The Binge Crimes: Lady Mafia - Friendly Fire | 4. Marty's Side

Episode Date: June 27, 2022

Marty tells his version of events leading to what officials have deemed a tragic accident. However, some key details don’t add up. The former prosecutor and TBI supervisor confront the inconsistencies and say the investigation was thorough.  Does Lori have this all wrong? Do we? A Campside Media & Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

One day, years ago, I was walking through the woods in East Tennessee, and I saw a bear. What that means, neurologically, is that my eyes collected data that one part of my brain processed into an image that other parts of my brain recognized as a bear. At that point, a primitive part of my brain called the amygdala got involved. It's like a threat detector. It controls the fight-or-flight response, and it's there to keep us from getting eaten by bears, or otherwise killed. This particular bear was some distance away minding its own business, so my brain gave me a drop of adrenaline, just enough to make me a little more alert and aware, and then I walked the other way. But what if I'd surprised that bear?

What if it had been startled and angry and charging at me? I would be terrified. Anyone would. A charging bear is an immediate lethal threat. It's fight or flight, live or die. Your brain is going to take that information, all the data that says a bear is coming to kill you, and route it to your

amygdala. Then your amygdala, your primitive lizard brain, is going to take over. It'll tell your glands to release gushers of adrenaline and cortisol. Your airways will expand so more oxygen can get into your blood, and your heart will beat harder and faster to get that oxygen-rich blood to the muscles you'll need to run away or stand and fight. Your pupils will dilate so they can take in more light, gather more information about the threat. But you'll also have tunnel vision. Your brain will focus so intently on the bear in front of you that you won't notice there's an even bigger bear behind you. Your mouth will go dry because bodily functions you don't need to survive

right then, like saliva production, will slow down or even stop for a bit. And if all that isn't enough, there's one more thing that happens. Your amygdala, when it's overloaded like this, it shuts down your frontal cortex, the thinking part of your brain. Your amygdala doesn't want you to think because thinking takes time. It's trying to keep you alive, which means that for those seconds you're just a sack of stress hormones and reflexes. And your amygdala is going to keep you in that state until that immediate life-or-death threat, that bear or that man in the bedroom with a shotgun, is terminated. From Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment,

this is Season 2 of Witnessed, Friendly Fire, Episode 4. I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankopan. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we are looking at the life of the British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill. It's fair to say he's a complex and controversial character. Almost 150 years since his birth, how does his legacy hold up today? Follow Legacy Now wherever you get your podcasts. Or binge entire seasons early and ad-free on Wondery Plus.

Marty Carson isn't alive. He died of natural causes in the spring of 2021, so we can't ask him about any of this. But we have a lot of interview tape from him. As with Nicky, we have his written statement from the night of the shooting, an interview at the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, and an interview from a couple of years after that. Okay, Mr. Carson, we're on the record. You were sworn yesterday, is that correct?

Yes. You understand you're under oath today? Yes. That's from the later interview. The rougher one you'll hear is from his TBI interview a few months after he shot John John. They called me at home and said, hey, this is, you got something going on? In both interviews, he wears his uniform, khaki on top with dark pants, a baseball cap,

and he always has this thick mustache that stops at the corners of his mouth. Marty said he and John John got along fine. They each had their own way of doing things, but they worked well together, complimented each other. John John, for instance, could be better at talking his way into a house they wanted to search. Sometimes he was better doing knock and talks than I was. The night John John was killed, Marty did the knocking. Here's how he told the story, the whole thing, of how he ended up shooting his partner. On Thanksgiving, which was the night before John John died, they were already trying

to track down this guy who was supposedly on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list. Marty said the tip was from an informant and that the fugitive was at a meth lab on Williams Creek Road. They only knew that his first name was Mark. On Thanksgiving night, Marty and John John, in separate cars, staked out the main road, watching for a yellow truck this Mark guy was supposed to be driving. That's what the informant told them, that he was bringing ingredients to make meth. They never saw a yellow truck. Later that evening, Marty drove the length of Williams Creek Road in case the yellow truck had slipped by them. He didn't see it. Lori remembers John John came home and told her about it. I do remember asking him that and he said no, that they did not find

anything. I didn't know really where they had been. According to Marty, John John took lead on the investigation. The informant, Marty said, was John John's, a man named Anthony. Lori doesn't believe that. She says Marty had been calling the house, saying he had information on this most wanted guy. But the call logs in the TBI file, they show John John and the informant calling each other, and John John calling Marty on Thanksgiving. Marty also called the informant, which is what he told the TBI. John wanted me to call him to see if he told me the same story about this Mark guy.

