The Binge Cases: U R NEXT - My Mother’s Lies | 6. The Unraveling

Episode Date: May 6, 2026

The star witnesses from 2008 face a massive decision. Will Ray’s efforts to expose his mom’s fabrications get Quincy Cross a new trial? Want the full story? Binge every episode of My Mother’s Lies ad-free now by subscribing to The Binge+. You’ll unlock over 60 true crime series instantly, get early access to drops on the first of every month, and hear exclusive bonus episodes. Search for the channel on Apple Podcasts or head to GetTheBinge.com. For behind-the-scenes details, join our free newsletter at Patreon.com/TheBinge. My Mother’s Lies is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and Message Heard. Follow @sonypodcasts and discover more at sonymusic.com/podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices at podcastchoices.com/adchoices. The Binge — feed your true crime obsession. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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They buy and sell cars, so they made a car cup holder. So, uh, got any good cups lately? Used to. I just couldn't figure out where in the world to put them. The World Cup holder. Brought to you by Carvana. Proud sponsors of the World Cup Holder. Sign up today to win yours at CUP-Holder.

Not authorized or endorsed by FIFA, not a real product for parody and fair use purposes only. Listen to every episode of My Mother's Lies, ad free right now when you subscribe to The Binge. You'll hear the entire series before anyone else. Get exclusive bonus episodes and unlock more than 60 other true crime podcasts. Just head to the binge channel on Apple Podcasts and tap subscribe or visit getthebinge.com to listen wherever you are. The Binge, feed your true crime obsession. It's December 18th, 2025.

17 years since Quincy Omar Cross was found guilty of Jessica Curran's murder. 17 years of denied appeals, frustration and despair. And it all comes down to today. A shot at freedom. We're at the Graves County Circuit Court on the final day of a new evidential. hearing. Over the previous days, Quincy's defense team has scrutinized a number of eyewitnesses and their testimony that were so critical to the 2008 prosecution and conviction of Quincy Cross. But today, the focus shifts to the men deemed responsible for extracting that testimony.

Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm going to get your attention just a second. Not to lose the patience. that is the voice of special judge Tyler Gill. The man on the stand, who Judge Gill is reprimanding, is former KBI agent Lee Wise. So is this how you talked with the young girls in this case during the interrogations? No.

This is Quincy's defense attorney, referencing the infamous Drury Inn interviews, where agents Lee Wise and Bob O'Neill aggressively interrogated young witnesses, including Victoria Caldwell and Jessica's cousin, Venetia Stubblefield. You didn't talk over them when they were trying to tell you what they knew? No, not to remember. You testified earlier that you knew that Venia Stubblefield was afraid. I remember saying that. I think you need to give me a little more than that when was, did I say she was like, why?

Just a few minutes ago. So far, Lee Wise has been. been pretty argumentative, obstructive even. And if he goes on like this, he's at risk of being held in contempt, so he should be careful. I can't answer something that you're asking a question, but you're answering it for me.

Quincy's attorney doesn't get much further before the judge steps in again. Do we need to take a break for about 10 minutes? Because I don't want something bad to happen here. The judge calls for a 10-minute recess so Agent Wise can compose himself. 17 years ago, it was Quincy and a handful of witnesses who were in the spotlight facing an interrogation. Now the tables have turned.

So what exactly happened in these 17 years to bring us to this point? And will the story Susan Galbraith helped the KBI construct finally be reckoned with? And will it be enough to warrant a retrial for Quincy Cross? From Sony Music Entertainment and Message Heard, this is My Mother's Lies. I'm Beth Karras. This is our finale. Episode 6, The Unravelling. Let's go back to 2008.

Quincy has been convicted. In the fallout of the trial, his remaining co-defendants continued maintaining their innocence. But Tamara Caldwell, Quincy's one-time girlfriend, and Jeff Burton, who lived at the house near the school where Jessica's body was supposedly stored, are now pushed by their attorneys to take plea deals. Here's private investigator and former cop, John Poole. Well, I think both of them had seen what happened to Quincy, and they'd been locked up for months before that,

and then certainly if I was setting in a jail cell and I saw that happen, I would be worried. Our producer Alice recently caught up with Jeff to ask him about that time. I'm thinking Quincy goes to trial. I'm going to go home. You know what I'm saying? They find him guilty. I'm just kind of going off my emotions of what I'm reliving in my head.

