The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Wiggins Game, Curry’s Quest, the Miami Bullyballers, and Fake Ayton Trades With Ryen Russillo

Episode Date: May 23, 2022

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Ryen Russillo to discuss the Warriors' Game 3 win over the Mavericks to bring the series to 3-0, the Andrew Wiggins renaissance in Golden State, Steph Curry chasing his sixth Finals appearance, and the depth of talent in the NBA (3:31). They also talk about the Celtics’ Game 3 loss to the Heat, a look ahead to Game 4, discussions about an eventual midseason NBA tournament, fake Deandre Ayton trades, and more (37:31). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Ryen Russillo Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, F1 fans, hope you're checking out the Ringer F1 show. It's hosted by Kevin Clark. On Sundays sometimes, like today, Spanish Grand Prix. Broke it down right after with Megan Schuster. He also has journalists, fans, all types of people on. Check it out, the Ringer F1 show, only on the Ringer Podcast Network. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have

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New Rewatchables is going to be coming on Tuesday this week, not Monday, because I am going to do another podcast tomorrow night. We made this one a one-parter. I'm going to do another one

tomorrow night after Seltz Heat and have a special guest for the second part of that as well. I guess that I think will surprise you and delight you. Surprise and delight you. Speaking of the Ringer Podcast Network, if you missed the

PGA Championship, or if you watched it, either way, you're going to be happy because Fairway Rowland is going to have a podcast about it with Nathan Hubbard and Joe House. I watched a pretty blah tournament until the last five or six holes. Felt like nobody wanted it. Nobody wanted to take it. JT just kind of plugging away.

Got to his minus five. Felt like it was going to be one shot short. And then a double bogey on the 18th by our leader. Poor Amito. Feeling it. Just feeling it. Had no money on it. Didn't bet on this tournament at all. And for whatever reason, you just could feel the possible choke hanging over 18, especially with that weird drive. Some people were kind of going near the water. All you had to do was par it.

He wins the PGA, wins a major. Instead, double. Tough. Not on the all-time short list of roughest collapses in a major, but in terms of just watching somebody on the 18th staring at, if I par this, I win a major, and just gacking the drive, that would definitely be in the YouTube clip of that. Anyway, check out Fairway Rowan.

Check out the Ringer F1 show as well with Kevin Clark. Reacted to the Spanish Grand Prix. And check out Ringer FC because the Premier League ended on Sunday. I actually watched the second half of the Man City game. That was exciting stuff. Got to say, soccer, sport might catch on. Who knows? Watch out for those young kids kicking that ball. Pretty good stuff. I remember the days when Mark Stein was saying they were the Clippers, the Premier League. When I was trying to pick my Premier League team, I picked Tottenham.

That lasted a couple of years. Then my kids got older and I realized that I did not have enough weekend bandwidth to really throw myself in the soccer. So I had to abandon it. Would have been great. I wish I'd found it 10 years sooner. It would have been great for me. Speaking of soon, Ryan Marcello's coming up in one second. We're going to talk about Warriors-Mavs,

Andrew Wiggins Day. We're going to talk about Celtics Heat. We're going to make up some DeAndre Ayton trades. We're going to talk about this mid-season tournament idea and a whole bunch more.

It's all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right. We are taping this part of the podcast. 1141 Eastern Time. I'm in Boston, Massachusetts. Just watched Warriors-Mavs.

Game three. This was a popular betting pick was the Mavs in the first half. Mavs to come back. Usually game three, so Mark Davis was there. You know what? Turned out to be Andrew Wiggins' day. Russell, are you caught up on We Own This City yet? You're not all the way caught up, right?

You watched first three? Yeah, first three. I'm sort of like saving it just because of how much I enjoy it. I mean, it's just anybody who's a Wire fan, you're like, I can't believe I get to see something like this 20 years later.

Oh my God. Well, episode four is great. We broke it down on Prestige TV, but at one point, Wayne Jenkins, the Bernthal character, something good happens for him. He's like, happy Wayne Jenkins Day. He named the day after himself. He's the villain character, charismatic.

This was how I felt about Andrew Wiggins Day today. This felt like Andrew Wiggins Day. This was it. We talk later in this podcast about Hall of Famers and there's a whole Andrew Wiggins day today. This felt like Andrew Wiggins day. This was it. We talked later in this podcast about Hall of Famers and there's a whole Andrew Wiggins session there. This was probably the most important basketball game he's ever played. This was the most impressed I've been by him in a basketball game. And it's hard not to say that this was one of the most important trades of the last 10 years. When you think they got a guy who's a valuable starter for them in a playoff series they're about to make the finals it looks like and they get the cominga pick for a guy russell that you and i don't really like that much well we know the part

that you're going to hear later that was taped before the game that once i made a very strong anti-wiggins hall of fame argument which i still think is somewhat strong uh he was going to go off tonight so that's just like as soon as we got done, I was like, he's going to have 40. You inspired him. And he had a poster dunk too. He dunked on Luka. The rare, they reversed the call. I couldn't believe it. I figured they would just go

with his off arm and Luka sold it a little bit. But I was just happy for just, if you believe in anything in life, that should be two points. Yeah. That's like a spirit of the game. Are you surprised? Well, let's talk about Wiggins first. There's that what if with him in 2014 where Cleveland has the first pick, but all of a sudden LeBron's coming back to Cleveland. And I remember there's a piece of my Grantland archives about this, about me

wondering if it made sense to actually keep Wiggins and for LeBron to use the next couple of years to kind of, you know, they had a young roster that Kyrie tried to train Wiggins basically to be his Pippen, to be his athletic sidekick, defender, doesn't need to, you know, have the ball like LeBron does and stuff like that. But they traded him, obviously, to Minnesota, and his career went a different direction. He always put up stats. But when I saw a game like tonight, it makes me think, let's say they just keep him for a year to see if they like him.

Or let's say Kevin Love isn't sitting there. They just don't have a trade, and they're like, let's take Wiggins and we'll just keep him. Do you think his career's different? I hear this a lot. People talk about quarterbacks a lot, like, oh, bad coaching staff, they change the coordinator. Usually, they're changing the coordinator so much, it's because you're not playing well. I'm not as big of a believer on that, that there's some alternative,

choose-your-own-adventure life path as a basketball player for Andrew Wiggins. I think the problems for him coming out of Kansas, whenever we look at any draft prospect, you go, hey, if it works out, it's going to be because it's elite athleticism. He'll develop more as a shooter. You know, I remember thinking at some point with him, even talking to teams ago, at the very worst, you're going to get this elite defensive player because of his length, size and athleticism. And for a very large, large chunk of his career, he's been an incredibly disappointing defensive player. So I don't know that his personality would have changed all of a sudden. I just don't. I mean, I'm sure other people would argue it, but I mean, this is, I think what's so frustrating about him

is that he should be a really consistently great basketball player. I'm not talking about like one of the all-time greats, but somebody that you depend upon as opposed to being surprised when he plays like this tonight. But I think that's his career. Yeah, and there's been a lot of guys like that over the years.

And I think- Do you think it'd be different for him if he started in Cleveland and it was just- I do think sometimes, especially with basketball, that if you end up in a really good situation and you end up with the right person next to you, it can shift. I think your destiny can shift a little bit. I also believe that if you have the skill set and the personality that he had and you just go to the Minnesota wasteland and basically your one highlight was the year Jimmy Butler was there and all he did was MF your teammates

for the entire year he was there and talk about what you guys didn't have. And then he leaves, he blows his way out of there. And there was a stigma to him. At the same time, you and I teammates for the entire year he was there and talk about what you guys didn't have. And then he leaves, he blows his way out of there. And there was a stigma to him. At the same time, you and I have talked about how frustrating he's been. I don't know how many times in this pod. He's the prototypical example of,

I was at the game and I forgot you were out there. You know, when we talked about the all-star team for that, it's like, whoa, you were out there for the whole third quarter? I didn't even notice. Think about... Oh, go ahead, go ahead. But no. It's like, whoa, you were out there for the whole third quarter? I didn't even notice. Think about... Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

But no, it's just, I think that's been the frustrating thing about him. But at the same time, I do feel like until he got to Golden State, I would say his career was kind of a bad beat. It was the wrong type of guy to go to the wrong type of situation that he went to. And he was putting up stats. That's the thing. Go through like every year, he was like pretty much 17 to 22 points a year. He was putting up stats. That's the thing. Go through like every year, he was like pretty much 17 to 22 points a year

and he was pretty durable. So I think from the Warriors making a bet that they could probably pull the best possible pieces out of him was a pretty smart bet. We've seen teams do that before with the high pedigree lottery guys. Especially when you go to Golden State

because life's going to be that much easier. I remember talking to a team source about it, and it was just a really simple basketball observation. This guy, with all the movement, with all of the freedom that you'll have because of all the attention that's going to be on Steph, and then at the time

what was thought to be prime clay, and then Draymond's playmaking. This is incredible. You're going to be at worst, I guess, with the most pressure on you, you'd be the fourth most important player on the team. And, you know, there's been moments

where he might not even be the fifth most important player on this team, depending on what Poole's done or, you know, certain moments like what Looney did in game two. So I kind of always, a lot of people disagree with me on this,

but I actually feel stronger and stronger about this as I get older because it applies to sports as much as it does to people. Like when somebody has a certain personality and then we ask like, why would this guy do this? You're like, well, that's who he is. He does these things because this is who he is and these are the decisions that he makes. So whenever we talk about athletes and you'll be like, oh, I wonder why he's like this. Like, yeah, some people just kind of have that personality. Like one of my least favorite comps that I'll ever hear is when people say, well, why can't you just build an offense for Ben Simmons like you did Giannis? You're like, have you watched either of those players play?

Do you understand anything about their personalities? Do you understand the gap between the way they see competition? Like, I don't care about the size and the skills and these things and the limitations both have from the outside. Giannis is a completely different person. His DNA, his mental makeup is completely different. Ben Simmons is never going to be that. So don't ask for it. And I- Like my guy Jabari Smith. Who? Jabari?

My guy Jabari. I think he has it. You think he has the personality for it? I do. I think he has the personality to be like every year I'm going to get better at this. I'm going to keep working until I get to this point, until I add this. That's why I think he should be the number one pick. But you're right about putting the work in.

The Wiggins part, he had 24 a game one season. And it would always be like one season he came back, he hit like 37 from three for the first half of the season. You're like, oh, he's figuring it out. He's figuring it out. And then, you know, remember Doris Burke, who's really nice to players because when you have that gig, you kind of have to be positive all the time. The NBA doesn't want you dumping on players and dumping on the product. I don't know if you have to call people by their first names, but I agree. Anyway, she called him out in a way that I was

like, whoa, but I was, I was proud of her because it was accurate. And it was, you know, it's, it's almost like when Van Gundy every now and then, Jeff will kind of let somebody have it. I think it was a Cam Reddish. And you go, I wonder where this is coming from, you know? So some guys are just not wired the right way. And I look at tonight as an awesome part of the story, but also a confirmation of how frustrating he is as a player

because he should have been better. He reminds me, there's certain guys in the past who I think had more talent than whatever the final product was. And in some cases they had issues off the court. You know, I think Kenny Anderson, um, is a good example of that.

But like big dog, Glenn Robinson, right. Who I, he was number one pick. He was a career 20.7 a game he was basically a guaranteed 21 22 a game um and you know it didn't seem like he didn't seem like somebody who'd be that awesome to play with and then in the 2000 in the uh 2001 playoffs with that Ray Allen team you know he would have

moments and it was like oh oh, this is big dog. This is like the guaranteed two, but he could never, he just could never have the consistency to be very good. You know, he could do his one thing. He never really got better. He kind of was,

I don't really feel like he evolved as a player over the years. Wiggins, the thing with him that I think has evolved is the, I didn't think the hoops IQ was there like this. Like to play on this team, this is like being a, I don't know, like in one of those Chris guest or like Curb Your Enthusiasm where it's like, if you're going to be on that show, you have to have some ad lib skills. That's good. You can't just be like, show me the cue cards and I'll just read

what's on there. I studied that. Wait, why are you doing that? I wasn't prepared for this. You really have to be pretty fluent. And I think the way he's fit into that, I did not expect. I would have predicted that that would have been a real struggle for him, but he's a smarter basketball player than I thought. If you keep moving and you keep willing to pass and you keep like, if you buy in, and I still can't imagine, I always joke about it, but I would love to know how the isolation-heavy, non-movement guys, if they ever watch tape of how Golden State runs their offense, do they go, why would they want to do that?

That's exhausting. Yeah, it's so much energy. You're like, wait a minute. You pass it, and then you run to the opposite corner? That sucks. What if you don't get the ball back? You find a space? You try to fill the space?

