but it's like. LeBron bought two houses here last year.

Everybody's like, oh, that's weird. No, but this is like, they moved an exciting young player who's a restricted free agent for cap space in a deal that makes no sense in any other world except for there being tampering. Yeah. Are you familiar with the posting and toasting Twitter account?

Yes, Seth Rosenthal, my good friend, started that. He said, I would have been elated to trade him for Anthony Davis. Are you familiar with the posting and toasting Twitter account? Yes. Seth Rosenthal, my good friend, started that. He said, I would have been elated to trade him for Anthony Davis. Not so happy to trade him for DSJ, though. Yeah, it's not good. And DSJ is just like, he's the guy that's going to win us too many games. Yeah, you're almost going to. Eddie, too.

Remember the movie Eddie? Eddie, too, should be just kidnapping him the last 10 games of the season making sure he doesn't ruin your pick he's the guy that's going to miraculously win us a game that absolutely cripples our lottery

chances towards the down stretch of this season Justin most incompetent NBA franchises right now Knicks won

or New Orleans won New Orleans New Orleans won I mean how do we feel about the Kings now I feel like they've kind of

back up they're way into a good team. Other than not taking a transformative once-in-a-generation superstar in the last draft. Pretty bad. Things are going great. How about this? The Lakers? The Lakers are bottom five right now.

None of their good players are good. Yeah, that's what you said. What was your quote about the rich kid? Yeah, they fell ass backwards into good picks. Didn't develop them. They're basically rich and lucky. They were basically the Sixers without the PR staff. They had their own version of the process, which was,

Kobe, just shoot a lot for two years. We'll get some bad picks out of it. And then we'll tank and we'll get in. Yeah, they were born on third base. They just didn't hit a triple. Yeah, I like you know, I like Ingram's offside but he strikes me as a guy that we're going to be hearing for the next five years how he's about to turn the corner

and become something else. Jeff Green. Yeah. I still don't know what playmaking Jeff Green. What position he is. And I know positions are totally different now but I just don't I can't get a grasp of what he is because like in my head I know like Jalen Brown I get what he is. He's a wing. Tat't, I can't get a grasp of what he is because like in my head, I know like Jalen Brown, I get what he is.

He's a wing. And Tatum, like he can be a three and a four, but Ingram seems small for, you know, in my head, I thought he was like

going to be the 6'11 skinny guy, but he doesn't seem 6'11 on the court. He was supposed to be Durant. That was the model. He's definitely not, he's not physically imposing at all. It's almost like he's

a shooting guard. Right. And he did better last year getting to the rim, but now he's like completely thrown off. I don definitely not, he's not physically imposing at all. It's almost like he's a shooting guard. Right. And he did better last year getting to the rim, but now he's like completely thrown off. I don't know if it's just because his shooting isn't going, so that's filtering down into how he's getting to the rim or if it's like LeBron playing next to him, he doesn't really know how to operate because

he is a ball handler, I think ultimately, and he's like tasked with playing with like four ball handlers at the same time, and that hasn't worked. Also, it became kind of like this overdone story that he needs to add weight. He needs to add weight. He needs to add weight.

We heard that story 30 times. We're three years down the road. He still needs a lot of fucking weight. So I just don't know how that's even going to come. It comes down to just body chemistry. I have a question for the Knicks fans here. Oh, great. From Posting and Toasting again. Here we go.

The Be Nice to KP crowd can get out. The new management was presumably very forthcoming with him. He made his choice. He couldn't take New York. He's getting zero praise from us after accomplishing absolutely nothing here. Hard disagree. Yeah, hard disagree. Okay. I think it was very interesting to watch the Knicks and their lackeys in the tabloid media attempt to leverage KP being actually quite thoughtful and reflective about where the Knicks stand as a franchise against him.

He was always saying, I want to understand what the plan is going forward. I want to know what the path is to wing. I want to, I want to, you know, I want to be part of that. And they leverage that and turn that into, oh,

KP's doesn't like the direction of the franchise. He's upset. Of course he doesn't like the direction of the franchise. The franchise sucks. Like prove to him that you don't suck anymore. I think there's a lot of revisionist history that all of their problems were Phil Jackson. And getting rid of him, they turned this new page to this new generation. Maybe they're all bad.

