The Bill Simmons Podcast - Tiger, NBA Finals, and Remembering Frank Deford With Joe House and Bryan Curtis (Ep. 219)

Episode Date: May 30, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Joe House and Bryan Curtis to talk about Tiger Woods's latest media frenzy (01:30) and make NBA Finals predictions (23:00). Finally, Bill and Bryan take time to remember the late Frank Deford (44:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Black on the Air, Cousin Sal's new podcast, Against All Odds, and Joe House's podcast, Shack House, which is going to be talking about the Tiger Woods thing today. I might ask you about that when you're on this podcast, too. Here's Pearl Jam. We are going to be talking about the Tiger Woods thing today. I might ask you about that when you're on this podcast too. Here's Pearl Jam. We are going to start it up. All right. In studio with me, Brian Curtis, editor at large, TheRinger.com. On the phone, Joe House, longtime BS Podcast Hall of Famer, host of the Shack House Podcast.

A lot going on today. House, I know you're talking about Tiger on the Shack House pod, but let's talk about it with Brian Curtis for a second. It just made me sad. I don't want Tiger to be involved in memes. I don't want to see his mugshot face floating around on these different internet things that get sent around the world. This is a sad ending now.

I derive no joy whatsoever from this. Not one drop for me. None. Yeah, if you look at the word cluster, isn't that what the millennials do these days? They create word clusters based on what word appears in stories. Yeah. The most predominant word, the word that's gigantic in the middle in all caps is sad.

Every single story that I've seen out there from the golf commentariat as well as well as you know the the broader sports uh... punditry at large you know everybody's observing how sad this is uh... there are a couple of curiosities i think that's the story kind of develops uh... there will be a couple things to kind of focus in on it was slightly weird to me that it was important to him in his statement to say that alcohol wasn't involved. And instead to sort of, you know, posit that it was the combination,

an unexpected reaction to the combination of prescription medication. Not sure that's much better. Yeah. Like when you're asleep at your car and you're so incapacitated that you can't drive, I don't really think it matters what's running through your blood, just that you were that incapacitated and you had to pull over. Yes, and the other thing is 3 a.m. I mean, what's the World Wide West rule? Don't chase the night. Don't chase the night.

What's your take, Curtis? Is there any athlete we have gone through more emotions with than tiger woods no i mean now we've reached this new thing right i mean who else in american history have we hit all these things with from the pure joy when he started yeah to kind of wishing for him to fail to the affairs to now this when, when we're saying, oh, we can't even take joy in this. We're just purely sad that it's what it is. Who else had that many stages? The only one PC that I can come up with is OJ. Oh.

Yeah. That just made me sad. Jesus. But I don't even think we, with OJ, well, we had the extreme murder portion of his career. Very extreme. Extreme. I don't think we had the sort of slow wind down, the breakdown of his, you know, his body, the affair thing where it's like, you know, all these horrible feelings that we have for the guy are coming out of the box. You know, the press conference thing like Tiger had.

I mean. He seems like a guy who's been lost now for eight years. And he was a golf machine forever. And then golf got taken away because first his body broke down. Then he had all this personal stuff. He couldn't quite get it back. His body broke down even worse. In these last five years, he seems sad.

I know you've talked about it on your pod for the last year and you guys were in the corner you and shackleford about here it comes he's coming back this time it's going to be it we all wanted it so bad every single sign from these last four years said that this guy's body had broken down and it was not coming back. Did you really believe he was ever coming back? Yes, I did. The performance that he put on in December at his own little event, this charity event, the Hero Challenge down in the Bahamas, where he went out and shot the best round of the day, and I can't remember the number off the top of my head.

It was either 65 or 66, a bogey-free round where he was rolling in putts unexpectedly from all kinds of different lengths, and he had that hop and a step, and his look was super focused. I thought that that was going to be potentially the launching pad into a spectacular 2017 in the sense that he was going to be able to play a couple times a month. And then January rolled around, and he missed the cut at Torrey, but it was only a couple holes that undid him. And then he got in the airplane and flew to Dubai, which probably in retrospect was a mistake. Now, I know that there

was an appearance fee incentive there, and reestablishing himself on the world stage after signing brand new ball and equipment deals with TaylorMade and Bridgestone made a lot of sense, but the dude stunk in his first round out there, and then he just withdrew because the weather forecast through the rest of the tournament was bad, at least the next couple days. And it was clear he was walking awkwardly out there on the golf course, and he blamed some of it on the jet travel.

And that was really it. How many back surgeries? Four? Four now. Yeah. I mean, I don't think anyone should ever get back surgery unless they're just completely incapacitated. I think Steve Kerr would agree with me on this. I don't know how bad Tiger's initial situation was, but just doesn't seem like it's a great list with the back surgery. Then you throw in his plant knee, the right knee. That's the knee that he had to have all the other surgeries on. Once a guy gets operated on, I don't know, nine times, that seems like a lot. That's my biggest fear with Blake Griffin. Blake Griffin's

27. He's been under the knife all these different times. And, you know, I, I, I feel like we should have seen this coming and I, and, and we kind of didn't want to see it coming. Right, Brian? Oh, yeah. I mean, when I talk about emotions, we're rooting for the comeback. The only reason I think, and I'll defer to House on all matters of golf commentary, that it has to happen, right? Even if it's just a rando tournament, that he comes back and wins,

like a colonial like we had this last week. I mean, it just feels like it has to happen. It's the next sports story. How are we not going to get one more moment to be like, oh, Tiger, we love you, buddy. That was great. Is it really? This is going to be it? Mugshot? Yeah, usually it either

you have the sports movie comeback or you have the complete flame out. And this was really neither this was a slow steady fall to where we ended up on memorial day which somehow was the second holiday that he's had issues with but um it was like this eight year steady slow march to this point not you wouldn't wasn't it wouldn't make a good documentary, I don't think. It wouldn't make a good sports movie either. It's in the middle.

I don't know what it is. And I think that's why the emotions are so heightened, because we're all struggling with it, right? There's no sports movie. The music's not swelling. Here he comes, Ben Hogan, back from the car accident, right? We got it, we got it, we got it. Now it's like we don't know what to think.

Well, hopefully, if you're a glass half full kind of guy like I am, especially when it comes to the Tigre, hopefully we're in the wistful montage. He's a lot of long looks out the window while it's raining outside. He's on the train. He's working out on the treadmill. He's raining outside. He's on the train. He's working out on the treadmill. He's lifting weights. That's the montage here.

And you have to remember, he's only 41. You can be good at golf in your 40s. There's lots of guys who are good at golf in their 40s. The forecasted timeline for him to come back after this last surgery is, again, like November, December. So he could play again in this event down in the Bahamas where he kind of whet all of our appetites again. And so, again, if you want a glass half full, you don't have to throw the dirt on the coffin yet.