And I did. Either way, the next night, about 7 o'clock, Marty and John John meet up with two other officers, Sergeant Donnie Phillips and Deputy Carl Newport, to make a plan. They drive to the Scott County Food Court. It's a little plaza with a convenience store and Arby's and a Long John Silver's. Marty grabs a coffee. John stayed out in the Jeep and talked to Donnie. They pulled up a print out of Mark New. Donnie told investigators that he searched the name Mark because that's all they had to go on. The results are for all the Marks ever arrested in the county. And this guy Mark New comes up on Williams Creek Road. But Marty said he was ruled

out immediately. We determined from the description, the informant had gagged John that this was not the guy we was looking for. Height was different, weight was different, higher length was different. Just to reiterate, the man all those cops were looking for the night of the shooting is ruled out before Marty and John John ever got to the mobile home. So Marty and the others don't have a last name for this Mark fella. But they're thinking he's at Ryan Clark's place based on the informant's information. Marty said he actually didn't want to go that night. He was getting late. I told him I preferred to wait till the next day because we'd be tied up all night.

He said John John was the one pushing to go. He said, no, we would be eligible for overtime. We can use the money. So I said, well, whatever you want to do. So they go. I pulled in front of the window of the trailer at the end. John got out and started to the back of the trailer, where he met Ryan Clark in the yard. A few seconds later, Donnie and Carl pull up. The time is right around eight o'clock. I told them to take my position. Donnie went and stood at the end of the mobile home to cover the bedroom windows to make sure no one comes leaping out. Carl went out front to keep an eye on the door. And Marty approached John John and Ryan outside.

I asked him if there was anyone else in the trailer, and he stated no. Marty knocked on the back door anyway, and that's when Nikki answered. She opened the door. It was cold, snowing. I asked her if I could step inside. At first she was hesitant, but she did tell me I could come on in. I shut the door behind me. She sat down in the floor beside the door. He asked about her kids.

She said they're with her mom. And then Marty started looking around. And he noticed his coffee filters, a jug of purified water, and a big soda bottle. All pretty normal things to have in a kitchen, but also useful for manufacturing methamphetamine. The back bedroom was to his right. Its door was closed. Marty asked if there was anyone else inside. Nikki said no.

But she kept looking at the bedroom door, and just like Nikki said, Marty could see shadows moving through gaps around the door. He said it's because his Jeep's headlights were shining through the bedroom window, sort of backlighting everything. Then he nudged Nikki toward the kitchen and told her to stay there. I start hollering for the suspect to come out. Sheriff's department, come out. Sheriff's department, come out with your hands up. At this point in time, the female, that I didn't know who she was,

started screaming. That's Penny in the bedroom. He's got a gun. He's got a gun. He's going to kill you. He's going to kill me. He said he then thinks he hears a shotgun being loaded. To the other three officers. Marty starts walking down the tiny hallway toward the bedroom door. From my headlights, I could see a shadow, what looked to be a human person, holding a weapon pointed toward the doorway.

He ducks into the bathroom on his left. It was dark in there. I was trying to feel around, find something to get behind. He thinks he sees the barrel of a shotgun easing into the doorway of the bathroom. I felt I was being overtaken by the suspect. I felt he was fixing to come around through there and blow me, climb back through the bathroom. That's I was being overtaken by the suspect. I felt he was fixing to come around through there and blow me plumb back through the bathroom. That's what I felt.

Penny was still screaming. It was noisy, chaotic. I was terrified, scared for my life. I seen what I believed to be a barrel of a gun coming down the doorway, and that's when I fired my weapon. Two, three seconds later, I hear John holler, I've been shot, please help.

