The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Unhappy NBA Star Era, 2020 New York Sports, and MTV’s 'The Challenge' With John Jastremski and Dave Jacoby

Episode Date: December 9, 2020

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons shares his thoughts on James Harden wanting out of Houston, as well as some history behind the unhappy NBA star era (2:30), before talking to John Jastremski from WFAN radio about the current state of New York pro sports (34:00). Finally Bill talks with his old pal David Jacoby about the new season of MTV’s 'The Challenge: Double Agents.' They break down the competitors into tiers as they gear up for the new season (1:24:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, the fallout from James Harden wanting to trade from Houston the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good. I think the Chargers are going to be good. I think Seattle's going to be good. And then trying to back what you think in those first few weeks and then zag the other way if you were wrong. You could bet on new and fun markets on FanDuel, like to catch a pass, same game parlays, highest scoring game across the Sunday slate.

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The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gang's here. You're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer.

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90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller time. Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I hopped on TV Concierge this week to talk about a show called A Teacher with Malir Rubin, which is on FX.

You can get it on Hulu and it's a fascinating show. So we broke it down there. I also went on the new mismatch feed with Kevin O'Connor and Chris Vernon. And we talked about a bunch of NBA stuff heading into the new season that I think is happening. feed with Kevin O'Connor and Chris Vernon. And we talked about a bunch of NBA stuff heading into the new season that I think is happening. I guess we'll find out. Coming up, I'm going to talk about Harden and the legacy of unhappy superstars at the very top. And then John

Yastrzemski, New York radio host, is going to come on. We're going to do State of New York Sports in 2020. It's been quite a year for the New York sports scene. I don't mean that as a compliment. And then my old pal, Dave Jacoby, we have something very special planned for the challenge this year. I'll just tell you now, we're recapping every episode on the ringer dish podcast. We'll be going up right after the challenge on Wednesday nights, right after it airs on MTV, and we'll put the pod up. It will be on Ringer Dish. Jacoby and I, a reunion.

We used to work together way back when. We're going to talk about that and a whole lot more. It's an action-packed podcast. First, Pro-Jab. All right, wanted to start the podcast with something I've been thinking about a lot last few days. James Harden is unhappy. He's an unhappy superstar. We've seen this happen in the NBA a bunch of times. This one feels a little different

because he's unhappy with the situation that he single-handedly created. He single-handedly cultivated. It seems like he made most of the calls. It didn't work out. He came close to a title in 2019 and really close in 2018. Fell short.

I would point a lot of the blame at him and his playoff performances. I would say the roster composition was probably a little less to blame. But still, he came short, and now he wants to jump elsewhere, and he might go to Brooklyn, he might go to Philly. He's also handled it really, really, really, really terribly.

Goes to Vegas right as everybody's convening to start the preseason. Just seems like he doesn't want to be there anymore and he's going to try to force their hand. And you watch this from afar and you think, well, why would Houston let him do this? Why wouldn't they just say, you know what? Fuck you, dude. We're not trading you. You're the franchise superstar. We've done everything we possibly could to bring a contender for you. And you're going to stay. We're not trading you.

Of course, we know they're not going to do that. We know he's going to get traded. It got me thinking about all the different eras we've had with unhappy superstars. When it started, how it's evolved, and where it's going. Because I think the last four years, something shifted. And I've talked to a bunch of people in my life.

Some people work for teams. Other people just love the league. All of whom are a little bit concerned where this is heading. What does this mean long-term for a league where anybody who's unhappy for a month can just basically force their way out of a franchise. And should we even care? And we've talked about player empowerment and that the seesaw has shifted in a good way, in a lot of ways, toward the players, where for years and years, they're treated basically like property with the owners. They had to fight for every advancement they ever had to make. And at some point, the balance has shifted,

which is really dangerous because this is a league that relies on loyalty of fan bases. It relies on generations of fans supporting basically laundry, rooting for uniforms and rooting for the legacy of a team. And if you're threatening that and it just turns into a league of hired guns

and fans just rooting for players over teams and fans feeling like there's no loyalty to them and everything that they do when they support somebody like James Harden. If you're in Houston, you're defending him the last seven years as fans from other teams are like, that guy chokes in the playoffs. You can't win with that guy. He's too selfish. If you're a Houston fan, you're like, no, no, he's our guy. And you're making all your cases. I think the best possible outcome of this would have been Dallas over the course of the 2000s where Dirk, he wins an MVP, he makes a finals, they come damn close. And then at some point we all basically decide, he doesn't have what it

takes. He's definitely a great star, but he's not somebody you can win a title with. And the Dallas fans are sitting there going, no, no, this guy's great. This guy's had bad luck. This guy's better than you think he is. And then it all culminates in 2011. They win the title. Dirk outplays LeBron and Wade on the biggest stage possible, leads Dallas to the title. And how much Mavericks fans love Dirk and love that Dallas team and felt a part of it. It wasn't just what happened that year. It was the 12 years that led up to it and Dirk being on the same team.

And that's probably the last pure title anyone's ever won. You go through after that, it's, you know, LeBron jumped into Miami. He wins a couple, um, I guess the San Antonio one, San Antonio is the last pure title. Actually, the more I'm thinking about it, just because it was, it was Duncan Parker, Ginobili, and they built around those dudes. But for the most part, we're not going to see those anymore because with the exception of somebody like Steph Curry, most of these guys are going to jump around and that's just where we are. The piece about guys being unhappy, I think you really have to look back at NBA history

because this is not a new thing. This is not an epidemic of, oh my God, all these guys are jumping teams. This is crazy. The NBA has never liked this. The NBA actually has been like this for a long time, for almost six decades. There's one wrinkle that's different, which we're going to get to, but I wanted to go quickly give you a little history lesson about the league. So who's the first guy ever who demands a trade who says, get me the fuck out of here? It's Will Chamberlain, the most selfish player of all time. You can read my book. I spent multiple chapters eviscerating the myth that he was better than Bill Russell and that this is a guy that people want to play with. As great as

he was, he was a nightmare of a teammate and was somebody that they won the title in 1967. One of the best teams ever to that point, maybe the best team. Well, a year later, they lose to Boston. He's mad about it. Doesn't like the coach, decides he wants to live in LA and basically tells the team, trade me. And it turns into a staring session and they panic and they trade him and the trade's terrible. It's like Daryl Imhoff and Archie Clark and I can't even remember who else is in it. It's the classic, I don't even know if it was three quarters for a dollar. It was more like three quarters for a $ was in it. It's the classic, I don't even know if it was three quarters for a dollar.

It was more like three quarters for a $10 bill trade. It was just awful. And then Will goes to the Lakers to make the finals the next two years. They finally win in 1972. And it's just a disaster of a trade. He was the first unhappy guy who said, I'm forcing my way out. The next guy is somebody that nobody really remembers. Earl Monroe on Baltimore.

They make the finals in 1971. He wants more money. The Bullets kind of lowball him. They do a staring contest. He demands a trade. And then I think three games into the season, they trade him to the Knicks, which was their big rival in the team.

They beat in the playoffs. They reunite. They don't reunite. They unite this Frazier-Monroe backcourt. Everybody loses their minds. But Monroe, Earl Pearl forced his way out. 1975, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. This is the one I think people go to a lot as a famous example.

The first two famous examples are Wilton Kareem. Kareem, 1975, free agency's coming in years in Milwaukee. He doesn't want to live there anymore. It's too small for him. He wants to go to a big city. He wants to go to New York. The Knicks, of course, fuck it up because they're the Knicks. And he ends up getting traded to the Lakers in a four quarters for a $20 bill trade.

They got a lot of young guys. It looked awesome on paper in 1975 if you're the Bucs, but they gave up one of the three best players of all time. The next year, the ABA-NBA merger happens. Julius Irving is on the Nets. He has just won the finals with them. He's the best player in the ABA and he's the reason the merger is happening.

He wants more money. He decides he wants $3 million for six years. And the Nets are like, cool, we have no money. We did this merger. We got cleaned out. The Nets decide to sell him to Philly because they can't pay him. So you could say he's technically an unhappy superstar. Anyway, that's our first generation.

Now we move into the second era. This is the free agency era. This is when free agency becomes a tool for the players to basically say, I'm unhappy. I'm going to leave unless you trade me. First one's Bill Walton. He actually signs with the Clippers, but there's free agent compensation. They have to trade a whole bunch of stuff. It's a disaster and really paves the way for the Clippers to be awful. But Bill Walton was really unhappy and actually sued the Portland medical staff. So imagine if that happened in 2020. That happens. Three years later, Moses Malone

wants to sign a free agent contract with Philly Houston has right of first refusal Moses wants out he's tired of carrying them they figure out a trade I think it's Caldwell Jones at a number one pick and he goes to Philly

and wins the title and goes down as one of the best 15 players ever that was not great the 80s were pretty quiet for the most part the most fun thing that happened in 1989 Danny Ferry is the number two pick of the Clippers. He was considered to be like a Bill Bradley, Larry Bird type guy. Translation, he was white. Doesn't want to go to the Clippers. He's the son of a former player who's a GM. He knows what a disaster they are. He's like, I'm not going. You got to trade me. So they trade him to Cleveland.

They trade Ron Harper and a couple other things. They get like, I'm not going. You got to trade me. So they trade him to Cleveland. They trade Ron Harper and a couple other things. They get Ferry and he turns out to be basically a bust. But that was, he pulled the Eli Manning. He created the Eli Manning before Eli Manning.

Things are still quiet. We head into 1992. This is an important one. Hakeem Olajuwon. They don't make the playoffs, the 92 Rockets. Hakeem is one of the best players in the league.

He's no help. He's played with basically nobody since that one year Ralph Samson was good in 1986. And Hakeem is like, get me out of here. And I remember I was in Boston that summer or that fall, whatever. I think it was that fall when they were really talking about the Rockets might trade him. And the WEI hosts are talking about whether the Celtics should trade Reggie Lewis, Reggie Lewis for Hakeem Olajuwon. I loved Reggie Lewis. He was an awesome player. He's a really good two guard. He was an all-star. I'm driving around going, are you fucking kidding

me? Of course we should trade Reggie Lewis for Hakeem Olajuwon. He's one of the best five players in the league. Houston doesn't get an offer they like and they keep him. Guess what happens? Hakeem rips off the best three years in a row, not only just of his career, but one of the best three-year stretches any center has ever had. They come close in 93, a really good team. They lose in seven, I think to Seattle. Then they win the finals in 94 and 95. And it's a good example of like, if your superstar is unhappy, ride it out. So remember that one. The other one was Charles Barkley, who was miserable in Philly, had some stuff going on with the local media. He's like, get me out of there.

And Philly stupidly says, okay. They trade him for Jeff Hornacek, Andrew Lang, and Tim Perry. That was dumb. He goes to Phoenix. He wins the MVP. Then was beat MJ in the finals. In 93, Danny Manning, who's refusing to sign an extension with the Clippers, rightly so, because they're the Clippers, and is like, I'm leaving after the year. They trade him to Atlanta.

So those are all examples of players using their free agency leverage to try to hang it over the team's head. But now we're moving into the third era, which was the too much too soon era. And this is the first time we have players who are not of the stature of Will Chamberlain and Kareem and Doc, all those people. These are young guys who are just like, cool, I have leverage. I'm just going to use it. First one, Chris Weber, Golden State. Either fire the coach or trade me. And the owner's like, we're not firing Don Nelson. We're trading you. They trade him to Washington for three first round picks and Tom Gugliotta. You can guess how that one turned out for both teams. But this paves this way for all of these unhappy dudes forcing their way out.

Alonzo Mourning in Charlotte gets traded to Miami. Dennis Rodman in San Antonio gets traded to Chicago. 1996, Jason Kidd, his whole thing with Jamal Mashburn and Jimmy Jackson, that falls apart. Gets traded to Phoenix. Tim Hardaway, super unhappy near the deadline in 1996 in Golden State. Golden State says, cool, trades in Miami, creates this instant contender in Miami. 1997, Sean Kemp, furious that Jim McElvain made more money than him. Demands a trade. Gets traded to Cleveland for Vin Baker. The only one who demanded a trade and didn't get traded was Scottie Pippen, as covered in The Last Dance during the 97-98 season. He's like, get me out of here. I want out.

They come pretty close. They almost traded him in the 97 draft to the Celtics for the third and sixth pick. And a future number one, which would have been a catastrophe of a trade for the Celtics. Thank God that didn't happen. Because the Paul Pierce pick would have eventually been in that trade. But he ends up not getting traded. So hold that thought. So right now, we have two guys who demanded a trade. Didn't actually happen.

Hakeem, Scottie Pippen. Next one in this era is Latrell Sprewell. I count him. He choked his coach. He was so unhappy, he actually assaulted his coach. So maybe it wasn't necessarily a trade demand, but I'd like to consider choking your coach is a pretty effective way to get traded. So they end up getting suspended for the whole year and gets traded to the Knicks.

And then we have two more here. Stefan Marbury in Minnesota in 1999. He's upset because they changed the salary cap stuff. Kevin Garnett is going to $120 million for six years. Marbury, the most he can make is six for 71 or six

for 81, something like that. He can't handle it. Demands a trade. He wants to be the guy on his own team. They have to trade him to New Jersey. And then the 99 draft, Steve Francis gets drafted by Vancouver, almost starts crying during the draft. It's a pretty incredible moment and refuses to report, doesn't want to go to Canada. They end up trading to Houston. So now we're into the fourth era. So that era from like 98 to 2004, it was really hard for stars to say, get me out of here because the contracts were so big and so long, either you wanted to keep the guy or you didn't want to trade him. 2004, things shift. You have Shaq in LA. He's got a year left on his deal. They end up trading him to Miami because him and Kobe cannot coexist

anymore. They pick Kobe. They trade him to Miami. Guess what? Guess who won the trade? The team that got Shaquille O'Neal. That happens. Baron Davis, who really hadn't won anything in New Orleans, but for the Hornets was not happy there. Charlotte, New Orleans. It was wherever the Hornets were that year. Who cares? But he was on the Hornets. Didn't want to play there anymore. They trade him to Golden State for Speedy Claxton and Dale Davis. Good one. Way to go, Golden State. Vince Carter hates Toronto so much and is so mad and is so unhappy. He basically tanks the season until they trade him. And it's pretty indefensible. And I covered it in my book. It was not a good moment for the Vince Carter era.

