The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Setting Suns, a Bucks-Nets Mega-Battle, and Winslet’s Great Career With Rob Mahoney, Kyle Mann and Wesley Morris

Episode Date: May 28, 2021

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Kyle Mann and Rob Mahoney to discuss the Lakers’ Game 3 win over the Suns, the Nuggets’ win over the Trail Blazers bringing the series to 2-1, another Bucks blowout win over the Heat, a look ahead to the possible Round 2 Bucks-Nets matchup, and more (3:10). Then Bill talks with Wesley Morris of The New York Times about being in Madison Square Garden for Knicks-Hawks Game 1, before discussing HBO’s limited series ‘Mare of East Town’, Kate Winslet’s stellar performance, and her career as a whole (53:00). Finally Bill’s daughter, Zoe Simmons and her best friend Ella discuss Olivia Rodrigo’s album ‘Sour’ (1:49:00). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kyle Mann, Rob Mahoney, and Wesley Morris Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's good, everybody? I'm John G. Stremski, host of New York, New York with JJ, the first podcast on The Ringer and Spotify dedicated to you, the New York sports fan. We've got episode three nights a week, plus bonus episodes whenever news breaks. So make sure you follow the show on Spotify. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well

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Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com as well as The Ringer Podcast Network. Two newish podcasts that we launched recently, Flying Coach Season 2 with Peter Schrager and Sean McVeigh you can find that on the ringer nfl show as well they had a jets coach and a packers coach together on the potter's little four-man pot it was great and then uh we also have no skips with shay serrano and jinx they're breaking down some of the iconic hip-hop albums of all time missy elliott got her turn this week if you like music

podcast by the way 60 songs that explain the 90s. They did the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Under the Bridge recently. Rob Harville did a great job with that. That's an excellent podcast if you love 90s music. Check out Black Girl Songbook with Danielle Smith as well. Coming up on this podcast, Kyle Mann and Rob Mahoney

from The Ringer. We did a late night session because we knew Denver, Portland and Lakers Suns, some stuff was going to happen. We stayed a late night session because we knew Denver, Portland, and Lakers Suns, some stuff was going to happen. So we stayed up late and we're going to break down all the storylines that we liked from that.

And then my old friend, Wesley Morris from the Grantland days, now at the New York Times, talking what it was like to be at a Knicks game, a Knicks playoff game, what MSG was like, because he was there

for one of those. And then we broke down Kate Winslet's career because the season finale of Mayor of Easttown is coming up. Great show. And then we broke down Kate Winslet's career because the season finale of Mare of Easttown is coming up. Great show. And then finally, I asked my daughter Zoe and her best friend Ella to explain the Olivia

Rodrigo phenomenon to us. So they're going to do that. It's at the tail end. If you don't want to listen to that, you don't have to listen. If you don't want to hear Wesley and I talk about Mare of Easttown, which we really don't. It's really Winslet-centric. But there you go. It's all stacked toward the end, so you can escape anytime you want.

Fun podcast, though. I think we have to bring in our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we are taping this. It is 10.08 Pacific time. Rob Mahoney is here from the Ringer. He's on the West Coast. Kyle Mann, basically on the East Coast, staying up late, had some coffee. He's ready to talk hoops with us. We're going to talk Lakers

Sun and Nuggets Blazers just happened. Let's talk Lakers Suns first. Rob, is this a different series if Chris Paul is healthy or are we looking at the same result right now, 2-1 Lakers? I mean, I think it's definitely different. And you can tell just by how much of a rock fight this is

for the Suns. I mean, that second quarter for both teams was pretty brutal. You know, we've seen some really high-powered offenses in these playoffs so far. That was some Stone Age shit we saw from the Lakers and the Suns. And you get the vibe when they're going through these long lulls. You know, they just need a little more guidance. They need a steady hand like Chris Paul. And you can tell, I mean, look how far one minute of juice from campaign

got them in this game. Right. Imagine if you got another 15 minutes of good Chris Paul. I think we could be talking about a very different series. My counter to that, Kyle, is that it seems like LeBron has decided he's only going to play hard for a half in every playoff game. And the other half, he's just on cruise control.

This started in the Golden State game, the playing game. In first half, he was so kind of detached. People were like, is he hurt? What's going on? Is this it? His father's time caught up. In the second half, he flipped the switch. Did the same thing tonight. Is this just what he's going to do until we get to the finals? Yeah, I mean, we've just increasingly gone further and further this direction.

I mean, we've gone from he just kind of coasts through part of the regular season and then turns it on in the playoffs, and now he's just waiting longer and longer. But, I mean, like our buddy Jonathan Charks has said this a bunch of times, that, like, you know, LeBron is like a wait-and-kind-of-see-the-board type person. He's famous for taking a beat. I think that that's one of his greatest strengths, is that he's 6'9 and has incredible vision and all that stuff. I think what really, really puts him ahead of the pack is that ability.

It's that ability to see the board and make adjustments in real time. There's been a micro and macro thing about him him making adjustments where it's like he can make them within a game he can make them within a series and he's made them within his career and I think that's what makes him so special but I think Rob's right like for Phoenix this has been the thing that's been going on with them for a few years where they've really, really needed more creation around Devin Booker. You know, they brought in Ricky Rubio last year to supplement him and to take some pressure off of,

of, of Booker. And CP3 is just sort of like a super max version of that, like a souped up version of that, a better version. And I think that he's him gutting it out, I think is good for their morale, but I don't know that the outcomes would be different.

I think that the Suns would be a lot more coherent and competent, but I don't know that the outcomes would be different. I think the outcome is the same. The difference would be how much LeBron had to exert himself. It's like the old saying about Milton Berle, pulling out just enough to win. It's a penis joke for the younger listeners out there. But LeBron's been, I think he's just in that mode.

I think he sees the finals and it just seems like anytime he wants to flip the switch. At the same time, I feel bad for Chris Paul. I was looking at, I was trying to figure out what was legitimate about his playoff history with the injuries and what wasn't. So in 2014 when they blew that Oklahoma City series, he wasn't hurt, but he wasn't healthy either. That was the first time

he was looking a little gimpy. 2015, he was hurt. He made the shot against the Spurs in Game 7 on one leg and played one leg that whole team ended up missing two games in the Houston series came back played 2016 broke his wrist

2018 famously the Houston hammy injury at the worst possible time as they're taking control of the series and then the shoulder injury this year I'm not going to say he's injury prone but I am going to say he's a smaller guy and this this is what happens, Rob, when, when you're banking on, you know, somebody who's six feet tall. Um, there's not a storied history of this. If this is your main guy,

he's not the main guy in this team, but I think he's the most important guy. And this is where it gets dicey when he's a free agent this year, if he wants to be. And if you're like the Knicks, are you going to pay him $40 million a year when I just listed five postseasons that he was kind of breaking down during? If you're Phoenix, do you feel great about that? What would you do? Well, I think Phoenix has kind of drawn themselves into a corner with this in a good way. I mean, they're in such a positive place as an organization. And I think so much of that has to do with the professionalism that Paul and Monte Williams have brought there together. And guys like Jay Crow, I mean, there's other additions

too. But I think they kind of have to keep him for the trajectory of their franchise. But you're exactly right. And Kyle touched on this in his video too. Players of Paul's size and the need to stay healthy, I mean, they have to make adjustments to their diet. They have to make dramatic changes throughout their career just to make sure they can stay on the floor for the games that matter the most. And then if you're Chris Paul, you get breaks like this. And I think this, you know, this was by far the healthiest we've seen him since this injury. Like his mid-range shot looked about as normal in that first half as we've seen so far. He still wanted absolutely no part of taking a three. He was still passing out of situations

that we would normally see him iso bigs or do that rock back step into the corner to hit his three. These classic Chris Paul moves, he just doesn't have that right now. And I mean, that has to scare you if you're the Suns and you're talking about like long-term prospects, but he's so important, I think, to where that team is mentally and culturally right now

that you just kind of bite the bullet on it. he can't wind up into his shot like he he like you definitely could see a difference between him being like flat-footed and just powering up into his shot and him like wheeling up into it like with momentum you know like uh and i was even noticed i was really really paying attention to what he was doing like in terms of his gate and like how he you know which hand he was doing things with There was even one time where he like threw an inbounds with his left hand underhanded. It seemed like just to avoid using his right hand. Like he was passing the ball like across his body a lot. And I think ultimately the question is, does it, I mean, like morale wise, it's nice to see that your hero is still appears to be the guy, you know, it's like seeing him weakened and stuff like I guess it's good for their resolve.

But does it ultimately hurt them? Like, Rob, you wrote about this earlier in the week. Like the Lakers aren't dumb. They went back and watched that game and they realized that they overplayed him in that game. It was sort of the Willis Reed thing or the Scottie Pippen decoy thing, or it's just like, they have some time to think about this now. So it's like, does, does it ultimately hurt the,

the, the sons to go with him? If, if they're going to, cause there were times where like Schroeder played like all the way up. Did you, there was a play in the second half where Schroeder came like all the way up to Booker almost to,

to really bother one of Booker's big weaknesses, which is passing over extra help when it comes. And I think that's a big problem for the Suns. I wondered if maybe he should have just rested if there was any chance that he could get back to 70%. I'm glad you brought that up. I would have sat him tonight. I don't

think they're going to win the game anyway. The Lakers were seven-point favorites. Usually when the series flips and goes back to the other team for game three, that's usually the game they win. I just would have put all my eggs in the game for basket. And then the second piece of that, you know,

try to see if there's some Ewing theory potentially for one game where you could, you know, Hey campaign, here are the car keys, buddy. Not, not get dead.

Don't, don't they have Javon Carter? Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's dust him off have Javon Carter? Yeah. Yeah. Let's dust him off. Javon, get ready. We're using you for 20 minutes tonight. Like, let's go.

Let's see what we got. And if we lose, then we have an excuse. To me, this is the worst case scenario of like, it's Chris Paul. He's somewhere between 55 and 64%. That's not beating the Lakers. But, and I think you guys both see what I see. The Lakers know they have this series now.

Chris is healthy. Maybe it's a little different, but now the Lakers, Rob, this is the second straight year of this. This just lined up for them. Now they get to play the winner of that Portland-Denver game I just watched. Neither of those teams are Western Finals teams.

Well, we'll see how much it lined up for them because even in this game, there were multiple injury scares that Portland-Denver game I just watched. Neither of those teams are Western Finals teams. Well, we'll see how much it lined up for them because even in this game, there were multiple injury scares with AD, with Contavious Caldwell-Pope, with Dennis Schroeder appearing to turn an ankle too. And that's on top of LeBron and his kind of, you know, whatever you make of his situation

and whether he's flipping the Jets on and off or not. I mean, it's a long road between now and whoever makes it out of the East and those teams are going to be really good. I think for the Suns, I just keep going back to the end of game two.

That was kind of their shot. Those last couple minutes, the game was tied or right there in their grasp and they just could not generate offense running high pick and roll with Booker and Aiden

with AD blowing it up. And that, you know, because if they had gone out of that game 2-0, then I think this conversation about resting Chris Paul becomes a much easier one.

You have a little more latitude in doing something like that. But with the way things broke, I just don't feel like they must not have felt comfortable. And that's unfortunate for their ultimate fate in this series.

Davis was really good tonight. I'm creating a new stat for you guys. The Anthony Davis triple-double when he has at least 30 points, at least 10 rebounds, and at least two injury scares. He's the only one who doesn't.

I think he had an injury scare in each half. I think that might be the average rest of the way, but there are two times where it's like, oh my God, he's out. Each half of his career

for his whole career of every single game. That's been going on since he was here, man like he would fall down and you would think him and kid gilchrist both you they cow used to joke it was like it looked like they'd been shot i mean he would fall down sometimes and we'd be like is he dead i don't like he could be dead like he just this just mangled pile of limbs going down all the time he was just one of those guys when schroeder went flying in the last minute, if that had been Davis, I think he'd still be down.

They'd be picking him up in pieces. But he was really good tonight. And this is why I thought the Lakers were going to win the series because of this Davis mismatch. They really, the Suns only have one guy to really throw at them. Am I a sucker for feeling more impressed with Anthony Davis when he comes back from the knee injury scare and is still awesome? Like, am I just falling for it, basically?

