The Bill Simmons Podcast - The Yankees Survive, Milwaukee and Denver Struggle, Paolo’s Thriving, and Boston Is Frightening With John Jastremski and Kirk Goldsberry

Episode Date: October 30, 2024

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by John Jastremski to discuss the Yankees preventing a Dodgers sweep and winning Game 4, the case for a Yankees comeback, series predictions, and more (3:34). Then Bill talks with Kirk Goldsberry about his five favorite NBA developments so far this season, including the Bucks' and Nuggets' problems, JJ Redick's impressive coaching, unlikely 2-seeds in the East, and the buzz-saw Celtics (30:52). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kirk Goldsberry and John Jastremski Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, a little world series, a lot of basketball. It's all next. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too.

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It's on Monday. It's on prime. We're also brought to you by the ringer podcast network. We finished up scary month for the rewatchables with Halloween four, the return of Michael Myers. It was me and van Nathan and Chris Ryan. We had a lot of laughs. I know it's a scary movie,

but it's also an unintentionally hilarious movie. And we laughed a lot. You can watch it on the Ringer Movie's YouTube page because we put the whole video up there. We have a lot of videos going up there, including the Halloween episode that Chris Ryan and I did is gonna be going up later this week. You can watch all the videos and clips from this podcast

and the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. Coming up on this podcast, John Jastremski is going to talk World Series with me after the Dodgers blew it. They could have swept the Yankees. They did not. The Yankees fought and they survived. They forced a game five.

We're going to talk about the World Series. The state of the New York sports scene with JJ And then Kurt Goldsberry came on and we talked a lot of basketball This is not an overreaction of the first week just things that jumped out to us developments things of note and uh And that is the heart of this podcast One of the things we talked about was the nuggets because we're both very concerned about what we had seen from the nuggets We did it before the Nuggets Nets game tonight,

and after watching that game as I watched the World Series at the same time, that did not really change my opinion on my concerns about the Nuggets. They barely outlasted a Brooklyn team in overtime. They got 22 points from Westbrook off the bench, and it's honestly hilarious to watch them on this Nuggets team. I texted Russo in house that it's like watching

Shane Gillis stumble into a Daniel Day Lewis movie. It's this Nuggets team that has all this ball movement and precision and they're just surgically picking part teams, then Westbrook comes in, like he's shot out of a cannon. He was actually pretty good tonight. But it was not opposed to mean-facing it and talking shit and anything he gives them as a bonus,

but the fact that they needed him just to take Brooklyn to overtime, not a great sign. So Kirk and I broke a lot of that down with the Nuggets, what we're seeing, and all the other teams that we were just kind of intrigued by. So that's coming up. Speaking of Denver, I'm coming to town to watch the Nuggets and see Jokic in person in Denver,

which I've never seen. I'm bringing Rosilla with me and we're gonna do a live show when we're in town. That's right. It's gonna be in December. The Bill Simmons podcast will be live in Denver on Wednesday, December 4th. We'll be at the Fillmore Auditorium

and you can join us. Tickets go on sale this Friday, November 1st, 10 a.m. Mountain time. All information will be on the ringer.com events page. We hope to see you there. I can almost guarantee we're going to have a special guest, but, uh, Rossello loves Denver. He's going to be in a great mood.

I love Yoke-age. I'm going to be in a great mood. I love Colorado. So does Rossello. Can't wait. So December 4th live show. See you there. All right.

Let's start the podcast. JJ coming in first, is in New York All right, taping this 1140 Eastern time, John Jastremsky, AKA JJ, my friend, is in New York City right now, refused to go to game four, abandoned the Yankees, abandoned them, left them on the side of the road like a stray dog, and they went and they kept the World Series alive, and they beat the Dodgers.

They killed them, actually. It was a bullpen pitching game for the Dodgers, this new 2020s way of how we do World Series games. I still really enjoyed myself. JJ, have you started to talk yourself into 2004 ALCS, the bizarro version, Revenge, come back. Billy, don't let us get hot. Don't let us get won.

Don't let us get won. Look, you're get one. Don't let us get one. Look, you're selling me out here, which is a little unfair. I was at game three. I am bringing our esteemed producer, Stefan, who helps me out all the time with New York, New York for game five. And I did a good deed. I didn't want to go to three straight games. I let my mom and dad go to their first ever world series game. And I get the good karma of the Yankees avoiding the 1976 sweep, which was their World Series hiatus from, what was it, 64 to 76.

They put a big red machine, they could absolutely smoke. They needed to show some pride tonight. They needed to go out and show me a little bit of fight. And I don't care if it's a bullpen game, I don't care who the Dodgers were throwing. We get the result in New York that we desired, at least for putting off elimination for another day. A lot of people, your Game 3 podcast

has only been up for 24 hours. A lot of people are saying it's the saddest content that's been produced since Manchester by the Sea. The Casey Affleck movie, I don't know. You were really in a dark place after game three. And you've seen me in a dark place before. I mean, I was superimposed on your couch during wildcard weekend after the Dolphins played in what negative 20 degrees.

Yeah, like I think you've heard me and we're in our tech thread with Jaco where I get very angry and ticked off after these games. That's the way I felt after game one, when the manager decides to keep Tim Hill in the bullpen and goes to Nesta Cortez, which was managerial malpractice. But yeah, game three was just sad. Like the new Yankee stadium bill doesn't have the same energy that the old place once did. That said, 30 minutes before the game, which never happens because you have all

these corporate seats, the legends, the whole deal, 30 minutes before the game, which never happens because you have all these corporate seats, the legends, the whole deal. 30 minutes before the game, everybody was in their seat. Everybody's there for introductions. Everybody's there when Jeter's throwing out the first pitch. The place was ready to go berserk for game three. And it just went right out the window when future first ballot Hall of Famer, Freddie Freeman said, see you later. And it was the minute the ball was hit, you know, it was gone.

And the Yankees were dead to rights. And I wondered if we were going to get the same thing in game four when, Oh, by the way, they pitched the Freddie Freeman, which if the Yankees are smart, stop pitching to this guy. I know Te Oskar Hernandez is good. I know the Dodgers got a bunch of dudes. You cannot let Freddie Freeman beat you when he's got home runs now at six consecutive World Series games Yeah, but they fall behind they get off the mat and how about Volpe who has been much maligned big Yankee prospect? Didn't have a big regular season, but he's been solid in the postseason

Bill when he has that base running gas and he doesn't score I'm like jeez this is gonna haunt him now for the off season. Changes it with one swing and a bat. Yeah. And by the way, he probably scores anyway after the base running gaff, right? It was bad, but it wasn't that bad. But the problem was Wells would have gotten a third base. And you would have had a runner on third with one out and that ground ball from

Verdugo, which is what he loves to do, by the way. What an absolute stiff that guy is. I know you hated him. You said you're going to hate this guy. First month of the year, Jacko and I were talking ourselves into Verdugo. He stinks. I can't believe the Yankees are still playing him. But, you know, the ground ball he had should have tied the game. He had a good up at today when you had the lead near the end of the game.

So you're down three, nothing a sweep. I got to say, I was like a pig in shit today because I'm thinking like, that's why you booked me. Who are we kidding? That's why you booked me. You were ready for the funeral. We said, winner, loser coming on. But I was, there was a scenario where you get swept, judge goes over again. Soto goes to the Mets judge becomes hitter Kershaw basically. And the Yanks missed their window and

it's a whole winter of oh my god and now we can't fire Booner Cashman because we made the World Series we're stuck with this team we're not as good as we were last year so now at least you won a game Judge gets going with a crucial RBI ups up six looking good. Oh, you mean Mr. Mr. June? You mean Mr. June? Did you see the picture by the way, in Los Angeles of Winfield and Aaron judge standing literally right next to each other around the cage? Yeah. Mr. May and Mr. June, dude. Maybe it's like a thing. Maybe it's like the taller slugger people. But small T had that hit and and Smoltz was like,

maybe that'll get him going. But sometimes that does happen, where these meaningless games, and somebody can kind of relax and unlock a tiny bit. I don't know. Tomorrow you've got Cole versus Flaherty, and all the Red Sox fans that I'm on the tech thread with are like, fuck, this is going back to L.A. now,

because Flaherty can't be Cole. I'm not as, I'm not as sold. So Flaherty, it's interesting because in the NLCS against the Mets, he threw a gem in game one. He was in the exact situation that he's going to be in in game five, up three to one and the Mets pounded him. Alonzo hit a home run in the first inning. He was out of the game in the second and the third inning. He had nothing. I think Flaherty can go either way.

Here's the thing with Cole. And I know I'm gonna come on, the New Yorker's making excuses for the ace of the staff. He's not 100% right. And that's why in game one- You've been saying that for a while, by the way. He's not, cause he's not missing bats. He's kind of grinding it through.

Like I'm not gonna be surprised at the end of this year if something is announced with Cole. I don't know how serious it might be, but he's kind of gutting this out. Like that's why, what was it? Seventh inning, they basically went out to the mound. Boone didn't yank them right away. They kind of conversed when he was only at, well, like 85 or 90 pitches. When I'm like, wow, this is a quick hook.

I don't know if you're getting vintage virtuoso coal, but he needs to give you six strong. That to me is the pathway for the Yankees to win a game. Six strong, Kainly, who's good against lefties who you didn't see tonight. And then your buddy, Luke Weaver, who you could have had in your fantasy league. 21 pictures tonight. He's got a little bit of a screw loose, which I like. I think you kind of need that if you're going to be a successful closer. 21 pitches tonight. He's got a little bit of a screw loose, which I like. I think you kind of need that if you're going to be a successful closer.

The guy was a failed starter. He was solid in the Yankee bullpen all year, but then kind of got that role in September and it's kind of hit the ground running. He was nails tonight, Simmons. Those were big, big outs he got for him. The case for a possible comeback. You couldn't have gotten a worst judge performance so far. Maybe he can actually carry it. And if he does anything in game five, the crowd's going to go out of their mind. But then Otani is officially not looking right, you know, and Freeman kind of

switched bodies with Otani in a lot of ways and he's, he's been crushing it. But, um, if Freeman cools off at all with the way Otani looks, all of a sudden that Dodger lineup becomes a little more palatable. And I also wonder, like, is there some weird karma from the fans that interfered with Mookie Betts? Which, those guys are now legends. That was one of the worst interferences I've ever seen in my life. Because watching it live... What was worse?

I can't think of one. Unless they punch Mookie in the face. I mean, the guy literally is like sticking ever seen in my life. Cause watching it live. What was worse? I can't think of one. Unless they punch Mookie in the face. How would that have been worse? The guy literally is like sticking his fingers in the glove and you can tell Mookie's like, dude, just get the fuck off me, man. Get the fuck off me. But listen, here's the problem.

There's a pathway for the Yankees getting this back to LA. I think that's very viable. I think it's very feasible. Yankees hit it home, getting a little bit more confidence with the bats. Volpe wells down at the bottom of the order and Flaherty being off his game. The problem I had thinking down the road, Rodin against the Dodger lineup, and you were at game two, he does not match up well.

And I think he is mentally weak. I don't trust him at all. And the Yankees have seen Yamamoto twice. I went to the Friday night game in the regular season, he mowed them. You went to the game, game two on Saturday night, he mowed them. That is not a game where I say, wow, the Yankees have set up for success. However, if they get there, I'll take my chances. Why not? Can I get there? Can I get that?

I may actually get on the plane Friday. Well, I'll join the Yankees. They might let me on the charter. You never know. I'll tell you, if somebody's been in this spot as a fan, JJ, when you're down 3-0 and you feel like all hope is gone and then you steal that fourth game and then all of a sudden that fifth game

and then you're hopping on a plane, that pressure for the home team in that game six is pretty intense. That was the famous game where A-Rod slapped a royal. Oh, I was there. You don't have to tell me. I was in the right field bleachers, and this is pre-cell phone, this is pre-Twitter.

