The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Surging Celts, Shaky Warriors, and Confounding Lakers With Ryen Russillo and Ethan Sherwood Strauss

Episode Date: March 7, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Celtics finding their identity, the Warriors struggling while Draymond Green is injured, the confusing Lakers, a look ahead to some wacky Western Conference playoffs, and more (1:54). Then Ethan Sherwood Strauss joins to discuss how sports agencies have been woven into the fabric of the modern NBA (1:05:39). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Ryen Russillo and Ethan Sherwood Strauss Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up on the BS podcast, we're going to talk basketball, basketball, and more basketball. And I'm going to try not to talk about how excited I am about the Celtics. That's my goal for this podcast. It's all next. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet at all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way,

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Rusillo is here, as he always is, on Sunday nights. Lots to discuss, including some optimism for the Boston Celtics. It's officially on. All the advanced stats have been drifting Boston's way. And then tonight, or today, Jason Tatum, the best game of his career, the best game I've ever seen him play, goes toe-to-toe

with Durant. My big takeaway, other than how good the defense has been and Al Horford and the fact that the team's a little tougher than it was last year and all this stuff, is that Tatum, back-to-back against Ja

and against KD, who I think are two of the best offensive players in the league this year, went toe-to-toe with them. And that was the big question with this team. What happens when we get

round one, round two, round three, and you have Tatum? Can he go toe-to-toe with these other gifted guys? And tonight, pretty encouraged today, pretty encouraging, right? Incredibly encouraging. You know, this was not part of the syllabus when we were going back and forth yesterday and today. And then that game ends and feels like, I think we have to do some Celtics. I'm like, look, think all the other times we've done celtics where i didn't want to do it but you have to and the analytics part is hilarious because like a week ago i did a rant being like look at you know have you seen some of those total points added player mvp stuff where there's one with yokich where he looks like he's like he looks

like he's greenland and everybody else is the united states right i mean it's just so off the charts and you go okay is that entirely like a fair representation of where he is in the MVP race compared to others? And people would say yes, because the numbers show that, but that's what some of these Celtics projections were. And I was like, this is ridiculous. Like, come on. And then you see a game like Memphis. And then again, today, uh, I I'm there with you. I, you know, I don't, what, what is the ceiling for them? I mean, I don't know that I'm going to be saying if they don't win the NBA Finals, it's a huge disappointment, but what is it? What's different to you about a team that at one point

was 18-21 and 500 for two years? Horford? Horford played, I think, 40 minutes in the Memphis game, but Horford as just looking like he did four years ago, that's one piece. The fact that Smart is healthy.

What are they, 18-2 in Smart's last 20 when he plays? And then the decision-making from Tatum. To me, that was the last piece of this. It's like, I know the guy can score. I know he can be streaky. On paper, it looks great. But do I trust his decision-making? And until the last couple weeks, I really didn't.

And he watched it, like he had 54. That wasn't the story for me. The story for me was I agreed with all the decisions he was making as the game was going along, where he's just, he was kind of problem-solving in a way that, I got to be honest, two months ago, I didn't know if he had it in him. I hoped he did, but did you?

Did you think he had it in him? I think going back to last year, it was just, hey, he's really talented. This team's talented. It still didn't make any sense. You have two young wings that can score and defend with anybody, and the team wasn't good. How does that happen?

Again, you watch them closer than I do. I still watch almost every game because I like talking to my dad about them. Although recently, up until the last few weeks, I was like, hey, the Celtics are a banned topic for us now. I can't keep talking about the same stuff over and over again. With all of it, not saying, hey, break the guys up,

but this is the first season I ever was like, look, if it ends like this again where they're 500 and losing the first round, maybe you see what's out there, but you're probably going to lose the trade. But at this point, I'm not completely against the question of it. To see Tatum,

I think part of it's like so many teams are selling out defensively now to double team the best player. I think the Celtics as a team weren't super prepared for it or they didn't like their options off of it, whether it was Richardson or Schroeder. I think Smart has gotten better with it. And I think there was two plays back-to-back today, Bill, where Tatum just went through everybody. And then pretty soon after that, he gets doubled and he didn't even think about forcing it. And I think it's really hard for scorers that have these score blinders on

because they've done their whole lives, and it's easy to them. But to then sprinkle in, hey, maybe on some of those drives, still be thinking about the corner, still be thinking about a cutter. And I feel like we're seeing it more from him than maybe we ever did before where it felt like his scoring was frustration drives as opposed to now it's like, you don't really know what I'm going to do. And now you're helpless against them. And he should 17 free throws actually felt like he could have gotten a couple more. It's weird. He, he was mad about, yeah, five calls that he didn't get. Um, and then shooting 50% for three, but that's that free throw three recipe. But the

comfort that he has with some of these passes that he's making now, I don't know where, I honestly don't know where it came from. And it really started over like the last six, seven weeks where he's finding guys in the corner and he's just hit this, it's like he's solved like whatever level

of the video game he was at. And now he's advanced to the next level. And I think if you're a Celtic fan or if you're studying the East and trying to figure out who's going to come out of this, it's a team that has some size. It's a team that has a little bit of a bench now. It doesn't fall off.

It doesn't have these random Langford minutes and Neesmith minutes. And you're watching going, oh, that guy's going to play 15 minutes. There's really no major fall off. And they have the ability to keep offense out there at all times. But the Horford piece is the part I wasn't. The Tatum thing you could have talked me into. It'd be like, hey, this guy's 24. He's going to figure it out. Okay. Horford seemed like he was done. Like second month of the season, it seemed like this was a guy on his last legs, basically, and he was about to enter that DeAndre Jordan, Blake Griffin kind of, this guy's now going to bounce around for the next five years. But his days as a playoff performer behind him, the stuff he was doing defensively, jumping out on guards and just the way he can defensively and low post by himself, it was all the stuff he was doing four or five years ago. I didn't think he had it in him. So now he's become this

crucial piece of the team. This was like, you know, they basically got him to get rid of Kemba's contract, right? Anything from him was a bonus. But now it's like a whole other level. I don't know. I'm too excited, Rizzo. You got to put the water on me.

No, no. Look, I think we talked about this team obviously so much just to see i think you go okay maybe they just have that kind of personality maybe they just kind of have that personality that they don't have enough fuck you in them they don't have those things that you just love out of players and you know remember how we used to be like it's awesome when they lose to the nets and they all go and make out with kairi right after the game you're like what what is that about but it also speaks to despite what you think of kairi he's very very popular among other players but you kind of need to figure out a way um to you know have some some different options i think on your front line defensively and if you're going to get something from horford that that changes some things. But I think about BAM in Miami, their best option is still going to probably be Rob Williams. Grant has been terrific in some of the defensive stuff they've tried to do.

And I know they've mentioned on the broadcast, and you can see it too, where Rob Williams plays the opposing power forward, hoping he's not a great stretching the floor type of offensive player so that he can roll more and be the help defender at the rim. And that's changed some of the defensive stuff that they've done and certainly the numbers that have spiked. And then I thought today, even against Brooklyn, I'm like, oh, he's going to go up against Bruce Brown. And Bruce is more of a perimeter guy. And what I thought was kind of great about today's game is that they actually give up a ton of points because Durant's cooking. And some other guys hit some shots, obviously, for him. I mean, Durant

just misses a month and then comes back and looks like an MVP. It was unbelievable. Yeah. No rest at all. All right. We're talking about we like it. It's awesome. Do you still think they're winning the East? Do you sit here today and say they are or they have a chance to?

Because those are two different things. You think there's five teams. I'm going to Cleveland's a nice story, but I got we got to write them off. I think as an actual team that can win these, I think they could be tough for a series. It'll be a nice get your feet wet all that stuff, but they're not going to have enough. They're not going to have enough perimeter

scoring to hang at the end. It's too much Garland. They try to being Laverte. The numbers weren't great. He's missed games on top of everything else. Marketingkinen's had a better stretch. I love that team. I love watching them. I just don't know that they're going to scare me offensively in a close playoff game at the end.

The thought of them winning three straight rounds seems far-fetched. We've got five teams in order. Miami, who I think is going to get the one seed. I think Philly knew it, which is why they threw away that game last night with Harden. Miami's 43-22. They have 12 of their last 17 at home.

Right? So you figure, barring injury, they're going to get the one. Philly's going to, Philly's 39-24. Milwaukee's 40-25 with 11 of their last 17 on the road. Chicago's the one I think that falls out of the top four, just because it's, it's, you know, they just not healthy enough yet. And they have 10 of their next 12 on the road. And then Boston, who is two games behind Chicago in the last calm 10 of their last 60 on the road. But honestly, it doesn't seem like it matters where they play at this point.

I think Boston has a chance to get to the three seed, which is important for a variety of reasons, mainly because that allows you to play Cleveland around one, which I would just rather play Cleveland than Chicago. If, uh, if I don't know who's coming out of there and then, then it's Philly the next round potentially. Right. And then, you know, the other piece with, with this whole Eastern thing is I don't want to play Brooklyn around one. Do you, from what you saw today? And it's like you can give the one seed, you can end up with Brooklyn in the 1-8 matchup. So I don't know, is there going to be

some jockeying? And how do you even know who's going to be 7 or 8? Because Brooklyn's probably going to be in the 7-8 matchup. So Brooklyn's looming as this booby prize potentially for somebody that could win the one seat. Sucks.

If you run through it, Boston has the sixth toughest schedule the rest of the way. I'd have a really hard time being dismissive of Milwaukee. But Milwaukee has the toughest schedule of all 30 teams remaining. And they're now, I think, 29-8 with all three guys. When Drew Middleton, who went off off today and janice all play together they're like okay because when the other thing too is like you look through all the top teams and who gets to complain every single fan base gets to complain about not having their guys i mean between miami butler's missed 20 lowry's missed 17 bands missed 25 and they're still going to be the one seed. You got Brooklyn. KD's missed 27.

Kyrie's missed 39 games. Milwaukee, Giannis has missed 11. Middleton, 12. Drew, 13. So they've actually been healthier because you hit a lot of Milwaukee like, oh, we don't have Brooke Lopez. At this point, the Brooke Lopez numbers don't count in comparison to the other ones. Phoenix is going to miss their most important player for two months.

