The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Undertaker on the Montreal Screwjob, Vince McMahon’s Genius, the Attitude Era, Vegas, Concussions, and 30 Years at WWE

Episode Date: May 20, 2020

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by the Deadman himself, the Undertaker (a.k.a. Mark Calaway), to discuss the WWE’s documentary series ‘Undertaker: The Last Ride,’ as well as stories from more than 30 years of professional wrestling, his favorite 'WrestleMania,' his relationship with Vince McMahon, recovering from major injuries, learning from pro-wrestling legends, developing his character, the best crowds, and much more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tonight's episode of the Bill Simmons podcast on the ringer podcast network is brought to you by our friends at ZipRecruiter. We don't know what football is going to look like this fall. Things may be a little up in the air, but some things remain certain, like our presenting sponsor, ZipRecruiter's mission. Through all of this, all the stuff that's going on, they're still dedicated to helping people find jobs and help growing companies hire for their teams. If you're looking for a job, ZipRecruiter's app will send you up-to-date job openings so you can be one of the first to apply by connecting job seekers with employers. ZipRecruiter committed to keeping our workforce strong.

ZipRecruiter.com slash work together. Go check that out. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com and The Ringer Podcast Network. On TheRinger.com right now, we are deep diving a year since game of thrones ended

and a whole bunch of content jason concepcion wrote a really good piece about um what brands uh what his reign looks like right now so you can check out all that the ringer dot com new podcast launching on the ringer podcast network may 20th season one boom bust

tackling the trivia app hq which had a huge rise and a huge fall and it all happened really fast this is a new narrative pod series where we'll be doing more than just hq but this is season one you can listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. We also are announcing a new podcast really soon that we're going to be launching next week. Rumor has it Van Lathan and Rachel Lindsay are going to be involved. Stay tuned for that. More details to come when I have them. Coming up, my first dead guest, The Undertaker. Yeah, The Undertaker. And this is an amazing podcast.

Nephew Kyle said it was top five since he's been producing. At the tail end of it, we're going to play a 2006 Eddie Vedder in Chicago with Pearl Jam playing present tense, but then telling a little story about the Bulls beforehand. So that's going to be as a little cherry on the sundae of a really awesome podcast. We're going to be putting that at the tail end. Thanks to our friends at Pearl Jam for giving us that. And now, speaking of Pearl Jam, here are our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, making history here. I've been doing podcasts for 13 years.

I've never had a dead man on the podcast. But now now here he is, The Undertaker. How are you? I'm doing good, and if you live to tell about it, you'll be doing even better, I guess. Have you ever done a podcast before? You know what? Just since this doc has come out, but yeah i've always uh i've always passed um i just you know the character always come first in my book so there's a lot of things that i had to i had to say no to um uh just because i didn't feel like it worked um you know for what i was trying to do on tv and, you know, for, for all those years, it just, you know, you can't see this part of me and then me go out and then do the other guy.

Right. Be a connection. So yeah, I've probably done more media and more things in the last two weeks than I have. And, and I wouldn't say my whole career, but it's probably close. Yeah. Well, you have the last ride, which there's two episodes up right now in the WWE network. And I had no idea this was happening. I had no idea it was going to be this, uh, this honest and this behind the scenes. Cause as you just said, you've been meticulous about never showing that side. What made you decide?

Because this goes back basically to 2017. Right. What made you decide you wanted to start documenting this and kind of cross that fourth wall? Well, it started out with at that WrestleMania in 17, I thought that was it and um because i had been

so protective i just thought i didn't know we didn't start out with the idea of making a documentary i just wanted that footage of those last few days around what i thought was going to be my last wrestlemania right i didn't know what we were going to do with it, but I wanted it. And I knew at some point it would probably come in and we would do something. I had no idea it would be at this scale that it's turned out to be because obviously after that WrestleMania, it kind of continued on. And the next thing you know, we're three years down the road and we've got all this footage. And, and yeah, that's kind of how it came about.

It wasn't, it wasn't designed to be a docu-series. It was kind of just, I wanted to document those, those last few days of me being around the business. And it really, it really blew up into a three-year project yeah but you should have known as a wrestling guy wrestling and boxing nobody ever officially retires you think you think you're retiring but you just never know people come back that's what you know in the in the doc you know it's just like the old godfather uh quote you know every time i think i'm out out, I get pulled right back in. So no, you never say never.

You never say never in this business. That is a parallel between boxing and wrestling. You just never know. Well, I don't want to spoil part one too much because part one, I was not only riveted. I was really into it. I thought it was excellent. Like, you know, as somebody who really cares about the form and you know, a lot of the times when people do these, they become basically infomercials. I call them documersials. And this was way deeper than that. Way more honest that one of the things I didn't realize was how disappointed you were with

that WrestleMania match in 2017. And you're going against Roman Reigns. It's this big moment for him, you know, and the, the company had been building him, building him. And this was, you know, supposed to be the exclamation point for here he is. He's arrived. He is our new guy. And you felt like you let him down, which I never knew arrived he is our new guy and you felt like you let him down which i i never knew any of that story why did you feel like you let him down well my my hip was so bad going in uh into that match um you know i just i couldn't i couldn't perform at a level that i wanted to perform at. And then with the magnitude of trying to, you know, I was going to put Roman over and, you know,

that was going to be a big launching pad for him. So obviously I wanted to perform, you know, I wanted that to be like, okay, this is the, you know, this is the slingshot. And I just didn't have it, you know. Did you know as it was going on oh i knew it yeah i knew it before it started i i knew it uh i was going to be in trouble uh at the royal rumble in january before that you know um if you go back and look at the footage i mean you can tell like i'm just not in in the shape that I should be in. Um, you know,

I couldn't train the way I wanted to train, but I'd already committed to doing it. And, um, so I guess, I mean, you know, I'm kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place and, you know, passing the torch is a really big thing in our industry. And he's a, you know, passing a torch is a really big thing in our industry. And he's a, you know, he's a really good dude. He just, he deserved it. And I just wanted to be able to give the best to him that I could knowing what that match was going to mean to his career. And then, you know, when I couldn't deliver for him, you know, yeah,

that kind of stuff bothers me. And when you're leaving the ring after that, and in that match famously, you left your stuff in the middle of the ring and you walked off, you held the fist up, but then you go backstage and you have all these different people greeting you, applauding, hugging you, saying good match.

Are you reading their reactions to see how genuine it is and be like oh man i know this didn't go well i can tell from the looks in their eyes yeah i don't think it was so much as it was a good match i think everyone kind of knew that that was the end yeah and it was i think it was kind of over the body of work and and and the appreciation it definitely wasn't for that match i mean right uh you know, that match felt, you know, anybody wants to be honest. I mean, you know, it fell way short of the expectations,

but I think it was more so a respect thing for all the 27 years prior and everything, more so, you know, and then, you know, it was grown men, grown, you know, tough guy men that were, you know, had tears in their eyes, you know, when I put the hat and the coat and everything down, you know, no one expected that. No one knew what was going to, you know, no one knew what was happening. So it was, it was so organic and, you know, I think it kind of really caught a lot of people off guard. And I think the applause and the greetings and everything were more so for the body of work. Ceremonial.

Yeah. Yeah, in the match. Well, it's interesting because in part two, you show the 2018 match against Cena, and you had had hip surgery at that point, but you're also in way better shape. And you can see it in the match. Like, it looks like you're 25 pounds lighter, obviously, cause you were able to work out,

but you're moving around so much better. And, and at that point you go in, in part one, you talk about, you know, basically you're wrestling once a year and you have to spend three, four months getting ready for this one match. And then three, four months getting ready for this one match. And then three, four months after just recovering from the match. What, when you talk about like getting ready for the match, how do you get your body ready when your body just hasn't been taking those bumps and those hits and all that stuff just to take it for 25 minutes? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's tough, you know, and then it was a lot easier.

Obviously, you see in part two that I actually, you know, had a ring come down here to Texas, which for the past, you know, I would go to Orlando a little bit, but I have to be judicious in how much, you know in how much trauma I take just because it would set me back in my training. Yeah. As crazy as all that sounds, and then what happens, like when you can't take bumps and you can't put your body through that,

then it's really tough on the backside of that match. Now, you can get through the match, but man, I'll tell you know, you can't put your body through that. Then it's, then it's really tough on the backside of that match. Now you can get through the mat, but man, I'll tell you what, that, but your, my body would like literally shut down after, you know, after a WrestleMania match, just, just from the, just from the trauma. That's the, that's the best thing about being able to work, you know, all the time is that your body stays conditioned and for the, for the trauma that it has to take. And then especially being WrestleMania, you know, where everything's let, everything's let go. I mean, I mean,

that's our biggest deal. So everybody, you know, they don't, they don't put any stops on anything. They just go. And, uh, you know, everybody wants to have that, you know, time moments and uh so the body not being conditioned for that is uh you know it's it's pretty brutal um that's why i was so disappointed you know because i i had all that time in the ring i was you know i was in the ring sparring and and going over stuff every other day and then you know we get to i get to new orleans and they said this match probably needs to go about five minutes like you're kidding me right because i'm ready to go i was ready to go for 45 minutes that's right how i trained and and a 45 minute pace because i was i had was so dead Like, I was so disappointed from the prior year that, like,

I'm going to tear this up, and I am going to go at a pace probably faster than what people normally see me go at. I'm going to do things that I haven't done in a long time. And, you know, I was so prepared, and then, you know, it was five minutes. And, you know, I say it in the dare. You then it was five minutes. I say it in the dare. We sell entertainment. We don't sell time.

And that was more of a selfish thing for me. I wanted to show what you saw last year is not where I'm at. Right. Well, it seems like football players talk about it the same way where they need to almost condition their bodies to the punishment. And if they don't have that two, you know, six to eight weeks, two months, whatever it is of the preseason, just to hit the shit out of each other. Right. Then when you get into a game, you're, you're, it's almost like your body can't handle it.

