The Binge Cases: Denise Didn't Come Home - Watching You | 5. Breaking Point

Episode Date: December 29, 2025

Nique’s daughters take sides. Two take to social media to defend their father while the other can’t believe it. Binge all episodes of Watching You ad-free today by subscribing to The Binge. Visit The Binge Crimes on Apple Podcasts and hit ‘subscribe’ or visit GetTheBinge.com to get access. Join The Binge’s free newsletter – Patreon.com/TheBinge From serial killer nurses to psychic scammers – The Binge is your home for true crime stories that pull you in and never let go. The Binge – feed your true crime obsession. Watching You is brought to you by Sony Music Entertainment. Find out more about The Binge and other podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Listen to all episodes of watching you, ad free right now by subscribing to The Binge. Visit the Binge channel on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page or visit getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. The Binge. Feed your true crime obsession. Does anyone really know what hormones do? There is so much talk about women's hormonal health, but most women are left even more confused about what it means for them.

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just a credit card company. We're people just like you who believe in the power of yes. Yes to new opportunities. Yes to second chances. Yes to a fresh start. That's why we've helped over four million Canadians get access to a credit card. Because at Capital One, we say yes, so you don't have to hear another no. What will you do with your yes? Get the yes you've been waiting for at Capital 1.ca.ca slash yes. Terms and conditions apply. The bench. Hey, y'all. Wanted to let you know, verbal abuse and domestic violence are a part of this story. It's a cautionary tale. To listen to

with caution. When I was a kid, I remember spending long days in the summer outside, playing sports, riding bikes, bouncing on my friend's trampoline. Sometimes I'd lie down in the grass and just stare up at the clouds. And if I looked closely enough, I'd see little movements, tiny specks undulating on the surface of my eyes, blood cells moving quietly across my vision, a movement that most of the time I never noticed. I imagine that's how this long stretch of time felt to everyone involved in the murder case, Nikki Liley. Chris Ford and John Richter were building a case as quickly as they could

under a suffocatingly mountainous body of evidence. Sometimes an indictment seemed to be just around the corner. And other times, it felt impossibly far away. Nikki was found in July of 2011. About six months later, in the new year, Matt moved Amanda and her younger sister Rebecca to Vermont, to the small town of Londonderry. He hadn't been charged with anything. He did seem, though, to be in quite a hurry. It was such a rush. I remember we weren't even really fully packed. And it was like that morning, my dad was like, we have to go. We're leaving today.

There was still like loose things on the floor that we just ended up leaving because it was like, we're just, we're going right now. And we drove up to Vermont in like two days. We had like moving trucks in our two of them in our driveway. And he was like, don't worry about that. Like they're going to come pick them up after we leave, but we have to go today. He made it seem like a fresh start, something he was doing to get them out of the spotlight. I remember him saying something like, because at the time it was like even more so like how my house was no longer my home because it was just I couldn't even go outside and play anymore because there was just news crews always.

Saving the girls from the prying eyes of the news cameras had the knock-on effect of getting them away from the rest of the family. Her older sister Alex was devastated. They felt like they were my kids in a way. So when they left, it just was, I didn't lose a mom. I lost her, a mom and two sisters. And I mean, I knew from the get-go who killed her. There was no question in my mind. So for me, their safety became, it was terrifying.

The court did allow mandated visits between Amanda, Rebecca, and their grandparents. But Alex was not invited. I remember explicitly, my dad was like, Alex cannot be there. She cannot be alone with you. You cannot talk to her. And if she is, you have to call me. You have to call the police. She cannot be there.

For Alex, her sisters remained just out of reach. And for them, she became a twisted story, a yarn, Matt spun. Like, that's kind of when the poisoning against my mom's side of the family started was, well, Amy's saying this and Alex is saying this. And kind of feeding this idea of they're trying to take our dad away from us. eventually it did kind of turn into this we don't want to talk to them we don't want to see them

they're trying to take us away from our dad or put him in jail for something he didn't do so together with their dad the girls started over an a-frame cabin in rural Vermont new school new friends same dark unclear history now in the rear view

they thought but for Alex there were no new beginnings the tragedy was in fact moving in its third act. Last time that came for her, it wasn't a fair fight. She was a kid. Now, she summoned the courage to reclaim her family and justice for Nikki. I didn't want him being paid to kill my mom. So I was like, I don't care if the insurance company never pays this anywhere. Like, you're just not going to get paid to do this.