Draymond, we have no idea about. So Memphis has been relatively healthy if we're trying to bring out to how many teams are actual title contenders. And Boston, between Tatum and Brown, that's only 19 missed games. Boston may be benefiting too from just having way more continuity than these other teams. And then you throw in Chicago, who you take out their defensive backcourt. They're a mess now defensively. I don't like their defensive matchups against bigger wings. I've been saying it now for a while. And I think after the most recent loss, are the Bulls 0-13 against the top three teams in each conference or something like that?

They don't beat anybody really good. They don't. Yeah. And it's hard for me when you get into the playoffs. As much as I love the Chicago story, Bill, when you get into the playoffs and you have that kind of blemish on your resume, it's a great story, but I don't know how serious I can take you. So I think three is totally in play for them,

whether it's for Boston, meaning Milwaukee, and then Philadelphia, it's still going to win a ton of games here with Harden. One thing I like with this Boston team, we always talk about malleable rosters with playoff teams, right? Boston can go big. If you look at it, against Memphis in the fourth quarter,

and Jalen wasn't in the game, but they were playing Time Lord and Horford and Grant Williams with Tatum and Smart, right? They supersized and it was effective. They were doing it today against Brooklyn, where they had Brown and Tatum, Smart, and then Time Lord and Horford.

And if you have Curry and Kyrie out there for the Nets, at some point, one of those guys have to guard somebody. Plus, Bruce Brown is short too. So I was watching that game today thinking, ironically, the guy that the Nets need to handle Tatum is Ben Simmons, who has the size to do it, who's, if his head's right, one of the four or five best defensive players in the league, and yet we have no idea if we're going to see him. But I do think the Celtics match up pretty well with Brooklyn. Philly will be a different story because of the Embiid Harden thing and all the free throws

and all that stuff. But really encouraging stuff. The Celtics thing, you could feel it come in the last few weeks, started to look better and better. And then these last two games where just something feels different from Tatum. Do you think there's anything with him being the all-star starter

and that kind of last sign of, you know, now you're really there. Now you're on the top level. Guys are looking at it a little differently because I feel like coming out of that, there's a different level of confidence for him. Maybe I'm overthinking it. You love that stuff. I'm dismissive of it. I'm not sure who's right.

Yeah, we'll never know. I'm not saying you're wrong about it. I just, you know, think about when the streak started too. Like, oh, okay, Miami's missing all their guys. You know, Charlotte's missing. I mean, Hayward's been missing. But, you know what I mean? Like, in the beginning of the streak, they put this winning streak together. You go, Hey, any nice positivity

from this team means something considering how bad it felt when they're below 540 games into this deal. But I still was nitpicking it to myself because I'd watch the game. He's like, ah, this team was missing this guy. This team was missing this like, all right, cool. You won five in a row. All right. The defensive numbers, we thought you'd be better, but it's not going to matter unless you're just a really less. They were so predictable and so inept late offensively. It was tough to keep watching. And I can't think

of KOC had a great tweet today. He's like, you know, look, the Celtics are the only team to ever do this, but to be so unwatchable and then to now look like a team you're worried about at any stage of the playoffs doesn't happen very often and udoka and the players deserve a lot of credit because usually you figure okay well they're just

not buying into the coach he can't change their personality this is who these guys are it's a different coach the same stuff it's even worse maybe than it was with stevens and for that to turn like it did in just the span of a month is really impressive yeah the toughness that he brought and all the histrionics from the first part of the season, we're like, what's up with this guy? He's calling the guys every other week. It seems like it works. Like there's an edge to this team now. That's pretty exciting. And we, you know, the other thing is great home crowd. Like my dad who called me, he was all excited after. And he was like, that's one of the best crowds we've had, you know, since the KG era.

It's definitely a top three, top four for him. There was the Isaiah playoff game and some other ones. But the energy that Kyrie brings that crowd because he's such a fun villain at this point, on top of just how incredible Tatum was playing. And then everyone playing hard and the physicality. And I just think out of nowhere, this team is really growing on the fans.

So you think of like the East where we have Philly and Chicago and Boston, three of the top five, those playoff crowds are going to be unbelievable, right? I mean, those are going to be three of the best playoff crowds we have. And all of them are going to be in the mix round one, round two,

potentially. So, um, I got to add one. one i gotta add one thing on the kairi deal because the first three minutes of the fourth quarter when durant wasn't in kairi at that point was like all right fuck this i'm gonna show you guys yeah and he hit a layup and then he was a mess for a bunch of possessions in a row and then there was one where they went to bring horford over for horford to have to switch on a screen by LaMarcus. And Tatum was originally assigned to Kyrie and

Kyrie waved him back down and was like, no. And at that point I was like, the Nets are going to lose. Well, then he had the thing after about, he says about the crowd, like it's a, they're like a scorned lover or whatever he said.'s like nobody wanted you to stay at kairi it was no no you had an entire city ready to drive you to the airport nobody wanted you here this is not the girlfriend wondering what happened to the awesome catch at this stage this is the last call hookup that you regret and you're like, please, please, like, I don't actually want to hang out. Yeah. Well, he's still really good. And there's some stuff with him and Curry together that I think the more KD plays, there's a couple of times when, you know, they were trying to trap KD at the top and the ball moved. And then all of a sudden Seth Curry's just wide open in the corner. When

they figure out the geometry of all that stuff, playing Curry and Kyrie together, it's gonna be a tough team to play. But I think they need Simmons back. They seem too small against the Celtics today. I want to talk about the Warriors. Let's take a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video.

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host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. Golden State. I went to the Lakers-Golden State game on Saturday night. LeBron was unbelievable. 56 points. It was like a quiet 56. It was one of those you look up and you're like, God, he's got 24? I didn't realize he had that many. He just

kept going, kept going, kept going. I mean, who knows with that Laker team? I don't know. We're going to talk about them a little bit later. With Golden State though, 16 and 14 since January 1st, they looked like a mess in person. I don't know what's up with Klay. Klay looked pretty good before the All-Star break. Looked like the arrow was pointing up. And then since the All-Star break, I was sitting with House because House was here. We were kind of struck by how skinny Clay looked and just that he doesn't seem like this guy who could guard every kind of

perimeter guy before he got hurt a couple of times. Just seemed like a skinnier and more of a finesse guy. But the big takeaway for me was the lack of Draymond. And I think with Draymond, we default to the defense. And you think like, oh, they're missing Draymond. And I think with Draymond, we default to the defense, you know, and you think like, oh, they're missing Draymond and his defense. I think they miss his offense just as much because they don't really have a point guard. You watch them, it's like six shooting guards and Kavon Looney and Kaminga. But there's no kind of straw that stirs the drink that I could see because, you know, people think Curry's a point guard. He's really not. He's better off the ball and he's, you know, he dribbles the ball up,

but really he's a two guard. They really miss Draymond's playmaking. And it left me thinking, Russillo, as weird as this sounds, is Draymond short-term more indispensable than Steph? Because I feel like they have so many guards, they could replace 80% of Steph's scoring. But they literally cannot replace what Draymond does in any way. There's nobody that they have. So at the very least, I feel like he's just as indispensable as Steph is.

That's a pretty big statement. Thank you. I'm not ready to go there. There are a lot of numbers that would back up what you said. They were 28 and six with Draymond. They're 13 and 12 without them. They're two and eight in their last 10. If you look at their defensive splits, you go January to February, so the month of January. And this is still Draymond's last game was January 9th. So they still held up somewhat defensively for the second half of the month in those games.

They were third defensively. And since February 1st, they've absolutely fallen apart. They're 23rd in defensive rating. They've also, you know, Porter fell off a cliff, and that's why he was available. Gary Payton wasn't available. Wiggins, how about these Wiggins numbers? He's

made nine free throws since February 1st, and he doesn't even get to the free throw line. Okay. I mean, like people will look back and say, Wiggins started in the all-star game. Like what happened?

What happened there? Um, and that was cause just go bear got screwed in the vote. Uh, Damian Lee's out of the rotation. The Elise is out of the rotation. So there's a bunch of other sides of, uh,

it would always played, I think six minutes and then, you know, beginning of the year, he's fresh. He looks good. I was like, wow, this is great. Iguodala's played, I think, six minutes. And beginning of the year he's fresh. He looks good. I was like, wow, this is great. I think he's played about six minutes since January 20th. So everything's kind of falling apart collectively. But I thought last night was a perfect example because I was at the game, the Clippers game

on Thursday, and I was like, is LeBron slowing down a little bit? And then I look up, he's got like 20 at the half. I go, okay, I feel stupid. And then I was going to kind of focus in on it again on again on Saturday game I still think defensively what Draymond does because they don't really have anything else like they couldn't keep Looney in the Lakers game so I mean it just weren't gonna happen and to not have Wiseman to not be able to pick up any other thing this is a team that I think is just beaten up and I also think Steph is exhausted from all the stuff that he does on offense and

the fact that every team sells out against him to do whatever they can. And then Clay, who shot it really well last month, I agree with you. Seeing it up close, he just isn't moving great. And they were hunting him out in that Lakers game. LeBron was trying to get Clay switched on to him, which is not usually something you never went Clay hunting when he was healthy defensively. I was bummed out by Clay yesterday. clay hunting when he was healthy defensively. I was bummed out by clay yesterday. So I know he was sick after the all-star break. I'm not writing them off by any means, but this was a guy who was one of the best defensive guys. Yeah. From what I saw yesterday, you know, this might be a long haul. He hasn't played in two and a half years before last month. And on top of it is redundant to a

lot of other guys they have. And I think the biggest takeaway I had yesterday watching them was just, it's just a lot of jump shots. You mentioned the free throws. Nobody gets to the free throw line on the whole team. If you're just looking at all the guys yesterday, Curry's probably the only guy who even averages more than four free throw attempts. He's probably five, but a lot of, a lot of jump shots. They're not going in. Second quarter, pool makes them. All of a sudden, you're feeling good.

Then it's jump shots again. And then they have this Kaminga thing where they have to play him. I mean, he's breathtaking. You have to play him. But he's 15 years old. He barely knows what he's doing. So you have this thing where it's like this toy

that you have to play with, but half the time, I mean, he was really lost on defense. You could see it in person. Then he'll do three amazing things in a row and you're like, hey, you got to play. So I think if I'm Golden State, I'm punting on the two seed. I'm trying to get Kaminga the reps.