Yeah. I think it's really tough for these guys when they've hit a certain point that only a few of them have ever hit. Because MJ's had his own issues. You think of post-MJ, after retiring, then he comes back, 02 and 03, then he retires again and really struggled to find that same level of competitiveness, led to that crazy Hall of Fame speech, which was the first time we all kind of looked at each other and said,

oh, wow, this guy's in kind of a dark place and i don't know when when you've reached heights like that and you are just the og tiger hit heights that i'm not even positive lebron has hit like in my lifetime i feel like it's tiger ali, and Jordan were the only three I ever saw got to that kind of invincible level. Maybe Brady after this last Super Bowl where just everybody agreed, wow, we're never seeing anybody like this person again. Yeah, and Tiger hit a mystical stage that LeBron never hit. He won the US Open with a torn ACL. Nobody said LeBron is Gandhi, But you could almost believe it with Tiger. You could almost believe it.

That's right. I mean, there was a moment when it was a legitimate conversation about who was more popular or more well-recognized, not necessarily popular. Tiger Woods or Barack Obama, kind of worldwide. Who do more people know? Do they know Tiger or do they know Barack? That was 2008, right? Yeah, you're right. Yeah.

Yeah. do more people know do they know tiger that was 2008 right yeah you're right yeah yeah um so i think when that gets pulled away from you and you've been disgraced the way he was after the uh thanksgiving incident and he loses his family and and that the one he never says really anything interesting in interviews and i think he's managed to be a closed book for his entire career that one time with the charlie pierce profile in like 96 97 and he let loose and charlie ran some of the jokes and that was it tiger closed the door um he the one thing that i gleaned from these last round of interviews was he just kept pushing his family how important his kids were how i want to be i love being there for my kids i drive my kids and he just kept pushing his family how important his kids were how oh i want to be i love being there for my kids i drive my kids and he just kept was kids kids kids it was like

he was like this lost guy this was the one thing he could grab on was that he was a dad and don't forget the santa claus tweet right where you had the uh the little beard he also alan shibnick from sports illustrated had a tweet over the last 24 hours where he said Tiger was just kind of coming out of his shell a little bit because probably because he was so desperate. Yeah. And was kind of giving a little more to journalists and being a little bit better. And you could see him kind of like thinking, oh, I got I got to give more because nobody cares. But it was a strange choice of journalists, right? It was.

I think it was actually Shipnick, right? In the in the in the last big Sports Illustrated piece. Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that wasn't strange. But there was another one. He was very revealing. What magazine was that?

I think it was Time. Yeah, Time magazine. And then there was another. I thought it was like, what was it, House? It was a foreign magazine, right? I thought there was one he gave. I don't remember. He did a thing with Wright Thompson also,

or maybe Wright Thompson did a thing with right thompson also or maybe right thompson did a piece he didn't he conspicuously didn't do a thing with right thompson yeah yeah he didn't he was right yeah yeah yeah so yeah i don't know and i and i don't know where this goes for him i i agree with house i think it's weird that they were so adamant that it wasn't drinking. Like, that's a worse sin than all these meds. And it was like, he was on meds. I had a friend of mine email me today who was like, I've done some drugs. I've never heard of three of these drugs.

Like, these were like heavy, heavy prescription drugs. And it makes me wonder, like, you know, how, how like is it going to come out he had like a serious prescription drug dependency right that's that's kind of the background here yeah because you're talking about somebody whose body was in a lot of pain i don't want to speculate on this i'm just i'm guessing like if it leads to the point where you're at on your in front of your wheel asleep on the side of the road at three in the morning you have a bunch of different prescription drugs running through you that leads me to believe that over the last six seven years as his body broke down you know if we're doing mad libs sad tiger thing that happens yeah that would be the obvious one to put in right next absolutely

prescription i i've been addicted to the breast bar period. Yeah. And it happens and it's happened to a lot of people. And you go from, oh, my back hurts. Take this to our, I'll take eight of these instead of four. And I'm going to take 16 and it spirals. And it would certainly explain, you know, a lot, but as, as has said, he's only 41. I can't quit tiger. It's like, it's like broke back only 41. I can't quit Tiger. It's like broke back off mountain. I can't quit Tiger yet. I still feel like maybe this will be the wake-up call.

Maybe this will be the one that gets him back. Because no matter how much your body is broken down, the hand-eye is still there. And we saw Nicholas win the Masters in 86 with a broken body, basically, and a pot belly, and he'd had back surgery. It's not inconceivable that this can come back, but man, it feels... What would you put the odds, Hess? Oh, not great.

I mean, the other thing, I'm glad you mentioned Nicholas. He was 46 when he won that Masters, I believe. But in any event, yeah, odds of coming back 15-1 at best, I would say. 15-1. To come back and do anything? To be relevant again on a weekend in a major that mattered. Oh, my God, that's much higher than 15-1. Relevant in a major?

Because the amount of work that has to go into that, the lead-up to that, I mean, we were just wanting him to play competitive tour golf this coming season, and he had invested all of the time and all of the signs were good through the balance of 2016, all the way up to the moment where he shot that bogey-free low score of the day. Again, it was only against 19 other competitors. At his event down in the Bahamas, it was like, okay, this is the thing. We watched the round. He scrambled around.

He hit driver well. His length was there. He was hitting the ball as far as any of the other guys. So, like, this was the marker to demonstrate that he's going to, you know, he can go ahead and compete again. But, like, competing in a major is a whole other animal. I mean, the odds of that are, like, 50 to 1, I would say. We're taking a quick break to talk about Credit Wise from Capital One.

You know what? Numbers are great. Whip war. How many Masters did Tiger win? What was he up to? Like, was it six? He won at least three. God, you know somebody's great when you can't remember how many Masters they won.

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Last note on Tiger. If this is 15 years ago, I was thinking about this because Frank DeFord died yesterday. Obviously, we're going to talk about that. That's one of the reasons I'm going to have Brian on. If this whole saga happens 25 years ago i was thinking about this because frank deford died yesterday obviously we're going to talk about that that's one of the reasons i'm going to have brian on if this whole saga happens 25 years ago brian how is it how how how is the coverage different how is our perception of what's going on different who um i think this story is pretty much the same, this part of the Tiger story. The mugshot, we don't probably see it quite as much 15 years ago. It's not as easy to see.

Certainly 20 years ago, pre-internet, it wouldn't be passed around in quite that same joyous way that that mugshot was passed around yesterday i think his previous thing is the one that would have been really different because that would have been it would have been interesting to see how much the the respectable media really touched it we would have probably heard from one one or two fewer waffle house waitresses than we actually did just because of some of that stuff burbled up through tabloidy kind of things. It would have been harder to know just how big his affairs were and to get all the gruesome details. I think this part would have been pretty. I think we've been dealing with DUIs and this kind of basic arrest

pretty much the same way. Yeah, I agree with you. The 09 one, I went back and read this stuff I wrote about Tiger right after it happened. I did a giant Tiger mailbag. It was interesting rereads. Just the shock from back then. I think now that it's been a solid seven and a half years,

the impact of what happened and the fact that we've been dealing with this version of Tiger for a really long time, the entire Obama presidency plus part of trump um that the shock of that that night and the downfall and the weird press conference with his mom there and all that stuff seems like it was 40 years ago i actually think that press conference is one of the most interesting parts of it because how many times with a giant athlete especially tiger level giant do we get to see the real guy remember at the time we all said oh he handled the press conference wrong he said the wrong things but what we now know is that's the real tiger yeah that's how he thought he should handle it and to me to get a shot of the real person

reacting to something that that story that's just blossoming out of control like that one was that's amazing i mean that was tiger yeah it still is tiger that's that's the guy we got him not the guy in the nike commercial not the guy who's smiling and talking to jim nance after the masters that was tiger and that was the first you know twitter took off before 09 but 09 was the year Twitter really took off. That was when everybody started. Everybody had a handle by the end of 2009. Basically, I think I, I think I launched mine maybe in April of 2009.

