The Binge Crimes: Lady Mafia - Friendly Fire | 8. The Verdict

Episode Date: July 25, 2022

The civil trial that will determine whether Marty is liable for killing John John officially begins. We are left with the biggest question of all: Did Lori do the right thing? A Campside Media & Sony Music Entertainment production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I want to introduce you to a man named Patrick Weber. Let me, just one moment, let me turn this volume down just a little bit. Go ahead, I'm sorry, good morning. He's retired now, but he used to work in the office of a company that makes doors and windows. He lives in a small community called Powell, Tennessee, just north of Knoxville and east of Oak Ridge. And he's been there for a long time. That's where he raised his family, and that's where he lived in 2007. Well, I had, of course, my wife and my son just started going to UT, and my daughter was in middle school at that time. Patrick's a native of East Tennessee.

Law-abiding, upstanding, the kind of guy who wouldn't try to duck out of jury duty. So when he got a summons in the mail, he went where he was told to go, the federal courthouse in Knoxville. I was chosen, I guess, to be on a jury for a federal trial, which took place back in November 2007. That was Lori's case. Patrick lived about an hour south of Scott County, and he was familiar with it. He had passed through a few times for work. Did you ever have any interactions with the Scott County Sheriff's Department? No, no. That's one thing that they'd ask us about was if we knew the defendant or the plaintiff,

and of course I did not. He says he might have heard something about the lawsuit or about a deputy getting shot. Nothing specific he could remember. It was just part of another news broadcast, and I didn't even know the names of the people that were in it or involved or anything, but it seemed like I'd heard something about it. Now, of course, he knows almost everything about the case. On November 5th, 2007, he drove to the federal courthouse for the first day of testimony in Yancey v. Carson. It seemed like we had to be there at nine o'clock. Patrick gathered with the seven other jurors and waited in a side room until the judge, Thomas Varlin, called them into the courtroom. George Varlin made arrangements for us, the jury, to leave by back doors.

They were concerned that there were people who may want to influence us. So he had us weave our way through the federal building there, back to where we were parked. Was that every day? Every day. Were you concerned about your safety at all? Well, at first, yes. Judge Varlin, he wouldn't have gone to the trouble to lead us out this circuitous way if he hadn't had some concerns about it.

They introduced the lawyers for the plaintiff and the defendant, and that's kind of the way it started. From Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment, Season 2 of Witnessed, this is Friendly Fire, the final episode. I'm Sean Flynn. I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankopan. And in our podcast, Legacy, we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we are looking at the life of the British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill. It's fair to say he's a complex and controversial character.

Almost 150 years since his birth, how does his legacy hold up today? Follow Legacy now wherever you get your podcasts. Or binge entire seasons early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Opening arguments in Laurie Yancey's civil suit against Marty Carson began on Monday, November 5th, 2007. Three years, 11 months, and eight days after Marty shot John John. And they happened in Knoxville, in a courtroom an hour south of Scott County where the Carson name didn't have the same authority.

Neutral ground, more or less. Lori met with her lawyers that first morning at Herb Monseer's office in Knoxville. Sunny day, a little bit cool. The federal courthouse wasn't too far, maybe just a couple blocks. So we all walked over there. You know, I haven't

seen Morty. I haven't seen that family. So I'm really nervous just about meeting all them in court, you know, just being face to face with all of them. It's a lot weighing on me. But, you know, I'm glad to be there. I feel like finally, you know, someone's going to hear John John's side of the story and what's happened. So, relief that we're finally there. Lori was called to the stand late on that first day. She was the fourth witness after a lead TBI agent and two state troopers. She spoke very softly. So softly that one of her lawyers reminded her to pull the

microphone closer. He asked her about her life with John John, and he showed some pictures to the jury. John John and Lori on their wedding day. John John at the police academy, a vacation in Myrtle Beach. That lasted four minutes. And then that lawyer led her into the night her husband died. Hey, this is Lori. That's not John John's truck. We don't know which one it is, okay? Okay. From Thanksgiving, the day before the shooting, through those hours in the emergency room with John John,

all the way to the viewing in the funeral home where people had lined up for blocks to pay their respects. A very emotional day. The whole thing is overwhelming all the way around. You know, being put on the stand, you know, and going through mine and John John's life together, the night of the event. It's just, it's really, it's just hard to talk about all that, especially the night that that happened. Lori, in her testimony, had just gotten to the part where Marty approached John John's casket. She said Marty's wife was on one side of Marty and Donnie Phillips was on the other side.

