The Bill Simmons Podcast - Wizards Postmortem, the Conference Finals, and the NBA Draft Lottery With Joe House (Ep. 213)

Episode Date: May 16, 2017

HBO and The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Joe House to discuss Game 7 of Celtics-Wizards (02:00), John Wall's performance in the series (07:00), who Scott Brooks trusted (15:00), a rested LeBron in the Eastern Conference finals (30:00), James Harden and the regular-season MVP vote (34:00), the Western Conference finals without Kawhi Leonard (41:00), and Tuesday night's fascinating NBA draft lottery (49:30). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It is 11 o'clock in the morning, East Coast time. I am in Boston, Matt. Joe House is in Washington, D.C. Sorry for the sound quality for this, but I wasn't positive we were going to do a podcast. But Game 7 was fantastic. I don't know if House enjoyed it very much. We have not talked. We texted each other, saved it for the pod. Our teams have played in a playoff series.

My team won game seven and they won because uh a canadian guy who looks like days extra named kelly olenek how much do you hate kelly olenek has it's a it's an 11 out of 10 it is as always just dessert for the last time we connected and discussed kelly olenek i um was very vocal with my disrespect for his game. I have to tell you, my opinion hasn't really changed. He exceeded his point total for games four, five, and six with his performance last night. And in many respects, he was just generic. He was generic Boston bench player number four. I mean, it was all, you know, I mean, it was Olenek just because of karma biting me and Washington in the ass for the extra vitriol that we directed at him through the course of this series. But, you know, it could have been Smart.

It could have been Crowder. It could have been Smart, it could have been Crowder, it could have been Rozier. It didn't really matter that it was Olenek other than the extra sour cherry on top of the Sunday. Well, they left them open. I mean, part of the Wizards' game plan was, we're just going to trap Isaiah at the top of the key

at midcourt over and over and over again and make other guys beat us. And, you know, it was interesting. I don't know how it plays on TV, but in person I really noticed it last night because, you know, I was there. I was sitting in great seats, sitting with my dad. My dad was near heart attacks all the time. But the movement that the Celtics had and how many backdoor layups they got,

how many times they found open guys, was all based on the fact that Washington wouldn't change how they're spending ideas. And it was clear, like, as the series went along, which is one of the fun things about a playoff series, they just kind of figured out how to send guys to the right spot. But Olenek had to hit the shot. And if any Celtics fan knows, you know, two out of three times, he's missing those wide open.

And you go crazy. But last night was the night when they were going in, and you could feel it. And I said to my dad, it was 76-76, 14 minutes left, you had the ball. And I said to my dad, 76-76, 14 minutes left, here we go. And the Celts just went on a run. And one of the reasons they went on a run, I was thinking about you. I was trying not to feel bad.

I wanted to beat you. But Scott Brooks just murdered the game. He left Wall and Beal out there for, I think, the entire second half. And you could see Wall and Beal really getting tired. And Beal especially was exhausted. He'll make a chance, but Wall just went off the deep end. Were you going nuts when you were watching that? I was going nuts with a different aspect of the Brooks rotation.

But I just wanted to do a quick follow-up. So by design, and you just mentioned that the Celtics, you know, as a Celtics fan, Olenek with those open shots is something that two out of three times you're anxious about. You know, I don't think it was a bad design for the Wizards to play Isaiah that way and to force somebody like Olenek to beat them. I think that was a pretty sound game plan, and I don't think the Wizards ought to have any regrets about that scheme. Olenek beat them i think that was a pretty sound game plan and i don't think the wizards ought to have any regrets about that scheme only but here's the thing though it was it was a game plan once it stopped working and that's the thing they just stuck with it and olenek got red hot and at that at some point you just have to kind of audible on the fly right well that was what i thought

the mistake was because i say it was getting worn out on the other end because he was guarding Beal for a lot of the game. He got killed. Carter Porter a couple times got killed. They put him on Wall, and the game was in John Wall's hands for Washington. He had Isaiah Thomas guarding him basically for the last 15 minutes of the game. He couldn't do anything. Well, that's the point. The response for the Wizards wasn't a further defensive adjustment.

It was to beat the Celtics on the offensive end. And the Celtics sagely observed that Wall, as a jump shooter, probably wasn't going to beat them. So they gave him all the room in the world. And Wall did get progressively tired over the course of the second half, and the Wizards did not run any pick-and-roll at all with him and Gortat. It would have the effect of giving Wall the ability to get to the rim and force the rest to try and change his particular contribution to the game. And I don't think that was necessarily a bad mistake either because, you know,

it was right for a little while there to put the ball in Beal's hands and try and ride Beal. And they got all the way to – they were four points down with six minutes left by way of that strategy. And you just needed something from Wall in that last six minutes to, you know, hang right in there and turn it into a single possession game at the end of game. And Wall just didn't have it.

He didn't have the legs for it. And they didn't run any pick and roll. And he didn't go to the rim. And that was it. That was the difference. I mean, they just couldn't crack. They didn't get any closer than the four points. I thought watching him in person, he's going so balls to the wall that he just doesn't pace himself.

And, you know, I think in game two, he got super tired and it really hurt him. And in this game, he just ran out of gas. And that's something, you know, you've got to figure out. You've been watching him forever. He's one of those guys that initially when he came into the league was just either one of two gears at all times, either in fifth gear or first gear. Then he added kind of a third gear this year. But he's got to figure out how to pace himself for these playoff games

because, you know, game seven, it's so intense. Like, the crowd was unbelievable. It really was, you know, a good playoff crowd, 10-20 game if the teams are relatively even. I felt like yesterday the crowd kind of swung the game. And there's so much energy in the building that it wears down the players as the game went along. And that's why it was egregious that Brooks didn't take those guys out. Because you've got to play, you you got to manage a game seven differently. Game seven is different energy version.

