The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Warriors Come Alive, Wemby, Mahomes, the Bucks, and the Uncertain 2024 Election With Logan Murdock and Tara Palmeri

Episode Date: February 13, 2024

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Logan Murdock to discuss his article "The Golden State Warriors Don’t Think This Is the End," Jonathan Kuminga's development, Klay Thompson's new outlook, Draymond Green's return, this season's playoff hopes, and more (2:00). Then Bill hits a couple sports topics, including Kristaps Porzingis, the Milwaukee Bucks, sports ratings, Super Bowl LVIII, Patrick Mahomes comps, and Victor Wembanyama (51:00). Finally Bill is joined by Tara Palmeri to discuss a messy start to the 2024 election cycle (1:10:53). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Logan Murdock and Tara Palmeri Producer: Kyle Crichton The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout theringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, Golden State Warriors, lots of basketball, football thoughts, and even a little bit on the election 2024. That's all next. This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. You know me, I can't go a day without sports. I really can't. And now Monday nights are all about hockey. That's right. There's a new exclusive home for streaming Monday night NHL hockey, And it's on prime all season long. Watch prime Monday night hockey deliver unreal plays. The biggest goals can't miss moments. Matthews, McDavid, Crosby, the NHL's best. They're all on prime prime Monday night hockey. It's on Monday. It's on prime. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet at all. We've been doing pretty well on million dollar picks this year. I love the first month of the season because you have to go into the season thinking, I think Pittsburgh's going to be good.

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show that we did in Washington, DC. We did Forrest Gump, me, Sean Fantasy, Mallory Rubin, and Chris Ryan. This was a fantastic episode and Mallory was out of her mind. So go check that out, please. Check out the ringer.com where I think we're doing our NBA rankings this week, the top 100, because I handed in some votes and I had Kawhi Leonard sixth and I just couldn't figure out how to make them lower than that. He's been that good. So that's coming up later. Please go check that out. We had a lot of good pieces this week, including Logan Murdoch wrote about spending some time with the Warriors. He's going to be on this podcast talking about what he saw on his trip and also what we're both seeing with a team that has kind of secretly become the

most fascinating team in the league for a whole bunch of reasons that we're going to cover. After that, I have a little Michelob Ultra six-pack for you, a bunch of different thoughts on football and basketball and some other stuff. And then last but not least, Tara Palmieri, who hosts the Somebody's Got to Win podcast for us, which is our election 2024 podcast. You can also read her on Puck, but she's going to come on and tell us exactly what the hell is happening with this election. Where are we as we head into mid-February and what can we expect over the next few months? So this is a really good podcast. I don't know what to tell you.

Let's bring in our buddies who just released the new song, Pearl Jam. all right logan murdoch is here from the Ringer. He wrote an excellent piece. He followed the Warriors around at a very fascinating point of their, are we calling it a journey? What are we calling it? What's the word? A journey, an experience. It was very much an experience. I'll go with experience. Journey was cool, but I think that they're going through,

let's say a metamorphosis in real time. Let's go with that. I think that that's going through, let's say, a metamorphosis in real time. Let's go with that. I think that that's where they are right now, where they're trying to figure out what they're going to be long term in the future. And I think the trade deadline was a big step in that direction. And I think that they did what they always do, which is they come together and they come together behind their foursome, which is Steve, Steph, Clay, and Draymond against all odds. Now, I don't know how that's going to figure itself out over the next few months, but that's something that they always do when they're uncomfortable. They go with those guys, and we'll see what happens.

They're playing really well right now, and we'll see where the vibes take them. Yeah, I was on the Wise Guys gambling thread we have over the weekend before the Super Bowl and the Warriors were plus 205 to make the playoffs. And I thought, and they were like minus 270 for the plan, because it's pretty clear they're going to be in the play-in now that Utah went backwards. But I was like, man, I kind of like what I'm watching from this Warriors team. They're in the top five in offense and in defense for, I think, the last 10 or 11 games. And in general, this Draymond situation that seemed like it was going to set them sideways and basically kick them to the curb.

And are they going to trade him? Is he going to be able to play the same way with the same kind of fire? Now, that fire might go over the line at some point over the next 10 games. You could feel it in that Phoenix game. Kind of getting closer and closer to the line. But he's been really good since he came back. And then the Kaminga thing was the other thing, which Draymond mentioned yesterday, where in the last six weeks, Kaminga became the second best player on the team.

So sometimes this stuff happens organically. Sometimes you need a catalyst. And in this case, it was the Draymond suspension. But if they can get Wiggins going, which there's been signs of life from him too, Chris Paul's coming back, Peyton just came back, and they have one of the best seven players in the world.

I went from, I'm completely out to, oh man, is this going to be like the Chiefs? We counted out the Chiefs, they don't have it, they don't have receivers, nobody can catch the ball, you can't win if you can't score 20, and all of a sudden, the Chiefs win the Super Bowl. I don't have it. They don't have receivers. Nobody can catch the ball. You can't win if you can't score 20. And all of a sudden, the Chiefs win the Super Bowl. I don't know if the Warriors can win the Super Bowl,

but at least it seems believable now. The Warriors also can't win the Super Bowl because they don't play football. They play basketball. I don't know if they can win the NBA title, but it doesn't seem inconceivable now. Well, a few things to that, right? Well, the first thing is Draymond Green, who brings all of the lineups together.

He is the straw that stirs the drink when it comes to that. Not only with the young guys that are coming up right now, Kaminga and Wiggins, but he also does it for Steph, right? You've watched Steph and Draymond for a long time where just subtle things like Steph will be in the corner and Draymond will be in the post and will just say, oh, Steph, I'm going to give you the ball and set you a screen. Just the instinctual stuff that they do together, which is a big reason why Steph never wants to play without Draymond. I mean, I was at a few of the games when Draymond wasn't playing and the offense was stagnant. No one was talking on defense. You could really see the void that Draymond is on this team when he's out of the lineup.

There's a shorthand with them, right? The stats back it up. Steph's stats are not the same when Draymond doesn't play. Just period. They're different. Yeah, and also, on the other hand, when he's out, it created this, I would say, I guess, a competition between Wiggins and Kaminga to see who would kind of win that stretch

to see who could play on the floor when Draymond came back. And you kind of saw Kaminga started winning those battles, right, where he was getting these routine 20-point games. And it's one thing, and I always see this with young guys, it's one thing to get a highlight here or there. Me and Raj always talk about not all 20 points are created equal. True. Yeah, there could be the empty 20 points,

and there could be the one that's really dominant 20 points. And I was at the game in uh over the weekend or last week and kaminga had one of those dominant 28 point games right where he also had 10 boards he got six assists those are the type of games we're starting to see out of him um and he is also doing i was talking to steve kerr and it's in the piece where kaminga at the beginning of the season was doing things that rookies do like scoring a lot of points but not doing the other things, right? The biggest thing that Steve wanted

to do, and he says he talks to his coaching staff a lot about with these young guys, you're basically coaching freshmen and sophomores and trying to coach them into being juniors and seniors because everyone is so young. They've had to do that with Kaminga. Like, yeah, you're scoring a lot of points, but we need you to box out.

We need you to play defense on these other guys. And now Kaminga is doing that, and it's just taking this team to another level. And also, when Draymond is back, they have such a good chemistry growing right now, and their relationships come a long way as well. Like, one of Kaminga's biggest advocates right now in the locker room to management is Drayvon Green saying, yo man, keep him on the, keep him on the roster. Keep Kaminga on the roster. We need Kaminga. This is the guy that we need to play alongside because he is a guy. And so what you're seeing right now is you're

seeing all of these things kind of coming together. Also, they had a stretch where they were playing. I know they played Phoenix and that was a big game, but they got the Sixers on the road without Embiid. Brooklyn isn't a very good basketball team. And they had Memphis throughout that stretch as well. So they're getting a little soft spot of the schedule. We'll see what happens. They have the Clippers on Wednesday night. That's going to be the start to see if this is really legit or is it just the fun vibes? Because the Warriors do a great job of this. They play so well during certain stretches that it kind of tricks you, right? I think about one of the other times where I saw this, it was a different circumstance than it, but last home opener against the Lakers two years ago when it was in LA and they were like, oh, you get this

familiar feeling like the Warriors are back and you're starting to get that every once in a while. I know you're smiling right now. You're starting to feel that right now where the Warriors are playing so well when they're on a string and they're playing beautiful basketball. You kind of talk yourself into like, what could this team be in a couple of months? The problem has been they haven't consistently done that over the last two years since they won that title. Now, there was a lot of things that has gone on since then. But the Warriors are in that stage of the season right now where it's like, oh, I could talk myself into them. But they got to have the consistency.

We'll see what they do against the Clippers. We'll see what they do down the line and after the trade deadline. I think they have the Clippers coming up. And they also have the Lakers coming up either before or right before the all-star break or right after. But they're going to start having teams that they're going to have to play to prove what they've done over this last stretch. I watched that Sacramento game, which was two weeks ago, when they lost by one and Barnes just was out of his mind. He had 39 points. The best game he's going to have all year and the Warriors still almost won. And then I was flying to Chicago for the

rewatchable store and I watched the entire Lakers game. It was the perfect time of the fight and I really watched them carefully because I had nothing else to do. You would have loved being at that game in person. Oh, yeah. That was a Bill Simmons special. You would have loved being there in person. I would have loved it.

But that was the first time because I thought the Lakers played pretty well in that game and the Warriors But that was the first time, because I thought the Lakers played pretty well in that game. And the Warriors, that was the first time I didn't feel like they, not only did they not roll over, but that they had some chemistry with some units finally. Because when Chris went out, Chris, all their advanced stats for their five-man units, Chris was in like most of the lineups, right?

But Podzemski has been able to fill some of that. He's been able to fill the stats and the passing and the ball just moves better. The Kaminga thing though, when he called out Kerr and both privately and publicly and for a 21 year old, I mean, you've been in some of these locker rooms

for somebody that young to be like, hey man, here are my thoughts. And it's like, you're on a team that has four titles. I was like, holy shit, they're trading him within the week. I thought it was a rap. I thought it was dumb, but it seems like Kirk kind of patched it up with some of the stuff he talked about in the piece. Like, hey, we don't want you to be LeBron James in 2007. We want you to be, can you be Sean Marion? Can you be Sean Marion in the mid 2000s? Can you be Sean Marion? Can you be Sean Marion in the mid-2000s? Can you be an incredible athlete who rebounds and defends and is around the rim? And sometimes we attack mismatches with you.

And that's kind of who you are, buddy. And for whatever reason, Kaminga's grasp. I mean, when you're averaging 23, 24 points a game for five, six weeks, I know the stats are a little out of whack these days, but that's legitimate. I mean, there was a time when people were like, oh my God, them not taking Franz Wagner over Kaminga is a catastrophe.

