The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Shohei Live Experience, Plus the Maxey-V.J. Show, Surprise NBA Contenders, and Early Trends With Tim Legler

Episode Date: October 28, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons talks about his experience attending the epic, 18-inning Game 3 of the World Series between the Dodgers and the Blue Jays (2:12). Then, Tim Legler joins to discuss the talent around the NBA, Wemby and the Spurs, the Philly situation, and much more (25:52)! Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Tim Legler Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo 15% off $15+ on NFL Gamedays with CODE: GAMEDAY at https://littlecaesars.onelink.me/vc9i/n15m71zn The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by Fandall Sportsbook. We are also brought to you by the Ringer podcast Network, where it is the last week of Halloween. So, of course, we had to do a horror movie. We've done Halloween one. We've done Halloween four. Naturally, we had to do Halloween, too, which is probably the funniest of all the Halloween movies. It was not intended to be funny, but it's belatedly funny.

Me and Chris Ryan and Van Lathan broke down everything you'd ever want to know about this movie and why it is still held up in some pretty crazy ways. You can get that on Spotify. You can get that wherever you get your podcast. So go check it out. I'm going to have Tim Legler on here in a second to talk about everything that's gone on in the NBA through one week. He's been lucky enough to sit courtside for a couple of the games.

There's been a lot of storylines in play. And he's coming up after the break and after Pearl Jam. And after I tell the story about going to Game 3 Dodgers, Blue Jays World Series last night, which turned into some sort of a life experience. And I'll explain why in a second. Let's take a break, Pearl Jam, then I'm back. This is the Bill Simmons podcast presented by Fandul. If you're betting on the NFL, come on.

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Guess what I did? Use Fandole. fun. Download the Fando app or go to fandrel.com slash BS to get started. Must be 21 plus president select states, 18 plus in D.C., Kentucky, and Wyoming. Game problem. Call win a hundred gambler. Visit RG-Help.com. Call 88879-777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. All right, so I went to game three of the Dodgers Blues Js World Series last night in Dodgers Stadium. And by the time you hear this, game four might be about to happen. It might be happening.

It might have already happened. Not the point. I think I went to one of the best World Series. games at least of this century and maybe of the last 50 years and god only knows i mean there's been we always do this with new stuff we forget about some of the classics over the years there's been a lot of awesome world series games there's nothing like being at the world series the theater of it uh nobody leaves ever especially in a close game it's one of those baseball nobody's thinking about let's beat the traffic people are just like we're here we're staying here um and the game

itself uh there are all these crazy defensive plays You know, it's just like a, this is what you want to see when you're at the highest level of whatever sport. You want to see like real artistry, just awesome defensive plays, just everybody, like even Vlad had a really great slide somewhere. I can't even, oh, the whole game blends together, but just some really good baseball across the board, right? But then there's this Otani thing that, you know, is its own regular season subplot. He's this generation's Babe Ruth. It's just a thing that happened. It took way too long to get him

on one of the signature teams to get him in some of these playoff moments. He finally gets to the Dodgers. We finally get to see him raise his level to match some of these magical moments. And in the last round, he had one of the great individual games in the history of the sport.

So then in this game, he's de-hching. Every time he comes up, if it's an untan inning, nobody gets up, nobody's going to like I'm going to go run to pee I'm going to go get a drink really quick it's just people in their seats waiting for him to bat and he cranks this double

it felt like one of those games momentum was going to be against the Dodgers but he cranks just this hard line drive double in the gap gets the second does this whole thing comes up the next time hits a home run and then the next time he came up

and I had awesome seats I was like right there behind home plate and I don't usually video tape stuff when I'm at games unless it's something, you know, it's like the last play of a basketball game. And I'll do it where I'm watching and I'll kind of hold the camera like this. But Otani came up and I'm, and I think everybody in the stadium actually thought he was going to hit home run, which I don't really remember ever experiencing that feeling before where there's like a collective anticipation of, oh yeah, he's probably going to hit a home run.

Even Ortiz, who had some red-hot moments in 2004, who in 2013 got so hot that the Cardinals just started walking him. This is like, I've never seen anything like this where it's not surprising that he's going to hit a home run. The only time I can ever think of, other than a couple Ortiz hot streaks, was Barry Bonds during the height of when he just turned into a superhero for, maybe some chemical reasons. But it just felt like every time he was up, he was going to hit the ball 600 feet or get a walk. And Otani is doing this now. I barely have the phone.

And I'm about to hit record. And it's a new iPhone where it's like you could zoom back to one, two, three, four, five. And I put it on two and it's too close. I'm like, oh, shit, that's too close. I'll put it on one. And I look up and the pitch comes. And he just cranks another one.

And people just were losing their minds. They just, nobody can believe what's happening with this. This is, you know, this is Tiger in the late 90s just destroying Augusta. This is Jordan shrugging at magic in the 92 finals. Like this like last level of somebody being so much better at the sport than everybody else they're playing with that kind of nobody knows how to even wrap their heads around what's happening. You know, this is Brady being down 283 in the Super Bowl and just like, I'm scoring every time from now on. just does it. And at some point, you're watching going, this is, I've never seen a sport played like this. Otani gets, so he hits the homer, people lose their minds. And then every time up after

that, they walk him intentionally. And I'm watching the next time he comes up, you can see the dugout. And I'm watching the manager. And I'm like, don't walk him. Come on, you got to pitch to him. Everyone wants to just pitch to him. And he does like the intentional walk thing. They walk Otani. Everybody goes, boo. But it turns out it's the right move. Because if he's maybe going to hit home run every time he's up or hit a double or do something terrible and the other team psyched out by him, like, all right, just put him on. Let's pitch to Mookie Betts and Freddie Freeman. So anyway, it goes from being this awesome World Series, Otani, you know, yet again

putting his stamp down as the signature guy this generation on top of all these great plays. It's like, whoa, this is a World Series classic. And then the game just doesn't end. And it's getting colder. It dips from like 68 to 63. But in Dodger Stadium, it's a little wind tunnel. And everybody is not dressed properly except for the people that go to every game. So it's getting colder.

The balls are starting to die. The Blue Jays take out Springer gets hurt. It looked like he hurt his oblique or something. They take out Kirk after the 12th. Bouchette comes out at some point. All of a sudden, the Blue Jays look like they're an expansion team with Vlad Guerrero. So you figure they're basically not. never going to score unless the Dodgers are just walking people.

And then on the flip side, the Dodgers, they're walking, they're pitching around Otani and nobody else can basically either hit a home run or really do anything. And they're just, it's zeros after zeros. When you go to Dodger Stadium, I know like, you know, I certainly, when I live back east and you'd watch the Dodger fans, you're like, they suck, they leave after the seventh inning. It can't be overemphasized how hard it is to get in and out of Dodger Stadium. It's like basically going to a football, to an NFL game that's an hour and a half away, even if you live 20 minutes from there.

Like you just, you can't get in, but you especially can't get out. And everyone who's at any Dodger game, you're always doing the calculus of, well, we could stay for the night, but that's another hour and a half in the parking lot. And I'm not kidding, it's an hour and a half. So people are doing that calculus, but this is the World Series. You can't leave. So people are there and everybody's doing the math. And there's, I was thankful and grateful to be with people.

We're like, there's no way we're living. This is the World Series. So we're just like, you just kind of give into the game. And the game's going and it's going. And now it's like six hours, even with the pitch clock. And it's heading toward midnight. And you're just doing the math in your head like, wow, I might not be home until three in the morning.

But this is worth it. This is one of the great games. We're looking up, we're checking out like, oh, my God, if we get to the, I think it was the 14th or 15th inning, this would be the second longest World Series game ever. And you start putting that context. Like they've been playing the World Series since,

I don't even remember when it started. You know, it was like 1900, 1903. I used to know this stuff. Now I'm old. And you just think of all the different World Series games and you start thinking of the history. It's like, whoa, I get to tell people I went to this. But at the same time, you're going,

but what's going to happen? Am I going to die in my seat? like do they need to start making food again or like do they need to to to reopen like the refreshment stands all that stuff at the end of the between the the bottom and the top of the 14th inning they redid um take me out to the ball game the seventh inning stretch they just did it again it was a double stretch i've never been to a game where that happened the longest game I've ever been to was in 2004, game four, game five. One of those games was 14 innings.

I think it was game five. I can't remember. Those two games just blend together in the 26 innings. But that one, there was no pitch clock, and that was my favorite team. And I wrote one of my favorite things I ever wrote after that game. That was like, when it's your favorite team, it turns in another level. You're just basically getting a root canal for seven hours and you're having a heart attack the entire time. I didn't, I bet on the Dodgers, but I didn't obviously care about who won in the same way I would have.

It was the Red Sox game. But I had Dodger fans, friends at this game that it was like they were being operated on, you know? And you don't know what's going to end. The stress at some point, I don't know how long human beings can be stressed out for. You know, it certainly happens in hockey where you have, and I've, I mean, I mean, the most famous one for me when I really loved hockey was the triple O.T game that Peter Klima beat the Bruins in game one, 1990. But in hockey, that's really hard, but at least you have a break, right?

It's like it's a root canal for the entire overtime period. And every time something happens, you're convinced, like, it's going to be the worst thing ever, the best thing ever. And it's just this roller coaster. But then it stops. And you get to like, all right, I have 20 minutes now to regroup mentally. I can get a drink. I can go to the bathroom.

In baseball, it's like three minutes. We're doing another half inning, guys. Let's go. And Toronto's batting at the top. So you're trying to just get through that inning. And then the Dodgers comes up as well, you know, maybe it happens here. But nobody can get a hit on the Dodgers. Nobody, everything's going, dying in the warning track.

And there came a point where we're like, what, how long, how long could we make it? Because I was just not leaving. But it was like, could there be a triple seventh inning stretch? Could this get to the 22nd inning? Like at one point, well, I'd be telling my great crank kids that I went to this game. I probably won't be alive for great cancans,

but hypothetically. Anyway, everyone is just in disbelief by the 15th inning. And then it gets to the 18th, and we're looking it up, and it's like, wow, this is the longest World Series game that's ever happened.

And I know from experience with the 2018 World Series, when a game goes this long, you start thinking like, whoever wins this game is going to win the World Series. When the Red Sox lost the previous longest game ever in the 18th inning, which was Nathan Avaldi, he should have been on the Red Sox for the rest of his life after I already pitched in that game.

But when they lost that game, I just assumed they were going to win the World Series or lose the World Series. It felt like it was like three losses. So I knew from that experience, because the Red Sox came back and won the World Series over the next couple games, I knew that it wasn't life for death. But all the Dodger fans that are around me, I think you start to feel it a little bit

because they were going to run out of pitchers and they couldn't have pitched Otani because you can't really fuck with him. He's the DH. He's going to pitch the next game. And so at some point, we're all talking about are they going to bring in, like who would they bring in if they had to bring in a position player?

It would be Muky Betts. Mookie Betts, who's, you know, the greatest, one of the great athletes in the history of the sport, He was just playing lights out shortstop yesterday, even though he's second base, center field, right field, wherever he plays. He's one of the best of his position. Yesterday, he's just playing awesome shortstop. But we were wondering, maybe it's Mookie.