What's that? When everybody's outside the three-point line, you cut. What if you don't get it? Sometimes you don't even get it and you just cut to cut? No, I don't want to do that. I just want to stand in the corner. It's pretty brilliant. Look, I think that there's

some parts of him that are really impressive. When he takes off, he had a baseline cut tonight where he didn't finish. Obviously, the one against Luka, which is going to be one of the best in-game playoff dunks you're going to see this season. It's fantastic, man. But there's also been some playoff things with him where you're like, why are you taking that shot on this team? There's been some late game shots the last couple of years. You're like, why are you taking that shot on this team? There's been some late game shots

the last couple years. You're like, what? Wait, you thought you were the guy to take that? The playing game last year, he did that. Exactly. There's sneaky tall guys like Chuck Klosterman, sneaky tall guy. It's like 6'3". Tony Kornheiser.

Yeah, Tony. There's certain guys you meet. I'm apparently a sneaky tall guy to some people. Some people out there think I'm like 6'3". Really? Whoa. Tony Kornheiser. Yeah, Tony. There's certain guys you meet. I'm apparently a sneaky tall guy to some people. Some people out there think I'm like 5'8". I'm 6'1". No, I think people want you to be 5'8". Same thing with me. People want me to be like 5'7", so bad. And they're like, oh.

Yeah, they want the talking heads guy to be tiny. Yeah. Wiggins is kind of, it's just weird to say about a basketball player, but he's like a sneaky tall big guy that you kind of don't think, like he's guarding Luka and he's the same size as Luka and physically can really hold up to him. And I just don't think of him in my head as like this 6'8 physical guy. Because that's, in your head, you think he's more out of that like 6'6 prototypical shooting guard guy, but he's not. He's actually like a bigger dude than that. You know, it's a good point because when I think of him at his size,

like I don't feel like he's that much bigger than Bridges when I watch him on the court, but he is. And despite the Bridges defensive, like I'm not going to look at that series and now think Mikkel Bridges sucks on defense because he doesn't. Because he can play in the perimeter. I mean, the rim contest stuff that Bridges did the seasons. But it's clear that Wiggins is more of an impediment than Bridges was.

Bridges just was not, he couldn't hold up. He wasn't solid enough. Yeah, he can physically keep his ground when Luka's doing that LeBron thing. Or give himself a chance. Bridges felt like he was in an amusement park with a ticket for a ride there. Another guy who was a little like what we're talking about, Rashid was a good example of Detroit buying pretty low on a guy with some real pedigree. But the Celtics getting Robert Parrish in 1981 is basically, they trade back from one to three in the McHale trade.

The Warriors want Joe Barry Carroll and like, our back just gets them to throw in Parrish. He has to throw in the 13th pick. And Parrish at that point, you know, had the rap of really talented, doesn't really give a shit, you know?. He's in this weird Golden State situation. Golden State was a mess in general. Comes to Boston and becomes this really valuable guy. He's the best version of one of these trades.

That's a good example where we're talking about the top. Sometimes you're just in the wrong situation. I don't think that's the only reason Wiggins was so frustrating in Minnesota, but I think it was a reason. And I'm really impressed by him. And in the next series, if it ends up being the Celtics, they're going to need him because of Tatum.

And if it ends up being Miami, they're going to need him because of Butler. And they're going to need, because Klay can't guard those guys anymore like that. And you really want Draymond roaming around like he does and doing all that stuff. That part of it, man, that they have somebody, because remember we were trying to match it all out, and you're like, well, how much Draymond are they going to use a Luka? Because you thought maybe they're just going to feel like they have to do it because you're always going to be looking for Steph.

Poole doesn't play defense. No Gary Payton. Klay, who has, I mean, look, athletically tonight, that's probably as good as we've seen him. He's given us little glimpses at the end of the regular season, but it's not something where defensively you feel like you can hold up for a long amount of time, even though when he did get that switch with Luka late, he held up really well, stayed in front of him.

But the Wiggins minutes where, you know, Luka's still scoring a million points, but that Wiggins allows you anything, you know, starting your offense a little bit later that it's not. I mean, nobody's a match for Luka at this point. That's probably as important in this series to get to the 3-0 lead as anything offensively that Wiggins has done. Really impressive win by them. This is the spot. It just has usually the makings of the road team is down 10 early and just can never get it going. Especially them, by the way. Their personality is that of like, hey, we got these guys.

They blew game two. They can't stop us. But, I mean, Golden State still lost the turnover battle. They only had 10 turnovers tonight. The thing that continues to be the unsolvable part of this, well, there's a couple things that are problematic for Dallas here, but

the rebounding thing. It's plus 14 in rebounds again with these small lineups. That is, when you're rebounding like that, and by the way, when Dallas can't make any shots outside of Luka and a couple guys here or there, you're not going to win any games. But I was, knowing this Warriors team pretty well over the last seven years, this would have been normally a spot where we're like, ah, we got these guys. Yeah. Well, and we made it seem with all the Wiggins talk, like he shut down Luka. He did not. Luka had 40 points.

He was limping for 23. Got to the free throw line 17 times. He had 11 rebounds. He just made Luka work for everything he had. And the fact that he could at least handle Luka for the most part, and Looney was involved too, and the fact that Draymond can then move around and do his stuff. I mean, the role guys on Dallas, Dinwiddie was good tonight.

He hit 26, but the Kleba series, oof. Another ship on by him. Three straight terrible games. He 0 for 5 today. Zero points. They were minus 12 when he was out there. This was a crucial guy for them in the last two series. And then

Bullock was 0 for 7. And Bertans, not that you can count on Bertans, but he didn't make anything either. It just feels like Golden State's 4 through 10 guys are just so much better

than Dallas' 4 through 10 guys. That's what's swinging the series and they're bringing fucking Moody off the bench. He's like an 11th man this season and he's actually out there. He's like a legitimate three and D guy. That guy's going to be a starter. I watched him in a G game. I was in El Segundo checking him out against

the Lakers and you know, you're watching that game. Why didn't you invite me to that one? I would have gone to that. Would you have? Did you make action El Segundo? I think you could have talked me into that. Yeah. I had courtside seats and everything.

I loved it. I got to see the Mac McClung show up, up close. That's where I really will lock in that interview. He's a tough guy to get. Let me, let me ask you this part of it. Well,

I don't know. You have a list of all the things you want to do, but I have a question for you. Well, just last thing on Moody. Moody, ironically, Wiggins is an expiring contract next year, and this might be the classic, they max him out as an asset during this playoff run and then try to figure out,

can we use him and another piece, maybe Wiseman, and try to get another real guy. And then Moody gets the Wiggins minutes. Could he handle it? I think he could. Or Kamega does. He certainly doesn't look scared out there. And Kamega, some combo in there. But it's a really, really, really cool, constructed team where they have this future that's far away. And then they have this present with some guys that are either, I've talked about this before, but they're either tailing to their prime or a little past their prime. Usually that doesn't work in basketball, but it's working with this.

What did you want to ask me? What do you think's gone wrong? From a Dallas team that was kind of a sneaky pick for people here, you have to be incredibly impressed with what they did to Phoenix in games six and 7, especially with the way that series starts. It felt like momentum-wise, can anybody do anything with Luka? What do you

think has been the biggest problem? Why has this changed? 13 for 45 from 3 today? They didn't hit a 3 for a game and a half. That's what changed. When they beat Phoenix, they were hitting threes.

You know? And Phoenix, who knows what happened in that game. I mean, there's conspiracy theories flying now about just everything about those last couple games.

But I think it might have, I don't want to say it's a fluke, but I think it was just a weird moment that I'm not sure Dallas, Nat, the more we watch them, especially when you see them against a team that has the depth of Golden State,

their lack of depth, it's kind of hard to believe they made the Final Four. It speaks to how great Luka was and how hot they got in that Phoenix series. So I look at it that way. I don't think the Phoenix series was a fluke, but I think just a bunch of events happened at the same time, and Chris was really worn down, but I think just a bunch of events happened at the same time. And

Chris was really worn down and that Phoenix team got tight. They didn't really have the depth either. And all of a sudden they were going on to the next round, but I thought they, I really thought they would put up a better battle on this. I thought they would win at least one of the first three. That one surprises me. The 3-0, I would not have predicted. I can't help but think about the ISO stuff, the high usage rate teams though. though. Back to my point that I did a couple months ago, where this does not work. I'm not saying it can never work, but it historically basically doesn't work. And I thought when Golden State went zone, God, I don't understand why every team doesn't just come out of a timeout with a different defensive look. I love it. I would mix it up. How about box and one? How great is it to see a box

and one? I love box and one. So that's really funny though. Cause Allie LaForse, who's awesome, uh, asked Jason Kidd, like, Hey, how do you handle the zone? How do you handle the box one? And I love when a basketball guy like, cause Jason Kidd's going to know way more about basketball than all of us where he goes, actually the box one helped us. Cause we've got open looks in the corner. It was awesome. We just need to make them like it didn't work okay and i thought all right that was awesome he wasn't and he wasn't being i don't think he was being a jerk to her yeah but it was oh my gosh like we got a sideline in-game interview where he gave us something real where it was like yeah i know we missed everything and it's going to say

verse the box in one this was how bad we were on offense. He was like, you know, it was great. We got everything wide open. Nobody made anything. I do wonder if you're a five-out heavy team like Dallas, if Boxing 1 zone, like even if you get good looks, it just deadens you as a basketball player or as a team offensively.

And I'm telling you, like there's moments and, you know, some of this is funny. Like I'll go like, oh, you know, Golden State, these guys are front runners. Who has a good time losing a basketball game?

Okay. I don't remember watching too many teams like, you know what? They lose a lot, but boy, are they engaged and having fun. All right.

It's not a lot of hats. See, but I wonder if you're so like usage heavy with Luca and you're five out and now it's like okay they got gimmicky defensively hey you got to cut to the middle you know somebody's going to catch in the middle and then kick it back out get it in and then get it out and make people think about what they're doing i do wonder if a heavy heavy small five out team when they face this gimmicky stuff if it isn't like oh yeah you did get open shots but you guys

offensively right now are just in a malaise and that's what it felt like in that second quarter where I'm going it's not that they can't get a good look it's that they stopped playing basketball because they're just they're like wait some of the stuff that we would normally do the drive and kick stuff like it's just not there because

there's so many bodies in the lane well they only had seven turnovers. They shot 34 free throw attempts. One of the issues was I just felt like anytime Golden State really wanted a bucket, they were getting it. And Curry

is just I don't think he's as good as he was in that 15-16 stretch. That was probably the peak of his powers, but he's pretty close and he really knows this team. And I got to say, we've talked about this before, but the three years with Durant, it's such a bummer that Curry just didn't have his own team the whole time. Because this would be amazing if they made the finals with this team that they have. They don't have another all-NBA you know, and people would say, well, Draymond.

It's like, well, not, not really. I don't think he's a top 15 player. He might be like top 25, top 30, but I mean, I, you know, and Clay is in the state he's in pool has been kind of marginalized this series because Dallas has been hunting them. So Golden State's been very careful about playing him. But I was thinking about like about this would be Curry's six finals. He's one away now. Six finals is a real achievement. You're talking LeBron made 10,

Kareem made 10, Russell made 12, Kobe made 7, West made 9, Havlicek made eight, Magic made nine, Duncan made six, Jordan six, Shaq six, Wilt six, Koozie seven, Elgin seven. Even Bird didn't make six finals. Even Dr. J didn't make six finals. It's a short list of like, were you an awesome player? Did you make the finals? How many times did you make it. So six, especially with the fact that he's got this young core. And if they strike oil with Kamingo, like you and I think they might have down the road, like him two years from now, if that becomes like a pass the torch possible guy,

he might, LeBron made 10 finals, Curry, the 10 finals might not be out of the question because they'll also spend the money too. And if they play this Wiggins-Wisman thing, if that's the trade and bring one more star in, who knows? All right. I love this because I agree with you that the most absurd version of Steph may be gone. All right. But we definitely take him for granted. You know, he'll have 30 and then maybe he doesn't have the best fourth quarter and you're like, oh, and then he still has,

but then he'll have like the next game. He'll have two of like the biggest like stake in the heart threes against you. And like those feel like they're worth more than three points because you're like, we did everything.

He did it at the end of the first half today. He says, oh, it's like one of those. Yeah, but they went one of those. Yeah. But the one on the corner, we turned and looked at his bench as it was going through. Uh, those mean more than three points to me.

I really believe that. And you know, you look at the Memphis series, you're like, ah, right. You know, he's 42 and 33%.