It's weird to think of the concept of conditioning your body for punishment, but I think wrestling and football are probably the two best examples of it, right? I think so. And then, you know, even, you know, that's why you spar too. When you, for boxers, spar, you know, it's also just toughen up their, the skin on their face so they don't get cut, you know, it's, it's also just toughen up their, the skin on the, you know, on their face. They don't get cut, you know? So you have to, you just can't. And especially as you get older, you have to, you have to figure that in too. So I, you know,

I have to train 10 times as hard now for half the results. And, um, you know, I kind of think that's what happened in the match with Lesnar at Mania when I got concussed so severely. That year, you know, I just couldn't, I was like, I had to figure out, okay, am I going to be cardiovascular conditioned or am I going to be conditioned for trauma? You know, I had to pick one or the other

because I was just so beat up that I couldn't, you know, I couldn't get in there and take a lot of bumps. And I was like, well, you know, it's one night I'll, you know, I'll be able to endure whatever. And I think it kind of caught up with me that year. Right. Because most guys aren't able to throw me around, you know, like Brock could, you know, he gave me all those German suplexes and uh you know bumps that most people don't can't give me so you know there was nothing that he did that was unsafe i just just i don't think my body was conditioned for the trauma and yeah so it seems like the the least fun person to get into the ring with i would guess you. You know what? I actually enjoyed his first time there

and when he came back. I mean, it's there, man. That's what I mean. Like, physically, so ridiculous. The burden of even just the German suplex is like, I can't even imagine. Like, he's doing like five, six in a row. You got to feel like a rag doll.

Yeah, by the time you get the cobwebs shook out of your head, there you go. It's going to be one of those nights. Yeah. But that's the game. It's not ballet. Some nights, you're the one that's giving them. Some nights, you're the one getting it. So it all works out.

But I didn't realize until I watched this show that you have no recollection of that match. Cause I would say that's the most famous match of this decade. It's certainly the most, one of the most surreal wrestling matches ever where, you know, you have this, you think you're 20 and 0 at that point and it was just assumed you're never losing right and the sound in the arena when it actually happened i don't think that's ever been replicated in wrestling yeah i know it was from what i'm watching it back i mean it was it was like well yeah all the air got taken out of the arena

you know i think when bruno San Martino finally lost in the mid 70s when he'd had the title for like 8 years everyone says that it was the same kind of sound then where people were just like they just couldn't believe it and then they got pissed but it was like 10 seconds of

like just complete disbelief but was that I'd heard two different versions of this. Were you supposed to lose that match? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because I didn't know if they got audibled

because you were so compromised at some point that they had to shift it. No one knew. I mean, I guess, well, they knew, but Brock, I think, he got hyper nervous about it. knew i mean i guess well they knew but you know they they were like you know brock i think got like he got hyper nervous about it you could tell i mean maybe for the casual fan you couldn't tell but i mean if anybody that is is in on our business or follows our business pretty intently you can you can tell that i'm really lethargic and and i'm moving kind of slow um i thought you got

concussed watching it hey because you didn't seem right and yeah every single moment when even when you're trying to get up it just was so delayed and it was like this doesn't feel like a performance it feels like something's wrong yeah and it was and i and like I said, you, you know, to answer you, I, my memory of that day stops at about three 30 in the afternoon. That's my last memory I have of that day. And my wife had come backstage, uh, you know, she normally does before, you know, I really started getting ready to, um, you know, start going through my process. And, uh, you know, I told her, you know, what was going to happen and calmed her down. Yeah. And, and, and that was it. And then, you know, like I said, my process of, of, of getting ready for a match is, you know, there's, there's a stretching and the, and the heat and seeing the doctors and everything else that I have to do, which I did all of it, but I don't remember doing any of it. And I had no recollection of the match.

It was 4 o'clock in the morning before I knew what my name was. How long after that match did you feel okay? How long did it take? It took – so we – I got out of the hospital, went back to the hotel for a few hours, and then I got on my bus and we came back to Texas. And I basically stayed in my room in the dark for nearly two weeks. Wow. Yeah, it was, and I've been concussed before, but never to that level. I'd never had the lingering headache and the sensitivity to light, all that. That had never happened to that extreme before. So it was, yeah, it was strange. And then not being able to remember, you know, I've been, you know, I've been concussed, like I said, a few times and, you know,

you finish and been able to finish the match and, and then know exactly when it happened. And, but not that time. Yeah. And you don't even, you watch the match. You don't even know when it happened. Right. I can't, I've watched that match as closely. mean and it apart i just can't tell you know i mean

because there's there's nothing that that really said you're like oh okay sometimes you can tell by the way your head hits something or uh you know you'll say okay there it is but i mean i've watched it back and i just cannot pinpoint where it happened uh i guess i could pinpoint i guess i could kind of get in the area because i could tell by the way you know my body language and and my pacing and everything kind of stops but there's nothing that that says okay that should have caused a concussion. The irony is it's one of the most famous passing the torch matches. Lesnar is one of the most important guys of the past decade.

That was the match that cemented it. It's not different than Hulk was the biggest star in the world when he wrestled Andre, but to pin Andre was such a big deal. It put him at a whole other level because nobody beat Andre. Right. And it was same thing with you.

And I really feel like I don't even, I think those are probably the only two matches like that. I don't, can you think of another match like that where it was that much significance? Not, not really. You know, and I remember, you know, I remember Hogan beating Andre and just like, I was, you know, you kind of, from where the industry was at the time, you know, you still think that's still, that's Andre, you know? Yeah. But, you know, Hulk was getting that super mega push and was the face of wrestling. But you still, you know, for guys that had followed Andre, he's like, still Andre the Giant. You know, how are they going to do this? You know, and when it happened, you're like, wow, OK, it's great. And it was the same thing, you know, with Brock.

You know, people were just like, you know, a lot of people were upset about it. You know, a lot of people felt like he didn't need it. It could have done, you know, it could have been somebody else. But, you know, business is business. You didn't even realize the streak was a thing with WrestleMania until what? Like 8, 9, 10? I think it was with going into 10 or so.

I think it was Flair in Toronto. Because at the end of that, I hold up the fingers and I count them out. But before, somebody, I think it was that year that someone said, you know, you're undefeated, right? I was like, really i i had no clue i mean we were so just in the groove and 300 days a year and you don't even think about you at that time you don't you know you don't think about your win loss record and all that right and then it kind of then it took on a life of its own. Like, okay, well we got, you know,

that's just unheard of to be, you know, 10 and 0 at WrestleMania. And then it, I think it went to 21, went to 21 before Brock beat me. That's right. 21.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember when it hit double figures, just wondering, just as a wrestling fan, just being like, I wonder if they'll just,

like how long they'll keep this going. Because part of the problem with wrestling is, you know, when it gets into trouble, it's when they just kind of don't stick with something. You know, and they get hasty or they're like, oh shit, we need something to happen. And then all of a sudden they've put eight, nine months into a storyline or even, even eight, nine years.

And then they'll just get rid of it in a weekend. And they never did that with the WrestleMania streak, which I always thought was impressive. Well, there, yeah. I mean, there were, there were some, uh, I guess there were some creative meetings that it, it, it came up about various different people beating the streak. And, and I think it was one of those rare occasions where a lot of people kind of just like, Vince, you can't do that. It's just not,

you know, we have something here because, you know, there was the, whoever the main event was. And then there was whoever taker was going to wrestle it, you know, who was going to try and get the streak that year.

Right. It's like double main event. It was, it was, it was double. It was a double main event. And, you know, fortunately a lot of guys, like if they didn't win, Right, it's like double main event. It was. It was a double main event. And fortunately, a lot of guys, if they didn't win the chamber,

which the chamber match automatically guarantees you a title shot, the consolation prize was not that bad. You have to go get Taker and try and go after the streak. So. What was the best one in your opinion? What's the, what's, what was the peak? What was the peak WrestleMania, Matt? I have my own personal pick, but I'm interested to see if it jabs with yours. It would have, man, I tell you what I, and I, and I talk about this, like there's those four the four matches the two matches i had

with sean followed by the two with triple h because that was just like if you if you look at it it's one continual story yeah i you know me and sean we had uh you know kind of our heaven and hell match which you know i'm i've never been one to say, okay, you know, this was, this was a great match that that match was as damn near as good as it gets. And I'll put it up against, I'll put it up against about anything. I mean, it was just, everything clicked and, and the match was, was just phenomenal. I had, I had such good chemistry with Shawn and then came back the following year because he was ready to retire so you know then you

have that match which was I mean that was a ton of pressure because you know you got Shawn Michaels last match it's a little bit of pressure in that especially being at WrestleMania right those two matches were really good and then we got to follow that up with okay well sean michael's best friend's gonna step in and you know he's gonna try and take me out for what i did do it i mean it was just i'm really really proud of those those four matches uh but the first sean match was probably probably the best match i think i've ever had yeah it's interesting i would say the first sean match was probably a little bit better,

but the second one was the more emotional one. Oh, yeah. That was like from, if you're working in all the stuff that makes professional wrestling what it is, the second match is probably, probably brings the most elements to it. That's what I try to tell people all the time.

