The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Smashmouth Pats, NBA Chatter, and ‘Succession’ Predictions With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: December 7, 2021

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Patriots' narrow victory over the Bills in Buffalo on 'Monday Night Football' as well as the AFC playoff picture (1:53). Then they talk about Scottie Pippen's recent criticism of Michael Jordan, Kevin Durant and the Nets, the Lakers' continued struggles, the complete Bulls, and more (23:22). Finally, Ryen and Bill discuss the most recent episode of HBO's 'Succession' [SPOILERS] (1:11:21). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, I've popped on a bunch of Ringer podcasts recently. Just want to give you a heads up. Went on Larry Wilmore's show, went on Dave Chang's show for his 250th anniversary, went on SportsCard's Nonsense last Thursday, went on Real Ones with Logan and Raja on Monday to talk about Suns, Warriors, and a whole bunch of other stuff.

You can check out all of those podcasts on the Ringer Podcast Network. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gangs here, you're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer.

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FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good.

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to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com. We're also brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook, where I will have another same game parlay for you, NBA related on Wednesday. Go to the FanDuel Sportsbook app and you can find that one on there. Not sure what the game is yet, but it will be there on Wednesdays. Go check it out. We boost them up for you and you'll get better odds. The Rewatchables. Me and Jimmy Kimmel

did Saturday Night Fever. It went up Monday night and you can check that out. It's certainly a film that changed pop culture. It changed the way movies were made. It ties into the Music Box documentary that we did about Robert Stigwood called Mr. Saturday Night that premieres Thursday night, 8 p.m. It's the fifth film of our Music Box series. It is directed by the great John Maggio and really enjoyed not only doing the Rewatchables pod with Jimmy about a movie that really felt like one of the most five famous movies of my childhood, but also how it ties into the film we did. So check out the Rewatchables, check out the Music Box, 8 p.m. Thursday night.

If you missed the first four, you can check out all of them on HBO Max as well. Coming up, Ryan, Marcella, and I, we're going to talk a little Pat's Bills, a little NBA and a little succession. First, our're taping this. It is 8.30 Tuesday morning Pacific time. Ryan Rosillo is here. We haven't gotten together in a while. There's a lot going on. We'll start with Pat's Bills. Old school game.

Mack Jones, three passes. Pat's win. I've always made this point about Belichick, and I'm going to make it again. I think he cares about the history way more than a lot of people realize. And I think he looks at opportunities like yesterday as like, well, what's the difference between if we do four more play actions? What if we just run the ball down their throats the whole game? We prove our toughness and pass as little as we possibly can. And there will be something memorable about this game,

not just historically, but for our team, that we went into Buffalo, we didn't even have to throw. We just ran it down their throats. We proved we were tougher. We dealt with the elements and we won. I do feel like he cares about that stuff. I've been with this guy for 21 years at this point. I do think he thinks that way with this stuff.

Is that crazy to you? No, not at all. I think you're right on point with him and appreciating the history. And I think for all the times where access or just him opening up to anybody was such a challenge. Yet then he totally turns it on once you're talking about access for him historically, like the stuff that he was doing with NFL Network was to kind of, I don't even think it was like a selfish thing. I think it was allowing us to realize who he is and then also being part of history because that should be documented. You know, I'm not comparing him to George Washington, but George Washington knew to keep his papers around.

Like he was constantly boxing up all of his correspondence with everybody because he had this idea, this vision that he was at the forefront of being one of the, maybe the man who would navigate the beginning of this country. And it's, it's really weird whenever you read anything about Washington. Again, I'm not saying Belichick is George Washington, but I think Belichick, not only his appreciation of history, I think a big part of him opening up and doing some of these really cool projects has been because he's like, you know, I should let people get a chance to lean in here and see what this is all about because this is an unprecedented run so specific to last night yeah i think it all plays in and i think it's also a galvanizing thing i think it's the kind of thing where matt chatham had a tweet

you know he used to play for the pats it was a great tweet he goes this is the kind of plane ride home where the beers start flying and it's this galvanizing thing we're like we just went in there and ran it down your fucking throats for three hours. David Andrews, the center, had a quote in the press game conference that was like that too. He was like, that was the most memorable game of my career. Like, if you're an offensive lineman on that team, you're just so giddy. Yeah, with the Belichick thing, this goes back to last decade.

This goes back to the 2000s. Like, he let David Halberstam follow him around for a season. He let Michael Hawley write two behind-the-scenes books. I think in 2009 or 2010, he let NFL Films follow him around for a documentary. And then there was a second one in 2015, The Do Your Job. Even with the NFL 100 or whatever, he threw himself into that. He was like a panelist. So I do think he cares about the history stuff. I think people judge him by the boring press conferences, but that's been the point for two decades.

He doesn't want to say anything in a press conference that could incite the other team, offend them. You know, I've watched, I don't know if you've seen Man in the Arena yet, which I've actually enjoyed. I thought the first two parts were really good. Third part was all right. But Belichick, I forgot some of this stuff

because there's been so many games at this point. Belichick before the Eagles Super Bowl. Patriots are favored. And there's, I think, audio of him just reading the team the Super Bowl parade because it leaked out that the Eagles had played in their Super Bowl parade. And he's just monotone reading it to them.

Oh, then we're going to take a right and we're going to go down Holly Street. And he's just reading it for five minutes trying to motivate them. So anyway, I think he cares about all this stuff. I think he saw last night as an opportunity to prove to the team how tough they were, that they were the toughest team in the AFC

and that's what they did. Yeah, I haven't catched any of the Brady stuff. I've realized this in the last five-plus years that one of my least favorite versions of content is athlete-produced content about themselves. I'm the same way. It's brutal most times. So even if it's somebody that I'll want,

obviously I've rooted for Brady. I've rooted for Brady more than I root for the Patriots at this stage of my life. And yet, I don't know. i've sat through too many documentaries i've watched too many basketball features on too many different guys and i go you guys just were like hey it's our turn to do a doc so i haven't gotten to it yet i would push back only a little on that the way you phrased the belichick part where it's all strategic i think what's frustrating about the times when he opens up and how great it is as how petty and i think he puts more energy into being petty at times, which, again, doesn't matter.

It's not part of the evaluation here. It has nothing to do with him being the greatest coach ever and continually reinventing this team all the time, even with Brady and now without. He deserves all the credit. But, yeah, I mean, as somebody who's consumed it from the media side of it, which no fans will ever care about. And I totally understand i just feel like there's times where the energy is like wait are you going out of your way to be petty about this because this seems fucking stupid too this seems to be as big of a waste of energy as it would be for the other stuff which i think is again you see this one version that it's insignificant it doesn't matter and then you see the great version when he's excited to be

a part of something where you're like you couldn't have done any of that you couldn't have ever been that guy and still just beat everybody. But again, it's always the thing with Belichick. It's kind of like LeBron in a way where there's little nitpicky things that I could point at when you're in the public eye for 20 plus years. But at the end of the day, how would I start talking about LeBron? I'd talk about him as one of the two greatest players I've ever seen and a guy who's guaranteed to bring your team to victory.

And that's the same thing I would do with Belichick. So a lot of the little stuff doesn't really ever matter. The slights are a big thing with him. And a lot of the great people we've had in sports, the slights and taking some perceived slight or a real slight and drawing some sort of crazy competitive energy from it seems to be the recurring theme over and over again. All right. Just how much fun did you have though? How much fun did you have? How bad, how mad were you at the second pass attempt? Like it must've been, I remember what it was like when I really cared. No, I wanted them to throw more. I just wanted them to win the game. Oh, really? Okay. We were just like the play action at some point, Buffalo had 10 guys in the box, right? And Ramondre had the greatest 78 yards I think I've ever seen in my life.

Every yard was against 10 guys. I just never seen anything like it. And at some point you just think, oh, especially if you're on the left hash mark or the right hash mark and you have Hunter Henry on the side and he's got basically one-on-one with two thirds of the field on a play action

that just seems like the easiest 10 yard pass ever. But they just weren't messing around. They didn't want to turn the ball over. That's what made it so crazy. The Nikhil Harry thing. That A, I've never seen him back on a punt return. And then B, why is he going near the ball? And then C, it's somehow it's his helmet.

And that was their only fuck up. They clearly wanted to go through the game. No turnovers. Let's get out of here. We're tougher than these guys. I knew going into the game, they were tougher. The question to me was Mac, bad conditions Monday night. And Belichick was just like, I'm removing that.

I'm removing that concern for you. Our rookie quarterback will not be involved today. He's going to hand off and that's it. Yeah, the Nikhil thing was tough. And I know people are like, well, why does he have him back there? I am not a fan of trying to find a way to blame somebody other than whose fault it is. I mean, Nikhil, get away from the ball and you're a professional receiver and, you know, it's not like it hasn't been bad enough. And Nikhil kicked the shit out of

everybody blocking last night, what he was doing on sealing that edge. So that was more important, except that that led to seven points. And seriously, the other field goal on the Josh Allen flag. I mean, these flags are so ridiculous at the out of bounds thing I think is worse than the QB hits or even the taunting because it's strictly to related like which side did you get pushed out on? Oh, you got picked. You got pushed out on your home side and I got 17 strength and conditioning guys and khakis and Pegasus freaking out asking for a flag and then human nature is that ref always freaks out then throws the flag that wasn't even close alan was inbounds reaching and gets pushed out as a defensive play so now you're thinking wait did the bills get 10

points out of this on a bad penalty again they still had to make more plays and make the kick in those conditions but the nikhil seven you're thinking this is a gift and what's been otherwise perfect but i'll ask you this about alan. Because remember the playoff game? Two years ago. Two years ago where Allen scrambled around forever and it was like, what are you doing? It was against Houston, wasn't it? I'm going to say it was Houston Buffalo. I think it was.