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and a weekday group pass offers the same weekday travel flexibility from $30 for two people and up to $60 for five. Buy yours at go-transit.com slash tickets. It took a long time to build a criminal case against Matt Liley, years. During that time, Nikki's sister Amy tried to accept what she couldn't change. She knew that Gwinnett and Vermont police were keeping an eye on Matt and the girls, but it felt far away to her. I was like, you know what?

To me, he's gone. And it was sad to me that the girls were also gone. But, again, nothing I could do about it. So I just had to mourn that loss and move on the best I could. But Alex couldn't move on. She couldn't sleep. She was consumed. Alex was in this fight the whole time.

Of course, she was living her life. working, you know, doing day-to-day things, but she was, she was still in that fight that entire time. That is staggering to me. And it was that persistence that brought the case against Matt Liley into sharper focus. It all started when Alex refused to let Matt get Nicky's remains after the autopsy. He was going to try to like cream her, bury her, take possession of her body. He tried to have his own service. And I was like, no, no, you don't get to bury her. You don't get to do that. No. So I had to sue him for her remains, one, not in court. Alex got to have a funeral for her mother at a church in Athens, but it was bittersweet because

her sisters weren't there. Amanda knew the funeral was happening. It wasn't necessarily that he didn't allow us to go, but he made it feel like it was our decision not to go a decision mind you he was leaving up to the discretion of girls nine and 12 years old basically the way he framed it was oh so mommy's funerals today

do you guys want to go do you guys want to go to mommy's funeral he said yes of course and then he was like okay but I'm not invited they're not letting me go and so it was basically like okay now we had to to choose between supporting our dad or getting that closure with our mom

and saying goodbye to her. And so he basically framed it as, like looking back, you can very clearly tell, like he's telling us he doesn't want us to go. Amanda and Rebecca at this point, understand only that their mother had died, tragically, that she'd left late one Friday night and never returned, that their sister and aunt believed their dad had killed her.

It says that the girls were on opposite sides of soundproof glass, shouting into the void. Alex was, no doubt, the loudest voice. And I was like, no, sir, you're not. You might not be arrested yet, but you're a prime suspect in this investigation. And so I sued him. I sued him for the rights to her body, and I sued him over the life insurance. And I was like, no, mm-mm, nope. It turned out, Nikki as a breadwinner had the foresight to take out multiple life insurance policies.

She had three with State Farm. They were worth a half a million dollars, payable at the time of death. And the primary beneficiary was none other than Matt Liley. So Alex's lawyer, a man named Noel Benedict, gave her some advice. You need to sue for wrongful death to stop the life insurance from being paid to him. he was like, you need to stop their life insurance. And the only way to do that right now is to file a civil suit because he's not being charged criminally right now.

That's how Alex, all of 19 years old, opened up another front in her ongoing battle with Matt. It was terribly hard, but necessary. There's a lot of history there. Sorry, I don't talk about that very well. But there was a lot of abuse as a very young child, even as young as four years old. So I think my backbone just comes from needing to survive

and find a way away from him my whole life. State Farm started a routine investigation, as they do in cases of a homicide, into whether or not Matt was involved. Because in Georgia, a murderer can't get insurance proceeds, even if they are the beneficiary. He pleads his case on calls with them. He told one agent that he hasn't been charged,

or arrested and protested his innocence. He also told Carol, that's the name of the agent, that his wife's family blamed him and thought he was controlling. He denied he was. One time in September, about six weeks after Nikki's murder, was particularly revealing. Two state farm agents were comparing notes about Matt, and they not only caught him in a lie,

they found possible evidence of premeditation. Carol said Matt told her, that he didn't know about the life insurance policies. Her male colleague explained that he had email conversations with Matt about Nikki's policies months ago. In other words, before she was murdered. So Alex's lawyer, Noel Benedict, had advised her to sue Matt for wrongful death.

