The Binge Crimes: Lady Mafia - Mystic Mother | 4. Operation Goddess Temple

Episode Date: September 20, 2022

When a reporter exposes what really happens during a “whole body healing” session, the Temple unknowingly welcomes in a new kind of seeker, undercover detectives. Want the full story? Unlock all episodes of Witnessed: Mystic Mother, ad-free right now by subscribing to The Binge — All Episodes. All at Once. Plus you’ll unlock brand new stories, dropping every month — that’s all episodes, all at once, all ad-free. Just click ‘Subscribe’ on the top of the Witnessed show page on Apple Podcasts or visit GetTheBinge.com to get access wherever you listen. Find out more about The Binge and other podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Just a note before we get started. This episode deals with some sensitive subjects, including sex and sexual assault. Please take care as you listen. On September 7, 2011, Rebecca Carrara was in the middle of a session when the temple was raided. We kind of got hauled around for a while until we all ended up in the cell at jail. She wasn't fully dressed when she was arrested, so she asked if she could go back inside to get some clothes before she was taken to jail. I remember grabbing my jacket, and thank God I did because it was so cold in there. I remember us all like curling up in a ball on the floor, holding each other, and just with my one jacket covering all of us up as much as we could, just to keep warm.

Rebecca didn't know how long she'd be there. And at some point, she realized she didn't have her medication with her. The medication she took every day for anxiety. She started to panic. And I just didn't know what to do if my anxiety would get out of control. So I'm just trying to use my tools that I learned about breathing and meditation. I was just freaking out. While Rebecca and the other goddesses huddled together in a jail cell, the Phoenix Police Department was preparing to share their huge success.

Over the last six months, the Phoenix Police Department's vice unit began an investigation to the goddess temple. This is Joe Yoner, the Phoenix Police Chief at the time. Undercover officers made deals with employees here at the Goddess Temple. The deals were to exchange money for sexual acts. So do we actually have sex? You're going to be happy. You're going to have a happy ending.

They used investigative techniques to determine and to discover how the business operated. It's Detective Campbell 7828 with Detective Herman 8154. We are going to the temple to meet with the gatekeeper about our employment status there. They determined that Tracy Elise, who you'll see, is the founder of the Goddess Temple, she and others would hire employees to come in, conduct sex acts for money. During the raid, officers searched every room in the temple. They found envelopes filled with cash,

financial documents, sex toys, and at least five binders labeled Seekers. More than 18 people were arrested and indicted, and there would be more to come. The police and county attorney had the attention of the media, and they were saying the opposite of everything Tracy had been saying for years. This is not a religion. Instead of johns, they were called seekers. Instead of sexual intercourse, it was called sacred union.

The women were not called prostitutes, they were called goddesses. Instead of a brothel or a house of prostitution, they called it a church. We believe that no matter what you call it, no matter how you disguise it, that this is a crime, and the crime in this case is prostitution. From Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment, you're listening to Witnessed, Mystic Mother. Episode 4, Operation Goddess Temple. I'm Afua Hirsch. I'm Peter Frankopan. And in our podcast, Legacy,

we explore the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. This season, we are looking at the life of the British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill. It's fair to say he's a complex and controversial character. Almost 150 years since his birth, how does his legacy hold up today? Follow Legacy Now wherever you get your podcasts. Or binge entire seasons early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Okay, so even if Phoenix PD officers weren't reading the New Times every week, there was no way they could ignore the article we heard about last time. It explicitly accused the Temple of prostitution. It was actually handed the Phoenix New Times article

multiple times from different sources. This is Detective Amber Campbell testifying in court. She was one of the detectives in charge of the investigation. We received it from somebody at City Hall, somebody from another police agency. We received it from our own command staff within our building. And everybody inquired as to whether or not

we were going to investigate. So they investigated. And they started where a lot of seekers started. We started looking at Backpage. Backpage.com was a classifieds website, best known for its adult services section. It's the number one place in the Phoenix metro area for an individual to go to advertise their services,

illegal services. Backpage was shut down in 2018 by the Department of Justice, and the site's founders faced charges including facilitating prostitution. They pleaded not guilty to those charges, and according to the Associated Press, they deny that the site allowed ads for sex and claim the site's content is protected by the First Amendment. A mistrial was declared in 2021, and the case was still ongoing at the time of this recording. And while we're on the subject, the founders of Backpage are Michael Lacey and Jim Larkin, who are also the founders of the Phoenix New Times. Yeah. So anyway, the police started on Backpage.