Pretty much. It's almost like a soccer player. Yeah. You know, when Suarez is rolling around like he's been shot and then two minutes later, he's fine. I think it's just part of the package with him. Yeah, the NBA game feels increasingly

like it's going that direction. I was talking to you off-air about that, that it's just constant. Just constant, constant, constant. Falling down, getting calls for that.. I was talking to you off air about that, that it's just constant, just constant, constant, constant, falling down, getting calls for that. I don't want to pick on them for that, but it's just all the time. But AD hit a shot. When he really got going in that third quarter, he hit a runner against –

now, Aiton played pretty good positional defense several different times, and it just goes to show you that AD hit one, and he was fully extended over the top of DeAndre Ayton. And Ayton has like a 7'4". I mean, he is like up there in the sevens wingspan. He's a long dude and he was all over him. And it's just the Lakers did this to Miami last year too where they get into some of these matchups.

And the fact that LeBron is able to create at his size just allows them to do this where they just look like the one seed in like the NCAA tournament coming up against like the OVC champs

or something. Like the size difference, like there's just lob after lob after lob and you're just like, I can imagine it'd be hard not to feel

a little bit daunted and to me, it felt like towards the end of that game, you know, like there was some, you know, indulgence going on I'd say at the end of that game. you know, like there was some, you know, indulgence going on, I'd say, at the end of that game. LeBron was having a pretty good time.

It felt like they were kind of like trying to take Phoenix's heart tonight a little bit, like at the end of that game to me. This is something that LeBron added starting in his second Cleveland stint. This bully ball aspect. Right. When he got when he added that physicality in the 2016, 17 range, and he can really punish you once he really got comfortable down there. Um, there was some Crowder stuff going on that dates back to Cleveland. Well, really dates back to the Boston Cleveland series, but then they make the trade Crowder goes to Cleveland and has a really

unhappy couple of months with them. They ended up sending him packing. And I think he's still been bitter about it. So Crowder thinks there's this rivalry with LeBron. LeBron probably doesn't even remember playing with them, but Crowder's always like chest puffed out. Let's go. It's go time. And finally LeBron in the fourth quarter, he was like, all right, dude, I'm just going to, I'm bully balling you and took over two days in a row. And this is why LeBron is still LeBron. Mahoney, is this your next book this is why LeBron is still LeBron. Mahoney, is this your next book? You think LeBron versus Crowder, the rivalry, like three, like a Borg McEnroe type of thing?

I mean, that's not one book. That's a three book deal right there. That's an epic. It'd be a good book cover. Last son's point. DeAndre Ayton was 26 of his first 29 in this series. Mahoney, is this stock risen for you or is he exactly who you thought he was? Because what we're seeing is a guy

who's going to shoot 65%, protect the rim. He's going to botch a couple nice sneaky passes, but he's going to try really hard. And I think he's an asset. Oh, it's risen. I mean, we've reached the point in the series where I genuinely think one of the Suns' problems is they can't play DeAndre 8 and 48 minutes. That's crazy. That's crazy that a young big would put himself in that kind of position. you work in the league, if you're a coach of James Wiseman or Wendell Carter or Isaiah Stewart, these young bigs who you're trying to figure out, okay, where do they fit in the modern NBA game?

What does that template look like? It looks a lot like either what Aiden's doing or what Jonas Valanciunas is doing. So those are kind of the models for more traditional bigs being effective in the playoffs right now. Aiden, I think he's just bought into his role so perfectly. He's picking his spots. He's really patient, even on those catches when he knows he's got lots of Biggs around him. I've been super impressed with just his finishing ability. Yes, he will mishandle a couple of those

passes a game in close quarters, and that's tough, but for a player of his experience level to deliver against this kind of matchup, I don't think there's a lot of precedent for it outside of superstar level bigs. Kyle. Yeah. I thought Luca, Luca not going in that spot. I've thought was egregious, but I also thought it was at least defensible because it seemed like Aiton had a chance to be a very good center, maybe even an all-star. And I was like, I get it. I get why they did it. I personally would have taken Luka

100 times out of 100 because I think perimeter guys win titles, but I get it. The Bagley one I didn't get and I thought it was absurd and ludicrous and then the Hawks trading on the spot was just as bad. But Aiton, the Luka thing could have hung on him.

Right? Yeah. And it feels like we're past that. I feel like this guy now is a top 25 trade asset. I don't know. Is he a Kyle Mann video at some point? It could be lurking down the road. It feels like in the next year.

I've done a couple videos about him. One of them pissed Suns fans off pretty good. Well, I was like critical of him i feel like we've gone through a process with him where he's had some sort of self-realization that's gone on i'll speculate maybe that's been monty williams and chris paul i mean there were quote there were quotes from him coming out of arizona coming out of high school where he was just talking about how he wanted to play the four and all this stuff and it was just kind of everybody just kind of looked around the room like,

what are you talking about? And it's like, you're a five. You have an opportunity here. But I mean, he's kind of gone away from this obsession with like, I have to shoot threes. And he's really embraced his role. Defensively, he's improved. He still runs like he's wearing a mech suit, I think.

But he like, defensively, he's gotten a whole lot better. I would turn the dimmer down just a little bit. I mean, I know people are like really, really excited. Defensively, he's gotten a whole lot better. I would turn the dimmer down just a little bit. I know people are really, really excited, and I've been pleased with his poise finishing. Positionally, defensively, he's been great. They can't take him off the floor because they don't have any backup bigs that can really support him or keep their continuity.

There's just that little thing that would make me even more impressed if he could just competently like 35% of the time attack a situation where he has an advantage, where he could leverage his size. Because there's been a few, because A, because Phoenix desperately needs him to do that in this series. They need someone to create and generate some offense because he's shown he can skip pass. He's shown that he can kick it out. But there were a few times tonight where it was just like he should be able to take his man and he just like didn't even want to look at the basket he just like got rid of it immediately and and i remember game two when he

had the layup and he didn't realize it and he kicked it out and the whole sun's bench was yelling and then he ate and was pointing to his head like anytime a player points to their head i'm always i've always become dubious that's always the... Larry Bird was never pointing at his head. Michael Jordan was never like, oh, that's my bad. I point to my head. Yeah, exactly. And I think the absence of... I think what we've seen is that Phoenix was constructed to...

They've been one of the best execution teams all year. They went from one of the worst sideline out-of-bounds, out-of-bounds teams to one of the best. That's just a sign of their execution. But when you take away, they're just like a galaxy where you took away the planet in the center. There were all these things that were orbiting that planet that are now being relied on too heavily.

Like, Campaign, I'm sure he's coming up to talk to Monty Williams on the plane saying, like, hey, I'll take these reps. I'm ready. That's not going to put him in a good position. And I, you know, it's really making Booker pay the price a little bit too, uh, because he benefited a lot from that whenever they'd run those sort of weak side pin downs where he'd come around with momentum and go into his shot. Those things aren't there as much cause he's getting doubled. And, and I think that Paul going down really hurts eight and two, but,2 but they're in a heck of a position here man because it seems

like LA's got momentum now and I don't know they're going to have to really pull some smoke and mirror stuff I think to well Mahoney LA has more than momentum they get to play the winner of that Nuggets Blazers series that we just watched game three of can't

say either team knocked my socks off you look at like the nuggets, they really, really needed an Austin rivers. He checked to get out of this one today. Austin rivers. Wasn't on a team for 10 weeks. You look at Portland and it's like Nurkic fouls out.

There's no plan B. They really have no bench other than Carmelo. It doesn't seem like their coach trust. And it just seems hard to fathom either of these teams being in the final four. What do you think? Well, when you look at either of them, they just don't look like teams with options as you laid out. Once you take Nurkic off the floor,

it's either Cantor, which they figured out in this game, is not very viable against a lot of playoff opponents, or you're going very, very small with ronde hollis jefferson or rob covington and that can get you so far but against nicole yokich not so far it turns out uh and the nuggets look exactly like a team that's missing several of their lead guards you know you can squint at this game in particular at some of those austin rivers threes and see a little bit of jamal murray that's about as close a comparison as you're going to get. There was a point with, I think it was about four minutes left when this game was still very much up for grabs, where Rivers looked off Jokic posting up at the nail

and took a three. I almost gasped on my couch. I loved it. That's why he's been on six teams. Well, I mean, it's also why he has the Austin Rivers game and helps them win this one. You know, it's both sides of that at once. But just the gall to look off the MVP in that kind of moment. I mean, they need a little bit of that, but I don't know that they're getting nearly enough of everything else

in terms of guard play to be competitive in a long-term situation. I'm glad you brought that up. I loved it. Austin, I got to watch him go into Clipper games and was just always shocked by the amount of confidence he had. At all points, even when things couldn't have been going worse, it just seemed like he had this innate feeling that he was the guy. And it's like he was playing with Chris Paul, Blake Griffin,

and it just didn't matter to him. What were you going to say, Kyle? I interrupted you. I would say you could like hook Austin Rivers up to a lie detector test and be like, are you better than Jamal Murray? And he'd be like, yes. And it would like not register at all. They'd be like, well, he checks out. Yeah, that's truthful. Not being deceptive. No, I mean like Rivers, that's just who he is i mean kg told those stories about him like being you know really competitive in practice and getting you know pissed off when he lost nba players as like a 16 year old kid it's just who he is and i think

i like it too just because i love guys who are rationally confident like that but it's like you need you need a little bit of that in a playoff series sometimes when you have these lulls and you have to kind of just quilt, patchwork these offensive performances together whenever things aren't clicking. I mean, some of the best teams ever have that kind of stuff. You'll have a game where like, oh, Mike Miller hit six threes in this game and we won the title because of that.

You need stuff like that. And I think it's hilarious. This matchup to me is funny and it's going to continue to be like this because Portland's strengths that is matchup to me is funny, and it's going to continue to be like this because Portland's strengths, that is wanting to dribble shoot in the pick and roll, directly conflict with some of Denver's weaknesses. They've attacked Compazzo and Jokic just relentlessly in this series. So every game, in my opinion, is going to be like this.

I could live to be proven wrong on that, but it's a really funny matchup for that reason, in my opinion. I thought the series was over after game one. It just seemed like Portland's backcourt was so far superior to Denver. It seemed insurmountable. And now I don't know what to think after three games, but I think you're right. It's like two teams that their strength is the other team's weakness. And it's clearly a seven. The two series that are clearly going seven games are this one and Nick's Hawks just feels destined to go seven. I would say just for what I, and that one will be the case of it'll be a seventh game

and you, you just won't believe the Hawks that let this go to seven. Whereas like, you're way better than the Knicks. How did you guys let this happen? Randall didn't show up, but it does feel like, there's no other way. Rob, is there another series that could go seven? Those feel like the only two, right?

I mean, if the Clippers dig their way out, I guess that would be one scenario. But otherwise, I think these two do. They're not digging it out. These two do feel like they're earmarked for seven. I will say this in Denver's defense. I don't know if you guys had this experience But otherwise, I think these two do feel like they're earmarked for seven. I will say this in Denver's defense. I don't know if you guys had this experience watching this game,

but as I'm watching Jokic, he was kind of playing with his food with some of these small ball matchups. There were moments when I was kind of trying to figure out what he's doing, why he's deferring to Compasso or Rivers in this particular way in certain moments. And then you just realize that he's having a quote unquote underwhelming game in some ways. And he's just a megawatt talent who still produces at an off the charts level in those games. Yeah.

So I don't, I don't even know that we've gotten the, the knockout Jokic game yet. These have been kind of slow and steady. Pick my spots, play with the defense is giving me kind of games for the most part from him if he clicks into that gear for a couple of games at a time i could see this thing being wrapped up sooner than later and maybe that's how you know if the

nuggets do have a way to really contend with some of these other western teams in future rounds it's got to be something like that formula i texted both of you in the fourth quarter and said, Jokic seems a little bit off tonight. He finished with a 36, 11, five. And I'm watching, I'm like, what's wrong with Jokic? He doesn't totally seem to be on his game, but I agree with you. He hasn't had the monster game. And then the other one, you know, Lillard was 37 tonight, but he, you know, he's 15 for 31. It wasn't, it's weird to say this, but it wasn't an awesome 37. I think if you're taking over 30 shots and 16 threes, the bar, I think is 40 at that point. McCollum hasn't lit it up either.