Maybe he's the one who pitches. All of it was amazing. The one thing that we were pretty certain of was the only guy who could beat the Dodgers was Vlad Guerrero, who's absolutely terrifying. And we were sitting really close to where the Blue Jays would go in the on deck. and you're just watching this dude. He's just this mammoth, mammoth guy. He's turning around.

He's engaging with the crowd. He's so fucking confident. And there was this unbelievable moment in the game. They bring in Kershaw. They're running out of pitchers. Kershaw has this sadly storied playoff history with the Dodgers, where he's like one of the most beloved Dodgers of all the time, but it's basically the Carl Malone of baseball.

And the Dodger fans are very sensitive of it. They love him, but they also don't trust him at all. So he comes into this game to pitch to the lefty. I don't even remember what inning. It was like the 12th, 13th. Like at some point, you can't even keep track of what inning it was. And they can't even tell you in the scoreboard what an inning it is. You have to like squint this in numbers.

And Kershaw comes in. And all the Dodger fans are like, not like this. Not like this. This can't be yet another terrible Kershaw moment. He can't be the one that loses this. So he comes in and you could feel how, tense it was. You can just feel it. Like, like, just a different level. And I've been in, I've been like for Boston teams in games like that where somebody comes in or you're relying

on somebody that you don't trust. And it's the worst fucking feeling in the world. We had it in in one of those, I think it was game, it's either game four or game five. Again, those two blend together for me. I don't remember which one is which anywhere. But Wakefield came in. I think it was the 14 inning game. Wakefield came in. And he's throwing a knuckleball to Veritech who didn't normally catch the knuckleball and somebody's on third base and Wakefield was the guy who'd given up the Boone Homer the year before, which was just not his fault. And nobody even really blamed him as the goat because he was so awesome that year, the go to the game. And how nervous people were for every Wakefield knuckleball, not knowing if Veritech was going to be

able to stop it, it was just a feeling in the park that I'll never forget. And the other one was when Curtis Laskana came in. I think that was game four, who was, you know, the last pitcher on the team, and we actually needed him to get out. And it's just like a different level. So anyway, the Dodger fans had this, but it was on a whole other level because it's Kershaw.

And they have all this baggage, and they just love the guy so much. And nobody wants them to be the go to the game. So it comes in, and his first pitch is a ball, and it goes, like, silent in the crowd. And everybody's thinking, like, oh, no. It just, I can't describe how dead it got for like a second and a half where people, everyone's just doing the math of like, oh my God, if he walks in the winning run and it's Kershaw, this actually could be such a bummer that it'll swing the series. So anyway, it gets to 2-1 and then he miraculously gets out of it.

And the relief that came out, it was almost like more relief than when Freddie actually hit the walk-off. So we're watching it, we're watching, we're watching. And every time the Dodgers are up, I'm with my friends and we're going, if there's a walkoff, if it seems like a walk off, we're up the steps, we're out. Because then it turns out to escape from New York. You have to get out as fast as you can out of the parking lot. Every 10 seconds you can get out of the parking lot before other people is like another five minutes.

And if you don't get out in time, you're just there for two hours. So we're like, all right, we have our plan. If there's a walk off, we're up to stairs, like we're up the stairs even before it lands. And the catch was the home runs, you just couldn't read them. Because it seemed like the Blue Jays had had one. It seemed like Will Smith had one. And they would just die in the warning check. So Freddie cranks one on the 18th.

And we're like, oh, oh, oh, that's good. And the crowd's going nuts. And it's carrying, carrying. As it's landing, we're flying out of there because it's escaped from New York. and it still took over an hour to get home. We thought we played it perfectly. We didn't. Got home, 1.30.

This is why I have these big bags under my eyes. I couldn't sleep after it because it was just too much fun. I love sports. I don't care who's playing in a World Series game, the atmosphere of it, and how locked in everybody is and how nobody leaves and every pitch matters and every moment matters. And you just go to games where you want to see there's something special like Otani or you want to see the most dramatic game possible.

And somehow last night had both. And it was just awesome. I have no idea who's going to win this World Series, especially if Springer's going to be heard. I think that should be enough for the Dodgers. And they may never pitch to Otani again. By the time you hear this, they may have walked Otani five straight times.

They won last year. They won a real world series last year unlike the stupid strike one, unlike the 1981 lockout. Last year was a real one. This one going back to back would be incredible, obviously. But the Otani thing puts in another stratosphere. What's happening with him, and it's not just in LA, I think it's everywhere. It just doesn't matter the sport when this happens.

When there's somebody who, people who don't care about sports, people like my mom know what's going on, That's like the last level of sport can get to. This is what the NBA is so desperately searching for right now. They have all these great stars. They don't have the Otani. That's just the water cooler guy, the guy that you kind of have to go out of your way to see, the guy who has all these magical moments inside him

and you don't know when they're going to happen. Wehbanyama might be that guy for the NBA. There's real signs now that this could happen where it's just something we've never seen before. The Otani thing, something we've never seen before, somebody who has a flair for the dramatic who's just really, really, really, really special. And it's just a shame that it took them this long

to get to the Dodgers and to these big moments. But I was so glad I went last night. I'm in my mid-50s. I watched a lot of media members when I was growing up that seemed like they stopped caring about sports in the same way and got more negative and maybe they'd seen too many games, had too many interactions with players.

I still love this stuff and you know you go to a game like that and it's worth it's worth not knowing how long it's going to take to get there it's worth not knowing how long

you're going to be in a parking lot waiting to get home especially having cool seats for a game like that really, really special and when I've talked about Dodger Stadium before I still think Fenway and Wrigley

are the two ballparks that stand out and Dodger Stadium parking aside is probably the third for the moments like that, especially because they've had cool moments in that stadium, and they do a really good job of bringing the old guys back, which the Celtics do. Some franchises do it. You really have to have the history and you have to have the great players in your background

to be able to do it. But like, Oro Hershizer was sitting near us. Kofax was right on the other side. You know, you look around and it's like just Steve Garvey was signing autographs. Everybody who meant something to the Dodgers, they figured out a way to get in the ballpark. somewhere around. And you know, you really feel the history when you see these games, not to mention Magic Johnson's there. I mean, obviously the LA celebrities that are there, but, but it, they've done a really good job, I think, of embracing the past, leaning into

the stadium, leaning into all the great players they've had over the years. And it really does feel, you know, like a special franchise, which I've always felt the Celtics are like that, too. You know, it's one of the reasons we wanted to do Celtics City. It's like the era's the players and then how you keep protecting the leg see all that stuff i think the dodgers do a good job with that the yankees do a good job with that i got handed to them there's some teams that understand it and do it and do it correctly and i do think the dodgers are one of them but last time i think just an unforgettable unforgettable uh sporting event and i will always remember it so i'm glad i went i came home i was so wired i was watching uh goddown cable of two in the

morning sitting sitting on this stupid massage chair we have tried to crank out my back My wife sent me my Life 360. We have Life 360 for our family. And she sent me a screenshot. It was like, I think it was the top of the 18th. And it just said I was in the exact same spot at Dodger Stadium for eight hours. And I'm just going to screen save that and put it in my iPhone album because there will never be another game like that. So awesome World Series.

I hope the rest of the games are as good as that one. I want to tell the story. And it was an honor to be in the photo of the second home run. They had this really cool photo of the Otani Batflip. and you can see us in the background. I'm like, that's great. I'm framing that. Anyway, we are going to take a break.

We're going to come back with the one-and-only Tim Legler, and we are going to talk basketball. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by Fandall. Fandall is with you for every tip-off as we dive into this awesome basketball season. Every day to start the season, choose your reward. You can play it safe. Go for it, feeling bold.

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per day cannot be combined with any other offers plus tax where applicable prices may vary delivery available from participating locations with online orders only copyright 2025 LCE Incorporated. All right, Tim Legler's here. We're taping this on early Tuesday afternoon Pacific time. He's going to be popping on the ringer all through the year on my podcast and on Zach Lowe's podcast. Couldn't be more excited to have you aboard.

And congratulations on being on the top ESPN team. I feel like we've already seen you a lot. Yeah, appreciate it, man. Yeah, we have. It was a big opening week for all of us. We got new partners in this too. So it was a big, big opening splashy week for the NBC. Amazon, us, ABC, everybody.

So it's off to a great start. Really excited to be part of that crew. And we got two under our belts now with Mike Richard and myself. And we're happy with the start we've had. And we know it's just going to get better and better. Well, people don't realize what a mean guy Mike Breen is. Like, just mean to everybody, like just snaps at people. And like, he's just really an awful person.

So I hope that's okay. Is there a better guy in the business, Bill? Is there a better guy in the business than Mike Breen? He really is. He might be in the running. for most liked person who's in sports media, which, you know, sports media could be a hornet's nest. But people agree have very few things. But one of them is I like Mike Green.

All right. So I want to start here. I sent you a bunch of things I want to talk about. I didn't not send you this one. I think we have the most talent right now, not only from like a top player standpoint, but maybe even like a top 35 to 40 standpoint. There's so much talent everywhere. and the only time I can think of that was like this

was that early 90s, which is ironically when you were in the league where we just had all these future hall famers, we had all these great players in their primes. You could see it with the dream team, but you could also see it in the playoffs. You can see it in the all-MBA stuff. It was just kind of a unicorn time.

And it feels like we're coming back because this kind of wimby level, those guys, the under 25 guys, are now ascending, but we still have the other group of guys. And then we even have some of the old guys like Curry. I just don't, I can't fathom how much talent we have. And I watch, I'm flipping around league pass and it's like, Charlotte, I kind of like their team.

They're going to win like 25 games. And you look at the talent and you're like, I kind of like these guys. Have you noticed that even from the games you're going to? Like, holy shit. Yeah, because I, I mean, can you ever remember a week of a, of a, of a, start of a season that had as many huge scoring outbursts as we just had over the past week. And that includes from a team standpoint, some of the numbers these teams are putting up, but mostly from an individual standpoint.

We've had some unlikely guys have 50-point games already in the first week. We've had some other guys that, like, okay, our first game. Like, you know, we get Shay Gilgis Alexander. He goes for 55. You're like, okay, that's not shocking. But, you know, you get Austin Reeves dropping 50. Lori Markenance had a 50-point game. Aaron Gordon had a 50-point game.

So, yeah, the shot-making capabilities across the league, the number of guys that have a lot of high-level shot-making in their bag, whether it's off-to-dribble deep or mid-range or whatever it may be, there's just more dudes that can check into a game and make shots at a high level than we've ever had in this league. And when you combine that with what these teams are all trying to replicate with pace and style and spacing and the whistles, which we're going to talk about. about, I think, at some point today, when you add all that up, you get what you're looking at now, which is like the league is tailor-made for guys that want to add these types of things to their game and ability to shoot the ball with escapeability off the dribble first to create their own, the step back, the side step three, like all of these different shots they can go. The runners and floaters and the array of shot making that guys can make now on the move

toward the rim. there's just more guys on the court that can do all of these things and yeah it's been pretty pretty eye-opening and it's been like this for a couple years for me but I don't recall ever in the 25 years I've been at ESPN

this is my 25th year seeing a week at the start of this season like this in terms of these box scores that are just absolutely popping you know popping off the page yeah I was trying to think of reasons other than sometimes talent just comes in waves which certainly happened

your first few years in the NBA. We just had a lot of talent. There might be 40 reasons for that. There might be no reasons. It might just be luck. But I do feel like when you think about how the league shifted, basically right around when Curry started a hit with the Warriors and we started spacing and the whole concept of a big man started a change. We had all this trial and error for 12 years. And now the league plays the way it plays. But then you also have all these people coming in through AAU, high school, college, that are trained to play that way. And I watched somebody like VJ Edgecom coming in who, you know, I really liked in the draft. I thought like this guy has a chance to be a star.

