The Binge Crimes: Lady Mafia - Devil in the Ditch I The Aftermath with Larrison Cambell

Episode Date: June 24, 2024

One year after the release of Witnessed: Devil in the Ditch, host Larrison Campbell travels back to Greenville, Mississippi to explore the aftermath of telling a personal, family story. Unlock all episodes of Witnessed: Devil in the Ditch, ad-free, right now by subscribing to The Binge. Plus, get binge access to brand new stories dropping on the first of every month — that’s all episodes, all at once, all ad-free. Just click ‘Subscribe’ on the top of the  Witnessed: Devil in the Ditch show page on Apple Podcasts or visit GetTheBinge.com to get access wherever you get your podcasts. Find out more about The Binge and other podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts and @campside_media Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Indra Varma, and in the latest season of The Spy Who, we open the file on Daphne Park, the spy who killed a prime minister. As the Belgian Congo gains its independence, Officer Park sets out to build a spy network. Together, they're about to go to new extremes to keep Congo free of communists. Follow The Spy Who now wherever you listen to podcasts. Campsite Media. The Bench.

Hey folks, today we're bringing you a special bonus episode of Witnessed, Devil in the Ditch. Afterwards, stay tuned for a sneak peek at a brand new series I'm hosting, Dr. Miracle. It's just these homilies. You don't even recognize the people. And then they say, would you like to say something? Would you like to say something? Are you out of your mind? People just don't get up in funerals and say things. That's right, y'all. We're back

in Greenville, Mississippi with a bonus episode of Witnessed, Devil in the Ditch. I'm here talking with old friend and arbiter of funeral etiquette, Gayden Metcalf. If you listen to the first eight episodes of this show, you'll remember she has some strong opinions on the do's and don'ts of funerals. Anyway, at Hank's funeral, it was a traditional, beautiful funeral with beautiful music, standing room only. There was no funky music.

They did have one guitar player, but, you know, nothing else. Gayden and I caught up about nine months after Devil in the Ditch was released. Since this podcast came out, there's a question I've been getting a lot. How does publicly telling a private story about your family and your friends in your hometown affect, well, your family and your friends in your hometown? Gayden seemed like the obvious place to start, since there isn't a whisper in Greenville that she doesn't hear. I don't know if I told you this on the email that I sent you, but, Gayden, you were a fan favorite. Oh, get out of here. I'm serious.

Like, did you, I mean, what did you hear in Greenville? Did anybody, you know, reach out to you about hearing you in it? Oh, absolutely. In fact, I told your father, I said, I have just come back from the UK where some fella sent Gayden a text. That's her daughter, little Gayden. And asked if she would take my picture on the phone and send it to his wife who was sick. And she was listening to the podcast. She said it would just literally make her day. And I went, like, a picture of me? He said, yeah. I thought, oh, I felt like a star. I thought, oh, my heavens. By the way, she sent it. So what are people saying then? I mean, because I do think that

there was probably a pretty common theory in Greenville as to what happened to my grandmother. Do you think this changed anybody's mind about that? Or do you think it actually- No, no, no, no, no, no. You know people in Greenville don't change their minds very often. And they were all convinced that, you know, who was the culprit. This is a special bonus episode of Witnessed, season four, Devil in the Ditch, The Conversations. I'm Larison Campbell. From the award-winning creators of the hit podcast Father Wants Us Dead comes the stunning new true crime series In the Shadow of Princeton. In 1989, a prominent woman was found stabbed to death in

her Princeton home. With no clear motive, it's a chilling mystery that vexed investigators for years. Was the culprit a young outsider the police said was a serial attacker? Or someone in her family? Or even well-heeled students at the renowned Princeton University. He had a ski mask in his possession and a knife. She was familiar enough with them and trusted them enough that she turned her back on, and that was her mistake. One investigator sees a conspiracy. Is he way off base, or does privilege help you get away with murder? In the Shadow of Princeton is available wherever you get your podcasts,