Marty walked out of the bathroom. He said he saw John John's eyes roll back in his head. Marty put his gun back in his holster and tried to drag John John out of the trailer, but he later said he was too heavy. I fled the residence to get some assistance. Marty said he believed John John was already dead. He ran outside, took cover behind a tree,

and yelled for Donnie to call an ambulance and get him his shotgun. But I was going back in to get John. More officers started to arrive. Did you hear Nicole screaming from the trailer shotgun. More officers started to arrive. He remembered Nikki screaming, but not what the words were. At some point, Penny and Mark managed to run out the back door. Somehow, none of the three officers outside, fearing for their lives, managed to see them. Marty says it was too dark. He could hear rustling and twigs breaking in the woods,

but they didn't even know these possible cop killers were gone until Marty and the first backup officer on scene went in to secure the place. They did CPR on John John until the ambulance got there. It didn't matter It was already too late From the award-winning creators of the hit podcast Father Wants Us Dead comes the stunning new true crime series In the Shadow of Princeton. In 1989, a prominent woman was found stabbed to death in her Princeton home. With no clear motive, it's a chilling mystery that vexed investigators for years.

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Or does privilege help you get away with murder? In the Shadow of Princeton is available wherever you get your podcasts. Or you can binge it ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. I'm Indra Varma, and in the latest season of The Spy Who, we open the file on Daphne Park, the spy who killed a prime minister. As the Belgian Congo gains its independence, Officer Park sets out to build a spy network. Together, they're about to go to new extremes to keep Congo free of communists. Follow The Spy Who now wherever you listen to podcasts. In this story, there are several areas where memories differ,

or where what people claim are their memories differ. We need to talk about those things. One is the lighting, which matters a lot, because Marty said it was really dark, pitch black in that bathroom, and all he could see was the silhouette of a gun barrel when he fired the shot that killed John John. Nikki, on the other hand, says the place was pretty well lit. The porch light was on and the door was open.

The bathroom light was on. That's right next to the bedroom, less than eight feet from where she was standing. The kitchen light wasn't on, but the stove light was. So you could see the whole hallway. When Marty later talks to TBI, he's not sure what lights were on. I don't remember if the highlight was on or not. I believe the light off the kitchen was shining back pretty much. There was some light off the kitchen was shining back through my door.

There was some light in the hallway. Some light in the hallway. But he also said... I see it was pitch dark and I was scared. Crapless. Pitch dark. Scared crapless. That's what Marty's saying. The first officer to arrive on scene, the one who helped Marty do CPR, he says the hall light was on. Of course, there was a period of time when Nikki was in there alone with John John.

She could have turned it on while he was dying. But after John John is shot, Marty describes seeing his eyes roll back in his head, which would require some light to see. But even if there was light in that tiny hallway, in interviews, Marty swore it was pitch dark in the bathroom where he was standing. Another thing we need to talk about is the direction Marty fired his gun. In his version, he was standing in the bathroom looking out the door. The bedroom, where he thought he saw a man with a shotgun, was to his left. But his bullet hit John John, who was to his right, in the hallway,

with apparently some light. This seems to be a sticking point for the TBI. You didn't know John John was in the truck? Never heard him come in. He has Marty get up, go over to a whiteboard on an easel, and draw it out. The bathroom, the bedroom on the left, John John to the right. The threat that you see is coming from here, from the shotgun barrel. You fire this way, away from the threat, and you see what I'm saying? What he's saying is that Marty fired in the wrong direction, away from the threat.

Not that he missed, but that his gun was pointed away from what he thought was going to kill him. And then the TBI agent asks, How can we clarify that? I was scared. No, you're not scared. I have no? I was scared. No, you were scared. I have no doubt you were scared. I know you were scared and we were terrified. He says he would have been scared too. And then he sort of tries to help Marty figure it out.