He'll come in. He'll be an awesome athlete. He'll be a defender. He'll be athletic. He'll be a work in progress. It's going to take some time. He was like running offense for Philly last night. I watched the second half of that game.

He was running their offense when Maxie was out and just has a level of sophistication at age 20 that I wasn't prepared for. So do you think that's a piece of that? that they're just kind of used to how the game goes at this level and they just come in and can fit in? Or are these guys just freaks? No, I think it is a lot of that. I think they're sitting there watching the league some of these guys and they're seeing this league is now Taylor made for the opportunity

that having that kind of an offense represents. And they're jumping all over it. Now, what you don't know, when these guys come to league, I also loved Edgecombe. And I thought it was like really almost divine intervention for Philly. And look, I like Ace Bailey, too. And Ace Bailey might turn into a really, really high-level NBA player. But it's just funny how that played out for Philly once Ace Bailey is like, well,

I'm not even going to come interview. To me, if I'm running a team, that takes you out of the equation for me. If I hear that, that's right. And I think that kind of led to it now, it's like, well, then it's definitely going to be Edgecombe. And obviously these people in Philadelphia, a lot of these are my knucklehead friends who love the Sixers, and they're losing their minds over the sky. They try to trade it for a month and a half.

And they kind of, all right, we'll take Edgecombe. And now he's awesome. That's a great point. So in a lot of ways, it's almost like they were kind of forced into a corner with this pick and him being at that point, like the obvious guy to pick. And they picked him. So you see the talent. I loved the athletic ability and like the strength.

But what you don't know until you see a guy take the court in the NBA is what's his confidence level like from day one. Some guys just hit the ground running with that. They don't have that overly deferential gene. And they just go and they just play. That's what Edgecombe is doing. So everything is kind of funneling in that direction for him right off the bat. The guy's sensational 34 in his first game. And he really hasn't let up since. You know, other guys, they have all the talent, the size, the skill, whatever it may be. And the situations there, they're getting minutes. but there's something about the wiring that takes a little longer for them to understand and recognize like it's okay for me to be an alpha right now on this trip on this

possession in the open floor like just go and not think let muscle memory take over and just be what you are as a natural athlete and player some guys get there earlier and edgecombe he got there immediately like as soon as he walked out of the tunnel at first night in Boston. Yeah, that's comfort is, so think about comfortability and confidence. And when a guy can come in and have both of those things, which usually doesn't happen for rookies, we have multiple guys who are like that to share in this rookie class. Like, Dylan Harper is like that now.

Like he's, I don't know where he's going to be, but he knows how to already play with and without the ball. Edge comes like that. Knieple is just like the ideal third or fourth guy for any team. Like he can basically do whatever, you know. And you just go down the line and then Flag, who I want to talk about later, because I really have an issue with what they're doing with him. But Flag's another one who's really comfortable.

Like Flag, and I think the Sunday game, at one point, he did like a Tatum, put fake forward, step back three. And I was like, you're 18. What the fuck was that? How do you, you should have that in like year five. Like you're shooting that now? a third quarter? Like, I couldn't believe it.

I first laid eyes on Cooper Flagg when he was about 14, 15 years old. And I started telling everybody I knew about him then. Like, I'm just like, just wait till this guy's ready for the draft. At that point, of course, you don't even know where he's going to go to school. You know, any of that. I just know that when you see what jumped out to me immediately was this dude has a competitive toughness about him, like an edge.

And he was a target every time he walked onto a court at the AAU level. Like every team was looking to him. They were talking to him, starting with the opening, you know, jump ball circle. He's got somebody in his ear telling him what they're not going to let him do to them tonight. And he's been hearing that since he was, you know, literally 12, 13, 14 years old. And some guys can handle all that. Some guys can't. He clearly could.

Then it became a matter of all right, he's got the athletic ability, the size, the toughness. He loves playing defense. That jumped out to me, man. He's got a lot of want to. Then you just don't know, like, how much will he add between now and, like, like the time he's 18, 19, and he's ready for the draft, and he added a hell of a lot. Now, I think his shooting is going to be streaky this year. He's going to contribute to them in winning ways.

I think a lot of nights without necessarily having big scoring nights, the shooting is going to be up and down and all over the place, but what's not going to be up and down is that guy's desire competitiveness and, like, winning attitude about how he approaches the game. That, to me, is what stood out more than anything else. so the confidence level's there but it doesn't happen like the way it's happening for Edgecom very often this fast

where you get into that kind of rhythm and everything's going in early and so Cooper Flagg will be fine I think he's a can't miss but obviously he hasn't had a great start offensively here well I mean I would say 90% of that is they're asking him

to be the point guard of the team and run fast breaks and you know I just think that should have been like a year, four, year five thing. I know they don't have Kyrie back. It almost makes me wonder if Kyrie's coming back this year and they're like, we're just going to take our lumps with this until he figures it out.

And then we can play DeLo and the side here for 25 minutes a game, but we need these other 20 minutes from flag. It's a team that I was really bullish on them because of the defense and the size. And I just think it's going to be choppy, but I'm not giving up on it. But the one thing with him, his ability to rebound, bring the ball down and find somebody like either a cutter or like three on two fast break he's doing

stuff that it's pretty high level but then then you watch like some of the pressing stuff that's happening which was one of the things that wanted we could talk about it now I'm shocked by the and this started last year now it's really happening this year is teams pressing and teams trying to put miles on the best players of other teams the Celtics stated in the Pistons game where they they had Hugo Gonzalez just bug the shit out of Cade just follow them around everywhere really put the miles on them

and it's something I feel like Indiana started and now more teams are doing it and they're using deeper benches and just trying to put miles on the other team. That's one trend. Are there other trends you're seeing other than that one?

Well, I want to talk about that one for a second because you're right and a number of coaches that I talk to and I got a chance to talk to all of these guys at the coaches meetings, right? a couple weeks before the season started and now I've had two games so I've had four more coaches

you could talk to about these things and the metrics pointed out the data shows them that that stuff matters in terms of attrition over the course of a game and pressuring up on these guys particularly guys that are constantly initiating

and always have the ball first in the back court. It's going to affect guys less if you have a secondary ball handler that could do that at a high level or if just these are some guys that are really high level players they'll run up to

floor without the ball, you know, a good amount throughout the game. And then they get into action from there. But there are guys in this league. If they're on the floor, it's almost always in their hands coming up to court, particularly after made baskets or dead balls. And they're seeing on film and just the numbers bear out, it matters over the course of a game. And it wears guys down a little bit. In the case of Cooper Flag, the thing that I really loved about it when I saw him in Vegas was and I know he wasn't playing against you know NBA rotational players for the most part but he was able to handle the ball against smaller much quicker players who could beat him to the spot yeah but he didn't have any problem manipulating the ball up the floor

against that and that really stood out to me like man I didn't know he had that kind of command of his handle where he was not affected by the pressure of some of these guys that were in that six four six five range that were really quick picking him up didn't seem to phase him at all. I agree with you, Bill. I think it's too much to ask out of the gate for a guy that's trying to find his confidence as a player at this league, a lot of pressure, a lot of eyes on them. To now say, okay, can you also please help facilitate and coordinate and orchestrate where guys are going to be and get guys shots? It's not that natural to them. There's a big difference between being a ball handling forward and a point guard. Those are two

entirely different things. So when I got DeAngelo Russell, I said, hey, this is a perfect pickup to buy time until Karee comes back. The Angela Russell has played some high-level basketball in this league at the point-guard position. Let him play point. And that Cooper Flagg have some situations where he gets the handling ball screen and handle in transition if he takes off the glass himself.

That's a weapon for your team. That should not be, to me, his focal point on walk-it-up situations. I just think it's too much to put on his plate right out of the gate when you've got a guy like DeAngelo Russell's sitting there. Yeah, and I think they'll move away for it, maybe run more of the half court with them. But, you know, I watched the Celtics put this on Tatum slowly over the course of five, six years, right?

Where he, and last year, he was really good as a point forward of finding people and creating stuff. There's still a last level, though, that I just don't think you could ever ask for somebody like that who's not a natural point guard. Like, there's still true point guards. They're taking care.

of everybody. They're thinking about everybody. They're like, oh, Anthony Davis hasn't had a shot in four minutes. I got to get him one or he's going to stop playing defense. Like there's these little things that you just can't expect somebody like Flagg to know, right? Let me, let me, let me sum it up this way. That's a great point. And here is the difference psychologically. And I actually talked about this.

And the guy that I used as an example of somebody that can do it at a really high level, who I love watching play, who's Lonzo Ball, who joined the Cavs this year, right? And here's the difference. Guys like that that have been doing that their whole life, when there's one guy in front of them or there's, you know, it's two-man action they're running. Either way, they're already scanning and anticipating the next reaction of the next defender. And they kind of know what these chain of events are going to lead to based on what I do, this is what should be open. And there's multiple reads taking place. and all it's about is the next defender that's not in the initial action.

Whether that's the ISO guy in front of him, he's looking at the second defender that's going to be the help guy. If it's a two-man game he's running, he's thinking about the next defender that's going to get into the paint or whatever they're going to do based on the action going to run, and he's thinking about making a play for that guy on his team. Scorers that can make plays, it's a totally different thing. Their playmaking comes after their own scoring is. been exhausted, right? Those options have been exhausted. And now, like, as an afterthought,

okay, there's a play to be made. And look, some of those guys do it at a really high level. They can give you those 35.8 assist nights. But the assists come after they have hunted for themselves. And now something organically happens for a guy. That's different than thinking the game the way that I described. When you're already manipulating the pieces defensive with your eyes and you're understanding what the next thing's going to be and that's the chain of events is going to dictate where I throw the ball. That's a totally different level of thinking, of facilitating and like running a team that most scorers at a high level at the NBA level aren't going to really do it at the level of the guys I'm talking about that have played

that position in their entire life. Yeah, at some point it's a seesaw. And when you have the ball, the seesaw is either going to be like, I'm more of a score or I'm more of a creator for other people, right? My favorite players were always the ones that were always thinking about creating for everybody else and then could shift the seesaw. They actually needed to score. Yokech being the ultimate example of that, but Bird of Magic, like we've had a lot of those. I'm glad you brought up Lonzo, though. Kim on the Cavs is a really intriguing wrinkle for this season that I kind of didn't, you know, you never know if he's going to be healthy. They don't have their full team. It's going to be a while. But I just think he's one of the most

you know, if he's one of your nine guys, he's so additive when he's out there. He's just so much fun to play with. And the better, I don't think he's ever been on a team that had players like this. And I just, it just made me think like,

man, when they get everybody back, what kind of lineups are they going to use? Are they ever going to have a drop-off when you have Garland and Mitchell, but then you have Lonzo as this third guard? Like, I actually think that team has a higher ceiling

than maybe I thought. Now, who knows if he could stay healthy. But did you notice that? he definitely is somebody that I paid attention to the acquisition and I've always been a huge fan of his really really cheered for him making his way all the way back from what he went through most guys wouldn't have had the will to do it so I pull for guys like that because he loves it

and now you see the acquisition and they lost Ty Jerome had a very good year for them and they bring Alonzo ball and I'm kind of like okay that's interesting let's see how that looks and then I talked to Kenny Atkinson a few weeks ago and just talking about their team their season and whatever and what he was saying about Lonzo Ball and what he was seeing led me to think going into that first game

we called Cavs Nix that now I was really anticipating his impact and it's so obvious when he got on a court. Yeah, and Bill, here's how I described him and there's not that many guys I would describe in this way. His sole reason for existing on a basketball court

is to make guys better on his own team. Yeah. And man, as a shooter that I love when I played with guys, that even tried to think that way. It's just so fun to play with them because it's really, and he's going to take his shots

and he's going to read defenses and he'll do his thing. But it's really all about if you're willing to expand energy offensively with running and cutting and movement, that he is going to absolutely make your life easier

and make everything easier for you as a scorer. And I saw it even that night. His advance passes are on that level with like a Jason kid, a Steve Nash, where the ball is thrown on a rope up to sideline, 30 or 40 feet, and it's kind of a subtle thing you don't notice, but it puts so much pressure on the defense running back that it leads to awesome secondary offense. And Lonzo is so good at the advance pass.