So being in crummy seats at the old Yankee Stadium, even though I loved the right field bleachers, there was nothing like it. One of the most rowdy places you'll ever watch a game. Nobody knew that A-Rod slapped the ball. And as you know, as a diehard Red Sox fan and somebody who filmed a documentary on the 2004 ALCS, they had two replay reviews before replay reviews were a thing. I mean, they didn't do this in baseball.

They did it on the bellhorn play down the left field line. And then everyone at Yankee Stadium is like, wow, this is, this is how the Red Sox are going to lose this year with A-Rod slapping a ball. Because in the Alphard, you're thinking he just ran right into him. And we know unfortunately how that went. But when was it for you that you start, because you had 86 years as it is, your father, all the history in New England. When was the moment for you?

It wasn't in game four. I don't believe it was in game four, when did you start to believe? Game five, at some point in game five. Cause it was an epic game. But mainly cause I was like almost, my nervous system was shutting down. But by the time we got to game six, when that review happened of the eight-rod play,

that was where the 86 years of history comes in, where of course they're gonna review it and decide, oh no, it's fine, and then the Yankees get the play, and that's just how it goes with the Red Sox. That brought back Ed Armbruster and Carlton Fisk, like all the shit from the past. And when that went the Red Sox way, it became one of those, oh,

okay. But I mean, the way we were running through pitchers in those four games, you just felt, you never felt safe. Even when we had that huge lead in game seven, didn't feel safe because we just, we had put so much miles on the pitching staff, which I think you're going to be in the same situation if this keeps going because you're gonna need 40 pitches from from lighter and from Weaver every game and that's just what I'm gonna go if you win four straight

They have an off day if they could ever win game five and if I'm not mistaken The Red Sox and the Yankees did not have the rain the rain before game three Yeah, and I remember that game was an afternoon game, game five. It was like a four or five o'clock game. I remember I ran a track meet, hustled home, watched the game. It was like four or five o'clock. Simmons, the game was going until like 1130, 12 o'clock. And then the Red Sox are all giddy. They're chugging their Jack Daniels. And the Yankees had no pitching.

That was the dirty little secret for the Yankees. After Messina in game five, they had Lieber who was okay, but game seven, it was either the corpse of Kevin Brown, who was a stiff, and then they're going to Vasquez out of the bullpen because El Duque was hurt. El Duque getting hurt was a huge underrated factor that caused the Yankees that serious. But yeah, it's problematic, but the off day,

get length out of Cole, find a way, and then hey, put all the pressure on the Dodgers. So this is even better than a sweep that you got sucked back in after your Manchester by the Sea podcast. It beats the alternative. I'd rather have the hope and be sucked in going to a game than get swept.

I mean, it got swept by the Astros two years ago, and it was like, it felt different because it was like, put me out of my misery. I know I'm going to sound like a spoil rotten Yankee fan. That's fine. I'm going to do that. 15 years, not going to the world series, Bill. That's an eternity. There's 20 year olds that don't remember Yankees world series. You will not believe. So I did a show Saturday night after the Yankees clinched the pennant and I

had so many young Yankee fans calling in. Yankee fans like under the age of 27 that were just like head over heels, so giddy and so excited because they're like, JJ, you don't get it. We don't know what this feels like. The last time we were in the world series as Yankee fans, I was six, I was seven, I was eight. I'm like, you guys are making, as someone that lived through the whole 90s and the 2000s

and now I'm getting up there in age, kind of made me feel old, Bill. I'm not gonna lie, man. It's like when you talk to the Dolphin fans who remember the last time they won a playoff game. Oh, Lamar Smith. In 1994. No, 2001, thanks, thanks, 2001. It was the idiot, liquored up kicker game

with Vandajax. Oh, yeah, that's right. Pain Manning. Dolphins and Fieler beating Pain Manning. I mean, never see another one again. On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do New York Yankee fans like this Yankee team? Like a 7? There's somewhere in the middle. I think they're never going to be in love with management. And I think it's kind of, for those of you who watch The Simpsons, know, when Mr. Burns puts the sign up in Homer's office, don't forget you're here forever. That's kind of how they feel with Cashman and Boon. They're here forever.

And now that they've gone to the World Series, you know, love it. It's another four years at least. No, guaranteed. Every bit of it. But the Yankee fan loves Soto. Not likes. Loves Soto. They like Cole. They want Judge to be the man. And I think everything about Aaron Judge is amazing.

He's a great dude. He's a great leader. All the kids want to be him. He's performed in the regular season, but I think he's the guy now that whenever this goes south, he's going to get his MVP award. You know, he's going to be doing the media tour in a month from now. But if he does not have another moment or two in this postseason, it's going to be such a classic, yeah, but yeah. And that yeah, but would only go up times 1 million if he's not teammates with Juan

Soto. I think Bill, if the Yankees re-signed Juan Soto in the off season, because there's this angst, the Mets weren't a serious player for Judge because Cohn got the team. I think he wanted to play nice with Hal. They were never really in on Judge. Yeah. They will be really in on Soto. They're going to offer Soto $550-$600 million. It's going to be anoto $550, $600 million. It's going to be an outrageous contract. And what choice do the Yankees have?

You're going to let this guy who's 25 and is a future Hall of Famer as a hitter, leave when you're not trying to win a championship. So I gave you a long-winded answer. The Yankee fan, I think is going to like this team that much more once they know Soto is going to be a part of it for years to come. I think there's that angst at the moment. I think the Dodgers have to be considered to be in play for Soto too, right? I can't see it, man. They have all that Otani money deferred.

It's basically like they have money to spend right now on somebody. But if they win the World Series this year, and we're living in a world where they go and they win the World Series. Are they going to have that sense of urgency? I kind of get the sense that Boris, that was a John Heyman story. Kind of feel like Boris leaked that to his pal. Yeah. Oh, I do.

I think it's like, Hey, everyone's saying Yankees Mets. Come on, Johnny, go, uh, go drum up the Dodger interest in subtle. I'd be stuck. Giants to me are more feasible because they're desperate. The Giants have not gotten a big free agent in forever. They missed out on Aaron Judge. I'd be more worried about them than the Dodgers personally. So I heard the vibe, like hour and a half to an hour

to a half hour before the game today, was that the vibe was weird in the stadium. What is game five gonna to be like now? Oh, I need more energetic. Yeah. Cause you're coming off a win. Like I don't expect the vibe in any stadium to be good if you're down three. Oh, I mean, you've been in a ton of buildings where you're down three.

Oh, what are you the idea? Well, we had in 04, in 04 the vibe was we don't want to get fucking swept. That's the way I felt tonight. Yeah. Don't get swept. Don't get swept. But I don't think anybody had illusions of, if we get this, three more.

It was just like, they beat us 19-8 in game three, and it was like, please don't get swept. Don't get embarrassed. These guys beat us last year, let's not get swept. And then it just kind of builds from there. But that's the genesis of it. And the problem for me with the Yankees, you guys are so bad at certain things

that are these key essential playoff baseball things, like the base running and defense and the manager. The fundamentals, they're awful. Just like basic shit you need to just keep winning playoff rounds. And you're just kind of winning despite all of these things as I keep watching. And it would just be weird if that was a World Series team that makes this many like self-inflicted

mistakes. I think it's totally fair. And listen, it was very costly in game one. I know the decision that Boon made going to Cortez is something that I roasted him on for an hour and a half. It was horrible. It's as bad as it gets, but it should have never gotten to that point. Soto, who I love, and I want to re-sign him

and I give him a zillion dollars, he is a butcher in the outfield. The idea that he was nominated for a gold glove is an absolute farce. How can anybody watch that guy and tell me he's a gold glove caliber outfielder? Kike Hernandez hit a ball, game one. Should have been a double, he misplaced it into a triple.

And then in the eighth inning, they scored the tying run because Gleyber Torres, who, I gotta be fair, he's been very good this postseason. He had a big home run tonight, he's done a good job in the leadoff spot. His baseball IQ stinks. Whether it's in the field, whether it's on the bases, this is something that has drove Yankee fans crazy

for the last five years. He doesn't block a ball, and yeah, you're right. Like they run the bases terribly. They're an average defensive team. They have some really good defenders. Like it's not that they're all butchers. Like Rizzo is a very good first baseman. Volpe defensively is a very good shortstop. You could throw out baserunners. Yeah. Well is behind a plate is a good catcher. And I give Chisholm a lot of credit He's never played their base before and they literally traded for him and said hey, you're the third baseman and

It's not been perfect, but he hasn't made a total ass of himself, right? Yeah, that's not a team from like a base running fundamentals baseball IQ standpoint that you say Wow, that looks like a World Series winner totally fair. So you've had this pod with us for like three, four years. I can't even remember. At least three, right? 2011, oh, 2021. 2021. Yeah.

Yeah. So this New York stretch, this has been by far the most fun stretch of the pod. But where does it rank like last 25 years for New York sports with all the shit going on? Because even the teams, like you have the Jets who are two and six, but have been like a content machine. You have the Giants, who have the hard knocks that the unintentional combination is through the roof. The owner claims he's not getting rid of the coach in the gym, but he probably is.

You have the Knicks with all the big trades. You have the Nets basically gutting their team and trying to go for a try. Like, it's just everywhere. And you have the Micks with all the big trades. You have the Nets basically gutting their team and trying to go for a try. Like it's just everywhere. And you have the Mets making the run. Everywhere you look, there's like New York storylines, which is kind of what we were hoping when we launched the pod, right? I mean, this is like the Nirvana. So I always was jealous of our buddy Francesca and Doggie that they got to live through the late 90s, where they got the Knicks with Riley into Van Gundy, the Yankees dynasty,

the Mets with Piazza. And I'm like, when am I going to get that in my career? Cause I go back to 2011, is when I started doing radio. So I've been doing stuff in the market for a decade, been doing the pod here with the ringer for three and a half years doing TV. This has been my favorite time as a sports professional in New York City. It's not even close, Bill. It's not even close. You had the Yankees in the World Series. You had the Mets come out of nowhere, absolute nowhere.

Double digit games under 500, winning the playoffs to getting the playoffs on a final day of the year in like the most dramatic way imaginable with Lindor. Then Alonso in the wild card, they're down to their last out and he hits a home run to go and give him the lead and you get a crazy grimace, OMG, all that stuff. The Knicks are the most fun they've been since the Patrick Ewing days. Not that I'm a big hockey guy, but the Rangers were in the cup final. And you're right, the football teams, as crummy as they may be, it always seems to be something. So yeah, full circle, this is the most enjoyable,

like 12 month run I've had doing New York sports content as a broadcaster, as good as it gets. Just wait until the Yanis-Nicks trade rumor start as soon as OG's contract is tradable. And now all of a sudden we got little towns in OG for Yanis and a contract and that momentum starts. Talk to your buddy Doc about that one. Try to make that one happen. It might be happening if they keep looking like absolute crap. Alright so predictions. When do the Yankees get

bounced? Like they're gonna get it back. No I'm gonna be honest. I'm gonna be very honest. They're gonna get it back to California and lose game six. Okay. I think they will have a moment with Cole. Maybe Judge actually has a moment. What a concept that would be. They'll get the off day. I'll really start to believe. And Rodin will get shelved for seven runs. That's my prediction. Dodgers and six. So game tomorrow, off day, 24 hours of hype, hope. Are you going to go to LA? Well, I don't want to miss it. This happened 20 years ago.