She said that it was, quote, as if they were carrying him up there. And she thought it was very odd. Then Marty's lawyer objected, because he knew what she was going to say, that Marty reeked of alcohol. Judge Varlin sustained the objection. As Marty's lawyer put it, he could have been drunk, if he was drunk, at his partner's funeral visitation for any number of reasons. The next day, the second day of testimony, Marty's lawyer cross-examined her. He asked some pointed questions about the alleged motive, how it had switched so quickly from politics to drugs, as if she were scrambling, trying to find any reason to make an accident look evil. I think he just tried to paint me as a greedy widow looking for money. I feel like that's

the way he saw me or thought it was. I think he was really kind of a smore-aleck with me. I guess that's my opinion. I think he really believed Marty Carson. From the jury box, Patrick Weber and the other seven jurors were taking all of this in. Trials don't typically open with bombast and drama. You have a plaintiff methodically building a case and a defendant just as methodically trying to undercut that case. The jurors are just supposed to listen. And you don't want to try to form any opinions one way or the other. There seemed to be ordinary folks

who just had an unfortunate encounter that they were trying to resolve. There's no audio or video recordings of the trial, but we do have almost a thousand pages of transcripts. There were no real surprises, nothing you haven't heard already, except for this one thing. Early in the trial, the very first day, third witness, his name was Mark Chitwood, and he was, still is, a trooper with the Tennessee Highway Patrol. Before that, he was a part-time deputy with the Scott County Sheriff's Department. He was also John John's friend. Mark Chitwood testified that John John had been investigating Marty Carson for, quote, being involved with the drug trade and accepting payoffs. He also said that John John had been

doing that, investigating his own partner, since 2001, two years before he was shot to death. That's apparently the first and only time Mark Chitwood has ever said that. I wanted to talk to him, to confirm his testimony, and to learn more about John John. He said he wanted to talk to me, but that I'd have to clear it with his boss at the highway patrol, which I tried to do. My request was denied, and I was not given a reason why. Rick Babs swept into the courtroom on the second day. He introduced himself as an outlaw and said he bought drugs for Marty, and he told a story about the cemetery, and he also conceded that he had a terrible memory.

A man named Nick Lettner followed Rick. He also used meth and got arrested a lot. He said that starting around the year 2000, he was cooking meth with Lonnie Gunter, and that Rick Babb picked up that meth for Marty. Nick Lettner, in fact, said that he escaped from jail, was allowed to escape with Lonnie, just so they could make more meth for Marty. Nick also said that shortly before John John was killed, he was locked up in the Scott County Jail. He was what's called a trustee, which means he had some extra privileges, a little more

freedom, could work around the jail. He said he was hanging sheetrock outside of Marty Carson's office when he heard Marty say, the problem with Mr. Yancey is going to be taken care of. The defense pointed out that Nick didn't actually see Marty when he supposedly heard this, so how could he be sure who was talking? Marty Carson testified on the fourth day, but not in his own defense. He was called by Lori's side so that Herb Monsier, her lawyer, could point out the contradictions and inconsistencies in his evolving story. Like about the lighting.

How could it be pitch black in the bathroom, but well lit in the hallway? Marty couldn't really explain any of it. That's just the way he remembered it. He also said he never used Rick Babb as an informant because his information was never any good. And he most definitely did not ask him to kill anybody. After five days of testimony and then closing arguments, the case went to the jury on November 13, 2007. How are you feeling when the jury disappears to go deliberate this? Are you hopeful? Are you worried? Both.

I mean, because you can't read a jury. I couldn't tell anything. But I thought that Herb and David both did a great job in the trial you know delivering all the facts and I think it definitely pointed to Marty's inconsistent statements but not knowing what a jury is going to decide if that was enough or not and then whenever they went out to deliberate my family John Jones family were all there We just went to a place close by just to get some food while we wait. And I remember I couldn't eat anything. I sit and I think I cried the whole time. It's just because I thought, you know, all this is just in their hands. But yeah,

as I've said, worried because just not knowing, you know, how they're going to see this. Meanwhile, Patrick Weber was elected foreman of the jury, basically its spokesperson. Any questions the jury has or anything the judge wants to know usually is directed to the foreman, and then the foreman presents it to the court or presents it to the jury, depending on who's asking. The question we had to answer to us was whether Deputy Carson meant to shoot John or not on purpose. You go back into that jury room. When you get back there, then what? Is there a plan?