And I think you're right. This is going to be one of those role player acquisitions that we're going to be talking about having a major impact all season long. I think Al Horford's another one of those in Golden State. Like those will be two examples of guys that join teams and systems. Yeah, I know. I didn't mean to, you know, put you in a bad mood with the Horper talk. Too soon, Leibler.

Too soon for us. I know. I hear you, man. Especially with the start, Dave had. Especially when you see the Celtics big guys. Let's, we'll take a break and I have a whole bunch of stuff to throw you. And now it's time for a don't settle. A new segment presented by State Farm.

You may think that insurance is all the same. But let me tell you something. Having insurance isn't the same. as having state farm. Don't settle for just any insurance when they're a state farm. It's a little like the Patriots right now. The Patriots are six and two. They hired a new coach last year.

The team wasn't very well coached. They could have stuck with them another year, but they thought to themselves, you know, why are we just gonna settle with this? Mike Vrable's available. He's one of the best seven or eight coaches in the league. We have a franchise quarterback. Let's bring in a real coach here

that can maybe transform the culture of our team, turn us into an immediate playoff team with this fourth-place schedule we have and build something around our franchise guy, Drake May. They did not settle. And guess what? It worked great. You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team on the football field. The Patriot sure didn't.

Shouldn't be the same for your insurance? Don't settle for just any insurance when there's State Farm. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. By rule, because this is a basketball podcast today, we have to spend at least five to ten minutes on the spurs, which not only are the most interesting story of this season, but is the water cooler topic this year, is the league pass team that has to be on

if you're watching multiple games at once. And what Wembe's doing, I remember for the year on Fandole, he's 12 to 1 to win the MVP. Now it's like, now he's one of the favorites. I guess we're here. House and I talked about on my podcast on Thursday where it's like, I guess we're here.

I guess he's one of the guys now. Yokage, Yonis, Luca, SGA, whatever order you want. Do you feel like he has to be with those four guys now from just what you've seen in four games? There's no doubt about it. I would have said that after probably the first half of the first game because I'm sitting there like everybody.

And, you know, obviously he shut it down last year. And we saw things last year too. And I had already thought about him, even in a limited amount of time we saw him last year, that I felt like every time I watched Wembeyanma, there was something he did in that game that I would say that's the only guy in the league that could have done that.

And he gave me at least one of those every night. And so the anticipation was there. Let's see what this looks like this year. What has he added? You know, they had already said he got stronger and that really translates more like functionally stronger than necessarily body mass. Functional strength is a real thing.

And so like leg stuff, right? He seems sturdier and just... He's on balance. His base is better, yeah. When he drives and he's got a defender riding his rim and his hip and his rib cage, he's not pushed, like where he's not going in a straight line at the rim anymore, where he would drift off toward the baseline and shoot something off balance off one foot. He's releasing the ball when he wants to now.

He's playing through some of that contact, so it's more extended toward the rim, and it just improved his efficiency. So he's stronger. I saw the first half of that first game, and I'm going, is I don't know what exactly teams are supposed to do offensively against this and it's translating to them being four

and oh no look they've played three bad teams and if you throw Dallas in there maybe even three and a half bad teams right now because I think Dallas will be okay they're not very good right now and then three other not very good teams and it's okay but let's look at like what's really going on you can't score

in the paint against this team and they're not giving up anything at second chance points they're okay and transition mediocre when you can't score in the paint against teams right now you're relegated to just taking even more threes than you want lower efficiency shots probably because you have more guys taking them but you don't want taking them because you can't get to the rim this is what it looks like a suffocating defense that really kind

of demoralizes you and i've seen some shoulders drop against the san antonio spurs so far that you don't typically see at the NBA level like literally getting dispirited with how difficult this is looking to get to them and also then what the way he's scoring at you and making you feel so small on the other end of the floor it's it's really been like wow moments like i can't believe the way that guys are sagging their heads dropping their heads because they're that frustrated with what this looks like to them on the court so yeah man there's no doubt wemby is in now must see category um and that team is going to be as a result yeah he's surrounded by these pit bulls basically And they're on their own

really, really athletic, aggressive, scary defenders, but then they're back by him. And the cornet thing was big, which any Celtic fan knew that that was going to be good for them. They can play them together, which I was expecting,

but they actually kind of make sense because Wembe drifts a little more outside. He's way closer to the rim offensively, which I think was my biggest frustration with him, and they've really tried, you can feel the geometry of that shifting. Then they have this weird fox. situation because

I want Dylan Harper to play. There's really something there that I think they need to tap into now. Castle went up a level. I think if you talk about like who went up a level this year, like he's, he would be on the first team for that. And now they're going to move Fox in who's been an

all star who's in the prime of his career who just signed a new contract. I think that's going to be a good thing. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, it's going to be a challenge to figure out how all those guys are comfortable. Like, that's the thing. Because it's, they all, and even Castle more so this year than I saw him last year at all, just with the ball in his hands, as a playmaker. And like reading

high ball screen, like just different loops, like all of that stuff. All kind of advanced stuff. Yeah. Fox is more of like, you know, he's more of like an engine, go get mine score. He can facilitate. But like even in, in Sacramento, like a lot of the real facilitating took place through Subonis. Dan Fox just goes. He's got this elite speed and elite pull up. range. That's his game. Harper and Castle are different types of players. Fascinating to watch all of them. And I'm curious when they have all three at their disposal, like how those minutes get allocated. Yeah, it's funny when you're thinking of nip picks for the spurs before the year and we're like, well, the shooting's going to be an issue. Like those guys are, and it's like, it actually

doesn't matter. These guys are the most frightening, athletic, giant, weird team that anyone's going to play all year. The demoralizing thing is interesting. I want to I'm going to look out for that when I'm watching because Well, can I give you two examples of it? Yeah. So go back and if I were you and you can catch this just if you just get the highlight reel from each

of his games. Because it'll be an eight, nine minute tape of just him and the stuff that he's doing, right? So take a look at some of the reaction from Zion in that game against the Pelicans. Take a look at some of the reaction of Anthony Davis in the Dallas game.

And look, I know the Dallas game. I saw more of it after the score got a little lopsided. Yeah. And so maybe that was part of it for AD. But, but there was definitely kind of like this look of like, like, almost like submission, like defensively against him. And I was like, wow, you know, and look, it's early in the year. They don't have all their guys. Kyrie's not out there. They're down 25. I get it. I'm not making a big judgment on Anthony Davis. I'm actually more complimenting Wambayama because like if you're doing that to a guy with that caliber, that's that good defensively and his reputation is

actually good defensively in this league and it's it's just like what you're doing to this team makes them look futile and and then with Zion it was more like what he was doing to Zion like defensively against Zion like Zion's not used to that just bowling over everybody and getting any shot he wants in the

paint and guess what that's not happening put his shoulder into your sternum move you and then he's great he's got that he extends it out to his left hand he's all these great touch shots with English he puts someone at high off the glass. And he was putting his shoulder into the sternum. Actually, on Wembe and Yow was more like his belly button than his sternum.

And then Wembe is like giving ground, giving ground, giving ground, but still reaching over the top of him like an umbrella. And so Zion would still try to shoot it and get it blocked. And like you could see him like shake his head and start like shuffling back down the court like on defense. Like so frustrated. It looked very young. He looked like a very young player getting. frustrated, right? And these are two guys

that are elite players in this league and that's what Wembe Giamma is capable of doing to you. Yeah, that's a really rare level to get to. Like you were in the league when after Jordan came back, when him and Pippen were together that first season, and they were doing some stuff defensively, athletically

where they were, it was almost like watching a great NFL defense or something where they would just where they would just kind of ruin the quarterback's brain but it was, in this case, these were really good NBA players who were just like I'm I'm I'm kind of broken can you just take me out like you saw it and I wonder that was the only team bill that I ever played against those mid 90s bulls teams that that like

when you would foul them and now they're going to the line when they've got rodman pipin Jordan like that group Harper and now they're going to the line and you're going God here they here comes this press like you know you don't you never worried about getting pressed in the NBA most teams that have tried to like zone press and they would go to like a one two one one press like that doesn't work at the NBA level the teams that have tried that in the past um you're giving up so much easy fast stuff the other way and but yet they were so long and so fast and so aggressive and and the rules kind of allowed a little bit more grabbing and holding and slapping and like that

kind of stuff in the back court it was kind of like oh man the last thing you wanted to do was break to the ball in the back court in the corner like and catch the ball and like so you do anything you could to avoid that death trap down there. So, yeah, and again, yeah, so it's that feeling of like, man, this is like a little bit overwhelming, like this defense, because you hadn't seen anything like it. That was the best defensive team I ever played against. And I played against the mid-90s Knicks teams, those Pacers teams, the heat. These are great defensive teams, but nothing really, to me, was really on the level

because of the athletic ability, quickness, and length of those Bulls teams. And now it's like a different level of demoralization with what Wembe can do with the ground he covers an amount of coverage in the lane. I don't know what that even looks like to these guys on the court. I'd be fascinated to drop into a virtual world and see what that looks like with Wemby on the court putting his arms out to the side and how difficult that must look to score. Yeah, there was a moment in that Dallas game where Flagg, who's played against everybody

and obviously there's a ton of confidence. And he could tell you, he was like, ah, fuck this Wembe guy. I'll go right at him. And he had this one where he took him and he was about to shoot in Wemby's giant spider arm came out and he just kind of stopped and then he but he had already picked up his dribble and then he kind of had to turn and get rid of the ball and you could see him like he couldn't like compute what just happened which seems like that's every game where these guys who played basketball their old lives and they're like I'm going to do this oh I guess I'm not

going to do that uh help anyone um and that's and now I want to see him I want to see like so now I've got a little bit of a sample of it with the two guys I mentioned Now, if that starts happening on a regular basis where it's just like this overwhelming frustration for some of these guys, it's going to be fascinating. The other thing he's changed, Bill, like we're talking about he got functionally stronger.