Like what's going on. And then it's kind of, I was reading a previous today. It was like, you know, he still hasn't really found his rhythm. He's now 49 and 48% from overall in three he's on 10 attempts he's at 48 percent and people are kind of like yeah i don't know the biggest thing with him is that however he changed his body type

and i think it was him knowing what it was going to be like with clay being out and last season like last season was set up for is steph gonna like a referendum on on Steph and who he really is, and then maybe he's behind the top guys. Granted, it's not like that team didn't even get out of the play-in, so let's not get too crazy, but that team was bad. I thought he bulked up. I think his driving is the best it's ever been. Me too.

It certainly looks against Dallas. I don't want to use embarrassing because that's almost insulting, but it's, I mean, I'll just say it's pathetic how easy it is to get the rim against this team. It's a joke. Like, as soon as Golden State feels like there's anything coming, like, hey, you guys just want to get to the rim?

And then they'd hunt Luka a little bit, and then they were doubling like crazy. It was a little like Brooklyn, actually. Remember Boston just getting to the rim anytime they wanted against Brooklyn when they'd have those small guards out there? Same thing. Yeah. When Boston was good in the playoffs.

We're going to talk about that later. Yeah, Curry. Just one of a kind, man. And he needs this from... I'm probably partly responsible for the legacy conversation which everybody seems to have to have all the time now.

Something that we love to do on this thing. But it's a little different when you add that 22 finals, when you have the five in a row and Durant shows up for the last three. And if that had just been it, it would have been its own little era and it would have been special. But then to get back, like Havlicek in 74 and 76 brings the

Celtics two more finals, like a little past his prime, probably even a little more past his prime than Curry is this year. I still feel like Curry's in the tail end of his prime, but Havlicek gets these two extra titles after Russell. And it just changes how you would think of him historically. I think he's one of the 15, he has to be on the list of the best 15 ever because of his durability and all the things. But those last two really helped him. And I think with Curry, even making the finals

this year, that's such a coup for him when you look at this Warriors team, which is a really strange team. I think the West was not what it used to be. I don't think there's any question. Well, it definitely isn't.

You know, and I'll just jump in because I did this on my pod. I know, maybe you know, I've just texted about it, but I had to kind of,

and maybe way too late in the game when I was evaluating the top teams, and now this is without Phoenix too because we looked at Phoenix with this profile of like,

hey, you realize it's Phoenix and then and it's everybody else because all these different things that they've been doing that didn't work out but we had been spoiled with 10 plus years of teams we were like who's beating those guys all right yeah and then they it was either lebron crew or golden state and then it was lebron going up against that crew and then getting one against them, and then Durant coming into it, and then the Toronto thing's a little weird because of the clay, and then Durant injuries, and then maybe we didn't look at the Lakers, the bubble, and then Milwaukee was new, but had Milwaukee gotten out of the East, which very well could have happened if they figured out a way to win Game 7,

maybe Milwaukee would be in that conversation. But I know Miami's a classic example this like am i comparing miami to the rest of the east or am i comparing miami to 10 years of thinking there's a scary team and if the scary team doesn't exist that means you have to almost be you have to just change your perception of what a team ceiling is when there isn't this how the hell are we going to beat those guys out there i'm going to add to what you just said i think the scary team ceiling is when there isn't this, how the hell are we going to beat those guys out there? I'm going to add to what you just said. I think the scary team era is over.

I think there's too much talent now. Part of the reason we had this imbalance in these scary teams was we just didn't have the same kind of talent. Like the 2017 Celtics made the conference finals with like Kelly Olenek and Amir Johnson playing minutes. Avery Bradley, I think. Avery Bradley and all kinds of shit. We just, there just wasn't enough talent to go around. There was some bad luck with injuries and stuff like that.

I think the league's loaded now. And even you think about these playoffs where, you know, these teams feel like they're all pretty close to one another, but then you also had Denver who had had a ton of injuries. You had Memphis who loses Jha during the Warriors series. Who knows if it's different, if that doesn't happen. You have the Clippers, they're not even in it. I was talking to a Laker fan about this.

I was just like, whatever you do with Westbrook, it's not going to matter. You guys will never be one of the 10 best teams next year. You might be able to win a series. You might be able to be scary for seven games, but there's too much talent now. You can't just be like, here's LeBron in year 20 and here's Davis. And here's a bunch of role guys. And we're ready to go toe to toe with some of these teams that we're seeing now. Golden State's going to be better next year. You know? And I don't know what's going to happen

with Phoenix, but we know Denver's going to be better. We know Memphis will be better. You go on down the line, it's like the league's just going to be better. Boston's going to be either the same or better. Who knows with Brooklyn? But I think there's probably

nine or 10 teams that have a chance to make the finals next year. We'd never say that. When was the last time? It's usually like three, four, five, maybe. Yeah, right, right. Look, LeBron's eight in a row is an incredible feat and speaks to what a durable player he was and what a smart player he was to get out of the Miami situation in time and start a new situation right as that was falling. But the conference was pretty weak. And a lot of the threats that were popping up when you look back and you think like a team like Brooklyn with Williams and Joe Johnson and old KG and Pierce, like we were thinking that team had a chance to win the East and you put that team

in 2022 and they're like a seventh seed, you know, so I just think it's different now. I think there's too much talent. And by the way, this draft we have, the last draft we had was absolutely loaded, right? The 21 draft, just a shitload of talent. And the 22 draft, looks like that one's going to be really good too. It's just every year there's just talent coming into the league.

And, you know, last year you have Cade, you have Mobley. Those guys have a chance to be in the finals someday. Over and over again, they've been able to reinvent this young pool of talent. So, yeah. Any last Warriors thoughts before we talk about Celtic? I don't think so. I don't... You know, I...

I just can't believe how easy it is to get the rim against these guys. It's just... Hey, we're in trouble. Oh, go to the rim. Bertans is down there. Go find Bertans. Steve Kerr, by the way, three titles with the Bulls.

He won with San Antonio. So he finished his career with four as a player. Five straight finals with Golden State. Wins three. So he's got seven rings. This would be his 10th final trip. It's pretty good. I mean, Riley and Phil Jackson have more, but that's, you're getting double figures of,

oh yeah, I'm either playing or coaching in the finals. Not bad. All right, we're going to talk about Celtic in one sec. Let's take a break. Go yard all summer long with $5 Dinger Tuesdays on FanDuel Sportsbook. This season, all customers will get $5 for every home run hit by both teams

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and I went to game three. It was a really weird game. These late East Coast start games just have a weird vibe the whole time. That game didn't start till like 840 and it just feels like anything can happen. The crowd's sauced up. The body clocks are all weird. And Miami comes out and they immediately turn it into a prison football game. And it worked. And it was really smart. And the Celtics couldn't handle it. And it was one of those things

where it was like, for two minutes they were super physical to see if the refs were going to call it. And they didn't. And then that was it. That became the game. And you could see the Celtics in real time. They're looking around. They're like little kids looking around at the refs, looking at the coach, like what's going on? Bam was the MVP of the game, but PJ Tucker was kind of the spiritual MVP of the game. He was incredible. And he just took Tatum out. That was the worst game I've ever seen Tatum have in person.

And it was just really smart. I don't know if Miami has a better team, but they're tough, they're playoff proven, and they're smart. And they stole that game when Jimmy Butler only played one half. And as a Celtics fan, I'm concerned. So I'm going to start there. Okay, I have a million thoughts, but you were there.

So let's just keep... Maybe I'll just interview you here for a little bit. Yeah, go ahead. You take the Jim take the gym dance reins they played a clip of jalen brown going let's be ready like before the tip they're like they're gonna come out let's punch them first and then it's 20 to 6 yeah you knew it you knew it in 30 seconds my dad and i we just looked at each other and it was you just knew you could feel it okay but the weird thing is they still threw all of that got it to one point in the fourth quarter i felt like the celtics lost it three different times bam and the defense for miami is the story bam was i think over a half a point better points per possession than it was in game two he initiated a ton of the offense but

as you're sitting there feeling like oh okay this is, this is over, but they're coming back. No, it's over. That third quarter is wild. You're still down 15, just like you were at the half. And then you get it to one, Smart comes back, Tatum comes back. What was the roller coaster like in that building? Because the way you're talking now, it's like as if, but it's still ridiculous to think they still had a chance to win that game. Never gave up just because Miami just can go in these funks offensively. And once the Celtics kind of figured out the Bam thing, look, the easiest player prop of all time was Bam over for points in game three because he was just invisible in the first two games and he kills the Celtics. So they fixed it. They put them in space. They were doing different drops of them. The Celtics defensively were screwing it up, and they kept either messing up his rim roll or just messing up allowing him to shoot the 18-footers. So, sudden they were like nine for 27. And my dad, he always like looks at the stats on the range. It's like,

they stopped making shots like two quarters ago. We can get this. But offensively, the Celtics can't dribble certain games. Yesterday was the all time. Like I'm going to be bouncing my grandkids on my lap 40 years from now. I'll be like, grandpa, why didn't the Celtics win the 2022 title? And I'm going to say, we couldn't fucking dribble half the time. They just take games where we just dribble right to, and the ball goes right to the other team. And Miami took advantage of that. They were super physical, a lot of pressure, and they were just kind of diving at Jalen.

I mean, how many, have you ever seen a guy get picked more times in a game where he also had 40 points? That was some sort of bizarre, all over the place, momentous game by him. He made some huge shots. He had, I think, eight turnovers, seven turnovers. There's so many different things that went on in this game. I mean, I could just go on and on, and I know that people are going to look at it as like, well, you were at the game

and we're both Boston guys. But at one point, and this is a really good stat, you're right. Miami started 7-9 for three. Boston started 1-7. So you're like, okay, what the hell is going on? By the way, do you realize at the end of the game, Boston finished 12-32

at over 37% from three. Miami was 11-33, 33%. So you're going, wait a minute, how did that happen? So they were four of their last 24 from three, Miami. The free throw disparity was insane how much it favored Boston. And I would tell you, I felt like Boston was getting every 50-50 call in the second half of this one. You may disagree.

But when you look down and go, wait, it's 15-1 in steals in the third quarter. The points off a turnover differential is like 20 points. So I always point this out. You can look at different things and be like, well, how did this happen if that happened? Well, that means something else probably happened. The turnover situation for this team, some of it is Miami, but it's not all Miami. Jalen Brown can't dribble. Has he always been this bad?

And then he's kind of the, like Tatum was terrible. He had three passes that are completely unacceptable for a regular season game, for anybody that's played more than two years. But Jalen had a stretch in the third where he had five. He tried to split a double, no chance. Oladipo, he handed it off to him like he was a running back twice. He had another time where he was dribbling down the right side and he dribbled into Bam's help and tried to split a double, no chance. Oladipo, he handed it off to him like he was a running back twice.

He had another time where he was dribbling down the right side, and he dribbled into Bam's help and tried to go up. Jalen, I think, has these moments where he drives, where if he has the advantage, you're going, oh, keep driving. But if he doesn't have the advantage and he has to go into traffic, it's almost like he has no chance. And Miami just starts drooling, being like, oh, you're actually going to try to dribble into traffic with us?

See ya. Every time I felt like I looked up every other possession, you're like, I can't believe that's how the possession ended. So I guess you could do a bunch of different versions of smart teams want to go ahead and grab these guys because pride and effort fixes a lot of problems and I think that's what happened in the start of game three I felt like they came out whatever and even the pregame warm-ups and like I whether we win or lose we're gonna be tougher than guys. And that was their whole mindset the whole time. And Tucker was a big piece of it. And, you know, Ben Thompson, Bucks fan, still upset that they let Tucker go. And if you do the research on it, it seems like he wanted to go back to Milwaukee and they kind of insulted him. They said, you know, go out, get an offer and we'll match it instead of just saying

what will it take to bring you back. And I don't know, man. The toughness that he brought to that game yesterday. Dude's 37. He's the fifth oldest guy in the league unless you count Udonis Haslam. Do you know who's older than him?

Millsap, LeBron, Carmelo, and I think CP3. And he didn't look like the fifth oldest guy in the league yesterday and was right in Tatum. All he wanted to do was mess with Tatum. And I'm sure the TV couldn't pick up some of it, but he was like mauling him. I'm telling you, he was mauling him all over the floor and they weren't calling it. So that's what he should do. If you're not going to call this,

I'm going to keep doing it. And it was like a much worse version of what the Celtics did to Durant because they were really physical with Durant. This was different. He was like trying to break Tatum. And I felt like he kind of did. And his biggest mistake was bringing Tatum back with five minutes left after when he hurt his shoulder or three minutes left, whatever that was. He missed, I think, two. I think it was he missed two minutes of game time.

