The Bill Simmons Podcast - Zion’s Murky NOLA Future With Justin Verrier. Plus, Kenny Smith on Giannis vs. Hakeem.

Episode Date: July 28, 2021

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by Justin Verrier to discuss the New Orleans Pelicans, including recent acquisitions Steven Adams and Eric Bledsoe heading to the Grizzlies for Jonas Valanciunas, rumors of Zion Williamson being unhappy with the team (and parallels to the early signs of Anthony Davis's departure), fake Pelicans trades, and more (2:35). Then Bill is joined by Kenny "The Jet" Smith to discuss the upcoming NBA draft, parallels between Giannis Antetokounmpo's title win with the Bucks and Hakeem Olajuwon's mid-'90s Rockets, the slew of Ben Simmons trade rumors, how the Warriors might use their draft capital, and more (49:25). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kenny Smith and Justin Verrier Producer: Kyle Crichton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Must be legal drinking age. We're also brought to you by TheRinger.com as well as the Ringer Podcast Network. Put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night. Me and Van Lathan broke down The Bodyguard with Whitney Houston and Kevin Costner. A movie that featured the biggest movie soundtrack

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about what the hell is going on with the Pelicans and what a strange decade it's been and how history might be repeating itself there. AD first, now Zion. So, a lot to cover and uncover on that one. And then our friend Kenny Smith came in to talk about lessons from the finals, the 1987 draft that he was in once upon a time, and a whole bunch more good stuff. Speaking of the NBA, Thursday, we're going to be going all out, me and Rosillo and KOC. We're going to put up a multi-part podcast during the draft that day.

A little bit like what we did with the trade deadline and a couple other times where we're basically putting up parts in 35 to 40 minute installments that could just go right up. They'll be easily titled so you'll know what's coming. And that's how we're going to do it.

So stay tuned on Thursday. A lot of action on this feed. Can't wait. It's all next, first. So stay tuned on Thursday. A lot of action on this feed. Can't wait. It's all next. First, our friends from Pearl Jam. All right, we have the NBA draft coming on Thursday. Justin Barrier is here. He works for a great website called TheRinger.com. He is one of the hosts of The Ringer NBA show. Once upon a time, years ago, covered the New Orleans Pelicans,

lived in New Orleans. And right now they are in a weird Groundhog Day NBA movie, repeating all the same mistakes they did with Anthony Davis, which you wrote about on TheRinger.com. I want to really dive into this because I think it's an important story for a variety of reasons. You have a small market team that just keeps shooting itself in the foot with really shaky ownership the entire time. You have a potential Pantheon player or borderline Pantheon in Zion who has a chance to maybe someday do what we just saw Giannis do. And yet everybody assumes he's going to resign there out of his rookie deal because that's what always happens.

We've never seen somebody say, you know what, I'm actually not going to do that. I'm getting out of here now. I'm going. And then you see like the same mistakes that not only New Orleans made with Davis, but Cleveland made in the mid 2000s with LeBron, where it's like this quick fix.

We got to be good right away. We're just worried. We're worried about this invisible time clock hanging over us years from now over actually trying to build something around him. How did they not learn from everything that just happened with Anthony Davis here? Yeah. In the broad sense, I feel like things have changed, right? There's enough signs that things are a little bit different from when AD was there for his seven years. The big thing, as I wrote about, was that they have options now because of all the picks they got for Davis, all the picks they got for Drew Holiday. They have flexibility in a way that they never had under Del Demps. And when they had Anthony Davis,

they were always stealing from Peter to pay Paul. It was always one move in order to get into the playoffs, not necessarily excel. And now they actually have some extra draft picks, extra draft capital in order to make moves like they made on Monday. The problem is there are enough signs, including that trade, where you start to get a little worried. And I think the big thing, in addition to just pretty much admitting that all the moves that you made last year a mistake with this one trade on Monday is just like Zion's unhappiness and like yes stars are unhappy this uh this day and age across the league but it does feel like this is happening with Zion earlier than it ever happened with AD and earlier than I can ever remember with most

stars of his caliber yeah and we'll get into that trade in a second, but you were covering the team right as the parentheses AD is unhappy, starts getting whispered around, right? And it's becoming a thing. And it's like, where is this going? Well, how do we fix it? How do we make you less unhappy? And that leads to a boogie cousins trade where they trade buddy healed and two future first round picks a trade that at the time seemed like a fair trade, right? It's like, oh, yeah, they should probably do this. They now have two of the best 15 guys in the league. That's a great thing to have. In retrospect, you would never do a trade like that.

But when you were covering the team, how does the Whisper campaign work with our stars and happy? Who's doing it? How do you know? How do you suss out what's real and not real? Well, when I was there, it was a little more apparent because in my first off season with the team, that was when they lost Ryan Anderson and Eric Gordon for nothing and replaced them with each one more and Solomon Hill. So yeah, it was a pretty glaring red sign to the point where when

they, they came back for preseason, they held their media days. They were talking about how they wanted to be more like the Celtics. This was during the era where the Celtics were that spunky team under Brad Stevens. Didn't have a lot of talent,

but they played really hard. They played a lot of defense. And so they're talking about how they want to be like the Celtics. Meanwhile, the Celtics were making all of the right moves in order to get Anthony Davis and setting themselves up. It didn't work that way as a prime candidate for a trade destination.

And so they got themselves into the situation long before that, though, where they make the holiday trade, which at the time, like Drew Holiday wasn't the type of player he is today. He was an all-star by name only because I believe he was an injury replacement that year with the Sixers. He was young and he had upside, but they were still mortgaging precious draft picks, two lottery picks in order to bring him into the fold. And once you do that, it just creates this cascading event where you have to keep doubling down, keep bringing in veterans because you've signaled to the world and ownership in particular

that we're going to win now. And when you do that, it's hard to really walk it back and be like, hey, has to take over ownership of the team. And we have this really weird stretch. 2010, they can't find an owner because at that point, the NBA values, God, I wish I had a shitload of money back then. It was, remember, people were cherry picking like the Sixers for $230 million and these crazy numbers because people were like, what's going to happen to this NBA business? Attendance numbers are way down. Where's this next revenue stream? Nobody sees streaming, all that stuff coming.

Everybody's an idiot. So the league takes over. The lockout happens. Lockout ends. We get the Chris Paul drama. Lakers versus Clippers, and the Clippers end up getting them. They get what turned out to be not a great package back from them. Ericippers end up getting him. They get what turned out to

be not a great package back from them. Eric Gordon's the centerpiece. They get one pick. They have this terrible lockout season, but somehow miraculously get Davis. So now they have the reboot. It's like, this is great. We have our owner in place. We have Anthony Davis. Then as you say, a year later, they make this holiday trade. The trade, I went back because I couldn't totally remember what it was. It was the number six pick, which was New Orleans Noel, which at the time he had fallen.

It seemed like he might be the number one pick. He's number six and they get a top five 2014 protected pick. Do you remember what player was in that spot? Was it Sarich? It was Alfred Payton. That's right. New Orleans Noel, actually.

Yeah, so Philly did that weird Sarich thing where they traded Payton to somebody else. So anyway, on paper, just those spots, New Orleans, Noel, and Alfred Payton for Drew Holliday is a pretty good trade. Actually, I don't mind that trade. Maybe they overvalued a little bit. The problem was the next two summers. They spent $44 million in four years on Tyreek Evans. Then the following year was the Omer, Ashik, Ryan Anderson,

super splurge. Right. And then on top of it, they just couldn't keep Gordon healthy. And that tied into really what was going on with the organization where it was like, nobody on this team could stay healthy ever. And, you know, as you were in there, embedded in there, that was a recurring theme, right? It's like, is this a mom and pop organization or is this a real NBA organization where they take care of players and, you know, this is an A plus effort behind the scenes?

What was your, what did you learn as you were covering them at that time? Yeah. I mean, I think the first season I was there, they set records for, for games missed because of injury and illness. And like, I did a story where the lead trainer there was basically like, I was asking him about all the technology that they were interested in. And like, and he just had this quote about like, I like my hands, like my hands are what I rely on. It was not a great sign. I mean, yeah, the thing I always tell people is I think people want to focus on... They want to look at the Pelicans injury situation and think it's like a decrepit hospital or something like that. But a lot of these issues happen on the fringe. It's things like you're talking about with Eric Gordon, who can't stay healthy, but he's also unhappy. And that type of thing just festers and it just compounds. And all of those things tend to build up. And that's the real issue with the small market franchises is if you don't have the resources or just the know-how in order to do those little things that build into bigger successes, I just think it often overwhelms you at a certain point. And to your point, like the injury stuff, like to this day, they brought

in the sun's training staff. It seems like there's a better situation there. I haven't been there in a long time, but it still feels like they're, they're fighting the injury bug today. And there, it's a weird time in the league, right? Cause their mentality with Davis is like, we got to get a center next time. Right. That's yeah. This is where the league's going so it's like new orleans noel it's omar ashik it's robin lopez over and over again but now really like what the way they should have gone has been like we don't need a center let's go let's go smaller let's build like a fast team with shooters but i i just i don't blame them for not realizing it because this was the roy hibbert era all of a sudden ended abruptly and all of a sudden the Warriors are sure in this new era. But they spent a lot of capital trying to put guys next to

Davis. That was really a waste of resources. Yeah. I mean, the Asik trade was kind of in the following re-signing of him that summer, I believe, was kind of the record scratch on NBA big men. It was like that was when the door closed and big men were no longer the Asik types. And so for a long time, they kind of traded back and forth between going offense only with Ryan Anderson or going defense only with Omar Asik. They were never in a perfect spot.