But it was 2009. Twitter started to push news. And that was, I think the first major sports story I remember finding out about on Twitter. Being like, whoa. I remember where I was. I was with my wife. We were having dinner. It was the Wednesday before Thanksgiving.

I remember what restaurant we were at. It was like, whoa. Oh. It was like Canada getting shot in 2009. It really was. Hass, do you remember where you were when that happened? I do. I mean, that was at the super, super height of my all-time Tiger lust. Yeah. Do you remember where you were when that happened? I do.

I mean, that was at the super, super height of my all-time Tiger lust. Yeah. So two big sport moments that led to, like, really gut-wrenching crestfallen. The news when I woke up when I'd heard that Len Bias had passed away. Yeah. And then just the surreal 48 hours of the Tiger news. And it was a moment back when it was hard to still to get like instantaneous kind of news out of the Twitter cycle. It wasn't quite as robust as it is now. So there was tons of, I think we had probably a half dozen telephone conversations back then about

all the iterations and possibilities that went into that. And the conspiracy theories, because that was a whole other part that after it happened, it was like, why did it happen? What happened? It really was, from a conspiracy theory standpoint,

one of the most dissected incidents of the entire 21st century so far. And a technology thing too, because it involved his phone and text messages. It was kind of like, yeah, that was a very 2009 thing to be undone by your text messages. I remember the split screens after we needed the press conference of his tooth,

whether his tooth was colored differently than it was two years ago, whether she had knocked out. I mean, it was insane. It was the internet at its best and at its worst. But man, I was thinking the Tiger Run, which is basically, do you count? When you think about the Tiger Run, do you count the junior stuff house?

Of course. I guess you can. Oh, yeah. It's all part of the legend. So if you go with that first amateur Open that he won, which I think was 94, and that goes all the way through 08 when he wins the Open. And then 09 was YIANG, I think, in April. Or PGA, June.

The PGA would have been in August. August, yeah, yeah. So that's a 15-year run, and then it's over. Well, he won five times in 2013. No majors. I don't remember. You have to go back and look and see what the narrative was for why he competed. He was one of those years I think he made the most money of anyone, right?

Maybe that was 2013. He won player of the year in 2013. Yeah. It's kind of like the MJ Wizards thing, where it's like MJ scored 20 points a game on the Wizards. It wasn't that sad, though. No, it wasn't. Tiger didn't have the pot belly.

MJ was a stocky. Am I wrong that I think more fondly on the MJ Wizards thing than most? Yes. Because I don't think fondly. You were definitely wrong. Okay. Because I remember just... There was no fond moment.

I remember him... No, there were a couple. I remember him coming to Boston a couple times. I went to the very first home game. It was very fun. He came to Boston once. It was awesome. It was like this whole new generation of kids are like, oh, my God, that's Michael Jordan.

It was pretty cool. Speaking of Michael Jordan and Tiger, the finals are starting on Wednesday. And it was a rare treat to just have nine days of speculation and wondering and people trying to create hot takes. And then you could kind of see where everything was going. You knew LeBron versus MJ was going to be a thing. We had fun with it on the podcast last week. It was the Warriors were going to blow them out. Now it's starting to creep back to, oh, well, maybe Cleveland.

People are counting out Cleveland. It's like, well, you're the same people who just told us the Warriors are going to win. And everyone's just bored and waiting for the finals to start. But ESPN.com had this thing on their website yesterday about whether this was the most star-studded finals ever, which I just reflexively wanted to throw up when I saw. And then I saw the case laid out, and I was like,

holy shit, yeah, this might actually be the seven all-stars. This might be the number one. It doesn't have the most Hall of Famers, but... You're deferring to Lakers- celtics from the 80s so that my question is do we want are we grading it on all stars are we grading it on on future hall of famers because it's really hard to top larry and magic two of the best five or six ever kareem the third or fourth best ever worthy mikhail bill walton on the bench a bunch of iconic role players dennis johnson is probably the 60th best player ever like you know i i would still put 87 above all of these 85 or 87 but i don't know seven all-stars

it's an interesting media question because in the 80s those big guys seem so different they the guys seem really big now but they seem big in a different way in the 80s yeah the age of television and sports illustrated yeah and it you know i hear people talk about 80s basketball like everybody was an all-star back then there's no all-stars there's no stars now which is obviously garbage yeah it's not. But the bigness of those guys is different than the bigness of the guys now, just in media terms. I don't even know how to describe it. Well, there was a distance with the old guys in the 80s. These guys now, it's like they're in our lives 24-7. Anytime they do something in a game, I'm either watching it or somebody's telling me it just happened.

We're just tired of them. Because we don't have to watch a tape delayed finals on cbs like we did in the early 80s yeah the uh the like magic to me i've said this before but i don't know how many times i watched the 84 lakers that year before the finals you didn't hear it Dick Stockton do a call? Might have been five times the whole year. And then the playoffs, you got to see some. But Lighthouse, remember when we would see West Coast teams, it was really exciting. I'd be like, oh, that's what James Worthy looks like in a Laker uniform.

We wouldn't even find out unless you were watching SportsCenter and they showed him doing a dunk. And now it's like these guys are just in our lives. Part of our romanticizing those teams from the early to mid-80s is also attributable to the fact that they were pioneers, right? They saved the league. They rightfully have been recognized for saving the league. And I like the comparison to kind of the era that we're in now because this is also kind of a pioneering era with what Golden State has managed to kind of perfect

in the way of reinventing the game with a 3-and-D approach and having exactly the right personnel for it and adding in KD this current season. I wonder if 20 years from now people will be looking back at this era and romanticizing what the Warriors and then Cleveland as the perfect foil. I mean, it's been a terrific three years here with Cleveland and Golden State back and forth and the intrigue and which skill set is the one that's going to carry you to the title, and they've split the first two.

So I understand the point about we have such immersion into the daily grind with these guys, and I, for one, am so ready for them to start playing some goddamn basketball games. But trying to put the historical perspective on it, it's a loaded finals. It's great. The last three finals feel like they've been loaded finals. And we'll see sort of how it feels 20 years from now.

I look forward to having this conversation with both of you 20 years from now. Yeah, I left that Celtics series, and I think I was bitter that I felt like the Celtics would have done better if Isaiah was there. I still think they would have lost. But I left that series thinking Cleveland has some real flaws defensively. And when they play Golden State, those flaws are going to be badly exposed and Golden State's going to win in five. And then the more I look at it, the more I read, the more I about it um cleveland has some real advantages lebron and kairi and those guys they won a game seven in golden state i i think that is the number

one advantage in this series is that they already know they can win there like you have that that's great look at how lebron how he's it was different for him when he went to Boston after Game 6, 2012. Now he goes, he's like, I've won here. I'm confident. So that's one. Two is that Kyrie, I think, really feels like he's better than Curry. I think he plays the Warriors and goes, I'm better than this guy. I'm going to prove it again.