Like, what is he added? He's meaner. I love it. He's meaner because he's a little older, man. He was young, foreign-born player coming into the league, super hyped, really thin. And like, guys trying to get up in him when he was handling the ball.

He had a lot of turnovers at first 15, 20 games. He played. And we're like, okay, okay, I guess, that seven five handles not going to work in this league after all like some people drawing conclusions on him right right away and I'm going he's he's like nice and he's like he's kind of shy in a way and like what what I do he's he's got none of that he shed all of that stuff he's got this nasty edge to him now where he is walking onto the court and he wants to rip your heart out he wants to do the things we're talking about I want to demoralize you and frustrate you and I'm coming

for you like every trip he didn't he didn't have that until this year and so It's really going to be fascinating to see what this guy's season looks like. There's some ceiling stuff with that team. I was looking at the Fanduil stuff, which always tells you kind of has the market caught up with what I think I'm seeing with my eyes. Like, they're still for their division, right, which their division has Houston in it, it has Dallas, Memphis, and New Orleans. and I was like, I feel like San Antonio versus Houston, not only for records, but for the division. To me, that's a toss-up because I think they're as good as Houston.

And I know it's small sample size, schedule hasn't been great yet. I don't really care. Like, I think they're as good as Houston if Wemby can play 65 to 70 games. But, like, they're plus 2.10 for the division. It's like nobody kind of believes it yet. And I think it's because people just want to see Wemby play for three straight months. Can you think of another reason? from a talent standpoint, they're with Houston, I think.

I think, I don't, I don't know if I'd agree that they're necessarily there from a talent standpoint, but I think that Wembe Nama alone kind of makes up for anything. If you look at like head-to-head matchups and maybe. I was factoring that in, though. They have a top five guy. Houston is not. Okay, I thought maybe you were talking like just like one through eight looking at all those guys. Okay, yeah.

So Wemba Niam makes up for some of that. That's going to be the fascinating thing for me to see. And I'm just glancing at this. I mean, this is kind of crazy, unless I'm, oh, here you go. They play them Friday, November 7th. So that's going to be a first opportunity to see what that looks like. Because, look, Houston has the potential to be top three, top four defensive team in the league. They've got athletes and size that they can throw at him.

Quickness. The changing ends of the floor can be something that they can use against when I'm. I'm fascinated to see it. But I'd look, look, it's four games in. it's been absolutely jaw-dropping some of the things we've seen out of him again the schedule has been favorable to get off to this kind of start let me see them play some of the true top-tier teams in the western conference then you'll get a much better idea of the sustainability of like san antonio

winning to where like are they more than like a playing team are they is this a top six team top five team top four team like is that you change your mind to that extent I'm probably going to need to see about 15 to 20 game sample size to kind of come to those conclusions because some weird stuff happens right out of the gate with some of these teams and some that's not sustainable and then other teams have been really bad that you know are going to be better.

So I want to give it a little bit more time. Well, here's the problem. I'm more easily influenced than you and I'm more impetuous. So I think they're there already. I think that you think... By the way, there's nothing wrong. It's smart to make the prediction now because here's the thing.

feel this way. I really think they're a 50 win team. Like, I genuinely do. I think they're loaded. I, I, I'm kind of in disbelief. You're going to look pretty damn smart. Like, people are going to be like, wow, Bill called this after a week, 50 win team. So, and if you're not right, I don't think a lot of people are going to hold on to that. So I think it's worth the risk to make that kind of prediction. Before the year, we did our over under as me and Zach Lowe and Joe House. And one of my locks was San Antonio over 43 and a half because I was like, I just had too much talent. I can't imagine if Wemby's going to play. The ceiling for them has gone up in what I watched. I think that Houston game is a really interesting game to point to, though. Because you're right. On the one hand, Houston's got big bodies to throw at Wembe, and we're going to really see him get tested in a different way.

On the other hand, St. Antonio has all of these defenders and people to throw at this Houston. We don't have a guard situation where it's like, Durant's going to bring the ball up this time. Thompson will bring it up this time. It's like, okay, are you going to still do that when we're pressuring you 94 feet and bringing in waves of dudes

and we have Wembe. So in a weird way, they're going to pick at each other's warts and that's just a good rivalry to begin with. I totally agree with that. And I think you might, listen, I had him at the underone that number

because I saw that number two because I thought they were going to be around a 500 team. And I'm not 100% convinced yet. There's a 50 win team because I want to see them play better competition. But here's what is undeniable. If Victor Wemianama and Yama

stays healthy and he, He plays, you know, 70 to 75 games. If he gives them that, they're going to be top five defensive-rated team in the league without question. And there's going to be a lot of nights. If you don't make enough threes against them, you can't beat them because you're just not going to score enough points, you know, inside 20 feet. And that's what I'm looking at now with San Antonio.

Like I think that part of the equation is sustainable because they've got good perimeter defenders to go with it, funneling it to this guy. Yeah. That's going to give them opportunities on, nights when they don't shoot well to win games. So that's going to be there. Now let's see

what great defensive teams can do against them. And that's what I need to see. If you were Houston, would you say fuck it and use your assets and try to get a real guard and be cutthroat and use the Van Blee contract and

use some of the Brooklyn Phoenix stuff and really try to get somebody who could change your destiny and make you a title contender right now? Because they're out without a guard. A couple weeks ago, I said, and I think some people in Houston lost their minds, and I said, if Reed Shepard turns out not to be able to take that leap this year, and I first of all, I like Reed Shepard a lot, I think Reed Shepard's going to have a nice career in this league. If it turns out he's not quite ready, and they see that

after like 20 games. When you've got Kevin Durant at this stage of his career, you didn't bring him in to think about any sort of long-term horizon beyond this season. You're thinking about winning it all this year and next year and however many years he plays. But every year, you're recalibrating to win a championship. So if Reed Shepard is not quite ready to do that, and you're going, man, like this kind of run your offense by committee through Amin Thompson, Durant, and Shangoon, is this not good enough particularly in tight games in the fourth quarter when you've got to really execute and organize and make great decisions on the break and all the stuff you have to. And no fast breaks. You're not getting any fast break points at all if you have no

point card. That's exactly right. And I said then if that's the case, they may look to make a trade and try to bring in a point guard. And I do think that's true. Now, we're not ready to quite do that yet. We're a week in. But let's look at this as you get to late November, like early December and see what their, what's their record in, in crunch time games. What is their efficiency in the last three minutes of close games?

That's going to kind of tell you if they think what they have is good enough or not. And if it's not, would not be surprised one bit. If they went out and added a point guard just because of where you are with Kevin Durant in this stage of his career

and how long are you going to have them? And you've got to try to win it if you have them on your roster. It's that simple. Well, we saw it the same way. You have to give Rudy Shepard 20 games. They're going to be a playoff team. They don't need to panic.

but when it gets to mid-December range, Christmas time, and also you're going to have a couple teams that either I've decided, ah, we suck, or didn't realize we weren't going to be good. Maybe we should make a trade. The Celtics are a really good example of this. I don't want to trade Derek White, but the Celtics aren't good. I thought the Celtics were going to be like an 8, 9, 10 seed, and win a playing game when Tatum came back.

I don't think that's happening. And I actually wonder, I was going to talk about this with you later, but we can talk about it now. I actually wonder if the way they built the team was kind of a really stealth tank situation. They can't rebound. They can't protect the rim or rebound.

I knew this going in, but my stupid Celtics brain was like, oh, they're going to shoot threes. They'll play with pace. They have the infrastructure. They're not going to get stops. They're not going to be able to rebound. And at some point,

you've got to look at Derek White. right. And I know I'm not the first one or bring this up. I'm not the last. But at some point you look at Derek White in his early 30s, who's a winning player who's awesome, who would be great on Houston and could be a missing piece for them. And it's like, is that a trade that makes sense for both sides? That's the kind of stuff that we don't know now. But around Christmas, if the Celtics are 10 and 22, maybe you start thinking about it. Well, first of all, I was kind of with you in terms of what I thought their ceiling was this year. That's about where I had them. And again, that probably sounds 500-ish, right? That's kind of where I was thinking.

I was like, okay, man, this team was used to winning games. They've still got a toughness there. Like, they've got Jalen Brown to kind of be the main guy. Derek White is a great, like, next option. They're going to be fine. They're hard to guard because of their style. Here's the problem. And this was the one thing I was worried about. It's kind of looking that way early. It's one thing just to say we're going to, this is the way we play. We're going to keep playing that way. We're going to take 46 threes a night, and that's what they're doing right now. They're shooting 31% on those. And you know why?

Because the quality of the shots aren't as good. Because Jason Tatum anymore. Right. Because you don't have Jason Tatum. So Jason Tatum was the magnet to create leverage defensively to shift the defense and to make you accountable in communications. And that extra body being four feet closer to the action meant a longer closeout to the role player on the weak side.

And that meant a difference between a contested and a semi-contested or an open shot. And that's a big deal to role-play. those guys that are standing out there waiting on the ball when you've got action taking place that tatum's initiating and there's this big shift in the defense and now the ball comes your way that extra half count matters a lot and now you're seeing that with them so i'm kind of worried like you are because i'm going and then like there's not like there's this physical dimension to them defensively where you're like okay that that's going to keep them afloat every night that's not really been there look derrick white and preton pritchard are really

struggling to shoot the ball right now, and they hit a heater at the same time, that's going to help a lot, but it's not going to improve the overall quality on average of the shots you're taking. And that is why they were so lethal from the three point line most nights.

That's not really there now. And so here we are, one and three, and I texted you a couple of his goal. They lose, if they're 0 and 3, like if they lose this next one, man, but they got to win. Oh, man. I was on so many Celtics threads about If we lose this New Orleans game, the next three here, Cleveland at Philly and then Houston the next night.

And it was like, are we going to go, oh, and seven? Is this like going to be, like what happens if they go, but they got one? But I still, I'd find it hard to believe unless they just shot 25 for 50 from three that they're going to win any of the next three games. On the flip side, this Philly thing, and we didn't do locks either way. Like the Philly over under for wins was 42 and a half. It's like, great. I have no idea what's going to happen with this team. But I leaned under because of Mbid.

I just don't see it. I don't think he's going to stay healthy. Did not see the VJ Maxi thing coming. What's really interesting is the style and how fast they're playing. And then what happened with Maxi, where if you're going to make the list of like Leap guys this year, he's the number one. I mean, it's not even close.

He looks like a different guy. And he was good last year. This year is different. This year he's looking like he's moving toward that Mitchell Brunson kind of group. which I would not have expected. What do you see him with Maxie? I agree. That's a good group to put him in.