McCollum's going to have one game out of the next three, right? He'll have the game when he has like 45 or he just lights it up. But I don't know what they do with this bench situation, which they threw two first round picks and a lot of money at this last summer. And it doesn't seem like it really paid off. And then on the flip side, Aaron Gordon, every time he does something in this series, it's like, oh, Aaron Gordon's on this team.

I totally forgot. I guess we have our question answered about Aaron Gordon, right? We always wonder, like, I always wondered as a Celtics fan, what would happen if different situation, better teammates, this might be who he is. What do you guys think? I think it's, it was, I did have that kind of realization tonight too when he did a few things I was just like oh we've literally

never seen this from him in a playoff series that was actually a significant moment just now like he well yeah I guess he did get

some with some early round matchups but he's never been on like a team that like was competitive like this I it's interesting because he's providing

it's gonna kind of go overlooked, I guess, just because their guard situation has fallen off so much, you know, that like the defense has really helped them. I agree. Yeah. I mean,

he's, he's coming up there at the point of attack when he can, but it's just, they just keep aiming away from him because there are so many other areas to go. I really like compasso. I like just how unbothered he seems by, by the matchup. He's, he's a pretty fun player to watch. Mah really like Compazzo. I like just how unbothered he seems by the matchup.

He's a pretty fun player to watch. Mahoney's beaming. You brought up Compazzo. Mahoney just lit up like a Christmas tree. I love every slow motion replay interaction we get between Dame and Compazzo. Dame is about as unflappable a guy as you'll find in the NBA.

He does not seem to be having fun. He is over that shit. And Compasso is exactly that kind of player in all the best ways. Super fun to watch. I mean, if only he could make a layup in traffic, I think the Nuggets would really have something going in this series.

But in terms of the pocket passing, the pesky defense, I mean, he's a perfect playoff character, Fakou Compasso is. So I'm, he's a perfect playoff character. Fakou Kampazo is. So I'm glad he's getting his moment in the sun even if some of that moment is Dame dropping jumpers over his head on his way to, as you were saying,

a 37 that I mean, I would kill for a not so spectacular 37 in a losing effort. It seems like a pretty good night, but for Dame, the bar is just that high sometimes. Yeah. Kampazo Caruso in round two might be the NBA Cold War we never knew we needed. I don't know what's what. You know, and by the way, you know, the Clippers have taken a beating.

I'd like to think I led the charge by pointing out or at least one of the first pointing out what cowards they were to avoid the Lakers after two years of shit. But they inadvertently allow the Lakers to play theards they were to avoid the Lakers after two years of shit. But they inadvertently allow the Lakers to play the winner of this series when the Lakers get by the Suns. It's lined up for the Lakers. We're going to take a break. We're going to come back

and I have a very important question for you guys. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember.

You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you could still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right. So the Bucks beat the living hell out of the heat tonight. And what was scary about it

was they didn't even play that well. They didn't even shoot that well. They won by 29. I realized tonight watching it, the Laker fans aren't going to like this. Bucks-Nets might be the finals. We might have the finals in round two. And I went back and I looked up

when was the last time this happened. And really the last time this happened was 2007 Sun Spurs, the Robert Horry show of that whole series where it was like, it was just clear at some point, whoever was going to win that series is going to win the finals. Now in this time around, you have LeBron, you have Davis, you have the bigger Lakers. I'm not counting them out, but I just think the Bucs and the Nets

are the two best teams right now. And I've seen everything I wanted to see from the Bucs. I thought they're going to win. I wagered on them. I expected them to win, but they've demolished the heat. The holiday thing is so important. Rob, what's been the thing that's jumped out to you

in these first three games? I love it. I'm basking in the glow of all the Bucs respect on this pod right now. This is a beautiful moment. I figured you'd like it. I do like it. I mean, for me, the collision course between the Nets, the Bucs, and the Sixers was always the most interesting thing all throughout the season leading into the playoffs.

This is what I was looking forward to is these two rounds and how those three teams end up playing each other. I think what's most interesting about this matchup tactically is just the way the Bucks have completely flipped the Giannis wall against Bam. And they've completely neutralized him in a way where I almost think last year, the Bucks didn't fully appreciate how good Bam was,

or at least they didn't fully appreciate what made him so good. And now they've really teched in on his strengths and weaknesses. They're really playing him about as effectively as anyone can. And when I knew the Heat were in trouble in this particular game is when Bam had Bobby Portis on the baseline about 15 feet from the basket, and Bobby Portis just backed all the way up. And Bam had nothing to do.

He had nowhere to go. That is a gigantic problem. And, you know, Kevin O'Connor did a great video about this for The Ringer today, kind of outlining what Bam's next steps can be. And I think that's got to be a huge part of the Heats formula going forward. But the reality is,

the Bucks have had the three best players in this series so far. Yeah. There's just no way for the Heat to win if that's going to be the case. And I think that was kind of lurking in the background of all the noise going on with Milwaukee all season.

That was a team that they had injuries. They drew Holiday out with the health and safety protocols. They were trying all this new stuff with their defense and their offense, trying to figure themselves out. Some of the players on that team felt really confident with the way they ended up in terms of the standings and the win-loss and

some of the bigger metrics, given everything that had been going on, saying, if that was the noise of our season and we still ended up doing pretty well, what is it going to look like when all the numbers, all the experience with Drew and Chris and Giannis on the floor say this team is really freaking good? And now we're seeing what that looks like when those guys can trade off and at the same time just completely lock the heat up defensively, which I think is the most important part of that game. Is Bucks Nets the finals for you, Kyle? Well, there was another one you forgot in there too. What 2018 Warriors Rockets was pretty, was that the 0 for 27 game, the one? That series was pretty.

So that was conference finals. The next year was round two and we felt like that was going to be the finals, but then Durant never came back and Clay got hurt in the finals, but in the moment it was like, wow, round two, this is the finals and then Toronto wins

the title. So that's the rub with this question, but it does feel like this could be considered retroactively in September. Like we'll look back and we're like, yeah, Buck's Nets. That was it. I mean, it's going to be incredible. I can't, I can't wait. I'm kind of just going to echo what Rob said in that just, you asked him what stood out and Rob said, I love it. That was his answer. I do love it. I can't help myself. He just, I love it, and just started hitting his head. Yeah, so, yeah, that's going to be must-see TV in terms of basketball

if you're just a hardcore basketball fan, regardless of who you root for. I mean, the Lakers fans are going to take umbrage with your question, I think, for sure, because it's going to be. Good. Fuck those guys. Yeah. When I said yeah, I wasn't agreeing with Bill. it's going to be... Good. Fuck those guys. Yeah. When I said yeah, I wasn't agreeing with Bill. You guys can aim that at Bill, not me. Anyway, so I...

No, I mean, I think it's a case of Milwaukee is... It's two things at once. Milwaukee is going hardcore this direction in a positive direction. And Miami, like, the fact that when you take away that uphill gravity of, like, coming up And Miami, like, the fact that when you take away that uphill gravity of, like, coming up to guard Bam, like, their whole offense was predicated on that.

It's, like, literally just, like, Kalima reaching in and pulling their heart out. Like, nothing is going to function if you can't get the pressure uphill to guard Bam. Like, because a lot of their three-man game was Bam comes up and sets a screen and the big guy's up. Well, when Lopez hangs back, those three-man actions are just rolling downhill like a grease trap into Lopez, and he's just walled up standing there,

and that just negates it. I think on the other flip side of that is that Milwaukee is just much more balanced, and this was like the simple thing that like that's what a secondary playmaker does for somebody like like Giannis is that like their whole thing was like just aiming downhill relentless pressure downhill and then kicking to shooters well I was watching tonight man their offense was so fluid they're always like one switch away from having like a great player drive to the basket that can create and they didn't have that last year because whenever bled's a they had like

older shooters out there that couldn't attack when you were watching them play miami like they throw it everybody would just catch it standing flat-footed and like they would never get any separation and it's like tonight i was watching them i think every shot they took in the first quarter was in rhythm and if they didn didn't hit it, they got the rebound. And then they got another one. Miami just looked lost. They couldn't generate the offense. The guys that would orbit Bam in the sense that we were talking about,

they looked less confident like you were talking about. And yeah, they just really, really struggled to score. And it was eye-opening. It was an ass-kicking. All-out ass-kicking. My Celtics buddy, Hench, texted me at halftime and was just so upset about, at that point, Dragic,

Duncan Robinson, Hero, and then Jay Crowder in the first half of the Laker game. They were combined eight for 35. And he was like, where the fuck was this during the Easter finals last year when all of these guys

were just unconscious. And it does feel like we're going to look back at that bubble run they had where it was like, Dragic, that's the best he's looked in, I don't know, five years, something like that. Robinson and Hero were both having these moments and they really miss Crowder. The Crowder to Arizeguodala drop off has been massive, but I'm, I'm actually getting retroactively more bummed out about that Celtics

series. Hero has that crazy game. Iguodala has the game and the lat, the clinchy game. He hits five threes. Like you just go back and then bam, who we couldn't figure out how to defend that whole series of Milwaukee solved it in five minutes.

And now Bam has to go back to the drawing board that KFC put on that video. But I got retroactively bummed out about it. If you're the Heat, what do you, first of all, do you feel like you missed an opportunity to trade for somebody who wasn't Oladipo? Like, should you have gone in for Lowry? Because I kind of feel like this is okay.

I would rather have not made that trade. I didn't mind the Oladipo trade. I don't think I would have gone all in because I don't think it was going to make a difference anyway. They weren't going to beat Milwaukee this year. What would you have done, Rob? Well, they might still get Lowry. You know, there's always, Especially with Miami in particular and the way

they work as a free agent destination, there's always a longer game in play. And they're a team that historically has been able to move salary whenever they need to move it to get whoever they need to get in those situations. So I wouldn't count them out of any kind of big picture plans in terms of who's available. But yeah, the Oladipo thing was not going to move the needle in this series. I was actually thinking about that during this game. If you the Oladipo thing was not going to move the needle in this series. I was actually thinking about that during this game. If you have Oladipo catching in some of these situations

that Hero or Robinson or maybe the one spot would be if you could take Trevor Ariza off the floor a little more and have someone more dynamic in that position. Because having Ariza out there is really what,

it's what allowed Milwaukee to hide their worst defenders in a lot of cases. They got to sneak Bryn Forbes on the floor to run pick and roll with Giannis. That inverted Bryn Forbes, Giannis pick and roll is just brutal to guard. And the only way you can do it is you have to attack Bryn Forbes and they couldn't do it. That's one thing the Nets will do relentlessly. And that's going to be the big difference in that kind of matchup is with these role

players on the Bucs. If the Nets are able to kind of pick and choose who they want to attack a little bit more and go at those guys with three of the best isolation players in basketball,

can Bryn Forbes stay on the floor? Can Dante DiVincenzo hold up in a series? I have no idea, but I don't think it would have made a difference one way or another

what Miami did. They weren't getting out against a Bucs team that's defending like this. The reason the thing's funny because it's almost like an actor that you see in a movie that in your head is younger,

but then you realize it's like, oh, that guy's 51 now. It's like if you saw the Friends reunion on HBO Max, it's like, oh, Matt LeBlanc is now a middle-aged guy in his mid-50s. Wow, that's weird. I just saw him on Netflix the other day, and he was young. Ariza's 35.

Just in the last four years, he played for Houston, Phoenix, Washington, Portland, Sacramento, Miami. This is just in the last, since the 2018 season. He hasn't been good in two years. And it should have been a much bigger red flag that heading into these playoffs, he was playing 30 minutes a game. But it's like, oh, it's Trevor Ariza. He's a veteran. He's been around. It's like him and Iguodala.

