The Bill Simmons Podcast - Winning QBs and Football Nerds With Mina Kimes, Plus Robert Redford’s Incredible Career With Brian Koppelman

Episode Date: September 16, 2025

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Mina Kimes to discuss various NFL topics two weeks into the season and some television shows (3:01). Then, Brian Koppelman joins the pod to remember the late movie star Robert Redford (01:08:01). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Mina Kimes and Brian Koppelman Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Steve Ceruti The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by Fandul Sportsbook. We are also brought to you by the Ringer podcast network where I put up a new rewatchables. We did. What do we do? Oh, Tin Cup. Yeah. It was me and Joe House and Craig Horlebeck. We taped it last month.

We dressed like golfers. My buddy Jacko was in town. We made him the executive producer. And he had a mic. He was chiming in. Great times all around. Really fun movie. It's aged nicely.

I still can't believe the ending in the theater when it happened. It was just like, why did they end the movie this way? And now 30 years later, kind of like it. Anyway, you can find that on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel or as a video podcast on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Prestige TV. I'm on there talking about Task every week with Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney as well. If you like that show and you should because if you're watching this podcast,

you probably like television and this is a very good television show. So you can find me on there. Coming up on this podcast, old friend Mina Kimes dropped by to talk a lot of different NFL subplots as we have finished two weeks of the NFL season. And then Robert Redford died today. Unbelievable. So I got Brian Koppelman, another longtime friend, to talk about his career and some of the lessons from it.

So that's the podcast today. We're going to take a break. And then we're going to Pearl Jam and then Minokon. NFL next it's the bill Simmons podcast presented by Fando and the NFL is back and thank God Fando has everything they got an awesome app they have

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Mina Kimes is on the West Coast. We got TV Mina today because she's doing TV later. We were texting last night. I was groggy watching two Monday night football games in a row. Raiders Chargers are going on forever. Gino is just sailing passes all over the place. And we were texting. And I was like, we should do a pod.

We haven't done a pod in a while. Good to see you. Hope all as well. Everything good? You know, aside from Gino having a bit of a meltdown It's kind of brave for me to come on By the way, after a Gino clunker

We had a support group meeting This morning, Stephen Ruiz called it Everybody was in attendance We've all agreed to settle on the Chargers defense as elite defense I can't get there with that one I just think Gino does that Once a year, twice a year

You just kind of know it's like a child melting down in an airplane You just kind of know it's going to happen at some point. The weirdest part for me was the misses, because like the interceptions, you know, there's an arm punt and he's always going to attempt tight window throws. Sometimes he shouldn't. But the misses downfield, there were a few of them, were pretty uncharacteristic.

I really do think the charge of defense is late, though. Are you not? I was joking about the excuse, but are you not there yet with them? No, I thought they showed what they needed to show yesterday. But I thought Gino left a bunch of stuff on the table, especially in the second half. Like he had Bowers. When they were driving, it seemed to at least that we needed backdoor cover,

he had Bowers over the middle a couple of times. He was sailing balls high, throwing balls into triple coverage. It was just, you live through this as a Seahawks fan. This is just kind of what he does. And I think maybe their destiny is just twice this year they're going to beat a really good team.

They're going to have a game like last week against the Pats, and then they're just going to have stinkers and they're going to be all over the place. A little bit of salty after watching the Pats get beat down by him. No, I think you're, right. I also think what really jumped out is if Bowers isn't 100% and he's clearly not, they just do not have the horses at wide receiver to compete as much as I love Jacoby Myers.

And especially with the quarterback, Legino, who's going to give your receiver a chance in one-on-ones, it just felt like the receivers were not winning against, again, an exceptionally well-coached and talented charges secondary. I'm going to whisper this because it's not a take. Gentie seems small in that game yesterday. And I know that's part of the package and he's a little guy. We've seen a lot of little guys succeed. But, you know, that charger is a big physical defense. And it just, it was notable.

I don't know. I'm not going to overreact to it yet. I am going to overreact to a couple of the topics that we have. I sent you some questions. I'm excited to hit some of these, especially the last one. But as the queen of the football nerds, I think that's your official title. What is the nerdiest football nerd thing percolating right now that's bringing out your full football nerd two weeks in?

This isn't actually that nerdy per se, but a thing that I am obsessed with, and Dan Rolovsky and I talked about this before the season, we did like an offensive trend pod, is just the number of teams that are almost measuring in two tight-end offenses. Right now, just through the first two weeks of the season, And offenses have used too tight as 12 personnel, 25% of the time, which is the highest ever.

Like, that's a historic rate. Even five, six years ago, it was way less than that. And I think there's like a number of reasons for that. But it's like the really good teams as well, right? Green Bay with Tucker Kraft. Obviously, the Ravens are a good example. Arizona has Trey McBride, Bowers, when he's healthy. So there's really, really good tight ends now.

But I also think it's a product of just how defense has gone over the last 10. years or so, getting lighter, playing more sub-packages. So offenses, this is kind of part of offense is pushing back. And it's been fun to watch because I think these tight ends are really good, really, really talented. Do you think that's why it, I haven't seen the numbers one way or the other, but do you think this is why scoring feels down a little bit, even though offense seems as competent as ever?

Because we have more 12 stuff and longer drives versus like the explosive stuff. I don't know if scoring is down, but as far as like the explosives. thing. That's like a multi-year trend for sure. I mean, I mentioned the Chargers. I think that's kind of, they're kind of a good microcosm for why that might be happening or why defenses have gotten so good at limiting explosives. I mean, through two games, chargers are allowing three air yards per attempt, which is, granted, you know, the Chiefs, but as you saw week one, the Raiders can bomb it. And they just kept everything in front of them. They tackle so well. They communicate so well and like the best defenses, the chargers, the Packers, the Eagles, I think you saw them

bounced back. They're just really good at keeping everything in front of them and tackling that way. Yeah. Well, the other thing with the 12 personnel I've noticed, you mentioned a bunch of tight ends when you were listing the good ones and we have a lot of good ones. And we also have a lot of good second tier, good tight ends. I like that guy in the Jaguar is strange. I think he's good. It feels like there's like 12 of those guys. And he can block too. So that's the other about the 12 personnel. It really only works. So if you're going against these lighter body defenses and who don't have, you know, they've gone in that direction over the last few years to stop high-powered passing attacks. This goes back to the pats and them changing football in that way.

If you want to be able to take advantage of mismatches, you really do have to at least be a threat to run. So you have to have at least one tight end who can block so that when you're on the field, if defenses come out lights, cool, we're going to use our big guys and just run the ball down your throats in Nicol or Dime, right? Strange as one of them was. Like, he can block. You're already seeing that Kraft in Green Bay is another great example of that. Such a good blocker. He's like such a throwback tight end to me. I love him. You're seeing a few of those guys around the league right now. And this year, I mean, good God, Tyler Warren, have you been watching? Oh, it's unbelievable. I think if you're just redoing the draft or criticizing the Hunter thing is, I think has a chance to be a

a real disaster just for what they gave up on him. I'm not saying where he went in the draft as much as all the assets they gave up. But Chicago, not taking Tyler Warren, when people for most of the college football season then leading him to the draft process were like, Tyler Warren, he's going to be fucking awesome. He's the best tight end. And then there was this weird late surge from Loveland. And then the Bears take Loveland and he falls to the Colts at 14, which is like him

falling in 14 and like Bucca falling in 19 feels like a man. miracle now. But Warren's just like a beast. Jesus. Warren like to you're completely right. I think everybody kind of overthought it. And I also think he passes the could a person who's never watched football put on a game and immediately say that's the best player on the field watching him in college? Because he just took over games and did everything. Obviously there was wild catting, yards after the catch. He often was the entire offense. And in retrospect, it does feel a little silly that the guy, he took over games against elite competition. Of course, he's awesome. But yeah, I think people, I'm not out on Loveland entirely. I don't think he's even like top 10

and the reasons why that offense is struggling right now. But yeah, Tyler Warren just looks like a superstar to me. I did a lot of work on him when I threw myself into the draft, casual college football fan bill. But I think in the Pats might trade back like two, three spots. Yeah. And then we're going to be in that Mason Graham, Tyler Warren thing. And I was like, If we got this guy, this guy is very grokish. I would never compare anyone and just say that's the next gronk because there will never be another gronk. But there was some gronk vicinity stuff he was doing. It's like, cool, it's had to be delighted.

He's like perfect for them. He looks amazing. Are you feeling better about missing out on Hunter? You talked about Hunter and getting Will Campbell through two weeks of the season? I want to Carter. I think Carter was the prize. Yeah, all right. Yeah, I would have, uh,

I never, the Hunter thing, I don't like things that I haven't seen before, just in anything, in any capacity, in life, like technology, when there's some like new car that came out or some new iPhone that they've created out of thin air. I'm like, I kind of want to see it work before I know it's going to, it's a beast on football games. You just, I'm saying Hunter, who did this in college, is now going to do this in the pros for 17 games a year against the biggest, strongest, best athletes we have in the world. It was just a little dubious. The thing that really, I feel like maybe was underplayed too during the offseason was most NFL players were dubious of it. Like there were all these quotes from actual players on both sides of the ball who were kind of skeptical of it. And it's way too early, obviously, to come up. But he has not been made the impact you would have liked to see from a guy drafted that high. And you do wonder if the demands on him are too much at this point in his career.

I think it's a completely legitimate question. On our ringer fantasy football show, the guys were joking that he's expensive Wondale Robinson and then decided it was actually an insult to Wondale Robinson because Wanda Robinson was really good this last week. And he was like if Travis Hunter could be as good as Wondell Robinson. I think the prototype for me, because when the Pats were in the Siddellman in the mid-2000s,

they were using him as like this nickel dime back and then as a receiver. And he was playing both sides. but there was less responsibility on the defense. And I think that's kind of where this would have to go, where you're basically just covering slack eyes or you're in playing a zone in one area on one side and then you're just doing a receiver stuff.