or you can binge it ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankopan. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we are looking at the life of the British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill. It's fair to say he's a complex and controversial character. Almost 150 years since his birth, how does his legacy hold up today? Follow Legacy now wherever you get your podcasts. Or binge entire seasons early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. At first, I was kind of surprised to hear that this podcast hadn't opened the minds of Greenville at large

when it comes to my grandmother's murder. But if there's one thing Greenville has always done, it's stay on the side of a good story. And a family fight about a wedding brunch so dramatic that it allegedly leads to murder? Well, that was a good one. My friends from Chicago who listened to it, they have only been to Greenville, Mississippi to visit, and I drove he and his wife by the house. I have taken several tours. Was that since the podcast? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But do you know that since your podcast,

I say that I have seen Richard three times? Now, some of that possibly has to do with Charlotte's death. A reminder, Richard is a pseudonym I gave my cousin, the guy who lots of people in Greenville and my own family have accused of having something to do with Precious' murder. Although there is no evidence to support that. And Charlotte is the pseudonym I gave his mother, who was Precious' sister. She died a year and a half ago while we were making this podcast. How often did you see Richard before this? Are you seeing him less now? Oh, absolutely. Far, far less. Far, far less. You know, I would see Richard driving Charlotte no more. I don't see him in his car ever. Had Richard been hiding out, avoiding the scrutiny?

I get a knot in my stomach at the thought. I tried hard to be fair to everyone, but especially Richard. Well, I think you were extremely fair. I mean, I think you went overboard in the fair department. I think if anyone, any comment that I heard was like, I think they wanted you to say he did it. We know he did it. And, but the charges were not pressed. I can't say that. I think for sure that he did it. I like there's, there's zero evidence that he did it. Like there's no actual evidence that he was there.

And so, you know... Who else would have done it with the little evidence that you have? Somebody blew in off the street. Just blew in off the street. Blew in off the street, absolutely. Hit your grandmother on the head and covered her face. You know, at least online. One of the common theories is that it was Charlotte, actually, who did it.

I mean, is that something that has trickled into the, you know— No. Into the Greenville water? No, not at all. Not at all. I mean, I just don't think that they could conceive that a member of the Garden Club of America would do that. Maybe Greenville people can't conceive of it. But in the months since the podcast came out, from people outside of Greenville,

that may be the theory I hear the most. Gayden, too. She tells me that's what the friend who'd asked her to drive him around town thought. Yeah, he thought that of course Charlotte did it. Who else would have done it? Were there any other parts of the story that you had thoughts about, that you wanted to talk about more? Anything, you know, that you heard in the podcast or that you didn't hear in the podcast?

I was completely satisfied. I'm just waiting for you to come forth with what you think now, how you have progressed since the podcast. What have your feelings been? What have your emotions been like? I mean, truthfully, I wish I felt like, I mean, the reason I didn't have more of a resolution in the podcast is because I didn't feel any sense of resolution. I think I went into this thinking, okay, there has to be a smoking gun somewhere. There has to be something that gets me at least, like,

a little beyond what the investigation turned up. And then, I don't know. Honestly, I thought you were being careful and you, whether you like it or not, that you were going back to your roots and to your DNA and you were not going to be the pool bird that fouls its own nest. That whether you liked it or not, that came out, that you're a nice girl from a nice family and you are not going to be the bad bird. How does your aunt, Anne, how has she taken it? We haven't talked a lot since it came out. What does possible sound like for your business? It's having the spend that powers your scale with since it came out. lounges worldwide. Redefine possible with Business Platinum.

That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms and conditions apply. Visit amex.ca slash business platinum. McDonald's is better when it's shared with friends. That's why the Bestie Bundle is made to share, including two junior chickens, two small fries, two small fountain drinks, but best of all, two limited edition friendship bracelets, and all for $13 plus tax.