It just sucks, man. It's okay to be emotional. Both Tamara and Jeff took what's known as Alfred, please. Legally, it's not an admission of guilt. They don't utter the words, I did this, I'm guilty, but it's where the accused accepts that there is sufficient evidence to convict and chooses not to contest it at trial. Jeff Burton went to prison for seven years.

The time that was wasted, or I missed, I should say. My youngest one was two, he got out, he was nine. My oldest was seven, she was 14. By the ones of four, she was 11. an ordeal that has left him with PTSD. I felt like I was pleading to God, you know what I'm saying, so to speak. Like, dude, I can't endure no more. Similarly, Quincy's ex-girlfriend, Tamara,

would serve nearly six years of her 10-year sentence. One person who did not take the Alfred plea after Quincy was convicted was Austin Leach, the owner of the White Cadillac. Austin had a good defense team and decided to take his chances at trial. Unlike Quincy's public defender, Austin's attorney methodically dismantled the witness's inconsistencies and poked holes in the prosecution's narrative. In one gotcha moment, Victoria Caldwell failed to correctly identify Austin in the courtroom. In the end, the jury returned a different verdict. Austin was acquitted. Our producer, Alice, recently spoke with him, too.

He said he wants to move on with his life. and declined to participate in a recorded interview. Private investigator John Poole, who you've been hearing from, assisted Austin's legal team. He thinks Austin had more in his favor than just better representation. As a white defendant, Austin may have faced a different type of scrutiny than Quincy Cross. So really, it was the same. Basically, the trial was similar, the girls and all.

But we had a different jury. So Quincy's trial was moved. outside of Mayfield to another town where the majority of people were white. And Quincy is black. I think that taking that case to Clinton, Kentucky, in a little place where the limited jury pool made it harder. And the jury was 11 white persons and one black. In fact, during this production, John Poole told us he's heard that the one black female

juror at Quincy's trial felt intimidated by the other 11. so it's hard for me to believe that race didn't play a role in Quincy's conviction. Meanwhile, following the convictions of Quincy and the others, back in the UK, Tom Mangold continued his coverage, writing a piece for another British newspaper in April 2009. In it, he tells of their investigation and Susan's heroic efforts. In the U.S. too, the press heralded the citizen sleuth who solved a murder. Virtually every day. She became convinced this man, Quincy Cross, in a drug haze. First assaulted Jessica Curran, then strangled her.

Tom emails Susan, writing, quote, I'll make you famous yet. In this 2008 CBS broadcast following the convictions, Susan once again repeated her claim about Quincy stalking her. She asked so many questions. She says at one point, Cross started stalking her. I kept thinking Crosshead had to be involved somehow. In the following months, Susan is interviewed on Japanese TV

and does at least one paid interview for women's own magazine. But it's the hope of a Hollywood film that she's really holding on to. In a radio interview with Tom Mangold here in the States, he confirms their story is being optioned, a contract we understand Susan may have received a substantial payment for. I have read on your website, Mr. Mangold. that there is a film in the works about this subject. I received approximately 15 to 16 film offers.

The script has been written, and don't ask me who's going to play me, because I wanted Brad Pitt. Around the same time, Tom is preparing his own two-part BBC radio documentary. You've been hearing snippets of it throughout this series. In 2010, he headed back to Mayfield to gather fresh interviews, Along with noting the local concerns over the investigation, he also now finds that the witness stories have continued shifting.

His interview with Victoria Caldwell is particularly problematic. Her story has continued to change. Weapons, dates, and vehicles are still confused, details that don't match what she said at trial. In 2011, he asked Lacey Gates, Susan's friend and assistant, to speak with Victoria to clarify some things. When Lacey writes back, she drops a bombshell.