And I'm looking at a guy that is one of the quickest in the league from 30 feet to the rim. Like he's just an absolute blur. You cannot keep, especially going to his right hand. He's got unlimited range. He shoots it incredibly well going left off the dribble to the point where like most defenses aren't willing to extend on ball screen. So he gets that shot whenever he wants. The one thing he's getting this year pretty regularly is getting calls,

which we're going to get into a lot of guys are getting calls, but he's getting the whistle this year and the benefit of the doubt on a lot of stuff he didn't last year. Now, listen, he's playing out of his mind, they're winning games. I don't think they're doing it if he doesn't, isn't doing that at the same time,

Edgecombe is playing the way he is. It's the combination of the two of them has been this relentless onslaught from the guard position on teams that no one has really been able to figure out here early in the year. Do they put up 136 on Orlando? I know. I know, and I watched every second of that game at no point.

And Orlando, by the way, last year, in teams I saw live, and I saw, I don't even know, probably 26 teams live last year, I would bet. Orlando impressed me more than any team in the league defensively. And it was a game, it was an ABC game at Cleveland when Cleveland had that long winning streak. It was like 15 games or something. And Orlando snapped that streak. And they did it primarily because they just, absolutely got up in Cleveland, who at the time was on a heater like you couldn't believe.

Their efficiency was off the charts. They were actually like 125 points in the previous 20 games. And Orlando completely got into them. And I was so impressed how hard they played. So you're talking about top five defensive team. They, at no point against Philly, did they contain the basketball for the entire game? At every time you looked up, someone was getting beaten off the dribble on the perimeter. And then Philly just the freedom and the freewheeling mentality, like,

Up the floor, even after made baskets, they're throwing like one pass ahead, and Kelly Ubrae just shoots a 28-footer with no thought to it. So all of these guys are clicking. It's set up by Maxie and the way Edgecombe has played. There's a spirit about this team in the city right now. Like, these fans are flipping out over how fun they are to watch. And, you know, you've had very little out of Embed,

nothing out of Paul George. And yet the fan base is almost taking the approach. and I know all these guys. I talk to these people that love the team all the time. They're just like, man, I don't even care anymore. Like, this is a breath of fresh air to watch this. This group of dudes having fun, playing fast, so good offensively, with like this joy about them.

And, you know, you still have these guys over there in street clothes. You know, everybody's got one eye on. But right now, they've been one of the best stories in the league to this point because of the way Edgecom's played and the start that Maxis had. Yeah, I came. I was at the Dodger game first. a hundred hours last night. So I missed all the basketball. And I woke up this morning and had coffee and I'm still a mess from night before. But I was like, all right, I got to watch like two fourth

quarters and I have time to watch one half. What am I going to watch? I was like, clearly I have to watch the second half of Philly or Atlanta. I want to know what's happening. And then, and I watched the whole Philly Boston game last week, too, is what you said, they're just pushing, pushing, and they have Maxie who's basically like the craziest downhill running back in the league right now, he's just going and you can't stay nobody can stay in front of them. They flipped that Celtic game last week. I thought the Celtics had that game

we're going to win by 10. And Maxi just kind of brought them back, made crazy threes, just kept pushing, pushing, then VJ's in it. And they have this style that, not to be a dick, makes zero sense for Joe L&B the way they're playing.

Like there's no, it's almost like they're two teams now. And maybe there's a way to kind of meld both of them and maybe he plays like two 10 minutes stretches each half, but he doesn't make sense with this team. And I don't, in a weird way, I agree with you. I know a lot of Sixers fans

too. And all of them are like, I don't care. I love VJ and Max. I don't really care what happens anymore. I just want to see these two guys. So they're going to navigate it. But I think they're clearly a playoff team with those two guys if they play like that. And I think what's going on right now kind of with their fan base is

the lack of availability is just, it's just worn on them over years. And here's what, here's where the issue they're going to run into it's going to be a problem for them and and you get a guy like paul george for instance so this team is playing great fast fun all these touches for maxi and edgecom you know quentin grimes and ure the next two guys and they got all the freedom in the world and now okay at some point paul george is going to play and b's going to be out there certain nights everything looks different it bogs down more not that it beads not obviously more dominant player guys in mbp in this league

but it slows everything down it's less touches for these for these fun energetic guys that are putting up numbers and in Paul George's case I can't imagine like if this team I don't even know when he's going to play or like what their record's going to be but if their record's really good and this he finally sees the court

and all of a sudden it bogs down and he gives you know a four for 12er well I didn't think the Philly fans will handle that if that's what I'm talking about the game down like what during the game

in real time they're going to be turning on him it's going to be a mutiny it's going to be a mutiny and now what happens what happens is I've seen this You know, that's the city I lived in for so long.

You go to these games in the, in the, any of the sports teams of Philly, and you feel the heaviness being transferred onto the court from the stance. Like, and now becomes very difficult for that player to kind of navigate through that. And, and I'm worried, especially Paul George, who I wouldn't say is like incredible with adversity. It's going to be a very interesting situation. You know, this is, this is the best case scenario. everybody was kind of sitting back and waiting to see what was the start of the year going to look like to fill it here's what's crazy bill you can talk about these all these over

unders so went through 29 teams when i was doing mine and then i get i saved them for last because i said there's one team in this league whose range is 24 to 54 right it's the highest ceiling lowest floor it's like a 40 story building you just have no idea yeah it's incredible I still don't think we still don't know that. It's been a great start. But at least it's more hopeful that if, because I'm thinking on that 24 was my thinking of, and B, you know, again,

gives you a 25 games. Paul Georgia hurt most of the year. They're going to do it again, 25 wins. But now I'm going, wait a second, if those guys do have those kinds of years physically, now I look at this team and go, this style and this level of explosive firepower, they're going to hang in more games than they could have a year ago.

And so they're going to win, they're going to win more games. So it's not going to be the worst case scenario for that team this year. I went through this Edgecombe thing is so unusual and so unexpected. I went to, I went basketball reference as that stathead where you can look up careers. And I was just looking up guards, 21 and under first year. How rare is it for, because in your head, as the years passed, you're like, oh, Dwayne Wade must have been 25 a game that first year. He wasn't, but he was really good. He was impactful.

But when you talk about guys coming in right away and being really good, just recently, Wade and Donovan Mitchell were the two that came in and were just immediately good and were 20 points of game guys and could run a little offense and do a lot of the, and we're explosive and athletic. You know, Jordan obviously, Luca obviously coming in, they were scoring. And then there's guys like Iverson and Jha and Stackhouse and Tyreek Evans that were putting up stats, but you wouldn't call them winning players. The VJ thing's different because he's a winning player who's also getting stats.

Like it just jumps out immediately. It jumped out in the tape from when he was in college, but now it's even better now where if he doesn't have the ball, he still knows what to do. He's still moving. He's still like, oh, maybe I can get a back cut. Maybe I can get an offensive rebound. This guy needs help.

I'm going to go over there. Like he's just helpful in a way that I think is just so unusual for rookie. guards. In my opinion, the Sixers fans cannot be excited enough about him. Like, he's really special. If I was, you know, if I was going to like just share the text thread with all my friends, what you're saying is it doesn't even come close to how excited these people are about what they're seeing at Edgecom and Maxie, who's already, his popularity in Philadelphia is already through the ceiling.

And a beloved guy, the whole thing. Yeah. I mean, it's just so easy to like them. And now on top of you pair him with this guy, there's a couple things, Bill, that I see at edgecom that are really going to bode well in terms of just projecting, like, is this real what we're watching? Yeah. And it's this.

It's this. One, he has the ability to go from a very relaxed state with the ball to buy you in an accelerated state at like a level like, I'm not comparing him to Shay Gilges-Alexander, but it's some of that where it's like all of a sudden he's relaxed, you're slightly relaxed defensively. And then when he decides to go, he goes. that first step in push and acceleration is by guys or he's forcing you into such an like overreactionary retreat he can stop and make an 18 foot jump shot pretty easily that's the first thing that is a special god-given innate athletic quality that's going to create separation

for him all the time that was young way to Miami that first year that's a great what's a great just immediately you're like wait what's going on here why is this coming so easily to this guy so anyway what is your second thing totally great the second one is watch Vijay Edgecombe, when he shoots the ball, whether it's at the foul line, a three, or something off to dribble, like a pull-up, how strong and, like, intentional he is with from his, like, his, for basically his elbow to his fingertips. He is so strong with his follow-through and his wrist, most young shooters come into the league, and because things are happening fast, faster than they've ever happened, they don't stay with their shot. And they flick it. And then their hand is down. and they're kind of like, and they didn't stay with it.

And he has this ability, I guess, because he's just a mature offensive player. He's not phased by the speed of the game. So he is staying with his release better than most young players do. And as a result, he's making shots at a really high level right away to start his career, even deep shots and mid-rangers, contested shots, because he's not affected by the pace of this game. And that's very rare for a young guard to come into the league. flag harper edgecombe one two three in the running for best one two threes we've had potentially

because usually you hit two not three you know three in a row that are like these guys can be all individually it could be all NBA guys and all three of them I think could be edgecombe you know I love that comparison game I probably do too much but it really does remind me a young Wade in a lot of ways who I just thought you know as the years past we played all those big high profile games he got older, we saw all these different versions of his career, but that early weighed when like, even before Shaq got on the team, but then the first two Shaq years was just, just crazy. Flipping this around to a sad topic, what, is it Orlando panic time yet, or is it just we got to figure out with the new guy? Like, I don't like how Palos, and I actually, I watched

the second half of the game last night and I watched some of their other stuff. I don't love how Palo has played. I thought he was going to be a leap guy. along the lines where we're talking about Maxi their bench just seems like it might suck which is something that I think they thought was going to be good

and it's a relief but the 136 I thought was a major major major major red flag so what did you see? That was a I mean they just got completely stripped down by the Sixers off the dribble and that's not really something

that's typical of that team. I'm not remotely panicking on Orlando yet I agree with you. I had them as potentially if this Bain thing hit potentially with their defensive mindset, Bancaro and Wagner, stay healthy all year, which last year they weren't.

They both missed chunks of time. I thought, hey, man, the three seeds up for grabs. Orlando's in that mix to get the threes. Because I think New York, Cleveland are going to finish one, too. I'd be surprised if they don't. Orlando's the next team. Now, it hasn't been a great start. The one thing that's been surprising,

their three-point shooting was anemic last year. It didn't give them a chance to win some. nights flat out. It was just so substandard for modern NBA. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just not enough, you know. So there are some nights, man, despite the fact there's a great defensive team and you

got a couple of really good offensive forwards, you're going to have to make like 13, 14, 3 some nights because that's what the other team required you to do. And they couldn't do that. So I thought, okay, not only is Bain directly going to improve that because he's going to make, you know, two, three a night. Some nights he's going to get hot and make six. but because of his presence and the way you're now going to rotate to him

it's going to mean a little extra time for some of the mediocre to below average shooters they have on their roster that didn't have as much time and I thought well then they're also going to be better shooters Bill we're three games in or whatever four games in they're averaging on an average night eight for 27

from the three point line that's worse than last year it's like having a bad field goal kicker in football where you're just giving away you're just minus six in field goals every game and you can't you have to make up the points somewhere else I know that's a great point and the other

it's another correlation because I love the NFL like you with the field goal kicking is not only that when field goal kickers miss and you give the other team the ball at their own 40 it's a big deal and it starts to plant right seeds of doubt in your head as a coach

well it's the same thing with these guys like some of these misses are triggering breaks yeah they're triggering breaks the other way because they're like not close. They're hitting the rim as a long rebound, especially a team like Philly that looks like a track relay team the way that they're getting up and out of floor. So I'm surprised at the Desmond Bain effect not being there right from the beginning,

but yeah, I'm not even close to giving up on them. Some teams find their rhythm offensively first. Some teams find it defensively first. Orlando has not found the same rhythm and physicality defensively that they had a year ago yet. And I think you've got a new guy you're incorporating. Their offense will get better too. I'm concerned, not panicking,

but I don't understand why the defense isn't better. You have Minnesota tomorrow night. Yeah. I went to Minnesota Lakers Friday and had good seats and really was soaking it in. The Minnesota guard situation is a real thing. Conley being a year older

and you could feel it the last couple years anyway, but at some point he's kind of moving it to that Elhor for a terrorist. where it's like, all right, this is 60 games, 20 minutes a game, and you're going to have to make do. I just couldn't believe Bones Highland was playing over Dillingham, a guy that they gave up a real asset for, and it's year two. And I thought he had a couple moments last year. I thought Minnesota, to me, was a true contender, one of the six. I had them in there because they have, you know, top seven, top eight guy. They have size. They, you know, Randall's happy.

they have a full year to put Randall DiFercienzo together. The guard situation really left me, I left the game and I'm like, I'm actually nervous for that team because they're missing something. As you're preparing for the game tomorrow night, what are you seeing? I love this point about Dillingham.