Is it possible that when you saw that motion coming from the right... Is it possible, he's asking, that Marty actually saw motion coming from the right, from John John's side? Perhaps with a weather app. He thought that was the threat. And maybe he thought that was the threat. Maybe it's possible. He's had a lot of time to reflect on what happened. He tells Marty he knows it was a mistake. Then he asks, are you sure this is true? to say it without, I don't want an opinion. But if, I guess, I'm just asking you to be

certain in your heart, in your mind, if you're telling me the accurate story, tell me the truth about how this happened. I've been completely truthful. The agent still seems stuck on the point. There's got to be a way that we can explain this, he says.

He asks again, did you fire at? I thought he was coming down the door. He figured the bad guy was going to wheel into the bathroom and blam. Did you have a target in sight when you fired? Did you fire anything other than that? He's asking if Marty had a target in sight. No. Did you sort of fire it in anticipation?

Right. I assumed he was going to come around with a shotgun and just blip it. And like I say, I'm standing out in the wild. Marty is saying here that he didn't have a specific target when he pulled the trigger, that he fired at empty space, that he shot where he thought a bad guy with a shotgun was going to be by the time his bullet traveled less than four feet. By the way, a bullet comes out of a.40 caliber Glock that Gunn-Marty had at about a thousand feet per second, give or take. There was never a shotgun in the mobile home. There was that sickle in the back bedroom that, given that it's a blade on a long pole, could maybe possibly be mistaken for a shotgun, especially if a man holding it in an open doorway is backlit by the headlights of a

Jeep. That's another spot where memories differ significantly. Nicky swears that door never opened until John John was already bleeding out on the floor. As for how John John's gun ended up balanced against the wall behind the toilet, Marty said he had no idea. After John John was shot, the paramedics loaded him into an ambulance and left for the hospital. Then a detective came to talk to Marty, Randy Llewellyn, the same one who questioned Nicky and the police cruiser. I told him I discharged one round from my weapon. I believe that the suspect did have a shotgun and had played to the wits.

Marty said at this point he still didn't know he was the one who shot John John, but he said he never heard another shot. And you can probably guess this, but it would be really hard to miss a shotgun blast in a confined space. Detective Llewellyn says Marty was an emotional wreck, broken. That's the word he'll use later, barely functioning. Marty's dad, the sheriff, arrived and walked the scene with Randy, who says he knew within 30 minutes that Marty shot John John. There were no bullet holes in the walls of the mobile home. Marty's shot had to go somewhere, and the only hole was in John John. But he wasn't sure if the sheriff had come to the same conclusion.

That said, Marty saying a guy with a shotgun who had just shot John John is loose in the woods. Every cop screaming down Williams Creek Road believed Marty. He's a deputy. Of course they do. And it would be foolish, perhaps fatal, not to. Marty sat with his dad in a cruiser. Police and deputies from all over the area were coming to help hunt down a cop killer. One state trooper says he knocked on the cruiser's window to talk to the sheriff to come up with a strategy to find this guy.

He says the sheriff ignored him. Another officer says Marty and his dad were in there for an hour. Marty said it was only a few minutes. That night, Marty handed his gun over to the TBI and then had two tubes of blood drawn at the hospital to screen for drugs and alcohol. All negative.

That happened at 10.30. Right about then is when he sees Lori. She'd just watched doctors operate on her dead husband. Marty didn't remember exactly what he told her. Do you recall telling her that you were looking for Mark Newman? No, I do not recall telling her we were looking for Mark Newman. Do you deny that? Yes, I do. He said he had no idea how looking for Mark New. Do you deny that? Yes, I do.

He said he had no idea how Mark New's name got mixed up in any of this. He never told anyone it was Mark New who shot John John, and he wasn't involved in any manhunt. It's a mystery. That's Marty's memory, his story of what happened. The two other officers there that night, Carl Newport, the part-timer, and Sergeant Donnie Phillips, they both still live in Scott County. I went to Carl's house one afternoon because he initially agreed to talk. But when he saw our producer, Lindsey, with a mic, he said we couldn't record him. Actually, it didn't matter.

Carl didn't really have much to say. He was on the far side of the mobile home the whole time, and he's hard of hearing, too. Didn't even hear the gunshot. All he knows is he went to Ryan's home, and then there was a lot of chaos. Then there's Sergeant Donnie Phillips. Donnie was elected clerk of courts in 2006, so we knew where to find him, the Scott County Clerk's Office.