Every couple of days, sometimes daily, we would go to Backpage, type in the Phoenix Goddess Temple's phone number, email address, and print off every single Backpage ad associated with the temple. Detective Campbell also printed out everything posted on the temple's website, phoenixgoddestemple.org. It was important for us to, one, know the language, know the amounts that are being requested, knowing the pictures, the people. It's a great source of intelligence for us. Even though there was a lot of information on the website and in the ads, it wasn't enough to get a warrant to arrest anyone. They needed actual evidence of prostitution.

In other words, proof that sex was being exchanged for money. They needed to get inside the temple. So they called and made an appointment. I had seen you before on your website a while ago, and I kind of wanted to come see you. Remember that call we heard earlier from a seeker? I don't know if it's your eyes or what it is. It's kind of like a deep soul kind of thing or something.

I don't know. And what shall I put as your temple name? I go by JJ. JJ was actually a detective who went undercover with Tracy. I think anybody that works undercover has to take on a certain persona. A persona, like a name and a backstory.

For example, JJ the Rancher. JJ says when you're developing your persona, it's best to draw on what you know. Last thing you want to do is, hey, how you doing? I'm an airplane pilot. Oh, really? I fly planes too. And you don't diddly-squat about flying airplanes, so you know you've already messed up.

So, you know, I think you just want to relate to the people that you're with and understand that world. J.J. wouldn't agree to an interview unless we agreed not to use his real name. Our team struggled with this a lot. By most journalistic standards, anonymity can be granted to a source when their safety or well-being is threatened by publicly using their name. But police officers are in a position of power and usually wouldn't qualify. The reason we decided to talk with JJ and give him the anonymity he asked for is because

some of the people we talked with felt wronged by the way the police handled the investigation. So we wanted to get the perspective of someone who was on the inside and understand how it worked. JJ no longer works at the Phoenix Police Department, and he was clear that he could only represent himself. But he has more than two decades of experience in law enforcement in Arizona, and he was clear that he could only represent himself. But he has more than two decades of experience in law enforcement in Arizona, and he's worked multiple undercover investigations. If you're exchanging money or any other sort of thing in exchange for

sexual services, then it would be deemed as prostitution. My assignment at that time was to see if whomever I was having contact with was participating in that kind of activity. You may be wondering how JJ plans to do this without getting physical. In Arizona, it's illegal for officers to have sexual contact with anyone who's the subject of an investigation or who's in custody. Believe it or not, that's actually not true in all states. And even though it's illegal in Arizona, it still happens. Journalists uncovered multiple instances of this in the last few years. Here's how it should work. An undercover officer like JJ is supposed to see if the suspect will agree to a sexual act in exchange for money.

And then they leave. Before anything goes down. And yes, that means suspects can be charged with prostitution, even when nothing sexual has happened. So JJ has to find a way to walk right up to that line with Tracy. The plan was he'd go in wearing a hidden recording device. Other officers would be listening to the exchange as it was happening. And once they determined that there was an agreement to exchange some kind of sexual act for money, they would call JJ's cell phone. He would pretend like it was work and say he had to

go. So instead of doing anything sexual, JJ and Tracy talked about it. There were conversations about how she was going to rub me down with coconut oil because it was an antiseptic and this, that, and the other thing. She talked to me about chakras and... Yoni, I think, was a term. We don't have the recording of JJ in person with Tracy,

but we do have the transcript. JJ asks, so what are you going to do with raw coconut oil? And Tracy responds, we're going to put it on our bodies. Then JJ specifically asks Tracy if she's going to put coconut oil on his cock. His words, not mine.

