The Bill Simmons Podcast - Why Brunson Is Top 50 All Time, a Finals Mega-Mailbag, and NBA Fake Trade Season With Joe House

Episode Date: June 15, 2026

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Joe House talk about their favorite early-offseason NBA story lines, including draft changes and trade moves. Then, they discuss Jalen Brunson’s greatness in the NBA Finals before comparing him to some other all-time greats. Finally, Bill and Joe answer some mailbag questions from the listeners. (0:00) Intro (3:15) Favorite offseason NBA story lines (25:50) Is Jalen Brunson a top-50 all-time player? (54:21) Mailbag Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Joe House Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo Brought to you by PayPal. Learn more at paypal.comGet 30% off snacks and groceries on Uber Eats. https://www.ubereats.com/feeds/wfootball_2026_usThe Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Bill Simmons podcast is brought you by PayPal. We're also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network where on the rewatchables, it is from Hell Month. We have done single-way female. We just put up the hand that rocks the cradle. And then we have domestic disturbance and the good son coming later this month. Domestic disturbance, John Chabult of Vince Vaughn. That's going to be Monday's movie.

That is one of the funnier, unintentional comedy movies of the 2000s. Netflix has all these. movies if you miss them, including Pacific Heights, which they just added in mid-June, which we are definitely doing over the next few episodes. Love that movie. So check all that out. Don't forget about the beautiful pod with Adam Friedland. That's on his Adam Friedland feed. A little special World Cup analysis and all kinds of stuff. Chris Ryan, the original CR, has been joining him as well. And then we had a bunch of ringer basketball podcasts. If you didn't get nearly enough about the Knicks winning. We're all over the place with the ringer MBA show,

the mismatch, Max and Rich on game over, ringer gambling show. It just keeps going and going. So we have the draft coming up. I'm going to try to hit, I think I might do three podcasts this week. We might be going Monday, Wednesday, Friday this week. And at least one of those will have a bunch of draft stuff. But today I want to have Joe House on. This has been the guy I've argued about with about historical basketball stuff the most over the past almost 40 years of my life. But we got to talk about Jaylen Brunson, big picture. I have great mailbag questions. I'm trying to figure out what the hell happened over these last two and a half months and how the NBA shifted and houses can be by mailbag slash pyramid sounding board because we got to figure out where

Jaylen Brunson goes in the pyramid. So I'm excited. It's all next. Can't wait. We're going to bring in Pearl Jam right after we take this break. Pearl Jam. This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by PayPal. You know a clutch move when you see one, a no look pass, a buzzer beater, big steel. Well, imagine if your wallet could pull off moves like that. That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony, all birds and Viator,

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see PayPal.com slash rewards terms credit card points subject to issuers terms and conditions it is Monday morning 9 o'clock Pacific time my longtime buddy Joe House is here we're going to do a mailbag we're going to talk a lot of historical NBA pyramid stuff which is the real reason you're here

we're going to talk U.S. Open near the end because you have a lot of thoughts and picks. We are coming off an awesome sports weekend. The Knicks and probably win the NBA title in five games and spurn a bunch of narrative. Spurn? Spur? Spur? Spur? Spur?

Spur. A bunch of a bunch of big narratives. That happened. There's been a lot of draft buzz. There's been a bunch of Yonah stuff now. It feels like this Yonis thing is in full gear. we had Darren Peterson basically saying he would only work out

with your Washington Wizards and that's it. We're going to talk about that. We had the Stanley Cup finals. Carolina won El Chippo. El Chippo carrying the cup. We had this UFC White House event that everybody was pretty bummed out about and yet it had two of the most

kind of shocking fights in a row that I can ever remember in UFC where we had Pereira and Tuporia both lost. Two of the best three fighters in the world. Pereira got his ass kicked. And then Tuporia looked like he was in a car accident by the end of the fight. It was, that was great.

And then we had a bunch of World Cup. Are you betting World Cup? Are we in danger zone here post-MBA finals where you're just sprinkling stuff everywhere? I mean, obviously, yes. The biggest lesson with the World Cup is any team that starts with the T, not betting them. We're really relying on Tony Tokens. morning of this World Cup, we wake up. We hit up our guy to bundo. Tony Tokens, what are we doing today with the World Cup? So far, the biggest losers have been Turkey and Tunisia.

Yeah. That's hit my bank account in the wrong direction. So I'm not betting any more countries that begin with the letter T. The T stands for taking it in the in the, take my money. Slamer. Take my money. We were talking about these top four NBA draft odds, too. which has been fun, like in the prediction market, and Fandall has some stuff too, but it's all over the place. It keeps moving around, and then Peterson happened today

where he basically said, I only want to work out for Washington, but we're both convinced that Washington's going to take AJ to Bancet with the first pick. And this, this to me is a situation now worth watching because if Utah takes Boozer second,

I could honestly see Peterson being like, I'm not playing for Memphis. You guys are going to have to figure this out. It's not happening. Wow. Why? We haven't seen that in a long time. We have not.

I mean, Steve Francis is famous in modern history. That was that, 1999 or 2000? Somewhere in there, yeah. And then maybe he tried to go to the Bulls. I don't know, but I'm prepared for just about anything there. Then you have A-Cuff, who seems like the most popular pick, but the Quippers have the fifth pick right after the top four, and they don't need a point guard, but everybody's in love with A-Cuff.

So that pick feels like it's for sale. there was a trade rumor going around the internets today about if there was going to be a third team for this Yannis Boston trade, which I've been talking about on this podcast for a week. And I think would have to be a third team if Jalen's in it because what's Milwaukee and do with Jalen, could the clips, I'd heard this too during the weekend. Could the clips with the fifth pick move in there and be the third team? And then the second piece of this would they then send? Kauai to Miami as a consolation prize.

And you're basically replacing Kauai with Jalen, used the fifth pick. The real story here is I'm not sure the Kippers have anyone they love with the fifth pick. So we have basically a little over a week here with a bunch of crazy storylines in play. What's your team doing? What's Utah doing at two?

Where is Peterson actually going and does he want to go there? What happens from fifth pick on? My favorite storyline, can the Warriors get somebody good at 11? because it's basically a nine-wear draft with Maren A-Men as like the wild cards that could go higher and push people down. Is OKC going to try to trade a center? This is about as fun as we've had for the eight days. So what's your favorite storyline? AJ DeBonsa to the Washington Wizards, of course.

The number one overall pick is the only thing that I care about. It will be fascinating to see what happens behind. I do really put some faith in the idea of Boozer to Utah. It just makes too much sense. And when some smart folks on the Internet have started doing some, here's how the chemistry would work. And for sure,

the relationship between the Boozer family and the organization, that's all, we're all familiar with that narrative aspect of it. But the fit, who Hardy is, like the first time, this is the first time

we're going to see Will Hardy, you know, being allowed to coach for wins. Yeah. To wins, right? I think Booster is a great fit there. So that creates this jump ball situation. And the thread this morning was moving, our little thread, our draft expertise.

Yeah. I love the notion of Peterson to Chicago. It makes a ton of sense. Me too. And for sure, Memphis, I think Wilson fits what Memphis wants. He kind of immediately fills the triple J role, doesn't he? Like, there's a whole bunch of reasons why that makes sense. But we don't have great precedent for teams swing.

dropping draft position without there being some kind of compensation. But the fit for both Chicago and Memphis, you know, those respective players make sense if they swap positions. So couldn't they do something where it's like, I wondered, what if Chicago offers Memphis a year's worth of Giordano's deep dish? What are like, you know, something because it's like, I think it's like it would have to be three years or maybe they open up a Giordano satellite deep dish place. downtown Memphis.

Fine. I have an easier trade for you. What if they just give them the 15th pick? Four and 15 for three. Fine. We'll solve your Darren Peterson issue and Memphis can get

four and 15 and just take Caleb Wilson who might end up being a better part anyway. I like that for both sides. So do I. The most fun NBA scenario is you guys take AJ. Utah takes Boozer. Peterson ends up in Chicago.

Memphis gets 4 and 15 takes Caleb Wilson. And then Utah calls San Antonio. And they say, heard you have a Darren Fox problem. We have a matching salary in Lori Marketing, but you're going to have to wet our beak. Hmm. How about Utah's in Carter, Carter Bryant? Wow.

Maybe one of your future protected picks. And let's call it a day. Bill Simmons. The files ended and you were immediately in the trade machine. What time Saturday night were you in the trade machine? Be honest. It was after the game finished at what time at West Coast? Oh, you and Zach had to do the pod.

No, we finished the pod and then Fox Trade started pouring out of me. Like the pus from open source. I'm ready to roll. I'm glad you with that direction. I thought it was other bodily fluids, but it all makes sense. Would Lori Marketing have solved some of the San Antonio's problems in that 2026 finals? Here's the problem that we're going to have for a little while. It is overreaction of the moment, all of the recency bias.

I think quite a bit of the fox in the crosshairs kind of concept is really emblematic of who this Spurs team is and the fact that they arrived a year early. They just weren't ready. They weren't ready from top to bottom. They weren't ready conceptually. They weren't ready schematically. They weren't ready in terms of the coaching. They weren't ready in terms of the personnel. They happened to run into the one team in the entire NBA where they're youthful, the speed,

Wemby's Force, their defensive intensity. There was only one team in the NBA that could match them because New York, to their credit, they showed up healthy. This was the single biggest underrated storyline because they swept the two previous, teams that they faced in the East, they had so much time to get the very best version of themselves ready for these playoffs. Remember, Fox was missing games in these playoffs. It's not fair to me to be, you know, pinpointing Fox and now for sure, we can look at the moments where he was not up to the task and you say, he's supposed to be on this team, he's supposed to be

the calming influence. He's supposed to be the guy that makes the intelligent, high IQ basketball play at the end of these games and every one of these games that are so close. Yeah. It's crunch time. And he's a previous crunch time winner. He's a guy who's with a demonstrated track record of success. But I think when we sort of start taking some steps back, there is yet still a version of this Spurs team where we say we're a little more gracious about it. Like, can we be generous and say that Mitch Johnson and Deerrin Fox will get on the same page with the benefit of what they learned from that.

series and all of the assets that the spurs possess coming into the next season. There's a version of the Spurs team. Like, what do you think they're over under will open up at in terms of regular season wins? Well, they're the favorites. Yeah, they'll be in the 60s. You know, I didn't really realize this until Sunday as I was going through all the clips and stuff and watching the post game interviews.

It does feel like the fundamental issue with the spurs. And by the way, all the stuff you said about the Spurs about, hey, if they just lot. I said that on Saturday. If they just lost game seven and OKC, we don't have any of this stuff and we're fine with the spurs and it's a successful season. I do want to point out you were very mean about the New England Patriots who made the Super Bowl and it was the same scenario. And I don't remember you making that defense for my Patriots. I don't understand. It's a radically different sport. And I was on the correct side of a young team that got to the Super Bowl and maybe it would have been better off losing the AFC title game,

which I said, but you didn't want to hear it. You just, you bought it in a cousin Salas, Drake made jokes. All I did was win money. I like betting against the Patriots. I like winning money. But watching all the stuff the next day and then thinking about the series more, looking at the minutes, I do think the fundamental issue with this spurs, they had two issues.

One is Wembe is a 30 minute a game guy who cannot play 40. I think we've learned that in the playoffs. He's going to have to figure that out. That's who he is right now. That's who he is right now. He's going to have to figure that out over the next five years. Right, right. How can I handle being on the court more than 29 to 30 minutes a game?

That's one issue. The other is the Harper issue. And you saw it in game five. Who got the car keys near the end of game five? It was Harper. It was the first time you saw them do that all the series where he got the in, he brought it up. They were running step through him.