And I talk to young wrestlers. What we do is athletic storytelling. And that's the key to getting people hooked. And that's kind of the disconnect with our product now is everybody thinks it's all about the athleticism and the things that they do in the ring. But it's the storytelling that gets people hooked. And, you know, the, the, and these are really organic moments that happen. Like, you know, the handshake into the hug with Sean, you know,

after he had just lost in his career, he lost his career. And then at the end of the hell of the cell against Triple H, where Sean was the referee, when we went up to the top of the state, all three of us walked out of there together. That wasn't planned. That's all, that was all organic stuff. Yeah. It was just like, you know what,

this is probably going to be the last chance for this era to be, you know, doing it together. And it was, it was just, you know, it was just something that happened. And, you know, I have a, I have a poster of that, of the three of us standing up there. It's above the door to my gym here at the house and I see it all the time. And I just, you know, I can't help but look at it and feel proud that those, like I said, those were, you know, those four matches were just, I thought in my opinion,

like they were storytelling at its best. And, um, and it's hard to do in this day and age to take something for four years is as much content and as much exposure as we get to be able to do that it's uh i'm really proud of those you know you might have a different answer for this but i thought sean was the guy that meshed with you the best because you guys were so different and the things you were good at the things he were good at and he was good at and you know the best quality he had was he's on the short list of being able to sell the other guy and punishment and you were on the short list of guys who just seemed the most physically imposing who could dish out the most punishment um and it just I thought it was a perfect match. It was interesting to hear

you in the documentary series in 2017 or 18, and you're talking about AJ Styles, and you're saying, man, I'd love to work with that guy. It was kind of very Sean-esque, but then you finally end up doing the WrestleMania match with him this year, and it was a little reminiscent

of it, right? It was almost like Sean back. Yeah, it really was and and that i think that was it's funny it's funny how the cameras caught all this stuff but once again there was no plans for any kind of aj styles match or right angle or anything that was just the cameras catching me talking about whatever I was talking about. And he was on the monitor. And that just came to like, man, I wish I'd, you know, cause at that point, even then I was like, man, I don't know if I had enough. I didn't know if I had enough gas in the tank left to really make that match

work. So I didn't even, I wasn't even thinking about it. It wasn't on the radar. And that was just an honest, like, man, I would love to work with him because i think you know he's probably the best out there today aj is you know right and then lo and behold it comes around and then uh but yes to answer your question aj was is probably the closest to sean that i you know there's been you know he's he's undersized but you don, that has been, you know, he's, he's undersized, but you don't, he has that ability. There's only been a few people like, like Sean and Eddie Guerrero, AJ,

you really, you don't see like the size disparity because that's how good they are. Right. You know, and they understand, okay, I'm working with this, this giant dude, you know, I'm going to get thrown around. I'm going to get hammered, but I'm going to get my, my, I'm going to get my, my spots in here and I'm going to take advantage of them the best I can. They understood that.

And, you know, that's why they're so good. And that's why they can work with anybody. And I've always preferred, I think, my best matches. Guys like Bret Hart, Kurt Angle, Eddie Guerrero, and Shawn. My best matches were with smaller guys that got it, that understood. When you work two big guys, it's a sl slugfest and you do the same kind of things. And it's like you said, like Sean did, you know, he had his style and my style and they just happened to mesh really, really well. Were you ever worried about with those smaller guys actually like legitimately hurting them?

Because, you know, you're throwing them around like a rag doll. Like, how do you make sure it doesn't go too far? Well, I mean, you know, I don't think wrestlers get enough credit for how actually physically, you know, how physically tough

you have to be. You know, everybody has their ideas and their preconceived ideas about what professional wrestling sports entertainment is. And, you know, there's, you know, you can get people into an argument quicker than anything, like, you know, but put an MMA fan against, you know, a professional wrestling fan. It's all crap. It's all that, you know? And when I was young, that used to bother me, you know,

as I've gotten older, I was like, man, I got 20 surgeries that says, you know, this isn't, you know, this isn't, you know, this isn't easy stuff. But yeah, you know, I was physical with him, but you just, I mean, it's just being professional and being safe, you know, I was physical with him, but you just, I mean, it's just being professional and being safe, you know? I mean, and wrestling in what a lot of people really don't understand. You're always just one or two inches away from something being really catastrophic.

Yeah. You know, I mean, and it's happened. Yeah. Oh, it's happened. Yeah, exactly. I mean, and then when you think about these guys you know they're on the road 300 dates a year now so you you started equating all that all the all those bumps and all the you know and then back in the day you worked all the time whether you're hurt

you weren't hurt you know you're trying to protect something that's hurt and that's how you end up getting hurt even worse you know but uh you know i was always yeah i mean you took some abuse with me but you know i was safe i wouldn't you know i didn't throw somebody down so that they were going to land on their neck or they were they were right land awkward they were going to land hard but they were going to land flat and they were going to land safe so i mean i kind of safe. So, I mean, I kind of prided myself on being, you know, as safe as I could, as violent as I was. You know, one of the greatest athletic things I've ever seen was in the late 90s when WrestleMania was in Boston and Shawn had that match where Mike Tyson was the guest referee.

Oh, yeah. But his back was all fucked up. But he wrestled anyway. And then he got through it. The match ended. And then Triple H literally had to carry him backstage. He couldn't walk. And this was after the lights had gone out.

It was the last match. And they weren't doing it for the fans. The thing was over. And we were kind of staying, watching it, because I was there there and it was like oh he's he's really hurt like that he couldn't even get backstage and then we didn't see him again for i don't even remember when he came back but it was definitely a while after yeah it was it uh but you you just none of us had any idea until he left the ring it was like oh my god how

much pain was that dude in? Yeah. Yeah. He went into that with a serious back. I think it was a disc, something he had going on. Yeah. So when you show up in WWE in 1990 and Ric Flair is there at some point in the early 90s, but he's at a different phase of his career at this point. Right.

But still, he's the other guy people mentioned when they talk about the great, the great workers who could sell everybody. Did he, when you worked with him, what stage of his career was he in at that point? Well, that's, that's a really,

so I worked with him a little bit when I was, uh, when I was in WCW, not much, just some house show stuff. And then, uh, his first time in to WW, well not much, just some house show stuff. And then, uh, his first time in to WW, well, it was still WWF back then. Um,

I got to work a few house shows with him, but it wasn't really, I got the, the year that I worked at WrestleMania against Rick, um, you know, Vince came up to me when it was getting late, you know, it was getting late and I had, didn't have an opponent. And Vince was like, man, I'm really sorry. You know, I just, you know, we got this going on and that going on. And I completely, you know, I would say he forgot about me, but I was down on the depth chart at the time and he felt bad.

So he gave me the option of of two guys he said these are you know you can work with this guy or you can work with rick and um i said i'm gonna work with flair are you kidding me yeah this looked at me you know he was like like really he he was he was shocked that i didn't want to work with the other guy. I was like, this is a no-brainer. I want to work with Flair, you know. So Flair was just coming back after being in WCW and getting treated, you know, they just really misused and mistreated him down there. And so, you know, it was, you know, he thanked me.

He thanked me after the WrestleMania match for, he says, you've restored my confidence in myself. Wow. Yeah. It was like, you know, it took me a while to figure it out, what he meant. But I was shocked. Because I'm like you. I'm like, dude, you're Ric Flair.

Right. You're an all-time record. You're the GOAT, brother. You are. That was before everybody was the GOAT. He was the GOAT, right? And I was just blown away that his confidence was so low. And he talks about it a little bit in his documentary.

But it was such an honor for me to be in the ring, especially in WrestleMania against Nature Boy. I mean, I was like a kid in a candy store. Right. What kind of athlete were you in high school? You had to have been a good athlete. I was a good, yeah,

I was a basketball player. And, you know, I had some pretty good hops. I could get up a little bit. Were you like a power forward? Were you a post-up guy? What were you? My true position would Were you a post-up guy? What were you? My true position would have been a four, but I ended up having to play in the post most of the time.

Even back then, I was bigger. I wasn't big like I was when I got into wrestling, but for a basketball player in the late, well, in the early eighties, you know, I was 200 pounds and especially in high school, that was, that was pretty big back then. Yeah. And then, you know, then played, when I played in college, you know, I got up to about 235, 240. And, you know, I looked like, I was kind of like, I was like the, like Carl Malone, I guess, you know, how big he was. But I see, it's funny. Like I'll see pictures of, you know, back then. And I'm like, man, I look like a, I look like a giant walking stick. Yeah. I was so used to being now over, you know,

over 300 pounds for all these years. It was like, people just call me big, but, but yeah. No football for you? No, you know, I was that kid. Like, I think I would have probably had better scholarship offers if I'd have played, kept playing football tight end. Yeah. But you know, I was just like, everybody said, you got to go play football. And I'm the kid that goes, okay, I'm going to play basketball. Right. You know, kind of marched to my, you know, the beat of my own drum. Hey, here's a quick break to remind you that season one of our brand new podcast, Boom Bust, is launching on May 20th.

It is called Boom Bust, The Rise and Fall of HQ, hosted by Alyssa Bearsnack. And we dive into one of the crazier stories in recent memory, a trivia app that was seemingly worth a ton of money. And then all of a sudden it wasn't. Everything that happened, it's great. Check it out. Subscribe on Apple, on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Boom Bust, it is called.

Go check it out. I remember when you showed up in WWE. And it's funny because, I mean, God, it was 30 years ago. But when you were doing some of the stuff at your size, it just hadn't happened before. You know, the big guys from the 80s were the Hogan types. It was like clothesline, leg drop, stuff like that. And you're walking along the ring ropes.

And it was like, what is happening? Where did this guy come from? Because I didn't follow WCW at that point. He'd only been there for a couple of years anyway. He showed up and it was like an immediate impact. Yeah, that was when I got into the business and I looked at the product. I had the same takeaway as you did. All the big guys, they don't do a whole lot.

I said, okay, well, I'm pretty athletic. I was fortunate enough to work with Don Jardine a lot when I first broke in the business. John Jardine was the spoiler. Wore a mask. But he was the first one that I'd ever seen do the, well, it's called old school now. But, you know, he would take a guy and walk the ropes. I was just blown away by it. Jardine was about 6'5".

Yeah. And I was like, okay, well, as soon about six five yeah and i was like okay well as soon as he's as soon as he's gone from the business as soon as he retires i said that's mine you know and uh so so that yeah that's it's like okay i'm gonna do things i'm gonna do things that people aren't used to seeing guys my size do and it it took me a while once I got to WWE because I had to pull in the reins a little bit because it didn't necessarily work doing that stuff all the time as The Undertaker. Right. really, really slow. And I would stalk and then all of a sudden, bang, I would do something and hit a big flying clothesline or do something wrong.