It's more grueling. It's like a football game. It's longer, it's more intense. And to ask those guys to play the whole half, I just thought it was crazy. He played 44 minutes last night. Those last two games,

he was 17 for 48, you know, and then he was, uh, eight for 25. I games, he was 17 for 48. And then he was 8 for 25. I mean, were you happy with the series he had other than the three-point shot? Oh, I was very happy with the series he had. They wouldn't have been anywhere. They were in game seven, four points down with six minutes left against the number one seed in the East.

Yeah, I was pretty happy with his series. He had a historical series in terms of the combination of points and assists. Nobody's done the double-digit assist and the number of points that he scored in 30 years or something. I didn't have any problem at all with Wall. The Celtics defended him well.

They defended him properly in the same way that the Wizards defended Isaiah well and defended him well. They defended him properly in the same way that the Wizards defended Isaiah well and defended him properly. And the game had to go to second tier players. My big complaint with, you asked about, you know, the Brooks rotation and did Brooks play Wall and Beal too long? What we're really talking about is a, you know is an organizational problem, an institutional problem. The Wizards began the season with nine new players and a brand new coach. And in a series where you just observed, the teams were so evenly matched. Sean Grandy sent out a great tweet yesterday afternoon that showed all these stats about how evenly matched.

They shot the same percentage from the field. They had the same number of turnovers. I mean, there were a bunch of stats that demonstrated just how even and equal these two teams were. Yesterday, the combination of home court advantage plus the effect of home court on the Celtics bench in particular, and there's this sort of institutional stability, this organizational stability that the Celtics enjoy over the Wizards in terms of guys that they draft and that Stevens kind of grooms and that they play a certain way. They all have a slight irrational confidence at home. It doesn't translate onto the road. But anyone, it's why I said at the very beginning of this, Olenek was

just Celtics bench player number four. It could have been Crowder, who I know is a starter, but it could have been Rogier. It could have been Smart. It could have been any of those guys. And Smart did make a couple of humongous plays last night. But that's cultural. That's organizational.

That's institutional. And the Wizards, I said this last time we talked, they're more talented. They have the better players. They had the best player on the floor for most of those games, but they didn't have any bench whatsoever. Every plus minus that you look at that reflects what happened when anybody from the bench came on the floor, it was grotesque. Last night, the bench was outscored 48 to 5, and all five of those points was Bogdanovich in the first half. And Bogdanovich came out first half. And Bogdanovich

can't hurt anybody. I'm going to hurt your feeling. Go ahead. Not only did I not think John Wall was the best player on the floor, I really thought he hurt you in the series.

I just felt like I always wanted him to shoot. When he took the game winner in game six, I wanted him to take it. I thought it was a terrible shot. The 28-footer

with five seconds left in the shot clock from a guy who was like eight for 25. I mean, if you look at his last five games, he was 39 for 109. He was a 35% shooter for five straight games. It's too many shots. It's too many shots is the point. That doesn't hurt my feelings. I mean, this was the horse that we rode in on.

I didn't want Bradley Beal to shoot, and I've got to be honest. I thought Porter could have been involved more. We couldn't stop him. Well, they don't run any plays for him, which is what makes him so valuable. Anytime Isaiah was on him, Porter could get a layup on him. When Wall had Isaiah on him in the fourth quarter which was basically like the Celtics reached a point in that second half where it was

unclear if they could continue playing Thomas because he just couldn't guard Beal and Beal was in the zone Beal by the way I was thinking about first quarter he hit there in that and we were watching going, wow, moment's a little too big for Bradley.

And then he made a shot and he just kind of locked in. And you know, I think if leaving that series as a Wizards fan, I think that Bill, I mean, you had doubts about whether Bill could come through on the road like that, right? At the very very beginning of this

series, we observed that the best chance for the very, very beginning of this series, we observed that the best chance for the Wizards was going to be a game from Beal where he scored, we said something crazy, like 45 points. But last night was that game. I mean, the Wizards got the very best game out of Beal. They got a great contribution from Porter.

Keefe was a net positive. He was effective. Yeah, he was pretty good. You know, he was within his role. The sub said something smart. Stevens was unbelievable. He kept doing these little tiny things, but they kept trying to have Horford guard Markeith.

And Markeith couldn't do anything against Horford. It didn't always happen, but it was something they hadn't really shown that much. And, you know, they just kept throwing different guys at Markeith and hoping he was going to try to post up, because when he posted up, it really, you know, it was a possession that Bradley Beal wasn't shooting.

But I was so impressed by Beal, because he was exhausted. He was exhausted. You could see it. I mean, he was like, they were a little, like, any time the play stopped, his hands was on his knees feet he just keeps starting to move slow so as well i don't understand why brooke a couple things you know we we've seen great coaches in game seven especially like carlisle is always really good at this the guys who can kind of buy time in certain pockets of the game for their players you know like two minutes less than third quarter, you call timeout,

you come out of it, you call a second timeout a minute later, you're basically buying your guys like eight minutes so they're not actually missing a lot of game time. He wasn't doing any of that, obviously. I really think that to think you can win a game seven on the road playing your backcourt the entire second half is a suicide mission. I don't understand where Oubre was, unless he just thought Oubre was just so mentally out of it that he was like a danger to the team.

So that's the big curiosity, right? This is the thing with Brooks, you know, brand new team for him. You don't know who he trusts in big moments. And I think last night he made the wrong call in a couple of different ways in not showing trust. So Brandon Jennings is the answer to giving Wall some time. And Oubre should have been the guy that gave Beal some time. And he just didn't trust. It's apparent. He didn't trust either Jennings or Oubre enough to put them out there and let them just get by that time.

With Jennings, when he would come in, the Stevens would immediately put Isaiah in because it was all of a sudden now you can hide Isaiah and Jennings on one end and then on the other end, they can't put Jennings on anyone. But it's tough. It's really tough to play young guys in big playoff road games. Like if you look at what happened with the Celtics,

their young guys didn't show up for any of the road games. Jalen Brown was MIA, you know, but put young guys at home. And that's, Stevens was smart. He did that in all four home games. He gave Jalen a lot of run. I thought Jalen was, I thought he made a real difference yesterday. I don't know what his plus minus was, but I guarantee it was good.