Against a team that's as athletic as the Bucs are, that's suicide to play those guys the amount of time they're playing. And they had no plan B. And in a weird way, this probably works out okay for them. But it's funny how Milwaukee goes from this traumatic bubble loss to now the sweep, lock it down. Not only were they sweep, but I could see that being a 20-point game. Kyle, they've won the last nine quarters, Milwaukee, dating back to the OT in game one. Every quarter they've won. This has been a demolition yeah they they it seems like they have really taken this personally where i was just

kind of like i like to watch the lead kind of like where it goes you know because you don't want to they haven't even let like they haven't even let miami get moral victories like they they they like won't even let the lead get down to 20. They just kept pushing it out and out and out and like attacking. And what really struck me about this game is that they have some really like legit shot creators. I mean, like on this team, like, I mean, Middleton probably still doesn't get enough credit for how great a shot creator he is. Yeah. And you know, holiday, I think it should just, he's, he's fantastic.

But what really struck me is that like throughout this game, they were just running their offense. Like they have some guys that can go get you late clock buckets and their offense was so unbothered that they never, it never even came to that. So I like, it just shows me that like they have another gear potentially that they could go to against some of these better teams that they're going to face. And the Brooklyn thing is interesting because you know, yeah, they're going to Brooklyn's going to be able to pick against some of these better teams that they're going to face. And the Brooklyn thing is interesting because, you know,

yeah, Brooklyn's going to be able to pick on some of the things that they do, but Milwaukee offensively is playing so well now because they're so dynamic because they have creators that, like, they're two, three, four spots that they're going to force Brooklyn to guard them. I mean, you know that for sure. I'm glad you brought up Holiday because that was the final question before we go that I had for you guys. True holiday underrated for years,

the go-to guy for the, that guy's so underrated example, the advanced metrics community loved him more than I think the average fan playoff performance was a little spotty. It was always a question of, well, if he was so good, why, why didn't him and Anthony Davis translate to a title? I think just what we've seen this season and even just in this series, I think we can officially say Drew Holiday is properly rated. I think everyone's like, wow, Drew Holiday is fucking awesome. So I think we have to retire him.

Rob, who is now the new champion of, I can't believe how underrated that guy is. People don't understand how good he is. Who takes the torch? See, I don't know if I'm moving on until we really get the choruses of people from the streets chanting Drew Holiday is fucking awesome. So we're not there yet. No. So we need him to shut down

Kyrie in round two for a game and then that's officially when it happens? Yeah, we need the full internet quorum when he shuts down Kyrie. That'll be the moment. Or when he guards Harden and Kyrie in back-to-back games and shuts down Harden in game two

and Kyrie in game three. He's going to have some of those possessions, too, where they're screening for each other and he's guarding whoever has the ball for the full 24 seconds between those two guys and it's just unbelievable. He might have been the best player

in this series so far. I agree. And some of it is, you know, there are the moments where, I mean, I call them like the not Eric Bledsoe moments where it's, you know, the ball swings to him

and it's clear this is his moment to do something in a position where Eric Bledsoe would have not. That's, he's been great and delivered in those, been a great playmaker, great driver. But for me, it's all the other stuff.

It's the times where you're not really paying attention to what drew holidays doing. And then he veers in and cuts off a fast break and completely saves a possession, or he digs out a loose ball, or he's just flying all over the place and making reads. You wouldn't expect him to read. It's the unexpected stuff.

That's really sung for me. And I, I don't know that he could be much better through these couple games so far. Rob didn't answer my question, so Kyle, you have to answer it. Who's the new guy? Who gets the torch from Drew? I was going to say Nemanja Behalica.

That was my answer. He obviously came out and Milton Burrell, you know, the fourth quarter of that game. Yeah, he did. He let everybody know if I had played more, this series would be a lot different. Because I'd be averaging 45 minutes a game. Yeah, I don't know who the new underrated guy is.

It might be somebody like Jonas Valanciunas. He's been getting buzz lately. Might be like sending his resume to the underrated committee, being like, hey, man, nobody ever talks about me, what's going on here. But if that Utah series goes longer and longer, um, who knows?

Well, Mike Conley made his all-star game. Like we can't even put him on the list anymore. Mike Conley gave it the torch to drew holiday. It's true. So I don't know who it is. If, if people,

uh, send, send Kyle and Rob tweets. I don't check my Twitter. Send, send those guys tweets. If you have nominees for who the next

underrated guy. Before we go, are we going to have a Clippers funeral tomorrow night or a rejuvenation? Somewhere in between. We're going to limp

into another day. It's not a thing. So you think it's going to be one or the other? So you think the Clippers win tomorrow night? I think they're going to win,

but not in particularly inspiring fashion. Yeah the other. So you think the Clippers win tomorrow night? I think they're going to win, but not in particularly inspiring fashion. Yeah. Interesting. I actually think the Mavs, I think Luka at home with 15,000 people in a playoff game with fans for the first time in his life cannot be discounted as a monkey wrench

for tomorrow night. Yeah, he's going to be going for it for sure. I mean, Rob and I were talking about this earlier that the Clippers, offensively, I was looking at some of their... They've generated, what was it, the second most open threes? Offensively, they've been fine.

Oh, Bill, do you know who's generated the fewest open threes in the playoffs? Could you take a guess? Who is it? The Boston Celtics yeah I just thought you should know that little stray there for you but yeah I I'm gonna be really curious to see if

Luca can do this like because he is he's having kind of a the series has has really opened my eyes and he it's really amazing because I was an extreme believer in him and for him to compete like continue to like defy an extreme believer even like the post game stuff that he's added i feel like i might write or make a video about this just like the adding the post game at 22 is bonkers i mean it's just bonkers. Are we sure he's not like 29?

I don't know, man. He's very cherubic. What happened in those first two Clipper games really had no correlation to pretty much anything that's happened in the league. Yeah, that's... The sophistication was so unusual and so fucking bizarre and surreal.

I couldn't get over it because the Clips fully expected to win that game. Like Kawhi was like, we're winning tonight. Here's my 30-point first half. Luke was like, cool. He didn't even budge. Go ahead, Rob.

I was going to say, I just think he's adapted to the cadence of playoff basketball about as seamlessly as anyone we've ever seen. And certainly in terms of modern players, as you were saying, Bill, the level of sophistication

and control over a game. This isn't a guy coming in and playing, like, good energy minutes, having, like, one great night and then he kind of tapers off. Every game, every possession is completely unsolvable

against some of the best wing defenders out there. I don't know... I don't know that there's that much precedent for a player like that because even the crazy, you know, ball-dominating playmakers we've seen in the past, they have some growing pains.

The James Hardens, even the LeBrons have growing pains in a way that we just haven't seen Luka have yet. Maybe those are reserved for later rounds and tougher opponents. Crazy that I'm saying tougher opponents when they're playing the Clippers right now. But that's the reality of the echelon that Luka puts the Mavs in. Well, he did something really truly extraordinary in game two. He made Porzingis seem

happy and excited to be there, which I didn't think was possible. There was like smile and energy. If he could rejuvenate Porzingis, the fucking sky's the limit for the Mavericks, right? Extremely good vibes. Extremely good vibes coming out of the Mavs right now.

Did you notice that Porzingis was like congratulating teammates? He had good body language. Yeah, good vibe. He really did. He might have saved Porzingis. It's more impressive than the triple doubles. Alright. You can read Rob on TheRinger.com. You can check out Kyle

on... When did you post the last video? Today. Today we did a Chris Paul. We did a really, really timely thing about Chris Paul's durability and longevity that was out today. So go check that out. Uh, anyway. And both of you guys

are on the Ringer NBA show as well, which is cranking during the playoffs. We are going to be reacting on that show pretty much every night. And we also have the mismatch with KOC as well. Good to see you guys. Thanks for staying up late. Thanks, Bill. My pleasure. powers your scale with no preset spending limit. More cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days and the ability to reach further with access to over 1400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum.

All right. Wesley Morris is here. My old friend from Grantland. He's at the New York Times now. And we're going to talk about Kate Winslet, but you went to Nick's game one. You were at MSG with 15,000 people and a very festive. They lost that one. They won game two, but you were with people again. What was it like? It was really something, Bill. I mean, I will say as a Philadelphian who has no fealty whatsoever to the New York Knicks, I'm a big fan of 1990s era Knicks. Yeah. Just culturally, right?

I don't even know. I mean, I guess I saw some important playoff games, but I don't know what was going on with the Knicks in the 1990s. But just, you know, I went with my friend Greg, who is a big Knicks fan. He wore his Knicks t-shirt and everything.

We, you know, it was just, it was one of those things where like, I definitely felt like I was in a foreign country even though i i've lived in the city for almost eight years um i you know this is a class of man that i'm like intimately familiar with but just being deluged with all of them at the same time um and just the exp just the hope that was... The excitement was so strong going in there. And it was really special.

Just high-fiving strangers, getting beer spilled on me because people were really excited. Nobody was wearing a mask, and that felt great because the assumption... You couldn't get in if you didn't have a vaccination card or proof of vaccination somehow

but you know my the only downside besides the actual loss and there was that moment where Derrick Rose it's he tied the game I think I don't know if they led in game one and if they did it was like for like one for two for two points for like 10 seconds

but Derrick Rose I think he either tied it up or he got them ahead for two points for like 10 seconds um but derrick rose i think he either tied it up or he got them ahead for a second with like 30 seconds to go if maybe he tied it up he tied it up um given you know that last shot at the end um ties it up everybody goes crazy but not quite out of their minds because i think they knew which ray yep they knew it. They knew they probably weren't going to win. So I would have much rather traded in game one for game two because the energy that night, I mean, the dip was so deep, but the climb out of that reservoir of just, you know,

despondence was so much greater. I'm glad you're here to talk about this specific subject as we relate it to the Knicks. You know, Spike Lee, most famous fan they have, been courtside for 30 years. But now he's old, right? He's a little long in the tooth. He's still celebrating like he's a 30-year-old guy.

But I'm not worried he's going to get hurt. He's trying to jump up and down, but he is only getting one inch off the ground. I feel like he might pull an Achilles. I think for next year, if the Knicks are going to make a longer run, I think we got to go personal trainer, trainer, yoga, Pilates, maybe some working in the sand to build up like his calves. So when he's, so he can get a little elevation and not look like he's going to teeter over. I'm just concerned. I'm concerned about his welfare.

Spike, we need you. Stay healthy. Don't get hurt, Spike. You got movies to make. Don't blow out an Achilles. Spike, are you finished with the Viagra musical is my question. Do you have time?

I think Spike Lee would definitely just go for permanent life-altering injury to get the Knicks a championship at this point. Right? Don't you think? Yeah, but I'm just worried. I don't want him to get hurt and then, like, be on crutches sitting in his seat like a sad old guy, you know, during a playoff game.

He's just, pace yourself, Spike Lee. Don't jump all the time. Maybe do one jump a game. He's just, pace yourself, Spike Lee. Don't jump all the time. Maybe do one jump a game. I'm just worried about him. Well, can I ask a question? Let's say that, I mean, all right. Let's just play out two scenarios. Let's say the Knicks actually get out a round one.

I would be, just for the record, I would be surprised if that happened. I think Atlanta has a better team, but they the Knicks if they can just get it to game seven, the crowd will win that game for them. Yeah, I'm agreeing with you. But let's say that, you know, let's say they let's say they lose in round one likely to happen.

Does the team stay together? And if they do stay together, I feel like, I just feel like this cannot, this has to be something that lasts and can be built upon. Because I just, I don't know,

I'm not saying anything terribly deep to anybody who is a Knicks fan and listens to you talk about playoffs. But I, having witnessed what I witnessed on Sunday afternoon and evening i think that that team owes those people those fans so much that they i just have never i've been to a lot of sporting events i was in toronto when they beat Golden State to get that title

and the place was like delirious. The place was shaking. The stadium was rocking. Even that night does not compare to just the depth of

hope and excitement just for this to have happened at all. The gratitude. I just feel like this is a city that's been so fucked by the management of that team. And they deserve so much better than they get. And the idea that you're just going to...