So you have two huge player advantages. The top two on the Cavs think they're better than the top two on the Warriors. LeBron thinks he owns Durant. He's like, what is he, 18-5 against them, something like that? So you have that. And then you have the Warriors have guys that I'm not sure they're going to be able to play, which is what I want to talk to Jarks about. He's going to come on later.

But I don't know how Zaza Pichulia plays in this series. i don't know how zaza chulia plays in this series i don't know how javel mcgee plays the moment those guys come out they're just going to iso them and put them in pick and roll and just figure out ways to torture them on the flip side the Cavs are going to have guys that they're going to have trouble playing too and it just seems like to me this series the more i stare at, it seems like a toss-up. And two teams that are going to be able to do things against the other team. Does that make sense? Now I sound like the talking head who's trying to talk everyone in the series.

But I honestly feel that way. And I forgot to mention Mike Brown. That Mike Brown thing's a real thing. That guy's been fired three times. He's coaching the Warriors now Steve Kerr said I'm not in it You prefer Ty Lue? Yeah

I prefer the Ty Lue LeBron combo I think LeBron coaches that team They won a game seven In Golden State With Ty Lue and LeBron I don't know what Mike Brown is capable of I watch Game 7. I know Curry's hurt.

I think they've been very diplomatic about how they've handled the Curry thing. But they were terrible in the fourth quarter of Game 7, the Warriors. They just went one-on-one. They had real trouble stopping LeBron and Kyrie. And then down the stretch, the Cavs weren't even making shots.

And they still won. But I don't know. I just feel like this is I hate if I'm a Warriors fan I hate that the narrative has become the Warriors are going to beat the Cavs it's not good

I feel like I should be more generous and more gracious we just had a wonderful three day weekend we're all back to work I ought not to get on and immediately start using less than gracious language, but I think you're a hedging pussy. I think the Golden State Warriors are going to come in and blow the doors off the Cavs.

The narrative that I like, and look, there is no, the analytics create wonderful storylines that suggest that this could be a very competitive series. On balance, most analytics favor Golden State. I think 538 has Golden State as a 90%

likely winner here. I don't have any reason to disagree with it. What I like is story. 538 had the Cavs with a 3% chance of winning the finals on May 3rd. I just wanted to point that out. By the way, I bet on the Cavs last year, so I'm fine with that. Okay. The only thing I want to say is I like this story of the Warriors redeeming the best record in the NBA,

the best regular season record in the NBA last season, and they couldn't validate it with the championship. So what they're going to do this year is go 16 and mother-effing-oh in the playoffs, the first time in the history of the National Basketball Association, and they're going to come on out and just do it to it. It's a sweep. That's my call. I like it.

I'm going to gamble on that call, and that to it it's a sweep that's my call i'm going to gamble on that call and and that's the one that i'm subscribing to curtis is stunned wow you might have to get curtis some water the sweep the sweet pick is really bold i like it it does feel like we're in the two-week break before the super bowl and this is wednesday before the super bowl and we've just like okay what have what have we not argued? What scenario? Is tomorrow Cavs sweep day? Can we talk ourselves into that? Cavs sweep feels like that's not happening.

I love the way Curry's playing and I think that's a huge advantage for the Warriors is that he's a different guy and he's got his mojo back and Durant, I think, is going to be super motivated. LeBron's going to have to guard Durant. I'm going to wait until tomorrow's BS podcast on the Wednesday edition to give my finals pick, but I did want to talk about finals odds with you guys. House, you ready?

I'm ready. I mean, this is the thing. This is the anchor of my tweet prediction. Durant, plus 200. LeBron, plus 210. Steph Curry, plus 225. Draymond, plus 800. Kyrie, 12 to 1.

Klay Thompson, 20 to 1. Kevin Love, 30 to 1. Nobody else is relevant. I think Kyrie is the—I'm not saying he's the best bet. I think the odds are the best for him 12 to 1 because there's a if if the calves win one of the reasons they could win is kairi kairi just going off and torching the warriors and averaging 38 a game and doing what he did i mean house i've never in my life seen somebody and this is not a denigration because this is pure respect.

I've never seen anyone make more terrible shots than he did in that Boston series. He's just great at it. He makes 28-footers with a hand in his face. Even Curry's three-pointers aren't as ridiculous as Kyrie when Kyrie gets hot. They're ridiculous, and he makes them all the time. So I don't know. I think 12- 12-1 is interesting for him. What do you think, House?

I like it. The problem I had with Kyrie is that means he has to jump over LeBron, and LeBron, I expect, if the Cavs win, will be playing both ways, so we're going to have two or three or maybe five unbelievable defensive plays that will be

fresh in our minds. And we're not going to get any defensive plays out of Kyrie, which is why, even though 12-1 is good. So I have a little menu, as I want to do. You know, I'm inclined to allocate a little capital this time of year. The one that I like is Draymond at plus 800. Okay. And the theory there is that Steph and KD cancel each other out and Draymond basically

has a final series just like he had last year he just has to like replicate you know being meaningful in the five different categories that he's capable of doing and then you know Steph and KD will trade games under this theory of leading. The hedge, that's one. I'm going to play Draymond at the plus 800. I'm also thinking about a nice parlay. I like KD alongside with the Warriors in five. So that's my hedging P-word play. If the Warriors in 5, KD kind of leading the way because on balance the Warriors will defer to him,

they've demonstrated that. I mean, that's why I think we've seen the very best Steph, postseason Steph ever. It's because he is the healthiest he's been in the postseason, and that's because of Kevin Durant's impact on the team over the course of the regular season. But I think in this final, KD's first taste of this with this group, I know that he played as a young guy for the Thunder, but he has an expectation of winning.

I think there's kind of a, you could talk yourself into deferring. So KD at plus 200, Warriors in five at plus 240. The parlay calculator says that's a nine to one bet. That's a nice plus 920. I think KD is, if you think the Warriors are winning, I think KD is the best bet because he'd have to guard LeBron. And he's going to have to protect the rim. And, you know, they're really going to need him

because rim protection last year if you remember when they had especially when they had to play azuli and who was the other guy they had to throw out there i'm blanking now after bogut they'd throw a couple guys out there that were uh that were uh not great and the craziest thing in the series is both teams it might just be both teams playing seven guys because they're going to have all the rest from it, you know. And like in game one, I think the Cavs could get away with playing seven guys. They're not playing again until Sunday. They'd have three days off. And I think the Cavs have to win game one.

If we talk about what the media wants to happen kd feels feels right yeah that's a good angle what what does the media want for stories from game one kd sucking would be their number one choice right so then he can then he can come then he can the redemption of kd in game two but to uh to the draymond mvp theory yeah there would there could after what happened last year yeah in the finals there could be an annoying but powerful Draymond grows up storyline I love it Brian Curtis

Draymond grows up Draymond grows up 8-1 let's do this or the flip side of it Draymond can't grow up after game 3 when he gets tossed for getting in a fight with Dante Jones yeah I think. So let's try to guess all the narratives, right?