Like he, he, he used his athleticism. His D was good. He played with real energy, played with purpose. He was actually moving, you know, when people were shooting. I thought him, Marcus was a stinker in the first half, and then the second half was, you know, that was one of the all-time Marcus games. But this is the thing.

This is the difference between our two teams. It's the slightest of differences, but those role players at home, because of what I'm calling this organizational stability, this grooming that Stevens puts these guys through, what Brooks did yesterday, I don't think it's really fair to criticize him necessarily. He put in guys who've played in the NBA before. So he had a lineup yesterday that really, to me, last night, set the course for when the Celtics really started running downhill, which was Jan Mahinmy, Jason Smith, and Bojan Bogdanovic all played together. I love it.

I have no idea how many minutes they played together this season. I'd be shocked if it was more than 25 minutes that the three of them have been on the floor at the same time this season. But all that Scottie did was default to guys that he knows that have played in NBA games. I'm glad he didn't have Brandon Jennings out there. Oh, you know, Jennings might have been out there as well. But that was really the lineup that had the Celtics running downhill. And that's not Scottie Brooks' fault in this sense. I can't believe they're defending Scottie Brooks like that.

Who should be out there playing? Jason Smith was the minus 13 in three minutes. I watched it. I know. The Celtics went on a 13-3 run in about 35 seconds

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Step up your game. Download CreditWise today. So, did you think you were going to win? There was a point in that third quarter when Isaiah wasn't going at halftime. We went, I saw the J bug at halftime. I was like, like you nervous.

I'm like, Isaiah's not playing. Well, we're not making threes. The Celtics usually don't win when those two things are happening at the same time, but then the same time. But then the game flipped. Why do you think it flipped?

Because Olenek had 14 in the fourth, but he didn't flip the game when it started to flip. It felt like Marcus Smart and Jalen Brown and then a couple Isaiah threes were what flipped it. What did you think happened? The reserves came in. The Wizards put out that lineup. Scotty Brooks had to rest some starters, and he bought time, and the Celtics immediately ripped off. They went 18-3 from three minutes and 30 seconds left in the third quarter

through the first couple minutes of the fourth quarter, an 18-3 run. That was the ballgame. The Wizards were up six. They were up 70-64. The Celtics kind of expectedly battled back, got to 76-76. You mentioned that point in the game. You said 14 minutes left, 76-76. I actually thought the Wiz had a good chance at winning because I thought that Wall had a superstar performance saved up for the fourth quarter. The run that the Celtics went on proved insurmountable,

even with the battle back. I mean, the Wiz battled all the way back to got it to a four-point game with six and a half minutes left. But it took too much out of him, and Wall did not have anything left. It became apparent. He kept taking those jumpers, and they kept hitting the front of the rim, and that was it. John Wall, you know, if you're going to be one of the great porn stars,

I need you to perform a couple times a day on the shoot. You can't just come in and be in one shoot and be like, I'm done, I'm winded. I need you to go to multiple locations. He's been to multiple locations. No, John Wall's one and done-er. No, no, this is the done her. No, no. This is the hard thing about this Wizards team.

He and, he and Beal both were superhuman. They were on all locations with, with, with all actresses all season long.

It required a superhuman effort for them to get the 49 win. Yeah. Well, I still think there's a slight power struggle

with those two guys. And, and I'm not, I'm think there's a slight power struggle with those two guys. And I'm not saying that I don't know what their relationship is like off the court, but I think at some point that Wizards have to decide whose team that is and whether it makes sense in any situation for John Wall to take 109 shots in the last five playoff games. I would say no. I would say just as somebody who rooted against him for seven games, he's a fantastic, devastating transition guy.

That any time, all they did those last few games was just try to stay in his way when he's in transition. He's an okay three-point shooter if he's wide open, and he's good coming off the pick and rolls in either dishing or driving. But his offensive game, for how many years he's been in the league, it's just not that sophisticated. Whereas Beal is just like, I mean, Beal is Ray Allen. I think that's the kind of career he's going to have.

Beal is a guy who's going to score 27, 28 a game. You have to remember, though, Beal, you observed the deer in the headlights look in the first quarter for Beal. And the concern was that you watched the first three games in Boston. Beal didn't really show up. He was kind of there for a portion of game two, but he had a terrible shooting night except for eight points in the fourth quarter that did help close the gap a little bit. Isn't he like 23? He's 23. This is the thing. Wall is 26. Beal is 23.

Porter is right in there as well. I mean, it's a nice young nucleus. The problem with my guys, we have $30 million committed to guys that really shouldn't play in the league anymore. I mean, Gortat and Mahinmi don't really have a role in the NBA. Mahinmi is a perfectly fine backup center who should make $4.5 million a year. Unfortunately, we're paying him $16 million. That was horrible. And especially, you know, so many teams overpaid centers last year, and the market cratered right after it happened. You can get those guys for free now.

Corey Todd, I'm a little higher on than you because I've never seen anyone set more moving picks that weren't called in my life. Obviously, I don't know whether the refs feel bad for him or what's going on, but I actually thought his moving picks were really helping Beal get open. It was phenomenal to watch in person. He's using his hands. He's shoving guys. He did have a couple shoves. It was really impressive. So, a couple things from behind the scenes last night.

The Buck, the J-Buck, one of my favorite – I'm laughing already. He was sitting literally behind the Wizards bench for game 5 and game 7 close enough to repeatedly yell at them for most of game 5

to the point that Scott Brooks alerted security and was upset because the guy was interrupting him during the timeout. That was the J-book. So that was happening. Then Game 7, they were so concerned about the buck that they were pointing to security before the game, trying to get him to watch him. So the bug had to be in his best behavior.

But the bug wanted me to tell you that any high-level NBA coach who's that concerned about the bug during a Muslim playoff game probably has some flaws. That was the bug's takeaway. I mean, there has some flaws. That was the Bucs' takeaway. I mean, there was a lot of observation in the Twitter sphere about reminding everybody of Scotty Brooks' playoff limitations, especially rotation. I got a lot of Kendrick Perkins tweets last night.