I actually went to a game during that era when he was unhappy. And it was pretty brutal. He was unhappy. I'll leave it at that. They ended up trading him to New Jersey in the worst three quarters for a dollar trade, probably in the history of the league. They had to take Alonzo Mourning's contract, which I think they either had to amnesty or buy out. I can't remember.

That trade was so bad. They actually had to take back a bad contract to give up a guy who immediately went to New Jersey and averaged 27 a game. So nice work there. Tracy McGrady, same thing in Orlando. He's unhappy. They can't win.

They traded him to Houston for Francis and Mobley. You're not going to believe it, but the team that got Tracy McGrady won that trade. And then Rasheed Wallace in Portland, they were just like, we got to get this guy out of here. They gave him away for a first round pick to Atlanta. They flipped in Detroit. So a lot of chaos that year, but the narrative at the time wasn't, oh my God, the player's player empowerment, they're ruining the league. It was more like, wow, a lot of unhappy guys. What's going on here? Shift to 07, Kobe Bryant. He's looking at the end of his prime and he freaks out

and is basically like, I need out, trade me. And they have a deal in place to send him to Detroit. And I asked him about this when he came in the Greenland Basketball. The story was true. It looked like it was going to be Detroit. And Dr. Buss came in off the top rope, the guy on the Lakers, one of the best owners of all time. I was like, we're not trading Kobe, cancel.

So it was like Rip Hamilton, Picks, I forget who else was in it. They ended up keeping Kobe, they make the finals, they get Gasol. I should say they stole Gasol. I should say the league gave them Gasol. Kobe makes the finals, wins two in a row, and everybody goes, whoa, remember when we almost traded Kobe Bryant? So that's another example of an unhappy guy where the team wrote

it out. So I just gave you three examples of ride it out. Scottie Pippen in 97, they end up winning the title. Hakeem Olajuwon, they ride it out. They end up winning two titles. Kobe Bryant, they ride it out. They win two titles. The last one from this era is Jason Kidd, who is past his prime in New Jersey at this point. As for trade, they traded in Dallas. So there you go. All right. Fifth era, sons of the decision. So in 2011, this is really where it starts feeling like modern times. We have Carmelo in Denver, Chris Paul in New Orleans, and Dwight Howard in Orlando, all of whom are super unhappy and they want trades. But now we're covering this in real time

in the way that we're starting to cover sports now. Twitter's in place, the whole rumor system, 24-7 sports cycle, first take, all sports radio stations, it's all in place. Carmelo ends up basically bullying his way to New York when he could have just waited four months and signed there because he wanted the extra year of money. So ends up depleting a bunch of their assets so he could go. That was a really, even though they still got the best part in the trade, they could have just waited four months, but he fucked them over.

Let's be honest. They'd lost Gallinari. They lost Wilson Chandler. They lost Felton. They lost a couple of picks. Chris Paul in New Orleans, I don't blame him for wanting out. The league had to take over the team. The NBA owned New Orleans, but he still wanted out.

And it turned into little sweepstakes where the Lakers thought they had him. Clippers jumped in last second. They got him. Stern's legacy was tarnished. That was a barrel left. And then Dwight Howard, who wanted to get traded from Orlando, backed off last second. The rumor was always that he looked at his Twitter replies and his feelings were hurt and he decided to back off.

Decided to recommit and then ended up getting traded anyway in 2012. That was the first sign that weird shit was starting to happen here. 2012, Dwight leaves the Lakers, goes to Houston as a free agent. 2014, LeBron jumps from Miami to Cleveland, really kind of blindsides them, but that's free agency. He's entitled to do that. LaMarcus Aldridge goes from Portland to San Antonio for agent.

But the unhappy guy during this stretch is Kevin Love of Minnesota, who's putting up big stats on bad teams and wants out. LeBron goes to Cleveland. The doors open up, and all of a sudden, Kevin Love is traded for the Andrew Wiggins pick and we're off.

And then really the end of that era is just guys jumping around free agency. Durant goes to Golden State. Horford goes to Boston. Dwayne Wade goes to Chicago, et cetera. The sixth era starts four years ago. And this is the era that we're all familiar with. And when you see it all laid out, it's kind of alarming.

So you have 2017, Hayward jumps from Utah to Boston as a free agent. But we have four unhappy guys who are like, get me out of here. Chris Paul on the Clippers, they can't pay him. Or the Clippers can pay Chris Paul way more than anybody else in free agency. But Chris Paul says, I want to play in Houston. So the Clippers smartly figure out a deal where they can get some assets back. If they didn't do that, they could have fucked them over. Um, Chris Paul goes to Houston for a giant contract.

You know how that played out. Kyrie Irving's in Cleveland. He decides he's unhappy. Still not totally sure what he was unhappy about playing with LeBron James, but he decided he was unhappy. One thing leads to another. The team starts to get worried that if they don't trade him, he's going to get knee surgery and screw them over for basically at least half the season. They decide to trade him to Boston for the poo-poo platter. It's the eighth pick. It's a broken down Isaiah Thomas, Jay Crowder, and some other stuff. Boston gets Kyrie Irving. At the same time, Paul George is in Indiana,

and he's decided he's unhappy, even though there's no trail whatsoever of somebody being a contender of Paul George as their best player. I mean, you could say during the year they made the conference finals, well, what about that? I was like, all right. They had like four or five really good guys. I don't think Paul George was not your franchise guy dragging you to the third round. He decides he's unhappy and shockingly gets traded to OKC, which we did not see coming. So he teams up with Westbrook.

And then the other one is Jimmy Butler in Chicago, who's unhappy, a recurring theme with Jimmy Butler, forces trade to Minnesota. So those are four in a year. So we never had that. 2018, LeBron jumps from Cleveland, LA. We also have the Kawhi Leonard saga. He's unhappy. He doesn't like San Antonio. He feels betrayed. We'll never fully know what happened with this one either. He's the only person who's ever turned on Greg Popovich. They end up trading him to Toronto. At the same time, Jimmy Butler, guess what? He's also unhappy in Minnesota.

He gets traded to Philadelphia. So now we have six in the span of two years, unhappy guys. Now we get to 2019. Anthony Davis signs a mega contract with New Orleans. Two and a half years in, he's unhappy.

Time for him to leave. I know I'm a franchise player, but I have to actually carry the franchise? Fuck that. I want to go to the Lakers. So he eventually gets traded in the summer of 2019, even though it almost seemed like it was going to happen in February 2019.

That same summer, Paul George finds out Kawhi is going to the Clippers and Kawhi wants Paul George to join him. Paul George has join him. Paul George has just signed a massive long-term extension to stay in OKC. And he's like, cool. Yeah, that would be cool if we end up on the Clippers together. I'm going to ask OKC for a trade.

OKC's like, what? We just made this huge commitment to you. What about the barbecue that Russ had? So now Paul George is in that trade. He leaves. And then Westbrook finds out Paul George is in that trade. He leaves. And then Westbrook finds out Paul George is leaving. He's like, all right, well, get me the fuck out of here. And they trade him to Houston.

So we have those three. Plus we have Butler jumps to Miami as a free agent. Horford jumps to Philly as a free agent. Durant jumps to Brooklyn as a free agent. Kyrie jumps to Brooklyn as a free agent. Kemba jumps from Charlotte to Boston as a free agent. So a lot of turnover last year. And then 2020, James Harden. So what changed? What is the difference with the last four years compared to everything else? I think it's two things. I think first, the contracts are shorter, which the owners really push for

because of that time I mentioned from 1999 through 2005, when you're signing these guys to six years, seven years, and it's just working out terribly for everybody. Half the time you're getting stuck with this Vin Baker type contract. You're like, oh my God, this thing's got four years left. So they did shorter contracts and they also acquiesced on all these options where it's like, it's a five-year deal, but the guy's got an option after four years or it's a three-year deal, but after two years he can bounce. So the team is constantly walking on eggshells with their best players. So you have that piece. At the same time, you also have players

who I think are, this generation of guys is much smarter and much more active. Their agents are much better at mobilizing. And they're just, the GMs are smart enough

to know, I'm going to keep my job if my best guy is happy. Look at Daryl in Houston. He's consulting with James Harden on everything. LeBron, wherever he went, they're always,

you know, superstars get treated differently. You're treating on everything. LeBron, wherever he went, they're always, you know, superstars get treated differently. You're treating somebody differently. After a while, they think they can just start calling the shots. And then if things go wrong, they don't feel any accountability at all. So you have that piece as well.

And then the third piece is, I just think the spirit in the country has changed toward athletes and, you know, workers in general, where I think there's much more camaraderie with the fans and the players that happened before. So a piece of that is social media. The players, you have direct access to them. I think in general, fans are rooting for players more than teams ever before. And the stuff like I grew up with, where if somebody just was doing what James Harden

was doing right now, the press would have been merciless. They would have been just destroying him, eviscerating him. He's an ingrate. He's disloyal. These selfish superstars. That's the era of sports I grew up with,

where we treated these players as adversaries if they wanted more money or they wanted no opportunity. Now it's completely opposite. Now everyone's supportive of the players almost to a fault. It seems like the seesaw has swung too far the other way. And I think this James Harden thing is the culmination of that, where you have this guy who I think Houston did right for the last eight years in every respect. They tried to put the best

possible teams around him. I'm not defending the new owner because he seems like a jackass. Anyone who can't figure out to keep Daryl, and I know him, the classic new owner syndrome, all that stuff. The Westbrook for Paul throwing in the two first picks, that was insane. That trade made no sense and they had no idea if it was going to work. It was basically Hail Mary. So I'm not defending Houston, but it's weird to me that the players feel no obligation at all to the people that cheered them and supported them. It just doesn't matter to them anymore because they know there's not going to be a backlash. There's no fair at all to basically saying, I'm going to screw over this entire city. Even you think about Chris Weber, when he left Golden State in 94, when he forced his way out.

Every time he came back for a Warriors game from that point on, they booed him the entire game. And I was lucky enough, I went to a Sacramento Warriors game in 99 where they booed Weber every time he touched the ball. It was five years after he left. That was the era where fans acted like that.

Fans were a lot more combative, I think, with players. Same thing for Vince Carter. Every time he went back to Toronto for the rest of his career there. Now there's been this weird backlash of like, oh, we got to embrace Vince Carter and all the great times we had in Toronto. And people just kind of gloss over the part that he kind of quit on Toronto that last year he was there. So it just seems like we are giving these guys more and more leeway to do whatever they want. And my fear with this stuff is just, if the NBA is just now Tinder and guys can jump every time they're unhappy about anything, I don't know where this leaves coaches and teams

and just the infrastructure of how to build a successful team. I don't know what kind of lessons we're learning from it. I don't know what like a 13-year-old kid watching this is just like, cool. So the first time anything gets rough, there's any sort of rough patch, I'll just bounce. I'll just go to another team. That's my lesson from this. And the guy who saw this in 2014, I talked about this in the book of basketball podcast was Pat Riley. He saw this whole era happening. He gave that press conference about three days before LeBron jumped. And I think he had a feeling LeBron was going to

jump. And he made this whole, he gave this whole 40 minutes, 40 minute press conference in this awesome speech. This is honestly one of the best things he ever did, where he's just like, this is hard. You don't win every year. Only one team gets to win every year. You're going to have rough patches. We had them with the Lakers. And if you look back at Riley's teams in the 80s, Magic demanded be traded in 1981.

They almost traded Kareem in 1983. They almost traded James Worthy in 1986. They held on to that nucleus and that team. They kind of rode the waves of what it's like to compete as an athlete. You're not going to win every year. You're just not. And I think we're losing that now. And I think that's why so many people in my life who are worried about the NBA are worried about it for that reason, that we are losing the piece of sometimes you got to fight through it. Sometimes the season's not going to work out the way you want. Sometimes you're going

to have a weird dynamic with the team. Instead of solving issues, trying to learn from them, you have guys who are just at the first sign of dissension, trouble, losing, any sort of bad anything. They're just like, I'm out. Send me to the next place. And the fact that it worked for Anthony Davis and he won the title and it worked for Jimmy Butler and he became this hero in Miami, I think it's just going to accelerate all of this. What happens if Atlanta is not as good as everyone thinks they're going to be and Trey Young looks at it and goes, oh man, I thought we'd be better. Might have to look elsewhere. The thing is, there's only so many good teams. There's only so many desirable teams to go to. We have the two teams in LA. I guess we have the Nets, you would say. The Knicks, no. Celtics, Warriors, Mavericks. It's less than 10 desirable teams. And I think the fear for me is we're going to turn into this league where everybody just wants to go to the same seven teams and the competitive balance is shot.

And we don't get to actually root for the arc of a team. Maybe what happened with the Warriors there, with that six-year run they had, is the last time we're going to see a team even stay together for six years, give or take, with three stars. All this stuff is a concern to, I think, me and everyone else who loves the league. And I think the way this Harden thing has been received the last few days was really startling to me because, first of all, they should have fined him the moment he wasn't there. The fact that he has so much control over the situation when he's signed a contract with them to play for them for two more years.

And if he got hurt tomorrow, they would have to pay him for the next two years. They wouldn't be like, cool, we're not paying you. The lack of an obligation that guys feel when they sign these big deals with these teams. And then they just feel like, well, now I got my contract. I can do whatever I want anyway. It really worries me for the long-term future of the league. And I think it worries a lot of people. Where are we going? Is this just going to be a league where people root for players and not teams? And if that's the case, you almost have to reconsider everything we're seeing and watching.

You know, it's 2K. That's what it is. It's my son making his own 2K character and basically saying, cool, here's my 2K character. I'm going to play in Dallas next year. Eh, I didn't really like how Dallas went. I'm going to go to Houston. And that's just what the NBA is going to play in Dallas next year. Eh, I didn't really like how Dallas went. I'm going to go to Houston.

And that's just what the NBA is going to be. So anyway, the Harden thing makes me nervous. The TLDR of that whole essay is the way this has been received and kind of the gall of him to just be like, the Rockets fans have rooted me for eight years. I'm just going to take a shit on him. I think it sucks. So we're going to take a break.