Blah, blah, blah. And then, uh, I mean, even making it to a game six has never happened in World Series history, but 21 teams just finished a sweep. Three got it to game five and then, and then, uh, won it and no team has been down through nothing and even gotten a game six. So that's not nothing, but not something you'll be telling your grandkids about either. No, I get that, but they'll save some face this team, at least if they're down

three, I want to get it back to LA. Like I, I, I'm not saying it will be easy to stomach, but it won't diminish the achievement. I know the bar has been lowered considerably in Yankee land, like getting to the world series now. You're not going to say this, are you? They haven't made the world series in 15 years. Ask Jacko.

He came on with you last week. I don't think you understand how bad it's been for Yankee standards here. He's caught it in achievement to make the world series though, the New York Yankees. It's a step in the right direction. I can't say. 27 World Series? Yeah. I can't say it's a fail. And unlike the Lakers, you don't cheat and count like titles from other cities. Minnesota titles. Yeah.

Minnesota titles. But like, you can't say it's a failed season, can you? No. You made the World Series. That's what I mean. I'm not saying that I'm pumping my chest saying, yeah, A.L. Pennant, A.L. Champs. Well, that's great.

Cause now I know that the 2003 losing to Florida is a big deal. That's what I mean. That's I'm not saying that I'm pumping my chest saying, yeah, AL Pennant, AL Champs. Well, that's great. Cause now that now I know that the 2003 losing to Florida, I guess, was now a huge success. By the way, that world series bothers me so much and it never gets talked about. That 2003 world series made me so sick to my stomach. David Wells out of shape, not being able to pitch in game five. And they all, we were, we were hung over from the Red Sox.

Finished the damn series. He lost to the Florida Marlins. I see Beckett with the water. Everyone killed McKeon. He started Beckett on three days rest in game six. Everyone was like, are you nuts? This is the dumbest managerial move ever. He throws a complete game shutout.

McKeon is smoking cigars on a Yankee stadium field. So, uh, listen, let's, let's get to tomorrow. That's, that's where I'm focused Simmons. The most shocking Yankees one was when the diamond backs actually beat Rivera. I think that's the most shocked I've ever been by a baseball game that somebody. Could actually make Rivera just get winning runs off of Rivera when he was at the all time invincible, unhittable. And, uh, and just even as it was happening, it was like, I just can't believe what I'm watching right now.

And that was when Soriano in the eighth inning hit a ball off of Kurt Schilling. The ball was literally at his ankles, hits the home run, gives the Yankees the lead. It's like, holy shit, they're gonna win again. But they got so outplayed in that series. Like they won game four, lest out. Game five, lest out, be young, young Kim. Remember him melting down on the Yankees? Well, that was the thing, they had the melting down closer

and you also had all the 9-11 stuff that it just felt like it was team destiny. Inevitable, yeah, inevitable. And then also, and Rivera on the mound, three more outs and we're done. And I, I just, I, my jaw was dropped and even I, as much as I hate the Yankees was kind of semi rooting for them. Yeah, that was one you would have been okay with. You would have been okay with that one.

I really, I got caught up a little bit, like the, the, the, the two comebacks, the bro-shes and Tino and, um, you know, it was cool. I thought the city really needed it. They did. And that game five, no better sporting event I've ever attended. And that includes for six overtime game. Doesn't get better than that. JJ John Jastremski who hosts the New York New York podcast.

Hope you're listening to it as well as the Ringer gambling show and the Ringer Sunday pregame show, which we do on Sundays with the Cuzz and with house and with Raheem. Who knows? I might even make a stop by this week. You want some advice? Unload your mortgage on Buffalo against Miami this week. I don't care how ratty it might be. Have you Buffalo Miami? You know what's gone on the last 10 years? Come on. Easy money.

All right, JJ. good to see you. Where's the luck with the Yanks? I know, thanks bud. The Bill Simmons podcast is presented by Fandle. If you're in need of a midweek boost, Fandle, America's number one sports book, has you covered with the NBA Hump Day Parlay's Rewards Stack. Now every Wednesday you can get Parlay profit boosts

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or 18 plus in president DC. Opt in required bonus issued as non-betraudable profit boost tokens Restrictions apply including any token exploration see terms at sportsbook.com Gambly problem call win 800 gambler visit RG dash help.com This episode is brought to you by my old friend Miller light. I've been a big fan of Miller light man Since since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days, when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too, Miller Lite.

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Miller Lite is the light beer with all the great beer tastes we like. 90 calories per 355 mil can. So why not grab some Miller Lites today? Your game time tastes like Miller Time. Must be legal drinking age. All right. We're taping this for all the Tuesday NBA games. Kurt Goldsberry is here.

You need some sort of gimmick for us. Like the professor. What do you want to be? I'm a professor. Yeah, I like that. Let's do that. I am technically a professor here at the university of Texas. So maybe that's not even a gimmick, but I like it.

Well, I like it for the pod. Like the professor is here. We want to talk NBA. We've had a week, not the professor is here. We wanna talk NBA, we've had a week not counting tonight's games. You know, everybody does overreactions. To me it's more of trying to stay calm and noticing things that have jumped out of the TV to me,

one way or the other. So we're gonna get into a whole bunch of that. But I just asked you, come up with five things, it could be any list you want You wanted to do five important developments Even though we're only one weekend, but the thing is what is the season like 25 weeks? Yeah, I was trying to think it. Yeah, I was trying to think about that in NFL terms. They have 17 weeks now I feel like we have to have like 30 weeks or something. Yeah, whatever it is

I mean the thing about overreactions you can see some things they have 17 weeks now, I feel like we have to have like 30 weeks or something. Yeah, whatever it is. I mean, the thing about overreactions, you can see some things that go, Ooh, like Denver's bench is like, Oh, anyway, five important developments start us off. What do you want to hit first? Well, you just started us off. I have the Denver nuggets, Bill Simmons, Nuggets might be in big trouble. That's my first development. And I think it has a lot to do with something

I wouldn't have predicted with any Nikola Jokic team just a few years ago, and that's their shooting numbers. They ranked 28th in effective field goal percentage. You mentioned they're very thin. I think they're particularly thin when it comes to one emerging skill in pro basketball, which is shooting three point shots. They let KCP go famously.

This is after letting Jeff Green and Bruce Brown get away previous to that. And then of course they imported Russell Westbrook to a team that already ranked last in three point attempts last season. So here we are with Westbrook on that team. And the numbers maybe shouldn't have surprised us, but the Russell Westbrook thing especially has been a debacle. In the 58 minutes he's played, they have a net rating of negative 30. And in 91 minutes he hasn't played, played their plus 11, which is a lot more nuggets like. So that's my first one.

I mean, this is a team that a lot of us thought could compete for the championship. And certainly early, it doesn't look like they have the offense to do that. Yeah. It's a respect for, you know, the stuff they've done the last few years, respect for the fact that they have one of the three or four best players in the league, depending where you want to put them, you could put them first. We, when we did the over under odds,

I ended up going over, did not feel great about it. It was really just a respect for Yocage thing. But you know, when the over under was, I think it was 51 and a half, something like that, as we were like a month away from the season, it seemed really high with all the things that were in flux. What's interesting though, every single thing that was in flux or I'm a little

worried about this or what if that doesn't, it feels like they're nine for nine with it going the wrong way against them, right? Murray looks okay. He doesn't look like the Murray from, you know, two years ago. Porter does not look the same. Gordon, the shooting thing becomes even more drastic when nobody can shoot. All the guys they were counting on

off on the bench of the world players. I don't really think any of their shots are gonna go in. Like Brown had that big shot in the overtime game last night in the corner wide open. I didn't think it was going in. And then you see Jokic having to take this huge offensive burden now where he's 40 both nights. That's not who he wants to be. No, no, it's almost like those LeBron teams in Cleveland where he had nothing. The first time he was in Cleveland, he can do that, but he's not put on this earth to do that. He's put on his earth to make everybody else around him better.

And they're really sort of Peter principalling Christian Brown. He's being promoted to this level of expectation that is not suited for him. And again, it goes back to this front office, not being able to build a really deep bench around somebody I would say is the best player in the world right now, particularly on offense. So I think this is a failure for a front office to build particularly spacing around this offensive savant, a guy that almost beat Team USA single-handedly in the Olympics this summer, Bill.

Yeah. And then we show up. Yeah, Jamal Murray's not who he used to be. Michael Porter Jr.'s off to a slow start. Aaron Gordon's never been a floor spacer. So what do you do around that? You got to find shooting. And they just haven't done it. And, in fact, they did the opposite by importing probably the most infamous jump shooter of

our time in Russell Westbrook. And it's been woeful and it's been really harsh to see. And so I just don't think they're a contender with this group we've seen in week one. It really bums me out. And they've taken some swings because on the one hand, you could call them a little cheap for having, I think he's the best player in the world.

I would also understand if somebody else wanted to really make a strong Luca case, whatever, but I still think Yoko has the belt, but you know, they gave Zeke Naji gave this four year deal, right? That he's making 9 million a year. You look even like, how do they fix this? It's really hard to make trades with them, you know, cause I thought like the trade that made the most sense in my head right away was something with Michael Porter and Zach Levine.

Was like, Zach Levine's kinda, this is a different look for them, makes them a little smaller, but he brings some stuff that they need. He can create his own shot. Not everything has to go through Jokic. He's a good three point shooter. He's not good defensively, but that's fine

because maybe your offense will get so much better. It's not gonna matter. But you can't even do trade. That's not a straight up trade that works. You have to put Zeke Nagy in it. You have to use like the Bulls trade exception. And then the question is, well, why would the Bulls want Michael Porter and Zeke Nagy?

So I don't even really know how they make the team better. They don't have anybody in that mid range level, like that 12 to 20 million type of player that you could flip. And the bucks are in a similar position too, but, uh, I don't know what the move is to fix this, I think is a bigger issue for me. I don't see one and I don't think there, there is one coming. And I think one of the only moves is to make Jokic do all of the stuff that he doesn't like to do,

specifically the three point shooting. And if you look at their three point shooting without Jokic, the numbers get even bleaker. So I know that you've been talking a little bit about Jokic losing his three point shot in the summer. It looks like it's back. It's unfair for this dude to also be the Steve's best floor spacer.

That can't be, that can't be the answer. We can't have the guy being the best rebounder, uh, the best playmaker and your best three point shooter. Uh, he is the MVP three of the last four years, but even that's too much to ask for Nicole, the Oakes at this point. Well, the other thing with that, it looks good now cause it's, we're four games into the season, but you saw it last year, like his legs started to go during the playoffs and he, he just, the three point shot wasn't the same. He defenses are clearly like,

we want you to shoot this now, right? It's a go ahead and knock yourself out. If you go four for 10 from there, fine, whatever, where you, cause we, we're also covering all this other stuff. But the fact that Porter hasn't gotten better, and I really wonder, like, did the stuff that happened with his brother, like how much did that affect him? How much off-court baggage is in there

with how he just doesn't look the same? He's had a bunch of injuries over the years, but to me, he just doesn't look like dynamic. Like I would take, I really like watching the Hawks, even though they're not that good. You could talk me into like four Hawks wings over Michael Porter Jr. at this point. So the fact that he's just not even an impact player in any way, combined with all this other stuff, it's, I know everybody's been talking about the nuggets, but this is really important. This is one of the, this is probably the best player of his generation.

I also feel like that meta choked out. They won the title 17 months ago. They won the title 17 months ago. We're going to talk about them. They have the best player in the world, according to many of us. And then one of the weirdest things I've seen is early this season is, is a head coach, you know, pining for a player that left the team, uh, Cantavious calleddwell Pope, who would solve some of these problems, but he's repeatedly mentioned this and there's some tension reportedly between the coaching staff and the front office. By the way, that's not reported.