Yeah, he's pretty inflexible. I definitely think Stephen definitely, if you flip the coaches, probably wins the series. Can we agree on that? It's tough to say. The home court thing was a big deal. Again, I go back to this

institutional stability thing. Just the fact that even Jalen, right? Jalen Brown's already bought into that Celtics way in terms of hard-nosed defender. You have a bunch of guys that are all kind of hard-nosed defender, shoot three kind of guys. And that's obviously by design.

So I don't know if you flip the coaches. It definitely was the case that Stevens had something for everything that Scottie put out there and immediately took advantage any time that the bench came out in any kind of force for Washington. Stevens immediately took advantage of it. I mean, we knew this from going in, though. The Wizards began the season with a historically bad bench, and at the end of the season, it was that bad bench that cost them the seven-game series. I was scared of Bogdanovich, and I know that the lineup, you know,

they had trouble hiding him on defense, all that stuff, but I didn't feel like he was scared. He made that one shot over Rozier that was just like one of those shots that you make when you've played in like a thousand big playoff games in weird foreign countries that you're just not scared. And I thought that was the one guy he could have played more. I would have figured out how to stagger him. I would have tried. I also think they could have gone small because it's not like we rebound anyway. I wouldn't have played Mahinmy at all. Oubre, that's it.

Mahinmy shouldn't have played one single minute. He was an absolute disaster every second he was on the floor. He took something off the table every second he was on the floor. If Oubre and Bogdanovich had gotten those Mahinmy minutes, I just would have been interested in seeing it. I mean, the length of Oubre and his ability to scoot around screens, I mean, that was part of the thing that Olenek got so much space because Gortat kept going underneath the screen.

I'm not killing Gortat. It was by design to give Kelly those open shots, but I just would have been interested in seeing if Oubre could have got up quicker to him. It gave him a little bit more to think about. The Buggs' other takeaway from being behind the bench was that he thinks the Wizards and Celtics are going to have a nice little rivalry the next few years. He was like, we're going to be seeing those guys every year. I hope he's right. You get that going for your house.

I hope he's right. Is there a way to figure out Jan Mendy to leave for Europe? Can you convince a European team to buy his contract? I mean, there's got to be a trade out there.

Don't the kings need a center? Can't we trade with the king? I would trade him immediately. $16 million for Jan is pretty rough.

Why did they do that? It was weird when it happened. Why did they do that? When it happened when it happened. Why did they do that? When it happened, you were horrified. I mean, the idea was like, we're going to have a shop blocker. We're going to have a rim protector, I guess. That was the idea.

Is there a bigger drop-off in the history of basketball than that was Kevin Durant's money and it went to Jan Mahenny? That was not Kevin Durant's money. It's not fair to call it that. Well, I mean, hypothetically. Quick break to talk about massages. Everyone loves massages, but it's always hard to book one. Well, what if you could book a five-star top-quality massage at a time that works for you in the most convenient place of all? Your home.

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Speaking of massages, the Cavs are minus 700 against the Celtics in the conference finals. Is that line too high or too low? Sounds about right to me. That's too advanced? That's the line to advance? I can't remember a team that didn't have home court advantage being a bigger favorite than that. That has to be a record. That's a great point.

The 71 favorites didn't even have home court. That's a great point. I'm trying to think about it. Did the Spurs? No. I'm proud of that. I've never heard of it. home court. That's a great point. I'm trying to think about it. Did the Spurs? No. I'm proud of that. I've never heard of it. It's going to be a hard one.

Maybe the Lakers? There's no 2001 Patriots potential with this, right? Is this like the all-time nobody believes in us scenario? No. No? Not really? Not happening? I don't think so.

Your team probably would have had a better chance. Your team would have probably had a better chance. I agree with that. I'm not counting out my team, but, you know.

It's a bad matchup. Here's the thing. Yeah, it's a terrible matchup. But the Celtics are good at home. And they have four But the Celtics are good at home. And they have four of the seven games they're at home. So, I don't know.

I'd be super disappointed if they go six or seven. Maybe they can't be super disappointed then. I mean, the best you can hope for is winning one game, one of these home games. Try to answer this question without getting me fired. How is LeBron getting better? I just don't understand it. I know the rules have moved his way.

I wrote about it on Friday. I wrote a column about it on LeBron. The spacing, the science, the geometry of it, it's all moved in his favor. It's great. I don't understand how he's getting stronger, faster, it's all moved in his favor. It's great. I don't understand how he's getting stronger, faster, better. I just don't. It's year 14. There should be signs of attrition at this

point. Now he's got nine days rest and he's going to waltz into Boston. Yeah, you're right. Why should I be optimistic? The guy's playing about as well as he's ever played. He rope-a-doped us this season. He did. as he's ever played. He rope-a-doped us this season. He did. He and Ty

Lou both, they rope-a-doped us. For whatever reason, and I still don't understand it, he led the league in minutes through like the first 35 or 40 games and then he basically put it on cruise control for 46 games.

There were 23 and 23 over the last 46. And that was the right move was absolutely the, the, the correct, uh, approach for, for, for Cleveland. And, you know, they, they pick up another couple of spare parts along the way. Darren Williams can play all of a sudden again. And I, you know, he's now had this playoff, um, run in addition to the nine days, you know, that he just got. Didn't he get some incredible amount of rest after the first series as well? I mean, before the first series?

Yeah, he's gotten a ton of rest. Yeah. It's terrible. It really makes me unhappy. He's so rested. We have to quickly talk about a couple things here. One is, both of us wanted to vote for... We both wanted, even though I know you had a little money in Harden. I had money on Kawhi also.

I had money on everybody. You spread it around. I did. As just NBA fans, we wanted LeBron to lay this back down for another MVP season, just for history's sake. Well, because it was going to validate the finals performance from the previous season. That was the main reason to me. Yeah. And also, he's the best player in the league and the guy that we picked when the aliens

landed and all that stuff. So he'd be the first call. And it's in this year where it was like Westbrook's MVP candidacy was so hard to talk ourselves into. Harden was, you know, wins was the biggest factor for him, but they barely got to the mid-50s. Kawhi just was an advanced metrics argument. It was hard to talk. I wanted LeBron to be the pick. And then the team went in the tank.