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November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, we're taping this Tuesday afternoon Pacific time. I don't know why it's taking me this long to have a guy whose last name is pronounced Yastrzemski on this podcast, but it's finally happening. John Yastrzemski, he is on The Fan with a show called JJ After Dark, which initially was Overnight, where it made sense that it was After Dark. Now it's just Nights, but it's still After Dark, right? Basically, Bill. And now I can scratch you and Mike Francesa off the bucket list right now. So I feel like, you know, I'm doing bucket list tasks.

You know, 2018, it was Mike. Now 2020, it's you. Let's go, bro. I love it, man. Thank you. Yeah, you know, I'm doing bucket list tasks. You know, 2018, it was Mike. Now 2020, it's you. Let's go, bro. I love it, man. Thank you. Yeah, you and Mike, you did the show with him a few times. We both have. And he did solo for so long, it was fun to kind of unlock the two-man game with him.

Because it was lurking inside there. You do the solo all the time where you have to basically rely on the callers and do a little five-minute rant, stuff like that. It's like its own skill. I've never totally understood how people can do it. No, you find a way. And the biggest thing is, Bill, having the callers to piggyback off of. Mike had it for five hours. I mean, I've had some overnight shows, dude, where it's 3 in the morning and you're wondering who in God's name is listening to you right now.

And then, you know, guys driving a JFK, cops, firefighters, New York City, man, you know the deal. A couple of people who had a few cocktails, maybe. Yes, a couple out of bars, you know, maybe in my neighborhood, maybe on the Upper East Side. You never know. Hey, everybody's welcome. You know that. Well, I'm having you on because the New York sports scene has been truly bizarre this year. We're heading toward the end of 2020, which was a weird year in general, but I think especially for New York sports. So I wanted to do a state of the New York sports scene with you. And you're in the day to day. You're on the you're in the battlefield. You're on the lines.

You say bizarre. I'm going to I'm going to take it a step further. It just sucks. How about that, man? I mean, listen, think about New York and think about some of the other cities. You guys experienced it with Boston. LA is experiencing it now. Even stinking Philly. Philly, I feel like, is at least, you know, they had the Eagles, the Sixers. All right, the Phillies haven't been that great over the last few years. But man, I mean, I've had a whole lot of crappy teams to talk about for the last nine years, Bill. Well, we had it in Boston. I was living there when it really hit rock bottom near the end of the night, late nineties, Jerry Callahan. He either wrote a piece or he did it on a WI. He did, he dubbed Boston Loserville and it became a thing. And it was like, we got to the point where when Ray Bork went to Colorado and he won

the Stanley Cup, we were all in bars, like rooting for the avalanche. Like that's how low it got. And then the Patriots happened in 01 and everything flipped. New York, I don't know if New York is that rock bottom because the Yankees are always relevant. They're going to spend a lot of money. But if you look at the totality of it and you figure the amount of money these teams have to spend, you have two teams in each sport. It's kind of unbelievable

that none of them are like a lockdown championship contender. Well, think about it, right? Ownership in New York has been such a disaster for about three of the teams. The Mets, all those years with the Wilpons, now feels like it's a dawning of a new age with Cohen coming in. You know, it's like having Bobby Axelrod apparently own the team, which scares the living daylights out of me as a Yankee fan.

We'll get to that, I'm sure. The Johnsons with the Jets have stunk. And then your buddy, I mean, your good friend, Dolan with the Knicks. I mean, think about this, Bill. I grew up as a kid and every April, May, it was Ewing, it was Sprewell, it was Larry Johnson. Now I look at my 18-year-old cousin or even my sister. They don't know what that is like. For anybody who's under the age of 24,

all they know is the Knicks being the biggest joke in all sports i mean let's call like it is they have been the biggest joke i think in sports what for the last seven years eight years am i crazy to say that oh man i mean there's so many candidates i think if you're talking 21st century jokes the fact that the browns now are a playoff team and even like a French Superbowl contender. Yeah. So they're out now. You cross them off. Yeah. So like for Nick fans is Carmelo Anthony beating your Celtics and ending Garnett. And I, and remember that game six, the Knicks had like a 35 point lead.

And I, I kid you not, Bill, I thought they were going to lose the game. It got to like four points, three points. I'm like, Holy shit. They're going to lose this game. I was doing TV that year. Avery Bradley was full court pressing Raymond Felton who just kept giving the ball to us.

I was like, oh my God, we're going to win this. This is going to be a good seven. And JR was going to do something stupid. Remember, they all wore those dopey black suits. I'll never forget that.

Game five, I think they all wore black. And then they had to face the music after getting their asses handed to them by the Celtics. But that series Game five, I think they all wore black and then they had to face the music after getting their asses handed to them by the Celtics. But that series over Boston, that's the highlight for Nick fans over 20 years. It's crazy. Absolutely. Well, you made the key point.

It's an owner's thing. It always comes back to the owners. When you're failing for more than like 10 years or being disappointing, whatever, you got to start looking way above the players, the coaches, even the GM. You got to look at the owner. You look at New York, like the Mets,

what a wasted opportunity for them from an ownership standpoint. Now they finally have somebody who's going to spend some money, but the Mets were basically like the small market New York team in a lot of ways and trying to cut corners and take these weird risks. And now I'm interested to see what they're going to do.

The Yankees were probably the most traditional New York team. They spent money. They tried to do it responsibly. They just haven't had a luck with title yet. But then you look at Knicks with Prokhorov and the Nets, like the damage of the Prokhorov era of, wow, we're going to spend a ton of money. And then all of a sudden he's like, nah, we're not going to spend money anymore. And they have no picks left. On and on down the line. It's been the owners, which is weird because you would think New York would have some of the best owners and it's the opposite. No. And that basically is why these teams have been in this position. But I'm telling you, Bill, the Met fan over the last, I don't know, month to two months has been unbearable. I mean, imagine the calls I'm now getting. A year ago,

Met fan, it's winter meetings time, calls a free agent, Rendon's a free agent. They might entertain, oh, why can't the Mets sign this guy? It's like, dude, they're not signing him. Get it out of your head. Don't even entertain the idea. Now, I mean, from Bauer to Springer, LeMayu, which, by the way, if LeMayu signs with the Mets, I'm going off the grid for like a week. I'm calling. I'm using every vacation day known to man because

I don't think I could come and do radio if I got to see LeMayu, who's been my dude with the Yankees the last two years, gets every big hit, is one of the few guys on a team that doesn't strike out every other at bat wearing a Met uniform, oh, I'd want to vomit, dude.

I'd want to vomit. He's by far the most popular Yankee now, right? I know my buddy Jacko, that's like his guy. Well, you know what it is? He's got like that 90s Yankee vibe to him. You know, he's just a ball player. He's got the big lip of tobacco in. The uniform is dirty.

And I think a lot of Yankee fans they get aggravated by the fact that all the team does is strike out judge strikes out Stanton don't get me started even though he had a good postseason always strikes out uh Sanchez on and on we go so to have a guy who's kind of like I I'm going to use a Boston term here, a dirt dog. I think a lot of Yankee fans, they've embraced that with LeMayu because he's not like those other dudes. And I don't know how you sell the fan base on you getting better if you let that guy go, but Bill, they're not letting him go. I mean, I'm just, I'm talking it out of me right now. There's no way in the world the Yankees is going to be dumb enough to do that. Well, I'm trying to think when in the Mets-Yankees rivalry, when somebody's poached somebody from the other side, what's the most famous version of that? Well, I would say

it's Doc and Daryl, right? I know it was obviously crazy circumstances with Doc dealing with his demons, Daryl dealing with the demons. Daryl dealing with doc's demons stock dealing with daryl's demons demons everywhere right like those meth fans thought those two guys were going to be hall of famers they were studs they won the 86 title and then they go down that terrible path but then you got a scene with the yankees couldn't throw in a no-hitter strawberry hitting big home run after big home run and they were part of a team that won four titles in five years. See, that's why I'm so spoiled, Bill. Because, you know, the first year I really got into watching baseball was like 94, give or take.

And basically, you know, as bad as I've had it with the Knicks and as bad as I've had it with my team, the Dolphins. I mean, dude, the Yankees haven't had a losing season since I've been a fan. They're in the playoffs every year. It's like you want to complain, but it kind of makes you put some things into perspective, a little bit at least. So there's, I've talked about this on the pod before. There's the Knicks, Yankees, Giants is like the most traditional Yankee fan. And then you have the Jets, Mets, Knicks.

The tortured soul, basically. Those are the people that end up becoming serial killers in therapy. They just have a lot of problems, a lot of anger issues. They need to go to the wall and walk at 3 o'clock in the morning. They got to walk the dog conveniently. Yeah, I would need that pill. You played it really smart because you went, you have Yankees-Knicks, but then with football,

you're like, you don't do the Giants, you go counter, but you don't go counter with the Jets, which would have been a terrible move. You go Dolphins. Yeah, but let's be honest. I've actually probably brought more torture upon myself by being a Dolphin fan. I could have had an easy pill.

I mean, I could have had two Super Bowl championships. Right, Giants would have been the easy move. If I were a Giant fan. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and, you know, that 2017, I hated that Patriot team that was undefeated. I couldn't stand them. I thought it was a shoe when they were going to win the Super Bowl.

So I remember watching that game with a bunch of Boston guys who, believe it or not, introduced me to you back when I was a freshman. So it kind of comes off full circle. Oh, Bill, they were breaking bottles. They were in deep depression. I had to scurry out of the apartment after Brady barely missed Moss. You remember on that 70-yard heave?

I thought he threw a touchdown. I was fucking there. And it was the farthest I've ever seen a football go in my life. For like a second and a half, I thought it was going to be the single greatest sports moment of my life. Moss was running a 3-9-40 down the left side.

The thing with the Patriots that year is they pulled so many games out of their ass at the end. Remember the Eagle game, the Raven game on Monday night. This team's winning. Like, until I saw them actually lose, I couldn't entertain the idea that the Patriots weren't going to win the Super Bowl. But basically, you know, that giant Super Bowl run is the highlight. That's the only reason why giant fans can't be, like, lumped in that tortured soul category.

I don't care how bad it's been over the last seven years. You have those two Super Bowls over the greatest coach and the greatest quarterback I've ever seen in my life. You're never allowed to complain. I'm sorry. You're just never allowed to complain. I don't want to hear it. Yeah.

And they had some really good playoff wins too. Like going to San Francisco, going to Lambeau. Eli getting his ass beat. Dude, they beat Favre and Rogers at Lambeau. Eli getting his ass beat. Dude, they beat Favre and Rodgers at Lambeau. The two playoff runs make absolutely no sense. And it's amazing.

Eli never won a playoff game outside of those two runs. But you know he's going into the Hall of Fame. I don't care if the numbers aren't there. You know it and I know it. He's going to be a Hall of Famer. Sadly, I'm aware of the eli never won a playoff game other than sorry i had to bring it on my bad eli sensitive subject i was in the house for both games and the manningham throw in the second super bowl was a frozen rope that if it was an inch to

the left or an inch to the right they don't complete it and i think the pats win so i mean i i i don't think he was a Hall of Famer. Who do you blame in that second, in that second Super Bowl? Did you put more blame on Welker or on Brady? I forget what you said on the pod many moons ago. No, I thought Brady threw a bad,

Welker was wide open and Brady threw a bad pass. Yeah, it was a crappy pass. I agree with you. I was actually, where Welker caught it was close to where we were sitting. So I had a really good angle on it

and he was wide open. They forgot to cover him. And Brady just kind of missed him. That one, the 07 one doesn't bother me as much because I think the Pats got outplayed and the Giants. Really? See, I'm surprised by that because of the perfect season. See, in 11, I agree with you.

You know, the Giants outplayed them in that 07 Super Bowl. But like going into 07, I didn't think the Giants had a chance in hell. On the flip side, when they played the Super Bowl four years later, I was convinced the Giants were winning the game. I didn't think there was any way you guys are going to win. And as that game played out, you're right. You outplayed them for a good majority of the game. Well, here's my case. So the 07, that loss was the all-time loss I never saw coming. I was just completely stunned the entire time. Even at the end when we took the lead with like two minutes left and I'm with my dad and we're like, oh man, that was scary. We still think we're winning it.

Of course. Until fourth down, Giants celebrating and we're like, the game's over. We're not going to win. It was one of those. I'm saying over the course of the last 10 years or so, I look back at that and I'm like, you know what? They kicked our ass. Like their frontline dominated us. We couldn't run the ball. They had a great coaching plan. They slowed the game down and we kind of panicked.

In the second Super Bowl, I thought we had a better team and I didn't think the Giants played that well and we still lost that one. So that one, I look at that and I'm like, how the fuck did we lose that game? Gronk was hurt. There was some bad breaks. There was some stuff given away.

They couldn't go on Aaron Hernandez. Remember, Aaron Hernandez was all over the field in that game. And listen, it's a play here, play there. I mean, Giant fans don't like to acknowledge this, Bill. But in that first game, Asante Samuel had to pick six. I mean, Eli Manning threw him the ball. Dude, he threw him the ball. We're not talking about Eli and the Giants and these crazy Super Bowl runs if that happens.

But I think for any of these teams, championship teams, you know what we'd all for in the Red Sox, the stupid Tony Clark ball, right? The ground rule double. Yeah. There's the low fencing Fenway. Don't get me started on that. You need that shit to go your way. If you're going to win, it's just, you know, the way it goes. Yeah. Oh, seven was definitely revenge for the Oh four Yankees Red Sox series within the New York Boston. It didn't mean no good. definitely flipped it. Didn't mean no good. Thanks. We're going to take a break

and when we come back, you're going to do your State of the New York Sports end of 2020 power rankings from one to eight. I like this. I like this. We'll be back in one second.

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Copyright 2024. The Coca-Cola Company. Copyright 2024. Mondelez International Group. All right, we're back. We're going to do it. So who owns New York right now as we head to the end of 2020?