And then it leads to this issue where Davis doesn't want to play center. And then you're trying to cater to his needs. And when you're getting into that situation, I think the Asik signing kind of speaks to that. You're really trying to appease him. And maybe that's not best long-term for the team. And so you get into this weird nebulous place

where you don't want to be. It just, like I said before, it just compounds. And these things tend to build up. Well, and you also have a situation where New Orleans is the number one draft pick of the game show. Are we sure they should have an NBA team? And look, we just saw it with Milwaukee.

If you have the right organization in place and the right ownership and people really investing and it's basically all they're doing is thinking about how to make this an awesome NBA franchise despite some market limitations, that's going to work. You also have in Milwaukee, you have a legacy of 50 years thinking about how to make this an awesome NBA franchise despite some market limitations,

that's going to work. You also have a Milwaukee, you have a legacy of 50 years of basketball fans. You have some fun things that happen. New Orleans has the opposite. New Orleans had the jazz in the 70s, which were a catastrophe. They ended up moving to Utah. They have this kind of weird Charlotte situation that George Shin flees from Charlotte, ends up in New Orleans, and then all that stuff. They end up going back as an expansion team. And it's just, the fit was never right. We've had moments where, especially with Chris in 2008, where they went toe to toe a little bit, But it just never happened these last 12 years. They were owned by the same family that owned the football team. We all know what they're going to care about more. We all saw the seats at the Smoothie King Center or whatever it was called before that, where you just look at this and you go, are we sure the city should have a basketball team? So the answer is, yeah, if it was probably

properly managed, anyone should have a basketball team. But when answer is, yeah, if it was probably properly managed, anyone should have a basketball team. But when you take a small market combined with some incompetent decisions and the fact that honestly, if they get Michael Kidd-Grokrest instead of Davis in 2012, then what happens? What are we looking at? I mean, this team won the lottery twice with two generational talents in the lottery. Right. You know? You would say Zion and Anthony Davis are probably the two best prizes of this whole decade. Right.

You know? I almost look at it like it's the difference between going to a big school and going to a small local college. And the problem is today's player doesn't want to, by and large, go and stay in the local small college unless you're Giannis and you're just wired completely different than some of the other players today. And I almost wonder if it was to their detriment that they

brought in so many players from the Lakers who have seen life in the glamour market, who have seen the other side of things, are to kind of the comforts of being like seeing the celebrities on on on the sidelines when you look in new orleans it's usually the guy from arcade fire or like bunk from the wire sometimes when he's down there um and and so i do think like that doesn't help things it's just i don't know and i also wonder if like drafting those players actually lucking into a Davis and a Zion at the top of the draft almost creates this gift curse scenario where, yeah, you have the one thing every team needs and wants. But on the other hand, that

player is going to require certain things that other players don't. He's going to want to accelerate the growth process, both because of what stars the man and because of what their talent affords. Davis was ready to be not necessarily a centerpiece, but to be a starter on a playoff team as soon as his rookie year. Zion, same thing. He got hurt, but it's tough because you don't want to say it's a bad thing to get the number one overall pick, but it does kind of force your hand into what type of team you are going to be and how quickly you need to be that team. Well, you just have to add up all the people

who've been unhappy there the last 10 years. That's a red flag too. If you're just looking around and it's just like, who's happy? Who's selling this team out in the public? Who's the guy? Drew Holiday, I guess, would be the closest they had to a happy guy.

But I feel like Drew Holiday is a really unique character guy. You know, I feel like he's going to make the best of any situation and in a lot of different ways, but they just had a lot of unhappy people and they had some bad luck too. Right. Like, um,

the, the Ryan Anderson, like the stuff he went on, the stuff that happened to him in his personal life was really unfortunate. The Gordon injuries. Well, I don't know who to blame between the team or whatever, but then you see him in Houston and it's like, oh, that's the guy we always thought Eric Gordon was going to be dating back to the Clipper days. And then Boogie getting hurt at the tail end of a, what was that? An overtime game.

I was watching that game when he went down. He played like 45 minutes. Against Houston, yeah. Yeah, and they really looked like they had something with Davis and Boogie. They were a real bitch to play. It wasn't much different than what the Lakers stumbled into last year in the bubble where they were just kind of overpowering teams. And so Boogie goes down.

Would he have gone down anyway? I don't know. But this is a bad luck thing that dates back to them in the 70s. I mean, one of the most famous trades that they made, not for a good reason, was when they signed Gail Goodrich during the first year of free agent compensation. They have to give the Lakers two first round picks. Gail Goodrich shows up and blows out his Achilles in like three weeks. And then one of those picks

turns out to be Magic Johnson. Like, that's the legacy of this New Orleans team. We're over and over again bad luck. So they have the good luck with the lottery,

but everything else has kind of gone sideways. So anyway, Boogie gets hurt. Davis signs with Clutch. Now the clock is on. He's like, I'm only going to the Lakers. Do we feel good about what they got from the Lakers? Davis signs with Clutch. Now the clock is on. Yeah. I'm only going to the Lakers.

Do we feel good about what they got from the Lakers all these years later? Because I thought they overpaid and I still feel like I looked at it. It's like a really good haul. That was

bad as well as you're going to do for a superstar. But that now you actually look at how it's played out with some of these guys, especially if they lose Lonzo and it's like, eh, not as great of a haul as I thought. Yeah, and that's the problem with getting these guys

as they're just on the cusp of getting paid. Like, yeah, you have guys that are further along in the process. But now Brandon Ingram, yes, he's an all-star. He's a guy you want to kind of build around along with Zion, but you need to pay him a max extension. Lonzo Ball finally finds his shot. You could finally say, well, some people can finally say that you're confident in Lonzo as an offensive player, as a shooter. But once again, he wants a bigger contract. And he doesn't sound

like based on some of the interviews Rich Paul is giving, wants to stay put in New Orleans. And so that is also the problem with accelerating the process is like it costs more and it sucks up your resources. And that's something that the Pelicans have never been willing to do is overspend. Go back and try to find a time that they ever spent into the luxury tax with this ownership. You can't find it because they haven't done it. On the one hand, maybe they haven't had the type of team to really push all in and be willing to spend that. But if you're getting into the situation where these guys actually do hit, you're going to have to pay them as if they're core

players, but you're still trying to add other guys. And so it's really, you're trying to walk, you're trying to follow two timelines and that really never works for any franchise. I mean, look at the Warriors now, they're kind of in a similar boat. Yeah. And then you think, you know, the guys you're getting back, you're really hoping to go two for two. They end up going one for two, but Lonzo's another one where I feel like Lonzo's going to come back to haunt them. You know?

I actually really like Lonzo. I look at the teams like the Bulls, the Knicks, a couple of these other ones, I think he's easy to play with. I think he's gotten better every year as a shooter. I think he's a good defender. He doesn't need the ball, which is great. He's a little like Halliburton, right? Where he's not somebody who's going to have like the 35 usage rate, but it just seems like the ship has sailed with him. And I think you have to ask yourself as a franchise and as a city, why do these guys keep wanting to leave?

And why didn't this work out with Lonzo? All right. So there's this David Griffin piece that I want to get into, but we're going to take a quick break. This episode is brought to you by Movember. The mustache is back with a vengeance. Look at Travis Kelsey. Before he rocked that Super Bowl ring,

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Fork in the Road, they know they have to make this big Davis trade. They hired David Griffin to run the team. David Griffin has been on this podcast. Very nice guy. I like David Griffin. Everyone likes to hire. I would say him and Neil O'Shea have probably played the media the best

out of any GMs over the last 10 years. Maybe secret Messiah, secret Sean Marks. But Griffin and O'Shea are just great at everything. So it's like, oh, Griff's in charge. This is going to be great for them. He takes Zion. He has the fourth pick, which he gets from the Davis trade.

Makes the big Davis trade. Gets all these picks, all this stuff. Has the fourth pick. DeAndre Hunter on the board. Trades back. Gets 8, 17, and 35. And takes Jackson Hayes on the board, trades back, gets 8, 17, and 35, and takes Jackson Hayes

over Rui, Reddish, and Cam Johnson, and then Alexander Walker, 17th. I would personally rather have DeAndre Hunter. I think you would too. Sure.

Totally. 2020 had Kira Lewis, 13th pick easily had the assets to move up to get Hal Burton at 10 or 11 or maybe even 12, right? Just move up three spots.