And I just think they were afraid to do that the whole series. Fox played more minutes than him. Fox played 36 minutes. 12 points a game. All his stats were terrible. And then had a couple big brain farts. I think he was afraid to shoot by the end of the series. Like he couldn't have threes.

Harper wasn't much better on threes, but at least wasn't afraid to take them. And I think fundamentally, that was almost a bigger issue than the Wembe thing, is that they had this issue. But did you hear of Vassel said about it? He talked about Harper. He was like, this is a tough year for him.

He had to go down the G League at one point. That's true. He did. He was not happy about his minutes. It was the first time he was kind of like, yeah, Harper wanted to play more and was ready to be this guy. Harper's attitude during the finals was,

I'm here, I'm ready for all of this. And Mitch Johnson just was afraid to kind of tell Fox to go sit in the passenger seat, and that was a big issue for them. Sure. And you know what? Everything you just said, that's fine. That's great.

All of that is part of the maturation, process, the growing up process. Like, the minutes thing, you know, Zach Lowe and Sean Fennessey, an extraordinary podcast Saturday night that I enjoyed listening to very much. It's up right now on the Ringer podcast network. You know, made the point about the capacity of the Knicks to play all 48 minutes and that that was an advantage that they possessed over the Spurs. Well, the Spurs losing steam.

in the second half, and especially in the fourth quarter, running out of energy, that's a skill. That's not about like the conditioning of the spurs versus the conditioning of the NICs. It's a skill. You have to learn it. You have to learn through these kinds of playoff reps how to allocate that energy, where to save energy. And I thought, you know, we saw an experiment happening in real time in quite a bit of the strategizing that the spurs undertook that Mitch Johnson undertook. We saw it in game five. He took Wembe out with five minutes left in the basketball game, for Christ's sakes.

How is that pot? What are we doing? Like, we know what the Cornette minutes produced. But look, this was, to me, a giant success for the Spurs. Like, you know, like, they have nothing to really resent or regret other than, like, we're just quite not ready. And there's really only one team in the NBA that could, you know, really take advantage of. it. I never think it's a giant success if you could actually win the title and you didn't.

But the Patriots had no chance to win the Super Bowl against the Seahawks, right? And that put me in that mode of, ah, man, I just wish we'd lost in Denver. San Antonio, they led for, I think, what was it? 72% of the series. They led by double digits in all five games. So what? They led in the last two minutes of every game. Hang a banner with all those stats on it. Doesn't matter. I have good mailbag questions about this, but one of them I'm going to read now. This is from Timothy. My closest friend was supremely confident in every juncture of the NBA finals about the spurs losing. He said in the first quarter of game five, the spurs are like drunk teenagers who eventually black out, a lot of early stamina.

It's totally true. Great point. Hey, you want to do Yagerbuster shots? Yeah. Let's go. And then by 11 o'clock, people are throwing up in the bushes. That was the spurs. Wait, wait, that wasn't Timothy Shalame. No, it was not Timothy Shabba. Okay, just check it. Now, it was the spelling. He ended the spelling with a Y. Okay, good. So I think you're right in the sense of, hey, let's not overreact. But I do think this Harper thing, I think he has to start next year.

And I think he needs to drive the car. And if I'm looking at getting out of this Fox thing, if I can. Because the other trade, and people were sending a bunch of different trades. And you could do like, oh, we'll get Randall for a year and different Chenzo, like there's all kinds of whatever's. Porter from the Nets as an expiring for Fox was one that got sent to me a few times. And that one made me go, huh, because you have the Nets who, you know, I don't think they want to be rebuilding for the rest of the 2020s. They just had the entire city got officially taken away from them.

They're irrelevant. and, you know, could you do that trade and then trade this six pick for a star and just try to be like, we're here, we have good players now. My only pushback on that is that the Porter expiring should be more valuable than the next five years of Fox at 55 to $60. Or you say you're buying low on Fox, a guy who two years ago is averaging 25 points a game. And are you buying low on? Maybe he was just on the wrong team. I don't know.

that he's in his late 20s. You could say he was hurt during the playoffs, lost his confidence, we're buying low. But I thought that was interesting. The idea of him being on the wrong team would suggest that he's not a winning player. It would say he's on,

he should be on exactly the right team. It should be, the Spurs should be the right team. They have this opportunity this summer to like lessons learned and take that right into the next season. You and I have been following basketball our whole life. It's true. This Fox Harper thing is not going to end well.

I'm sorry. It just won't. I'd be shocked if it's like, hey, we figured it out. Three guard rotation like Detroit in the late 80s. Look at all these good numbers when Fox and Harper played together. I just, I don't see it. I think Harper is that special. What we saw from him in the playoffs was about as high of a level from a 20-year-old guard

as we've seen. With magic being a 10 out of 10 and Kobe, you know, in the 2000, and was Kobe? I forget how old he was in the 2000s. I think it was somewhere around 20. But if that's the top of the pyramid, some of the stuff Harper was doing wasn't there,

but it was at least sniffing in the vicinity of it. And I thought in game five, I thought that had a chance to be his masterpiece. It was like, we've single only flipped the series. He went all the way to the hole the layup in the last two minutes that he missed.

I mean, he was there. He did the thing. He got all the way there. I love how I played. You know, me too. He wasn't afraid. at all. I love the defense he was playing on Brunson. Brunson was making big shots

on him. So yeah, we I'm interested to see what happens with Fox and then you have the Yannis piece, which people have been reporting now for two days. The reason this stuff gets out, if it's just Boston and Milwaukee

and they're talking about stuff, very unlikely stuff gets out. But if, and for the aggregators, I am saying if, if Jay Brown was the piece being dangled for Janice and Milwaukee is like, well, we don't need Jaylen Brown. What could we get for them? That's how stuff gets out. That's where you get in the trouble. That's when you start calling these different teams, including the Quippers.

I do wonder though if there's a, the Clippers thing feels a little real to me because I don't know who they know who, I don't think they have any idea who they should take it five. I think that's a real issue because they just invested in Garland. and the next three guys at five are all point cards. So you can't take a point guard there. You have to do something at five. I like the idea of the clippers taking a big swing. They want to stay in the mix.

For sure, Balmer and the front office there, they've shown, you know, the willingness to go ahead, like look at what they did preceding this trade deadline. Those are big swings. James Harden and Zubach. That's a front office that's like, we know we got to do something. There's a reset.

So Kauai is an element of the next step of the reset. Certainly makes sense to me. But they are retooling, not rebuilding. And how can they play a role? It feels like Milwaukee wants a full rebuild, right? They want to come up with some combination of draft picks and or very young players, you know, players brand new to the league. And is the clippers the right conduit to that?

I mean, it feels like there needs to be a fourth team almost. Well, let me ask you, do you think if you're the quippers and you have Kauai and you have Garland and you have a little more of a veteran team, you're probably on a little bit of a shelf wife with Kauai, not just contractually, but just with him as an impact guy is 34. If you were able to turn that fifth pick into Jalen or somebody like Jalen, is the fifth pick worth more or less than that? Because I think you could make a case, Jalen. being one of the top 12 players in the league,

second team ball NBA last year coming off a career year, is probably worth more than the fifth pick by himself. Well, if I'm the quipers, I can get it's an impossible contract. That's the thing that, how could the clippers possibly afford? It's three years like 60 million a year, basically.

But the quippers are under the cap now. Garland's at like 36, 37. Kauai is close to a max, but they have a bunch of other stuff after that. They have to pick him out. Or just let him go. Or he's in the trade. Oh, interesting.

I still like Mathrin. And if you're the bucks, and you, like, could I sell that to my fans that I traded Janus, but I got the fifth pick back and I said the 10th pick,

and now I have five and 10 in an awesome draft. Is that enough? Well, you and I both love A-Cuff, probably the most. Huh, boy. A-Cup, by the way, there's a lot of buzz

on him just killing these workouts and teams being like, holy shit. We need one or two more assets for Milwaukee. I agree. I feel like. Well, we'll see what happens. I'm really excited to see how all this plays out. This is great.

What a Monday after the finals. Let's go. We're going to take a break. We're going to come back, and we're going to talk about Jalen Brunson in the pyramid right after this. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. This summer, soccer is here.

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All right. So I wrote my basketball book in 2009, spent three years on it. Joe House was one of my conciliaries and one of the gimmicks, which was an idea initially from my buddy Gus's dad, Wally Ramsey. Still kicking it in his mid-90s. Shout out to Wally,

who always thought the Hall of Fame should be a pyramid. I wrote a column about this or another column about this, eventually built the basketball around it. Five levels, and as the levels go higher and higher, we then get the true flavor

of who mattered the most with the top level being the Pantheon. The biggest thing, as we talked about all this stuff, trying to figure out why guys matter, why people should have been underrated, overrated, just trying to measure impact.

Could you win a title with this guy? We always gravitated to the actual titles. Did this guy carry a team to a title? Did this guy do everything it took? Would you rather have 15 years of somebody who was really, really good and made a bunch of all-MBA teams and brought it to the precipice,

but you couldn't win a title if he was your best guy? Or would you rather have a shorter window with somebody who, his peak, you could win the title with them. And we always gravitated to that as we talked about it. And that's why somebody like Bill Walton, who really had, you know, the 77 Blazers run, they win the title. He's the MVP of the next year, even though he gets here near the end. He's hurt for the rest of his career. And then is the sixth man on the 86 Celtics. So it has basically three moments. And I still had him in the top 35 in my book. I can't remember where he landed exactly.

But it was like, I know for that one year, Bill Walton, I can win a title with him. So I have Jaylen Brunson, who's never been a first team all NBA guy, who had no MVP votes this year at all. And yet he just dragged the team to the NBA title house. He did something that a bunch of great guards were never able to do. He did something that James Hardin, as a starter on his own team, never even made the finals and fell short over and over again. Steve Nash, who was an unbelievable player, two-time MVP, through no fault of his own, could never quite get the team there.

Chris Paul finally did it in the 2021 finals late in his career, but they lost. Jason Kidd, two straight finals, but he lost, and then finally gets one later as a role player starter on Dallas. What Brunson did was up there with Dwayne Wade in 2006. It was up there with Walton in 77. you can go on through, but we're just dragging a team to the finals.

And he is somebody that I never in a million years would have thought would make the pyramid that I sent you a piece of as I keep always work on the rankings. I'm going to start here. I think he has to be one of the top 50 parts of all time, though. And I don't even think it's debatable.

So your initial thoughts on that. Yeah, so I want to gently push back. You said twice that he dragged, the team to the, now I'm now that, that, we have to recognize the greatness of Carl Anthony Towns, the contribution of OGM. One of the best secret teams we've had in a long time. I conceding all that, but you know what really helped? Anytime they were down in the end of games, down nine, down 10, down 14, Jalen Brunson

would just figure out how to get offense for them. And not just figure out, but by design. Like, this is part of the brilliance of the front office of Leon Rose and World Wide West in assembling a team and ultimately arriving on a Jalen Brunton-centric end-of-game on a phenomenon. And it's truly a phenomenon. I couldn't get in touch with the ring of research staff to go back to the point where we measure, okay, all the guys are together.

How many times did this group in this combination come back from double-digit deficits in a second half in win games in the regular season? and in the playoffs. But we do know that in these playoffs, they went six and two the greatest accomplishment in a playoff run in terms of being down double digits and coming back and winning games

in the play-by-play era. One of the great live bet teams in the history of any sport. Exactly right. He was the leading scorer on a team that had the best point differential in playoff history. The leading scorer was Jalen Brunson

and the Knicks are, are on top of that, that mountain. Well, they, go ahead. No, no, it's good. I was going to say a big part of my book, which was basically the premise of it, was Isaiah saying the secret of basketball is it's not about basketball. It's about all the other stuff.