And we'll say that this is an evaluation based on the following things. Okay. Local interest, amount of fans, a general feeling you have from doing shows

five days a week, from what callers are interested in. And I would say this is a key category appeal to people 20 and under. If you're a fledgling New York sports fan, where are you gravitating? Who are you gravitating to? So we're closing 2020 with those four kind of categories kind of guiding us. Who is number one right now? It's gotta be the Yankees. It's gotta be the Yankees. I mean, not only from a success level, you walk around town. What do you see? You see Yankee hats, you see Aaron judge shirts, you see Yankee jackets,

their attendance is through the roof and they're good. You know, like they're going to drive conversation because 12 months a year fans are thinking about how they can potentially go and win a title. Now, I think my number two choice is probably going to surprise you a little bit. It's the Mets, Bill. And I'm going to tell you why it's the Mets. Yes. I was not expecting that. Okay. You got to hear me out on this. From what I do five days a week, the passion, the interest level, and just the emotions and all the craziness that Mets fans bring to the table, I deal with it on the radio

station all the time. They make a dumb trade. I have jam lines. They have been kind of teetering on being super relevant, and then they go right back in the tank. I mean, they were in the World Series five years ago. And when they were in the World Series, I mean, the Mets, they were dominating. I mean, Hawking, Syndergaard, pitching. And I think it speaks to the incompetence that is the Knicks because I'm telling you, Bill, I did radio 2013, that year we were talking about when the Knicks finally won a

playoff series and they made it in the second round. If the Knicks were ever good, they'd be number one on the list. But because they have been so bad and like from a talking point standpoint, what is there to say about a lot of these games? I mean, their season is, let's be honest, NBA starts in what, three weeks? Their season is over in two weeks. Their season is over, like, it's not going to be meaningful second half basketball. Like, I'm not

going to be starting the shows in March talking about, like, a Nick Raptor game. Nobody's going to care because the team is terrible. What about that Kentucky East thing? Yeah, I mean, listen. I did Kentucky East thing? Yeah. You basically, the grown up Kentucky guys. Where I get like Anthony Davis

or, you know, I get Tyler Harrell. I'm getting Kevin Knox and I'm getting the kid they took in the back half of the first round. I get the Kentucky like leftovers. I get the, I get the,

you get the Kentucky JV. Yeah. All right. So you have Yankees one. The Mets too, I think is an interesting one. We should talk about that quickly because you just saw the Dodgers win the World Series when a lot of the stuff I was writing for

page two in the 2000s, especially in the early 2010s was about tortured fans, tortured fan bases. It was a big thing. 2004, I wrote a million Red Sox columns. And then we saw over the course, basically from when the Red Sox won all the way through to when the Cubs won in 16, all of these fan bases or cities scratched it off, scratched off the torture. Even Cleveland,

Cleveland wins the title. You're like, oh my God, Cleveland won a title. We never thought we'd see that. And this new generation of tortured team cities kind of rose up. And one of them was the Mets because the Mets from the 86 World Series, the luckiest game anyone's ever won. I know they made some of their own luck too, but you watch that game and it's like a fucking science fiction for 14 pitches that could have ended it. From that moment on, it's bad luck and heartbreak. Now we have somebody like Fantasy who works for the ringer with me. He is in his late 30s

and has no positive Mets memory at all other than the times they made the World Series a couple times and lost. This Mets thing, can we officially call them tortured? Because I think we can. Oh yeah, 100%. Also take this into account fantasy and anybody who did not live 86 think about what you grew up with bill yeah you grew up

as like the ugly stepsister as the Yankees with Jeter and Bernie and Mariano they're winning all these titles like you look at Mets fans at school, it'd be like, why are you rooting for them, dude? And you're born into it. It's a family thing. And it's not like the Mets didn't have success in the late 90s,

but when you compare it to what they've been up against, I think it only enhances that level of torture. I really don't. So if they win in 2000, that's a really interesting New York versus New York thing. That would have been my worst nightmare. Because think about it, Bill. Even though the Yankees won three out of four,

you walk around the city and it would feel hollow. It'd be like, yeah, you won three out of four. Right. They lost the one that actually mattered. You lost to us. You lost to the Mets. Like, no. Like, my worst fear actually was in 06. Because 2000, no knock on those Mets. You know, Piazza, Bobby Valdez. You knew they weren't winning. Right.

They didn't have a chance. 06, the Yankees and the Mets both had the best record. And because the Yankee pitching sucked, I had a fear that the Mets were going to put the Yankees in a World a fear that the mets were going to put the yankees in a world series and the mets were going to win now the yankees that was when a rod hit eighth in the batting order i don't know what tory was thinking they lost i blacked out i'll never forget that was my freshman year of college they couldn't hit kenny rogers and jeremy bonderman and this was like when my angst with the Yankees was really building because they had all four. They had all five. They had a bunch of really bad playoff losses in

a row. And I just was A-Rod sitting eighth. I'm pounding bourbon. It was sickening. And the Mets later that night beat the Dodgers to go to the NLCS. And I was like, it's happening. They're winning the World Series. Just own it. And when Molina hit the home run in Game 7 against the Cardinals, I think all of Syracuse, Bill, could hear me yelling and screaming and hooting and hollering. And then Beltran struck out looking with the bat on his shoulders. Oh, yeah. I met fans aren't going to like to hear that.

But I was, as an 18-year-old, you know, diehard crazy, I was giddy, beyond giddy. So you have met second and there's real optimism now because they have an owner who's like, I'm going to do this correctly. I'm going to spend the right amount of money. They have a GM who now doesn't have handcuffs in Alderson. They brought him back. But I mean, this is a guy who won a world championship for them. He also developed the farm system they're gonna be in on one of these big guys i don't know if it's springer bauer whoever they're gonna have a busy off season and remember none of these teams want to spend money now you

know that with the red sox nobody wants to spend cohen's like let's go let's let's get everything so it's kind of a new world bauer would would be the most fun from a New York radio content standpoint because he's a full-fledged lunatic. He's a lunatic. Now, listen, I don't know if he'd play in New York, to be honest with you. You're taking a ball, you get taken out of a game, and you're chucking it in the center field. Maybe not in this Zoom climate that we're living in,

but if you got 20 or 30 reporters in front of him, he is a different kind of cat. Now, he's damn good. He knows how to market himself. It's a bad fit. He could never play with the Yankees. And know this, he and Garrett Cole can't stand one another. They can say whatever they want now.

They pitched at UCLA. They hated each other's guts. Yankees ain't signing Bauer. But you put him on the Mets bill, yeah, from my standpoint, that'd be awesome. I'd love it. I think Springer's great. I've always been so impressed with him.

That would be the best guy. I was hoping the South, the Red Sox would get him actually, but they're not spending money. Would that bother you now if the Red Sox who were dumb enough to let Mookie Betts go, right? Like the guy who can do everything on a baseball field. They said, eh, we're not going to sign him. We're going to penny pinch, even though we're the

Boston freaking Red Sox. I like Springer. He is a stud, but I mean, you could have had Betts, dude. What were they doing? First of all, I'm aware. I know you are. Sorry. I'm aware. I'm aware. You brought up 04, so I got to pay it forward. I'm aware of the facts of the Mookie Betts case.

There's this whole alternative Mookie Betts trade thing going on right now at the Red Sox because I think Fangraphs did this thing about what somebody's value is compared to what they're being paid. And Verdugo and Jeter Downs, two of the guys that got in the trade, their value

are way above what they are as assets. So Red Sox fans are kind of like, eh, I mean, we did lose Mookie, but the trade was pretty good. It's like, no, no, no. We lost a generation superstar. The trade's still not good. Whether we got a good haul back.

Drive me insane. They drive me insane. And listen, I'm not like dismissing analytics. There's a ton of value in it. Managers need it. Front office is needed. If they're not looking at it it they're not doing their job but like the idea that you're going to try to make the argument to me from some stupid dopey analytic that you're better off over the next five years please please i think the reality people have talked themselves

into is it was an indefensible awful trade at least we got a couple good guys back all right that sounds a little better it loses me with the at least but i for dugo i do think was a promising piece but to lose a generational superstar who also would have meant an incredible amount to It loses me with the at least, but for Dugo, I do think was a promising piece, but to lose a generational superstar who also would have meant an incredible amount to Boston off the field over the last 10, you know, it's basically like you losing Jeter in like 1998.

Yeah. You know, would that have been worth it? I'm going to say no. Or Bernie going to your team, which almost happened. You know, they almost signed Albert Bell. Could you imagine? First of all, I'm aware.

Second of all, Bernie. I'm really rubbing it in. Listen, you got all Albert Bell. Could you imagine? First of all, I'm aware. Second of all, Bernie. I'm really rubbing it in. Listen, you got all these titles. You're okay. Bernie dictates this big time. I love it. He basically, we were buying him drinks at the bar, and he's like, yeah, I don't know.

I might come home with you. And then he's like, I'm going to go to the bathroom. I'll be right back. And he was just gone. And then he was in a press conference. Basically sounds like my junior year at Chuck's in Syracuse. That's about right. Yeah, he's like, where'd Bernie go? I thought he was just gone. And then he was in a press conference. Basically sounds like my junior year at Chuck's in Syracuse. That's about right. Where'd Bernie go?

I thought he was coming back. Cause I know he's actually going to sign with the Yankees. All right. So you have Yankees one, Mets two, who's three. This is tough. This is tough because I was very tempted to put the Knicks here because of

what it would mean. Like if indeed they were ever good, but I can't cause right now we're nowhere close to the Knicks being any good what it would mean like if indeed they were ever good but I can't because right now we're nowhere close to the Knicks being any good well can we can we say the Knicks fans are almost like when you have a subscription that you decided not to reactivate you go in your Apple and you you say I'm not I'm not subscribing anymore but you also know you can go back on Apple and just resubscribe whenever you want to whatever app or newspaper or whatever. That's the next to their fans right now.

Basically. Yeah. So from like a talking point standpoint, unless it's off season stuff or maybe Barrett actually looks like a player, it's going to be the giants. You know, it has to be, first of all,

they're a better, more well-run organization. Second of all, they got more pedigree. And now all of a sudden, you look at the Giants, they're building towards something here. I was very skeptical when they hired Judge from New England because I'm like, oh, geez, another New England assistant.

I was kind of warming up to the idea, though, after what I saw Flores do with my team. And I'm like, all right, worked with with Belichick. Worked with Saban. You know, he's got a little pedigree about him. Bill, he's awesome, dude. Everybody loves him because he's not trying to beat Belichick. You know, that was Patricia's problem.

Patricia, who was an embarrassment. I was actually dumb enough to bet the Lions over seven wins. I know, I have issues. I have a division bet on them too. I feel your pain. Yeah, it was just stupidity. But we'll leave it at that.

Guys who try to be Belichick are not going to work. Judge has a little bit more personality about him, but he's also a problem solver. They had an issue on the offensive line. Offensive line coach wasn't cutting it. He said, hey, I'm getting in there. I'm fixing the

problem. I'm bringing my own guy in. Guess what? The offensive line over the last five weeks has been much better. So I think for the first time since Coughlin, the Giants have a head coach. I don't know if Daniel Jones is any good, but we'll see. But when you have a coach, it kind of makes things, I think as a whole, a lot easier to digest. And I think we can now welcome the Giants back to being an NFL team. They weren't for like the last five years. They're now back as an NFL franchise.

Something else happened. Well, two other things have happened over the course of the last eight weeks. One is that it's an old school Giants team, right? It's like the tough, no nonsense coach and the good defense. And you know, the Giant fan loves that. the last eight weeks. One is that it's an old school Giants team, right? It's like the tough, no-nonsense coach and the good defense.

And you know the Giant fan loves that, dude. That's what they grew up with. Yeah. Sunday, Giant at one, the Parcells, the Lawrence Taylor, the Phil Simms fan.

Yeah, they crave that set of football. They get annoyed when they play primetime games. They get annoyed when the Giants throw the ball 50 times. That is true.

The 16-13 final type of thing. Like, that Seattle game, that's like the Giants fan wet dream. They make Wilson look terrible. They do just enough to win.

They pull it out. It's an upset. And they... One of my friends, I said on Sunday's pod, was saying he thought they could potentially have five Pro Bowlers

on defense. I don't know if there could be that many. I think that's a little much. It's an old school defense. I actually think about the Giant defense being really good. You know Fluke wins in the NFL. We see him all the time. That was not a Fluke win for the Giants.

It was not a Fluke win. That was a legit win. They were the better team. They kicked the crap out of Wilson. Wilson was running for his life. Everything about that game for the better team. They kicked the crap out of Wilson. Wilson was running for his life. You know, everything about that game for the Giants, game plan, coaching, effort was better. They deserved to win.

And now, how crazy is it? Giants and Washington, two teams that we thought were embarrassing as of like six weeks ago, they're coming off wins against the Seahawks and the Steelers. That's football, bro. Well, the funny thing is, you could have two NFC East playoff teams.

It's not like unrealistic. Like if someone said to you when you and Sal are doing the pot a month ago, if I called in, right, or I wrote an email or whatever, and I said, yeah, two NFC East playoff teams. What odds would you give me? You would have said 50 to one. I would have given you 20 to one at least. Yeah.

21 at least. I mean, crazy. And now, because the Cardinals have fallen apart, the Niners got smoked. Nobody trusts Kirk Cousins and the Vikings. It's possible. The Niners. That was... I had such a good week, and then the Niners showed up. Yeah, you and me both. That was the kiss

of death, to be honest with you. You having a good week. That we both liked that. Me having a bad week. Me having a good week, and then we were both riding the Niners. Yeah, that was just... That was going to be honest with you. You having a good week. We both liked that. Me having a bad week. Me having a good week. And then we were both riding the Niners. Yeah, that was just That was going to be the cherry on the hot fudge sundae of the gambling week I had. And then the Niners are just getting annihilated defensively.