He's, Hal Burton, didn't get him. Stayed with Kira Lewis. We'll see if he's good. The holiday trade basically turns into he has to take Stephen Adams and Eric Bledsoe back. He gets 25 and 27 first from the Bucs years, $54.4 million. Adams last year, $27.5 million. For some reason, this was inexplicable when it happened, they gave Adams a two-year extension for $35 million that kicks in for this upcoming season. So now you're in the hook for Bledsoe and

Adams, basically for a combined $35 million a year for this year, next year, without having any idea if they're going to be useful or not for you. You also fire Alvin Gentry and you bring in Stan Van Gundy. You spend a lot of money on him. Immediately, it's clear that was the wrong hire. It's probably the wrong league for Stan at this point. It's not 2008 anymore. So now I look at New Orleans, I'm like, wow. All right. Here's what they have for actual picks now. Number 17 this year, because they traded back for the trade we're about to talk about. They have their own first in 22. They have a Lakers swap in 23. They have a lottery protected Nuggets first in 23. They have a Bucs swap in 24. They have a Lakers first in either 24 or 25. They can defer it if they want. In 25, they have a Pels first and a Bucs first.

Pick swap for the Bucs in 26 and then their own in the Bucs in 27. They have a lot of picks tied to the best player in the league who we watched his knee go backwards

and he missed a week. Probably he's going to be around at a high level for the next few years. And I look at all their assets, I'm like, shit, this kind of isn't what we thought it was going to be. Like when you hear all that stuff,

what do you think? You have wild fantasies about trading for Bradley Beal for using all those picks and maybe some of these young draft players that you actually took Walker and Lewis and flipping them for the type of superstar that Zion deserves to play with. Right.

Yeah. But they really haven't used any of them today, except for this most recent trade, which they used in order to walk back all of their mistakes from last season. And so you start to wonder, what is the actual value of these picks won? And are they really going to end up with the type of big return that I think that we all assume when these trades go down? Right. If you're having a drink with David Griffin tonight and you're like, so how'd this summer go for you at the Pelicans so far? And he's like,

I've had to spend the entire summer undoing every mistake I made from the previous summer. I hired the wrong coach. I had to fire him and get another one. So now I'm paying two coaches. I did this holiday trade where I got Bledsoe and George Hill back. I turned George Hill into Steven Adams with a first round pick. And now I had to give another first round pick and move seven spots back just to get rid of Bledsoe and Adams. So now that holiday picks not is because I basically lost two of the picks I got from the holiday trade in the first place because I'm trying to create this cap space for Kyle Lowry, who, FYI,

Kyle Lowry's in his mid-30s. He's taking 700,000 charges. To me, it's like, if I'm signing a running back in their mid-30s, at some point, you got to think about how many hits the body's taking and stuff like that. We're talking with Kenny Smith a little bit about how old guards can age, but I'd be really nervous about paying three years $90 million for Kyle Lowry. I don't know if that's a magic fix.

Plus, you're in the West. Am I winning the title with Ingram Zion and Kyle Lowry and a bunch of rookies? That doesn't make sense. Yeah, it just seems like people saw what happened

with the Suns and they just want to instantly copycat it to the point where the New Orleans Pelicans new coach that they introduced this morning is Willie Green, the lead assistant for Monte Williams on the Suns. And it is a little troubling because last offseason, it seemed like they doubled down on bully ball and defense and toughness coming off of that Lakers playoff run. Yeah, it does kind of smack of like people just trying to jump on trend and

like that never really works because the replication is never as good as the original. I will say on the one hand, it's good to see Griffin acknowledge his mistakes to act on them because I think in the previous regime, one of the biggest issues was that they allowed these mistakes to compound, as I said, and allowed them to fester. They never really just admitted to them. They just kind of kept going on and just making one after another. They did clear the decks, but this one does have a very Sam Hinckley feel to it where it's like, you have all these picks, but what are they actually for if you're just using them in order to try things out i i guess it like offends like how many gms actually have the ability to make all these mistakes and then use assets that

they could use elsewhere in order to walk them back the next year and still have their job zero right like honestly if i own the pelicans and gr did all this stuff, I'd be like, look, I don't feel like this worked out. I just watched you spend another summer on doing all this stuff you did last summer. Why didn't you hire Willie Green a year ago? What's going on with this team? Also, like, what's our plan? Because why did we get all these assets, but we're on the clock with Giannis, I mean, with Zion. And I would watch what the Bucks just did and been like, wait a second. Giannis, Zion in the Giannis spot, Drew Holiday in the Drew Holiday spot, and Brandon Ingram as the Chris Middleton score. Like, didn't we basically have the same kind of blueprint? Zion's not Giannis.

But those three guys, as the way they should have maybe complimented each other, why didn't we just keep Drew Holiday? What was the point of trade? Why not just pay him so we could get all these assets that now we have to trade for a guy who's going to be about as roughly as good as Drew Holiday, Kyle Lowry? Yeah. Just keep Drew Holiday? That's if they get Kyle Lowry, right? Yeah. Who I don't think they will. Right. You have to convince him not to go to Philly Kyle Lowry, right? Yeah. You have to convince him. I don't think they will. Right. You have to convince him not to go to Philly or a ready-made contender.

You have to convince him that he is... Or Miami. Yeah. You have to convince him he is going to aspire to the middle, to getting this team over the hump and potentially making it back into playoffs. He could be paid more handsomely than he would at those other spots, but really they put themselves in the situation where they really need to use this cap space because that's the primary value

of this trade, right? Is to open that cap space back up and try to use it to find a missing piece here. But are we sure they're going to get Lowry? No. And even if they use it to retain Lonzo Ball,

let's just say, is he going to be happy? And then does that just make their issues, like the locker room issues that they tried to solve by firing Stan Van Gundy? Doesn't that just bring that back into play where you're almost having Eric Gordon 2.0 situation? They have a long history of not being able to acquire marquee free agents. And to that point, the last boldface name that they got was Reddick, who at the trade deadline, left the team and was pretty much calling Griffin in the front office liars for the way that they handled his situation.

Yeah, they did this. That was another move from the first summer where we'll get J.J. Redick because they're basically bringing veterans. They wanted to win right away. And when Cleveland did this in the mid-2000s, I think the difference was Cleveland spent a shitload of money. I mean, they were in the tax. They were big free agent contracts for Larry Hughes, like big extension for Zedrunas Algoskis. They went down that weird road where it was like every year they were grabbing somebody else's giant contract where it was like Ben Wallace. Then it was Antoine Jameson.

Then it was Shaq. They overpaid for Veragiao. That was like this crazy, it might've been the most expensive roster in the league in 2010. The Pelicans have done the opposite. They've been under the fringes of the luxury tax. But I look at the team they're left with now,

Zion and Ingram. They got Jonas Valanciunas, who I really like, who I want to talk about quickly in a second. Jackson Hayes, I have no idea if he's going to be good. Also, they took him eighth. I don't think you should ever take a big man in the top 10 of a draft

unless you think he's going to make an All-NBA team. It's too easy to get big guys. And then you just brought in a new big guy. Yeah, and you just brought another big guy. You can get big guys every year. Kira Lewis, Alexander Walker, they have 17th pick,

they have 30 million in cap space. I don't see the free agent that turns this team into a contender. Now they, they were able to free up salary cap so at least they don't

have the Adams-Bledsoe combo. They might lose Lonzo for nothing. Maybe you can sign and trade him. Maybe you can get Laurie Markin him back but he's another forward.

Or if he goes the Knicks, maybe get something back from him. I don't really see the moves. I also don't see the fit with, I don't like a Zion Ingram, Valanchunas backcourt or frontcourt. That's not a three guys that makes sense to me for the same reason Adams didn't make sense.

I really like Valanchunas. I hope the Celtics get him. But I think there's a... It feels like there's more trades moves coming and I can't really figure out what they are. Partly because I can't figure out anything New Orleans is doing.

They're zigging, they're zagging, they're going backwards, they're going sideways. What the fuck? I guess the one possible option is they could find a way to work Lonzo in a sign-in trade.. I guess the one possible option is they could find a way to work Lonzo in a sign-in trade. I mean,

the one burbling today is, I forgot who reported it, but was Lonzo to Indiana for Malcolm Brogdon. And perhaps that is the type of combo Kyle Lowry type you use. But again, he's had injury issues

throughout his career. Sounds like a great fit for New Orleans. Yeah. Bring your injuries to New Orleans. The most injured team in the league. He's definitely their type, for sure. So yeah, they really need to nail

whatever happens in the next couple of weeks. It's weird to say this, but what they do over the next couple of days, weeks, probably dictates what happens with Zion long-term. That's how quickly these decisions come up when you have a player like Zion in your midst. So two things on this. I do not think Zion and Ingram made sense together.

I said this on Green Room with KFC and Kyle Mann yesterday. I've never thought they made sense together. I do not think that's the foundation for a championship team. And the difference between Zion and Giannis is in a playoff series against the Phoenix Suns, if Zion got switched onto Chris Paul, Chris Paul would go by Zion and create a basket. He's not the two-way player Giannis is.

He's a spectacular offensive player. I think Zion and Ingram play the same position. And I don't think either of them can guard anybody. So fundamentally, I'm not getting stops if I have those two guys together. And also, from what I saw last year, I don't know how much of it was Van Gundy related because they clearly turned on him immediately.