According to Lacey, Victoria has apparently recanted much of her original testimony, admits she lied, and that she now has nightmares about it. Tom fires off an email back to Lacey asking her not to get Susan involved because, quote, we need her to stay well out of controversy for the purpose of the movie. He then emails Bob O'Neill, directly raising his concerns about, quote,

Victoria's veracity and status as a key witness. Tom's concerns and questions to the KBI appear to go largely unresolved. And in early January, 2012, he emails his doubts to Lacey. I'll read this in full, because it's

explosive. I'm just beginning to wonder, this is a tiny worm of an idea in my wine-soaked brain, that there is a teeny weeny, itsy-bitsy chance, and we've got the whole fucking murder story wrong, and that there may have been a huge miscarriage of justice, that Burton and Tamara may be wholly innocent, that Jay was killed on the school playing fields, and that there's something wrong about the KBI investigation. Please tell me I'm losing my sanity. Now, this is troubling, shocking.

I mean, I am apoplectic over this. Tom admitting that Susan's story, the one they've been corresponding about for almost a decade, the story that directly contributed to the convictions against many people might be wrong. Again, we asked Tom to participate in this podcast. He declined, but he did have this to say via email. He acknowledged that Victoria's statements have changed a lot over the years, but that he felt after interviewing her twice himself and discussing these interviews at length with the KBI and lacking any credible alternative suspect or scenario, he remains convinced that Quincy is guilty and that Victoria was involved. He also stated that he does not recall sending that email expressing his doubts to Lacey Gates, saying, quote, my feelings in 2012 were not my feelings later, which I changed.

Whatever the extent of his doubts, a few months later in May 2012, his BBC radio documentary aired, with the Susan prosecution story unchanged. Victoria's reported recantation is not included. Here's Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Maggie Freeling discussing this unsettling turn of events. When Lacey gets involved, she virtually tells Tom this, like, hey, there's something off, like Victoria's recanting, did you know this? And that's when I see Tom actually lean more into this theatrics and less journalism,

because he goes ahead and publishes this article in which Victoria is the linchpin of this whole thing. Maggie cares so much about the miscarriage of justice in this. case that she hosted her own podcast, Season 3 of Bone Valley, which is devoted to Jessica Curran's murder. As a journalist, Maggie thinks Tom needed to disclose in his documentary the fact that Victoria had allegedly recanted. He's a journalist. When you have right in front of you, the simplest thing someone saying, hey, Victoria recanted, your due diligence before you publish that article is to go talk to Victoria, did you recant what happened and put it in that article?

He intentionally did not do that. He had this information and did not put it in. And that breaks your oath as a journalist to do no harm and tell the truth. We can't be sure if Tom ever did share his doubts with Susan or repeat what Lacey told him about Victoria's alleged recantation. But it seems similar doubts were starting to spread throughout Mayfield. As the rumor mill churned, the idea that something was wrong with the 2008 convictions grew, as did the idea that Susan had been seeking to profit from this tragedy. Here she is complaining about the local reaction in a 2010 interview with Tom Mangold.

What should have been the high point of my life was dampened by negativity. The treatment that I've gotten from a lot of people here, I don't think I deserve it. I've been degraded. I've been called names. It seems Susan was no longer enjoying life in the spotlight. She started receiving hate mail and abusive comments on her MySpace page. One person even suggested it was she who really killed Jessica.

Presumably adding to Susan's disappointment was the fact that, after all her efforts, she also never received the reported $9,000 reward money for helping solve the case. Turns out, it had all been spent or donated to charity by City Hall. If Susan hoped this blowback would eventually pass, she was wrong. As time went on, those rumors would grow into a clamor, as her critics united to try and reverse what was increasingly believed to be a gross miscarriage of justice. I had talked to the frequency once on the phone. I've met his mom, his sisters, and his dad, and I had talked with his dad several times,

and he just wants the son to get help and get out of jail. In Mayfield, over the years, rumors of witness coercion spread. Residents banded together and shared theories. Wrongful conviction groups got involved. And eventually, a frequency cross movement built online. support. Today, one of the most vocal advocates for Quincy's innocence is perhaps one of the most surprising, Jessica Curran's father, Joe. I would like for it to be on record that I do feel like that they got the wrong people. I don't think that Quincy was involved in Jessica's murder.

I think Quincy was involved in drugs, and Susan knew that, and Susan didn't like him, and he was a newcomer to Mayfield. And so she put him in it, and they stayed with that story. The victim's own father believes Quincy to be innocent. I've seen this in other cases. In fact, here, Joe Curran's been working with Quincy's dad, David, for years to help him get his son's conviction overturned. Now, at this point, we should probably acknowledge a voice you haven't heard from in this series, Quincy's. A bit like at his 2008 trial, he now chooses to remain. silent. We're in touch with his legal team and have exchanged emails with Quincy. He told us he can no longer trust the media after everything he's been through. And that's understandable.