Definitely not. It's definitely an argument now. Franz has been really good too, but for what the Warriors need, you could argue they kind of need the Kaminga skill set a little more than the Franz skill set. They need athleticism. They need explosiveness.

They need to be around the rim. And the only other thing I'll say is I always liked how competitive he was. This was a guy who was always one of the best guys in his class. And my friend Dan Cloris, who did the Reggie Miller 30 for 30, he actually was his AU coach for a few years. And he was saying, this guy would always, Kaminga would always rise. There was one game he was talking about where he had, it was Jalen Johnson was coming in. And it was like, Jalen Johnson, oh my God,

he's the best wing in the country. And Kaminga's like, oh really? And then Kaminga just like destroyed him in the AU game. So it was, had it in him. I would rather bet on the guys that have it in them versus the guys where, you know, like somebody like Wiseman who on paper had it in them. I'd rather bet on the guys that have it in them versus the guys where somebody like Wiseman, who on paper had it, but never really

showed it. Kameka at least had flashes. Do you think he's... This is a possible he's the best guy in the franchise three years from now? Where does this go? It depends on who's in the franchise in three years.

If Clay is not in... Not Clay, but if Steph's retired, yeah, for sure. But I think that the biggest thing... Steph's not going anywhere, by the way. No, he's not. I mean, I honestly think he could play eight, nine more years and probably be confident. This year, he's been cold.

Now, he didn't get the all-star starter nod, but there have been some shots this season. You go back to, and I want to get to Minga in a second, but when you go back to that Lakers-Warriors game that you referenced at the top, that was a war, man. In the moment, in the building, you could sense that. And I wonder if when we go back and we look back at this season for the Warriors, whatever they do, I think we're going to look back to that game.

Like, you had everything. You had Steph versus LeBron. You had the Kaminga had a good game. They put Kaminga on LeBron for stretches of time, right? And he was like, finally, finally, I get to play against my peer, LeBron. And the thing to tie it back with Kaminga, like, to that game, the biggest sign of respect was in the post-game interview from LeBron, he referenced Kaminga.

Like, Kaminga has played two years, and they always put him on LeBron. And it went from, who is this guy guarding me, to now like, oh, I like that kid Kaminga, right? Yeah. And I think the other thing about Kaminga is, this is what I think about with rookies. You always want to go to the veterans in the locker room, the trusted veterans in the locker room,

and you kind of get a sense of how the rookies are, right? Now, there's always a combatantness with good young players. And I'm talking about a constructive combatantness with good young players and their veterans, right? Now, on one hand, it could go the other way when you talk about the jordan pool situation but if you talk when you bring it back to kaminga there was always like this edge to him right there was always this thing that it didn't rub completely veteran players the wrong way but they were like they were put on notice that oh this guy is coming this guy is good we have to mold this kid because he always had um you know the supreme

athleticism he always uh could he could shoot it a little bit from three right and um he could also go to the basket and i think well that power game was what made him special like if he had the wrong person on him he could really take that guy to the rim immediately right and i think that now the the warrior's biggest thing is not making him settle for jumpers. And I think that's one of the things that he is. He's just been so much more aggressive this season. And to your point about Steve Kerr, I don't know any other I don't know what other coach misposters a guy like this. I don't think it would have been as public like their relationship with a young guy, but a guy that like if a player comes at you through his

agent or whatever and says it's him or me and gives you the ultimatum. Most coaches would kind of fold under that. And most front offices would kind of fold through that pressure. And Steve was like, OK, I've been I've been an NBA player before. I've done that myself. You know, like younger players, if you talk to a player off the record all the time, they're always mad about their roles. They're always pissed off about they're not getting more. They're not doing these things. And Steve took that into account

and was like, oh, okay. I've done that before. I mean, this is also a guy that was teammates with like Rasheed Wallace and Dennis Rodman and all these guys. He's seen personalities. But he took it as... To say the least. Yeah. I understand where you're coming from.

This is what you need to do. I promise you that you will get the floor and get more take if you do these things. And he's done most of those things. But I don't know how many coaches like only great coaches do those things and kind of have kind of let things fall off their back. Now, Steve has had some hasn't been perfect this season. Right. Talk about what happened in the Sacramento game. There's been some late game stuff. There's been some late game stuff.

Like the in-season tournament game where the Warriors are beating the Kings and then he just takes Moody out. Or keeping Klay for long stretches of time. I'm not saying that Steve Kerr is this perfect coach. A lot of people in the Bay have been complaining about his coaching throughout this season. The last couple minutes of the Bay have been complaining about his coaching throughout the season. The last couple minutes of the game stuff has been pretty uneven with them this year and a little uncharacteristic for them too.

Yeah, yeah. But I will say he has handled the Kaminga stuff as best you can, right? And I think that he's done a good job. He has to figure out the late game stuff, and we'll see how that comes to bear as the season goes forward. I mean, one of the things I – one of the reasons I love watching the Warriors, stuff. And we'll see how that comes to bear as the season goes forward. I mean, one of the things I, one of the reasons I love watching the Warriors, one of the reasons I love talking about him is because we don't get this in the NBA anymore.

We don't get the arc. We don't get the guys staying with the team for 10, 12, 13 years. We don't get the nucleus like this. We don't get to watch somebody like Clay, you know, which has been a mostly sad story this year, where he's just hitting a different phase of his career. The athlete's always the last one to realize it. Now that they know they have a good team, the trade deadline was pretty telling. Teams were coming after Looney.

They had a chance to use the Chris Paul expiring with Kaminga or the Chris Paul expiring with Moaminga or the Chris Paul expiring with Moody or Podzemski. They could have gotten frisky if they wanted to. And they were kind of like, you know what? Kind of like what we have here. The Clay piece is going to be the hardest piece to figure out because everybody's been

talking about it. Everybody loves Clay. And to hear him say a couple of days ago, I've been watching where things ended for Reggie and for Ray Allen. He said in your piece, I've been watching the arc of those shooters, and they can still be impactful at a different point of their career, and that's where I have to think now. I don't think he would have said that two months ago.

Two months ago, he was like, I'm Clay Thompson. I'm one of the great three-point shooters of all time. We're still the Warriors. Even when they had the back-to-backs against Minnesota and they got into it the second game with Minnesota and Doc was telling me oh this is a bad sign that that means they're scared of Minnesota um I I just think they were carrying themselves differently and it seems like a more humbled Clay you spent time with him what was it like um it was interesting because like throughout that uh throughout the trip like i saw i saw every bit of the clay thompson that you're talking about and also like one of the things we love about clay is that he's so

transparent with a lot of his with a lot of his thoughts right like he's a funny guy where you see where you get a quote from you only got three questions with clay but he's gonna give you the best three question answers that you'll ever get but like i got to see him through the brooklyn game where he got benched you know and that was a really really tough um thing for him not only the fact that like he's been a starter and all these things but um you know i was talking to raj about this he does really think he's still clay thompson and you know i see him two days later in Philly after he has a pretty good game. And he talked about just the last couple of days, like he's dealing with this in real time. I have to revamp my thinking. I have to do this. And I have to figure it out how I'm going to do it. Because at the end of the day, like Clay is one of the guys in that locker room. He wants to

be with Steve, Steph, Draymond. And this I don't think he wants to be with steve steph draymond and this i don't think he wants to play for another franchise like i know there was buzz earlier in his career about like is he going to go to the lakers is he going to end up leaving like i and he always said no i don't i want to stay with golden state and i think he seen that kind of slipped from his fingertips and you know he he uh turned down the extension over the summer which had everybody like 80 million for three something like that i really was like higher it was now i was like two for 48 or something like that it was like 20 mil a year he turned that down um and so i think but he he's dealing with all these things in real time while he's dealing with everything but the game and the biggest thing is with clay is

he's kind of always been this vert that this version of himself like the eroding like maybe body and stuff but he has always been this type of version of feast or famine it throughout if you go look at the postseason and you go look at the past regular seasons he's always been that guy that's had like a weird what the hell is Klay doing stretch, right? He had that in the 18-19 season when before the Chicago game, if you go look at his stats before he had that

big game in Chicago, I forget the stat line, but I think he had like 13, 14 threes or whatever. If you look at the beginning of that year, he sucked. He did not play well. And then if you look at his playoff numbers what in between all of those like clay game five game sixes there's some duds in that right but what was easier for them back then is he was the fourth best guy on the team where

you can absorb those feast or famine type games now they really need a consistent second score behind Steph. So Clay is like, yo, man, I got to be that consistent second score. And I think that he had that since he got back from that Achilles and that torn ACL where he's like, okay, I've got to be this and I have to do that. And when it didn't work out, it was really hard for him to pivot throughout this season. And I think you're starting to see him in real time.

Like last night in Utah, he was great. You know, he was really playing within himself. In the beginning of the season, he was not doing that. If you go look at just even he wasn't setting his feet, shooting jumpers. You know, he wasn't. He was really rushing within the offense. So now he has to revamp his thinking and he's doing that in real time. And I'm curious to see how that goes. If he plays like how he did in Salt Lake for the rest of

the season and plays within himself, I mean, he'll be a real weapon with less. If they pull back his minutes and just play him in spurts, I think that could be at his best. And I think that'll be better for the team going forward. Yeah, the Reggie early 2000s analogy. The Ray Allen one, I think that'll be better for the team going forward yeah the Reggie early 2000s analogy um the Ray Allen one I think the Ray Allen early 2010s Miami Heat one was probably like the best case scenario for Clay and he can do that because you know shooting is always the last to leave if he could just stay in the corner and just hit threes like he doesn't have to play outside of himself if he plays the Ray Allen Miami Heat role, that is perfect for everybody.

Or I even think the Reggie Indiana role makes more sense because Reggie could actually win games for them. Ray Allen was always on those Miami teams. LeBron was always the guy on that team. And then kind of Wade was the wildcard guy. Reggie would just, he was kind of still the legend to Reggie.

He couldn't summon it. Maybe like every 10 days he could do it, but then he could do it in a playoff game every once in a while. I think with Clay, what's interesting to me, just like big picture is just having watched the NBA for so long, the circle of life of the NBA, where it's like sometimes you move from point A to point B and then you're at point C and you're like, wait, am I, I'm not, I'm still a point B guy.

I'm, and then you kind of slowly realize your point C, the two things that have changed. He's not the same defensively anymore. And he's just not consistent. Like he used to be as a shooter. There was games and even the Laker game, they kind of left him alone a couple of times, which was like heresy, you know, five years ago. But here's what flips

in a good way. You could see it last night in that Utah game. All I did last night was watch basketball. When he is playing well, it electroshocks that team. They're like so fired up that he's doing well that it's like they're unbeatable. They look like they're like a Hoosiers montage. Fucking Clay's

Draymond's hitting half courtcourt threes right now. That's the effect that Klay has on a team of good Klay. And then Wiggins was plus 31 last night. Now, granted, Utah's moving to a different stage of their career, but I think if Klay can fully embrace, hey, some days I'm not going to finish the last five minutes of the game. We're not going to have the right matchup. I was two for 10 shooting threes. I didn't have it. I'm going going to finish the last five minutes of the game. We're not going to have the right matchup. I was two for 10 shooting threes.