And he kind of left an MVP in the table, but now it's not going to matter because he's going to go into the finals running on all cylinders. The Harden thing, though. Oh, man. Now I feel terrible about that vote. I feel awful about it. Unless you had a question.

I disagree with feeling bad about that vote. The people that should feel bad are all the hoops perverts that voted for Westbrook who managed to lead his team to a single

playoff game victory. And I defy anybody. Go into the history, the annals of the NBA history books, and find me a league MVP who led his team to a single playoff victory.

You perverts. That's the guy that, that I think you, you know, folks properly should feel bad about. Well, Moses didn't make the playoffs one year. So he's,

he's the standard. What year was that? It was like 81. They don't 81, 82. Nobody knew people barely. like the third year after the media started voting for the MVP. And basketball wasn't on television. That's 35 years ago.

Basketball wasn't on television. People were just looking at boxcars voting for the MVP. And they went 40 and 42 and he won. He did have like a 31 andcars voted for the MVP. And they went 40 and 42, and he won. He did have like a 31 and 15, just for the record. It wasn't like a work of a game. You know, the 35 years ago stuff doesn't really carry much water for me. But in any event, the hardest thing is most curious. I actually read some Houston newspapers. I listened to Chris Vernon's podcast with, um, the gentleman from, uh, the sports radio in Houston, whose name Sean, um, I'm sorry,

I can't remember your last name, Sean, but it was a very good podcast. And what was super revealing to me was that the people of Houston, the player that they like the best on that Houston team is not James Harden. It's Patrick Beverly. Because they feel like Beverly is, you know, he better fits that Houston ethos is what I'll say. Like, you know, you have J.J. Watt there with the football team. You have Altuve, the Astros baseball dude, and Harden doesn't fit the profile of those guys, exactly. So Beverly is the guy. And I'm mad I didn't think of this before the playoffs, but so be it. You live and you

learn. I think the Rockets were like those football teams that we watch in the NFL that have some sort of offensive gimmick that works really well in the regular season and everybody puts up huge stats and it's really fun to watch. But you don't really take them seriously in January. Cold weather, you know, it's kind of come down to the basics. At that point, these weird, you know, like the run and shoot, it's not working. Or like the Buffalo Bills offense, not working in January and February.

And I wonder if the Rockets were like that because they're so, so conditioned, just freezing free throws. And that's their whole game plan. You know, and that's it. That's all they want. We, we, gambled on it. And we observed before the series started that they had a great chance to beat the Spurs. And we weren't wrong.

They had a great chance to beat the Spurs. But here's why we were wrong. Because as the series went along, the Spurs just said, we're going to give you long twos. Here you go. We're playing everyone on the line. We're not letting anyone drive. And you can have all the foul line jumpers you want.

And the Rockets could not audible. They didn't have like a second way to be like, oh, you're going to give us this? Let's just take this. You get to the playoffs. You got to take what's there. You can't just be like, we're playing our system. This is what we are. Well, I can't believe I'm going to say this.

What? It changed when Nene got hurt. The series changed when Nene got hurt. That's the thing. You're right. Because playing Ryan Anderson at center. But the thing is, they had Harrell. Harrell had 10 minutes for them in the regular season.

That's what I think. But I just thought they were too predictable at the end of the game. You know, everyone's just standing around, heart is dribbling. We went crazy watching it, you know? It was brutally bad watching that game five, the end of the game. It hurt my eye. And the other thing is, to rely on somebody the way they relied on him, and for OKC to rely on Westbrook the way they relied on him. And for OKC to rely on Westbrook the way they relied on him,

at some point, it's almost too big of a burden, the way these playoff games go. I thought Harden was either he was concussed or he was just dead by game six. But he was so bad in game six. That was like, that's going to go to the Pantheon. Do we think that's going to be one of the worst playoff games? It's on the short list. It's with like Rick Barry,

1976, Scotty Pippen, my great game and LeBron in 2011. Like it's on the fucking short list. I wondered if he quit on the Antony. I wondered if nothing, I, what's the explanation?

He, maybe the injury, maybe something will come out in six weeks about him. He got hit. Now they'll never admit it. I, what's the explanation? He, maybe the injury, maybe something will come out in six weeks about him. He got hit. Now they'll never admit it. I, I swear. I think I never said when it happened, I was, cause he's had a concussion before. That's the red flag for me. Cause you know, I got knocked out when I was 16 and, um, anytime I get hit in the head, I'm not the same.

It takes me like two days to recover. And it's just like, once you've had one, your brain, when you get hit in the head, it's just not the same. And I wonder if he got his egg scrambled a little bit because watching him pass up wide open shots and all the shit he did. But anyway, like I was thinking, it's just so hard to win when you're asking one guy to do everything. And really only two guys have ever done it, LeBron and MJ, have ever won a title doing that.

You know, even like Kobe. People point to Kobe in 2009 and 2010. It's like, those teams are really good. He had Pau Gasol and Andrew Bynum on his team and a bunch of great shooters, and he didn't have to do everything. And his stats in the 2009 finals and the 2010 finals were not that great. Pau was the difference maker there. I thought Pau should have won the 2010 finals MVP.

He was the most reliable guy they had then. What I can't wait to see is the backlash. Next year's MVP race and the vote is going to be incredible. Because there's going to be a real backlash against this thing that you're talking about right now, which is individual players just, you know, leading the team and how that doesn't translate into any kind of postseason success. It's really hard to win when you just have the one guy.