I think there's definitely tension because those rumors were flying around. And then right as the season starts, he comes out and it's like, you know who'd really be nice? Cantavious Caldwell Pope. Like you don't do that shit unless there's some deep rooted stuff going on. Yeah I agree and I'd never seen, I don't know, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't seen a coach be like man we really could use that guy back. Like that's just, you know, nobody does that. So I think there's a revelation there that they just don't have enough pieces, particularly on that perimeter.

And then Michael Porter Jr. is being asked to be more than he is because Contavious isn't there anymore. So it's just all a symptom, I think, of poor team building there. Yeah. Michael Porter is basically 13 and seven. He's not going to create shots for anybody else. His three point shot is going to have a little variance to it. Murray's at 17 a game through the three games.

He did get the game time basket that sent the game to overtime last night where he looked like old school Murray a little bit. But I wonder like, do you feel when somebody's doing the same thing over and over and over and over again for years. I'm not saying the play is stoppable now, but we've had just had so many reps with it that the defenses at least have somewhat of a sense of what to do. And then when the shooting around Murray and Jokic together, isn't awesome. It just feels like not as unstoppable as it did two years ago to me.

It just feels like not as unstoppable as it did two years ago to me. When that ball is falling, finding Russell Westbrook after those passing sequences, it's just not as scary. There's another defender that doesn't really have to pay attention to the corner or to the wing than normally had to. So yeah, it's a lot easier to defend when there's not contiguous out there. And I know I'm beating a dead horse, but that's the thing. It's not just the possessions where they end up draining the three. It's the one where they thin you out. And it's a backdoor cut for Aaron Gordon. And suddenly that plays easier to defend. So yeah, I think there's these ecological impacts, but the bottom line is you're not going to win the NBA title Bill Simmons in 2025 if you're the worst three point shooting team in the NBA. You're not going to do it.

And I'm not saying that's where they're going. Okay. See in Boston or in the league. A hundred percent. And, uh, yeah, I just think it's a tale of two cities in terms of building a deep roster over the last two NBA championship teams, Boston has done it right at the Brad Stevens. Denver has not.

The other thing I wonder, so you're talking about the Cronkies who own multiple sports franchises, who won a title a couple years ago, right? So it's not like they're like, oh man, we're gonna do whatever it takes for the Nuggets to win a title. They won the title.

They also have a best player who is not gonna be exactly leaking stuff to reporters and doing passive aggressive shit or being like, I don't know, I don't know how long I'm gonna be here if we're not committed to winning. They're spending money, but they're not really spending money and the people I've talked to in the league, everyone's kind of shocked that they weren't more all in on this Yokeage

Murray window, you know, and Caldwell Pope, there's been reports about, Oh, he took, you know, he, he basically could have had either offer. He chose the Orlando offer, but that's also one that maybe could have locked up a year ago or, or, or done a better job, but they clearly thought, no, no, our young guys can step up into that spot. He only averaged eight points a game in the playoffs last year. It just feels like they're not lavishly spending the way

like the Celtics are spending right now. Maybe that's not the perfect path either. Celtics are gonna be 100 million, you know, over the luxury tax, whatever the hell it is. But at least as a Celtics fan, I'm like, my owners give a shit. They're spending, they to win the title again. I don't think Denver fans can say that.

It certainly doesn't. And that KCP transaction or lack thereof, I think, is a very good sort of proving point for that. And yeah, they just don't have the Aaron Gordon. Yes, great transaction a few years ago. Jamal Murray is slipping. Michael Porter Jr. isn't as good as I thought he'd be at this point in his career. And below that line of four guys that we can all picture, that's the exact part that the Celtics have gotten right. The Spurs used to get right. The 4-12.

Yeah, because you have to have those guys. And a lot of times, Bill, those guys are your shooters. Those are your spacers. You mentioned the bench early. Uh, that's, that's just the exact plot where they're letting Yocic and the fans down is they're just not doing four through 12. Right. I still love watching Yocic. I watched a lot of the game last night.

This is a fascinating version of him because like, if you look at the scoring title right now and that was one of the things I wrote down I was just like hmm the scoring title has Jokic and Davis near the top after a week I don't think that's gonna last I think Luca's gonna end up winning it but Cam Thomas shoots 28 times a game like to me the scoring title could go nine directions I do wonder will this be a career high for Jokic from a scoring standpoint? Like will he get to like 29 a game? Cause I think he's gonna have to.

If he didn't score 41 the other night against the Clippers, they were gonna be in bigger trouble than they already were. And he had to score 40 for them to win an OT in Toronto, which isn't exactly a juggernaut right now. He has to do this. There's just no other options. And again, I think the analogy is LeBron and in the pre Miami era where he had to

do a lot of the work as a score himself. So I think, you know, so you're talking about Mo Williams, Antoine Jameson. Yeah. That's Jack. Oh yeah. Yeah. Drew that that era was drew good. And I can't remember if it was something. Yeah, definitely up Shack. Oh yeah. Yeah. Drew, that Drew was Drew Gooden. I can't remember if it was something. Yeah, definitely.

Drew Gooden. Yeah. So I think that's not a good comp. Anytime we're talking about that roster for, for that player who is a very gifted player at that time in the two thousands, that's not a good comp for Calvin Booth and the, and, and the Denver Nuggets front office. Well, here's my question. And the bucks might be coming up as one of your other developments. for Calvin Booth and the Denver Nuggets front office. Well, here's my question. And the Bucks might be coming up

as one of your other developments. Are you more worried about the Bucks or the Nuggets? Because I'm more worried about the Nuggets than the Bucks. Because with the Bucks, you can at least talk yourself into a, well, when Chris Middleton comes back, they'll at least be able to defend wings Maybe not that great but way better than how they're doing it right now the bucks problem is Any guard who can get into the paint and any wing who can get in the paint can do whatever the fuck they want against the bucks

It's like it's like an all-you-can-eat buffet. What do you want to do? Do you want to shoot a floater? Do you want to get to the rim? Do you want to do a stop and then a step back three? Everything's that you want to post somebody up come play the Bucks and I don't know how they fix it They're atrocious defensively Middleton will make it a little better. I don't know what the fix is for the Nuggets Yeah, well, I think one of those two stars is more likely to ask out than the other one So I'm going to say I'm more worried about the Milwaukee Bucks and that is my next developing friend. So I don't know if you wanna do that now.

Let's do it now, yeah. Cause it is a very similar situation, but on the opposite end of the court. I mean, just like we sort of started to associate Nicole Jokic with just offensive efficiency in a can. If you have them on the court, you're a top 10 offense. That's somehow not happening in Denver this year. The opposite was true, I thought, with Giannis and Brook in Milwaukee, especially in the

Bud era. But their defense is garbage right now, Bill. And I think they have a good chance of starting two and five or one and six. And they are losing to teams, including the Chicago bulls. Uh, they couldn't stop Kobe white or Zach Levine in that game. They lost to the Brooklyn nets, which was one of the more eye popping results of this young season. But, but also not eye popping.

Cause I was like, I forget what the line was, but it was high for the bucks. And I'm like, man, I bet the Nets could like give the Bucks a game. I just feel like anybody who has wing scores and point guards that can create are a problem for the Bucks. They should never be favored by 11 over anybody. Well, then Peyton Pritchard comes out and looks like Clay Thompson against them from 2015. So you're exactly right.

You nailed it. They can't stop perimeter offense, which is not Mike Budenholzer's era. Bucks team and certainly not Drew Holliday's era, Bucks defense. Last year, I think, well, in Bud's last year, Milwaukee ranked number one. This is an ancient history. They ranked number one in defense two years ago. They ranked 19 last year. That was a lost season. But early this year, they're 26. And it's the nature of it. It's the open threes that are giving up.

It's the drive and finish from the perimeter players. It's Damien Lillard not doing his job and nobody covering up in rotations. The lack of Chris Middleton is being felt to some extent. But this is an Eastern conference that's less forgiving than it has been. I'm pretty worried about the Milwaukee Bucks because I've also heard some intel that the vibes aren't great there either, with some of their top tier talent.

I don't know if it's Yanis or Damian or Chris or whatever, the bottom line is they might start one and six and their defense might be bottom 10 and that's not a recipe for long-term success. And the big picture question, did they just get passed by a couple of teams? Like I watched that Orlando Indiana game last night,

which I want to talk about at some point as we're talking here. And those teams are just really young and really athletic and have multiple options and really fun lineups they can put together and they're built around guys who can create shots. And if Paolo's gonna keep doing what he's doing, I just like Orlando's ceiling more than Milwaukee

as a regular season team, much less a playoff team. We talked about it before the season when we did the over under pod. And I brought up Yana's straight stuff a couple times. And I think people thought I was being a dick about it. This is stuff that's been going around for a year. And they can deny it, he can deny it. But it comes down to the basic premise

of the guy wants to compete for titles and if he doesn't feel like everything around him is title worthy at some point, he's going to go to a place that he wants to compete, that he'll be able to compete for titles. I look at this Bucs team and I, and it's really hinging on Middleton who hasn't been a hundred percent healthy in three years. Right. And he was 33 years old.

They have an old team in general. And now you're putting all this pressure on the Middleton piece, which it can't be rolled out, but I wouldn't bet on it. And I love what you said with Sal the other day about our, our LeBron and Tom Brady sort of deforming our ideas of aging curves. You know, like there are these two examples of just once in a generation competitors that also just broke aging curves.

And Chris Middleton's a great example. This is a normal 33, 34 year old season. Like there's going to be this. Brooke Lopez is getting up there. Like under normal circumstances, we would be ready for this. And I think age is a big factor. By the way, Damian Lillard, not exactly a young player anymore. I think this is an old basketball team. And you've studied this for years.

They don't do well, especially aging guards like Damian Lillard. This is not unusual to see this exact thing happen. And I hate trade demand stuff. I hate trade demand gossip, but that intel is out there, folks. The honest stuff is out there. Leave it to other people to talk about the deals and stuff like that. But you're exactly right. I think there's a world where this, he's the next big domino to drop in that kind of trade demand.

Um, you know, and I think the Knicks, the Knicks were waiting on it last year, and then he ended up doubling down. They, they did the Dame trade. And I think they had to audible to other stuff they had planned. I asked them, would enroll the Knicks out long-term with the honest to begin with, like they have the town's piece that would work as the contract. I asked them, would him roll the next out long-term with the honest to begin with, like they have the towns piece that would work as the contract. I don't, I went through all the teams again.

I was on a text ride with some friends talking about it today and I don't really know what the team is. If you're talking about titles, which we talked about when we did the over under pod last month, there's not like the perfect fit, but I know that dude doesn't want to be irrelevant and just just like little shit like him not being on the Christmas day game. It's not nothing, right? You're not on one of the 10 most interesting teams in the league anymore. Also, you don't really have a chance.

Doesn't seem like to win a title unless there's some, some roster changes. But the Dame, the one thing with this is the Dame thing, I feel like was pretty predictable, because he had stopped playing defense for a few years, and then the Middleton, just him getting hurt three years in a row, like he hasn't been healthy since that 2021 playoffs, so, and they missed on some draft picks, which is the other piece of this.

The Celtics did a good job with a couple of their fringe guys that they found. Hauser, Cornett, Pritchard, like guys that, even the Tillman trade last year, guys they can plug in who can eat some innings for them. And the Bucks haven't found that. But it's so funny to bring that up because I remember in 2022, May of 2022,

not ancient history, sitting at TD before that Grant Williams game, right? You think back to that, I remember talking to people around me and being like, I feels like we're going to watch these two teams play big playoff games for the entire decade, doesn't it? And it just felt like that. Like that was just a rivalry we were going to get start

this thing and what did Brad Stevens do in the last few years? He turned Grant Williams and Time Lord and Smart and Brogdon into this new, deeper than ever basketball team that won the championship. And Milwaukee's kind of gone the other way in that same time period. And I just, it just doesn't feel right in their old. And the other thing

about the Damian deal, much like the Beale deal, is that paralyzes your ability to trim around the edges, to build small pieces around there. That's a big number. And in this new CB era, Bill, nobody wants to talk about the nerdy stuff. Just know that it's really hard to build a team when you have one of these $60 million players on your cap. Right. And the Celtics got off two guys when their value was probably higher than who they were as players, right?