I didn't have it. I'm going to be sitting. Now they've navigated that and they've navigated the Kaminga thing. And then the last piece is Draymond, which we're going to talk about right after the break. Get buckets with your first bet on Fando, America's number one sports book.

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But he's been good. He looks fast. It looks like he's athletically kind of back to where he was a couple years ago. So I don't know what happened on that. And he's got his zest back. And what was interesting watching him the last few weeks was now how does he tap into the I'm a maniac in a good way. Not I'm a maniac in a bad way.

And use that kind of emotional energy that was such a weapon for them. It was one of the reasons they won the 22 finals. He took over that game, the series from an alpha standpoint in these little subtle different ways, and the Celtics just couldn't match it. It feels like that's back, and yet you hear Phoenix talking about it, you hear Nurkic talking about it, or even our friend Eddie Johnson on his radio show. And it's like, the closer he gets to that line, you could always go over it again. And that would submarine this whole season. Yeah, and last season, too.

His actions kind of sunk last season. But, I mean, aside from the antics because that's always going to be there he's always going to toe that line i don't care what he says he just he can't help himself he's always going to toe that toe that line but on the floor he's been really good this season right he's been shooting really well like i haven't seen draymond shoot this well in years uh probably since like 17 16 17, where he's almost a reliable three-point shooter now, right? And he's now engaged. Since he came back, he's in the high 30s for threes,

which was unusual for him. Exactly. And I think that he is... One other thing that's really, that I was surprised about Draymond this season is the young guys are back to loving him. They love him now. Like, wow. You referenced him loves Draymond, you know, Looney loves Draymond Kaminga and Draymond are in a good place, right? Like it's, that's been the biggest thing. And I

was really like when I was in, uh, when I was in the East coast with them, I was really asking some of the young guys, like, I think I asked Looney about this. How do you feel about bringing Draymond back in the fold? And he was like, we love Draymond. We love the fact that he's back in. He didn't hurt us. He didn't beat us. He was defending us. Because in their mind, they're like, yo, he was defending Klay Thompson from Rudy Gobert.

Now, was that, did he go overboard? Yeah, sure. But, like, we fuck with Draymond. And I think that that's been the biggest thing. Like, this locker room has been so much better, even with the losing than last year. It's just been such a 180. And I think everybody is kind of galvanized around Draymond this season, because he is a guy that is a other than the Jordan Poole situation. I will say this and I do got to give I do got to give Draymond credit for this. He has been, by and large, a pretty good bet. Like when I remember when he was, you know, like he would go to Jordan Bell's's like uh you know charity events and stuff like that

he would rent out a suite for the janet jackson show and bring all the little homies through you know like he would do things like that and i think he's back he just has a group of guys now that he just vibes with all the way even like his beginning with jordan pool like they were brothers right it worked out bad but like he was really, at the beginning of it, before it went haywire, he was a really good veteran. And I think that he's becoming that again with this group. They love him. And now, when that happens, I think that that's when the Warriors are at their best. Because no matter what, Draymond's always going to have Klay on his side. He's always going to have Steph on his side. I think at this point, he's always going to have Steve on his side.

So if he could just keep those young guys and help them grow, because they listen to him. He's the one that makes them better. If he could continue to keep his emotions in check and not punch his young homies, I think that the team would be in a great place. If he can just fix not causing bodily harm to the little homies, I think he'll be good.

Well, they built this family over the last 12 years, right? And he's the crazy uncle that everybody loves, but it's like, oh man, Uncle Draymond didn't come home last night. Where is he? Check Life 360. But they still love him. They're still going to defend him. He's part of the family.

The Pazemski part, the fact that they hit that pick and he was able to fill some of the Chris Paul minutes and the veterans obviously love that dude. That's been big. And then, I mean, you saw Chris Paul. He's been traveling with the team

even though he's injured. Remember when people were like, what's this going to look like? Yeah. Chris Paul and Draymond don't like each other. Chris Paul hates the Warriors. It really seems, I'm just watching it from my TV. I've only seen them in person once. It really seems like he's all in on this whole situation.

I thought it was telling that they didn't trade him because they could have either traded him to save a shitload of luxury tax. That was the thing that was shocking with the Warriors not doing anything was the luxury tax is so high. Even if they were able to dump Chris Paul or dump Looney or whatever and just cut 8 million, it would have actually been like 60 million with the tax. But they were like, no, no, we need this guy around. He's huge with our lineups. He's huge as a vet and as a leader. I'm not positive I would have bet on that, Logan. I mean, when Joe Lake was back as against the wall, his favorite phrase is, fuck it, let's do it.

You know? So, and I think that he saw, and he saw, but I think if you look throughout the, you know, been in the locker room throughout most of this season, Chris Paul has been such a great fit for this locker room, right? Like, another guy, that young guy's kind of, that has a respect of the veteran, like, leadership staff, but also, like, pods loves him, right?

Like, he was great for Kaminga to start this season. Yeah. Just, like, getting him in his spots, making sure that he's, you know, that he's doing things off the floor right. And Chris Paul has just been a really good addition. And I remember just even seeing them play together. Like, Chris Paul, you forget that, like, oh, he's one of the smartest players to ever play the game.

And when I watched him in the preseason and even the start of the season, when I went to 6-2 start, there would be these times during the game where you're like, oh, shit. Chris Paul's throwing it to Steph Curry, who's throwing it to Draymond, who's throwing it to Klay. This is beautiful basketball. And I think that if they could get back to that and if Chris Paul could stay healthy, which is a huge question mark. I don't know if he, even with this hand injury, which was, I think he had something like 15 screws put in his hand and put a metal plate in his

hand. It was a really gruesome surgery. But if he could stay healthy, I think they'll be good. But here's another thing though, Bill, and this is the other thing about the Warriors where we talk ourselves and they could do something, but then I look at the standings and i'm like can they beat this team in a seven game series i'm not sure can they beat this team in a seven game series because one of

the things that happened in the 22 um playoffs they they got they they played really well but they got really lucky yeah they got some luck like with the nuggets who they all they could do all they had jamal murray wasn't on it on uh't playing, so all they do was just stack the paint against Jokic, right, and then just play with their wings. Then they play Memphis. Clippers were hurt. Clippers were hurt, and they play Memphis. Memphis is like a young team.

You kind of knew that they were. And then they play the Mavericks, who was just all Luka. You kind of knew that they didn't have the depth required. And then they're on a roll by the time they play your Celtics and then they just, they wanted six. Thanks for bringing that up. Anytime. But I think that when I think about this team,

I don't see that type of run, right? Do they go on the other side of the bracket with Denver? Does that, then they might play against OKC or run, right? Do they go on the other side of the bracket with Denver? Then they might play against OKC or something, right? I think that OKC could beat them in a seven-game series. I don't know. That's a nice matchup, though. I'm looking at their five-man lineups right now as you were talking.

That Curry-Green-Wiggins-Kaminga- Podzemski lineup, they're like plus 38.9 net rating. And then the Chris Paul-Curry- Thompson-Wiggins-Looney lineup, they're like plus 38.9 net rating. And then the Chris Paul, Curry, Thompson, Wiggins, Looney lineup, that was also really good. That was 18.2. And then Curry, Thompson, Green, Wiggins, Kaminga, that's plus 16.9. So the thing I like is that they have some five-man units that actually have succeeded in real ways.

I thought about this before I got on here. Just teams that kind of figure it out at the right time, but also in an older sense. Are they the... Could the Warriors be the 2010 Phoenix Suns?

Could they be the 2010 Suns? Could they be the 22 Warriors? Yeah, that was a different... But that was a little different. Because you could argue this team's more talented than the 22 Warriors. Maybe Steph was slightly better two years ago yeah that was a different but that was that was a little different because you could argue this team's more talented than the 22 warriors maybe steph was slightly better two years ago and clay was obviously better but from the rest of the guys if wiggins can come back it would be the

invert because remember the the 22 warriors they went on an 18 and 2 start and kind of coasted the rest of the way this would be the inverse of that where they just go on a run to end it. They would be like your 22 Celtics. Right. The slow starters. Right now they're 10. They're a game behind the Lakers for nine. Dallas, they're two behind in the lost column, but Dallas I think is going to take off

a little bit because of those trades. You could already see with Gafford. Gafford really helped them. I'm wondering where OKC was on Gafford. Joe House was saying Gafford. They look great with Gafford, yeah. Gafford really helped them. And I'm wondering where OKC was on Gafford. Joe House was saying Gafford is our best player all year on the Wizards because he was actually watching the Wizards games. But it looks like that trade's going to help them.

The Kings are 30-22, so that's only three back. I don't trust the Kings, though. Don't trust the Kings? I do not trust them. I don't trust the Suns. The Suns are 31-22, but they've gotten a full season out of Nurkic, who hasn't played 57 games since 2018. I've said this a lot about the Suns, though. I've said this a lot about the Suns.

I am dubious on the Suns for the simple fact that they got to go through Denver. And if Nurkic gets into foul trouble, which he will, you're in a position where you got to put Kevin Durant on Jokic. We saw that last year. That's not going to work out well. And they just don't have frontcourt depth. That's always been the Suns' MO. They just don't have frontcourt depth, and it kills them every time. That's why I don't see the Suns being good.

I didn't like the Royce O'Neal either. I didn't think that was the answer. I'm just thinking about, all right, let's say the Warriors can sneak into one of the eight seeds. Let's bounce Sacramento and let's bounce Phoenix or New Orleans or maybe even the Lakers because we know the Warriors can play with them.

We've already seen them go toe-to-toe with OKC and that just becomes a small ball festival, which is kind of good for both sides. That would be a fun-ass series. That would be a fun-ass series. That would be a fun-ass series. Clippers, same thing. Small ball festival, winnable. Rivalry right there.

A little rivalry. Denver with Jokic. You know, like you saw Denver last night against Milwaukee. Sometimes their young guys just don't show up. Sometimes their three-point shooting just doesn't show up. See, I don't want to fall for the banana in the tailpipe with Denver because they always do this. I fell for that last year in the regular season.

Okay, you're making a case, but I'm just like, I don't know. I think the Warriors could throw some punches. Minnesota is the one team I look at and I'm like, oh man, that's too much size. I don't see it. Minnesota would have to be one of those series where Minnesota's up six out of the seven games with two minutes left,

and they blow all of them, one of those type of things. This is my argument with Minnesota, against Minnesota, if I were to have an argument against Minnesota, is we saw this last year, how important coaching is, head coaching is, in the postseason. And I know that's something that people just are like, oh, well, duh. But you look at the Miami Heat. Sorry, I'm bringing up your Celtics again. But the team, if you go look at their run, just supposed to just continuously out-coach just the opposing team, right?