And the announcers are talking about Robert Salah. He's going to have his pick of head coaching jobs. I was like, they're giving up 11 yards of play. He's getting a head coaching job. Could they get out of zone, Bill? I was like, they're giving up 11 yards of play. He's getting a head coaching job? It's funny. We have a Bills fan in one of my group chats

with guys I work with and used to work with, and he loves Josh Allen. And I think Josh Allen's been better than I thought. I kind of spit on him when he got drafted because I heard he was inaccurate. He's been better than I thought. Does some stupid stuff from time to time. But, like But he's talking

Allen up. The accuracy. I'm like, dude, I could have rolled out of bed and made half those passes yesterday. I mean, come on, man. They were dropping in the zone. It was like Diggs, Beasley. There was nobody near him. I never understand why they didn't have eight defensive backs out there. They literally couldn't stop

anybody. I don't know what they were doing. But anyway, one other thing in the Giants. I talked about this on Sunday, but we got to mention it just because literally couldn't stop anybody. I don't know what they were doing. But anyway, one other thing in the Giants. I talked about this on Sunday, but we got to mention it just because you know more than anybody. There's a chance it's Giants Tampa in round one. Wouldn't that be fun? The trilogy, the Brady versus

the Giants. Tell my audience what would happen to the Giants fans during the week leading up to the Brady playoffs. First of all, to be honest with you, with you Bill from my standpoint it would become insufferable because anytime the Giants take on the Patriots or take on Tom Brady here's what I hear all the time we own the Pats right we own Brady we're going to win even though the Giants put some teams on the field against New England over the last few years, that had no chance. You had to, like, kind of entertain it on the air because it's like,

you know, they kind of have a point. They didn't beat them in two Super Bowl games, even though these teams, rosters, whatever, are drastically, drastically different. Yes, Giant defense. If it's balling out and they're playing well, and you see Tommy boys struggling with that pass rush. I mean, we saw it in the Rams Monday night game that cost me a few bucks. We saw it against new Orleans that cost me a little

bit more. Cause I feel like I bet on the box and I bet on the Colts every single week. Yeah. The giant fan will absolutely be thinking we can stick it to Brady one last time And send him packing So someone like you who might not be Rooting for Brady this year You're going to have no choice I know you're getting back in the Brady bandwagon For one more week

You can't root for the Giants there, Phil Here's what I root for The teams I picked Yeah, you root for your bad If it's Giants plus 7.5 And I talk myself Here's what I root for The teams I picked So Yeah you root for your bet If I have to do If it's Giants Plus seven and a half And I talk myself

Into that And the plus 290 And I'm just like I'm all in On the Giants Upsetting Tampa I will root for it And

Ignore the Ignore the Giants fans after You know It's crazy I didn't think An NFC East team Would be in a position Where they're an underdog

By less than a touchdown. It's kind of getting to that point. I mean, Tampa, I need a big bounce back this week against Minnesota, but from the Giant angle, yes. I think if there's one team the Giant fan would love to see in the playoffs because of the storyline,

it's Tampa. It would be unbelievable. It's too bad they lost Barkley for a variety of reasons. Mainly, he was so much freaking fun to watch. But it would have been, this is the type of team that would have been like the dream Barkley team, right? Where it's like running defense, good coach. Well, and now I want to see what Barkley can do with this team. Now, Bill, I hated the pick.

When they made the pick, that was like material for me for like years on radio. Now, as it turns out, I would have recommended they took Sam Darnold from the New York Jets, which as we know, is not looking too good right now. I just don't ever understand the idea of taking a running back at two when you don't have a complete team, right? Like the Giants were not a running back away from being you know a legit playoff team a super bowl contender that's why i've been screaming for years that gettleman should get fired and now a guy who's been roasting gettleman rightfully so now i kind of got to eat a little

crow this year because every move he made the off seasons leonard williams blake martinez bradbury from Carolina, who's been a stud. Your buddy, Logan Ryan. Logan Ryan has really helped the Giants. And nobody wanted to sign him. He was sitting there for weeks. Well, and I think it was like a money thing, number one.

And I do think he wanted to play in New York because I think he's a Jersey guy, went to Rutgers. So I feel like there was that tie in there. Thought he was going to go to the Jets. He ends up going to the Giants. Good decision. Very good decision. All right. We're going to take one more break. Coming back, we'll rush through. It gets grim with these next five. Very grim. One break. Prime Big Deal Days is coming October 8th and 9th with exclusive savings just for Prime members. In-hoo! Involuntary deal squeals can happen, like the deal on new running shoes squeal. Woo-hoo!

The deal on a new blender squeal. Yeah! Or the infamous deal on a new massager squeal. Yeah! Save big on electronics, fashion, and more this Prime Big Deal Days, October 8th and 9th. All right, we're back. We have five teams left in the power ranking. So far, you have Yankees 1, Mets 2, Giants 3.

I got to be honest. I thought Giants were going to be 2. So I'm already surprised as we unfold here. Who do you have at number 4? Ooh, number 4. I'm throwing a Knicks there. Okay. I'm throwing a Knicks there. Legacy. Legacy pick. It's a legacy pick. And maybe this is like a little bit of wishful thinking on my part that like at some point in my life, they're going to be relevant. I mean, it never happened, but if indeed it does

built, no matter what these rankings may be, cross them off, get rid of them. If the Knicks get good, they will be the number one team in town, and I don't even think it will be close. That's how thirsty the Knicks fan is. Think about Jeremy Lin, right? Jeremy Lin was like, Knicks fans didn't know what to do with themselves. That, Omori for a half year, and I'll never forgive the Knicks, by the way. That amnesty. They should have given it to Stoudemire. They could have had Chris Paul.

Now, does that team win? Do they beat LeBron? Probably not, but they're going to the playoffs at least four or five years in a row. You'd have to figure. It's way more relevant even whoever they get instead of the Tyson Chandler,

the Amnesty Billups. All of it was insane. I remember writing about it at the time, like, this is insane. You can't do this unless you're guaranteeing yourself a title, which they weren't even close to. But that's why they've been the Knicks for the last 20 years. How bored would you have to be

on like a Thursday night show in March to do the could yannis come to new york segment oh geez like would the new york fans would just reject it like a kidney transplant like it's so unrealistic you know like the mike hand wave that would be a hand wave because i'm sick of it dude like how many times and i even got suckered in this is the last time for me I got suckered in that Durant and Kyrie who I can't stand by the way I'm actually glad he's not a Knick he's the absolute worst if he was playing for the Knicks he doesn't realize how bad it would be I mean 40 million dollars not not talking in the media must be nice I wish I had that problem but I would suckered

into the idea that both of those guys are going to be Knicks. The minute they signed with Brooklyn, I said, that's it. No more of this, well, will the Knicks sign so-and-so? I'm done until I actually see it happen. I'm done. Yeah.

Davis, I think, they would have maybe had a chance on if the Lakers thing had gone badly just because of the Kentucky stuff because they clearly have all this Kentucky DNA. Now it's done. It's a wrap. He's not leaving LeBron.

Booker would be the other one to watch, but Phoenix has made all these moves to turn themselves into a contender. And that's probably not happening either. Unless that goes badly. Like Chris Paul gets hurt. Who knows? There's a world in which Phoenix is super disappointing and the Booker thing might open up in four months,

but we'll see. All right. So you got Nick's four. I agree with that. Who's five. Got to go Jets five. It's got to be Jets five. And listen, they're the second football team in town. Not by much. I mean, I think it's a pretty even, you know, 55, 45 type of split. The Jet fan is very loud though. And they are very tortured and you lump them in to the Knicks fan. You lump them in to the nick fan you lump them in to the med fan and their fortunes could potentially change in about a month if they find out number one

pick is theirs warrens is not gonna leave you know he's dialed into the idea of coming to new york which you should be i mean new york jacksonville does it really make a difference if you're that good you gotta do it because of the injury stuff you have to yeah you can't go back to school and She should be. I mean, New York, Jacksonville, does it really make a difference? If you're that good, you kind of – You got to do it because of the injury stuff. You have to. Yeah, you can't go back to school. And I don't see him pulling like an Eli Manning, John Elway power play. I feel like that never happens anymore.

Like everyone said last year, Joe Burrow was going to do that. It didn't happen. So I think if Lawrence comes to the Jets, they get the right coach, all of a sudden, their future, which right now looks as bad as can be, can kind of change on and on. And the funniest thing is the Jets fans are listening to this going, A, we'll get the number one pick,

and then Lawrence will be like, I'm not coming. Or B, he'll just get... He'll pull Peyton Manning. Right, he'll pull Peyton Manning. Or B, he just gets hurt in the first month and a half and has an injury-plagued career. And it's like, oh my God, why didn't this guy make it? Well, I can't even fault them because that's what they've seen their entire lives.

So, I mean, from that standpoint, am I going to try to talk them out of it? No. Yeah, it's interesting because Red Sox fans, which were, I think, tortured as much as just about anybody, we were always weirdly hopeful. That was the weirdest thing about Red Sox fans. It was always like we would get kicked in the nuts. He'd go into curl into, you know, into a ball and stare at a wall for two months

and then come back being like, all right, if we just get this guy, this could be the year. And we would talk ourselves back into it. You bought it every year. Jack Clark, you're going down the line. Jets fans have hit a point where they're just like We're fucked The worst is always going to happen

There's no way out It's like they're in a maximum security prison If you think about it too They've seen more success Than maybe Than they want to admit They were in back-to to back AFC title games. Right.

Horsell's got them the relevance. Herm took them to the playoffs a bunch. Like Bill, I have not seen my team in my lifetime in an AFC title game. So when I hear the Jeff fan complaint, it's like, you know, I guys,

honestly, it's bad, but you could have it worse. It's because it's because they're usually also next fans and Mets fans. I think, I think it ties into this. It's this web of torture. That's what it is.

So the most fun thing would be if they got the number one pick and Lawrence said he didn't want to play there, but then eventually decided to play there, but you got two months out of, fuck this guy. If he doesn't want to play, I don't want to root for him.

And you get all those calls for two months. You're getting some of that already. And it's amazing, Bill. I think even though you have a guy who can't miss prospect there's a quotient of the audience that doesn't want to believe it even though they haven't watched college football even though they probably don't know a damn thing about trevor lawrence they're like i'm sick and tired of hearing about this guy he ain't that good you know like you're getting those guys it's like come on man give me a break. All right. So who's six? Wow. Six Rangers. Okay. We could gloss over them. Who's seven? So the Nets are, the Nets are seven. Yes. Bill did a second basketball team in town. I don't

care if they have Durant and Irving. Like I'm thinking about it from my standpoint. Our station has the Nets. Durant and Irving are megastars nationally. But I get the sense Brooklyn has become far more of a national topic and a national story than they are a local story. Now, I want to see – they go win 55 games. You know, we get people back at Barclays, which is like a 15 minute walk, by the way,

from where I live. So I wouldn't mind if they're good. Cause then I could go, you know, go for a run and walk to park slope or whatever and go to their games. I like that. Um, but I'm curious to see the dynamic of if the nets are good,

relevant and vying for championships, if they're going to be able to grow that sort of fan base. Cause right now the fan base, despite what people may tell you, it's still as low as can be. Can I tell you what's going to happen? What's that? It will never happen. I agree with that. Even if they win a championship, it will...

Nobody will care. It's the Nets. I don't care if you're in Brooklyn. It's still the Nets. You can't... Because we have the exact same thing here with the Lakers and the Clippers. The Clippers, if they got Kawhi

and Paul George, zero people transferred over. It doesn't matter. The only difference is the Lakers still have been far more of a successful brand. I know they were coming off five or six miserable years, the end of Kobe, all that stuff.

It's still a Laker brand. It was like eight miserable years, but it didn't matter. The Laker fans were never going anywhere. They were never jumping ships. The Knicks fans are like that too

because it becomes the generation thing. It becomes fans from like seven years old to 80. And the Nets are not going to be able to compete with that.

It's impossible. But here's the Nets hope though. The Nets hope is getting the 13, 14, 15-year-old kid who's in their formative years. They're good. They're playing games that matter. That's your hope for growing the fan base and the franchise. That, to me, is the only way you do it with that young fan.

Here's my counter. I think those kids are rooting for players, not teams. Yeah, but those players are there, though. Yeah, but I'm saying, I'm saying like, if they're a Durant fan, they're going to root for Durant. If they like Zion,

they're going to root for Zion. I don't even think they think about rooting for a franchise in the same way, which is the difference with like, somebody like the Knicks or the Lakers. Like, if you're a Knicks fan, it's because your parents were Knicks fans or your dads were Knicks.

You inherit the Knicks. You inherit the Knicks. You inherit the Lakers. You're not inheriting the Nets. You might root for Durant. It's like what happened here with the Clippers with Lob City. It's like, oh, Lob City, people were in hats. And it was done in a year. Nobody cared.

And that's going to be the Nets. Yeah, I get that. I want to see how it plays out, though, with the younger fan base because the other problem you continue to have is the Knicks. Even if you inherit it, they suck. And as bad as they have been. And they have no way out. Well, that's the thing.

There's no quick fix. They're going to be bad. They need to. Honestly, they got to walk into one of these generational guys in the draft. That's the only way. Well, how about the John Morant pick? Even that. They didn't get Zion, about the, how about the John Moran pick? Even that, like they didn't get Zion,

but they also didn't get John Moran. No Moran and Barrett's. He's okay, but he's not those two guys. It's a problem. And that's why life as a Nick fan, Bill sucks, sucks.

So net seven. And then Islanders eight. We don't have to talk about them. Don't tell Kevin. They're distant eight, but distant eight. Yes. All right.

Those are our power rankings. Tell people how you can listen to your show on the fan. I appreciate that. So I'm on Monday to Friday, 7 to 11. You'll like this. We do a half hour gambling show from 7 to 7.30. And then we let it rip, man. And hopefully it's going to be an interesting couple weeks.

And I think from the Giants and the Jets and then all the stuff with the baseball, we'll be rocking and rolling, man. Did you talk yourself into the Pats getting points against the Rams this week or no? Cam Newton who can't throw a football nine yards? They were as good to me as any team. I don't know about the Rams.

I got to dive into that matchup. And what are we putting on the line? I'm already looking ahead now. Next week, your boys come to Miami, and that is when we put to bed the Patriots for 2020, I hope. What are we putting on the line there? Steak dinner next time you're in New York or I'm out in LA? Yeah, we should bet.

Yeah, I think that's a dinner. I think it's a dinner. I feel weirdly confident in that game, though, because I think Miami, I don't think Tua's ready to beat a really smart coach yet. Well, I'm worried about the rookie quarterback, but how is Cam Newton completing passes against that Dolphin defense that's

been badass? The Cam Newton piece worries me. The fact that he cannot throw a pass on a straight line to guys on his team is a concern. Well, and remember, he smoked the Dolphins the first game of the year. Right. Smoked them. Ran all over them.

I hope that Brian Flores can pull a page out of Belichick's playbook, the revenge game, have a little film, a little work on how to slow down Cam. That'll be an ugly game, Bill. That'll be a game where the Dolphins say, Tua, you're not screwing it up. We're not going to have you do stupid shit. And I'm telling you, they're playing the Chiefs this week. They got to let him open it up and throw. Second half against the Bengals. Get some confidence. He looks like Tua at Alabama. Open it up. And Shane Gailey, don't get me started. Nobody needs to hear this, but please don't get me started. You know, it's funny. I'll leave you on this note.