However, he has spoken out in the past. Here's what he had to say in 2003 to the Unforbidden Truth podcast. My code if I still don't know him. It's supposed to be my code for him. Now, Leticia's double fear. I let me be heard to probably 2002. I right after me and Chambra got together, but I still don't know her either. I don't know nothing about this stage. I know I'm locked up for us. What's something I don't know nothing about it?

And it's not right, because I do know that I did not commit this horrific crime. I do know that. We did, however, manage to speak with his sister Rochelle, who still, to this day, can't believe a jury found her brother guilty. For them to just take somebody's word of mouth testimony and convict somebody for the rest of their life, I said, that is unheard of that's insane. At least I have some evidence to back it up.

There's nothing to back it up. You see, even during the 2008 trial, there was controversy when one female witness broke down on the stand and recanted. In the end, her testimony wasn't pivotal, but that witness got sentenced to five years for first-degree perjury, which of course, would have made others hesitant to publicly come forward with their own recantations. That is, until years later, when in 2012, Venetia, Jessica's cousin, officially recanted and signed an affidavit in the presence

of a Kentucky Innocence Project investigator. It was a bold move. Reason why I lie like I did is because they told me that if I did tell what they wanted me to say, they were still gonna charge my mom with the, pipe that she had in her parts. In that interview, Venetia's mom even speaks up, corroborating her daughter's claim and actually accuses KBI agents of planting the crack pipe in question.

Then, in 2014, Joe Curran writes an affidavit directly against Susan, quote, I was contacted by Susan Galbraith, who was a friend of Jeremy Adams's mother, and she offered her assistance in solving the murder. I later found out that she had no law enforcement or investigative training and appeared to be motivated in part by reward money." Two years later, it was Susan's best friend, Lacey Gates, who came forward. With a heavy heart, Lacey calls out Susan and writes her own affidavit to say she thinks Susan's story is untrue.

In her statement, Lacey writes, quote, it came to my attention during the course of the investigations. I feel that Susan Galbraith directed the police in the wrong direction and the wrong people were convicted. End quote. In the same statement, she also challenged Susan's decade-old claim that she was stalked by Quincy Cross. Quote, she later found out that it was her estranged husband, Marty Galbraith,

but she never corrected this fact to anyone. End quote. If Susan felt depressed before, Or, Lacey's U-turn must have felt like a personal betrayal. At least, that's her son, Ray's view. So this was Lacey, basically, you know, like, look, I'm done kind of like I'm done with my mom, you know. In the end, Ray suspects his mother knew deep down. Something wasn't right with her story.

You think she knew? I think she knew that Quincy didn't do it, but she's so far into it. She was under oath saying some things. Just logically, I would think, that there was, there's a lot of lies in there that she didn't want anybody to know. Ray had always wondered why his mom stopped engaging with the currents after they began to doubt Quincy's conviction. For me, if my mom wanted to stay in the good of all this, she should have just stayed with the currents. It's their daughter that all this is about. And once again, this goes back to her being wrong.

In the end, Ray believed Susan was fixated on what she, she thought was the ultimate prize, fame and fortune. Tom started throwing movie ideas out, and I mean, I could almost see the hamster wheel in my mom's head just going crazy, just, oh, wow, yeah, movies this, movie. She talked about the people that would play her. You know, they talked about the people who would play Tom, and it's like, as far as my mom is concerned, it's already there. She's just got to get there.

But as we know, Susan never did get there. Susan drifted away from both Lacey and Tom. She drifted away from Mayfield, slipping further into depression. Found out later, she was doing meth, which I never even when a million years would have thought. Towards the end? Yeah. Eventually, Susan left Ray's life as well, but not before landing a final blow. She told me around the end that she apologized because she could never feel it.

for me, for a son. Like parental love? She didn't know how to love me as her child. That's really tough. Yeah. After that, Susan and Ray were basically estranged. One of the last times he saw her, he was shocked by how much her health had deteriorated.