Are there objections? Is there arguing? We got back in the jury room, and I said, okay, we've heard all the evidence. Now let's start talking about what we've heard. It was pretty thoughtful. There was not a whole lot of evidence. It was mostly just testimony. There wasn't very, very little physical evidence. Some people had more questions than others. At least one or two of the jurors were questioning some of the testimony that we heard. He means testimony from people like Rick Babb and Nick Lettner. Did you find them credible? At the time we did, as they seemed lucid at the time,

but you have to take, you have to consider that, especially, you know, there were some witnesses, people that were in the jail that said they overheard Marty saying that he was going to take care of John. How long were your deliberations? I'd say probably four or five hours, maybe. It seems like there was one juror, maybe two, that were undecided even almost until the end. Like Patrick Weber said, there wasn't really any physical evidence to decipher. What the jury had heard over the five days of testimony were stories, different versions of the same event.

Carson said that John was not behind him. So when he went down the hall, there was nobody in the hallway apparently but him. But the young lady... That would be Nicole Porter, Nikki, who opened the door for Marty and held John John's hand as he died. Said that no, that John was right behind him. So that's one of the reasons we finally got to the point where we almost had to reenact the shooting itself. There was another little room off to the side. So we had some person act as Mr. Carson, some person act as Mr. Yancey, and then we turned the lights off and on to see what the vision was like because that was a big part of it.

Once you did a reenactment, did everyone sort of fall in line with this, that, yeah, this is what it looks like? Mm-hmm, yes. Yes, everyone finally agreed, says, yeah, this is what it looks like? Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Everyone finally agreed, says, yeah, I believe it looks to us that's what took place. But in the end, it was unanimous, correct? Oh, yes. Mm-hmm.

We decided that Deputy Carson should have known John was behind him because there was enough light that he could have tell. The fact that John followed Carson down that little hallway, that seemed to be the more credible story to us. Another thing was no evidence was ever found of a shotgun being there. We don't know what Carson saw. Interesting. So you thought Nicole's story was more credible than Marty's? Yes.

Okay. Right. I'm Indra Varma, and in the latest season of The Spy Who, we open the file on Daphne Park, the spy who killed a prime minister. As the Belgian Congo gains its independence, Officer Park sets out to build a spy network. Together, they're about to go to new extremes to keep Congo free of communists. Follow The Spy Who now wherever you listen to podcasts. From the award-winning creators of the hit podcast Father Wants Us Dead

comes the stunning new true crime series In the Shadow of Princeton. In 1989, a prominent woman was found stabbed to death in her Princeton home. With no clear motive, it's a chilling mystery that vexed investigators for years. Was the culprit a young outsider the police said was a serial attacker? Or someone in her family? Or even well-heeled students at the renowned Princeton University? He had a ski mask in his possession and a knife. She was familiar enough with them and trusted them enough that she turned her back on.

And that was her mistake. One investigator sees a conspiracy. Is he way off base? Or does privilege help you get away with murder? In the Shadow of Princeton is available wherever you get your podcasts, or you can binge it ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. You know, we get to call the juries back in. And just a lot of emotion.

It's just scared not knowing what you're going to think, you know, if Morty, if they don't find Morty guilty. It's just devastating if they don't. Devastating. You know, we go back in, and all the jurors come back in, and it seems like it doesn't take long you know that they you know give their verdict that they all find him guilty it's just I just can't even explain the relief that just you know came over me it's just you know you just feel like you know, came over me. It's just a, you know,

you just feel like, you know, I'm not crazy. Other people see this the same way that I did. What was Marty's reaction? You know, I didn't see Marty. I didn't even look at him. Yeah, I don't even know. Did you ever hear from him after this? Never.

Never. Never. Never. Never. Knoxville's not a big media market, but every TV station had a camera and a reporter waiting outside the courthouse. Marty, wearing a dark suit and tie and holding his wife's hand, looks very much like a man who wants to run away without looking like he's running, trying to slip by them, but they all follow him down the sidewalk. Some reaction from you on the verdict?

