The Bill Simmons Podcast - Week 1 NBA Notes. Plus, NBA Then and Now With Jackie MacMullan and Bob Ryan 

Episode Date: December 30, 2020

The Ringer's Bill Simmons shares some thoughts from Week 1 of the 2020-21 NBA season (2:00), before talking with sports media legends Jackie MacMullan and Bob Ryan to discuss NBA stories ranging from the 1960s up until today. They also discuss tweaks to this NBA season, including travel and the shortened schedule, the James Harden sweepstakes, and more (27:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Coming up, I have some basketball for you and then some basketball. And then I think we're going to follow that up with maybe some basketball. So yeah. Oh, there's going to be basketball. That's next. It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel. Football is in full action. FanDuel's highest rated sports book is the best place to bet it all.

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and present in select states. Gambling problem called Win 100 Gambler or visit rg-help.com. This episode is brought to you by my old friend, Miller Lite. I've been a big fan of Miller Lite, man, since college days when I was allowed to have beer. I think nephew Kyle is a fan too. Miller Lite keeps it simple for us. Undebatable quality, great taste. Picture this, it's game day, all the gangs here, you're tailgating outside the stadium. It's a great time for beer. Or how about when you're standing at the grill and the smell of sizzling burgers is in the air? Moments like that. Or when you want a light beer that tastes like beer, that's delicious. You don't want to load up on those heavier beers, and then you only have two of them. Then you feel tired. Your stomach feels full.

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It was the last one of 2020. If you want to hear the entire Rewatchables archive dating back to 2017, it is exclusively on Spotify. You can still get everything from the last 60 days on all platforms. Another great movie coming on Monday. So stay tuned for that. Speaking of Ringer Podcast, The Wire, way down in the hole,

wrapped up a really, really fun, entertaining, insightful run. Jemele Hill, Van Lathan. They broke down every single episode of The Wire, which I think is a Mount Rushmore show. It's one of the four or five greatest shows of all time. They did Winners and Losers. They hit the big picture storylines. They did it all.

They did everything. And they finally wrapped it up. I think they did like 65 episodes, something like that. If you love the show, if you're thinking about re-watching it as we head to month 11 of the pandemic here, it's on, I think, HBO HBO Max and it's on Amazon too

and a couple other places. But if you want to watch The Wire again and watch it along with Van and Jamal, I'd highly recommend it. I'm really proud of that podcast. They did a great job. Really appreciate all the hard work they put into it. So check it out. The Wire, way down the hole, it's available on all platforms. Coming up, I'm going to do a little basketball stuff just at the top, stuff I noticed over the last few days. And then Bob Ryan and Jackie McMullen, two icons, and wanted to get them on the same podcast.

We taped it on Monday, but we hit some old stuff. We hit some new stuff. We hit some hardened stuff. And it's really fun. I think you're going to enjoy it. So that's all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, I'm taping this piece of the podcast on Tuesday night during the late games.

Watched all the early games like Clippers, Timberwolves, and Denver Nuggets. That's all going on right now. If anything crazy happens in the second half of those games, our podcast will be up at that point. So don't hold that against me. I've been watching basketball for the past week. Like a lot of you have, I think a combination of the holidays, being home, pandemic. Plus the NBA really improved their app. I actually like if I miss a game or I feel like I want to rewatch a fourth quarter or whatever, it's been easier than ever to just pop onto that app, whether you're doing it on your iPad or computer computer or even on your TV and really zoom through some of these games.

I did that Sunday morning with Houston Portland, which I didn't watch that night, but I feel like I've watched a ton of basketball. And I wanted to get some thoughts down quick just because on Thursday, I know I'm doing a football podcast setting into week 17. On Sunday, Sal and I do the recap.

So the next time I'm conceivably talking about the NBA is going to be a week from now. And I had some thoughts. Some of them are time sensitive. And I'm just going to tell you, I wrote down a bunch of different lists of things that I noticed. I'm just going to rip through them as fast as I possibly can. I'm giving myself a 20 minute time limit on this. Rookies rookies wanted to start with the rookies. This is a polarizing draft. This was a draft that people were comparing to like 2013, 2000. And then all of a sudden there was, um, this counter argument that no, no, actually maybe there's not a lot of star power, but there's not a lot of good players. Uh, everybody's arguing about who should be the first pick,

Anthony Edwards, Wiseman, or Lamello. We had way too long to look at it. I was in the Wiseman should be the first pick camp. I didn't understand why Minnesota wouldn't take him. I don't understand why it would have been a bad thing to have him and Towns together. And you watch Wiseman on the Warriors, and to me, it's like sometimes it's the Malcolm Gladwell blank theory. Sometimes, you know, in two seconds, you really do. I remember watching Yijin Lan

in person. I knew within 30 seconds, I was like, it's not happening for this guy. Felt the opposite about Wiseman. It's just so obvious that he should have been the first pick. And it's so obvious that he's a special player. It's going to take a while. I think he's going to have some crap games. He'll have some good games, but just the overall feel, athleticism, the body he has, the things he can do, how fluid he is.

Like the stuff I look for when I'm watching rookies is does somebody know what they want to do right away when they get thrown the ball, when on defense, are they, do they understand the whole concept of switching? Are they in the right spots? Are they a split second ahead of things instead of a split second behind? I love what I've seen from this guy and he's a beast there.

There's probably five or six people in the league who have a body like the body that he's going to end up with. I thought it was weird that he wasn't the first pick. I think it's even weirder now. And I say that as that I've really liked four rookies so far. And the guy in Minnesota took as one of the four Edwards, he's going to be good, you know, and you know, whether, whether from a maturity standpoint, he can handle the league and all the things that come with it. I think that was the biggest red flag with it, but you just watch it, you know, right away, the guy's an incredible athlete. He totally makes sense on a court. Uh, you know, exactly what he is. He's a great athlete

who can shoot. He has a ton of confidence. He's kind of a character. There's been fun things about fun interviews with him already and things like that. So for me, I have Wiseman first, I would still have Halliburton second. You've already seen him like that. So for me, I have Wiseman first. I would still have Halliburton second. You've already seen him on Sacramento. The thing that I love about him is he doesn't need the ball to have an impact. He's always in the right spots. He's fun to play with. And you just kind of like having him out there. And I think he gives them flexibility if they want to move on from De'Aaron Fox at one point at some point and maybe flip him into a score or whatever. But I have Wiseman one, Halliburton two, Edwards three. And I think that's, that has to be the,

if you're redoing the draft, that has to be the top three. You would say, well, where's Lomelo? Yeah, I know the passes are awesome. He's really fun to watch. He's a better rebounder than I think we expected, but he's really raw. And this can't be emphasized strongly enough. His shot, it looks like he's shooting a bowling ball. He is one of those rare guys that when he shoots, you just don't ever feel like it's going in. And the thing that I was surprised,

I thought he would at least have like the floater driving layup kind of, he'd be able to get, you know, the way, the way Jason Cade would be able to get baskets the first six, seven years of his career. He can't even get those. And, uh, I just think he's such a liability as a shooter. It overshadows a lot of the other stuff. He seems really raw to me. I would not put him in the Wiseman, Halbert and Edwards class. The fourth rookie that I think has just shown he's belonged. And look, this is early. I would not put him in the Wiseman, Halbert, and Edwards class. The fourth rookie that I think has just shown he's belonged. And look, this is early. I'm not saying these are my rookie rankings for the year or anything like that. I'm just saying guys who have jumped out at me so far, Pritchard on the Celtics has been a godsend. And this is a team that has missed a lot of draft

picks that were not in the top seven over the, over the last 15 years. And it's very spotty record. If you go 10th pick and beyond with in the Danny Angel, it just hasn't been great. And they've missed on some recently. They took Pritchard 26th. The general consensus was, wow, that that was somebody who was going to be headed for the thirties. Had a couple of people in my life tell me like, read up on this kid. This kid's won everywhere he's went. If you go and read about him in Oregon, he won three straight titles on a team

that was not like a particular powerhouse in Oregon, but is just a guy that seems to, his team seemed to win. And I think that's what drew Ainge to him because he tends to like either high pedigree guys from high school or guys who have some sort of winning pedigree. And within four games,

tonight they had a huge game against the Pacers where they had lost a couple nights ago. And to lose two and to start the season one and three, especially Indiana, a team they have to be better at. Pritchard came in and changed the game. He can create offensively. He knows where to go on defense. He can shoot.

And he's just feisty. And he kind of took over the game. And to the point that Stevens kept him in so long, he got visibly tired. And they had to take him out. But he's been one of the best four rookies I've watched. I can't believe he's on the Celtics. He's exactly what they need. I think their crunch time lineup, you know,

until Kemba comes back is going to be him and Smart, Tatum and Brown and Thompson. And I can't believe I'm saying that. I never ever in a million years would have expected three weeks ago that I'd be saying that. There was buzz about him in the brief camp where Marcus Smart was raving about him. And Marcus Smart's not one of those, like he's not throwing around compliments left and right. So for him to be like, this guy's a dog, this guy's awesome, that kind of got on my radar.

But he's really stepped up. So the Celtics have finally hit on a pick. There's five other guys that I like flashes of what I've seen and I want to see more of. Actually, I'll give you six. Okoro on Cleveland. The defense is as advertised. Cole

Anthony's had some moments as like a heat check guy off the bench. He sucked tonight. I had him as a top I had it initially as a top five, but he sucked tonight. So I downgraded him. Maxie on the Sixers has had moments. Avdija on the Wizards. I like how comfortable he is.

He's not putting up great stats or anything, but he clearly knows what he's doing and belongs on a basketball court. I like Precious on Miami, who is the guy I wish the Celtics had taken at 14. Precious is clearly headed who is the guy I wish the Celtics had taken in 14. Precious is clearly headed for a 12-year career and will be in playoff games and do stuff. And then Patrick Williams on the

Bulls. I haven't watched a ton of the Bulls yet, but Rossello likes him. I liked what I've seen, so I at least have him marked down. So those would be my six. So I would have Wiseman, Halbert, and Edwards, Pritchard as the four that have really stood out. And then Okoro, Anthony, Maxie, Avdija, Precious, and Patrick Williams.

And then Lomelo's fun just for what he is. Whether it's ever going to translate to him being on a good team, I guess we'll find out. But my bigger point is I think the rookies have been better than I expected. You know, there's not the home run kind of, oh my God, the Tim Duncan in 98 type guy, but we knew that heading into the draft. And by the way, a lot of drafts don't have that guy.

I think Wiseman has a chance to be a special five in today's NBA because he can shoot, he can rebound, he can defend. And he is fluid. And I'm just a fan. I can't believe the Warriors lucked out. All right. That's one thing. Second thing, just four storylines that I just think are worth hitting quickly. First is the way they tweaked the schedule this year. I really love it. I love having, like the Celtics played in Indiana

two nights ago and then played again tonight. Dallas came, they played the Lakers on Christmas, then they played the Clippers two nights later. They made a concerted effort to, you know, because this is the feedback they got from the players. The players were like, the quality of basketball is better in the bubble because we didn't have to travel because you let us smoke pot. So the league's like, cool, we'll let you do both of those things.

We'll fix the travel and we'll let you smoke pot. What the outcome has been, and we saw this with Heat Bucks where the Bucks just annihilated the Heat, but now the Heat get to play them again later this week. And we saw with the Celtics-Indy thing where you end up having these two-game series that kind of feel like playoff series. So in the first game, you want to get the upper hand.