And she says, absolutely, I want to. JJ also testified about his exchange with Tracy in court. I, excuse me, but I told her that I would like to put my cock in her chakra. She said, yes, I could put my chakra in her vishakra. She said we will do what pleases us, quote unquote. So yeah, this whole thing is a lot to listen to. It's an awkward thing to be involved in. And so those were awkward words and awkward comments used in an awkward situation.

Besides the obvious, the other awkward thing was the discussion of money. JJ brought it up multiple times, both in the phone call with her when he booked the appointment and also in person. And Tracy always tries to dodge it. Remember that call? Oh, your FFPD? No. So when JJ offers to pay for the session, Tracy stops him. Tracy also knew undercover cops might come to the temple.

She even had seekers sign a form saying they weren't law enforcement. But none of this, the careful terminology, the waivers, the avoidance of money talk, none of it could actually protect her or anyone else involved with the temple. In fact, it would all be used against them. That's after the temple. In fact, it would all be used against them. That's after the break. I'm Indra Varma, and in the latest season of The Spy Who, we open the file on Daphne Park, the spy who killed a prime minister. As the Belgian Congo gains its independence, Officer Park sets out to build a spy network. Together, they're about to go to new extremes to keep Congo free of communists.

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I'm going to touch you in different ways. I'm going to use feathers. I have a wrap. It's made out of silk that I tie around me. It has little beads on it, and I'm going to be brushing it across your body. You're going to feel all these different sensations, and I want you to feel it. Okay. What? So do they actually have sex? During the investigation, officers scheduled sessions with a handful of goddesses. Other officers posed as goddesses seeking employment.

And they collected a lot of evidence. Undercover recordings, online ads, and a detailed understanding of how the temple operates. With this, the Maricopa County Attorney's Office had enough evidence to ask a grand jury for an indictment of 33 people. They used that indictment to get a judge to grant them a search warrant. And you know what happens next. Bam, bam, bam. Open up, police.

According to the police report, the officers knocked, announced themselves, and then entered through the front door. But to Rebecca and others inside the temple, it felt like an ambush. They were unarmed and in some cases undressed. And there was a SWAT team with guns and tactical vests. It felt scary and violent. Almost everyone we talked with called it a raid. But not JJ. I really don't like hearing the term, this place got raided.

Or, you know, that's a street term. Sure, we raided it. You know, maybe even some police officers somewhere say, yeah, we raided or, you know, that's a street term. Sure, we raided it. You know, maybe even some police officers somewhere say, yeah, we raided. No, it's a search warrant. It should be thorough. It should be precise. To me, raiding is like riding down into the village and burning everything and just, you know. JJ wasn't part of the team that entered the building, but he was there when everything went down. We're not here to hurt anybody, but we are going to quickly extricate everyone from this premises so that we can do the legal search that we're authorized by the court to do. J.J. also says that when serving a search warrant, officers have to be prepared for anything.

He gave an example. Imagine a seeker was there that day, and maybe he had a warrant out for his arrest. If he heard police entering, he might think they were there for him, and he might have a weapon. So he could start firing, or barricade himself in a room,

or do any number of things that could threaten the safety of others. It can be the most innocuous, safe-seeming situation, and in a nanosecond it turns to shit. And so that's why they use these search warrant teams. Search warrant teams like the Special Assignments Unit, a.k.a. SWAT team. Search warrants are always traumatic.