And look, I think, you know, there's a good chance we're not going to see, unfortunately, Anthony Edwards, Luca, or LeBron. So that takes a little luster off the game. Oh, God. Can they flex? Is there a flexed by that? I wish.

I know, I wish, I wish. So it does take a little of the luster off of it. But the Dillingham points important because I really liked them. I like the move in acquiring him because there was such a need there. And so now you think about it, where are you removed from coming out? Like, and you're looking, you're four games in. He's played two games, six and a half minutes a game. And that tells me something I'm concerned about.

Exactly. And I'm concerned, Bill. because when you have such a need at that spot and you still can't find a way to make that happen, that tells me that they're seeing something on a daily basis that I'm a little bit concerned now for like what's Dillingham's future. Now maybe he ends up,

maybe it's two years from now when he's on a team that's not as good getting a lot more run and that plays fast and now in the open court, he's going to score. And maybe we go, okay, Dillingham's going to be a filing fine NBA player or whatever.

But in this situation, you're going to get limited minutes. It's a team that's contending. They've been to two straight conference finals. They want to get to the finals. So everything is more scrutinized with their supporting cast. And you can't quite crack that yet. I'm a little concerned about that. I actually think maybe the two most important players on their team are going to be

Devinchenzo and Terrence Shanna Jr. Because those two guys have got to give them the supplemental offense they need consistently to be able to give them enough because their defense is going to be good enough, I believe. Of course you've got Edwards, Randall's a little bit inconsistent. So where are those, where's that next infusion

of offense is going to come from like consistently? Devin Chenzo has to stay healthy and it'll happen for him if he does. And then I think Terrence Shannon Jr. is one of those guys that you play in 15 minutes. He's damn you're going to get double figures most nights because he's so aggressive and confident with his offense. Maybe that can offset whatever they're not getting out of Dillingham.

But I thought if I was going to see Dillingham right out of camp being that guy that's getting you 18 to 20, 22 minutes some nights and playing very confidently and playing well. That's not the case here out of the gate. I'm a little concerned, and I'll see for myself, if Anthony Edwards doesn't play, there's going to be more opportunity for him on Wednesday night.

Let's see if Dillingham maybe does something to give me some hope. But right now, I'm not too hopeful, like how this is going to go for him this season. Doesn't look good. My thing is maybe that draft was just bad. sometimes we have that in football too where it's like the quarterback class

and then you look back at the quarterbacks and it's like Chibisky you know like it's like oh yeah we were ranking all these guys against each other and none of them were that good you think about that draft last year Reed Shepard was third

Fillingham was eighth and you know maybe it was just one of those weird draft years I have another sad topic for you we're almost done I actually think so the worst team of the last 30 years was the 2016

sixers that went 10 and 72. Yep. There's a team that I think could challenge that maybe be even worse. And I'm wondering if you're thinking of the same team I'm thinking. Well, there's only two teams. There's only, well, I don't know, man. I wouldn't put Washington in that category. So to me, then I think you're either talking about Brooklyn or New Orleans, right?

It's one of those two. Oh, you'd go New Orleans. Wow, I wouldn't do that. New Orleans actually has some talent. I think Brooklyn's thing is I don't see it at all My thing with New Orleans was just if Like Zion

Something happens to them physically Like Right And where would they pick Like they wouldn't Where would it be from an organizational standpoint So is it Brooklyn? Is that who you're talking about?

Yeah I think Brooklyn is Brooklyn's just Really awful And I'm not sure what that draft was last year With all those picks Which didn't make sense When they happened

but a couple of those guys and I'm not even sure like you know Agor he seems okay I'm not sure he could be running an offense I just don't see it with them and I don't think they want to be good either

and I'm just wondering like how bad are they going to be because they're not in these games like these games are over in the first quarter you took a and look they used all five picks which was I couldn't believe okay so but they did and four guards and their top two guys were two guards that

foreign born and slightly built and are going to take time yeah so and it's way too early to know and i saw some nice things and it's just you know it's just summer league it's the first time i laid eyes on these guys the first time i saw those guys uh i saw some some you know some nice things that i could like analyze out of them in summer league it's obvious that they weren't going to be ready. That's the start of the year to be major contributors. And when I say it takes time, sometimes that time never gets here.

Like we've seen guys. It's a POCO syndrome. It's like POCO. It's going to take time. It's not the week. No doubt about it. I mean, you could end up with like a Frank Nilakina on your hands. Like, you know, you're right?

I'm seriously like, because it's a risk. There's a lot of risk there. And you're counting on your personnel evaluators to like think that you hit it. And even though you know they're not ready, but like, no, it's in there. and hope they get it right. That's risky to take all those guys. And now you're right.

Look, you know, Cam Thomas is going to shoot the ball as much as he wants every night. And, you know, Michael Porter Jr. is going to have more freedom that he had in Denver. But what is that going to amount to? Not a lot. So I agree. Look, I agree. Like, Brooklyn's tough. In Washington, you know, they're going to lose, certainly lose their share of games.

But, like, there are guys I like watching. I want to watch some of those guys, particularly Trey Johnson, who was the most natural score I saw. this summer and I'm like this dude is a bucket getter immediately in the NBA and he's already doing that like 16 a game 47 percent like he's he can flat out score yeah they have a semblance of an identity yeah where they just have a lot of assets and a lot of guys who could create offense and I understand what they're trying to do they also probably don't want to make the playoffs but it makes a little more sense I was looking back at those early 90s seasons when there was a ton of talent seeing if there was a really bad team and uh I think the 90

or 93 Mavs went 11 and 71. And I thought that was notable because even when the bad team, like a team like Charlotte that I really like watching, it's probably my guilty pleasure league pass team, they have talent. Like they can go and just whack somebody 135 to 110, you know,

and they're not a playoff team. So when you're a bad team and it's not just a good team's killing you, but then it's like, oh, Washington beat us by 18. Like that tells me you might be really bad. I think, I don't know, they're over under a 17 and a half right now, and I still think that's five wins too high. I mean, they're like a 12, 10 to 12 win team.

Yeah, it'll be in the teens. I agree. It's funny you said that about Charlotte because, you know, we didn't, you and I didn't go over like our answers. We thought maybe this topic would come up like, who's your guilty pleasure team, that is probably not going to be a great team. That's who I wrote down too.

And the reason, honestly, more than anything else is, I just think Lamella Ball is incredibly entertaining. Like, he's just, he's just, He's just fun to watch. You never quite know what he's about to do, like trip by trip. And some nights that translates into incredible games, incredible soundlines. You know, he makes some questionable decisions along the way. But one thing you're not going to get cheated on is entertainment value.

Like, I'm going to sit there after the next two and a half hours, and this is going to be fun as hell. And I also, yeah, I really like Brandon Miller a lot. He hasn't really had kind of the start. I was hoping he'd have this year. Yeah, he got banged up. Because of the injury. And I was thinking, like, that's a guy right there that potentially. this year, you know, he elevates himself into that 20, 20 point per game type category because

I think he's got a lot of that in his game. They're fun, man. And I don't know. I don't know how many games are going to win. I mean, I don't know. Are they going to get 30? You think they can get 30? You know, high 20s? Like, I don't know. Right 20s. Early 30s seems conceivable to me. All right. That's the other one that's. LaBello makes it worth it. Chicago is the other one for this. Oh, yeah. They're just fun to watch. And like, if I just gave you a list right now. Orlando, Philly, Detroit, Chicago, Atlanta, Toronto, and those teams

were just in a tournament. Like, they're all kind of around the same. I don't know if that's going to be the case in January, but all of them have strengths and weaknesses and if they're all playing each other, I'm not surprised by any result with any of those six teams. That could change by January. And look at Chicago's start. This is

really interesting here. So I kind of separated the East with kind of like almost like different categories and groups of teams. So like I said, a while ago. New York Cleveland to me clearly I'm almost feeling like if you don't get there this year one of these two teams never when will you like that's kind of how I am with them

so they're clearly the top two then you've got like the wild card teams I would describe and Philly and Milwaukee would be in that category for me like they've got I'm pro Milwaukee as you know oh yes you are you're pro Milwaukee I don't know where you had them ranked kind of prediction going into the season

of where you thought their seating would be I thought they were a 47 range team. That's about where I had them. And so I've got, and I put Philly in that category with them because they've got veteran guys, like superstar names. If it hits, things could go really well. Like now, then you had the next group of teams, which is the most interesting to me,

Detroit, Orlando, and Atlanta. I think they're all kind of the group together. Like there's real estate to be grabbed in the Eastern Conference. We didn't talk about this. I saw this the exact same way. I had those three way closer together. Put them right there together, right? And I'm going, you know, young talent.

There's real estate available in the Eastern Conference because of what Boston and Indiana are dealing with. It's there for you. Guess what? Chicago, right out of the gate. Three and O, you know who they've beaten? Detroit, Orlando, and Atlanta. So, I mean, look, I don't know what this is going to look like.

They finished the year 15 and 5. Okay. They finished a year 15 and 5 last year, get into the playing. With good net rating and all kinds of offense defense stuff, that was really favorable. And we're just horrific in the play-in game, like offensively, right? And they're going to go home. But still, they kind of took the confidence builder into the summer the way they finished. And here you go.

Out of the gate, you get these three teams that you and I just described as potentially could have been three, four, five in the east if things broke. And they come right out of the gate, bang, bang, bang, they clip all three of them off. I don't know. I don't know what this is going to ultimately mean for Chicago, but what an impressive start to take those three teams that you and I both categorized in the same group and knock them all off.

And I had Detroit third in that group. I was a little more down on Detroit the most. I watched the fourth quarter of the Bulls last night. I would have watched more of it if I'd been home. Bezellis stuff's happening with that. And there was a lot of signs, a lot of breadcrumbs during the summer. He said all the right things.

He did all the right things. and looks like a different player and is actually, like, creating his own stuff. And I actually like their finishing five. I think it's, I don't know, offensively hard to stop. They're going to have submissions on defense. But that was, he might be a leap guy.

