The Bill Simmons Podcast - Wild/Plausible NBA Summer Moves and Houston's Conundrum With Zach Lowe | The Bill Simmons Podcast (Ep. 368)

Episode Date: May 21, 2018

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by ESPN's Zach Lowe to discuss possible Chris Paul–Rockets contract decisions, Toronto's coaching situation, fixing the NBA playoffs, and the wildest NBA summer moves you'd actually believe. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I don't know what else he's up to, but he is on here. We're going to talk NBA playoffs. How are you? I'm good, man. How you doing? It's a pretty boring weekend of basketball. This seems like a recurring theme where we have a lot of dead days between games, especially like if some of those round twos end early.

And then the game three, it's like either feast or famine with the quality of the games. I know we're going to get two great game fives. That's happening. But I don't know. Round three has left me a little cold. Has there been a good game yet? I guess the game ones were like semi-good. No, the game ones weren't.

Game one, Boston was not even semi-good. Game two was a little bit. Game one of Houston, Golden State was like okay. It's fine. Game two, Cleveland- bit. Game one of Houston, Golden State was like, okay. It's fine. Game two, Cleveland-Boston was at least compelling because LeBron came out and was gangbusters. That game was probably better than we realized. Cleveland didn't play well.

But I'm trying to think. As always, when I go on your podcast, we're more focused. We're more basketball. This one, when you come on mine, I throw hypotheticals at you. I make you uncomfortable. I push you into places you don't really want to go. I'm not going to do that right away. I want to talk.

I have a segment coming up later, so hold on to your seats. Oh, yeah. Listeners, most shocking summer moment you'd actually believe. That's coming up later on the BS Podcast. Right now, I just want to talk quickly about the two round threes. Sure. First question. Can Chris Paul at age 33 be the second best guy on a championship team?

I think so. Okay. You know, he hasn't been good in this series. I think he has 52 points on 47 shots I just read or something like that I'm gonna pull up his game log now and I don't you know what I don't want to hear I don't want to hear anything about anyone's leg injury anymore I just don't want to hear it I'm done hearing it Steph have you ever seen a player um turn around more dramatically from first half to second half than Steph last night it might be the the biggest halftime turnaround

I've ever seen you think they what do what do you think, something fishy happened? They put him in some hyperbaric chamber? This is what happens on the BS report. Hyperbaric chamber? Is that fishy, though? A hyperbaric chamber? No, I think stuff is going on in the locker rooms, though. Remember Game 7, Indiana? LeBron had

cramps, and instead of them treating the cramps on the bench, he actually left and went to the locker room, and I think they just put him in some 22nd century hyperbaric chamber and pumped hemoglobin into his, into his, the sides of his head and did all these things. All of a sudden he was fine. I don't know what happens. He ate oranges. Is that what it was? It's a party line, my friend. He ate, he ate some orange slices and I think he drank some water.

He ate some orange slices. Okay. I'll try that. My daughter has a three-day soccer tournament this week and I'll try some orange slices and I think he drank some water. He ate some orange slices. Okay. I'll try that. My daughter has a three-day soccer tournament this week and I'll try the orange slices thing. But Chris Paul, there's this contract extension that's just looming over both Houston season, if it ends in five, which I think is probably a fairly safe bet at this point, maybe six. But this, you know, I do believe that wink wink stuff happens. I think it's impossible to prove. I think the Joe Smith thing put the fear of God in everyone. I refuse to believe that Chris Paul left all that money on the table last summer unless he was at least reasonably confident he was getting an extension from Houston. At the same time, when we've seen the John Wall contract, the Blake Griffin contract,

the Mike Conley contract, the thought of paying Chris Paul 30 plus million a year for the next four years after this year, when he's heading into his mid thirties, to me is terrifying. What do you, what do you think about this? So everyone agrees that, well, everyone, everyone sort of around the league. I'm not talking about anyone who is involved in the process, but everyone agrees that some sort of – this doesn't happen, as you said, with some sort of understanding of what is going to happen in the summer. However, Daryl Morey is too smart to not know that a five-year max deal

for Chris Paul is a terrible idea. So I don't know what's going to happen. to not know that a five-year max deal for Chris Paul is a terrible idea. So I don't know what's going to happen. If you force me to bet, I might bet on like a three-year max. Maybe that's the happy medium they land in. You get your max, it's three years, so you can maybe get another good deal after that and you're almost whole from leaving that five on the table last summer. But then again, I mean, in a fit of exuberance, they signed Ryan Anderson to a deal that is completely untradeable.

So maybe Daryl's just, I'm going to go all in short term and consequences five years from now will be damned. We'll figure it out. I don't know. But I would bet like three years. Doesn't that seem like a nice place to land? It does. I think what's hanging over this whole rocket season right now,

especially you can feel it this week and last week, especially. It kind of has to happen this year with the team they have. I don't see a roadmap for this team becoming better next season. I don't see a roadmap for kind of a better chance to upend the Warriors than after when they're in the middle of their four straight finals and who the hell knows if Steph is 100% and whatever. And also they have home court in game seven. All of these things have lined up for them to win. And right now the Warriors are like minus 900 to win the series. They're up 2-1.

And so at that point, you just look at it and you go, all right, well, what's the play here? Now Quinn Capella's going to be a free agent. I think he's a $20 million a year guy this summer, and I think there are teams that would go after him. Now you're adding him to Eric Gordon, who I think makes 15 or 16. Anderson's at 20. Harden is early on in this gigantic supermax deal

that has him already in the 30s. And if you lock down Chris Paul, that's basically your team for the next three years. And I don't know how you get out of that. You know what I haven't done enough research on because it's the playoffs and I just don't have time to do these things in the playoffs. I don't know what the gambling money impact is going to be, or if there's even any universe in which that money comes into the league in time to save some of these Supermax contracts. Like if the cap suddenly goes up again with some giant spike, all of a sudden those Westbrook Wall contracts aren't as bad

as they are appearing to be right now, or as untradeable as they appear to be right now. So I just haven't done enough research on that. But there is some wild – maybe it's just not possible within five years that there's going to be enough gambling revenue to come in. I don't know. Well, you're a much, much better reporter than I am and you work connections much, much better than I do. I care about gambling much more than you do. Oh yeah. And I have asked this question to a couple of people because even though the consensus is that the NBA is phenomenally successful, which I think it is. So in my head, I was like, oh, the cap will just keep going up every year.

And the feedback I've been getting across the board is now it's actually going to be right around where it is right now for the next couple of years. There's no real way for them to bring in that much money that would affect the cap. I don't know. Next year. Yeah. It'll go up. The next couple of years is just going to go up.

It's usual 3% or whatever. I'm talking about if you sign whoever to a super max this summer, Russell Westbrook's going to be making $46 million in 2022. Is there going to be any relief by that point? I don't think so. The next couple of years is hopeless for sure. I think, yeah, you're looking at five years from by that point? No, I don't think so. Next couple of years is hopeless for sure. I think, yeah, you're looking at five years from now, but even then I don't,

I just don't think it's that much money because you're talking about whatever it is, the split is by 1 30th. So let's say they bring in an extra 300 million in gambling money, which is a lot. That's still only, how much is that? The 30, so it's like extra 10 million. That's not helping me with Russell Westbrook

making $48 million a year or whatever. I don't really know what Houston does. They could get somebody to take Ryan Anderson's contract for a year. There's only like seven teams with cap space that have to pay for it, that have to give up picks and stuff. But he's got

two years left. I thought it was one. Are you sure? I'm looking at it now. He's got 20 and then 21.3. Oh, God. Are you sure? According to I thought it was a three year 60. It was four years? Yeah, I believe so. It was before 80. Something like that. Oh, that's a

mass murder oh my god wow when when will we do the first documentary about the summer of 2016 do you think it's kind of like adam mccassey it should be like the sequel to the big short it should be like the big the big reverse short who are we gonna build we gotta have a character to build it around is it mozgov i think he'd be game i think he'd be game to sit down for an interview he's a goofy the big reverse short. Who are we going to build? We got to have a character to build it around. Is it Mozgov? I think he'd be game. I think he'd be game to sit down for an interview. He's a goofy guy.

He's honest. I think him or Biambo, maybe get them in a room together. I would say it's Mitch Kupchak. He's kind of patient X. The dang Mozgov contracts, which I don't know. There's been a lot of inexplicable things

that happened this decade, but that's got to be way up there. The rebuilding Lakers somehow decided to just murder their cap when all these guys are free agents and contracts are getting shorter. I still have no explanation for that. That's been satisfactory for me. I still together. They are and were inexplicable.

Biambo at 17 a year. 13 that had a center. After it had a center and you just signed a Baca or traded for a Baca. It just never made, it just, it came across Twitter and I was like, this has to be wrong.

No one would ever do this. So I'm in for that documentary. I actually, I went to Kevin Clark's wedding this weekend, who's the only Orlando Magic fan that I know. And his mom gave a toast and talked about all the Orlando Magic games they've watched together. And, you know, we always hear about these tortured fan bases and it's the usual suspects. And the Knicks have done a great job as perpetuating themselves as tortured. And they are to a lot of degree. they have one of the worst owners in the league. But man, if you're a Magic fan, all the losses you've had over, I don't know, the last even like seven years from a transaction standpoint, but that combo of Biambo and then the Ibaka trade,

where you basically give up Oladipo and the 11th pick for four months of a Baca, six months for no reason. There's no reason for it. It wasn't like you're a contender. That's, that's catastrophic. It takes five years to recover from that. They had my fit.