I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen. But breaking that team apart and selling it for parts is just... That to me would be unconscionable. We were talking about this on John Jastrzemski's, um, we, I did locker room with them last night from the New York, New York pod. And we were talking about how long we, you have people in that crowd, right? There's a difference. There's a gratefulness that goes with the fan base when they just haven't even had a good game to go to, and now it's like,

you know, you have somebody who took their son when their son was six, seven to like one Carmelo playoff game. And it was like, not even that great. And now the kids in high school and it's like, never really never been to a good Knicks playoff game where you have somebody who's 25 years old, who has no memory of even like the 1999 finals or any of that team. There's this, as you said, gratefulness crossed with just euphoria.

Just that you're at the game. You're like, oh my God, I'm at a good Knicks playoff game and you can really feel it. I watched you in the Knicks in late May. Holy mother of God, what did I do to deserve this? Now, I will also say, Bill, that these are the same people who when the game was over

or outside, not everybody, but like in pockets, I heard a lot of Trey is gay. Oh. You know, I heard a lot of Trey is gay. And it was one of those things where like I was leaving with Greg

and I was like, Greg, what do we do? He's like, you got to keep walking. You just got to, you got to, we just got to go home. I'm going to go to my place. You're going to go to your place. But I turned around and I was like, you know, I thought about just being like you guys. Come on. What if Trey is gay? It's

2021. Who cares? That's a slur. That's a meaningful slur. I mean, but I let it go. I didn't pursue it. I'm not going to defend that. It's not defensible. It feels like, and we saw it with the popcorn with Westbrook,

it feels like the fans are almost learning how to behave in public again. Everyone was holed up for 15 months. It's like, hey dude, when you're in public, there's things you just can't do. You're not in your house anymore, like on an internet message board. We're all human beings again.

Let's go. Let's figure this out. Yeah, I didn't hear it in the stadium. So I didn't hear it during the game. So there's that. There's that. You know, you talked about, you asked me about whether they can break up the Knicks and what the plan is with that.

Just quickly, I do think they, they feel like as an organization that they've stumbled on a blueprint that works where it's like, they're going after specific types of people, these hardworking culture guys who just want to be on good teams and want to put in all the work that don't have, you know, an attitude, don't have these crazy expectations, don't have an entourage, don't have an agency, you know, trying to force somebody's hand, people that are just, that just kind of get it, that just get the concept of like, all right, you're part of something, put in the work.

And I think those are the guys that are going to go after. Like, I don't think this is going to be a situation where they trade RJ Barrett this summer for some, you know, sometimes unhappy superstar who on paper makes you better, but now brings this baggage with them. I think they're going to be really careful how they do this and try to keep it open so that you saw LeBron tweet last night about how great that crowd was, which was ironic. Cause it's like, that could have been his crowd. He had it. He had it in his hands in 2010, decided to go to Miami. But the players all saw that crowd.

And they're going to, at some point, there's going to be a really good player who's a free agent or last year of his deal who would be like, I want to be part of that. I want to be part of that atmosphere. So they've been able to flip the Dolan narrative in basically a year. Yeah. Where the Knicks seem like

a fun place to play again. And if you had Durant and Kyrie becoming free agents this summer, guess where they would go? They would go to the Knicks. Now, would you want those guys? I don't know. I don't know.

What is that? I mean, I guess, okay. Keep what you got and don't do that thing where like, you know, my favorite analogy for anything that's too much in the world is the T-bone stake that gets brought over to Fred Flintstone's car

and flips the whole thing over during the closing credits of the Flintstones. Yeah. Don't T-bone stake it either, right? Like, to your point, like, get the right people. I don't know. You know better than I do who the right people are, but I just feel like... Well, there's Kawhi possibilities now. Oh, interesting's Kawhi possibilities now.

Oh, interesting. Kawhi's now... It's just like if the Clippers thing goes south, he's a free agent. He could just be like, this didn't work. I'm out.

Where do I go? And it's like, come here. Come to the Knicks. That's straight up exciting. And I will say, when you and Dave Jacoby were talking the other day

about how nobody in New York cares about about the nets relative to the knicks yeah um that is real that is a real thing and it's so crazy but that's how deep the next thing is and i was talking to some new jersey friends who were like do you guys what do you do and i was talking to my friend gregor about this too like what do you do? And I was talking to my friend Greg about this too. Do New Jersey people transfer to the loyalty and the passion? They're not going to the Knicks, obviously. So I guess they're Nets fans.

But it's just such a difference in terms of, like, I live down the street from Barclays, and I have yet to experience traffic nightmares. I mean, people are at the games, obviously, but just the energy is so different when you go to Penn Station or MSG.

I don't know. It's just wild. You're talking 75 years. You're talking generations. My great-grandfather was a Knicks fan and shit like that. You can't compete with that. It'd be like if there was a second baseball team in Boston. The team would have no chance.

I think the Knicks haven't been successful, but that doesn't mean they're not beloved. And it's also the biggest city we have in America. They have the most basketball fans. They've just been really unhappy and laying low the last 20 years. We'll take a quick break and we're going to talk about Kate Winslet.

Yes. All right. Coming back. So you and I both love Mayor of Easttown on HBO and we can do some spoiler alerts for that for that show at the end. And if people have I need a spoiler alert because I'm one behind. I have not seen I've seen the first five. I have not seen episode six, obviously. And I've nobody seen that. OK, well, we I'm one behind. I have not seen I've seen the first five. I have not seen episode six, obviously.

And nobody's seen episode seven. I'm not a huge fan of guessing what happens on a TV show and then three days later the show happens. I'd rather talk about Kate Winslet. So we were texting and I was wondering and you're the right person to answer this.

Is this the best actress of the last 30 years? So that takes us to shit. That takes us to, yeah, no, I was, I was,

I kept this in my pocket. I wanted to spring this on you. So that takes us back to 1991. So we have the following people in play. Um, man, we have Nicole Kidman. We have Kate Blanchett.

We have Francis McDormand we have like first 10 years of her career already happened Glenn Close and then we have first 15 years of her career happened Meryl Streep I'm removing Meryl Streep because Meryl Streep is the greatest actor or actress of all time take Close and Streep out different eras.

Um, I want to keep, I mean, for me, it's an era thing, right? You might not even have to go 30 years, right?

So let's go, let's say I was thinking mid nineties. So 30 made is a round number, but she comes in. She comes for when heavenly creatures comes out. Perfect. Okay. So we'll,

we'll say from mid nineties on. So just for the people listening who don't know the Kate, cause we don't talk about movies. Like we talk about sports. She has four best actress nominations and three best supporting nominations. She won one best actress, but it all starts in 94,

94, 96. Just heavenly creatures, sense, sensibility, Hamlet, and then Titanic and blows up. Yeah.

And I think what's so fascinating about her career. And I know the reason you love her the most is Titanic happens. That's a fork in the road. Your career can go one of two ways. Yep. She turns down Shakespeare in love. She turns down in, in the King.

She does hideous kinky and Holy smoke, which are two of the most fucked up movies she could have possibly picked. And she's just like, I'm pointing my flag. This is who I am. And this has been her career ever since. That specific choice says everything. But when you think about her,

we could talk about her versus all the other actresses, but just sum up what she's been since the mid-90s. I mean, well, I mean, the fork in the road is a really interesting, well, first of all, technique, right? She's got secretly good technique,

but mostly what you get is a kind of sensuousness, at least in the beginning, right? I'd say heavenly creatures all the way through maybe Little Children in 2006 and The Holiday perhaps. No, The Reader. Oh my God. All the way through The Reader. So 94 to 2008 when she makes The Reader and Revolutionary Road. Revolutionary Road, not a comedy. Not a comedy.

Neither was The Reader. Neither was The reader. Neither was the reader. Neither was the reader. Kate Winslet's thing is this combination of sensuality and intelligence. And for a lot of that 14 years, she was a body actress. Meaning her physicality was incredibly important to the role. Or she, I mean, not to the role

as written, but to her conception of what the role was going to be. She, I remember, I had a sort of intellectual contest with myself about who was more bodacious in terms of like the way their body was used in movies,

her or Jennifer Lopez, who also became a huge star, like before, you know, like during the Kate Winslet run, but where like the body was as important to the thing as, as, um, as anything else.

And nobody thinks about it. You watch a movie like Holy Smoke or a movie like Hideous Kinky or even Titanic, her physicality or Jude, which is like the adaptation of the Thomas Hardy book, not a great movie, not a great adaptation of a great, great book. But she's really good at it. Sense and sensibility there's so much about what she's doing in these movies that are that's about the people in the movies desiring her but also her sort of owning the looking that people are doing at her um and she's just she is a very sexy person and you know for those 14 years the way that those parts work were you know the character the character's sexuality is incredibly important

to the role itself um and the characters you know like like figurative and literal nudity is really important to these parts, too. Which is a big thing of our playbook. She's completely unafraid. Yes, yes, yes. To do whatever it takes in a movie. And I think out of everyone we've had in the last 30 years, she's the one. She's a 10 out of 10 on whatever that contest is. Well, let's put her in the class, right? The class

is Kidman, who you mentioned, Gwyneth Paltrow, Marion Cotillard, and I'm missing a person. Frances McDormand. And then there's some other ones that should be in there, but like Viola Davis, who we've discussed, just didn't have the parts

until the last seven years, but I feel like could have been. Yes. And then she just hasn't had enough of a career of great roles yet. Right. I think that, you know, Kidman, Paltrow, Winslet, Cotillard. Well, Paltrow's our big miss with this because she went the other direction. she could have had it and she

didn't want it complicated feelings about didn't want it but for our purposes yes didn't want it but there's another person who's really obvious who I'm totally missing who is the same age as like all these women are basically the same age

Blanchett there we go you mentioned her right okay that's the person who's like the, all these women are basically the same. Blanchette. Blanchette. There we go. You mentioned her, right? Okay. That's the person who's like, now we're done. We can, we can. And that's her, that's her rival, right? If you're going to look at like this generationally, they, they basically have the same nominations. You, you could have flipped them in certain parts, not all of them.

Um, and I think she treats her career a lot like Kate Winslet did, where she's just like, I'm picking movies and roles that appeal to me. I'm not trying to be a commercial actress. Right. But I think the difference between Blanchett and Winslet is that the perception of Kate Blanchett is that she's a very serious actress. And I, too, kind of buy into that idea a little bit when I see her in something like Thor Ragnarok and I'm like wait what she's in this

what's she doing here whereas Kate Winslet I mean I would be surprised to see her in that movie too but I also would have seen her in you know Hideous Kinky which is a really I mean I don't know I feel like all jane campion is kind of

underrated at this point uh we're not hideous kinky sorry holy smoke holy smoke holy smoke holy smoke is like underrated jane campion the movie is kind of goes it goes off the rails but it basically is her versus harvey kytel in like a spiritual death match um Like a fight for Kate Winslet's character's soul, essentially. And I just think that Kate Blanchett during this period is following a much more classical

mold. There's a path that exists for a person like Kate Blanchett. At least until the Bob Dylan movie. She does the Todd Haynes I'm Not There movie. And then Notes on a Scandal. Oh my, did you see Notes on a Scandal?

Yeah. Okay. I think when Cate Blanchett kind of goes a little trashy, which Notes on a Scandal, if no one listening has seen this movie, treat yourself. But I think Winslet was always down

to be whatever the movie needed in a slightly grittier way than Cate Blanchett. And we don't think of Cate Blanchett, we don't think of Cate Winslet with the same sort of toniness as an heir to a Meryl Streep, for instance. We don't think of Kate Winslet in the same sort of with the same sort of toniness, um, like as an air to like a Meryl Streep, for instance,

we don't think of her that way. Um, whereas Kate Blanchett, we do. Um, and mostly a lot of, a lot of the reason for that is because the parts kind of warranted. She played Catherine Hepburn.

She won an Oscar for playing Catherine Hepburn. You know, she played blue Jasmine, which basically that character is essentially a Vivian Lee character. Um, you know, in a Tennessee Williams play. So it's, you know, I mean, Kate Winslet is also, I mean, Blanchett is going for it in a different way than, you know, is Kate Blanchett making the holiday?