Comingo was another one on Golden State that just seems better than he was last year. And Kessler on Utah was another one that jumped out to me. It's like, he just seems better like he went up a level. Before we go, you got to do, and Ryan Rollins is my favorite random dude. I just want to get that on the record. I just want to buy some Ryan Rollins talk.

Before we go, you wanted to, you had a referee trend you wanted to hit. Well, I just want to talk a little bit about what we're seeing here early. And I don't know how it'll all shake out. We'll revisit this periodically as we do this together this year and see how it's changing. I think some of these numbers are incredible to me. First of all, everybody's taking notice. We've had four guys get 50 in the first week of the season. Four, four, and three of which, like I said, very unlikely that they would.

would do that. Free throws play a big part in that, except for Aaron Gordon, who made 10 threes. So it took that kind of shooting performance, or you got to get to the line a ton, and all these guys did it, marking in, Austin Reeves, Shea. But listen to some of these numbers, Bill, like here, a week end of the season. There are 27 teams in the league committing more fouls per night per game than the league leader last year. Really? Yeah. The league leader last year was like whatever was,

like 23 fouls a game. There's 27 teams committing more fouls than that a week into the season. That to me just blew my mind. There's a couple more that just you don't want to overwhelm people with data, but these are just amazing. There are 10 teams right now, 10, averaging 30 plus free throw attempts a game. you know how he did it last year none yeah i was going to say it's like the high last year it was

like 26 27 range denver was like the league leader like the 23 range or something i think it was whatever but there's just 10 teams and then one more right now there are 11 players taking 10 plus free throws oh my god that's like yana's territory one yana santa tecoupo was the only player in the league last year there are 11 guys averaging 10 or more free throws i called a game that had 93 free throws in it. So, and no, here's my point with it, Bill. And this would be the last thing we talk about this. I actually think it's because of the lack of discipline defensively.

I am seeing more guys slap at guys unnecessarily on the drive, going for every head fake in the world, like they're going to block a jump shot. How many guys now are going to that little mid-range step back, up fake, the Shea, the Luka, the Trey Young, and they're, but more guys, are doing it now. Austin Reeves is great at it. Maxi's doing it this year. And guys are just going for it every time they're falling for the bait. Close outs on three-pointers and recklessly fouling guys.

Fowling guys at the rim rather than make it and make a tougher shot over a contested hit. So I actually think most of the whistles I've seen in the two games I've called have been justified. I'm not seeing replays where I go, man, are they calling it tight tonight? No, I'm seeing guys that are careless and reckless and on discipline defensively. and it's leading to these incredible scoring outburst and the types of numbers I'm talking about. Now, obviously, that's not going to stay there. You're not going to have 27 teams

commit more fouls than the league leader last year. It's going to come back. It'll deviate back to the norm a little bit, but that just puts into perspective what we have seen a week into the season. It's been a whistle after whistle after whistle, and most of it, I think, is the fault of the defense. I'm not blaming the officials.

Well, it might tie into what we talked about at the start of our conversation, which there's so much. talent now. People are just harder to guard. It seems like every team has two or three guys that are really hard to stay in front of. The only thing I've noticed from, you know, obviously conspiracy bill, who I don't know if you know that well, but is honored to be here today. The only thing I've noticed, there's a specific call that it feels like everybody is getting now, especially the guards. And Maxi would lead the league in this, but SGA's been

getting it forever. It's this drive where they're parallel with a guy going to their strong hand, or sometimes even their weekend, but stronghand, and shoulder to shoulder where they just go up and they make contact on the shoulder. And I feel like for whatever reason, every single player is getting that call this year. And I've specifically noticed it. So when you said you want to talk about a ref trend, I thought you were talking about that. But it's almost like they said to themselves, SGA gets this call all the time. We've now have to give this to Maxie and Austin Reeves and name every other guard. But I feel like everybody's getting that call. I don't know if that's intentional or not. Well, I agree with that. When you're doing your game tomorrow.

I will. And that calls prevalent. I know exactly the player you're talking about. It's mostly going going to your right hand. Flames shot. And it's a little bit of a bump with your shoulder into their chest. And then you kind of almost veer off like sideways and just throw it up and you get the whistle. You hope to get the bank for the three point play. But usually you don't because you have to whip it. It's just, it's an epidemic. Well, you know the one thing that they told us was going to be the point of emphasis this year was they're really going to watch the high five. I contest because they felt like guys are getting out of control with it

and taking advantage too much and there's too much contact on the handle or there was a swipe down and a follow through hitting guys on the forum. They want to protect the shooters to a higher degree. Ironically, in the two games I've called, I've only seen that even come up a couple of times.

So that's not even really played into these calls. Most of them are on reach-ins and grabs and slaps when you're out of position and guys are driving down the lane about to gather to go up to shoot. And you're seeing that help defender reach in and they're not in position to make the play and they're carelessly reaching in

and hitting guys on the arm. That's been to me the majority of the whistles I've seen, particularly on the scorers. So let's see what happens going forward. I'll certainly be watching for all this stuff in my game Wednesday night. Well, now that you're a semi-regular on this podcast and the ringer,

you get 45 seconds to complain about your NFL team. So I'm just going to offer you. I'm just going to give you, your favorite team is the Washington Commanders. Yeah. And your season's already over. So go ahead. Take the floor. It's just, it's so painful because, first of all, I wasn't emotionally ready for the leap they made

last year. I usually got to build up to that over a few years. And I just wasn't ready. Next thing you know, here I am. I'm sitting in my man cave at my house, watching them in the NFC championship going, I can't believe that this is happening right now. And of course, we get annihilated in that game. But regardless, you're

thinking, okay, you know, we drafted the right guy. Jane Daniels is the one. And I, you know, I love the moves. Adam Peters, Dan Quinn, Kingsbury. I'm all in and all of it. And it's just gone all completely off the rails, man. Our season between injuries and just not making plays at key times in the game that need to be made.

This is where we're at, man, three and five with Seattle, Detroit. We're staring at three and seven with all these injuries. And the McClorin hold out, I think, completely derailed his season. he immediately got hurt you think that's a coincidence the guy doesn't have really training camp and all of a sudden he signs right before the first game and he has barely played this year and that really really affected everything um jane's been hurt twice it's just this long conference study by the way studying NBA and NFL contract holdouts that happened to trey murphy last year he he was waiting for an extension and then came back and was basically hurt for the first half of the year but

I always feel like there's always a stink from not being out there and not being part of the training camp process, it seems to happen. I caught like 16 touchdowns last year, including the playoffs, and he caught his first one last night against the Chiefs. And I was at the game. Went to Arrowhead for the first time, by the way. What an awesome experience just because it's just old school football town and that stadium.

And it's just a really, really cool vibe, even though, you know, we obviously didn't play very well. And I say we a lot, by the way. Do you say we when you talk about the teams you love? I sure do. I sure do. unapologetically, can't help. Yeah, I'm the same way.

I am that emotionally invested in that team. So I'm kind of, yeah, I'm dejected and down. There's nothing worse than when the team that you love the most, whether whatever sport, you kind of feel like it's just they're not going to be in it this year. And I'm only at the halfway point of the season. That just sucks because it just changes your anticipation when you open your eyes on Sunday morning. It's just different. You had a lot of like fourth down luck.

last year, you had a lot of things go your way, you had some injury luck, and then they had an older team that I was suspect. I went under on them this year because I thought it was the year after the big year. Schedule's harder. You have all these old players. It's always hard to rely on those guys to stay healthy. But what's interesting is, it's really hard to find seven NFC playoff teams, even if you're seventh as San Francisco, who just lost their two best defensive players, right? And they might be able to hang around and try to get to a nine and eight.

You know, maybe nine and eight is a seven seed. So even if it looks bleak, they can go three and seven, but you still, if you can get to nine wins, I think you get to the dance with a good quarterback. That would be the only thing, nice thing I would say. If they get to three and seven

and they've got to play the Eagles two out of the last three games of the year, I don't know, man, how we're getting the nine wins. Maybe the Eagles don't care about the last game. No, that's possible. That's You're always kind of hoping that's the case. But I don't know. I have a feeling in the NFC this year, I think they're going to have to play through the wire

to get home field advantage, whoever it may be. So I think these guys are good. No one's really separated. So I think they're going to have to play all the way through the wire, which is not great to play them two out of the last three games of the year. So do you, now I have to ask you another question.

Do you follow the NFL the same way you follow the NBA where you're like deep into the data and you're studying shit? Or do you just follow it like a fan and don't think about that stuff? I follow it. in terms of, I kind of feel like I know, like, the whole league. But, no, like, in terms of, like, metrics and trends and, like, all that, not as much. And even in the NBA, and I think you'll see this when you, when you see me call a game, and, you know, you've known me a long time.

I definitely feel like I try to just really pick those numbers sometimes that are really good for the context of this conversation and not just kind of keep spitting him out because I think people tune you out. So I kind of very selective when I'll throw those kind of numbers out. there when I think it really pounds home a point that matters. The NFL, no, I just, I absolutely love watching professional football. Like, I'm just addicted to watching the NFL. I love it so much.

Even when my team is struggling are not good, all those years from 91 when we won our last Super Bowl to being good again with a 30-year drought, I watched every snap of every game, even at the end of like a four-and-12 season. I was still watching every play of the last game of the year because I just love football that much. So that's, that's me. Well, I like how you do it with the NBA, because I think you have the right instinct for it. Have the data, but it can't be too much of the act, right? You got to pick the accessibility of the numbers. Because I think, you know, we saw it happen in baseball and they really struggled with it. In basketball, it's a little bit of a seesaw, but with the advanced

metrics, I think people tune it out if it gets too confusing. But there is some really important shit right that like Orlando's three point shooting all those numbers last year that that was really meaningful like they had to fix that so um you know there is some really good stuff before we go i got one in the NFL i would i want to get some research to this maybe there maybe it's already out there they didn't look uh commanders had a holding penalty on first down on a drive last night which started them at first and 20 and i turned to my buddy who came to the game with me and i said i really want to know what's the punt rate on possessions that start with a holding penalty. I want to know. I want to know what the punt rate is of those possessions because it's

incredible because there's nothing more punitive. You feel like the series is over. There's nothing more punitive than a first downholding penalty. It's seriously, it's like 10 yards. It's just, you know, so it happened last night and I was just wondering out my head. I don't know what the data says out there as opposed to like normal possessions where you don't get that, but I guarantee it significantly higher because we had it last night. And of course, we punted in three plays, three plays later. I'm sure. I'm sure somebody has that. I had it last year at the Patriots where they held on, I think, 50% of the first downs they had last year. It felt like that anyway. Tim Legler, a true pleasure. I'm glad we're going to do this all season. Good luck

tomorrow night calling a game with not as many stars as maybe they thought five weeks ago. But it's great to see you. Thanks for doing this. Thanks, Bill. Appreciate it. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Tim Legler. Thanks to get out and Eduardo as well. Don't forget, new rewatchables. 2. It's up. You can go check it out. I'm going to be back on this feed on Thursday with some football and some basketball and maybe even a little baseball. Let's see what happens in this World Series. We'll see how it goes. See on Thursday. in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in in president, D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming.

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