It kind of feels like Ingram thought he was the best guy on the team. And you would see these moments where it would be like two straight plays where Zion just did whatever he wanted and got a layup or would see these moments where it would be like two straight plays where Zion just did whatever he want, got to lay up our dunk. And then it would be like,

oh, now we got to run our Ingram play. Got to get Ingram involved. Ingram hasn't shot for four times. I don't think that makes sense. And to me, where you have Simmons out there, you have Dame Lillard out there,

you have Bradley Beal. I like all the, I even like the Simmons fit better than the Brandon Ingram fit. I would make a run at Simmons with Ingram. I really think that's the move. I'm in on the Simmons change of scenery as like this catch all awesome, unbelievable Scotty Pippen type guy for Zion.

Athletically, that team's a bitch with those two guys together. I put the ball in Simmons's hands. I think he makes more sense than Ingram does, but do you think there's any way they would trade Ingram? I think the one player that New Orleans hates more than Anthony Davis might be Ben Simmons because of how much he dogged it at LSU.

I just, I mean, I could be wrong. Oh, I forgot it. Yeah, that was a mail-in. Really bad. Yeah, and I just remember people just being completely out on him in the draft, like wondering why he would be number one and like constantly asking me, the NBA guy, like, what is this guy's deal?

That's a great point. You're right. They couldn't do that because they care more about LSU than the Pelicans. Sure. My question is really, what is Zion? Because in the span of a year, he's flipped from being the ultimate small ball five to all of a sudden being your point guard. And so I almost don't know how to build my team around him. Clearly, the first hypothesis of just surrounding him with defenders didn't work. I think a lot of

us could have told you that before they actually tried that. I mean, it seems like it's so simple just to say you need shooters around this team and maybe you pilot that and see if those two guys can exist with people who could actually provide them the space to both be ball handlers. But everyone wants a 3 and D guy. That's the problem that they all go for

20 million a year is because every team needs these guys. And you would think that being higher in the draft this year could potentially put you in a position to draft. I don't know. But then they went backwards. Yeah, but then they went backwards. And you would think that being higher in the draft this year could potentially put you in a position to draft. I don't know. But then they went backwards. Yeah, but then they went backwards. And so I don't know. I mean, I would like to see them with a full complement of guys

that actually could round out the Ingram-Zion core. But I don't know. I'm not totally sold on it at this point. I don't think Portland's trading Dame. That would be beautiful. Yeah. I think Ingram with the picks Would be the best centerpiece trade for Dame If I'm Dame I'm like wait a second what

I'm going to another small market With a guy who You know I had no idea If that could be My guy to play with Simmons I think Simmons is just undervalued now And Was in a weird situation in Philly.

And I would rather have him than Ingram. I would. I'm probably in the minority though. You would probably rather have Ingram than Simmons, right? Probably. I do like the defensive, just having that kind of almost like Drew Holiday max to go along with Zion where you could just throw them on the best guy, but like the spacing concerns with the two of them is, is my pillars is it might be tough. And then Beal, I think they have the best package to put together for Beal out of anybody.

Cause if I, if I'm Washington, I'm not trading him for Wiggins and seven and 14. I'd have to get Wiseman in it. Even in, even then I'm not positive that's changing my destiny because I didn't get like a guaranteed guy under a good contract back. But if I got Ingram back with some picks and I guess that, you know, you have all these picks, you're on the clock with Zion,

which is my second question. Like I really do feel like he could be the first one that just said, fuck it and left. Cause I think he'd be able to make the money back. So I really genuinely do think they're on the clock. And some people are like, ah, you never walk away from that kind of money. I disagree. Somebody's going to do it. Right.

Zion would be the prime candidate for that. And I think there's a lot to say that maybe the Pelicans are operating at a point of fear. You can just hold strong and say prove it but i do think the moves that they made recently getting rid of stan with so much money on his contract a lot yeah and just walking back the the two moves they made over the previous off and uh off season suggests that they are operating with expediency in mind that that they need to appease Zion.

And I think that is concerning. And on the one hand, I think it's the right move to do, but the fact that they're already considering that suggests to me that there's already stuff in the air that maybe Zion could break the paradigm and want out before his second contract even is offered. You wouldn't trade Zion, right? It's so tough. Because this is what you do everything for all of those drafts all of those moves on their fringes are to get players like zion but we're pretty much saying like they can't keep zion if you trade for a bradley beal he's not

on a contract long enough that like he would want to stay long term you'd really have to have uh a paul ge George sort of situation. And even that didn't work because he wanted out the year after. And if you had someone like Dame, who's on his contract for four years, is he going to be happy there? Is he going to show up? Is he just going to completely torpedo the situation if he doesn't sign up for it?

I don't know. It just brings you back to the point where it's just like, maybe this has nothing to do with actual players and organizations, but really is about market and where guys want to be these nowadays. It's hard to believe they have a team and Seattle doesn't. But I also think if they had a really good ownership and had done this correctly the last 10 years, it would be a success story like we've seen in some other small markets.

You know, I think the combination of it's a football city and the fact that they just never really had success. If you're 38, let's say you're, I don't know, let's say Van Lathan. Now he's from Baton Rouge. But if he was like, yeah, I've liked the New Orleans basketball my whole life. My dad used to tell me Pete Maravich stories or whatever. and I've been in ever since. What are his fun memories? The time, the time, the 08 New Orleans team took the Spurs to seven or like the time, the time we got swept by Golden State in 2015. It's like, you're talking about the one series you beat Portland. It's the highlight of the last

25 years. So it just gets tough after a while when you had... At some point, you almost need a karma cleansing or something. Right. And I guess that is a backdoor endorsement

for trying to do something immediately because there hasn't been enough to really rally behind if you're a Pelicans fan, right? They really haven't given you any of these moments. I think it was only two playoff bids with Anthony Davis. And by the second time, he was already on to hiring Clutch. And then that thing just spiraled out of control.

And so on the one hand, I 100% agree with you. Taking the same approach that you do with the Saints just isn't applicable in a lot of ways to basketball. But on the other hand, you have to actually give these fans something to care about. And here we are a couple of years in a row now. They just haven't had the product to do so. And what happens if Zion just plays the... You know what? You guys should actually trade me now because I am not coming back. I'm giving you a heads up. Davis gave you a heads up. I'm doing it now. I'm not coming back. I will be leaving the team. I'm not going to sign my extension thing. I'm just going to bet on myself. I'll be able to play in a big market and I'll make more than enough money back when I'm in New York or Chicago or wherever

I end up going. So trade me today. It's unprecedented, but it's definitely in the air. I mean, you have people talking about the Willie Green hiring as the decision that could ultimately dictate whether or not Zion stays long-term. Just the relationship they build and whether or not he can help mend the fences that have been broken, apparently in a year and a half of basketball

that Zion has been there. It's just crazy to think about, but this is where we are. Unbelievable. What else are you looking forward to from the draft? It seems like the top three is pretty locked in, in some order, but we have those three. And then Toronto, the draft kind of starts with Toronto at four. I'm guessing there's not going to be any sort of trade with one, two, three,

but Toronto at four will be when it gets a little interesting, at least. Who knows what they have in store who knows what kind of franchise they want to have for the next five years but what are you looking forward to

I'm really intrigued by the teams that have two lottery picks and now the Warriors are probably the more popular one just because what they do at seven and fourteen

and whether or not they spin those into a trade probably dictates the fate of next season like if they can get an actual impact veteran with those picks and Wiseman and whatever else they have and whether or not they spin those into a trade probably dictates the fate of next season. If they can get an actual impact veteran with those picks and Wiseman and whatever else they have, probably goes a long way to dictating

who ends up winning the title even. Also, not to make this a very ringer take, but what Orlando actually does with these two picks. Yeah. This is a team on the other side of the Zion coin where they didn't get the first overall pick or second overall pick or third overall pick. And they've been stuck in this spin cycle like Cleveland most recently, where they didn't have those sort of marquee players. And I'm wondering what they could do with two picks. Can they move up? Can they draft a guy

like Kaminga, who everyone seems to hate, but everyone seems to also acknowledge has all the talent in the world? And so I wonder if you take a bet on him, maybe that could be fascinating. And I also wonder, if you take a safe bet with your first pick, do you take more of a home run swing with your second pick? I think that's where the draft gets really fascinating to me because I think a lot of different things can happen. If I was Orlando, I would try to flip picks with Memphis, who now has the 10th pick, thanks to the Jonas trade, where I would take five, I'd try to move back to 10 and get at least one other or maybe even two other pieces

because Memphis actually has too many guys now, right? They have a lot of guys. They have probably the most number of guys that I just like on the same roster. They have like 10 guys I just like. Like, I really like Tillman. When they traded Jonas, I was like, that's weird. And then you think like, ah, Tillman's going to play more.