Order the bestie bundle ahead in the McDonald's app. Limited time, while supplies last. At participating Canadian restaurants. Excludes delivery. Truth is, whether or not people in Greenville thought this podcast was anything to be upset over, I'd been worried it was. I got a lot of messages after it came out. But in the flurry of communication, there were conspicuous absences. I heard from my dad, of course.

And right after the podcast came out, both of his sisters, who were in several episodes, sent me congratulatory emails. But if they had thoughts on what was in several episodes, sent me congratulatory emails. But if they had thoughts on what was in the podcast, they kept that to themselves. And as for Richard, I was no more clued in on what he thought. Then in October, I was invited to the Delta Hot Tamale Festival to do a panel discussion about Devil in the Ditch. This is, to put it mildly, a longtime dream come true. There is no bigger event in Greenville, Mississippi than the annual Hot Tamale Festival. Because there is no bigger food in Greenville, Mississippi than the hot tamale.

And what, you may ask, is a hot tamale? Well, it's like a Mexican tamale, but smaller, thinner, and hotter. For a size comparison, think Cuban cigar. Then it gets rolled up in a corn husk and simmered in this spicy gravy. Being asked to be part of the Hot Tamale Festival is pretty damn thrilling. All of downtown Greenville becomes something of a party for a weekend.

There's music and half a dozen city blocks of vendors. And like all good festivals, this one has a king and a queen. I was about two Bloody Marys and half a dozen tamales into the event when I ran into this year's queen. You look so good. I love your outfit. Can I take this from you guys? Yes. She was wearing this head-to-toe chambray outfit with a corn husk ruffled trim and then a crown with a ceramic diorama of the hospital where she worked that was then surrounded by giant hot tamales.

I was impressed. And then she said she listened to the show. Come out of the hospital. I get in the car and listen to your podcast and just relax. It was okay. I was sad when it was over because I had nothing else to listen to. Thank you so much. That was so cool. And I ran into lots of people who wanted to talk about the case. Can she hear the doorbell if somebody was at the front? Yeah, she could. If she was in the backyard, she could hear it?

Oh, no, no, no, no. She wouldn't be able to hear it. I gave that talk about the podcast at the old Levee Board building turned boutique hotel. It was a full crowd, although, to be fair, the audience for my talk was probably two-thirds my family, friends, and then family of my friends. At one point, I asked who had known my grandmother, Presh. Nearly every hand went up. They had questions for me. How I'd gone about approaching my family.

If there had been any breaks in the case. And who I'd spoken to since it had come out. I was just curious, have you heard from Richard since the podcast aired? That's the other reason this trip was significant. I only have one family member left in Greenville. Richard. And I hadn't heard a word from him since the podcast came out. I didn't even know if he'd listened.

I had wondered if he would show up to hear me speak. After all, no one loves a Greenville Civic event more than Richard. But I didn't see him there. So I called him up. He met me in the courtyard of my hotel. He wore his usual sneakers, old gray sweatpants, and an emerald-colored Greenville T-shirt. When I complimented him on it,

he reminded me that he'd given me an identical one back when I'd first interviewed him. I still had it in my drawer, though I've never even tried it on. Just the thought feels too heavy. But Richard grinned when he saw me, and I gave him a hug. As we sat down, I introduced him to my girlfriend, who was there helping me record. We sat on the hotel's outdoor couches and caught up. Unlike the last time I saw him, he was really relaxed that day. He said he was fine with my recording our conversation.

But the day was really windy, and I'm not great at tech, so we ended up not being able to use a lot of the audio anyway. I did ask him if he'd listen to the show, but he told me he hadn't wanted to pay for it. So I said it was free. I even volunteered to burn him a CD. And then he said, well, he actually just didn't really want to hear it. I have to ask, like, are you, are you okay with the fact that I did this, that I did the podcast? Yeah, I told you early on. I told you initially. And a lot of the interview sounds like this.