What if it was a real tweet and I'm not going to look it up now. Didn't they tweet like, congratulations, Shelvin Mac on leading our team and assists with 3.9 per game. Well, they're trolling their fans at that point. Technically, Peyton led the team in assists, but he wasn't on the team by the end of the season. I think that was a real tweet. And if it was, it's almost funnier than the Raptors saying, congrats, coach, to Dwayne Casey.

I know you've talked about this. I want to get back to Chris Paul in a second, but I don't want to forget this. Dwayne Casey getting fired. I would say you're the most connected in Toronto to the point that I think you might even secretly be on the staff and you guys have never announced it. Your tentacles are everywhere with the Raptors. You have a whole Canada thing.

You're there a lot. The Dwayne Casey getting fired without, basically getting fired when he did, do you think they fired Dwayne Casey as a way to prevent the Kyle Lowry slash DeMar DeRozan trade that one of those guys probably needs to get dealt? Or is there something I'm missing with this?

Like they want to give those two one more year so the coach had to go. You can't bring back all three. Coach becomes the fall guy this year. The next year, something else happens. Yeah, I think, you know, it's fine. I think they'll look at, I mean, I think they would look at trades involving those guys

if they were good, like no-brainer good trades. But I wonder if they just have no hope of any such trades emerging. Excuse me. I got something in my throat here. I'm getting emotional talking about the Raptors. I think Masai Uehara triggered his electrical device that he has in your body when you talk about Toronto. And so short of that i think this era is depressing as this cleveland sleep was and my god was it depressing i think it's been so by

far the best era in the history of raptors basketball that the low the easiest path of least resistance is just run it back change the coach we got to clear out some of the bad vibes that have come on to the not bad vibes just. You just can't keep losing like that every year and bring everyone back. It's easier to fire the coach than anything else. And look, it's no secret. This has been widely reported. Like Dwayne spent much of his tenure on the hot seat. He wasn't my size higher.

And when they got swept by Washington three years ago, there was a chance he would get fired then. If they had lost to Indiana the following year, I think he maybe would have gotten fired then, and that's been reported too. So I think it was a change that was made irregardless of anything else. But interestingly, I thought they were going to hire Bud right away. A lot of people around the league did,

and they have the money to outbid anyone. And it's interesting that no one has yet written the story, and I don't know what it is, about why that hire didn't happen. Maybe it's as simple as Bud looking around and saying, hey, this team is maybe headed for a rebuild in two or three years that could be unpleasant, and this other team has Giannis. Maybe that's all it was, but I don't know where the Raptors go from here. Yeah, you always want to go to the team that has the most likely MVP candidate for next season

and dramatically underachieved because of their coaching. I think that's the right move for him. Walking into that ownership group is a little scary because, you know, we've all heard the stories about that. With Toronto, though, it's always funny. You always hear this about it wasn't their hire. You hear that with the Lakers, with Luke Walton. That got a lot of buzz last December, January. And then when Lonzo did not really defend Luke in any way,

then I think Magic and Poinca had to go out and support Magic. But just in general, it seems like a recurring theme over the course of a NBA is, well, I inherited that guy. That's not my guy. It's just a weird way to think. Cause if Dwayne Casey, it seems like he might be better than any coach that's left out there. If you're not going to hire coach, but unless is there somebody I'm missing? That's an awesome candidate.

It doesn't seem like it. It's interesting that Steve Clifford hasn't gotten hired yet. I thought he would have a real shot in Milwaukee, and I think he did, but I don't think he was one of the final two. Messina is still out there. Nick Nurse and Stackhouse and Kalamian internally are out there. I think in general, to your point, it's always bugged me. There's a very – there is not enough respect for institutional knowledge in the NBA.

And by that, I mean, like, it's just like a prerequisite. When you get a new GM or a new coach, it's fire everybody. Everyone's gone. Like, I don't care if you've been there 15 years and you know everyone. You know the inner workings of this guy. This is like everyone gets fired. I'm just like there's got to be one or two guys everywhere who are like good and you should want to get to know them and maybe keep them.

And I also think Messiah's gotta, gotta take one on the chin for what happened this season because I don't, I, the one thing I don't understand is LeBron owns that team. He's on that team for all of the decade and last year did his thing. So they go into this year and they don't really solve the who guards LeBron thing. Like, you know, I give the Celtics credit. The reason they wanted Marcus Morris was because they studied those stats about how he defends LeBron as well as anybody,

which doesn't really mean a hell of a lot. LeBron's the best player in the league, but he can at least make him work. And he's at least had some success tempering him, I guess would be the best way to say it. Toronto goes into this season and basically didn't have anybody that you would have counted on. And I didn't understand that part. And I don't understand when you know there's one team you have to beat, why you wouldn't have spent the whole summer looking for that person. Now you could say it's OG, but now you're counting on a rookie against LeBron, which I think is a bad idea. I didn't really seem to have another a lot of options outside of the uh the team he was already playing for and i don't understand why they didn't prioritize that what's your explanation well the other the other one is damari carroll right damari carroll falling on his face in toronto and having injury problems then they end up salary dumping him and attaching what i believe is a 29th pick in the draft. Yeah. That hurts because he was supposed to be that guy.

I think they had some hope that Siakam could be that guy this year, and he did an okay job, but offensively he's a year or two away from being able to play 25 minutes in that series. And you hit on the biggest, to me, the single biggest story in Toronto beyond Dwayne getting fired, beyond Kyle and DeMar having their usual ups and downs in the playoffs although I thought Kyle especially was pretty good throughout is the complete collapse of Serge Ibaka because it two years ago maybe even a year ago he was a guy that you would like on purpose put him on LeBron or you would say we're switching everything you're

involved in you can guard LeBron we're okay with that kind of like Al Horford like I'm surprised we haven't seen a little more of Al Horford on LeBron. I mean, the Celtics, as you said, have the luxury of a lot of guys who can do it. But Serge Ibaka completely vanishing became the biggest story in that series and in these playoffs for the Raptors. And I don't know really what you do about that. Well, it wasn't like he was lights out in the 2017 playoffs no but you could you could play him you could no i know he was like they had to just not play him as much by the end and it

becomes a liability that's a big jump yeah that's true but i'm saying like they paid him as if it was somebody who was like the third best player on a team that could win the title. And I didn't see that in the 2017 playoffs. If anything, you know, they had PJ Tucker who then went to Houston for not like a crazy amount of money. And if in retrospect, I'm sure they would have just rather paid $10 million a year for PJ Tucker, punted on a Ibaka, kept Amari Carroll and kept the 29th pick versus just giving that money to Ibaka. I have to look it up, but I believe they outbid Houston for

Tucker, but not by such an amount that it was meaningful to Tucker to not go play with Chris Paul, who's his childhood buddy. Right. He's texting him hard and texting him all that stuff. Back to Chris Paul. Good segue. Yes. buddy and right he's texting him hard and texting him all that stuff back to chris paul good segue yes um i you know i felt like he hit this point last year i think it's really hard for him

to be excellent throughout a playoff series at this point in his career we saw this last year against the freaking jazz he couldn't do it couldn't do it game after game he couldn't carry a team so it's like all right fine he's not the best player on a team that can win the title anymore, but he can be the second best player. And now I'm watching this series and Harden's taken a ton of shit as usual. And I have not seen the Chris Paul kind of impact. Curry's a guy that he's had a lot of success against over the course of his career. And it was definitely a big brother, little brother bully thing, which I remember, I think it was the 2013, whatever the Warriors, 2014, maybe 13 or 14, whatever that first, when it went seven, where's Clippers? I remember going to that Warriors Clippers game. 14. 14. And Chris Paul beat the shit out of him in that game.

And it was awesome. And Curry took all of it. And by the end of it, I was like, Curry's going to be special because Chris Paul threw the kitchen sink at him. And he kept coming game and it was awesome and curry took all of it and by the end of it i was like curry's gonna be special because chris paul threw the kitchen sink at him and he kept coming back like this kid there's something this kid's got it um i thought chris paul would have a bigger impact in this series and i just have not seen it yet what are you seeing um well he's he's injured bill we have to talk about the like no we're not talking about that. No, let's talk about it. No, no, I don't. I have no idea, and I'm not – it's the same thing with Steph.

Like, he looked – there was a possession late in the second quarter last night where he couldn't get separation on Gerald Green and, like, launched this awful 20-footer that missed. I'm like, wow, Steph doesn't look right. And then he comes out in the third quarter, and it's just an avalanche. So I don't care anymore. I mean, I care for their well-being. Yeah. He hasn't – I mean, I thought he missed some good looks last night.

I thought he actually got his most separation from Looney on switches last night and missed every one of the open looks he got. Then he took some bad shots, isolating against players who are too good for it. Chris Paul isolating against Draymond Green is a way for the Rockets to not win the series. Same thing with James Harden isolating against Klay Thompson or Igwit. It's just not a way they're going to win doing it over and over again. And look, I mean, he just hasn't made enough shots. Defensively, he's been fine.