It never made sense to me that somebody would just play a little bit of corner. I actually thought the reverse made more sense, right? Like just these full-time corner with like a little receiver? Yeah, you bring him in on maybe like for big plays or in the red zone or on screens, if that's what you want to use the way you want to use him. But I thought, like, it's so hard to play cornerback in the NFL. You have to study so many things, not just scheme, but like individual players' tendencies. It's tricky.

So, yeah, it might look better much later on than it does earlier. And I think that's completely within the realm of possibility for Travis Hunter. Well, after he probably looked at the king of the hospital balls, Trevor Lawrence, for a couple months, he's probably like, I should play defense. Defense looks great. I don't have to go across the middle with some ball selling. over my head and two safeties targeting me. One of your other questions kind of hit on the divisive wallet, you set it up. Lawrence isn't even divisive at this point, though, right?

It feels like people are pretty critical of him. He deserves all the criticism. Just play well and do well in the red zone. Just fix those two things. Don't sail balls in your traffic and hurt your receivers and don't screw up in the red zone. I'm going to give you a part. I think I count as a partial nerd. Yeah, of course.

I was doing a lot of DVOA stuff back in the day. I was having Aaron shots on the pod. I think this kickoffs thing is nuts. And I don't know how nerdy of a topic of this or just a football thing, but it feels like if 52-year-old Belichick was coached right now, not North Carolina near the tail-in dating a 26-year-old Belichick, I think he would have spent so much time on this kickoff thing and felt like this was the greatest inefficiency to exploit.

We're seeing kickoff returns all the time. We're seeing the way the way people actually kick the ball off, like with these angles and stuff. I just think he would have absolutely loved it. And I think it's had a dramatic difference. Like somebody kicked the ball in the end zone last night in the first game. And it was like the ball goes out to the 35. It's like the 35.

Like that's just kick it out of bounds and put it in the 40 at that point. But I was surprised how impactful it was. What about you? It's completely impactful. You're getting way more returns, which is. It was interesting how much just that five-yard tweak affected the return rate, right? Because last year, a lot of coaches were like, screw it, let's just kick in the end zone. And this year, you know, 35 is just two.

It's just such a difference. It's just five yards, but there's such a difference, especially with these kickers, right, who are banging it from 60 right now. You don't even have to go that far to put up points on the board. Yeah, Dallas is in fieldwork position with one first down. That was crazy when they ran the draw to just set him up for six. Oh, my God. I've never seen anything like that.

Wait, wait. The Javante to the left for four yards. Back to the kickoff, though. Are you pro or are you aligned with the president here who's very, he seems very upset about the kickoff? He was, he called, what did he call it? Sissy football? Yeah, which is not actually, uh, dare I have an opinion on this. You're seeing more collisions and more actions.

So it's not more. You can say it's weird, but it's certainly not... Yeah, Sissy is not the... Yeah, I wouldn't have used that phrase. But I think they overdid it. And next year, though, unwind it back. But I think it's too much of an advantage now. But I like the spirit of it.

I thought it sucked watching kickoffs. It wasn't fun. It was like, oh, cool. The guy downed in the end zone again. Now it's... Now you don't want to miss it. You don't want to go to the bathroom if there's going to be a kickoff,

especially with certain teams. But I think just taking a thing, to the 35 is at that point here's the thing this is where the larry david rule of let's just get rid of field goal kickers would make this more interesting if we had the kickoff roll combined with no field goals for the first three quarters of the game or something then it's like okay they started 35 but they still have to go 65 to score now i'm a little more now the balance feels better but they'll never do that i feel like in 10 years not even 20 they're going to look back people who started watching football now or even recently

and there'll be a disbelief that it was ever done the other way, that it was just a, you know, touchback city. I actually like field goals. I think it gets maligned because it's not really football and it's soccer players and whatever and how many teams have been felled by, you know, being great teams that have by kickers. But I think it adds like a level of drama. It's one of the many things that has a level of drama to NFL games that

is kind of unmatched. What if I gave you a limit you could only kick four field goals in a game. That I don't. That would be so funny to watch the amount of mistakes that coaches managing that. Just trying to figure it out or setting up a field goal and not realize they already passed the limit for it. I was thinking about that with the Colts game.

That would have been a fun wrinkle. I was like, well, they can't kick their fifth because they've already kicked four. So they're going to have to go for this. That's more fun. When would you use up your field goals? I actually like that idea. Bonus topic.

I didn't send this one to you. boy. It just became a story today. And I always judge it by if I'm getting texts about something from random people in my life, then that must mean something's happening. Tom Brady is this cheating that he's in the Fox booth. But then also, you've done these games. I've done the basketball version of it where you get to meet the coach and talk about the players. It's a little overrated. It's not like they're like, here's her game plan. It's more stuff like, we really like Tucker craft. He's been a pleasant surprise. It's not, here's our game plan. But what do you think of Tom Brady being able to do this? I am a little surprised by how upset people are about the

competitive integrity side of it. Yeah. Because of what you said. So obviously, Precise gives it very different. But I was kind of asked, I asked Dan last night, like, so have you ever really gotten something in a production meeting where you felt like, whoa, I can't believe they're telling us this? And no, you're right. It's pretty mundane stuff. So I don't feel like, he's compromising, like he has a fair advantage for his team. I think if anyone should be bothered by it, I suppose it would be the perception of bias in the boost, maybe from a media perspective.

If you feel like, if anything, I think he's probably going to go out of his way to be nice to divisional opponents when he's calling games. That would be my guess. But yeah, I don't really see the edge. I think it bothers people because it not because of the substance of it, but because of the appearance of just like, oh, he's above the rules, right? Like, of course, Tom Brady gets allowed to do it.

I don't think the actual substance of it is that bad. I agree with you. I remember I did, I announced a Lakers game when Mike D. Antonio was the coach. And it's not like he was telling us a lot. But what you do get is the vibe of the coach about his team because they feel more comfortable, right? You're coming to their space. And he didn't, his team wasn't good. He couldn't have been more candid about that off the record.

So you just kind of absorb that and be like, he doesn't think his team's very good. But then if they mention a player, they're like, I'm really excited about this guy. He's made big strides. You're like, okay, you file that away. And then when you're talking about the game, you're like, Mike. And that's how you hear that. When we talked to Mike before, he told us he really liked how so-and-so was playing, you're not getting, they might tell you one thing.

Like Collins-Orth will be like, they told us they were going to try that before the game, right? Some sort of double pass or something. Yeah, right. Other than that, they're not. give you a game strategy, like we think we can throw in the chargers over the middle. They're never telling an announcer that. How often does they really like this guy from the

summer, like, pan out to, I feel like. Well, with the Pats with Booty, they were doing that all summer. And then, yeah, then he actually like, they throw to him and he makes plays. So that wasn't a lie. Yeah, they kept telling me,

not they, anyone in the Patriots, but my friends who cover that team kept saying he's the ex receiver and this offense. And I was really skeptical of it, but through two weeks, he definitely looks like the ex-receiver. I thought he caught like a back-shoulder ball in this last game was really impressive. Well, the thing with him was he was a first-round pick for a while,

and then he had some off-the-field stuff, and it knocked him down. And a lot of times in football, those guys, somebody takes a flyer on him, you keep your fingers crossed. Then there's like the Jalen Carter situation where they just fall a couple picks. But for the most part, it's a Jack Jones thing

where the guy starts just bouncing around. But they actually seem like they might. I'd have looked out with him. All right. So we both agree, not a big deal of this Tom Brady thing. Yeah, I get why people don't like it. I just am not that worked up

about the competitive part of it. How excited can I be for Drake May right now, two games in the season on a scale of 1 to 10? Do we make it 20 minutes before you brought up? We were going to do a break. I thought this would be a quick appetizer for the bigger topic we have. He looked really good this weekend.

the Miami Dolphins tax or I guess benefit whatever the opposite of attacks is is real that defense is god awful yeah they can pass rush

on third and eight that's about it it's weird how bad the pass rush is because that was supposed to be the good part of the team right we knew that they had a horrible

secondary but like the pass rush was supposed to be good he made some really impressive throws in this game the throw to Stevenson on third down

one of the best throws of his career just on the money By the way, amazing catch, too. Steve isn't pretty good. I was really encouraged watching the offense just as a whole, not just May, because I felt like week one against the Raiders.

It didn't feel like they didn't quite have an identity and they weren't, Josh McDaniels, right? And him kind of feeling each other out. It was, I thought, too much on May's shoulders. This one, it felt like, okay, we're really building the play action, passing attack down. We've got the power running game

that has been kind of a McDaniels hallmark. and May was hitting almost everything off of it. So I think that marriage is going to be key to whether or not this works out. I am lower on the pads than you. I think that past defense is pretty concerning to me. Well, we don't have all our guys yet, Nina. Yeah, no Christian Gonzalez is pretty massive. Not only no Christian Gonzalez, no word on Christian Gonzalez.

What's up with that? I don't know. That one stuck up on me. I didn't even, the season started and it was like, Christian Gonzalez isn't playing. Is he in Massachusetts? Is he in America? Where is he? He got hurt end of July, yeah. But that's, we've seen some cornerbacks go down this year.

I mean, the bears, the bears are in a situation right now. It's still going. All right, we're going to take quick break and then have a big QB thing for you. I love it. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought you by Fandall football fans. Every NFL Thursday is your chance to hit the jackpot on Fandall. Because with Fandall's Thursday touchdown jackpot, you can win a share of $2 million of bonus bets this.

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Call 1888-78-9-777 or visit ccppg.org slash chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by NFL Sunday ticket. My friend, NFL Sundays are back. You won't want to miss the action. NFL Sunday ticket in YouTube TV, another friend of mine, lets you catch every game, every Sunday, all in one place. and now get NFL Sunday ticket month to month and cancel anytime

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and content restrictions apply commercial use excluded, renews every month during the 20, 25 regular season, cancel anytime. All right, QB appetizer question. Why can't we admit that Josh and Lamar, the two best regular season quarterbacks that we have. Why are we still holding on to this Mahomes thing when it's three long balls over people's heads

and they're scoring 21 points a game now for this will be year three? I think with Mahomes it feels like trying to catch a falling knife where nobody wants to like just completely miss it, right? The timing of it. And also it is so obvious that his circumstances are so much worse. I know he overthrew a couple

deep balls and he has not been connecting that well the thing about deep balls though is like it requires a lot pass protection has to hold up

the guy has to be in the right place he's throwing it Bill it's Tyquan Thornton is their number one deep threat as a They have two guys to be waived

yeah so there's your answer it's Tyquan Thornton I mean it's just And I, Josh and Lamar are the two-best scored backs in football right now. I don't disagree with you. I'm just trying to answer your question. Those guys both have dominant rushing attacks and really good offensive lines.