Grant and most importantly, Marcus Smart, who I think had a lot of miles on them. They sniffed it out. Everyone went nuts when they traded them. I was probably on the side of people defending it. Cause I was just like, I just think he's hitting maybe a different point in his career. And he gets hurt last year, which is fluky, but this year you watch him and it's not the market smart

from three, four years ago. This is the shit that happened. So one of the bucks mistake was they moved on, it feels like the wrong guy, right? They used, they basically Drew became the fall guy for the two Disappointed playoff performances and then they kept the rest of the nucleus and maybe they would have been better off I don't know come up with a different plan. It's hard to rule out Yanis He still want to it just like it's hard to rule out yokage, but I did it

Yeah, I think they yeah, so they lost the 1-8 series and Miami just destroyed Drew Holliday I mean Jimmy Butler did did do a lot of damage to Drew Holliday in that series and Milwaukee overreacted. I mean, I'm a spur guy, you know that Spurs lost an 8-1 series at some point during their run to Memphis. They lost to Memphis. Yeah, it was in 2011 Did they fire pop? Did they trade Tony? No, they didn't do that stuff at some point during their run to Memphis. Everybody remembers that. They lost to Memphis, yeah, it was in 2011. Did they fire pop? Did they trade Tony?

No, they didn't do that stuff. They said, God, that sucks. Like, we got our asses kicked. Let's get better and come back next year. They didn't overreact. And I think Milwaukee kind of- You know what they did? Isn't that they did the George Hill trade that year?

For a fly? That was their overreaction, was they traded their fifth best player, not their second best player. But yeah, I don't think that's going to age well that that period, because Giannis was hurt in that series too. And it's like, okay, guys, that's you're not going to win the championship every year. Like even the Spurs dynasty, they won five out of like 16 chances. Like you're not going to do it. You're not going to do it. The other thing I think they've missed, I was talking to somebody about this the other day that, uh, I just, as I've said a million times, I think the league is better. And these teams that you would put together that would look like a 2018 contender.

I don't think that's conceivable anymore. Even look at like the Lakers have looked pretty good for the first four games. That's not just about LeBron and AD. Like Reeves is playing really well. Rui is playing really well. Right. The coach is a huge upgrade from last year's coach. It seems like so far some of their role guys have been okay, but it's not just

the two guys and that that's, you know, that was what made the Celtics so special last year. That's what made the Mavs have realized we got to go nine deep. You got to use the regular season a certain way. And then you see the bucks and it's like so much pressure is on Yannis and Dame having like a 35 point game. And then what's plan B if those things don't happen. I, I don't know. I, I still, I still like their ceiling with the Middleton piece, but you could also tell me he's never going to be the guy again.

And, um, I would believe that too. The nuggets, I have a much harder time. The nuggets basically come down to can Murray get back to where he was? And if you're going to tell me he's going to get back to where he was, I'm feeling better even with the lack of shooting. He saved their asses in that Toronto game in his home area. That was a good sign. He is one of the, yeah, he has a gear and he has that clutch gene that so many guys don't have, but he hasn't looked good in a while, particularly in the FIFA play.

He doesn't look good for what we're, you know, I had him probably like 22nd in the ringer hundred this summer, you know, and, um, I donnd in the Ringer 100 this summer, you know, and I don't know if I'd put him in the top 25. All right, let's take a quick break and then we'll do the other three things you wanted to. Our Yahoo Fantasy League here at the Ringer is in full swing. Yahoo Fantasy Plus is helping the crew get W's. It is the best fantasy platform, easy app.

It just ties in, updates stuff right away. You can click on guys for injuries. I really like the player update piece probably the most, just finding out what is going on with everybody. But Yahoo Fantasy Plus gives you tools so good, they're an unfair advantage you need it, especially for the Thursday night games. Everything happens so fast.

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Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Coming back. What's your third big development? Well, you're just talking about it. And our friend JJ Reddick looks like a good MBA coach and you were talking about it. Uh, I think the Lakers look like a different group. Um, and it's really interesting. I think JJ has found something.

And if you followed it closely, closely and talked to him in the summer he was obsessed with how can I get more out of Anthony Davis bill and early on one of the developing things right now is that he's found a way and Anthony looks as good as he's ever looked as a Laker maybe outside of the bubble so far and I think You know playing through Anthony on office giving him more responsibility his work so far. And I think, you know, playing through Anthony on office, giving him more responsibility has worked so far. But it's more than that. I think JJ has also done a great job of getting the role players to feel invested, to feel like they're part of the group. And I think he's designing ATOs that end with, you know, Austin Reeves or Rui getting a good look.

Uh, he knows the tricks. I know he's been a role player. Uh, and I think that you couldn't ask for a better first week. I know they're three in one and not four and oh, but this is a great start for JJ Reddick and not everybody was predicting that by the way, this, this, every there, you didn't have to look very far in our world to find somebody who's like, Oh, JJ doesn't know what he's doing. This is going to be a disaster. Well, through one week, at least it's not a disaster in Los Angeles.

Yeah. If you had to tell me bet on disaster or great coach, I probably would have bet on disaster just because I just think it's really hard to be a coach. And there's a whole bunch of stuff that goes with it, including how you deal with your best players, how you deal with your best players How you deal with the media day in day out? I've been super impressed and I haven't gone to a game yet. So I haven't seen in person but

They look really crisp. I like the plays that he designs coming out of timeouts Like there's just little subtle shit where you can tell oh this team knows what to do they're doing. Last night against the Suns, Lebron had a bad game. He didn't have it last night. And I think in the past, they wouldn't have kind of moved the car keys away from him. And JJ has already shown to me, he's not afraid to be like, hey, Lebron, you don't really have it tonight.

Let's toss the car keys over there. Cause I felt like there, last couple of years, I felt like there were games where like Reeves, as crazy as this sounds, was probably a better creator matchup for them. Right? He just had a worse part guarding him. He could run pick and roll with Davis better.

And maybe we don't need LeBron as much this game, but LeBron, cause he's LeBron, I think the previous coaches were kind of paralyzed by it. JJ is clearly like, we're going with the matchups that are going to win this game. LeBron was like to the side last night. It was really, it was really interesting to watch. And I, I, what he's done for Davis is like undeniable. Now Davis could get hurt tomorrow, but, but he's, he's as invested and as competitive as I've seen. And the last thing, because I'm doing a rambling monologue,

I really like how intense he is on the sidelines in a good way. And I have a lot of different thoughts about what coach behavior should be on a sideline, because I think these guys are all adults. They don't need Rick Pitino yelling and slamming the clipboard, and they don't need somebody yapping the whole time.

He's more intense in like a locked in way. Like if they get fucked on a call, he's going right at the refs. He's he, you can see him pacing on the sidelines when it gets to the last two minutes, it's almost like he's playing. And I think they kind of needed that. Don't you feel like they, they kind of needed that energy. And I think they've, they've been in every one of these games, even the sun's game, they almost won.

Yeah. The sun's game on the road against the team that also looks like they have a good new coach and is playing better than they had been. Uh, but yeah, I think JJ couldn't, couldn't be, and I think the energy is a great point. I think he is a leader. Um, and I do not diminish his preexisting relationship with LeBron James, albeit on a podcast, but dude, it helps.

It helps. You can tell that LeBron, he started here on second base with LeBron James. And we've watched LeBron run through coaches in his career, Bill. Uh, he's starting in a better, he's starting in a better place. Um, and he's raising his, his role players in the media, Austin Reeves notably. Um, but the AD thing is, is, is the headline. I mean, he currently leads the NBA in scoring. He's averaging 33 and 12.

He's ruined this. I mean, he's played the Suns twice and Nurkic for whatever reason. He just demolishes Nurkic. They don't. So we'll see when we get to some other centers, but offense defense, he's been great. He looks like the guy, when we're writing about him in Grantland, he looks like the guy we all thought he was gonna be in 2013 and 2014 when he was this youngster in New Orleans.

In fact, his usage rate is higher right now, speaking to JJ and running the team through Anthony Davis, his usage rate hasn't been this high since he's gotten to Los Angeles. So the numbers back up the idea too, that the team is running through Anthony Davis and it's working early. He's one of the best two way players in the league

when he is healthy. And you mentioned this earlier, but he's gotta stay healthy. And one of the things I would say is he, he's looked healthy since the Olympics. He, he, he, he, it looks like I don't want to, I don't want it. Yeah, that's true. I don't want to jinx anything. Uh, but he looks like he is, is a reliable sort of, uh, sustainable,

uh, presence in this rotation. Yeah. There's one other thing going on with this team that I didn't realize fully until I was watching them. Because they've actually been pretty fun to watch. I took the under for them at 42 and a half. I thought, you know, new coach, LeBron, hitting age 40. Like I did so many good teams in the West.

Just didn't seem like a great bet. I went over on them the last couple of years. Now their over is up to 44 and a half. And I would probably take the over on the 44 half of that point. Here's the other reason, other than the ones we mentioned, I think the brony thing's been good for LeBron being part of that team. Oh, that's interesting. He, I think there's a real energy and a real joy he gets from it.

Um, now I sound like I'm an ESPN talking head, just praising LeBron. Um, but I really think like, there's just something different about the investment when your son's there every night, right? And I, I, it just seems like he's responded in all the right ways to it. I've no idea if it's going to last, if it's sustainable, but I don't know if we're going to see some of the passive aggressive stuff that he was doing the last couple years with the roster because he seems way more invested in the roster and the guys that he's playing with. That's a great point. I never thought about it. It's so primitive, but as a dad, it's kind of harder to be a jerk to the waiter at the restaurant. If your kids did the table, it's really true.

And he's just being a pro. You're setting a dad example. You're still like, whether I know, Brian is a grown ass man now is like 20, but he's still a kid. Like my son turned 17 next week. I still look at him. Like he's a six year old that I'm trying to teach him right from wrong. I don't know. I might be wrong, but I do, I do feel like the energy from that has been a positive and I thought it was going to go the other way.

I thought it was, this is going to be a soap opera. This is there to be asking about every game, but it really seems like they've navigated correctly. Bronnie's there probably in the G league. He's definitely not going to help that team in any way this year, but I think he's been good to have around. I think it's, it's given everybody a boost. It's definitely not going to help that team in any way this year, but I think he's been good to have around. I think it's, it's given everybody a boost. It's weird. I love that take. And I think, you know, the other thing is he is starting to slip.

You know, he needed a late three in that Phoenix game. And I know they lost. Just to keep his 3000 year old streak of 10 points in every game alive. He needed to hit that three pointer. Yeah. I think, again, we're overreacting here. It's week one, but, you know, LeBron's gonna have more and more nights like this. This is what it's gonna look like. And JJ, to his credit, saw this and was like,

I gotta get more out of AD if this is gonna work. And AD is leading the league in points and the pain, as we said, leading the league in points per game. And, you know, it's a kindler, gentler, LeBron James, whatever, but this is very encouraging. And I know you're a Celtics guy, but the league is more interesting when the Lakers are good.