I've seen her weaker than I've ever seen her. You know, I've seen her disheveled. You know, my mom was never like that. On July 27, 2018, Susan crashed her car. The responding officer thought she was drunk, and he arrested her. It turned out that she'd had a stroke. She suffered another stroke in her jail cell and never woke up. I found out that happened and that she was in the hospital and I went to go see her, but she was unconscious.

It just sucks because you never, I didn't get a chance to make up with her. You always think you'll have one more chance, you know, but I didn't. And she didn't either. What would you want to say to her if you had that chance? I guess she'd love her. If you want a deeper look behind Cut, Color, Kill, now is the time. Join our free newsletter at patreon.com slash the binge, and you will get exclusive story details.

you can't get anywhere else. Again, join me at patreon.com slash the binge. Want more true crime? Subscribe to The Binge to get all episodes of You Are Next, add free today, and get instant access

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scene lands ad-free in your feed. Search for The Binge on Apple Podcasts or head to getthebinge.com to subscribe today. The Binge, feed your true crime obsession. In spite of everything Susan did, in spite of everything Ray now knows, she's still his mom. And of course, Ray was left with a terrible burden

and still struggles with her legacy and specifically her lasting impact on Quincy. I just feel so sorry. I'm just so sorry for him. There's nothing I could say that could undo or change anything that my mother's done. As it turned out, Ray would end up doing something incredible, something that would give Quincy his best shot at freedom yet. Remember back before Quincy's 2008 trial, how Susan refused to send his defense team all of her hard drives and email correspondence? Well, once Ray started working with Alice's colleagues at Blink Films,

they didn't just realize Susan was a liar. They realized they had the means to expose her wrongdoing and perhaps get Quincy a retrial. What these emails were were conversations between Susan Galbraith and Tom Mangold and Susan Galbraith and the KBI. And the emails to me were shocking. If during Quincy's trial, I think if they'd no need to be, extent of Susan's involvement in this case and influence on law enforcement, it might have

changed the outcome for Quincy. And so the next stage was, well, we need to give this evidence to someone. And there was this ethical obligation to give it to the Innocence Project that were working to get Quincy out of prison. So that's what we did. The person who they turned them over to was Miranda Hellman, Quincy's attorney at the the Kentucky Innocence Project. And so when those emails came through, it took a while. It took a minute. There was a shock factor to it of there's something to this.

Miranda had always felt Susan was a major factor in the prosecution's case, but was never quite sure how. So we spent a straight 24 hours. I'm pretty sure I didn't sleep that night going through cataloging, trying to put these emails back in order. As she sorted through these 300. or so emails, it was like a key turning in a lock. Suddenly, she understood. She also finally understood why it was that more information hadn't been available to Quincy's original defense team.

Another piece of these emails really pointed to her working with the KBI agents to ensure that as little information got turned over to Quincy's attorneys. And so once I saw the other side of the coin. The backside of the coin was skeezy. It was slimy. It was meetings in a diner about how to not have to turn over information to a subpoena. With the emails in hand and witnesses now recanting, Miranda petitioned for a new evidentiary hearing for Quincy Cross. And in October 2025, she was successful. The hearing was eventually scheduled by Judge Tyler Gill for three days over late November and December of the same year. Time was against them, but Miranda hoped they finally had enough grounds to warrant a retrial. Quincy met a perfect storm when this investigation

and trial happened. Now that he has his evidentiary hearing and all of this new evidence has been presented very thoroughly. I'm hoping that this is the perfect storm, the good perfect storm that comes at the end for him. It's November 24th, 2025. One day before the new hearing is due to begin. The big news is that the judge will focus on the recantations of four women who testified against Quincy in 2008, including the prosecution's two crucial eyewitnesses, Vinisha Stubblefield and Victoria Caldwell, both of whom confessed to being accomplices to the crime

and took reduced sentences in exchange for testified. against the others. Testimony that they have both admitted now was false. Our producer Alice sits down with Venetia, who's apprehensive about seeing the former KBI agents at the hearing. Faults to see them today. I would tell them the same thing they told me that I'm going to see to it that you write in prison by lethal injection like you did me and my mother. Then you sit there and made a threat saying that you'll see that we'll spend the rest of our life in prison and that we'll die in prison by lethal injection, I have no respect for you at all, period.