I told you it was really windy. What I really wanted to know, though, was how had this project affected him? Has anyone treated, do you think people have treated you any differently since it came out? Yeah. Not at all. And people haven't brought up pressure or anything. No, not at all. That's interesting. That's good. I-uh. Not at all. And people haven't brought up press or anything. No. Uh-uh.

That's interesting. That's good. I'm glad. I'm really glad. Yeah. And of course, you've got to remember everybody from here, they were part of that experience 20 years ago. After the first few months when it occurred,

I never heard any conversation about it ever again. Yeah, I think you did say that. I mean, because there was no new information. Something about the conversation that day opened up a line of communication between us. Richard started texting me YouTube videos

of Greenville, of course, like old footage of the levee, another of the official Hot Tamale Festival song, and I started texting him back. I called to wish him a happy Thanksgiving, and at Christmas, he sent me pictures of the Presbyterian Church, decorated with wreaths. A few weeks after I got back home, Richard agreed to another conversation about his experience with the podcast. I asked him to think back to the first time I interviewed him and Charlotte about the murder. We, no doubt, we tried to actually bring you to that particular time. You did. To describe to you

what was going on in Greenville, Mississippi back then. I mean, do you think about all this stuff much now? No. Yeah. No, and sadly, Larissa, when I looked at you

seated in the courtyard that day, I said, I said, I said, that's one problem I've got when I speak with you, that the conversation is always going to come to this particular subject. Now, I think I told you, don't live in obsession over this, where the only time I ever think about that day way back in 2003

is whenever anybody brings up the topic to me and you're the only person who ever brings up the topic to me. He says only a couple of people have brought up the podcast to him. One of his friends who lives out of state and an old family friend. He said,

one of your relatives has done a podcast about your aunt's murder. And I said, I know. And that's all that he said about it. And then Nancy Brown called me one day and she said, have you heard Larrison's work? What'd you tell me, though? Well, I mean... You had caught some heat from some people.

When somebody comes to you, you shouldn't have included your family in it. Yeah, I mean, I think that was, I mean, for me, like, going into this was that by bringing this up, it would negatively affect your life by, you know, sort of talking about this again. No, it hasn't done that at all because it has not been a topic where I live.

It never posed a problem to me as a citizen of Greenville. Why? Because the people of Greenville knew me. So I think that's the way they actually responded. You know, so much of the, you could say, the attention that was put on you came from someone in our family bring this up and then, you know, conclude that any evidence, as it were, didn't exist? Harrison, I'm a forgiving soul. I don't understand why your father and why your Aunt Anne. He talks about my dad and his sisters

accusing him of killing Presh. If it hadn't have been you, I wouldn't have gotten interested in a podcast. And again, you know, how many times have I told you? I did it because it was you. I did it because you were not here at the time. It was clear that you hadn't gotten all this information. I wanted you to have it.

I wanted you to have the full picture. And then I take it Mama did a hell of a good job talking with you, too, about what was going on back then. And I'm sorry that well, what information the Greenville Police Department had, who it was their job to solve the crime that they weren't open with you. What do you like to do these days? Well, I miss my family and I miss my friends, which includes all the people who grew up here. I hear I sit back in this study and every night when I go over to turn off my space heater, I see all these pictures of all these wonderful people.

My grandparents, his parents, all of us cousins. As I look off into the distance now, I'm looking at that picture of you in your tan overalls. You've got on a red sweater. Oh, the school picture, yeah. We chatted about people we knew in common and Richard's second favorite subject next to Greenville, the Libertarian Party. Though he told me Robert Kennedy would have his vote in 24.

This, it's really, it's really, really nice getting to chat with you for this, like, long amount of time. Thank you. I I thoroughly enjoyed it. Though I can't say talking about that negative time, I enjoyed that. Well, let's think about TV shows then. Keep sending me TV shows. Between 1979 and 1989, a dozen people from Dallas, Texas died mysteriously. Why do you think it was so difficult to tie Terry to these deaths? Because there's no smoking gun.