I have no comment. We made them my attorney. Marty hurried away, but his lawyer, John Duffy, stuck around to talk to reporters. Marty Carson, his family, and I are deeply saddened by the jury's verdict today. We respect their judgment and consideration of the case, although vehemently disagree with it. Lori's lead attorney, Herb Monsier, was restrained, as the circumstances would suggest he'd be. It is both satisfying to them to have accomplished this and to have brought the case to this point, but on the other hand, they are filled with memories of John John Yancey.

Herb also said he hoped the investigation wasn't over yet, and that he hoped the verdict would, quote, make other people feel comfortable enough to come forward with more information as to what was going on in Scott County, Tennessee. Lori stood behind Herb with John John's mother, holding her hand. She wore a white jacket and black slacks, and every now and again, the flicker of a tight, sad smile. It was a remarkable moment. It would have been easier for a lot of people to just accept what the prosecutor and the TBI

had decided. An accident, not a crime to be prosecuted. Instead, Lori found a lawyer. Then she found another lawyer who wasn't afraid. She found a different arena with different rules. She found witnesses. And then she convinced a jury, strangers, of what she'd believed in her bones for almost four years. Lori won. Marty lost. But if you turn the sound off, put Herb on mute, just watch Lori. You'd never know what the verdict was. She doesn't look triumphant. And are those even the right terms, won and lost?

Because after the verdict, everyone, Lori, Marty, their families, just went home, back to their lives in Scott County. Because the jurors found Marty liable, that's the term, liable, as opposed to guilty, they had the option to award damages, money. There are some ways to calculate that. For instance, there's loss of income. John John made about $23,000 a year, and he was 35 years old. So if he worked for another 30 years, counting raises, that's a little under $700,000. Juries can also award punitive damages, a fine basically. They can consider pain and suffering. They'll take all of that into consideration, do some rough math, and come up with a number. Those are very human decisions.

Here's Ben Barton, University of Tennessee law professor. The jury is not a machine where you type in 51% or, with beyond a reasonable doubt, 92%. The jury's 12 random people who've been hauled off the street and are put in a jury box, and then the judge actually instructs them. And it's like, you shall find this by preponderance of the evidence. Preponderance of the evidence means more likely than not. And just reads it to them. And if you've ever been to a trial like this, the instructions can go on for 15, 20 minutes.

I mean, they're not listening at all. Like, they're just completely glazed over while the judge is reading. And then they get in the back, and the question is not preponderance of the evidence. What do they have? They're like, did he do it or not? What do you think? That's the actual where the rubber hits the road. They're just like they're going to make that call whether they think plaintiff did enough.

Here's a small window into how the jury was thinking. They sent one question to the judge. The question was, is the malicious and sadistic behavior only referring to the shooting, or can it refer to the lack of care afterwards? The jury ordered Marty to pay Lori $5 million. It's a $5 million jury verdict, so plaintiff not only did enough, plaintiff wowed them in this case for sure. William Paul Phillips, the prosecutor who declined to bring criminal charges against Marty, didn't quite see it that way when I asked him about this. An East Tennessee federal jury basically came to the conclusion that Marty killed his partner on purpose. By a preponderance of the evidence.

An East Tennessee federal jury is not going to weigh, it's 51 percent, yeah, I mean, we have to be reasonable about that. That was, they weren't going with a preponderance of the evidence. Well, you can't speculate on that. You're saying that it wasn't a preponderance. It would be just as easy for me to say she had small children, and the jury did not know that she had received a compensation from this death. The jury didn't know that. She had received, there's a national fund for officers who are killed in the line of duty, and she had received that.

She was married, which was a happy event, but the jury didn't know that. I mean, I could argue just as much that this jury was swayed by sympathy for this widow and her children. She had been compensated, but they didn't know that. That was not admissible. The fact that she had married, that wasn't admissible. And I'm not saying the jury should have known that. I'm just pointing out to you, they did not know that. And she absolutely is a fine person and is worthy of sympathy. Phillips, in that last bit about Lori remarrying, is of course talking about Howard Ellis. Remember him? Lori's new husband, the former prosecutor. Marty's lawyers really wanted the jury to know that Lori had remarried and that Howard was helping her. After all, as her husband, he would likely benefit from any judgment Laurie might win. It's a very thin argument. Howard was no longer a prosecutor.