I really like Tillman. Clark, yeah. Yeah, Clark, they just have dudes. And I wonder like, if I'm Orlando and I decide, you know what, we should roll the dice on Kaminga. His stock's low for whatever reason, but I don't need to take him at five. I can take them at eight, you know? And maybe if you flip with five and 10, maybe you could even get him at 10 instead of eight. Cause I don't think Sacramento would take them either. So you could kind of stack the drafts so you could get Kaminga at the spot you want

and pick up some other assets. If I were them, I would rather have eight and 10 roll the dice with Kaminga a little bit later with more stuff. But I don't think they'll do that because we rarely see teams do the trade back. You have to have a lot of confidence. You know, like Ainge,

when they did it with the Tatum-Falz trade, like Ainge, it's about as confident of Tatum-Falz trade, like Ainge, it's about as confident of, gee, he was on an amazing craps roll in Vegas, you know, and he was going to do that

because everything he was doing was working. I would find it more hard to believe that whoever the Orlando, who is the Orlando GM? Is it Hennigan? No.

Hennigan's long gone. Can't even remember. Who is that? Jeff Weltman, I think, is the president. And then they have the guy from Milwaukee, Hammond. Yeah, John Hammond. You're right. Oh, John Hammond. That's what it is. Yes.

Yeah. I don't know. I'd want to get one guaranteed guy that I thought was good, and I'd want to roll the dice on the Giannis thing. And he had the success with Giannis obviously in 2013. So maybe he's like, hey, Kaminga,

you know, people thought Giannis was too small. He could do a whole cell job on it. I just don't think Kaminga should go in the top seven because I don't think, I can't imagine OKC taking him. Can you? It seems like everyone wants to talk about Boak Knight with them.

Yeah. I'm a UConn grad, so I watched some of Boak Knight. I don't really pay much attention to college, but I have to say I'm a little perplexed just because what I saw was a lot of pass, pass, dribbling to the lane iso and hoping something happened.

Like the shot didn't seem all that precise to me. I know he shot, I think, close to 30% from three. But on the one hand, he seems like the type of dynamic guard who fits in today's NBA. And I think KOC has him mocked to OKC in his latest one. But yeah, Kaminga seems

tough for OKC, I think, just considering how many bets they're taking on these high upside guys. Their entire team is high upside guys. And Golden State's not taking them unless they're taking them as part of a trade for somebody else. And then now all of a sudden we're back with Orlando at eight. So I just feel like they can get them at eight.

And if they took Scottie Barnes at five, it's fine and that's probably the safe pick. But I think they can get a little creative. I'm really interested to see what Memphis does because they clearly moved up to 10 for a reason. And there seems to be hints that maybe it's part one of a two-parter where they move up again to try to get somebody they like. And then whether Toronto just says, fuck it, we're blowing it up. Fours for sale, we'll move back. We just want to get assets. OKC sitting

there at six with 100,000 assets and could easily, if they love Suggs or if they love Mobley, try to make a move. I think I would rate this draft like an eight and a half out of 10 from an intrigue level. I think there's a lot of subplots going on. And on top of it, the OKC just being the guy at the blackjack table who has just way more chips than everyone else, just kind of looking around.

That part's fun too. and then the Simmons piece on top of all of this like could Simmons go on Thursday that would be fascinating I mean I would love to see Simmons end up in Portland I mean obviously for Dame that would be the most value wise make the

most sense as a flip but like I'm slowly talking myself into CJ for Ben as being something of a buy low on CJ McCollum if you get other stuff along with him. And it seems like a very Daryl thing to turn him into some close approximation of Dame by putting him into the system and finding the best usage of him,

detaching himself from another score first point guard, combo guard in Dame. And all of a sudden, that is the market inefficiency buying him and rounding out the rest of your team are you i guess what do you think about that my issue with philly doing that is i feel like that deal is there every day for the rest of the year leading up to this season i think it's september i can call them be like hey i'm ready now. Simmons for McCollum. I'm exhausted. I really like CJ McCollum, but I just feel like that deal is sitting there for them.

I think he's thinking, can I get three from Cleveland? Can I get Jalen Brown from Boston? Can I get I don't know, some crazy, could I get Ingram? I think he's still working in those circles for some big blue chipper back

that makes a little more sense maybe with Embiid. I personally would not overreact with it. I don't feel like it's like panic sale. All my stuff is on my front lawn. Please take everything. I'm moving out in a week. I don't feel like the Simmons thing is at that level, but look, man, Brooklyn's going to be healthy next year. Milwaukee was, they're only going to be better next year because they're going

to have those two veterans that are going to want to sign there now that Giannis has gone up a level and they're easily number three in the East easily. Yeah. So yeah. And you have Doc Rivers as your coach who has not had a lot of success since 08. Well, it'll be fascinating. Check out the Ringer Draft Guide. Do some Ringer plugs before we go. Sure.

I mean, group chat, usually Tuesday or Wednesdays on the NBA show feed. I think we're doing a free agency primer with Waz and Rob on Friday. KOC's Draft Guide, Ch's rights constantly, Kyle Mann's videos. It's all a lot of good stuff out there. All right, great. JV, good to see you.

You too. All right, Kenny Smith is here. He launched the Jet Academy during the pandemic, and it's been pretty cool. It's still going. You can check it out at thejetacademy.com. I mean, the way the COVID's going and all that, this might be more valuable than ever these next six months.

Who the heck knows what's going on, but congrats on that. Really cool idea. Man, it's been great. You know, Bill, we got 6,000 kids signed up for the Jet Academy. You go on, it's virtual training, but it's live. You get an opportunity, you know, now we have Jordan Clarkson, Kobe White,

we have Draymond Green, all, you know, doing instructional videos live. You get an opportunity to, you know, ask questions and be part of it, and then you can go back and watch it and do it as well. I'm right here. I'm a good – you know where I am.

You see all these blue seats, man. You know where I'm at right now, brother. I'm right here now, brother. I'm right here. Chapel Hill. This is the live version of it. So here at Chapel Hill, man, you get to be part of it and part of taking some real good basketball and real good instruction.

And with COVID going, who knows, man? Like I said, dutchetacademy.com. Awesome idea. Let's go back to 1987. Let's go back to your draft. Speaking of North Carolina, this is a fun top 11 to redo because we have the NBA draft coming Thursday.

But Robinson goes first, even though we know he's not coming for two more years. Armand Gillian to the sun. Second Hobson to the nets. Third, your classic great athlete shooting guard guy. It doesn't really pan out. Reggie Williams to the Clippers fourth.

I still feel like if he goes to a different team, his whole career is different. I feel like the Clippers thing goes right on. Reggie, Reggie Miller and I redid our draft together. And we were in consensus that he would go second

because of the way the game is today. We're talking about the modern day game. If we were drafting in today's era, he would go second and I would go third because dunking and shooting threes, that's what If we were drafting in today's era, he would go second and I would go third. Because dunking and shooting threes, that's what I did.

I was fast and I'd get to the rim and I'd dunk and I shot threes. Reggie shot threes within incredible distance early on, even in college. So we always say Robertson would still go one. Yeah. And he would go second and I would go third. Mark Jackson would be second or third round. He'd be ready to be drafted. He'd be undrafted

free agent. Scotty goes fifth, but he was, at that point, it seemed pretty high. We didn't know about his college experience. He was a raw athlete, but five seemed like almost a reach. Yeah, I don't know about his college experience. He was a raw athlete, but five seemed like almost a reach. Yeah, I don't know, Scotty, back then, because you had to shoot the three. And today, today's era, they wouldn't have known Scotty could be Scotty.

I don't think people would have been able to foresee that. I'd still say we still had Scotty going about 10, though. Oh, yeah. Yeah, We're still because of his length and his size, and they would have been like, oh, he's going to be a great defender at that position. Well, so then it goes, year six, you go to Sacramento,

Kevin Johnson, seven, Olden Paul in his eight, Derrick McKee, nine, Horace Grant, ten, Reggie Miller, 11. Those are a lot of NBAba years that's like that's like 90 to 95 just nba seasons in six straight picks which is pretty unusual for the draft yeah and you know what the crazy thing is i always say our draft was you know obviously reggie and david you know being you know you know, superb, great players. But everyone else, like Mark Jackson at 18, Muggsy Bogues at 13, you know, we were all good guys who were the glue guys, the guys that helped you win.

Yeah. Win it all. Like, there's a lot of championships or NBA finals in those, in that 87 draft. A lot of people, you know, won rings or were very close to winning rings. Yeah, and Reggie Lewis was the big prize later, but then he's gone in six years, but that was an unbelievable pick for the Celtics. This draft was a really good draft.

And I think this draft, I mean, I don't want to talk about the draft too much, but this draft this year, where I think the top three would all be number one picks overall in normal drafts, right? So you could get Evan Mobley with the third pick

and he might be the, he would have been the first pick in probably half of the last 10 drafts we've had. So I'm really fascinated to see how it plays out. Very fascinating. And I want to see where,

is it going to be really top heavy? Like, you know, are these guys who are now getting a lot of attention, are they going to be really top heavy? Like, you know, are these guys who are now getting a lot of attention, are they going to be – is Evan Mobley going to be as good as Chris Bosh as they're projecting? Yeah, yeah. You know, is Cunningham going to be as good as Paul Pierce? Is he really going to be that?

Like, he's going to be as good as those guys. And so we'll see, you know. And where you go, you see it on the head. If, if certain guys go certain places, they hold, they hold career changes.