And they don't have world beaters, but they have good pass-catching options. Yeah. I mean, Mahomes is like, where would you rank his situation right now as a quarterback around the NFL, everything? Run game, offensive line, skill players. I know, but Brady was in this situation, six years in his career, in his prime. There it is. it's true we had the famous

Roshay Caldwell year Rishay Caldwell Jbar Gaffney with Benjamin Watson as the tight end like it was that was the word he almost won the Super Bowl

that year with that Caldwell is the one who had a weird crime right am I miss remembering that yeah very possible well his big crime was the AFC title game for Pat's fans

but okay but it was bad last year and he went to the goddamn Super Bowl That's why nobody wants to call it on Mahomes Because last year we were calling it And he freaking beat the

Went to the end I just think there's two different conversations One is who would you want for one game or one quarter And then one is who would you want for a season And at this point He's just I don't even I mean it's Alan and Lamar for MVP And Jordan Love if they win 14 to 15 games

Herbert as like a dark horse now But I don't see a scenario Mahomes is going to be in that conversation with the team he has. If they, do you, does any part of you believe if Mahomes was on those other two teams that those offenses wouldn't be dominant? Well, so this is a great question because this is one of my MVP things that I do for MBA where if you just flip the guys, what happens? If Allen was on the chiefs, they would not be worse.

I'll just say that. And I think there's some stuff that would happen, at least for the regular city, it would not be worse. Lamara is an interesting one because, you know, they have this amazing running situation with the line and with Henry. I think they know what their offense is with him completely.

So if you just like transferred that, I think it would be a little clumsy. But I just think Josh is the best guy in the league. And this is why I picked them in the Super Bowl. I can't believe I bet against them last week with fucking Jets. I'm still mad at myself. But I think he's going to get one. I just really, not to do

like shitty sports content, but I just think he's going to get when he's too good. You know, it's like, it's like Yoke and Giannis in the NBA. Like, I don't see how he doesn't win a Super Bowl at some point. I think the Bills and the Ravens are just so in a tier on their own right now and the AFC. So you could be either of those guys and it would be completely believable to me. I just think with the Holmes, like, okay.

So I, look, the other question I asked, who's got it worse? Which one? A quarterback. Tell me which quarterback is in a worse situation right now in terms of like the infrastructure rather. But as part of that infrastructure, though, you have to count in.

I've had the same offense for eight years. I've had the same coaching situation and the same everything. Like that matters a little bit. There's some sort of stability with it. Is the run game good? I mean, I would not slander Andy Reid. He is still one of the best coaches in the NFL. But like, let me let me kind of dumb it down.

Is there an offense that's less pleasant to watch right now? No, only the Eagles, just because the Eagles actually have some talent. It's funny, though, that he's replicating this weird stretch of Brady's career where he was so good that they just felt like they could throw away the talent at all these, you know, seemingly important offensive positions. And, like, their running backs are terrible. There's not a single running back that you think can even bust the 10-yard run at this point. that's if I had to criticize them for like a roster perspective that would that's the one thing that jumps out to me because you know we can't kind of talk about both sides of both sides of our mouth pardon me and criticize the Bengals for not investing at all in their offensive line and paying these two great receivers but then also say well the chiefs chose to focus on the trenches and not receiver and not their skill players you know that it's a different strategy the running back thing though to me like you can get you can find a cool running back in the fifth round right like why not

not try. Yeah. Harder in the mid-rounds, I would have drafted someone. I don't know. It looks, the whole run game right now looks so bad.

Well, he's an interesting point in his career because, you know, I do think he's been passed by those guys, at least from a week to week just when you're watching football. He just seems like he's less impactful

than some of these other guys and more in that like Jordan Love area, which for somebody that we were saying had a chance to be the best guy of all time lost a little momentum. So I'm just, I'm monitoring it. Anyway, how many 2025 QBs in your mind can conceivably win a 2025 playoff game?

And Mahomes is definitely one of them. And so is Alan on the Marr. And so is Jalen Hertz who just won the Super Bowl. And so is, I think Jordan Love has to be there just because his team's so good. I'd be shocked if they didn't win a playoff game. So there's five.

Would you still put Stafford on the list from what you've seen from him physically? Oh, my God, yes. Oh, he is, like, making some of the best throws of any quarterback early on. He looks unbelievable. I have him as well. There's six. Gough has to be on there because he's one playoff games. Ironically, Mayfield is 100% on there.

And you saw it again last night. Like, not only has he won playoff games, not only has that team been successful. But, you know, they'd go down five with two minutes left. I'm like, I feel like they're going to win. I just, I believe in that dude, right? He pulls up that big fourth and ten, but it's crazy that that guy got waived twice. I know. And is now as reliable.

You must love him. I love watching him. I love watching that offense. I mean, the combination of backs, Bucky Irving and Rashad White, they basically faulted that thing away. And behind, you know, they had like a center playing left tackle. They lost the right tackle, going up against one of the best defenses and all of football. And they were grinding them down, Irving and the catch.

game as well. But yeah, I think Bayfield's definitely in that category. Jane Daniels? Did you mention them already? Yeah, the next two I had were Purdy and Daniels

just because they'd both done it. So there's nine. There's nine guys we think can conceivably win a 2025 playoff game. Now we get, now the fun part starts. Justin Herbert.

Well, you left out DAC. I would put DAC in there too. I didn't get to him yet. Oh, so sorry. Justin Herbert. That was one tier. Now we're in the debate tier. Okay.

It's the debate tier. Justin Herbert 100% yes I think I have them too 100% But I mean this was a side sidebar question But he's now the most

Polarizing quarterback of this decade I think Dak had the title For a couple years And now Herbert just has it Because people are so passionate about it You think Because I feel like that The week one

Against Kansas City Was such a strong showing He was so good in that game It felt like The divide Like if it was 60 pro 40 anti anti herber i feel like it moved to 70 30 after that game well because there's the potential camp and the i see things that once this team is better and it and then there's just like

the results camp which was where i was more in it's like okay well if he's one of the seven best guys in league can he win a playoff game can you do this consistently let's see it let's see him win 12 games um yesterday he's awesome for two and a quarter and then he kind of slipped back into the other Justin Herbert for the fourth quarter and did some weird stuff, had some bad throws, should have gotten picked once. Kept trying to have the Raiders hang around in that game. And I was like, man, you had us. Yeah, they kind of chargersed a little bit in that one.

Yeah, they did. But I think the defense is so good that there's like a floor for this team right now. Yeah, I agree. I also like the way he's playing this year. He's scrambling way more. he's a little feistyer out there. He's, Herbert's a no doubter for me.

Me too. I think he's won me over, at least for winning one playoff game. Dak Prescott, who's never won a playoff game? Has he won a playoff game? He did, he put up one of the, he destroyed the books

in the wild card round. That was there that year. He's won a wild card game. He's never gotten past round one, though, right? No. I think that's what it is. Yeah, he's never won gotten past that. I have him on the list.

team league. This now it gets really interesting. 42 old Aaron Rogers. I don't think so. I'm out as well. I think it's just a no. Did you see what he looked like when they're, well, of course you did.

It was your team. Yeah. When they were actually pressuring him, it was not good. So there's, he still is capable of making some of the most impressive throws off platform. You'll see, right?

Like, and you see them kind of go viral. the next week. But the consistency when he has to hold the ball for more than two and a seconds is simply not there. I will say he's moving a little better

than I was expecting this season. I think he looks better this year than last year. There's no question. He made some really impressive throws on the run in this game. But for me, when I say I don't see them

winning a playoff game, it's about the team. It's not just Aaron. So if you have a quarterback who's, he can still make some really impressive throws. He's still really good on quick game.

You saw that in week one against what looks like a pretty bad Judd's defense. Okay, you can win that way, but you got to be able to run the football. You need more than one playmaker, and you need a good defense. And holy smokes, a defense looks really bad, the first two weeks of this, which kind of shocking. Yeah, and highsmiths already hurt, but, you know, it's not, it's shocking, but it's also not shocking because the seeds were being planted last year down the stretch, right? Yeah, they got spanked by the rain. Remember that?

All of a sudden, they just died, and Watt didn't get a sack. for like the last month and plus of the season. I mean, your beloved Seattle Seahawks just ran all over them in that game. Kenneth Walker looked incredible. Walker was great. There's just going to be no way to figure out who's going to be good game to game

between Walker and Charbonnet though. Oh, right. If you're juggling those guys in fantasy, good luck. Good luck. Like Charbonnet was terrible in Pittsburgh and he'll probably have 120 yards this next game. All right, Rogers were out. Gimpy Joe Burrow coming off

a major turf toe injury on a Bengals team that probably is a winning in nine games. I think he's a cross-off just for this year. Yeah. All right, now it gets really interesting.

Can Bo Nix win a playoff game in your mind? Oh, this is the one I was dreading. I think he is, you talked about Herbert, I think he's going to be the most divisive quarterback, maybe for like,

it's already happening. It's happening, yeah. Yeah, he took the torch. He looked better. I have a lot of Broncos capital for this year. Do you? I'm officially.

nervous, yeah. He looked better, I thought, in week two. Well, better from a guy that had four turnovers in week one, yeah. I do worry. The premise for the Broncos for me this year being really good was the defense would continue to be elite, and then they would be able to really run the ball better behind a great offensive line. They invest a lot in it.

It looks okay early on, but it feels like there's still a ceiling on the offense, and so you really need the defense to avoid regression. And they just got carved up by Danny Dimes. Shocking. That was stunning to me. Although shocking, but on the other hand, we talked about Tyler Warren earlier and how he's just immediately good. Taylor looks like, I think maybe the best he's ever looked. Like, he just looks the fastest, the shiftyest, just everything.