We talked about the Giants fans and this weird inner confidence they would have against the Bucs that has no basis in reality other than these two games against Tom Brady. If the Pats got the seventh seed and Pittsburgh was the two seed,

we've owned Pittsburgh for like almost two decades. I'm telling you right now, I'm betting the Patriots. I don't care what the number is. We would have this weird confidence and our quarterback cannot throw a ball 10 yards. And we would say, yes, the Steelers.

That's our team. We own them. Well, it's kind of like the confidence I have with the Dolphins in Florida against your team. That Monday night game. Yeah, that's another one. Remember this. Cutler.

I went down. Good weekend in Miami. Team stunk. I'm like, there's no chance in the world they're going to win. Threw a couple bucks on a money line. I said, screw it. Why not? Went and roamed.

Cutler had the game of his life. Brady stunk. And they were like a plus 375 money line win. Miami and Pat, not a good mix, man. You could do a documentary on all the Patriots parlays and teasers that have died in Miami. I like that. I like that. It has happened many times. All right. JJ, good to see you. Thank you. have died in Miami. I like that. It is. It has happened many

times. All right, JJ, good to see you. Thank you, Bill. My pleasure. Thanks, man. At Pennzoil, we have one job pioneering a motor oil so advanced you don't have to think about your motor oil. Instead, you can think about how your engine sounds, how your stomach feels as the RPMs build, how your wheels hug the curves, and how with the Pennzoil Platinum up to 15-year, 800,000-kilometer protection guarantee, your adventures will be many. Pennzoil. Long may we drive. Available at your local Canadian tire. Enrollment required. Keep your receipts. Other conditions apply. See Pennzoil.ca slash warranty for full details. All right. My old friend Dave Jacoby is here.

We used to work together at ESPN and had a website called grantland.com where Jacoby ran video and audio and wrote reality recaps and covered the bad quarterback lead and did a podcast with a guy named Jalen Rose. It was a long time ago. Long time ago.

God, I really thought that those days would last forever. Like I thought I would be like in my 70s, like still writing the bad quarterback league and the reality show column. I really thought that was going to be just forever. I thought when we got the, when we had the Greenland basketball hour going and we got the chair, that giant fake championship chair, I really thought we were all there for life after we used our budget for a chair, a gold chair. Like, well, should we completely shut down Grantland? It's like, well, we did invest $900 in that chair. We don't want that to be a sunk cost. It was the Lawrence O'Brien trophy chair. It's unbelievable.

What happened to it? Where did it go? It was actually for Beatles reveal because the Spurs had just won the championship. Oh yeah. Spun around like, like a, like a lazy Susan in the middle of a table at a Chinese restaurant. And she was, she had the Lawrence O'Brien trophy chair. I had it in my office for a while. I don't know where that thing is now.

Well, you can hear Jacoby with, uh, on the Jalen and Jacoby show, which is on television and it's available as a podcast as well. Um, we have an announcement. show, which is on television and it's available as a podcast as well. We have an announcement. Dave Jacoby and I are going to be recapping the challenge this year. We're doing the preview on the BS

podcast, but then when it starts, when the season starts on Wednesday night, we're going to be moving over to the ringer dish and we're just going to be doing 20-minute recaps of each episode. We're going to fly through it. It's going to go fast. Um, if, if one of us can't do an episode, we'll bring in Juliet off the bench with no warmup, just bring it right in, throw, throw a hundred miles an hour. But, um, we're going to do this. Timeout, timeout. You're already soft committing. You're already, you're already soft committing to

the project. You announced it into the same time you quit it. Like 10 seconds later. Yes, you did. You're like, I have an announcement to make that I might or may not be doing this thing with Jacoby. You and I are doing it. We're doing it. We have an awesome backup

just in case anything weird happens. Absolutely. Like there may be a week, who knows? Can I make a suggestion? We did this with Food News Podcast. I think it should be like exactly 20 minutes. Like a buzzer. Like there's a buzzer at the end we cannot speak after 20. so way way back when i had the uh early years of the bs report when you were just working at uh

was it eoe eoe espn original entertainment right and i used to have you come on you were the czar of reality. And we would talk. I remember the best one we ever did was we watched the Jersey Shore pilot and we put out a podcast the next day that is still among the best work I did. People mention 30 for 30, stuff like that. I always think Jersey Shore pod first. It's the most impactful piece of content I've produced in two decades at this company. It's just great stuff. But we also did a lot of challenge.

And one of our theses was the challenge is the fifth major professional sport. So what happens? They do this preview that I see a commercial for the new challenge. Double agents. And they're running quotes like it's a movie. And it says, the challenge should be the fifth professional sport, SB Nation. Well, listen.

Do you know how much that hurt? We were saying this in 2007, that this was the fifth professional sport. Fuck you, MTV. I'm starting there. Great, great way to start. First of all, I love the great, I'm sure there are great people at SB Nation,

but you know what? It's who popularizes it. You know what I mean? We know, the people that know, know. The people that have been listening from the very beginning, they absolutely know. And one thing I love about this is

this is really born out of like us being in Vegas, being surrounded by gambling and like nightclubs and like attractive women. And just the two of us talking about reality TV, drunk, like at a bar, like nothing else existed, like nothing else existed. Could it be more true? Every single vice was at our fingertips and we're just like, no, let's talk about Temptation Island for an hour and a half.

I have some thoughts on Johnny Bananas. Yeah, exactly. Well, when we launched Grantland, it's funny because Grantland, there's this revisionist history now. It was like a long form site and stuff like that. You look at that first year. One of the things we tripled down on was the challenge in reality TV. And it led to us going to Las Vegas and filming a horse for the Grantland horse title, filming an actual video that TJ Lavin and Leroy

were involved with. And TJ was the announcer. I won. It was the worst loss of your career. And then TJ said that I killed it. And he said that, you know, you did a great job, but it just wasn't enough.

You're going to have to say goodbye, Dave Jacoby. And you were devastated. Devastated. Because behind the scenes, I missed two huge free throws that first year at Grantland. One in the three-on-three tournament outside of Staples Center. That was terrible free throws. And then during the horse

competition, you shot like no behind the back, bounce it off of this or that, just a straight up free throw. And I missed it. That was devastating. But then he called Leroy because Leroy was living at Vegas at the time, transitioned to this season. And then once Leroy is involved, I remember meeting him. It was like, it was, people say like, oh, it's like meeting Bill Clinton or Michael Jordan. They've got this magic mystique about them., I remember meeting him. It was like, people say, oh, it's like meeting Bill Clinton or Michael Jordan. They've got this magic mystique about them. No, no, no. This was like shaking hands with God. We all wanted to be best friends

with Leroy within three minutes. He was coming off the real world Las Vegas season, which I think was a few months earlier. So we had loved him from that season. We didn't realize he was going to become basically the John Elway of the challenge where this great Hall of Fame career,

but can't get over the hump, can't win the Super Bowl. 11 seasons Leroy's been on. So I'm going to start here. I'm not shy. I'm not embarrassed. We've had a pandemic the last nine months. I may have texted you and Juliet a couple of times about it.

I watched every challenge season that was available since season 11 during the pandemic when there was no sports. I was very concerned about you. Well, there was no sports. And I like having stuff in the background or I'm doing work. I just like having things. So I just kind of started watching the challenges on Pluto. And Leroy, I forgot his best chance was

the season with hurricane Naya. And he really had a chance to win that year. They were probably the best team or one of the best two teams, but Naya was like, just trying to drive that car with the bad tire where it's like, I think I can make it home. And then it's a blowout pulled over and she, she freaked out. And that was Leroy's best chance. Well, I just want, I don't want to talk too long about just what a psycho, crazy person you are, but just being like,

you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to start season one of the challenge and watch every single one, all 36 seasons, every single episode is a very, very uniquely strange and twisted thing to do.

I may have gone to a side text with Juliet being like, is Bill okay? The pandemic and the quarantine has hit us all in unique ways, but I'm very concerned about our mutual friend, Bill. Is he okay? And she was like, I think he's all right. I hit a dark spot in May and June without sports.

I'm not going to lie. I miss sports and competition so much that it led me to 25 seasons of the challenge. And I watched all of them. Without sports, you just become the guy. You're not the sports guy. I'm like, what do I have? I'm the guy now. I'm just a guy. Who am I without people

competing for dumb reasons? Sports guy. Well, Double Ages is back. It was filmed during COVID in Iceland. There are three twists for this season. One is No Johnny Bananas, the most iconic competitor in the history

of the Challenge, coming off yet another title. He's got seven and he's not on this season. I'll be honest, something's not adding up with the John. I don't know if it's a contract dispute or a leverage thing. He's got a really good agent. He's got that show on after Saturday Night Live,

which is a great time slot. You watch Saturday Night Live, and the next thing you know, it goes right into Johnny Bananas. Not that I ever stay up that late because I've got three little kids, but he's got real jobs doing real things, and I think just the timing didn't work out for him.

Or maybe it was a leverage thing with Bananas and MTV. I don't know. Where they're just like, you have to have Bananas for the challenge, and Challenge just like, you have to have bananas for the challenge. And challenge is like, watch this. Because they stacked this season. They did. Johnny Bananas is, other than Leroy, my favorite.

I think he's essential for the show. And I'm going to miss him. But they have a great show. So that was twist one. Twist two, only 10 skulls. 10 skulls. Total to make the finals. So last year,

they did this weird thing where it was like you have to earn somebody else's skull. They're basically forcing people to go into the Inferno, whatever the duel, whatever it was called.

This year, there's 10 skulls total. So it's almost like it's a table for 10. You got to get a seat. Did you like that wrinkle? The skulls, it's like the shot clock

in the NBA. They're never going to go back. It's a good rule. You have to earn your way into TJ's final. Have you noticed TJ has taken ownership over the final in the past few seasons? He calls it his final. You're going to have to run my final. I love that he's taken ownership over the

final. It's his personal contest. So to get into TJ's, yes, Mr. Lavin, your personal final, you have to have a skull. And I think they will never go back. It's a great, I got to say TJ's at the peak of his powers right now. Oh, 10 years ago. I feel like we were the ones on my podcast as we were like the only people with any sort of platform talking about the challenge, talking about how much we loved that TJ hated quitters. Yes. And how disappointed he would be.

And he's leaned into it a lot over the last 10 years. He's really leaned into it. I loved it. To the point where you almost feel like there's a couple of years where it feels like they paid off people to quit during a challenge just for the TJ reaction of disappointment,

anger, and dismay. He's really hit his stride. He's taken ownership. It's impossible to think of. It's a lot like Jeff Probst. It's impossible to think of. It's, it's a lot like Jeff Probst. It's impossible to separate the show from the host. Now. I can't imagine anyone else.

Chris Harrison. Yeah. And all three of them, I would say Jeff is probably the most skilled at their job, but all three of them, it's like, there is no good or bad. It's just, they're synonymous with the program. You can't, you can't, You can't replace any of those people. And the respect the competitors on the challenge have for TJ. Yes.

Is the highest level. It was honestly the most emotional moment in the history of reality when TJ had the bike accident. It didn't seem like he was going to come back to us to show that season. And they did the reveal and he came out and he was still kind of banged up from the accident. Yeah, he wasn't all the way there that season. He'll admit it.

It was like Willis coming out in MSG for Game 7. The contestants, people were crying. It was really emotional. I was crying. I was crying. That fucking guy. Great lessons learned. So that was twist two.

Twist three, and this is something they've dabbled in in the reality community where they'll grab people from other shows. Last year, they had a survivor competitor named Jay, who was actually really good. And last they'd won a couple of challenges. This year they went up a notch. They added Natalie from survivor who pound for pound is probably the best female competitor in the history of survivor and could single-handedly just

win challenges and keep herself alive for episodes at a time. And when you watched her on Survivor, especially last year, you'd think, man, she'd be really good at the challenge. And then the challenge was like, hey, she'd be, and they pulled her in and now she's the favorite, right?

It's hard for her to call a rookie a favorite because of the way that sort of the veterans will, and with the politics and stuff, you can't be a favorite as a rookie. But she won her Survivor Challenge, her Survivor season, and then she came in second in the All-Star season,

which is wild. And they also got a guy from some show called Ultimate Beastmaster. What's this thing? Ultimate Beastmaster. What show is that? You could tell me

that Ultimate Beastmaster has any format. It could be about anything until we call it Ultimate Beastmaster. any format. It could be about anything. It's porn. Yeah, who knows? They build cars. They eat food. It's like house eats.

Who knows what it is? Yeah, they dabbled around. I think one of the things they... You look, they have one, two, three... A WWE wrestler. Right. They have nine newcomers. Yeah.

And I think they made an attempt to upgrade, basically try to make it not too, not too athletic and a little more, a little more of a mix of maybe, you know, the kind of people that are attractive on a reality show. I was about to say the athletes. Very easy on the eyes.

The newcomers, very easy on the eyes. The males and female newcomers. Very easy on the eyes. Iers very easy on the eyes the males male and female newcomers very easy on the eyes I've got a couple favorites myself it's like when Belichick has a bad

defense for a year and he just loads up on linebackers and D-backs you're like oh Belichick's trying to fix the defense the challenge was

clearly like we're trying to fix the looks on both sides here so they did that and I gotta say the cast so we're gonna go through it I separated it into seven categories while got to say the cast. So we're going to go through it. I separated this seven categories.

While we're on the rookies, we have to mention Lolo Jones. Because Lolo Jones is technically a challenge rookie, but she was on that like pros versus whatever weird season. And if you didn't watch that season carefully, it is hard to overstate just how crazy Lolo Jones is. It's very difficult. She's extremely athletic and a wild card in every facet.

Romantically, politically, physically, fights, everything. She is just wild. And I am so excited for her to be on the challenge. She took the show. I did watch that season. It was the only one I watched. Champs versus Joes, whatever. Champs versus pros. She took

the show the most seriously in all capacity of anyone I think who's ever been on an MTV challenge show. If somebody double-crossed her or wasn't honest with her, she was genuinely hurt and vengeful and just couldn't believe it. I don't think she realized that it was a

reality show. No. She's got one speed. She cried multiple times, but she was also an incredible athlete. They're adding two monster athletes. The newbies, Lolo Jones, we mentioned Natalie,

and then there's two Ambers. Amber B. Amber B and Amber M. There's a Gabby, there's a Joseph, there's a Leo, there's a Leo, there's a Mechie, there's a Nam, and there's a Liv. And all of them are attractive for the most part. Absolutely. Life and death were two very realistic coexisting possibilities in my life.