You know, coaching is everything. Think about your draft. If you just get taken by the bulls, you're, you have your own last dance episode. I'm all, I'm always,

you know, I always say, I used to tell my son this, and this was in confidence. I used to say, I'm so jealous of Scottie Pippen. He's like, what do you mean? I was like, because he went one pick ahead of me. And I would have loved to play with Michael. I would have never had an issue with the way he, you know, his tyranny, so speak i was for me i'm from

new york city that's how we talk to each other that's what we do like he and that brings out the best in you i always thought so i was i was so disappointed not going to the bulls and i was so jealous of scotty for so long until i got to play with Hakeem. When I got to play with Hakeem, I was like, man, I finally got that again. I was so jealous of him the first five years of my career. I was like, I wish I was Scottie Pippen there. I wish I had been there. Well, the last time you were out, we were talking about how great Hakeem was. And he's now, he's the lost guy now from out of the top 15 best guys ever.

He's the one that's faded away, partly because 15 best guys ever. He's the one that's faded away partly because of who he is. He's quiet, dude. He's not out there. He's not on TV shows. Um, he just kind of faded. Moses faded away for different reasons.

And now Moses is gone. But the, both of those guys were somebody like Shaq, he retires and he was so famous when he was playing and now he's on TV and your legacy kind of keeps going. I was watching Giannis. I was watching Giannis this year and I'm thinking what he just did really reminded me of the Hakeem 94 and 95 runs in some way. Right.

Where it's like the title was available. It was ready to be stolen by somebody. He stayed healthy. He got better as it went along. He dipped into some different level that we weren't positive he had in him and made the guys around him better, and he just took the title. It was not much different than your 94 title, right? I 100% agree.

And you have some really interesting pieces, some guys who people didn't think that could get it done at other places. We played with a chip on our shoulder, the Mario Ellis and Bernie Maxwells

of the world. You know, didn't think they could get it done at other places, including myself. And then, but what, you know, the one thing that I would say,

they were the best basketball team this year. Because everyone's like, oh, injuries. they were the best basketball team this year. Because everyone's like, oh, injuries. I'm like, every team this year had an injury. But they were the only ones who could sustain it. They won a series without him. They won two games in a series to get past Atlanta without him. Every other team in the league, LeBron and the Lakers,

they couldn't hold it down until AD got back. You know, the Phoenix Suns, they held it down until Chris Paul got back with the protocol. Every other team held it down or were able to hold it down or couldn't. And so you could, I don't think you could take anything away from what the Milwaukee Bucks did because they weren't truly the best team this year. What about Giannis reminds you of Hakeem? Relentless. When you talk about Hakeem,

you always say he's relentless. He will go help on defense, run back and block a shot. He would go get the offensive rebound. He scored in so many different ways where some of the great players today, they are great, but they only could do a couple of things. If Hakeem was having an offensive night,

he'd have 10 offensive rebounds. Yeah. So, like, he could dominate the game on the offensive glass. Name me three other superstars that could do that. You know, Giannis can dominate the game on his offensive glass. Name me three other superstars that could do that. You know, Giannis can dominate the game on his offensive glass. You know what?

I'm not having a great day. You're a best player. We'll not get 20 points tonight. He won't get 20. And we're talking about a guard, too, with Akeem and Giannis. Like, because they can shot block you could you could be a great driver and can't score oh you know what you're great shooter we switch you on the pick and roll and he could defend you like it's so many different ways and their relentlessness

of how they did it Russell Westbrook has it Michael Michael Jordan has it. Giannis has it. And Akeem had it. And obviously Michael and Colby. Yeah, poor Chris Paul, who's almost your age at this point. And he's feeling great all playoffs. And then in this series, he gets his switch that he wants, but Giannis guarding him. It's like, oh, this is a little different. Yeah, a little bit different. And, you know, Chris has done an unbelievable job, you know, orchestrating a young team

who really has shown that they were ready in the bubble. And he pushed them over the top. They probably would have lost the first round or maybe second round if he's not there. And they had, you know, the same team they had in the bubble. But his ability to get them over the top they probably would have lost the first round or maybe second round if he's not there. And they had, you know, the same team they had in the bubble. But his ability to get them over the top in the first time for him being out, you know. Yeah.

You know, when he was in with the, because his championship might be different in the Houston Rockets if he doesn't go down. That might be different with the Clippers if he doesn't go down, that might be different with the Clippers. If he doesn't go down, do you think like he's going to be a free agent? Kyle Lowry is a free agent. These guys are in their mid thirties, their guards, little guys, notoriously, it can just go.

And that's it, you know? And when you're a little guy and you lose a half step, it's like losing four steps. And yet with what, the way Chris handled last season, I think people are starting to feel like he's invincible and that Kyle Lowry, three years, 90 million, makes total sense. But how realistic is it for these little guys to play into their late 30s?

Because we've never seen it before. Well, I think you're going to see more and more of it because of the lack of handshaking. So there's no handshake rule. So that physicality that slows you down, you know, isn't there anymore. So now, not only did you lose a step, now I could hold you as well. You lose three to four steps. Well, without the physicality, I think, guys, your skill level could keep you around.

You could be, Ginobili was the first one to me that did it, that could play into his 40s. He's like, how is a two-guard playing in his 40s? It's like there's no hand check. He's able to slither through still. He's still able to do things. So I think you'll see more of it based off the fact of lack of physicality. And now it's around – it's really dribbling around cones at times.

It's shooting over larger cones. Yeah. You know, it's not the same as it was in the 90s, let's say. And you have the dieting, you have all the tricks that they have now that they didn't have in the mid-90s. Yeah, the biggest trick is you don't have

Alvin Robertson's hand on you. You don't have Vernon Maxwell's hand on you. That's the biggest trick of all. You can have the best diet in the world, but if you have that, you're okay. When did you realize you were heading toward an end?

What year was it? Was there a moment where you're like, oh, I'm not, I can see the finish line right now? When, you know, I was the jet, so to speak. Yeah. And, you know, when I would get a steal, you get a steal and you take a picture. You go, you take a mental picture of what's behind you. And then you know it and then you can see what's in front of you and when i used to take that mental picture everyone would be like

like standing up straight and then all of a sudden everybody was like this they were in running mode they were like they believed they could catch me oh my god like and they started to catch up and i was like anytime I would get a steal, I would now have to make it a two-on-one break. That's when I knew the end was there. Where I get a steal, it was like, no one's going to catch me. I'm going to dunk this thing as hard as I can. And there's no one ever going to be near me.

But when you take that middle picture and everybody's face is like this, and they're like, I can't go down. I was like, the end is near. The end is near. What was the biggest lesson for you from this basketball season? Did you take anything away? So you feel like the Bucs were the right team that won.

And yet I could argue if Durant's big toe is six inches back, the Nets win the title. How are we going to remember this season five years from now? They couldn't sustain it. They couldn't play well enough to get Kyrie back. They couldn't play well enough to get hard and healthy. You know, the Bucs did that. We watched a guy have maybe one of the most catastrophic-looking injuries

with Giannis, and they held it down until he got there. So to me, that was the difference. I'm like, this is the hold-down year. Can you hold me down? Can you hold your best players down? And the Milwaukee Bucks held them down. So I have to tip my hat off to them because the Lakers couldn't do it.

You know, the Nets couldn't do it. Philly really couldn't. Philly kind of didn't have to do it. They just didn't play well enough. So they were the best team. Would you trade for Ben Simmons? Yes. Without question.

I think that, you know, I used to play with a couple of guys and they used to say they couldn't shoot the basketball. All through my life. High school, college, whatever. And I was always a good shooter. And I'd be like, oh, come on, let's go work out. Well, you come work for me.

You know, we'll get you jumping right. We'll get you. A.V. Johnson was one of those guys. I said, but, A, you know, we're going to get to a point where you're going to shoot it well enough. You're going to tell people, but I still do this so well. You still might not see it. So let's concentrate on what you do really well. So, yeah, you don't shoot the three, but they might not ever have to see it.

And that's when you start becoming elite. And that's what Giannis did. He said, I don't shoot the three well, but I'm going to do this so great that you might not have to see it. And I think Ben has to really focus in on that and say, I'm going to push the basketball at six foot 10 at a pace

that you might not ever see me shoot a three, but I will work on it, but you might not ever see it. Yeah, I guess I'm a big defender of his. I thought he was terrible in the playoffs. I mean, he obviously fell apart. The question for me is there's this, I think as a regular season guy, I could build a team around him. That's really good. Right? Like you said, I put the ball in his hands. I'm running, I'm going, I have shooters. I'm just, I'm, I'm giving him the car case. He's doing his thing. But when we get to the playoffs and it slows down and it gets super physical and it gets tense and you can feel it in the arena and every every possession is like

squeezing blood from a rock um do i want them out there in those in those situations that's the part i can't wrap my head around well to be a great player to me in life like a superstar not a not a lot of all-stars there's different three all-star superstar a super there's five way to control the game obviously we know rebounding, scoring, assist. Then there's defense. There's leadership. And then the last, which is the most important for a guard, is pace of game. So in the playoffs, when you played the Phoenix Suns with Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, you still had to play fast. Yeah. Like, they make you play at that pace. I don't care who you are.