And, you know, LeBron found that out the last two years in Cleveland. Harden found that out. Westbrook's going to keep finding that out. And it's probably, you know, the biggest reason Durant went to Golden State, because I think he's a really smart basketball mind who saw it the right

way, and he saw it Durant. Like, Sunday's game, it's a bummer that Kawhi and Zaza turned into the story from that game because for me, the story was they're down 23, and I know Kawhi had hurt. I know it's on the momentum,

but I was sitting there watching it, waiting for them to come back, regardless of what happened to Kawhi, because they have Kevin Durant, Steph Curry in their team, and you just figured one of them was going to get hot. Curry was amazing in that third quarter, you know? And then Durant took over the fourth quarter. And that's like, that's why they're one of the great teams of all time. There's three teams in the history of the NBA that have had two guys that could alternate

quarters like that who are at the very, very, very, very, very top of their game, you know? It's completely effed up that Kawhi got hurt and they went on that run. I can't get past that. I'm not giving the Warriors super-duper credit. The Spurs had their number. If Kawhi played that whole game, the Spurs win. And I'll go to my grave believing that.

They were beating their ass. They were beating their ass. I think the Warriors it's just too hard to beat them when those two guys play well. They weren't playing that well. Kawhi had, you know, he was playing free safety on the perimeter. It was incredible. Yeah, too bad.

Did you think, I was 60-40 when it happened, and now I'm like 75-25. That's some of God's last history. And also, Hench made a good point, my buddy Hench. I was thinking back to playing basketball. And people, you know, when we used to play before we became retired old white guys, if somebody shot a jump shot

and somebody ran under them so that their feet landed on the defender, it probably would have caused a fight. There would have been a fight. Of course there would have been a fight. Everybody knows that. You just don't do it. You just don't do it.

So that made me think, because I was watching, maybe you didn't think, when Hench said that, I was like, yeah, you're right. You don't do that under any circumstances. It's why Al Horford's a cheater.

See, that one, I don't feel the same way. You can feel however you want to feel. Hey, we're going to talk about the latter really quickly. But first, I want to tell you about the BlackTux.com. They look great for a wedding or a special event the easiest it's ever been. With high-quality rental suits and tuxedos delivered to your doorstep, the BlackTux is giving guys a new way to rent. They offer free home try-ons.

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Get $20 off your purchase. Print a new way to rent Tuxedo's event. That's theblacktux.com slash BS. So we think the Spurs are done. I'm a firm believer if you should have won a game on the road when you don't have home court, don't win it, it becomes almost impossible. I mean, the Wizards found out.

If Bradley Beal doesn't allocate their shot in game two, you probably win the series in game six, right? Probably win in game six, you're right. A real wild card for the Spurs, obviously, is Kawhi. Can he come back? It was weird seeing him hurt. It was almost like, it reminded me

of Terminator 2 when Schwarzenegger, the robot is like, he's lost his legs, he's just kind of crawling. So, you know, it was like, seeing Kawhi mortal

was kind of shocking. And he almost didn't, he didn't get hurt the way normal people get hurt. Like, he wasn't rolling around the ground. He was just trying to get up. Yeah.

And his robot body wasn't cooperating. I felt bad for him. Well, I want him to get up. I want him to be out there even if it's all in one leg. Nobody ever, you know, everyone's blaming Daza. Nobody mentioned his teammates who tripped him the first time. It hurt the leg five minutes before. I thought that was great.

Well, I love Popovich getting mad at him, but it's great. That was the best. I mean, Pop, nobody does it better. That was for his team. He's standing up for his team. It was almost like he had written down a monologue and memorized it like Philip Seymour Hoffman

in his 92nd monologue. It was a wonderful performance. I actually believe that he did that. It did, it felt very much like a script, and I, you know, it was an excellent performance by him. But that was for his team, right? That was for his guys to believe. Now they have nobody

believed in us, and we've been done dirty. That's pretty powerful. Yeah. Do you know Jonathan Simmons the agent he's he's a the most interesting

two guys to me for the Spurs are Simmons and Dedman why can't Dedman get more time I don't understand why

I mean that's somebody you guys could have signed into the Jan Mahindic I don't want to hear it you could have signed him for less

than 60 million dollars I promise that hurts my to hear it. You could have signed him for less than $60 million a year, I promise. That hurts my feelings. He could have been like $5 million a year. God. God. Damn.

To anybody. Simmons, to me, I was down with O'Connor and Jark about this on Monday. I have no idea what his pre-agency values were. He might sign with them for

two years, $8 million. And we wouldn't be surprised. He could also sign with Brooklyn for like $90 million. And I don't know if I would be surprised by that either. I don't know what his pre-agency feeling is. Would you rather have him or Tyler Johnson? Would you rather have him or feeling is. Would you rather have him or Tyler Johnson?

Would you rather have him or Garrett Temple? Would you rather have him or what's that kid? Or Alan Crabb. What about Alan Crabb? $70 million for Alan Crabb. Right.

Here's the thing. We've watched Jonathan Simmons play huge in big playoff games that were on national TV. On both that, we've watched him guard James Harden, watch him create his own shot. We watched him make three pointers.

I don't understand why that's somebody that, you know, all these teams have cast this kind of looking at everyone's looking for three and D guys. And this is also somebody

who can drive to the rim and play defense at the highest level. I don't know. He's a sleeper. I have a feeling. Spurs would sign and trade auto Porter. I think I could get an auto Porter sign and trade for Jonathan Simmons.

Yeah. I don't know that they don't have the sign and trade. I would not give up auto Porter. I know that it's a real conundrum. Somebody's going to offer him $20 million. And I think my, my team has to match it. You got to match it.

The problem is he disappears sometimes. Like game six. If I ran the Wizards and maybe that day is coming when you and I are put in charge of the GMs of the Wizards and I run out of something I would just study game seven

like it was the Pruder phone and try to figure out who was scared and who wasn't scared. And whoever I could come at, I'd watch that tape, and I'd go, all right, Otto Porter, count on him. Just start from there. You start backwards. Who are my guys on this team that looked like they wanted to be in that game? Then you go from there.