It was pretty short. And then he came back in the final five minutes. But he didn't want the ball when he came back. And he had kind of the deer in the headlights look. And I just don't think he was right. I don't think they should have brought him back. Okay, do you seriously think

that any coach would ever say to Tatum, no, just sit this one out? He wasn't right. He'd been so bad before. You can't tell that player at that level, that kind of stature,

you can't tell him he can't go back in the game. Well, he really hurt them because they were playing four and five with him in the final three minutes. And as you said, there's three different times in this game where it was like, wow, the Celtics are actually going to try to come back here.

The biggest one was, well, the first one was near the end of the first half that all of a sudden go on like a double digit run that goes from like 26 to a pretty manageable 15 or 13, whatever it was. So at halftime, everybody's like, all right, how are we in this game? It was one of those. Then when smart went out, same thing, energy, he's screaming. Everyone's on Twitter trying to see the replay of what

happened. I mean, so the phones have totally changed this stuff. You're just looking and, or you're texting or you're texting somebody who's watching from home. So we all thought he was done because they showed the replay and it looked like he broke his ankle. So when he came back in, it was like a Willis Reed thing. I don't know if that was on the TV, but the place exploded. They went crazy. And then he came in, he hit the three, timeout.

And we're like, all right, we're going to win. And then Miami did it again. Miami was just so fucking tough. Every time they needed to stem the tide, they did it. Last five minutes, they couldn tough. Every time they needed to like kind of stem the tide, they did it. Last five minutes, they couldn't. No Butler, no Hero. They couldn't score.

Celtics scored 12 straight, cut it to one. It looked like Smart stripped Ol' Depot and knocked it off Ol' Depot. They called Miami ball. And then Miami ran that play for Strews. That was a really good play. Did you watch the replay of that play? Yeah.

It was a hell of a shot, too. It was a really good play. Did you watch the replay of that play? Yeah. It was also deep. It was a hell of a shot, too. It was a hell of a shot. They said a double pick for him. Grant chased it. But Strews was like, he had to move and he was like two, three feet behind the line. It was like I had a direct line for him on that shot. So he makes that. Celtics turn it

over, don't even get a shot. And then, bam, just hits a freaking lucky 20-footer. And that was the game. Whereas, end of the shot clock, he has to just chuck it up it goes in um that was when i was like oh my god we lost but the whole vibe was weird the game had like a great energy to it the crowd really wanted to get into it and every time they had a chance was deafening when jalen hit that three to cut it to one it was like game seven last two minutes loud. It was everybody just standing screaming as loud as they possibly could. Fucking Strews just nonplussed, just traded the biggest shot of the game.

People were standing and screaming and it didn't matter. So if I'm Miami, I'm like, wow, we're up 2-1. Boston looks tired. Boston had that long Milwaukee series. And then we go right into this one every other day. And Tatum, I'm not making excuses for him because he's younger than most of the key Miami guys, but he looked worn out yesterday. And now they're still playing every other day.

And if I'm Miami, I'm thinking, we might be able to break these guys. They're better than us, but we might be tougher than them. So that's going to be the challenge. And then Rob not playing was a murder. You know, and there's, it seems like it's a little like the KG 2009, a little in his head thing with the knee soreness where it's like there, because I think he's basically could play if he wanted to. And he, I think he just doesn't trust the knee because he played game two. Then I think he was a pretty late scratch

yesterday, and now it's game to game again. I think he's cleared to play. It's a big difference with Bam because it's just another guy out there. The Tice on off the court stuff is really bad. He was minus 19 in eight minutes in the first half yesterday.

Your guy, Derek White, you want to talk about not wanting to be out there. he was minus 19 and eight minutes in the first half yesterday. Right. And then your guy, Derek White, you want to talk about not wanting to be out there. And I know he just went through the birth of child, so I don't know. But there was a play late in the game, Bill, where it was a rebound, and they were handing it off to White to start transition, and he wasn't ready to dribble.

He kind of traveled, and they didn't call it because it's like a weird spot that no one really calls that travel. He just wasn't really ready and kind of like didn't want the ball and was like, oh, I better dribble he kind of traveled and they didn't call it because it's like a weird spot that no one really calls that travel he just wasn't really ready and kind of like didn't want the ball and was like oh i better dribble and they didn't call it and then he got rid of it and you're like oh wow he played 14 minutes i thought spo did a really good job too like he was great let's they had duncan and hero in at the same time so you're thinking okay attack time uh they went small where they had PJ out there a couple different times. But then they went zone when they had Hero and Duncan out there.

And then they took Duncan out. And then they just kind of abandoned all of it. Duncan, I don't even think, played more than the four minutes. He was terrible. Yeah, he had deer in the headlights. Hero missed everything. And then he only played 20 minutes. And then even though Oladipo isn't really a guy offensively

that you're scared of, I'd say he locked up Jalen. and that's what the stats tell you. I'm sure that ISO possessions, Vic, against Brown would heavily favor Oladipo. Part of it's Oladipo being active and just a better athlete than the other options, but some of it, too, I just cannot understand how Brown can look so good on some drives. But if he has to experiment two plus dribbles, it's tough. We're talking about a guy who basically offensively carried them. The Strew shot was the biggest shot. By the way, too, you're tracking at that point. It's a

one-point game. Two minutes left. Turnover. 96-92. It's 27-9 in points off turnovers, favoring Miami, obviously. A shot clock violation. The Bam shot you talked about, they're up four. Tatum, awful pass. And then smart fouls where they shouldn't have fouled. They're up six. The game was over when Bam made that.

But it wasn't. It felt like it, but it still wasn't. The energy went out. Yeah. Struess, they were attacking him. Anytime they could get Jalen against Struess, he was beating him. And. Struis, they were attacking him anytime they could get Jalen against Struis, he was beating him. And Oladipo,

who I think is in the running for weirdest career of the last 12 years. What other nominees are we talking about? Well, the guy,

he's Birdman? Drafted in Orlando, plays point guard the first year, was not a point guard, has this weird Orlando stretch, ends up in OKC as Westbrook's

sidekick that one year. Nobody has any idea if he's any good. Then gets traded in the Paul George trade. All of a sudden turns into a legitimate star. Star. He had a stretch there. He was unbelievable. Go ahead. He would have said he was one of the best 10, 12 guys in the

league, and it was like, wow, this guy or Zendaya ain't been able to keep him. Could he be going to Miami in two years? Could he be their next guy? And then he gets hurt. He ends up in that stupid Harden trade, goes to Houston. It seems like Houston wants to keep him. And he's in the trade instead of Levert. They could have kept Levert.

Instead, they pick Old Depot and then they basically dump him to Miami and then he gets hurt. And then he was basically benched for most of the season. He didn't play in the first half yesterday. He was a DMP first half. Butler just doesn't come out of the locker room.

We don't know what's going on. And I'm just knowing Butler's history. I'm like, he must have gotten in a fight with somebody in the locker room. How is he not out? Old Depot starting? What's going on? Old Depot plays 20 minutes in the second half. Zero minutes first half, 20 minutes second half. And he's reinvented himself as this like Lindsey Hunter, crazy defensive player who can't shoot. But this was a guy who averaged what, 25 points a game one year? And now he's offensively inept, but is a maniac on defense,

which is kind of what they need. Yeah, when he was right, and he was with the Pacers, that's the peak of him. And I remember, I don't know, first half of that season going, this guy is all NBA running here, and it's not going to be a fluke. He felt like Mitchell, he was in the Mitchell kind of, that kind of player, it felt like. Right? He felt like a potential 24 to 25 point a game guy who could be the best scorer on a good playoff team. But having

Lowry and then having Oladipo and then not having Butler in the second half and still winning that game. But like I said, there's a million different stats that kind of, you're like, well, that doesn't make any sense or that's pretty extreme or that favors one team this way or the other way. It's a lot like the no smart Pritchard moments in game one where you go okay well if smart's back you don't have pritchard initiating your offense you don't have him getting picked and hunted all the time that's

30 minutes of pritchard feeling like he has to do way more that gets replaced by smart and just having oladipo as an option even though i felt the time announcers really want to build it up like hey you know don't forget victor oladipo's coming off the bench. We're like, okay, but what version of it? Because athletically, it hasn't been the same for a long time. These have been pretty significant injuries, but just having it as an option, and then clearly the Lowry part of it too, to pull that off, to blow the lead or however you want to phrase it, to get it down to one, to be on the road in one of the buildings that's never going to give up because you've got older guys that have all the... There's something else with Boston that I don't think I give it enough credit for.

Half of that building is filled with guys that watch games in the 80s that still expect that everything's still going to work out. Right. It's pretty confusing. It's unlike any other city except for probably Los Angeles. Any other city that goes, well, they'll figure this out, and they'll pull it out. When they got it to one and Jalen hit that three,

I go, they're going to win this game? I go, hell, if they stop handing the ball off every other possession, they can win this game. It would have been a horrific loss for Miami. All-time. All-time loss, but also like an all-time win now, which makes you question things because to win that without Butler, because everybody makes a run. Anyone

that's good makes a run. I can argue all sorts of angles on this one. I can say there's no way Boston's going to win that without butler because everybody makes for anyone that's good makes a run i can argue all sorts of angles on this one i can say there's no way boss is going to do that again look at tatum's history in game five when they lost to the bucks he was two for 11 he ended up with a ton of points because he excuse me two to 11 from three he took 29 shots he was inefficient didn't feel like a great game comes back plays one of the greatest games he's ever going to play with 46 in game six does tatum do like we saw in the beginning of that Milwaukee series? Like, wait, Wesley Matthews is going to own you in game one? You're 6-18 in game one? And then guess what? Tatum responded.

So, you know, we keep updating who Tatum is legacy-wise probably far too often. But the other part of this series that's worth pointing out, which could also be interesting and slightly irrelevant, Boston's only lost two of the 12 quarters, and they're down 2-1, and there's a chance they're going to lose this. and they're down 2-1 and there's a chance they're going to lose this.

Like, it's, even though I think Boston is better and there's no Rob, I don't, like, it doesn't feel like this,

oh my, it's not Dallas getting past Phoenix if Miami beats Boston. You know what it felt like? You'll appreciate this. Remember that, that 2002 to 2004 stretch

where the Celtics played in some of the most brutal games that have ever happened. What was that one game? It was like 67-66 was the final against Detroit. Where it was just rugby crossed with football, crossed with a rock fight. And just super duper duper duper physical. And it got so physical that they ended up changing the rules. It feels like that physicality is back this year in some of these games. And you can really muck it up. The difference is everybody's taking way more threes now. So the scores can still get into the hundreds because of

the threes. I think the shot making is probably better than it was in the early 2000s. There's more talent. But man, I'm telling you it was as physical as that game five I went to against Milwaukee and that game I went to yesterday. As physical as I've seen other than finals games when game seven, 2010, where they're just like, we're not calling

really anything. Really physical. And that's, I think, a real advantage for Miami. Because that's a physical team. They're not really that skilled offensively. The Celtics will figure out the band thing,

so now it's going to be more on Lowry and more on whatever they get from Butler. And the chemistry's a little weird with them, too. Like, the fact that I didn't know what happened

at halftime with Butler, I think that got, like, just my instinct was that he must have gotten in, like, an altercation with Udonis Haslam over that he was hurt. You know, it's just been a really weird season for them. And yet somehow

they're six wins away from the title. I'm going to say it again one more time with P.J. Tucker and guys like that. I think when a smart team like Miami goes, hey, we want, no, we want P.J. Tucker. We should all give them more of the benefit of the doubt than the times where it looks like PJ,

you're like, can this guy really make a shot? Yeah, he kind of can. I mean, Tice, as bad as it's been on the plus minus, I thought there were some times where it was just really hard for him to try to help and then chase a guy like PJ Tucker back to the corner or get caught in some sort of switch where he challenged hero.

He's better at sliding around the court than I think he used to be. I found Houston, he just stood in the corner. He needs some fighters, man. Miami uses him in a much more fun way. He's setting picks and jumping off. He's just a little more involved. Yeah, so when you think PJ, Bam, Butler, Lowry, Spoh,

we all, non-Heat fans, roll their eyes constantly about Heat culture, but there's something to be said about a team full of fighters. And I think that's exactly what we saw in Game 2, but at the same time, I'm not going to be shocked if Boston puts it on them in Game 4 and we're sitting here 2-2 wondering how this thing's going to end.