And you really saw like the weakness. He really exposed, I thought, the weakness of the Broncos defense, which is the linebacker unit. Dray Greenlaw has him been playing because they got him on those backers vertically and like one of my it's I'm I think it's too early to take a Daniel Jones

victory lap not me for people who are supporters of him but it's not too early for me to take an L on being very skeptical of why the Colts it wasn't about Whit Richardson for me it was I thought well there's clearly a ceiling on this office with Daniel Dimes like you really

as a Colts fan you want to go into the season. And I think Shane Steichen looked at him and saw a quarterback who'd actually execute his offense. And his offense is really good. He's a really good play caller. So that, even if I think Joe's is going to come back to Earth a little bit, particularly on the downfield stuff and under pressure.

But he can just run that offense. Is he on this list, by the way? Are we going to get to him? Because he is on the list. Yes. Well, he did already win a playoff game. True. And he looked worse.

that year to me. It's so funny because nobody wanted to pick Houston to win the AFC South, right? We're all doing the three and three out rule. I need to get a couple of playoff teams out, put a couple in. And we all stared at Indianapolis. I remember I was listening to Nate and Shield did a pod

and they talked about it. And I was just like, I have my train ticket thinking about this and I couldn't get there because of Jones. But when you think like they can block for him, he's got a good coordinator. they have actual weapons, and I would say they have one of the three or four best running backs. And Warren might be a top five tight end already, or top six, top seven, whatever.

He's at least somebody on third and four. He can get up and make a play. I don't know. I mean, they're the favorites in the division now, especially after Houston goes 0 and 2. And Houston's line, look, who has a worse line than Houston? Three teams? It's just so depressing to watch because it just feels like last. you're all over again.

Yeah. And it turns out taking offensive linemen from bad offensive lines in free agency isn't a good strategy for rebuilding. Yeah, I think

AFC South is going to be pretty close. I think the other thing about the cool set I like, though, is I like the defense. I know that they had a little, they gave up some big plays to Bo Nix, but I think Lou Anaruma was like the wrong coach

for the Bengals. He might be the right coach for a defense that has more veterans. And that's what Indianapolis is. Yeah, I don't, I said on Sunday night, it's a, after the Saints going 2 and O last year, and we got like, whoa, look at this. And then it could be the Rabbit team this year that just jumps out. I also thought they should have lost to Denver and they did lose.

And for some reason, there was a weird leverage play. So if they're one in one, are we as excited? Probably not. C.J. Stroud, I do not think we'll win a playoff game at least this year with that offensive line. I don't see a path. Yeah, I don't either. Even if they sneak in, I don't see it. It is, it was interesting to watch him last night to, in contrast with the Bucks

offense, because the Bucks offense also, like, they had makeshift offensive line, and the Texans defensive line was just, they were just completely destroying them on the line scrimmage. But Baker thought, did a good job getting the ball quickly. They, like, schemed up a lot of successful screens, and then the run game was still good. And it feels like Stroud has no easy butt. And I'm not completely exonerating him on some of the pressure stuff and there's situations where he's probably holding the ball too long. But like what does everything he has has does in this offense have to be like the hardest possible setting at all times.

It just feels exactly like last year. That's good point. Yeah. It's it's like the all time feast or famine. Like how about just an eight yard pass to somebody? Um, I have no for Stroud. I'm not going to say no for your guy Sam Donald's because I still like that Seattle team.

And I'm probably in the all. all-time minority, and I'm sure on your Seahawks text thread, you're not nearly as excited. But I think I like the team. I think they can run the ball. He's a roller coaster, but you've had that for the last decade anyway, so it's not anything different. And I don't mind the defense. Don't mind.

They're awesome. Yeah. I think this is one of the five best defenses in football. I hope you're right. That's what I was banking on when I picked them to win the NFC West. But I don't mind how the defense looked of the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, first week against the Niners, I thought there were a couple stops. Maybe you got to get that

they didn't get, but they were better in the Pittsburgh game. Yeah. This is a really tough one for me because I'm I am still a little apprehensive of this passing attack. It looked better against Pittsburgh. Well, you have an amazing receiver. One. You've won amazing

receiver. Jake Bobo, no, just kidding. Jack Smith to do you, but yeah, he's unbelievable. A cup was good against the Steelers, but I don't. know if there's enough. The premise of this Seahawks offense under Clint Kubiak is they're going to come out with big bodies, they got a tight end or a fullback who's built like SpongeBob, multiple

tight ends, and they're going to pound the rock, and then they're going to play action off of that wide zone run game, and they're going to put Sam Darnel under center. And when it works, it looks really good. And at times against the Steelers, it worked. But it did not look good week one. So I think it's just going to be up and down based on competition. It's going to be on the defense is going to have to carry them in a lot of these. Here's their path for a Sam Darnold

Playoff win. You have to win the division and you win the four or five game. And the five seed would be Detroit. I don't see that. I'm skeptical. I would love it.

Sam Darno just seems like a delight. I would love for him to have success. Penix? I don't see it. it's nice that they got a pass rush going though I kind of like the team I wouldn't rule it out I just think the bucks are better

and I don't see them as a while you know what I mean I'd have to I just think the bucks are going to win the NSC South okay and then we go Drake May, Kyler Gino Caleb Williams

we're going no on all those guys no on May so you're out I think you can make the playoffs I don't think they're beating Buffalo or Baltimore in round one they could be a seven seed they're not going to Buffalo and winning in mid-January.

Dimes is the only one out of everybody else who mentioned. I was like, shit, maybe I don't know. They could be the foreseed. Yeah, I think I might be a conceivable, yes. It still seems inconceivable, but. I really, like, I am not, I do not think this is going to continue at this rate. No.

But I was just looking at this friend of a live. He's completing 78% of his short passes, which is top five. Anthony Richardson completed the lowest by a lot. He was the only quarterback in the NFL last year completing less than 60% of his short passes. That to me is sustainable. Like Daniel Joneses always hit those.

And when you got a bunch of like mutant skill players like Warren and Taylor and they've got a really good group of receivers and I love Josh Downs and yeah, they can be efficient on offense. Line looks good. I'm a believer. well, they have at the Titans this week that has all the makings of just Vegas getting annihilated

at the Rams, then Home Raiders, Home Cardinals. It's like not an inconceivable five and one after six games for them, which is kind of bonkers to think about. Okay, a couple more things before we go. The NFC West, what's happening there? We talked about the Seahawks a little, but what's got to? going on? Is this going to be the wonky division this year that we just every, almost like last year. Every

week it seems like somebody's the favorite and then somebody loses and then it's a new favorite. That's just what we're going to do. Three two and no teams right now in the NFC West. Are they the only they must be the only division in football? Let's see. They're only in the, yeah. Yeah. They're the only division and then the CX are one and one. And they played the Niners week on. So yeah, I think

I felt before the year that this was like the closest knit division. right where like all four teams are pretty close and I definitely still feel that way I think early on Matthew Stafford kind of has reminded us that he's still cut above and that offense to me is has a higher ceiling than all four of them but when you look at the teams as a whole I could see it coming down to the wire between all them because the Seahawks have the best defense the Niners are probably the most balanced but then there's the pretty but have the least depth and already had multiple injuries.

And I don't know, Cardinals are really hard for me to get my arms around because Kyler is like one of the more high variance quarterbacks in football. Like there's moments where he looks to me, unbelievable. And he makes Marvin Harrison Jr.'s look good early on. But then there's stretches where he's just not playing to the level he's capable of. Well, on Fandall right now, the Niners are plus 155. The Rams are plus 170. The Cardinals are plus 350.

And then Seattle's 8 to 1, which I just. I just don't fundamentally understand. Because I agree with you. I think those teams are all bunched together. A lot of it's going to come down to injury luck. You know there's going to be three or four absolutely stupid games between the two of the teams, right? We're going to have like a 19 to 18 scoregami, some sort of field goal hitting both

uprights before it goes through. Like, he's just no weird shit's going to happen. But I think it's anybody's division. So the 8 to 1 was really surprising to me. If they all played each other, like in every matchup, I don't think any of them would have more than a score. They'd probably all be like four point, three points or less. Right.

So, yeah, I mean, to me, it's just going to come down to matchups and injuries for all of them. The Niners, I mean, that's just a reflection of the schedule being so easy, right? Yeah. They didn't look like world beaters. I mean, they'd look better in Seattle. Obviously, they won that game and particularly on offense. And the defense looks somewhat fixed under Robert Salo. I think you win that game

if you just go for the fourth down. And McDonald's saying afterwards that the nerds told him to go for it and he kind of overruled them. I know. I was surprised by that. I was too because I really like him a big fan of him

and I thought he was really good at game management last year. I was surprised by that. Sometimes, you know, when these defensive coaches get an elite defense on their hands, they start. Did they overtrust it?

Yeah. But yeah, I don't think he'll, I think next time he'll probably be more. He was more aggressive in this last game, too. Speaking of division odds, this would be your overreaction. This happens every year heading in the week three. Colts are plus 135 on Fandual. Jags are 2 to 1 and the Texans are down to plus 250. It feels a little overreacting.

We're 15 games left. Like they still have the best secondary, probably in the league. they still have a pass rush. That rush is unbelievable. They have the best, I still think they might have the best defense in the NFL. They might have just lost two

two playoff teams, the Rams and Tampa, who might be the third and fourth best teams in the NFC for all we now. I don't know. That feels like an overreaction. Oh and two things is hard.

I mean, the Rams did it, right? But it's hard, dig your, I mean, every year someone does it. Every year someone does it.

I think that does. I agree. I think that feels, especially compared to the jacks. Well, you sound from I'm reading between the lines of you on this podcast today, but also text with you and Danny Kelly. I'm going to say there's like a cautious buzz right now in Seahawks Nation, just like a little.

You were so high on them this summer. Somebody's got to win the division. They seem like the safest pick to me. Everybody was talking about the Arizona Cardinals. And I'm like, what have they ever done? I have to pick Kyla Murray. Why do I have to do that? I feel like your Seahawks enthusiasm

like reverse psychologists me psychologized me into being I'm learning a lot about this as the mother of a two-year-old which is you can't sell someone too hard on something because it makes them not want it and I feel like you did that to me a little bit with your Seahawks hype this off season. How old is your child exactly?