All right, lottery. I did the lottery karma power ranking. You did. It's kind of an inexact sign because I'm not totally sure how to determine what the karma gods look for. But I do think it's a combination of

did you handle your business the right way? Are you in desperate need of a break? Does your fan base need this? Would other fan bases secretly kind of be happy for you that you finally had something good happen? But then you also have the organizational

malpractice part that should hurt your karma. Like with Sacramento, where they've just been so incompetent for so long, it's like you shouldn't be rewarded for your incompetence. And yet in this column, I gave the Knicks the top spot, even though you could argue that

they've had the same work position on confidence. Now the catch is, they were a second-round playoff team four years ago. So it's not, like Sacramento hasn't been in the playoffs in 13 years. You know, and... I think the Knicks still have a couple more years of being punished for Phil Jackson's arrogance. I don't think they're quite at the point. They haven't been broken all the way down.

Jackson still has a job. He needs to get fired before the karma gods will start to look favorably upon them. Yeah, I should have batted this calm around, dude, because I feel bad for the Knicks fans. I do feel like they've hit rock bottom. Sure. That was driving me for that. But I'm already having second thoughts. Because I think Denver has a really good case for being number one.

Just from handling their business, for the most part, the right way. Making the honest efforts, the playoffs, stuff like that. And then I think I should have ranked Dallas higher. I didn't rank Dallas higher because they've had so much success in the 2000s and then they won the title in 2011. They spent a lot of money. But, you know, I feel like they've had an honest effort to compete this year. And they do everything the right way and they try to win.

They never try to bottom out. They're always trying to seek some sort of advantage. And I think that was the one I underrated. Who did you think I underrated the most? Honestly, this is going to sound bizarre. I think Sacramento, I can't even really say it with a straight face, but I think they deserve a break. They kind of won that bookogie trade. I think in retrospect,

the Pelicans pick is going to translate into something. I'm rooting for something completely irrational and unexpectedly good to happen to Sacramento. And I don't have

an explanation for it, but I, you know, they, the parting with boogie is such a, a title change in their overall fortunes. I'm hoping that that gives them something to, to, you know, build off of. I was thinking about Boogie last night because... I still want him in Washington, by the way.

Well, I mean, that's the thing. If you let him in that game, you win. It opens up the entire floor. You can go inside, outside with him and deal. And, you know, you're probably two years away, right?

Doesn't he have two years left on his deal? So you gotta... Assuming he stays in New Orleans. He's not staying there. That's not gonna work with those two guys. I agree.

My guess would be that eventually he ends up on your team if I had to make a wager. That would be my expert opinion. What about the Lakers? Is there any chance they don't get a top three pick? I'm going to say 0%. It feels like a hot ping pong ball thing. One of the ping pong balls has a little more air in it. They, you know, the technology is such that you can definitely affect,

if we can deflate the footballs, you can definitely do something to a ping pong ball to cause, you know, some number of them to rise quicker than others. And if that, if there's any, you know, the ideal gas law or whatever you want to say, if you, you know, to say, I would fill up a couple of those balls with farts, and one of those fart balls would be the one that the Lakers have popped at the top. To be fair, that would be a massive fraud. Oh, okay. I think it's actually illegal for the NBA to do that.

If you say so. Yeah. And plus, after they fixed the 1985 ladder, I mean, can you really go back to the... Oh, no, you definitely can't. I theorized in the piece that, you know, if they ended up with Lonzo, maybe that's not a great thing for them. Now you're dealing with his dad. His dad's running a show, you're kind of letting the LeVar Ball humor kind of grow from within. I disagree with that.

The most important thing for Ball is to play well. And his dad's not going to do anything to alter, you know, all of this grandstanding right now is perfectly timed and perfectly placed. And it's exactly what he should be doing in this crazy age of brand building and all the other nonsense. It's the illogical conclusion to an irrational moment in terms of, you know, athletes and the media. But when you strap them on, the kid's got to go play because all this stuff doesn't mean a lick if the kid can't play. So I think the dad, I think it's a fair gamble, and especially in L.A. Because, you know, L.A. will only indulge it for half a minute before, you know, the

whole city comes down on the dad if he has any kind of negative impact at all on the kid's development. So I think L.A. is the best place for them. It is an unbelievable combo with not just they would lose this pick, but then the added kicker of losing the 2019 pick to Orlando. It's the most fascinating lottery moment we've had since LeBron in 2003, where Memphis either won the first pick and kept them or they lost the pick. This is even better because, you know, this draft is really deep at the top.

I think this has a chance to be one of the all-timers of the century. And to just sit that out, to not get a guy, not to get anyone, but then also to not have a pick two years from now. It just completely changes the course of your franchise. So I would say they are the number one topic of interest to me.

And then number two is Philly, which, you know, they did everything correctly and they have it. They basically are locked into two top seven picks, assuming everything falls their way. But also because they have Sacramento's pick swap, they have like almost a 15% chance of getting the top pick. And, you know, they might have a powerhouse in eight hours for the tape of this Mordegese Coast time. But eight and a half hours from now, Philly might get the powerhouse.

They might have like the first and fourth pick for this draft. I'm rooting for it. I'm fine with that. I don't have any problem with that. They should get one of those fart balls. I like, you know, we need Joel Embiid to play. We need to see him. The 30 games was so tantalizing.

We need to see Sarich. We need to see Simmons. We need to see whoever they acquire here. It's important for the East to have another up-and-coming team. We really have a great opportunity with Milwaukee and the Greek Freak and the little nucleus that they've put together there. But let's have another great young team here in the East to make the East exciting again.

Yeah, the East is really in trouble because it looks like Toronto has now become, it was first the Pacers kind of plateaued too low. And now it's the, that's the Raptors, which is kind of,

what do you do? You're not anywhere close to LeBron. Kind of had your window. Now you're going to pick Kyle Lowry. So you're right. Milwaukee is the next one, but Milwaukee's got to be able to satisfy it. You have Milwaukee and Miami on the come-up. Miami is the always star cars for free agents.

The thing is, is Miami really on the come-up, though? They don't have the franchise creator guy. They played well. They have a very good organization, but they still need a guy. It's got to be somebody. That's true. Miami would be... If Miami won the lottery, which they won't because they have

the lowest percentages, but that would be the biggest game-changer, I think. The thing to keep an eye out for them is if they crack the top 10, because it feels like there's 10 guys that could be game changers. If one of those Kentucky kids falls down into like the 7, 8, 9, 10. Falls down past 10. People are going to talk themselves out of a couple of these guys.