And the Celtics, I think, I'm not saying they're not a tough team because I think they've been really tough and really resilient, and that win in Milwaukee Game 6 proved their toughness to me. I think last night they seemed a little tired and they seemed unprepared for just how physical Miami is going to be. And they'll be more prepared in game four. It's interesting though, Smart limps back in. He wasn't coming out, right? And then Tatum, same thing, has a stinger and comes out. And then Rob, who didn't play and then wasn't on the bench either. He was

at the bench in the games where he was hurt. Part of me felt like, were those guys trying to tell him, look at us, we're out here. You're not. You're a big bench positioning guy, I've noticed, this playoffs. He wasn't on there. Butler never

came out for the second half. He never even sat on the bench second half. Even with Butler's history, you thought maybe he went AWOL in game three of a playoff series in the Eastern Conference Finals? I, he just didn't come out. Like what? I didn't know what to think. He played the whole first half. Didn't seem like he was hurt. I watched the first half. I was there. He seemed fine. And then he just was never seen again. So I was like, hmm. Quickly on P.J. Tucker. I was doing some P.J. Tucker research today

because somebody had to do it. 35th pick in 2006. Played two-thirds of a season in Toronto and was waived so they could create a roster spot for Luke Jackson. Luke Jackson, if he'd ever stayed healthy. Spends five years in Israel, Ukraine, Greece, Italy, Germany.

Won the Israeli MVP in 2008 and the finals MVP. Won the Germany finals MVP in 2012. Comes back four and a half years in Phoenix. Kind of reinvents himself as a role player. Guess who notices? The smart teams. Toronto trades for him at the trade deadline. Gives up nothing. Two seconds. He plays on the 2017 team that Cleveland waxed. Darryl signs him, summer 2017. His playoff numbers, here are his splits in 18 and 19. 48-47-67 and 48-46-83. He was really good, at least for what he was supposed to be doing those two years, playing 38.7 minutes a

game in 2019. In game seven, 2018, he went two for five from three. Everyone else went five for 39. 2020 bubble they lose. Goes to Milwaukee in the playoffs last year and kind of looked like he was on his way out. Remember we were talking about him? This guy's kind of washed. 32% from three, 38% overall. Played 30 minutes a game for them. Averaged like

a four and five in the playoffs. It seemed like he was on his way out. He seems like this is the best we've seen in like four years from him, right? He's 37. He's still going. I liked him in Phoenix. I'm telling you.

I know he told JJ Redick that story about how when he was with Toronto at the end of the season, they sat him down and showed him video of his body language on the bench and he was just the worst. And I think he plays like a guy, if he's in your friend group

and he'd have arguments where, like if you were arguing, like, hey, Wolverine could kill the Hulk. And he'd be like absolutely not you get so mad he would have to go outside and smoke a cigarette for like 30 minutes like one of those friends settle down dude yeah where's bob bob's outside he just kicked over a garbage can but there's some real value in having that kind of guy because i remember you and i talking about him year, and I thought it was a really good point that you made. You go, you know, PJ's brought in to be this Durant stopper, and Durant's getting like 45 a game. So what is he actually doing?

And you don't really feel like you have to defend him on offense. But, you know, the metrics, I think, for the playoffs would tell you that PJ, it's not, the numbers aren't nearly as impactful as somebody like that that would rather die than lose. And you need a couple guys like that. alpha man he yeah the way he cares there's some good youtube clips of him just getting in arguments with people remember he punched blake that time him and blake were on the floor and he they end up tangled up and he just just kind of gave him a quick one right quick

him getting pissed at grant i enjoy as much as anything going on in this series. Oh, yeah. Because Grant is not the only one that does it. Lowry does it. Chris Paul does it. And I hate everyone that does it. The run to grab the ball out of the opponent's hands who's still holding it after the turnover.

When, by the way, the ball still has to be checked by the ref. And the ref's not going to give it to you in that. He's not going to let you run as fast as you want to. So everybody does this thing to be a shithead as if it's some sort of advantage. And it's never an advantage because even when you get it back, the ref has to check it for you. So you never go as quick as, and I think everybody knows this and PJ getting mad at Grant about it actually makes me laugh. So there you go. Let's take a break because I have some Grant Williams material for you. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at

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host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember. All right, so that was my fourth playoff game with the Celtics that I've been to.

Yeah, what's your record right now? Oh, it's tough. You know, I blame myself because the last two games, I bought a Coke. I never drink Coke, but I just wanted the caffeine. And we're 0-2, so I'm not doing that again. So I feel a little responsible. I never drink Coke, but I just wanted the caffeine and we're O and two. So I'm not doing that again. So I feel a little responsible. I never drink Coke and I just act like you've been there before Simmons. That's what I was telling myself. Are you on the fence about going to game four?

No, I'm going, I'm going. Yeah. My dad, you know, my dad has said seats for 49 years. So seats are unbelievable or on the aisle. We're right behind the bench, even with the three-point line. So EMI is right in front of us. That's where he stands. If you gave me 100 to 1 odds that he's going to punch Grant over the next five years during a game, I would take them. And I might even take them at 75 to 1. Grant is so annoying. My dad,

who never gets annoyed by anybody, was like, God, why is he so annoying? He's just like the little hyperactive fourth grader in class who's just scampering around. There was one point, he was on the bench. He wasn't even playing. And Marcus Smart came over to talk to Imez in the first half about defensive stuff. And Grant Smart came over to talk to Imez in the first half about defensive stuff. And Grant just comes over and joins the conversation and is telling Marcus what to do. And both of them just kind of turned and they were like, what the fuck are you doing here? You're not even in the game. You have a towel on.

I just think that's the energy he brings, which is also amazingly helpful when you're a basketball player. But he is, I think he's replaced Blake as the most annoyed, the most, the guy who annoys everyone else the most in the league, I think is Grant. Like my PJ Tucker is definitely going to get a flagrant on him at some point during the series. He's had enough already three games. He's like, I'm done with this guy. Bam's annoyed by him. Um, he's just, he's talking. I think he thinks he's the leader of the team, which maybe he is to some degree, but he's also, what is he? 23 years old, I think he thinks he's the leader of the team, which maybe he is

to some degree, but he's also, what is he? 23 years old, 24 years old. I don't think the rest of the team thinks he's the leader of the team is my problem. I love it. This is by the way, I'm not slamming him, but just like, sometimes you need guys like this on your team, you know? And, and he is just this high energy. Just he's always going, he's wound up. I've already said enough grants. I did my grant thing last week so i'm just gonna stop because i i respect the hell out of who he is and who he's become as a player nice job against bam he does he gets i think that's the thing with bam is you got to be in onto him immediately like you have to be in on him you know and i think that'll be a small little thing you know it's not like i'm some brilliant adjustment guy here, but you go, hey, be ready for the Bam stuff.

Maybe Bam rope-a-doped you a little bit. Maybe Kyle's better at getting Bam in better position. That's, I think, one of the great assets of having a Kyle Lowry is that he's okay letting other guys eat for long stretches, but he also knows when they need a shot in something easy, Lowry's good enough to get you something. I don't know if that's what made Bam better. I don't know if it was Bam. No, you know what? There's one other thing. And Bob Valgares tipped me off to this because when it came out, Kyle was playing. He really pushed the pace in that

first quarter. Yeah. They're a little like the Celtics. As soon as they slow down, I think it's a lot harder for them to score. That first quarter, especially, Kyle was really going. By the way, I wouldn't say he's in phenomenal shape these days. I thought he was. I don't know what comes across on TV, but he's as chunky as I think I've ever seen him. He was still pushing the pace,

and he stayed in shape the whole game. There is nothing better. I'll never understand why anyone would want to play basketball any differently. Push for advantages. If it's not there, come back out. Then you can run your half court. To wait to run your half court when you have a chance to push. And I do think that's a real skill. Can you text him? Text Eric White right now and just tell him. That was Emae's big... Emae made two mistakes. And one, I think you're right. It would have been weird to just not play Tatum if Tatum could go out there, but Tatum just wasn't right. He buried Pritchard in the second half.

And I thought Pritchard, if you're making a list of guys who weren't afraid to be in that game yesterday, Pritchard is on that list. He was ready to go. He was barking with Harrow. I think he's been effective in this series and I just would have played him overweight. I think they were worried about him getting hunted on the other end but once Butler was out of there, who were they going to hunt Pritchard with? If anything that should have meant he should have played more. I didn't love that.

The schedule thing I do think it's crazy that they do it this way. This every other day thing for both teams. I'm surprised. I think it's I think we do it this way. This every other day thing. For both teams. I'm surprised. I think it's... I think we could, by... If this series goes

seven, by the time we get to the seven game, I think both of these teams could be luggage. Celtics played Friday night. They played 3.30 Sunday. They played Tuesday, Thursday in Miami. They played last night. They're playing Monday. The heat went six against the Sixers, but I just don't understand why they don't have a couple off days in there just for the quality of the product. I know they're trying to of it and then how stern would stagger it sometimes where he was like i want thursday saturday sundays you know and you'd

be like wait how many days are off and some of these remember how much time off oh yeah in some of those series these games are too physical i i'm like continue to be just shocked by how physical and intense these games are for four quarters now you know in the old the old days, you could watch, go on YouTube, watch anything from the 70s and 80s. It really got intense maybe the last quarter. But for the most part, it wasn't like that. The guys are just getting leveled. The Celtics had,

I mean, we had three guys got hurt in the game yesterday. Smart, Tatum, Butler. And Hero, I guess, got hurt too. Four guys got hurt yesterday. I don't know if it's an accident. I noticed when I said I felt like the Celtics got every 50-50 call in the second half that you didn't emphatically agree.

I didn't. Normally, I would admit, people are going to laugh, but I really would. I was like, man, we're getting calls too. But I thought Miami, I thought everybody on their team could have fouled out

the way, the way they were doing. And also, you know, on offense, they were taking a lot of shots and a lot, a lot of outside shots. They were taking threes.

They were taking like foul line jumpers. There's a lot of ISO stuff with Bam. And I just didn't feel like they were initiating contact offensively in that way. Because Butler, they also didn't have the Butler piece. Butler's usually what?

10 to 15 free throws a game. And he didn't play second half. Honestly, I thought even in the first half when Butler was playing, I noticed a better awareness of like, hey, don't go up with this guy. Stay home a little bit more. Because he's just very good at it. But I'll back you up on the Milwaukee thing. Because when my father left game five and he called me, he goes, I can't believe how physical that game was. He goes, I was exhausted watching it. So there is something to this. It is.

And there's another part of it, and I don't know. You know, I don't think it's this series. I don't think it's just Boston-Milwaukee. The chaos, the bodies around the rim when the ball is up in the air, if you watch that, if you spend time watching, it's like four guys being ejected from a car at the end of some of these possessions.

And then you're just like, whoever's left up will just start going the other way. And I don't know how you could ever call that because everybody being the bonus three minutes into the quarter. How about when Tatum was down, the Celtics somehow got to stop, bring it back down. Tatum's still lying on the quarter. How about when Tatum was down, the Celtics somehow got to stop, bring it back down.

Tatum's still lying on the ground and Grant shoots a three. It's like, oh, there's my teammate. I'm going to shoot a three anyway. Yeah, at one point, I looked at the box score on my phone because I was like, what are the fouls? It feels like Miami should have more fouls.

And I looked and we had a 27 to five free throw advantage. Yes. It did not feel that way in the room. I? It feels like Miami should have more fouls. And I looked and we had a 27 to five free throw advantage. Yes. It did not feel that way in the room. I think it evened out a little more after that. Another weird thing about the game, and this ties into what was happening with Dallas and them getting fined,

but the Heat are wearing their white warmup tops on the side. They're all standing, but the Suns were in their white uniforms. And this is like this new thing I think teams are doing. You know, you look at what Dallas got fined for, where two of their guys just had white outfits that weren't playing. And Curry in game one or game two, he threw the ball to one of the guys

who had his hand up wearing white, but was a bystander. So it's like teams are definitely, I'll be interested to see if Stern would have hated this. He would have lost his mind. He would have fined them a million dollars for game two. This is a whole topic that we could do. And Curry is fully capable of throwing it to nobody on any possession, to be fair to our boy Steph.

But what is to happen with the ends of these benches? That's going to be the worst seat in sports. I remember the old days back when Fenway would have the obstructed view chair, or one chair in front of a massive support beam, and some guy would show up who thought, like,

hey, I'm just going to buy a single ticket and watch some O's socks here on a Sunday afternoon. And he'd have a two-foot iron beam right in his face. And he'd be sitting there double fisting Bud Light's going, what the fuck? You know what I mean? Like he's the guy leading past the post. Right.

You're bobbing and weaving just to see pitches. To have a seat now in an NBA arena in that lower corner by the tunnel, I don't know what the point of having that seat is now because now if you're not standing up, if you're not standing up at the end of the bench, then something's wrong with your team's energy because I'm sure there'll be some people listening, whether it's coaches or

players or whatever, going, no, I love it. You know what I think? Hey, we watched decades of basketball where seven guys didn't have to do a routine down the baseline or step out onto the court or wave at guys on short corner threes or wave towels or argue with everybody the whole time. Like other teams did win championships without that level of energy. So I'm going to sound like an old guy by saying, is this actually kind of shitty? Because there's so many times now in a game where I'm like, I can't believe what's going on at the end of the bench.