I don't know. Well, that's what's so weird about her career is like all the, she does all those choices like the Jane Campion movies and things like that. But then this is later in her career, obviously. And she had stopped acting for a little while and she's coming back. But Cate Blanchett would not have made The Mountain Between Us with Idris Elba. It's just not happening. Well, maybe to sit with Idris Elba for a little bit.

I think Cate Blanchett might have done that. You think so? That's such a weird movie. I mean, it's not like Cate Blanchett doesn't have any fun in her work. But yeah, I mean, she's a little more strategic. She has this run. So the Titanic thing happens. She has the fork.

And what that movie did to her and Leo is pretty fascinating, right? Because Leo doesn't act for a couple years. Then he's in the beach and it takes him like six years to regroup before he starts ripping off that next run of great movies that he makes. She makes, you know, Holy Smoke. She does Quills in 2000, stuff like that. Then in 04, 06, she rips off Eternal Sunshine, Finding Neverland, Little Children, and The Holiday in three years. And that was when she

kind of restaked the flag as I'm here, 2008, The Reader, Revolutionary Road. So that five-year run is better than I think Cate Blanchett did, just for variety. The Holiday, I just don't think Cate Blanchett would have bought her in that movie in the same

way. And that, I think, has turned out to be if you're doing 21st century rom-coms that are probably the most beloved, at least for my wife and people. Juliette Lipman. And Juliette Lipman. I think that is an OG, probably the favorite in the finals if you're doing 21st century rom-com tournament. Nancy Meyers wins again. Oh, good Lord. Okay, fine. 100%. I accept. I again. Oh, good Lord. Okay, fine. 100%.

I accept. I accept. I accept. That is a beloved movie. It is. And you know, it's funny. It was beloved at the time, but it has really grown.

It's grown. It's gone leaps and bounds over its initial popularity. So then this decade, she had some kids. She did Mildred Pierce on TV, won an Emmy, did Contagion which she's really good in that's also

a fascinating Kate Winslet performance in this decade can I pause you for one second yeah there is a sub category of Kate Winslet movies in which Kate Winslet like takes one for the team in the movie like how many movies is Kate Winslet died

sacrificially in? Oh, yeah. At least five. Yeah. I mean, Kate Winslet dying is also a thing in the movies. Anyway, continue. Well, 2014 to 2017, it goes off the rails a little bit, right? Steve Jobs,

Divergent, Collateral Beauty, Mountain Between Us. Look, she's moving in her 40 start. And this is, look, she's, she's moving into her forties. This happens with actresses. The parts change. This is why I feel like a mayor of East town is so important because she's going to win an Emmy for it. Like I'm just, I'm calling it now. If she doesn't win the Emmy for this, I'd be, I'd be stunned, but. Oh, wait, but you know, can I like, you know, her competition is going to be. Who? Because this is a limited series, right? Yeah, who is it? It's going to be

her and Michaela Cole from I May Destroy You. That's going to be rough because Michaela Cole, that's just the best piece of acting I saw last year. Period, period, period, period, period. That's tough because Kate's already won. Yeah, you're right.

Maybe that'll be a battle. I think Michaela Cole, if she's nominated, there's also a scenario in which neither of these women gets nominated. But I don't want to live in that world. I think what's cool about this role, first of all, her as a former high school basketball player just delighted me to no end.

She's made the championship winning shot. She's the captain, the last person introduced. It's this whole backstory of like, can we get the Kate Winslet, the 25th anniversary reunion game? Can we see Kate like just running up down the floor like Julius Randall? I feel like she would do that and learn how to play basketball over the course of three months. You made this point and I really, I heard you say it

and I was like, I agree. I want to see that footage because she would definitely do it. It might even exist. But her physicality, which goes back to your point about how she uses her body

and I totally agree with her and J-Lo as the two that kind of figured it out the most. Christina Hendricks would be the other one I threw in for different reasons. Yes, ding, ding, ding.

Excellent point. But with her in this, it's this middle-aged woman. You could tell she feels like she peaked physically 20 years before and she's carrying it in the movie. Yes, yes, yes. And then they injure her. So now she's got the ankle injury.

So now she's limping around. She's out of shape. She probably hasn't worked out in 20 years. She's got the ankle injuries. Now she's limping around. She's out of shape. She probably hasn't worked out in 20 years. She's got all this damage. She's got the backstory with, with, uh, her son and the divorce.

And it's just like the perfect Kate Winslet part, just a shitload of baggage. She's got to navigate stuff. She's still, there's a sexuality lurking inside her that she's got to figure. Guy Pierce is trying to unlock a little bit there. But it's really, it's she's playing,

she's playing all the hits of the Kate Winslet package. I mean, just the fact that when you find out in episode one, that she was a former basketball star, I just like my eyes welled up because, well, I mean, because it makes, it makes her i mean sometimes

people get cast to play police officers and they're they're playing the the belt um you know that utility belt that cops wear i don't know if you've ever put one of those on bill um but i have and they weigh about 40 pounds um they're very heavy. And to wear that all day is... It's just... You're carrying around a lot of stuff. Yeah. But that is not... I mean, she's not a beat cop,

so she doesn't have to deal with a utility belt. But she may once have been one. But what she's carrying around is all of that... An athlete's beached body, basically. Right? Where, like, so much of her carriage is, like, in her, it's, like, in her, like, her posture is really interesting to me

in this performance. And, like, Yeah, she's carrying it, like, in the lower half of her body almost. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's almost like she had, like like a torn ACL 20 years ago and she's never got it fixed. And was really was like, again, was, would, would take that for the team in order to like, not have to have, I don't know what high school basketball is like in, in, you know, I don't know what high school basketball is like in like, you know, that part of like Philadelphia. Who knew?

Is that rabid? The girls basketball scene in Pennsylvania in the mid-90s. But, well, I mean, my sister played. Well, no, she did not play basketball. That's a lie. My niece played basketball. My sister ran track. But it is competitive.

It's not a joke. But I like that the lead, at least for a person familiar with the Kate Winslet experience is like is her physicality in some way. And that, you know, when she goes on that foot chase in the first episode and can't quite do it, she's like lost a step. But she's still committed to chasing down, you know, I don't know if that guy we call him a perp but yeah um you know i think that there's just something about her understanding what it is or at least like craig zobel who who who's responsible in part for this or like directed in brad inglesby i don't know who decided to cast her my god br Brad. Yeah. I feel like they know some like

she knows they know what what is what a thing that is special about her that she can do that really nobody else can. And one of those things is is the way her physical self functions.

And that's that's a big deal. That leads me to the second piece of this Winslet conversation. I think what makes her career so interesting to me, other than all the obvious reasons and why I think she was the best actress from mid-90s on, basically the best post-Meryl Streep actress we've had,

is you can kind of put her in anything. Like I'd be hard pressed to think about movies that it would have been like, nah, she's wrong for that one. Like even somebody like Nicole Kidman, who I think you're about as high on as anybody,

just as an actress. And, um, you're a massive fan of bill. You, you would not have bought her as a former, you would not have bought her as a former high school basketball champ now as a cop in Pennsylvania. It would have been ridiculous.

There's no way. Let's just pause that for one second. Because I think Nicole Kidman could play Frederick Douglass. Okay, fair. Now, do I want to see her do that? I do not yeah um but i do think that if you had given her this role the problem would not have been the the washed up basketball star turned police detective it would have been the accent yeah nicole kidman's, you know... Troubled accent history. She... This would have been a really hard thing for her to do.

And, like, look. We're watching the show. I'm from Philadelphia. I've got a little... You've got... I mean, there are a lot of Philadelphians in your life, Bill. Some with stronger accents than others. Mine is mediocre compared to, you know, like Chris Ryan, for instance.

He's got an accent. Yeah. And, you know, it's all... like Chris Ryan for instance he's got he's got an accent and you know it's probably after Baltimore I think Baltimore then Philadelphia are America's two hardest accents and

you mean hardest accents for an actor to master I mean hardest accents yeah I mean for one thing to start there and I think they're just two of the they're two of the tricky accents to understand when you're like deep in the territory too. Right. Well, Rhode Island's number one, just for the record. Rhode Island? Rhode Island is like the Massachusetts accent. No, no, no, no, no, no. You're right. It's the Massachusetts accent after nine drinks.

It's almost incomprehensible. How have i never heard that before as a person 13 years okay it's a fact um so i i do think that nicole kidman would have a hard time with that accent and you know nicole kidman how many how many points do i spot her for just not caring that she does not sound like any of the places these characters are from. I just kind of sometimes, I just don't care. You know, with the Oscar nominations and all that stuff, and granted the Oscars have gone sideways, but they're at least the best reflection we have. I wrote a column for East Penn Magazine way back when, probably 2007, 8 range, trying to prove that Meryl Streep was the best actor or actress of all time.

Just based on nominations and wins and the categories, I came up with this whole point system. And she was by far and away had the highest number. She's up to, for her career, 17 best actress nominations and four best supporting. She's also won, I think, at least four or something like that. She's got three. Three? Yeah. yeah okay and McDormand has three but but just for career Hepburn had 12 12 best actress no

supporting and I think she won like four maybe three or four yeah she won four Winslet and Blanchett both have the four and three for seven total plus they've each won once. Jane Fonda had six best actresses. Blanchett won twice.

Blanchett has two. Fonda was six best actress, one supporting, and she won twice. Dame Judy has the five and two. McDormand has the three and three, but she's won three times and closes four and four, four best actress, four best supporting.

She's won zero. She's had eight knobs. And then Betty Davis, 10 best actress nominations, zero sporting. But my point is like, that's our entire list of seven nominations or more. If you throw in Geraldine Page, four and four.

Oh, yeah. Geraldine Page. That is one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten actresses ever with seven nominations. Still Whoopi Goldberg's Oscar. Right. That's that Geraldine Page. Oh, yeah.

I forgot about that. Tripped a Bountiful. She's good in the movie, but that was Whoopi's Oscar. Sorry. I hate to spoil it for you. There's some crimes from 89 to, well, 88 to 94. Most of the Oscar, biggest Oscar travesties

ever happened in like an eight-year range there. Every year was a complete outrage. You just go year by year. It's just something, at least one thing happened that was off-putting. But here's why I bring all this up.

Kate Winslet's only 45. Yep. There's a lot of time left here. And I think as we saw in this TV show, she's not going to be afraid to explore what middle age is like. What is it like when your body changes? What is it like when you hit 50?

I feel like there's another 20 years here for her. Oh, yeah. But here's another 20 years here for her. Oh yeah. But here's the thing though. And I hate to sort of, every time we talk, I feel like I bring this up because it's, but it's really important and you can't paper over this. Now you are,

you mentioned earlier when things started to go a little sideways for Kate Winslet. Yeah. And you know, some of that might've been like personal choices. But around the time that she makes, I mean, let's say that the last like good,

maybe 2011 slash 2013, she was in Labor Day. But once she starts showing up as like, is she the president or like the leader of the colony in Divergent?

I don't know. She's got some money grab. That seems like I'm getting divorced. I need to cash a check. Right. So once she shows up in the Divergent movies and then she plays, she's got that part in Steve Jobs, which she does get an Oscar nomination for.

Interesting performance, by the way, because you don't. I'm not a fan. I got to say that was probably my least favorite Kate Winslet performance I didn't think she was good in that movie I've got some other least favorites but I hear you on that

I have no defense for it but that's the point at which the movies are they're dying they're definitely changing they're moving into some other version of themselves. And there are, I mean, it isn't just that she's not,

none of these parts, none of these movies is good. None of the parts is good. She did a Woody Allen movie. She did a Wonder Wheel. Isn't that a woman in her 40s thing though? Because that, I mean, you could argue the same thing happened to Jane Fonda. But who, okay.

So, all right, let's just play this out. Who is taking like Kate Winslet's parts after 2014? Like who's taking all these roles? I would say they're going to like the Scarlet generation, right? Like Kate Winslet would have been in Marriage Story, but she was too old.

You know? And that would have been like the... I mean, she basically made Marriage Story. She did Revolutionary World. It was the same kind of movie. That was like... That was Marriage Story with like, you know, and that would have been like the, I mean, she basically made Marriage Story. She did Revolutionary Road. It was the same kind of movie. That was like, that was Marriage Story with like, like, you know, weapons. That movie's dark.