I think Malik Monk is somebody that could drop further than he should. But one of the point guards will drop just because everybody doesn't need a point guard. You know, you got six top 10 point guards in this draft. It's on our top 11 point guards. And it's like, not everybody's going to want a point guard.

People are going to want, you know, all types of positions. So there's also, nobody's really talked about this, but there's some serious trade-off potential too. You know, like, let's say some serious trade-off potential too. Oh. You know? Like,

let's say Philly gets five and seven. The Celtics got one. The Celtics flip one for five and seven. I think Ainge would too. I think Ainge would too. I think it's in play. Especially if you feel like, you know,

you really like the team you have. and you're just trying to add assets. I'd rather have two cracks at the top seven because if we're going over here, the best guy in the draft isn't necessarily the guy who was drafted with the first pick. Well, your team, at the end of this Cleveland series, the exit interview for your team, it's a really weird juncture. You'll know what pick or picks you have, and you'll have a general sense of who you're going to acquire. And you know that you're going to pay IT, the little guy, a max. Where does your team go? The series with Washington demonstrated how role-player reliant they are. Yeah.

And IT, you know, it's a vulnerability to have him as the sole option. Horford was a nice complimentary piece, but, like, you need another dog. You need another dog in Boston. It's the Jay Crowder spot. Nice guy. I agree. Good teammate. My It's the Jay Crowder spot. Nice guy. I agree. Good teammate. My dad's least favorite Celtics this season.

He was 6th on one guy in the Celts. It's like a dad thing to do. You're 6th in the one guy. But, you know, there's a chance they're going to get Gordon Hayward. And that's another thing with this week that the Celtics are having on Thursday the All-NBA team's come out and if Gordon Hayward doesn't get 13 All-NBA it becomes

a lot more reasonable for him to be leaving nearly as much money on the table by not staying there and you know if you just flip Jay Crowder for Gordon Hayward that's kind of a dramatic difference. It's pretty good.

It's an improvement. I think it's an improvement. And then if you pick, let's say, Fultz or let's say, I don't know, Darren Fox, De'Aaron Fox or Dennis Smith, whoever. You just put them in the Rozier spot. And you're getting next year, you're getting 15, 16 minutes a game from your fourth guard, who was a top four pick in a loaded draft.

Flip Crowder into Hayward. You know. The kid who helped the Celtics the most on paper is this kid Jonathan Isaac from Florida State. He's 6'11". He rebounds. on paper is this kid Jonathan Isaac from Florida State freshman he's uh 6'11 he rebounds

he jumps he's like the classic you know long energy guy which is what they need like you saw

in the Celtics series like the guy they don't have the 6'11 guy who's just running in and playing above the rim I watched uh

Florida State in the NCAA tournament and was wholly underwhelmed by them. Yeah. Well, he might be the sixth pick, so I don't think it's going to matter. The subs can't drop lower than fourth. The big moment today will be if nobody moves and we get to that fourth envelope, or we get to the fourth or fifth envelope and that lakers logo comes up all bets are off because that lakers logo comes off oh the fart ball oh the fart ball if the fart ball comes up five for the lakers that's it the uh it's gonna be uh it's gonna

be amazing magic whatever face magic makes good or bad is going to be a gift for the next 20 years. If they win, he's going to have the biggest Magic Johnson smile of all time. If they lose, he'll have the, it's okay, it's okay, Magic Johnson smile. It's going to be tremendous. The Celtics had a lot of trouble trying to prepare. You made the right call. It's a shame that Billy King couldn't be convinced. Well, they've been through a lot of lotteries,

and they've been unlucky with different people. And they actually wanted Paul Pierce to go, but he was working for ESPN for the Western Finals. Who were they sending? They're sending the owner, Wick Grossback. Oh, yeah, I thought I saw that. Yeah. I would have sent David Ortiz. That's a pretty good one. they're sending the owner with gross back oh yeah I saw that yeah I I would have sent

David Ortiz that's a pretty good one yeah it's pretty good he just put that big happy smile on his face would have won I just would have felt

more confident if he was sitting there representing us but uh yeah the PD's gotta help too I didn't appreciate that at all.

All right, we're wrapping up. Thanks to CreditWise from Capital One. It's a free app that lets you track the factors that make up your credit health using information from your TransUnion credit report. You can check it anytime without negatively impacting your credit. Download CreditWise today. Thanks to the BlackTux.com. They'll help you create your look or choose from tons of styles.

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slash BS. Don't forget about Larry Wilmore's new podcast, Black on the Air. Get $20 off your free gift again. That's theblacktux.com. Don't forget about Larry Wilmore's new podcast, Black on the Air. Don't forget about Cousin Sal's new podcast, Against All Odds. Jimmy Kimmel coming on that podcast this week. Don't forget about House's podcast. What's the name of that podcast, House? The Checkhouse! A little bit of a quiet period in golf right now.

We have a great show coming up in about 10 days. I'm not going to reveal who the guest is going to be, but we'll be talking about the Memorial. And we just finished the Players' Championship. The course won the championship. I think the 17th hole on Sawgrass is my favorite non-Augusta hole in any course. I played it in March. I played all day. I hit two balls in any course. I played it in March. I could watch people play it all day.

I hit two balls in the water. I made it seven. It's the iconic video game course of all time in the 90s. Oh, sure. I think it was called PGA Tour in 93 or 94, one of those. Songgrass, that was it.

Time to nut up on 17. I've never been in a hole quite like that. Don't forget to check out TheRinger.com. My lottery column about power rankings are up.

Read that there. You can also read the column I wrote about Isaiah and LeBron from a few days ago. Joe House. Yeah. People were worried

our friendship would survive, which made both of us laugh. Yeah, well, I owe you a big meal now. I mean, obviously, we're going to break bread and get all good again. Yeah, you do owe me a big meal. That's all right.

We'll get it done at some point. Thanks for coming on. I'll talk to you soon. All right. All right. I don't have.