You're basically trying to sweep the series. You lose that first game like the Celtics did where they lost just an idiotic game in Indiana and then have to play them two nights later. And it's like, tonight felt like a playoff game. I watched the whole game. I was, I was really excited and nervous for it. Cause I was like, man, if we lose to Indiana twice, this is not a good sign for the season. So, um, I think that's really worked. And I, you know, the, the reason I think they were hesitant to do it was because of what happened to Miami, right. Where they don't

have Jimmy Butler for these two Milwaukee games where you would really need him. But that is a tiny downside compared to the upside of having these guys travel less. And then kind of the playoff field, the two game. Plus, if teams play twice in 48 hours, there's going to be some animosity in the second game. There are no fights in the Pacer-Salta game tonight,

but there was an intensity and a physicality that I really enjoyed. So anyway, that was a cool tweak. I'm glad they did it. Second thing I wanted to mention that Steph is just, Steph's back. We knew he was going to be back. We knew he was going to be good. It's been long enough since we watched him be Steph on a basketball court and got the YouTube videos, like the one where he made 105 straight threes today or yesterday, whenever that was. Just really fun to watch him. We've seen a lot of people swimming in the Steph pool the last couple of years, like specifically Lillard, Trey Young, who's been good to start the season. Steph's still the best at it he's still the most fun to watch

he is still the best shooter I've ever seen and watching him on this weird Warriors team they ended up pulling out pulling out a buzzer beater out of their butt in the third game and then they won tonight I think the cool thing about him for me

and one of the reasons I love that guy so much is just as a basketball fan is Damian Lee comes in and hits the game winner in a play that seemed like it was supposed to go to Steph. The happiest guy on the court was Steph. He's just the best teammate. He was prancing and flying. Duncan was the guy in the generation before. I think it's Steph for this generation. I don't know who it's going to be for the next generation, but the guy who's just a great player, but an awesome teammate who honestly doesn't care who, who got, who hits the biggest shot, who gets the most points, all that stuff. It's just nice to have him back. And you, you think like, which leads me to my third storyline, just that it's fun to have Brooklyn as a contender. The Durant-Kyrie thing is really fun.

They're really good offensively. There are nights, there's going to be 10 nights this season when they're going to look like the best team in the league. They lost Dean Witte, which, you know, even though his stats weren't great, it did one thing. It takes away a weapon that I had noticed early on where the pace they were playing at is a pace you can play at because they had three ball handlers. They had the two guards, Kyrie and and create plays, but also push it, it puts so much pressure on the other team. And you end up having these 10-0 runs, these 12-0 runs, stuff like that.

So they lose that. I think they can replace a lot of his offense. But stylistically, they lose something that I thought was a huge advantage for them. I think it's going to be a long up-and- um, you know, the Levert thing's weird. He's kind of overqualified to be a bench guy, but really the thing that makes them special is that other than having Durant Kyrie is that they have this bench where they can bring in Levert and Jared Allen, who would be starters on, you know, 22 other teams and they could just bring these dudes off the bench. Their second unit is loaded kind of in a way that's unusual in 2020.

But we'll see how they rally from the didn't we team. But the big thing for me is just that we have a cool contender team that we didn't have last year. So we have Brooklyn that we didn't have last year. And we also have Stefan Golden State, at least from league pass, from a league pass standpoint.

It's like, oh, cool. Those are two more teams. And then the fourth thing I was going to mention from a Storyland standpoint is just, I might've missed it on Atlanta. I don't want to overreact yet because they're 3-0 and they were all either mediocre or worse teams. And they might end up just being the good-bad team because they have a lot of offense, they know who they are,

and they might be the team that just beats up on other teams. We've also seen in years past teams start out 3-0 and then all of a sudden they're 3-20. But the Hawks do have a lot of offense. And Trey, I was talking to Russell about it tonight. I don't get it. I don't understand why Trey is treated like he's Michael Jordan in 1997 from an officiating standpoint, but he does get calls and the free throws that he shot in the first three games. I think he had 46

is nuts. It's eye test. Just watching it. The guy gets every call. And if he doesn't get a call, he's yelling at the refs. Like he's a 30 year super 30 year old superstar. But they have a lot of offense. I'm still not sold on them defensively at all. And I do think they have a lot of guys who like having the ball, which I think long-term makes me nervous. But they have a lot of firepower. And the Rondo thing was a great signing. So that was one of my locks when we did our over under podcast last week and now i'm like shit did i did i miss that one i might have missed that one we'll see we will see hey listen if i'm wrong about the hawks great that means we have one more fun team um biggest jumps that i've seen from guys i i wrote down seven colin sexton was the one and this started uh last season after the All-Star break,

before the pandemic shut everything down. But Sexton is probably the most, he would be my pick for most improved player as if I was betting. I'm not allowed to bet because I have a vote. But if you can vote, I would think Sexton would be the guy. He goes so hard on both ends

and he's gotten better offensively. And, you know, I got to say, I would think Sexton would be the guy. He goes so hard on both ends, and he's gotten better offensively. And I got to say, he's kind of the guy I want De'Aaron Fox to be in a lot of ways. I feel like Fox hasn't made that jump up a level, and now he's a max guy. I think people think that he's good, but I'm not sure he's the player that people think he is.

And Sexton is a guy that dude just goes hard. They lost tonight, but he is one of the most competitive guys in the league. I've been really impressed by him. Sabonis is another one. Sabonis was great last year, but then we didn't have him in the bubble. So I think, I think people probably forgot, but just a devastating front court guy. And he's really been impressive. John Morant, before he went down, looked like he was headed for an all-NBA season. That was a bummer.

Jalen Brown has been the best part of the Celtics this year and has gotten better every year of his career. And we're going to talk about the hardened rumors when Jackie and Bob come on, but could not be more pleased where he is. And I remember saying a couple years ago when there were rumors about, could they get Kawhi Leonard? Would you trade Jalen for him?

And I came on this podcast and made a whole case like, look, he has hit every checkpoint that Paul George did in Paul George's first couple Indiana years. And there's a world in which he might end up being like a 25 point a game score with, you know, first or second team, all defense, defense. And he's kind of headed that way. He's, he is, uh, been awesome. So him, D'Vincenzo on, on Milwaukee, I think they needed more from him this year, especially after the Bogdanovich trade went through. And he's been pretty good. He just seems more confident.

So that's a guy they need for crunch time. File him away. Fultz, everyone's been talking about him this week, but it's just an amazing turn of events. If you're a Philly fan, you have to be out of your mind. And what's crazy is I don't even know if that was one of Elton Brand's worst three traits,

but they turned Fultz into Jonathan Simmons in like the 20th pick in a draft two years later. And Fultz just looks like a real keeper. And I think he's only 22. And then the last one,

oh, Wendell Carter on the Bulls just looks like he's got out of whatever coma he was in last year. And then Giannis' brother, who is playing in these games and had a moment on the House of Highlights

Instagram feed where he was staring down some Nick two nights ago with some Greek death stare. That was fun. So those are seven guys that jumped out to me. And then some head scratchers, and then we'll go. Just some things that have me scratching my head.

First, the Pistons. We knew this was going to be bad. We knew this was going to make no sense. But they have turned into my league pass hate watch. I'm not alone because House and Marcela and I text about them during the Pistons games. Some amazing stuff going on there. Like Jeremy Grant, who's working on a 2017 West Brookian usage rate for them. He got what he want. He left a team that had a chance to win a title

for a chance to shoot 20 times a game for a team that's going to go 10 and 62. They do some of the goofiest stuff you'll watch on League Pass. They have close games where it's like they clear out for Plumlee and like let Plumlee cook clear out

he's facing up his guy to try to get to the basket yikes they're a train wreck I feel bad for Blake Griffin and I wonder like you know is there an exit for him cause that is not a fun team to play for. This is not the way to spend the last vestiges of, of the, whatever's left of his prime and whether he would want to explore a buyout, um, whether, whether they, he has any trade value at all, who knows,

but I feel bad for him. The Pistons are an abomination. And look, between Gores, Troy Weaver, wow. Wow. Troy, what are you doing? If your team's going to suck anyway, what are you handing out long-term contracts for? It just makes no sense. That was one thing. The second thing to me is the Kelly Oubre, just watching him on the Warriors, he's fine. He's a rotation guy, a little overpaid at 50 million. But the Warriors signed him. It was a $70 million tax bump to add him. And it was a total panic move. Quay goes down.

I guess they thought they were a playoff team. They wanted to kind of salvage it. And they bring him in. And I would not have done this. And watching them for the first four games and watching them compared to the other Western teams, I don't think they're a playoff team.

And I just can't believe that they spent an extra $70 million to basically have a shot in the play-in tournament to maybe sneak into the playoffs. Not great. Not great business by the dubs. A couple more. Darren Fox, I mentioned him earlier. I really want to see him be better this year. I felt like he was potentially in that kind of Donovan Mitchell level guy, and he's just not. And they're going to have to figure out this year what he is, what his ceiling is,

and does it make sense to flip him for more assets and give Halliburton the job? It's something to watch. Next one, New Orleans. I don't know what this team's doing. It's a combination of, they have two guards who can't shoot, Letso and Lonzo. They have Steven Adams for 18 million a year, which makes no sense whatsoever, but everybody's friends with David Griffin, so nobody wants to criticize it. I'm going to criticize it. I thought it was a terrible signing. They play Zion, Brandon Ingram, and Adams together,

which makes no sense. I don't know what JJ's doing on this team. He seems like he's a possible trade guy, especially for the Celtics, who have that $27.5 million trade exception. Team's a mess. Are you rebuilding? Are you trying to be a playoff team? What are you? And is Stane Van Gundy, do we have any idea whether he's going to be a good coach or not? He hasn't had a meaningful coaching moment in 10 years. This team,

I don't see it. So I need to see more. I'm going to put them in the I need to see more camp. Right now, that's not a team that makes sense to me. Houston is another one. That team is just on the death march until the Harden trade. Their defensive performance in the Denver game last night was out of control. And they tried to steal the Portland game. And that didn't happen. McCollum wouldn't let it happen.

And then the next game, Harden's jogging around. Jimbo Slice doing his thing. Oladipo and Indiana, I just watched them twice. That's a weird team because Sabonis and Brogdon are the two best players

in the team. But I think Oladipo thinks he's the best player in the team. And he's in a contract year. And he was really good tonight. That's a team that they kind of don't know who should be holding the steering wheel. Oladipo is an interesting trade piece to me because, uh, he does look like he's 95% back. So I'll, I want to see what they do with him.

Tatum. I had Mark down. He was good tonight. He was actually going to the basket. I please don't ever do step back threes again, please. For love of God. Scott Brooks was another one I had Mark down. He was good tonight. He was actually going to the basket. Please don't ever do step back threes again, please, for love of God. Scott Brooks was another one I had just because the Wizards are 0-4. I think they've been the worst coach team I've watched the last week. And I don't know if he's long for that job. And then the last one is just Toronto starts out 0-3. They lost to New Orleans, San Antonio, and Philly. The big thing for me is their centers are Aaron Baines, Alex Lynn, and Chris Boucher.

And last year they had Serge Baca and Marc Gasol. And this was a team that I felt like they overachieved last year because they were defending the title. Even in the playoff series, I have no idea how that series went. Seven games against Celtics, but it did. There was a lot of playoff know-how. And now it just feels like a different team. So if you were saying to me, 0-3, is this who the Raptors are?

I would argue this might be who they are. I'm not saying they're going to go 10-62, but this might be a 500 team and maybe even worse. I thought they were going to be better than that. They're going to need more from Ananobi, who they need him to be the breakout guy. I don't know going to be better than that. They're going to need more from Ananobi who they need him to be the breakout guy. I don't know if it's going to happen.

Toronto's one to watch because if they kind of move out of the picture completely in the East, that opens the door for a team like the Hawks. That opens the door for a weirdo team. I thought it was going to be the Wizards, but maybe it'll be the Hawks. But there's going to be a weirdo team that ends up with a record better the Hawks. That opens the door for a weirdo team. I thought it was going to be the Wizards, but maybe it'll be the Hawks.

But there's going to be a weirdo team that ends up with a record better than we thought. And it's, I guess, the candidates running out of the Magic and the Hawks. So there you go. That's everything I saw for the first week of the season. We're going to take a break.