Nobody even knows who runs the team. Maybe Steve Mills is actually just as bad. I feel like I was KP when I was at the Boston Herald in the 90s. I was like, this place sucks. I should be getting more run. You got to get rid of some people I don't like the culture here and they were like

fuck off you're on the worst shift Steve Mills so wait you're saying that the Dallas Mavericks are the sports guy on page two Dallas Mavericks were ESPN they saved me

Steve Mills I mean I think we forget this Steve Mills is the guy who when the Knicks all of a sudden didn't have a GM post Phil Jackson's firing like stole the keys to the car

and signed Tim Hardaway Jr. to, like, a ridiculous contract out of fucking nowhere. The minute Phil was gone, Steve Mill did that. He said, I'm going to make my mark right now. That was insane. To ward off someone else coming in. So I'm pretty sure he's bad. In real time.

We knew that was a horrible, horrible signing. I remember when they did that signing, I did the tweet of like, getting him for 7.5 million, smart move. Wait, what? It was like 75. Three years, 7.5 billion. Sounds good.

It's one of the worst in the league right now. Well, we really, the Knicks just give us content, man. It's awful. I hope tampering exists. I hope they're tampering. Just, this is my immediate reaction to this. And maybe this is where we can kind of round this off. I thought that this was the biggest risk in NBA history.

I was trying to think of another deal that was riskier than what they've just done. It's a huge risk. It's a gamble. It's essentially like you're— Yeah, considering they could have traded him in June when everybody knows what their draft pick is and done a reboot

you're basically hoping and praying you're getting two free agents from this that's all it is not just two free agents but you need two top flight

max free agents and if you don't get that then the fans are going to be upset if it is even if it's KD and Tobias Harris I think people are going to be like

what the fuck was this I don't think upset is the right word I think it's like I think the fans what the fuck was this? I don't think upset is the right word. I think it's like, I think the fans would actually revolt. I mean, if they don't get those guys, this leads to those guys getting fired in like July 15th. If they don't get Durant, if they get Durant and then they have kind of a weird like 48 win team, it's kind of a fascinating thing because is that enough to just say, I reject this team? If you have like the third most exciting score in the history of the NBA?

How amazing would it be if Durant before the Golden State game today was like, I don't know what everybody's talking about. I'm resigning with Golden State. I don't know where this is coming from. Honestly, that would be devastating. And again, like the garden should be burned down at that point. Just burn it. Burn it to the ground.

Guys, Brooklyn is pretty good. I don't know if you want to. I don't want to hear that. I mean, they've just been very smart. So that was the only thing. very smart. There were some funny tweets in the 15 minutes when it seemed like there was going to be a KP sweepstakes. People were like, and look out for Brooklyn.

It's like, they will never trade KP to Brooklyn. That is never happening. Never ever in a million years. Guys, this was fun. Sure. Maybe not fun for you, but I enjoyed it. We're going to be back tomorrow with Sal. We're going to do a little Super Bowl preview.

That'll be like basically a half podcast. So we split this up for you. Thanks to Justin, Jason, Sean Fennessey, Chris Ryan. Check out the Ringer NBA show tomorrow for more. Check out NBA Desktop. Yep. Were you guys filming when this happened? We were filming.

You can watch it break across my face in real time. Oh, seriously? Yeah. Oh, that sounds amazing. All right. So you can watch that as well on NBA Desktop on all the ringer platforms. Until then. All right.

That's it. Don't forget to come back tomorrow. Me and Cousin Sal doing part two of the Super Bowl Props Pod. You can hear part one on the Against All Odds podcast. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to go to ziprecruiter.com slash BS. Thanks to the Rewatchables podcast and House of Carbs. I was on both of those podcasts this week.

Thanks to Sonos. Don't forget they are the smart compact soundbar for your TV. Go to sonos.com and learn more. Order your beam today. S-O-N-O-S dot com. And don't forget about NBA Desktop, which we usually put up in the mornings on Friday. Jason's real-time reaction.

That's going to be hilarious to this trade. Hang in there, Knicks fans. At some point in life, it's going to get better. Maybe not this life, but maybe the next life. See you tomorrow. I don't have.