They lost that one. Yeah, I think it was. Keep talking and I'll find it. Okay. It was just one of those plays where you're kind of like, you know, Wentz has a little of it in him, has had it in him. You know, Burrow, who I love, has a little of it in him, too, where you're kind of like, you got to figure out when to get rid of the ball here or when to kind of give up on this play, even though physically you're capable of doing some really special things. And Allen is more physically gifted than either of those guys and alan on the third down play i'm thinking all right and this is when they turn it over on downs

basically the end of the game i'm like he's got to think two downs he's got to think throwing underneath the soft area here and then he's going to be about the 12 looking at a quick throw into the end zone because i thought once mcdermott let him throw it a little bit more it was kind of scary for pats fans being like maybe they should have done this a little bit more because Allen's arm in those conditions didn't yeah the conditions didn't matter it was it was kind of scary and then also on top of it should you've done this a little bit more and instead Allen almost gets sacked twice he still makes a sick throw to Dawson Knox that's broken up in the end zone but that was the third down throw where it's like okay well now you have to make a 20-yard-plus throw in these conditions

because you didn't take the free yardage knowing it was a two-down situation anyway. And I think there's still a part of Allen that he's got to evolve past that. I thought Buffalo's game plan was atrocious. They have terrible running backs. And they were like, oh, yeah, we'll play some some power football too. And the Patriots were like, great, bring it on. If they had spread the field with their receivers and their tight ends and used Allen as the runner, I think they would have beaten us. I really do.

If Allen, if I'm a Buffalo fan, I'm, I'm waking up today and I'm like, how does Allen not have like 21 runs in that game? How, how is it not just spread the field? He's either quick passing to the outside or wherever like the wind's not going, or he's just taking off and putting his shoulder down and trying to get three, four yards. He's a better runner than anyone they have. And I just thought that was a bizarre game plan.

Conversely, the Pats, when they had that incredible drive that went all the way to the end of, I think it was the end of the third quarter where it was like 15 plays. It was just Romandre over and over again. And at some point, the play action was sitting there and at this point, they were just too committed to it. But it was a very strangely coached game. The Nikhil Harry thing was probably the weirdest part.

I wouldn't have had anyone back on the punts. But in general, the Pats are in the all-time driver's seat in the conference now because their conference record is so far better than anyone else that even if they're in a tie with whoever, they're still going to get a one seed. They have four conference games left. They're nine and four. They're seven and one in the conference. Everybody else has three wins or more. The Chiefs have four conference losses. Baltimore has four conference losses. Buffalo has five conference losses. Tennessee has three conference losses. So the Pats Bay, I think they could go two and two and somehow still maybe get a one seed if the other teams don't do well. But if they go three

and one, they're getting the one seed. And they have Buffalo back in New England in the next couple weeks. And one of the things I like about this team is I think they can win any kind of way. They can win power football. But I also think if they had to throw, I think they could do that too. I think it's a really good team. They're really good. And to watch them line up, I almost felt...

I know a couple, it was Poyer and Hyde, the guys from Buffalo that were asked straight up and the way they were asked like hey are you embarrassed that they just lined it up and you guys couldn't figure it out and they're kind of like hey we gave up 14 fucking points all right yeah and i at that point i didn't love the way the question was and then i wasn't sure if they were kind of just mad which happens i mean you sit out there in physical combat for three plus hours and have somebody ask you a question if you're humiliated personally probably isn't the greatest time uh but i mean they did only

give up 14 points in this thing so mcdermott was was spicy after as well he was uh i'll only i'll only you really think the pats could win a shootout you think they could win a shootout in the playoffs i don't know if that like a shootout like a 38 35 but i think they could win a shootout in the playoffs? I don't know if that like a shootout, like a 38, 35, but I think they could win like a 30, 27, 31, 27 type of game.

The thing about the AFC though, is there's no team that's going to have that game with them. Really. The only one is the chargers and the chargers. They could put up 40 points on it. Cause the charges defense isn't good, but you go down the line, like Casey is totally evolved into this kind of defense ball control team, which was

what was so weird about Sunday night with Denver, where Denver was in that mode like they were playing the Chiefs two years ago, where it's like, ah, we got to get touchdowns, got to get touchdowns. Not really. Just get some points. The Chiefs are going to be around 20 to 24 points. You need to get points, keep the ball. With them, Tennessee, I think Indianapolis is another ball control team. The Ravens, I don't even think

will be there in the end, so it won't matter. And the Bills, I don't know if there's the shootout team. I think the NFC is the shootout teams. The Bucks, you might have to really score some points to compete with if they have all their guys back. The Bucks could be a 38-35 type playoff game back right that the bucks could be like a 38 35 type playoff game at some point well it could be any of those teams i think arizona can put up a

ton of points yeah and they constantly feel like they're overlooked and and the numbers that you have with green bay when you take out the jordan love start right those are still some of the best passing offensive numbers that you're seeing in the season uh this season in the league i'm with you on kind of the Tennessee thing. Like Tennessee sitting here, it's a two seat bill and I'm going, all right, not,

you know, I mean, they're just a completely different team with all the injuries and they're a different team without Henry who they're not getting back as opposed to the receivers, Baltimore. It's been a really bad month. And then you factor in all the injuries kind of catching up to them.

Lamar kind of getting into this rut. I'm not going as far as to say they lost Humphrey. They lost their corner. They didn't have a Humphrey. They lost their corner too. They didn't have a good secondary anywhere. They lost their... Really, they're the only guy that battered. So I think they're a cross-off for me. Baltimore. I'm not really... I don't

know if I'd go that far with it, but it feels like between Kansas City, the Chargers, and Cincinnati, I like the three teams behind the 2-3 seed better than I like the two and three seed at this point. And it's because they banked some of those early wins. Baltimore's at Cleveland, home

Green Bay, at Cincy, home Rams, home Pittsburgh. That's going to be really tough. That could be two and three for them. I think Cincy, Cincy's San Francisco at Denver, home Baltimore, home KC at Cleveland. And they're only a game back. I don't know. I think they could potentially jump them.

The other thing, though... Finish the Tennessee thing and I have a quick piece. Just quickly, if Henry comes back in week 17 and that's like a four seed, that's kind of a nightmare. Because I think Tennessee might be the... It's either the second or third best team with Henry

if they get the receivers back. That's kind of the team I would be afraid of. That was why I was hoping the Pats wouldn't get the five seed because there was a possibility that you get the five seed, you're going to Tennessee in round one, Henry's back, A.J. Brown's back, and that's a really hard team to play they're not going to make mistakes

they've matched up well with the Pats in the past Rappaport said yesterday I guess that there's still a sense that Henry returns in December but we'll see I'm not ready to just say the Chiefs are this team that is going to try to ball control you to death I'm just not

well that's what they're trying to do it's fine but I'm just not of the belief that the Chiefs are never going to look to ball control you to death. I'm just not. I'm just not. Well, that's what they're trying to do. It's fine, but I'm just not of the belief that the Chiefs are never going to look like the Chiefs again this year at some point. I thought, I watched Orlovsky on First Take yesterday. I thought he made a good point. Like, every week they drop these big passes, right? The Chiefs.

There's between two and seven drops a game where you're like, ugh. You know, and sometimes they go off their heads in their interceptions. And he's like, like, ah, you know, and sometimes they go off their hands and their interceptions. And he's like, at some point you are who you are. And if you're just dropping passes every week, maybe that's the offense you have.

It's not like, oh, if we can only get rid of those drops, it's like, maybe that's your team. Maybe you're trying to be this ball control team, but over and over again, you have Pringle over the middle dropping something.

You have McCall Hardman on a wide receiver screen. He's dropping it. Hill has had the yips all year. Maybe that's your team. I don't know. It's just hard for me to write off a group that we've seen look as impressive as any offense we've ever seen in the game. So now, because

a matchup with Denver, where it's another game with Mahomes and no touchdowns and a pick, do you really think you get through a version of this NFL without one major shootout? And as much as this Mac Jones story is incredible, it's great. You might have something here for a really long time. His poise, his footwork, a lot of the stuff that's harder to figure out until he's actually doing it on Sunday. Is this team equipped with the guys on the outside

as great as Bourne has been, the way the offensive line has worked, are they equipped to win that kind of shootout? And I still think it's a completely fair question and I think it's a major assumption to be like, oh yeah, they'll be fine with that. I agree with you. KC's the team I'm afraid of.

Been watching them pretty carefully the last few weeks. They definitely could rush the passer. I think they have a lot of confidence. Their defense has turned it on here. Yeah, I think they have a lot of confidence. I think Clyde Edwards is hilarious. Since he came back, it's the best I've ever seen him look. And I'm scared of my homes.

And I'm always going to be completely terrified of him in a playoff game. Like I'm never going to feel great about going against him. So that would be the team. Quickly on the documersials thing that you were talking about, about athlete content. Um, I'm with you. And that was why I didn't want to watch the Brady thing. And then I was told by a bunch of people like, Hey, if you're a Pats fan, like there's just a lot of good video. There's a lot of good behind the scenes stuff. I actually did learn a lot of stuff. One of the things that it's very, very,

very positive about Belichick. And one of the things is about the early years of Brady, how on Tuesdays, him and Belichick would watch tape and they would watch the other team's defense that they're about to play. And it would be like, he'd basically be like, you know, Belichick was my professor. He just taught me about the defenses I had to watch. And he was like, you know, Belichick was my professor. He just taught me about the defenses I had to watch. And he was like, you know, those Tuesday sessions with him early in my career were like the most valuable thing that happened to me in my career. I had this guy who knew everything about everything, just walking me through what a defense was doing and teaching me this mindset of how to think, how to attack, how to be prepared every week. And it's, I think there's this Brady-Belichick reconciliation thing.

I don't even think they've had a fallout, but I think over the next few years, it's going to be very favorable on both ends because I think now that the both guys are removed from it, I think they both appreciate the experience. You had this amazing thing where you're one of the great coaches of all time,

probably the greatest, and one of the great football players of all time, and they just happen to spend two decades together. And I think as the years pass, I think they'll both lean into that versus lean away from it versus like how Scottie Pippen has handled the Jordan thing. The opposite of the Pippen-Jordan approach is what you're telling me. Yes. Yeah, we weren't friends jordan was that good like yeah i don't think they're going that way i think it's going to go left you're like wait what no one figured that out scotty ever at any point uh i'm sure whatever brady like i think we both

agree that brady towards the end is like wait you're we're really doing this like i'm really out of here are you fucking kidding me because if you think of all the little things that happen along the way and then the information that you and i are able to pick up post that you know um brady went out of his way to basically have robert craft distanced from the decision because they felt like craft would be like can you do me a solid here so everybody in town doesn't hate me and say that i had nothing to do with this and that's basically what brady did for him when brady went back to the negotiating table the story goes that they were like we already we've already made you an offer he's like what are you talking about and they were like yeah the offer from last year for one year left like that's it that's how you're gonna handle this with me and so i'm sure brady

he's always been pretty good. He's never been one to tell anybody to fuck off. Whatever his brand is, it's combative in a way that's almost hard to ever tell how combative he is because he doesn't really call anybody out. So I don't know that he was ever going to call Bill out. But I'm sure winning a Super Bowl the first year you leave has probably mellowed any of that angst. I mean, talk about the ultimate walk- that angst, has topped everything else. I mean, talk about the ultimate walk-off to go, all right, fine.