He out-coached Missoula. He out-coached Bud. He out-coached all these guys to get to this point. I don't know if Chris Finch is going to, like, this is a test for Chris Finch. Will he get outcoached? And will it be one of those things where like, how the hell did Minnesota lose that series? There's some knucklehead factor with them.

With Towns, Edwards has never been there before. Gobert, who knows down the stretch. It just has the feeling of, oh, I could see that team blowing a totally winnable round two series, round one series. New Orleans has a lot of size too, but they have the same knucklehead there. I mean,

they, they blow every close game. So also they went a lot of, they went a lot of games against bad teams. Like every time New Orleans is in front of, is there for the show, like this is why the end season tournament was such a big deal for them. I think because for them to be on the biggest stage and lay an egg in the way that they did it says a lot about their basketball team right now right like

where they um they have to show up in these moments consistently and i don't know how many dudes i like brandon ingram a lot but like zion and this is something that me and me and raj have talked about throughout the pod is zion because of what happened to start his career, hasn't had the playoff experiences of a Luca, right? He's still coming in after all these years, like his first time. And you know what, young guys and young talented guys, you have to go through your lumps at a very young age. Tatum's going through that right now. And I don't know if Zion has that in him yet, right? To where he can just be like, I've gone through the fire before. I'm going to kick your ass.

I don't think that he's there yet. And he has to be there. He's the number one guy. So I'm really dubious on New Orleans too. It's a lot of rock, paper, scissors stuff going on. Like last time, Minnesota plays the Clippers. And their wings just played really well against the Clippers' wings. And the Clippers had trouble. wings just played really well against the Clippers' wings. And the Clippers had trouble.

Hart didn't really show up. All of a sudden, Minnesota's up 15 and Minnesota's flying. Hart just came back from the Super Bowl. He just got back from Vegas. Yeah, he looked like it. But there's certain teams where Minnesota, if it's like your wings are your best players,

that's great for Minnesota because they have really good defenders. They can throw people. The Warriors could get a little funky with them. So I don't know, man. We'll know more, I think, after Wednesday's game because they're playing the Clippers. That's going to be Clippers coming off a loss.

There's a really kind of secretly good rivalry with those two teams for the last 12 years. Through different iterations, too. Yeah, it doesn't seem to even seem to matter. They have, like, the Clippers right now have Russell West also right now they have like the clippers right now have russell westbrook they have james harden they have kawaii leonard all players that have played in different iterations of the career against the warriors right and there's a there's a built-up like also in the beta there's a built-up fuck you towards the clippers and then you add

those three guys it could be really compelling and then also ty Ty Lue, who coached against him in the finals. Yeah, and then you have Curry Quett. That was the team that knocked the Warriors out in seven when the Warriors were making their baby. Mark Jackson's last game when he dressed in all black. And Kawhi randomly just beat them in a finals, right? The random Toronto Raptors series. And ended like an iteration of the Warriors dynasty.

There's a lot of storylines. Yeah, I would probably at gunpoint right now, if I had to pick two teams to drop out so we could get eight playoff teams, Kings definitely would be one of them. Yeah. That second one's tough.

Yeah, sorry Sacramento. The second one's tough. You could talk me into New Orleans, Phoenix, and the Lakers, and then the Warriors would be the other one. tough you could talk me into New Orleans Phoenix and the Lakers and then the Warriors would be the other one so we're gonna find out we gotta I wanna end with Curry quick

cause um if there is some 2023 Chiefs long shot potential with them it would have to be the Mahomes-Curry parallels

which has been have been weirdly you know well they've invited it though because like um like Pat Mahomes they asked him a question who are you like as a player parallels which has been have been weirdly you know well they've invited it though because like um like pat mahomes they asked him a question who are you like as a player he's like i'm steph right yeah these guys also like you know how we talk about like with uh certain players that are

starting to get like these cult like these cult fan bases among other among other athletes right kobe's a big example of that right now but But I think Steph's starting to get that, like, cult athlete to athlete. Like, I like him, right? Giannis loves him. These Pat Mahomes across sports. It's interesting the kind of place he's starting to go as an athlete right now. You know what my explanation for that would be?

Other than the fact that he's a one-on-one and there's just nobody like him. One of the most humble superstars we've had in an era where in any sport, superstars just aren't humble in the same way like they once were. There's a loyalty aspect to him that I think people appreciate. And you never really hear from him. And he said that in your piece where he said, yeah, it just because you never heard that I was talking about what can we do to fix this?

Doesn't mean I wasn't involved. I just don't play the game like that. I don't think that's my job as a leader. I'm paraphrasing, but he doesn't feel like it's not my job as a leader to be out there in the front and poking the team I work for and putting my teammates in trade rumors. He wants no part of that. And I think, I don't know, I think other athletes appreciate that. He just seems authentic.

Yeah. He is one of one in that regard. I mean, there is part of you that thinks like, maybe a little subtweet, maybe something. Like, just one of those things. You could do a little one. He's not going to do it. He's never doing it.

He's not. I mean, the one thing that it seemed a bit forced. Remember when he said something along the lines. I mean, this is the funny thing about Steph. And, like, he tries to get these, like, one-liners off, and sometimes they don't hit. When he said doing the same thing a lot is the cause for insanity, he said that he did put a little pressure on them this season, I guess. But I think that he's just one of those guys. I think at this point he is very certain in himself.

He knows where he's going to be for the rest of his career. I talked to him a couple of years ago. Well, no, we don't know that because Seth's on Charlotte. This is where it begins. Seth is in Charlotte. This is the road now. The Curry-Charlotte reunion. New owners.

It's happening. Don't give me that BS. I'm trying to give you a great anecdote, okay? So two years ago, the Warriors were in Dallas. They happened to be in town for Dirk's jersey retirement. And I talked to Steph on the phone after that game because I was doing a piece on him for the ringer. And he was really taken aback by that, right?

Like one guy that plays for one organization and that's a rarefied thing right there's like what duncan dirk kobe magic uh well i mean in the last 25 years it's it's three guys that's it right and so that really made an impression on him uh that dirt uh statue and i think that's something that he really wants to do i think i don't think that's any, I don't think that he's going anywhere. Like, I don't care what happens. I think that he's going to ride off into the sunset because one thing that I've gotten over the last, like,

week in reporting out this piece is, I think they would, this four-man group, they would rather win a title together than, like, winning a fractured version of it. Like, if it meant, like, they didn't win a title, but they got to play the rest of their careers, I'm talking about Steph, Clay, Draymond, Steve, they got to play the rest of their careers together.

I think they would take that. I mean, you know, just maybe like have a Steve Nash run in 2010 or maybe they get another, maybe they get another ring. I don't think so. But like, I think they would rather stay together and not win a title than win a title. And, oh, I had to trade Draymond. Oh, we had to trade Klay.

Oh, Steve, we had to get rid of the coach. I think that they would rather stay together than break this thing apart. So if you offered Steph like 75% chance if you made one trade, you could win another title. 25% chance you could win a title with the guys you have. He would say, I'm in for the 25%. I mean, I think he's been taking the 25% over the last few years. There's been plenty of times where people have said about Draymond, hey, do you want to trade Draymond?

He's like, nope. He's staying here. You want to get rid of this core guy? Nope. He's staying here. Most of the biggest reason why Draymond is here, and I've said this time and time again on the podcast, the biggest reason why Draymond Green is a go-to state warrior

is Steph Curry, bar none. And I think that Steph wants to win with the fellas that he came in with. And I think that we're going to start to see that bear fruit over the next few years. Well, he's averaging five threes a game this year, which is, let me see. He's done that 2016, 2019, 2021,

and this year. Wait, one of those years was an MVP year, which was 2016, right? 2021. If you go back and look at 2020, 2021 season, Steph Curry, amazing. Yeah. Like MVP candidate.

19, that was a, that was a, that was, he was just good because he just was good. But those two years, that was the last Durant year. But if you look at those, those years, those are pretty good Steph Curry years. You know, it's pretty good. All-timers. He's still my favorite

non-Southwark. Jokic has made a run in it, but I still, I still love Curry the most out of all the non-Seltziks. I haven't forgiven him for game four of 2022. You shouldn't, though. It was greatness. I'm just glad I wasn't there. Wait, last question.

Can you tell me the effect of the death of the coach had on the team? What was your feeling for that with the reporting? I saw Steve Kerr flew to belgrade and and just like what why did this guy resonate with him so much um coach decky um yeah he resonated really well because one he's just a cool ass he was a cool ass dude right like he just was one of those guys that you could go get a beer with um you could go um he was really close with looney he came into um to uh

to fix uh wiseman's game but it just didn't work out that way and he started gravitating towards looney and he was just a beloved figure in all ways for that team you know uh ron adams swears by decky was really hurt by the fact that um um, you know, Deku passed and he was just one of those guys that was just in the locker room was always telling jokes. He was always, um, just a fun loving person. And not only in the Warriors locker room,

I remember the last time the nuggets came and Yoko was doing his pregame warmup. That was Yoko. Yeah. And Yoko was doing a pregame warmup and he's almost to the, uh, the visitors. uh the visitors now the visitors um tunnel is across diagonally from the warriors home bench and so yokich is walking you know with these stars when these stars just in the advent of social media when these stars walk to

the the tunnel there's always a crowd of people, whether it's social people, whether it's just people, there's always a crowd, right? And Jokic gets to the, almost to the tunnel, gets a whiff at Deki and goes, hey man, call me, call me, right? And like, he stops everything. And Deki's like, I got you, man. It's all good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Call me. And so then, you know, he goes into the tunnel. But it was one of those things that was really striking because every time you saw one of these European players, European big

men come into Chase Center, they would always make a point to go sit down and chill with Decky. And that kind of just like he was just so beloved in the locker room, but he was so beloved not only in the Warriors locker room, but in the league and around the basketball world. And I think that's why, you know, you saw, you know, such an outpouring of support.

Like, not only did Steve go to, Steve Kerr go to Europe and, you know, go to that funeral. Like, Rick Celebrini went there, right? Like, the head trainer went out there. Ron Adams went out there. There were a lot of guys that you know loved him in that organization and i remember even just like the uh the game after he passed it was i went to the game i forget who they're playing it's really a blur but it was almost like

a wake before that game they had his i watched that whole thing that was really emotional it was really emotional i think it was like it was you know it was i think they gave him 20 minute pre-game thing, and it was already a TNT game. That was a long night, but it was really touching and also really sad. It was really emotional, but they loved him. He is always going to be tied to that organization in so many different ways, but he was loved.

Coach Decker was loved by that organization. All right, Logan Murdoch, we can read it at TheRinger.com. We can listen to you on the real ones on The Ringer NBA Show with Roger Bell and then Howard motherfucking Beck. Howard motherfucking Beck on Mondays.