People would be like, what just happened? So it took me a while to figure out how to put all that stuff in and still let the character do what it was supposed to do. Did you create the character or did you co-create it with Vince or how,

how did that work when you got to WWE? So Vince, it was Vince's, uh, creation and he, he had it and I guess he had had it for a while. He just never had the right guy. And, um, obviously he was waiting for a big guy with no personality to come off. And, uh, and, uh, so yeah, so he, he, he, he give it to me and, um, he called me, brought me up to, to Stanford, showed me the, you know, the storyboards of what is, you know, what his brainchild was there and uh

and i was like okay you know we'll see and then i just kind of started studying like okay what is this guy you know what is what is this undertaker so you know i start studying like michael myers freddy krueger and j Jason Voorhees and then trying to figure out. And then, man, I picked, I picked, uh, uh, Jake the snake's brain all the time, you know, he's so wrestling until his intelligence for a business was just second to none, especially with dark characters. Yes. I mean, so, you know, really got a lot of really nice insight from Jake.

And then, you know, as it kind of progressed and Vince knew that he could trust me, you know, then I would come to him and say, look, I want to do this with a character. You know, I think I need to move in this direction.

And fortunately, you know, our working relationship, you know it it was what it was and he let me kind of tweak and change the character as i felt like it needed to be when did you feel what was the moment that you remember when you said like what match was it when you were like, oh, this is happening. This is going to be my thing. I see the roadmap now to real success here. Yeah, that was probably... One of the first guys that I got to work with

or my big angle was with The Ultimate Warrior. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At that time, you know, warrior and Hogan were kind of, you know, they were kind of on the same plane as far as who the top, you know, who the top draw was. And back then we would run, you know, we would run two different towns a night, sometimes even three. And so warrior and I would, would headline one of the towns and then Hogan and whoever he was working with headline another town somewhere else. And I think I knew

I had kind of arrived. We did a segment. It was Paul Bearer's Funeral Parlor. And he was interviewing Warrior. And I come out of a casket, I stand up, coughing, lock Warrior into the, you know, I lock him in the casket, beat the casket all up, and just from the reactions, everybody said, okay, yeah, we're here. I'm in. Yeah, this is strong. You can just tell by the reactions of the people like, okay, we got them.

And, uh, we, you know, we were off and running. And you were like, I will be this guy for the next 30 years. I can feel it in my bones. That, that, that, there was no way that I could have ever imagined, uh, that that kind of longevity. You, so you're taking off with WWE. I was WWF then became wwe but during a really weird time for the company where it's kind of the post you have the 80s you have

the height of hogan right the the friday night made event all this great stuff and then it hits the early 90s and things start flipping and we get to the 95 96 range all of a sudden w wcw is stealing poaching guys and they have all the momentum and the guys are fleeing to wcw left and right and you were the one guy who stayed but at that point it sounds like from everything i've ever read you were like the leader behind the scenes you were like the guy every every who wwe wcw whoever there's always that one guy who's kind of running the locker room when did you become that guy what year when was it uh i guess it was it was it was somewhere in that in that era, probably a little before. We were getting our butts kicked.

I mean, ratings-wise, everything, we were just getting hammered. It's just like the guys that stayed or the guys that were still there, we're just like, you know what, what we're gonna dig ourselves out of this and uh you know it's gonna i don't i always knew it would you know it was we would come back out on top but yeah it was just gonna be how long it took and you know how bad it was gonna have to get before big changes were made um but it you know that was something else. I mean, it just kind of happened and it was like the way I looked at things, um, you know, and people ask me, why didn't you, you know, why didn't you jump ship when you could have? And it was like, well, one, those guys down there told me before I went to, before I had, you know,

before I went to WWE, WWF at the time, you know, they said I went in to renegotiate a contract, right? I'd been there about a year and my contract was coming due. So I go in and meet with Jim Hurd, who was running, he was running at WCW at the time, Oli Anderson, Jim Barnett. And I'm looking for just a little bit of a bump, you know, just a little bump in pay. I'm still, you know, I'm still relatively, you know, green.

I've only been around for a few years and I'm just looking for a little extra cheese. Right. Yeah. They go, no, I don't think so. So we're going to resign you at your current deal. And they go, they go, look, no one's ever going to pay money to see you wrestle. You're a good athlete. You're a really good athlete, but no one's going to ever pay money to see you wrestle. Like, oh, okay. Okay.

That stung a little bit. And then. So you're never going back after that? Yeah, once i left and and all vince ever does and he gives you an opportunity he doesn't promise you like man i'm gonna make you this i'm gonna make you that he says i'm gonna give you an opportunity to do something and that's what he did with me he gave me an opportunity to to to opportunity to be a success in this industry.

I was like, hey, he believed in me. He gave me an opportunity. That's all I needed. When did you become the leader of the locker room then? I'm always fascinated about that dynamics because it's basically like an NBA team or an NFL team or a

baseball team. You have dozens of wrestlers. You might have 50 wrestlers in an event. You might even have more than that. But somebody kind of has to be the alpha dog if somebody's fucking up in the ring, if somebody's putting somebody in harm's way, if somebody's not following whatever the instructions of that day were.

There needs to be somebody that kind of puts everybody in place. You became that person. Yeah, I would, it would probably, I'd have to say probably around that 95, 96, you know, that, that time period in there is when it really, I guess, became, uh, you know, it became a talking point. I mean, maybe I was doing it beforehand, but you know, it was just like, to me, it was, you know, and believe me, I had, I had plenty of good times and, and, you know, I burned that midnight oil and everything else,

but nothing came before business. I don't care how late you stayed out the night before or what you did at bell time is go time. And, you know, you don't come in and, you know, you don't, you're not, you're not going to be hung over or you're not going to drag ass because, you know, you had a, you had a pretty good night's night before, you know, and that's kind of how I think it started. And then, you know, it was just like, then just kind of, you know,

people would, they, they trusted me, I guess, because I had a, you know, like I had this connection with Vince, um, you know, and you normally want to, when, when, like when you're one of the talent has, you know, is tight with somebody in the office, right. You know, well they're a stooge, you know, or they're, you know, okay, well, they're a snitch or, you know, I never got that because everybody knew i think i was i was able to i could go and talk with vince or whoever or whatever agent or you

know and then i could also talk to our talent and and and like give them you know my perspective and you know what i had seen you know what i've been through at that time and i think they they appreciated the fact that, you know, I didn't play one side against the other, you know, but I was a pretty good, I was a pretty good spot to start, you know, like when guys were, you know, when they had issues or they didn't like the way they were being booked or they didn't, you know, they would bounce things off of me.

Or they want to know how to handle a certain situation. And, you know, they would bounce things off of me. Um, or they want to know how to handle a certain situation. And, you know, it just kind of grew from there. Um, but I think everyone knew that if you and I were to have a conversation in the locker room, that's where it would stop, you know? Right. You know, and, and if somebody was doing something that they shouldn't be doing, or if they were getting in trouble or, you know, and, and if somebody was doing something that they shouldn't be doing, or they were getting in trouble or, you know, not paying bar tabs or not doing whatever they needed to, you know, they knew as soon as I found out they were going to, you know, they knew they were going to get it, you know? So there was that, just that, that trust factor and,

and that, uh, you know, I was, what I said is what I meant. And, you know, I'm not like gonna, I'm not going to go run off and say, Oh, you're not going to believe what so-and-so is doing. You know, it sounds like I handled it internally. Most times, you know, I handled things in the locker room before they ever got to, um, you know, before they ever had to go to management. Was the underlying theme of this, if we're going to settle this disagreement now,

and if we don't settle it, we're going to really settle it right now? Was there a physical component to it? It really never had to go that far, really. Yeah. It was implied. Like I said presented myself or i never as a bully now i've got people's faces and let them you know but normally i didn't try to if i knew it might lead to something you know aggressive like that normally i take somebody away from the group

yeah right that makes sense. You know, back in the day, it was always like, you always knew something bad was going to happen if you got, like if somebody said, hey,

can I talk to you in the shower? You know, you had to walk into the shower like looking over your shoulder because you didn't know if you were going to get sucker punched or whatever. So if there was somebody,

you know, a lot of times if there was a case where somebody really screwed up, you know, I'd pull them aside and then say, look, man, this ain't going to fly. You know, you can't do this and all that. I wouldn't intentionally on more serious issues. I wouldn't embarrass people in front of the, you know, the rest of the guys. Now, there were certain times where that kind of worked,

you know, you kind of, as we call it, we kind of rib on the square where, yeah, I'm kind of making this a joke, but if you look deep enough into me, you know that I'm, I'm trying to make light of this before it has to, you know, before we got to make that trip to the shower, you know? So. So here's an example. So have michaels who's been really honest about yeah i acted like an in the mid in the mid 90s like i definitely was a problem behind the scenes he's talked about it and him and bret hart they're doing a whole you know seven

eight month thing they're not getting along right um and it's just getting more and more contentious is that a situation where you feel like you have to step in and like smooth it over or grab the two of them and be like let's all go to lunch no see at that time so brett you know so brett had more tenure on me yeah well he was at that time especially so there yeah there's certain guys like you know uh now i always always got along with brett but but brett really more of a kind of a quiet leader you know like he took the business very seriously uh and you know that that's kind of the way he led. So, you know, that part there, I had to be, you know, kind of careful. Because I didn't have the, you know, I wasn't there long enough yet to say, hey, man, you guys need to cut the shit, you know.