From Sony Music Entertainment, this is Scary Terry. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. I was most nervous to get my dad's opinion on the podcast. I was worried I'd put him in an awkward position. He's always been so supportive of anything I've created. But I was concerned that this time, that might be hard for him. One of the things you said to me when we spoke last year was that I would be criticized for for doing this. Has anybody sort of expressed, I think in the more sort of Southern way of criticizing, expressed concern about my decision to report on the family? Not a single person has said that. Now, have people thought it but not had the nerve to express it, even in an indirect Southern way? You know, that's possible. I think people have been surprised that you were given, first of all, were given permission by me and my sisters to do this.

And then I think people have been surprised that you did it and went through with it. What I do remember striking me the most, and this was personal to me, and it was your description of when I called you to tell you about Precious' death and how you just burst into tears. Here's the clip he's talking about. I'm thinking, look, Larrison, I know this is upsetting, but it's upsetting to me too, and I want you to get in control of yourself. You had to start making some decisions about coming to Greenville. I wasn't sure if you were going to be emotionally able to do what it took to make those arrangements. I basically said, look, you need to pull yourself together, and we've just got to deal with this. And what I remember about that, and as you said, I was driving, and I remember where I was on the highway when I got you to be the first person, but that after you, I then needed to call Martha,

and I needed to call Liz, and then I needed to call my sister Ann, and I needed to call my sister Martha. And I just, I wasn't looking forward to any of that. And I just wanted to get it over with. And I think that's why, unfortunately, I think I was anything but sensitive to your needs. And I just, even today, I just feel terrible about that. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry you feel terrible. I don't want you to. I mean, it was just, to me, one of the things that I think I really came to an understanding of when I was doing that was how much you were having to hold together in that moment. And my interpretation, which could be wrong, is sort of like, look, I'm her son, and I'm the one who's holding it together. I'm able to make these phone calls. Like, we've all got to hold it together. Well, that is very kind and really

indulgent of you. But I think the fact is that she was dear to all of us, and I just should have been more sympathetic. But, you know, looking back on it, I really am surprised that I was not more emotional about the event. I worry that I've not let myself get emotional. What do you think about the theory that has really gained a lot of traction since the podcast came out that Charlotte did it? I'm not inclined to think that Charlotte did it. And I doubt that it was murder in the sense that it was premeditated. You know, my suspicion is that it came about more insidiously than that. That is, there was a confrontation of some sort. This doesn't surprise me. Almost to a one, people who knew Charlotte have trouble imagining that

she actually killed her sister, Presh. Now, I said almost to a one because there is always an exception. In this case, my mother. After she'd heard Charlotte's interview in the podcast, she told me she couldn't shake the idea that Charlotte was the one with real motive. That Charlotte, even more than Richard, resented Presh, wanted her to back off once and for all. I got messages and calls about this too. People reached out to see if Charlotte had ever been considered a suspect. The police never looked at her that way from what I was told, but maybe it's worth asking if they should have. I have trouble picturing Charlotte being that violent. But when I interviewed Charlotte,

she talked a lot about the resentment she felt for her older sister. And I was struck by how open she was about it. I wanted to ask my aunts, my dad's sisters, what they thought about this theory. Remember, they both accused Richard of killing Presh and Charlotte of covering for him, although there is no evidence that's true. But I didn't know if they'd ever considered whether Charlotte had been involved without Richard.

And we hadn't talked much since the podcast came out. One of the things that I'm kind of stuck on is, you know, you have two sisters and they are very different. And one of them, I think I could have done anything with the podcast and she wouldn't have been supportive. I think that's true. I know she wrote me immediately and told me how proud she was,

and I'm pretty sure she listened to it. Do you know at all if Anne ever finished it? I think she started and said it was too much. I don't know. She's never told me. She's never said she listened to it. So you don't really know what her overall feelings about the content are then? I don't. I expect that there is much in the podcast that she would not have approved of, that she would not have felt good about. And I completely understand her position on that and respect it. In some ways, there's no one in the family whose take on Presha's murder is more different from mine than my Aunt Anne's.