He couldn't offer anyone a deal. He couldn't cut time off anyone's sentence. Couldn't toss anyone's charges. Judge Varlan agreed and ruled that Laurie's marriage to Howard had no bearing on what happened in that trailer and was not actually relevant to whether Marty shot John John on purpose. But what Phillips seems to be suggesting is that if the jury had known Laurie had a husband, maybe their verdict would have been different. Luckily, we have a juror we can ask. We've had people tell us with great conviction what the jury was thinking, and I want to run those both by you real quick. Would it have made a difference to you or the jury to know that Lori had been remarried and that money from a national fund for officers who are killed in the line of duty had been paid to her? No, no, it wouldn't have made any difference. Did you just feel bad for Lori? Well, sure. I mean, you feel bad for any young lady who's lost her husband like that.

I mean, that's tough. But did that affect your verdict? That's your other question. No, I don't think it did. No, well, at least it didn't to me. And what about the standard of proof? Are you reaching a verdict based on 5149? Or are you feeling a little more certain about this?

Well, we wanted to feel as certain as possible because there was so much money involved. Ben Barton thinks the key to Herb Monsier's strategy was discrediting Marty. I would bet, I'm just going to bet dollars to donuts, he won this case by persuading the jury that Carson was a liar. I don't think that he won this case because he proved that Carson wanted to get rid of somebody for office or that he ran a meth lab. I bet he won this case because he was like,

dude, this guy's story doesn't hold water at all, which is enough in a civil case, but that's a lot harder in a criminal case. Beyond a reasonable doubt, the prosecutor doesn't have the option to come in and be like, I've got eight theories about why this happened. The prosecutor typically comes in and has to prove just a straight story. This is what happened and why. And it really would be hard to put that together on these facts. We can't speak for the whole jury, but Patrick Weber says that's basically right, that the jurors just didn't believe Marty's story. But Patrick didn't completely rule out Laurie's theory either.

The motive they were alleging, that Marty murdered John John because John John found out Marty was in the meth business. It sounds like you at least did not discount that motive. We did not discount that. There wasn't any proof. But it seemed to me like that Marty, they were taking payoffs. I don't see how they could carry on like that without the police knowing about it. I still feel like that Carson knew what he was doing in that trailer that night. You know what's great about ambition? You can't see it.

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And welcome to Crunchyroll Presents The Anime Effect. It's a weekly news show. I literally when I saw it, when I found out about this, I literally had like a nervous breakdown in a good way. With the best celebrity guests. I've never pirated anything but I'll steal it if I have to.

That was how I felt when I started to get really hooked on Black Butler. Oh, it's coming back. It's coming back. So join us every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts and watch full video episodes on Crunchy Roll or on the Crunchy Roll YouTube channel. Nothing really changed in Scott County after the verdict. The Carsons were already out of power and Lori was still a nurse in the ER. She never got a dime of that $5 million. She never expected to. Marty was responsible for paying, not the county or its insurance company. And Marty was

never going to have $5 million. But she says money was never the point. Lori wanted the verdict. She wanted a jury of her peers, of Marty's peers, to say, yep, he shot John John on purpose. He meant to kill him. With a verdict like that, prosecutors would have to take a second look. And they did, says Paul Phillips. But there were new allegations that came out in the federal trial and that we and the TBI were going to investigate this new information and that if we developed proof beyond a reasonable doubt, we would prosecute.

The FBI agreed to take a look too. After the federal trial, they called me and said they would review it. And I said, great, you have our cooperation. Anything we have, you're welcome to, and we have, you're welcome to, and I'm glad you're going to do that. I assume they concluded there's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Phillips concluded that because Lori never got the criminal charges from the feds that she wanted. After their investigation, they said they didn't have enough to take this to criminal court,

that some of the witnesses, talking about the people in the trailer, you know, that over the years, some of the stories were inconsistent from what they initially testified to, because time has passed, so many years has passed, and that, you know, they would not take it to criminal court unless, you know, they were certain that they would get a guilty verdict, that they had to have proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that he did it intentionally. So they left the case open in case any new developments ever, you know, came up. So that was how it was left. The case was just left open, but nothing was ever done. Some of the evidence that we investigated that came out in the federal trial,

we found to be not credible. For example, there was a Richard Babb who testified at the federal trial, and after that trial and as a part of our continuing investigation, the FBI gave him a polygraph test about his allegation that Marty Carson tried to hire him to kill Officer Yancey, and he failed the polygraph test. Polygraphs are almost never admissible in court. They're too imprecise, and who's administering the test,