Like, you want to go in another direction? Cool. You guys got Cam Newton. I just won a Super Bowl. So maybe it's easier to be nicer about it now. Well, and same thing for Belichick. If he hadn't been able to rebuild this as a contender, maybe he's a little snarkier about the whole thing.

But since he was able to rebuild the team, now they're both in a good place and they can look at it a little snarkier about the whole thing. But since he was able to rebuild the team, now they're both in a good place and they can look at it a little more objectively. I want to talk about the Pippen thing, but let's take a break. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey.

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Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. I followed this Pippen stuff. I think it's so bizarre that NBA players, ex-NBA players, are turning into like

the old professional wrestlers where it's like we have an interview with the Ultimate Warrior and he just starts taking shots at Hulk Hogan. You're like, what's going on? Is this real? Is this fake?

What's happening? This is happening all the time now with guys who used to play in the league where I don't know whether it's a way for them to get attention again, or if they think maybe it's this podcast world we're in now where everybody's getting interviewed left and right. I don't understand it, but there seems like there's more animosity between the old guys. For years, it was always the guys who were currently playing getting bummed out that the X generation was crispy at them. Why aren't you guys more supportive of us? We're carrying the torch for you. Now it's just the X guys going at each other. And I don't understand it, but why

has basketball turned into professional wrestling with retired players? Whenever you use a wrestling analogy, I'm ready to cringe. But this is perfect. It really is. Because it's just. But this has been going on for years, okay? Whether it was Oscar Robertson who came on with us and Mike and Mike when I filled in. And we asked him how Steph would have been handled in his era.

And he was just like, pick him up full court idiots you know and you're just like that's it that's it big oh yes just pick him up full court and you know and then he would be like you guys are idiots like you don't remember tom tom lewis but tom lewis could shoot too and you were like no what who and i'm making up name, but that's what he did. He was kind of like, you guys are fawning over Steph Curry. You don't remember Tommy Lewis. And I was like, I don't, I don't. And then I looked up and again, that's not who's the name was.

It's I already had forgotten. I looked the guy up and like he had a couple of decent seasons and it's not just that it's the TNT crew, which we all love the show. We all love Charles. I think Shaq's evolved into something really cool and they dump on the, like the like that's their that's their shtick is they dump on it and you know during the the peak steph stuff and then everybody just saying oh whatever this wouldn't work back in the day back in the day it was just a very weird deal that you had a full generation of 90s players that all had outlets you know mcgrady's on tv the jump had a bunch of these

guys on it um you know countdown rotated a bunch of different players they're all of the same generation that decided the guys playing the last five years all sucked and it was the only form of of human testing where somehow we were led to believe the science was going in reverse in basketball but going going forward with everything else. Guys are throwing faster. They're running faster. All these other elements of just pushing the limits more and more. It's like, no, no, basketball is actually, we peaked in 97, and now we're on the other side of it.

So it's been happening for a while. I do think that Pippen takes it to another level in that he just feels so slighted by the whole thing. When I felt like the last dance bill, we did that stuff. I feel like history looks back on Pippen and almost props him up a little bit more where I felt like in the moment. And I did this rant, I think a month or so ago, Pippen was never talked about like, Hey, is Pippen the single best player in the league right now? We never did that during the time. And in fact, it was about, does he belong

on the top level with some of the other guys or not was the argument it was never is he the best guy it was is he one of the best guys was a real conversation yeah but it was never left where there was a single season where you went pippen's the best player and i think that that's how it's been kind of remembered at least that's what i thought the last answer a little bit there it's it's very clear hanging Jordan with that much. Like it would just, it hazes the shit out of you mentally. And Pippen is the one guy that, I don't know, just doesn't want to hear it anymore. But when you start saying like you're better than him, he told, we had a guy in production at ESPN who tweeted it out.

He goes, I worked on an NBA rap show. And in the pre-show meeting where we were going over topics, Pippen said to me, you know, I was better than Jordan. Right. This is what we're dealing with. I don't. So I think there's a couple things going on. I think Jordan made a lot of money from The Last Dance. Pippen probably didn't make any money, right?

Gives this big interview. He thinks it's about the 98 season. There's basically a whole half of an episode about why he didn't come back into the game. He's a bigger part of the documentary than he thought. He gives this interview. Oh, and they dump on him too for his contract, which might just suck to watch years later. Go ahead. Yeah. And I think he was sensitive about that stuff. It's not the similar from why Chris Webber ultimately didn't want to be in the Fab Five documentary. He didn't want to talk

about the timeout again. You know that you get to come up with a hundred reasons and him versus Jalen, all that stuff. But it was really like, he didn't want to relive that stuff. I got bummed out by this one though, because as somebody who really loves this stuff, like watching Pippen and Jordan in person, and we talked about it when we did some of the, what do we call those? What do we call those pods? Rewatchables. Watching Jordan and Pippen in person after Jordan came back from baseball was like one of the great basketball joys of my life.

I'd never seen two guys united like that. And I got to watch Bird and McHale and Parrish for their entire run. The Jordan-Pippen thing was different. They were so tuned together. It reminded me a little of the Beatles. And Chuck and I talked about this a tiny bit last Thursday, watching the incredible Beatles doc and how McCartney and Lennon, like,

if anything jumps out of that doc for eight hours, it's like, wow, these guys had something like really special, you know? And there's no way that these guys stopped being a band because they didn't like playing music with each other. Cause you could see it. I felt that way watching Pippen and Jordan those last couple of years. I just felt like Jordan had built Pippen, hoops IQ, osmosis, competitiveness, all this stuff. He kind of created this perfect sidekick for himself. And when you would watch them together, they would have these moments where you honestly felt like if they needed a steal, those two guys would just cross midcourt and go, let's just go get the ball. And they would just take the ball from whoever the point guard was. Or nobody's getting a layup on us for this entire quarter. Nobody would.

And it's just kind of a bummer that he feels so shitty about it now. I'm bummed out for him. He definitely didn't make as much money as he probably should have. He feels like he didn't get the historical kind of love that maybe he thinks he deserves, and he's just way more bitter than somebody should be who won six titles and who Steve Kerr said was the best teammate he ever had. I think the people that played with him really loved him,

so I feel bad for him. Well, if he was doing it to get attention for the book, then maybe we can't feel bad for him. I think historically he's held up really well and people look back on him far more fondly. But the Jordan thing, I mean, it's just, it's one of those things where it's like an eye roll at the dinner table where you just go,

I don't even like, what the hell am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do with this one? I mean, even people in Chicago, you know, who, who love this guy,

who he brought them some of the greatest joys of their lives. I'm kind of like, what? And it's such a great city too. Like that'd be the thing I'd be worried about is where if I'm still such a big deal in a city, like he should be in Chicago. Like,

do I really want to start going around taking shots at the single most important athlete in that city's amazing history? I don't know if that's the best move. Not great. But this goes back to the wrestling thing. He just seems like the bitter old wrestler who never got a chance to win the WWF title

because Hogan kept being in his way. Now he's just lobbing shots at him. The whole partnership thing with basketball, which I remember back when my fingers worked writing about a few times, you saw it with Shaq and Kobe where that hit the point where they just, they just absolutely hated each other. And one of them had to leave. Um, you saw it with LeBron and Wade, which I think initially started as an equal partnership. And then Wade's body started to break down a little and LeBron just descended and was

just clearly not only the best part of the team, but in the league. And they had to figure out that recalibration. Then LeBron eventually ditches him and goes to Cleveland. Now we're seeing it with a couple different teams. The Durant Harden, I think is the most interesting partnership right now because durant i think is playing the best i don't have you ever seen durant play better i just think he's so nuts i mean you had a tweet the other day that i just disagreed with where you were like hey janice the best player in the world whatever and i just go i don't know i i've not i'm not even after the title i'm not going to let myself say somebody's better at basketball

than kevin durant is right now because i still clear out, you've got to get it done. That's what this game really is about. Like, what do you do when nothing else works? There's no way I'm taking anyone. And as much as I love Giannis is. Are you talking one side of the court though? Yeah. But it's not like Durant's defense isn't good. Durant's defense, like he's, he's the one holding this thing together. Harden's gotten better since the disastrous start of this whole thing, but it's just, it's very weird how bad NBA players are at, I don't know, in this case for Durant, maximizing peak years for who you hit your wagon to.

I mean, we thought Kyrie was the one that didn't make any sense. And Harden, who, it depends on what part of the argument you want to believe that oh he's just slow from this hamstring I mean this has had to have been one of the most severe hamstring injuries in the history of hamstrings because let's face it I mean Harden's just a disinterested guy since Kevin Johnson yeah since Kevin Johnson had a four-year hamstring injury even if things have gotten better for Harden and there's some stats that will tell you that they are there's just a lack of of giving a shit from him which is only going to get worse i would imagine as he gets older and then you've got a bunch of other injuries i mean harris has missed time and they're kind of piecing this whole

thing together but you'd have durant go into a situation where it's like okay i want to play with these guys and again the kairi thing was teaming up a little bit more and it also speaks to what's going on with the lakers right now. We're going to talk Lakers at some point. I think the best thing is to have an open mind and be fair considering all the different stuff they try to put together. But think about it. I mean, LeBron met with Russell Westbrook and was like, yeah, let's do this.