When it comes to what happened, she's black and white. She believes it was Richard. And I've sort of accepted that I'm going to spend the rest of my life in a gray area. But in other ways, she and I are so similar. She's the only other person who wasn't afraid to dive into everything she could get her hands on about Precious Murder. The only other person who can't quite let it go. And knowing how much she cares scares me.

Here's an excerpt of my Aunt Anne in the podcast. Of all of Precious' kids, my Aunt Anne pursued Richard the longest. She's the one who collected all the investigative documents she could. Those binders I now have. But it wasn't just collecting. It's taking notes, doing her own analyses. Like, she wrote up details about Richard. What I considered a profile, and I sent it to this psychiatrist in Houston,

and I asked him to give me a profile. What was he really like? What could he do or would do? And it's excellent what he wrote. Have you read that yet? I haven't really yet. I went through the garbage at their house, and I wanted to sample one thing of his handwriting, which I do have. You got that?

Okay, good. And then I just thought, you know, either what Anne's response is or what I'm perceiving her response to be. It's the one area that I don't feel okay about. And it's interesting, you know, like I said, I sat down with, you know, our mutual cousin, who's a very big part of the podcast, yesterday. And he seems to be okay with it. But the greatest extent of communication I've had with Anne since then was that I had all of her files in my possession and she really, really, really wanted to get them back. Yeah. And I did.

I got them back to her and I got them back in good condition and stuff. But I, and I just, I think I'm so worried that she came away from that podcast feeling like she couldn't trust me and wanted to have her things back from me. That's my interpretation. does not have a positive reaction to the content, I can understand that it's because she did expend a lot of time and energy and money investigating and trying to get to the bottom to what she thought was the clear answer to who did it.

I really didn't know how my aunts felt. After I talked to my dad, I couldn't get that out of my head. And maybe I'd been avoiding asking them because, like my dad, I suspected they hadn't loved how I'd told their story, how I hadn't been able to say Richard was guilty. Still, they were both so enthusiastic about this podcast when I'd started. Anne had me to her house in Tennessee, and my Aunt Martha drove down and joined us.

We'd made a whole weekend of it, lots of laughing, great stories. I'd left Anne's house on a high, so grateful to be a part of this warm, vibrant group of people, and a presh for teaching us how to grab these moments. So I reached out to both of them and asked if I could interview them again and see how they felt. And they both said no. My Aunt Martha did talk with me on the phone, off the record. On the record, she told me that she'd gotten to a place where it felt more important to focus on Prash's amazing life,

and revisiting this podcast, which was about her unsolved murder, seemed like a step back. I didn't hear from Ann for a few days. She was the one I was most worried about. But then I got a text from her. It was really kind. Like my Aunt Martha, she said she just couldn't go back again to the podcast, that she had to move on from that time. And for a while, I felt good. Maybe I had managed to do the thing we Southerners are never supposed to do.

I'd opened the doors of my family home. I'd invited people to come take a look. Hell, I'd even narrated the tour. And it turned out to be okay. But if I'm being honest, that feeling of peace didn't stick around that long. I decided to tell the story of Prash's murder as a granddaughter, yes,

but also as a journalist, meaning people would be talking to me because I'm one of them. But as a journalist, I wouldn't be under any obligation to pick sides or loyalties. Or maybe that's wishful thinking. When you've always been part of a group, objectivity, openness, well, maybe it feels like that's the betrayal.

I guess that's another question I'll have to learn to live with. Because there's something else that Gaydon, the local etiquette doyen, said to me during our last conversation that really stuck with me. You know, that's an interesting part of the Delta. Everything is always so nice. You know, everyone, you can go to a dinner party and the food is horrible. The company's not good. And you at the door, you're just, you had the best time. Thank you so much. And basically, you know, in our heart of hearts, we're not that nice. Thanks for tuning in, everyone. Before you go, I want to share something super exciting.