Yes, yes. Good to see you. Good to see you, man. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache,

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Sunnybrook was the only hospital in Canada who could provide Andy with something special. Three neurosurgeons, two scientists, one movement disorders coordinator, 58 answered questions, two focused ultrasound procedures, one specially developed helmet, thousands of high-intensity focused ultrasound waves, zero incisions. And that very same day, two steady hands. From innovation to action, Sunnybrook is special. All right, now it's time for a very special part of today's episode. Brought to you by Michelob Ultra, our friends, who are the official beer sponsor of my favorite league, the NBA. Win or lose, you're bound to enjoy the ride with a good beer in hand. And Michelob Ultra, it's good beer. It's crisp, It's light. It's refreshing. It's only 95 calories. So order yourself an ultra six pack while we unpack six major things going on in basketball

and in some of the other sports too. I want to lead with somebody you wouldn't expect. Chris Stapp's Porzingis. He's like, oh, all right. Yeah, we did. You know, he bounced around. He's been in New York. He was in Dallas. He was in Washington. Boston's his fourth team. He's 28 years old. Yet the Celtics fans are talking about him like he's the cheat code of this team.

He's the superpower of this team. And I think from afar, people haven't watched him in Washington or even haven't watched him that much in the Celtics this year. It's like, oh, give me a break. He's going to get hurt, whatever. I don't think people understand how good Porzingis has been, not just this year, but really for the 2020s. His per 36 numbers, just for this decade, the 2020s, he's averaging 24 and 10, 47% shooting, two blocks a game. If you look at all the guys this decade

who have averaged 24 and 9, right, per 36. It's Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Davis, Towns, and Porzingis. It's a pretty good group of players, right? So now we have all these advanced metrics you can look at too, right? We can study his post-ups. Now his post-ups, it's a little bit of a cheat code here because one of the things the Celtics love to do, if you guard Porzingis with a small, they're just like, no, you're not doing that. And they'll post them up at the foul line. They'll figure out some way to abuse the guy. And it's very hard to put either your worst guy

or your smallest guy on Porzingis. With that said, he's shooting 69% on post-ups this year. They're averaging per 100 possessions, 1.42 points per 100, which compared to Giannis, he's at 1.03 on post-ups. Jokic is 1.15 and Bede's 1.17. Shengun, the post-up master, he's 1.02. So Porzingis is killing those guys. As a pick and roll man, which anyone who watches the Celtics team, we don't understand why they don't run pick and rolls with White and Porzingis down the stretch because it's effectively unstoppable. And even in the Miami game on Sunday, they didn't do it. As a pick and roll guy, he's shooting 55%,

1.31 points per 100 processions. Davis is 1.13 and Bede is 1.08. And Jokic, the best player in the league, the master at this, is 1.29. So they're, the best player in the league, the master at this is 1.29. So they're doing slightly better with Porzingis and pick and rolls than Denver is doing with Jokic, who is the best player in the league. He's played 10 playoff games total. There's a very good chance he could get hurt at some point.

Every Celtics fan has their finger crossed. But when you look at the numbers and you look at the body of work, this isn't fluky. He is this good offensively and he's been an amazing team karma guy too. So as we open the six pack here, I just want to point at Porzingis. He's not going to make the all-star team probably had a case to be at least a bubble guy. Uh,

but he's the super, the super cheat code of this Celtics season. All right. Speaking of cheat codes, Giannis, he's my, my second thing I want to talk about. I don't know if you saw the Bucs played Denver last night, but the Bucs looked really good. The chemistry looked good. From an eye test standpoint,

they're just defensively, they just seem to finally all seem to understand what the other person's doing. All the stuff the Bucs fans were complaining about, my friend Ben Thompson, where they were just like, our team's a mess. We're completely disheveled. We cannot figure out our defensive ending at all. What happened to us? Combined with the unhappiness that I saw in person in a couple games that people have been talking about, it feels like that cloud has lifted. obviously Doc Rivers took over who he left the podcast and he left the SPN and he went back to his coaching lifestyle. I was hurt. I'm an only child. I don't like to be abandoned, but I also want him to do well as long as he's not playing the Celtics in a playoff series. And there were signs of life even during the one through five, when they went one and five in the first six. I know I did a joke about the Bucks panic tweet, but that's been a running joke for me on Twitter.

I wanted to see last night because last night was a good test for them. What are they going to do against Denver? How are they going to handle the pick and roll with Jokic and Murray? How are they going to jump out on shooters? What's the pace of the game going to be like? And they answered every question.

I mean, going into the weekend, they were plus 160 to win their division. Cleveland was the heavy favorite. Cleveland's coming off that big win streak where they, if you look closely, they beat Brooklyn twice, Washington three times, San Antonio twice.

They went 2-1 against the Bucs right as the Bucs were imploding. And everybody's like, oh, Cleveland's the favorite in that division. I still think the Bucs should be the favorite. Right now, the Bucs are plus 115. And by the way, if you parlay that with Dallas's division odds, that gets over four to one. Just going to throw that out. The bigger one to me is Giannis and his MVP odds. Giannis is plus 650. I'm not allowed to bet on this word. But if they end up being the two seed, if they can rally

here, which I think is possible, and they have a better record than anyone in the West. Because right now it looks like the top two teams in the East, maybe even the top three could have better records than anybody in the West. Well, Giannis, he's played 52 games already. He's averaging a 31, 11, and six, two and a half stocks a game, 61% field goal. He's plus 8.1 net rating when he's on off court. Got his coach fired. I mean, he at least had a hand in it, which if you're watching just the difference of how they looked last night versus how they looked the rest of the season, maybe he had some good ideas there. If he had ideas, I'm not accusing him, but come on. Uh, he also plays the hardest of anyone in

the league. He really does. If they, now they gave out the stupid clutch award, but they should really give out the who played the hardest this year award because I think Giannis would win. As I joked about last week in the trade value, he's a borderline sociopath with these games. So you add all this together, they're 35 and 19, they're fourth in offense, 17 in defense, and that should probably get better for net rating. After the break, they play at Minnesota and at Philly. And those would be the two big questions because I want to see how they defend Anthony Edwards. I still am not sure they can defend Winks. I like the Beverly trade.

You can feel it last night, him and Bobby Portis together. It's just the right kind of crazy coming off the bench, little irrational confidence, a little crazy, a little feisty. This team needed an identity change and it feels like they're a little closer to where they were a couple of years ago. So watch out for the Bucs would be my second big point. All right, third. So this is a quick one, but have you noticed how with sports ratings, everybody's sports ratings are up on TV? Like we just had the Super Bowl came out. It was the most watched Super Bowl ever.

123 million. It's like, man, that seems weird because I thought people under 25 were on TikTok and on YouTube and on Snapchat and on all the streaming services. You have so many more TV choices. Why would the ratings go up? And then you see ESPN, they do at the end of the year or the end of the month, be like, highest ratings ever for Get Up and all these different shows. Same for Fox. All their shows are up. Everybody's ratings are basically up except for the NBA and whoever replaced the 12 p.m. Sports Center. If your ratings don't go up, it's probably a bad sign. But I couldn't figure out

why are the ratings up? So I asked John Arand, who covers sports stuff, used to be at Sports Business Journal, now he's at Puck. I was like, what's going on here? This is the very short thumbnail version. I'm sure there's a better, longer, deeper dive version of this. He should write it. John, write this for Puck. They're measuring these at-home ratings, which has been this new trend this decade. And they've expanded them. And they watching in a bar, if you're watching in an airport, if you're watching at somebody's house. They basically changed the mechanics of it. So John estimated the ratings are like 10% to 20% higher. So there's one thing. The second thing is the Super Bowl was on CBS, and it was on Paramount Plus and it was on Nickelodeon.

Monday Night Football was on ESPN1 and 2. You get to add those together. And it was on ABC sometimes and it was on ESPN Plus. So they get to add all these ratings together. Of course the ratings are up for everything. If we had in the playoffs, I'm sorry, in the NBA,

28-footers are now worth five points. And everybody in the playoffs, it's like, I'm sorry, in the NBA, 28 footers are now worth five points. And everybody in the NBA, their points went up like 10% because of these five pointers. And then the Milwaukee Bucks did a press release. Our points per game are up 12%. It's the most points we've ever scored. It's like,

yeah, because you're counting five pointers now. But whatever's going on with this athome thing seems to be the five pointer of this whole whatever. But if I'm the NBA, I'm like, man, we have all these different ways to boost the ratings and our ratings aren't even going that well. I would be very concerned. I would be trying to get that media red steel done as fast as I possibly could. Been talking about the Super Bowl OT decision that Shanahan had. Sal and I were both in the camp when we did the podcast on Sunday night of,

I can't believe they took the ball. They should have gone second. There's been a lot of stuff written about this since. I've been on some arguments on text. ESPN's Brian Burke, who crunches those numbers, like, here's this scenario, here's that scenario. He said it was basically 50.2% to 50.3% odds to get the ball first. So basically nothing. That's a coin flip. Shanahan was saying they wanted it because if you get the ball third, meaning if the two teams match scores, you get the ball third, meaning if the two teams match scores, you get the ball third, now you have the advantage.

That makes sense on paper. Here's the case for going second. And I didn't fully realize this in my head for a couple days as I was arguing with people. So if you go second, you can get a stop or a turnover right on the other team's first drive

and get the ball, now you have a chance to win the game. That's one thing. You can match a field goal. You can match a TD. a turnover on the other team's first drive and get the ball, and I have a chance to win the game. That's one thing. You can match a field goal. You can match a TD. That's the second thing. You can score a touchdown and go for a two-point to just try to win it, which the Chiefs, if you heard anything of them talking heading into that game, they had all these two-point

plays ready to go just in case there was an overtime because if they went second, which they wanted to, they're going to go for the win when they had the ball. But there's like a mental aspect to this too. And the best way I can describe it is this. You're playing blackjack. You could basically mirror

what the dealer does, right? You could just do every single thing like the dealer does. You can just keep hitting until you get to 17. You can stop it at 17. But for some reason, the blackjack wins more than the person playing. Well, why is that? Two reasons. One, the person playing is going first, so they have a chance to screw up or get too aggressive or whatever. And the dealer can basically win by doing nothing. And then second,

there's the psychological advantage. When you're going first, you don't know what the dealer has. So you're just trying to, well, I got to be aggressive. He's showing a nine. And then you're kind of falling out of maybe the right way to play a hand. Going second in this is you're the blackjack dealer. No matter what happens, you're kind of psyching out the other team. And even like the Niners not going for it on fourth and four and settling for the field goal, you could argue like if they had to do that over again, would they have gone for it on fourth and four there? Knowing that Mahomes was waiting, knowing the inevitability of, oh my God, we just gave Patrick Mahomes a ball and he'd field goal of, oh my God, we just gave Patrick Mahomes a ball

and he'd field goal ties, touchdown wins. What did we just do? I think going second makes you the blackjack dealer. That's my thought. Speaking of Mahomes, there's been a lot of Brady Mahomes stuff. I got to defend my guy Brady for a split second here. Brady went to 10 Super Bowls and he won seven.