It's about selflessness. It's about putting ego aside. It's about how you connect with your teammates, the chemistry you have, your ability to galvanize everybody around you. Brunson had all of this. Yes. In one of the best possible,

ways as a guard. I truly don't think he had ego and what was, I think he just wanted to win and he wanted to prove everyone wrong and he didn't care how they did it. But over and over again, he was their best option because he was the guy over and over again who could create the best offense for them. And he got better when it mattered. He never got tired. He played 39 minutes a game in the finals. As a small guy, the stuff that he did was inconceivable. And what he did in game five, I'm just going to say it. Like the more I look at it and stare at it, and stare at, I think, is one of the great finals games. Like, you know, Jordan, game 6, 98 is the greatest game I've ever seen anyone play

when you consider Pippins hurt. Rodman's a mess. Like, you basically, he had to control the pace in every moment of that game and then what he did in the last minute, you know, basket steel basket to end it. But the Brunson thing was pretty close. Like, Towns being in foul trouble, they're covering OG on the corner threes. and there were multiple moments where the game was going to get away from them, and he just wouldn't let it happen.

And especially in the second half, he was just like, all right, I'm just going to keep scoring and let us hang around, and the spurs are going to fold. So I value that more than anything. And maybe I overrated it with the pyramid, but you seem to agree with me. Of course. I mean, this is the funny thing.

The league invented an award, the clutch player of the year for as a regular season award. It's only been around for four years. He won it. I mean, he's one of the four guys that won it. not the Aaron Fox did win it also. So I don't know. Yeah, but it's regular season, you know.

It is regular season. But this is one of the themes of when we've gotten together, you know, we've talked about, this is the DNA of this particular Knicks team, the particular run that they are on. They just never concede anything in any kind of deficit, second half. It doesn't matter. And that's a regular season and postseason trait for this team. And the tip of the spear is Brunson. We really haven't seen a guy that fits his, to your point, his stature.

But also, I mean, he's in that class of who do you trust to go get a bucket right now or to make the best basketball play right now. His 30-foot shot over Wemby at the end of game four was the right basketball play. Him getting that shot up immediately created an advantage for the Knicks that they, he recognized it as the double team came over, as Fox came over to double. that created an advantage. Like even a miss shot is the right basketball play. And that's the thing that we're looking for a historic, how do we put him in a place in the history of the league amongst the all-time greats?

And where you have him feels right to me. He's probably the toughest guy in the league. Is that fair? Sure. So a tougher guy in the league right now? I mean, he did withstand some injury scare at the very beginning of the series. And we thought, you know, maybe

when being getting in his landing space in game five, it's just like, I think that guy could have had, you know, a high ankle sprain, whatever, and he just would have been like, I'll deal with it later. He's the mentally toughest guy in the league, which, you know,

I think Curry's up there. There's been some great players over the years, but for right now, the mantle of, I just trust in the most. It doesn't matter where he's playing on top of taking the responsibility of 53 years, which is like, you know, when this happened for the Red Sox, it was really Ortiz, right?

And it was a bunch of guys, and there were a million heroes in that, from Derek Lowe to even Curtis Lascannick coming in and getting three outs at the perfect time. But it was ultimately Ortiz, and the entire Red Sox fan base going, this makes no sense. We lose all the time.

We haven't won in 86 years. Something bad's going to happen. The other shoe is going to. going to drop, we're going to get kicked in the teeth, and just kind of looking over at Ortiz and being like, but he doesn't seem scared. And we have this guy. And the Yankee fans seem scared of him. And that's what Brunson did for this next team. Like as great as OG was, and we'll talk about him in the mailbag, towns, bridges, like, they're bench guys. Everybody chipped in, which was a great thing about this team. But ultimately, to flip history,

you have to have a guy who's just completely different. And so when I think of him historically, even though he's never been in a top five all NBA guy, I think he has to be in the top 50 now. And what gets interesting is when you start comparing him. So I got an email from Harry, who said, did he just, did Jalen just set the record for biggest historical leapfrog in NBA history? What was the biggest jump in one postseason?

But really, you have to say by an older player, Brunson's been in the league eight years. So I think one guy I was thinking was Kauai, in 2019. Of course, of course, you and I immediately. That's the first guy that comes to my mouth is Kauai in 29. Amazing. Because I wouldn't have, I wouldn't had, I don't think Kauai in the pyramid.

Right. He would have been in the honorable mention with a chance. Sure. But then that 2019 playoffs ended up. It's like, well, he's now in the top 40. I got to figure out the rankings now because this is what he just did was nuts. Yeah. Finals MVP for two different teams.

He dragged Toronto. Oh, yeah. Well, Dirk's the best example for a late, late career guy. Because Dirk was in the 1997 draft. He won that finals in 2011. So he's year 14. I had him 39th in my book, which was, which came out before the 2011 title, right?

So then he wins the title. It's like, well, now you're moving up, buddy. Here, I have a little sweet right underneath the penthouse for you. So he's, you know, I think I have him in the 21st. 22 range now. And then you have the younger guys like SGA that they win the title, they jump up, but that's a little more common. The Brunson thing, I wouldn't, I wouldn't even had him on normal mention until these playoffs. Like, I understand. Yeah, he just, I mean, he didn't have the credentials yet. Right. And, and he's only halfway through his career. I mean,

he's only 29. He should play another seven or eight years. There's a chance to bump it. Yeah. So just enhancing the overall career resume. So, if you. go in the top 50 where just so people know like there's you know Clyde Drexler have in the mid-50s Gary Payton these are guys that were the best player in finals teams who had a bunch of all-MBAs and really good careers but we just had a lot of players since I did the book we've had you know almost two decades worth of more seasons and more great players in level three so goes level one level to level three, which was no doubt about it, Hall of Famers, who ranked among the best for a few years, with every requisite resume, statistic to match, no MVP winner can drop below level three unless

there's a fantastic reason. Unfortunately, that's Derek Rose. But had I ever sent it at 52, who I think you and I ride for maybe a little more than others historically, but it's really just the 2001 playoffs and really no success postseason wise other than that. But you go down and there's this whole bunch of guards that Brunson is in the middle of now, historically. Luca Donchich, George Gervin, James Hardin, Sam Jones, so I'm going to ride forth to the death because he was the best big game guard of the first basically 40 years of the league other than Jerry West. Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, and Walt Frazier.

I have all those guys in the 40s, and you could argue about the order, but they're all there. They all have the all MBAs. Fraser has the 70 and 73 finals. Frazier was top five first top five first team all NBA four times. Nash had the two MVPs. Kid was an MVP runner up, but dragged those two nets teams to the finals, which matter. Then he won a title and was Jason kidd was just awesome. The stats aren't going to be kind to him because of the three point shooting and the field goal percentage, but we were there. Well, he made three. It'll be a three point shooting percentage thing to knock him, but it made three since the top five in the history of the league.

But for years, he was 29% 30%. And he was the best defensive player of all these guys over than Frazier. Sam Jones was 10 championships. He had three, he had I think a couple of NBAs.

Oh, there it is. Three top tens. But was the key guy on those wrestle teams in the 60s because they needed somebody to basically do the Brunson at the end of games. Hardin gets Hardin gets Hardin is MVP

three time runner up MVP six top five three 13 MalmbeAs he was runner up for MVP three times and average 36 a game

when he's his statistical resume is just overwhelming and it's basically the Carl Malone situation I don't know what to do with Hardin

yeah well I mean here's the thing and I spent some time with what do they call basketball reference now is it basketball Stathhead, Stadhead basketball?

Stadhead has one. Yeah, it's part of basketball reference. Yeah. If you side by side, James Hardin and Charles Barkley, you would be surprised. Yeah. I think we've had now 25 or 30 years of Charles in our lives and the cultural force. He's an icon.

He's an NBA icon. I have Barclay much higher than these guys. You do. Yeah, he was in the mid-20s for me when I did the book. Right. It's going to be tough. I think as we try and process the NBA from this era and going forward, what do we do with a player like James Harden and how do you contextualize his inability? He's only been to one finals. He was he was coming off the bench for Oklahoma City. He never made the finals as a starter. He was one in four on conference finals in general. He's 17 and 17 in playoffs.

And, you know, one of the conference finals he made, they benched him against the clippers in game six and came back with the bench guys when the game was over. Like he was about to get bouncing that. But, you know, this is one of those cases where, sadly, we were there. Right. The statistical resume was there. But ultimately, the number one value we have with all this stuff is

how did you perform when it truly mattered? Did you understand the secret? Could you elevate your team around you? And he just could never do it. Really at any point in his career, right? Barclay is a good example because the 93 sons, they come as close as you're going to get to winning the title and they lose to the best part of all time

who's at his absolute fucking apex, right? That's the only reason he didn't win the title. And I don't know how much I can hold that against. him because I don't feel like, I feel like he did everything possible in that finals. And we know what happened. Kevin Johnson stunk in those first two games. Yeah. That's why they lost the finals.

The Bulls thing was kind of ready to be beaten. The question with Hardin, and obviously you and I share the same kind of perspective on him. We've watched it. Like he was, he was there present for us in all of our NBA hoops fandom. Yeah. You know, he's been in our lives for so long. will history be more gracious towards him?

Like it's happening with Carl Mullen right now, basketball-wise, not personality or personalize. Yeah, yeah. Well, right, because the era in which Hardin in the West against the teams that he went up against, not being able to topple Golden State, you know, catching the end of the Spurs run, you know, is it, can we legitimately pin responsibility

on him for his inability to take a team? I think we can in 18 and 19. Okay. Because 18 was sitting there for them and they didn't win. And basically because he didn't do the, have the Jalen Brunson game. 19, Durant's out. Yeah.

And they have six at home against Curry. And Curry has, what, two points in the first half or one point? I can't remember. And Golden State's ready to be taken down and they just couldn't do it. The fundamental question here, because George Gervin's another one, I have him and Hardham right next to each other, very similar careers. And Gervin's big moment was the 1979 Eastern Conference Finals against your beloved Washington Bullets, up 3-1 in the series and can't close them. And if he gets to that finals, and they're probably favored to beat Seattle at that point, and they win the, like, it's a complete whatever. But fundamentally, this comes down to this.

You're a Washington fan. I'm giving you the ability you can have Hardin or Brunson for their entire careers. From what you've just witnessed, which guy would you rather have? And we don't know how it's going to end with Brunson. He's only been in the league eight years. But your whole goal is, I just want to win the title.

Are you taking James Hardin and you're taking Jalen Brunson? I mean, it's a no-brainer. It's easy. Flags fly forever. The only thing that matters is the chip. That's why the pyramid is tilted the way it's tilted. You have to have the rings. And it's not just, you know, Brunson delivering.

It would be really curious how we would regard Iverson. Iverson took a team that really, you know, when you look back at that Sixers team, it's like, wow, look at the surrounding cast here. Built around all his strengths and weaknesses. Right. Right. If they had somehow pulled something out, that, you know, that but this brunson's a different cat a different animal all together he is such an important

element of that cohesive team that the nicks have built and yet when there's six minutes left in the game and the nicks could be down a dozen points you never never never think for a second that they don't have a chance to win as long as that dude has the ball in his hands uh and he's he's more healthy than not. You know what? Got lost in the Brunson celebration over this last two weeks. He was the one that got the ball in game two and Wemby threw it off Castle's back

and got Wemby to foul him. Yes. Like that one of the things with Brunson that I've appreciated. And remember, he missed one of the free throws, but go ahead. Yeah, he did. But one of the things that I appreciate about him is it's like, oh, you got to pick on Brunson,

pick on Brunson. Much like Jason Kidd and some of these other dudes is actually like sometimes an asset defensively. Like he's fucking annoying to play against. He's taking charges all the time. He's getting steals. He's in the right spots. But you look at his four years in the playoffs now,

it's 29 a game. This is four years across the board, like a lot of playoff games, 29 a game, 26 finals. He was 33, 4 and 5, put 39.2 minutes a game. It's just better than anything James Hardin ever did. a higher level than anything James Harden ever did, and I'm sorry. And I just, if I could have

either career for the same reason out or when I did my book, I would rather have Bill Walton just so I could get those peaks versus David Robinson's entire career. I just would. Because at least my only thing I want is the title. And I just know that if I have that guy have a better chance, and that's not rings culture to me. It's more like that, that's why I'm not discounting Barclay because I don't feel like Barclay did everything he could have done and they probably should have won the 93 finals and he went against a fucking comet

that we've never seen in our lives. That's the only reason he'd win. Carl Malone went against that same older version of the comet and really fucked up in both finals and not to mention some of the other stuff that happened and it's hard to separate that from his history.