And that's what they did to me, and my mom and my family, they threatened us. Benicia remembers the 2007 Drury-in interviews like they were yesterday. The KBI, like, when they were doing my interview and stuff, it was like, they were talking to me and we were talking, but then, like, off-camera and off-record, they would sit here and coached me and then just saying, well, this is what you're going to say, And this is what you're going to say.

So wait a second. The KPI stopped and started this videotaped interview. That is a huge red flag. If what Venetia says is true, that would explain a lot. We already heard clips of those agents, practically telling the girls what to say on camera. I can only imagine what was said while it was turned off. Benicia is now driven by the need to write the injustice

and account for the harm she contributed to. starting with the currents. I'm sorry. For everything that is, any kind of harm that has came to y'all, I truly, deeply apologize for everything that has happened. And I hope that they can get some closure and they find the answers that they need.

But for the most part, I'm so, so sorry. For your loss. Venetia blames much of this on Susan's meddling. I'm glad she's dead. She got what she deserved. because look at all the harm that you've done to everybody else. Look at all the harm and dangerous things that you call to everybody and their families as well.

The other witness who had been called to testify is, of course, Victoria Caldwell. Now, one of the new pieces of evidence submitted for this hearing was a statement made to the Kentucky Innocence Project Lawyers in 2003, where Victoria recanted her original testimony. However, she's refused to put that recantation in a signed affidavit. Now, they understand that Victoria has been subject

to a lot of pressure by the prosecutors, but Quincy's defense is hoping now is finally the moment she'll recant under oath on the witness stand. Not surprisingly, Victoria was reluctant to speak with any media around the time of the hearing. Our producer, Alice,

had been trying to get an interview with her for months when... Now tap on Add Contact button and search for the contact you want to call and then tap on Merge button. A few weeks after the hearing, Victoria finally answered. Hello. I'm so glad that I'm speaking to you today. We've been communicating for a while, right? And I didn't know if you would ever speak to me. So I'm super grateful that you've decided to speak with me.

Victoria was a little nervous, but gradually opened up. Are you telling me the diary was fabricated? So you just, did they tell you what to write or? I really can't say. Okay. But all we can say is that the diary was fabricated. It definitely. The diary they're discussing was a piece of evidence produced in the 2008 trial that appeared to contain a written confession by Victoria implicating Quincy.

Jeff Burton, had you met him before? Never. And that's not all. What about Quincy? Have you met him? Never. You've never met Quincy Cross? No.

Okay. How did that story come about if you'd never met Quincy? I feel like Lee really had an accident. And I don't know why. On the phone call with Alice, Victoria also claimed she was threatened by then KBI agent Lee Wise to repeat the Quincy murder story. or faced death by lethal injection. She claimed the Quincy story was drilled into her and rehearsed before trial.

Now, after all these years, Victoria says she wants to see Quincy exonerated for the crime he didn't commit. This is a lot to wrap your head around. We also have to say that even in our own conversations with these women, new details and new accusations came up that we can't fact check or easily corroborate. Their stories have changed a lot over years of retelling. At the very least, and most importantly, in my opinion, these are not reliable witnesses, certainly not witnesses on which a conviction should rest.

Also, I have to say, they take some courage to come forward now. Legally, both these women could face charges for perjury if it's deemed that they lied on the stand in 2008. As far as I can see, they really have nothing to gain personally by speaking to us, unless they're just trying to clear their conscience. Then again, speaking to podcast producers, which is not under oath, and then repeating these claims on the witness stand, which is under oath, two very different things entirely.

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Visit Loreal.com to learn more. On November 25th, 2025, Quincy's new evidentiary hearing begins. In a blow to Quincy's defense, Judge Gill has decided not to allow the emails between Tom and Susan to be used as new evidence at this point. They would need authentication to be admissible, which, given that Susan is dead and Tom is in the UK, would take time. So the pressure is now on the witnesses to go on the record with their recantations.

The courtroom is packed. Media, locals, the current and cross families. Jessica's now grown-up son Zion attends with his wife. Susan's son Ray also decides to attend the hearing, in spite of knowing how his mom is perceived. He's quiet and contemplative. I mean, I'm supposed to do this. If she were alive, she wouldn't want me cooperating with anybody the way I am.