I wouldn't mind breaking it up. But, you know, I was still, you know, like I said, Brett was more up, but I was still, like I said, Brett was more tenured than I was. There's that whole respect level with me and the guys that come before me. What was your reaction when everything finally blew up, the famous match when Vince basically steals the title from Brett because he's leaving and that turns into a whole thing, which basically is the best thing that ever happened

to WWE in that decade. Yeah, it was, I was pissed. You know, I was pissed about the whole thing because I felt like there I could have, I possibly could have been used to get what we needed. Yeah. Like, you know, take Sean out of this. Let me do it.

And then I'll do business on the other side. Right. And I think Brett probably would have went for that. You know, I mean, there was such disdain at that time between the two of them. And, you know, and Brett, you know, was going, you know, Brett was leaving. Um, but I, I was just kind of, at that point I was like, you know, if you'd like, if you did this kind of come to me with this too, you know, and I mean, it's his company and, you know, I mean, he did what he thought was best, but I was like, dude, I think I could have helped this whole thing.

I'm right here. I'm right here. And, you know, I'm going to do business and, you know, but it happened. And I was really pissed. Like, you know, the next day, you know, I don't know, we were supposed to show up by noon for a TV day. I don't know. I think I rolled in about five the next day because I didn't know. I was so pissed about the whole thing and the way it went down.

I had to really gather myself because that was my intention. When I got there, I was like, I'm going off on somebody about this. Well, you love Vince, too. I mean, Vince had done right by you, and you're probably disappointed in him, right? Yeah, I'm really disappointed in the whole situation, and I don't want to put myself, like, I was so angry. Like, I don't want to go in there and start, you know, I mean, believe me, Vince and I have had our disagreements,

and, you know, we've had our, but it was more, the issues were more centered around, you know, what I had going on and not what somebody else was doing. You know what I mean? But I also always look at the big picture before I look at my own thing. I look at the big picture of, you know, it's what's the cliche, what's best for business. Right. So, but I was like, Oh man, if I, if I if i go i'm i'm going in there raising hell and i'm not sure that you know i want to do that so it took me all day long to finally figure out okay you got to calm down and you got to hear his side of it you know by that point i you know i'd already talked with brett and you know everything had already happened you know the fight everything else all that had already

already happened and so yeah brett punched up yeah yeah so i had to figure out okay well i need to hear i need to hear vince's side of this and then give my perspective and then at least you know say look this kind of shit happens again you you've got to involve me here because it doesn't have to go down like this. And he agreed and I guess it all worked out. It was sad because I'm really tight with Brett, you know.

Brett could have done some things differently. Sean could have done things differently. Vince could have done things differently. It could have been just like you said. I mean, that's one of the great wrestling stories of that era and that decade. The Montreal Screwjob, you know. It's one of the best. The way it worked out

was one of the great outcomes in the history of the business, because not only you established Vince as now this villain, where now it's crossing over real life into storylines and things like that, but also Brett leaving was good for the WWE, because you know, it opened...

They had a lot of talent back then. It opened the door for some people to get bigger shine too, which sometimes in sports and in wrestling, sometimes it's good when somebody leaves. Sometimes you have the talent that can step in. Yeah. But there again, on that issue, and I agree with you to a certain degree,

but there's also that point where mean, that issue, and I agree with you to a certain degree, but, you know, there's also that point where, you know, when we came up, it's just like, hey, that's, those are the guys, the guys on top, those are the guys you're shooting for. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? That's okay. This, these are the guys that are making the money. If you want to make the money, then that's why the Attitude Era was so just awesome. I mean, you're talking about stacked. I mean, that roster was just stacked. And, of course, you know, Steve was at the top. And you had Rock there.

You had Triple H there. You had Mick Foley there. You had Undertaker, Kane, just, you know Rock there. You had Triple H there. You had Mick Foley there. You had Undertaker, Kane, just, you know. Yeah. And, you know, it was just like everybody was scratching and clawing to try to, you know, get that top spot or be in that top spot with Steve, you know. It's almost like the NBA

because I was thinking about that watching the Michael Jordan doc when he wins his first three titles in the early nineties, the league's just stacked. There's just hall of famers everywhere. And I look at that late nineties thing where, you know, wrestling kind of ebbs and flows depending on who the best seven or eight guys are at a given time.

And in that time, it's just hall of famers all over the place. And then you have the rock on the way up. Who's probably, I would say all all things considered, mic skills, just everything. Probably the most naturally talented wrestler we have. Would you agree with that?

Yeah, Rock obviously was a tremendous athlete, had the look. But I mean, Rock's deal was at mic skills. That's what set him apart from everybody. He was just so entertaining, you know? I've never seen anything like it because when he was on the rise, you're like, this guy's going to be like an actor. He was the one guy I've ever seen in wrestling where it's like,

he's clearly leaving at some point and going to make movies. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, he probably made the right decision to leave. Yeah. You could just tell, though, with him. I think he got one of the first little bit roles that he got. You knew it was only a matter of time. He just had too much personality and too much charisma, you know.

And then I think, you know, he had that desire to go do that. Obviously, he had the desire to do it, and he did. Well, and then you had one of your most famous matches during that stretch, too, when you almost killed Mick Foley. That's still the craziest bump I've ever seen in my life. The one off or the one through? What was the one where his tooth went through his nose?

See, so that was the one where I chokeslammed him through the top of his cell. Yeah, that one. So that cell wasn't supposed to break like that. Right. Right. So it was only supposed to give way. I don't think people know that.

I don't think people know. Some do, some don't. But as we're up there on the top walking around, now, like, I'd already had that match once with Sean. But Sean, you know, is half of what Mick weighs weighs and, you know, half of what, you know, and I'm, like I said, at the time I'm three 15, three 20 and mix probably, I don't know, probably two 80. And we're walking around on those, those chain link panels.

And you can hear the, the wire that has them fastened to the pole. And you can hear them. They're just shooting off, right? And as you step, you can just like, whoa. I don't remember that. Oh, my God. I don't remember that from the first time I was up here with Sean, right? And I swear to the fortune, I'm just really fortunate.

Right before I chokeslam him, like I step off of the panel and'm just really fortunate right before i chokeslam him like i step off of the panel and step onto the to the the poles if i hadn't you go in we could have had a we could have had a really really far worse outcome and it was pretty bad as it was but yes so he landed, his incisor went through his lip and then lodged in his nose, right? He loved it. He's the happiest anyone ever would have been with that outcome. He's like laughing. So, you know, he is like,'s on, he's in Lulu land. It just right after that. Right.

And I can tell I'm looking in his eyes and it looks like a slot machine. I mean, he he's, his eyes are going, I'm like, and I'm hitting him. And I'm telling him like, Mick, let's go, let's go home, man. You're yeah. He's like, just give me a second. Give me a second. But like you just get, sometimes you just get distracted by the weirdest things. I'm like, there's this, what I thought was just a giant booger in his nose. Right.

And I'm like, Oh, it's just disgusting. And then finally, you know, he realizes it's his tooth. Oh my God. He takes the tooth and hands it to the rest.

Unbelievable. Only in wrestling, man. He just took his tooth out of his nose and uh but yeah man it just it put a hole right through his lip and that's where it stopped you know but i mean it's a famous moment everybody's seen it i'm sure it's been viewed a kajillion times on youtube i think the part people don't fully understand unless you've actually been to one of these events and been like on the ground for us, how high that cage is. Cause on TV it's, it's like, Oh, that seems high.

But when you're actually like, cause I remember a couple of years ago, Shane McMahon did that flying elbow jump off the top of the cage and it was right in front of us. And I actually thought he was going to die in midair. Like it's, it's five feet further than you think it is. And you're watching, you're like, Oh my God, what's that? You almost think the guy's going to do like a three 60. It's so far. It's there's way too much margin in my book. There's way too much margin of error for that. You know, shame felt like it was,

I was in that match too. So, you know, there's a recurring theme here, but like, I was like, I didn't want any part of it.

And that cage, that cage is five foot taller than the one that Mick, that I threw Mick off of. Yeah. So, I mean, that thing is just,

I mean, he looked like a little ant when I was laying there at the table looking up at him. I mean, he didn't look that big. That's just because of how far away he was. And then that's a really small, hard landing area at that desk, you know? Well, that's the other thing I think about with 98 to 03 basically. The bumps just started. And ECW

had something to do with this too, I think, because they're pushing the envelope. It becomes every show has to kind of outdo the last one. 15 feet isn't high enough anymore. Let's do 17 feet. Let's try to get 20.

And on top of it, that's when the whole steel Let's do 17 feet. Let's try to get 20. And on top of it, that's when the whole, the steel chair's in the head and nobody's realizing that could be potentially dangerous too. The amount of punishment just in that four-year span that everybody is taking is like bonkers to look back at. Oh, yeah. I look back at some of that stuff and just think, my goodness.

It's amazing that there weren't more really, really serious injuries. And some of the stuff they were doing at ECW, I mean, it was completely off the chain. Right. Dangerous. At least with our group, I mean, we had, you know, we had a stunt guy there. And, I mean, it doesn't change the fact that it's a super dangerous thing, but at least you have somebody there that tells you the practicality of what might happen. And, you know, like, you might not want to do it that way. You might not want to, you know.

There, I think it was just like hey it's a free for all and um yeah it's really amazing that we didn't get more guys really seriously injured during that time period that was also right around that time you you switched gimmicks a little bit right and you became the american badass you basically retired the undertaker for a couple years for yeah for basically i mean i kept i kept a little bit of it a few elements but for the most part i don't think i don't think i would have been able to survive the attitude era in that that mainstream undertaker character at the time because i mean if you look back at that stuff i mean there there were the

shackles were off man i mean it was a you know there was nothing the interviews i mean they were cutting edge and they were you know they were real and it would have been tough for me to to stay so locked into that you know as great as the gimm is, there's a lot of confines to the gimmick. There's a lot of things that I can do and I can't do. When you got somebody like Stone Cold out there cutting promos and rock calling everything, Mickey Mouse,

they would eat me alive. With American Badass, it tied into your real personality way more. It was like, oh mean, I could have done what I could. Well, the American Badass, it tied into your real personality way more. It was like, oh, wow, look at this. I mean, yeah. I mean, I, you know, all the bikes and I've rode motorcycles all my life. So, yeah, it was, it was just, it was Mark Calloway pumped up, you know, a few notches.