So I do value that stuff because the only goal is to win the title. I don't care about your career. Like I care about your career in the context of did it produce championships and chances to win championships. So with Brunson, I don't know.

So I have him at 40, which I sent to you. Yeah. My only quibble because it was in the vicinity of the Bill Walton range and I think that's fair to put him near him.

You had him one spot ahead of Frazier. I did. I think they should at least be tied until we get a little more. I'm happy to flip them. This is why I wanted to have you on. So you'd put, so that this opens the different conversation because greatest nick of all time should probably have the higher pyramid ranking, right? Sure. And I'm all years. I'll listen to everybody, all the smart folks that will be doing this greatest nicks of all time. It is appropriate

for that conversation to be had now. You saw Rick Brunson do, the well Patrick Ewing's the greatest Nick when that was you know that was nice that's a you know I understand the gesture he's not that they're making he is not so the thing with Frazier two titles not one played one of the great game sevens ever in

1970s so he matches Brunson there 35 and 19 I think he had six steals like demolished Jerry West and then you know was probably the best defensive guard of the first 35 years of the league not to mention all the other stuff

his career was shorter because everyone's career was shorter back then. Like I'd love to see the guys now. Do you think LeBron would have played 20? How many years is he had to? 23. So, playing 23 years in converse with no Versa climber and flying coach. Guess what? He's not.

So you got to factor that in too. All right, I'm fine with Frazier over Brunson. But Brunson has a chance to pass him with a couple more great seasons. He's sitting right there. He's only halfway through his career. Let's let him get there. So to be clear.

Now, yeah, go ahead. I have them above Nash, kid, Sam Jones, Harden, Gervin, and Luca. What's wrong with that? I'm just for the audience.

Okay. And for Luca, the regular season resume is tremendous. Yes. He did make a finals. He did. He is the second highest

career playoff average of all time, 30.9 points a game. He's six first team OMBAs already. and has a chance to, if he can put it together for one year, move into the top 20-25 branch.

And it will be a combination of him and the right circumstances. I mean, you know, it shouldn't be lost that the Brunson place in the pyramid is a testament to the front office of the Knicks taking the swing that they took. He wouldn't be in this place without the context. And just that people think this is reactionary or whatever, like, this is how I did the book.

Like, I had Dwayne Wade, thinking the top 40, maybe even top 35, just because of what he did in the 2006 finals. Sure. That's it. Like, you get a major bump if you pull that off on the biggest stage and you help drag your team to the title. So there's some centers ahead of, uh, ahead of Frazier and Brunson just because I think the center position was more important for a longer period of time with the league. Willis Reed, David Robinson, Walton, Barry. So I do have, by the pyramid rankings, Willis Reed, as the best Nick ever.

But I don't know if I'm right. I just know from, he was the MVP of the league. Frazier and Brunson were never MVP's of the league. He went against all of these great centers during a time when you basically couldn't win the title or compete for one unless you had an awesome center. He's going against Kareem and Wilt and all these dudes. Like, you kind of had to have that. So I have the Cowans, Reed, Robinson, Bill Walton, all in a row.

And then the two guards I have ahead of all of these guys. And I got to look at John Stockton again because I'm trying to decide if I overrated him a little in my book. But right now I have Stockton 34 and Chris Paul 33 because of how long and ridiculous their careers are. And they were in finals and really guys I thought had some bigger moments than James Harden. But that gets, that's where it gets tough. James Hardin versus Stockton versus Chris Paul with Chris Paul. Really that 21 finals changed Chris Paul's legacy by about 10, 12 spots. And appropriately so.

I do think when you sit down and do the side by side of Hardin and Stockton, it's really close. It's a, like they're, whatever the comparability score is, like they're, they're really close those two. when I did the book, I wrote about, I wrote about Stockton why he couldn't get to level four, why he was in level three. And I think you're mentioned in this because it was like, here's the thing. He probably shouldn't be this high. Where did I have him? I had him.

Jesus. So there is. I had him 25 in the book. And I made all the cases for why maybe he shouldn't be there. But then it was the experience of watching him and how great he was and how he would always like just pick his run the team,

get everyone else involved for three and a half quarters and then pick his spots and was a fucking assassin. It was like, assassin. I just don't feel like the stats can properly reflect that the way he kind of carried the team

and you just kind of always knew he was lurking and you always thought he was going to come through when it mattered, right? Yeah. I wonder if going back are we misremembering how effective he was in the clutch versus Carl Malone? It's possible.

But this is what? The further we get away from this stuff, we always felt like Stockton was the good guy in that team and Carl Malone was the one you could get the 44 minutes out of and you didn't trust the last four. We were probably too hard on Carl Malone. I mean, I created the whole 42 club so he would be discounted. By the way, Wembe missed the 42 club.

Are you surprised? No. Me either. Brunson, Brunson didn't get there, but really hard for guards to get there because they're on the rebounds. All right.

So Jalen Brunson, 41 in the pyramid. Unbelievable. Great. Can you imagine? What were the fandol odds have been on that before the playoffs? They wouldn't have given us odds,

you know, 150,000 to one. All right. I'm going to take one more break and then we're doing a mailback. All right, mailbag. These are actual questions from actual listeners. BS Podcast 33 at gmail.com

if you want to send one in. Thanks to everybody who sent stuff in. Oh, it's a really fun stuff to go through. Matt from New York wants to know. Jalen Brunson now has the number one Jalen spot on lock. There are four Jailens on all NBA teams. I'm requesting you to stop calling Jalen Brown, just Jalen during podcasts because it's too confusing.

So he's basically making the argument. We have all these Jailens. The only Jailen now should be Jalen Brunson. And then everybody else, we should say their last names. But J. J.L. Wames is J-dub.

Jalen Brown becomes J-B. Yeah. J-Wan Johnson now becomes J-Wan-J-Winson or double-J. J-Lorne is just J-Land-Durn and J-Lan Green's J-LIN. I'm fine with this. I think Jalen has assumed control of the name Jailen, along with everybody Jailen Rose. Well, the original J-Lan. The original J-Lan.

I mean, there's always, there's only one OG. That's the original Jail and J-Lan Rose. Sure, fine. I can subscribe with this. I feel like Jalen Brown's been J-B. for a little while now anyway. It's been convenient to call him J.B. But Alpha Jalen is Jalen Brunson.

It's undeniable. My wife calls him Brunson-Berner. Brunson-Berner, okay. Because when she would ever watch the finals and they would be down like nine, and she's like, did the Brunson burner heat up yet? That's great. Really good. Joel, I didn't send you any of these, so you're reacting to these in the moment.

Joel wants to know. The answer is most likely still no, but now it's more interesting. With Brunson winning championship finals MVP, is Dallas letting him walk now a worse decision than trading Luka? No. What's your case? It is a diabolical mismanagement to not get anything back,

to have not. But nobody in the entire league forecasted this version of Brunson. And think about all of the pieces that had to be put into place for us to achieve and realize this version of Brunson. We thought it was ridiculous in the moment that they weren't paying Brunson. We did. That's true. That's true. For $55 million. They should have done it without blinking. What the fuck were they doing? That's right. Misbanishment. Yes, it was a colossal blunder.

The Luca trade led to Cooper Flag. What did the Brunson trade lead to? Or Brunson leaving? Luca. No, Brunson led to eventually trading a first round pick for Kyrie. They made the finals after he left. Because Brunson left, they went and traded for Kyrie. So that would be the case.

I still think Luke is worse. Lucas worse. Here's the thing. As we discussed a hundred times, they didn't shop the Luca trade is what made it horrible. And they didn't shop it because if it came out, their fans would have rioted. That should be alone why that's worse. Their fans did riot too. Their fans weren't rioting after Jalen Brunson left, but they were upset that it was

mismanaged. Yes. The Luca trade led to actual Dallas almost shutting down as a city. The league had to give them the number one overall pick. The league gave them Cooper flag. None of this was more Cuban's fault, though. Don't look at him. He was in charge of not giving him.

Brunson the 4 for 55. He hired Nico Harrison. He did that. Who then traded Luca Donchich with the new owners that Mark Cuban sold the team to. But none of it's his fault. I don't know how all this happened. He wasn't consulted. He's done an unbelievable spin job.

Reid wants to know. He said during the playoffs this year that Brunson isn't a top five player, but the Knicks built a perfect roster around him complimenting his offense while compensating for his defensive limitations. Are there any other players on your you can't win if that guy is your best player list that you'd reconsider in that Brunson led a title team? So I will say this. I didn't have a Brunson as a top five player, but I do now.

I handed in Ringer 100 and I had him fourth. I didn't put him ahead of Wembe and Joker and SGA, but you could make a case that he should have been. But I thought four seemed fair. It also was fair over the course of the regular season. I went back and looked at just the season rankings a handful of times where we're sharing lists and comparing notes and stuff. You had him 10 at different points during the regular season.

You had him 12 at a moment or two. He was like 8 to 12 range for most of the season. That was all fine. And he, you know, would he end up making the second team all NBA or did he make third team? Second team. That's appropriate. But yeah, that's all fair. So you can't win if that guy's your best player.

The only names I wrote down were Devin Booker and Jalen Brown. Oh, wow. I went through the Ring of 100 and I was trying to figure out because the natural inclination of this is like, could you win a title now with Trey Young? It's like, I don't think so. This is at the moment. This right now, not we're not talking about two years ago or talking about right now. I mean, I was going to include Joel and Bid, but that's obviously ludicrous now.

I think that's okay. I think you could include that because that would seem improbable now, but also conceivable, right? Jalen as the guy, because ultimately what we're talking about here is, I have a good team built around this one central force who will be able to get me baskets when I need them the most. This is the reason the spurs didn't win.

They couldn't get baskets when they needed them the most. Ultimately, that's why they lost. Booker, I think, is a really good one because I think his stock has slipped a little bit. And I'm sure Phoenix is now looking at, what just happened with the Knicks being like, we could do this here with Booker. We could build the same type of team over the next two, three years of chemistry, the secret. We just learned the secret from Kevin Durant and Bradley Beale what not to do.

And let's build a team around Booker and he can be R. Brunson. The only other one I was mildly intrigued by, but feel free to talk me out of this in two seconds. Shangoon? I don't think he's good enough. Yeah, that's where I landed. For the conversation. Thought about it in my head. I think that's the best kind of asset guy right now who I feel like somebody could get.

Like if I was Milwaukee, I would be looking at him. I thought he was in the worst possible city. He had no fucking point card last year on a team that had no three point shooting and had Kevin Durant with a burner scandal. It will always go down as one of the most curious set of decisions by the Houston Rockets for a team that seemed so prepared coming into the season. And as soon as FVV got hurt over the summer, it's like they went into some kind of lockdown mode. I don't understand it. Like, you had a catastrophic thing happen.

You were completely loading up. You have the head coach in place with EMA. You brought Duran in. That's the thing. They had Duran in. So why are you tossing way of the year? Right. Just nothing.