I think what's really happening is they're playing an all-time great team, and they're just not as good as the Warriors. And now, does he have to play better? Yeah, they also lost by 41 and whatever they lost by in the first game. So to me, it's always about how good the Warriors are when they lock in and they're really good. I wrote about Chris Paul last year when they were in that middle of that jazz series. And it's basically like the lifespan of a point guard. It's a little like running backs in the NFL. It's unrealistic to expect them to be just unbelievable for more than 12 years.

And history basically says it's not happening. And at some point you have to cut down their minutes to maximize what you can get out of them. And I think John Stockton was an alien, but if you look at the course of John Stockton's career, they were so careful about his minutes throughout. Jerry Sloan was like fanatical about it and they were able to extend his prime, but not in a way that he was as impactful as say Chris Paul in 2008. And I just think that, I think he's at a different point of his career. It could happen

once every two weeks where he's, he can take over, but I just don't see it on a day-to-day basis. The question was, can you be the second best player in a championship team? And I think, yes. I mean, if Houston is the second best team in the NBA and the margin is large and the first best team in the, first best, the first best team, I'm going to stick with it, is the Golden State Warriors who are chasing their third title in four years and won best team in the end, the first best team, I'm going to stick with it, is the Golden State Warriors who are chasing their third title in four years and won 73 games in the year they didn't win the title. I think that that qualifies as a championship caliber team.

I wonder, I know other people have made this point, but I do feel somewhat passionate about it. Mike D, you know, in football, the run and shoot offense, they're just opening up and just trying to outscore the other team. It's more of a regular season thing. And once you get to the playoffs, or at least historically, once you got to the playoffs,

you at least needed to get stops every once in a while. But I look at D and Tony, the regular season version of what they try to do versus the playoffs and especially this whole isolation ball that they created this year, which is devastating if you're seeing it in the middle of February where you've just played three games. All of a sudden, now you're seeing this and it's like getting hit with a two by four. But over the course of a seven game series, I wonder if it gets a little easier to defend over the course of two weeks.

What do you think on that? There might be something to that. And they definitely go through phases where they just sort of settle for that more when they should, like, I mean, why did they win game two, right? They had a little more speed and variety to their offense. And when they don't do that against an elite defense,

they're going to be vulnerable. For the playoffs, there's still 110 points per 100 possessions, which is third among playoff teams right behind the Warriors and the dearly departed Raptors. And they blitz the Wolves and they blitz the Jazz. And I think, again, like the Warriors, when they start – I mean, we talked about Houston switching, right? Like I think Golden State switches just as much and maybe even more last night

and took them a lot out of what they wanted to do. And when they don't push the pace, they're facing – like even Looney was awesome last night. Like Looney had six defensive possessions in the first half. I was like, is that Kevon Looney? Man, he's hanging better than I thought he would. And, you know, they didn't play David West, which helped their defense. By the way, the lineups that started the second quarter,

I'm going to look it up, were just like, it's just crazy how good these teams are. And the second quarter is usually like this dead zone of like, you know, oh, you got five bench guys on the floor. Warriors were Curry, Livingston, Clay, Nick Young, and Draymond. That's ridiculous. Yeah, it's pretty good. Houston was CP, Gordon, Ariza, Clay, Nick Young, and Draymond. That's ridiculous. Yeah, it's pretty good. Houston was CP, Gordon, Ariza, Tucker, Capella.

That's just like these teams are so good, it's ridiculous. Yeah. It's, you know, the Looney things, they turned down his option. I think last in like September, somewhere in that range. And I think it was for like 2 million, which would have been like a dream for the Warriors. Cause they, you know,

they're looking for anybody who's competent for less than 5 million. And now he's going to leave because they did that. Hold on. We gotta take a break. Let's talk about Captain Morgan. The captain will not rest until he has brought his adventurous spirit and delicious rum to every corner of America. Original spice, coconut, pineapple, white, black grapefruit, whatever you want.

The captain loves anyone who learns to mix like a captain. We're going out of the NBA realm for this week. I wanted to make my captain, Peter King, who wrote his final episode of the Monday Morning Quarterback column on SI.com today, one of the internet pioneers. One was Peter Gametz leaving the Boston Globe and bringing his baseball column, which was incredibly influential in the 80s and 90s and was probably the single most important piece of sports content written that anybody had. And he left the Boston Globe and he brought it to ESPN. And I've talked about this before, but when that happened, it became one of those moments where even people like my dad were like, how do I get on the internet? What do I type in?

ESPN.com. That was huge. And the other thing was Peter King, his Monday morning quarterback column, which I can't remember when it started. It was late nineties or early 2000s, something like that. The reliability of having that every Monday was basically an homage to the stuff I grew up reading

the notes columns from Gammons, from Bob Ryan, from Will McDonough and some of the other things that, you know, where you sat down for 15 minutes and you read something. And I think for me, that was one of the reasons that I kind of crafted my column the way I crafted it in the late nineties. I wanted long columns that people would take 15 minutes to read. That's what I grew up with. Now the internet's changed 20 years later. People have less of an attention span. They don't want to spend 20 minutes reading something unless it's phenomenal. But what Peter King thought was able to do on those Mondays and how essential that was to read that column.

And it just became one of the pillars of the internet in the 2000s and carried over to this year. I always really respected how even as he got into his fifties, he was up until three 34, four 30 in the morning, finishing that piece, drinking lattes, not great for your health, which I think is one of the reasons he decided to scale it back. But I really admire that guy. I admire his career. I really enjoyed reading that column. It was always free, which I enjoyed. It was about as much free content as I've ever consumed. And he's a guy who, even though he likes beer,

I don't think he's going to mind this one. We're making him the captain of the week. Peter King, good luck to you at NBC. Back to Zach Lowe. All right, important question. This conspiracy bill is now in the house are we seeing NBA I don't want to use the word throw games

but are we seeing NBA coaches kind of punt on the strategy that they know might work and save it for the next game because they feel like the deck is stacked against them for a certain game because it's something that deck is stacked against them for a certain game. Cause it's something that I have no evidence of this. It's something that I think Brad Stevens,

where he knows what the right adjustment is, but he, I think he actually will hold off on that adjustment in a game that he feels like it's probably a long shot. They can come back and win and would rather save it for the next game. Like game six, Milwaukee was a very strange game where they kind of came out almost like they knew Milwaukee was just going to hit them with a haymaker and didn't do certain things in that game that in game seven, all of a sudden it was like, oh. And it was the same thing against Philly in game four when they were playing the smaller guys and the Celtics weren't posting them up. And it was like,

that's weird. They have Redick and Belenella, all these guys, like McConnell, like we should be posting these dudes up. Then in game five, that was the entire strategy. So game three,

he doesn't start Baines, doesn't really play Baines a lot. Even though we learned in game two, that that big lineup against Cleveland with Thompson and Love and LeBron, you're better off starting Baines. So I think he's going to start Baines in game four tonight. We're taping this at 930. Do you think these coaches look at these series sometimes and be like, I'm going to wait till this game to do this? No, but I do. Maybe, but I don't think they do that. Like, I'm saving this for game four. I do think when they get down 25 in the third quarter,

you can just look at Horford's minutes. I think, you know, you just sort of pack it in and you get your Yabusele's and your Monroe's out there. Right, and Jalen Brown only played, I think, 21 minutes in game three. For a coach who doesn't care about foul trouble and has said so repeatedly. Right. Yeah, because the other thing I was looking at

was with the Rockets. I really like, and we were talking about this in our Slack and Jonathan Chark said the same thing. I like that lineup with Paul and Gordon and Harden and Ariza and Tucker. And I think if they can beat the Warriors in this series, that's probably the key lineup.

Just throw away Capella and just put shooters out there and try to outscore them, basically, which is kind of the unthinkable to put more offense on the floor than the Warriors have. But I really think that might be their only chance. And they didn't really play that lineup yesterday. It was almost like Mike D knew, like, game three, we're not winning this one.

Game four is the game. So you're not buying this conspiracy. No, I mean, I buy it that, yeah, I buy it that you bag out when you're down big and just save your guys and save your best cars for the next game. I buy it. I believe that's their second most played lineup of the series. It is played only 18 minutes.

That's not enough. No. But I'm going to, Can I disagree with you on your own podcast about a couple things? Please do. I think they shouldn't start Baines. And that's number one. I think they should stick with the lineup that they have. Baines and Horford actually played more together

in game three than they did in any other game. And to me, that's... I'm riding with the five out or whatever I can get with Horford at center. But I'm fascinated to see. I assume they would just start the same lineup again. I'm fascinated that you think they won't. And now I'm super intrigued for game four,

which I just wrote an entire piece for and did not mention that they might change that starting lineup. Well, here's the case for it. I think Morris has to be on LeBron. And I think Horford has to be on Love. So if you're going to do that, the choices now are either have Jalen or Tatum guarding Thompson. I love it.

They're doing it. I know, but I don't love that, though, because it seems like over and over again, then the guys get messed up, and all of a sudden Morris isn't on LeBron. And I, I just, I want to take out Thompson. I don't want him to get offensive.

The first six minutes of the game against Cleveland, I think is super important. I don't want offensive rebounds. I don't want LeBron to get going and I don't want love to get going. And the other thing I think they'll do tonight, if Roger can't, if, if George Hill is looking, and I don't want Love to get going. And the other thing I think they'll do tonight, if Rogier can't, if George Hill is looking any sort of competent in the first couple of minutes,

I think he's going to bring in Smart early. Because George Hill, it's like, he can't do anything. You can't let him do one thing. You just got to take him out. And I think, you know, if you look at what they did against Philly in game five, they played seven guys and they played Og Ojale eight minutes.