And it's just kind of accepted. And you're right. Stern would have seen this for a month and it would have never happened again because it's obstructing so many views too. Right. And Miami, you know, it's almost like when, if you have to shoot a three from that side of the corner,

it's like the lion's den. You got 10 guys standing up like an inch behind you. You know i i think the nazis almost won six man of the year and he didn't play he was he was intimidating he really was he had like real energy as a bench guy i was impressed haral bob mentioned something about this on thursday about how miami's it's kind of incredible that they have a chance to be in two finals in three years with some of the mistakes they've made. When you think like Justice Winslow at 10,

Nick could have traded that pick for multiple firsts, but then he just didn't, that was a big swing for them, right? To get like their next foundational guy. And he didn't, it's even hard to call it a mistake because everybody liked the pick, but it just didn't pan out. Whiteside, all the money they gave to him. And so I was looking back and I was trying to think like, how do they put this team together? So the Dragic trade, they gave up the two firsts, right? And they get all that Dragic time and then they're able to flip that contract into Lowry. But that was supposed to be in the Jimmy Butler trade. Remember? Dragic.

And then because Miami, they're geniuses with this stuff, they ended up sticking Whiteside on Portland. Not only did they get out of what was just a horrible contract, but they were able to get Jimmy Butler out of that trade. And they also needed the part where Philly had to fuck that up and spend money on Al Horford over Jimmy. So it's like these three things had to happen just for them to have any chance to get Jimmy. The Tyler Hero thing was a coin flip, 13 or 14 with them in Boston, remember? Boston lost. They get Romeo Lankford.

Miami gets Hero. Bam falls to number 14 in the Donovan Mitchell draft. And if you look at that draft, it goes off a fucking cliff after that pick. But what's interesting is that was the year they got rid of Wade and then he came or they got him back from the Bulls. Right? And James Johnson, it was like kind of a feel good Miami team.

James Johnson had like this resurgence and they almost made the playoffs. They tied the Bulls 41-41 each and the Bulls had the tiebreaker, made the playoffs. Miami missed the playoffs, got 14 and they ended up getting Bam. And if you look at that draft, Bam's 14. The next picks are Justin Jackson, Justin Patton, DJ Wilson, TJ Leaf, John Collins, Harry Giles, Terrence Ferguson. So just these three random events. And then the old Depot thing, Houston dumps them. They get Tucker because Milwaukee didn't want to pay him.

They're like the scavengers of the NBA. Just over, oh, you're going to make this mistake? We'll do that. Oh, we have a chance to get lucky here? We'll get lucky. And they've just reinvented themselves. It's kind of crazy

because you think like Bosh, LeBron, and Wade, that was done in 2014. And then Bosh, they had the worst luck with that contract. You know, Wade got old. LeBron left. It's just, like, kind of inconceivable that they're back with nobody from that era.

Yeah, the white side one's crazy because they threw all that money at him when everybody's like, I know what the metrics are, but does anyone think this? They're like, look at his PR. Right. And then Spoh was sitting there, which I always think is interesting when they're like, hey at his PR. Right, and then Spoh is sitting there, which I always think is interesting when they're like, hey, the media shouldn't vote for any of this stuff, which I don't know that necessarily

any of us are saying, please don't do that, but when it's like maybe the players should be involved or it should be some sort of stat, and you're like, so Whiteside's eligible for more extensions if we did some, and I know people don't love PR,

especially with big guys and all that stuff, but Spoh's at the point where he's going to max center who he doesn't want to play at the close of games because he can't trust him. Because he gets blocks because he freelances and doesn't do the rest of the stuff that he's supposed to do. And they also took back Myers Leonard money in that deal, which was $11, $12 million or something like that. I think Miami does the best job of any team in the NBA in the gray areas of roster building. And they convinced Philly to trade them Jimmy Butler

when they didn't have to. And they built up Richardson as an asset the year before. And Philly kind of talked themselves into it. And they're like, well, if we have Al Horford and Josh Richardson, that's better than Jimmy Butler. That was the choice they made.

But if Philly says, no, fuck you, we're not helping you, how does Jimmy Butler get to Miami? They were over the cap. Quick game of Hall of Famer, yes or no? I'm going to say yes to everybody

because everyone gets in, by the way. Jimmy Butler, assuming the next couple years of his career go a certain way, yes? He'll get in.

I actually think the media really likes Jimmy Butler. Horford? Get the four years in college Two or three years Get the two back to back You're not going to find many bigger Horford fans than me But I mean come on

You say no for that? No He's going to probably get in because everybody gets in But I mean can't we have I have a very outdated Hall of Fame thing. And that is like at some moment, I wanted to feel like you were one of the best players of your era. And I love Al Horford.

I thought he was awesome in Atlanta. Yeah. And superstar, like sustained superstar stuff. Yeah, but that's what's happened in the Hall of Fame. You see the guys that are getting in now. He's going to get in. That's why, yeah, that's why I say everybody's going to get in. By the way, I forget his international resume.

Does he have something? Does he get a bronze somewhere in the CONCACAF or something? Because that's a lot. Clay? He's in. Yeah, he's in. Wiggins? What if Wiggins gets to 20,000 points?

Wiggins might get 20,000 points. But that's the point. It's like, okay, here are the stats. And by the way, the cumulative stats for this generation is just beyond the earlier generations because guys are coming in so much earlier. So some of this LeBron MJ stuff, depending on how you feel about it,

it's like, oh, well, look what he did by this point or whatever. And you're like, I'd rather have three extra seasons from 19 to 22 than three extra seasons from 38 to 41. You know? So some of the CUME stats, it's like the Dwight stuff. Like Dwight, of course, is going to get in. I'm not saying he's not going to. But some of the CUME stats, you're like, wait, that's who that guy was?

Wiggins is a no. He has to always be. I mean, give me a fucking break. At what point were you? Is Antoine Jamison a yes for you? Nice player. Not a Hall of Famer. I think he's going to get in.

And I think Wiggins is going to get in too because everyone's going to get in. They want to put in like 10 guys a year. The Wiggins wanted... I'm going to... There's been a few where I've gone, hey, I give up. That guy's getting in.

Wiggins? Has he ever made All-NBA anything? No. Yeah. Listen, you're preaching the choir. I think it would be absurd if Wiggins got in. I'd ask you this. Here's a simple Hall of Fame question.

How many seasons did you have where I was disappointed? How many seasons did you have where I was psyched about what you did? If it's one season versus like 12 disappointing ones, that to me is kind of like not a Hall of Famer. Sorry to be rude about it. How many career points do you think he has? Wiggins? Yeah. He's been in the league. He's one, two,

three, four, five. I don't know. Eleven five? Ninth season. Wow. You got that exactly. Eleven thousand five hundred nineteen. Holy shit. I didn't look it up. He might get in. I think anyone who gets twenty thousand points is probably getting in the Hall of Fame. You know what we should do? We should then move it up. He might get in. I think anyone who gets 20,000 points

is probably getting into the Hall of Fame. You know what we should do? We should then move it up. Move it to the 25,000 point club? Is anyone listening to this podcast right now in the car mad that I'm like, come on, Andrew Wiggins? I'd like to meet that guy.

Hell, we'll book you Tuesday or Thursday. We have slots open. Bam has a chance. Okay, we'll book you Tuesday or Thursday. We have slots open. Bam has a chance. Okay, but Bam, I have, like if Miami does something here, it's two NBA finals

and he's, you know, Butler's the dynamic one. He's got some all-NBA stuff. But Bam's the guy. Think how many more like at least third team NBA,

like he might be the third best big in the NBA. Like if I had a Bam discussion 10 years removed from the peak of his career, I can sell you on BAM. Now, there's still a ton of work to do.

It's way too early, but BAM is on the trajectory of what we would see as a modern big on top of how great defensively he was. That guy controlled the game without having to be some primary ball handling score. He was awesome in game three. I love that guy. I think he has a chance. Draymond, I think, will get in assuming he doesn't go off a cliff.

Tatum and Jalen are in a good pace. I can't believe Jalen has a chance to get 20,000 points playing multiple Final Fours, Finals, whatever. Luka, obviously. Spoh. Kerr.

Locke. Curry. My point is there's a lot of famous people in this Final Four. We didn't even talk about Poole or Kaminga. I mean, Luka, he would probably have to retire for some crazy reason over the next four years. He could probably

get in by the time he's 27. Just a lot of player subplots. I've enjoyed everything about this Final Four. Even this weird Dallas Golden State series, which we were taping this before we know what happened in Game 3, but that Game 2 was really fun to watch. Brunson and Luka had 73 points combined.

What about Miritich? Just won MVP? Miritic? Yeah, I don't... Oh, you mean Jokic? No, Nikola Miritic. He just won the EuroLeague MVP. Put up some points with Chicago. Now he's got the international part of the resume.

Miritic won the EuroLeague MVP? Oh, yeah. I wasn't aware. Why? There should be a Twitter account that tells us stuff like this. Because I saw Shane Larkin won. He won one of those titles, too. Some team that was led by Shane Larkin and somebody else I like.

I was like, not going to lie. Yeah, right there with you. Always kind of like Shane Larkin. Yeah. Well, she was in the Celtics series. Let's take another break and I have two more things for you. Business with up to 55 interest-free days and the ability to reach further with access to over 1,400 airport lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum. That's the powerful backing of American Express.

Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. All right, mid-season tournament really quickly. For this to work, I would assume it's five games total. The top two teams get buys in each conference. 14 first-round games, eight second round, four third round, two semifinal games, and a final game. So it could be five games total.

And everyone, Silver seems like he's pretty bullish on it because I think there's some money at stake. And they're talking about they'll cut back to 78 games or 76, and they'll do it this way. And people are asking, well, what's the incentive for the players? Wow, this makes sense. I brought this up before. I think the first two rounds,

I think the way they should do it is they should count as wins for the actual season, but it should be like super wins. So the first two rounds, you get just one win. If you win a round three game, it's worth two wins. If you win a round, if you win a semifinal game, that's worth two wins. And if you win the final, that's worth four. So potentially you can go one, one, two, two-4, you could win five games that would actually count as nine wins.

So if you're a team like the Lakers, you go 36-36, but you actually won this tournament, your record is 45-36. I'm saying if it was a 72-game schedule.

I think that's how they're going to do it. I think they're going to weigh the games so that as it goes up, it'll be like a super game. And maybe it won't be as dramatic as four wins.

Maybe they'll make it like the finals are worth three, whatever. But what do you think of that idea? Okay. Well, my overall statement on all this stuff is that it's unnecessary, but it's extra product, which is revenue.

So it's all happening. The gimmicky levels that we're going to see in the next decade in pro sports is like, you know, don't black, don't black Friday NFL friday nfl game for no reason don't tell your grandparents about what's about to happen uh so i'm open to it because i know what's going to happen and all that kind of stuff but when i think about the

soccer template of it like the soccer stuff is always cool because you're experiencing competition that you wouldn't normally experience yeah and yet in the nba version of it like when i i don't i don't follow soccer but when i when i dip my toes into some of the stuff that they have it's awesome yeah but i feel like it's a whole new level of things that are on the line that are a little bit more rare and to say now it's this special new in-season tournament that we have where hey buckle up we got we got-Bulls round one. It's just packaging something that's,

I mean, it's just a different name for the same package, isn't it? Yeah, you would think, like, if they were playing European teams in this cup or something, and it was like the best eight teams and the wins counted. The incentivization thing is what they're going to have to figure out, not just how do you get the guys to care about these games, how do you get them to play in them, The incentivization thing is what they're going to have to figure out. Not just how do you get the guys to care about these games? How do you get them to play in them? I think you have to incentivize them.

That will help them during the season, right? You can ask for two extra trades during your contract. Yeah. You think James Harden's going to be fired up for a midseason tournament unless either the players make more money or what i already know what's going to happen and it doesn't mean the guys are right but i mean no one likes change no one likes change at work i mean it's 101 the employer employee relationship is the employer decides something to do and the employees sit around the water cooler talking about how every dump ever like everyone in management's the dumbest person ever so when this happens, and I don't know how much more LeBron we're going to have, but

as soon as it happens, LeBron will send out a tweet and be like, you know, I hate this damn mid-season tournament. Facts. And I won't even know if those guys are right or wrong, but that's what will happen. And no offense, but we've never had an era where the players have kind of cared less about playing. Right? I mean, we've never had an era where the players have kind of cared less about playing. Right. I mean, we've never had anything close to this. So that, so this ties into my whole idea. If it's a 72 game season. So 72. Okay. So 72 games. I vote for seven. This is, they won't do this because they'll never go lower than I don't think 78 or 76. Why would they? Because they're

fucking greedy. No, no. I'm telling you. When everybody bitches about baseball, I go, why do you think the owners would be like, let's lose 40 extra nights of regional product? It's not happening. This is in the perfect world. 72-game schedule with the midseason turning. I would have the winner gets the 17th pick. Loser gets the 32nd pick.