But I think where she's at now, I think she would want to rest in peace. And if there's any way that I can use the stuff that she has to bring peace to anybody, even her, that, you know, that's all worth it. Day one of the hearing gets off to a good start for Quincy, who is present. Sitting in his orange jumpsuit next to his defense team, he will remain silent, but he is watching carefully. A reminder to those on the stand that it's his life, his future, that's at stake. One of the minor witnesses, another Mayfield woman, was just a 12-year-old girl in 2000

and was a new mom at the age of 19 when she was compelled to testify against Quincy Cross. Testimony she now recants under oath. Next up is Vinisha ever confessed to you that she killed Jessica Turner? Next up is Venetia. More than just recanting, she comes out and accuses law enforcement of coercing her. And everything that I testified to was a lie. I was forced to say it.

I was certain to say it. So you testified, you actually testified false with that. Yes, because I was told to say the things that I said. Okay. I'll repeat that for you. Everything that I testified to was a lie. She repeats her allegation that KBI agents Lee Wise and Bob O'Neill told her what to say and threatened her and her family. If the judge finds this testimony reliable,

this is a huge moment for Quincy. As day one comes to a close, everyone's thoughts turn to tomorrow and whether Victoria Caldwell will do the same. It's day two of the hearing. The courtroom is settled and proceedings have begun. A door opens quietly and a late arrival hurries in. It's Victoria, accompanied by her husband. There are looks and whispers in the gallery. Many didn't think she'd turn up. And the dramatics aren't over. Victoria is called to the stand, but after answering a few basic questions, confirming who she is, she decides to exercise her Fifth Amendment rights to remain silent. People talking about just the current murder at the school.

Yeah, I'm actually right to be inside. And are you invoking your Fifth Amendment privilege, ma'am? Yes. Victoria has decided not to repeat her recantation on the stand at this time. The judge dismisses her. But as Victoria hurries out of the courtroom, Benicia leaps up and explodes in a rage. In the end, Benicia has to be held back from attacking her.

She had every right to sit there and tell the truth, but she did, and she still, and they let her go. I ain't got no respect to that the fire. It took everything in my power not to punch her. Because I really wanted to bid her ass in this court, but at the hitting her day. She ruined a lot of people's lives. I don't like it. It's a blow for Quincy, no doubt about that. The hearing resumes a couple of weeks later for a third and final day.

The defense attorney now turns her attention to the former KBI. agents accused of coercing the witnesses in order to produce the murder narrative against Quincy Cross, Lee Wise and Bob O'Neill. On the stand, former Agent Wise is clearly rattled and repeatedly loses his temper, shouting over Quincy's attorney. Eventually, the judge stands up and intervenes, as you heard at the beginning of this episode. Hey, go, go, go, just a second. I'm going to get your attention just a second. Later, the defense continues to question Lee Wise's interviewing technique. Are you familiar with the reed technique of the interrogation?

I don't use it, but I know you're off. I won't get into the weeds, but the reed technique is a controversial, highly confrontational method for eliciting confessions from suspects. It's also known to produce false confessions, especially especially in the case of vulnerable individuals. That's not really. What do you mean not really? What do you mean not really?

I said not really. All right, sir, I'm going to try really hard to ask you a question and to ask it directly, I want to ask you to listen to my question and respond to that so that we don't do this back and forth and talk about each other, okay? But the back and forth does go on. Former KBI agent Lee Wise denies everything. His former partner, Bob O'Neill, is calmer under questioning, but also doesn't give away much.

After three days, the evidence is completed. In total, four of the prosecution's original witnesses, women whose testimony helped secure Quincy's conviction, told the court that parts of what they said in 2008 were false, pressured, or shaped by investigators. testimony that supported a narrative, many now believe, was heavily influenced, if not authored by Susan Galbraith. But will it be enough for Judge Gill to set aside Quincy's conviction? Jeff Burton, the white guy Susan accused of disposing of Jessica's body, who served seven years for a crime he has always insisted he didn't commit, shares his point of view outside the courtroom.