Yeah. And it was, it was, it was fun because it was kind of, it just let me loose for a little while. You know, it let me cut promos and it let me talk shit. It let me do things that I hadn't been able to do. And then what it allowed me to do is to go back to the character and make that character fresh all over again. But, you know, even when I went back to The Undertaker, I retained some of the style that I worked. I kind of kept some of the American badass style.

I kind of just kept interweaving the two characters as we've moved along through all these years. Hey, I wanted to take a break to tell you about a couple relatively new ringer podcasts. The first one is called The Wire Way Down in the Hole. It's hosted by Van Lathan and Jamel Hill. They're slowly plowing through five seasons of The Wire. They're hitting the tail end of season one right now. I just had this terrible feeling something bad's going to happen to Wallace, but check that out. The Wire, Way Down in the Hole.

If you love The Wire, this podcast is really good. Another one that is really good that we have, Behind the Billions, hosted by Brian Koppelman and David Levine, the co-creators and showrunners of Billions. Every Sunday night after you watch Billions on Showtime, I loved last week's episode, by the way, you can hear them break it down almost like a director's commentary of the show. So that's happening. And then TV Concierge, our new show exclusively on Spotify, little 12 to 15 minute reviews of TV shows that we're watching. And then finally, one last one,

Flying Coach with Steve Kerr and Pete Carroll, which is not necessarily a pop culture podcast, although it has veered in that way, but they're doing that one once a week, and that one's really great, and all proceeds are going to charity for that as well. So that's what's new on the Ringer podcast front for us. Let's go back to The Undertaker. So we head into the mid-2000s, and you're one of the guys carrying the company

in the NBA like I look at Michael Jordan it's like what was his peak year? 92 probably. Athletically he's the best but 97, 98 he's figured out more of the mental game. What was, if you look back what was your peak year?

What was the year where you had the athleticism combined with the complete understanding of what was your peak year what was the year where you were had the athleticism combined with a complete understanding of what was going on i would say probably um i don't know that i could just like say one peak year but i i'd say pretty much from as far as the understanding of the business and feeling like there was nothing that came up that I couldn't, I would say two 2003 to 2008. I felt like, yeah,

I felt like, I mean, I had a, I had a pretty good grip on, you know, I could, I could go out without, you know,

having any kind of knowledge about the other guy and have a match that, you know, people would be, you know, like, Whoa, that, you know, that any kind of knowledge about the other guy and have a match that, you know, people would be, you know, like, Whoa, that, you know,

that was good stuff. And I was still, you know, I could still move, uh, you know, I could still move really well at that time. And I think that's like,

that's what's so hard now. Like when I go back and watch, you know, I grade myself on, on those years. Right. Like, wow, man, you could move and, you know, I got to watch these stuff. Like, you know i grade myself on on those years right like wow man you could move and you know

i gotta watch these stuff like you know the the wrestlemania with roman i was like whoa what the hell happened there you know and i don't i don't give myself the benefit of like grading on the curve yeah it's just like okay that's what i should be doing. And, you know, and this is what I'm actually doing. How aware were you of just the mortality of a wrestling career? Because when you came up, think about the guys that were there in 1990, like Hogan's there, Ric Flair, Ultimate Warrior, those guys come and go.

Then you have the Bret Hart, Stone Cold, all those guys, those guys come and go. You're still there. When do you start looking internally and going, oh, shit, I might be nearing that point, too, that I saw with all these other guys? Yeah, that was probably shortly, probably in the middle, probably the middle of the of the sean and triple h

matches there i felt pretty good i felt pretty good for the sean match the first one uh i felt you know i could kind of i could sense that i wasn't you know i wasn't moving exactly the same way that i used to but i could still get it you know i could still get it, you know, I could still get it done. And, um, but it was really, I think it was. So after the first triple H match, not the one in Houston, but out of that, that, that force, that four series with, uh, with Sean and, and that's when I had my first hip fixed. And, um, yeah, I was, I was like, okay.

And that kind of gave me a little bit of life. But then, because when you get things going on like that with your hips, and your gait gets off, everything. Yeah, it's like structural. You're like a building. It's like knocking out a floor of a building. And now you're off out of whack. Yeah, you're out of whack.

So you get that one side fixed, and then it doesn't take long for the other side. You have to kind of relearn how to walk. Since that first tip, it's really been a struggle to try and keep yourself not only healthy, but at a level to perform. 20 surgeries for you? Closing in, probably. Yeah, but at a level to perform. 20 surgeries for you? Closing in, probably. Yeah, I'm probably close to 20.

So both hips, knee? I've had scopes. I need to do something with my right knee now. That's my number one issue now is my right knee. So my hips, and the only reason i got to continue working was they did a thing called the birmingham hip resurface i did in in uh in new york as well obviously if you saw the dr sue did that and what yeah it was graphic if you don't think about hip surgeries or hip replacements you know normally they come in there they cut the femur off and then they put that big, huge metal prosthesis in there.

Well, if I'd had that, then my career would have pretty much been over. And that's what I thought that it was going to happen. And I thought that was going to happen in about 2011. uh, I just couldn't, by 2011, like if I'm standing up and on my feet for most of the day, by the end of the day, I couldn't stand anymore. I just had searing pain down my leg. So I go and see, uh, my, my main orthopedic surgeon is Dr. Bird. He's the team physician for the Titans, Tennessee Titans. And I said, all right, Dr. Bird, I think, you know, I think, you know, it's time. I can't, you know, I can't do this anymore. And he goes, Mark, he goes, it was time five years ago.

He says, I don't know how you've lasted on what you got this long. And I was like, okay, you know, and I, so I'd come to grips with my mortality and, and, uh, so I would, when he's in, like I said, he's in Nashville. So I come home and I was like, all right, well, the career's over. I don't need this hair anymore. So I shaved my hair off. And the day after I shaved my hair off, he calls me and he goes, uh, Hey Mark, I just thought of something. There's this doctor in New York who's doing this thing called the hip, the Birmingham hip resurface. And he says,

I think you might be a really good candidate for this surgery. At this time, they'd only been doing it. They'd been doing the surgery for less than 10 years. And, uh, he goes, I think you'd be a good candidate. I think you ought to go see him. And he says, then you can make up your mind one way or another. So I go see Dr. Sue in New York and, you know, he does a bone density test and everything. He said, you're a great candidate. He goes, I said, well, I said, if this goes well, I plan on getting back in the ring. And he looked at me and he goes, well, he goes, I will say this.

He says, that would be the biggest test that anybody has put on this, you know, this, this surgery, this hip, you know? And I said, well, that's where we're at. So I did the surgery, came home, rehabbed and started training. And that was between, that was between the two Triple H matches that happened. I came back and everything worked out fine. Basically, what they do is they take the head of the femur. They shave it all down to get all the arthritis off of it,

all the spurs out of the joint. Then they put a titanium cap over the bone. Instead of cutting the bone off, they just put a cap over it and then they go into the acetabulum and they hammer their same kind of titanium cup in there and it it's i mean it's it's amazing it's like it's like taking the top like when you i have one i don't know the company sent me one i wish i could knew exactly where it was i'd show it but because it's just amazing like you can take the part that goes on the bone and you can put it in the cup and you can spin it it spins like a top that's how

it's amazing i wish i said i wish well we should we should mention that your pain tolerance is pretty legendary like even even in that foley, we're talking about you had a broken foot, right? Yeah. I went into that match with a broken foot and, uh, uh, you're jumping from the top of the cage down to the ring, which is, yeah, you can see me kind of give. Yeah. You can see when I land that I kind of, Ooh, you know? Yeah.

Oh, I forgot that broken foot. At that point I was like, I was more concerned whether or not Nick was breathing or not to worry about my foot. Um, yeah, I've been, I've got a pretty high pain tolerance and, you know, most times I think it's a blessing, but then there's other times you think like, you know, maybe you, you know, you're, maybe you're tougher than you are smart. And, uh, you know, it's, maybe you're tougher than you are smart. And, uh, you know, it's kind of what we're dealing with now in this whole process is like, you know, are, what are you doing to yourself? Looking, you know, trying to get this, this match that you want to have and this, this

ending that you want, what are you doing long term and well and then also like the difference between 25 years 30 years 32 years at some point the the incredible career is the incredible career like how long do you keep adding to it exactly um you know and you know there's this the chance to now at this point like i always you know i'm really cognizant of like, I don't want to do damage to what, you know, the legacy that I have. Like, I don't want people. It was so sad about, you know, Ali at the end, you know, he had all those great fights, but he, you know, cause he got screwed out of all of his money. He kept fighting. And then, you know, there's this guy that we're just hammering the head. he, you know, because he got screwed out of all of his money, he kept fighting and, you know,

there's just guys that were just hammering him in the head. No, you know, I'm a huge boxing fan, right? Yeah. Me too. You know, I always cried watching Larry Holmes beat Muhammad Ali and Holmes looking at the ref

like, are you going to stop this or not? You know? Remember the Sports Illustrated cover after that? And it's just Ali sitting in his corner, just faces all swollen. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah, same thing.

And it's funny with boxing, and I think MMA a little bit too, they always have to have like the two extra fights before they realize that they're actually done like they need to get the shit kicked out of them two extra times then it's like oh i must be done yeah like really only haggar is the only one who out of all my favorites is the only one who never had those two extra fights. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I loved Hagler, man. Gosh, dang. I love watching him fight.

That fight with him and Hearns is the greatest four rounds ever. They just showed it on ABC a couple weeks ago. I think it's the greatest 10 minutes of all time. Whatever it is, 11 minutes. That was just awesome.