I didn't even think I'd make it to like my 16th birthday, to be honest. I grew up being scared of who I was. Any one of us at any time can be affected by mental health and addictions. Just taking that first step makes a big difference. It's the hardest step. But CAMH was there from the beginning. Everyone deserves better mental health care. To hear more stories of recovery, visit CAMh.ca. All right. So I separated this six categories. First one is the champs.

Time out. You did prep? I did prep. You did prep? Oh, Bill, that warms my heart, buddy. Why do I know how important this is to you? I didn't want you to think I mailed it in. You already think I'm going to ditch it and hand it off to Julia.

I produced the BS report for quite some time. And sometimes you didn't prep. Sometimes you didn't prep. You know what? Sometimes you're so gifted, you don't have to prep. I produced the BS report for quite some time and sometimes he didn't prep. Sometimes he didn't prep. You know what? Sometimes you're so gifted you don't have to prep. Good job. That's what I tell

the kids in high school. You're an artist. You're an artist. Yeah, to overthink it. Don't get in your own way. Don't overthink it. Don't get in your own way. You know what?

Clint Eastwood, one take, move on to the next one. Yeah, exactly. Champs. There's four real major champs that are coming back. One is Wes. And Wes has really evolved into mid-30s Wes.

Kind of looks like he should be on Yellowstone battling Cole Hauser in season four. Kind of a vibe to him, right? Well, he's really adjusted his game over the years, and it's like Vince Carter way. You know what I mean? Right. He's like, I used to sort of out-athlete people

and be wild and get in fights and be emotional, and now he just kind of saddles up next to the new people, puts his arm around some people, gains their trust, and then eventually sort of does whatever he can in the end to win. But he doesn't have the physical abilities he used to have at all. There's one season, it's in the 2010-11 range,

when he's outnumbered coming out of the gate and he just decides I'm wreaking havoc. Cornered animal. Yeah, it's cornered animal. I'm going to try to get bananas to punch me. It was the season when he did the screaming of bananas face and made it seem like he was going to headbutt and bananas flinch and then he

laughed evilly at bananas. He was just cornered animal the whole season. He's mellowed, I think a lot since then. Oh, you think? Yeah. Yeah. I think he was a full-fledged maniac that season.

Yes. Yeah. He absolutely was. Absolutely was. And then, and I don't know what was going on through his head or his blood vessels at that time, but he was definitely a very manic back then.

And he is, he is chilled out. He's a, he's a mentor. One of the things I like about having Wes is Wes assumes on the first episode that he's in control of the game. I like those people who are like, the game runs through

me. I'll be making the calls and as the years pass and these newcomers come on and they know what he's like, they're just like, hey, the one thing we can't do is let Wes control anything. And it cuts legs out immediately. So anyway, he's here. Another great champ, CT, speaking of maniacs,

who is another guy who has mellowed out a lot, who has three titles, one of them later in his career. He's putting together a LeBron type of career now. Yes. The totality, the titles came a little later. We gave up on him a couple of times. He won a title with a dad bod. And he is, over the course of this game,

which has now lasted almost two decades, the guy everyone else is afraid of that nobody wants to see in a challenge, that they're trying to foist him off on other people so they can eliminate him. Nobody wants to go head-to-head against him. Something to prove, though, because remember last season he lost to Jay like early. Remember that when Jay took him out earlier,

you were thinking JCT and elimination. I kind of like this Jay guy too bad. He's going to be gone. And then it was, that was one of the biggest upsets in elimination. I can remember. Yeah. When Jay won that one.

So I think he's coming in with a little something to prove. He looks like he's in good shape too. Yeah. CT has wavered in sort of physical well-being a lot over the years. Yeah, I would say a little like Chris Paul, where Chris Paul will have these seasons where he's like, oh, he's going to play himself into shape this year. Now Chris Paul is plant-based diet.

See, if CT, the other great champ they have, the most underrated champ in Challenge history, Darrell. Mm-hmm. And Darrell... We went for a while. Right. Well, because he's kind of the 2000s. He owned the 2000s on the show.

He won four in a row, right? Has he never lost a final or something? He never lost a final. He got kicked out. He had the year where he beat the hell out of Brad. Yeah, yeah. Bubbled Brad. Brad was asking for it.

Bubbled Brad. Yeah. That was a classic. I think he's a boxer, I want to say. I think Darrell's got some sort of don't fight guys that fight. You know what I mean? Don't fight guys that spend five days a week

learning how to punch. Don't do that. Well, and then Brad tried to do the thing afterwards. It was like, no, this giant circle swelling thing over my eye wasn't from a punch. It was because I hit a table on my way down. It was like, wasn't the actual punch that got me. Darrell punched him like 10 times,

but he would have won that year too. That was because I, as we covered earlier, I watched all these seasons again in the pandemic. Darrell was heading for a sweep in the finals. Like he was on the right team. It was completely lopsided. He was going to win his fifth and then Brad

kind of messed it up. What did Carrie think about you watching all the challenges again? Not happy. Yeah, I can imagine. Wasn't happy at all. The next champ, the last one who I consider like a champ champ, is Ashley. No. No. Yeah, she won two.

She's Danny Green. She is Danny Green. Like, Danny Green won back-to-back titles. It's like, yeah, but It had nothing to do with you. Ashley, no. I like Ashley as a character. Feisty in the duels, Infernos. Underrated physical abilities. I like Ashley on the show.

I like Ashley as a character. The skulls are basically the Ashley rule. Like the Spencer Haywood rule. The skulls are the Ashley rule. That's basically what it is. Well, she took advantage of a strategy that was born on Survivor where I'm going to lay low,

nobody thinks I'm a threat, and then all of a sudden there's four people left and I might win. And TJ doesn't play that. No. TJ's like, you got to go in. If you're going to win my final, you've got to go early you got

to win a couple challenges she is a good competitor though i will say even though she's she seems like she you know she's not like super physical anything like that but she's no she's tough though i'm pro ashley and also has has created an incredible amount of drama over the years oh yeah i follow her on Twitter. She's active. And I'm afraid to say something mean about her right now because I don't want her, the Ashley Hive, to come after me. You know what I mean? Well, I'm pro-Ashley,

and she won't come after us. She had a great real-world season, too. She flipped. Oh, yeah. She had a great real-world season. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She flipped. It's like a great college season.

You know what I mean? It's like coming out of college. It's like Jim and Fredette broke all these records. Like Barry Sanders. So those are our four champs. Then the next category, my favorite, sentimental favorites.

Oh, I mean, Leroy's at the top of this. If Leroy's not at the top of this, I'm hanging up this Zoom call right now. I've won a title for every one of my Boston teams. The only things I have left are for my daughter to play in college on a good school and for Leroy to win a challenge.

Those are my last two titles. Leroy has to win the challenge. He's hindered though, in a relationship. What does that mean? I can't, it's, it's always hard to win a challenge in a relationship.

I think Jordan's done it. It's just hard. It just, it, it, it holds you back. It holds you back more than it helps. I always like that strategy session

when you know the right thing to do is to vote in your significant other, but you keep coming up with other ideas. You know what I mean? Well, what about Sandy? We didn't think about Sandy. It's hard to have that person. The support is good.

The connection is good. The confidant to discuss is good. The stability is good, but it hurts in this game to have a significant other on the challenge. Yeah, it's not a coincidence that Bananas went single and then won the challenge again. Leroy,

so him and Cara Maria, I think are the two out of everyone over the years that the swimming thing was a real issue for them. And especially when he got to the finals, there's always swimming. And I think it would really hurt Leroy in those finals. Same for Cara Maria. Both of them worked at it. Cara Maria actually got pretty good at swimming.

Well, Leroy worked at a pool. And Leroy was better. I know. Leroy worked at a pool in Vegas for like three years. It's like, dude, jump in the pool and swim around a little bit. Yeah, the irony of it. So at least I think he might be passable now. And that would be the big thing for him.

But he's one of those. There's been a couple times. One, Camilla, who should have been kicked off the show forever and wasn't, she was mean to Leroy. Don't be mean to Leroy. Who's mean to Leroy? That was the maddest I've ever been watching a reality show. It's like, how dare you be mean to Leroy? Leroy. What has Leroy ever done?

Can I guess your second sentimental favorite? I know it. Oh, you know it. Nani. Of course. Of course. The queen. Her face is like an old pair of jeans. You know what I mean? Like her getting a crush on somebody on the

challenge, just so familiar and just warm and just makes me so happy. It's just like an old t-shirt or something that's just like a childhood blanket. She's like, her getting a crush on somebody on a reality show against her will just makes me feel whole again.

It's going to happen. A lot of people I repeat, a lot of people over the years have gotten a crush on somebody they shouldn't have on a reality TV show. This is one of the staples of reality TV. Nani perfected it. Yes, she's in a relationship right now. What are the chances that during the

course of this season, in Iceland for nine weeks, isolated in a home with all these new, attractive young men and women, what are the chances that she cheats on her, I'm assuming, boyfriend during this season? I don't know. I follow her on Instagram.

They seem pretty solid. I think maybe she might get tempted because it's Nani. The other thing with Nani is she knows how to get herself in the plots. Every season, there's going to be a couple moments she knows like, oh, there's some chaos over here.

I'm coming in off the top rope. And I'm getting my 20 minutes of attention here. So I've got three. I'm going to adjust it because I didn't get, you've got good Instagram intel, but I'll say this. There'll be at least one episode where during the credits, during the open, she has to pause it and her and her boyfriend are sitting next to each other

on the couch and she's like, listen, you're going to see something. It's going to be like episode four. She'll be like, listen, you're going to see something that you're not going to like right around the third segment. Okay. I just want you to know that we were just joking around. It was just not a big deal.

And then he's going to have to eat it while he watches it. She's one of my favorite reality characters ever. I loved when they had the bloodline season. She brought her sister in who is basically like a crazier version of her. And, uh, and they just kind of wreaked havoc. The,

the other classic. Isn't she Massachusetts? I think she's Massachusetts, I want to say. I want to say she's like outside like Lawrence or something. The other classic, she had that season when she was back together with Bananas for exes. Bananas is in a relationship. She knows this. She smelled it.

They get sent to a redemption house and they have to spend all this time together. And at some point, she's just like, I don't know what's going on with me and Bananas it's like nothing's going on he's got a girlfriend he's not giving you any signs at all and then she's confused and she's having drinks at bars and like Bananas staring at him and it's just like what are you doing

I love Nani I can't believe we've never had her on a podcast she had a great college career too in her real world season she is I love Nani I can't believe we've never had her on a podcast or never done anything she also had a great she had a great college career too in her real world season oh my god just hall of fame career

yeah she really has when they have the challenge hall of fame she's got to be in there in her real world season she got involved with the guy

who was probably the craziest roommate they've ever had on that show what was that guy's name Adam oh remember he got kicked out

halfway through he got kicked out of the challenge too. Remember he got kicked out halfway through. I remember he got kicked out of the challenge too. Oh yeah. He got kicked out of the Hard Rock Casino. The Hard Rock Casino. It's like the epicenter of debaucherous disgusting behavior from human beings. The Hard Rock Casino itself like knocked on the door and was like, bro, you're not allowed on these programs. Yeah, you have to leave.

Yeah. So she loved that guy. Nani, you're the best. We love you. We're rooting for you. She also has never won a final. Ten seasons loved that guy. Nani, you're the best. We love you. We're rooting for you. She also has never won a final. Ten seasons, no wins. The other one, I have my third sentimental favorite. You might not be expecting this. Oh, I know this one. I know this one.

Who do you think it is? Nicole the Firefighter. No, I didn't have her. Oh, okay. I do like Nicole the Firefighter. We're going to get to her in a second. By the way, we're blowing away the 20-minute limit for this. What's the preview? It's the preview. We got to really do this.

My third sentimental favorite is Killer Cam. Oh, yeah. Killer Cam just threw a no-hitter her last season. Start to finish, everybody liked her. She was better in challenges and finals and stuff than I think people expected. She was hilarious.

I think maybe the single most likable female competitor in the history of the show. Dating Leroy. Cam and Leroy are an item. Great power couple. Great power couple. First of all, that might be my favorite other than you and your wife, Joey. Maybe my

favorite couple. It's 1A, 1B. I don't know who's 1A, 1B, but Leroy and Killer Kim, they almost had to be together because America needs to be a better, happier place. They had to get together. Yeah, 2020, we needed them. They were trying to fight it and they're like, listen, the pandemic, we've got an entire

species that's depressed right now and inside. Let's just try to add a little happiness. Eventually, we'll have kids. Our kids will change the world. Killer Kim is the best. And this goes back to the Leroy thing. That's a real nice ally for him. Because people like her.

And you need to navigate this whole world. Anyway, those are our sentimental favorites. Threats. These are just threats to win. Newer threats. One L just threats to win, newer threats. One Lolo Jones, we talked about her. Now, she's probably

going to unravel over the course of the season. I don't think she's going to be able to handle it, right, for 19 weeks. Well, she gets, one thing I always take a look at is

who gets screen time in the extended trailer because it's kind of an indication. Like, if you get kicked out in the first or second, yeah, if you get kicked out in the first or second episode,

you're not going to get too much screen time in the trailer. But she appears in the trailer a few times. So I'm hoping, I might just be projecting this on the season, that she stays around for a while. Agree. The second one is

Fessy, who on paper is the best challenge competitor we've ever been given. He checks every single box. He's always in an argument, always in an argument. Great athlete,

phenomenal athlete form probably could have played in the NFL, had some injuries and last year, sure to one. And, you know, we can debate whether they rig some of the final challenge to soup and in as a little bit better. But,

um, Fessy went into that challenge final as a prohibitive favorite. The endurance thing killed him. He completely fell apart endurance-wise, which is a huge part of the challenge if you watch it every year. I don't know if he fixed that, but if he fixed the endurance thing, he has to be the favorite.