Then we're coming back with Bob Ryan and Jackie McBone. We taped this yesterday. I love doing it. Love talking to them. And let's take a break. Then we're coming back with Bob Ryan and Jackie McBone. We taped this yesterday. I love doing it. Love talking to them. And let's take a break. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey.

Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring, he rocked that super soup strainer. Grow a mustache for Movember. You'll do great things too. You won't win the Super Bowl, but your fundraising will support mental health, suicide prevention, and prostate and testicular cancer research. And if you don't want to grow a mustache, you can still walk or run 60 kilometers, host an event, or set your own goal and mow your own way. Do great things this November. Sign up now. Just search Movember.

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Or the infamous deal on a new massager squeal. Save big on electronics, fashion, and more this prime big deal days, October 8th and 9th. All right. We're taping this Monday afternoon. We promised this for a while. Jackie McMullen has come on this podcast a bunch of times. We'll continue to do so. We had to get the commish, the original commish, Bob Ryan, who has seen it all, who's been following the NBA. How far back with Russell do you go? Do you remember most of the Russell? No, I came in at his absolute peak, 1964. He's 28 years old. He's at his peak absolutely then uh as a anti-seltic i was a philadelphia oriented guy um i i rooted against them fervently uh listened to johnny most got upset you know and i was etc uh but went to games my friends i fell in with a bunch of basketball

freaks of junkies and we would go to the double header games, you know, and the wilt games. And then when he was traded over in the January of 65 and maybe Laker game, you know, I was an Elgin guy. And, and so we would go to games, two dollars in the second balcony. That's at the Boston garden, 25 cents on the tee from the Boston college green line down to garden. You didn't need much money. And, and that was, it was one of my favorite stories and I'll shut up in a minute is the double headers. I was witness to a, a record that has yet to be broken.

And I doubt ever will be broken. And that is, I saw Will Chamberlain on a night in which he scored 52 points in the first game of a double header against the expansion. Supersonics set an NBA record by missing 22 free throws. Oh, my God. He was eight for 30. You know, I'm a box score freak and I hate the three because the three distorts the old box score. Will was 22, eight, 52.

And there's this box score, eight for 30. And he still scored 52. It's like science fiction. You're trying to explain, you know, the Tyrannosaurus is the kids today that such a thing existed, but I can assure you that he did. Well, can I just say there in a nutshell is why Bob Ryan is Bob Ryan. Like he remembers the game and what people shot from the free throw line.

But how could you, Jackie, when a guy misses 22 and sets a record. Yeah, I guess. I mean, that's a, I, when a guy misses 22 and sets a record? Yeah, I guess. I mean, that's a, you know, that's a no brainer. I remember,

like seven years ago, I was working on a column about asterisks titles. The NBA titles where there's some sort of either asterisk or foot. I decided they would be called footnotes.

And I called Bob because I wanted to find out about the 1973 finals and Havlicek's separated shoulder. And Bob proceeded to rip off the Celtics record during the Lakers that against the Lakers that year, they're 4-0. And you just, you laid out the entire case, but I basically cold called you. You had no idea why I was calling and just, you summoned it. Oh, but I mean, yeah. And the thing was that not only did they sweep him, but Cowens averaged 31 points and 19 rebounds in his four games against Wilk.

Of course he did. Wilk couldn't deal with the mobility thing at that point. You know, he had no lateral mobility at that point whatsoever. Anyway, had the Celtics beaten the Knicks, they would have annihilated the Lakers in the finals. I watched the Celtics last night. I don't remember what anybody had. Last night, it was less than 24 hours ago. You tried to block him out of your mind in the finals. I watched the Celtics last night. I don't remember what anybody had. Last night.

It was less than 24 hours ago. You tried to block him out of your mind in that game. Yeah, exactly. Do you two, you consider that 2020 title, the Lakers one, do you consider that a footnote title or a legitimate title? Because I'm actually on the corner of,

I thought it was a legitimate title. I thought the way the- Oh, 100%. The equal atmosphere, equal background, everybody was it was a legitimate title. I thought the way the equal atmosphere, equal background, everybody was going against the same things and they kind of rolled over people. I wouldn't put a footnote on that one. I would certainly not either. I entirely endorse it because the circumstances were just extraordinary. They were different, completely different. The best person survived that whole bubble thing, mentally, physically,

the whole thing. No, they deserved it. I have no problem with it. Yeah. And you just can't emphasize more the mental fortitude it required for this season. And I find out more and more, I'm sure this is true with you, Bill, now, the more you talk to people, you understand how daunting it was for so many people, people who have a close family unit that didn't see them for several months because, all right, maybe they couldn't handle it, but their kids were suffering. And when your kids are suffering, you suffer. We all have children. You know that. And so all these little subtleties that most of us probably didn't think about. And you say, well, OK, the NBA players are always on the road. They're away from their

families a lot. This was different. It required a different kind of mental tenacity. And I don't think it makes somebody weak if you didn't necessarily possess it. The best example for me of who suffered the most in the bubble was Pascal Siakam. There's no question about it. Now, Pascal Siakam, to me, urges all NBA stripes. He had a great year. He's one of those guys we're watching the trajectory go up and up and up. And then the bubble hits, and he's in an apartment, and his best friend is his brother, and they have nowhere to go. And he hasn't been doing this long enough, and I know this sounds crazy. He hasn't been doing this long enough to know how to train without a court

and a ball and a teammate and a gym and a coaching staff. And you saw the results of it when Toronto went into the bubble. He was a disaster. Now his numbers don't look disastrous, but they needed him to be Pascal Siakam with the capital P and capital S and he wasn't close. And is it all his fault? Not necessarily, but should he have done better about keeping himself in shape, keeping himself mentally prepared? The answer is yes. And so young guys like that who were pivotal to their team made a huge difference.

And so why did the Lakers win? Because they had the guy, LeBron James, who made sure nobody was going to slough off and everybody was going to understand exactly what they needed to do, what was expected of them. And if you weren't doing it, you might show up at your house or on your Zoom to make sure And everybody was going to understand exactly what they needed to do, what was expected of them. And if you weren't doing it, you might show up at your house or on your Zoom to make sure you were doing it. So there it is. Do you agree with that, Bob? Yes. I mean, Jackie spoke with detail about Siakam that I couldn't, but I know how subpar he was.

Yeah. And how important he is. I mean, he was coming off a terrific year. This was his year that he, this is his breakthrough year and on the public scene. And yeah. So that's interesting. No, I, I, I back to the original question, no asterisk for me. Congratulations. You know, you, I'm hearing stuff even from this first week of the season, you know, like a team like Dallas, they come here,

they play the Christmas game and then they have to stay here for two more days to play the Clippers. And the way they're doing this protocol stuff, it's like, you're in your hotel, you're not leaving. You're staying in your room. You were not going anywhere. And from what I heard and this, they're not the only team. I think the Celtics are in the same situation now because they're doing two in Indiana where it's just like, oh great. I'm in my hotel are in the same situation now because they're doing two in Indiana. Yeah, they're in Indiana. Where it's just like, oh, great. I'm in my hotel suite for the next 60 hours. And people think this is going to be a little like what you talked about with Siakam, where the mental piece of this season is going to be a really big thing

because these guys can't go anywhere. They're too famous anyway to go anywhere, but now they really can't go anywhere. I mean, the bubble was one thing. There was a certain curiosity about it. People saw these guys in an unusual circle. They saw each other. Coaches were talking about how they would be taking the walks and they'd be seeing the other coach from the other team and they'd say hi and have a little chat.

It was something about it. It was odd. The word I'm searching for. It was something of an adventure. It was a thing that you knew it was odd. And when it was over, you don't ever want to do it again. But you're kind of proud. It's like I feel, and please, everybody listening, I am not elevating myself.

My Army experience was U.S. Army Reserve. I spent four months on active duty at Fort Knox, Kentucky in the winter of 68, 69. It was not fun, but it was an experience that I wouldn't want to go to, but I had, I never had more laughs in my life because we were bonded all as we were bonded together. And, and I, it's my biggest experience with that. And really I wouldn't want to do it again, but I'm proud. I, you know, I'm glad I got through it. I think in the end,

this is an adventure that these, some of them can look at it. They'll never want to do it again. Now, what they're going through this year is a whole different matter with the travel possibilities of all the things that can go wrong on top of this isolation thing. This is a whole other matter. And they're uncharted waters. And I think that the public should understand that there could be some odd things going on, such as a team being down 50 at the half. Right.

Right. You're going to get a lot of your favorite box scores this year. At the same time, like thinking about some of these obstacles, which are obstacles, but compared to 50 years ago, like you're traveling with the Cowan Celtics in the 70s. You're getting dropped off in a cornfield, you know? You're getting dropped off in a cornfield because there's no train that can get you there. Seriously.

And then also there's switching planes, right? You're landing two different cities. They're flying, Cowan's just flying coach. That was a pretty crazy era too. And those guys all had second jobs that's the part i always i laugh at the most but people wonder why all these old guys are trying to get on as many commercials as they can it's because most of them i mean bob koozie was a was a auto driving instructor in the off season because he couldn't afford to be couldn't afford to be you know one

of the greatest basketball players that ever lived i do think i think the one thing you'll see with this year, and it's already happened a little bit already, is the injuries are going to skyrocket. It's impossible. We keep talking about medical science and the advances of medical science, and I know people don't like it when people have rest on the box score, but science proves it works.

It proves that players that do take those rests and do play if you're you plan it accordingly you're a better player a fresher player a more effective player at the end of the season there's no data that suggests any different okay now you're asking these guys to come back after a very very short amount of time and we've already seen dinwiddie i don't i mean towns is fractured wrist that's a little freaky that's fluky fluky but what i said that to someone else today that exact word fluky bill and the gm said me it's fluky but it's because guys are all running around the court a little willy-nilly like not quite the way they normally run you get tangled up with people that's not fluky that's just how about kawaii getting his getting his elbow from his teammate by flailing, right?

So, yeah. Yeah, but to me, that's a real thing, and I know people don't like it, especially the old school guys. You know, if you start talking to Mikael about it, who played with a broken foot in a space this big, he doesn't want to hear it. But it really is the future, and it really is the way you win championships is you keep those guys healthy in a way over a very long course of a season. And I just don't know how viable that's going to be right now.

One possible answer, which is never going to fly because the owners need to want the money of the games is okay to have a 70 game season, you know, acknowledge the times have changed. This year is going to be, but you know, 21, 22. Okay. Let's go to stick with 70. Not going to do that, you know, but that would help. Well, if they talk about expansion again, it's just hilarious.

Just hilarious. Wait, Jackie, I started that. I want all the credit. I planted my flag on Expansion Island because that's the only way they're going to make back this money. So who do you want, Vegas or Seattle? Which one? It's going to be both of them if they do it.

Yeah, they're going to have to. It's got to be an even number. Yeah. And it's going to be $5 billion because this was... I like it too. I like it too. This was theorized to me like a month and a half ago and I talked about it on the pod.

Oh, okay. The only way to replace the revenue that they're losing this year is with expansion. And I asked Cuban about it. He was on the podcast last week and he made the key point that I've heard as the counter argument, which is, hey, if we're bringing in two more teams,

now the media share gets, you know, instead of 130th, it's 132. So basically we're grabbing money up front, but long-term we're losing money. And he was basically like, it would have to be a big number. It would have to be 3 billion for Seattle and 2.5 billion for Vegas, whatever.

All right. So I'll play devil's advocate. Do you think that arena that they're playing hockey in in Seattle is an NBA-ready arena? Well, here's the thing. If you're Bezos and you have a kajillion dollars and people are kind of turning on you, wouldn't a great way to win some people back be to bring the Seattle Supersonics expansion franchise. Yeah, but you got to do something about that arena

because the people I've talked with has told me that arena is not an NBA ready arena. And I don't know how much money and time it costs to get that ready. Bob, you were covering the NBA when they expanded too fast and it had a lot of negative effects.