Hey, how you doing? I wonder if Mr. Phillips might be around. It was late in the afternoon. Hey, how y'all doing? Good, how are you? I'm Mr. Phillips. Yes. Okay.

Nice to meet you. Nice to. Okay. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. We're with a podcast company called Campsite Media, and we're doing a story on John John Yancey. I know you were one of the officers there that night. It was wonderful to talk to you about it. Okay. Can I do it?

I've got to leave here in about five minutes. Sure. We can schedule a time. Okay. He says he's about to leave, but to give him a call to schedule a meeting. So I did. Called him several times. He'd always just stepped out or someone had just stepped into his office.

I got routed to voicemail once, but it just rang and rang. After a few weeks of that, I called him from a different number, Lindsay's phone. We'll be working on this project for a while, so we mean, we can certainly do it really at any time at your convenience. Okay. You know, if we did something remote over the phone. Okay. Yeah, if you just want to call back then, that'll be fine. Just want to holler back Wednesday or something then. Wednesday? Okay, I'll give you a call on Wednesday.

And then it'd be easier then, if you don't mind, if we could just set up a time. I'll call you on Wednesday we can schedule something so that we're not sort of like rushed over the phone there if that's okay. Okay.

All right. That'll be fine then. That'd be fantastic. Thank you sir. I appreciate it. Bye. He has to go and fucking talk to us.

I called him and called him again. Never heard back. I really wanted to talk to Donnie. His story is consistent with Marty's story, for the most part. In his statements to investigators, he said the whole thing was John John's idea, that Marty wanted to hold off, get some sleep, try again in the morning. He also said, in his very first statement, hours after it happened, that he heard Marty yell something

out the door right before John John ran in. But he said he didn't understand what Marty yelled. That's another one of those memory things that's pretty important. Nikki, who was standing a few feet from Marty, swears he yelled for John to come inside and help catch the bad guy. She said that the night it happened, then again weeks later, and she even said it years later. Story never changed. Marty, for his part,

in his early and very detailed statement, didn't mention yelling anything at all. Of course, it was very late, after 3 a.m. when he gave that statement, and someone else typed it out for him, but it was only later that he said he'd yelled out the door, except Nicky had it wrong. He'd really told John not to come in. That makes Donnie kind of a tiebreaker. If Marty yelled, come in, that blows his story about not knowing John John was there. That matters. But when Donnie was asked the first time, right after it happened, he was crying, badly shaken, nervous. He didn't know until he went home, and Donnie says, and I'm quoting here, I just prayed about it. He says, I was praying and asking the Lord to help me through this, because I was having a hard time and trying to just focus on what Marty was saying.

Sometime later, days or weeks, depending on when he is telling of this miracle, the good Lord refreshed his memory. Marty, he says, definitely told everyone to stay out. And that's what he told the District Attorney General. My name's Paul Phillips. That guy, the former DA, the one who held the big press conference. He agreed to talk to us. He and Donnie aren't directly related. Like Carson, Phillips is also a common name in East Tennessee. I was the district attorney general of this judicial district for more than 33 years. You know what's great about ambition?

You can't see it. Some things look ambitious, but looks can be deceiving. For example, a runner could be training for a marathon, or they could be late for the bus. You never know. Ambition is on the inside. So that road trip bucket list? Get after it.

Drive your ambition. Mitsubishi Motors. What was the last thing that filled you with wonder that took you away from your desk or your car in traffic or your sink full of dishes. As an actor, it's very free being part of these shows. You can step in the booth and kind of be anything. Well, for us, and I'm going to guess for some of you, that thing is... Anime! Hi, I'm Nick Friedman. I'm Lee Alec Murray.

And I'm Leah President. And welcome to Crunchyroll Presents The Anime Effect. It's a weekly news show. I literally, when I saw it, when I found out about this, I literally had like a nervous breakdown in a good way. With the best celebrity guests. I've never pirated anything, but I'll steal it if I have to. That was how I felt when I started to get really hooked on Black Butler.