I'm trying to figure out what I have from Clay these next couple of weeks. Because you look at, you know, they're a half game behind Memphis now. But then Utah's kind of, Utah's like, what, two games back in the loss column now. And Utah could potentially jump on. And if I'm going state, I don't even care.

I just, I'm saving miles on Steph. I want to know what I have with Kaminga. And I want to know what I have with Kamingo and I want to know what I have with Clay and then I hope Draymond can come back and be healthy but I the days of them being like we got to get the two seed like I I think that's done I think you you you set that one adrift what do you think well Steph backs up everything you just said he said it he's like I don't care about the seed and that's pretty much all you have to worry about I mean Utah's hilarious Utah got the Monday night football treatment because they get smacked by a Pelicans team which you could argue since February 1st is playing some of the best basketball in the NBA I mean they won by like 30

it was all right so but why I have too many thoughts going at once i'm too excited new orleans is number four in offensive efficiency at number three in defensive efficiency since february 1st that's insane all right and they're only nine and four so if the record were a little bit better but the pelicans smash a utah team and then i start seeing people like oh utah this team they were nine of their last 10 going into that right they're right they're absolutely scorching they have their guys back which is why there's that big utah dip because they just had too long of a stretch without your two best players kind of being in and out of the lineup at the time utah's still really good so i i'd agree like look the draymond thing is starting

to feel a little bit like kg 2009 which you and i reference all the all the time. It was like, hey, when's he coming back? When's he coming back? I mean, how many times I've read about full contact with Draymond and some of this stuff, and, you know, it's a back injury. If he's not back. Playing three on three. He's playing three on three.

It's good. We're taking our time. I see a lot of guys. I've seen a lot of guys that aren't great playing three on three, by the way. Right. Three on three is a lot easier than full court, just for the record.

Yeah, look. If he's not 100%, I think they're a cross-off. I just don't think they could win the title if he's not 100%. I don't even think... Do you think even that's a crazy statement? Not at all.

I think what was impressive is that they had a collective group of role players all playing awesome it felt like at the same time and by the way pool is unbelievable i mean that's that's the one highlight and kaminga dunks from here and there the lakers putting it on them because i i actually thought you probably thought the same thing based on a tweet but i think it was like 54, 44 Golden State. And I'm watching it going, you can, you can smell when the Lakers quit in a game. Like I thought,

oh, here we go again, especially after seeing it so many other times the last couple of weeks. And to their credit, finally, they fought back and they, they did come back in that Dallas game, but it's still a loss,

but it's kind of like Golden State had this collection of players that all played really well all at the same time. And then they still held on defensively when Draymond went down in the beginning and then you just start leaking and they're leaking in all sorts of different spots. But if Draymond does come back and is healthy, Klay will look better in April

than he does now, I would imagine. I still have hope. I still have hope for him because I would say if everything's right, you're going to take him as serious as anybody. But the Draymond thing, I agree with you. If he's not right or not able to go, then it's a... I don't know what would happen.

I mean, Dallas is a much better team now. Denver could be getting reinforcements here. So it's a serious concern if this is the version we're going to see. I think we're going to see some incredible jockeying in the last week of the season with who wants to play who,

because you know, the Dallas numbers against Utah are pretty discouraging, right? In Denver, if I'm Denver and I don't think Draymond's a hundred percent, I want to play gold state. Like I, the,

you know, gold state didn't do anything at the trade deadline to address a couple of playoff situations in these rounds. And I don't really fully understand it because I, to me, they're not big enough unless they are really convinced that Wiseman can come back from, but what we saw from Wiseman last year,

I don't feel like he's necessarily reliable in a playoff series, even if he's healthy. So I just think they have too many guards and not enough size. and, uh, and they might've been the rabbit team this year. And I look at, you know, right now, if the season ended today, we, you know, I was talking about the grenade that, uh, poor Miami could win the one seat and have to play Brooklyn. Phoenix could win the one seat and have to play the Clippers in round one, which I would not want. I just wouldn't want to play that team as my round one victim. That team's tough.

I don't know if Paul George comes back, but there's been a lot of Kawhi buzz lately. And I don't know. That team is really well coached. They know who they are, and you're not going to roll over them in four. And that might be who Phoenix has to play. And now we don't know when does Chris come back?

I don't know. Then you're looking at Golden State. So right now, if it ended today, it would be Phoenix Clippers, Memphis, Minnesota. Hold up. Just for sake of error, Memphis losing today to Houston just as we were taping this. Now

Golden State's percentage points ahead so it's golden state's back to the two after losing it earlier today but i'm with no i no keep that keep that in the pod because i didn't even realize they lost to houston yeah houston finally happened i didn't even i didn't even look to see what happened in that game oh my god houston had one still in the two yeah i does anyone anyone care about a Houston nugget? Nope. Keep it moving. Never mind.

Well, I still think Memphis gets the two, but we could have Golden State-Denver as the 3-6 and then Utah-Dallas as the 4-5, but then Utah could... So there's no way to know who the fuck's playing who. I will say, if I'm like Dallas or Denver, who am I afraid of? Am I afraid of anybody other than Phoenix?

I'm ready to play any of these other teams in this whole thing. And, you know, we could see it could just be a Luka three rounds in a row or a Jokic three rounds in a row. That might just be how the West plays out. I think the East is better. The teams are just higher quality except for Phoenix. Yeah, both Dallas and Denver since February 1st. I mean, throw Utah

in here. They're basically, all three of those teams are top 10 in offense and defense. So it's not some weird, fluky thing. You had Luka missing the game against Sacramento, and then Dinwiddie brought him back. And as much as I think Dinwiddie can be frustrating to play with,

when he's allowed to just kind of go loose, you're like, oh, wait, this is why this guy gets paid by teams, because he can light it up. And then not having to worry about all the Przinga shit, I think it just helps them. And they've in-shape Luka. I think they're a really well-prepped defensive team. When you talk to other people about Dallas, you'll say,

they do a really good job of almost like a quarterback facing multiple looks defensively. It's something that Dallas does a better job than other teams. You're just seeing these numbers. This was a team that you go, Lucas, they're going to go five out. I don't have to watch them. Finney Smith

is going to be over there. Hardaway Jr. is going to be over there. Jalen comes off the bench. Powell is going to have some nice dunks, but they don't really stop anybody. Those Luka playoff series, I still feel like are worth bringing up once a month because they were that special both losses against the Clippers,

but now they're defending at a level that I didn't really expect. Dallas, Denver shouldn't be afraid of anybody. I always thought too with Denver, do they really defend the way you need them to uh and they have they have now for a while so it's it's really bunched up there I want to stay on your Clippers thing though like I get it lose a terrific coach they're well coached but if I'm a one seed I don't I'm not worried about the 500 Clippers man what if Kawhi comes back though?

Well, okay. That's a different conversation, but I'm sure all the Kawhi information will be clear and concise and definitive. It's true. Yeah. I was factoring in at least Kawhi and maybe Kawhi and Paul George. Although the more I talk to people, like he tore the UCL. So it's, and they're like, oh, it's doing better with rest. It's like, how is it better with rest? He tore it. I just don't understand the information about it. It doesn't make sense to me. There was something on Twitter, I think yesterday, about Paul George is shooting with his dominant hand for the first time in a month or whatever. And you think like, wait, he wasn't shooting with his dominant hand for the last month. Like that sounds terrible. So who knows? I, uh, with lasting a golden state, they lost eight of their last 10, which we mentioned here were the losses, Dallas twice,

Utah, the Lakers, the Knicks, Minnesota, the Clippers and Denver Denver it's not a good sign man those are those are just over and over again losing to either good or really good teams and one mediocre team so I think it's

time for concern and I think if I was a Warriors fan I would really be confused why this team sat the trade deadline out I don't understand it like they did nothing and I know they have a high luxury tax but I I don't understand it. They did nothing. And I know they have a high luxury tax, but I just don't get it. Well, I think that they probably thought they were going to have

these guys back. And I don't know if that's their own misinformation to the rest of us. And maybe, I don't know. But I mean, the Wiseman updates are comical at this point. And as you said, to ask Wiseman to be like, hey, can you step in and be a top eight guy in a playoff series for a team with big aspirations? That's a lot to ask a guy that played three games in college two years ago, barely played last year, and still has suited up this year. And as much as I don't like when people are like, oh, he's a bust. It's like, well, let's see if he can play or not before we can do that. Even if you love him. And I still think he does things physically on the court at times

where I'm like, there's not really many human beings that walk the planet that can do some of the stuff that guy can do on a basketball court. But to ask him to do it at a playoff level and remember rotations and that kind of stuff that these guys always screw up, it's almost stupid to have that kind of hope for him. And the Kaminga piece too, as great as he's, you know, as talented

as he is as a rookie, putting him in a playoff series still makes me nervous. And I think as we head to the last, I don't know, 15 to 17 games, you're looking for identity in teams that know who they are. And Brooklyn is in flux, but I have a sense of what their identity is. Boston knows their identity as well as anyone. Utah knows who they are. And Brooklyn is in flux, but I have a sense of what their identity is.

Boston knows their identity as well as anyone. Utah knows who they are. You're going down the line. And Golden State, the team I saw yesterday, it really seemed like they were struggling. And I know Draymond's important, but I don't know if he fixes all of this at the same time. And it might be one of those things

where the roster's just weird. Like bringing Klay back, Klay, I would argue, was the last thing this roster needed. As much as I like Clay and as much as you like Clay, the last thing they needed was another two guard. They have a million two guards. Moody came out yesterday. Moody

looked good. They're so loaded at that position. I honestly think would Jordan Poole be all-star seems, but what imagine if Jordan pool had his own team and was some shitty team that, you know,

he's like legitimately good. Yeah. I'm with you. He's filthy, man. Well, it's funny. Cause they're in the,

you know, they're in kind of an awkward situation with clay. It's, it's a little like where the Lakers are with Westbrook, where we keep waiting for them to shove them to the bench. And it's like, you can't, he's Russell Westbrook, where we keep waiting for them to shove him to the bench. And it's like, you can't. He's Russell Westbrook. I'm not there.

No. No, with the Warriors, I'm saying with Clay, he's going to get the benefit of the doubt. He's going to get the benefit of the doubt. But Poole is playing way better than him right now. And at some point, they're going to have to figure that piece out. Because Poole's really good. And then what'd he do this summer?