And then they did it a second time in the 90s. I think they'll be more careful this time. But the 70s are so weird. I remember working on my book trying to assess it where you had all the young guys who go to the ABA, they're doubling the number of teams in the NBA. And it's like, how the fuck do I know? How can I tell if Bob Bakken is averaging 34 a game,

what does that mean if the league is so diluted? Consider some of the things that happened In the immediate aftermath of the expansion Which was in the 1970-71 season When they went from 14 to 17 By adding Cleveland, Portland And Buffalo In 1972-73

That same year, one team won 68 And one team won 9 And There was direct results you know, of that, clearly. Yeah, it was a, and then, yeah, you're right. And then this was concurrent with the ABA. Oh, it was really wild at that point, no kidding. But the teams that they let in,

Buffalo was a victim of the worst screw job in NBAba history and and and the fans in buffalo did nothing wrong they'd be rightfully stayed away when when uh bob robert snyder snyder paul snyder and john wrapped the team you know yeah that was a wonderful franchise i have fond memories of great including one of my favorite nights ever you guys will love this i know jackie's heard this story. You probably have too, Bill. One night in Buffalo, it's circa 73, 74 when they had gotten good. And Silas says to me, how many are out there? I said, well, they're saying it's going to be in Full House, the biggest crowd in the history of Western New York. It was put everything in that framework, biggest this and that, the history of Western New York. And he said, good, we're going to send them all home unhappy.

There you go. But that was one of my all-time favorite guys, Paul Silas. So you have Buffalo over Seattle for cities getting screwed? Because they're definitely in the finals. It's 1-1-A. I think Buffalo over Seattle was about, you know, they were unfortunate that the city had built, you know, they built the dome, they built the football stadium. They weren't going in for a third one.

And once they got sold to the wrong guy from Oklahoma City, gee, I wonder what's going to happen now. Of course, we always worried about that with the Patriots in St. Louis at once upon a time. Yeah, but that was never real. That one was never real. It wasn't. Yeah, we don't have time to do that.

But I digress. But no, but you're right, Bill. I've long advocated that Seattle got screwed. But a few of us left that are waxing enthusiastic and fondly about Buffalo. But let me tell you, that was a good franchise. It's weird because I had Stern probably on my podcast at least once a year as the Seattle thing was happening. And then after Oklahoma city and all of a sudden they had Durant, Westbrook and Harden,

they had this great young team and Seattle just got screwed over. I was never satisfied with his explanation from it because he was on his hands. Oh my God. And Clay Bennett immediately became this important owner in the league. And I just never really understood what his angle was, other than that he wanted to make Seattle this kind of stalking horse for all these other teams to get arenas built the same way LA was the NFL team. That's the only explanation I could ever come up with. But that was a big one with them. He was always so focused on arenas. Remember what I remember when the palace opened, you know, Detroit Pistons play. It was spectacular, right? It's spectacular. And, and Stern said to me, yep, this is how it's going to go going forward. I said, are you sure?

Cause Davidson was an old school owner who, you know, loved his community. They were way, way outside Detroit. It never made sense to me to be all the way out there, except for, what was the place we used to go about the brothers and all the restaurant. Oh, it'll come to me. It'll come to us. Yeah. But anyway,

that, that never made sense to me. But the funny thing about expansion, if you think about the expansion of the nineties, which I was like two Canadian teams, forget about it. And you know, God rest the Vancouver Grizzlies skull and,

and big country reads beyond that. I don't know why we remember that, but think about it. The Toronto Raptors in Miami, he both won championships. Think about that. It don't know why we remember that. But think about it. The Toronto Raptors and Miami Heat both won championships. Think about that. It's pretty good. That's success. When you're an expansion team and win a championship within, I mean,

the Heat won it fairly. The one that I'm done is Buffalo slash Clippers. They're the one that have not won of those three that time. It'll never happen. It sure doesn't feel like it will. But it's been 43 years since Portland won. By the way, you mentioned Seattle. I just got to throw this in there as well about if you're an old-time

Seattle fan. When they won that championship, they had the two-year run where they lost in the finals in 78. We know DJ went 0 for 14 in the seventh game. And they won it in 79 when DJ had a phenomenal series in which, among other things, as a 6'4 guard, he blocked 19 shots

in a five-game series. But anyway, while averaging 20 points a game, my point is that was... And then he was called a cancer. That was a team that you thought could have been a dynasty.

Honest to God, Gus Williams and him. Jack Sikma was young. The only guy who... Lonnie Shelton, who of course eventually ate himself out of the league. You know, he was, but that looked like a team that had the population of long-term greatness.

Was Bruce Sears, was he on that team? You know, I have to check the late Bruce Seals. Yeah, just passed away. Just passed away. Do you know about him? Yeah, I do. I used to play basketball over there at lunch. so this guy,

uh, Bill, Bruce CLV, he was, uh, played for the Seattle Supersonics in the seventies. In the Sonics. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm not sure he was on that championship team, but anyway, he ended up getting out and going to, uh, Dorchester, Massachusetts and ran the boys and girls club that the Colonel Daniel Moore Boys and Girls Club. And so this former NBA giant was teaching all these little kids.

Well, I would like to tell you he was teaching them how to play basketball, but he was teaching them how to tie your shoes, how to be nice to other kids. And he used to open up the gym for us, Bob. He used to play over there at lunchtime. That's how we ended up going over there was because of Bruce. Really fantastic guy. Anyway, we – But I had no idea who was under my nose all these years

because I remember the name very, very well, but I didn't. And he died within the last two weeks. Just died, yeah. And I find out that there was this beloved figure. It was a very, very big story in the Boston community. And I was oblivious. I can't believe it.

Most of our listeners have no idea who he is, so we should probably move on. How your wheels hug the curves. And how, with the Pennzoil Platinum up to 15-year, 800,000-kilometer protection guarantee, your adventures will be many. Pennzoil. Long may we drive. Available at your local Canadian tire. Enrollment required. Keep your receipts. Other conditions apply. See Pennzoil.ca slash warranty for full details. Well, speaking of Boston, you mentioned the windows and that Sonics team.

I was talking to my dad last night. This is Sunday night. We're talking after they blew the Indiana game. And I've been thinking about this window the Celtics had that I don't think we realized was a window because they had these young guys, Tatum and Brown and Smart. And then they make these free agent signings. And you look back, I felt it last year, especially in the Miami series, thinking like, hey, man, the East is never more open and accessible than it is right now. We don't have to worry about Brooklyn yet. Milwaukee is just going to get better and better.

Miami is going to get better. This is the window right now. And they couldn't get it done. And you go backwards to 2018. LeBron sneaks into the finals with the worst Cavs team he ever had. And that Celtics team didn't have Hayward or Kyrie They almost win a game 7 anyway 2019 is a disaster There's this window there

And now it's gone And now I feel like they're not one of the top 4 teams in the East They had these 3 prime draft picks One of them turned into Collin Sexton Who's really good on this Cavs team. They got two years of Kyrie out of that. They got the Sacramento Memphis picks they thought were going to be

these signature picks. Neither of them turned into Romeo Lankford and Aaron Neesmith. And I'm starting to wonder, did they miss the window here? Now, I know they have Tatum and Brown, but just in terms of competing for a title with the nucleus

they have now, they might have missed it. So many teams got better in the offseason. It was a really productive one for several teams, including a team like Atlanta, which I'm telling you, they got better. And so Philadelphia certainly got better on paper. Yeah, no, I think you're right. But then again, the two ingredients they didn't have, they've addressed one of them, I think, decently, which is the Thompson thing, you know, that physical equality. I bring back Aaron Baines.

I was screaming all last year, you know, just when he started hitting those threes the way he did. So he was really a very productive player. Two injury prone. He's two injury prone. Okay. And the other thing, of course, is the shooting thing. You know, they have lacked that guy.

I've been saying and screaming for a couple of years that they had nobody on their bench. Forget about, you know, it didn't have to be Lou Williams. It didn't have to be the Vinnie Johnson in car, being in carnet. All it had to be was, was Eddie house and, and, and Oh, wait, they needed someone that you could rely on to come off the bench and hit some jump shots. Somebody who put on his IRS form registered jump shooter, you know, under occupation. And that is why they drafted Aaron Neesman.

Now he's not ready yet. And also secondarily, but maybe not so much secondarily, why they drafted Pritchard. And they need that guy. And they haven't had that. And that's the one thing that they could – if they had that component, maybe they would have done better. But I think it is scary to think that a window might have been,

if not closed, really, really narrow. Hey, listen, the window fell from the third floor and smashed into a million pieces when Gordon Hayward wrecked his leg five minutes into his NBA debut at the Celtics. No, really. That changed everything because you lost him that year. And then the next year, the mental gymnastics for that dude, the second year, you know, was brutal.

And then he's just been injury prone ever since. And that, to me, because that caused so many other issues, internal issues with Gordon. Everybody liked Gordon. There was never any problem with him personality-wise. Good dude, good teammate, didn didn't complain didn't cause problems but internally there was always this this you know jalen brown was on the ascent and gordon was like you know in pieces and their camps were always bickering about who should get the minutes and the shots and it wasn't those two guys those two guys i can't

stress enough they got along fine but it was all the peripheral noise. And you know what coaches always say. If you can ignore the peripheral noise, you have a chance to just ignore it altogether. It just wasn't possible with them. So there was always this sort of nit noise in the background. And so, you know, Kyrie leaving and Kemba coming. But Gordon, right from the beginning, crashing and burning and never really rising from the ashes. Well, he wasn't playing awful well at the end of last year.

Yeah, but then he got hurt. And then in the playoffs, for whatever reason. In game one, when they're up, you know, it just, then of course he gets hurt immediately and tried. Okay, I guess he's okay. He had 28 last night. So I guess the thinking's healed. But you remember the layup? I know Bill remembers this. There was 28 last night. So I guess the thinking's healed.

But you remember the layup? I know Bill remembers this. There was a layup he missed during the playoff. He short-armed it. And that's not injury. That's confidence. Confidence. Comfort level of being on part of a team. Just when he came back, it just, whatever the plan was,

and the plan was him and Kyrie. Remember the two of them in preseason that first year, how much everybody was talking about how they fed off one another, how great they were. And that started to crumble pretty early on the second year. Cause Kyrie's looking at him like, what are you doing, dude? Right. So that all went away. So, you know, it's funny.

I was thinking about that last, last night, Sunday night, cause Charlotte beat Brooklyn and Hayward at 28. And I was kind of sticking it to Kyrie's team. And I was like, Oh, this is an interesting wrinkle. But yeah, sometimes people are just snake bit on teams. Right. It also speaks to something that we have a snow and people just don't grasp enough. And that is that the human factor of the game, the fact that the beauty of this game is to just five people in one ball.

And, and, and that, you know, I remember when the young Kareem, no, the young Lew Alcindor, you know, comes in before he announces his name change. And you look at him some nights and you say, who needs a playbook? Throw him the ball. Let him get 60, 70. You know, who can stop him? But, you know, but you can't do that. The other guys have to be involved eventually, if not, you know, every other week and second. And the subtlety and why certain players are great to play with and other players who are statistics maniacs aren't good to play with. You know, it's the beauty of the game. I'm a fan of Pete Carilli. He wrote a book called The Weak Take from the Strong.

And it was all about this aspect of it. And so what we're talking about here, mere accumulation of great talent is simply not enough. It never was. It never will be, which is the genius of both Auerbach and Phil Jackson to manipulate, to orchestrate, to oversee, orchestrate to oversee the talent and implant the right thought processes and, and,

and insist on the right thought processes for these talented teams that they both oversaw. You know, it's funny. I learned more from Bob about basketball growing up than anybody. My dad's probably either one A or one B in that conversation. You were on this basically from the 70s on about it wasn't just about throwing talent together. That talent had to fit.