Seven game series, we'll say. Game one, Cavs win. Durant's underwhelming. KD's a loser. KD, that's why he went to the Warriors, because he knew he wasn't good enough. He's not as good as LeBron. LeBron owns KD. That's game one.

Good. Game two, Durant scores 48 points. Chip on his shoulder. KD grew up. This is the game. This is the transformation game for him. My time is now. This is my title. This is his time. Yeah, he just showed that he's important.

Game three, the Kyrie Irving 49-point game. They can't stop Kyrie. This is unbelievable. The Cavs are going to win. House, do you like all this so far? Yeah, I like it. I'm enjoying it. Game four, Cavs are going to win.

They're going to win in five or six. The Warriors are done. Mike Brown. Oh, Mike Brown gets killed after game three. Mike Brown. Oh, my God. Steve Kerr. Can Steve Kerr come back? Mike Brown's killed after game three. Mike Brown. Oh, my God. Steve Kerr. Can Steve Kerr come back?

Mike Brown's ruining this series. Game four, Steph and Klay hit like 28 threes. You ignore Steph Curry at your peril. Yeah. Remember Steph Curry? Oh, I love it. Yeah, remember Steph Curry? I love it.

Now it's 2-2 going back to the Golden State for game five. They win game five. It's a classic. Both teams are great. Now it's like greatest series ever. Ooh. Yeah. Greatest ever.

Best ever. That's when that comes in. Best ever. That's game five. Game six. Warriors up early. Draymond does something dumb. Oh, history repeats itself.

LeBron puts up like the 49, 11 and 16. LeBron's the game six narratives. LeBron puts up like the 49, 11, and 16. LeBron's the game six narratives. LeBron's the best. We forgot about LeBron. LeBron wouldn't allow his team to lose. Not on his floor. Not on my floor. Can Mike Brown control Draymond at the worst possible time?

And then it goes seven. It's going seven, house. I can see it now. And Steve Kerr back to the bench for game seven. Steve Kerr back. Steve Kerr back. One game. Just one game. I'm goes seven. It's going seven, house. I can see it now. It's Steve Kerr back to the bench for game seven. Steve Kerr back. Steve Kerr back. One game. Just one game.

I'm going seven. And then we go into seven. It's like they've won there before. They've already won a seven on the road. They have the best player for one game. It's trouble. We'll see. The Warriors, they've never really beaten LeBron and Kyrie together.

How about the Steve Kerr-Willis-Reed walkout in game seven? He's here. He's got his in game seven? He's here. He's got his little chalkboard. He's here. That'd be unbelievable. Quick break to talk about Miller Lite, the official sponsor of TheRinger.com, my official beer since I was in college in the late 80s.

They're brewed not just to taste great, but also to be less filling. Only 96 calories. It won't fill you up. It's brewed to be enjoyed from tip-off to final buzzer. It's the original Night Baron. It has been since we first showed up courtside in 1975. I'm saying we because I've been on the Miller Lite team

ever since they did the Red Arbat, Casey Jones, Satch Sanders, Sam Jones, that whole poster. It's in the Ringer studio. Anyway, Miller Lite, the official sponsor of TheRinger.com. All right, House, did I talk you into seven games or no? You still say sweep? I'm going to root for seven games but I'm also going to gamble on a sweep

I will say I think LeBron with rest that's a legit thing I think he's going to be awesome in game one another two and a half days until game two. It's good.

The way this is spaced out with these 18 days for seven games is perfect for him. All right, House. We're letting you go. Fantastic. I will talk to you by text as we try to figure out what to do. When are you getting invited on Cousin Sal's pod?

Are you feeling certain? I don't know. He's done three. Well, the U.S. opens right around the corner. Yeah. And I'm already formulating some points of view. In fact, quick plug for the Shack House. We have noted Miller Lite aficionado Kevin Kisner on today's podcast.

Kevin Kisner just won the Dina DeLuca Invitational down in Fort Worth, Texas. And we also are going to talk a lot of Tiger on today's Shack House. So be sure to check that out. Try not to get fired. I'll talk to you soon. All right. Thanks. All right. Before we talk about Frank DeFord, what is worse than having lousy sheets? I remember being in college and trying to prolong the same set of sheets for weeks because I didn't feel like doing the laundry. I still have nightmares about it. Guess what? Great sleep starts with the right sheets and they're more affordable than you think. With Bowl & Branch, they make the most comfortable sheets you'll ever sleep on. Fall asleep faster, sleep deeper, wake up ready to kick some ass. Each sheet is crafted from 100% organic cotton.

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$50 off plus free shipping right now at bowlingbranch.com. We called Jonathan Charks and his phone was, it was too spotty and the connection wasn't good enough. So we, we unfortunately had to cut that. He's going to be on the ringer NBA show on Wednesday. He has a big piece about Kevin Durant coming out this week on the ringer. And he was a huge part of our NBA draft guide. So I'm going to have him back on when we have a better, um, phone connection.

But the two things he told us was he thought that the Cavs were going to attack the Warriors big guys and that he thought the series could go six. But listen to him on Ring or NBA show if you want to hear the thing. Sorry about the phone connection. All right, Brian Curtis and I are going to talk about Frank DeFord and then we're going to close it. So first of all, the was the timing was weird. Memorial Day, which is a day we're just thinking about, you know, kind of thinking backwards,

thinking about all the people that serve the country and people that lost their lives, all this stuff. And you're already in kind of that nostalgic. What's the right word? Yeah. Nostalgic. Sad. I don't know. So it's always a strange day it's

it was weird that it's a holiday kind of a fugue state yeah yeah and then deford dies in the morning west coast time um which i i had heard rumors that his health wasn't great but didn't know um it was that bad you had him on the on the podcast what a year ago that we ran on channel 33 last summer i want to say was this health okay you talk to him, it seemed like it was right. Yeah. And he was always kind of, he'd had problems over the last couple of years. You would see,

he would say, I remember calling him one time. So I had pneumonia. I'm just out of the hospital. Yeah. And I was calling him about some stupid thing. I say, are you okay to do this?

Oh yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine. And then he talked for 45 minutes in perfect paragraphs and everything was quotable and it was, it was Frank DeFort. Yeah. So I was was i've been thinking about it for the last 24 hours and i read a lot of the pieces including your excellent one on the ringer and uh you know i just think that era of journalism where somebody wrote a piece and if it was the right person, it became an event in itself.

I think it's gone for sports. The stuff is too fast. It's too furious. No movie analogy on that, but it's just, it's just coming too fast. There's so many takes, there's so much writing.