We're just going to tread water and see if we can pull something out of our butts. Shengun turns, he turns 24 in July. Last season, he was 29 and 6 assists a game.

Shot 52%. Without a point card. I don't know. I feel like there's more there. Shangoon plus two picks to Milwaukee. Now you're talking. Like, he, reminder to...

If I'm Milwaukee, I would rather have Shangoon and other stuff for Yannis than that weird Miami offer. It's like, here's a bunch of our guys from a 41 win team. And some non-lottery, non-top-10 picks. There's literally nothing coming out of Miami that's of any interest whatsoever.

Like, I love Bam. Bam's good, but it's a, that's a bad. That's an average basketball team. Milwaukee called you and said Shangoon for Jabari, but you got to say yes right now. And you have to take back Kuzman in the deal. Would you do it? Wait, wait, wait. Shangoon for who?

For Jabari Smith and Shangoon for Janus. and Houston would also have to take Kyle Kuzma's expiring as part of the deal. So Kuzma and Yannas for Shengun and Jabari Smith. Could Milwaukee get... Would you rather have that than the Miami offer? A thousand percent. Not even close to me. I think I would too.

Jason from Ohio wants to know, after seeing the love and affection New York City's had for Brunson as the star that finally brought them the championship, which player do you think has the most regret for not going to the Knicks in ending the drought when they had a chance. Is it LeBron, KD, or someone else? So this was the case. I remember writing a piece about this in 2010, that 2010, think about that. 2010 saying this was the all-time move for any NBA player.

They had 16 more years of sadness after that. But we were saying, like, this is the move for LeBron and Wade. You win a title in New York. That's the greatest thing you can do in the league. Right. They ended up not going there. There's a lot of reasons for that, including the Knicks seem like kind of a mess. Donnie Walsh in the wheelchair.

They made some weird sopranos video, all that stuff. And then KD and Karee in the summer of 2019, KD's coming off the Achilles. Kri wants to get out of Boston. KD wants to be in New York with Rich Klamin and their whole business. I was doing pod saying, because I knew they were going to be in New York. He was going to go to the Knicks. They're going to be in New York. not realizing that they were picking Brooklyn and not New York.

Which one is worse to you? LeBron and Wade not going there or Katie and Kyrie? I'm going to say Katie and Kyrie just because the East was so getable. Like you could fast forward right into a bunch of finals, like a string of finals appearances with the talent that they could have had in place there in New York. I mean, you know, the big what-if is the injury situation or surrounding Kyrie, would he have gotten hurt

with that same kind of frequency? I mean, you remember Durant was, you know, the only guy out of hardened Kyrie, the only one that was healthy. They were a 17-win team heading into that free agency. Led by Tim Hardaway Jr., Kevin Knox, Dennis Smith, Emmanuel Moodye,

Ennis Cantor. It was a great tank job. Noah Von Leyen. They tanked. Frank Nulinka? They were going for the Zion sweet. Mitchell Robinson was there. The Cordette was there.

But they went to the Nets and made them kind of clear the house and do the whole thing. It's a really interesting KD. What If? I don't know if they win the title with him, but think about how he is considered right now versus if they had gone him and Kyrie together to the Knicks, rejuvenated MSG. Maybe Leon comes with West the next year anyway, builds the right team around them.

Wow. And maybe this all happens for those two guys. It is a pretty good what if. That's a great one because think of that, right? That the magnetism of those two guys coming and what that does in terms of the incentive for other people in the league. Everybody loves the bright lights of MSG.

Everybody wants to be the king of New York. Those guys' miscalculation was that Brooklyn was going to be a thing. Brooklyn is never going to be a thing. It's not a thing now. It wasn't a thing back then, and it's never going to be a thing. Think about the next four East title winners after that,

after they went to Brooklyn. 2020, Miami, unbelievable COVID season. 2021, Milwaukee, which was a good team. I mean, middle team, that was the best year he's had, Drew Holiday, Yannis. They had their role players. Conantin was good that year. 2022, a very young Celtics team that probably wasn't ready.

Not ready. 2003, the heat again. Like, Katie, Kyrie, and a couple other people could have happened. Now, Kyrie did get a little cuckoo there for a couple of years. There was all kinds of stuff. Yeah, and I think he settled into a much better place. I actually like everything that Kyrie is saying and doing in the last couple years. But he was getting a little weird there.

We're going to have a new round of Kyrie sweepstakes this upcoming season. It's going to be one of the fun storylines this summer. Maybe at the KD staying there and Brunson moving in there. Who knows? But it is a pretty much. James, who says love the pod. Thanks, James. With Brunson winning a title on NYC, my friends and I, New York natives, have been debating.

Who is the top dog of the city? The debate falls largely on Jeter versus Brunson, Walt Frazier, etched in stone. I introduced the backroom theory, essentially. Jeter and Brunson walk into a restaurant at the same time, who does the owner give the back room to? This is a great way of framing Brunson versus Jeter. And I'm going to throw Aaron Judge in there too. Let's give me the number one.

Let's say Aaron Judge is there too. And all of them, there's one back room for 10 seats. Who gets it? I think Brunson gets it now. You don't think the owner says, guys, can we share? Would you guys be willing to share the room? Now, each of them have nine people with them. Well, some of them, like, you know, I would be, it would be like you and I don't know who your equivalent is going in there.

And then, and then I, like, if I, I would get kicked out. Like, some of the entourage has to go sit out. No, they would see you and be like, oh, Joe House is here. That's going to run the bill up by $2,000. Fair enough. Fair enough. I think it's Brunson. I think Jeter lost his spot.

He had it for from the late 90s to now. I think it's over. There's a generation. We should ask. I feel like there might be a generation now that might not remember the greatness of Derek Cheater. Is that possible? It's a long time. Yeah.

His last World Series, they went in 2000, and then they had the tainted 2009 title. Here's a great one. Scott Cameron. By the way, Judge wins the World Series. And now him versus Brunson is an argument, but he has. Scott Cameron writes, Brunson just became the only, the third under six foot three guard, along with Isaiah and Gus Williams, to be the best player in a title team.

Where does that put him in the small guard pantheon? I bring this question up, and I'll answer it in a second. I left out Gus Williams last weekend, and I feel really bad about that. He also wasn't in the pyramid of my book. And I feel bad about that, too. And I think it's one of my big misses because I went back and made a playoff MVP list at one point. I think he was the 79 playoff MVP. He was the best guy in the 79 champs.

He averaged 26.7 points a game during that playoffs. He has a first team on NBA second and two thirds. He was fifth in MVP voting in 82. He made finals, finals, Eastern Conference finals, three straight years. Held out 80, 81. He's the best point guard in the league from 78 to 82. For five years, he's the best point guard in the league and then magic takes it. And then ends up on your beloved Wizards team.

But I feel like I've done a bad job keeping the Gus legacy alive. I know you loved him too. Yeah, for sure. And when you do the resume, it's just that that was such a quiet moment for the league. I know. And I think I penalized them for that. Yeah. And it was like Walton wasn't there.

It's like you can't do it. So if you're going to praise Brunson, you can't just discount Gus Williams. You know, so I feel like I did a bad job. Anyway, the Small Guard Pantheon, it's Brunson, Isaiah, Gus Williams. and Tony Parker with titles. And then Iverson and Dame and Chris Paul. Wait, where's Tiny Archibald in this? Tiny can be there too.

I'm just saying those are the four guys with titles. So I think if you're doing a Pantheon, Small Guard Pantheon, you do the titles and non-titles. So maybe the non-titles is Iverson, Dame, Chris Paul, Tiny Archibald. Okay, okay. Although Tiny Archibald did win a title in 1981. So maybe he should be on there, too. to me it's brunson and isaiah but i think gus williams as the i think that's you got to start

with those three and i again apologies to gus ethan wants to know where i planned on putting ogy in an obi in my ringer top 100 that there's a case that he should be top 25 or higher best non-centered defender in the league really good offense if you secured your number one awesome superstar is he he the perfect number two, perfect compliment, all-time winning basketball player coming off a great playoffs. I handed my ringer 100. I had OG 17th. Oh my God.

Yeah. What? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. You know what I like house? Winning. Is he ahead of cat in what you just handed in?

You know where I had cat? 11th. Oh, okay. All right. All right. I mean, all right. Okay. Fine.

Yeah. I also had three nicks in the top 20. and I think that's the right call. Yeah. Again, when I was looking at over the course of the regular season, OG was always in the like the 40 range. Now, he was consistently ahead of Deeran Fox, which I felt I was glad that, you know, to look at the rankings and see that. But the only thing ever with OG is availability. Like, you know, it's just the injury stuff.

Now, congrats to the next. We felt in the playoffs. We thought of course. Of course. That's right. Congrats to the next. Congrats to OG. that he we got all the way through.

He was able to get himself completely healthy for the finals run. It was a thrill to see him at his, at his peak, his basketball IQ. This is the thing that we should also laud this Knicks for. The reason that they had the highest point differential is because they had the highest level of decision makers. Yes, Kat with the dumb foul trouble would always be something that you can point to. I would also say that he was getting picked on. I mean, the two fouls at the beginning of game four were, to me, ludicrous.

But look, that's setting all that aside. O.G. How about the O.G. Fifth foul in game five. They didn't even replay that, I don't think. No, I know. I know. Scott Fosses is like, yeah, fifth down. An all-time big brain, OG.

So great. Congrats. Great job. Matt from L.A. wrote that I said, O.G. is the best 3-and-D guy of the era. And he's like, what about? early spurs, Kauai Leonard. Fine. Best defense player in the league. Sat in the corner, shot threes, crashed a glass.

So I was looking at the three. 3 and D only really goes back to 2009. Trevor Arezzo was the first, like, impactful. And it was really only in the finals, but had a really good 3&D finals. It was the first time Posey was in there. There was a couple like, sure, 3&D adjacent, but not like what we have now. I was looking, I went through all the title teams trying to figure out the best. Like there's 2023 KCP.

There's a couple of Danny Greens. But they're all like 11 points a game in that range and didn't take a lot of field goals. It is 14 Kauai and 26 OG. These are the playoff stats. Great. OG was 20 points a game, 20.1 points a game. His percentages were 56 field goal, 493, 85 free throw. He only took 11.6 field goal attempts a game and average 20.1 points.

2014 Kauai, 14 points a game, 10.4 field goal attempts, only one less shot a game. 51, 42, 74 percentages. So they're around the same. It's just he took less threes than Oji did. But it's a good one. Now, Kauai was guarding LeBron. Oji, I guess, was guarded the guards on the spur. He didn't have a LeBron type assignment.

But they're 1A and 1B. I'm not, Kauai won the finals MVP. OG had the most famous play in basketball in the last 10 years. Yeah, let's just have them side by side. Yeah, I think it's side by side. I don't want to pick between that. Okay. I'm glad you agree.

A couple more Brunson's. This is from D. Bob in New York. Okay, D. Brunson and the Knicks are now the 19 out of 80 champs, not to have a top five player, 26 Knicks, 14 spurs, 04 pistons, 808 and 89 pistons, 79, Sonic, 78 bullets, 73 Knicks. And he threw the 48 bullets in there for us. Thank you, D. Bob.

Basically, he's saying going by MVP votes or first team lobby. He suggests, can we have a, can we get rid of the can't win a title without a top five player role if nine of 80 champions didn't have a top five player? That's like 14%. Yeah. My counter is that I would argue Brunson now is a top five player. and maybe he doesn't count for this one. 14 spurs was really the last one

where we were like, I don't even know who do they have a top 10 player. But I think Brunson, it's Joker, SGA, Brunson, Wembe, and Luca, probably in that order. Or Wembe over Brunson, however you want to do it. But those are the five best players in the league right now. True, yes.