I was excited for what has happened today and things are looking bright, but I am nervous as well. because I do know Commonwealth or Kentucky. Obviously, they don't ever want to admit that they've done wrong or messed up or whatever. For Ray, though, this has been a reckoning with who his mother was, with what she did, and with the part he now plays and shaping a new narrative. By stepping forward, by allowing Susan's story to be examined, Ray is part of something different, a chance to rewrite at least some small part of what went wrong in Mayfield,

something Jeff Burton and others are keen to thank him for. Can I introduce you someone? Yeah. This is Raymond Susan's son. Oh, okay, okay. It's a pleasure to meet you, man. I'm John Poole. How are you?

You turned over a lot of the stuff to the thing, man. That's beautiful, man. Thank you, man. Thank you for doing that. Yeah, really. Really greatly appreciate it, man. So hopefully we can get this thing busted open all the way. As Alice bids farewell to Ray,

she can see the emotion etched onto his face. After the guilt Ray has carried all these years, Jeff's words of thanks hit hard. It was nice to finally mean Jeff. You know, they've all these people been rent-free in my head for, you know, so long. Now it's good to, you know, interact with and see him face-to-face. To be told, thank you.

and, I mean, it's a big deal. By the time this episode airs, we'll likely know the outcome of the evidentiary hearing. Will Judge Gill discredit the recantations, leaving Quincy incarcerated for life? Or will he grant a retrial or even an exoneration? In a case that would now be extraordinarily difficult to prosecute with witnesses who have recanted in some form and little forensic evidence to support it. For 17 years, he's maintained his innocence. Years he'll never get back.

As his sister told us for Quincy, the stakes are not abstract. We long for his presence at the house. Everybody. My grandma went to her grave. That's all she talked about. When people come over, that's all she talked about. Look how he's done my little grandson. Look what they got done to my baby.

Look what they're done to Quincy. When we cross over the state line, it's like, Oh, my God. Well, what are we going to expect? It's scary. But whatever happens in court, whether or not Quincy gets a retrial, one fact will not change. Jessica Curran is still dead. And the seven-year investigation into her death that was warped by Susan Galbraith produced a narrative that placed her at the center right where Jessica should have been.

This podcast is in part a cautionary tale about what has. happens when the desire for a compelling story begins to eclipse the facts, when narrative overtakes humanity, when the people pulled in become characters, when storylines replace real lives. Nowhere is that more painfully felt than with the currents. For 25 years, Jessica's family has watched the story of her murder twist and mutate, reshaped by rumor, reinvention, interference and false hope. They have never received clarity, an apology, or justice. What's the truth?

That's what we're trying to find. That's what we don't know. Who killed Jessica Curran? Because honestly, today, we still don't know. At the time of release, we have not received a response from the Kentucky State Police, the Office of the Attorney General of Kentucky, former State Trooper Sam Steaker, or former KBI agent Lee Wise

regarding allegations reported in this episode. A legal representative for former KBI agent Bob O'Neill responded by email, saying he, quote, categorically denies the narrative and the specific allegations. Unlock all episodes of My Mother's Lies ad-free right now by subscribing to the Binge podcast channel. Not only will you immediately unlock all episodes of this show, but you'll get binge access to an entire network of over 60 true crime and investigative podcasts.

Shows like Doctors' Orders and Watching You All Ad Free. Plus, on the first of every month, subscribers get a binge drop of a brand new series. That's all episodes all at once. Search for The Binge on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page. Not on Apple? Then head to getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen. This is My Mother's Lies, an original production of Sony Music Entertainment and Message Heard, hosted by me, Beth Karras.

From Message Heard, Alice Arnold is our investigator producer, Robin Simon, our producer, McAllister Bexon, our series producer, Tiago Diaz, our assistant producer. Alan Lear is our supervising sound editor, supported by sound editors Lizzie Andrews and Ivan Easley, with original composition by Mike Mains. From Sony Music Entertainment, our executive producers are Catherine St. Louis and Jonathan Hirsch. From Blink Films, our executive producer is Justine Kershaw, and a big thanks to the whole Sony Music Entertainment team. Three decades ago, a young woman named Angie Dodge is found brutally murdered in Ivy. Idaho Falls. Police put a man behind bars. But as the years pass, doubts emerge about whether the real killer was ever caught. That's when Angie's own mother embarks on a decades-long

mission to uncover the truth. Listen to The Snare, a new series from ABC Audio. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.