And JJ looks to have righted the ship here a little bit in Los Angeles. And Davis is really hard to play against, defend Handel, right? He's, when he's playing at this level, he's one of the six, seven best guys in the league. It makes me think like, you know, they have some, some draft capital, they have some young players, there's some sort of move they could make. Obviously, D'Angelo Russell is going to be on eBay for the next four months as they shop him to anybody. Um, but it makes me think like if I'm them, the way Davis is playing combined with that, you still have LeBron on the team this year and next year, maybe you do sacrifice one

of those extra assets. Cause I look at the West and okay. Okay. See in the Celtics to me are levitating above everybody else in the league. It's, it's like they're in their own league. Then it's a drop off and the Lakers with, you know, one more guy, especially if it was a point guard slash shooter. I think if Davis is going to play like this, you have to think you

could swim in that pool. I didn't think they could swim in that pool a month ago. No, I I'm with you. I think one of the my first piece for the ringers should come out this week, but we're looking at depth. And I'm arguing the depth Bill Simmons is the new MVP of the NBA and it's harder to achieve in this new CBA. But when we look at what separates the Celtics and the Thunder right now and teams like the Wolves is that they go seven, eight, nine deep.

And that is very hard. That is evidence of a very good front office. And that is what we're seeing separating the teams because everybody has a superstar now it seems. All the contenders, I have one or two superstars. Okay, cool. What do you have? And what you talked about in Milwaukee

and what we talked about in Denver is they don't have that the Lakers and sons also struggle a little bit in that department. Would you put the Knicks in there? The Knicks are pretty good in depth. Obviously, I think they're starting fives about as good as it gets. I'm saying putting them in the not enough depth camp. Yeah, so it depends on what you define depth. I think their fourth and fifth guys are great, but below that, Deuce McBride, we're asking a lot of Deuce McBride now. Once Mitchell Robinson gets back,

I think they're relatively deep. So he's hurt though. But I brought this up because you said there's Boston and OKC, and I think that's what it is. And when you look at depth, it's those guys by a long shot. I mean, when you're talking about Peyton Pritchard and Sam Houser and Al Horford coming off your bench, that's a different world than these struggling teams with superstars, including the Lakers, have in those slots.

That's why I loved OKC's over under one seed, every bet that had them winning the West and winning 60 plus games. But I also ended up going over with the Celtics too, because they, when you have, we can give this guy a day off depth. That's like the last frontier of depth. The Celtics and OKC could basically, it's like, OKC lost Hartenstein for five weeks. They're like, all right, we're next guy up. And they have guys, you know, and you watch like the way Wiggins and Wallace are even playing in this first week.

And they go deep with dudes that can come in and actually flip a game, which is what the Celtics have too. So, um, the Lakers though, if they get, if connect can become something of a guy for them, like a 15 to 18 minute, ninth man type guy. Um, and if Rui, if this is real, and I don't trust Rui at all, but maybe this is a little bit real. And then one more trade, like they might actually have enough depth to sustain LeBron games like last night where it's just like, woof, he looks 40 tonight.

I'll represent Rui. Rui is a shooter, man. Rui can fill it up. And LeBron is one of the best three-point creators the world's ever seen. They just need a couple other guys around that. But Rui can shoot the ball. And if Connect, like you said, if he becomes a reliable off-ball threat, I think they can have a good offense.

And with AD, they're gonna be in good shape on defense. So if I gave you, I know it's too fucking early, eight playoff teams, OKC, Minnesota, Phoenix, would you have all three of those in? Definitely. And Dallas? Oh yeah. That's four, those are four definites.

Any team I name after that, you'd be like, ah, I don't know, there might be a playing team, including Denver. He's like be like, I don't know, there might be a playing team, including Denver. It was like, I don't know, there might be a seven seed. If Yoko got her for 12 games, that might be a 41 and 41 team. Until Stefan got her, Golden State was looking good too. And I think the West and the Houston, who knows what we have there? Who knows if Wemby's going to turn it on?

Yeah. The second half of the West is is gonna be a lot of the five five through twelve Yeah, five through twelve. I don't think San Antonio is here that Sacramento I would have been if they had beaten the Lakers like they should have on Saturday night where they're just in control of the first three quarters And then LeBron just leaves his body for 20 minutes and just puts the game. That was unbelievable. Um, all right. What's your fourth thing? Well, let's, I got two Eastern conference ones.

I'll save the Celtics for last. We're going to go to Cleveland. I think Cleveland, you mentioned Orlando. I love this point. I think these small market teams emerging in the Eastern conference, Indiana, Orlando. But I think these small market teams emerging in the Eastern Conference, Indiana, Orlando, but I'm gonna talk about Cleveland. I think they all have a chance to sort of upset

the Knicks and Sixers and slide in. One of those teams could slide into that two slot. And if I had to say right now, I like all three of them. Indiana has been off to a rocky start, hasn't looked great a couple of times. If I had to pick one right now, I'm picking Kenny and the Cavaliers. I'm picking the Cleveland Cavaliers, Bill. They're 4-0. They've won handily. They had

a good roster to begin with. It felt like they were underachieving for a minute there. You remember, a couple of years ago, it felt like they were on the brink of becoming sort of perennial contenders. I mean, last year it felt that way. Yeah., I think they're a really good two way team. Jared Allen is a monster. Evan Mobley gives you like two rim protectors on the court at the same time. And obviously they're back court. If Darius Garland is as good as this, and he's had a hot start, he was great in New York.

But if Darius Garland is playing this well, Donovan Mitchell is playing this well, they're as good as anybody competing for that second spot in New York. But if Darius Garland is playing this well, uh, and Donovan Mitchell's playing this well, they're as good as anybody competing for that second spot in the East. Um, and I, I do believe in Kenny Atkinson and I do believe that this Cavaliers team might be a surprise two or three seed in that Eastern Conference. The Mitchell signing with them long-term, I think really helps the fact that Garland's healthy this year really helps.

Nick's game granted first week of the season, not gonna overreact to it, but I like that they went in there and fucking, they were up five, up six, the whole second half of the fourth quarter, and they just, that was it. They got stops, Brunson missed a couple shots that he normally makes, but they had a real hard time stopping Garland, and there was a couple moments

near the end where Garland had the ball. Like, and he, Mitchell, like, throw him the car keys a couple times and let him do stuff. I also, like, this is one of the reasons we were so high in them in the over-under pod. And I have a lot of Cleveland bets. I have them for the division.

They've been playing together now for a couple years, which I think it's, like, the most simple point you could possibly make, but I do think it matters. Like these guys, it's really hard to have any kind of continuity in the NBA anymore. So I see that with them. And then Orlando is the other one that, uh, they have Palo who's better than anyone on the Cavs, I think. The apologies to Donva Mitchell, but Palo, Palo's talent ceiling, I would put higher than anyone in the Cavs roster. And then this Anthony Black thing that happened last night

was Joel, they put him out there in crunch time, he made two big threes, he gives them size, they weren't afraid to go to him when it mattered. And that was kind of a game changer for me because I was like, oh, I wasn't, I didn't know he was coming to the party. I liked the magic anyway. So I don't know.

I'd like both of those teams, certainly more than Philly as a regular season team, and certainly more than Milwaukee as a regular season team. Well, if the best ability is availability, then Orlando has more abilities than those two older teams in Philadelphia and Milwaukee. So, yeah, I think when we talk about depth, Orlando is in that conversation.

They just have different looks they can throw at you. They seem to be really willful defenders up and down the roster. I like that team a lot. And I think because they're in a small market, nobody talks about the magic, just like the Cavs. The Ringer talks about the magic because we have Steve Cerrutti on board. So we've been carrying most of the Ringer, the magic national torch. Now that the Lakers are good, nobody's ever going to talk about the magic on any national TV station. Well, who do you like who do you like better?

If you had to overreact to one week, Cleveland or Orlando for sneaking into the two or the three seed in the Eastern conference. Good question. Thank you for asking. I thought Cleveland really had a chance to be the two seed and I'm not surprised by what's happened with them because I just thought they were going to be good. I wasn't prepared for the Palo leap that I feel like might be happening. To me last night, he looked a lot like Tatum, like year five, year six, Tatum,

figuring out stuff at the foul line, top of the key, how to set up other guys, how to know what the right time is to just, Oh, I'm just going to the basket now. I have a lane versus like, oh, I'm going to pull this double team over and find somebody. I thought there were a lot of similarities with those guys. And I didn't know if Palo a hundred percent had that in him yet, cause he's so young. Like that took Tatum probably until the 2022 playoffs to even really hint at becoming that guy in a real way. I felt like Palos like might be that guy now. I don't, I was just blown away by the game he had yesterday. I granted it's against Indiana, Indiana sucks defensively. I get it. But, uh,

that was a higher level than I was expecting. Yes. I don't mean to just agree with you on that, but it's, it's totally true. I was not ready for a 50-point game from Paolo. 50 points with like nine rebounds, nine assists. It's a crazy stat line. He has tremendous feel for the game. And then when you watch him in person, it does feel like he's going to be one of these guys the game slows down for. He makes the right read. He makes the right play. He can go get his own. He can make people around him better. the right read, he makes the right play, he can go get his own, he can make people around him better.

And the good news for Orlando is the guys, there's a really good supporting cast already in place there. We talked about KCP enough in this podcast, but that's a nice ad to have on the perimeter of veteran who knows how to win. And you know, I think. Because that is the magic, the thing that jumps out with them is how competitive those dudes are. Suggs, Suggs is another borderline. If you're doing your all NBA sociopath team,

I think he would have to be first team guard. He's a maniac. Like Black hit that go-ahead three and he ran over to him during the timeout and he's just like screaming at him like he was like a boxing hype man or something. He's a maniac, but that whole team is wired that way. Yeah, I think so. So I. He's a maniac, but that whole team is wired that way.

Yeah, I think so. And so I think it's gonna be, I think they're deeper than the Cavs, which I love the Cavs roster. I think there's a little bit of weakness in Cleveland at the wing position. I liked how they used Dean Wade to guard Brunson a little bit, but I wish they had another sort of three and D wing in that starting group or in their rotation to go to.

But yeah, I think those two teams aren't getting enough respect. And if the first week is an indication that might change here in the first month of the season, Bill. I so Franz only played 11 minutes in the game yesterday. And they were able to, to kind of, I'm looking at the minutes now. Still feels like they're one guy short in that Gary Harris, Jed Howard kind of area. But I also feel like there's a lot of trade bait possibilities with this team.

It's also a team that has all their picks. So there's moves that they can make, but if you were going to give me Orlando and Cleveland on this end and Philly and Milwaukee on the other end, I would just pick the Orlando Cleveland thing, not just for the regular season, but for playoffs too. I love young durability and competitiveness. Those are all things that we know works. It worked with OKC last year. Every time we say, no, no, they're not going to be ready yet, it always happens a year earlier than a year later.

So, the Palo piece though, remember last year they lose the game seven and the excuse after the game, which wasn't even really an excuse, it was like, man, too much on Palo, too much. He had to create everything. It was such a burden on him. Last time he looked like he was,

he was like, I've spent the whole summer being ready to be the guy and now I'm going to be ready for this. But uh, yeah, I, he's better, certainly better than I ever thought he was going to be. Remember we were talking about him versus Chet versus Jabari. I, I don't think anybody saw this. I know people love Palo, but nobody saw like what happened last night as the ceiling. I thought that was, so Rudy, are you on this?

Saruti, did anyone see this with Palo? Like even like the most bullish crazy Palo fan, did anyone see what happened last night as a ceiling? I think Rosillo before the draft because I mean, infamously, I guess I was a chat guy. I still feel good about chat. Not a bad opinion. Going to be a good player. I think that's fine. My my thing is I just feel like both teams got the player that they probably needed long term.