The motivations had to be the same way. And it seems like in 2020, teams still haven't figured that out. You even look at how the Clippers were thrown together last year. And I thought it was all a good idea. But then you think like the more we read about all the stories coming out from that season,

you had this, the old crew, the old Clippers who basically won nothing. They won two playoff games, but they had their certain way they did it. Kawhi and Paul come in, Doc's letting them decide when they get to practice. They're sitting out games wherever they want. And it's like, how did we not realize this was going to self-destruct in the bubble? Jackie, when you're like Philly is a good example right now of a team that I feel like could go either way. You just wrote about them. From a chemistry standpoint, the fragility now with the 24-7, the sports talk cycle, Twitter, social media versus what we were dealing with in the 70s.

It's night and day and you can have thing, and it unravels, right? Right, right. So the Sixers, to me, are interesting, endlessly interesting, actually. I've said before, I think I said it last time we were together, or one of the times we did, I do think these guys could play together, Embiid and Simmons. We have the numbers. We've seen them.

And I thought it was really interesting that the first thing Daryl Moore did was go back and look at that 2018 team that had Covington and Redick and Sarich and Embiid and Simmons. And that's the lineup that worked. And, you know, he's looking at the film and he goes back and he says, well, why did they break this up? Right. So he says, OK, who's my Redick? He gets Seth Curry.

Pretty close. I mean, Seth Curry at this point, pretty close to what Redick does. Who's my Covington? He gets Danny Green, a 3 and D guy who's streaky with the threes, but can still guard. Now, Danny Green's a little older. But again, pretty comparable. And then you plug Tavares Harris into where Dariuk Saric is.

That's an upgrade. That's an upgrade over that lineup. So now you put them all together. Again, let's talk about the peripheral. There will always be noise with those two guys. It's amazing to me how many people in philadelphia hate ben simmons i do not understand it i don't understand it because he doesn't shoot threes like really and so he seems to manage it very well the peripheral i really do

think he's the kind of kid he likes people to challenge him he seems to respond to people getting in his face that That's how he responds. Joel's the complete opposite. So the key to the whole thing to me is, can Joel block out all the periphery? He's off to an incredible start. He is. As a team, they're mixed results.

But as a team, you know, because they're going to play him in and out of the post, so they have a chance to do it. But I go back to, like, sometimes chemistry has to be created by the leaders of your team. And that's where it's fish or cut bait for Simmons and Embiid. If they can't keep this together, if they can't do it together, it's over. It's going to be over. We were talking about the chemistry thing.

And one team, I think, do you guys agree that the Warriors at their peak had, they did it. They played, they knew everybody seemed comfortable with. But it was difficult, Bob. Well, the first title wasn't difficult. I think it became difficult. It became extremely difficult. And it was a slog. And when they won, it wasn't joy.

It was relief. And, you know, it wasn't joy. It was relief. And, you know, Chloris in Basketball Love Story asked every coach, when you won, was it joy or relief? And I think it's a great question. And it was joy that first year. And then it was relief from there on out. And it was Draymond Green's personality got bigger and bigger.

That made things a little more difficult. Then you added Durant to the mix, who never really fit in by his own choosing because they did welcome him. Curry is like one of those dudes like, yeah, come on, man. Come on over to my house. Have anything you want in the fridge. I don't care. Eat my prime rib.

I'll have a hamburger, you know. And Durant's like, OK, but why is he giving me the prime rib? You know, he's a thinker and he can't get past it. No, it's true of it. What's in the prime rib? Is it poison? You know, this is the way Durant thinks. And so Durant never settled in there and felt part of it.

Even though he was a major reason, maybe the major reason, they won. So your point is a good one, but man, I'm telling you, talking to those guys, I covered those scenes. It was a major struggle. Major struggle. I left the 76 Celtics where

that was the classic relief rather than exultation when it was over. The one guy who was exempt from that was JoJo, who was the final MVP deservedly. But the rest of them were worn out and needed

to get that season over with which way, and they did. That's a good example of the five-year run, right? Which I think afflicted the Warriors too. Yeah, I knew that. By that fifth year, you're running on fumes. Red tried to bring some energy that year. He brings in Charlie Scott.

That brings all of its own. Tommy, the Tommy thing was over. It was, was running dry. Tommy Hudson. As the coach. Yeah, as the coach, I mean. Yeah, as the coach. I mean, it's just like, hey, how many times, endless times, you know, the cycles.

Red was the first one that I remember, at least to my ears, talking about the shortened cycles of the coaching cycle. Even then, Red Auerbach. But how about your boy Bird? Three years. No one should coach for more than three years. And by the way, he's wrong about that. He's wrong about that.

But he kept his word though. He should have, he should have coached one more year. They might've won. He did keep his word. Yeah. Right.

He did never go back. If he gets to the finals and he had no chance in the finals, but as you know, what grates him and will always grate him was that lost opportunity against the other year. Jump ball.

Jump ball. He blames himself, and they would have – I believe they had not swept. They totally dominated Utah. They would have kicked Utah's ass. So just so people know what we're talking about, there's a jump ball. They're playing the Bulls, and the Pacers think they can win.

And they're set up for a jump ball, and Smiths is jumping. And Dick Carter's yelling, Larry, timeout, timeout. And Burns is like, well, why is he having a timeout? And then he realizes Smiths never tips the ball forward. He always tips it backwards. And Reggie Miller was waiting. The minute he tipped backwards to step in front of Pippen, and all those guys, Reggie Miller was waiting. The minute he tipped backwards to step in front of Pippen, Pippen and all those guys, you know, Reggie Miller was there.

And Pippen just knew what to do and stepped right in front of him and took the ball. And they all say that's the reason. Larry blamed himself, Bill, for that, you know, for not being able to. Well, he said time out too late. You know, he should have listened to Harder. Harder was a good coach. He also, he told Jalen that, and Jalen was really proud of this because Jalen loved Larry, that if he could do the that, uh, and Jalen was really proud of this. Cause Jalen loved Larry that he,

if he could do the 98 series again, he would have written Jalen more than he did. And Jalen was always like, cause Jalen was young guy who was mad that he felt like he was one of the best parts of the team should have played for. And then Larry looks at you for five seconds and is like, I should have played you more. And Jalen melts like butter.

And it's like, Oh, the legend. I love this guy. I think with the culture stuff, though, you know, like Curry's a good example, right? You see Sunday night, Damian Lee hits a three. Curry's the happiest guy on the floor.

He's the best. Curry, Duncan. Yeah, there's certain guys like that that can create that culture single-handedly, which is why the Klay thing was such a bummer because I don't think that Warriors team is a playoff team. Curry misses now two years in his prime. Well, it just

hurts him that Green's not ready out of the box. Draymond Green needs to be sculpted, ripped, pissed off, ready to go. He might not be that guy anymore. He was 0-3 in those things. Yeah. Going back to the 70s stuff, you talked about that 76 team kind of running on fumes there the last year.

Do you feel that way about the 80s Celtics? Did you feel like, do you think that was injuries or more that they were together too long? The 80s team, you mean? Oh, well, just the end of that decade. 87 was clearly injury. That's when, up until that night in February, when Larry Nance stepped on his foot, Kevin McHale was ridiculously great. I mean, stupidly great. Just hilariously great. I mean, nobody could stop him. The only guy that stopped him,

that finally held him under 20 and took him at 50 games was Karl Malone. And no one else could even contend with him and then he was he was still kept you know he was never the same they didn't have any depth the year before as you know they came off the bench with Walton, Wedman, Seasting and and and they they were terrific off the bench that year the bench was Fred Roberts and Darren Day and yeah Roberts had to wind up starting too many games. All right. So, so that, that,

that was about that. They went as far as they did. It was amazing. Really. And yet if they win that game four, if Kevin controls that rebound. Yeah. Magic.

Bird says to this day, he thinks that was the most talented team, even more so than 86, which always shocks me when he says that. I'm not, I'm, I know. I,

I feel like, wow. I've heard him says that. I'm not, I know. Wow. You've heard him say that. I mean, it's kind of, because Walton's a non-factor right out of the box in 86, 87, right out of the box. When he played four games, six games. And I think total.

But you always just think back when he finally played late in the year and he got out there. Oh, he was fabulous. I remember. The second unit suddenly was a force. You and I were sitting next to each other. See, I don't remember the score. I just remember who I was sitting next to, and it was you. That's what I remember.

Look at this. Look at these guys. They all have a role now. They all have a function. Oh, my God, and it's all because of Walton. You can't explain how I feel. And then once injuries came, Bill, with that team, and everybody became a little more immortal, including McHale and Bird, including McHale and Bird,

then McHale and Bird's relationship started to sour a little bit. You know, Paxson came in. That seemed to be a bad mix. Yeah, it didn't go well. And I think it was hard for each of them to accept who they now were, you know. And that's the last guys to know that they're no longer dominant are the guys that are dominant. There were teasing moments, you know, such as the game against the Knicks in 90

when they scored 157 points in the first game. Well, that's Reggie. Now you're getting Reggie involved. And wind up losing the series. Yeah, they got Reggie involved too late. Reggie should have been playing sooner. And then the Indiana series, you have the one where Larry Bang

is head in the floor, you know? And that year, they finally didn't have enough gas. And, Indiana series, you have to win Larry Bang's head on the floor. And that year, they finally didn't have enough gas. And the Pistons were good, too. Let's not discount the Pistons. They were great. They were a really good team. And they were built to beat the Boston Celtics.

They were constructed with that specifically in mind. It's funny to think of the 80s Celtics and the 80s Lakers under the current context we live in now where nobody wants to stay on the same team for more than four years. You figure, if you took like 1983 McHale

and 2020'd him and you had 30 teams in the league and you had some Asian who's, you know, whoever 1983 Rich Paul is, who's like, hey man, I can get you to Minnesota for a max. You can have your own team. Right.

And that's it. It's so long 80 Celtics. It's done. Cause that's the way it works now. Although McHale's probably the wrong example because number one, he hardly had an agent almost the whole time. He didn't even have an agent cause he did it himself. And the second thing was he was like one of those guys.

He's still this way. He just doesn't care about personal athletes. Still, he didn't care about money. He always talks about his dad working in the mines, you know, like Parrish. He's your guy. He would have been gone in a flash. And I don't need to criticize Robert. I wouldn't blame him.

You know, he was the most underappreciated of all the Celtics in my book. He really, he told me once, and I once, and this was so shocking to me, he and DJ told me once that whenever the Celtics won, Burton and McHale would be on the front pages of all the sports. And whenever they lost, it would be him and DJ. And they really actually thought it was a racial thing, believe it or not. And yeah, can you imagine that? I think Maxwell agreed with that. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't discount either one of them. They both were, you know, either one of them said much at the time. They were both good teammates.

They didn't cause a lot of commotion. But both of them separately said the same thing to me when I was asking them about what it was like to be a black player in Boston. And they didn't feel that way so much about the fans. You know, things like that had improved. But I'm prepared to say, too, that when Bill Walton came to town, what am I going to do about Bill Walton? Bill Walton was everybody's favorite. Now, that might have had to do with his personality and his history as much as the color of his skin.

But that's what those guys were feeling. And that's in the 80s, man. That's, that's not in the sixties. We're talking about the eighties. Did they not have a better records without Paris? I mean, I mean, when, when, excuse me, without bird, you know, with Paris, without burden McHale, they had a better record with Paris than when either of the other two were missing from games.

Yeah. Yeah. It was really important to them. But think about it, Bob. How often was Parrish featured in the offense? Hardly ever. And Bird was smart enough on a fast break, if you got one of those steals, to know that Parrish was going to be trailing. And instead of laying it up, he dished it off to him a few times. It's, again, talking

about chemistry, Bill. You're talking about chemistry and keeping people happy. Bird was really, really good at that. Let the big guy eat. This is a good segue to Harden because Harden's been the most interesting story of the last three weeks. I think people actually forget how unbelievable he is. He dropped 44 after all of that. I couldn't believe it. With a bunch of dudes he had literally just met. I mean, Tucker was out there, but there was five guys that teammates he hadn't even played basketball with. Couldn't believe it.