You're going to have to score 110 points to beat the Phoenix Suns with Jason Kidd or Steve Nash at the point in the playoffs. That's how he has to think. To me, that's what I would be emphasizing if I was a teammate, coach, general manager, or president. Like, you have to play at this pace. And you have to make us play and make the other team say, you got to score 110 to beat us. And if you can do that,

no one's going to give a damn about your jump shot. Well, he's not the player Hakeem was. But everyone forgets there was this Hakeem moment, right, in 92 before he had his three-year run where he wanted to get traded. He was out there. He was available. And I remember there were like Reggie Lewis

for Hakeem trade rumors and shit. Every city had their version of like, can we get Hakeem? A little like what is happening with Dame Lillard now. And I wonder like with this Philly thing, because to me it seems broken. I just don't think Embiid and Simmons make sense together. I don't think they're ever going to make it,

but we kind of felt like with Hakeem in Houston in 92, it's like, oh, well, he can never be the best guy in a title team. He needs to change the scenery. We had all these preconceived things and then he ripped off one of the great three-year runs any center's had. Simmons isn't Hakeem, but it's always,

I always think about that, that sometimes a trade you don't make can be the best trade you make, you know? You know, the trade I was just going to let you know was actually going to go through, and it was Glenn Rice and Lottie Devox for Hakeem Olajuwon. What?

And, yeah. That's it? And I think in a pick. You know, Glenn Rice was, you know, the shooting. Yeah, he was great. He was an all-star at the time. Vlade was Vlade. So, you know, that was a trade that was going down.

And I remember going to Akeem and going, do you really want to not be here? And then, you know. He went to college there. Like he's leaving Houston. He's leaving a place he'd been for 12 years. Yeah, he and I were really close. Most of our team, that 12 guys, like we all had a relationship where we could ask the honest question to each other.

And he kind of danced around it. And so he said, I haven't heard the right thing to make me stay. And then Rudy Tomjanovich, we were talking, and I think we were all sitting around, and we said, he said he hasn't heard the right thing to make him stay. And our owner at the time, Charlie Thomas, we were playing, I'll never forget, we were playing

Seattle, which is a four-hour flight from Houston to, and he sat next to Akeem for four hours and they talked. And the way he started laughing, I heard that Akeem laugh, I was like, he's staying.

I was like, as good as those two guys were, I knew what he was. And I was like, I was so happy when I heard, I could hear his laughter. Like after about an hour and a half into the flight. And I was like, wow, that's the first time we've heard this guy laugh in about three weeks. So what was he unhappy about? I don't even remember. Like, was it a bunch of built-up small stuff or was it a specific thing?

I think that we were a bunch of rack of muffins, man. And, like, there was no commitment to winning. And we were bringing in guys who had shady paths, and he wasn't sure if those guys were built to win. And then he realized that those guys with those shady paths were tough like he was. They just wasn't as talented as he was. And then he believed.

And that was it. And it took everyone to have conversations and they were honest conversations that he would have with us and we would have with him. And, um, and then he decided that I didn't want to be on the block and, you know, and obviously a guy who lived in grown up to Houston, his whole life outside of Nigeria, you know, he wanted to stay. Yeah. There's some instructive stuff there, right? Like Houston doesn't panic, but also like if you're Houston, you're thinking like we have a guy who is one of the best players in the league. And if we trade him, there's really no

scenario where we're matching what we already have. And I think about that with Portland. Now, I don't think Dame's as good as Hakeem either, but he's one of the best nine players in the league, 10 players, whatever your list is, he's a guaranteed playoff spot. And from what we just saw with Milwaukee and Phoenix, like a building block that potentially if you put the right people around them, you might be able to make the finals. And if we learned anything this year, it's like you at least need one of those guys. You need Chris Paul, you need Giannis, whoever it is. So I wonder- You want me to tell you what it would look like if you, if you're Portland and you trade Damon Lillard? Yeah. Tell me. Houston Rockets this year. You say, we're going to rebuild, we're going to trade James Harden. And you look at it and you go,

you're the second worst team in basketball. Like, how did I get here? How did I become the second worst team in basketball and two years ago I was an injury away from being an NBA fighter how does the Chicago Bulls we're talking about Michael Jordan it took them how many years to even make the playoffs until Derrick Rose come

like you got a top five player or you have a top three in his position you can't get rid of those guys. You have to figure out a way to work with them. That's my philosophy and that's my logic. That's how I feel. I haven't seen a superstar trade that I feel 100% on.

I mean, honestly, what New Orleans got for Davis is about as good as you're going to do. But then as the years pass and you look at it, it's like, all right. They haven't made the playoffs. Lonzo's going to leave. They have Brandon Ingram left. The pick that they got in 2019, they traded back and they got a couple guys, none of whom are going to make the All-Star team.

They have a couple picks and a couple pick swaps left, but the Lakers have LeBron and Davis. We could look back in 10 years and be like, wow, they got 30 cents on the dollar. You know? I would never trade anyone from a manager position. I would never trade anyone

because they're unhappy, personally. Yeah, your job is to make them happy. I'm like, wait, what do you mean you're unhappy? I have a billion-dollar organization. Yeah. Doesn't mean that you're... Happiness is temporary. Like, that's momentary and temporary like you know and it's a spiritual is like joy is what is inside of you like you

could be unhappy but we like if i'm using my joy which means you can't help me win. That's when I trade you. But I'm never going to trade you for being unhappy. Ever. Never going to trade you for being unhappy. I got a billion dollar organization. You're so happy. Well, I can make you happy. Yeah. Give me a week. I can make you joyful, which means I can't get a chip.

Are you surprised how fast the Knicks have turned things around, at least the perception that they are now confident? Yeah, you know, being a New Yorker, you know, I always root subliminally for them, even not outwardly.

But they're just as close to being really good, honestly, as being really bad. Again, they're really close in terms of personnel and free agency. Because you're like, two of the three of their

best players are over 30, 35. Those guys are older in their career. Todd Gibson. All those guys who came in and helped them are at the end of their career. And they have to figure out guys who are in the middle or the beginning of their career who could have that kind of input,

which they don't have. And that's the, that would be the scary thing for me. If I was a Nick fan or management, like I could be just as bad easily as I could be just as good. Right, because the only three key, really, ultimately, it's Randle, Quickly, Barrett, Toppin. And maybe Mitchell Robinson if he can ever stay on the court.

But other than that... Yeah, but he wasn't even a guy who helped him, you know, win Mitchell Robinson last year. You know, he was hurt, you know. And R.J. Barrett is developing. But, you know, when he was developing, they weren't that good, you know, yet. And Randall, like, the guy who helped him the most,

you know, Derrick Rose, is at the latter part of his career. And so you don't have a guy who's helped you to that magnitude. And he was your second best player. So that's why I would be a little bit uneasy. And I would realize this draft and this offseason, I would, man, that would be so vital because I could go from a four seed to a 10 seed pretty quickly. Right.

And it's a weird conference too. Because now the Bucs are going to have that title. We won the title confidence. So they're going to be just tougher in general. I think Giannis definitely went up a level. He's not coming down now. You get guys who are veterans who say, I'll go to Milwaukee now.

Yeah. I can win a title. I can win a title. I can win a title. I'll go there. And I'll, you know, I'll be that seventh, eighth guy on the team. Eighth night, man. You know, but even though I should be starting at some other places, you have those guys available to you now. Well, and that was easily the most significant thing that happened in the in the season is Giannis even think about your show you and Chuck and Shaq you're kind of the arbiters of

whether somebody has reached a certain level or not and you're very candid about it and I think it carries a lot of weight with the players we've seen a guy like Joel Embiid like his feelings were really hurt when you guys went at him. I don't think any of you felt like Giannis had a chance to get on the level of, on that kind of Shaq Moses Hakeem level, historically, as somebody who could be that impactful. But he just did it. And now I think he has a chance. I didn't feel that way six weeks ago. And he took shots at everybody who was part

of it. And when he, you know, he's like, I'm not calling guys out, but you called them out. And he said, you know, I could have joined some superstar, you know, super team. But I said, I'm going to do it here

because I'm stubborn. And I didn't want to just do my part. It was hard, and I wanted it to be hard. I did it. And that also the way that sets a chill through the league, and it sets a message through the league when your best player wins a championship. The league is a copycat league. And now people are going to go, well, you're not Giannis.

You can't do it like Giannis. And those guys have the biggest egos just like everyone else. And when you say you can't do it like Giannis, they're going to go, yeah, I can now. I think in the next three to four years, we've got guys like Devin Booker. They won't even think about leaving. You know, leaving that team. Well, it was interesting, the outpouring of it.