I know. It's like, do you not have league pass? Like, what are you? So back to the Durant thing. Yeah. So as you know, my fingers don't work anymore. About a month ago, if I was still writing columns, that would have been the column I would have written. The exact point you just said was December 7th. I would have probably second week of November. Just Durant, like his

own worst enemy for his career, right? First of all, he was in a great situation with Golden State that I get all the reasons that it burned out there, right? He at some point realized that was Steph City. We've talked about this a million times. He wanted his own thing. He wanted to be the centerpiece of it. He wanted to put it together. I get it. But man, he's in his prime. I think offensively, this is the best I've ever seen him look. And that dates back to last playoffs. And he hitched his wagon, Kyrie, who there were red flags galore and he ignored all of them. And then Harden, who just seems like one of those guys that as he hits his early mid thirties, is he going to care off the court to the point where now you can't do it with young legs and

just energy and all that stuff. When you hit your early mid thirties in basketball, now it's like a work ethic thing. Now it is a conditioning thing. Now it is a, I have to keep adding because my body's starting to deteriorate a little bit. You got to get thinner too. I mean, that's how Duncan had that second run or third run. Duncan got thinner and you were like, man, I thought this guy might've been done five or six years ago. And he salvaged it and was still amazing because he goes, I got to get smaller. Or Nash. Nash is another one. Nash was able to basically go until 2010 when he had a fucked up back because of all the other stuff he was doing. Um, Kobe's another one. Kobe from 08

to 2012, which is not where he basically should have peaked as an all around basketball player, but he did. You think like athletically, he peaked early 2000s. And if you look at early 2003, it's like ridiculous. He was never the same athletically after that, but he kept adding and he added all the weight. And I feel the flip side about Davis. And I've talked about this on the pod where it's like Davisis decided he just wants to be this giant center now and i think it's a mistake i think he should have gone the duncan way i would have gone sleeker um faster versus like just trying to turn yourself into 2002 shack i don't get it well up to davis i think he got really sick of hearing about how soft he was and i think if

you're a young guy which why does he care you're anthony davis don't listen to anybody do what's best because he cares because some people care and some people don't and davis is clearly a guy who cares he gets sick of hearing about like remember this goes back to that phoenix series and him playing when it looked like he shouldn't have been out there and then i think people that were plugged in kind of knew that it was davis sick of watching Shaq shit on him on TNT. So he's like, I'm going to go ahead and play. So, you know, all of us that want to pretend we never care about what anybody else thinks. Most of us are full of shit, even with ourselves about it.

You know, most of us have some part of us that do care about what other people think. And then there's a lot of people that care about everything that everybody says about him. And I think Davis is somebody that cared. That's where I think he just goes, all right, I'm soft. Fuck this. I'm going to get huge. I'm going to get strong. And now he's putting together one of the worst seasons, even though some of the other weird stats for AD tell you he's been pretty good this year.

And I'm not writing off AD or whatever, but it has been a really brutal couple months with shot selection and then the lack of shot making. And the way he moves on a basketball court. And I haven't seen him in person yet, which I really want to go to a Laker game at some point because I want to see it in person. But it reminds me of the Red Sox. They had Andrew Benintende, who is this really athletic, good defensive player, decent hitter. And then one year he came in, he put on 20 pounds and all of a sudden he lost. He couldn't get around on fastballs anymore. He couldn't run. He couldn't steal bases anymore. He didn't move in the outfield the same way. And at some point Cora, the manager got mad about it. I don't know why he put on all this weight. He changed what he was good at basically.

And the Davis thing, I don't know why. It's almost like Duncan needs to just call him and be like, Hey dude, you kind of, you know, you, me, KG, a couple of us, like we're, the reasons we were good was because we were, we were so athletic, but we were malleable and we could run the floor. And why do you, why are you into it? He's got to weigh like 270, 280 pounds now, right? I don't know. He's huge. But I mean, we had a text going back and forth with all first team on the floor. Oh, first team falling on the floor? The Vince Carter All-Stars?

Yeah. Because I don't know who I had. I had one. Well, no. Towns is up. Towns and Davis are... Towns and Davis. Davis, I mean, Davis when he goes downs,

I'm constantly... Like when LeBron goes down, I know he's going to get right back up after he checks for fake blood. Oh, Jay Crowder. That was another one. Jay Crowder is definitely first team. When you go to Jay Crowder's basketball reference, you'll be like, he was seven times first team all on the floor.

Right. He has a basketball camp where he just teaches people how to roll around under the basket for five minutes trying to get a flagrant. Yeah, those towns is another one.

Good pull. Which one? Jay Crowder's. Great. Jay Crowder. Well, that was you. I think that chain started because we were watching

whatever Suns game. It was Phoenix and Golden State probably the back-to-back this past week. Jay Crowder was down. Yeah. Back to the Durant thing. It's just such a bummer that this is who he went all in on.

And I think he's the 10th best player of all time. And I think if they can make the finals again, and however that plays out, he has a chance to move into the top nine for me. It's just a bummer that he's had two chances now to really determine where am I going to be and who am I playing with? And the first time he did it perfectly,

but for him, it didn't. And I'm not killing him on wanting to not stay at Golden State because I think he got what he wanted to get out of it. He had three great years there. They could have won three titles. But then this iteration of it where he goes to this weird Nets team and then now they have this team where they have two guys and a bunch of minimum guys and they're really relying on

LaMarcus Aldridge in a crazy way and they don't really have a way to get better. So in some ways, he's like what LeBron has kind of forced himself in a corner to with the Lakers, where there's no outs with the team. I don't know what the outs are with the Nets. Like, I guess you could try to trade Joe Harris and put Cam Thomas in there. But if they actually wanted to improve this team, it's got to be the Kyrie piece. And who wants Kyrie? You know, who's trading for Kyrie at this point? I just read a thing today.

Who knows if it was true? Scoop Robinson was talking about it. I saw it on Hoopsype. But how Kyrie's the happiest he's been in years. Do we know if Kyrie even wants to play basketball? Oh, he said multiple times that he does and that, you know, basketball is his gift and, and all these different things. He's doing a really bad job of convincing us that he does want to play basketball. But yeah, if I'm Durant, I mean, but you know what, man? I mean, you and I caught all this shit all those years

when Kyrie was still on Boston. It was that last miserable year. And then he left after he said he wasn't going to leave, which again, I watched those games. I didn't care that he left because I just didn't. And again, I think you care about it more than I do. But we always got all this shit because we would kind of like give you a clue

into what the vibe was around kairi without going all the way because as we've always said there were more people that were probably worried about where his head was at than it was that they were actually mad at him right and to have all this play out this way where it's basically wasting durant and i get why he left you know san francisco he he shouldn't have gone there if he thought that it was going to be his team and not steps and it's kind of back to your whole Kobe and Shaq thing. Like Kobe couldn't stand Shaq's work ethic because nobody had the Kobe work ethic. And Shaq's like, Hey, the reason we're winning titles back in that era is me, not you. And Kobe's like,

fuck this guy. And they went with Kobe. So even if it works for a while, even if everybody gets along, Steph, who I think is probably the greatest teammate of this NBA generation, that still was like, now Durant's like, I'm going to go play with Kyrie. And the Harden part of it, again, that's baked into it because he ends up getting traded there later on. I'm with you that I'd hate to think

that Durant's done winning championships because even if you don't like Durant, which there are a lot of people that don't like Durant because of the Golden State part of it, if you're so anti-Durant, then I guess you're going to get your wish because it feels like we're wasting a lot of prime years here with a roster around him

that was supposed to be a lot better, obviously. I think he underestimated the love, just how deep the roots were with Warriors fans and the Bay and Steph. I think he thought he was going to this awesome team.

And he didn't realize that it's very similar to what Kobe's like in LA, where it's just like, it's Steph's town, that's it. And I think after, I know, because we were spending time with him that summer because we did a few pods of them. I think after he went toe-to-toe with LeBron that first time they won the title,

he just was like, this is it, I've done it. I'm the best player in the league. Come give me my props. And then it was the same stuff. It was, well, you only won because of this. And it was just slight, slight, slights, which is what drove him to want to start his new thing. I think he looks at the Golden State thing as like,

that's where I went to law school. It was three years. I got my degree. And now I'm out in the real world. He's doing incredible on the business side. But he went all in on Harden and Kyrie. And the Harden thing is salvageable because that's a conditioning thing. I don't feel like he's in good shape yet. Do you?

No, but I wouldn't ever say that he plays like he looks like he's in great shape. The advanced stats are arguably the worst since the early Oklahoma City years when he wasn't starting games. The three-point shooting is, you know, he's actually not in the neighborhood of the high three-point shooting guys. Like he's never, you know, 36 is a really good number, but, you guys like he's never you know 36 is a really good number but you know he's not like ever touching 40 i would tell you this though the free throw free throws are way down they're down but they're starting to creep back up here

they're starting to creep that he had 15 the other night against minnesota and it's some of that shit that people are falling for um but you can see him still a little frustrated by it all you can see when he takes threes and this is what was always annoying about the three-point attempts for anybody searching that foul out it's like you're not even trying to make the shot anymore and he'll still kind of turn his body where he hopes to brush into you a little but he's not going to fall down as much because he hasn't gotten that call a ton his passing is still terrific i mean there's still stuff he does with his passing that i'm just really really impressed with but uh they're actually you know record wise i think every time you look at them you're like oh wait they're pretty good still and that seems to be something

we quickly forget i mean they're tied with the bulls right now just percentage points ahead well we both watched that we both watched that bulls game and it was kind of shocking how the bulls took it to them in the fourth quarter because i felt like the nets were game and it was kind of shocking how the Bulls took it to them in the fourth quarter. Cause I felt like the Nets were trying. If it was one of those, ah, they took the Nets by surprise a little bit. I was like, no, the Nets felt like that was a playoff game and the Bulls still kind of surgically took them apart in the fourth quarter. I wonder, I remember like a month ago talking about how fun a Kyrie Porzingis trade would be where that I just hate watching Dallas. Dallas is almost a no watch for me at this point. I no kidding.

Yeah, I can't do it. I don't, I don't expect to hear that at a, yeah, especially Luca has been hurt. He's been out of shape and I just don't like the team they put around him. I can't watch Porzingis and Luca anymore.

And I just think like just even having anybody who could create as a second person next to him would help that team so much. But let's, uh, let's take a break. Some more NBA stuff we want to cover. I'm just going to flag this for you, Rosillo. Basketball reference is one of the great truth tellers of all time. First noticed this when I was doing my book and I was trying to rank people and really going through the stats. Cause in some cases you just had the stats and you had like YouTube clips and that was it. But in general, when the points per game and the free throws start going down and you can look at somebody's career for 10, 12, however many years it is. And you just see that points per game arc going down like it has with Harden. It's usually a terrible red flag. Now you could say, oh,

it's a different situation, whatever. But he has kind of the perfect arc that like, if you go look at Allen Iverson's basketball reference where it's like he's in the 30s and he's in the high 20s and all of a sudden it's done. That's the dramatic. Clearly there's more going on there. This is a more old school, somebody who's just not at the peak of his powers anymore.

And you think of all the stuff they gave for him. I think they were expecting somebody who could at least be one of the best seven players in the league for the next couple of years. Now, if he goes to Philly and it's Simmons and a bunch of picks last year, and he's with Embiid, is it a better version of Harden or is it the same? How do you think it plays out? Alternate universe, he's in Philly last year. Uh, you know, I don't know. He got hurt, you know, he got hurt. versus he's in Philly last year?