Like Poole might be, is he getting paid this summer? How does that work with him? Or he's afraid he's a first round pick or they'd have to think about an extension for him this summer. So I don't know. I, I, this team has a lot of pieces and I'm not sure they fit together. We're gonna take a break and we're going to go into detail about the Lakers. What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend that powers your scale with no preset spending limit. More cash on hand to grow your business with up to 55 interest-free days.

And the ability to reach further with access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. We're going to talk about the Lakers. We've been batting around ideas for this all weekend. The big question to me, the Davis trade, and winning a title, which is the whole point of a trade, Rusillo,

you just want to win a title. The KG Celtics, they only won one title. Guess what? All of it was worth it. They were in the mix for a few years, and they won in 2008. That was the only one they won, but everything was worth it because that's the whole point you win the title. If you're the Lakers, the point is to win the title.

But when you actually look at the last 12 years and the amount of draft picks they use just to get LeBron and Davis and all the ones going to New Orleans, we're talking about a decade of assets that they gave up basically for this one bubble season title that, by the way, their fans didn't even get to enjoy because there were no fans

at the games. But this is all, you know, going back from really that Nash-Howard season, which how awful that's now disappointing that season was.

Everybody's hurt. Kobe tears his Achilles right at the end of it. Dwight Howard leaves. The Nash trade doesn't work out. That's multiple picks plus Bynum. Then they hit rock bottom. They draft Randall. He breaks his leg immediately. They draft D'Angelo Russell. He doesn't really work out. They draft Ingram second. They get the second pick the following year. They take Lonzo over Tatum. They let Randall leave. They trade Russell away to open up cap space

because they had blown it on 140 million of Mozgov and Dang. So you run through all these picks just to get LeBron. Now you have to make LeBron happy. You make this Davis trade. And these picks go on until 2025. And I guess my question for you is, they won the title. I feel like it was all worth it, but it's weird to say, like you basically have had one good season out of the last 10 and the next five are looking, looking probably not awesome. So was it worth it?

So it's Ingram, it's Lonzo, it's Hart in a move that moves some picks around there it's the pick that was DeAndre Hunter it's a 20 wait hold that hold that thought okay it was the pick that was DeAndre Hunter but Darius Garland was the pick right after that that's right he went fifth Hunter went fourth so you could argue that was let's say they wanted to take Garland there just for fun I don't know do you think think they would? He's a clutch guy. So you think the Lakers would have taken him? Ingram, Lonzo, Darius Garland, and then multiple first-round picks and swaps.

Josh Hart. Plus Josh Hart for Davis. It's a lot. I felt like it was too much of the time. And this crazy thing is on the... I know you did. And it was unprotected in a swap in 2023.

And then 2024 is unprotected. And they added a Lee Griffin ad. I love when these guys, because I would just love to know on the phone when you go, all right, we've got the deal. We're getting these players. And we're getting these picks.

And they're unprotected and I'm throwing in a swap. And oh, by the way, if I don't like the 2024 draft, can I just have it be unprotected the next year? Right. And that's what they have.

And so to be fair, though, there was a lot of do they have enough to get Anthony Davis in comparison to other people when it was happening at the time? I feel like we can't be too revisionist history saying they got ripped off because Anthony Davis at his best is a top five player in this league.

He is no worse than top 10. If you want to push back on my top five, fine. He's no worse than top 10. He's still not 30. I think he turns 29 this week. Yeah. And it's a mess this season. But to win a title, which is what it's all about,

to hand the keys over to an agency for LeBron and have LeBron make it. There's a lot that goes into this that feels gross and it feels like, holy shit, we're giving up a decade of assets. When you frame it that way, it makes me at least process, wait, is this actually the wrong way to do it? But knowing they already have a title in their back pocket, I can't say

they did it wrong. There's plenty of other teams that try to do crazy shit. I mean, think about what the Clippers will have given up and how much they've actually gotten out of Kawhi and Paul George and had them both extend and max those guys and they still don't play. I'm going to give the listeners

the timeline really quick. They win the 2010 title. Next year, they lose to Dallas. They get swept. Phil Jackson leaves. Winter 2011, the CP3 trade gets vetoed. Right? That's a big fork in the road for them.

It would have been Gasol and Odom and Picks, and they get Chris Paul. They trade Odom to Dallas. He goes into a tailspin. So they lose that asset anyway. 2012 lockout season, 41 and 25. They lose to OKC in round two. Hire Mike Brown as the coach.

Or Mike Brown's still the coach. Summer 2012, they trade for Dwight. Basically buying him. That was really the trade for a year. Basically buying him. That was really the trade for a year of Dwight who's coming out back surgery. They trade two first round picks for Nash, 2013 and then one that rolls over

to 2018. I forgot some of this stuff. They fired Mike Brown after five games in the 2012-13 season. Five games, he's out. Mike D'Antoni comes in. They go 45-37. Kobe blows out his Achilles.

They get swept by the Spurs. And then from that point on, 27-55, 21-61, 17-65. 2015, Aldridge won't take the meeting with them. 2016, KD doesn't even meet with them. KD wants to leave OKC, wants to go to a big city and have a new situation. He's like, I'm not even meeting with these guys. 2016, Mozgov, four for 64, Dang, four for 72, Clarkson, four for 50. They hire Luke Walton. Kobe retires. 26 and 56 get the second pick again. Magic and Palenka take over. And then they put the LeBron plan in motion. So they have to sacrifice

Russell and Randall just for the cap space. They think they're getting LeBron and Paul George. Paul George doesn't come. The reason all this is worth it, because I go back to that 2016 when they don't get the KD meeting. That's rock bottom at that point. They have to spend all of the assets they possibly can to get LeBron and to convince him, if you come here, we will do whatever it takes to have a championship team around you, which leads to Davis, which leads to Ingram, Lonzo, the number four pick in 2019, Josh Hart, 2022 unprotected, 2024 unprotected, pick swaps in 23 and 25. They win the title, but they had to do it because what does it do, Rosillo? It restores the credibility of the Lakers, which is the only thing that mattered. But you had to restore the credibility because of how bad you were from 2011 to 2017. You remember reading all that

stuff? That's when Jeannie Buss was interviewed during the game. It was like, anybody that doesn't want to play with Kobe Bryant's a loser. I left out the two-year Kobe Bryant contract extension for $30 million a year. Remember they killed their cap space, he was like, this guy's a legend.

Which, you know, I get it, and it worked out because they got draft picks. But yeah, they rode the Kobe thing for a while. And it was painfully obvious that other guys didn't want to play with Kobe. They didn't want to play with him. They didn't want to play with him. And then the reason I brought up that Lakers-Kobe contract in the past

on my own pod is that their selling point, like, as everybody goes, this is a terrible contractual decision. Why are you doing this? And it's like, because the Lakers take care of their stars, which I think is a great thing to remember when we look at what's going to happen here with LeBron decision on, you know, LeBron doesn't think he's like LeBron's sitting there thinking like, what do you think? I'm coming back cheap. Like that's not going to happen. I don't, I don't think so. I don't don't know maybe maybe there's some way to to work around it um but when and i know we're going to talk to ethan about this later on i think the question you're asking so let me ask you the question like it was it so bad that you go we've got to completely

pivot away from what we're doing, and if this means we're going to do something that... No team would ever say, hey, it'll be awesome. Let's bring in a star and let him and let the agency do whatever they want. Because that's the criticism now as things start coming full circles. They struggle this season, which I still think deserves some pushback. Because if Anthony Davis was right, I'm not even saying the best version of Anthony Davis, but the better version of him that we're used to seeing, this team's still a

top 16, even with the disastrous Westbrook part of it, and they'd probably be more likely to bench Westbrook if that were the case and let him run the second unit, because I think that's the only value you would ever get out of him, because the guy can still just drive the hole all night long, because he's a terrible space player.

But do you look at all of that and go, they shouldn't have done this? Because I don't think that's what you're saying. That's not what I'm saying. But it still feels like this deal with the devil is extensive. That's not fair. But it feels like, hey, we're going to do something

that we know deep down we really don't want to do because it has been this bad. People were laughing at the organization. The LaMarcus Aldridge thing was like, wait, what? He won't meet with the Lakers? Right? You think back, since 2010,

how many coaches do you think the Lakers have had? Actual coaches that they hired and gave multi-year contracts to. Starting with Phil Jackson. So five more after Phil Jackson. Mike Brown, Mike D'Antoni, Byron Scott, Luke Walt, and Frank Vogel. And Vogel's about to get bounced after this year.

They traded their 2013 and 18 picks. They traded their 2015 number two pick, Russell. They traded their number seven 2014 pick, Randall. They traded their 2019 number two pick Russell. They traded their number seven, 2014 pick Randall. They traded their 2019 number four pick in the AD trade. And now they coming up, they won't have two picks and they have swaps for the other ones. It's just an incredible amount of assets just to restore the illusion of your credibility. And I think the only thing I would say about the AD trade, which I think they had to do I think they gave up too much

I'll never understand why Lonzo had to be in it that was like on top of all the picks like to put in Ingram, Lonzo and the number four pick it just seemed like so much at the time here's the real problem for them I thought AD was like a sure thing you know

like the same way we would think of like Giannis or somebody like that now, right. Or Embiid or Jokic or this guy was, we all felt like was one of the five to seven best players in the league about to hit his prime, right. He was 25 heading in 26. You're getting this guy who the three years before the trade was basically

28 and 12 every, every night. And then you look at the guy in the Lakers who the three years before the trade was basically 28 and 12 every night. And then you look at the guy in the Lakers the last three years, he's 24 and nine. You look at his missed games year by year, 18, 15, 14, 21, 7, 7, 26, 10, 36, 26 and counting. I think the guy they thought they were getting isn't the guy they totally got. And that's more disturbing to me. I'm just saying that's more disturbing to me than selling your soul for the title or whatever you're going to say. They thought they were getting this guy who was like Wilt, Shaq, Kareem and he just hasn't been.

I have to correct something on LaMarcus Aldridge real quick. He did meet. He did meet with the Lakers. Yeah, he did. He did meet. And he didn't really, the quote was, he didn't gel with Kobe. And then this is one of the all-time great July free agency tweets. It said, Aldridge was floored in a good way by Houston's analytics on court projections in their presentation. Yeah.