So yeah, I think, so it's two things here. We always talk about you need to find your muse. She needs a couple directors to specifically say, I'm writing a movie for Kate or I have this part. It would be perfect for Kate.

Something like that. She's going to need to hit the lottery with that a couple of times. Meryl Streep hit a point where it was just like, you get Meryl Streep in your movie. She's your number one choice every time. She'll have her devil wears Prada moment at some point, you know, probably seven, eight years from now, right? She'll have some pop culture part where she just looks different

and she's older, but it's like a signature. Oh shit. Oh, we're at this stage of her career now. So that I feel like there's going to be some stages down the road. I thought this was a good stage though. I just don't think there are enough people to be offering her these parts. Like, where are they coming from? Don't get dark on me. I'm sorry. Don't write off movies and television. I'm not writing them off.

Maybe it'll be Prestige TV. Right. I mean, which is fine. I felt like when she did Mildred Pierce, that was a real, I mean, she was ahead of, I mean, other great actors have done

limited series television, obviously. She's not the first person to do it. But when she chose to do that, what year was that? Was that 15? 2011. Mildred Pierce. That was 2011. So that was an interesting bellwether, right? Because she was still at the top

of her... She was still near the top, right? Because she was still at the top of her... She was still near the top, right? That was the thing she does after she wins the Oscar, though. That's the thing she does, is Mildred Pierce. And I felt like, okay, I'm not going to turn down... If I'm Kate Winslet, I'm not going to turn down a chance to do the novel... To do a more faithful to the novel version

of Mildred Pierce with Todd Haynes and Guy Pearce, I get to luxuriate in the absurd tragedy of this novel. But at the same time, nothing is quite right

after that. And I think that that's the moment, this is this period where the movies are changing. And I think that that's the moment. This is this period where the movies are changing. And I just don't see who is taking these parts from this woman.

Like, there's not a lot to go around, so that might be a little bit of it. Can we be her agent for a second? I'm calling Nancy Meyers. Yeah. Okay. Yep. I'm calling David E. Kelly

and be like, hey, if you have another show in development with housewives holding glasses of Chardonnay at 6 o'clock at night who hate their husband can you just call send us a script if there's anybody on a deck looking out on some great ocean view and wondering

what happened to their life Kate's ready she could do it she's ready I would also, I would like to see her just, what is her mainstream? What's her, what's her like,

what's her version of the way back with Affleck? Oh, wow. Isn't it this show? What's that as a movie? I guess you're right. Maybe that is this show, but what could she do? One of those things where she's battling some personal demon and she's trying to work her way out of it and then it falls apart?

She hasn't really done that yet. Like some, maybe like a rehab type movie. Yeah. I mean, but that's, I mean, I think that there's a thing where at some point your pride kind of kicks in. There's just a thing you don't really want to be doing, which is like, you know, drug addicted, opioid, alcoholic. It just, she,

I don't know. She's never really, I mean, she's played, I mean, I think that, I think Mayor Sheen is a drunk, right? I think this woman is probably an alcoholic. But the show isn't about her drinking. It's about all this other stuff. Now, I've got some issues with where the show is, like, what the show is trying to do for poor Mare.

But I think that she is not stooping to conquer on that show. That performance is not about, like, pulling out all the stops. It's about leaving enough stops in to make this woman really interesting. And the other interesting thing about where things are is, last year she did do one of these so-called Oscar movies. It was called Ammonite, and it was her and Saoirse Ronan

banging. I mean, it wasn't that sexy. But they were playing two women in love. And nobody cared like it didn't get I mean it's not a great movie but when did it ever stop anybody it wasn't pandemic programming

right I just feel like and also she's playing a Brit is the other it's just such a weird like the fact that that movie got no traction last year when everybody was stuck in their houses and like

everybody loves Saoirse Ronan everybody loves Kate Winslet but nobody wants to see them like hook up in a period piece I gotta be honest I didn't see it either I mean nobody did would you have seen Kate Winslet in the queen would you have wanted that like season four Kate Winslet appearance oh that

queen uh yeah it'd have been oh wait the queen or the crown the crown I'm old that? Like season four Kate Winslet appearance? Oh, that queen. Yeah, it would have been the queen or the crown? The crown. I'm old. The crown. Yeah, sure. I mean, she couldn't. Could she have been a better Thatcher than Gillian Anderson? I don't know. Have they gotten

a Fergie yet? Could she be Fergie? Put a red wig on her? Oh my God. Yeah. Wait, hold on. Give me your Kate Winslet Mount Rushmore because we got to go soon. Okay. Kate Winslet Mount Rushmore. So here's mine. Okay. You go first. Titanic.

Little Children. Which I really want to do for the rewatchables even though it's not a rewatchable that movie is fucking amazing I actually can't believe it you really could have made the case it should have won the Oscar that year wasn't even nominated for best picture

no Titanic, The Holiday Little Children is it too weird to put Hideous Kinky as the fourth? Because that movie is so fucking crazy. It is not. It is not. I'm not going to put it as my fourth.

I don't have a fourth yet. I'm going to leave my fourth blank for her. Okay. I'll put Mare of Easttown as my fourth for now. But I feel like there's a fourth that will go. But I think I like those three movies specifically because I think it's the whole Kate experience.

Okay. I also think it's incredible that her and Leo were in Titanic when you could argue that those were two of the best five actors of the last 30 years and they just

those were their breakout roles. Like just what are the odds of that? Low. Non-existent now. It'd be like LeBron and Luca just randomly being rookies on the same team. Yeah.

How did this happen? And then going off and yeah, exactly. And doing these other or like winning a champ winning an NCAA championship together and then going off and doing X-Massey.

It was like the Fab Five of Jalen and C-Web became two of the best players of the last 30 years. All right. What's your Mount Rushmore? Titanic's got to be on it. Come on.

Does it? Does it, though? Does it? Come on. Don't be a party pooper. All right. Listen. You don't have to have Titanic.

I mean, I don't care. Okay. So Sense and Sensibility. Holy Smoke. Holy Smoke. Somebody's going to watch Holy Smoke today and be like, why did those guys do this to me?

But she's so great. That is the apotheosis of the Kate Winslet experience right there. Just be careful, people out there. Yeah, be careful. Make sure the kids aren't in the playpen 10 feet away. It's full on Jane Campion during peak Keitel

and beginning of peak Winslet. I feel like I've seen Keitel's cock as much as I've almost seen my own at this point. Keitel's cock is, how many times was his cock in a movie? Like five times? Not enough, Bill. Not enough. That's the next HBO show. It's called Keitel's Cock. It's a limited series. Not enough, Bill. Not enough. What else do we have?

That's the next HBO show. It's called Chi Tells Cock. It's just, it's a limited series. Keep it, keep it coming. All right.

Sense and Sensibility. Holy Smoke. You got two more. Little Children. Amazing movie. And I'm, I'm going to go with Titanic.

And here's why. Because I think that, like, we were talking about Fork in the Road, but I also think that's just a great example of movie star acting by a person who is convinced she's playing a character. Because we don't know who Kate Winslet is

at this point. Yeah. And she, you know, I am not a big fan despite what I said about not caring about Nicole Kidman's bad American accents in a lot of things. I do care about,

I do want British people to play British people and, you know, Australians to play Australians every once in a while. Well, that's a big flaw with Black Hat, which could have been a contender, but Helmsworth, just have him be Australian. Why are you giving him a

Bronx accent? What are you doing? You're undermining your own movie. Listen, I don't get it. Just make him from fucking Melbourne. Who cares? I don't understand. But I think for actors, I think it kind of is a challenge. And also, I wonder if it's like at some point, it's like being a major league baseball player

and then playing wiffle ball with your kids and it just messes your swing up. Right. I don't know. I'm not an actor and I don't do accents, but I think you got to just stay in the mode as often as you possibly can. So you like that she stayed in the mode in Titanic?

I think that she, well, she's creating the mode that she never really left. She rarely left it. She mostly plays American people, the occasional German, but mostly Americans. The reader's great. I just, that's a movie I don't want to watch again. Don't say that. That's not a great movie. She's really good in it.

I liked it. What a trap. Come that. That's not a great movie. She's really good in it. I liked it. What a trap. Come on. That movie is a moral catastrophe. It is just appalling. It is a movie. Bill, tell people what this movie's about. And see if you can do it without changing your mind about how good the movie is.

Can I recant? She's unbelievable in it. That's why I like the movie. She's unbelievable in it. That's why I like the movie. She's unbelievable in it. She is good. She is good in the movie. You know what? The thing about that movie

that takes me out every time I think about it is they tried to market her as a supporting actress so that she could get the double nomination for Revolutionary Road. Even though she's in every scene. Yes.

And it was one of the rare times where Academy voters are like, are you fucking kidding us with this shit? This woman is in almost every scene of this movie. Who's she supporting?

Right. And she winds up winning, you know, for that movie and not the other one. Yeah, I don't, the reader, the reader is just

an abomination. I can't, I can't abide that movie. I can't. She's great though. I mean, I love this woman. reader is just an abomination. I can't abide that movie. I can't. I mean, I love this woman. She is very good in it, but I can't conscience any choice that gets made

in that movie. It is just... It's just shocking. It's shocking to me. The way all the corners it cuts on what was actually happening at those concentration camps. And the idea that... Just the thing that the movie... The information actually happening at those concentration camps. And like the idea that just the,

the thing that the movie, the information, the movie pivots on, Oh, disgusting. I can't do it. So Titanic's your fourth. I'm going to choose Titanic.

You, you kind of made me think about it. Cause I just would have like skipped right over it and gone with contagion or something. But like, I think that, um, she's really good in contagion.

I think she's, I think that Titanic is a really good in Contagion. I think she's, I think that Titanic is a really good performance by an actress we didn't really know giving a movie star performance. And I just loved, I love that.

Well, she also survives the incredibly bad choice to have Rose sort of try to commit suicide, but not really. She's just standing on the deck

and then Leo saves her and then she kind of lets Leo hang out to dry instead of just being like, yeah, I got too close to the thing and I actually lost my balance and this guy saved me. She's just kind of looking at him scared. They arrest him and she somehow

gets through that and I'm still rooting for her and it's like, I should have been out right there. A lot of points in that movie should be out on Rose, but she kind of saves it. But just to say, like, I think mayor of East town is a really, I mean,

I just, I think it's just a really, I love the first three or four episodes. I don't like the idea that they're turning this care. They're like, they're just so determined to redeem her in the most like stereotypical redemption oriented sort of way for a cop. Yeah.

I love that the show was about policing initially about policing that you don't normally see. I don't need another cop show. I don't need another like cop romance show. You know what I mean? Like, like what a, like the,

the bad, the good cop has to make some bad choices to ultimately? Like, what a... Like, the bad... The good cop has to make some bad choices to ultimately do the right thing. Fuck that. I am tired of it. But I think this thing is so well made.

Agreed. And all of the acting on this show is good. I mean, there are probably people that you don't like in the performances. I just think all the acting, everybody trying to go

for an accent, not everybody getting there. I don't know why there's not more sports on this show, though. I'm curious about why only one time. I've only seen, I've only noticed one scene of people watching sports. Maybe I missed one. I like how we enter a world. I like movies where I'm in a world. I'm like, I don't know this world.

This is great. Tell me more. I'm from that world. And that's a world as a black. I'm like, I don't know this world. This is great. Tell me more. I'm from that world. And that's a world as a black Philadelphian, you just don't go. And I'm, yeah, anyway, I just think she's really good on that show. And I think the show is remarkable.

I thought episode five, the last 20 minutes of it, I don't want to spoil for people who haven't seen it, but it did something that I wasn't expecting. And I was surprised how into it I was because usually I'm three-fourths watching these as I'm also on emails or something. And that one, I was just completely riveted. Yeah. I mean, I knew what the show was trying to do with that last bit and i was simultaneously in deep suspense but also like oh i know what's happening here i mean not with not with the plot but just with the character i know what's happening here yeah and they probably owe jonathan demi some royalties i was gonna say

you're assigned to the lambs fan too i know i know that it's i would call it an homage like how olivio rodrigo is an an homage to Taylor Swift in a lot of ways. All right, Wesley. We can listen to Still Processing with you and Jenna. Are you taping these days? We're done. We just ended. We just did a whole thing about Before I Let Go. But you can listen to the old episodes.