No argument. Do you think, are you ready to dump that rule, though? Because that did make me think. No, because it's 86%. right the other way. I was thinking about doing a playoff manifesto for basketball next year. And I think that would be one of like there's suggestions. They're not set in stone.

But I think that is a good one to look at because that is once a decade. Yeah, right. There you go. Once a decade, something weird happens. It's basically the way to look at it. Jonathan New Jersey wants to know, wants us to know. Guess who has the most playoff wins for a player since 2021? It's no longer Brown or Tater, Marnie, Selt.

It's Jaylen Brunson at 51. Wow. Greatest playoff performer of the decade so far. That helps the pyramid case. All right. We're going to take one more break and then I have a lot of Spurs emails that you're going to enjoy.

Oh, boy. David wants to know game five did the rich New York asshole fans just a decent proposal of the entire city of San Antonio. Wait a minute. What does the walk me through it? Remember a decent proposal?

Redford, Woody Harrison, and Demi Moore need money. Right. They're in Vegas gambling and Robert Redford becomes infatuated with Demi Moore. And he's like, I'll pay you a million dollars for a night with your wife. And then they argue about it and decide to do it and she does it. That's basically all the Spurs fans with their Game 5 tickets. There's 45% Nick fans there.

Now, you're able to pay for your season tickets by doing it. But it is, I do like the indecent proposal game is a pretty funny way to do Game 5. Really good. Mike G wants to know 2006 NEC's best example of the secret since the 14 Spurs how many other teams would you say fully embodied the secret as well

I thought the 16 Cavs kind of got there sure sure I mean I really respect the last I know there was Draymont suspension but winning that game 7 in Golden State and Richard Jefferson and Kevin Love

like playing day. Like, I don't think they got there the whole playoffs, but I think they got there in those last three games. But every team embraces it the sun degree. The 14 Spurs is the most famous one,

I think, in the last 12th. Sure, that's fine. And the 11 Mavs I would put up there too. We're really splitting fine hairs to me because every one of like the 23 nuggets. Yeah, 23 nuggets is a good one. Yeah, that's pretty good. Like, you know, they really understood.

And Joker is the facilitator of, of the secret, right? Who do you want touching the ball to administer the secret? 17 warriors had it. The thing is, every, every champion has the secret some degree. Yeah. There's two teams that feel like they won because of the secret in the last 13 years, the Knicks and the Spurs, where it was like one of the top two reasons they won.

Fine. I think 11 Mabs are up there. I would put the O4 Pistons there. Good. agree that's probably it it's fine um Travis from San Antonio said salty Spurs fan here watching Fox in the finals was as painful as it can get it had me wondering what are the worst finals performances from the highest paid guy in a team I did not send this to you I did the research so Fox was 13 3 and 6 he shot 34 percent 25 percent from three

got torched by Brunson on the other end and then had the game four brain fart. I'm not ready to put 2016 Curry in there. I do think some people would. 23 a game. He was 40 and 40, 40, 80, 89 shooting splits. He played a bad game seven. I don't think he was bad for the series.

These five, I think, are in the combo. I'll go backwards from further away. 1993, Kevin Johnson mentioned earlier, 17 points a game. just absolutely murdered them in the first two games. It's got to the point where Frank Johnson seemed like a better option for him in the series. I remember this, yes. My mind went there immediately.

Stats backed up. Nick Anderson with the four free throws that he missed. For the series, 12 points a game, 36% shooting, three for 10 free throws. And just got wiped out. So he has to be mentioned. There's a great, this one got lost to history, but Kevin Martin, I'm sorry, Kenyon Martin in the 2003 finals, Duncan when Duncan ran a mock and one of the great start to finish seasons anyone's had. He destroyed Kenya Martin the first couple games of this series.

Kenny Martin for the series was 14 and 10, 34% field goals. We made a lot of jokes as it was happening. I don't think it was really his fault, though. He got destroyed by that. He took a lot of shit that series. I'm just saying. I know, but he was going against Tim Duncan, the 7th best quarter of all time. Kobe Bryant, 2004 finals against the pistons.

Wow. That's funny. Of course you had to do that. You're not, the premise here, though, was like, highest paid. It's not just naming famous guys. Worst finals performance from highest paid guys. So that Kenny Martin was the highest paid guy in that next thing. Yeah, for sure. Okay. I get that. But Kobe in 2004. Okay. All right. All right. Can I give you the stats? Go ahead. They lost in five. 46 minutes a game.

23 points a game, three assists a game, 38% shooting, 17% from three. He was three for 23 from three. And kind of got his ass kicked by the Pistons. Now, the Laker fans,

I've heard the spin from the Laker fans on this. Shaq was out of shape. Yes. Kobe had to take a lot of shots near the end of shot clock possessions. I'm just saying. He has to be mentioned.

But the worst one ever is LeBron in 2011. Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. All right. He dipped down. He was like a 27, 28 points a game guy. He dipped down to 18, 7 and 7, 32% from 3, 12 from 20 from the free throw line and famously at the eight point game and game four. He was being guarded by JJ Berea and really felt like he melted down in a bunch of different ways. To a point that we started to wonder, is this going to happen? Do we put too much pressure on him? Then he bounces back the next year and goes on his run. But I think that's probably the worst one other than Nick Anderson. What would you say? Well, was Nick Anderson at that point? That's the other one. He was paid at the top of that Orlando team.

Nick Anderson was not, and he shouldn't be in the conversation. But I just wanted to talk about how terrible of a finals he had. Kevin Johnson versus Barclay is probably even. Yeah. I mean, did Kevin Johnson made it. more than Marley at that point, right? Yeah, so he's in the top two. But yeah, if you're talking highest, highest paid,

it's Kmart, Kobe, and LeBron. But I wanted to mention Kevin Johnson. Deerrin Fox, by default, is the highest paid spur? It's the highest paid spur. It's just a fact. He's the highest paid spur. I am going to, again, mount a gentle defense for Fox.

I love this. He was missing. He was missing. No, no, I definitely do not want that. But he missed a whole bunch of plays. playoff games. He was missing games because he had a leg injury, had an ankle injury. Yeah. And it is not that uncommon for a guy to come off of an ankle injury and to not shoot the ball well. Now, the challenge is the moment called for the highest level, all of the shots that

became available at the end of games. That's right. I agree. It's more of a Mitch Johnson problem than the Aaron Fox blame circle to me. If I'm handing out slices of blame, pie. The way the Knicks played second half defense especially is, and fourth quarter defense, what was open was a mid-range jumper for whoever had the ball. And that mid-range jumper, the guy with the ball at the end of games was Deerrin Fox, and he missed nearly every effing one of them. I mean, and that's why you have Salty Spurs fans writing in.

Next year, it would be Lori Mark and banging him down. That is a really good trade. It's really good. You're going to love this next email, and I almost sent it to you, but I wanted your natural reaction live on the podcast. It's from Todd Womack. He writes, he's French, he's cheesy, and he melted down. Wembe's nickname should be fondue. Put it out there, Bill.

I love it. He's 24, and this is probably the low point in his career, but the big fondue is pretty funny. Somebody, you know, part of the rich experience of, these finals was after each game trying to imagine what the New York Post might run as their cover thing. And one of the after game four, my two favorites, they didn't go with either one of them, was just the tip for OG come flying in. That was magnificent. I heard that from many quarters, including my boy, my boy Peter Friedman gave me that one. And then Sacre blew it. That was somebody on the internet who had had, I'm in your, I'm in your head, Wembe on the floor, yelling at Mitch

Robinson doing that thing. And then the headline was Sacre blew it. Wow. Oh, God damn, damn magnificent. I don't remember who put that on the Big Fondue would have been a good post cover. Well, let's keep going.

The big, that's great. There's no reason to get off of it. Do you like Fondue or the Big Fondue? I like the Big Fondue better. I want to get all these jokes going because he's going to re-cavick on the league and the angrier he gets. The more fun the next seven seasons will be.

This is what makes next season this upcoming season so goddamn magnificent. How many times did Nix go right the fuck at him? He's like, O.G. O.Nobie's like, I'm going to dunk on this bitch. Did you see the Brunson clip in the second half? There was a slow-mo version of it. It was one of his baskets in the fourth quarter. Wemby gets switched on him.

And Brunson does like, he does the Brunson thing where he seems like he's going to go left, crosses over, gets Wemby on his side. And Wembe's like sprawling around. It looks like a deer on ice. gets Wemby on his side, then cuts in like he's going to try to get a foul on Wembe. So Wemby kind of stops

and he does this thing again. And then Brunson cuts the other way. Wemby flails the other way to go get him. And then Brunson comes back and does the left left left. It's like in slow motion, it's like one of the great clips I've ever seen in basketball.

And it's like everything you need to know about how great Jalen Brunson is. Just fucking working a seven foot six guy. He was cooking up the fondue. It's amazing. Fun do shit. We, it's good. Before we moved to L.A., my wife and I went to Montreal.

Yes. And we went to a wonderful city, Montreal. We went to a fondue restaurant. Yes. And we just ate fondue. And it was like one of the great most memorable dinners I've had. It was like just fondue. There was a chain of those.

Going nuts on fondue. There used to be a chain. It was like called the hot pot. I can't remember now. It was like a deepite thing. Have we had fondue together? I don't think we've ever had fondue together. That's amazing.

How have we not had fondue? I wonder if Chang has fondue thoughts. Let's do this. I'm going to have a dinner with Chang today. I'm going to talk fondue with Chang. You're missing because you don't live here. Manifest it. Cam from North Carolina,

I got a bunch of different versions of this question. We'll go with Cam. Is Wembe the quickest hero to villain arc in sports history? I think you can make the case. The finals alone changed how people looked at them entirely. Like even SGA that happened over the course of the season and in the playoffs, than Chris from D.C. He added...

What's up, Chris? He added, Wemby walked into June as the consensus future face of the league and walked out of it as the most unlikable man in the sport. I went in rooting for this guy hard. I came out wondering

if he's the most punchable player since peak Draymond. And then Kevin said, has anyone in history pulled off the difficult feat of going from emerging face of the league to man, this guy's a fucking jackoff in less than two weeks.

Nathan Stewart wants to know is Wembe a fake tough guy He comes across like the villain In a teen movie always smiling and acting Like the perfect kid when the adults are watching But playing dirty and trying to bully people And no one's looking It just keeps going and going

Phenomenal. This is the sentiment right now This is why I said to Zach Lowe on Saturday night When I was talking about face of the league, Future of the League, Wembe's here and it was like This was kind of a catastrophe for all those angles

I think it was it wasn't a catastrophe for his career. He's 22. He's got his whole career. I'm not overreacting to that. This is part of the process. It was just interesting to watch the perception of him shift that fast, right? Well, here's the thing.

And I want to take a couple steps back and see as we approach the next season whether this still holds true. I think there is, there's never been a more pronounced kind of experience of NBA basketball than this moment. I think he's. absolutely beloved by kids around my age, by teenage kids and younger. They will all universally tell you that they love Wembe, and they are not like, my kid.

My son loves Wembe. Same thing. Right. And he's 18. He's a little older than your boy. How many games did he sit down and watch from the beginning to the end of these NBA finals? I mean, I can tell you for my kid, none, zero. My kid doesn't sit down and watch, you know, games all the way through. He comes in.

I make him come in and watch fourth quarters for me. But nothing about what went down in these finals changes his perspective when it comes to Wemby. And, you know, the reverence, I can't tell you how many times this big dummy kept coming to me. Dad, how far away is Wemby from the goat? I'm like, you got to get, you got to leave the room right now. I do not want to be responsible for child abuse, but I will hit a man if you keep talking to me that way, even if it's a young man. But, I mean, that's, there is, we out, the basketball, the basketball, commentariat, everybody in our echo chamber, writ large, all of New York, all of New York

hates Wemmy now. I mean, it's wonderful to have him as a villain, but I think there is still yet amongst this generation that's coming up as NBA fans consuming the NBA, not by watching games, but by consuming it on the internet that will still hold Wembe in the highest regard. Honestly, similar to us with Jordan. Maybe we were in college together. We love Jordan. We love them.