But no, I mean, I think the thing that the worry about Paola was like, was he going to be like this inefficient, mellow type score? And I think, you know, early on, so much was thrust upon him that he like he was like, oh, no, is this going to be like just a high volume, everything guy. And that's why I got so defensive in the playoffs last year about the turnover. Cause I'm like, cool. He's playing in this hostile Cleveland environment. And in his second year where he's arguably at times the best player on the floor, as

you said, Donovan Mitchell has an argument, but like that's wild stuff. Like that's, there are not that many guys in the history of the league that have been asked to do that and have like met the challenge in year two. So, you know, I think everybody thought he was going to put up numbers, but like, was the efficiency and the winning going to be behind it? So that's the question of that. And it's coming this early. That's what's so crazy about it. Yeah. What is he 20?

He's 22, right? Yes. Yeah. That I, it feels like the basketball, the sport of basketball has slowed down for him a tiny bit. And this is why it's so dangerous to do the overreactions after week one. I don't think that's an overreaction.

Like he, you can tell sometimes when a guy has gone from point B to point C or point D to point D, whatever, it feels like he's at a different point of whatever the journey was than he was in that Cleveland series. 22 in two weeks, by the way. So still, wow. Oh my God.

Wow. I don't Kirk. Where's he in the trade value rankings now? I 21 year old with the point game is pretty high. Like he's gotta be like top five to seven now. I got down now makes me want to do another rankings. I think you had to do it. I had him eight, but I think he's got to be higher.

Like to me, Palo versus Edwards. I would have had Edwards ahead of him. No question last summer. And now it's like, all right, I got to really sit down and sketch this out and look at their ages. And, um, I just, cause we saw it happen with the Celtics last year. You can build an actual championship team around a guy with this specific set of skills.

The difference is he's not as good of a defender as Tatum is, at least not yet. Tatum was always like a really good defensive player. Did you expect that Anthony Black hitting the two threes piece of the season? I mean, I don't want to toot my own horn, but like kind of. So I was, I literally called Rossello after the game last night, cause we were both so excited about it and I was calling for Anthony black to play in the

playoffs last year. I was like, what's the worst that could happen? I mean, you know, nothing against Gary Harris and Oh, he's not your favorite player, but he's like, it can't get much worse offensively than what it was in some of those games when he's like, Oh, for seven from worse offensively than what it was in some of those games. And he's like, oh, for seven from three. So it's like, throw black out there, see what could happen. I mean, when he was coming out of the draft, it was like, Hey, high IQ player,

like big, you know, can guard multiple positions, but like the shot is atrocious. So the fact that he's even like, the shot looks pretty good. And the fact that he's making them semi consistently and two, as you said, two big threes last night, that he's going to be consistently and two, as you said, two big threes last night, that he's going to be a factor. He should be a factor. And I, I'm, you throw like trade ships. I mean, it depends who the guy is, but like, I'm kind of, I'm holding that guy close to the vest. Yeah. Cause he fits in with the identity they have. As you know, Kirk, you know, I'm the body language doctor. I thought it was very instructive. How Orlando's bench was reacting to the black 3s.

That's right. They were fucking losing their shit. It was like combination, we love this guy, but also like, yo, if he's going to make those, holy shit, we might actually be really good this year. So I thought I was really encouraging. I know Franz left the game last night. What's the Franz update, Saruti? I don't, it doesn't seem like anything serious, but How's he looked to heading into this like did he carry over the Germany love or no? So here's the thing is like

Palos become a better shooter a more efficient shooter Sugs has improved his three-point shooting every single year I mean, he's like a 40% three-point you're taking like what over five a game or something It's absurd Anthony black has become a better shooter. We can't, who's, we can't get this guy to figure out Franz's shot, who's the, who's the shooting coach? I don't know. I should know the name, but like, he's the one guy

where it's like, what's kind of going on. And it is a little weird. Like he's kind of like Suggs is kind of ascending to that number two guy. Oh, wow. Not, not, not in points. It'll never be in points, but just as like an all around feel for the game because of the defensive end.

You know, I still believe in Frans. I think it's going to be fine, but it is a little weird because everybody else seems to be like kind of growing, especially in the shooting department. He's the one that's kind of regressed. So if you, if black comes through for you, maybe you don't need Dennis Schroeder because he, he was auditioning for you this week with the 29 point game. It's like, hey Orlando. We're good, we're good.

Unless it's an obvious upgrade, there's not. I like the core, man. This team loves playing, and you mentioned the Suggs thing and him running over to Anthony Black. They genuinely love playing with each other. The wins are great, it's cool, but the vibes are just,

there might not be a better vibe, seemingly. Yeah, Suggs is like a wolf of Wall Street character Kirk when you were in front office Did you guys that you were with the Spurs? Did they did they like look for stuff like bench chemistry bench reactions as something that actually mattered? Dude, I remember when we drafted Derek Whatever year that was, we watched all of his clips for when he got fouls called on him, and we watched his body language reacting to all the rough calls against him. He was very demonstrative after all these calls.

He was like one of these guys that, but yeah, body language is really important to people like pop and RC, of course. So you, you, you try to gain insights into the psyche and competitive nature of all of these guys and the body language doctors known this for years. Uh, but yeah, we, we watch that stuff. We, one of the reasons you scout and you go to games early bill is you watch how guys warm up, you interact with their coaches, you talk to, you see how these guys are as employees, as teammates, as leaders, as followers.

That stuff is very important. And I agree with Saruti, the vibes in this group, maybe with the exception of Gary Harris, am I allowed to say that? It feels like they love each other. They're young, they're fun loving. I wouldn't trade anybody by the way, including Gary Harris. Uh, but I think this team has the body language doctor I would, I would confer with, but it feels like they would be near hit the, near his, the top of his power rankings.

No question. I think they're right in the same spot. Okay. See was in last year. Let's see how well we can do. Let's see how many wins we can bank. Let's let Palo cook. Everything's see how well we can do. Let's see how many wins we can bank. Let's let Palo cook. Everything's a bonus. Can we get to round two? Can we, can we put together some playoff wins, but let's not really figure out what we have until the next off season would be my

recommendation. But all right, we're going to take one more break and then do Goldsbury's last thing. All right, coming back, you want to talk about the Celtics. What do you got? I have to talk. It's what I've been writing about for 10 years now with you and other places and in books is like these guys are elevating three point shooting to another level. Like if we go from the splash brothers Brothers to the D'Antoni Hardin Industrial Complex in Houston, we think it can't get any higher. Your team, Bill Simmons, is taking it higher. They are shooting over 50 threes a game and

they're making 43% of them. I'm not sure either of those numbers are sustainable, but I'm not copping out here. I expect this team to break three point shooting records by the end of the season. I think they'll break the record for most attempts and most makes. Um, and Missoula ball is not only won a championship, but it's doing it by extending Darrell Mori and Stephen Curry's legacy deep into the 2020s and, and, and proving once and for all the three point revolution isn't dead. In fact, the best teams in the league are still finding ways to, to leverage three point shooting and profound new ways.

So your team, I think is becoming the new splash brothers or sort of hardened rockets. It's like the splash family. Yeah. It was interesting. Last night they brought it against the bucks they brought in Jordan Walsh. And I was like, what the fuck, man, this guy, he's not a good enough three point shooter. Doesn't fit into our system. And he took a couple. He missed a couple. But, uh, but it's surprising when they play anyone. Yeah. Well,

it's shocking when they put anyone in who can't make an open three, you know, and they have an embarrassment of riches all over the place. It's, it's, uh, the three point shooting, the fact that they don't have poor Zingas and you don't even really notice, they just have so much depth that now they're paying for the depth. They're going to have a crazy luxury tax bill. I love, uh, I love what I've seen from Tatum and Brown early on Tatum fixed the hitch, which thank God, I think he's a legitimate MVP candidate. Michael Pena wrote about that for the ringer.com today.

And I completely agree. If, if they're going to be in the sixties for wins, you got to really seriously look at whoever the best players, but I love everything I've seen from Tatum. Um, and then Jaylin, I feel like has taken all the shit that he was doing last year. And it's maybe even like just a hair better. Um, and the two of them together, it's everything Steve Kerr always told me about, uh, the year after you win the title, that first two months, the next season, you're just like, you're

so locked in, you have so much confidence. And that's, that's, it's gotten to the point, like I would be surprised when they lose, you know, which I feel the same way about OKC. We're like, oh, OKC lost last night? That's usually when you know you have a 16 win team. Where it's like, whoa, shit, the Celtics lost two in a row? Like it's shocking. Yeah, yeah.

And I think like when Sam, Sam Alzer, but I mean, Peyton Pritchard scores 28 points. That's a classic indicator too. I think when you have a bench player come out and just change a game like that, and somebody who could, you would count on doing that more than once or twice a month. Yeah. Um, and, and I just think they are the deepest team in the NBA, not to beat a dead horse, but as you, as you mentioned earlier, it's the three point depth in particular.

If you want to play for Joe Mazzullo, you have to be able to shoot from 25 feet. You have to want to shoot it. He gets mad at his players when they don't shoot them, which is kind of the mentality that you need to have. It's like a lot of guys in the league want to pass up those shots, and he actually reprimands his guys and you'll hear them talking about, he gets mad when we pass up an open look. That's very different than what was happening just 10 years ago around this league.

But I think they're gonna break records in three-point shooting, potentially offensive efficiency again, and challenge conventional wisdom further. How many threes can we do here? I think over half of their shots are three point shots at this point, which is crazy. Yeah, so you figure they're taking 53 as a game

and making 40% of them. That's 20, that's 23 as a game, right? 82 games in a year. So could they get to like 1700 threes for the season? Like it's conceivable. I don't know what the record is, but I guarantee nobody's ever had 1600. Do they have five guys shooting seven or more in a game right now? Um, I think clay Thompson's only done seven or more in a game, like half of

his years in the NBA. So it's like, it's like a normal clay Thompson year, but they have five of them. So it is sort of like the splash family. Um, and it is to the, you don't, I remember first talking about this two years ago, but there was some dialogue about it the last couple of days on the internets. That there's a same nest of these styles now that becomes boring during the regular season. I don't, I'm so used to it now. It doesn't seem any different to me. And I still feel like there's enough aberration type of players ranging from, you know,

John Morant to Cam Thomas to there's some post up guys. We still have like the Shungun types. It's still, it doesn't feel like just up. Everybody's chucking up threes. We'll see who wins. But do you see any of that? Yeah, I play both sides of that. I think there's never been this much talent in the league. And ultimately that's why I turn on the TV set.

I love watching the guys, but I'd love to see the NBA move the line. I think it's time to move the line. I think the shot has become too easy for too many guys. I've been really vocal about that. I think the first time I wrote about it was in 2014 at Grantland after the Spurs won the title. And I think it's only, I don't say it's ugly.

I don't want to say that, but I think the shot has become too easy for too many. And I'd like to see it a little more difficult for the average player. And it's only gonna make Stephen Curry and Damian Lowe more valuable or Jason Tatum. Guys who can shoot from deeper will become more valuable in a world where the shot's harder.

So I think it actually celebrates those guys a little bit more. I don't know, I think, I don't know, what do you think? You think it's okay. You think everything is hunky dory. You don't think it's too many threes. I always joke, Bill, that it should be called the two point line. Once we take more than half of our shots from behind it. But yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm eager to hear what you think on this one, actually.