Not so with the Lakers. Yeah. That was Mike Bresnahan who had that tweet because I'll never forget that tweet. So as I was thinking about LaMarcus, I'm like, no, no, the point was that he met. And he met, he didn't like it. And then KD the next year

didn't even bother meeting with him. Didn't, didn't. Okay, so cleaning it up there. All right. Totally with you on AD, but going back, would you not have wanted AD going to the Celtics? You know? Yeah, I'm with you.

I love the guy. Yeah, I just, now he's like in year 10, right? He's been in the playoffs four times out of his first nine years. Might not be in the playoffs this year. So you're talking about a guy, first 10 years of his career, who I voted for NBA Top 75,

who might miss the playoffs 60% of his career so far. And it's just like, you look at the other guys in the league who are really good year after year. Like Giannis is never missing the playoffs if he's healthy. I don't care who's on his team. Neither is Jokic. We're finding out this year, Jokic, like it literally doesn't matter who's on his team. He's going to go 48, 34. You just give him four guys. He's fine. Same thing for Luka. He's unbelievable. I know. Luka's going to go 47 and 35, 49 and 33 every year if he's healthy.

And I thought Davis was like that and he cannot stay on the court. And sometimes it's bad luck, but then other times, like I thought he came in too heavy this year. I didn't really love the way he played, you know, leading up to the injury this year in general. And you think like this is a guy who's supposed to be at his absolute prime.

And I don't know, would you put him in the top 10 players anymore? Because I wouldn't. I think durability has to be a piece of that. No, I can't. You can't. Yeah, no, at this point, you can't. Even though if I think the right version of him, which I still think is kind of wire, you know, like how come this didn't work or how come they didn't do this?

And you're like, okay, but if 80 were there and it wasn't this bad version of them, you're still talking about a team that, you know, maybe having a chance feels aggressive, but who knows? I mean,

who knows who has a chance right now? You don't know with Phoenix and Phoenix for, you know, the first four months of the season. I'm like, are we not really acknowledging how steady this team is and that they're better and that they have a better frontline option after really missing out and having depth there last year? century effort from Giannis to have it happen that I almost felt like, oh, here we go. Like the people just tempering their expectations with them when it felt

like they were kind of clearly the steadiest of the whole time. And so now you can't pencil them in. Same thing with Golden State. We'll see what happens with Ja when there's actual real expectations. I don't think Ja is going to be afraid of anything, by the way. But it's still a younger group. History isn't necessarily on those teams' side. People aren't going to like Utah in the playoffs.

Dallas and Denver might be a little bit easier to defend as you move along because of the one you know so even if ad my point is this is i'm not saying the lakers have been a one seat if ad is right because the westbrook part has been so disastrous i still think if those two guys have been healthy you can't completely write them off and which is what i think people are kind of doing now where you're like, well, wait, the guy doesn't even play and you're acting like

he's out there and this is the product. I don't think there's ever been a 12-year stretch like this for a franchise in the NBA. A continuous 12-year stretch where it's like

rock bottom over and over again. Basically starting with that Mavericks sweep in 2011. You go all the way through to this year, which is another rock bottom year. And that Thursday night, which we both went to, watching LeBron try to figure out how to distance himself from everybody else on the team during the game

was like fascinating. He would leave the timeout. And we've seen, I mean, I've been going to LeBron games for 20 years. I've probably seen him play in person 50 times at this point. You know, when he's locked in, he's fast walking,

he's talking to the refs, he's talking to teammates, and he's, and then there's like the, I'm fucking done with these shitheads kind of demeanor that he'll get. And he would come out of the timeout and he just walked to the opposite side of the court, like just to get as far away from everybody as possible.

But you think like if you're a Laker fan these 12 years, you had one fun season that really right before the pandemic hit where there was real momentum and you and I were on that podcast and I've been like, wow, the Lakers, this is a team to watch. Now you have no fans for the playoff run.

Other than that, the other 11 seasons, like LeBron's been there four years. One season's been fun. Three seasons have not. You know? And then all the ones before that weren't fun either.

I just think it's one of the weirdest things to just lay out and do the homework and take the notes. You're like, Jesus Christ. Fucking weird mess this was.

But they got a title. But look at Brooklyn. Every single team would have done what they did. And they got those three guys together for 16 games in less than two years. Look at Boston with Kyrie and Hayward and Horford. That could not have worked out

worse. They didn't make the finals. Everything was building toward like, we got Tatum and Brown and all the, and, and nope. Right. I mean, look,

it doesn't work out. Look at what the Knicks have been doing all the years. The Knicks, you're like, okay, they clean the deck. They're finally going to get their guys. And it's like,

nope, we're getting a Mari Stoudemire, his niece. I'm going to give you 11 Laker. What ifs in a row? Turn the camera on Kyle. You can give your commentary after each one. Lakers what-if number one after the 2010 title.

What if the CP3 trade happens? I don't think Kobe and Chris Paul are the right fit. Agree. But I think he's a better asset than Gasol and Odom. So at least they could have spun him if it didn't work out. What if Kobe doesn't tear his Achilles?

What if Dwight, the Dwight trade or the Nash trade didn't work out? What if Kobe's two-year extension doesn't happen? What if KD looks at the team in 2016 and says, fuck it, I'm going to try to turn the Lakers around. Let's do this.

What if they took Tatum over Lonzo, which is the single most underrated what if of all of these? Because that's like the Celtics swap one and three because they know the Lakers are taking Lonzo. The Lakers don't try to hijack them for it at all. And by the way, one of Magic Johnson's last gifts for the Celtics. He may have taken the 87 title for us,

but Lonzo over Tatum. What if Paul George comes with LeBron in 2018? What if they wait on the AD trade and don't just do it a year before he turns free? What if they're just like, nah, he wants to come here and we're going to wait. What if AD doesn't get hurt last year? And what if they go DeRozan for Westbrook,

which I'll let you comment on. Because that was sitting there on the table for them. DeRozan wanted to come. Cheaper cost than Westbrook. And they went for Westbrook. So you want me to give you what I think the biggest what-if is out of all of those? Yeah, give me your biggest. I just gave you 11 what-ifs with them.

You know, I'll do the one I think is the most interesting, because on top of everything else we haven't even touched on, is Kobe hated Jim Buss so badly, he would just tell Stephen A he sucked, and he would tell Wilbon he sucked. And so everybody that had a line to Kobe would be on TV shows talking about how terrible Jim Buss was. This is not all of a sudden

a Jim Buss protection corner here. But I'm telling you, any other, like my rule with a lot of this stuff is any other fucking front office would have been like, wait, I get Kobe Gasol and I bring in Dwight

and I got to trade it two firsts for Nash. i have nash kobe dwight and pal and other than you know dwight who's not always the easiest fit especially that stage of his career because what his expectations were of himself nash should figure it out pal figures it out you know you're gonna just watch kobe for a lot of those possessions too but now there's nash you have to respect it so they spent a ton of money. And I don't know that there've been any other GM that would have said, nah, let's actually not do that.

And since Kobe just wanted to motherfuck Jim all the time, cause he liked Jeannie, then that's kind of what happened. And that was another part of all of that stuff. So I always think the, what if that's too, too, I would say unfairly criticized is the playing the results on the Howard, Nash, Gasol, Kobe group

that did nothing. The only what if out of all the ones I've mentioned that we criticize them for in the moment, unequivocally, it was the Westbrook trade, which you and I both hated. And the fact that DeRozan has had such a, I don't want to say resurgence,

but he's been good the last few years, but that he upped his game even one more level. And you think what that would have meant to this team they have now versus what Westbrook gives them. And that Westbrook thing is just like... It's even worse. I haven't been a fan for years,

and it's even worse than my very tepid expectations because the other night after they lost to the Clippers and we were there and there was that Reggie Jackson sequence where Reggie got into it with LeBron on the baseline at the other end earlier in the game and then Reggie started getting into it with Russ and Russ didn't like

Reggie Jackson when Reggie Jackson was in Oklahoma City. There was a quote after the game where they were playing against each other for the first time and they asked Russ like, hey, you know, Reggie Jackson, when Reggie Jackson was in Oklahoma City, there was a quote after the game where they were playing against each other for the first time. And they asked Russ like, hey, you know, Reggie back, a lot of anticipation for that. And he's like, who? He dropped the who, which is usually the biggest loser move ever

when you know exactly who the guy is. It's like, ooh, cool. He pretended he didn't know who it was, even though he wrote teammates together. And so Westbrook gave his quote on that. And then there was a sequence where Reggie Jackson went at Russ, worked him got him in a switch, hit a three starts dancing, it was like a real 80's high school movie

revenge moment for Reggie Jackson at the end of that Lakers game, but then after the game, a reporter's asking Westbrook like, hey when you came here, I can't imagine this is what you would envision and Westbrook's retort is what did I envision and the guy's like, I can't imagine this is what you would envision. And Westbrook's retort is, what did I envision? And the guy's like, I don't know, maybe a nice playoff run.

I'm like, all right, you pissed at me? Because I asked a completely reasonable question, and then Westbrook's like, well, season isn't over yet. So I think the hardest part for not only Westbrook being the worst off-the-ball player you could have, because not just the lack of skills, he doesn't set screens, he's not going to hit any shots.

His rebounding is, even though the numbers are good, it fucks you up. And defensively, he's below average. He's been a mess for years defensively. As soon as anybody that I'd ever talked to about Westbrook, as soon as they would talk about

how good he was defensively, I knew I was talking about fraud. Happened all the time. He's also level 11 delusional about what's going on, which is probably the scariest part. It's honestly like reading those stories about Steven Seagal after he had Steven Seagal's run, where he's still carrying himself like a giant star, and it's like, you were just in a straight-to-cable action movie.

What are you doing? You're not an A-lister anymore. Russ just said, you're not an A-lister anymore, Russ. And I don't know what they do. I don't know what team. Go through the 29 other teams and tell me what team is taking Russell Westbrook next year. So we were like, oh, Houston will take him.

Will they? We just want to deal with this from what you've seen. They didn't want the way from what you've seen they didn't want them you know a month ago by the way houston for these these i've heard a bunch of stuff and again living in la i'll hear about these proposed westbrook trades and you go hey i know it's only one year and i'm not saying he's not going to get flipped because stuff happens and a team could be you know below the floor enough that they do it. But a team like Orlando that's invested in its backcourt with really young players they have to figure out, a team like Houston.