He's a threat. He's a threat. I mean, you got to remember, you don't play TJ's final. You don't compete in TJ's final. What do you do, Bill? You run TJ's final. You don't compete in TJ's final. What do you do, Bill? You run TJ's final. You run his final. You run his final. There's at least like six miles of jogging in there that you're going to have to get through.

So hopefully he was on the treadmill during the pandemic. And then the other threat is Survivor Natalie, who we covered. And the only catch with her would be, can she handle the politics? I would harken back to Evelyn, who some people think was the best challenge competitor of all time. What? I personally think no

because she could not handle the politics. She was terrible at it. She would flip out. She would try to play chess, but everybody knew the chess game was happening. She was just really bad at the politics, but great at one-on-one stuff, any sort of head-to-head.

So we'll see with Natalie whether she can do it. She did well on Survivor so maybe she can. Yeah, she did great on Survivor so I think she can. But also like I think they know. They've got the scouting report. Like if I'm a vet and we have our first little like, you know, inner circle meeting and we gotta get Natalie out of here

and she does not get a lot of screen time in the trailer if I remember correctly. Well, because she might be at a redemption house. Who knows? Three sleepers. One is Survivor J. I was really impressed by him. Loved him last season. Shades of Alton.

Going way back to the mid-2000s. Like that wiry, small, unbelievable athlete guy. Alton was like, what was that movie Split when that guy could climb on the ceiling? Do you remember? That was like Alton. It was just like, what is he climbing on? He was just like, he was amazing with the things that he could do.

I was like, that's not even humanly possible. Yeah, I still can't believe Alton, when we talk about his Hall of Fame candidacy, he really mailed in the battle of the seasons. He did. It was too much drama for him. He basically tanked it to get the hell out. It's got to go on your resume. We were doing a

pod and you said that Bill Belichick needed to draft Alton. That's what I was like. That's the highest compliment you can pay. So he's like, Belichick's going to draft him and just he's going to figure out the right place to put him. What an athlete. Anyway, Survivor Jay, I do think he's a little Alton-y. Next one is Casey, who had a really nice run last year.

Look, you mentioned Nicole earlier. Casey and Nicole, it's two apex predators who feel like they can get any woman they want, straight, gay, bisexual. It doesn't matter to them. They're getting them. If they set their sights on you, you're succumbing. It's over.

It's over. Don't fight it. But now we have two of them in the house. The question is, what happens if they look at each other? They're getting them If they set their sights on you You're succumbing It's over It's over Don't fight it But now we have two of them in the house The question is What happens if they look at each other? Oh no That's not going to work

You don't think so? That's not going to work Well I think Nicole I think Nicole has a type And I might be wrong about this But Nicole's also in a relationship I saw that too But that doesn't matter to Nicole

Oh that's That doesn't matter to Nicole I think Nicole Nicole likes a challenge Let's just say that Nicole likes a challenge romantically Nicole looked at Laurel And was like Mount Laurel and was like,

Mount Laurel, I'm climbing it. Yeah, yep. She's not gay or bisexual. I don't care. I don't care. Doesn't matter. I am making this happen. She is not going to be able to resist me.

And they did the same thing with Cara Maria. Cara Maria's like, I love guys. She's like, don't care. Yeah. We'll see. Good for her. Give me three weeks. Great job. So I

think her and Casey, I don't know. It could be a feud. I hope it goes the other way. I hope that they sort of team up. That's my hope. My last sleeper is Big T, who I thought had some moments. I love Big T. I love Big T. Big T, by the way,

not big at all. I don't know how she got the name, but she's got a great personality. She's extremely likable. She's someone that you want around the house. Like, there's a thing where it's like, should we put Big T in elimination? It's like, probably strategically,

but she's just such a good hang and a good vibe that we're living in a house. We're stuck in the middle of Iceland in this, like, you know, fancy barn. I'm keeping Big T around. Old faces. there's seven. We'll start with Corey. Love Corey.

Corey is the James Harden of the challenge. He can put up all the stats he wants, but you know he's not winning the final. It's never happening, and you're never winning the title with him ever. I want it for him so bad. Corey's got kids now and stuff. Corey used to be guaranteed

multiple hookups per season right like guaranteed love triangle Corey he ran the triangle offense in the challenge and then but now he's just like a regular dude Bananas even

the most insulting thing Bananas ever said about anyone on the challenge was when he said something like Corey he's never won the final but if if there was a contest

for who could have the most hookups of the season, he'd win that every year. And it's like, yeah, that's a compliment and an insult. Yeah, it's a compliment sandwich. That's a compliment sandwich. So the thing with Corey is he had the Nelson thing where the two of them together as a tandem leading

to last year, Nelson seeds his spot because he decides to go into the challenge because Corey's got kids. Everyone in the challenge loves overrating somebody having kids at home. Yes. They somehow have more value

than anyone else in the challenge. It's also like, get a job, dude. If you're trying to... TJ's final should not be the way that you provide for your children. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, he's got kids. So I'm going to let them go into the file and run five miles and do a

bunch of puzzles. Like, no dude, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no. I'm sure that Corey has other revenue streams in order to take care of his family. Two daughters. Corey's got now. The best was Tony who had two different kids with two different members of the real world show that he was on.

Same time. Exact same time. Oh God. Tony's got kids at home. on. Same time. Exact same time. Oh, God. Tony's got kids at home. You got to look out for Tony. It's like, Tony's a boy. Can't put him in the elimination. He's got kids at home.

At this point, like 50% of the cast has kids at home. Corey is just missing that extra something to get over the hump. I don't see it. I could see it happening this year. I don't think he's got enough. He checks all the boxes, dude. He checks all the boxes. What are you going with?

Intangibles? Like, what is he missing? He loses a lot he's had a lot of losses take it from a guy who just watched 25 challenges in May and June I was surprised by how kind of not good Corey was uh another one is Devin who they need the villain you have you lost some possible villains and it's going to be depending I don't know if Wes is going to be engaged as a villain. If he's not, the floor is wide open for Devin. It'd just be a huge day. To be the, yeah, yeah. And he's got that pitch.

And I think that they've kind of put him in there for it. You did kind of strike out something that hasn't come across my mind. It's kind of like a congenial cast. I wonder if it's for a reason because of the world we're living in now and especially like the cancel culture and some people have been retroactively canceled on this show. I think for stuff that happened in the way past, there's some faces

that are missing that I think it's from past behavior. I'll leave it at that. So, yeah, they might want a little more congenial challenge. Nelson, also congenial. Corey's buddy. He more congenial challenge. Nelson, also congenial. Corey's buddy. He is in this as well.

Nelson, he's one of those dudes like pound for pound. He's got everything you'd want and something's missing. I'm sure you're going to get to him later, but someone who can stir it up a lot is Josh. Right. I don't even consider him a villain. He's just fucking annoying. He's the most annoying person who's ever been on this show.

Sorry, Josh. It's true. You're just annoying. You've cried during arguments with other men. Like, what's wrong with you? Listen, I cry very easily. You're not a crier. I'm a crier.

Josh, I got your back. There's nothing wrong with crying. Be emotional. Josh is like, he's just so much work for everybody in the show. I just want him to go away immediately. I do not like Josh. I'm just saying I don't like him as a character.

I don't know what he's like as a human being, but as a reality character, I don't like him. He's a pot stirrer, and I think that's necessary, especially with this cast. Pot stirrer, he's crying in it. Next one is Kyle, who somehow made, I think he finished second place last year. It was a classic under the radar.

Love Kyle. I love Kyle so much. Ruined a relationship last year. It was a classic under the radar. Love Kyle. I love Kyle so much. Ruined a relationship last year. Remember that? Yeah. Love Kyle. He's built for reality television. He's got this huge personality.

He's got a great accent, tattoos everywhere. I just think that he is, you need Kyle's in order to have an interesting reality television show. And there's a level of horniness to him that I think you also need. Well, Kyle's available. Yeah.

Kyle's available to, to climb into your bunk bed at three in the morning and have a quick dalliance. Yes. Kyle's is not, let's subtlety is not his love language. Subtlety is not Kyle's love language. Well,

one thing with Kyle and I, we didn't mention this yet. They, they are heavily American this year. They decided, uh, I think they swung too far to the UK last year, and it was just like basically half UK, half America. And I don't know if maybe the ratings were anti that or what was going on,

but Kyle is one of the only UK guys we have on this cast this year. So I enjoy him as well. I like that he's open about his hair plugs and doesn't mind taking shit about them. Two more, Nicole, who was one of the best dads of the last five or six years for this show. She is a sexual inferno.

She's amazing. Inferno, great turn of phrase because she's a firefighter. She's got, her accent is so thick that it's almost like a Disney character. It's got to be fake. Yeah, it's Rhode Island, right? Because Rhode Island is the only... No, Staten Island.

Staten Island. Staten Island. It's like Staten Island crossed with Rhode Island. It's... Well, it's Long Island, Staten Island, Rhode Island, Fantasy Island, Treasure Island, Treasure Island. Every island. She's a good competitor, too.

There was some moments over the years when she had a chance. She had some bad luck a couple times. So you got her. And then the last one is Teresa. And Teresa, a really good combination. Kind of on Nani's corner. Hot. A loose cannon.

Willing to say something really withering to somebody that is like about 10% too mean. And on top of it, like a good competitor, not good enough to kind of carry a team, but solid. She's solid. And I think that her and Nani have

a contentious history, if I remember correctly. Well, because they're on each other's solid. And I think that her and Nani have a contentious history, if I remember correctly. Well, because they're on each other's corner. Yeah, it's a little like, it's a little like, wait a second, I'm the hot Latina around here, you know? Yeah, that they kind of, instead of joining forces, they were forces against each other. Well, maybe, who knows?

They're all mature now. She's got kids too now. Everyone's got kids. Yeah, she went way back with Wes. Oh, whoa, This just crossed my mind. Like, when are we going to get the first second generation? Like, who's going to be the Steph Curry? Oh, wow. Probably one of Darrell's kids, right? No, like, Darrell had kids. Remember Darrell?

You just watched all 25 seasons. Like, Darrell had kids a long time ago. One of his middle names is Awesome. Like, Awesome is going to come on the challenge in like three seasons and take over. I would assume Darrell because he started having kids like mid-late 2000s. So those kids

are probably like three, four years away. Or maybe they do a kids challenge. Last one, we didn't mention it. I have this in the washed category as Anissa.

I can't believe she's still on the challenge. Anissa was in the same real world cast with Kyle Brandt who works for, who works for the does some stuff for the Ringer. He's got like

three kids and he's like, you know, he's like 40. Anissa is it probably should have ended by now. Let me put my producer hat on. Anissa's really good in the interviews and for storytelling. So it's like if you work on the show, you're like,

we need Anissa around because she bridges stories and she's good at interview and she says interesting things. She gets a lot of screen time, but she shows up with no chance of winning the final. None.

Right, not at this point. None. If FanDuel was giving odds on this stuff, it would just be like plus 10,000 for Anissa to win the final. I will say

Anissa in the one-on-ones she has done some work like I I don't know if you've gone to the Wikipedia page that has all the challenge head-to-head stats

Anissa's won a lot of won a lot of saved my spot on the show challengereference.com advanced stats even TJ when TJ throws praise around, you take it seriously.

And TJ's like, yo, Anissa, you don't want to go against her in the challenge. No. In the actual duel, any of that stuff. Now, she's obviously older

and at this point, who knows? But yeah, you do need her for the TV side. I think she's finished as a could-win-the-finals kind of competitor. No. I don't think she ever started as a could win the finals kind of competitor. No,

I don't think she ever started as a could win the finals. She's been on the show 13 times. I don't even know how many finals she's been. She's like big E. Remember big E? It's like that. Well, she got in the bloodline.

She came damn close. Oh, really? Kara Maria won with her, with her cousin, Jamie, who she called cousin, cuz,

cousin. I like everyone's had a soft spot for Cara Maria. Me too. Not here. Remember I bought one of her paintings of a zebra on Etsy for $15. And I had to part with it, sadly. To be fair, you used the word soft spot. I would have just gone with crush

10 years ago. Just TV crush. That's worn off over time. No, but 2011 range, you're like, who's this? It's like when you first meet somebody, you're like, oh, this is amazing. And then you hang out with them all the time. You're just like, oh, That's worn off. That's worn off over time. No, but 2011 range, you were like, who's this? It's like when you first meet somebody, you're like,

oh, this is amazing. And then you hang out with them all the time. You're just like, oh, that's Cara Maria. She's like a sister to me. You know? No, she's had some great moments too.

The season when Abram and her had sex all over the house kind of killed it for me. Do you remember? It was like a reunion where they were just like, yeah, Cara Maria and Abram just openly have sex

all over the place all the time. Yeah, it was like being in college with that roommate who's just having sex constantly. Everyone's just the place all the time. Yeah, it was like being in college with that roommate who's just having sex constantly. Everyone's just grossed out by December. All right, so you and I are going to be recapping every episode on the Ringer Dish podcast

where we are going to confine it to 20 minutes. We're going to blow through it. We'll try to have real pace and we're just going to watch the shows. Boom. And we're going to get screeners from MTV because they're very nice about that. And we're going to tape them

ahead of time. And then when the show comes up right after Unring or Dish, our 20-minute recaps. It's a Jacoby Simmons reunion. Oh, God. I think I might cry. I told you I cry easy. Tell Jalen. Jalen doesn't really care about the past.

He's not a man, but he's like Mark McGuire. He's not here to talk about the past, but tell him, tell him that we're working together. I'll make him watch one. I'm going to make him watch one with me. And then,

and then he'll join one time. That'll be fun. It'll be a good wrinkle. It'll blow his mind. You have no idea. He'll be asleep halfway through the second segment. Jacoby. Great to see you.

I look forward to talking to you after the first show. Good luck and Godspeed. You're, great to see you. I look forward to talking to you after the first show. Good luck in Godspeed. You're my favorite. All right, that's it for the pod. Don't forget, I did a new Rewatchables this week. Broke down the program. I think the greatest

and most flawed college football movie ever with Ryan Russell and Kyle Brandt. That is on the Rewatchables feed. We are probably going to have a new Book of Basketball podcast this week as well. Check out TV Concierge on Spotify. Check out The Mismatch with Kevin O'Connor and Chris Vernon.

I'll be back on this feed on Thursday. See you then. I don't have.