And we had the 32 pick first round. All right. A little bonus picks. Winner gets a $7 million luxury tax bump. Wow. Loser gets a $2 million luxury tax bump. So now there's a little bit of team incentive, right? This actually helps us competitively if we win this.

If you did this 72 game schedule, you play everyone twice, and then you play your conference the third time. Every other year, you'd have the home game. And here's the other thing. And Silver mentioned this in one of the interviews he did last week. So Silver was doing an interview, and he mentioned something that I thought was an awesome idea about minimum game kind of limits for who qualifies for awards. I was like, now you're talking my language.

Loved it. I don't know what the limits would be. I was trying to look at it, right? Because Bam missed 26 games. That's why I didn't vote him for defensive player of the year. He missed one third of the season. Which, by the way,

sorry to interrupt, but can the announcers one time when they bring up how upset Bam is about not winning defensive player of the year just point out that he missed too many games? I would have voted him number one. But there's also another weird development, and I don't know if it's the personal trainers for these guys working them up. So now they think the world hates all of them when they don't get their way with the postseason awards, which may be part of it. But a lot of times the simple answer why the guy didn't win the award, and granted, there's different arguments for a lot of this stuff. But this outrage of everyone hates me now the guy didn't win the award, and granted, there's different arguments for a lot of this stuff, but this outrage of everyone hates me now.

I didn't get the award. A lot of times there's a pretty easy explanation. Anyway, aside, sorry I interrupted. Had to get that out. No, I'm with you. So let's say we have no mid-season tournament. It's just an 82-game schedule again. Did the minimum.

I would make the minimum 60 games. And maybe you could do the minutes too. Maybe it's 2,000 minutes minimum 60 games and maybe you could do the minutes too maybe it's 2000 minutes or 60 games something like that like LeBron played 56 games

but he played 2000 minutes the reason the game thing scares me is because teams could basically put a guy in for a minute to get him to the 60 game

or you know they could mess with that but you can't mess with minutes the minutes are I think a truer indicator of that but if you had the 72 game minutes. The minutes are, I think, a truer indicator of that. But if you had the 72-game schedule with the mid-season tournament, maybe it's a 2,000 minute minimum to be eligible for the awards. These are all easy fixes to me that would just make the product better. To me, the 72-game thing, the owners are super greedy. And by the way,

if you're not making enough money, sell your team. There's a million people lined up ready to buy a team. There's a reason we've only seen a couple teams move in the last couple of years because these things are cash cows. They are. And with the media money that's coming in, there'll be even more cash cows. So we could make the product better with the 72 games. And I think there would be more unpredictability with the regular season. The buys, I mean, the seeds will be a little different. You know, if somebody loses

John Morant for 20 games and you only have 72, Memphis is going to have a harder time to make the playoffs. Like, it's just the whole season will be better

if it's less games. Anyway, that's my rant. No, I like some of that. And I mean, it's pretty extreme. I don't know if they

want to add all of these little incentives in there that people would have to kind of pay attention to. And maybe people enjoy this stuff and that it's more complicated. I don't know if they want to add all of these little incentives in there that people would have to kind of pay attention to. And maybe people enjoy this stuff and that it's more complicated. I just think that some of the stuff that we see from soccer, which I know has kind of been something that Silver's touched on in the past. And like, by the way, I know, just so everybody understands when we're talking, like, I know I, the league would do it. I know I, Silver would do it. It's like an extra product. And then you get to say it's something else,

right? I know what'll happen. Like the players, no matter what, even if it's awesome in the beginning, the player is going to be like, this is stupid. I'm just saying. It's weird because I agree with you, what you're saying about the players at the same time. I don't think the game has ever been harder to play and more physical. And I've, I haven't been this impressed by the competitive spirit that I've seen in these playoff games. It really takes me back to like the 80s and 90s.

These guys really gave a shit every game. They're going all out. And it kind of makes sense to me why they don't fight the regular season as much anymore because the physicality

in these playoff games is absolutely sick. Anyway, last subject, DeAndre Ayton trades. I think this is going to be kind of a thing we've been talking about on this podcast really since they didn't extend him. I do not think he's going to be a son next year. First question, I identified eight teams that I think would trade for him. First question for you, do you think he's worth a top 10 pick if you know

that as part of the deal, you then have to pay DeAndre Ayton like $30 million a year? Because Bill Duffy, I think, is his agent. And he's already said he's not taking a dollar less. He's getting a max deal. Well, Duffy wasn't going to say anything else. He probably has indicators out there. Well, he probably has indicators out there like, hey, we're going to max out Ayton. So if you're Indiana with number six, or you are Detroit with number five, or you're San Antonio with number nine, would you give up that pick to pay DeAndre Aiton $30 million a year for the next four years? How do you feel about that? It's not an easy easy answer because one part of me is like hey look at

the history just the top 10 picks recently and you've got flame outs all over the place so why not go ahead and sign jandre and you can say well wait a minute do i really want to give this guy four years and 131 million he's not perfect but there's a lot of max guys that aren't perfect so at least this way if you were detroit you would say you're building something i think there's also an argument against it you're like well wait a. Why would I want to go ahead and move a pick this high and change the timeline of events here with Cade? It's like, well, wait a minute. We're talking about Aiton here.

We're not talking about somebody who's like 29. So bring in Aiton and Cade and what else, what other pieces do you think you have with Sadiq or killing maybe, I don't know. I mean, he's one of the best 40 players in the league. Yeah, so I'd probably be more inclined to do it from pick four on. But I also think there'd be GMs that would go, that's nuts. He's not a primary offensive option.

He comes off as just like, it's probably the wrong time to be talking about Aiton right now. But that's where I think that, you know, I kind of always like my approach that in the moment we're not very good. I still would want DeAndre Aiton on my basketball team, understanding his flaws and some limitations. And so I think a lot of GMs would go, wait a minute, I still want to have, I'd rather, instead of giving him four years 130, which is what a new team can give him, instead of the four 137 or five 177 that Phoenix could give him, I'd say, well, no, no, no.

I'll just take the rookie, have him on the rookie scale, and I'm a GM, and I'm so smart. I'm really good at drafting. But I'd look at the track record and kind of lean towards, like you said, he's top 40. When it's going better, he's better than that, and he's really young, and I have him here for four years. If it doesn't work out, we can trade anybody in this league,

and maybe I'm pairing him. Maybe I'm speeding up the process for a Cade Cunningham instead of, hey, here's another rookie. I also think, never underestimate. It's kind of like the quarterback transaction thing. There are times teams bring in a quarterback and you're like, oh, are you really excited about that guy? Well, tell me who you've been at the position for five or seven years. The Kirk Cousins corollary. Right. So if you've been an NBA team

for a bunch of years here where there hasn't really been anything that's all that exciting and you're adding eight and at his age and you're going, whatever, four years, it's still a coin toss

with some of the draft picks the further on you get down. I'd probably lean towards doing it, but I think that this conversation would have seemed like a layup 12 months ago, where now there's more questions, which tells me that maybe now is not the time to do it because a year ago, I don't even think we would debate this stuff. And I still think he's young enough

to have that feeling that we had in 2021 about him. Well, two other pieces here. One is Phoenix is 129 million before they deal with Aiton next year. Caps going to be $122. They'll be in the luxury tax. They have Booker making $34 next year and $36 the year after. They have Bridges at $21, $22, $23, $25. They have CP3 at $28.4 next year, $30.8 the year after that. They're paying Crowder, Sarge, Payne, and Schammett a combined like $35 million. Yeah, that's a lot. They have Cam Johnson coming up in a year. So you have a financial opportunity

to try to get Aiton from them because I just don't think Sarver's going to pay money like that. Now, who knows if he's the owner in a year, but I just... He's shown the history. He's never going to do it. That's one thing. Two is that because of how the season ended for them and especially with what Dallas did to them,

you're kind of catching them at a good time. It's like the guy who just had a fight with his fiance and they might not get married and you ask him like, what's going on? I never want to talk to her again and then two days later,

it might be fine. You're catching them at the perfect time. I never liked her. Yeah. Don't say, if that ever happens, don't tell your friend, I never liked her. Yeah. Don't say, if that ever happens, don't tell your friend, I never

liked her until you're sure the wedding's off. Now I'm doing life advice. Don't ever tell your friend. It's 100 for 100. Run from her.

So you're right. Yeah, yeah. You know, actually, we fooled around, so I'm glad this is over. But, you know, guess who i value eight and against in a series against yokage and bead yannis anthony davis

it's not like you still need a guy you still like you need two things now you need an eight and you need a five that's a small five because you're gonna have it's it's like different levels of grant williams have, it's like different levels of a video game. Where you go, okay, I got to change out my shields here. I overreacted last week. I was like, wow, I don't know what to think of Aiton anymore because of what Dallas just did to him.

And I think it was an overreaction. I regret it. Anyway. All right. So if you're Orlando, you're way under the cap. You're the first pick in the draft. You have Wendell Carter, who our guy Cerruti, who's not here today, but he really likes Wendell Carter. eight. Maybe it's Carter and Anthony for eight and campaign, whatever it is.

And then they look at it and they're like, we have Jabari Smith and Deandre now with our, with, with Suggs and with Franz. And like we have, our team's ready to roll. I'd probably keep Carter. I'd probably not do that if I were them because I liked that Carter contract. And I,

I'm not sure there's that much of a difference with them to pay Aiton twice as much. But I just wanted to mention them first. Yay or nay on them? I'd be more towards the yay part of it. I like Wendell Carter. I don't think he's going to be as impactful as Aiton. And if you're Orlando and you go, okay, we have this pick.

We've got Aiton. We've got Franz, who's one of the better rookies this year. You got Suggs, Jabari, Franz, and Aiton. And that's your four. That's pretty good. Now I'm talking myself back into it. Yeah, I think it moves up. I just, I cannot, and I'm going to

talk about this this week on the draft, never underestimate the person who's making the decision of what their stature is in that spot. Like who has, like Pat Riley can do whatever he wants. You know what I mean? And depending on what happens, like if Tim Conley takes the Detroit

job, Tim Conley can do whatever he wants because, excuse me, Minnesota job. Yeah. Right. Tim Conley could come into Minnesota and kind of do whatever he wants. He should have been able to do whatever he wants with Denver,

but it's just a lot more money waiting for him in Minnesota if that happens. But there's other guys. Tim Conley looked at, he looked at the Michael Porter MRI last week. He's like, yeah, I'm going to return that Minnesota call. The money is so different.

The combine rumors that I were hearing about Conley and what this contract could mean with Minnesota, it's not the same job, basically. Again, these are rumors, but when you're at the combine for a few days and you keep hearing the same number over and over again,

you go, oh, this is... I'm telling you, Bill, it's such a huge number. Makes sense for them. They want credibility. So door A would be flip Carter, maybe throw Cole Anthony in it for Aiton. And if you're Phoenix,

you'd rather have Carter at $14 million and Biambo as the backup or whatever and Patrick centers over paying Aiton $30 if you're cheap. Door B for Orlando would just be to sign James Harden. And just come back James time. We'll take them off your hand Philly. We got the cap room.

Here's a trade I like more. And a team I like more for Aiden is OKC. OKC's picking second. OKC has picks 2, 12, 30, and 34. OKC's picking second OKC has picks 2, 12, 30, and 34 OKC has a ton of

cap space, they could just take 8 and Phoenix could just take the picks back and not even take any contracts they could do a Sarge favor switch as part of the trade they could include a future first they could just dump some picks and just say yeah, we'll take 8 and just dump some picks and just say,

yeah, we'll take Aiton, here's some picks. And you can use those picks to do whatever and take either Paolo or Jabari, who's ever left, put him next to Aiton. And if I'm OKC and I have Shea and I have Dort and I have Giddy and I have the chance to have Paolo or Jabari with Aiton or maybe even Chet and Aiton, I'm doing it. And I don't care about the picks.

I have too many picks anyway. What am I going to do with them? What are they going to do with 2, 12, 30, and 34 this year and then all the other picks they have? Why not take a swing? What would be the deal, again, coming back to Phoenix, though?

I would do, I would offer them 12, 30, and 34. And I would offer the, I would do and 34. And I would do the favor Sarge swap. And I would throw in a future pick. And I'd be like, you're just removing this guy from your cap. You can start over. You can patch the center position together.