Houston doesn't want John Wall playing. They don't want him around. Wall is a less damaging version of Westbrook at this point as a player, even if he's not as good. And so, I don't know. You know what I kind of can't wait, though? This is what I can't wait for. Because you're going to make, I wish I could make money off of this.

I could fucking retire next week if I could invest in this prop bet. Can I guess? You're not going to guess it. Can I guess the prop bet? You can, but you're not going to get it. Will Russell Westbrook finish this regular season with the Lakers?

Well, now we get a hold. This is the new A block right now. You've ruined my commentary because this is too spicy. Yes, I think he will. I don't think he'll get that point. You think they just shut it? Well...

No, I could just say, is there a world where it's like, I have plantar fasciitis, I can't play anymore, but he really just doesn't want to play? It's in play. No? The last week? Yeah, you know what?

That's not going to shock me. There are a couple games left, and they go, that doesn't matter. Because I made a mistake when I tweeted out. I go, hey, for everybody writing the Lakers off in the play-in game, are you watching the teams behind them? I already projected New Orleans to jump them, but when you look at everybody else,

New Orleans is going to pass them. I'd be shocked if they didn't. Here's my bet. I interrupted you. No, no. It's good. That was good because that's actually better. Here's my prop bet. It's right around draft time. Westbrook's traded. For a guy that's the first ballot Hall of Famer, he'll be on five teams in five years

and i'm not talking about from like ages 36 to 40 we're talking you know just past 30 and so like hey doesn't that tell you a little bit something about the guy and again this is a victory lap for me arguing with people about this for years but there will be someone on television when he gets flipped that goes this this man still gets you 18, 7, and 7. And they're going to talk it up, and they're going to act like these raw numbers mean anything, and I can't wait for that moment because someone will do it. Well, it's funny.

Golden State was like the one team that they kind of match up well with because LeBron can bully them and they can surround them with guards. But you go to the Clippers game and Zubats and Hartenstein it's like an offensive rebound layup line for them. Any miss just gets tipped back in. They're running on

misses. Nobody's getting back. And if I'm a Laker fan and I look at that lebron 56 you barely won the words didn't even play well you know and it was awesome to see lebron play like that but i think i said this i was did the ringer gambling show on friday he's not shutting it down that like all that stuff was like could he shut it down and save him for next year like it's all about the stats now. He's going to... This is a great point. Make your

Karl Malone point because you tweeted this and it's a great point. You made it on Friday. Well, he's getting close to Karl Malone and Kareem and he's I think 3,300 points away from 40,000 from starting

the 40 10 club. He's not shutting it down. He's not going anywhere. And the only reason I mentioned it is because I keep seeing Perkins, who I enjoy following on Twitter, he's like, they got to shut it down. They got to shut LeBron down, save him for next year. They're not doing that. Every game counts. Karl Malone, we all assumed was going to pass Kareem. And guess what? He got hurt and he didn't. And he fell a couple hundred points short. So, you know, LeBron,

trust me, gives a crap about this. And he should. Yeah, by the way, Malone missed it by over 1,000. Just so we... Because when you said that, I was like, wait, what? Because I was looking at it again. Well, but 1,000 is if you play 70 games and you average 13 points a game, you're getting it.

Yeah. Okay. 20 games for Will. So we are going to... 20 games for Will. We're going to bring Ethan Sherwood-Strauss in here because he wrote about the growing power of the agencies

and this has to do with the Lakers discussion because a lot of the stuff that's happened for them the last couple years definitely has been agent-driven

I don't know if this is a new thing or not in the NBA we're going to talk about that we're going to talk about is this getting worse? Has it always been the same and we're just more aware

of it now and a whole bunch of other things, but that is all next. All right, Ethan's joining us. We're going to try to, Raselle and I are doing these Sunday pods. We may bring some guests in for the last segment

just to mix it up. You know, you got to, with a marriage, you got to mix it up. You got to have some fun. The longer the marriage goes, you got to keep it spicy. You got to have some fun. The longer the marriage goes, you got to keep it spicy. Ethan has a sub stack that, when did you start it? About six months ago.

And you used to write for The Athletic and for ESPN. We tangentially worked together and you worked with Priscilla tangentially as well. You have carved out a little territory already as you're not beholden to anybody. You're just kind of over there. You're watching what's going on. And you wrote this piece recently about agencies and basketball that Russel and I thought were fascinating. Russel, what was your favorite thing about that piece? I just don't think enough people are covering it this way. And I think that's your freedom because you're just not really covering the NBA. So you did it for a long time. You wrote

a book about the Warriors. It's fantastic. So you still have contacts, but I just feel like there's a lane here that just isn't touched on. And when you did the Lakers and clutch and the New York CAA thing, and it wasn't like some hit piece. It was just, I think, enlightening or educational for people that maybe don't understand how often I know I personally will be like, why the hell did that happen? And then they go, well, the relationship with the agent, teams across the landscape. You're like, oh, the GM kind of like, I sort of hooked him up there and took care of his guy because it happens way more than people realize. And yeah, Ethan, I think the big thing and why your piece was so timely because we were getting all this intel coming out all star weekend with, you know, LeBron did all the stuff he did in Cleveland and there was breadcrumbs dropped all over the place. He mentioned Sam Presti talks about there's stuff getting floated out to different reporters and who knows what the sources were,

but it was basically like LeBron's unhappy and he wants the Lakers to fix this. And then from what I heard last week, when they had the big meeting with everybody and the Lakers, this is the first time in LeBron's career where they were just like, look, man, you push for the Westbrook trade.

Like we're not spending more assets on this and you're in a contract next year. And if you're not happy, we can try to figure something out basically. And I think this is the first time the juice was kind of flipped on LeBron. But in your reporting on this, what did you find out from the clutch standpoint? Because the sentiment in the league is clutch runs the Lakers. Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth to that until it's no longer true. I guess I'm a little bit oddly sympathetic to the clutch perspective in calling around and talking to people. I think there is an argument for, hey, you came to us, Jeannie Buss and the Lakers. You were in a bad state, right? And yeah,

you don't like what's going on. You don't like how we're pushing you around. You feel like you did a deal with the devil. We delivered. You got a championship. And yeah, it's a bubble championship, but you got a championship. You got LeBron. You got Anthony Davis forced out of New Orleans. So we don't really want to hear this stuff about how we're the problem. Rob Palenka is the problem. I don't think it's that simple. I think the whole arrangement, even if I am sympathetic somewhat to their perspective, has felt weird and kind of gross and kind of mercenary.

And I'm sure there are some Lakers who are quite thankful for the championship, but the whole thing feels off. But at the same time, I do understand the clutch perspective. I do get it. So Ethan, do you think, is this the start of a new generation of where front offices leaning on agencies where it's almost like where the leaning goes wrong? Because part of me feels like, I don't know. I felt like when I was in the nineties, David Falk had as much power as anybody. I don't know if he was able to force the bulls to do anything, but I think he was feared. And I do think there's some agencies now that are feared,

but I think what's different is I don't remember the agencies actually being involved in the transactions the way they are now. So what did you learn about that? Yeah, it was always thus to a degree. And Dan Fagan was running the Dallas Mavericks and Schwartz was into the was into the Bucks. And you had these teams where it was a partnership. And, you know, talking to GMs, they say, look, the agent starts sweet talking you. And, you know, next thing you know, you think that they're doing favors for you, but really you've been captured and you're doing favors for them. And the parasite has taken over the organism and that's something you got to be wary of. I think what's different is just the clutch model involves a player leveraging himself and being part of the agency,

which I think has been destabilizing to the league. It's something the league probably never should have allowed, but it took some real balls and vision to do it. And at least from a business perspective, you got to respect that LeBron and Rich Paul pulled this off and they've turned this thing into a behemoth. I mean, Clutch isn't just some weird novelty thing that just runs the Lakers. They've partnered with UTA, which is one of the biggest Hollywood agencies, and they're going head to head with CAA. And I know at this point, a lot of people are listening and are saying, this is too many initials. You got to start talking about basketball. I mean, I felt a little bit of panic when you guys reached out to me to do this because it can feel like studying for a test and just trying to figure

out all these different alliances behind the scenes. But Bill, I think that's the dynamic. This sort of agency team partnership that involves a player being part of the agency is the new component. And I do think it represents something that has turned off the fans just a bit because it's all become combined with this era of breaking news being just the dominant thing that ESPN cares about. And therefore, they've got to kiss the ass of the agents. The agents are running teams. And all of a sudden, nobody can be honest about anything. Not nobody, but a lot of people can't be honest about anything in NBA media. Well, that's good for your sub stack.

I think it's been good for you guys, you know, because you guys aren't necessarily all about, we need to break the news. And that's the thing we need to do first and foremost. I think it's benefited not only my sub stack, but people who say, Hey, I want to do analysis and I want to do opinion because the publications or the main publication that focuses on breaking news first and foremost, if you start giving your opinion, you start saying, hey, this player is really dogging it. Hey, this player handled his free agency like shit. You're going to offend sources and you're going to offend agents. And that's not going to be good for your news breaking.