Oh, it's coming back. It's coming back. So join us every Friday wherever you get your podcasts and watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or on the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. Today, Paul Phillips is the general counsel for a children's foundation that helps kids get access to anything from dental care to reading coaches. I met him in his office on a Tuesday afternoon in Scott County. He had a friend with him, the retired TBI agent who oversaw the investigation. This is Bob Denny, who was the head of the TBI in East Tennessee until his retirement. Paul Phillips was the prosecutor for five rural counties with a population of about 130,000 people altogether. I was appointed in 1979.

I had to run in 80 for the rest of a term, and then I ran in 82, and then eight years later in 90, and so on. Were you ever opposed? I wasn't. I was not opposed, no. The district attorney general is the prosecutor who oversees an office of attorneys who handle all the criminal cases in those five counties. Everything from speeding to murder. Phillips has worked with a lot of sheriffs, and he was elected long before Jim Carson. Their relationship, he says, was cordial, professional.

I don't have any opinion that I would want to express. I got along with them well enough. I tried to always have an arm's length relationship with the sheriff's department. I didn't want to be their buddy. I didn't want them to be my buddy. So when Phillips gets a call telling him the sheriff's son had been involved in a shooting and that another deputy is dead. He immediately calls in the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. That was a standing order from our office.

He had lots of leads. There was lots of work done. I mean, the investigation went on for a considerable period of time, and in fact, it was an open file. For several years. Phillips says that when he called that press conference days after the shooting, he wasn't intending to make any official ruling on the case. He says the way it was reported in the news, that the killing had already been ruled an accident, was a misunderstanding.

It was the early part of the investigation, not the end, no. What we were trying to do is to say that this shooting was not done by the meth perpetrators who were in the mobile home. That was the purpose of that. To clear Nicky and the other three of rumors that they'd killed John John. Unfortunately, a good journalist won't leave it at that, and so they were asking us questions. And our preliminary opinion at that time was that it was a tragic accident. But we were in the early stages of the investigation, and we didn't rule that it was an accident. We were just trying to

acknowledge that the meth defendants in the mobile home did not kill this officer. The TBI continued interviewing people for months after the shooting. They taped an interview with Marty in February of 2004, 12 weeks after the fact. That's the one where they asked if he was really, really sure he was telling the truth. I feel like that the TBI in their investigation was very thorough and I think also was very open to pursuing leads. For us to bring a criminal charge, there would have had to have been more evidence, proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It was the TBI's assessment that we've never had a case beyond a reasonable doubt of a

crime. And it was a very reasonable explanation from all the evidence that this was a tragic accident. That was a reasonable interpretation of the evidence. I had a lot of questions about that evidence. Like, for instance, Donnie Phillips' story about how he prayed for his memory to come back and then shared that memory with the DA. Do you remember anything about that conversation? I remember Donnie...

I mean, I don't have any idea when this took place, but I remember asking Donnie if he felt like we missed anything, and I remember the response that you said that he had. Did that strike you as odd? Did what strike me as odd? Almost two months have gone by, and this is a pretty crucial thing. It didn't strike me as odd, no. This was an extremely traumatic situation. I mean, if Donnie had said, I still don't remember what was said, there still would have been reasonable doubt as to whether or not this was an intentional homicide. So either way, according to Paul Phillips, whether Donnie backed up Marty's

version of events or not, evidence of a crime just wasn't there. Were you concerned as an investigator with the circumstances of this? Sure. I mean, specifically, you know, in one of Marty's TBI interviews, you know, Steve and Vincent, one of the TBI agents, um, he said, we got problems with your story. Marty wasn't able to explain why if he's got a threat over here, he shot over here and then holstered his weapon and put it and turned his back on where he said the threat was. We thought it was troubling. We also know that this happened within seconds and nanoseconds. We know that it was a chaotic scene, but that doesn't mean that there was proof of an intentional killing beyond a reasonable doubt.