And he was completely dominant and is one of the best offensive players of all time. And yet nobody wants to really make a real offer for him. That's the point, right? It doesn't matter who he plays with. He's going to do what he's going to do. He's going to do point, right? It doesn't matter who he plays with. He's going to do what he's going to do. He's going to do it, right? I mean, he's going to dominate that ball. He's going to do it. Especially when there's guys he doesn't know.

He made a grudging concession to Westbrook, I guess. I'm not. Look, you can't get away from the numbers. The guy's bled the league in scoring three years in a row. He's phenomenal. The range on his jump shot, the package with the way he scores, with the ability to either take it to the hoop and get fouled and lead the league in free throw attempts or to step back with that three from distances that are, you know, only Curry probably can match him with that

is fine. But I just think it's something there psychologically that I wouldn't want to play with him. I can't believe that other good players really want to play with him. That when he's going to dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble 18 seconds and then decide whether he's going to do what he's going to do or honor you with a pass. And yet I'll say this for him, which is amazing. And I could be 100 percent wrong on my evaluation of him. How many times after a game when you see in box court, he's got eight, nine, 10, 11 assists and you say, I wrong on my evaluation of him. How many times after a game when you see in box score, he's got eight, nine, 10, 11 assists. And you say, I don't remember any of them.

My theory is that he's bribed every scorer in the league. Secretly, but all kidding aside, don't, isn't that right? Or don't you come away looking and say, how many assists? Where'd they come from? The 17 seemed high the other night. Yeah. About him. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he knows how to pass out of a double.

You know, what he's good at, if he sees the double coming, and you know this, Bob, so many guys wait too long. He never waits too long. Now, he'll either shoot it or get rid of it. He's good that way. He's really a basketball savant in many, many ways. And I understand why teams are tempted. Because that game that's the 44 i was like he looked like the man that ate james harden a week earlier right you thought it looked like he had you know he looked like charles barkley before the draft

when he was trying to eat his way out of philly you guys know that story yeah yeah yeah how his agent told him that they uh the Sixers don't have an exception they can't pay you a lot of money you got to figure out a way not to be drafted by them so he and his agent went to Denny's and ordered the Grand Slam breastless three times a day and he gained like this is a true story he's getting like nine pounds in three days and then Harold Katz drafted him anyway you know but anyway oh my god so Harden looked like that and you thought well this this can't work and then he goes out and shows you why it can work so let's just since we're all from boston

if you're the boston self okay oh no i knew you're gonna do this but you got it you got it so you lose that game to the pacers the other was that just last night it feels like yeah i don't know anyway okay so clearly that game you're just going, are you kidding me? Right? What is Tatum doing at the end of the game? Now, Tatum is an extraordinary talent, and he's 22. I'll cut him some slack. But if you're the Celtics and you're talking about that window you were just talking about, Bill, okay?

And you could take on this otherworldly offensive talent. Are you tempted? You have to be tempted. Well, you have to tell people what the offer would be. Well, it would probably be Jalen Brown and Marcus Smart. I think that's what it would take. Yeah, but Bob's putting his hands in his hands. I know, I know.

And I understand. I personally, I can't do it. No, I get it. I get that. For two reasons. I just, I'm at the point in my life, especially because we've won a lot of titles for all my favorite teams, where I just want to For two reasons. I just, I'm at the point in my life, especially because we've won a lot of titles

for all my favorite teams, where I just want to root for guys. I love Jalen Brown. Who wouldn't? He's unbelievable. On the court, he's gotten better every year. Off the court,

I think he has a chance to be the most impactful Boston athlete we've ever had. Agreed. I really think he cares about real stuff that the country,

the world needs right now. And he could be a real ambassador for them in so many different ways that to me, that outweighs Harden alone and you're for Harden. And it's like, how fast can this end for him? Because, you know,

I, I think it's fair to say he, he leads a pretty lively life, you know, and could this, could he be his prime be done in two years? I don't know. No, I just, I personally don't think it's worth it.

And I love Marcus too. And this is the fan. I'm not cold-blooded GM person. I'm just, I like rooting for these guys. Because here's the cold, what the cold-blooded GM says. And I'm not, listen, no one loves Jalen Brown more than me, I don't think.

And, you know, Jalen's not always been happy with me because I've had to write some difficult things about him early on in his career. But I just, what I wanted to see was exactly what he gave me. Five seconds into the season, he's driving to the basket, he's drawing contact, and he's finishing. He's finally learned to, like, turn his wrist. You know what I mean?

He's finishing. So all that aside, Danny Ainge once, I forget who it was. It might have been Tony Allen we were having the conversation with Tony Allen I think it was when Tony Allen went and signed with Memphis and I was like wow I thought you guys were going to retain him it's not like he went for a ton of money he's so important to the your culture your locker room this defensive toughness all those things he's he's Marcus Smart is really what he is. Okay. And a little less crazy than Marcus, right? We love Marcus, but Marcus is, you know, like Tony Allen knew not to take 10 threes in games, right? Okay. So I'm like, wow, that's pretty tough. And Dan's like, yeah, it was man.

I, you know, we don't want to lose him, but there's reasons, whatever. And I said, yeah, how are you going to replace him? And he said, you know, I don't know if we can, but we're going to try and said, Jackie, I love defensive players, but I can always find them. I can't find a lights-out scorer. Those are the ones in the generations. Lights-out scorers, those are the guys you can't find. You can't beat the bushes, and one's going to fall out. It always sticks in my mind.

That's how GMs think. That's what James Harden is. I'm not surprised to hear him say that. I'm thinking that there's levels even of those defensive players. And Smart is at the top of any list of defensive players in the league right now. I think there's nobody quite like him. I don't care what facsimile you got. It's a facsimile.

There's nobody quite like him. But I'm with you, Bill. This is strictly from a fan standpoint. I'm not greedy. I'd like him to win. I root for them to win. I never made a secret of it even when I was covering them, but, but I don't want James Harden. I don't want to watch that game.

I abhor his, what he does. I don't like it, but what he's chosen to do as good as he is, I don't want to win with him and I don't want the whole package either. I don't want to, you know, so no, I don't want to do it yet. I would not be shocked if everything that Jackie just said about the way that Danny would have to think about getting that once in a generation scoring thing ever happened. But I wouldn't be happy. And I'm not. No, and listen, don't mistake that.

I want to do this deal. I'm just playing for the purpose of our discussion. I'm explaining how GM's think. And I think it's been sitting there for a week. And I think it's been a little more serious on the Boston side than maybe people realize. Not, do we need to do this? It's just like, holy shit, it's James Harden.

It's right there. This guy is one of the best four players alive. And, you know, he's been on this Rockets team that year after year has competed at a high level. Throw the bubble year out. That was weird. Westbrook got COVID. He got hurt, all that stuff.

But the two years before, they were the third best team in the league, maybe even the second best team. So, I see it. I'm just, for me, it's like I want to root for Tatum and Brown and Smart. And I think eventually... We all do. That's the nucleus. But I... But is it good enough?

Is it good enough? But Danny's cutthroat. That's the difference. Danny is going to do whatever the best trade is that will get them closer to the title. And he's going to remove all human element out of it, which I don't know if you can do in this case with Jalen and Marcus.

I think those guys are too important to the city. I'd like to sit down over a beer with Chris Paul and ask him what he thinks. I want to hear what he really thinks about Well, they were one hamstring away from going to the finals. They really were. One hamstring pull away from going to the finals. Jackie, did you hear

because I heard Brooklyn cooled off on Harden and I think one reason was D'Antoni. It was kind of like, we're good. Keep what you have. I think he presents some problems. It's interesting now with Dinwiddie out, what'll happen there.

You know, Karis LeVert will probably go into the starting lineup. So, I don't know how that's going to work, honestly. I thought it was really good for LeVert, and I'm sure he didn't think this. I thought it was really good that they were bringing him off, because it took some pressure off him,

gave him some chance to get going after the second unit. And I think he's a talented young player who isn't there yet, right? Another guy that just isn't there yet. So it'll be interesting to see. Same for Jared Allen too, both of those guys. Right, right, right. And Jared Allen, because of the weird DeAndre Trojoka and the blood pact that they all made, like he has to start for some reason, whatever.

It doesn't matter if Jared Allen closes and plays more minutes, which generally what happens, that's how you can cover that track. But if you're Karis LeVert and it doesn't go well and Kyrie starts in with you, what damage does that do to this really fine young player that has a chance to be something special? I'm just curious to see. Well, with Brooklyn, I think you can get away with it this year where LaVert is a completely overqualified bench guy, right? He can come in and literally carry your offense for seven minutes each half. Jared Allen's a completely overqualified big guy. You can do it once, but then the disease of war kicks in. Let's say they won the title, made the finals.

Terry Rozier. Totally. Levert's not doing this again next year. He'll do it this year if it leads to something. Bob, can you compare and contrast 70s and early 80s George Girvin to Harden from a scoring slash can you actually win a title if this is your best guy standpoint? That's a very interesting one. I was not the biggest fan of him either. But boy, now I look back at him with more fondness due to the nature of his game,

which of course was more of a mid-range game. But that's an interesting one because remember they had multiple scorers. That was a very potent offensive team at different points in time. So that's a good one. I'd have to think about that. You've told me there.

Well, remember they're up 3-1 against the Bullets. And then Dandridge took the series over. But even in game seven, they were up like 10 in the fourth quarter. Yeah, I was privileged to cover this. That was a wild summer. 1979 was one of my finest memories of bouncing around, I'll tell you then say, you know, my biggest concern is my glove golf club doesn't allow six sums on Thursdays. There's never anything like Doug Moe. I can tell you right now, but anyway,

very interesting one. I hadn't thought about the Iceman in the context of Harden because I know there's a contrast. Okay. There's no way. No, Iceman didn't have to have the ball dribbling it 15 times before he made a move. The styles are really not quite the same. The thing about Iceman was, A, the longest

finger roll in history. He could finger roll from eight feet. This is astonishing. And B, the lack of a fixed release point. He could release his shot. It must have been just so frustrating to guard because he could reach the shot behind the head

over here, over there. That's Durant. Yeah, like Durant does. Yeah. Yeah. But he wasn't as... Durant's so smooth. The game just flows out of Durant.

That's a little bit different category for me than the Iceman. Is Durant the best scoring forward you've ever seen? Just think on the time I had. Right now, for a short period of time, about two or three periods, Bernard King was right there. The Bernard King of 84-85. The Bernard King who went back-to-back 50s.

The Bernard King who had the quickest release on the box I have ever seen. I called him Mazeroski. I mean, on the double play. Quick. Game one, 1985. The Pistons and Knicks. Hubie versus Chuck Daly. Game one and Silverdome, right?

Hubie Brown called Bernard King's number. Power right. 13 times in the first quarter, 13 consecutive times, and he got 22 points out of it. Why don't coaches do that more? Potential 26. I mean, Bernard King, so in any discussion of

great scorers in history, we have to make an allowance for that, the moment, the window for Bernard King. Yeah, that's a good one. He was the only non-Celtic that I really loved in the 80s just because there wasn't anybody like him.

And I think that the thing with Durant that I think I had forgotten just because we haven't anybody like him. And I think the thing with Durant that I think I had forgotten just because we haven't seen him play basketball in a year and a half is just how easy it is for him. And I was really worried, is he going to be 90%? Yeah, it's just every decision he makes.

Well, he slows the game down. He's playing at a different speed than everybody else. That's what jumped out at me seeing him these first two to three games. Everybody else is going like this, and he's like, he can go fast, but he can

do that three-quarter pass that Kevin Love does so well. He can do so many different things, and he can shoot over you, he can take you in the post, he can shoot under you, and then he can draw a crowd and make the perfect pass. If he can stay healthy, all the preseason MVP,

nobody's talking about Kevin Durant. Why weren't we? I said it last week. He was 13-1. And it was like, this guy, he's one of the three candidates. How is he 13-1? That's right. You're better. Did you put some money on that? I vote on it, so I'm not allowed to bet on it. But I was telling my friends, I was like, Durant's the best value.