I don't know. He got hurt. He got hurt. So now he's automatically healthy in Philadelphia. That's a big assumption. Durant. But he didn't tear his ACL. He pulled his hammy. And it happened like eight months ago.

So you're saying Harden right now with Philadelphia? Yeah, I'm saying I wonder if part of it is the situation. No, because I think Durant's so easy to play with. I think Durant bails these guys out of bad possessions all the time. You know, I don't... Clearly, I mean, do you feel like Harden's impeding anything Durant's doing? I think everybody around Durant... I don't. I'm just trying to play it out. Like, so do we think this just happens

wherever he goes? Harden. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I don't know why there'd be a much better version of him with Philadelphia when he's playing with

the best offensive player other than, you know, it depends on what you want with Steph or Durant. But I still think if you need a bucket at the end of a playoff game, you still feel better with a seven-footer with a handle than you do somebody Steph's size.

So I don't know. Have you seen some of the... I'm having a hard time understanding. Give me your version of it then. I'm not saying you're wrong, but give me your philosophy on what it would be with Embiid and why it might be different or a higher ceiling of Harden because that's where I'm confused. I think Philly's all-around team is better. And I think it's a better spot for Harden where there's no, oh, who should take it this

time? And obviously he's going to defer to Durant a lot of these times because Durant's the best scoring forward we've ever had in our lives. On the Philly team, it's him and Embiid, but the combo makes more sense to me in my head. And I might be wrong. Maybe it makes more sense. You might be right, though. Then you have a big guard next to Maxie. You have a big guard next to Curry. Yeah, just like the team for him better. I don't think

he would have to play point guard as much. He's basically playing point guard for the Nets, which I think at this point of his career, I don't know if that's awesome either. Yeah, but he's basically been a point guard now for a decade. I get it. And to be fair too, maybe Max or Curry are involved in one of the trades and the other way going out. Maybe it's an easier slot to

kind of fill right in, but I mean, whether it's Claxton not playing, Blake's not playing, Joe Harris isn't playing, you know, they got Cam Thomas out there, the rookie from LSU. I mean, and they kind of like needed him to create shots. I was shocked by that in the Bulls game. I don't know what their outs are,

but I'm guessing the Joe Harris contract or the Kyrie would be if they're trying to get better. But this is also a team that could have signed Dinwiddie last year, right? They could have just kept him. They could have, but the numbers would have been just... They could have given him a contract. Yeah, but at some point, what do you care about the numbers if you're if your numbers are already insane and it doesn't seem like they cared about the money to begin with but he was an asset they gave away they gave away jared allen

as an asset which kind of turned into a low 20s pick and they really were pot committed to deandre jordan for some reason even though he's been done for three years. Speaking of that, Lakers. I just don't think it's salvageable, and people are like, you just hate the Lakers. Well, both are true, maybe. Well, I like rooting against the Lakers.

The second one's definitely true. Sports hate the Lakers. Right, and what we've been doing here is I've been kind of prepping for my position on however I'm going to counter you on this one. And that is, why don't you just go ahead and do all your Lakers stuff and then I'll follow it up. All right. I don't have any Lakers stuff. I think they're a slightly above 500 team.

The players together make no sense. They didn't make sense as they were being put together and they don't make sense when you watch them. And I don't really know what the outs are. And then you look at their spot track and you look at all the salaries and it's like, what are their moves? Basically, their moves come down to,

is somebody going to take Westbrook? And I don't think they'll admit defeat on the Westbrook thing. I actually think, you know, we've seen LeBron get pretty cutthroat with teammates. Like he did it in 2018 with Wade where it's like Wade reunion. And then in three months, he's like, all right, dude, go back to Miami. So maybe he would get cutthroat with Westbrook. I don't know, but they have no outs. And this is a team that, um, is going to be in the plan. There'll be in that 7-10 range, I think.

I think that's where we're headed because we haven't even had the Davis injury yet. And he's going to get injured with the weight he's carrying. I just don't think he's going to play a full season. He's carrying too much weight. Of all the things you get right and wrong, which are plenty on both sides of this before we get ready to preview a season, and the Bulls would be a good example

of getting something wrong, the one thing that I thought I was as on as anything was you saw the final signings of all of these guys, and I just go, Vogel's fucked. Vogel's fucked because you just signed a bunch of guys who aren't just like expected, but they have real personal resumes. There's going to be a pridefulness with this group where you're going to have to end up telling a few of these guys,

hey, you're not starting, and you're not going to be on the group during the closing minutes, and you might even get some DNPs. So it was going to be tough. I was reading some Lakers article the other day. It's like, well, we're still not ready yet because they haven't gotten Nunn and Ariza back yet. You're like, wait, are you serious? If Nunn

and Ariza... He's more washed up than Jordan is is and so they just benched jordan and bradley where bradley had some defensive moments i thought at times but the spacing with those two doesn't work so now it's dwight who's back and then horton tucker starting the westbrook part of this i to be fair i was like maybe in the regular season when they need an emotional lift when the other guys are coasting when the other guys are missing games it'll make some sense it's not going to make any sense in playoffs that was being too nice and i hope lakers fans see this like this is

why you and i talk about this the way that it is it isn't just about the triple doubles it's the freelancing on defense that is more costly than just a bad shot like you want to miss the three all right whatever plenty of guys do that. But when you just decide, I'm going to just kind of go over here for no apparent reason on defense and you blow these assignments over and over and over again, which is something he's always done,

it's a real problem. And it almost makes you unplayable, but you can't do that with Westbrook. And then there's the LeBron piece of this. There's seven and five with him. Doubting him is basically a career decision. It is a failure for your career decision. But there are numbers, which you and I have talked about, that are alarming here. He's up to eight and a half three-point attempts per game.

He's usually in the sixes. All right. Three points up, free throws down is not a good recipe for him. Exactly. Rebounds, second lowest since his rookie season, 5.7. Free throw attempts, 4.8. That's the career low. He's hitting three. Is it just over 33%? That's the lowest in five years. And that's with him playing almost 37 minutes a game, which is the most in the last five seasons.

And I'd say he hasn't ever played, I believe, four consecutive games in a row this season, Bill. So, you know, again, it's LeBron, benefit of the doubt, open mind. Let's see everybody actually play. Let's see Vogel get a rotation here in January where he hurts some feelings. But there are little hints that he is finally becoming an older basketball player. And I tell you, there's even moments in a game, I thought in that Clippers game where he had to play center,

which is always tough. I don't care who you are, trying to defend the driver and then also worrying about the big man, where he did look a little old, but that could be just conditioning the fact that he hasn't gotten a steady pattern at all. So there's a lot of alarming things

about this Lakers thing. They're tough to write off with the two guys, but you're right. They're not going to be ahead of Phoenix, Golden State with Klay back, Utah. Those teams are all locked seeding-wise. Phoenix and Golden State are levitating above everybody else.

I think Utah is the wild card. I was on Logan and Rajah's show yesterday. Mitchell has some moments that make me wonder if there's a jump for him to have as the season goes along, like a little mid-2000s weight-ish. I know we've made that comparison before, but he does have some, no matter who's on the court, where he has some of these two-minute stretches where he's just the best basketball player on the court and doesn't seem to matter who else is. And I do value that, especially as we get into the playoffs. And that's why neither of us are going to count out LeBron because LeBron will have those moments too. And it'll be like,

I don't care who's on the other team. LeBron, he's going to be able to get to the rim if he really wants. And he did add these crazy 28-foot step backs that he seems like he's making a little more than he used to. I still don't love it. And I don't think ultimately if I'm a Laker fan, those aren't the shots I would be banking on to try to win playoff series. But the bigger, the bigger thing to me is

just how bad Davis has looked. You know, that some of the Davis stats now that we have real sample sizes, just how bad of a jump shooter he is this year. And it's not a five-game stretch. Now it's like a 20-game stretch where he's just like the worst shooter in the league from 18 feet. That wasn't the guy from four years ago. And I think there's some really concerning, if you look at him now versus looking at some of those Pelican peaks, he just looks like a different player four years ago, in my opinion. Even though I know the stats are relatively similar,

I'm just saying what I see with my eyes. Yeah, if you go with some of that raw stuff here where you're like, what's the problem, guys? It's 25-10 again. A couple assists, he's got you a couple blocks and all that. But then Kirk Goldsberry had this stuff on charting his shot attempts. And, I mean, I don't think this was

an exaggeration, but was he like last out of 98 qualifiers in a certain range and in a range that he's living in yeah when what made him special to me was his him from 16 to 18 combined with how he could get to the basket but um yeah it's it's rough now watch they're playing the Celtics tonight I'm sure they're gonna probably beat the Celtics by 15 now that we've spent time on this. But I don't think they have a lot of outs. And more importantly, I just think the Suns and Warriors,

the upside of those two teams and what we've already seen from them. We've talked about this in the past. When you're rolling off like 18 in a row, that's a different level. There's a consistency talent thing going on. And I know it's regular season, but I think both of those teams have the ability to rip off 16 to 18. I think Milwaukee does too,

and Milwaukee's healthy again. I could see Milwaukee going on a big, big run. Now, will they even let that happen? Will they start resting guys? Are they conserving guys? Because they put on a lot of miles on themselves last year. But I think those three teams, the ceiling of those three teams is really high. And then after that, for me, it drops off.