asking the questions and interpreting the results, matters a lot. But the FBI did polygraph Rick Babb, and according to the FBI examiner, his answers were indicative of deception. He failed. His explanation was, well, I was using meth at the time. And when you use meth, you imagine things that don't really happen. Rick said there have been times in the past when he heard things and saw things that weren't there,

and that now, well, he wasn't sure of anything. He said, as a matter of fact, there were other things that my family have told me that I imagine that weren't true, didn't really happen. And so that was his explanation. His nephew Joseph said Rick was high on meth when he took the polygraph. That said, Rick told me that he was stone sober and he just didn't like the examiner, and that threw his answers off. Either way, how does a prosecutor go to criminal court with a witness like that?

That doesn't make him a very credible witness. And anyway, there were other things that were investigated after the federal trial. But the bottom line was, we never thought, nor did the TBI think, that we had proof beyond a reasonable doubt of a crime. I noticed sitting there with Phillips that the phrase beyond a reasonable doubt is stuck in that sentence like a big gaudy ornament. That's some very precise parsing for the killing of a sheriff's deputy. He's not saying there was no crime, or even more neutrally, that there was no evidence of a crime, just that they couldn't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

It's not that I doubt him. It's just curious. Ben Barton also has some thoughts on this matter. Why isn't Marty ever criminally charged? Yeah, several different reasons. The most clear reason is prosecutorial discretion. On the state level, the prosecutors in Scott County work every day with these officers, and under no circumstances, and I mean that in Scott County, it's actually literally true,

under no circumstances would they bring a murder charge against an officer, period. This is never going to happen. There are some places in America where they're trying to roll that out, especially post-George Floyd, but Scott County is going to be the last place where that happens. Theoretically, you could bring a federal charge here, but then you'd need the U.S. Attorney's Office. And again, they're not in the business of bringing murder charges

against police officers. So part of it's that just prosecutors don't want to do this. If you wanted to be more generous to them and say, no, it's not that they have this bias or that they would never take one of these cases because this case is too messy. This case may have been too messy. I mean, it's a really, really, really tough case to make. that's where John John lived most of his life that's where he grew up his parents on the home close to the highway we'll pass that here just a little bit the house we bought was actually just right around the road from where we grew up. I went to Scott County in the fall of 2021, my first time back since I reported this story shortly after the trial. Not much had changed. We went to lunch with Lori and her son Chase at

Ray's Axe Grill. You should get the corn nuggets because they're awesome. And Lori took us on a tour of Scott County and of her life with John John. So this is the high school that, of course, all my boys attended. Me and John John went to high school here, and this is where we met. This all happened so long ago. It's been almost 19 years since John John was shot,

15 since a jury said Marty did it on purpose. It should be history, not for Lori or her sons, but for everyone else. Just something that happened in the past. Except, in a way, it's still happening, lingering like the fog tangled around the mountains on this rainy afternoon. It lingers because it was never really solved, not definitively. A jury said Marty meant to kill John John, but the jury couldn't say that beyond a reasonable doubt. That wasn't the standard they were asked to apply. So for a lot of people,

there's still a question, not legally, but in their minds. Was it murder? Looks like they may have the gate closed where we can't drive on. Lori directs us to a park that's special to her. So, yeah, there's the sign with his name on it. They just named this park in honor of John John. The park sign, welcome to the John John Yancey Memorial Park. There's a big picture of John John on the sign. He's wearing a ball cap, smiling, big dimple in his chin. So this is mostly for the high school,

the soccer team plays here, the baseball team, and the softball team. And it's owned by the county. And then this is the Justice Center. She's pointing behind us to the building across the street, the Scott County Justice Center.

The sheriff's office is in there and the jail and the courts. The sheriff is a guy named Ronnie Phillips, and his identical twin brother, Donnie, works right next door. He's the clerk of courts. Donnie was one of the officers in the yard the night of the shooting, the one who ended up confirming Marty's version of events after he preyed on it. He must have to look at that sign at least twice a day. You look so young. Yeah. Robbie Carson, who was the chief detective at the time, he wrote his own book, arguing that the shooting was an accident. It's called This Is Justice? With a question mark. The tragic death

of a Canaan officer and other interesting stories. It's out of print. We couldn't find a copy and Robbie never responded to us. But in excerpts we found online, he argues that there was never a conspiracy to cover up anything because if there had been, he would have been a part of it and he wasn't. So there you go. Chase. So as he's gotten older, he's been more curious and a lot of questions. He was just so young when it happened. He was three. And, you know, as he's gotten older, he's been more curious and a lot of questions. He was just so young when it happened. He was three. And, you know, as he's gotten older, I mean, he was still too young to even remember things from the trial and stuff.