But when they play the Lakers in 91, I was like, he's going to lose. He's not ready for this yet. He's magic. The old guys, they're going to teach that Michael Jordan a lesson. And this is part of the process. You got to get your teeth kicked in early. You got to climb the ladder rungs and then you got to get to where you're going to get. I will read these two emails, though.

Melting pot. That was the name of the fondue place. I didn't look it up. I knew I could get it. The melting pot. Keep going. Sorry. Michael from Chicago.

Can't help but think Wemby is pulling a 98 Carl Malone. Oh! Clutch free throws aren't going in, tentative to shoot. Didn't seem like he totally wanted the ball. Not to say he'll never have it, but he just doesn't have it yet. Might be mean or unfair, but here we are. He's 22. Yeah.

This criticism I agree with. This is from KJ. After watching the playoffs, I knew two things about Wembe. He's either seven foot five, seven foot six or seven foot seven. Agreed. I think he's 7-7, but they're claiming 75, but he's probably really 7-6. That's the first thing. Second one, he's gassed at the end of these games.

Has there ever been a 22-year-old superstar who was always gassed at the end of big games? Magic certainly wasn't. Jordan Bird, Will, Russell, Kobe Duncan, you get the picture. Wrong. This is dead wrong. Who do you have? Go ahead. Shaq?

No, no, I'm not. Go ahead. I finish the point. That's it. That's it. That's it. That's it. Okay.

we began this entire time together, this wonderful time on this Monday post-NBA finals, talking about some of the ways that the Knicks took advantage of the Spurs. I think it is a learned skill. Part of what is involved with this version of the Spurs, none of those guys ever played this level of basketball under these circumstances.

These are the highest leverage moment. Exactly. The highest leverage moments of their entire lives on a basketball court. Now, Wembe did get the Olympics. You know what the difference between the Olympics and the NBA is? The Olympics, the games are 40 minutes. They're not 48 minutes. And they're two and a half weeks.

Right. Big breaks in between games. This version, and that's why I said earlier, it's a learned skill. It's a skill. You have to, and you have to, not just the interview. players understanding when to expend energy and when not to. You don't win the game in the first quarter or the second quarter. Like all of those kinds of lessons.

You don't celebrate the Western Conference Finals like you won the title. That was fine. I mean, this was that was unexpected. And their target all along was Oklahoma City. We know this from the way that they win at Oklahoma City all season long. My biggest regret was I discounted how they reacted after they beat OKC. In your own handicapping of how this next Spurs finals were going to go down. I thought they had a better team than New York. I thought they had the perfect team to go against Brunston,

and I was right for three and a half games. But what I discounted was they'd kind of already climbed the mountain, whereas the Knicks were like icy fucking older veterans who were like, the next series is the one. And that spurs, I don't think ever realize that until it was too late. How else are they going to, they can't learn it?

This is the reason why, you know, it's a very, very unique thing that we experience. this year where we kept saying, is this the moment where we see the Spurs in experience catch up to them? It wasn't until they made it to the finals and went against the Knicks. I don't think there's any other team in the entire NBA

except for maybe a fully healthy Oklahoma City. If Oklahoma City hadn't undergone the injuries they experienced with Mitchell and J. Dub, exactly right, then where would that have ended up? They kind of had OEC's number. I think what was interesting about

this one is, like Castle lost confidence as the finals went along. Now, you could have said it was the moment. It was the how many minutes they played in the playoffs. But those last two games, he went sideways. He did not shoot the ball well. He didn't shoot. But I mean, again.

Fow trouble in game four. And then game five was kind of afraid to do stuff. But this is all part of the learning experience. All right. We are learning experience. This next question from Ethan is a good one, though. 80 years of NBA history tells us that if you make the finals, this young and lose, you probably won't make it back with the same iteration.

of that team. He lists 86 rockets that came in Samson. Didn't get back there until 94. Shack and Penny in 95 never happened again. LeBron in 07, never won in Cleveland.

KD. Until 16. But came back and he was the only same guy in the team and had to leave for four years. Fair, fair. And they had to rig three lotteries for him. Did I say that out loud?

KD. Russ. Hardin. That was a joke. KD. KD. Russ, Hardin, and Abaca in 2011. Traded Hardin and never got it back. Interesting.

So this is once a decade, 86, 95, 07, and 11. And now the Spurs would, I guess, be the next example in 26. There's two outliers for this. The 22 Celtics. They lose the finals. Everyone's ready to trade.

for whoever, and they make it in two years later and they win with the same nucleus. They have Derek White. They have Pritchard. They have Corford still. And they have the Jays. Well, they get, they add Porzingis and they add Drew Holiday. But they had a lot of the same nucleus. So that's an outlier.

And then the 79 Sonics. They make the 78 finals. They lose game seven. Dennis Johnson goes, I think, 0 for 11 in game seven. But then they win the next year against your team. So interesting. theory, though. Did make me go, huh. What can the spurs do? Because

I think this is the version of the spurs that we're going to see for the next couple years. There aren't, like, huge swings that can take. They just need Don't have to become the guy we think he is. I don't think they're that far away. But the thing that would support the idea that it may not come next year, that it might not even be two years from now is how good the West is. We still have these. And injuries. Yeah. Oh, sure, yes.

Always injuries, especially with Wemby. Coach Steve has a spurs overreaction trade. All right. The Warriors received Deerrin Fox, pick number 20, and Mitch Johnson. The Spurs received Jimmy Butler's expiring and Steve Kerr. Wow. Wow. I got to say, I kind of thought about this for a couple minutes, and I landed in a really good place with it.

This sounds very petty. Coach Steve must be from San Antonio. a very petty trade. So Steve Curry, you're, you're buying low on Mitch Johnson. But younger guy moving in, maybe, you know, maybe he learns got some scars in the finals. You get pick 20. We know that Fox for others expiring. And Steve Kerr gets to go back to San Antonio. I like Well, not only that. He loves Steph, but who, what coach would say no to the opportunity to coach up Wemby? I'm just, can somebody aggregate that? Like, that's a real trade. I want to, I want to say everybody go nuts.

It's reporting. Andrew Rell says, as someone who loves all sports, you know as well as I do. Sports are a copycat league. If you're an MBA exec in any stage of your franchise, what did you learn from how the Knicks were built? How would you copycat it? I have five things for you. Tell me if I missed anything. Okay.

Executives with connections that run a little deeper than just, oh, yeah, I met that guy a couple of times. Like, West recruited towns when he was 15 years old. Yes. O.G. and Ovo, CAA. Brunson, Rick Brunson, that whole thing. Like, these are, like, real relationships and Bridges Villanova. Like, how do you replicate that with somebody? Right.

So we've seen Arndtelman went to Detroit and that didn't work. We saw Bob Myers go to Golden State. That did work. We saw Nico go to Dallas. Too early to tell if that worked. But you're talking about connection personality, guys. There are a few of those left. There's some pretty high-powered agents left.

There's somebody like even the ringers, Rich Paul could run a team. Like, there's guys who have a lot of relationships who could do it. So that would be one. This one's interesting. Targeting proven starters, hitting the 25 to 28 age range, a little bit older, like the Rashid, Detroit, OG, Bridges, even when they got Brunson, like getting guys at that second five years part of their career. but not too late.

Right? Not like somebody like Janice and year 14. Or Kevin Duran and year 15. You're going to find out. But you know what I mean? That makes sense, right? Like that second five years of somebody's career, can we get somebody in that range?

Leveraging the player-to-player friendship histories. Chemistry, work ethic, gritty guys, I think, is one. And then my biggest lesson for them is don't be afraid to take a couple swings. Like, firing Tibbs was a swing. doing the OG trade and guaranteeing him this contract when we weren't positive, he could always stay healthy was a swing. Jalen for 4 for 106 was not a hugely popular contract.

Five picks for Mikhail Bridges. Like this team fucking went for it a few times. And I think anything else would you add? No. And I don't know how replicable any of that is. I mean, the challenge, the thing that the Knicks pulled off was like literally decades, in the making, right? It's Leon Rose and World Wide West in the

situations that they've been in. Building these decades. Right. Yes. Yes. And having perspectives on players that were undervalued or underappreciated in their situations and understanding the force multiplier of bringing

those guys together. Like, you know, we know we can unlock something. We know something about bridges that he doesn't need to be an alpha, that he can be even a, what is he, a theta, whatever, alpha, beta, whatever, the third, the third wheel is. He doesn't even need to be a second, he could be fourth because you have, he have cat also. And they got the best version of cat because they got a combination of cat maturing.

Also like, you know, because think about how many times the Knicks, you know, theoretically we're trading cat, right? Over these last two years, oh, we got to trade cat. Like even Nix fans, we're not reaching our potential. You know, we only won 50 games two years ago and 53 games this year and Kat's holding us back. And Tibbs and Kat can't get on the same page. Like, well, that means Tibbs has to go because we're not going to trade Kat. Like, just think about that and how they were rewarded for just, let's just settle down.

Let's just hold on. And the two, the best player in the first two games of the NBA finals was Kat. Do you want to be one of the judges of my Ringer game show that I'm going to start this summer where we take Knicks fans, we give them true serum. What's the thing where you have to, the drug where you have to tell the truth? I don't know the drug. They have traded towns and O.G.

and Obie for Janice and Kyle Kuzma a year ago. I just want to know how many Knicks fans would have 100% locked into that. As fantasy. Now, he'll lie. Fantasy lies all the time. Fantasy the liar. Travis wrote a TIBS thing actually about,

did I hate watching Tibbs run a rigid subman rotation into the hard, went until the wheels fell off against Indiana. Absolutely. Did it drive me crazy? I completely froze out assistance, managed huddles, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I cannot deny the results of that boot camp. Tibbs pressure cooked the core. He conditioned these guys to play heavy minutes without buckling,

taught them elite habits, blah, blah, blah. If he hadn't done all that, this roster doesn't win a title. So why is he still single without an NBA team? If I was running a lottery team like Charlotte, Washington, Portland, Chicago, Dallas, I would take a flyer on him immediately. What are your thoughts on that? This is a brilliant email, and I hope it didn't come from Tibbs agent because... It came from Travis Thompson.

Well, Travis, this is brilliant. I could not agree more. I think what Tibbs, this is literally the thing that I've been sort of railing against in terms of the criticism of San Antonio. They're not being ready. Then this next team was ready. And part of the getting. ready was what Tibbs did to them.

That's absolutely on the money. And I do think I have been wondering aloud, why isn't Tibbs at least like a defensive assistant somewhere? You know where Tibbs would make sense? And I don't know. San Antonio defensive coordinator? I mean, he could. It could work.

Because Sean Sweeney is about to leave. He's the new head coach of Orlando. I wouldn't hate to see Tibbs in Washington, D.C. I would not hate it. As your head coach, I don't know what role. Can you get rid of the guy who gave up 83 points to Bamb out of bio? I'm not. Brian Keith has done a magnificent job and I don't have anything bad to say about him.