Brady won 19 of 22 division titles. Brady went 35 and 13 in the playoffs and had 13 first round buys, which means if you're just saying playoff round advancements, he advanced 48 times. I really want to see somebody beat that in my lifetime. Brady beat Mahomes twice in the playoffs

in 2018 in the Super Bowl. And Mahomes is 15-3 in the playoffs. He's got six to six division titles, four first round buys. So he's 19 advances. So he's 29 advances behind Brady. He's on a great pace. Kudos to Patrick Mahomes. But Tom Brady, the GOAT thing shouldn't be in this play.

Mahomes is on Brady's corner and that's it. Brady from 2014 to 2020, which is the be in this play. Mahomes is on Brady's corner and that's it. Brady from 2014 to 2020, which is the same timeframe right now as Mahomes, he won four Super Bowls, three Super Bowl MVPs, one MVP and beat Mahomes twice. And this was in the last part of his career. So everybody settle the fuck down. What I do think is in play is best decade to start a career. And this is something Justin is best decade to start a career. And this is something Justin Termini texted me about this yesterday. I've always had this theory with Larry Bird.

His first nine years, I think, is the greatest start to a career in the history of the NBA. His first nine years, three titles, five finals, three MVPs, two finals MVPs. In the MVP voting, his first nine years, including his rookie year, fourth, second, second, second, first, first, first, third, second. There was literally never a point after his rookie year when he wasn't one of the three best players in the league. And his rookie year was the fourth best player in the league.

He also should have won the 1981 MVP, which I covered in my book. Him and Dr. J were dead even last game of the season, which basically if we covered the NBA back then like we do now, we would have said whoever wins this wins the MVP. Well, Boston blew out Philly.

So Doc, I think people love Doc and they just want to give him one. Bird was 25, 10, and 6 over that nine years. And 50%, 38%, 88%. And it's just like, you can't do better than that for your first nine years as a basketball player. Wayne Gretzky, I think we count the WHA year. We have to, but then he won eight straight MVPs, seems irrelevant. Four cups, six finals. He won nine of 10 MVPs his first 10 years in the NHL. eight straight scoring titles, broke every record.

So he's got to be in the mix. Tiger Woods, PGA player of the year, eight times from 97 to 07, plus he won in 09. He was the money winner nine times from 97 to 09, and he won 14 majors from 97 to 2008. And then Montana,

who I forgot didn't start for two years, so it's a little tougher for him. But from 81 to 89, four Super Bowls, 14-4 in the playoffs, and he won one MVP. And then last but not least, the GOAT, Bill Russell, who came into the league, won a title his first year and won 11 of 13, won a bunch of MVPs, was the dominant player of an entire generation, also coached the team for the last two titles. So I'm still going to say Bill Russell, best start to a career ever because the start, middle, and end was the best. But Mahomes has it. What's happening with Mahomes, you throw away his rookie year because he didn't play,

but now he's in this, you know, it's two more years like this. He's at least in the conversation now for one of the best starts to a career in any team sport. And let's say he wins two more Super Bowls. He might be like the second or third person mentioned. So that was more interesting to me. I'm not ready to have the Brady discussion yet.

He's certainly on pace, but let's say it happened for 50 more years. Let's say you have a 2014 to 2020 version of the third part of your career like Tom Brady did. Last but not least, this is a quickie, but Victor Wambanyama, I try not to watch the Spurs. They make me so mad. It makes me so mad they didn't get a point card for him.

Here's the thing. He's hitting every checkpoint we would have wanted from him, right? If you look at just the last, his 2024 stats, just January and February, he's averaging a 23 and 10, 3.3 blocks a game, 50% shooting. He's a good free throw shooter already, which I wasn't expecting. He's 83% from the line during that stretch. He can hit threes. That'll get better.

The worst part of his game, the pull-up jumper stuff, he still hasn't really figured out how to punish people the way somebody like Porzingis does on Boston when there's a smaller person. He's a baby. He's 20 years old. I think he's a legitimate

Defensive player of the year candidate. Michael Pena threw this out on Twitter yesterday. Kevin O'Connor agreed. I would also like to agree. I don't know if he should win, but I think he's now in the conversation. And then you think 22 and under guys all time who averaged 20 and 10 with three blocks a game. That list looks like 1974, Bob McNew, 93, Shaq, 93 and 94, Alonzo Mourning, and 86, Hakeem, and probably 1970, Kareem, but we didn't keep blocks by them. The point is he's hitting all the check marks. And you think back, LeBron is a rookie. I remember writing a rookie column about him for ESPN, the magazine, halfway in. I'm like, LeBron's

delivering the goods, man. This is great. I love what I'm seeing. He's hitting the checkpoints. MJ is a rookie. He's a little bit older. He's 22, but he averaged 28 in his game as a rookie. And we knew almost instantaneously this guy has it. I think people felt that way about Wilt, who was, I think, 23 when he came to the league. Shaq's first year, I felt that way.

Tim Duncan, who had four years in college, same thing. But with Wim Benyama, if you were like, all right, he's not going to have a point guard and his team's going to suck. Are we still going to feel good about this heading into the all-star break? I feel fantastic. And I might actually start watching the Spurs even though they infuriate me with the team they put around him. But where does this go? You think this is the floor. The floor for him are the last six weeks, 23 and 10, 3.3 blocks a game. So where does this go? Year four, is it 30 and 15 with five blocks a game? It's almost like a house without a ceiling. That's Victor Wimonyama. So that's it.

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Ends June 12th, 2024. Multiple to U.S. residents. 21 and up. Begins October 19th, 2023. Ends June 12th, 2024. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at MichelobUltra.com slash rules for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. Message and data rates may apply. Void. We're a prep. All right. I'd been waiting for the perfect week to have Tara Paul Marion, who hosts Somebody's Gotta Win, a podcast on the Ringer podcast network about the election. And it feels like this was the week. Super Bowl's over. Biden skips doing the Super Bowl interview for reasons that remain unclear. The age thing has become a massive story. You did a podcast about Kamala this week about what's going on with her. Why hasn't she resonated? Meanwhile, nobody's happy on the Trump side. This is one of the reasons we created this podcast where we're like, what is 2024 going to

look like when literally nobody's happy with their candidates? It's even worse than when we started talking about this, what, eight, nine months ago, right? Yeah, exactly. I mean, there was at least a shred of hope that someone would come through in the Republican primary process and actually be a real challenger to Trump when we started talking about this. Also, we thought maybe there might be cracks in the Democratic coalition veneer that maybe someone would come through that was willing to challenge Joe Biden. But it turns out that the party establishment was strong enough to keep everyone in line and they remain to be in line. No one really even dares to come out against

him. Instead, you've just heard a chorus of, oh, Robert Herr's a Republican hack. And he was feeling unwell because of the Gaza attack. And they're coming up with all of these reasons as to why you shouldn't trust the special counsel's report, even though he was selected by the attorney general, Merrick Garland, and he was presented to us all as unimpeachable. And now all of a sudden he's a partisan MAGA hack who said he's, by the way, likely going to prosecute Trump for the same reasons because his crimes are more nefarious. Whereas Joe Biden, he just forgot he left the classified documents there because he's an old man who has a bad memory. And the jury would surely never prosecute him.

He's just a nice old guy. So I don't know. We were both thinking there were possibilities and things can still happen between now and election day. God knows that Murphy's law means anything can happen. But right now, the two candidates that we have are the two candidates we thought we'd have in the summer. Donald Trump and Joe Biden and Nikki Haley had zero shot. Sorry, everyone who was holding out for her.

So Nikki, zero shot, Nikki Haley. Zero shot. I mean, February 24th is the next primary in South Carolina, her home state, where she was governor, very popular governor, by the way, even Tea Party popular at the time. But now she's seen as to establishment

in the Trump era. And she's set to get want by Trump by more than 30 points. How can you keep going in a campaign when you are losing by 30 points in your home state? I mean, it took out Marco Rubio finally in Florida. And frankly, I don't think Marco Rubio can ever really run for president or anything. I mean, besides the Senate, again, because he lost so badly in his home state can really be a killer to your political ambitions. So it's I think she's taking a risk even going this far,

but she's got some big money behind her Wall Street, traditional GOP kind of George G.W. Bush donors who are behind her just like hoping maybe Trump collapses or for some reason decides he doesn't want to run anymore. But I think because of his legal issues, but I think he's running because of his legal issues because he doesn't want to be in prison. So I don't really get that reasoning. But you think that's his number one reason? I think it's up there. I think he's hungry for power. Yeah, he's hungry for power. And he wants to probably pardon himself. And also, why stop? Can you pardon yourself?

Has anyone ever done that before? You can. Yeah. He can't pardon himself of state crimes. So I guess the one crime that would be difficult to pardon himself would be the one in Georgia, the Rico case. But that was such a shit show right now. I doubt that ever gets prosecuted because the prosecutor had this

long-running relationship with the prosecutor on there, paid the guy almost a million dollars, came like... He was from an outside firm that she brought in. It's just a huge mess. And once you get into those kind of personal messes... Also, it was a sprawling RICO case that involved characters like Rudy Giuliani and Mark Meadows. How are you ever going to wrap that up neatly? It seemed like that was a dead case. But now, I guess the special counsel's case on January 6th, the classified documents case, but he can pardon himself in both of those if he becomes president. The 2024 election where you ask questions like, can he pardon himself? What's the ruling on that? And then on the flip side, you have Biden who... Is it fair to say when he won in 2020,

everyone's like, this is great. He took one for the team. He'll go four years, then he'll hand it off. Did anyone think in 2020 he was going eight years? No way. I mean, of course, the people who are around him that benefit from his power you know people in the white house they say oh that was a metaphorical bridge it wasn't a real bridge you know he's gonna keep going he's great he's strong he curses all the time like i don't know if you probably don't notice this bill but i read political news like a total junkie and when you see all of these leaks from the white house, like Biden called Netanyahu an asshole. He cursed out his staff over immigration. He cursed out the Merrick Garland over the special counsel heart. And it's like they paint all of these like

background scenes of Biden in charge and cursing out people to show that he's engaged. And it's like, oh, God, you know, it's really bad. But no, a lot of people in town were like, yay, Biden saved us from four years of Trump. He's the sacrificial lamb. He's amazing. And now in Washington, everyone is just furious at him. They think he's selfish for running again. And they think that this is a real risk. And, you know, there's a possibility that Trump comes back into office. And as he promised day one, he becomes a dictator. And if there's anything we've learned, if he says he's going to do it, he's going to do it. You know what I mean? This is a guy you have to take literally. Obviously, we have a lot of checks and balances in our country, or he wouldn't have been able to

do a lot of the things that he wanted to do his first term. But yeah, now a lot of people are just focused on, at least Democrats are focused on winning the house as a check to him, like as a way to stop him from being able to do the things that he wants to do. He'll try to do a lot through executive order, but we have a Supreme Court, although it's stacked with conservatives. It's a matter of do they think he's going too far? But in the meantime, I know a lot of people wonder, like, will Trump run from prison? Will he have an ankle bracelet? You know, what will happen before the election?