But it was basically a seven-man team for that game. I think that's what they do in this game. I think this is the haymaker game because you don't want to go to game five where now it's a best two out of three and the other team has LeBron. I hate using the word must win because I don't think it's a must win because Cleveland still has to win in Boston. But the longer this series goes on, the other team has LeBron. You have to go for it tonight. Whatever your best moves are, I think you have to do it tonight. Game five, you know the crowd

can carry the young legs and the athleticism, energy, all that stuff. You know you're going to have that in game five. Tonight is a night you could put this series away in five if you win tonight. I agree that this is an urgent game for the Celtics and at some point they're going to lose a home game. Especially when the other team has LeBron.

I would go so far as to say whoever wins tonight wins the series. Wow! I love that. That's like such an ESPN afternoon talking head comment. It's great. Are you saying I don't fit that description? No. No.

It's like you drank the ESPN talking head juice. We'll see. Could be a dumb take, just like they're not going to start mainstay. Could be proven dumb. I think the team that wins game seven is going to win the series. Well, I can't disagree with you there. How would you fix the NBA playoff schedule, just out of curiosity? What would you do?

Why do we have so many breaks? I'm a big fan of—I would make the first round best of five again. I would too. I also think I think the number one seed should get to pick its opponent in every round.

I've always liked that idea. And I mean I know there are some GMs who think that there should be buys and stuff. I have not seen that's a complex change

that I have not seen how you would just let that play out. But I want the number one seed rewarded in the most possible ways. So I think you should get to pick whoever you play in every round

and they should re-seed if necessary or whatever. Best of five in the first round to increase our chances of an upset. And after that, I don't really know. And they set the finals date in stone way early in the season or before the season. And so there's only so much you can do

if all these series end early, you're going to have these, these periods of, of off time. What about best of five first and second seeds get four of the five games at home? Ooh, that sort of undercuts my chances of more upsets argument though.

How about just the one seed gets, gets the first four out of five first stage, you get something. So if you, if you're the first seed, you get one, two, four, and five at home. I think I'm going to say no and that picking my opponent is enough of a bonus.

I don't think they'll ever do that because they like having the bracket of knowing, okay, if these two teams win, then we can move their game one up to that Sunday. They can't wait for the team to pick the opponent because then I think you'd have to wait around for every series tent. Just find a way.

If they can find a way to like, they discussed this mid-season tournament, which has kind of fallen off the radar, actually. If you can find a way to do all this, find a way to make it happen. I would love to see them cut it down to 75, especially this year when you see how tired these teams are.

We talked about this on your podcast, I think, at some point over the winter. I think it's just harder to play basketball now. I think there's more running and sprinting and jumping out, and it's just more intense. And the pressure of if you mail it in, it ends up on YouTube and Twitter right away. Go watch these games from the 80s.

These guys didn't try on defense till the last eight minutes. It wasn't really until the Bad Boy Pistons and then the Riley's Knicks that defense really became the super physical thing that it almost ended up to really in the league. I just think that seasons should be shorter and all of it should be a little more compact. My guess is that the league is so popular right now, they won't do anything. And maybe they shouldn't.

Their argument is like, it's an 11 month a year sport now. Why would we change anything? Everybody loves the NBA. What are you talking about? They want it to be 12 and it's not good for the, it's not good for the little household if it becomes a 12 month a year sport. I don't know how they do it unless they have a Kyrie trade every August. They basically have to ask teams to punt on trades until August. I think the idea was we're going to – remember, it was like we're going to make this World Cup a thing, and I guess that's not every year, so you can't do that. But if we make that a thing and we make the Olympics a thing and maybe the NBA takes some

sort of ownership stake in the World Cup, which is an idea that I believe Cuban, among others, supported, then we come close. But people don't care about international basketball enough. It's just those tournaments, they don't generate the clicks. I agree. The entertaining itself tournament, which is I think in year 11 of that idea and they're obviously never going to do it at this point

oh I just I don't think it's obvious at all that idea has I've written about it that idea has real momentum but it's a it's a different idea now

it's basically 7 versus 10 and 8 versus 9 in each conference yeah you're not going to get the full on not getting the full the full March Madness yeah

even though I would love it but 7 versus 10 8 versus 9 I thought love it. But 7 versus 10, 8 versus 9. I thought the, what was it? Minnesota versus who that night

to get to? Denver. Minnesota versus Denver. That saved the idea because when LeBron, remember LeBron trashed it after my piece came out? He said,

that's whack. Well, when LeBron says something, that's a huge deal to the NBA. Like when LeBron came out before the season and said, I'm going to stand for the anthem, everyone in the NBA league offices was like, all the players will just do what LeBron says.

And then, but Minnesota, Denver being an exciting game saved the play in tournament for sure. That was an awesome game. And it was fun. It was like a fun night. It was kind of a moment that wins an eight. That's why I think if you cut down the games and then you put those seven versus 10, eight versus nine, and you just made that basically Friday, Sunday, and they could blow

that out and then start the playoffs the following week. There's a roadmap. We're going to take a quick break. All right. I've been shaving since college. What changed my life was the Gillette Fusion Ultra Sensitive Skin Shaving Gel. Although I haven't been using it for the last two weeks because I have a scraggly, awful beard right now. But when I do shave, it's what I use. You know what else I use is the Gillette 5 Razor. Five-bladed razor lubrication strip, great gliding performance, less irritations, smooth shaving service thanks to their 15

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Oh boy. Most shocking summer moment you'd actually believe. I'm excited. You've hinted at this on your podcast. We're going to go full born. This is 1A, 1B will be coming in a second. Carl Anthony Towns will get traded by Minnesota. Don't believe it. Don't believe it. People need to listen to the podcast. Okay. People need to listen. All I said in that entire segment was things aren't great internally which i meant to apply to the entire timberwolves franchise which is in an in a and i cited darren wolfson's

comments on a recent podcast he's plugged in there which is in a state of um i don't know an unhappiness a malaise or something windy then proposes the cat trade and And I even said, Wendy, you're just stirring the pot, buddy. I said the words stirring the pot. Cat's not getting traded. Wiggins is a different deal. And there's some stuff going on internally. But all I said was things aren't great internally. I did not mean to suggest Cat's going to get traded.

He is not going to get traded. They're not doing that. I don't believe it. When you say things aren't great internally in Minnesota, that's a little like saying things aren't great in the Trump administration right now. So I just want to throw that out there. I would say things are a lot worse than not going great in Minnesota. It's not great.

There's a lot of tension across like pointing in many directions. There was somebody had a story. I think it was a Minnesota blogger had a whole story about how Tibbs and Scott Layden had this argument and Tibbs threw a computer through a window or something. And then it was like, so someone threw the window and just he threw the computer. So that didn't happen. I don't know who wrote that. I didn't know. I didn't actually realize until right now that someone actually wrote that.

I thought it was like one of those rumors that becomes such a rumor that the team proactively says it didn't happen, even though no one actually wrote it. Someone actually wrote that? It was tweeted as something that they had heard. First of all, if that ever happened, I would pay a lot of money for the video footage of that. Do you think he screamed ice, ice as he threw the computer?

Particularly Tibbs. Oh! Is Tibbs the best coach to throw a computer? Is there a more entertaining coach to throw a computer? Yes. Is there a more entertaining coach? I mean, on some level, if Brad Stevens ever got mad enough to throw a computer, that might be more entertaining. He's too calm.

Brad Stevens is a very calm man. If he actually lost his mind and threw a computer. Yeah, I know. Tibbs is easily and by far the best coach. All right. So you think Towns stays because 1B for this was Phoenix calls Minnesota and says we'll give you the first pick for Towns.

Can I have your pick of anyone? Minnesota doesn't do it. Okay. I say that having not watched much of these prospects, as you know, but Minnesota, Carl Towns with a year left on his rookie deal or whatever is, and even staring at a max is more valuable than the number one pick in the

draft. I agree with you. I agree with you on that. Is Jimmy Butler on Minnesota next year? Yes. So you're running it back. You're the T-Wolves. You're back.

You're just running it back. John Krasinski has had a great piece today about Andrew Wiggins, and I think that's the one that you've got to look at as a possibility for both long-term cat picture, resetting the roster a little bit, alleviating some of the internal

stuff that's going on. Read that piece, and that's the one. But I would say, yeah, the safe bet is always you run it back, right? I mean, Minnesota is good. They made piece. And, you know, that's the one. But I would say, yeah, the safe bet is always you run it back, right? I mean, Minnesota's good. They made the playoffs for the first time since KG. You know, no harm in running it back. Andrew Wiggins as in trading him?