He should be 4-1. He's 13-1. Yeah, that's a good bet. I checked the Boston Globe last week, the day of the season open. One guy voted for Durant as MVP. You? Oh, look at you. Oh, wow.

See, there you go. So I want to just get, if I can, I want to get back to Harden again for one second. And I'm just curious what you guys think about this. One of the nagging things about Harden for me, aside from his obvious ability, is – and I know – we know that he wears down at the end of the season. I mean, so that's easy to me. It's easily fixable. You just play him less minutes and you do the rest that I was talking about before. But there does seem to be something about clutch situations.

I'm not ready to say he can't perform in the clutch, but I feel like, and maybe it's like I was at a game as a fan. I was at the game around Christmas time. I think it was a couple of years ago at the Garden when Smart threw those two charges in a row and he completely threw the game away. Now, I know it was just a regular season game, but he got himself so worked up.

He couldn't even make the right basketball play. And I'm wondering, is that something that you would, if you had Harden, would you worry about him closing the deal? Or do you think- Well, so- Man, it's probably-

Yeah. I did a book of basketball pod with Zach Lowe last year, and he theorized that Harden, the comparison is actually Karl Malone, where he's your guy for the first 46 minutes. But do you trust him in the last two? And this is, unfortunately for him, his legacy. He's one of the great offensive players ever. But over and over again in these playoff situations, you know, Bob, what do you think?

Well, you mentioned, you know, you pushed the button with me because I've many times said Carl Malone is the most overrated great player in NBA history. And I could name, I used to, I really did this. No longer. But when I was still working back in, you know, I carried around in my pocket a list of 15 forwards I'd rather have than Carl Malone historically. Give us number 14. Put that list on eBay. Just give us number 14. You mentioned one of them, Bernard King. Bernard King, yeah.

I went down, I don't know now. That was ancient history. Well, McHale. McHale would have been one. Oh, of course, McHale. Barkley. Bob Pettit. Oh, my God.

Come on, we can go on. Well, before the previous generation, Elvin Hayes was the guy that you were always. That's my God. Come on. We can go on. Well, before the previous generation, Elvin Hayes was the guy that you were always... Yeah, that's my bet. Right, right. Yeah. And George McGinnis was second. I felt sorry.

George was a waste. He was a squandered talent, you know, with that body. You know, he wasn't a bad guy. He was a... But, you know, anyway. Anyway. I remember Doug Collins

would tell me about halftime McGinnis just smoking a, smoking a cig, getting ready for the second half and he was just like

this chiseled, amazing body. He was done by the time he was 30. Yeah. He was done and he was pathetic in the end because he wouldn't go to the basket

because he didn't want to shoot free throws. Antoine Walker-Adis. Yeah, a lot of guys line that up. It's true. And yet you look at the numbers he put up, even his first couple of years in Philadelphia, and he was still putting up huge numbers until that free throw thing

and conditioning, those two things got him in, brought him down. But anyway, it's kind of part of his package is that the playoff thing has been a letdown. And him. So I would have to answer your question. I would have some concerns. So here's my follow-up. If you managed him differently,

if you managed his minutes differently, if you gave him days off, if you took the ball out of his hands a little bit, would it change? I don't know the answer. My answer to this is, I think in a seven-game series, it gets easier. It's almost like when the Red Sox would play Mariano Rivera 23 times in a year. And by the 19th game, they were kind of ready for the cutter, right?

They'd seen it a million times. Well, at least they kind of had some sort of a feel for it, but with the Harden thing. I think I don't know where it was. Let's all say that. Yeah. Yeah, Bill Murrow,

definitely. Another one of Bob's guys. But, the Harden thing, it does seem like as the series goes along, it gets easier for the other team

to figure out his style. He has the ball so much. He does. I also, I was there for the Clipper game when the Clippers self-combusted in game six,

when Josh Smith and Corey Brewer brought the Rockets back. But Harden was so bad in that game and basically checked out in a way that I just can't forget it. You know, he was on the bench with a towel on his head. He was completely checked out. He was sulking. He was mad.

Like LeBron back in the early 2000s against the Suns. Yeah, yeah. So that was a weird one for me. But I find it hard to believe you can win with that style. Nobody's done it yet. With a guy who has the ball that much, nobody's actually won the title that way. Yeah, that's true. So you'd have to change the way he plays.

I did a story on the Rockets the year after that when Paul came. You know, Paul came to Houston. I did a cover story for the now dearly departed ESPN magazine. And what's – oh, Irv Rowling. You know that name? He worked with Harden and some of the other guys. And he was working with Harden that whole year. And he said people were actually calling him and saying, did your boy Harden throw the game?

Like people actually thought he threw the game. That's how bad it was. Now, of course, he didn't. I don't mean to suggest for a second that he did. Obviously, he did not. I can't be any clearer than that. But imagine people even thinking that. Right.

Being so bad that people are like, what is going on with this guy? Yeah. Yeah. Pretty crazy. It's a weird one. I think Bob and I are aligned on Harden. Yeah. So, you know me. I'm not. You guys weird one. I think Bob and I are aligned on Harden. Yeah. So you know me, I'm not, you guys are we, I'm still they,

and I'm going to try to fight to the death. I've only got like two or three years left in my career and I'm trying not to slip into the we. And so that's why I'm playing devil's advocate here for you. I'll give him this. He's had a very unusual career arc in that I can't think of anybody else who has attained the heights that he has, the three scoring titles, et cetera, and the stature that he has, who started out where he

started out in the pecking order on his team, which was a sub who was a member. They traded him to keep Serge Ibaka. I remember that. Not that there's anything wrong with Serge Ibaka, but he's never going down the street away. Harden will. But I'm saying, think about it. Look at how far he's come in esteem. And so he made it happen, right? Yeah, he works at it.

He works at it. I know he was a fifth pick in the draft, but still the fact is in Oklahoma City, he was a nice adjunct at first. At first, you know. And I don't know too many guys who take that extreme elite during the course of their time. Not too many.

Yeah. But at the time we all knew that was a bad idea though. That's not revisionist history. We all knew at the time it was a mistake to let Harden go. We did. I lost my mind. Yeah, I did too. I couldn't believe it.

Well, especially because they just could have kept them for like an extra 6 million. It wasn't much money. Yeah. It wasn't believe it. Well, especially because they just could have kept them for like an extra six million. It wasn't much money. Yeah, it wasn't much money. If you had to bet, where is James Harden in March? What team is he on? You could bet on any team. Yeah. So it's a given.

You're saying it's a given that there will be another Dustin. Yes, because I think once an NBA star is unhappy, it's almost like when a celebrity relationship, when it starts falling apart, you know they're going to break up. I still got to believe it's Bookman in the clubhouse, leader in the clubhouse. I still got to believe it.

Interesting. I would, I say Philly. Yeah. See, Philly, it's just because Daryl Morey basically told the whole world that he saved his career. And they have the piece that would probably get it done more. He basically told the whole world that he saved his career. They have the piece that would probably get it done in Simmons. If

Philly stumbles a bit, it absolutely could be Philly. I would say the three wildcard teams would be Boston, we mentioned. I think Denver could put together. Houston does like Porter Jr. There's no question. Who wouldn't like Porter Jr.? they could put together a Porter Jr. Gary Harris,

a Kajillion picks, whatever. And then I think Portland's the other one, whether McCollum and Collins and Simons and more first rounds, whether that's enough. I mean, remember when we thought, remember with Jimmy Butler a couple of years ago,

we never expected he would get traded for Covington and Sarich, and that would be the entire deal. But that's his stock fell because he sabotaged it. And that's my fear with Harden. But again, let's get back to what Danny Ames said. Jimmy Butler would never be considered a elite. I mean, he was fantastic in the bubble. But again, you think of him as a tough guy that plays both ends,

defends. He's not a once in a lifetime generational score. That's the difference between the two. You can't lose sight of that because those are the, those are the unicorns. Yeah. Before we go, can we talk about the force?

So sad. So, so December 23rd, I just have to tell you, my kids were home. It was Christmas. The game is on. And my son looked at me and he said,

you do realize if there was no pandemic, we'd be at the fours eating and then we'd be going to this game. And I was like, yes, very depressing. So for the people listening, the fours was, I think an iconic Boston sports bar is right across the street from the garden. And I don't remember when it started to become the place that people went after the game. And it was a mix of, you'd see media members in there, you'd see athletes, all this stuff. And it became a pandemic casually. But Bob was, I think Bob might've invented the force, people going there. But before that, it was the Scotch and Sir line, right? Wasn't that the first one? That was up the street. That was up the street. Up on the eighth floor. Yeah. I had my bachelorette

party there. No lie. I swear to God. Tell me I'm not a basketball junkie. I had my bachelorette party. The man was on a lunch pail, right? On a lunch pail. Black lunch pail. That's right. And at one point, Parrish did

commercials for them. They're on YouTube. Yeah, you can see them on YouTube. And at one point, Parish did commercials for them. Yeah. Right. They're on YouTube. Yeah, you can see them on YouTube. And you know, Bird used to pick up the tab at the Scotch and Sir Lane after the game. Very quietly, pick it up for the team over there. Can you imagine in 2020 if like LeBron and the Lakers were doing these cheesy commercials

for some local steakhouse they like just to get some free steaks? The 80s are so different. All right. So the fours, it becomes the place and it lasts for 30 years. Bob was kind of the, I got to be honest, the kind of the mayor of the fours, right? You were, you were there. I met him there many times. I had to meet him at four o'clock. I had tossed him in the late nineties. It was like, there's Bob Ryan. Let's go talk to him. Well, I would meet him beforehand because we had to be over the arena three million hours early. So I was eating lunch at like four in the afternoon with Bob.

Yeah, four o'clock. Four o'clock. Steak tips. Teriyaki steak tips. Steak tips were Bobby Orr steak and cheese. All good. No, the memorabilia was priceless. I mean, the foresight.

But some of the stuff, they had an know sadly you know they had to have it but uh and now look we're not and of course they they were very grateful to get this accolade from the sports illustrated 10 years ago 12 years ago i was ian thompson man don't sleep on ian thompson you made that happen mar and america which may or may not be true naturally but it was was among them. But yeah, it was said, and you know, feel sorry for all these entrepreneurs, all these restaurateurs, art owners. Oh my God. It's in America. It's just. Eastern standard is gone too. Eastern standard. It's like one of my other favorites right out, right.

Right in Kenmore square. That's Garrett Harker's place in the oyster Creek, oyster house, both of them gone. Yeah. I mean, there's so many horrible things from this pandemic, but you think of some of these places that were really part of people's lives and they're just kind of disappearing left and right in

every city, you know, and the forest is a good example of like, oh man, it's been so many times, so many nights there and boom, it's gone. You know what I was thinking about was Hammersley's. Hammersley's closed just in time. They closed like a year before the pandemic, and they closed on their terms, which is a great thing for them because that was a great place to.

And so people on the outside didn't know the force was named after number four, Bobby Orr. Hence the name. That's where the name comes from. Hey, did you know you could bet on college football on New Year's Day with an exclusive 25 to 1 odds boost on FanDuel Sportsbook? Oh, yeah, you heard it right. FanDuel Sportsbook giving new users an exclusive 25 to 1 odds boost on the two biggest college football games of the year.

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809 within Indiana. 800 gamble in Jersey, Pennsylvania, Illinois. 800-889-9789 in Tennessee. 1800gammer.net in West Virginia. Last thing before we go, the whole media coverage thing now. Jackie's still in it. She's one

of the last ones that actually has the gravitas to go into these situations like the Philly thing. And they kind of have to give you time because of who you are. When we get to the next generation, um, I think it's going to be harder and harder to get time with, with, with these dudes. And honestly, they're not incentivized to do it. Maybe they shouldn't be, but, um, you know, and Bob was covering the Celtics in the seventies

and the eighties, and then he passed the torch to you and he's teaching you all the tricks. What year did this change? When did this become different? Was there a tipping point moment you could remember? Oh, I think the two things that altered the landscape and that started the trend downward for the media in the NBA, I'm always speaking now of the NBA, where charter flights and the Chicago Bulls. Charter flights, self-explanatory. I mean, you know, you used to arrive at the airport with them, you checked in with them, you rode with them. You rode on the bus?