And, uh, legal experts that we've had on the show have said that there'll be such a long appeal process that he won't have to end up in prison for years and he'll pardon himself if he becomes president. So that imagery won't really happen. No jumpsuit on Orange. Him doing press conferences in the White House. No. The Biden piece, two things there.

One, everyone likes to talk, oh, behind the scenes, he's still super sharp. That's the thing that always gets floated out. No, no, he runs everything. Then why is he so not sharp in front of the screen? Like when he's doing a press conference and he's calling the Mexican president, he's saying the Mexican president

will help with getting humanitarian aid into Gaza and calling him El Sisi or how he just like kind of wanders around. He's not great on camera. He's not great in front of the curtain. So I don't know why they say he's so great behind. And yeah, they say, oh, he's been death prone his whole life. But I don't know.

He was like this in the late 80s. Is that supposed to inspire confidence, by the way? I don't know. So you have that piece and then you have the other piece where people say, oh, Biden's a fighter. He's not going to walk away from this. This is what he does. He's been fighting his whole career. He's been fighting since the plagiarism scandal. Every time he's been counted out, he's super competitive. He was almost counted out four years ago and then South Carolina happened. And the feeling is like, do you think this guy's going to be like, yeah, you guys are

right. I shouldn't be president and just roll over. Like that's not happening. That's not how he's wired. Oh, you're absolutely right. I mean, he's got a massive chip on his shoulder. He's not an Ivy league guy like the other presidents before him. You know, he really feels like every single time he wanted to run, including in 2016, he's been told to stand down, right? Obama told him, it's not your time. The party wants Hillary.

He's run for president since he was like eligible to run, essentially at like 35. He's a guy who has been in politics his entire life. He feels like he's owed it. And yeah, and his team feels like that, too, because remember, he wasn't doing well in the Democratic primaries in 2020.

There was a movement inside the party to coalesce around him so that he would be the nominee because he wasn't the natural front runner to win. He wasn't winning. He didn't win in New Hampshire. He didn't win in Iowa. South Carolina was his moment, but that was when the party poobahs like Jim Clyburn got behind him. Well, and he came through. He had one great speech that really helped him. It was almost like an athlete coming through. He actually came through on a big stage with the right kind of speech and tone. And that's what changed it. I think you're absolutely right. He had his moment, he struck it and he was able to deliver, you know, he was able to win. But the thing is that this time in the last cycle, Biden was beating Trump by 10 to 15 points in the polls. Right. And even before

the election, I remember talking to Trump aides and they were like, we're packing up our bags. Like we know it's over. Biden was killing Trump right now. Trump is killing Biden. I mean, not like really killing him, but he's up by five to seven points in the states that matter. And just like in general election general, you know, across the country, he's up by five points. And this isn't these are like pretty reputable polls, ABC News, Ipsos polls, NBC.

It's across the board. It's not some like weird right wing, you know, I don't know, Fabrizio Trump paid for polls. These are real polls. And I think that this is an issue. And I think honestly, the the war in Gaza is really going to be horrible for him because he needs that enthusiasm with young people. He needs them to run his campaign. He needs them to be the activists on the ground, to be a part of his democratic operation, to get their friends out.

And what are they doing? They're protesting him literally everywhere he goes. Right. They want to vote for Cornel West. They want to vote for third-party candidates. Jill Stein. And we know that Jill Stein, I mean, Hillary's people would say that she robbed her of Michigan and Pennsylvania and essentially the White House. But I think the

story about this election is going to be the third-party candidates and the kind of the way that they sort of throw everything off course. Because if it's really going to be a nail-biter and it's going to be one to two points, or it's going to come down to seven battleground states, then you throw in a variable or two, an X factor that's hard to pull. I don't know. I don't know that we'll even have the results for like weeks after. I just think- Oh my God. So Biden's definitely lost some of the base. Trump seems like he's the same. And then the third party candidates are the variables. So who are we talking about other than RFK Jr. and his Super Bowl ad? Oh, yeah.

What did you think of that? It was aggressive. Really? Surprising. I was like, whoa. Okay. Yeah. I feel like everyone has a mixed take on it.

I wasn't seeing it coming. They never leaked it. So I wasn't seeing it coming. They never leaked it. So I didn't see it coming. I mean, the thing when you're doing any Super Bowl ad, the goal is to grab somebody's attention, right? For 30 seconds or a minute. And the best ads always do that, right? Like Ben Affleck with Dunkin' Donuts.

It's like, what's going on here? And you're paying attention, which is Christopher Walken. Why is he walking around? So the Kennedy ad, I definitely was like, what's going on here? And I paid attention. So from that standpoint, I guess it worked, but I don't know how the entire Kennedy family feels about it. Who are the third party candidates now though? Yeah, they seem pissed. Yeah. So he uses his uncle's likeness,

obviously an old school ad. Some people thought it was brilliant. Other people obviously were angry about it. I think it definitely got attention. And I also think it sort of sent a message to disaffected Democrats that it's probably spooking the Biden people because you're seeing Kennedy using his popular Democratic name and he's aligning himself with his uncle. And he's saying basically like an independent Democrat. Isn't that kind of what people are in some ways looking for? Or at least, you know, Republicans maybe that are unhappy with Trump or Democrats that are disaffected from Biden. So I think that could do a lot of damage. And that's why the DNC is getting serious about all these third party candidates. So give us the list. Who is it? It's RFK. Who else? There's Jill Stein,

who I believe is in the Green Party, which is a party that already exists, by the way, so she can just get on that ticket. I thought you just made that up. Okay. Green Party. It sounds like we would come up with that after an hour of spitballing. All right. What are some fake parties we could... Oh,. Green party. It sounds like that would, like we would come up with that after like an hour of spitballing. All right.

What are some fake parties? We go, the green party. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So there's, um,

Cornell West was going to lean run with the green party, but now he's not. Jill Stein is running with the green party and I think he's figuring out which party he wants to run on. Okay. So that's a whole thing. Keep us posted. Oh, he's now wants to run as an independent.

So this is the thing. Okay. The reason you run on a party that already exists, like the independent ticket or like the Green Party, is because it already exists. It's already on the ballot in all 50 states or the libertarian party. So you don't have to go through the process of getting, you know, you don't have to go through the process of like creating a party line, getting on the ballot. There's a whole like, there's actually an infrastructure for these parties. Yeah, you're in there. It just makes

it a lot easier. It's us and getting on the ballot or creating a party line is really expensive. And it's difficult. Some of them, some of the states, you have to get people to sign petitions. Some of them you just have to pay for. You need lawyers. It's just a real pain in the ass. And that's why we've always had basically a Democratic Party and a Republican Party, unlike in Europe, where they have tons of parties and they start coalition governments.

We just can't get it together. But then again, they have like Nazi parties. So it's really bad there. You know, not that we should in any way be uh admiring what they do um but so they're clearly figuring it out but cornell west is very popular how many percentage points are we talking about though let's let's let's add all of them together is it like eight percent is it five percent what is it no i for, it'd be like 1%, 2%. I'm saying collectively. Let's add all of them all together.

I don't know if you throw an RFK because some of the polling when they throw RFK in there as an independent with Trump and Biden, he polls around the same amount as them at like 20%. What? Yeah, there's some polls that have him really high.

I need to find them because this was back in the summer and people were really freaking out back in the summer about how... I thought it faded a little bit. It would require that he is on a ticket, right? And for him to be on the ballot, he needs to get a running mate, which he's in the process of doing. And my colleague at Puck, Teddy Schleifer, reported that he's looking at Andrew Yang, which kind of makes sense, right? So he needs to have a running mate. And yeah, so that's an issue is that RFK is very popular when he's running. Can I tell you something? I don't think we can rule him out because we were in the same spot with Trump in 2016 in February, March. I know he's got some fans, but he's not actually

going to win. And then guess what? Yeah. No, I a thousand percent agree with you. And I don't think, I think the Democrats have realized that he's even a bigger threat than this other group that I'm going to explain. And I've been writing about them for years now. It's called No Labels. Have you heard about them? No, tell us. Okay. So No Labels is this like third party group where I'll give you some just to get an idea of who it is, like what kind of people are part of No Labels. These are the people that are co-chairs that are on the board. Joe Manchin, who's like this moderate Democrat, coal baron in the Senate, right? He's the one who always gunks up all the bills with

Kyrsten Sinema, right? Democrats are always pissed off at him. You've got Mitt Romney on there, John Huntsman. You've got Larry Hogan, like moderate Republicans, moderate Democrats, and no labels as a part of, they like support politicians who are part of the problems that others caucus. They're just like moderate Republicans and Democrats who come from swing states who want to work together. of Blackstone has been a big donor in the past. Nelson Peltz has been a big donor in the past because they kind of see it slows down the progressive agenda, these people. And it also it kind of it calls for, I guess, more bipartisan legislation in some ways. At least these people are supported. They don't need the Democratic base to support them or the Republican base to support them. So they're in the middle and they're kind of like a no man's land, which is basically what are in our political system. It's hard to be in the middle, right? It's hard to raise money from the grassroots base if you're in the middle.

So they're supported by wealthy billionaires. No labels is a 501 C4. It's a dark money group. They don't need to say who their donors are. We just know this through reporting. They decided about two years ago, let's just make our own party line as an insurance policy against exactly what you and I have been talking about, Joe Biden versus Trump. If it happens that Joe Biden and Trump are on the ballot and they are their two nominees, then we will have a third party and we will have a middle of the line unity ticket, a Republican and a Democrat. And they will run together and they will be sane, normal people

and they will save our country from this madness. And they've been working on this. They raised $70 million from their donors and they've been going around from state to state to state. And I think at this point, they're on the ballot in 30 states. It's a real concerted effort to get on the ballot and make this happen.