It was almost like it was scripted. You know what else is amazing? Hagler-Leonard, which was such an iconic fight. Right. It's like a week. It's a week after Andre Hogan. It's one way or the other. Yeah, it's one weekend was Andre Hogan,

then the next weekend is Hagler-Leonard. Wow. Pretty crazy spring. Hey, before we go, I wanted to you have such a fascinating relationship with Vince McMahon. I think it seems like, you know, a lot of people have a lot of complicated feelings about him. I personally have had a great relationship with him, but you seem to have the best relationship with him. but you seem to have the best relationship with him.

Why is your relationship the best with him? You know, I don't know. I think, you know, one, this business leads to a lot of, between talent and, you know, it used to be back in the day we used to call them the booker right the booker you know and so there's always there's always been this bread this this kind of contentiousness between the talent and the you know and the management and um i don't know i think it's probably just the trust level and the fact that you know just through the years like one like i never forget that he gave me that opportunity that you know that's and a lot of people call me silly and naive because you should go i should go i should

go for the money right well that's not the way i'm i'm wired whether it be good or it be bad it happened to work out okay for me but i just think i think you know he always knew no matter what that he could trust me and in turn i could never say that there's been a time that, you know, that he's screwed me over. And so even like our relationship today, I mean, he's still my boss, obviously, but we hardly ever talk business anymore. I, there's usually somebody else that like, if I have an issue with something, I deal with somebody else. And then, you know, me and him, we talk more as, you know, as friends. And unless something big comes up, you know, or, you know, if he wants me to work WrestleMania, then he, you know, he'll usually, nobody else will call me. He has to force himself to call me.

But I think it's just the trust and then um just being through so much stuff together you know yeah i was with him i was with him during the trial back in the day um yeah funny story about that he had all that going on right like he had the bodybuilding thing and then the trial and all of it's just really going to hell so he was at the time like a big he's a big redskins fan right washington redskin i'm a big dallas cowboy fan right even with all that going on we made a bet right because you know dallas plays washington twice a year anyway yeah so we just made a casual you know a casual bet over a hundred bucks who was going to win the game as usual cowboys win uh and he was he was in the middle of going back and

forth in the trial he sent somebody to tv he wasn't going to be there. He sent somebody with $100 in pennies to pay me off. I mean, with the whole world potentially just caving in on him. You could look at that man, honestly, and everything could be just going completely to shit. And you ask him how his day is. It's fucking great. I mean, how can you not? I mean, there's just, that's just how he is.

And, you know, and, and I guess I have a lot of that, you know, so I wear a few more emotions on my sleeve than he does, but I mean, I, I, we're, we're very similar that way. With my pain tolerance, I can be in excruciating pain. I'll be able to sit here and have this conversation with you. We just have a lot of similarities in our personalities. I think it's just years of trust and I don't know. I didn't realize

until I watched the documentary that you guys had such a deep friendship that you get hurt in the Lesnar match and he leaves WrestleMania. Yeah. I was like... He literally goes to the hospital and takes off and just like

alright you guys handle the rest of WrestleMania. I'm leaving. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, evidently I told him I, I, I, I, like I cut him, I cut a promo on him and I don't remember doing any of this, but I cut a promo on him. Like, don't you have, you know, don't you have a show or something to run? Why are you here? I don't remember any of it. It's what my wife told me happened. And, um, but yeah what do you think what do you think is the most misunderstood thing about him i think most people think he's uh like a just this this tyrant and you know he's uh he really and you only get to see it, I guess, if you're close to him,

but I mean, he's just like for years, he's such a giving person. He really is just, he's a really kind giving person. He knows how to run business, obviously, but he's just a genuinely caring and giving person. Like for years, he didn't, all the charities that we worked with, there was no publicity about any of it. You know, I mean, we worked with Make-A-Wish Foundation for years

and you never heard a word about it. He just, because it wasn't, that's not what he was, that was not what he was about. It was from his heart, you know. And, you know, it's like tribute to the troops. I mean, every year, whether it be Iraq or Afghanistan,

he was on that plane with us. I mean, that's something you just, I don't think people realize what a big heart that he has and, and, uh, and how much he cares about the people around him. So do you,

do you think he's one of those guys that he just keeps doing this until he dies I'm retiring like it's just this is it yeah he loves it he loves it he loves that product and he loves working out

right and his grandkids and his family yeah he just loves it loves working out right those are his and you know and his grandkids and his family yeah i mean that's that he just loves it and he's you know he's what what's the answer he's like 75 he's 75 yeah and he's just like like the energizer bunny man you know it's crazy 99 his mom is 99. His mom is 99 and was still playing tennis at 97. His son is almost 50 jumping off 25-foot cages and throwing elbow drops. They got some crazy gene there that the rest of us don't have. I hope no one's waiting on him to kick so that they can take over.

He'll outlive me. But yeah, I hope no one's waiting on him to kick so that they can take over because he's going to be there. He'll outlive me. I forgot to ask you. This probably was important because we're in the middle of a pandemic and all. The wrestling industry right now, just trying to do shows and events with no fans, you had probably the most memorable match of WrestleMania, the Boneyard match but

wrestling with no fans really made me realize turns out fans are really important with wrestling like entrance music crowd noise it's like oh shit you just take for granted and it's like wow this is weird

it is bizarre I think it worked better for UFC because there were different things you could hear the corner man it seems like it's still feeling its way wow, this is weird. It is bizarre. I think it worked better for UFC because there were different things. You could hear the corner man. It seems like it's still feeling its way with WWE how to do this. How do you think they've handled it so far?

I think they're making the best out of a really horrible situation. Obviously, you feed, you know, you feed so much off of your audience. And you use their energy a lot to propel you through you know your promos and and matches and and things like that and you can still see you know during the shows that sometimes you just can't they can't help it they gotta you'll still see them look to the crowd and it's just and it's an empty warehouse it is so bizarre like i did want to lead up to to wrestlemania i did uh i did one segment in the at the warehouse and um like and i was trying to be animated and

and you know and pissed off about something that AJ had said. And I'm storming around the ring and I'm just thinking, I'm trying to draw on all the memories of sold out crowds. And on one hand, I'm trying to draw those memories, but then I'm walking around and it's just like, there's nothing there other than the camera guy. It is so bizarre. And it gives you perspective on how much that you do count on your fan base and the people being there it's just because a lot of times if you're

cutting a promo or something on somebody you want to make eye contact with somebody and you know it's easier to make it really personal if you can but with nobody there it's it's it's strange well maybe think that the crowd is actually the single most important wrestling character because the wrestlers can trade but can change but the the actual the noise the ebb and flow when the crowd turns on somebody when they don't like a match i yeah you you gauge so much of your own reaction watching something from what the fans think. Absolutely. And to just remove that,

it's so surreal to watch. What is it, just out of curiosity, what was the best crowd? We're talking 35 years of wrestling for you. What was the single best crowd? Man, I tell you what. Because you've wrestled everywhere. I mean, even go back to the Astrodome

and places like that. Yeah. Arenas that aren't even, and domes that don't even exist anymore. Yeah. So that crowd in the Astrodome was pretty live. Of course, I'm from Houston originally, so that was pretty special. But that crowd in Dallas at Texas Stadium, man, that place was rocking, too. You know, 100,000 people. Oh, people oh wrestlemania yeah oh i was there yeah that was amazing yeah that i mean that was just an ocean of people and

you know that was the largest crowd that i'd ever worked in front of um i tell you what in any i tell you what you know i used to love to work you work when the card was sold out at the Garden, the Boston Garden and Madison Square. Those places, when they're full and the business is really thriving, those places are just awesome to work. The fans, they come to have a good time. And I talk about it a little bit in the in the doc like when you go to the gardens you got to bring it right right and if you bring it they're going to love you and they're they're going to show you that they're going to show you that love and that appreciation man but you sneak it up and you are going to hear it you Yeah. So it's, it's, you know, and, and the, and then in Madison square is, is, you know, it was always cool.

It was the first, it was the first one that put all the big pictures of people that had performed there on the walls, you know, the line, the halls, they were the first one I think to do that. And, um, where I dress normally at the garden, when I came out right before I go to the, uh, you know, area where we used to come out on the side, there was, there's a big picture of, uh, of Elvis. And then right next to Elvis was Ali, which I was a big Elvis fan and a big Ali fan. Right. So those were like two of the last two things that that I

saw Elvis at the garden Ali at the garden against Frazier and then boom it was time to you know turn into the undertaker and go out so I mean that was just like all those years that I worked there that was kind of my routine right before I would go out. I would look at those pictures and, you know, go out. Those MSG crowds and some of the stuff's on YouTube now, like the Spectrum, MSG, Boston Garden, Chicago Stadium. Right. Which they only, WWE wasn't there that often, but all those kind of basketball arenas with the old setup

before you had the suites. Right. And the fans are just losing their shit. Like you go back and you see the Bruno matches from the early seventies or, you know, even some of Hogan's earlier stuff, but the, the back one stuff is where it really gets nuts.

Cause you know, he's kind of, he even held the title for five years and barely gets mentioned anymore, but was fighting all these awesome villains from late 70s on and the crowd is just losing their minds during it it's unbelievable like it's like life or death it just it'll never be that way again i don't know why it was like that in the late 70s but um it was just different the business was protected back then you know it and you know i'm kind of the last of the guys that tried to protect protect the business yeah now you know

it's and i get it i mean it's just it is it's you know things progress and and it's the state of things but you know back then it was then it was just, there was just less, there was less knowledge. Now there's so much, you know, everybody knows everything. You know, everybody knows what's going on behind, you know, what goes on behind the scenes. And, you know, our fan base, they want to know what's going on in their personal lives. So everybody's on Instagram and Twitter.