Get out of here. He's tenure here in Washington. You're crazy. I don't hate the idea. Tibbs deserves another shot. I'll just, I'll leave it at that. I agree. Gerald sent a long email about the 2026 Spurs being the reincarnation of 2012 Thunder that I thought was interesting,

how they ended up in 2000. 12 finals going against like a boys against men type situation also a five game series that i felt like okayc was in those first four games good good and the refs good i like i can't say i love the refereeing of the first four games in that series and then by game five they kind of wilted and yep but they were toe to toe with them that whole series uh all right couple more and then we're off tim gibson said i'm sorry i have to bring this up the closest sporting event to what happened in msg with game four the finals has to be game six of the 86 World Series, not just because of the insane comeback and the choking aspect, but because it was the

win before the clincher. Thanks for all you and everyone else that the ringer does from Tim. It's pretty good. Pretty good. It really is. It's the win before the win. It was kind of the miracle that got the Knicks fans to drop their guards finally after Trump game three, game four down 27 and you need some sort of karma shift. You have the Brunson front rim bouncing right to OG crazy tip sequence. That's basically the equivalent of the Red Sox having the 14 straight strikes to end the game and not being able to. And then the Darren Fox slash Bill Buckner you could keep going. But I thought that was pretty good. And I still think game six of the 86 World Series is the worst sports loss of all time.

I'm biased because I'm a Boston fan, but to come all of those pitches away from winning the World Series and then not doing it, but then having to play game seven, if only... I love this, and it marries up perfectly because it was the game before the clincher, the only one that rivals it,

and you mentioned it immediately in the moment. No, no, no, no, no. The Atlanta Falcons giving up a 28th three late in the Super Bowl. But that wasn't, you know, That's the Super Bowl, which is not a game before a game clincher kind of situation. Yep. Dustin says, I have great news for Dallas fans. It's been a tough month for Dallas fans.

Is he talking about the Dallas Mavericks? He has great news for Mavericks fans? He thinks the Cowboys have replaced the Knicks as the sports team with the most fans who have had the longest drought and will go the most nuts if they actually win the title. And he was like, sure, it's cool that they won the Super Bowl when I was seven, but the last 30-plus years have been brutal. So they won the Super Bowl in 95. So that's 31 years.

So if you're 36 years old or under, you have no recollection of the Cowboys winning the Super Bowl. I turn the podcast over to you, Joe House, because where are the ex-redskinned commander fans in this whole thing? And I would argue Washington has almost not as many fans as Dallas, but they have a fucking lot of fans. And your Super Bowl drought was Mark Rippin, 91. 91.

And to further this, we had a, you know, a demon in charge of the franchise. I mean, a person that came in and ruined every single tradition that Washington had in place. And a whole, I mean, part of the point of pride for Washington fans growing up in the 70s, and 80s was that there was a culture. There was a way, Jack Kent Cook, you know, notwithstanding his checkered history with the Lakers and the rest of it, as an owner of the Washington Redskins was a magnificent owner and did entrusts, you know, the people that he put in charge to make good decisions and a culture developed in Washington. And that was part of the pride that we all felt, that we, it felt like Washington was built up the right way.

RFK, the hogs, you're in the city. It was the big. It was the big. biggest, by far the biggest team in this city. And then to have the new owner come in and basically for two decades take a shit on every single thing. He took a shit on the fans. He took a shit on the city. He took a shit on winning. He was all to his own narcissistic ends.

And he was a huge dick. And it took a near act of God for the league to kick him out, you know, to finally try and realize the potential of what this Washington franchise. Dallas is not in that class. Yeah, Dallas has been relevant the whole time and has an owner that actually spent money and was interesting and built a new stadium. All of it.

Yeah. You had more of the Knicks arc of just being disemboweled for two straight decades. And then on top of it, the RG3 piece of thinking you finally had the savior and then the guy gets hurt in a year was another dick punch. The Rams sent out in a game after RG3 was no longer on on Washington.

All of the draft picks, they sent out to the center of the field when they were doing the coin flip before a regular season, Rams, Redskins game. Just to fuck you. Yes. Yeah, Sean McBess, where I don't remember who the head coach was,

just sent out all the guys that they got in that trade. Terrible. We'll end there. That's a good one to end on. I'm glad you were able to make the case for Washington. I do think there's only a couple, you know, like Buffalo is obviously.

Yes, Buffalo deserves. But Buffalo doesn't have a million fans. You know, Minnesota is another one. They haven't won a title since 91. They've never won a title with the Timberwolves. The Lakers left and won all these titles without them. But they don't have a million fans. I think when you get to the Cowboys and Redskins, which is what we grew up with, those franchises, and then also had success. And then that success was taken away. I think that, I think those are the right two answers. There's nobody in the NBA like that. And then the Maple Leafs in hockey, I think would be the other one.

Ironically, the giants have been bad for a long time. I know, but that is 2011. Okay. All right, fine. Anyone who wants to shed tears for the giants can honestly go fuck themselves. Obviously, I agree. Right in the face. Yes.

Wholeheartedly agree with that. Before we go, what's your U.S. open pick? I know you'd be covering this on Fairway Rowan and the Ringer gambling show all week, but what do you got? Yeah, so I reserve the right to change my mind over a couple times. Scotty Sheffler at plus 550 is the best odds of any major. This is his first attempt. on Fandall right now. Yeah, his first attempt to clinch the Grand Slam.

It's his first attempt because he just won the British Open last summer. So this U.S. Open that he hasn't won, he's got the Masters, he's got the PGA Championship. He could clinch the U.S. Open. At those odds, hey, but how about this? I like the prohibitive favorite, but it is a good setup for him. And the thing that has been holding him back. I do like the narrative. It is the lead narrative.

Scotty is fine. going down the card a little bit, Matt Fitzpatrick has been on an absolute heater. Now, we've had two European winners win the first two majors of this season. We had Aaron Rye from the UK win the PGA championship, and obviously Rory won the Masters. But Matt Fitzpatrick very easily could have four wins this season. He finished second this most recent week at the Canadian Open. He's just on an all-time heater. And so I want a guy like that of the incredible ball striking and no problem at all with the distance

that Shinnecock is going to put. pose. Can I give you two? I'm listening. Fleetwood 20 to one. Love Tommy Fleetwood. Everybody will remember that in 2018, he shot a 63 that came this close to being a 62, lost by one stroke to Brooks Kefka. Great. Love Tommy Fleetwood. I was just wondering, is it in the air from this next title? The improbable feeling a little more probable. We just had UFC where Pereira and, and, and, Toporia just lost. Like, weird is like the World Cup. God only knows what's going to happen.

The Team USA. Look at you. Looked incredible on Friday night. It's just going to be a weird month of sports. And if that's the case, Fleetwood. I also like to offer you Zander Shafley at 20 to 1. Zander's wonderful. He has an extraordinary track record at U.S.

Opens in particular, but nobody in golf other than Rory and Scotty has as many high finishes in majors over the last 10 years. He's our number one. You're due to actually win a major guy right now. Well, he has two majors. He won two in one season, but he won the PGA Championship at Balhalla,

and then he won the British Open at Trune. So he's due to win, you know, the U.S. Open, the granddaddy of a mall. I meant the real majors. The Masters in the U.S. Open. Fine. There's two tournaments that actually better and he has it.

He has one of either of those. Both of those are great picks. Worth, worth getting some money down on both of them. Before we go, I just, I went to the, I went to the World Cup.

Oh yeah, the opener at Sofi. Look at you wearing the jersey. I saw the best American soccer game we've ever played in the World Cup. I was, I was in the Fandole box. Shout out to Christian.

And, and we had great seats. I had a great time. I got to say, I was, I was blown away by the, by the team. And Dubundo was calling this before the tournament. He was telling us like, look, I get it. I get the skepticism. Just know, this is the healthiest we've been in like four years. This is the first time we've had all of our guys. Okay. They demolished Paraguay in the first half. It was unbelievable to watch. We had guys, Pulisic was just

dominating their back right guy. Over and over again, guys just beating people 1 v1 and then creating plays. And I couldn't believe it. I was just dumbfounded. And then I don't know if that's the peak.

We'll see. Australia beat Turkey. They did. Upset. So now we have this Friday game. With this Friday game that I think is really, great. It's Friday afternoon, 3 o'clock

Eastern time. This is a everybody has to leave work lunchtime. Do not put in a full day. Go to a fucking bar. It's a national holiday. There's no work. There's no work. It's Juneteenth. It's June 10th. It's a national holiday. It's June 10th.

You're not familiar with June 10th? I forgot it was June 10th. It's a holiday. This is unbelievable. I didn't realize that was the same day. I don't look at them. Yeah. every day. I never know what the holidays are. I understand. I get it. Holy shit.

This is going to be a really special day. In Australia, a country that I like. Yeah. In general, but not on Friday. Fuck these guys. I hope we get to see. Is it at SoFi? Where's the game? No, it's in Seattle.

Oh. I wanted to be in a warm climate because the photos that are coming from the warm climate games, like I had a buddy who went up to Philadelphia yesterday to see Ecuador play the Ivory Coast. It's a wild card. And he was, it was hot in Philly yesterday. Woo! He says, first of all, I mean, I wonder if this marries up with your experience. This is my boy, Miggie.

He says that it's like a rock concert. It's like, it's not like a sporting event that you've ever kind of gone to. It's like a constant high energy of the crowd the entire time. But yes. We're not going to have that kind of complete experience in L.A. Like where you're really getting at, you know, Scotland was in the Boston game playing in Foxborough. And my daughter went out with her. My daughter went out with their boyfriend Saturday night.

They went to this place called Coogan's, which was filled with Scottish people watching the World Cup and lose their minds as game five of the NBA Finals was on. And she said it was the best sports bar experience of her life. They had like the greatest time ever. And she was like, these Scottish people are fucking nuts. She was like, we love them. They've never seen anything like that. They were just maniacs. And I was like, you realize your mom's half Scottish, right?

And she's like, oh, now it all makes sense. She's 21 years old. She just realized you DNA, which makes her like 25% Scottish and 25% Italian. But she said it was one of the most fun nights because now she's 21 too, but she said they had like the greatest time. And so I think in some of these other cities, It's a little bit of a different experience than going to SOFA in LA. But it was still great. I mean, it was everybody had the jerseys.

People going nuts. The strikers third goal for us. Yes. It had to be the greatest American goal I've ever seen. But Lugan? How do you say his name? Balgon. Bologan.

But we're both going to fuck that one up. It was like our country doesn't score goals like this normally. You know. Bad ass. Great run. muscles the dude off and then just like blasts, and he's already turning around

as the ball's going on the corner. I love that guy. Holy shit. He could have played for two other countries and he chose us. I like the guys that choose us. The guys that have options, but choose us.

I don't want to point out there's two weak spot guys that I didn't love during that game. Don't let's not talk about it. I don't want to talk about weakness. I want to talk about strength. Be positive. We were awesome.

Richards was a fucking maniac in that game. But I really got excited. Like I couldn't be more excited for the Friday game and everything else. So World Cup. I can't wait to lose more money on it. Thanks to Tony Tokens. You'll be on Ringer and Gammler show, Fairway Rowland. Thanks to Gahow and Eduardo as well for producing the pod today. I'm going to be back. I think I'm going to have two more pods this week. So stay tuned for that. And then hand that rocks the cradle is up on rewatchables right now. Joe House, I didn't tell you this yet, but you're going to be one of the people alive with me at the

right after the NBA draft on Tuesday night. So don't go. Let's go. Don't go. Don't go. Don't go I'm in. Yeah. Your team will take AJ. I might fly out to L.A. for that then. If I'm going to be live, I might as well be live. Why don't I have a meal? Like you're holding out meals with Dave Chang over my head.

Why don't I just come out? I'm sending you pictures tonight from the Dave Chang meal. We're going to a good one. Go get some fondue. All right. Thanks, house. Thanks to the big fondue. Thanks to everybody else.

Thanks for all the mailbag emails out there. And I'll see a little bit later in the week. Must be 21 plus in President in Select States for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and president in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming, given problem, call 100 Gambor or 1-800-500 by reset. Call 88879-777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or MD gambling help.org in Maryland.

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