I don't care if I went and knocked on your door and you said, come on in, it's still a traumatic event. You've got people you don't know coming in to look through your things. So I can understand a person in that building feeling traumatized or scared. It's a scary situation. This is true for several of the goddesses we spoke with. No matter what you call it, it was one of the most traumatic moments of their lives. And it seemed like an unnecessary show of force. This is a seeker who was also really upset about how everything was handled. It seemed they were doing something for the benefit of the cameras, to show how tough

they were being on a bunch of unarmed women because of the embarrassment of there being what, in the eyes of the law, was a house of prostitution in the middle of Phoenix. Not only did it seem excessive, it also felt unjust. Because most of the people arrested that day were goddesses. No seekers were taken into custody. Police detained and questioned some, but they were all released that same day. We reached out to the Phoenix PD for comment, but they referred us back to the original police report. In 2011, Sergeant Steve Mardos said that they didn't arrest seekers because the temple didn't keep detailed records of their clients. But the main reason is because police are, quote,

focused on the temple and its employees. That's according to a Phoenix New Times article by the same reporter who wrote about the temple. It's true that most seekers who went to the temple didn't use their real names. And we're not sure what was inside those binders police found during the search. But in a 2019 court filing, Tracy wrote that gatekeepers had recorded names, dates of visits, type of ceremony, and real phone numbers

for most of the seekers who visited the temple. And two seekers we spoke with said they weren't concerned about arrests. I'm speaking from a perspective of male privilege here, but I knew my position was secure because they never go after the Johns. It takes two to commit prostitution. But the way these laws are enforced hasn't always been equal. And there's long been debate about who should be punished, the client or the sex worker. While historically the sex worker. While historically,

the sex worker has faced harsher punishment, in recent decades, most states have moved towards equal punishment, including Arizona. JJ was quick to point out that clients are arrested in Phoenix, though clearly that's not what happened in this case. And then there are many who believe no one should be arrested and punished for prostitution, because if it's consensual, it's a victimless crime. If an adult wants to become a sex worker, that should not be a crime. This is Tara, who we heard from last time. She wasn't arrested or charged in this case, but she feels strongly about this. I want people to remember that there were no victims. Tara's perspective is that everyone who practiced at the temple

was a consenting adult. They were there by choice, they could leave at any time, and therefore no one was harmed. Tracy argues this too. JJ's perspective, and the perspective of many law enforcement agencies, is a little different. Was there anybody at the goddess temple that said, you know, maybe I'll try this? And then they're like, ooh, this isn't such a good idea. And that maybe they felt,

I want to get out of this. How do I get out of this? Is that person a victim? Detective Campbell testified in court that she believes there were victims at the temple. Victims of a crime called pandering, which is when someone encourages someone else to engage in acts of prostitution. Detective Campbell gave an example. There's an individual, without naming names or any specifics, but who indicated that she was without a home, a place to live, and came to know the Phoenix Goddess Temple and was told that if she came to the temple, she would be provided with housing. In turn, she was to work as a goddess and have sessions,

and that would pay for her housing. Campbell says some of the women were vulnerable and felt manipulated. They came to the realization after the raid, but they felt duped and betrayed based on their thinking that what they were doing was legal. There's this idea that comes up a lot when we talk about sex work. It's ingrained in our culture that no one would just choose to be a sex worker. That sex workers are people who are in desperate situations,

or who are being forced into it and trafficked. And by that logic, when someone is arrested for prostitution, that person is not only the perpetrator of a crime, but is also a victim. So even though sex work and sex trafficking are different things, law enforcement doesn't always make the distinction. To me personally, I don't know the difference between the two.

Since the 90s, the city of Phoenix has offered prostitution diversion programs to help people get out of sex work. At least one of them was a post-charging program, which required a guilty plea before entering the program. And then, once the program was successfully completed, the charge would be dismissed. But Detective Campbell said that in the early to mid-2000s, the Phoenix PD's vice unit was arresting mostly young women for prostitution. And they realized that most of them were victims and wanted help. Many of them are physically, sexually, or mentally abused at some point. Many of them are physically, sexually, or mentally abused at some point. Many of them have substance abuse problems with either alcohol or drugs.