He turns two in two weeks. Oh, good luck, man. That is just good luck. Two-year-old boys, just demons. Yeah. Good luck. I wish you the best. That's going to be during football season?

Oh, my God. No, it's great. I love being told no. No, no, no, no, no, no. Is the most popular word in our house right now. Just constantly. I wish you the best. Hey, I'm a big fan of Fandual's Thursday touchdown jackpot promo available for every Thursday night football game.

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for Thursday night football this week and each subsequent Thursday over at Fando's Sportsbook. All right, last question and most important, some huge Jaden Daniels news. And what's the deal? Just walk us through your emotions here.

Knee injury. Not the injury. Yeah. Oh. Forget the injury. He'll be fun. The other news You had me queued up

I was like he took 206 instances of contact last year In the open field he's just too vulnerable I'm already on that I've been saying that to house forever Well the big Jane Daniels news Which is that he is one eighth Japanese Which he broke which is important So this is not

My contingent Assigning a designate Yeah he put it on his helmet He wore it because they wear the little flags. It put the Japanese flag on his helmet. So what did he say? His grandmother was Japanese or half Japanese? His great-grandmother is Japanese.

So his grandmother is half-Japanese. So his mom is a quarter. So he's an eighth, right? I think I did the math, right? But I did a deep dive, Bill. Yeah, I figured he would. On his mom's Instagram, like eight years and found several pictures. His grandmother just looks like my relatives.

So, listen, I see. said to Dominique when the news broke, it was a big piece of breaking news in my community. Any quarterback with a QBR of 90 or higher will take anything. You can be one 24th Korean and we will claim you if you're performing the way Jane Daniels does. But another piece of news broke, Cameron Dicker, the Chargers kicker who's like really good. Chinese. Saw that. There was a graphic that came across. What were the? What's the, what's the Percentage. Graphic doesn't break it down.

So I'll have to do another deep dive in there. But I think you needed Daniels because I know Chang was really upset about Ku. I know. Kind of falling apart in Atlanta. We needed a kicker. So we got one now. So what was what was Heinz Ward? He was Thai, right?

No, he was Korean. Korean? Yeah. This is a big deal for me growing up. Yeah, but how, like he was way more than Jane Daniels. I was 50. percent, if I remember. And he took it really seriously.

We got a good squad going. I did the whole list. I might have to update the roster. We're very strong. There's a roster. Yeah, I put together a whole roster. We're very strong. We're surprisingly strong at skill player because we got Puka.

It's AANHPI because we need all the PIs in the trenches that we can get. The whole offensive line is basically, although the Bronco Center is part Korean. I think I found it recently. And it's a golden age for Asian. Safeties, led, of course, by our king, Kyle Hamilton. I forgot. But there's like 10 right now around the league, safeties for some reason.

I don't know why. We're pretty thin at tight end. If anyone's listening to this and knows any tight end who has even just a little bit, please alert me because we really need tightness. I honestly, if this was a Twitter account, I would follow it. Just like updates, breaking news. We need like an aggregator account that only does that, like a dove climbing but not evil account

that just reports on Asian NFL news. Yeah, I don't feel like Chang's been focused enough on it at all, to be honest. I know he's busy. The Netflix show came back. You and I were on it a couple weeks ago. He's traveling around with Amazon. He's already been knocked out of my guillotine league.

He's very upset about that. Oh, no, really? Yeah. But I don't feel like he's been focused enough on this Daniels thing because that's his favorite team. I know. It's, I, when I said it to him, I expected a way bigger reaction than the what we did. Yeah, I don't know what's going on. Maybe he's slow playing it.

Maybe it's too much pressure now. Because it's like kind of crossed the beams for him with two different areas of interest. This is like I don't, I don't know if you do this. We've never talked about it. I don't draft Seahawks in fantasy for this exact reason, which is you don't want two feelings of loyalty and incentive. at the same time. Do you do that? I'm the opposite. I, like, I have Trayvion Anderson multiple leagues.

Meanwhile, meanwhile, I can't block. Yeah. He was, well, I was promised to a pass blocker. I was promised this awesome pass blocker that, that then could play three downs. And he's, and he's, he'd three holding penalties last week. Yeah. Pretty rough. Dave might also be so reeling from your, your bold anti-rice take.

It got a big reaction. It was an anti-race. It was pro-powering. pasta. It was, you can't rate anything highly that you can make in one minute. I just said you can't make pasta at one minute. Listen, my goal on that show is just to try to throw Chang off. So he is thinking he's mad about something I said and then he forgets what he's cooking. But you did the amazing thing of you go on dinner time live three hours after you had lunch. Yeah, that was amazing. And then I'm the one who has to do all the eating. And you're just like picking like

little bird because you're not hungry. And you're not a big eater, too. I have seen you. I don't want to be like mowing down on live TV. So there is something, you're very self-conscious on those shows because you want to eat and it's really good, but you also don't want to seem like you're in Goodfellas.

You know what happened to me on that show? I didn't, I don't know if I told you this. So early, Dave started making out this green food and he made Mondu, which I grew up eating. And you remember I was like, yeah, I grew up making this with my mom or whatever. Yeah. He puts it out.

I swear, I'm not blaming Chang, but I immediately shove it into my mouth. And it was, I burned my entire mouth. So I could actually barely taste anything. And then, but my thought is like, I can't spit out food on television. So for a full, like, minute, I was just sitting there trying, hoping it would cool inside of my mouth because it was so hot. And my mouth was burned.

I don't think I could feel anything in my mouth for like three days after that. Yeah, that's rough when you really burn it. when you just have like skin hanging from the top of your top of your mouth what's your favorite TV show right now um loving task your recommendation just i said chris ryan was over my house talking about how good it was so i had to watch it i'm loving it great you guys are recapping that's it i'm watching the girlfriend on amazon with robin right that is so you're just like it's it's just the algorithm knows me it's like there's somebody's her son's dating somebody she doesn't trust they're like and there's backstories and all these shows start with a murder now the first

thing you see is the dead body and blood and then we go backwards start that way i feel like yeah that's how they start that's the algorithm tells them to do it a show that actually did kind of start that way but in a different way that i love alieners are you watching that on i'm not watching that it's good it's it's a show i mean it says it's it's noah holly who did fargo which i loved also apparently it's like the best at taking source material and turning it in television um it's you know, it's about these children or hybrids or whatever. But really, it's two actors. Timothy Oliphant is one of them.

And then the other, I forget the actor's name, but his character's name is Morrow, who are just running away with this series, a cyborg and a synth or whatnot. Every scene with them, I can't believe you're not watching this, because you would love the Timothy Oliphant scenes in this show. I'll watch it.

I love Olephant. The football really threw me for a loop. I either have to watch like a show like task where I'm all in on, or a really dumb show like The Girlfriend. Yeah. And those are like my two speeds at this point. Task on Sundays is tough, but. I got to be honest.

I know you're still watching some of these reality shows. I'm having a really hard time with reality, and I don't know whether I'm just too old now. I might have aged out of the demo. I might be edging towards CBS because I'm old. I did Love Island this summer, and it was pretty, it was brutal. you know what's the problem with it this is my theory about kind of all reality television

people started treating it like sports in a way that made it not fun yeah it's kind of gotten overtaken by like Stan culture in the internet and also I think it maybe there's a sports analogy here for like young quarterbacks coming in and trying to meme at homes

everybody on the shows is now just trying to be memed and you know influence which no no shame in the game but I think it's kind of ruining the shows. I think that's a really crucial and important point. When reality was really working in the 2000s at its best, it was people who almost had no idea they were being filmed

and that there would be ramifications combined with just kind of aberrant behavior that now most of that, if not all of it, is discouraged, which is probably a good thing for mankind. But for reality shows, the shows are just way more careful. Like the challenge, I can't even really really. watch anymore. It's like an athletic competition. Is that it? You know? It's still going. It's still going. And it's like, it's like, it really is the fifth American sport now.

But even these dating shows like that Bachelor in Paradise, I don't know what they were doing with that show. I still watch Love is Blind. We recap it. I have a show. Yeah. Viewer discretion. People like Love is blind. But, and I still like that one because I think it actually gets people who, they're a little older and they're not like all influencers. But. And it's just really well-produced. But yeah, I used to watch so much more I tapped out on. You and I used to text about The Bachelor years ago. I used to be a good show. I don't, I think it's, it probably ran its course.

It's been on since 2002. Like, what were you doing in 2003? What were you doing in 2003? Yeah. It's how long it's been on. Yeah. Well, it's probably good for my brain that I'm watching less reality TV and more alien. Now we just have more football

And football is now on Every channel It was like four days a week It's just done all the time I didn't like the Friday That was well yeah You didn't like Friday Brazil It was tough

But that might be more like As a mother of a two-year-old It's just hard with the multiple nights You know it's gonna be tough It's Thursday night Bill's Dolphins Probably Mike McDaniel's last game And Josh Allen

Just going nuts What day of the ringer NFL show Does he get with him? Should I make the invitation now or wait until he's formally believed of his duties? My classmate, Mike Daniel, or maybe I don't know if we overlapped. I also don't know if he'd be a good, of all the NFL coaches right now, if you could take any of them. This is not about their coaching talent. Who do you think would be, you are, I've often said this, I think the single best talent evaluator in our industry.

Oh, thank you. Who would you appreciate that of the coaches? to be a new co-host of the Ringer NFL show. So is the caveat they're never going to coach football again, and they're going to just do this for a living? Don't worry about that. Don't worry about the coaching. Don't worry if they're good at coaching. Don't worry if they're going to be available.

Just who would you pick because you think that guy is going to be freaking awesome talking? McBay. Yeah, that's number one draft big. Easy. Although, I'm becoming more and more intrigued by Kevin O'Connell. He's good. He's a good talker.

Dark Horse. I watch all the locker room speeches. This is my true passion now that reality TV has died for me. And I think his locker room stuff is really high end. Like he's almost playing for the cameras in the right ways, but I think he's really good at it.