And yes, it's exciting. This is like where we should want to be, right? The problem is that the organization is a mess. Like, it's just not very organized. And you have Democrats trying to kill them and Republicans trying to kill them. Now, they have said, and Senator Joe Lieberman is also at the top of the he's a chairman on the board there. And he said that, you know, we will not run a candidate that will help Donald Trump win. That's our one promise. But the Democrats say, if you run a

moderate Republican, that's going to kill Joe Biden because all disaffected Republicans are going to vote for that moderate candidate over Joe Biden. The other thing they said is that they might run a moderate Democrat. At one point, Joe Manchin was at the top of the, was thought of as the top of the ticket, but then the Democrats freaked out about that. So basically the thinking is

whoever they run is going to kill Joe Biden. So it's like a reverse Ross Perot in 92. Totally. And there's been a lot of money and energy spent on the Democratic side to make sure this doesn't happen. And I think Republicans know that this operation moderate candidate is most likely to hurt Joe Biden than Trump, because a lot of those moderates are gone now. They're not voting for Trump. Yeah, that's lost. Those days are gone. They're not even calling themselves Republicans anymore, or maybe they are, but it's just not good for Joe Biden. I think all of these third-party candidates are bad for Joe Biden, except maybe RFK Jr. He

might be able to take some votes away from Trump because of the anti-vaccine stuff and the fact that Joe Bannon and Tucker Carlson for months over the summer have been talking him up. I could see him stealing some voters from Donald Trump's base, but- Well, he also might help Biden in the debates if he's the third person there and he could just kind of match crazy with Trump and Biden could just seem normal

just by standing on the side, letting them go at it. Totally, not speaking though. Right, just occasionally be like, good point, Roger. side, letting them go at it. Totally. Not speaking, though. Right. Just occasionally be like, good point, Roger. No, no, it's Robert. I don't think he'll ever get on the debate stage, though. And first of all, I don't think we're ever going to see a debate between Biden and Trump, by the way. So that was one of my quickie last questions to you. Do we see a Biden versus Trump debate? You say no. No, I don't think so.

Wow. They just keep post, but almost like a UFC fighter who doesn't want to like have a defend his title in the ring. I think Trump really wants to debate Biden. I don't think Biden wants to do it. Maybe, but I mean, for the same, why didn't they the same... Why didn't they take the Super Bowl opportunity?

That was super weird. That's the biggest audience platform you're going to have, basically, for the entire year. And it's a softball. I mean, if Obama could sit down with Bill O'Reilly and everyone could have it on mute and still think, oh, he looks pretty poised and good next to Bill O'Reilly, who looks really aggressive. No one remembers anything about that interview, but they remember thinking like, oh, that's kind of badass that he's doing that, right? But you have the opportunity at this point to sit across from like nice, pretty Nora O'Donnell and CBS News, and you're not going to take it? Again, though, he'd be on mute,

and he might be looking old next to Norah O'Donnell. Well, Jon Stewart, who came back last night, and he had a funny thing about how he passed that up, but ended up on TikTok, where he seemed, Jon Stewart said he's the first person who seemed old on TikTok. So I don't know if that was necessarily the right move. That was my next quickie question. Does Jon Stewart coming back on Mondays, I know it's not like a massive,

massive platform, but it is a big high profile voice who is going to be lampooning both sides. Does that change the election for you at all? Yes. It just makes all of the talking points you're listening to on, um, cables and it just sort of like punctures all of the veneers that we've been sort of dealing with, like the comedy of it all. Um, it really does cause it is comedy and these people are sort of like serving up dog food saying, no, no, no, it's real food. And people are like, no, no, no, I see what's going on here. I think the American people are smarter than that. And it's just like, instead of like being angry, I think sometimes the humor helps you kind of know, okay, I'm right. And this is a little crazy. And what is happening right now is I think it will, in some ways, I think it will calm the nerves, but he's not sparing either of them. Like, I know Jon Stewart is a liberal, but he's not sparing Biden. And I think that's like something

as a journalist, like I truly am, you know, a journalist who doesn't who tries not to take a side in this. But it's really like you cannot not evaluate Joe Biden as a candidate. Like, yes, Trump is nuts. Yes, Trump gets mixes up names, calls Nikki Haley, Nancy Pelosi and has, you know, crazy behavior and this and that. But like, you also can't just give Joe Biden a pass at the same time, because ultimately, like he's deciding to run for the presidency and the party, no one in the entire Democratic Party is really challenging him for it, except this guy, Dean Phillips, like some random guy from Minnesota. And everyone else has just been parroting the same talking points about how he's so brilliant and sharp. And everything we're seeing in front of our own eyes is just like our minds are playing tricks on us.

Well, that's my next quick question. Is there any chance we get to the convention and they try to pull a fast one? Oh, yeah. I mean, that's a really good question. And it's kind of the conversation that I think journalists have at dinner parties because it's kind of, and officials, et cetera,

because it's like uncomfortable you know conversation um there is a way there was a contested convention in chicago uh back in 1968 by the way the next the convention in august the democratic convention is also in chicago it ended in riots bloodshed it's not really pretty um it's not always great especially if it's seen as some sort of like a backdoor maneuvering. Politico has a good piece actually on this and how it would logistically work out if Joe Biden were to pull out. And I've talked to people about this that are in the party. Essentially, you go through the whole primary process. You can't do a primary at this point.

It's too late. You can't even get on the ballot at this point. It's too late. So Biden collects all his delegates, superdelegates, et cetera. He decides, you know, he would have the power at that point if he wanted to bow out to choose who he wants to step in for him. He's a kingmaker. Yeah. He becomes the kingmaker. Now, this is where it gets uncomfortable and why there might be an impetus to have a race after he becomes kingmaker around June after all the primaries are over. Is that if he appoints his own vice president who has a lower approval rating than him, they might the Democrats might be worse off. Right. So, you know, lots of these politicians will be poll tested in the meantime against Trump and they'll be out there as surrogates for Biden, you know, like J.B. Pritzker, Gavin Newsom, your guy in California, Gretchen Whitmer. And yeah, I know you have thoughts on him. Gretchen Whitmer in Michigan. These you know, these popular Democrats are out there on the road.

They'll be poll tested and they'll probably be like, you know, fighting for the nomination. But Kamala Harris will be in there, too. It's his vice president. And if she was a stronger vice president, I do think that there would be no question. I even think these conversations wouldn't be as loud as, you know, concerning. For some reason, her polls are really low. The American people don't like her i you know i just had someone on the show who wrote a book about her charlie spearing he's a conservative writer

but we kind of got down to the the heart of it like why don't people like kamala harris is it racism is it sexism and his argument is that she isn't able to communicate effectively um she can't land a clear message that she just tries to do too many circles around really important hot button issues when people are looking for an answer. And that's probably why her campaign was so unsuccessful. But also, she's unwilling to go near... I mean, she ran one of the worst campaigns anyone's run in the last 20 years. Exactly. But also, she's unwilling to towards the Hoppe and issues and try to solve the crisis and problems like the migration crisis, like the baby formula crisis. You know, she doesn't want anything to touch her. She's sort of very protective and protective of her own political image. And people can see that. And I think that's what sort of rubbed off on her. Whereas if Biden had a vice president who was seen as a stronger vice president, maybe we wouldn't be talking about his age as much. Maybe we wouldn't

be as worried. We talked on the phone, I think like maybe three months ago, and I asked you, is there any chance he would switch VPs? And you said, no chance, zero, will never happen. Yeah, no. I mean, every president has talked about switching VPs because they add electoral advantage. There's really nothing else the VP does. They're very ceremonial. They take all the shit jobs, like deal with migration. They go to meet with leaders that don't matter. But there's no chance. I mean, the Democratic base is Black women, African-Americans, young people, and she was brought on to activate that base. And if they drop the first historic

African-American woman from the ticket, I think there would be absolute mayhem. So they would have to be really delicate. And there's no precedent for anyone to change VPs going into the second term. I can't even remember the last time that happened. It did in like early 20th century. They did.

Right. Yeah, you were going back before we had cars. Exactly. They were like, oh, this guy doesn't offer much anymore. And like, just like Trump chose Pence

because he's an evangelical and they didn't trust him on pro-life issues, right? Yeah. So it's, and the funny thing is at one point, Trump thought about replacing Pence

with Nikki Haley, right? So here we are now. Oh, my God. I know, crazy. But the point is, is that it would never happen. And I just think if he decides for some reason not to run, which I don't think will happen now, I think would happen in the summer, he would have to be so careful with how he managed the Kamala part of it. I think they'd have to sit down together as a ticket.

So he couldn't just say like, hey, it's Gavin Newsom. He's going to step in for me. I've decided, dude, am I whatever? And it's going to be him. That would just be super weird that he wouldn't pick the VP. The whole point of the VP is you're one moment away from being the president. Right, exactly. The whole thing, though, is that you have to convince the delegates to jump onto that new candidate. And, you know, ostensibly, if you're the president, you're the leader of the party, you should be able to tell the delegates that voted for you what to do, right?

But delegates have their own things. They're not completely loyal to the candidate necessarily. So maybe that sort of wrinkle of some of the, some maybe like delegate protests might offer him a window or an escape hatch of like, I'll just let the delegates decide and we'll do it that way.

Although it just seems so undemocratic. That's so anti-Biden. I can't imagine him doing that. He's just gonna be like, yeah, all right. Like he's gonna wanna be the kingmaker if he has some. But like I said earlier, I don't see it. There's no moment in this guy's life for the last 40 years where he's just like, oh, maybe you guys are right. Maybe I

don't have it anymore. He's the opposite of that. He's going to keep going. So there's another thing that can happen after the convention. If for some reason he resigns, he becomes disqualified, he becomes disabled, then it also comes down. I think this one I read in Politico because I didn't know about this one. I just want to get it right. there's another way okay post-convention in the event of quote death resignation or disability the DNC chairman

who's Jamie Harrison right now he confers with the Democratic leadership of the Congress that would be like the Speaker of the House

Hakeem Jeffries right and the Democratic Governors Association and they report who they want to the 450 DNC committee members. And they choose a nominee. And they'd also pick a new running mate if they elevated Kamala Harris to the top of the ticket. But yeah, that's...

Man. In that case, they can kind of wipe out Kamala altogether or they can elevate her and pick someone else. That's kind of crazy, right? I mean, in that way, that's a real secret meeting that happens. Yeah, that sounds like out of succession. Like when they had that, wherever they went, whether it was the...

They were in Wyoming or North Dakota or wherever and they had to basically Connor Roy's trip trying to make a play for Presidency, all that stuff. There's a lot going on. I'm glad we have this podcast. I'm glad you're here to break all of it down. Who's been the MVP guest so far? Do you have an MVP? You don't want to name one?

I love having on my puck team. I love having Teddy Schleifer on. He's great. Good political answer. Yeah, good political answer. But I also really liked my chat with Meghan McCain after Joe Biden's poor memory

issue. I thought that was fun. But yeah, we've had a lot of good, fun guests. I try to keep it topical on the news to help you understand it. And I try to bring on guests that will cut the news to help you understand it. And I try to bring on guests that will cut through, you know,

the spin, or at least if they are spinning, I'm trying to unwind them a little bit, but it's, it's, it's going to be a wacky year. So it's hard to, it's hard to pre-tape.

We can read you on puck. Listen to this. Somebody's got a wind podcast there. Good to see you. Thanks for having me though. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kyle Creighton and Steve Cerruti. Thanks to Tara.

And thanks to Logan as well. Don't forget, you can watch clips and videos from this podcast from rewatchables, go to youtube.com slash Bill Simmons. I'm going to have another podcast for you on Thursday. So I'll see you then. I don't have feelings within. On the wayside, I'm a bruised soul, I never was. And I don't have feelings within.

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