The Binge Cases: U R NEXT - GOING UNDERCOVER

Episode Date: August 4, 2022

Alex Schuman, host of Puppy Kingpin, spoke to Deborah Howard, the president of CAPS, the Companion Animal Protection Society, and an undercover investigator who goes by the pseudonym Pete Paxton. In this bonus episode, they discuss the patterns they see breeders using to skirt laws, why the USDA falls short, and Deborah and Pete defend their use of undercover videos to expose what's happening on the ground. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, this is Alex Schumann, the host of smokescreen puppy kingpin. I am speaking today with a couple of people from the group Capps, which stands for the Companion Animal Protection Society. Now, you get to hear their videos and evidence they collected in the podcast, but you don't get to hear much from my interviews with them, so we wanted to offer this bonus episode. I'm joined by the founder of Caps, Deborah Howard, and Pete Paxton, one of the undercover investigators for Caps. And I should note that he is so undercover. that Pete Paxton is actually a pseudonym he uses so that he can take on different identities when he's investigating pet stores and breeders. Thank you both for talking with me today. Deborah, you are based in California where a lot of these rescue puppies ended up coming. Can you tell me how you first discovered the scheme? Oh, there were certificates of veterinary inspection going to pet shops in California from a hobo canine rescue.

This was probably the spring of 2018. So they were testing it out before the law actually was in effect. And then we went to investigate, like Escondido Pets, which was owned by David Salinas, was one of the first ones to use it. And you're the only group that's done these undercover videos where you capture pet store owners and breeders talking about how they sell puppies. Why do you think getting those things on video is so important? I love the catch does that.

When there's a debate around this, it takes. different paths. One of the paths that it takes is that we're simply making stuff up, right? That we say they're getting from puppy mills, but they say that they're not. Well, he said, he said, what are you going to do with that, right? So out of all of that, the first thing to discuss would be who's telling the truth. And the way that you know that is you get right up there in person with a camera, covert mic, and you ask them, where do your puppies come from? And you've got to be specific, right? The first thing you'll notice is that, They're going to say stuff that's like responsible breeders.

We love them. You know, they're Class A. That means of the best. Class A USDA, right? But you got to get specific. Are these, do they keep dogs in the home or a kennel? How many dogs do they have? What do they do with these dogs when they're done with them?

And then we document the breeders. And it's, there is no argument. There is no debate. This is what they claim. And these are what the breeders actually are. It's just night and day. So by going to all of these stores, Kapps is able to irrefutably prove the stores lie and we can, and we have the truth. What do you tell the people who are critical of the undercover video sactic?

I guess the first thing I'd say is, you know, grow up. But besides that, okay, here's the purpose behind undercover work. Undercover work, surveillance as well, but particularly undercover work, it should, shows what people say and do when they believe they have no accountability for their actions. It shows the true nature of people. And what caps has proven, because we've done so much undercover work, at so many pet stores, so many puppy mills, is that this is predictable. You can predict people are going to lie to you when you go to a pet store. And you can predict that dogs are going to be neglected and abused at breeding facilities.

So, yeah, I would say, you know, like, if grow up, I mean, it's a necessary tactic. Here's more along the lines of what they say. They say that we doctored the footage. So the way things are with that is there's a history of law enforcement and prosecutors taking evidence and using it, right? Now, most of the time they don't, and less lately, law enforcement typically does not like to interfere with commercial animal operations, right?

But when it comes to like Joe Linothi, or it comes to like, you know, like if I've worked, when I've worked undercover at puppy mills for caps, you know, law enforcement jumps on that. So, I mean, for people that want to say it's doctored or it's fake, well, the prosecutors are using it and they've seen all of the raw evidence that I've gotten.

The number of bans on the sale of puppy mill puppies keeps growing. Are you starting to see results or are the breeders still able to get around these laws? Breeders are able to get around them to a degree, but we're still seeing results. Part of the results is that increase in adoptions from local shelters. If people can't buy puppies at pet stores where they offer you financing and they're so convincing about responsible breeders, right, then, you know, more people adopt. And you have some breeders that will get around it with fake rescues or they're selling online, right? And that's, that is still an issue. But the reason that you're seeing less people that are licensed with the USDA and adoptions increase

is not just that you have this impact on an individual level. There is an impact on social consciousness that when a when the government says you know what like this is not how we want our part of society to be right here we don't want people selling puppies from breeders that it validates that animal welfare is a should be a concern to the public and it validates that what we're saying is the truth between 2010 and 2015 the number of USDA licensed a and B dealers so A being breeders, B being brokers who could also breed, went from 5,000 to 3,000. Oh, wow. Yes.

Because there's fewer pet shops, there's fewer breeders. However, they're now more breeders selling online. And then my last question is, do you expect to see more fake rescues, or do you think that too many officials are now figuring it out? Yeah, it's still happening. I think people are going to be more cautious, though, because of how we went after them in California. Yeah. I think that when you pass a law, there's always going to be people that want to get around it.

It doesn't mean the law shouldn't exist. The importance with this law is that the commodity that you have being moved involves victims. The dogs in these breeding facilities are victims. The puppies that get sick and that die on the way, they are victims, right? So on the one hand, it's easy to look at this and be like, okay, you should legalize pot, maybe not meth. Right. You know, like people are still going to get that in a black market, but don't legalize meth, right? Or like, you know, assault weapons, right? It's not like everyone that can buy one legally is going to figure out how to buy one on the black market. Good luck with that, right? You know, with the fake rescues, I believe there will be an increase in them, but it's going to slowly die off. And a big part of that is going to be that not just the lack of availability, of puppies from stores, but again, that

there's going to be a social stigma that you bought a puppy from a breeder, and that if you bought this eight-week-old puppy from a supposed rescue that costs $6,000, you know, that's that

maybe you didn't look into the rescue too well. Thank you both for speaking with me today, and thank you to everyone for listening. The entire season of Smok Screen Puppy Kingpin is now out wherever you get your podcasts.