But before that happened, State Farm filed a civil action of their own to determine whether or not they should pay Matt, the money, or whether the insurance payout should go to Nikki's girls. At one point, a bunch of Nikki's family members got deposed. At question for Matt's attorney was the notion that Nikki's family was simply prejudiced against him, that her murder, the questions around the timeline of her disappearance, the clear signs of abuse, were all part of an orchestrated attempt to pin her death on him. And so Matt's lawyer, when he's talking to Alex during her deposition, leaned in. You, and I don't think this is a secret, you dislike Matt Lyley.

Yes. You hate Matt Lively. Yes. And have you ever liked Mr. Liley? No. Do you believe Mr. Liley is a monster? Yes. And have you sent Mr. Liley a text message that says that you want him to ride in jail?

Yes. And have you posted on Facebook? that you think Mr. Liley is a piece of shit? Yes. And do you believe that, in fact, to be the case? Yes. Okay, there's something truly bizarre going on here. It's something I've noticed time and again digging into this case.

Matt's defense rests on this idea that it mattered that Alex wanted him to rot in prison. But she called him a piece of shit on Facebook. But does it really? Because Matt's not fighting to become class president. He's fighting for his freedom. It seems to me that he took the bait and made the insurance payout dispute personal, and by doing that exposed himself in other ways. And this suit, the money at stake, it was enough to bring him back into the sight lines

of the Gwinnett County homicide investigators. When, in 2015, he came down to Atlanta to testify. Once and for all, lawyers from Matt and Alex would each plead their case regarding the insurance payout in federal court. With Matt coming back to Georgia to testify, Richter and the team saw an opportunity. But it was not without risk. Yes, it was in a date. Matt's story had changed depending on who he was talking to.

Footage from the night Nikki disappeared was missing, and it was clear that Matt had had something to do with its disappearance. He'd surveilled his own family for years. But when you think about it, is that enough to convict him of murder? Would a jury really put him behind him? bars for life? Lisa Jones, the assistant DA, knew they needed a contingency,

and they got one by filing a different charge against Matt. Oh, there was lots of planning that went into that, which is why we took the eavesdropping warrants to start with. Because we were trying to figure out a little bit more, and it was difficult, because we could, again, he was in Vermont, and he had left and, you know, gone,

and we knew that he was coming back here for the federal trial on the life insurance. And so we knew that he was going to be here for that trial, which would make our lives a lot easier if he was local. And we did not have to take arrest warrants for him in Vermont and then have to have him extradited from Vermont to Georgia. And Richter told me he was afraid to serve Matt a warrant in Vermont, that it might endanger the girls.

And also, we wanted the opportunity to surprise, the element of surprise, quite frankly, just to see because, you know, he's coming back to try to claim his insurance policy on his wife who we firmly believed at that point and thought we had enough evidence to charge him that he was the one responsible. We absolutely didn't want him getting that insurance money. We wanted the daughters to get what they were entitled to and not him to benefit from it. But it was kind of the idea of let's figure this out. So they went after him on another charge, eavesdropping. We had those recordings where we knew that he'd recorded

Nikki, like I said, talking to her dad, talking to her sister, and it was clear she had no idea that he was going. There were times where she'd talk about him, you know, to them and that sort of thing. And clearly, he had no idea that he's listening to all of it. And in an ironic twist to fate, as Matt boarded a plane from Vermont to Georgia, he had no idea that he was now the one being watched by U.S. marshals in plain clothes who had boarded the flight with him en route to Atlanta. his final destination.

Margo Freshwater. She's like a legend. Hot off a killing spree with a boyfriend twice her age. She was given a life sentence. You'll be delivered to the woman of the state penitentiary in Nashville. They'll be confined for a period of 99 years.

But that didn't last long. She basically walked out of prison. And then she was able to do. to stay hidden for 32 years. But one investigator never stopped looking. It goes from chasing a ghost to she does exist. For over 30 years, Margo Freshwater outran the law. Now she's done running.