You rode on the bus to practice and back, and then shoot around in the game. They held the bus up in Cleveland so Steve Volpett could finish his story, and we got on the bus to drive back in from the Richfield Coliseum. Right. To the Boston Hall. They did.

I mean, it was just, and nobody batted an eyelash. You know, we were part of the deal. All right. And the Bulls who became, the Celtics were something of a traveling rock star group, but the Bulls with Michael became, that was a whole other level. And then they built the Berto Center and people didn't even know where they were, whether they were practiced and closed practices. When I started covering one team in the league had closed practices, the Knicks, no one else, nothing's ever changed. No one else did. All right. So I might embarrass you, Bob,

but I have to tell the story and I don't even know if you remember it, but we used to be able to go to practice beforehand, watch the entire practice, and then get the guys afterwards. I don't know if you remember this, but we're in the Hellenic College, which is where the Celtics used to play. I'm very young. And you and Mike Carey got into a shouting match. Do you remember this? Yes. And they got into a shouting match.

I don't know what the issue was. I don't know. And God bless Mike Carey. He's since passed. But they stopped practice. And they said, Bob, Mike, shut up. And then after that, we were never allowed in before practice anymore. That was the end of it. Wow. That's a true story. I don't want to dispute that story, but we'll go there only because I well, anyway, I.

It was it was it was headed that way anyway. anyway. But that was the last straw. It was headed that way anyhow. But that's how I got to know. People always say to me, like, how did you get to know all those players? I'm like, I was so frightened. I was taking over for you. Are you kidding me? I was so terrified to miss anything.

I would go two hours early. I'd stay two hours after practice. You know how they had two days in the preseason? I would go two hours early. I'd stay two hours after practice. Like, I just, you know how they had two-a-days in the preseason? I would go to both sessions. And I remember once I walked in and Chris Ford was assistant coach. He goes, what are you doing? The media only comes to the morning one. I'm like, oh, I'm like afraid, you know, and I would be there.

And that's how I happened on that story when Bird was mad at Jan Volk about his contract. I was the only reporter there, and he had said something earlier in the day and I wasn't sure I got it right. This is how pathetic am I? I saw, he must've thought I was so pathetic. And I'm like, Hey, I don't mean to bother you. I know you talked this morning, but you said something. And I just wanted to double check what you said, you know? And he had in the time of the morning and the evening session had found out that Jan Volk had said, he's not here. We don't know where he is. And he was just waiting. And he, and I, meanwhile, I had been sitting with Jan Volk in the stands the entire practice. We were the only two people in the gym besides the players. And so Larry goes off on him because he probably saw me sitting with him, right? I had to go home, no cell phones,

and call Jan Volk at home and say, hey, he goes, didn't I just see you? I go, yeah, but it's happened between now and then. But that's I but it was more not because I was some savvy reporter. I was just terrified to mess up. But we had so many opportunities to develop relationships with those guys. You know, it's very difficult to do now. Yeah, Bob, you had to win. Basically, you had to win Bird's respect with what you wrote. Right.

And then once he accepted you, everybody. I, you know, it wasn't really what I wrote. I don't think it was just conversation because there was never ever, ever any evidence that he ever read a word that I wrote. There was never anything like that. I finally asked him once and I think he said, yeah, yeah, no, someone, I did ask him once and when I was doing a magazine story and for the globe magazine and a Sunday mag and I'm sure, I think his answer was,

I'm sure I saw it. I've seen, I'm sure I've seen some of them. That was it. No, my, it was a personal relationship. It was not built on, on him reading what I wrote in his case. I promise you that. But he liked your basketball takes. That's why he respected me. He likes my basketball takes. Well, you know what else? So Bob, you showed up, you were there, you were there all the time. No, that matters to Larry. You were there early. You were there late. You never took a day off from practice. Those are the kinds of that that matter to larry i remember once he he was he really liked mike fine from the patriot legend a lot you know he was a great guy who covered the team for many years and then mike we were on the

road in sacramento i think it was mike had vertigo he got really really sick in the hotel and he couldn't come to the game because he was like throwing up he couldn't even stand up and i remember talking to bird after us he goes yeah we was. Sacramento, he's too big for Sacramento. I go, no, Larry had vertigo. He was really sick in the hotel. And he goes, still should have been, you know, the dude couldn't stand up. He was throwing up, still should have been there. You know? So that's where it comes from. Do you think it's possible to have a feel for these guys in the same way in 2020 with the limited access, but also they have all these people in their life now. They're presenting this version of themselves.

They're the public figure version versus the actual human being. And you're just not going to get to know that person. It's not possible. I disagree with you. I disagree with you. All right, let's litigate this. Why do you think it's not possible, Bob?

Just what? You don't have the, they do not have the access. Let's litigate this. Why do you think it's not possible, Bob? What? You don't have the, they do not have the access. They don't have, you don't have a sufficient opportunity for them to recognize you as a human being. You don't have it. I mean, I don't think so. Jackie, if I'm wrong, tell me.

But I don't see how it's possible. We spent, we had so much direct contact. I know. So now what you do, including the, I mean, I could, I know, I understand contact. I know. So now what you do. I mean, I could build. I understand that. I could go on for two hours with stories that are not possible today because the circumstances don't even exist.

There's no stories about hanging around the guys at the gate at the airport during a delay. There's no stories like that. I know. There's no stories about like I would go in after every game for a period of time and say, OK, where are we going? Where are you going? Where are we going after the game on the road? Because every place there was a place after in every city and I would meet them and we close up the joint. Nobody close up the joints with players anymore. They don't even go to the joints. They go back for the video games, whatever the hell they do. But see, see, here's what but here's the thing bob so your generation was that my generation was like you don't go out with players after the game that's a conflict of

interest so there's an evolution okay there's an evolution the evolution now is i'm not a big fan of texting i'd rather talk to someone in person and sit with them today's young writers the ones that are really good that are getting stuff from these players they're texting with each other they're talking with each other. They're talking about the video games that you're referencing. They go early. They stay late. But it's in a different way.

They go to the player's shoe event. If the guy has a charity. Or the charity function, yeah. Yeah, that's how they make those connections. And they do it in a way where those two players, because they're of the same generation, and sometimes they have like interests, and that's how they do it. It's still possible. It's just a lot harder. Now, for someone like me, I mean, I'm 60 years old, right?

And I'm a woman on top of it. I used to be old enough to be like their sister or their girlfriend. Then I was old enough to be their mother. Now I'm old enough to be their grandmother, okay? So it's a challenge for me. I'm not going to talk to them about any video games. I don't play any video games. So I always tell everybody, don't try to be something you're not or try to have an interest

in something. There's still plenty of things in the world I can talk to these guys about. And maybe they talk to me initially out of respect. And then it's up to me to just carry a conversation and find something in common with them. That makes them think, I mean, I love basketball. I can talk about basketball all day just because I'm a 60. It doesn't mean I can't talk about basketball.

In fact, I know a little bit about things that they don't even remember because they weren't born yet. So there's always a way I just, you know, I, if I didn't think there was a way I wouldn't still be doing. I think,

I think what's changed now is, especially in the 70s, you had these real relationships with people you were covering where you could even have falling outs during the season. You didn't talk to Heinsohn for, what, a year? No. It hit its skids in 76 and really peaked in the finals because I stayed at West Falls House. I didn't stay with an hotel in Phoenix.

But yeah, it was. It had deteriorated. It was heading for trouble that year, and it did. But then we patched it up, and for 42 years, until the day Tommy died, we were friendly. No problem. But yeah, there were so many. Okay, I listen to what Jackie said. It makes sense to me.

But I just think that the nature of the relationships are still different. I just think that. Well, so I guess I should say, Bob, no one's going to be staying at James Harden's house the night before a game. You know? Right. You know what I'm saying? So there is a difference.

That'd be a long night at James Harden's house, too. I'm hoping that the guys today my you know the the guys today or have the opportunity to have the kind of conversations with these guys through these relationships that i could have i used to have a paul silas one of my people i most admire and and and have a check too and but and yeah and i i feel the same way about bird parish mikhail dj dj was to me such a gem let me ask you this, Jackie. How about outside? But for a local guy, not yourself now, but a local guy, did they get to develop relationships with the rest of the league the way we did?

Well, that's especially in this climate, very difficult. But yeah, I think the good ones do. And the good ones that do that don't stay local very long. Then they become national. That's what happens. The good ones, they know how to do that. You know, a lot of people in the league, you know, in circumstances, a lot of it was bars, you know what I mean? Yeah. You come into Pistons when Butch was the coach, you knew where he was going to be after the game. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and Ginopolis, Ginopolis, Ginopolis, that's the place. See, I knew where he was going to be after the game. Yeah, yeah. Well, and Ginopolis. Ginopolis.

Ginopolis. That's the place. See, I knew we'd get to it. The place of the Pistons. We used to go to Ginopolis. And what I would do, because, again, I was always like, well, I'm a woman. I shouldn't be going to bars with these guys. But, like, you mentioned Cleveland. Well, in Richfield, there was the hotel in the middle of nowhere.

There was nowhere else to go. I mean, where else was I going to go? We all went in at exit 11. Yeah. And then major Gouldsby's you used to take me to major Gouldsby's in Milwaukee. Yeah. So, and one night I was there with you and Bird and Walton came in and I was just like, well, I'm with Bob. I guess it's okay. You know, but I was just always self-conscious about, I just didn't want anyone to ever think that how I got my business done. Of course.

No, I had to be really careful. Highly different for a woman. I totally recognize that. I can't even be. So I never would have been there alone, but if I was with the rest of you guys, that was cool.

Detroit. I was at the Lindell AC. That's where you would go in Detroit when they were playing, you know, in downtown at Cobo Hall. Yeah. Which would be there. I mean, oh, God. We could go on and on.

What was the most depressing NBA city of all time for you, Bob? It was the deterioration of Detroit. Detroit. Here's the two things I'll tell you about my travels, which began in 1970. The city that deteriorated the most was Detroit. Downtown Detroit just deteriorated. It was scary. The department stores went down.

Everything was over. The city that improved the most was Indianapolis. Indianapolis is where every Final Four should be permanently, is Indianapolis. But Detroit got to be really frightening. So, you know, Cleveland is upgraded tremendously. You can go to Cleveland, as I have many times for the Finals, as we all have. You can have a good meal at some really fine restaurants every single night. Cleveland's really come on. All right.

Well, can we do this again at some point later in the season? Did you have fun, Bob? I had a lot of fun. It was great. Bob, what's with that office,

man? You look like, like how big is your office? It looks like Obama's background. Yeah. What the heck? It's a, it's a nice room.

In fact, it was one of the selling points for me when we bought this house. It's huge. 42 years ago was this office. It's, it was one of the selling points for me when we bought this house. It's huge. 42 years ago was this office. It's paneled and knotty pine. It's really got to be compared to it. You know, I cherish it. It's a great office.

All right. Bob, it was a pleasure. Jackie, great to see you as always. Happy holidays. Thanks for doing this. Hope we can do it again. Okay. I loved it.

Thank you. All right. That's it for the BS podcast. We do have one more coming. I'm going to do probably a less than an hour football podcast on Thursday

getting ready. Just there's so many variables, so many things going on with the Sunday games. I can't resist. I just can't. So we're going to put that up

at some point on Thursday night right as you're celebrating the new year and celebrating the fact that the old year is over. So stay tuned for that. You can listen to it on Friday. Stay safe out there. Enjoy the last couple of days of a truly shitty year. Thanks for spreading the word. I appreciate it. I'll see you in 2021. Yeah. On the wayside I'm a person I never was And I don't have to ever forget