And the Bulls are probably the one kind of wildcard team for me. Could they have a ceiling that gets into that group? And you and I text about this a lot. I think we're both kind of stunned by how good their execution is in the fourth quarters. That's the amazing thing to me with that team. I feel like in a close game, I just like everything they do. I like their shots. I like how they're able to defend in the perimeter. I like the guys they play and it feels like there's some upside because they haven't gotten Vooch going yet. All right, where do you have the Bulls, like in big picture in your head? You know, it's hard for me when it's new, and that's why, you know,

I think when you looked at a normal East going in, and the East has been better, I think we just realize it's deeper now. You're like, okay, which of the eight teams are they going to go ahead and replace? And, you know, every single day of the week, I take Chicago over Boston at this point. Atlanta has really struggled defensively after kind of feeling like they righted the ship

and were passable enough defensively last year. The Knicks are a mess. So, you know, it just happens. Every year you're going to start to have these teams. Like Washington is not the team that we thought, you know, I didn't think I thought they were that when they had that really good record. Them slipping, I think, is a little bit more predictable

than them looking like they're going to be a top four seed. So now Chicago knows exactly who they are almost every night, even with, you know, not a perfect situation where they had to play Javante Green in some tough defensive matchups because they didn't have Patrick Williams. But what I love about it all is I think there's something to be said of teams that have

had players that have done stuff individually, and now you're kind of at that point in your career where you're like, do you guys just want to play ball and try to win some fucking games here? And there's something to be said of guys being collectively over it. Zach Levine is a terrific player. He's as gifted as anyone athletically right now

in the league, but the shot selection, decision making, all of it was steadily improving, but not necessarily what you wanted to have. And now Levine knows I've got two other guys I can trust with the ball in their hands to either make a shot or drive it as well. DeRozan, his advanced numbers have gone up four straight years from ages 29 to 32. The passing always got better at San Antonio. Now he's making shots, which seems weird. I still don't love a

three-year, what, $82, $85 million deal for him at the time. But I think Chicago's like, hey, why don't we just go get a guy who we know we can plug in for 20? And then Lonzo, who's just a really great compliment with everybody else. And so Vooch defensively is always going to scare the hell out of me. The rebounding, maybe in a tough, bigger series, is going to scare me a little bit. But this is a team, when I watch them, and Caruso's out, I know, for a little bit here. When I watch them defensively and who they are, it looks like a guard group in their first year, 20-plus games in this, where they all trust each other.

I love that when I know I throw in a Bulls game, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm going to get, and it's good. I have some bad Bulls takes from the last couple months. I don't think I'm alone. I didn't think they'd be good defensively. They are. I didn't think Zach and DeRozan would mesh like

they have. They did. The DeRozan thing's interesting, though. I hated the contract. I didn't really understand it. I still might, by the way, but I've been wrong about what it would be for this year. Well, now there's two years left, so you can argue.

The last year is the expiring. It's fine. I think it's a win for them. It's already a good deal. It's almost over. You know what? Because I made that, as you know, I make dumb lists just to try to get in my head

the perspective of where guys rank and things like that. So if you hear Darrell say, I'm only trading day, I'm only trading Simmons for one of the best 30 guys in the league. It's like, all right, what's that list look like? And then you make the list and it's, and you go, oh, none of those 30 guys are getting traded for Ben Simmons. Every, every time the team says no. So anyway, you make those lists. Okay, wait, can I just interrupt? So if you did your hypothetical list of 30 guys, the team on the other end would say no 30 times?

Yeah, you're just making the list. It's like Dame Lillard, Donovan Mitchell, Jason Tatum, Devin Booker, John Morant, Trey Young. You just, all of a sudden you're at 30 and you're like, all right, which team's going? Oh, cool, let's take Ben Simmons, the guy who will play basketball for this top 30 asset. But when the Bulls get to Rosen and they have Levine and they have Vucevic, if you're just making a list of who are the top 50 players in the league, those three guys are on it.

So in a way it's like, it's like in fantasy, Sal always does this. Sal will spend $60 on Derrick Henry and $65 on Alvin Kamara. And you're like, wow, that's dumb. He only has so much money left. And then you look and he has like three of the top 20 guys in fantasy. And then, oh yeah, his team's eight and four. He just figured, he just kind of figured out the fringes went all in on these three guys. That's kind of the Bulls thing, right? I think Vooch, even though he hasn't played well this year, I think if you're making a list, he's still probably one of the 50 best players in the league.

Levine and DeRozan are in the top 30 at this point, the way they're playing. And then Lonzo as like the perfect fourth guy. Perfect. Doesn't care how many points he scores. I think their coach is really good. And, you know, if they can get Williams back, that'll be the big X factor for them.

But the team makes way more sense than I thought. I also think, I think the Bulls fans really like this team. There's some energy behind the whole situation where you think like that

it's been seven, eight years of just kind of depressing basketball and depressing situations and guys trying to get out and the Thibodeau thing. And now it's just like, all right, here's a fun team for you guys. Enjoy. Here it is. I'm glad you said that too. Cause I think that's where you look at a DeRozan and go, okay, cool. Fine. We're not getting any of the max guys. Like we've missed out. Free agency has

not been kind to us here in Chicago. So why don't we just do this? Like we'll pay. And there's probably more teams competing. Maybe you get that number up to where it was. It it felt weird at the time because just weren't hearing that much about him or anything and then you're like wait you're gonna do a sign and trade and give up and then you get to do three years on this guy to 85 and he's 32 years old like that what like how many other teams are in the mix with you on this but i just think that we we don't do a good enough of a job even though we're aware of it of reminding ourselves there are certain franchises just go, all right, fine, cool. I'll take the B minus guy. You know?

Right. Like, we'll take the B minus guy. By the way, the Knicks should have done that. There's a world where the Knicks just have Lonzo and DeRozan as their backcourt. And instead, they try to spread money around. And I think the Knicks are in a way worse spot than they were six months ago. You just go on down the line with those contracts. Like, Rose for 13.

Kemba for 8. New Orleans Noel for 13, Berks for 10. And it's like they didn't get, there's nobody on that top 60 list that any of those guys, they could have just given DeRozan three years, 85, not even done a signing trade for that. And at least they have DeMar DeRozan. You know, I saw, I think it was bad. You've DeRozan. You know? I think it was about as wrong as that. You've gone all the way to the other side of this where you think teams with cap space should have just brought DeRozan in now. From what we've seen, this is all

hindsight, and I'm the one who the DeRozan contract was one of my least favorite of free agency. But in retrospect, if you're a Knicks fan, and you're watching the way DeRozan plays, and you also have Rando, who's a little old school in the same way, right? It's like two point baskets in the last seven minutes of a game, like just execution. And DeRozan's like one of the best people in the league at that versus what you ended up with. And the Kemba thing, the Kemba thing made me wonder, do you guys you guys have scouts? Like just ask anyone who followed the Celtics the last two years, if it's a good idea

to sign Kemba at this point when he's, he just has no lift anymore. So the next thing is a tough one because they're now gravitating toward the panic trade. And I think they have to be considered in any Dame thing, but the way RJ kind of took a step back this year, I don't think he could be the centerpiece of it. So I don't even think they're in the mix for that. I think Dame gets traded in the next six weeks. I think there's a lot of tea leaves being dropped now.

You're not ready to go there? No. I haven't done enough work on that one specifically. I like the answer. Yeah. I just think the way it's gone and the fact that you've had these ugly losses already, maybe McCollum will be the first thing.

And there was some McCollum stuff today where you just, I feel bad reading it because he's a good guy. He's been on this podcast, right? Now he's just in the trade machine vortex for weeks on end, where it's just like, that would suck. Like, imagine that's your professional life. You're putting all this time and care into your craft.

Your team's not playing that well. And now you're in trade machine vortex. And that's just where you are. And every day is a new fake trade and a new rumor. And that's just what your life is until it happens. Yeah. I mean, he thought it was bad before.

Didn't he get on your case? It was like, you want to trade me all the time, man. I know. He said that about you. He did. He said,

he said it on this podcast. He was making fun of me about it. But yeah, I mean, that could be like a legitimate blow it up. I don't know. But I think the league is now really rallying around Dame. And, you know, there's...

I wouldn't rule out a bunch of teams. I don't want to start that. I don't want to get the aggregator fires going. But I think there's more teams in a Dame kind of sweepstakes thing than I think people would realize. Why don't you just lean into the aggregators on this one and go, here are the top five teams I'm hearing for as a Lillard match,

just to see it happen. I'm not doing it. It's not worth it anymore. It's not fun to do that anymore. If it was like me and you, I mean, the thing that sucks about doing pods now, if we were just hanging out, shooting the shit,

which is what we try to do on a pod. Now, sometimes you can't do that because things get blown out, you know, which I get. I mean, this is a public podcast. I get it. But I certainly have some inclinations on some ideas, but I'm afraid to throw them out because everybody's so crazy now. Why don't you do this? Because I know you've been getting real antsy. You sent me a text the other day. You're like, all right, I'm fucking bored. Let's start some trades up.

What do you think is, not based on information you've heard, up what do you think is not based on information you've heard but what do you think the market is for dame i just wonder if they'll tell dame they're going to do everything he wants you know they're going to bring in a new person basketball ops that phillips is aligned with that lillard signs off on the ownership on and on and on and that lillard because he does like his situation in portland the living situation that it's his team all these things but they can change i mean hell lebron like being in charge of cle the living situation, that it's his team, all these things, but they can change. I mean, hell, LeBron liked being in charge of Cleveland the two times that he ran the franchise.

It doesn't mean things can't change. You say he likes the situation. Everything about that situation has changed except the city he plays in. They've changed the GM, they've changed the coach, the owners changed. A lot of the guys on the team has changed. Really, the only thing that's similar

about the situation is he's playing with C.J. McCollum and Nurkic, I guess, would be the only... Those are the only constants. And the uniforms. And they're terrible on defense again. So, you know, whatever it is, this thing, they tried to fix it around the margins and it just never worked.

And Nurkic's health... What would you do? If you were the GM, would you go fringes or would you go Dame Shake? Because I would actually... Nurkic's health. What would you do? If you were the GM, would you go fringes or would you go Dame Shake? Because I would actually, Nurkic would be the first one for me. I would try to do a smaller scale Nurkic move. Expiring contract. First thing I'd do is I'd ask Dame what he wants to do and hope I get an honest answer out of it.

Oh, so you would do the Dame lunch? Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's what you got to do. Dinner or lunch? Lunch is a little more low pressure but dinner is more this is how much you mean to me let's go to a really nice place get the back room what's what the fuck am i gonna do watch the t-wolves again i'll go i'll make time for

dinner me it's not like i'm picking anybody up so i i think you have to you have to go into that ask him and hope you get an honest answer and be like, what do you want to do? Because if you're leaning towards you want to go nuclear and force your way out of here, then let's work together on this. But I would be making sure as the new GM that I had no choice in this, that I didn't show up going, hey, let's get rid of Dame. Because still having Dame, whatever you think of him as a smaller guard, as he ages and some of the terrible shooting numbers we saw from the season. Whatever you think of him, you still have a very important piece to a franchise that's a marketable piece. You're in contention. It's not championship driven or any of those things, but it's still like you're somewhat relevant here. Somewhat isn't even being nice enough.