And for the first time ever, she's ready to tell her side. I wanted to get my story out there the way it really went down. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is the crimes of Margo Freshwater. Coming January 1st to The Binge, listen wherever you get your podcasts. Amy will never forget the day Matt showed up in court. Though she wasn't there, she was at a Purim carnival at her synagogue. It's a Jewish holiday where you dress up in costume. I was dressed as Sally from The Nightmare Before Christmas, so I had like this big old rag doll wig and, like, you know, stitches, you know, on my face. I looked ridiculous.

That's when Alex called her from the courtroom. So she's like, oh my God, Amy, it was a miracle. She said, he testified, and he just kept talking. And he wouldn't shut up. And she was like, it was like he had diarrhea of the mouth. He was like all over the place and contradicted himself a bazillion times. And she was giving him. about it. She was like, oh, my God. They had no idea what was about to go down. And what we didn't know at the time, but we found out a couple hours later, was that the courtroom was crawling with plain clothes,

going to police, including John Richter. And so they were all there sitting there watching him, perjure himself basically in federal court and then they waited for the court proceedings to be over that day and they arrested him I was stunned I was like oh my god wow I had gotten to a point where like I said up like a point of acceptance where I was like okay this is this is the world I live in now, is that my sister was murdered by her husband and the son of a bitch got away with it.

That was the reality that I had been living in for five years. He was arrested in the courthouse. They stopped him and arrested him that day. Alex was already driving back home. And I was like, damn it, I missed it. Like, I just, because apparently he kind of put up a fight. evidently, my understanding is that he resisted when they arrested him and that it was quite a show. And at one point, I think he mouthed off to him and was like, oh, whatever, you know, I'm going to be out on bond tomorrow and blah, blah, blah.

And the whole time, Richter's like, yeah, buddy, we're booking you for murder. You're not getting Bond. Here's how Richter said it went down. It was just me and my partner, Whaley, and a guy named Dionne Washington. He was in the homicide unit, so we brought him with us. So we surveilled the court a little bit, but we knew, and we communicated because it was federal court, so we had to communicate with the federal people, and the judge had to be aware of what we were going to do. We waited until he got in the elevator. He just exited the doors until, like, the end of the day of court, and that's what we got.

And, of course, don't hurt me, don't. It's the first thing he says, now, Dion, my partner, Washington, a big guy, right? and he's putting the handcuffs on. I'm standing there telling him, you're under arrest, blah, blah, blah, blah, just like TV, right? So he's like, don't hurt me. He's 6'5, he's 2.6. Don't hurt me. Oh, those cuffs, that's such a little, you know what I mean?

Like, he's a big tough guy when he's sitting on Straw and Nikki and abusing her verbally and physically. But when the cops were arresting him, Matt asked them to not hurt him. Nearly four years. After John Richter made that promise in the woods, they found Nikki's body, he delivered. Matt was placed in the front seat of Richter's unmarked detective car. And now we're driving back, right? This is a good 40-minute drive, and I want to talk to him. I want this guy to talk to me.

He goes to sleep. That's how, you know, that's how concerned he was. He just dozed off. You know, I'm just trying to shoot the shit. I'm trying to build rapport. You know, I know him. He thinks I'm an idiot. He sends it over the, not me personally, but the police in general.

And that's something you don't forget when someone's. says, oh, those cops are all just stupid. You already told us in the car. I ain't talking to you. But we like to sit down, put him in the chair, right, and read him his rights. And that's what I told him, you know, not just the eavesdropping warrant, but you're being charged with murder as well. Alex slept well that night for the first time in a long time. I don't think my grief process started until he was arrested.

I don't think I even processed that she was dead until he was arrested because all I didn't sleep at night I mean I lived on Kalanavan to be perfectly honest because it was the only way I could sleep because I was scared he was coming for me and rightfully so because I'm pretty sure he wanted to bury me

and I'm the bitch he was talking about in that call Paul I want to bury the bitch I want to bury old fucking family Matt was assigned a public defender. It's astonishing how effective Matt had been at keeping Alex from his daughters. While he was behind bars awaiting trial, Amanda and Rebecca stayed with Matt's father at that cabin in Vermont. Matt's car sat unused, his things unmoved.