You haven't met him in person, right? No. Really charismatic too. And you can see why all the players love him so much immediately as soon as you talk to him. So he would be, he's too tall to be a podcaster, but he would be good otherwise. Well, he's smart enough to make up a fake injury for J.J. McCarthy, the high ankle sprain that

I don't think happened. Yeah, his ankles hurt. We need Carson Wentz for a couple weeks after JJ missed 130 throws. Meena, thanks for popping on. Go do television. And let's go see Hawks. Congratulations on Jad and Daniels. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. Glad to have them as a member. Now it's time for a special part of today's episode, brought to you by NFL. Sunday ticket on YouTube TV, our friends. And if you're an NFL fan like me, obviously I'm a fan because you've heard me talk about it constantly. You want an NFL Sunday ticket. You want to subscribe. You want to do it on YouTube TV. You get every game, every Sunday all in place. You can watch

four games at once on Multi-View, which is going to be difficult this week because there's nine early games, the 1 o'clock PM ET games. There's nine of them. And lucky for me, YouTube has crowned me. They're CMO, their chief multi-view officer. It's my job to tell you which four games to pick. But remember, local and national games on YouTube TV, NFL Sunday take a brat of market games, excludes digital in the games that commercially use, device and content restrictions apply terms and embargoes supply. No refunds. Well, two of the picks are easy. Rams Eagles. That's going to be awesome.

Steelers' Pats? Are the Pats for real? Are the Steelers run defense a mess? Rogers? Can the patch shut them down? Drake May, is that for real? I'm excited for that one. Cincinnati, Minnesota would be the third one.

Two backup QBs. Kind of interested in both, Wentz, Jake Browning, not terrible since he's 2-0, Minnesota's 1-1-1. And then last but not least, I'd probably put Indianapolis and Tennessee on, even though Tennessee's 0-2. I really like watching Cam Ward

and Indianapolis. Let's see, can you go 3-0? Is your offense the 99 Rams? What's happening with this team? Those would be my four. So thanks again to YouTube for give me the chief multi-view officer job, the CMO. With every game, every Sunday at your fingertips,

choosing the ones that deserve a spot on your multi-view screen is serious business. So you can never miss a moment of action. All you have to do is get NFL Sunday ticket on YouTube TV. For a limited time, only get $36 off NFL Sunday ticket using code BS36 at checkout. New Year's only while supplies last ends September 22nd. go to YouTube.com slash BS to sign up now. Local and national games on YouTube TV, NFL Sunday ticket for out of market games,

excludes digital-only games of commercial use, device, and content restrictions apply. Terms and embargoes apply. No refunds. All right, my friend Brian Koppelman is here. A long-time, long-time, long-time movie aficionado. He's made movies. He works in Hollywood.

Robert Redford died today. And for some reason, you were my first text. I wanted to talk to you about Robert Redford, because I think we both appreciated and liked and were frustrated by all the same things. But I'll start here. In the running for best all-around career of any actor ever,

considering all the things that he did? The movie star rankings, like as far as a true movie star person, who then became a director, a filmmaker, producer. I mean, are you counting, you include Sundance in that? No doubt about it.

You have to. You have to include Sundance. No doubt. Yeah, that was the, I was just thinking about the scope as for some reason I didn't know that this day was, I hadn't heard that he was, obviously it was 89, so you never know at that point. But when you think about, you start reading the stories and you're like, holy mackerel, this guy did so much stuff. His careers in all these different segments. I mean, he's the biggest actor in the 70s, right? And we'll go into some of the reasons why that happened. But he's just, he owns that decade over. some great guys. Newman's in there, McQueen, Reynolds, and he's the guy from that decade, right? Yeah, I mean, it's funny.

He had some runs when I was looking at over, even just as soon as we started texting about the movies, he had runs as each thing that little runs within the thing, each of which would have made him in the running for kind of like the best eight-year chunk. And he repeated that a bunch of times in, different ways. Like, from when he would get a foothold at something, he could really run with it for a while in a crazy, amazing way. But also, Bill, I think part of why you wrote me is, we're not

going to say, but, you know, someone who meant a lot to the two of us had told us a lot of stories and about him, you know. And so I think we just had a bunch of different reactions together. Yeah, yeah. Well, he wins best director and best film for ordinary people, which was the first movie he directed in 1980. We already did it in the rewatchables, but it's during a time when actors really weren't supposed to do that.

Actors were supposed to act. Directors were supposed to direct, and for the most part, you didn't really cross the beams. He started three Best Picture Actors, or Best Picture Oscar winners, and laid down this whole model for all these actors that followed,

where it's like, well, I want to be an EP on this film. I want to own my own stuff. to own a company. I want to do more festivals. I want to be an activist. I think him and Newman really were the first two that I could remember that did that. Can you think anybody else? No. I mean, who did which piece? Who did which piece of it? Newman did the, he was big on the activism side and just trying to do a bunch of charity stuff and just use his platform for other things. Redford was doing some of that and some of the other Well, Brando certainly did.

Different actors did along the way in different ways. Maybe, you know, for political commentary. Yeah, yeah. Smaller ways. But, yeah, those guys both absolutely did it. I mean, Jane Fonda definitely tried to, you know, did it too. But those guys, no doubt about it. Also, he just did lay down.

I think it's got to just start for me. like Robert Redford is like the quintessential idea of what a movie star is supposed to feel and look like and I think so much of it had to do with yes his of course is physical appearance but the stillness in him as an actor how he would just however he got that confidence to like let the camera just land on him

but also his taste which is what runs through everything you were just talking about this is a guy who just could pick he went through these periods where he just kind of it felt like understood what the mood was or what cool was or what classy was

and he could anticipate it at just the moment the wave was going to break and he could ride the wave and that's like an incredibly rare skill over a long period of time. Yeah, taste and self-awareness

is a really good combo if you're an A-plus lister. Yeah, I was thinking I wrote down the three things that he just seemed to completely understand that all seemed pretty basic. And the first one, you just mentioned. He knew he was a movie star. He wanted to make movies where he seemed like a

movie star. And this was something Tarantino wrote about when he wrote about Steve McQueen in his book where he was like, Steve McQueen, the most important thing to him was just how he looked in film, how he looked in a scene, how he didn't want a lot of dialogue. He would tell the screenwriter, like, cut that out. I only need to say two words there. I don't need to go back and forth of the bunch of people. Redford was like, I'm really handsome. I'm a little mysterious. There's something a tiny bit

hard to figure out about me. I play it close to the best. You're going to have to figure me out. But I'm really handsome. And he wrote that through the late 60s and early in the 70s as well as anything. I mean, I don't know.

I can't remember when we did the margin call podcast if you had seen J.C.'s movie that he made with Redford um on the all is lost right i think right yeah did you ever see that movie oh yeah because it's incredible and it's this thing you're talking about i mean redford says five words in the movie and you're just with him and his face and his body and the situation he's in and you care so much about who what's going to happen to this guy and there's no great backstory you don't know a tremendous amount but and in a way that I remember watching that a theater and and like you just

said you had no idea he was sick neither did I didn't know other than when he said he was stepping down from being actively running stuff yeah so you you had a sense how you know he feels like he maybe isn't but I didn't know him I never met the man I had no idea but uh all is lost I remember watching this little theater in New York and thinking well he put it down he put down that performance the guy does at the very end where it's like remember this is what I was great at because he didn't have to speak in that movie but he had to be and carry all of what Robert Redford was and because that guy was self-sufficient that guy was stoic that guy also beat himself up at moments you know he had hubris but it was like this whole grit and he had dignity

and he had resolve and he had grit. And it was like stacking all these aspects of all these characters that Redford had played. Another, by the way, just incredible work by J.C. Shandor, who I think is like the most underrated direct for some reason.

Well, think about how underrated that guy is, what he's done. Redford, amazing and towering. Like, I don't know who's, I mean, who do you, I'm sure you thought about it. I don't know, who's in that conversation with him in your mind? I want to get to that. I have a spot for that.

The second thing that I thought he understood work with as many great directors as you can. I mean, he made seven Pollock movies. He and City Pollock had a special relationship. That's something that I think some of the modern actors have really, that was a big Leo thing. The smarter guys are like, I just want to work with the best people.

The third thing, I think, is really underrated. And I haven't heard anyone make this point. And I don't know if it's a coincidence or if it's something, if I had ever had him on a podcast, I would have asked him. He really understood the importance of an ending and how important it was when a movie is coming to a close, some sort of scene or moment that when you're leaving the theater, you're like, man, that was fucking awesome.

And again, I don't know if it was a coincidence, but think about, I have nine movies here, downhill racer, the fucking amazing last five minutes, right? The spoiler alert, he thinks he thinks he's just won the downhill. And there's one last guy coming and they're all celebrating. And then they're kind of looking up and this guy's hitting the times. And all of a sudden, that guy flies in the air.

It's just awesome. Butch and Sundance, one of the great endings ever written. Jeremiah Johnson, my dad's favorite movie. I only saw that movie one time with my dad. I don't remember the ending. it's just the you know he's fought these Native Americans forever and then at the end they have this begrudgeon respect and it's a wave

and he waves and and then this voice comes in some folks say he's up there still and it's just got it's just fucking like yes he survived the candidate he wins I love the candidate

it's on the rewatch of his list The last moment of Canada, it is one of the all-time... What do we do now? Yeah, what do we do now? The sting? The whole reason people loved that movie was the last 10 minutes. The way we were. Kind of a flawed movie, but when he runs into Streisand at the end,

your girl is lovely, Hubble. Stolen for Sex and the City, first season, last episode. All the President's men, all the President's men with the, the typing and Nixon. And then the last two, I think he had figured out the endings things. Brewbaker is one of my favorite endings of any random movie ever.