You're very relevant still as just, hey, we've got the Trailblazers game tonight and all those different things. So if he's still on board of whoever is in charge again of trying to figure this thing out and seeing if he can be a part of the future, I think that's your first move. Anybody that I think goes in there aggressively is like, ah, I'm just getting a reset button because we don't defend enough. We keep losing in the playoffs.

Without realizing where Dame's head is at with this, I think would be a mistake. So would you grab McCollum for Simmons for McCollum? Yeah, I would have that deal. Portland would have done that deal with the older management the entire time. That's, that's the deal they wanted to do. It doesn't seem like that's the deal. Does that seems that's like Philly's worst case scenario deal? Well, the argument from the Portland side, I believe would have been okay all right Ben maybe you know if you're ranking players one through however far down the list you want to go people

would have Simmons across the league rank higher than CJ but look at how CJ would fit with the group that you have versus how Simmons is fit with the group that you have and that argument was never good enough to convince Daryl so there you go Daryl um I can't believe we're talking about Simmons trades I'm not doing this anymore how much more time do we have can we talk about succession really quick I could talk about succession for the rest of the day but I think

20 minutes will do it alright we'll take a break talk succession I'm really proud of ourselves we've been talking for 70 minutes neither of us took a Steph victory lap. I feel like if Steph was the Soho house, we would have been the two CEOs constantly throwing parties, holiday extravaganzas. Are you a member?

Just bring your Vax cards. I'm a member of the Steph house. You and I are like we never gave up on that guy we're allowed to go to the Malibu Steph House we're allowed to go we have access to all the Steph Houses alright Succession

so we're taping this on a Tuesday this will be the last part of the podcast so if you don't watch Succession or you haven't seen Sunday's episode for whatever reason, feel free to turn it off, come back later or just turn it off and I'll see you on Thursday

on this podcast and you can listen to Rosillo's pod. Do you think Kendall is dead? I don't. Okay, make the case. You want to make the case or you want me to make the case? I want you to make the case why you to make the case you want me to make the case i want you to make the case why you don't think he's dead well yeah we could argue the team the the show needs some sort

of shake up here but i feel like the foundation of the show is son versus father and i don't know that we've gotten the full payoff although the dinner got very aggressive with logan going at kendall and lighting him up. We can do more of the dinner a little bit later. Like they finally had the head to head referencing the kid dying back in England. You were where all of us were waiting on that part of it. So that reference would maybe hint at,

Hey, maybe Kendall's dead here, but I just think the show's foundation, not these guys are doing an amazing job. I would not doubt Jesse Armstrong or anybody involved in this show, but I think it would significantly alter the foundation of what this show has been about.

Joanna Robinson wrote an incredible piece this week about the show and about all the imagery and tips for Kendall headed toward this way. They've done a good job both with the drowning and then him jumping off buildings, right? There's been over and over again, he's on a balcony

looking over. There's in the safe room episode, which is my favorite episode. It starts with him on the balcony kind of looking over the city and then the show ends and all of a sudden there's these protective windows up in the same spot that he was. And it's always about this guy, they're falling or drowning for three years. Right. And then they finally just said, fuck it. I mean,

he was even in a car as somebody else drowned. And then this week they said, fuck it and did it with the pool. I, my guess is, so go one of two ways. Either he's just dead in the last episode and nobody knows because none of the screeners have leaked out. Either he's just dead in the last episode and nobody knows because none of the screeners have leaked out.

Either he's just dead and the last episode is them dealing with this or maybe he's in a coma. Maybe they found him in the pool. So you haven't seen it? You haven't seen it? Nobody's seen it. Because somebody else

who would have the juice to know asked me the exact same question because we were texting about the show and he goes, you think Kendall's dead? And I went, I just can't imagine them altering. I don't think, I still think there's some meat on that bone of the Kendall and Logan thing.

Well, so I would bet the more I'm thinking about it, I would bet on he gets saved. Maybe there's some sort of scare. Maybe he really it snaps him out of it. And he realizes he has to confess to being in the car accident because what is the only way that he can trump his dad at this point? His dad's defeated him. His dad's checkmated him. Even he has this big dinner showdown with him that he's all excited about. And he does the switch the plate thing to get into his dad's head about, oh my God, am I getting poisoned? His dad just sniffs out all that and defeats him every step of the way. The only piece he has left is actual real knowledge of a crime that his dad committed,

which he also committed because he killed this waiter in the car crash. And then his dad covered it up for him. And so they plant the seed in that last episode with, hey, somebody's working on a podcast. By the way, that was a ringer podcast. I wish they had shouted us out. The fall of the Roy family narrative podcast. That would have been a perfect ringer pod. But they plant that seed and he's like,

so they bring the waiter back. Then the dad plants the seed again. He throws the waiter in his face. This is his only move left. All right. Yeah, I killed the guy and you covered it up and that's how he takes him down i can see that being the season finale and that goes back to your father versus son premise yeah you know the show is so good that this would be the kind of show that would

say yeah we know there's still meat left on the bone and that's why we're going to kill him now we're not going to run it to the point where it's not fun anymore you know it's funny in that scene and i i normally wouldn't do this but i thought there was a really good chance too for logan to call out kendall on his kind of you know activism play where it was i'm going to be this activist which was never really very believable and they didn't really develop it all that much and i think they poked fun in it more than they could have and i thought logan you know could have probably had a line or two in there where he's saying oh and so what are you like some fucking hero now? Because people on Twitter liked you. You're so full of shit. Like, look at this villa, private chef. It's me. It's always been me. And

you're going to fight the thing that made you you, which isn't even a fucking real person. I thought like, oh, they're definitely going to get into that because he's going to call him out for how stupid it was and kind of like just have everybody on the same page. But then it was like, well, if you're going to sit there and say, hey, are you queer? Are you trying to fuck the waiter that you killed? It's like, oh, okay, we're going to go a little harder. Yeah. We're going to go a little harder on this. A little harder meter and, yeah, we're going bare bones.

So maybe the fake activist move by Kendall isn't as important. And I think the theory on it is great. Maybe this show is that because I love this show. I love this show in a way I've never liked a show. There's episodes that are about absolutely nothing. It's all dialogue driven. And I love every part of it. And I've gone back and watched the episodes again while I'm watching these, which is hilarious

because I realized just how good they are at planning stuff. They plant things in very believable ways. Like, okay, here's the setup. Here's the disruption part of it, and here's the payoff. And all these different parts of the storyline all connect there. The dead thing is just making the rounds. I don't... What is the show? The New Yorker profile is one of the reasons people thought that maybe he's dead because the timing of it when it comes up, but it almost seems like here's our profile of Jeremy Strong

right before his last episode. Then there's quotes in there that are quotes. I'm not the first person to make this point. Quotes in there from Brian Cox and Kieran Culkin and the showrunner that are the kind of things you say when you don't have to work with somebody again. They like, first of all, one of the most riveting profiles I've read in a while. And I know you loved it too. Um, it was rare to have that kind of candidness, both from the person who's the subject of the profile and the people who have to work with them. And it was just clear, like, this is a really difficult guy who has this whole process.

And I watched the, I watched the show after I read the profile because I watched it. Then I watched it again after the profile and that dinner scene with him and Brian Cox is totally different when you hear about all the inside stuff with that scene and how their methods are different. And Cox is kind of like, all right, enough with this method stuff. Be a fucking actor. Just show up, learn your lines, play off me. And that's what acting is. Jeremy Strong's got to do this whole,

if my character is going down a pit, I have to also go down a pit. And they talk about how he was sobbing after the scene because it was so emotional for him. And you could tell from the piece, Brian Cox is kind of like this fucking guy. Like, oh yeah, all right. This guy's reinvented acting. I'm pretty sure acting is this. But it's such a fascinating

scene to rewatch because the real stuff, the real life stuff is kind of in the scene in a little bit. Did you notice that? Yeah, the shaved head, which they bring up in the profile. Again, this profile is so great just because it's a profile it's michael shulman just came out uh i want to get into one other thing with a little bit later but you know the shaved head the rebirth and then he says you know i just did it but then i needed to do it again on my own to reinvent myself so you're like oh there's another clue yeah be it uh the brian cox part of it where he's you know an english theatrical

background in sort of like the traditional english actor i guess and they tell the story about how like dustin hoffman was on set of this movie in the 70s with this other like legendary guy and hoffman rolls onto the set just looks like shit and they're like what's wrong with you they're like well this character's really stretched and burnt out and tired so i stayed up and partied for like three straight nights i've been at a bender. And the other guy goes to Hoffman, like, how about just trying to act? How about you do that instead? Like, that's what we're all doing here. And you're right. What I love about this profile is not really taking any sides. Like too many times now it's like, okay, somebody has, they want to look cool. So they're going to cover somebody cool. And they're

going to try to be cool with the person. Or they want a total hit piece on this person because of my own personal shit. And this was just, hey, we're going to do this thing on Jeremy Strong where it's pretty clear he's not the greatest time to work with. And the other thing is like, you're also just playing Kendall Roy. Like this isn't some of these other roles where you're thinking about DiCaprio in The Revenant or something, which is even funnier because they talk about Strong and how he would basically work these unbelievable relationships. And he became a Daniel Day-Lewis guy. Daniel Day-Lewis becomes his mentor. Yeah, he was like his assistant.

Yeah, and he just wrote letters and he got his way and props to him for doing that. And I have to use it because I was just dying laughing all day yesterday thinking about it. Last of the Mohicans, it's shot in the Canadian wilderness, I believe. And Daniel Day-Lewis gets there earlier and is like, all right, we're making cabins. Let's go. So there's real construction people on the site making these cabins that people are going to live in. And Daniel Day-Lewis goes to hang a fucking window and screws it up. Now up now look i'm not telling you hanging a window in the frame is the hardest thing to do but you do kind of have to know the steps and i can't imagine anybody was letting him do finished

carpentry around this thing because trim work is an entirely different thing those guys are artists and it's very very hard and daniel day lewis is thinking well all right who's this last mohican sky well he probably installs windows he made his own canoe he made his own canoe and they see the window that he puts in and they're like why don't we just put you on a dining room table daniel is that okay like so as much as i appreciate these method actor things there's got to be so many people in the world around them they're like you actually don't need to do necessarily all of this shit and for a role like this where he's great as Kendall Roy, you're like, okay,

there's so many clues in that piece in The New Yorker where I think you'd agree there's just a lot of guys that were like, it's not always the best time. It's not the best time. He doesn't want to rehearse. And, you know, Jeremy Strong,

who is the actor, says, you know, I want to see the bear. I want to be scared by the bear by seeing it. And they're just like, all right, can we rehearse a couple lines, though? And they're like, no, can't.