Everything in that house was supposed to be on pause until he got back. You couldn't touch his car because he was coming back. It was never touched, never driven. He was coming back and that was all of his stuff. And their job, in the meantime, was to help him get out. I basically became his lawyer because he didn't trust the public defender. And so the phone calls were every single day. And we were probably talking to him for like three hours a day.

And even like the ones where I'm not really talking, like I was on the phone. Like we had two lines and we would be on separate phones on the same line. So it's like even like we're like I would answer the phone and like maybe say something. And then he'd have me put Amanda on. Like I'm still on the line like the same. The girls had to be ready to take his call. Thank you for using Securus. You may start the conversation now.

I don't know. I told the man to do it, and she was like, you can do it. Get the iPod and plug it in. And I was like, I don't know where to plug it in. You guys have your fun. Okay. Have your fun. When I get home, both of you, say goodbye to your lives outside the house. That includes sports, boyfriends, everything. So have your fun now. Okay? Because when I get home, it's going to be different. You may start the conversation now. Make a note of this.

granddaddy while I was talking to him he flat out says I never knew nothing they don't tell me nothing they yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I need on tape okay I need you to this week up until January whatever you're gonna have to go back and review some of those recordings and find some juicy stuff that we can use on our evidence I need to find the cassette recorder and the power cord for you don't forget Because if I call you tomorrow and decide to do it or something, I want to say, oh, I didn't call and do this and that. I mean, I might as well just go to fucking prison.

I'm sorry that, you know, reminding you 16 times to do something. I mean, it's just too much trouble. It really is. I have more stress over getting you to do something. Did you even tell Poppe about the fucking bills? Yeah. Oh, no, I was going to tell him later. It was basically I'd go to school.

I'd come home. I'd try and get as much homework as I could done before he called. And then he would call, and he'd ask, oh, did you do this, this and this? Hey, buddy. Hi. I listen, I've got to ask you for something, and I'm probably going to have to threaten you and everything else, okay? I need you by Monday to write a report on all eight or nine videos. The first line will be this video is from the deposit, from the wrongful death.

deposition dated blah blah blah blah blah blah I need that by Monday this is life or death I need it by Monday for all videos I will if you don't do it by Monday I will take your phone away forever okay this is my life you understand yes sir sometimes I could lie and get away with it or sometimes he'd call me out on it like oh did you hear this part and I say oh yeah I heard that and he's like oh well that wasn't in that recording so you're lying so like I'd get in trouble for not doing the lawyer homework he responded because I was doing my school homework instead. And I tell him, like, I'm sorry I had this big assignment for AP Bio. And he's like, well, do you want me to come home or not? There was one point where he was like, do you

love me? So it became like, if he was found guilty, it was my fault. I did not do enough research. I did not do my job. The research he was talking about was about her mom's murder. She had to listen to all the same recordings that John Richter did. He's got me researching what wines have the highest caused the highest GHB levels to use for his defense. GHB is a chemical commonly found in the so-called date rape drug. The toxicology report had noted elevated levels of it in Nikki's body after she died. Matt's demands on Amanda and Rebecca were unrelenting. Their lives were basically consumed with his legal problems.

Perhaps the most egregious example of Matt using the girls for his protection was the YouTube videos. The YouTube videos, we released them right before the bail hearing. Amanda cut them all herself. We need to make sure our side of the story gets out. Everything's always all been that side of the family. I know once my mom married my dad, she finally started standing up for herself and started saying no and started saying that she wanted nothing to do with her family. And they've never liked my dad. And I've been reading things online.

I've been watching the news and I can see the hatred that they have for my dad. And it's just ridiculous the lies they're spreading. We need to get our story out so then the public knows and I don't remember if he actually said this or if he just like kind of insinuated. But I think part of it was to also prior to the trial make sure that jury members or possible jury members would see this stuff and he could sway them before the trial. The videos take aim at Nikki, claiming she heard voices the morning she called 911. They imply that her father might have had something to do with her death. It was a retired chemist for the EPA. Funny if you do, our grandfather, he's the sweetest goofball.