It was clear that from all the evidence that Marty thought there was a person in the mobile home with some kind of long firearm like a shotgun. I mean that's all I can say about that. Gun behind the toilet? Troubling? Yes, I mean that was something that was looked into. I mean how did it wind up there? That was a troubling detail. Or how about Marty's claim that he yelled for all the officers to stay outside when he thought one of the suspects inside had a gun? Would anyone tactically say that that's a smart thing to do? I think Donnie thought that he was trying to protect them. He didn't want them.

He thought it was a dangerous situation. If you've never been in a situation at a shooting, everything is focused. That's Bob Denny, the retired TBI agent. He's been sitting quietly, listening. But this part made him jump in. You can't judge what people say or do. It's training. And if he says, don't come in, I find that the better of saying, come on in,

because he's trying to assess. I'm just putting myself in that shoe. You're trying to assess what you see and what's going on, and you don't need people coming in that you don't know who they are at that point in time. I mean, that's just me because I've been there, I've seen it, and it's not a pleasant thing. It's a very traumatic experience, I can tell you. Bob was with some other officers once, approaching a house, and a guy inside opened fire. The rest is a blur.

When you're trying not to die, the mind focuses very tightly on whatever's trying to kill you. Remember that bear from the beginning? The amygdala takes over. You get tunnel vision, tunnel hearing. Everything focuses on the threat. A lot gets filtered out. We had to go back and sit down and talk about, where were you? Because people couldn't see. I didn't know where everybody was. That's what Bob Denny is suggesting happened with Marty. But what about Nikki? She says Marty definitely yelled for John to come inside. Well, you've got meth people there.

I guarantee you they don't know what was said. Okay. I mean, I wouldn't put any... They've been cooking meth for several times. Right. I wouldn't put a bit of credibility on what they saw or what they said. When a police raid somewhere and you've got meth users in there, it's chaotic. You're worried about your own safety.

You have to worry about the safety of them if they're cooking meth and what can happen. So I mean it's in your you go back and let me just say this and I'm gonna shut up. I came here because I want you all to know that this case was wrestled with, looked at, gone over, reinvestigated. I had people complain to me about the case. We would follow any lead. He would listen to us. We would talk about it.

He makes tough decisions. But if there would have been a case that could have been prosecuted, General, I have 100% confidence, we would have gone. And I know it makes good journalism. Good, good. I mean, I'm just being honest. But you think that somebody did something wrong.

I'm here to tell you nobody did anything wrong as far as prosecution. If there had been any way to present a case with some proof, he would have done it. And, I mean, that's basically it. But that wasn't it for Lori. It was just the beginning. I don't trust them. I don't feel safe.

I feel it in fear. I feel it in fear for my kids. The hows and whys weren't yet clear to Lori, but one thing was. Her husband was dead, and she thought it was because Marty Carson meant to kill him. And she was determined to prove it. Coming up on Witnessed, Friendly Fire. I feel like I just needed an attorney who was going to look at these officers more.

They wouldn't be afraid. What they found is a freaking hornet's nest. He said, if I come up missing, you'll know what happened to me. Scott County, you know, the roamers can run wild like wildfire. He said, why your husband was shot? He said, you've got this all wrong. Welcome to Origins with me, Kush Jumbobo the show where the biggest names in entertainment tell me the stories that made them who they are today origins is a conversation about my guests early inspirations and growing up guests this season include dame anna winter poppy delavigne pete capaldi and golda racheval aka queen.k.a. Queen Charlotte in Bridgerton. I only kind of discovered my sexuality when I went to drama school. Join me every week to hear where it all began. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is Origins with Kush Jumbo. Thank you. Fire was reported and hosted by me, Sean Flynn. Lindsay Kilbride is the senior producer,

and Callie Hitchcock is the associate producer. The story editor is Daniel Riley. The series was sound designed by Shani Aviram, with mixing by Iwen Lytramuen. This episode was fact-checked by Alex Yablon. The theme song is Booey by Shook Twins. A special thanks to our operations team, Amanda Brown, Doug Slaywin, Aaliyah Papes, and Allison Haney. Campside Media's executive producers are Josh Dean, Vanessa Grigoriadis, Adam Hoff, and Matt Scher.

If you enjoyed Witnessed Friendly Fire, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.