Your load management is a lot like Kawhi Leonard's with Still Processing. Oh, thank you. Well, you know, you'll take a week off or take a month off, then you'll come back. It's always put on the Apple page as new and noteworthy, even though it's been around for five years. They just love that thing.

New and noteworthy, a podcast that's existed since 2016. People love it. It's great. Wesley, great to see you. Great to see you. Okay, as promised, my daughter Zoe, she just turned 16. Her best friend, Ella, who also just turned 16, they've known each other since they were in diapers.

And they talk about all the stuff teenage girls talk about with pop culture, influencer culture, all that stuff, all the time. I was fascinated by this Olivia Rodrigo thing. Normally Zoe would just come on and talk to me, but I thought it'd be more fun if she just talked to Ella about it. The new album came out, people love it,

and they're going to explain everything that's going on for us. So I am throwing it to my daughter. I'm so excited to get into this podcast because our idol, Miss Olivia Rodrigo, dropped her new album, Sour. It is incredible. Incredible. Got a new single a week before, and then the whole album dropped a couple days ago, and I was floored.

Floored. That's a perfect word to describe it. So first, let's just cover the singles that came out right before. Good For You, which came out about a week before the album dropped. This song just absolutely, at first, you know, I wasn't totally into it. I was like, this isn't typical Olivia Rodrigo. This is kind of rocky and pumpy. And this is like, this is not the driver's license girl that we saw crying over another girl taking her man. This was like angry Olivia Rodrigo and I didn't know how to handle it at first. But now I listen to this song in the shower,

in the car while I'm working out, whatever. I love it. What do you think? I love it too. I mean, in the music video, there was fire. She was the popular girl in the Trillian costume. And I was just like, wow, like I'm so here for this. This is your typical teenage angst.

And I couldn't be more happy that Olivia was kind of taking on that role kind of channeling some Alanis Morissette vibes like the way that she really floored the entire like generation when she dropped um you ought to know and just was like everyone was like what the what is this like she's like this is this angry girl who's like angry at this guy and that's what I was I was getting those vibes from Miss Olivia definitely so that we got about a week ago right before the album came out and then we got the album um Friday it came out we all listened to it I mean everyone I know has listened to it and we have we start with Brutal which was very similar to Good For You it was okay my first

impression go ahead and then i'll give you my thoughts i it scared me i listened to it and i was like what is happening and then i was like then i was like why is olivia rodriguez so insecure and then i was like okay this is a good song and now I listen to it regularly I don't like brutal you don't like brutal it's brutal it's not my favorite no it's just compared to all the other songs on the album this was my like and no thanks really mine was jealousy jealousy oh same I didn't like that song either that was kind of it was similar to brutal in like the trying to be rock song but it didn't quite hit it like good for you did in my opinion okay let's give our our top threes okay my top threes and this is not an order these are just my my my ones traitor for sure this song absolutely like oh just from the first time i heard

it chills all the way down my neck this was like a driver's license vibe, but escalated to the max. I knew it too. You were at dinner. You were at dinner and her album has just come out and I snapchatted you and I was like, Traitor, you're going to like Traitor. I know. And I called it and it's so good. Such a good song. Just, oh, it's it hits every single thing that I'd want it to hit in a sad song and a song that could also just make me scream in the car. Like, for whatever emotion I'm feeling, Traitor is a good song. Then my next one would be Favorite Crime. Ah, this song!

Oh my god! Also chills down my back of my neck. That did not come out right out of my mouth. But chills. Chills, absolute chills to this song. Also, like, kind of a driver's license vibe. But it's different. It like it's not exactly you know i mean it's interesting because driver's license was her first single right so we are assuming that the overall vibe will kind of connect to that song bits and pieces like have very incredible bridges and choruses and catchiness

and that's what she did so that's just like props to her for making a cohesive album yeah um but for my top three we only have one in similar which is girl you skipped my third no you said them no i only said two oh oh my last one my last one's good for you okay go ahead really yeah okay my top three one step forward three steps back not because it was just sampled from new year's day just because the lyrics and the bridge and everything is so good and it's just like i was like that's my song like the cover art too on spotify is a converse and like that is my shoe and so amelia was sending me all these tiktoks and she's like this is your song and she's making me very feeling very special anyways um

happier you like that one yeah i like that song i just compared to the other songs it's like no happier is incredible yeah it's a good song it's just i i don't know it doesn't invoke the emotions in me that the other three i mentioned do to be honest okay and I like one step forward three steps back but it like kind of reminded me of a nursery rhyme in the chorus yeah I love the lyrics it's just like the chorus like have you listened to new year's day by taylor swift on rep no okay then maybe you should listen then I don't I don't get the vibe okay no but here's the thing I I realized how much I love Favorite Crime. And I was like, damn, this song is amazing. Like, it feels like crack listening to this song.

I've never done crack. But it feels like what I would imagine crack to feel like. Thanks for clarifying, Zoe. I was like, why is this song like hitting me so hard? But I also feel like this feels familiar. Like, I so hard. But I also feel like this feels familiar. Like I know this. And then I realized this song sounds painfully similar to Feeling Whitney by Post Malone. Okay. I just…

Sure. This is not throwing shade at Olivia at all. I was just like, wow, this song sounds so similar to another song that I have really deep-rooted love for. Like, this is why I love this song so much. Yeah, I mean, and she obviously, like any artist does, takes from other artists in variation. Like, you need to listen to New Year's Day because one step forward, three steps back is sampling from New Year's Day. It has the same track of piano which is obviously like olivia loves taylor so much that she wrote a rendition to new year's day and she

loved one step forward three steps back so much that she put it in the album and jack antonoff and taylor swift are credited so it's not like she stole it but i can definitely see so many billy eilish influences conan gray taylor swift is it is a gimme. But I feel like Whitney was interesting when I never heard that before. Yeah. And I mean, I am in no way like upset about how the song sounds similar and how she takes inspiration from other artists because there's only so many melodies out there. And it's good to take inspiration and to make it your own. And she didn't copy these people. She's just respecting their work and taking inspiration. Anyways. Okay. So a big question throughout the media, is this going to be the year of Livia Rodrigo? And I, girl, I think it is. I mean, she's already

been taking it over. She's, she dropped driver's license a few months ago and this took the internet by a storm. Like literally everyone freaked out. This was all over TikTok, just every form of social media. This song was all over it. And then she dropped her single Deja Vu and then Good For You and then this album and she's just progressing and her fame is only getting bigger and she's becoming more of a well-known person for better or for worse because, you know, some people hate and that's that's just a thing that happens. And it's normal when you're such a big star. But I do think that this is the year of Olivia Rodrigo. What do you think? And I couldn't agree more.

I mean, she's killing it already. And do you want to hear my little like conspiracy? Yes, I'd love to hear it. So we have Sour, right? This is her album. It's a 34-minute album. It's not long. Compared to other artists, it's not long.

So smart. And all of these all of these songs are breakup songs they're she's sad right but she's posted she has so many unreleased songs that she's just posted little snippets on instagram that are that are happy that are about like being in love right i think there's gonna be another album soon sooner than you think called sweet and you want to know why i think this? Because she collaborated with Sour Patch Kids. And what's their slogan? Sour then sweet.

Ella! I know. Okay, I'm going to credit. Half of that was from TikTok. But I made some of those connections myself. Okay, well, I'm completely interested in this take. And we'll see how it plays out. Because this seems like the type of thing she would do.

She's trying to take these little, like, you know, little hints from what Taylor Swift did in her past. And she might be injecting that in herself. And by the way, like, collaborating with Sour Patch Kids, unexpected, but such a good move. Such a good move. And they were literally only sold at the New York store. And they were $25.

So I was, like, really into buying them. But then I didn't. and they were literally only sold at the new york store and they were 25 so i was like really uh into buying them but then i didn't because they were great flavored too ew okay that's that's a bad move all right high school musical musical series is that her next step to take over see um i mean listen the storyline for high school musical the musical the series we need to like shorten that we need a little acronym for that because it's a mouthful yeah we're gonna talk about it a little bit more but honestly I think she's really wants to transition from acting to music and I think this is the way she's doing it I don't know if high school musical is going to be renewed for a third season,

but they're all seniors, so it doesn't really make sense for them to be renewed unless they want the show to kind of just go downhill, which isn't the smartest idea. So I think she might take a little break from acting and really focus on her music, which I think would be the best next step for her. I couldn't agree more because she has she's been in the spotlight and she's been on the media and in film for a long time. She was on some Disney Channel shows and it just it's been something that was really relevant in her life for a long time. And like you said, it's usually the move with these stars to go from like these acting gigs to becoming a big musician. And I think it's smart that the way she's doing it

is by acting in a show that's all revolved around singing, which might grab the attention of younger viewers who don't know her music as well and bring them into her outside of High School Musical The Musical The Series life. Right, and especially, I think she's going to start, she wrote some music for High School Musical The Musical The Series in the first season. And we could musical the musical the series in the first

season and we could possibly be seeing that more in the second season but after this i don't know really what she's gonna do but i'm curious to see if she's gonna just focus more on music which i feel like would be the smartest move for her and the one i would enjoy because as much as i love her acting her singing just hits it out of the park so kind of to build off of this topic i guess let's do a manager for a day so let's say that we had olivia rodrigo newly signed to us we were her managers we got to control every move that she made in the media considering her position right now what would our first move be to make olivia Olivia Rodrigo even bigger in the media? I think connecting with fans is so important. So I don't know exactly what I would do,

but I would make sure there would not necessarily something as cliche as like a meet and greet, but I would make sure Olivia has the ability to interact with her fans on like um just a casual level just so she knows that they she cares about them and also I don't know I love the way Olivia adopted the idea of Easter eggs from Taylor Swift so I'd love to like just like release a bunch of Instagram posts all with the secret meaning but like I'm the one creating that secret message and just watch all the fans figure that out. Like I always think whenever Taylor or Olivia release like an Instagram picture like with Easter eggs, like you know there's Easter eggs because it's Taylor Swift and Olivia Rodrigo, and I would love to be them in this situation or their managers just watching the fans on like Twitter and TikTok trying to figure out what's coming next. I feel like they get so much joy from that,

that that's definitely what I would do. You know what? You know what I would think would be fucking groundbreaking? What? Having a collab, a duet between Miss Olivia Rodrigo and Sabrina Carpenter. Oh, God. I thought you were going to say rodrigo and sabrina carpenter oh god i thought you were gonna say olivia rodrigo and taylor swift no see i want that would be exciting but i think the drama that would be provoked from a collab between sabrina carpenter and olivia rodrigo would actually break the internet okay we would definitely be different managers because i don't want her to be like no i get that and i don't think it would be i don't think it would be the greatest idea for her future person

but as getting to be a manager for one day i can only make moves for one day i only have control over this girl for 24 hours i would want to make that the craziest fucking 24 hours i could make it i would want to i would want to just put her on blast and see what would happen. Because imagine what people would do if they heard that Olivia and her so-called enemy, Sabrina Carpenter, were coming out with a song. Hasn't that already been deemed a publicity stunt? Like, aren't they chilling? Whatever, still.

People would freak out. I would totally slip in Olivia Rodrigo on 1989 Taylor's version on like Wildest Dreams, maybe a little style, like background vocals duet because that would break the internet too.

Just saying. Yeah. Alright, thanks to Zoe and Ella for breaking that down for us. Thanks to Rob Mahoney and Kyle Mann. Thanks to my good friend, Wesley Morris. We will be back on Sunday night. Going to do the same gimmick with Rosillo on Sunday night that we did last week. A two-parter.

We'll put up part one probably after the late afternoon game. And then we'll do part two after the late game. I will see you on Sunday night, even though it's Memorial Day weekend. Enjoy the three-day weekend. We'll have some content for you on Sunday night. Take care. I don't have.