And so I think it's just made some of the product anodyne out of ESPN especially. And it's probably helped you guys have some more territory. You know, the part where Clutch worked with CAA and then CAA thought they were going to have LeBron a long time. Like, now that we know their playbook, you're like, that might have been one of the biggest misunderstandings of a

relationship you could ever possibly have. Because they were like, thanks for the lessons, boys. We're out of here. Which is what they've done done with the player part of it i would say that they definitely are are uh emphatic i'm pushing back on the idea well lebron doesn't own the agency it's not him it's like all right whatever man it doesn't really matter that part i've always respected i think the part where clutch gets a little offended is they think that there's a target on them and there's criticism of them that's that's different and i'll be like man everybody hates scott boris nobody liked david falk everybody hates agents our whole our whole life yes who's like other

than jerry mcguire who loved agents yeah which by the way is why i think a lot of fans are turned off by the tenor of nba coverage because it sounds like what an agent would say. And agents have a job to do. They do it well. But fans don't have that perspective. They don't want to feel sorry for Ben Simmons and feel like he might have gotten screwed over this way or that way. That's not how they feel about it. So if you start communicating to the fans in that way from the agent perspective, even doing that when it's hidden, it repels people. Yeah. See, that's the time, too, when I'll read something where I'm like, OK, this is coming straight from the agent perspective, even doing that when it's hidden, it repels people. Yeah. See, that's the time too, when I'll read something where I'm like, okay, this is coming straight from the agency. Like some of the Ben Simmons stuff, despite having some sympathy for what he's going through, I'll read other parts of it and go, this is such bullshit. This is

insulting to any of us that are reading this stuff. But I want to hit back to the next thing, because I think a lot of this is like, okay, what's our plan? What's our structure? We're like, okay, we're going to tank. Well, that didn't work out. Oh, tanking doesn't work. No, it's a place at the table, but it's not a guarantee. Oh, let's clear for cap space. We'll do that. Cap space, I would argue, is even worse than it's ever been now because guys are back on the longer term deals and just forcing trades. So the cap space isn't even as advantageous as maybe it once was and even then it was kind of overrated and then you look at the next you look at dolan and i'm again not defending dolan but you go okay former player model hall of famer isaiah thomas all right that

didn't work okay i gotta beg phil jackson to have some credibility here donnie walsh she left out that the whole yeah right yeah donnie walsh all right who you know i think all of us have a ton of respect for what he did with the Pacers when you start looking at early Pacers draft picks to build up some of those really good Reggie Miller teams those guys were hitting it out of the park every year Phil is a complete flame out because I don't even think he wanted the job and so Dolan's like

screw it like here you go CAA here are the keys and then if I'm Dolan I'm like hey when do we get the good fucking players though? Right. You guys had the connections. Yeah. Yeah, I don't, I guess that the,

so it all ties into this bigger picture, which Ethan's written about a couple of times with the reporting structure is kind of tied into the agency structure, which is tied into the information structure is kind of tied into the agency structure, which is tied into the information structure. And all of it is this weird, I'm going to use the word morass, because half the time I read this stuff,

and maybe I know too much. I might be too under the hood. It used to be like when I watched ER with my stepmom in the 90s, and she was in OBGYN, and she would just be able to pick apart the scenes. I might have too much information already, but I read this reporting now and I'm just like, what was that person's agenda to get that out? What was this part? This whole Ben Simmons, he's his backer. Is it hurt? Like I'm half the time, I don't know what to believe anymore. And I didn't used to feel that way about the information that would come out. I'm always wondering now, why did this come out? Who wins with this? What did this person have to gain? What did this team have to gain?

And maybe is that just where we are now, Ethan? I think it is where we are. Maybe it should be pared back. I think that should be a goal of the NBA. And this has been a great NBA week to be sure with LeBron 56 points, Jason Tatum going off. Some cool stuff is happening and there just needs to be a recognition that perhaps the agencies have a little bit too much control and it needs to be pared back and at least needs to be a focus. I don't have all the answers on how to do it. I just know it's hard to hit a target without aiming for it. So I do think the weird murkiness of the league needs to be pared back. And it's also just kind of sleazy. I mean, some of these situations, maybe the Lakers got something out of it with clutch. I mean, not even maybe they did get something out of it, but some of these other situations, it feels almost like good fellows

where, uh, they, he comes to them, you know, help me with the restaurant. They've lured him in and they bust out the restaurant and they're just getting great deals for these guys while pretending that they're really helping them and trying to win a championship. I'm not making any accusations for certain specific teams, but certainly at times with CAA and the Knicks, it's had that flavor to it. So it just seems like something the league should do something about. I'm just throwing it out there. Anything they can do to get the focus back on basketball and not on whatever agenda would probably be for the better. Okay, the next, the CAA thing. What didn't you tell us in your article that you can share with us

on a much more informal, barely listened to podcast? Because it sounded like you knew some tales and you just left it vague of like the non-CAA Knicks felt a certain way about the CAA Knicks. Oh, but wait, before you answer that, I think it was worse before because to me, the most glaring one was the Bargnani trade.

Remember, he was a CAA client and they had the opportunity to do whatever and they ended up giving a first round pick in that because they wanted to get Bargnani to the Knicks. And that was the one time, I don't know how much, what kind of influence CAA has had over the years. Obviously they have some now because Leon and Wes are there, but the Bargnani trade was the one time where it did feel like, oh, this guy's being planted there.

And there was at one point, what did they have? Like six, seven CAA guys on the Knicks. Now I think they only have two. Yeah. No, it's definitely been pared back. They traded a lot of assets to get CAA client Carmelo Anthony, and I think that everything just comes back to LeBron. So much of what has gone right in the league and wrong about the league comes back to LeBron. I think swinging and missing on

LeBron inspired the Knicks to get in bed with CAA. This is just how you got to play the game because we failed and this is our path to power. And for some reason, failing repeatedly hasn't, I guess, dissuaded them on that. But I think that's one thing. I hadn't really thought about the history of that.

And people came out of the woodwork and were saying, hey, it dates back to that. It dates back to 2010. But just, yeah, LeBron, for better or for worse, I think has been highly influential. And this is just a broader conversation outside of the agencies. I think he brought this mercenary era

that is very much tied in with agencies and getting represented and leveraging teams and flexing your power. He brought in this mercenary era to the NBA, which I think for a short time was kind of cool when he went to South Beach and all these people hated him and everything else. But I also think that it's sort of worn out. It's welcome and people don't like it. There was this moment I was watching the shop when the shop was on. I don't think a lot of

people do that, but sometimes I do. And he had Anthony Davis with him and Anthony Davis was saying, hey, you know, LeBron taught me that I've got to view myself as a business. You know, I've got to view myself as a corporation. And I just remember thinking, you know, the league can handle LeBron James viewing himself that way. I don't know if the league can handle like 25 guys viewing themselves that way. I don't think that really works. So in a way, it's the strange story of LeBron because he's so incredible and he's so influential among his peers and they all want to be like him, but they can't really do the things he does. And they followed his example. And I think it just got things kind of kind of wonky and kind of out of sorts in the league.

Can I ask a ratings question? Because you've been on this for a while, and I'm going to use a little anecdote here. Sure. When presidential approval ratings come out, I'll always laugh when somebody will say, like, well, that's not what it is. It's like, well, if you have a roommate and you and your roommate like or don't like the president and disagree with the approval rating, two guys living together maybe is the best poll sourcing as opposed, but like people can convince themselves of that,

right? Yeah. They could sit at home, two guys on the couch and be like, Oh, that seems high. That seems low. Like,

wait, you're, you're suggesting the polling data is wrong because you guys feel differently. I remember going down South and getting in a cab and, you know, we were wondering if the NFL ratings were down and the Kaepernick part of it was a drum that was banged quite a bit and i thought that was i was like there's no way it's down just because of that it might just be a headline and then i get

into a cab and the guy was like oh what do you do i told him i worked in sports he goes i stopped watching the nfl because of that i was like wait so you liked watching the nfl and you started to punish yourself now you're never gonna watch it again on Sundays. Like that seems fucking you, you're losing in this deal. So I found a guy, but because I found a guy, it didn't mean that now that study's over, it confirmed it today in a cab in Louisiana,

you know? So when I look at the, the NBA rating stuff that you've brought up and the decline by market, which I think is the really alarming stuff, I wonder what's real and what isn't real. And you've put a lot of time into this. I have a bunch of different theories. I just don't know that I'm going to know the answer, even though I wouldn't dismiss any theory, but I certainly wouldn't say any theory is the main source of a decline. No, anything big is multi-factor,

right? And for some reason, I don't know why people are like this. They try to make it about one thing. It's about one thing. It's load management. It's the politics and the political signaling. And I think it's weird when people deny that that can be a factor, but it certainly isn't the only factor. I look at the whole thing as they've got some great stuff going on. They've got some great players. They can certainly rebound. This has happened before after Michael Jordan, where they had a big decline. But I'm a curious person. I like looking at what happened. Oh my God, millions of people just changed their habits. What does it mean? It's an interesting conversation, I think. And to what you're saying, I do think it's multifactor. And when things are multifactor, it just almost, it's like a chemical reaction. It just becomes this big thing and people change their preferences. It becomes the load management. It becomes the mercenary aspect. It feels like they're getting lectured about politics by people who won't say anything

about China when China's trying to get Daryl Morey fired. And the biggest star in the league is basically lecturing Daryl Morey and saying that Daryl Morey fired. And the biggest star in the league is basically lecturing Daryl Morey and saying that Daryl Morey is bad instead of saying, hey, people are entitled to their opinions in the United States of America and shouldn't get pressured to get fired by another country.

So, I mean, all of this stuff, I think, combined to create a certain malaise. And it happened. And to me, it's interesting to think about it and just look at how is the league going to fix it? Because I think sometimes people just view criticism as bad. It's bad. It can be good.

You know, there was a lot of criticism of the NBA post Michael Jordan, of the style of play. I mean, Bill wrote about it, how the games in these playoff series were 75 to 72. Well, all of the criticism, and back then there wasn't so much reluctance to make the criticism. People would just say, hey, NBA is not hot right now.

It's not going great. I think it pressured the league to make some changes. They made the rule changes, the reforms. Yeah, you could say there is the dress code and all of that, and that's a very fraught conversation, but it did lead to the seven seconds or less, the stylistic changes that I think saved the NBA. So it's not bad, I would say, to just notice when things aren't going well. Sometimes you've got to understand reality to make the proper course correction. To me, it's a young star thing, I think is the biggest issue because, and we're seeing it this year with, especially like what's happened with Ja the last couple

weeks and what might be happening with Tatum as we speak. And these 25 and under guys that I think are finally blossoming into a generation. And the last time somebody really became a phenomenon who was like an under 27 guy was the Steph Warriors stuff. Remember in which, Ethan, you were there for some of that, but that 2013, 14, 15 range, when all of a sudden Steph became the new guy and he became an actual star and it really mattered. And then KD goes to the Warriors and you just had these star making things happening, real stardom going on. And I look at some of the guys, this Giannis, Luca, Joel Embiid, Jokic, and these unbelievable players coming up. But I wonder, the thing that worries me for the league and just worries me in general is if you're not born in America, is everybody going to care the same way? Because we produced these four awesome players. So why didn't they resonate the same way Steph did? Right?