I, this is the first time I've seriously started thinking about, do we have to fix the corner three a little bit? Do you make the arc you change it a little bit so when it goes right to the corner? Maybe the line goes so that a corner three no longer exists and you have to be Three four feet over from the corner For it to be a corner three that that would be the only thing that I could see five, six years from now. If they're going to tweak it, I could see the whole arc of the three point line. Instead of it just being like almost like a semi circle, the way it looks now being different where it kind of gets, it hits the corner in a way that you

corner threes are gone. It goes up higher so that like the peak of it is like 28 feet instead of 24 or whatever, and maybe that's where we're heading. But I also, I don't know if that would help the product because then it's just guys heaving these long shots and these long rebounds, and I think that would cause too many

unintended consequences. But you could tell me, could they experiment with the corner three for preseason? See what it looks like? I wouldn't be against it. I don't think I've ever shared this, but in 2019, after my book came out, Adam Silver had reached out to me and said,

will you come present some of this stuff to the league? And we had suggested two different three-point lines. We got to the competition committee and we were gonna try it in the G League, Bill. We're gonna try two or three different looks in the G league and I'd love for them to revisit. One was to get rid of the corner three entirely, which is very drastic.

And in fact, I think it was Brad Stevens who was on the competition committee. He was like, hell no, they'll never see a slam dunk again. This is gonna ruin spacing. So, you know, you have to see it. You have to see how the league reacts to these things, because it could end up making the product worse.

Like hand up, like some of these ideas might not be good ideas for the product. And I think the better one is to keep the corners where they are, but extend the three point arc, which is currently 23.75. Get it out to 25 or 26 feet, like you described. But again, you're exactly right. Does that just mean we're watching more miss threes, the same number of threes,

but fewer makes, cause that's not great. So I think we'd have to see it in practice to see what it would look like before we would sort of engineer the right product. What I would say is every other league on the planet that matters, the W college basketball fee, but they've all moved the line back this century. The NBA is the only one that hasn't. Um, but yeah, I think that's going to be a bigger conversation as your Celtics continue to rain down, uh, dozens of threes on their

opponent on a nightly basis. One other thing I was thinking is maybe there's a limit for threes. Once you make 20, you just can only make two pointers from that point on. You've basically used up your 20 and that's it. Like maybe that's where it goes. That would be awesome. You kind of like that one. I like that one. I like it. It's like, I don't like timeouts. Sorry, that's your last three. So I hope you're ready to post up poor Zingas for the rest of the game. You know, it's going

to be, it would be wild to see how teams would change their offense. Yeah. Maybe they wouldn't shoot threes in the, in the first quarter. We didn't, I don't feel like we vehemently disagreed on anything. Do you have anything you want to vehemently disagree on? Because unfortunately we see a lot of basketball the same way. I'll just throw a couple of things out of you and you can tell me if you vehemently disagree. I'll just throw a couple of things out of you and you could tell me if you vehemently disagree. Ryan Dunn? In the running for most impactful rookie?

They knew this kid could defend. They knew the kid could defend. The shot is a, let's just say, a work in progress. And I think... Looks way better. Let's just say a work in progress. And I think. Looks way better. Dude, Lou Dort, same thing, right? Now Lou Dort makes a lot of money because why? He made the shot work.

So I think this kid could be a long-term NBA player, a rotation player for a very good Phoenix team, but he's got to be able to start making some shots. He's been making them. Yeah. So I think if his three-point shot, um, that was the only question in my mind, the defense was NBA ready. Um, so I think, I think they got something if the, if he's making those threes. My guy, Eddie Johnson, that cranky Homer who's also on serious XM radio. He was, he flagged the Ryan Dunn thing like a month ago.

And he was like, and he, we have like a really fun relationship, but he was so adamant and excited about how good this kid was in pre-season. I was like, I don't feel like Eddie's making this up. Like he's like super duper duper excited. And it turns out like, you know, you see him out there in crunch time for them.

Interesting wrinkle for them. I still don't, I don't know what they're gonna do about a center and I'm not sure it's gonna matter in the regular season. I still think they'll get to a 50 plus wins. All right, next. I'll try to start one more argument here. Chicago, a more pleasant league pass experience than you were expecting.

Demar de Rosen is not there anymore. I don't know if it's the Ewing theory or the Demar theory or whatever you want to say here. They're definitely playing harder on defense. Kobe White feels like a more enjoyable presence. The more time he's getting in this offense, the more he's a fun guy. Zach Levine, maybe not Vucevic. Uh, you know, I don't know. Um, what are you going to say?

I'll say no, I think I'm going to say no. If I have five games to watch and they're probably not in my four box. You know what I mean? I'll just say no. And for the sake of storing an argument, they were a cross-off for me as a league pass team, but I actually like the ball, the giddy Vucevic still feels like there's this little tiny foreign center thing to be unlocked with him with passing at the top of the key. And now guys are moving around.

It's not so like old school DeRosa gets the ball and everybody kind of stands around. I don't know about they're on my radar. They have some players I like watching and I'm still rooting for Giddies to become a guy because I like, I just think he's so different than all the other players. It's like we need, you need weird players to succeed like him with his kind of skill set. So we'll see we'll see, uh, could cam Thomas lead the league in scoring for real? I think the number has to be at least 32 a game. Cause there's no way Luca goes under 32 a game. The only, the only way I would happen is if Dallas is just blowing teams out and

he's not playing the same minutes per game, He's just an established 33 a game now. So let's say he drops to 32. I think that's the number. There is a way, but I think it's very, very unlikely. But Brooklyn in part because Brooklyn's playing better than I thought they would be billed. They're playing harder. They're, they got a new coach too. And it looks like they have new vibes.

They're frisky and all Ben Simmons jokes aside, like he's looked okay. And he just won't shoot. He doesn't. And they have to take them out with six minutes left. Cause he's just not going to ever want to take a foul shot ever. It is wild. Uh, but camp Thomas is a not afraid to shoot, uh, Mr. Greenlight, I think there's a path there, but I would be shocked.

I would say this is Lucas. This is Lucas here. You stole the money on Luca. Well, they're playing tonight after we taped this. So you talked about American stars being worried about them. Counter, a lot of American stars. I like watching right now. Tatum and Brown, Edwards, Palo, Brunson, Halliburton,

Ja, LaMelo, rumorsson, Halliburton, Ja, LaMelo, rumors of a LaMelo comeback, Booker and Fox, Mitchell, Zion, when he plays. Yeah, last time we talked about- I'm feeling better about the Americans. Well, so are the casinos. I noticed that both Jason Tatum and Anthony Davis have rightfully surged up the MVP futures list.

And I think Tatum is playing better. He looks a lot better, you know, better than anybody when he's taking good shots and they're going in the three point shots, especially. John Moran. LaMelo has been one of the best stories of the first week. Again, new coach, new vibes. I think that's one of the themes of our podcast today. And Charlotte has new coach, new vibes. I think that's one of the themes of our podcast today. And Charlotte has new coach, new vibes.

And he's benefited from that. And I can't wait to see him and Brandon Miller playing together. But yeah. Tatum is five to one, by the way. He was 13 to one before the season started and it's dropped now to five to one. Third best outs on Fandl.

There you go. And I think, hey, as a hardworking American myself, I love to watch Americans dominate. Yeah. You counted out the Americans. I don't know. Um, Houston needs to make a trade. Yes or no.

Houston has one of the weirdest rosters in the league. I need to see a little bit more, but for the sake of argument, yes, they have tradable pieces. I'm not sure which of these young players is really going to stay there. It doesn't feel like Shangoon and Jalen Green should be on the same basketball team. Fred Van Fleet, Dylan Mitchell. And yet they extended both of them. Yeah, they couldn't be. And one of the cool things about weird, you said weird basketball guys, like these are guys, the fact that they're on the same team and they're from such different parts of the world and they play well together, but Freddie Van Fleet, Dylan Brooks, like these guys are just, how are they all on the same team?

So yeah, I'll go with yes. They need to make some changes there. I think they're a two for one or a three for one, but I felt that way before the season. Memphis is not a playoff team. I'm just throwing that out there for argument's sake. I'm not saying whether I believe it, I'm not saying over there. I believe it or not.

I can get there. I'll just for the sake of argument, I say they are a playoff team. I think they have too much talent. I don't think they're as good as they were a few years ago. I think Steven Adams remains sort of an unheralded piece of their success from two years ago with just the physicality and the rebounding, particularly the second chance points that they really just depended on. And we'll see what Edie can do. But I think there are 60.

I think the Memphis Grizzlies are going to be the 60, the last non-playing team in the West, if I had to say. I'm less bullish on them than I was. And I went under on their over under because I thought it was too high. But, um, I, this is why it's the first week of the season. I'm, I'm just watching them. All right. I'll have a harder opinion than them in the 20 game.

Are you worried about New Orleans yet by the way? A little bit, but this Jordan Hawkins kid has caught my eye and And this kid, he looks like a natural shooter. Yeah. What do they do? It just feels like he needs to play. He needs to play. And I mean, I don't know if that factors into the Ingram decision they have or trying to get off of that, but dude, I love that kid. And he looks like a shooter, like one of the best jump shooters early in this season.

Uh, and it doesn't look like an accident. He was one of the best shooters coming out of the draft. I'm not worried about them. Um, I'm always worried about Zion staying healthy, but I'm not worried about them. I think they're going to figure it out. Um, but they have like a couple of pieces. They just need to figure out rotations in my opinion. What are your thoughts?

Too early. I want to, uh, I'm with you in Hawkins. I just feel I was talking to somebody about it today. Somebody has to be disappointed in the West. We're not going to have 11 playoff teams. There's gotta be somebody who, when we get to mid December, we're like, holy shit, I can't believe that team is, you know, 10 and 15. It's going to be somebody. And I have a couple suspects,

but I want to watch for another week. The Clippers being a little better, at least in week one than I expected, is another monkey wrench. Cause I just had them penciled in as a bottom three team, but Hardin's like, this is great. I have the ball all the time. They have a bunch of defensive guys who are like, this is great.

Hardin has the ball all the time. All I have to do is worry about this. And then norm pals like, this is great. Every once in a while, they just let me cook. So I still don't know if they're good, but I am also a little concerned that, cause that was one of my locks. I had them under 37 and a half. I'm a little concerned that, because that was one of my locks. I had them under 37 and a half. I'm a little concerned they might be more of a professional basketball team than that. Well, Ty Lue is a great coach,

and I think James Harden's in his happy place. He sort of alluded to it. He seems super pumped. Undeniably the leader of the team right now. And if he feels that way and Ty lose the coach and their defense is playing like this. Yeah, I agree. Like you're saying, there's six guaranteed spots. There's the two play in playoff spots of four play in teams. I think Denver, Denver and the Clippers, I think I would say.

I think Denver's going to be a play in team. That's probably my biggest overreaction from week one. I find it hard to believe they're gonna be one of the six best teams in the West, because I don't know what the fixes are for them. Milwaukee, you can talk yourself into it a little faster, because the East is such a, you know, once you get past the top eight,

it's just, there's seven crummy teams in there. But- Have you been to the Intuit facility yet? No, I'm going this weekend. Okay. We look forward to it. I'll report back. I hope it's, I hope it's a better experience than the Atlas, uh, Kurt Goldsberry. So your first piece is this week on the ringer.com. I hope so. Yeah. We got to make sure that our editors agree with that, but yeah,

I'll file it tomorrow. Okay. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thanks Bill. I understand or agree with that, but yeah, I'll file it tomorrow. Okay. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, Bill. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to John Jastremski. Thanks to Kurt Goldsberry.

Thanks to Kyle Crayton and Steve Cerruti as well. Thanks to Cerruti for popping on the podcast too. Don't forget to check out the rewatchables, Halloween four. Don't forget about the live show in Denver, which tickets will be going on sale on Friday at the ringer comm slash events Look forward to seeing you and I will see you on this podcast Thursday night Halloween my favorite day can't wait I'm gonna see them on the wayside, let them say I don't have a few years with them. On the wayside, on the brunson, let them say I don't have a few years with them.

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