And I'm sure you felt it when you won the two titles in Houston. It's one of the funny outcomes, though. And you see it on your show is Shaq and Chuck talking about these guys asking out. It's your job to be a superstar. Chuck, it's a little slippery with him because he definitely wanted out of Philly and pushed his way to Phoenix to play with KJ and Dan Marley

and all that stuff. But now it's like he spun it where they want to get rid of him. I never really, if you go back and read the stories, I think he wanted out more than they wanted to trade him. Chuck has a slippery slope, but the more slippery slope I always mess with him is he goes, wanted out more than they wanted to trade him. Chuck has a slippery slope, but the more slippery slope, I always mess with him. As he goes,

you know, I never played with great players. I'm like, he played with Dr. J and Moses Malone. Right, and Andrew Toney. You play with Andrew, you play with Akeem Olajuwon

and Scotty Pippen. Like, he's like, yeah, but that was, that wasn't Scotty Pippen. Clyde Drexler he played with? He played, KJ was unstoppable in the mid-90s. Yeah, but still, like, yeah, but that wasn't Scotty Pippen. Clyde Drexler he played with?

KJ was unstoppable in the mid-90s. Yeah, but still, he stayed with some guys who were on the top 50 list. So I always give him a hard time and go, you can't say you didn't play with great players. He's like, yeah, but Dr. J was in. And most know they were still great players. He can't say it. He always said he had the great player in his prime. Shaq had Orlando

and got mad, basically, because I don't know, that was petty on both sides, but all of a sudden, he's on the Lakers. That was petty on Orlando. Yeah, it was. They were trying to save... They wanted a Bentley

and they wanted the discount. No, though. If you can't afford a Bentley, you're not supposed to be in the store. You can't wait for the sale. You can't ask for the sale on a Bentley. You got to pay the Bentley and what it is. That's what that car is. There's no sale price on that car.

Well, you know who's in that spot now? It's the Phoenix Suns. Phoenix Suns, who we've never seen Sarver pay the tax. He's got Chris Paul. He's going to want a longer extension. They got Mikael Bridges coming up in a year. They have Ayton's contract coming. They already paid Booker. They're looking at

a situation where they're going to have $400 million guys in 9 to 12 months. We've never seen that dude pay the money. paid Booker. They're looking at a situation where they're going to have $400 million guys in nine to 12 months, and we've never seen that dude pay the money. The other part of it is, though, they're going to see if those guys

are really who they were, or are they the Miami Heat? If you know what I mean. Where the Miami Heat got to the NBA Finals, but we're not talking about those four or five guys on that team with the same reverence that we did last year. And

they're going to have to see if those four or five guys are going to have the same reverence next year. Then you'll know if you have to pay that tax. Well, and you're also in a bitch of a conference. Yeah.

There's not a lot of room in the West. You could go four to 10 really quickly. Because we have Golden State coming back next year. Yeah. We have a healthy Lakers team. We would assume, like, you go on down the line, it's like Denver, Murray will be back by hopefully by March. Utah is still there.

Clippers, I guess would be... You know what the funny thing is, Bill? People used to ask me about how good Milwaukee was and I was like, I'm not 100% sure. They were like, why? I said, because they're in the East. You got 28 games that you should win 24.

It's been a lot of years. When the Knicks were bad, when the Nets were bad, the Wizards, Cleveland, Detroit. You're playing them four times a year. That's 20 games out of those five teams I named, and there's four, three, or four more that I haven't thought of. So I'm like, I'm not sure. You win 60 games in the West.

I know you're good. There's no doubt about it. You're playing Utah four times, Lakers four times, Clippers four times, Denver four times. I know you're good. There's no doubt about it. You're playing Utah four times, Lakers four times, Clippers four times, Denver four times. Like, I know you're good. Like, in the East, you can win 60 games

and not really be a great team. Yeah. What do you expect? What would you want Golden State to do before we go? They got 7-14. They got Wiseman. They got Klay coming back.

There's all these different directions they could go. And everybody's like, no, they should trade those picks for a star. There's no star. It's like, all right, well find me the star.

Washington doesn't want to trade Bradley bill yet. He doesn't want to leave. It's not Ben Simmons. Doesn't make sense. So they're going to end up making these picks and have this weird team of like young guys and guys ready to win the title right now what would you do i'm the golden state warriors with you know i'm anytime i have uh steph curry on the floor i'm trying to win a title me too so any any any way that i can win a title and what is it going to take i'm going to do that i'm never going to to go. I'm building for my future. My future is now.

And this guy's got about a four-year run where he could play at this level. So I got to take advantage of those four years. And at least these three, I got to take advantage of. So I'm getting players in there that are ready to win an NBA title. So you're trading like Wiggins, 7 and 14 for Siakam, those kind of trades? Well, I think Wiggins and Siakam, I'm not sure if that's such a big upgrade, but I'm going to upgrade if I can. I think that, you know, Siakam, I think Wiggins can do what Siakam does

if he had Klay Thompson on the floor with him at the same time. I actually agree with you, but I'm in the Wiggins minority. But Siakam seems like if they're going to upgrade, I think that's best available for them because I don't think they're getting Bradley Beal for what they have. I think Ben Simmons is the biggest upgrade. So you would do that? Yeah, I would definitely take Ben Simmons is the biggest upgrade. Oh, so you would do that? Yeah, I would definitely take Ben Simmons.

Because if you think about what Draymond does, right? Yeah. Draymond is able to get 15, he had 20 assists in a game. Yeah. And he's able to rebound and defend, and he very, very rarely takes shots. But he's not the offensive player that Ben Simmons is in the paint. So he doesn't get into the, he can't drive the lanes

and score the way Ben Simmons can. And Ben Simmons could pass the way he could. Like, so, I would open the floor and have him at the point and have Klay on one,

stretched on one side, and have Steph on the other. He'd have an open lane to the basket. So you're saying it's like almost like, almost like how they used De Guadalla, but like on steroids. Without question. Because the size, the strength,

and his ability to go downhill is better than all of those guys. Yeah. So like Wiggins 7 and 14 for Simmons? Yes. Without question. I kind of, you know,

I never thought of Simmons in the Iguodala spot if you're using their mid-2010 teams. That actually, you know, Iguodala couldn't really shoot either. I don't have to worry about shooting if I have Clay and Steph on the floor.

I don't have to worry about it. I never have to worry about shooting. Plus a couple of free agents, like minimum guys. Yeah. Yep. They're going to spread the floor. I don't have to worry about it. I never have to worry about shooting. Plus a couple of free agents, like minimum guys. They're going to spread the floor enough where I never have to worry. Do you talk to Chuck when the season's not happening, or

do you need to detox from him? Is it like a Chuck diet for you? I do detox, but I did talk to him two days ago. I FaceTimed him. I FaceTimed Shaq the other day. Ah, you missed those guys. Yeah, you know. And I

it's funny. And I FaceTimed Ernie. In the last three days, I did FaceTime on three. One, because I went to the premiere of Space Jam. And my kids, we loved it. And we FaceTimed Ernie. It was like, yo! I was so proud of him in Space Jam. I don't know why. It was so

different because I went to a movie theater, I guess and to see Ernie on a big screen, I actually felt proud for some reason and I was sitting there and when he comes on the screen, I'm like, oh no! And I never had that feeling for him

about him like that. I don't know why I was so proud of him. He's won Emmys. I was just like, oh, good. But I was super proud of him being at Space Jam, which is weird. And then Shaq, I FaceTimed Shaq because he was going to be DJing in Vegas. And I was like laughing about that. And I was talking to Charles, and it was a player comparison

where we would have an argument on who's a better player in the house. I have basketball arguments all the time. And so we had to have Charles. I'm going to call Charles if that's what it is. So I miss him, I guess. It sounds like you do. How are you feeling about North Carolina Hoops next year? Oh, yeah, I'm excited.

I think a lot of good young transfers, a lot of good young freshmen coming in. And then I'm interested to see what you've been doing. I know he's going to have an enthusiasm and excitement that, you know, not to say that Coach Williams doesn't have, but it's your first run. Like, are you kidding me? Like, you're not going to have an enthusiasm and effort that no one else has had or could say they have. So I'm excited to see it.

I'm excited by 100%. Are you going to be like Uncle Kenny, handed out, like, you know, iPhones under the table of different people as they come in? Yes. Like Booster? Booster Kenny? Well, what I am... Like, North Carolina, if you don't understand it, we don't be cool.

We don't have guys called. Yeah, they're lucky to play for North Carolina. You don't need to give them anything. But we also like, we got our own secret handshakes and all that. We make sure that we start giving it to those guys that we want to get here. Right, right.

All right. Well, good luck with Carolina. Good luck with the Jet Academy. It was good to see you. Yeah, and we're going to end with this note. Yeah. There it is, baby. You can't get any better than this.

Great job, baby. You know, in any better than this. Great job, buddy. In the stands, you got 20,000 empty seats. Great job, buddy. Good seeing you, Kenny. All right. Thanks a lot. All right.

That's it for the pod. Thanks to Justin. Thanks to Kenny Smith. Don't forget the Ringer NBA show and the Ryan Rosillo podcast are also diving deep into the NBA draft.

This is a really important one. Three potential all NBA guys as the first three picks and a whole lot more subplots and all kinds of things going on. What's Golden State going to do? Who knows? We're going to find out. Check it out. This podcast was produced by Kyle Creighton,

and I will see you here on Thursday.