And I don't know. That's a weird conversation to have, too. But Giannis is like, he checks every fucking box. Why isn't he the most popular guy in the last 10 years? I don't understand that piece. I think they screwed up the marketing of him. I think that's a huge element of it. I think sometimes the people who make ads project what's important to them and their sensibility, very college educated. It's got a political valence. And they were saying they were really big on, oh, my God, this guy, he's an immigrant and he grew up hard. And, you know, that's all very

interesting stuff. And if you love the Bucks and Giannis, you'll read Mirren Fader's book. And I'm not saying that's that's something to be dismissed at all, but it's not what makes kids like a basketball player. Kids like a basketball player because he seems fun and he can do shit nobody else can do. And they're unpredictable. Like Ja, it's like, oh, cool, Ja can dunk over anybody at any time. I want to get his jersey.

Yes, and Ja's the next guy and he's really resonating. And it seemed like Giannis, the ads, if you look at the kinds of ads they made for him, it's like they just forgot that he's fun, that he's a magnetic personality forgot that he's fun, that he's a magnetic personality, that he's likable. This wasn't emphasized and said it was the heavy stuff.

And Nike makes a lot of those ads where there's the trinkly piano keys and they tell you about something that's very important and they think that this resonates. It doesn't. Nobody's looking to them for that. They want ads that are fun. They want players that are fun and look like they're having a great time. And so I think they screwed up with Giannis. I do think that it is an obstacle when it's somebody from another country, but I think they could have done a much better job marketing him. And credit to Nike, I guess, because I think that they did make an ad campaign for Ja. Ja, I listened to that podcast with you and Vernon, and he's just got something. And I also think, bringing it back to what we were talking about before, this is how

people want it to happen. This is how people like it. They like when it's Steph Curry, and it's a team of guys, and they seem like they're friends, and you're watching them kind of grow up before your eyes and it seems organic and similar with John Morant and the Grizzlies where it just, it's unexpected, it's out of nowhere, but you're just watching it all grow and you don't know where it's headed and it just seems like- KD and OKC too, that was another one. Yes. Yes, that's another. That's a great example. So I think those situations just resonate more than these weird ones where the star gets unhappy and forces his way out and that he's unhappy again and that he's going to

force his way out again. I mean, this sort of stuff. Yes, there's free agency. Yes, players should be able to make their own decisions, but I don't make the rules. It just seems like it resonates more when it's one guy in one town and you're watching him on a kind of upward trajectory so i also think we have to be fair about the rating stuff too and realize we are now like in part three of three fucked up seasons of trying to figure this out okay hundred thousand percent right and i remember talking to the nba about like hey now you get a chance to run

your template of having summer games and you're not competing with football as much and here's what will happen and the people that i talked to were like there's a reason we don't do it because the numbers tell us there are not enough televisions on and even with people star for entertainment they still didn't want to stay in and watch as much basketball during August and July as maybe you thought that would happen and you'd avoid football and all this other stuff. That did not happen. Then I think because it was just it's just a weird time. And the same thing with that football thing. Like, I just remember being ESPN and listen to so many people around me talking about the decline of football.

And even Mark Cuban was like, I'd rather own a basketball team than an NFL team, which is certainly self-serving, uh, which I don't blame him for saying, but I'm like, yeah, I'm not there yet with you. And it came back up. So it can come back up. But I think more than anything, the freedom of movement, there'll all be always be resentment from, from the guy who was hoping he can bring his kid to a game because it's human nature to resent somebody that has the power that you don't have. And I just felt like all the millions of us that care should just accept that these guys have freedoms that we're never going to have in the workplace. And I do think collectively now on about year five or six of this, where if you said, hey, check out the NBA where our players don't play a ton.

It's just, you know, it's the truth. I love this game, dot, dot, dot, sometimes. Yeah. When they're here, it's fantastic. So I don't know how you could ever have a league, and this is the part where I think this generation is kind of fucked and is kind of selfish, that you have to start thinking about shit down the road. Not one of these guys are ever going to care about it.

They would laugh at me for even suggesting this. But if this trend continues, you're starting to fuck future generations on this because you guys just didn't feel like playing north of 60 games and you could get away with it, which is a very, very myopic way to look at it and would ultimately be the only way a 20- 30 year old would look about anything when you're one of the most special people in the world at what you do. I think on the ratings thing,

I'm not willing to... I want to see what happens with the playoff ratings this year because everything is lined up. There's going to be unpredictability because we have somewhere between 9 and 11 playoff teams that I think all of us like. You have real stars. You have real stars, you have young stars. You're not going to probably have LeBron. But other than that,

any other relevant guy in the league is going to be in those playoffs. And more importantly, what Rasul has said earlier, there's a reason they have the playoffs from mid-April all the way to mid-June because that's when the TVs are on. So I think the ratings are going to bounce back. And to me, it's like no different than what happened in football. Football, they fixed how violent it was over, what, a 10-year span there. And they were able to take that conversation out. And then they got lucky with stars.

Like they have good quarterbacks that people want to watch. They have Mahomes, they have Josh Allen, and they have Lamar Jackson and Justin Herbert, Joe Burrow. And they have this whole new generation now, guys, they're going to carry the league for the next 15 years. I feel the NBA is in a similar spot with the talent they have. So am I going to be wrong when the ratings come out in May and it's like, holy shit, they're still down? Then I'll be shocked. But until that happens, I'm going to believe this rebounds. Well, I think it's going to be better.

Also, they juiced the stats for the ratings, which I think helps. And that's not just for the NBA. That's for everybody. They're now counting any out-of-home hospitals, airports, whatever. So the NFL has been saying more people are watching than ever. Not exactly true. So that's a little bit of a boost, but also sometimes you can have lower viewership and it's not great for that year, but it's part of an investment. I mean, the least watched NBA finals when it happened was LeBron versus the San Antonio Spurs. Now, in a way that was a measure of the league's lack of health at that particular moment that people in the mid-aughts weren't make a run, maybe they're in the Western Conference

Finals. Let's just throw that out there. That's not going to be a tremendously watched Western Conference Finals, perhaps, because Memphis is such a small market with something like 600,000 households. But that could be good for the league long term as an investment because it's important that people, sports fans, casual fans, know who Ja Morant is. It would be part of him becoming a household name that would transcend

the market or any of that shit just because he's so incredible to watch. It's complicated. You can have a low viewership year that can perhaps serve something for you in the future. All right. Rassell, anything else? No.

Covered it. I'm buying playoff rating stock. So we clear gentlemen's bet. I think it's going to be a big playoffs for them. And I think there's teams. You're talking about teams in big markets, Boston, Philly, Chicago,

et cetera, Dallas. And then you're talking about... Over under NBA Finals finals 15 million person average i'd probably go under for that yeah me too yeah but bill when you said it's unpredictable i think the the viewer has told us they like predictability interesting you mean like the the calves warrior stuff was like i mean ethan you have it more documented than than either bill or i do yeah but calves warriors though that was the two biggest stars of the last or two of the three biggest stars of the last what 15 years going head to head and then durant was probably the fourth biggest well if you're going 15 years if you're

going 15 if you're going 15 years, you got to include Kobe. That's what I mean. I said two of the three. To sort of end on this, I think Cavs Warriors initially before Kevin Durant, it was resonant because of the big stars, but it was also because there was Cleveland versus the Fancy Pants Bay Area. Whenever you can get contrast, it does really well. The most watched Western Conference Finals was Lakers-Kings. It wasn't Lakers versus another

big market team. It was Cowtown versus Hollywood. That dynamic. Duke versus UNC, the conservative institution versus the liberal public school. People love those contrasts. So in the end, end of the day, we can think about markets, we can think about stars, but story is predominant. And anything where you get that epic contrast, that tends to do really well for you.

Sounds like somebody's endorsing Lakers Hartford NBA. That would be incredible. Ethan, good luck with the sub stack. Keep it up. Thanks for popping out. It was good to see see you thanks so much for having me guys all right rossillo hey that got me even more excited for to see what happens with the playoffs because i i'm actually i don't know why i'm bullish on the nba with despite some evidence against it but i think there's so many good stars i actually could

see a breakout this year, especially no baseball, at least for, what, a couple, we're not going to have baseball probably until May. That's what it feels like. It sounds like the owners kind of went for it to be like, we don't care, but they can't go, I don't, you know, whatever that payback to the regional sports networks are, I don't think

it's a month of missed games, so I think they have to start paying. Whenever that has to come back, I think that's when you can start figuring out when this will happen, but anyway, I don't want to turn it into a CBA missed games so i think they have to start paying whenever that has to come back i think that's when you can start figuring out when this will happen but anyway i don't want to turn into a cba conversation so go ahead well did you see john hayman had a tweet tonight i mean who knows if it's going to get resolved but it was talking about the players are okay with the pitch pitch clocks with banning the shift and with bigger bases when did bases become why do we do bigger bases? I was so confused by that.

Was there a bigger base discussion that I missed? Remember like some of the little league stuff? This is after my time, but they'd have the second, or is it softball they have it? Where there's the two first bases, so there's no collision there. I don't know. I thought we were actually doing okay. You know what I love is that none of this shit matters because it's about the tats and it's about the pre-arbitration right okay so god you know it's just funny the players would be like we gave in on bases in the

shift it's like the other one that i thought was great you can have it the other one was like the owners have given in on the draft lottery from three teams to four what year is it what are you guys talking about like the look what the owners have proposed is they want to hammer the top and flatten it out it's already the tax acts as a cap and they don't want to improve the bottom so to to me, every proposal that I've read, I knew I was pro player before it. I read it after the fact. I think the owners have just been going for the jugular here and seeing how long they can go before the players they hope give in. Because this is such a bad L for the players based on what the proposals are back and forth.

I'm also pro players and it doesn't seem like the owners care if baseball comes back before like June or July. So what do they care? I'd say May. I think May. Well, I mean, yeah, May is probably realistic, but ultimately they just care about making sure

there's enough games and then a playoff. All right, Rosillo, we can listen to the Ryan Rosillo podcast. This one was produced by our guy Kyle Creighton. Thanks to Dylan Berkey and thanks to Steve Cerruti as well.

New rewatchables coming tomorrow night. Batman 1989. That's happening. Stay tuned for that. Got to get you on the rewatchables again, Rosillo. Yeah, we had Wahlberg on to talk about fear on my pod.

Oh, I heard. Was that your way of trying to convince me? Well, we'll talk about it. All right. I don't think that was getting approved anytime soon.

See you on Tuesday. See you on Tuesday.