Yeah. Who the hell wants Andrew Wiggins' contract? Somebody always wants somebody's contract. Name them. Name the person. Nobody wants that contract. First of all, you can talk to Kings into anything. want somebody's contract. Name them. Name the person. Nobody wants that contract. That's crazy. You can talk to Kings into anything and Andrew Wiggins is still

only... Is Andrew Wiggins 23, 24? Why did we have to drag the poor Kings fans into this? 23. He just turned 23. You could definitely deal Andrew Wiggins for, I'm going to say, slightly positive value. You could definitely find a.... He's 23. These teams will talk to him. There are six teams who will talk themselves

into Andrew Wiggins for sure. Oh, God. You know, every time I think the NBA might get smarter, there's always like six teams that just defy everything. And it doesn't matter. It's not indefensible to look at Andrew Wiggins at age 23 and say, you know what? I'm betting on that guy. I'm betting. I wouldn't do it. I haven't liked what Andrew Wiggins on court development has been in the

last two years, but it's not insane. Four years, $146 million. It's ugly. It's ugly. You're saying, you're saying like Brooklyn would be like,

we're screwed anyway. Might as well roll the dice with old Andrew here. They're too smart. Brooklyn's too smart? They traded for Alan Crabb for nothing. They could have waited four months to get two first round picks. I didn't like that trade.

I'm tired of hearing how smart these teams are. Why is Brooklyn smart? They don't have one asset I like. Is the D'Angelo Russell trade smart? What was fun about that? Do you think anybody wants D'Angelo Russell right now? His extension talks are going to be quite interesting. I like Karis LeVert, and I will not have you besmirch Karis LeVert.

I think Jared Allen's pretty good. So your defense for Brooklyn is Smart is, I like Karis LeVert. I think that the theory of what they're doing, which is just, we're just going to accumulate all these picks, and we're going to take shots on pedigree guys who, for whatever reason, are available to us. Now, Okafor doesn't count because they didn't really want Okafor. Is generally the only way out of the hole that Danny Age dug for them

and threw their carcass into. No, see, everyone blames Ainge. It was Prokhorov that was the guy who killed them because he completely audibled on what the strategy was when they made that trade. A year later, all of a sudden, he's like, I don't want to pay the luxury tax anymore. Yeah, Paul Pierce goes to the Wizards.

I was at the Grantland annual party. We were all there when Paul Pierce signed with the Wizards. I actually liked the Russell trade. And on the other hand, did not have the intel about, it just seems like from a character standpoint, he might be hopeless. They're hopeful about that. That they can say, well, he's a young dude.

And there's been a lot of success over the years with guys who start out in a really rocky way from a chemistry standpoint, and then kind of mature into something a little more manageable. I mean, even Kyle Lowry, who didn't have one 10th of the bad buzz that Russell has, was somebody that got traded a couple of times because he was an asshole. And I think he even admits it now. But that's why Houston was able to get him because he had a bad reputation. And so that would be the hope with Russell,

but it also makes a lot of sense why the Lakers were so delighted to move on from him. Well, and Mozgov. I mean, that's... Right, and the Mozgov. And they got... The pick they got back ended up working out. I think they threw Portland

one of the great life rafts of this decade by just taking that Alan Crabb contract. If they hadn't done that, four months later, Portland is in a complete panic that they're going to pay $50 million with luxury tax or whatever it is. Actually, let's bring up Portland.

Okay. Is CJ McCollum on the Blazers next year? I'm going to say no. I'm going to say no as well. Again, you're forcing me to, at metaphorical gunpoint, to make these calls. I'm going to say no. I've said before there's going to be crazy stuff that happens in the off season because teams are taxed out and just kind of like unhappy about life and Portland fits that to a tee. So I'll say no. First of all, you are the NBA Spock and nothing

makes me more delighted than putting you in uncomfortable positions where you have to answer yes or no questions. The trade that makes the most sense is McCollum to Philly. And unfortunately, they don't need Markel Fultz back in that trade since they have Dame Lillard. And that has to become a three-teamer at that point. And that's when it becomes complicated.

Now you could argue they just take Fultz back. But, you know, the trade fits like Sarich and Fultz or Fultz in the 10th pick. I don't think Fultz for McCollum straight up is a fair trade. No, no. But that number 10 pick is a really interesting little trade asset.

It's a nice pick. Really interesting. So it's Fultz and 10 go somewhere, McCollum goes to the Sixers, and whatever the third team is gives something to the Blazers, I think is realistic. Now, another one that could work. You better sit down for this one. I'm sitting already.

How about McCollum on Indiana? It's a lot of overlap with Oladipo, but enough shooting to make it work. So how are we making that happen? Miles Turner? What kind of value does Miles Turner have right now in the league? As an upside stretch five

with a ton of potential who honestly if he had been better in that Cleveland series they probably would have won. I don't blame him for it because he's young. But you could also make the case there's never going to be some sort of leap and he's going to always be this tantalizing, talented guy who could be all these things, but he just will never get there.

Wildly variable for exactly what you just said. I think a year ago, his trade value was really high and now it's sort of eye of the beholder. Yeah. I do think he's got trade value though. And I do think if you're Indiana, a team that has over and over again, figured out a way to stay relevant and competitive despite the odds. And now they're not that far away and they have cap space too. You know, that's a team that could make a trade for McCollum and then also sign Clint Capella. All of a sudden, there's like, wow, Indiana's

really, that team's kind of good on paper. The McCollum thing, is there another team we're missing? Denver? No. Denver's going to have some money issues once they max out Jokic. I'll tell you, the McCollum deal that I floated once

and is a favorite among league insiders is McCollum for Drummond. Sort of two teams just exchanging big money contracts and trying to reset themselves. I just think Portland thinks McCollum is way better than Drummond. He is. I don't think they're wrong. And they think Collins is going to be a really good stretch five. So I just don't think they're wrong but they also and they think Collins is going to be a really good stretch five

so I just don't see it I liked what I saw from Collins you know him going to Indiana it's kind of the same problem you have in Portland where if your team is revolving around your two guards can you win the title and we've really only seen it once the 2015 Warriors

with Clay and Curry who I think were the best two guys in that team. Do the bad boys not count? We're going way back. Different league. That team was awesome. But, you know, they won in 89. I don't even think they had an all-NBA player. You know, they were just super-duper deep in a way that you can't really be now.

We agree on McCollum. If you were running Portland, would you keep McCollum and trade Lillard because he has more value? No. Joel Embiid. Oh boy. Is he on the Philadelphia 76?

Would you be shocked? Would you bet $100,000? Would you bet $100,000 at 10-1 odds? You could win a million. You could win a million dollars that he's not on Philly next year, which you did. I don't have Simmons-level money on my friend. How about it's somebody else's $100,000?

Well, then, I mean, he's going to be on Philly. Yes. Yeah, I would. I would. I might even bet $100,000 of my own. That he's on Philly. Yeah. At those odds, I think I would.

I'd have to get some major spousal permission for a wager of this magnitude, and I don't wager on anything ever. But you're offering me a pretty good deal, I think. What about Ben Simmons on Philly next year? Yeah. Okay. Because I can't figure out how LeBron fits with those two guys. I think that everybody, it's, Windhorse talked about it on PTI, and I was relieved somebody else thought that because people just throw these players together

who are really talented, and I'm thinking, like, those are two guys that LeBron has never succeeded with over the 15 year of his career. The big center who clogs the lane and the playmaker perimeter guy who can't shoot. We know that he can't succeed with those guys to the way he wants to succeed, right? Which makes me think Philly's not an option for him.

I think Philly's an option. I do think it's an option, but it ultimately isn't an option. If he's really looking at this and he's like, I want to keep competing with titles, and he uses his little LeBron genius AI brain thing and does the whole Terminator 2 computer process thing on it and looks at it, does he really think he could win a title with those two guys? Well, I mean, I agree that there are fit issues, right?

There were also fit issues with Dwayne Wade, who peak Dwayne Wade is an all-time great player and way better than Ben Simmons is now. Yep. who peak Dwayne Wade is an all-time great player and way better than Ben Simmons is now. So I also just think those are, I don't know what, if you have to surrender nothing but cap space, I don't know what the downside of it is. Now, there is the idea that if Paul George or it takes the same amount of cap space up

or you can trade for Kawhi Leonard into that cap space, giving up real stuff, obviously, for him, that those are better fits for all the reasons you say. If those options are not available to them, and maybe even if they are, I still think the right answer is sort of generally you want LeBron on your team, if possible, because you'll probably make the finals. I think that's the answer every time. I just wonder how that all works. And I think Simmons and Embiid, from everything I've heard, are favored sons with that ownership group and treated like princes all right, now this is our new guy. You guys are over here now. I don't know how that's going to fly. Young dudes, the millennials, man, the millennials take a lot of stuff personally. They like having their back rubbed. Wow.

They like being treated like princes. And LeBron just comes in and it's LeBron's team. I really wonder how that's going to work. I'm not saying I wouldn't do it every time, but I'm just saying, how is that going to work? First of all, Brett Brown would be very excited to have all these problems. So would Jay Wright. Oh. I'm not even going to lie.

They're, they're, I don't even know. I short-circuited you. Yes. I don't even know what the hell I was going to say. Oh, don't think that I don't even know what the hell I was going to say. Oh, oh, don't think that the Sixers haven't taken careful

note of what a disaster Cleveland is internally and has been and said to themselves there is some cost in melodrama at the very least in bringing in LeBron and we are going to weigh that cost against doing

nothing and just re-upping Redick and everything or getting another guy into that cap or whatever. And I still think that the equation will come out in favor of getting LeBron, but don't think they haven't considered that. Yes, Cleveland had to trade half its team because everyone hated each other. And it's been a generally miserable place to be. No, that's not fair. It's been like when they had Fry and they've had good times. Fry and RJ were good culture. It's just like, they're just melodrama every year. They can't be, they're one of these franchises, they can't be a normal team. And some of that, a lot

of that is Dan Gilbert and some of that is LeBron. They just can't, they can't just have a normal season. If you were Joel Embiid, would you want LeBron to come to the Sixers? Sure. He's only going to be here a couple years and we'll make the finals one year and it'll be fun.