If you loved Devil in the Ditch, then you'll want to hear my new podcast, Dr. Miracle. I'll dive into the incredible and horrifying true story of Dr. Robert Young and his pH miracle cure. Young rose to stardom during the wellness boom of the early 2000s. He promised sick patients a miracle cure, and they paid thousands to stay at his wellness center in Southern California. But then, his patients started dying. Dr. Miracle is a gripping and complex investigation driven by personal stories from the people whose lives were affected the most. It's an up-close look at the darker side of the wellness industry and at the dangers of a world where people believe more in miracles than they do in science. Trust me, you won't want to miss it. If you're subscribed to The Binge, great news.

You'll get all episodes all at once, completely ad-free, starting July 1st. Here's a sneak peek. Let me take you back to a time before Gwyneth Paltrow hawked bone broth and jade eggs. Back to the mid-2000s, when exercise classes were on DVD, when people followed the Atkins diet or the South Beach diet to lose weight. And there was another one that was really big back then, a miracle diet that would not only slim your waist, but make your body reject diseases. Back to the garden, back to the greens, back to God's butter, avocado. It was called the alkaline diet, and tons of celebrities toyed with it.

Kate Hudson, Victoria Beckham, Kelly Ripa, even the Queen of Goop, Gwyneth herself. It involved drinking lots of green juice and not very much else. I dropped weight like crazy, but I wasn't dropping weight where I look haggard like people do when they're on a diet. The alkaline lifestyle was pioneered by Dr. Robert Young. Breakfast should start out with a fresh juice. But Robert Young didn't just promise weight loss. He promised hope.

He promised a miracle cure. Sick people, especially cancer patients desperate for that hope, flocked to Dr. Young. He called it the new biology. He had a way of making you feel special and like you were on this great crusade. He just convinced her, stay the course, follow my protocol. It works. I've cured cancer. Like she was desperate. She wanted to feel better. Robert Young's followers called themselves Alcalarians.

I just felt like a father feeling towards him and Jesus Christ. That's pretty powerful. They followed his protocol even when it made them feel sicker. Her stomach was so distended, and I begged and pleaded with her to stop doing what she was doing. And when patients' illnesses got worse, Robert Young convinced them they were actually getting better. She had a lump on her chest.

It was the size of a golf ball, and it was coming out. Kind of like supporting what he was saying, that it can't live in her chest. It was the size of a golf ball and it was coming out, kind of like supporting what he was saying, that it can't live in her body. Dr. Miracle isn't just about a diet. It's about what happens when you follow the wrong guru. It's about how we choose to treat our illnesses at a time when health care is unaffordable and so many people doubt science. And it's about the search for truth when everything goes horribly awry. A good con man is an abrasive.

He's a likable guy. He's telling them what they want to hear. And he's saying it with conviction. There are losers. There are people that owe us money. My mom's sucking on that bottle of greens and I took it and I fucking threw it at that woman and then I said, here's your check, give me my mother.

Everyone's dying. Why is everyone dying? From Campside Media, Dorothy Street Pictures, and Sony Music Entertainment, this is Dr. Miracle. Coming July 1st, wherever you get your podcasts. Witnessed, Devil in the Ditch, is a production of Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment. This episode was hosted and reported by me, Larison Campbell.

Lindsay Kilbride is the senior producer. Studio recording by Ewan Lai-Tremuin and Blake Rook. Sound design, mixing, and original music by Garrett Tiedemann. Additional music by APM and Blue Dot Sessions. Fact-checking by Lane Gerbig. Special thanks to our operations team. Doug Slaywin, Destiny Dingle, Ashley Warren, and Sabina Mara. The executive producers at Campside Media are Vanessa Gregoriatis, Adam Hoff, Matt Scher, and Josh Dean. Thanks for listening.