Well, it answers the question, right? The writer went into that piece going, why did it take this long for a great actor to find the right role? And he answers it. That's what the piece is about. It's like, oh, because this guy was kind of a maniac method actor. And sometimes you have to find the right part at the right point in your career, and he knows it's the right part. I said, when House and I did our 25 favorite succession characters for the Prestige Pod,

I said I thought it was the best performance on an HBO show since Gandolfini. For Strong's performance as Kendall, I think is the best thing I've seen on cable prestige TV in 15 years. Like, I think he's that good. I think the nuance and the stuff that he's done, and it makes sense that the lines seem a little blurred

for him in real life versus Kendall. Like, he's immersed in that character. I almost, I read that piece and I wondered, can he come out of this? What's his next role? Is he just going to be a DA in some John Grissom book as his next part? I don't know how he comes out of this.

I think he's just going to be Kendall. It needs to be really hard to come out of it. Because when he's doing the answers in the piece, there's one part where they're at some... Where are they? He's got a place overseas where his wife is from uh yeah and they're at some seaside little villa and these guys recognize it from a guy richie film that he didn't like and they were like hey you know from you know whatever and he was like oh and then the guy doing the piece shulman says you know for reasons he wouldn't get into, he said he didn't enjoy the movie. And you can just see Kendall going, like, why didn't

you like the movie? Well, it was, I mean, it was a movie, but it was it just it was a movie. Yeah, we'll leave it. It's to be understood. Well, Keira Culkin, like, lobs a couple, like, harmless

grenades at him, but they are grenades so you think because you think the all right see now you got me thinking about this i love the way you do this you are very good at this well he said because we had access to criticisms of him from co-workers it's because they know he's dead and they don't have to work with him anymore this is a conspiracy bill at all this is you want 11. I don't think I'm the only one with that conspiracy. Where Culkin's basically saying, yeah, we had this one thing where he kept doing this speech, and then

the third time the lady who plays Shiv, Sarah Snook, in character was like, shut up, Kendall, as he started doing this speech. You put stuff like that, you tell a writer stuff like that, that might not be somebody you're still working with a year from now. Or maybe he knows.

It did raise my hackles up. Listen, Fantasy and I talk about this all the time. If somebody's doing a magazine profile, both the conceit of the writer and what the person who's being interviewed wants out of that profile, there's another really good example, the Adam McKay profile that Vanity Fair did. And in that profile, all of a sudden he goes into his whole fallout with Will Ferrell, who was like his best friend and his business partner. Now they don't talk.

And volunteers this information that I thought was really surprising that he talked about. He basically said, you know, they had a falling out, wasn't going great. They were going to dissolve the company at the same time he's doing this Lakers show and Will Ferrell wanted to play Jerry Buss and he cast John C. Riley, their friend for

Jerry Buss because he was, you know, he just thought Will Ferrell was going to be miscast and that was the blowout. There was some weird timeline stuff and Matt Bellany, who hasany, who writes for Puck, it's a really good newsletter. And Matt Bellany kind of broke it down. The story wasn't totally true because they cast Michael Shannon first and that got announced. So he cast Michael Shannon over Will Ferrell. They decided Michael Shannon didn't work as Jerry Buss. And then they got John Reilly. And so Ferrell was mad at some point of the process, but just to lay that out, this is his best friend. This is like, if me and House suddenly

were not talking anymore. And then I gave a magazine profile and just gave my side of the story about why House and I no longer talk, like very odd. So I was wondering, did the writer pull this out of him? Or did McKay want this out there? Because obviously in his life for a couple years, a lot of people in his life were like, hey, what happened with you and Will? And there's probably a Will side and an Adam side for why they broke up. And Matt Bellany did a good job of breaking down the two sides.

But I wonder, how does that end up in a piece? Because it shouldn't have. He shouldn't have talked about it. I don't think he should have. But I wonder like, how does that end up in a piece? Cause it shouldn't have, he shouldn't have talked about it. I don't think he should have, but how does it get in there? And what is the upside for Adam McKay to have that out there? I read it differently. I thought it was,

let's hear it. Maybe McKay. Cause he was explaining, like I thought the part where he explained, you know, I did try to reach out to him. I've sent some emails, right.

And I just haven't heard anything. I thought it was a friend trying to take another chance at being friends still by revealing a story about how you didn't cast your buddy for a part and he's but heard about it how is that going to help you guys reconcile because that part's already been done i mean if that was the reason why if that's truly the reason why they're at this point is in their friendship but i when i was reading about like some of the i don't know i guess i kind of read it as like if i had somebody in my life who was really important that i still cared about we'd had this massive blow up and nothing else had worked to reconcile the relationship maybe i would be more motivated to share it not because i wanted to get my side out because i want my friend to maybe see how i felt and that I still care. So that's the glass half full version. The glass half empty is... That's

me though. Yeah, but glass half empty is I'm promoting a movie, this will get attention for it. Like if you're going to be the cynical version of that. I didn't even... Yeah, I know. But I don't know the answer. That's why I bring it up. I have no idea what the motivation was because the other thing is Joe Hagan's really good at getting people to say stuff they might not have known they were going to say. Right? So like an hour later, it's like, fuck, I can't believe I told him about that Lakers thing.

I was never going to talk about that, but I just felt comfortable. And then I said it. Now it's out there. You know, I don't know the answer. I don't know. And I'd have to, you know, God, I love answer i don't know and i'd have to you know i god i love the way your mind works on this i don't because the succession thing you think he's dead then you think he's dead because his co-workers were like he's not the greatest to work with no i think i think this is the kind of show that would have the balls to kill him off if they felt like that character had run its course.

I think the way they... Usually the big, big, big-ass shows and the greatest shows of all time, it's that second-to-last show of the season or the really memorable shows, so it fits that profile. The characters run its course. They basically beat the life out of him

and then the dinner scene was the last version of just destroying him. So it makes sense. We took him as far as he could go and maybe the show becomes more interesting with Kendall drowning in a pool. Or he almost drowns and it's an epiphany and now he realizes,

I'm going to go get my dad. Either way, I don't think he's going to be as involved in the show next year. I think the show steers toward the other characters and the Tom Shiv thing and Roman and Jerry and whatever the sexual harassment lawsuit that you know is coming with that whole thing. By the way, I thought that was one of the funniest things I've ever seen on a TV show, that dick pic section near the end. I was howling, laughing.

I just thought everything about that. And then Culkin realizing his dad got it and like his spine just crumbles at the table. He just doesn't know where to go. Everything about it was just so great. It's such a good show. It was an unbelievable scene. When Culkin looks at, at Brian Cox,

at the, at the conference table, like, Hey, my dad. And then immediately, this is the bet. This is why.

Like some shows. I don't know. I don't know. They just probably, you know, it's not like the hardest thing you would say, Hey, let's have a thing where Kendall or not. Kendall Roman sends roman sends a dick pic to his dad it's like okay and

then they have a meeting about it immediately after like all right let's go cover what's up with you are you weird right it's just it's like i'm trying to save my company i've got all these moving pieces let's get down to you and then it's like having a son explain to his dad why dick pics aren't a big deal was the best because that's probably how it would be handled although you know different well then it's here then goes right to the shiv jerry scene and shiv who's just turned into you could argue the most evil person on the show okay that's been her evolution and she's just like oh cool this is finally my chance and jerry who you know she's was the one receiving the dick pic it wasn't like she was asking for it and she realizes this is a way to screw over jerry which is pretty yeah and and she also you know they do like again here's here's what's so good

is that they do very believable plantings of these evolutions where Shiv decides she's going to go full Shiv by being out in Italy and talking with her mother who sucks. And the mother saying, it's good that you're not a mother. You know, I shouldn't have been a mother. That scene was incredible. Right. I should have had dogs. There's so many good lines that aren't trying to be good lines, too. That's the other thing that's great about this show.

You can see in other shows where the writer's trying to, like, show off. Yeah. This show shows off in its writing by not even trying. You know what I'm saying? Like, when Shiv called her mom, they're outside and the mom's walking. She's like, oh, good, Scary Popp mom's walking. She's like, oh, good. Scary Poppins is here. She's like this throwaway line.

It's like, scary Poppins. Great line. In the writer's room, you'd be like, I got one. Let's call her Scary Poppins. Everybody's like, good one. Good one. High five. Yeah.

The show, when it's really good, it'll have like three or four scenes that you could just watch like 10 times. Like that scene with Shiv and the mom, that dinner scene, and then the entire Dick Picks conference room, that whole thing are like three of the better stretches in the show's history. And they're all in the same episode. Yeah. Are you team Tom? I love Tom. I love him. I mean, it's very predictable what happens with this sexual pivot here where he's actually like welcoming to Kendall. But then he sits there and goes, you know, I just, I can't go with you because my senses,

you're going to get fucked because Logan never gets fucked. And it was, it was perfect. Great show. Can't wait for the season finale. Do you want to come on BS after me and Sal on Sunday night to do the succession reaction? Yeah, please. I mean, 25 minutes.

I rewatched the episodes in a way that I haven't consumed a show like this, and I don't even know. I don't know what it is. I don't know why it is. I went back and watched some of the first season stuff again, and I'm like, oh, wow, that was such a good job. It's almost in the moment you don't give the show enough credit for some of the stuff that it's pulling off. But again, the reason I like it is that there's shows that I like and I know why.

With this show, I even thought the first couple episodes of the season, I was like, all right, what are we doing? Like, when's it going to go? And yet, then like the birthday party episode, it just kind of went. You know, like I get all the reasons

of what they were doing and the plot line and Mattson and Gojo and all that kind of stuff. But I was like, I'm just enjoying hanging out with this group for an hour without any real, even if there's not any significant development, I'm just into it. Right.

They do a good job of when they have to move stuff along, they'll just have a giant, everybody in a room with lots of people and moving pieces and they'll just figure out how to play everybody against each other. It's an incredible show. rossillo you have uh you have your own podcast you're going to be doing yellowstone with chris ryan on the prestige tv you're doing that every week right yeah every week we missed one because of thanksgiving and then i got kirk herb street on wednesday for my great so all right good to see you as always this podcast was produced

by the man the myth legend uh a guy who was very drunk and happy last night, Kyle Creighton. We will see you on this podcast on Thursday. I don't have feelings within. On the wayside, I'm a person never lost. I don't have feelings within.