Maybe, you know, to your point, there might be... I'm going to say no. I'm going to say he doesn't like this idea. Well, Simmons is the one I could see most of all having some part of his basketball soul say, well, I'm supposed to be. That's the guy everyone compares

me to. That's who I'm trying to be. And now he's, what am I now? It's a lot of red flags. A lot of red flags, Zach Lowe. I don't know. I don't know if I like it. I do like Kawhi to the Sixers. Now we're talking.

But you got to give up stuff. Yeah. Like you don't get them for quote unquote free, which is never free, but you got to give up stuff. Yeah. Like you don't get them for quote unquote free, which is never free, but you got to give up real stuff. Do you buy into the whole Pop will never trade him to a Western Conference team thing? No. I don't either. You know what the Spurs are going to do?

Make the best deal for Kawhi. They're not going to care where he goes. But I do think you could argue Fultz, Sarich, number 10 pick in Covington for Kawhi is about as good of a deal as they're going to get for him. That's a lot to give up. That's a lot to give up. It's a lot to give up, but you got it. Boy, the, the Intel gathering on that deal has to be as complete as any Intel

gathering ever between Kawhi's injury and whatever the hell is going on with Fultz or went on with Fultz slash is going on slash who the hell knows. I'm buying full stock. If you're selling, I'm taking it. What is it even trading anymore? Yeah, it's trading. It's like Snapchat.

It's fine. Okay. We're taking one more break. Hey, if you're like me and you're not so great at planning ahead, I've got some great news. Our friends at hotel tonight, you've heard me rave about them. They have an awesome app that helps you find amazing hotel deals at the last minute.

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Download the Hotel Tonight app. It is free. It's super easy. Just go ahead and do it. Back to Zach. Is there any chance Kawhi is on the Spurs next year? For sure. I would say, I don't know, something sub 50%, but not close to zero.

I say 10. I'd go 25 to 30. 10% chance. I don't see it. Do you think, is there a chance Pop is not the coach of the Spurs next year? I will say no. Okay. A couple more.

Is Kyrie Irving on the Celtics next year? Yes. Is Terry Rozier on the Celtics next year? Yep. I think everyone's on the Celtics next year? Yep. I think everyone's on the Celtics next year. You're bringing them all back. I think Smart takes his qualifying offer because he's going to be depressed by the market and what the Celtics offer him.

Yeah. And so they can get under the tax easily in that scenario. And they just go into, let's see what the team is mode. Let's see who between Hayward and Kyrie is more essential. Maybe they're both essential. Let's see how we look playing five wings and no point guards. Let's see, let's see the whole thing. I'm going to, you know, people accuse me of being a Homer and they're not,

they're not wrong. I've not heard that before. They're not wrong. But if I was a true Homer, I wouldn't make the following statement because I wouldn't betray my sensibilities as the basketball aficionado that I am. It always bothers me when NBA teams, just as a competitive move, don't try to fuck over other teams

with restricted free agent offers. And- But the Nets. Yeah. I think Roger is a restricted free agent and if one of these teams out there

was smart they would they would make a contract that would be really tough for the Celtics to do he's not yet

he's next year oh it's not this summer smart is a restricted free agent I'm so confused by all these options with I he's Roger is extension eligible I'm so confused by all these options with I

he's extension eligible which you are that's what it is okay so only the Celtics can offer him an extension so smart smart is the one I'm thinking of why wouldn't somebody try to fuck them over on smart

okay so all you have to do is find a team with cap room and a desire to pay Marcus Smart let's say, name a price the Celtics wouldn't pay. 14, 15, 16? I don't know. Well, the thing to do would be to make it so that the second year of that contract

would be the highest number of the four years. You could structure where basically go up and go down or however you want to do it. You want to screw the Celtics over, not this coming year, but the year after. Well, remember all the stuff the Nets did with Porter and Crabbe?

They like, you get 50% of your money like upfront. They did everything possible to make those poisonous. It was awesome. Right. So, you know, I think the Celts are probably hoping to get Marcus for something like four years, 40 to 44, I think is fair. See, I think he doesn't take that and takes his qualifying offer instead. Wow. Really? Yeah. I think he says, what's my, his qualifying offer, I'm going to guess off the top of my head is like five and a half. So I'll just take that and the

market will be better next summer because there will be more teams with cap space and I'll be unrestricted. And his qualifying offer is six. That's pretty good. God, the history of teams, of guys taking the qualifying offer is rocky. That'd be good oral history. I can't remember a lot of times that working out.

It always seems like there's an uneasiness that comes with that. And then you can't trade the guy and the guy's mad at the team. You know who else is an interesting qualifying offer candidate? Who? Yusuf Nurkic. I think there'll be a few this summer because the market just isn't going to be there. And the teams aren't going to offer. I mean, like the move for Portland is like, okay here's what you get and with the mid-level exception which many teams will pay you because we're nice we'll pay you two million dollars a

year more than that and i i could see some players saying i'll just take the qualifying offer so when we're talking about this i don't think people fully realize how bad the cap situation is. Because we hear it. But I don't think people fully realize it. Here's who has cap space next year. Now, teams could renounce people and it could get a little easier. But basically,

the Hawks have some. The Kings have a little. The Hawks have the most. The Kings have a little. The Pacers can create most, the Kings have a little, the Pacers can create some and, and create enough room for one guy. The bulls basically don't have a lot. Neither does Phoenix really. And then it just goes on down the line.

It's there's no cap space. Well, the one, the one you didn't say is, is, is Dallas. Dallas can create it in In terms of just unpredictable. Utah can maybe create a little bit,

but I think now won't. This is why I wrote there's just no market for DeMarcus Cousins outside Dallas, and then you have to go into sign and trade world, and the Lakers are obviously out there too. People react like, no, DeMarcus Cousins is a star.

Every team will pay him the maximum. Okay, who? He's a big man coming off an Achilles tear, and all these teams that have cap room. Half the teams you name don't even want to spend their cap room because they're bad. I have a true or false question, not for you, but for the listeners out there.

Just to keep you on your toes. True or false? The Mavericks are paying Harrison Barnes, Wesley Matthews, and Dwight Powell $54 million combined next year. The answer is true. That's a thing that's happening. Now, Dirk will get whatever. They got Dennis Smith and Bray under contract. And they have, I think, the fifth pick in the draft, which will be another six. They have room for like one and a half guys.

So if they wanted to get Boogie, there's a path for Dallas to just say, screw it and try to be good next year. Where you get Boogie on some, you know, incentive-laden whatever contract. You sign another max person, and then you trade that top seven pick for immediate help.

And you're just like, we're back. We're the Dallas Mavericks. Can't be ruled out. Cubes has done stranger things than that, right? I'm going to rule it out. It can't be ruled out. It just can't be ruled out.

I think they can find a middle way where they pretend to go for it next year by just using their cap space but not trading that pick. They need to keep that pick at all costs. By the way, speaking of Dallas, you know who's signing a qualifying offer that did not turn out well for? New Orleans? New Orleans in a while. Didn't work out.

That's what I mean. It never seems to work out. How about this trade? Terry Rozier and the Kings pick to Orlando for the sixth pick. It's too much, right? Why would Boston do that? Okay. The Kings pick could be number two next year.

I know. But it also could be number one and they won't get it. Right. It's fair. Give yourself some certainty. No. So that's too much. We both agree.

That's too much. Terry Rozier and the Memphis pick to Orlando for the sixth pick. That gets a little more interesting. The Memphis pick, I believe, is top eight protected? Next year. And then it's like top five the year after or something like that? Top eight, top six unprotected. So you're getting a first regardless.

You're getting it. It doesn't convert to two seconds like some of these do. Right. And if you're the Celtics, you're basically selling high in that pick because you're guessing that at some point over the next two years, that pick is going to be like seventh or ninth or whatever. And all of a sudden that's when you get it. And we are talking about the team that tweeted congratulating Sheldon Mack, leading them, which would suggest, which would suggest they do need

a point guard. See, I think the Celtics can get creative with Rogier and some of these picks they have if they're fired up about getting into the top five of this draft with somebody or if they are fired up about getting some peace. I don't disagree. Basically parlaying. Because really when Kyrie comes back

and Hayward comes back, I don't think Rogier plays more than 12 minutes a game. They can't. They can't. That's the thing. They do have too many guys. They have too many guys next year. It's a wonderful luxury to have.

Now, you could just say, we'll never, ever play a center anymore. We'll just, all these other minutes, we'll just play Horford at center, and then we'll play a wing at backup center or something, which maybe is unrealistic. But, you know, you could finagle around, but, you know, smart Rozier, Hayward, Tatum,, Tatum, Brown, Kyrie, it's too many guys.

It's just you can't play all of them. If LeBron went to a Texas team this summer, what is the more realistic team for you, San Antonio or Houston? Houston. And this is what you said before going back to the beginning, Like, I don't see a way for them to get better. You know, look, I didn't see Chris Paul going on their team. Like, whatever. Everyone says, I can't get LeBron. They don't have cap space.