The clap. I made the case and invented the slow clap. You think, oh, is that the first, you think that's the first usage? I think it invented the slow clap. I do. Sick. I do. For people listening who don't know what Brubaker is, he's a prison warden. He's a warden, yeah. Goes undercover in the prison because the prison is so

corrupt. He pretends. to be a prisoner, but after he gets a job, goes in, and then ends up that gets pushed out by the state. But the prisoners realize he was actually like trying to make the prison better and they slow clap on him as he's driving away. It's fucking awesome. And then the last one's the natural. One of the great endings of any sports movie. Incredible. Probably the number one game you would have wanted to go to. Anyway, I don't know if that's a coincidence, but he just always left you leaving the theater, thinking about it, feeling on a high or feeling something yeah i mean that goes back to taste right and knowing what to choose to be in and then

by all accounts he was pretty relentless as far as making sure the scripts were right to his own satisfaction so i'm sure you know look he he had the the benefit of working with some of the greatest screenwriters ever like william goldman yeah and uh i mean bill certainly wrote about that experience in certain ways um and bill won the oscar for all the president's men. And I think they had a good working relationship on Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid. Yeah.

Well, in the last 60 years, Redford had a case for making the best Western, Butch and Sundance, the best baseball movie, the best conspiracy thrower, the best political movie, and the best reporting movie.

Oh, yeah, don't leave out the ending of three days of the Condor either. Yeah, that's where I get the conspiracy throw. Yeah, But I'm saying the ending of that movie, Unreal, too, with the newspaper in front of that.

That's incredible also. And, you know, that movie's influence is like, you can't even begin to talk about that movie's influence. It's so big. And then the other thing, you talked about how he just had a good sense of what to do and what roles to take and more importantly, not to take. There was, like, that famous story of the graduate

when Mike Nichols wanted him, but then wasn't sure he was right for the role because he wanted the guy to be more of a loser. and as the story goes he asked Redford have you ever made a move on a girl and been turned down and Redford's like no and he's like you that's this is why you can't have the role he said Redford didn't even understand the question

he's like what do you mean yeah what are you talking what I put my sights on a woman and she and she's not interested what's that like was he treated like he was nailing but it's interesting he never like did a horror movie like apparently he turned down Rosemary's baby

you know, he never did some sort of movie where he's playing somebody that's completely different than who he was. He always was kind of felt like it was Redford in whatever he did, which I think was intentional, right? Some people are just like, I need to be around the vicinity of me. Yeah, they play roles that the essence of who they are is the thing that kind of shines through. and big movie stars a lot of time where the essence that that we associate with them somehow is the thing that that shines through. And he didn't always play a good, like some people think that means that they're always playing someone who's like a good man.

That's not the case, but it's kind of a guy in Redford's case who has always had the ability to be competent. I mean, Condor is a great example where at first he seems incompetent, but by the end, he's a guy who can he can figure it out he played smart really well and especially a guy people could think oh they think he's dumb because he's so handsome but really he's smart really he can think maybe not the fastest thinker but a good thinker and of course i mean even though goldman wrote it the way redford played you know can i move as sundance invented a whole kind of a character the kind of sidekick character that he was who becomes kind of the equal buddy and a guy who could

admit I can't swim. You know, there are a couple of scenes in Butch Cassidy that are like among the best scenes in cinema history that really rely on like line readings by Redford that were unbelievable, you know? Well, and then all the presidents, which we we didn't rewatch was a while ago, there's that great scene when Hoffman's stealing his copy and he kind of realizes what's happening and the way he kind of plays that and then he finally goes over and he goes, I don't mind what he did. I just don't like how he did it. It's the greatest.

I mean, that's one of my dad and quiz show, which he directed, those are two, the guy was involved in absolutely, you know, deeply, two of my personal, like 10 favorite movies of all time. And like all the president's men, probably maybe my most rewatched movie. It's really possible. But quiz show is definitely top 10 of my most rewatched movies that he directed. And they're similar. They're cousins, those movies.

What is it about all the president's men that? sucked you in. Because I've heard different answers for this, depending on who you ask. The two, honestly, originally, because, like, I first saw it as a kid. I mean, that's been a movie I've rewatched my whole life. Yeah, me too. Well, Bill, I don't think you could separate it from, like, I was seven when Nixon resigned. My mom made me sit down. I just felt like it's been on since I was, like, you know, a kid. But my mom made me watch, and I'm so glad she did Nixon's resignation speech, you know, so like the story of getting those bad guys. Yeah. And then it was writers who did it, right? The way.

when you're a kid processing it, reporters who did it. And those guys were famous in my house. They would talk about those two guys because it was amazing what they did. And then this movie that I had heard was so great. And I just remember the way they talked. And also like, you know, oh, I remember when you were a writer? Do you remember Bill when you were a writer? When my fingers worked?

Yeah. Yeah, when you were a writer back, you were a great writer. And you know how much I loved your writing. But so you do know when you're young, even if you don't know you're going to be a writer, stories about writers, they get your attention in a certain way. Like, you're like, wait, these are writers? What does that mean? Even if you don't know, you're like, there's something about that that just like

hits you. And that was the thing. Like, what do you mean? They're other journalists. Wait, what? It was just the cool. I don't know. Like, it was the cool.

And also the long hair. And the way that they just even dressed in the situation and their friendship, also they were so fucking cool in the movie. The way they would trap people with the dialogue, the way they would concoct schemes. Also, their boss being such a mother fight. It was like every one of those things, the crackling dialogue and that they won.

The good guys won, but it was really complicated. And they barely won. And no one even knew if it was a good thing. I don't know. For me, every part of it is incredible. What about you? What is it about it? I didn't get into it.

I didn't get into it until college. Maybe right after college, because I had to have a Watergate phase because that's what everybody would have afterwards. You would have your JFK phase, your Watergate phase, you're just,

you're Charles Manson phase, you're just going to read the book, I'm going to read this, I'm going to watch that. And I did the Watergate thing and I just watched all the president's men. And then just from that point on, I felt like I've watched it

at least once a year since. And the only movie I can think of that came close to it was Spotlight, which I think is, is the most depressing subject possible, but is this amazingly rewatchable movie that's now been out of 10 years. But very similar beats of,

there's something really important happening. We actually need reporters and they're solving it almost like this true crime thing. People are against them. There's a big establishment that wants to knock them out. You're so right. I mean,

I just also to say, obviously when I say all the president spends my most rewashed movie, the Godfather movies don't even count? Like, they're just their own, that's their own staff. No, that's like saying, like Knicks games. Yeah, I can't count the Godfather movies. Obviously, those are the most is not even close. But I'm talking about after, after that. Just spotlight, man, the first time I saw it, I saw Spotlight as in a screening and when it was not even finished yet. And I

sent emails around to a bunch of people like, I just saw the Best Picture Winner. And this is like, I said that movie spotlight that Tom McCarthy made is every single thing, every ambition I could ever have of what the ultimate thing you could do as a filmmaker is what Tom did in that movie. And you're right. I hadn't thought of it in terms of it, but it is all the press has been. To me, Quist Show, which as you know, it's the rewatchables that you and are going to do someday. Quiz show is for me really right up there because it's the same kind of story in a way, which we could talk about another time. but I feel like it's, it does the same thing,

but there are very few movies that do it well. And Redford did that. Only nominated for one acting Oscar, which seems nuts. It's like finding out that some incredible NBA player only made like one all NBA team. I don't even know. I saw that he only won one. What did he win for?

He won for directing. Right. That's it. Ordinary people. But when he beat Scorsese, which has turned out to be really caught. Right. For Best Pippet, as producer or director,

that one. Did he want it? He wanted as director. Right. Yeah. He was only nominated for this sting. He never, you mentioned all his loss. That's like way late in his career. He never had his version of the verdict or call her money like Newman did. But what's interesting is he was in on the verdict. He was doing the movie and really wanted them to rewrite it because he didn't like that the guy was such a loser. And this is something Goldman would talk about. Goldman would always talk about how stars didn't want to play losers they didn't they always wanted to seem like the hero and and he's just like this guy's too much of a loser so he drops out and gives that role and you know newman ends up getting it and should have won the Oscar for it but it became such an

important Newman role yeah and Redford just just wasn't fit his didn't fit his model for what he wanted for us up the thing ended up working out perfectly just the way for everybody it's probably i don't think i would have bought him as frank galvin but that's the thing like I think deep down he knew that was a good character. You know, not necessarily in the Lumat Mamet Mammat version of the movie. Yeah. Right.

But he never got, I feel like he never got acting respect past a certain point, right? And I don't really know the, you know, I think sometimes, especially with actors, when somebody is simple and really good like that, sometimes we recognize it

and sometimes we don't. And in his case, Maybe he was, I'm not an actor, so I wouldn't be able to speak, like, if, could he be on stage? Could he have been belting it? Like, when you hear, like, these legendary stories of, you know, Pacino on Broadway or Olivier back in the day. I don't know if he was an actor like that. In a way, maybe that's to do with the era, like, because, yes, he's a movie star. I think you said it perfectly.

He's a movie star. But it's hard to do what he did as an actor. And if you look at the actors who work. the ones mostly in his kind of prime lead era who were getting recognized, they were big performances. They were people really doing something, right? Whether it's Peter Boyle, whether it's Dustin, you know, Dustin or Pacino or De Niro, they were showier. They were incredible of our favorite actors, but and Redford's were much less showy. He didn't do that really. He wasn't a, he wasn't big in that way.

So many things get tied to the period that they're in, right? The moods and tones. Right. But to be a star for as long as he was a star, it's kind of amazing, right? And, and rare. And I think he chose it. I think he, by the thing you're talking about, he didn't take the character, he also didn't take those parts.

Right. He loved being, like, so many of his movies he's, hero or there's a little bit of like that like downhill racer is definitely a cruise character right 30 years later cruise is easy or 20 years later um so he could do that downhill racer thing he could be the sidekick like butch cassidy he could do jeremiah johnson which is basically 1973 revenant you know what like was not like the crazy director where you're sleeping in a bare stomach but it was still like it's one guy just like he could have been in castaway i think he could have done that role, you know, like, where it's just like, I'm going to be the star of the

movie. I'm going to carry scenes by myself just by being interesting. He may look effortless, maybe. I'm just trying to think about the question. Actually, I'm trying to give a second to your question. And I'm just reviewing all these performances. And if I think about it, other than Sundance and Condor, most of these performances, he did make it look. he was an actor who looked like I would say effortless he yeah it was he made it look kind of effortless I mean which is why

the natural Roy Hobbs is such a great part for him in a way this guy with that swing you know and who looked a certain way believable believable swing and he looked a certain way and you'd never know what this backstory was and you

you wouldn't know that there was any trauma there or any of that shit you know and he had that swing And that swing, in a way, is a great metaphor, right? For just looking like Redford looked and walking like you walked. And it kind of doesn't invite you to go, oh, look at the craft. Because, of course, to build a swing like that took a lot of effort in Roy Hobbs, right?