And even if somebody has an awesome piece that might even come in the landscape for a day, the difference with the Ford and just that era and how we consume stuff and read stuff was like, he had a piece. It was like a five day event. You know, it came out. Yeah. It was like, Oh my God. Oh, the Ford has a piece in SI and it was, you read it and go to school, talk about it with friends. And it just, in, in the magazine itself would live on for

days. Maybe you go back three days later, read it again. We didn't have a lot, as nearly as many reading options back then. He was the best. I think there was certainly a point, I would say from 76 to 84, it was just undisputed. Every, every big feature that he wrote was the most important feature anyone wrote that month. And I don't see that happening again do you i think we still have events but they're really short as you say yeah right thompson piece uh goes from 8 a.m to 11 a.m and then we begin to move on a couple tv shows and it's done let me say how it's on deadspin right we just gotta lose the train of thought uh you know a big big Sports Illustrated feature. But nothing like the DeFord and later Gary Smith and later Rick Riley when he would do a big feature. Yeah.

That would just grab you by the lapels. I feel and shake you all week. Also having it on paper because you'd keep it around. Yeah. And then maybe go open it the next day again. I want to read this again. I have it on my nightstand. It felt more permanent in a way than pieces do now.

When he did the coach about, what was his name, Bull Sullivan? Toughest coach there ever was. Toughest coach there ever was and it was the cover story. I mean, I remember getting that in the mailbox and going, oh my God. The Fords on the cover? Like it was substantial. It really mattered. And then you go through, it's like, oh, this is, look how long this is.

I got to carve out 45 minutes. What's the, what's the 45 minutes I'm going to devote to this? Pace myself and be just in the right frame of mind. So I'm ready for it. Yeah. And there were a lot of people doing it. And I don't think he was necessarily the best, right? Like the ceiling of his writing was the highest, but I think he was necessarily the best right like the ceiling of his writing was the highest but i think he was the best at it for 10 years i still think mark

cram's piece about frazier and ali the third fight is the best thing i've read that magazine and i think there were guys that had as much talent as the ford but i think the time um the execution the people that he picked, he was really smart at picking high profile, important people and writing about them, which I think is, is probably the thing that, that prevented Gary Smith from being remembered that same way. Like Gary Smith's, a lot of his best pieces were pretty, pretty obscure subjects, you know?

And Frank DeFord was like, I'm writing about Bill Russell and I'm writing about Bobby Knight and Jimmy Connors and Arthur Ashe and all these big, big, big, important people. But let's not forget that DeFore did have this kind of kitschy Americana thing going on because that coach in Mississippi, as he says in the first line of that piece, nobody's ever heard of. Right. None of us have ever heard of. He did roller derby. He did a sports illustrator piece, refresh my memory, Bill, on Jeopardy. He did one on Miss America, which I think became a book. He had this thing where he also.

Billy Kahn was estranged. That was 35, 40 years after. And that was kind of a nostalgia zone piece. But he also did one about. I didn't know who Billy Kahn was. Oh, no. No clue. I won't claim that I did. He also did one about, I didn't know Billy Connors. Oh no, no. I won't claim that I did.

He also did one about traveling with his family around Florida. I think there was, he went to all the crappy roadside attractions. He loved, he had a side of him too, that was like, I'm going to go just Frank to Ford up this thing, right. American culture and bring all the kind of weird power to it. It was, it was weird. It was, it was a funny he wrote 20 books it's in the obit 20 20 because there's all these books you don't even you don't

even know existed novels i think miss america became a book i we were saying you were reading miller light ad frank de ford was big enough that he was in a miller light ad right billy martin tastes great less filling and shameless enough that he wrote a book about the Miller Lite Taste Great campaign. Like, I mean, think of that. Amazing. Think of that guy. I mean, he was just, I was also struck by looking at pictures of him and stuff. The sports writer who not only tells us how to write, by example, we can't be that good,

but shows us, but also how to act, how to dress, how to carry yourself as this kind of like character out of some like movie. Right. He bridged the two eras from the, uh, the 50s, 60s era, the sports writer to what, which, you know, you pointed out in your piece, but like the, by the time the eighties rolled around, um, there you had inside sports was also doing a lot of the same great stuff for only for two and a half years. But that was the first time I really felt like all these, and I was at the right age group for it too. But I just felt like these guys are my heroes, like Frank DeFord, Gary Smith.

Riley comes in in the mid-80s like, who's this guy? Oh, and then he writes some of it. Then he immediately jumps on that side. That's when the best American sports writing book started to take off before it turned into a self-parody. But the 80s, I think, were the best era for, here's a big ass, well-written piece. And this is important.

And you're going to think about it for a couple of days. Yes. And they could, they could command your attention because what, what people who are younger than us, Bill don't remember is those days there was local media, your sports page. And then there was national media.

Now we're all national. Now there's like barely any local media now we're all national now there's like barely any local left we're all national writers but then it was an elect right if you were to ford curry kirkpatrick riley in that in that sports illustrated alexander wolf jack mccallum you really had you'd made it to this tier that no one else had and if you were really good at it like frank to ford was and riley was oh right you were really good at it, like Frank DeFord was and Riley was, you were on this Olympus. Yeah, I remember when Frank DeFord

wrote about Joe Delaney in the early 80s because Joe Delaney drowned trying to save these two kids but couldn't swim. And it's a story I just wouldn't have known if he didn't write about it. There's an incredible amount of power that Sports Illustrated and Inside Sports during the couple years specifically had,

where if they shone their light on somebody, it pushed them to a whole different level of recognizability. Joe Delaney was this running back who died. Lots of people died in the 70s and 80s. And it was like, oh, this is sad. The guy drowned. Then DeFord wrote about it.

And now he's like, I love Joe Delaney. I still love him 35 years later and the story's incredible and that was the power those magazines had now if that joe delaney thing happens there's probably three different features written about him in the first year and it's tv he just becomes the latest oh here's another thing and it's it goes through the vortex got 30 for 30s in production already and we're we're off and running it's like oh here's some here's some content which you know obviously we're we're part of too and we're always looking for good stories and that's awesome it's great you don't have to wait it's great my point is in the 80s we didn't have that and something like joe duane there's probably 25 other stories that that were probably as good as that or as interesting or stuff that would have resonated with us and they just kind of went away we should

also talk about his the fact that he picked basketball as his first big sport at si is huge gets to si i was looking through his memoir last night and nobody at the magazine knows what basketball is almost at all and he goes to them because it's an irrelevant sport there's this guy named bill bradley at princeton where i just graduated from yeah who we should probably do a piece about and he does it and then he goes and does the nba and there's that great i borrowed that anecdote from his thing he's on a plane doing a cover story on john havelichek and um havelichek is sitting in coach and frank deford a 20-something writer foricek is sitting in coach and Frank DeFord, a 20 something writer for sports illustrator is sitting in first class. Havlicek has to come to first class to be interviewed by Frank DeFord.

Right. I mean, that's like the in steerage on the Titanic. It's like Leo on the Titanic coming up to, to, to see Kate Winslet. I mean, that's unbelievable.