Chase is Lori's youngest. He's in college now, and he's riding with us. We're on Williams Creek Road, where his dad died. I would say, like, start off high school, I started just Googling what was on the Internet, reading, like, the GQ article, the newspaper articles. And I just read that for a little while, and then not until my senior year I asked Mom to read, like, the court transcripts, the depositions, anything that she had. The mobile home isn't there anymore.

Chase had wanted to see it, but by the time he got curious, it was already gone. I sat with Lori for close to eight hours over two days in the house where she raised Chase and his brothers. The house where the man who shot her husband to death helped build the deck on the back. And I kept returning to this one thought. Why stay? Why not get out of here, out of this county? Because it's the place where she raised her family.

The place where she was raised and her friends and their kids. Because despite it all, it's home. So now in all those years since, have you still, have you ever heard from any of the people involved that night? No, no. Still never anything from Marty Carson, any of his family members. This always struck me as the strangest part. Everyone still lives here,

crossing each other's paths, seeing each other at the grocery store, at the gas pump. Lori's husband just casually mentioned to me one day that he saw Jim Carson at the gas station. He waved to him, said, Hi, Sheriff. Marty sort of slipped out of view

once his father was no longer sheriff. But when he cut off three fingers with a saw, everyone knew. And when he got picked up for drunk driving in 2011, the paper printed his mugshot, eyes closed, mustache drooping with the corners of his mouth. And the story identified him in the very first sentence as a former Scott County lawman responsible for the shooting death of his partner. Over the years, you know, not as many people talk about it like they did when that first happened.

So I don't know if that's how people in the community look at it now, that all this should just be swept away and forgotten. It's in the past. That's impossible, because what happened in that mobile home was one of those moments that maybe doesn't define a community, but colors it. Scott County will forever be a place where some people will wonder if a sheriff's deputy got away with murder.

That's something that can't be swept away, can't be forgotten. But what if Lori's wrong? We had to ask. What if she accused a man, built a case against a man, who just made a terrible mistake? No, no. You know, right at the beginning, I didn't think that Marty had did this intentionally. You know, I really, I feel like I gave him the benefit of the doubt,

because I just didn't immediately think, you've murdered my husband. You know, I let him be a part of that funeral. I just didn't immediately think, you've murdered my husband. I let him be a part of that funeral. I can understand an accident. I know those things can happen. Had it been a true accident, I wouldn't have held that against him. I know these unfortunate things happen. It would have just been a tragedy.

But no, I've never felt like, no, I'm wrong. No. The more information I found just proved more that this was intentional. Hello, it's your beauty and wellness BFFs, and we're here to answer all your burning questions. Skincare, makeup, parenting, and more. We have got you covered. Oh, yes, we do. We'll speak with industry insiders, celebrities, parenting, and more. We have got you covered. Oh, yes, we do. We'll speak with industry insiders,

celebrities, and our close friends. And give all our honest and unfiltered thoughts always. Listen to Lipstick on the Rim now on Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. We'll see you next time. Witness is a production of Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment. Friendly Fire was reported and hosted by me, Sean Flynn. Lindsay Kilbride is the senior producer, and Callie Hitchcock is the associate producer. The story editor is Daniel Riley. The series was sound designed by Shani Aviram, with mixing by Iwen Laitremuen.

This episode was fact-checked by Alex Yablon. The theme song is Booey by Shani Aviram, with mixing by Ewen Lytram-Ewan. This episode was fact-checked by Alex Yablon. The theme song is Booey by Shook Twins. Archival news clips you heard are from Nextar Media Group. A special thanks to our operations team, Amanda Brown, Doug Slaywin, Aaliyah Papes, and Allison Haney. Campside Media's executive producers are Josh Dean, Vanessa Grigoriadis, Adam Hoff, and Matt Scher. If you enjoyed Witnessed Friendly Fire, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.