He used to do an impression of Donald Duck all that time. He still does. He still does it. It's a very, very good Donald Duck, too. He's kind of aloof. Like, he's just, sorry. He's not plotting the murder of his daughter. The YouTube videos question the manner and timing in which the body was found.

The police who would search for her body for a week, it's their job to find missing people. And Alex and her sister and Amy managed to go to search parties together and find her body in seven minutes. And the news crews happened to be there to find this all. and I just, I find that really suspicious and really off-putting. And perhaps, given what we know now, the most alarming of claims, the Nikki's own peril inside the relationship with Matt was itself a fabrication. The media and the news, they picked up on a Jerry Springer-type sob story

of domestic violence, and they spread it like wildfire all over the place. honestly, we can't wait to face his family in court and call out their lives and they've done nothing but cause us pain and torment and our day in court will come and hopefully my dad will be able to come home. In one video after these words, the screen goes black,

then says, Nikki's voice will be heard and the truth will come out. At least that part was true. Amidst all this chaos with the upcoming trial in Matt's demands, Amanda and Rebecca are so young, 16 and 13 years old, believing or at least behaving as people who believed their dad was innocent. But despite having been through this together, despite sharing a room and a bunk bed, they weren't confidants.

We didn't talk much at all. Even while still being scared of him, like I still believed he was innocent. And even in the years when he was arrested, and as I was saying, like, Amanda and I was just like, it was like two ships in the night. Like it was like we were not, we didn't really talk to each other. Like when it was at school, like it was like people were surprised when they like would know that we had the same last name and they're like, are you guys related? And it was like, yeah, she's my sister. but it was like we just didn't have any of that type of relationship. And the relationship between the girls and their grandfather wasn't any better.

Legally, he was our guardian, but I was the one that was managing the bank account and making sure bills were paid and making grocery lists and meal plans. Like, he would cook, but it was, okay, this is the meal plan I had set up Monday night. We're making this. These are the groceries we bought. This was the budget. making sure that my dad's commissary was paid and the jail phone calls and all of that. Like, he had money in his account.

My grandfather didn't do any of that. Rebecca increasingly leaned on her best friend. I basically clung to my best friend at the time, and I was around her 24-7. Like, I was either at her house, she lived not too far down the road, or she was at mine. And I feel horrible that I put her in that position, but she did. become that shield for me. And my grandfather would still scream at me in front of her. They would fight about little things, like who left the ceiling fan on.

But Rebecca and Amanda remember someone who, like his son, their dad, could be combative and angry. These girls no longer had a father or a mother. They barely seemed to have each other at that time. And the environment they were living in was neither supportive, or loving from their accounts. But when their father finally went on trial for the murder of their mother,

they testified on his behalf. They tried to convince the world what they had been led to believe that he couldn't possibly have killed their mother. Is this gentleman here you're down? Yes. Okay. And you love him, right? Of course.

Very briefly described the relationship that your mom and did. They loved each other. Did they ever fight, argue? They did argue, yes. Did you ever see your dad hit your mom? No. Did you ever see any obvious injuries or bruises to your mom?

No, sir. Next time, the series finale of watching you. Matt Liley is on trial for Nikki's murder. I remember when the lawyer asked if I loved my dad, the blocking kicked in that I had been taught. And I remember saying, yes. And then I, like, remember, like, turning and looking at my dad, It was like, that was the director.

The conviction brings justice, but doesn't bring closure. I've trashed my mom to the world. I've made her out to be crazy. And for the first time in many years, Nikki's girls come together to pick up the pieces. It's a work in progress because I genuinely believe it's all born out of fear of losing one or the other because we've all lost each other in some capacity already. And so we feel like we'd rather have a little thread than nothing at all.

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Head to getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. an original production of Sony Music Entertainment. It's hosted and reported by me, Jonathan Hirsch. Jason Hoke of Waveland Media is our lead producer and co-reported the series with me. Catherine St. Louis is our story editor. From Sony Music Entertainment, the executive producers are Catherine St. Louis and Jonathan Hirsch.

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