And we'll give them the 30 million. Obviously, two would not be in play for me. Well, so 2's not in play, which it shouldn't be in play. It's not going to be in play for Presti. It's not going to be in play. Presti falls in the category. He can do whatever he wants.

12's a good pick, though. 12's a good pick, but I need a player. I know everybody hates the Suns' guts right now, but there's still a good chance that this can be a really good team next year. And I know that's not what people want to hear, but that's not the way it works. And if you're actually moving on from Aiton, you'd look around and say, well, we still invested in Paul. We've got two more years.

We've got the non-guaranteed moving forward. We've invested in Bridges. We've invested in Booker. We need to add something to this that's not just some toss-in asset to do Aiton the favor of getting his money somewhere else. And that's kind of, I think, the dare here is I think that the Suns looked at who has cap space and said, well, does Aiton really want to sign an offer sheet with one of these teams? And I think he might now because he's upset enough about it. And in today's landscape, it's not about where you sign. It's about how soon you can ask out of where you've signed

because that whole thing has been moved up here. So the Suns may have thought, well, maybe he's not going to do it. I think he will. But the history for restricted free agents doing offers, 17 have had offers and only seven have gone unmatched. And then you've got the complication where if it's cap space team, it's one thing. If it's not a cap space team, he's a base year compensation thing. So it's not a new 30 million dollar trade piece it's a 15 million dollar trade piece uh plus the the 25 so that makes it a little bit weirder so i need a little bit more juice than you know i

kept thinking about different trades for eight and going you know could you talk to charlotte in some version of this but it makes it a little more complicated on the sign of trade could can you find a way to land at a place in the draft where you think you get a piece back that is NBA playoff rotation ready that you like, and you get a draft pick that gets you into the Mark Williams slots out of Duke? So Dort, oh, that's a good, I like that one. So I have one for that. Well, first of all, OKC, what if it's 12 and Dort?

And I can take for that. Well, first of all, OKC, what if it's 12 and Dort? Then I can take Mark Williams at 12. I need something else. I need something else. I mean, I know everyone loves Lou Dort. I need something else that is... You know what I really want, and I'd love to do it in the eighth trade? I need...

It's not Shea, Gilgis, Alexander, but it's something where... You know, I tie us Jones, who I love at Memphis, because I think he's a really good backup. I wouldn't want him necessarily being the guy running my offense for 35 minutes a night, but I need somebody to make Chris Paul's life easier. How about Tyrese Halliburton, who they could have drafted. Instead, they took Jalen Smith, who's no longer on the team. Charlotte has 13 and 15. They're at 100.2 million next year. So they couldn't really, I don't think they'd have the cap.

I was looking at all this. They're under the cap, but it's not. How about this? What if it's Rozier? Now we're talking. Rozier in the 13 for Aiton and Payne.

And then, you know, Rozier is like at $20 million a year. That's the third guard they need. Take some pressure off Chris, and then you hope to get Mark Williams in that range. I think he's going to go higher than that, personally.

What, higher than 12, 13? I think he could be the guy that sneaks up. Well, his measure is the combine. His combine stuff that happened. By the way, saw Sohan in person. Dominates the room, Bill. Dominates the room. I'm all in.

Just a vibe presence with Sohan that just wasn't even matches for Chicago. What about Purtle and nine? Or Purtle nine and 20? This reeks of the Spurs figuring out a way to do this. Being like, hey, you know who's really good? DeAndre Ayton. Do you want to just go get DeAndre Ayton and pair him with DeJounte

and some of the other things that we felt better about? And we'll get back on the right side. Purtle makes $9.4 million. Look, I've defended Purtle in the past. If I'm the Suns, I can't bring in a rookie in Purtle. How about Indiana Turner and the Six? Turner.

Turner and Six is a little different. That's bordering on the who says no. But if I'm Indiana, I don't want to trade out a Six. Look, I'm not always the biggest Turner guy because I think he makes the fits around him a little bit more complicated. And granted, he and Sabonis were terrible fits for each other. I thought,

but then again, Turner kind of likes playing away from the hoop and Sabonis needs it a lot in his hands. Any deal I'm doing, if I'm doing it on Phoenix's side, it's not, hey, are we better? It's, are we still a really competitive team in the West, despite

how bad we feel about ourselves right now? Like Purtle and nine doesn't go, hey, look out, 65 wins in a one seed again. How about Purtle nine and 20? What if I threw in 20? Indiana, maybe TJ McConnell, you could figure out a way to get him in the deal and send back Payne as part of it.

I think six is too much. I was trying to figure out a way to get him in the deal and send back Payne as part of it. I think six is too much. I was trying to figure out Atlanta, which is basically, there's a Capella-Bogdanovich combo for Aiton, or you could do a Kongwu-Bogdanovich for Aiton. But then I don't know what Atlanta would do with Capella. Couldn't make that one work. I was trying to figure out Sacramento

because who the hell knows with them, but they give up the fourth pick for DeAndre Aiton. Wouldn't make that one work. I was trying to figure out Sacramento because who the hell knows with them but they give up the fourth pick for DeAndre Ayton. Wouldn't put it past them. They're at $106.5 million so they'd have to throw a contract in there. It'd be like Rashawn Holmes in the four for Ayton, something like that. Utah,

they have Gobert who's $38, $41, $43, and $46 million next four years. But if you're just talking about... That's worth it. Aiton's run our course. Aiton's run his course with us,

but we need to get somebody who's going to compete. Aiton for Gobert, I think, is a possibility. Now, that would be such a quick no. I'd be like, who is this? Danny Strange? Never heard of him. Quick no for who? For Phoenix. I'm not taking on Go Bears money.

I mean, I just finished a playoff series where you're going, hey, do we actually have a guy that we can close on the floor? But again, it was against Dallas. And Dallas is as good at making your bigs look bad as any team in the league. I wanted to team up his playoff heroics with Chris Pauls. I thought that maybe they'd cancel each other out.

All right, enough. Detroit, $76 million next year, and they have the fifth pick. What if they were just like, hey, fifth pick for Aiton. Let's call it in. We'll give you Isaiah Stewart. I actually wouldn't trade Isaiah Stewart.

I like Isaiah Stewart. But fifth pick for Aiton. We'll take him off your hands. And we were talking to Detroit Assets, I probably should have, well, I should include Jeremy Grant in that moving forward because they might just find a way to redo the deal with him, you know, and say, even though he gets mentioned in every single

trade rumor all the time. I don't think GMs would say let's do five for Aiton, but I don't think it's crazy. Like the guy's 23, he's 24 in July. His Q rating's as low as it's ever been for a guy we have expectations for right now. He's a better asset than anybody after the top three. It's just a question of, do you want to pay him 30 million or pay this other

guy six? But guess what? You're going to pay somebody. So when you're a shitty team with no cap space, the fact that you could get DeAndre Ayton to take your money, you just do it. You don't go, oh my God, I can't believe how expensive DeAndre Ayton is. You go, hey, we should be thrilled

he took our money. We stink. So, the five pick, you know, I still think GMs would be like, no, I like the cross-effectiveness of locking in those first four years

plus the control in the fifth year. I mean, look, if this is almost any other franchise, we're not even talking about this year or later. So, let me throw one at you. If I was his agent,

I would want OKC or Detroit. Let me throw one at you. I want him a really good basketball situation for my guy with good guards. And OKC has him. Detroit has him. He'll succeed

in either of those places for whatever his potential is. That's where I would want to go. The other thing, too, that I like about you and I when we talk about trades is that you can run stuff through the trade machine and it gets thrown out. And it's like, well, have we not learned our lesson a million different times of that third team to shave the pieces down to make the stuff fit? So you go, hey, what about this? What about this? And figure out the rest of it later.

I'm going to throw one at you. Yeah. So Miles Bridges is kind of in the same boat here a little bit. And so, you could figure out a way to do something with the pick. Would you rather have a guy

like Bridges, active wing, and you'd have to figure out some better point guard combo thing. 4-8, you're saying. And the pick. So, two restrictive guys.

I don't know if... I wouldn't want to trade Bridges if I was Charlotte. I like him and Lomelo together. I'm not saying you want to, but... Okay, all right. I'd rather figure out a way to get Aiton and keep Lomelo and Bridges. And that would be my three.

Well, then you're going to have to move Gordon out of there, which I don't think he'd be against at this point. I have a trade for you with that. I have a big three-teamer I was going to have to move Gordon out of there which I don't think he'd be against at this point I have a trade for you with that I have a big three team where I was going to throw you Phoenix gets Rozier Charlotte gets Westbrook and Aiton the Lakers get the Lakers get

Hayward, Plumlee, Sarich and Payne and Phoenix also gets PJ Washington Hayward, Plumlee, Sarich, and Payne. And Phoenix also gets PJ Washington. Who do the Lakers get again? Phoenix doesn't get enough in this. And I think Phoenix would have to also get the number 13 pick, which is why this doesn't work.

Because then Charlotte's like, wait, we're giving up a pick and taking on Westbrook? Why are we doing this? The Lakers would just get Hayward and a bunch of contracts. Yeah, you lost me at Westbrook. Not to say that he can't be traded. Because I would never rule out agents finding a way. I was just trying to figure out

a fun run with him. I have a fun one for you then. Ready? Yeah. Aiton for Zion. Oh. And then you take Valanciunas' two years, $30 million, and you flip it to Charlotte for Bridges.

I don't even know if you can do that. But you could flip Valanciunas somewhere. I think he has value. Absolutely. He has value, and he's not super expensive. So the conversation would be this, because this is a bit like the Simmons- Aiton for Zion.

Right. So it's a bit like the the harden simmons thing where i felt like the whole time if you were the nets being like our guy may be tanking games but at least he's playing so you need to sweeten the pot for us because we're taking on your guy that will not ever play for you again even though that might be better than what harden was doing for the nets towards the end so you're always trying to figure out like who would have the power in this if If you're Phoenix, you're going our guy is healthy,

has a great track record of being healthy, and you're bringing him in and you're penciling in 18 and 10 in his prime and in the new world of the NBA four years, 130. Well, it would have to be a sign of trade

because it would be different for them. Zion's making 13 next year and if to be a sign-and-trade because it would be different for them. Zion's making $13,000 next year. And if it was a sign-and-trade, they'd have to figure out one more piece that would have to be in the deal so the contracts could add up so they can do the sign-and-trade. So you said Balanchunas.

It's a third team where he's just going to a third team either in a trade exception spot or whatever. So it basically would it'd be Jonas and Zion would be in the deal. And then that's how it would have to work. Or you put in like Larry Nance or whoever. That's how it would have to work. I don't think that makes sense for Phoenix. If I'm Phoenix, I want to get a rotation guy who could be one of my five guys in a playoff game or like six guy

so that's like a Rozier type guy or I want to get picks that I can then flip for a cheaper somebody or you have a chance of getting a superstar

who then would be playing with Chris Paul and it'd be a little different I think Zion playing with Chris Paul than any other situation he's had so far in his career

you go plant-based diet? I don't know if he's going to sign up for that. Would you like to try this Beyond Burger I'm eating? It's delicious. These chickpeas taste just like buffalo wings. Just try one. You won't even know the difference. There you go.

All right. Most likely, your most likely eight in trade team is? Wow. there you go. All right. Most likely, you're most likely in trade team is? Huh? Uh, I know Zach had the Pacers thing before the trade deadline. I still had a hard time.

Obviously, if Zach has it, it's a real conversation, which goes without saying. We talked about that on this podcast. No, I know. The Sabonis thing

was a real thing and Sacramento trumped them, but I think that was a real discussion. It was insane to think a team on the way to being the one seed and winning 60 plus games was like, hey, you know what we should do? Just move our starting center out in the middle of the season. Remember when the Celtics did that with Perk? When they did the Perk-Jeff Green trade.

Sometimes you kind of know, even if it's working in the regular season, you're looking at the playoffs going, this might not work when we get to the playoffs. Well, the perk thing was a contract thing. And anybody who gets a chance to get Jeff Green, you just stop what you're doing and you do it. That's how I live. Let's, uh, let's end there.

This podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton. Thanks to Steve Cerruti and Dylan Berkey as well. If you, uh, if you didn't listen to Russillo, you'd Barkley. Wouldn't you have Barkley on Thursday? Yeah, Charles Barkley for about 45 minutes on Thursday. Yeah, he always has the worst audio connection ever, but he's always a great guest.

He's always like calling from like an underwater phone. That might've been my fault. That might've been my fault. I don't know. He always has bad audio. they should get him a recorder but he's always a great guest alright so I think I'm going to be back Monday night

I think I'm going to do something off the Celtics he came on Monday and a surprise guest as well that I think will shock a lot of people see you then.