You know, there's so much that you just, there's nothing, you know, and back then, you know, half the people still thought it was a shoot, you know, you know, I would say it was more than half. Oh yeah. Probably. Yeah. I would say it was like 90%. And you know, and now we kind of go out of our way to make sure that people know that it's not. You know, it just kind of took a little bit, I think, of the mystique

and just the feel of it. You know, now everybody, like I said, everybody knows everything. And it's hard. I remember Dave Meltzer when he was writing for The National, the sports newspaper, and he was writing about wrestling. And it was the first time somebody was writing for the national the sports newspaper and he was writing about wrestling and

it was the first time somebody was writing about wrestling and reading and being like wait what the fuck wait what wait and there was this whole inner game but it didn't really come out until the mid 90s when the when the internet starts and then the message boards. And then you could feel wrestling trying to account for it where you'd have these Monday Night Raws but the fans knew somebody was going to show up that night because they'd read it on a message board and they're chanting

for the wrestler who's not even introduced yet and then the announcers have to pretend they have no idea this guy's going to come out and you just feel it shift. And then they figured it out. It took a couple couple years i just remember being a fan as a kid like there was there was no internet you know you you had to wait till that show came on or if you went to the you know if you went to the event live like i grew up in houston used to go to the sam houston coliseum and and watch it there But that was all the content you got.

So, you know, and then if you want to know what was going on around the country, then you had to wait until one of the magazines came out, like, you know, Wrestling Illustrated or to know what's going on in the Carolinas or Florida or, you know, or Minnesota. I just, you know, I get it, but I wish there was a little bit of that left. Yeah. I wish there was a little bit more mystique, but there's this, you know, we try to do things now and I don't,

I have this conversation with Vince all the time. I was like, how, how, how do they find out? Like it has to, there has to be some kind of internal leak somewhere because you can't do anything that surprises me. I mean, it's virtually impossible anymore. So it only leads to be like, who lets this stuff out? Why? Why is it accepted?

I thought about that during the Jordan doc. Part of what made him so great was there was a real mystique about him. We knew him, but we didn't really know him. He was in commercials. Other than that, he did press conferences, but there was still this mystery. What's this guy really like? But now you think of LeBron, who's the best player now, and we know everything. He's on Instagram.

He's producing different things and he's just present and available and you have a feel i know his kids taco tuesday right and that's just kind of what life's like now in 2020 so i feel like wrestling representing that and all the reality shows i mean they fuck 20 30 wrestlers have their own uh reality show at some point at this so you were kind of the last one you were the last one who folded yeah and it's funny right so i guess i got a social media account it's probably been less than two years right i finally said you know i mean you know the writing was on the wall i know i got you know i got more matches behind me than i do in front of me. And people are saying like, dude, you need to get yourself out there because your wrestling career is coming to an end.

Now it's time to cash in on the brand, the stuff that you didn't do for all these years. I was like, you know, people are like, no, really, you need to do this and be prepared for post-WWE. So finally, I got a social media. I opened an Instagram account. I posted something. I think I posted something a couple of years ago. I posted something about the Longh years ago i posted something about the university the longhorns beating uh georgia in the sugar bowl right yeah so the first kind of one of the really

like one of the first things that i did that was out of character so again you know so i'm scrolling through looking at comments and stuff like that and they're like well there goes my childhood my childhood is ruined the undertaker is now on social media. He's a human being. I had no idea. It's like, I'm looking at him like, you've got to be shitting me. You've got to be kidding me at this point. But people were genuinely pissed that I broke character finally after 30 years.

Wait till they find out you have a wife and kids oh my gosh people hate her people hate michelle because she's married to me really oh my god are you kidding me i look my fan like she's ruined your character because you have a wife and children yeah people don't they didn't they didn't want to see that all they wanted was what i give them. Yeah. You know, I mean, they wanted more. Obviously, they wanted more. But, I mean, like, they get, they're real, it's, my fan base has been very loyal.

Especially when you consider how long that I've been here. Like, my fan base has stayed with me. And then, obviously, they've had children now. And it's like, you know, so I have, but they're very, and I am very appreciative, but they're very possessive and protective of, you know, of the undertaker. And it's pretty some of the stuff that you get. I have to tell you one story before we go.

So it's like 1998 1998, 1999. I'm in Las Vegas gambling a Treasure Island. Go on. It's one of those. I'm broke at that point. Go on this run and it's just one of those

two hour blackjack runs where it's like just you're getting every card. We're up. We're high-fiving ordering shots, whole thing. It's like great, great Vegas night, ultimate Vegas night, go to the bathroom and I'm in there and you walk in. I had that look on my face.

I was going to figure out and you're like two urinals down for me. And I I'm hammered. It's like two in the morning and you're there and you're going to the bathroom and there's just silence. And then I said something like, I'm up $500 and I'm taking a piss next to the undertaker. What a night. And there's just three seconds of silence. And I'm like, oh my God, he's going to kill me. And then you're like, sounds like it. And you walk away. And I'm'm thinking all these years later, how many interactions,

dumb interactions with stupid idiots like me in 1997 have you had over the last 30 years where you just kind of have to move on? Yeah, there's been a few. I mean, you got to be really nervous when you start talking about Las Vegas.

I think the statute of limitations has run out almost. Yeah, you're fine. You're fine. I'm good. I'm good now. Yeah, there's, there's, there's been a lot of, a lot of weird things and people that'll, you know, nobody tries to fuck with you. Do they,

do the people like try to challenge you? No, no, I've been very fortunate that way. Like, uh, you know, I'm kind of,

until I get a read on somebody like people, I don't know. I'm a little, I'm a little reserved and, and not, not kind of standoffish in a little bit. So I got to get a feel on where people are at. Four in the morning in Treasure Island's toilet, I'm, you know,

and I'm probably about 10 sheets to the wind myself. Yeah, I don't think you were sober either. Yeah, I was probably swaying. But, you know, I've always just kind of carried myself, not like in a, you know, walk in, like, don't fuck with me kind of thing, but just carry myself in a way like, yeah, it probably wouldn't be advantageous for you to fuck with me too much. And you always keep moving, right? That's the move when you're super famous. You never stop.

You just keep going forward. That's the worst, is if you stop and then, you know. Yeah. Well, I have good news for you. That's the worst is if you stop and then, you know. Yeah. Well, I have good news for you. What's that? I'm hiring you for a ringer podcast. We'll talk about it later. I think you could do this.

I think you can have your own podcast. Just have guests. Just shoot the shit with people. Oh, you think? It's easy. Yeah. You could do this. I'm telling you.

I might have to. This could be your next thing it could be i may be looking for a new job soon think how many connections you have you could just call in all the people who owe you something over the years you could have every one of those people on as a guest and that's 30 shows you're good i'm gonna put that to the think tank, man. Yeah, put it on. I think you could have a podcast. Stone Cold has reinvented himself a little bit. He's got a really good podcast. A lot of good people gone.

But I think you could do it. I don't know. I just feel like you could do it. So think about it. Well, I will think about it. Put it on there. People laugh at me because I've had up until recently like i hated talking i hate talking in front of people it's like yeah as myself now i can talk as undertaker i can talk in front of a hundred thousand people and not blake and i but to be

myself in a large group terrifies me and i know i've got a i've got a little bit of a tick where i say you know a lot i don't know if you've noticed it but yeah i didn't notice any tips it's really i'm trying to really break the habit of not saying it but it's like i'll start to start talking about a story or something like that and then like i'll be thinking about what i'm going to say and then i'll say you know, anyway, people pick up on where they kind of, they kind of buried. Well,

maybe, maybe your podcast can just be just stories about things you did in Vegas that the statue of limitations have expired. You know, some people, those never expire. Are you a blackjack guy? What are you like poker?

Yeah. Yeah. I like blackjack. Yeah. Yeah. So you like poker yeah yeah i like blackjack yeah yeah so you'd have to go to like the pride the the tables where the you get your own little area nah man i just usually i just get out there amongst them you know people are unbelievable how did i not know this yeah i don't i mean i've been out to to Vegas it's been a while a couple years I've been out there but

you know but I don't start till really late yeah okay that's probably why yeah you keep it under the radar

well this was awesome you can check out the last ride on WWE Network there's been two episodes so far I thought it was excellent I really did

I really genuinely enjoyed it. It was great to talk to you. I'm glad we finally did this. Thank you. Well, I appreciate you having me on and I'll consider doing my own. Yeah, we got to talk. All right. Thank you. See you, Bill. All right. Before we go, as promised, here is Eddie Vedder talking to the crowd in Chicago in 2006, then launching into present tense. A song that the true Pearl Jam fans, though, has always been one of the underrated Pearl Jam songs.

But now, God, it's just due on this famous sports documentary. Anyway, here that is. Wrapping it up. We'll see you on Thursday. How's it sound there in the United States? We'll see you on Thursday. I think we should start with taking the... Maybe we should take that Jordan flag down right there. Ooh! Let's start with that one.

Just let's take that flag down and, uh... Actually, take it down. You can put it in my suitcase so I can take it home. That would be great. Actually, there's a, uh... I think you can bring up, bring up Michael Jordan and the Chicago team since we're in this room tonight and in their house. It was an amazing time in life, especially if you grew up in Chicago, to see that. And so, even though music and athleticism,

it doesn't really seem like they cross over, but this song in particular seems like it does. And I think about those guys. This song's called Present Tense. Let's go. Let's go. Vamos lá! Leaning out to catch the sun's rays Of the air is going to be applied All we get is something out of this

Olin Compassing Tread You can't spend your time alone Take it You got it You can turn every life around

You can't forget the start I've returned every night to the one I can't forget It's the first day in the present day Have you an idea on how this life ends? Change your hands in steady line Have you ever believed That the road up here Stands on Innocent line Seems for some I see

It's become harder To find an approach in the way you live I will get something out of this Oh, baby Fucking dream You can't spend your time alone Read that distant past regrets Oh

Oh You can't come to terms and realize You're the only one who can forgive yourself That makes much more sense to me In the present day We'll be right back. Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. guitar solo Thank you.