It's impossible. Whatever it is, Daryl Morey has seven different pathways already set to get the cap space or to get LeBron somehow, whether it's him opting to do his player option, which no one expected Paul to do. Like it's like the fact that that's been out there for a year and is 100 percent something that the Rockets would obviously be interested in doing. They know how to do it. It might cost them an arm and a leg in terms of draft picks and all that, but like they

know they have a way to do it. Otherwise, it would never be out there. Do you think he's going to spend the whole summer trying to talk Sam Preston to a Ryan Anderson for Carmelo trade? Oh, my God. He's got to just be texting that to him once a week. Especially that. I had blocked it out of my head that there's a fourth Ryan Anderson year. I'm kind of scarred emotionally.

That Thunder situation if PG leaves ain't great I like that you used the qualifier if like he's staying I'd sooner bet my $100,000 on everything you proposed earlier than

Paul George leaving I think he would, if I had to bet I'd bet on him leaving but I'm not going to pretend to have intel other than what everyone else thinks, which is that he's leaving, but what everyone else thinks is not. It's like my favorite thing in NBA stories is according to sources on other teams. That's just

gossip. I don't know. It doesn't mean anything to me. It's called gossip. Let me throw this scenario out at you. The Lakers strike out on everybody. They strike out on LeBron, Paul George, all these guys. Leading to some panic. Leading to the phone call to Sam Presti.

Leading to the, can we talk about Russ? What would it take? Do you, is there a world in which the Lakers panic overpay in a Russell Westbrook trade and Sam Presti fleeces them? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, I agree. That world exists. I agree.

And it also exists for the Clippers, right? I would say for either L.A. team, that world exists. I think it exists much less so for the Clippers. Everything the Clippers have done in the last 18 to 24 months suggests a very well-managed team. That was one of the nicer things you've said on the podcast. I agree with you. I haven't been mean. No, I agree.

That was a real compliment. The reason we're talking about the Clippers is they are sneakily well set up for the next five years. And I don't think you get to that point and then use it all to get Russell Westbrook. Yeah, I agree with that. I'll be really, I, in a weird way, they're the swing team in this draft because the 12th and 13th, I do think you could move up. And I'm not sure why I would, if I was the Clippers, because I think the history of these drafts would say, just take two swings and there's always a Donovan Mitchell waiting

with 12 or 13 and just seems like that's how it works every year. But on the other hand, if they love somebody in the top, I don't know, five or six, and if you're Dallas and you don't love everybody at number five and you can just be like, you're going to give us 12 and 13, we take one of our bad contracts too and flip it that way. I think that's conceivable. I think, I just feel like there's going to be a 12 and 13. We take one of our bad contracts too and flip it that way. I think that's conceivable. I think, I just feel like there's going to be a ton of action this year.

I don't know why. I just, my spidey senses are going off. It's going to be bad. It's going to be good slash bad. I mean, anytime LeBron is a free agent, Vegas Summer League starts earlier this year. Yeah. And like the last time LeBron was a free agent,

A, it started five days later. And B, he was still a free agent when everyone, it started five days later, and B, he was still a free agent when everyone got there and everyone was like, will you please? Can we please? I just want to be in Vegas and talk to people all day. It's going to be a long summer. My favorite is when you take it personally, when the NBA, when the players, when things drag on and it then affects your family time?

Everybody does. No, you take it the most personally. You don't think- You get upset. Like you were upset when the Kyrie thing ignited and then it was done. And then it was like a week where we didn't know if it was going to happen.

You actually get physically upset when this happens. I went downstairs to a bar, to the hotel lobby rather, in Dublin, Ireland on August, I don't even, whatever, two days after the trade had happened or was agreed to. And I was like, honey, I got to go send some text messages, send some emails. Please watch our child try to nap in Dublin for a little while. Didn't go over great. I remember before you joined Grantland when I had to carry kind of the NBA reaction burden

for the site that first year. And I went to London for the Olympics and really banged out a ton of columns and went to everything. Did not spend a lot of time with the family the first couple weeks I was there. Became a handball fan as well. Became a handball fan. Became a handball fan.

I was really into it. And near the end, I had worked on this mailbag that I had written ahead of time. So it was like, this is it. I'm good after this. I have that kind. Now it's good. We're good to go. And then I forget.

It's like five, six hours ahead. Went to bed. nothing had happened. It was like three o'clock London time because I can never get to sleep right. All's quiet in America. And I wake up and I have like 300 emails and texts and Dwight Howard had been traded to the Lakers. And it was like, hey, I got this now.

I'll see you guys later. I was so mad. I was like, hey, I got this now. I'll see you guys later. I was so mad. I was like, really? Of all days? Dwight Howard. Remember when it was a big deal when Dwight Howard got traded? I was going to say that rocked. I mean, the lead up to that was a full year of,

is he going to sign his opt-in? Is he not? Or they put his favorite candy on the plane, so he signed his opt-in. It just never ended. It was a Dwightmare, as people came to call it. You know, you make a lot of Dwight Howard jokes. Not anymore. No, you make a lot. You've taken not as many shots as I've taken them. He said they had my favorite candies on the plane. What am I supposed to do?

You've made farting jokes. Adult human said this. Just want to say in the, in the right side of history conversation, when, when, um, when the NBA gods decide who was on the right side of history, more times you or I sometime the next 70 years, we'll be in some spaceship. Um, you did pick Dwight Howard for an MVP one year. I did happen 2011 MVP. I'd vote for him. I'd stand by it now. That was, that's terrible. Who did you pick? stand by it now. That's terrible. Who did you pick? It's just terrible. It's terrible.

Who did you pick? You should apologize to America. Who did you vote for? Rose? I voted for Derrick Rose. They won 62 games. How'd that work out? He was their whole offense.

It was great. I stand by it. Okay. I stand by it. You voted for the farter, Dwight Howard. The answer probably should have been LeBron. But I actually think Dwight deserved it that year. No, that was, I've written about this before,

but that was a good example of how we needed co-MVPs that year. The MVPs of that year were LeBron and Wade as a combo. And this has happened maybe five or six times over the course of the year. You said teammate co-MVPs, not tied. Yeah, there should be years where we're just like, you know what? There isn't an MVP, but these two guys together were the most impactful players, which maybe is a separate award. But like the 72-73 Lakers was, or the 70, whatever the 69-win Laker team.

West and Will Chamberlain should have been the co-MVPs that year. And they ended up splitting the votes. And I can't remember who won, but it wasn't the Kareem one or somebody. So Steph KD wins every year until they break up this team? Well, Steph won a win this year. I'm saying, okay, yeah, he missed too many games. I'm glad you brought up KD because I do feel like he can do whatever he wants on a basketball court.

It just seems like if they need a basket in this Houston series, you just post him up 14 feet away in the extended left block and he's going to score on whatever Rockets guarding him. It's just the way it's going to play out. Right. I wonder why he hasn't fully done the whole. All right, guys,

it's time. This is my team though. It's like, it's time this is my team now it's like there's still a little Curry KD I don't want to say uneasiness but

oh stop stop no no now you're stirring the pot I'm not stirring the pot I'm not stirring the pot there's still a little I just want to see KD

just be like guys it's over here this is where the title is right here let's stop worrying about here. This is where the title is, right here. Let's stop worrying about getting Curry going. We win the title when the ball goes through me. Well, he was the finals MVP last year.

I know. Exactly. And he did score 75 points combined in games one and two of this series. I know. I'm with you. I think he could score every time he wants against Houston. He's one of those guys, when he ISOs and posts up and shoots a 20-footer, we remember the makes because they look so effortless,

and you kind of forget that half of them don't go in. I'm not talking about the 20-footers. I'm talking about the 14-footers, like that spin move he did last night on Ariza when he went baseline. I just don't see any way anybody on that team can stop him. They really need a basket. He misses sometimes. That's why I thought what the game changer last night was his assist.

When he got ISO'd, he drove to pass. And it's not just that he's going to get other guys going. It's that maybe he'll get layups. Yeah. That, to me, that's the best version of KD when he mixes in like the 20, 18 footers, 15 footers, they're not guardable. When you mix in some drives. We're talking about the same thing because once he sets those up,

he's such a good passer and such a good basketball player that he usually makes the right decisions. Like he has games. There was a game last week when he took, maybe it was game one, he took like 27 shots, but I didn't feel like he was selfish. I actually just felt like he was making the right basketball decisions throughout the game and the game just decided that he should take that many shots. So he did, but he'll have other games where you can't double you can't double him. He's, he's, he always just makes the right play. I really, I really like how he, I feel like out of anyone we have out of the

best players in the league, him and Davis are probably the two that you could put on any team and they would kind of figure out how to be good no matter who the teammates were. You know, a lot of these other guys, it's like, we have to do this so I'm good. That's the one thing. I would love to see LeBron in a situation at some point in his career at the tail end

here where he's fitting into what the infrastructure already is. And that'll happen when he's older, right? You would think. That mean, that's why people think Philly is interesting. If he reinvents himself on that Philly team,

that would be a really great last act for him. It'd be fun to watch. You don't think Paul George, Kawhi, LeBron, Lakers? It's in play. Not all three of them. I guess there's probably a pathway where you get all three of them,

but it sounds like you need a sub. I feel like you've lost energy. We got to go. No, I just, I, it's simple. The Lakers.