It's unbelievable. When I, when I did my basketball book, which I spent three years on and the first year and and a half just reading everything. And at that point, the SI vault was there, so I could go back. And I had some of the old SIs too, but it was really hard to find anything from the mid, late 60s, early 70s, stuff like that. I was astonished by how many NBA pieces he wrote. I mean, he basically was there for Bill Russell's last couple of years at SI and then going all the way through. And then eventually people like John Papenek and Kirk Kirkpatrick, people like that started to write about it, but it's, it's, they're little snapshots of not just who mattered at the time, but also some of the, some of the issues that America had at the time, the Connors piece, which is my favorite piece that he ever wrote,

is probably a piece that would get somebody in trouble now. A man raised by two women to conquer man. I'm sure people would be like, well, why does he blah, blah, blah? So he is, when you reread some of those, they definitely feel era-specific. Yes. He also was much better. He, he, I think, I think I brought this line for you. He's a better marathoner than he was a sprinter. Yeah, no question.

If he had like when he wrote more crank columns than any smart person I've ever seen, whether it was, he was like the world's most, the world's best credentialed soccer troll. Right. And he just kept coming out. You find like old issues of SI and he's just killing soccer. And you're like, what is he doing? Yeah. He did, uh, that the reinvention of DeFord.

So he leaves SI in the late 90s, in the late eighties to go form the national. And there's a great book about the history of sports illustrated that I, I highly recommend that has a long chapter about the history of Sports Illustrated that I highly recommend that has a long chapter about DeFord leaving. And there was really a lot of bitterness. Yes. I mean, on the level of like me leaving ESPN level of bitterness with him in SI. Definitely.

He was like persona non grata. And they like took a million dollars from, he was owed, he felt about like a million dollars. Yeah. Of promised money and they wouldn't give it to him and they were um this is michael mccambridge is the franchise yeah and he was he and he was also going after si writers which they i think they felt like was totally uncalled for ghost the national has unlimited money to spend and for 18 months for 18 months

and assembles his great writing staff and And it was, I can't even describe how great that newspaper was when we were forming Grantland in 2011. And I really want to do some oral histories. And that was the first one. It was like the first one we were doing is the national because I have yet to read anything that captured how important that an influential that newspaper was and also how crazy it was that it failed because of a bad business plan not because it was good and we ended up getting this awesome moral history and he felt i i think part guilty but also part still incredulous that it was such a disaster where you know like the unpaid bills and just crazy, crazy, crazy stories.

But yet he had a great eye for talent and assembled a bunch of awesome people. A lot of whom went on to have big careers afterwards. I'm amazed that Charles P. Pierce, our old pal, and Chris Mortensen were both touched by Frank DeFord. Right. Just think how different those two people are. I mean, they're on the opposite sides of the moon. Yeah, seriously. And he had a hand in all of them.

This literary godfather. That was his Dick Schaap period. We talked about Schaap on the pod a few weeks ago. Right. That was his Schaap period. He also, he did some ESPN stuff before. I remember Walsh told me a story once about how, and he became very friendly with DeFord.

DeFord was doing ESPN commentaries or whatever. And DeFord would always say to him, I don't understand why HBO isn't using SI people. Because they were owned by the same company at that point. And then all of a sudden real sports is like hey we're gonna use frank to ford and grab them and then he had like this third act he's doing npr commentaries he's doing uh real sports he's kind of reinvented himself as this older as you said a little curmudgeonly um and the stuff that he did on brian gomel show i always loved when he was on it was great they had like a great when he was on. It was great.

They had a great interaction. He was always offended by Brian for a second. Oh, I don't know about that, Brian. Brian would be like, and Frank, you spent time with this guy, and you really thought, oh, no, I'm not saying that, Brian. And they would just kind of go at it. I always enjoyed it. But they were all in awe of him on that show.

And with reason. Because he was the great generational talent, and he was a little older. Yeah, was he was the you know the great generational talent and he was a little older yeah and he looked the part he looked like an actor hired to play with the pocket square and the slip back hair and the mustache my mom always thought he was super handsome she's like oh you gotta set me up with frank de ford but uh yeah and in the nephew laughed at that one the npr thing blows me away yeah because. Because 1600 commenters, 1600 and people all the time I meet who don't know anything about sports, don't care about sports,

don't want to know about sports. Oh, I love that Frank DeFord. Yeah. I mean, if you can be one of those guys who bolts out of sports and touches people like the only other, I mean,

there are a couple of people. Riley probably did it for a little while. Red Smith was kind of the classic, like, oh, worldly he's so smart turned such a good phrase that was frank on npr he was for people that didn't give a shit about any of the stuff he was their voice he was their way into sports i think you made a good point earlier about how the difference between local and national and how split it was yeah because I remember an ESPN hired me in 2001, and I asked for like five weeks off to try to figure out how to write a national column.

Because the roadmap at that point was just local columns. And I think Riley had his SI column at that point, but it was 800 words. It was done a specific way. I didn't want to do an imitation of that. But I really had trouble figuring it out and had to map out all these different ways, things that I thought might work to try to get people outside of my little sphere, which is basically Boston to care because that's how people, people wrote sports columns.

If you're in Boston, you wrote mostly about Boston sports. If you're in Boston, you wrote mostly about Boston sports. If you're in Chicago, you wrote mostly about Chicago. And even if you wrote national, you tied in the local sports as the connection. Sure. And now it's the opposite. But anyway, the thing with DeFord is he was, the national guys for us was basically SI. He went inside sports for two and a half years and the national guys for us was basically SI. And Inside Sports for two and a half years and the national for 18 months and Rudy Martzki.

But we didn't have a, there wasn't a lot of sports writing connections for, if you're in Texas and I'm in Boston and we start talking about sports writing, we only had like six guys to talk about. We weren't reading the same guys. No. You'd be like, hey, did you read,

what was his name blackie charade blackie shared yeah black is shared i wouldn't have i wouldn't have read one piece and i would be like did you read ray fritz jared you're like no okay who frank de ford yeah did you read the bobby nate piece yeah and then we're talking and it's funny how people solve that problem right you you ultimately solved it by just writing about boston anyway right i had and also doing movies and other things i did did pop culture, yeah. Riley solves it by doing heartstring tugging little stories. Like here's a universal thing a lot, right?

And then he writes about Tiger and John Elway. Sammy Sosa was a big one. Sure, and that was a big one. But he would also do like, here's a story you've never heard. Yeah. And I'm going to grab you with this one. But yeah, I mean, it was a big deal

to be that strapping national. I mean, DeFord also just like, you know, he, you with this one. But yeah, I mean, it was a big deal to be that strapping national. I mean, DeFord also just like, you know, he, you mentioned real sport. He just had this career where he kind of followed his nose around. Yeah. And he was seemingly open to anything. The other thing we should say about him is he was also a nice guy. Everybody liked him. To me, he was a nice guy.

And then I read all the things and it was like, oh, he answered the phone for everybody. Yeah. People would send him crappy articles they wrote as a kid. he'd send back somebody said six type pages i think it was karen krause of the times of critiques i mean this is a guy who was a huge writer and was busy yeah and he was bothering to do that makes you want to answer your email doesn't it when some when somebody writes an email and says hey man can you read you read my stories? And you know, no, this again. But he did all that stuff for a lot of people. In like 2005 ESPN ran a, ran a documentary about Frank DeFord, which I think was called you write better than you play.