It's like people watch Federer. And they go, oh, it's gorgeous. It's like, you know how much torque that guy's generating? You know how many thousands, millions of hours he's put in so that it looks like, this beautiful, effortless thing. But still we watch it and we go, oh, graceful. Oh, effortless. It's interesting how that movie age,

because I think for the entire time I was in high school, through college, through the first six years I had my column for the sports guy column, the natural and Hoosiers were the two best sports movies of all time. And those were the only two acceptable arguments. Those are the ones we argued

about as like which one's better. But then as the years passed, I don't feel like the natural held up in that conversation in the same way. And I'm not really sure why. Maybe it's partly baseball or maybe it was so far back, you know, we're in like the 19, you know, 1940s. It's Barry Levinson embraces.

Barry Levinson, right? And he, I mean, he just embraced all that. So it's shot that way, like the gliding camera. It doesn't feel like a contemporary movie in any way. It feels like almost like it's a throwback, right?

But you and I have probably seen it a combined 700 times. I mean, I've certainly seen it plenty of times. I love it. But if you're asking why people don't, I don't know. Like, I bet you, I don't know if Sam has seen it incidentally. I'm in the room. My son grew up, and I love that I'm throwing an entire Knicks wall. Even an entire Knicks wall.

And we've asked them, if you want us to repaint the room now that you're out of here and whatever. No, keep it. Keep the Knicks up there. And also, I'd say, you know, in the pro wrestling Simmons, Pablo Torre back and forth, Sammy broke this huge story on Pablo today. What was the story? Oh, it's just an insane sports. It's an insane story about China stealing the brainwaves of athletes.

It's crazy. You'll freak out. But Sam and Pablo did it together. So you had to have me up just to balance the scale. You know, you got to balance the scale. You do the old guy version of the combo. Totally. We're like to, we got to bring our walkers in.

Yeah. And do our version. It's coming in. Hold that. it's time for bingo. I'm talking about the natural. Yeah, talk about the natural. You're the best damn hitter I ever saw.

Suit up. Wilford, how many times do you think that combined Pablo and Sam have seen the national? At the most. I'm giving you two at the most. That's the thing.

And it shifts where like money ball becomes the new natural, right? And I think money ball for the last 15 years probably took the spot in a lot of ways. So- Are you an eight men? And do you love A-Men Out?

I love A-Men Out. So does Bain Lathen. I would put A-Men Out might be the best baseball movie. It's possible. Another great ending movie. Yeah, incredible. Oh, my God. Shula's show five years after. That's no incredible.

That movie's, that negotiation scene is one of the most incredible sports movie scenes. If you haven't seen A-Men Out, go see it. Quickly on Redford. Yep. So he has this run from 69 to 76. You mentioned earlier how he had this. crazy eight-year run. He blows up with Butch Cassidy and with downhill racer, right?

Just immediately becomes a megastar. In 73 and 74, he is Jeremiah Johnson, the way we were, the sting, the Great Gatsby, and then they re-release Butch and Sundance kid. And it becomes top 10 again. He has two of the top five in 73 and three of the top 10 in 1974. out of the top 10 movies for two years of rate, five of the 20. And then he does great wild dog pepper,

which is a flawed movie, but I kind of, I don't know, George Roy Hill, I kind of Goldman, I kind of enjoy it, three days of the Condor, and then all the president spent,

he's an EP on that and wins best picture. It's about as good as it gets, man. And when you think of the taste of those movies, holy shit. Incredible. And it's truly like a staggering run because he had that run.

And then in 1980 is when, he starts the directing run. That's when he moves in the ordinary people, Brewbaker, the Natural Out of Africa, Legal Eagles, that's all in seven years. But then also the four movies he directed, the first four. That's a really strong coming out of the gate,

first four movies as a director. And then he has kind of a fun, a little bit drunk 1990s, where he does, River runs through it, makes Brad Pitt a star. That's it. And weirdly passes the torch

because I think there's a lot of Brad Pitt, Robert Redford. Millions of people talked about that. Sneakers. Indecent Proposal, Quiz Show gets nominated, and then up close and personal. And Indecent Proposal is the weirdest movie choice he made. It was the one where you're like,

wow, he's in this, but he had built up so much credibility. And it's Demi Moore and Woody Harrison. We did not rewatch us. I like that movie. But that's another example of a movie that, like, he understood where the, he understood the era he was in.

Yeah. Well, and he also, you never see him. He's not like banging away at Demi Moore in the scene. He understands the era. He understood where we were thinking as a culture about money and sex and men and women. He understood something, surfed it, and made a huge hit. I mean, that's a huge hit movie, right? And it made him culturally relevant or kept them culturally relevant again.

Well, and then Sundance was the other thing. And I think he was really smart about that I'm only going to have this run for so long. I don't get replaced by somebody else. My looks are only going to last for so long. What else can I do? How is can I be entrenched? and that's what leads to Sundance and all the other stuff he did.

And then Sundance, you know, God only knows how many movies broke out of that. And it's easy to say now, like, oh, well, somebody else would have created a Sundance. Well, nobody did. He did. No, that guy put his money where his mouth was. And obviously, if he includes Sundance,

it's very hard right off the top of my head to think of somebody who is on that level. I do think movie star to movie star, you don't even think about the fact that Cruz is like 60 years old or whatever because these guys were making the big valedictory movie when they were in their 60s and Cruz is still just a movie star

like Cruz is the greatest movie star of all to me Cruz is the movie star of all time like Cruz is in 60s now FYI yeah that's I'm saying he's in his 60s he's just been a movie star a whole time so but I that's I don't it's so easy to forget it

because he's still making movies like as though he's 40, but he's not. But that goes to the self-awareness thing, which I would argue Cruz might not have a lot of self-awareness at this point. I don't think he should be doing Mission Impossible anymore. Like, he should be trying to figure out

what's the next thing I can do that more reflects where I'm at in life. And it's like he doesn't want to think about where he is at life, obviously. He just wants to keep being Ethan Hunt. Yeah, though I bet you he has an incredible, someone's saying this the other day, I think it's true that he'll have an incredible kind of character,

actor run, like a Newman-like run soon enough? I hope so. We're running out of time. He's, you know, Newman made the verdict when he was in his early 50s, I think. Maybe he'd have been younger than that. But, but all right. I mean, you know, Tom did Magnolia. I don't know if he wants to open up that side anymore. Well, we'll see. I don't know. Who knows? I just think it's Redford and I think you can make the argument as like Redford and Cruz. you got to put Clint, like, you know, Clint obviously also did a lot in various capacities

that's pretty incredible. Clint's a good one when you talk about like best careers because the fact that he was still directing into his 80s and nine days is nuts. And a lauded, incredible, you know, as a director, like him or not, you kind of can't argue with what he accomplished as a director. It's staggering. And in his own way, and at a time, I mean, you know, he's sort of directed movies way earlier and at a time when, yeah, like you said, they weren't just handed actors movies. So, Clint's a good one for this, too, because I asked Lauren Michaels once, like, what, like hosts you weren't able to get or couldn't get that you would have loved to get.

And Clint was the first one, I think you mentioned. That's great. But it's interesting because Redford never hosted that show either. And it's two guys that always kept the mystique of, I'm a movie star, I'm over here, I carry myself a certain way. I don't, you know, you're only going to get these pieces of me. Well, like Leo, has Leo hosted? Maybe he must have hosted around Rome.

Did he host around Romeo and Juliet or he never hosted? I don't think Leo ever hosted. Right. Because Leo is in that, he's the last one who has mystique, right? He's the last of those movie stars with True. I don't know if you could have mystique like that anymore in the society we have. It's almost like you have to have to be out there connecting in all these different ways. Like you can't just be like, oh, I'll let my work speak for myself.

Who does that? I was thinking about this today when I saw the announcement about the Masters, you know, the Masters allowing Amazon to stream them, making a streaming deal. And at first I was like, whoa, but then I was like, right. Because you know what? Even the Masters realizes, well, we made a deal with CBS at a certain point because everyone was watching television. This is where the world is. We got to go there. So you're probably, you're probably right about that. Maybe that model just doesn't even interest anybody anymore, that level of mystique. The culture When you figure out Rounders 2, it can't just be like Rounders 1.

You've got to use all these different pieces. Rounders 2 is going to have to come from like Sam's kid and then Levine's kid's kid and Pablo will probably fund it finance. I was going to say you have Pablo and Sammy investigating Mike McDee for some sort of Caribbean poker situation. They'll have to fund it with replicants of DNA of Matt and every because by then they'll be able to, they can do any. I mean, they'll do any of it.

Be easy. Sammy came to we did a talk in Cambridge in April and Sammy showed up and I was very touched he was very happy to see you yeah I remember he was very happy

everything else good yeah I'm good I'm uh you know I got I'm dealing with a little appendicitis but see it's the but you were able to pod this era they don't just take it out right away always they go here we're going to bomb you

with antibiotics and then take it out in a few weeks So, yeah, I'm fine. Hopefully my appendix doesn't explode. Well, save your energy for quiz show rewatchables next month because you have my word we're doing it in October. Can't wait. All right, Bill, talk to you soon, buddy. Thanks, Kauffelman.

See you, man. Bye. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Mina and Koppelman. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well. Don't forget, the rewatchables is up for this week. We did Tin Cup, and you can find it where we get your podcast. You can find on the Ringar Movies YouTube channel as well.

I am going to be back on Thursday with another hopefully awesome podcast. I feel like we're two for two this week. Great content. I will see you on Thursday. Must be 21 plus of President's like States for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas our casino or 18 plus in President D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 100 gambler or visit RG-Hashhelp.com. Call 188-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit MD gambling

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