We'll see it. All these things will be answered, you know, for us. And, and as you said, we've, we've,

we've pitched 19,000 imaginary trades, most of which are plausible because this summer is going to be crazy. John Schumann just tweeted, by the way, he thinks, he thinks Baines is starting to. Ah, so maybe I'll be wrong. The other weird thing because this summer is going to be crazy. John Schumann just tweeted, by the way, he thinks Baines is starting too. So maybe I'll be wrong. The other weird thing about this summer is it seems like the draft's going to be goofy.

And I know you don't follow the draft and you get into it late, but this is one of those drafts where nobody can even agree who the number one pick is. And now there was stuff today about the second and third teams in the draft might not like Luka and might want to just take an American frontcourt guy. That was one of the tweets that was out there. Luka might drop to four. And just let me tell you something. First of all, him not going first is going to be ridiculous in five years.

But if he drops to four, we're now talking about like an NBA catastrophe. Is this the strongest? So you would take him number one, no brainer. Is this the strongest you felt about going out on that limb since KD? No. Okay. You were, you were. I saw way more of KD. Okay. No, there's been times I went big on Curry. That one drove me crazy. I couldn't believe the Curry thing. This wasn't a controversial opinion, but I loved Anthony Davis and I thought he was going to be unbelievable. I think sometimes you know with these guys

and Luka I just think is like special. I love that people are picking him apart. I like that you're using his first name because you're not confident yet. Didn't go on last name. Want to go over it? Donchich. Donchich.

I don't want to say the ch is my problem. I always want to say the s. I may be saying it wrong because there's a ch, a t, and there's so many different variations of sounds that it's aggravating. But we're all going to have to get used to it. As long as you don't do the hard K, I'm going to give you, we're all going to be fine.

Like Vucevic, can't do that. Yeah. You know, the Kings fans got mad at me because I did a joke tweet about how Lucas had that, that quote about, he's not positive.

He's going to even come to the NBA this year. And I did that tweet about how Lucas had that, that quote about, he's not positive. He's going to even come to the NBA this year. And I did that tweet about, um, basically like translation don't take me Sacramento and the Kings fans get bad. Like Riley, who, who's been with us since Grantland, who's one of our most beloved employees, huge Kings fan, really gets upset when people make Kings jokes. Cause he thinks they're jokes about him. And it's like, we all feel bad for the Kings fans. We all love the Kings fans.

Your franchise is running competently and has been for the last 13 to 15 years. And that's why players don't want to, it's nothing to do with the city or the fans or any of that. It's players don't want to go to incompetent franchises. That's been the biggest thing that's changed over the last 10 years. The players are smart enough to look at the situation and go, wow, that seems horrible. I just hope that team doesn't know what they're doing. I feel like the players are more sophisticated as fans.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Well, I mean, look, the Kings have been every, I mean, the Kings have, how many players have the Kings offered more money than they got otherwise? And they're like, yeah, no, we're just using who's leveraged. We actually don't have any real interest in playing for me to tell about the Kings. Would you like me to tell the story about how they've had a wonderful 15 years and every trade they made was great? And their record of selecting in the top eight of the draft has produced a bounty of hits? Okay.

I don't know what else you want me to say. It's like it is what it is. They've been a joke. Oh, I promised to bring this. I said on Twitter I was going to bring this up about the Justice Winslow thing because I don't think people fully understand. The Celtics thought they had a deal for

the fourth pick to move up that year. The pick that ended up being Porzingis. And it was like the Knicks, the Hornets, they were going to get a second pick. It was like a four-team deal and it actually seemed like it was going to happen. And I forget who screwed it up, but it ended up not happening.

Orlando went five with his own. Yeah. And just immediately took them. But Danny had this bounty of picks and six, seven, eight, nine, 10 offered the same bounty to each team.

The first team was Sacramento who they could, they couldn't even figure out who the right person was to get on the phone. But it was basically like they had a chance to get the 15th pick. I think they had the 16th pick. And then it was going to be the Brooklyn pick that ended up being Jalen Brown. And like one more future protected pick. All to move up to take Justice Winslow, who Danny had become completely enamored with. So it didn't work out with the Kings.

Detroit said no. I forget, seven? I don't think Denver, they wanted Moutier, so they were never really into it. It was six, eight, and then nine was the Hornets. And that was the one they thought was going to happen. And they were waiting on Jordan and it was back and forth.

And then Jordan just, they couldn't get it together and Jordan ended up taking Kaminsky. And they were waiting on Jordan and it was back and forth. And then Jordan just, they couldn't get it together. And Jordan ended up taking Kaminsky. And then they called Riley and Riley laughed at them and hung up. And they had this bounty. And this is the thing. I think Danny Ainge has been the best GM of the century, but he got really lucky twice. He got lucky that day and he got lucky with Robert Swift because they were ready to give up Al Jefferson and next year's number one for Robert Swift. And Seattle said, no, we're sticking with Robert Swift because they were ready to give up Al Jefferson and next year's number one for Robert Swift. And Seattle said, no, we're sticking with Robert Swift. And that led to KG in the 08 title.

Even the best GMs fuck up. No one does it. No one does it without luck. I mean, everything, everything, everything of the last 20 years in San Antonio stems from tanking and winning the Tim Duncan lottery. Everything we,

there is the alternative history of if the lottery goes the other way is, uh, just a complete blank slate. Well, and there was another member that one year they were going to trade Tony Parker, like 2010 range for the fifth pick. Forget what draft it was.

And then upholding off. And they ended up holding off. And then he became an all NBA guy for consecutive years and they make the finals in 13 and 14. But a lot of times it's the trade you don't make that really saves your ass. But like even how the Celtics ended up, they get Isaiah in this weird situation that Phoenix had found themselves in.

They basically steal Isaiah, but they stole him because of this pick they got because LeBron ended up going from Miami to Cleveland, right? They get this random pick. That's the pick they're able to throw to Isaiah, and this whole chain of events that leads to Kyrie, which ends up hurting Cleveland. You never know, Zach Lowe. You never know.

What are you working on? You going to the whole finals? I'm debating it. Last year, I had to skip games one and two because I had a big family event on the day in between. And I actually, it made me sane. I mean, I love the finals, but when that Cleveland-Golden State one went seven, it was 22 straight days on the road.

I wasn't smart enough to schedule a flight back to New York because I just wasn't experienced enough then. And to your point earlier, I ended up sort of like I was kind of rooting for the series to be over and I didn't experience it with the joy that I should have. And missing the first two games. It slices a week off the trip and just sort of, it made me sane. Like I didn't care if it went seven anymore. Cause there was just a, there was a hard ceiling on how long I could be away. I could see, I could see the light at the end of the tunnels. I might do that again. Well, now I'm going to be a game five in Boston. Uh, that's my next game. You're going Wednesday. Yeah. I'm going

to be there. Are you really? How could I miss that one? I'm going to sit next to my dad, LeBron. Maybe we can make plans to hang out again, and if the Celtics lose, you can cancel them in a fit of rage. No. I'm absolutely hanging out with you. I forgot to mention this to you about that game we went to, Game 4 Philly. I don't know if you felt this in the crowd,

but I felt like unconditional love for Joel Embiid. You did mention this, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unconditional. He is clearly their favorite person. And I just thought that was interesting. I tucked that one away. If I'm Ben Simmons, I noticed that. He's a more likable personality

outwardly. They just love that dude. Yeah, they just fucking love him. He's gone through so much injury stuff and everyone was just so excited to see him play. Like he hadn't played, the level of excitement was so high. And it's interesting

because people around the team say he's actually kind of introverted away from the floor and that this sort of cocky trash talker, it kind of, it surprises them that that's his game persona.

My fear as a Celtics fan is that he spends the summer getting in phenomenal shape. Well, I think you should, I think you should fear that. I think that's a very, that's like being scared of like sharks after the report of sharks in the water.

Like he's going to do that. That's going to happen. My hope as a Celtics fan is that he comes out over the next three weeks and says, if we try to sign LeBron, I'm out of here. What you're hoping to do is come to Vegas for summer league and see Joel like multiple nights at four in the morning. Just get in his head. I just want to get in his head. Well, you just want to see him out late at the Cosmo. That's what you want. Oh no, but I want to see him out. That would be great. But then also I want to tell him like, he realized that they signed LeBron, so that could be your team anymore.

Just plant some stuff in his head. That's almost tampering. It's almost tampering. Why tampering? I'm not involved with the team. Just trying to help out a young kid who deserves to have his own team. Zach Lowe, as always, a pleasure. The home and home is complete.

Yes. Say hi to all the people in whatever ESPN studio you're in. I will see you at game five. Talk to you later. All right. All right. Thanks to ZipRecruiter. Don't forget to go to ZipRecruiter.com slash BS. Thanks to the Shack House podcast presented by Callaway.

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Get Gillette performance delivered to your door. Find Gillette 5 and all their other great stuff at GilletteOnDemand.com. Next time you hear me, I'll be in Boston, Massachusetts. Go Celtics. Next time you hear me, I'll be in Boston, Massachusetts. Go Celtics. On the wayside I'm a bruised son Never lost it I don't have to ever forget