And they had done it before with Dick Shapp, which I think that one was called in his own words. That was awesome. And I remember hearing about the DeFord one and going, Oh, they can do the Dick Schapp thing with DeFord. Like, that's not cool. Like the Dick Schapp thing was great. You can't do that again. And then they did it with DeFord. It was awesome. And a big part of it was about his daughter who had cystic fibrosis and she passed away, I think when she was eight and about how that affected him and his career. And it was really well done. And I went to look for it on, uh, online yesterday. It's just, there's no trace of it. So I would love to see, uh, ESPN at some point, I'm sure they have space

on ESPN too. Um, they should run the DeFord thing and they should run the, the Shapp thing again, cause those were both awesome. And especially for DeFord it's really affecting and it's good. And it puts his career in the proper perspective. Cause not many guys touch that many big athletes. Yeah. And also we're from that sixties tone that really, I mean you saw Posnanski like writing a big piece yesterday when I, I said like in my thing that Dan Jenkins and DeFord were hired the same year at SI,

which is a miracle. Yeah. Dan was much older, but the, um, and much more experienced, but like those guys really set the tone. I feel for the next generation that came after him, all those guys, like Lupa kind of those, they looked at those two and wanted to be kind of one of those two guys. Yeah. Dan was a deadline writer. Give me, give me the ball. Masters just ended. Give me the rock i i got this you know i'm gonna sit down on my typewriter in an hour write the best story you ever read frank was more immersive i'm gonna go find who the real jimmy connors is yeah dan wouldn't care about that and and they set two different kind of paths and they both inspired some of the worst

sports writing of all time too we should mention that people imitating that horrible right i mean that's i mean i think in frank's case at least he wrote so plainly you mentioned this i mean it's like he you read his pieces you don't feel like you're reading super highfalutin language they're super plain they're super they're not it was very it was very tight he was so clever how he was able to just do these very simple but brilliant sentences and just put them all together in all this detail. And you'd be like, whoa. He was very accessible. Yes.

Oh, yes. There are other guys who tried to do the fancy DeFord impersonations that, you know, four paragraphs of nothing starting the feature just to flex their literary muscles. And DeFord, he didn't really do that much of that. Oh, you mentioned Mark Cram. That's the guy on the other side of the world from Frank DeFord. Yeah. But Mark Cram was probably the best at that version.

He could do that version. Frank reads like a guy who spent his formative years at Time Inc. Yeah. Don't blow people away. This is a national magazine for the masses. Yeah. Don't write over people's heads. Some of my favorite Haberstam stuff, and they both use the same trick where they didn't really rely on quotes.

And they spent a lot of time with somebody and then wrote what they thought the person, and they just framed it in a way where it's not like, and then he said this, and then here's the next quote. They didn't do that. If they used quotes, it was always sparingly, and they might use one sentence. And Frank would find the best quotes. Yeah. He would find this killer thing.

You know, I had the one in there with Bill Russell, kind of comes out of exile, 1999. He wrote a piece that won the National Magazine Award, I think. And Tommy Heinsohn said he won 11 titles in 12 years, and they named the fucking title for Ted Williams. Yeah, and i remember reading that and going whoa and that was a throwback to ford it was ford he was kind of coming out of exile i mean how old was he died when he was he was 78 when he died so he was probably like 60 when he wrote that which is pretty pretty late for him i remember the whole theme of the piece was he and Russell were old men and, and kind of reconnecting after a time. Well, he was a great writer and, uh, and he just

obviously an inspiration to anybody who, who does this for a living, but just in general, just a great writer at a great point for that magazine. I feel, you know, 75 to 84 is probably the best, the stretch when SI mattered the most because it reached the most people. More people cared about sports. There's more sports to write about. And watch on TV. The writing was better.

There was more of a connection. It had more of a place. It had less competition. And, you know, the cover would come out and it was just the one picture on the cover with the one title. And it really mattered who was on the cover and, uh, and he was the guy for them. So, uh, it was awesome. So anyway, there was some people wrote some good pieces. There's good links to some of this stuff. I love the Connors one. I think the Moses one is a really interesting reread as we discussed for a lot of different reasons. I think the Bobby Knight, the rabbit hunters in all timer, uh,

the one he wrote about Russell, but it really it's, there's 20, 25 pieces that you can reread depending on what you care about. And, and I think, uh, you know, you're not going to be disappointed, right? Absolutely. Oh no. There's, there are very few bad reads. They're almost all pretty great. The only take that I hate was like, he created the hashtag long form. It's like, I just hate hashtag long form. No offense to people.

Don't smear his legacy. It's like long form started 10 years ago. It was like long form, Sports Illustrated started long form in 1954. But before that, I just don't like the word. It's just writing is good writing. It's so dumb. it could be 8,000 words it could be 800 words like you don't need to be like long form like this is some

basically long form means it's going to take a lot of time to read this piece yes and I was about to say that I don't think and I think I would never say Frank DeFord's articles were great because they were long good long form that's not the reason I was just I never liked when people would call Grantland a long form site.

Cause it was like, so how do you explain the Dave Jacoby's reality columns and the bad quarterback league and all the other stuff we were doing? Like that stuff wasn't long form. Anyway, he was just a good writer and had a huge influence on a lot of people. RIP to him. That is it for the BS Podcast.

Thanks to Brian Curtis. Thanks, Bill. You were a little bit, almost on the DL. We coaxed a good performer. You're a little sick. Sorry, I'm on just a little allergy-ridden voice. Apologies to the audience.

Thanks to Bowling Branch for sponsoring today's podcast. Great sleep starts with the right sheets. They're more affordable than you think with Bowling Branch. Go to bowlingbranch.com today to get their 100% organic cotton crafted sheets, and you'll get $50 off your first set of sheets, plus free shipping when you use the promo code BS.

Are you happy with your sheets, Brian? Now I am, but at age, early 30s, late 20s, college. It was a mess. College, man. It was gross. Oh, my God. That would be a good documentary it's just people's sheets in college how disgusting they are just all of you should get ball and branch

nephew kyle how are you how are your sheets not as good as they could be oh nephew kyle needs ball and branch sheets uh thanks to credit wise from capital one kyle how's your credit just got a capital one credit card actually great the free free app lets you track the factors that make up your credit health using information from your TransUnion credit report. You can check it anytime without negatively impacting your credit. Download CreditWise today. Are you doing a Channel 33 pod this week, possibly? I might.

Might? All right. Check out Brian's doing some really good. What was your favorite Channel 33 media podcast you've done so far? Ooh. You don't have to pick. I mean, I always defer to Shoemaker

on Trump and wrestling. I mean, that's, you know, David and I have a conversation in any form. It's great. Curtis is on Channel 33,

sports, media, politics, the intersection of all three. The press box is what we're calling it. It's what we're calling it. Yeah,

we have that. I have a title for that. Don't forget to subscribe to Larry Wilmore's new podcast. Don't forget about Cousin Sal's new podcast as well. Don't forget to go to TheRinger.com, and we will be back on the BS Podcast later this week. I don't have a few years with him

on the wayside on the wayside never I don't have a few years