And even if they weren't being abused or trafficked, they were still in need. You know, I have college tuition to pay. I have dental bills to pay. They don't have an education. They can't support themselves and their children on a minimum wage job. You know, they just got evicted from their house. Their car broke down. So in 2011, the city developed Project ROSE. ROSE stands for Reaching Out to the Sexually Exploited. It was an experimental and controversial pre-charging program, co-founded by Phoenix PD Lieutenant Jim Gallagher with a professor at Arizona State University's School of Social Work. According to Al Jazeera, Gallagher had locked up the same woman nine times for prostitution, which led him to believe that simply locking up sex workers wasn't the solution.

Project Rose was supposed to offer an alternative. Here's how it worked. Dozens of cops would conduct multiple online and street-level sweeps and arrest anyone they suspected of prostitution. But unlike previous diversion programs, they wouldn't be taken to jail and charged, at least not at first. First, they'd be taken to Bethany Bible Church. That's after the break.

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With the best celebrity guest. I've never pirated anything, but I'll steal it if I have to. That was how I felt when I started to get really hooked on Black Butler. Oh, it's coming back. It's coming back. So join us every Friday, wherever you get your podcasts and watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or on the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. Project Rose was a collaboration between the local police department and the School of Social Work. more common as the courts move towards not wanting to seem like they are just criminalizing sex workers and forcing them to serve prison time for prostitution.

This is Crystal Jackson, who we heard from before. She's a professor at Texas Christian University, and she studies sex worker rights. They would go around and they would identify, basically, people who are engaging in sexual labor, arrest them, and then bring them to a church and then get screened as to whether or not they are victims of trafficking and in need of services, or are they criminal, you know, prostitutes who deserve to, you know, go be jailed and then be heard in court. At the church, eligible victims received food, clothes, options for safe housing,

mental health counseling, and options for detox and drug treatment, according to a press release. And they were offered an opportunity to enter a diversion program provided by the agency Catholic Charities. If they successfully completed the program, they wouldn't be charged. But if they didn't complete it, they could be jailed, charged, and prosecuted. And just think about how terrifying that is. So you save the ones who deserve it, quote unquote, and punish the ones who don't. Project Rose was heavily criticized and protested. Monica Jones, who we heard from before,

is one of the people who protested it while she was a student at Arizona State. She believes sex workers don't need to be saved. As someone who engaged in sex work, it was a choice of mine to engage in that, right? Because I needed money in this place of where me being a black trans woman, having no economic stability allowed me to have that support and economic stability in my life. Where I became a part of society where I can pay for my college classes. I can pay for my transportation back and forth from college. I can pay for my college classes. I can pay for my transportation back and forth from college. I can pay for my food and everything else. And so it is a choice. Shortly after protesting Project Rose, Monica was arrested for manifesting prostitution.

Like we mentioned last time, that means an intent to commit or solicit prostitution. The ACLU of Arizona helped Monica appeal her case, and her conviction was vacated on the grounds that she received an unfair trial, and Project Rose was shut down shortly after. But the laws around manifestation are still on the books. Monica says laws like this cause harm, when what sex workers really need is harm reduction. An arrest can lead to a domino effect for someone who's already struggling. Jail time and felony charges can cause someone to lose their job, access to housing, or custody of their children.

And for some, it can lead to deportation. So even though police say their goal is to help victims, the risk of arrest can deter sex workers from seeking help when they actually need it. And they often do need it because the chance of sexual violence for sex workers is high. Tara, who we heard from earlier and who identifies as a sex worker, says that's part of the reason she and other goddesses felt relatively safe practicing at the temple.

I think most women ended up at the temple because the temple was an amazing place to work, for the work that we did. You know, it was either that or work by yourself, which is scary and dangerous. Working around other people can also reduce the risk of assault, but it can't prevent it altogether. And unfortunately, several people say it happened at the temple. We're going to talk about what happened, and we know that can be a lot to listen to. So if this feels like too much for you right now, go ahead and skip forward two minutes.

Okay, here's Tara. She was at the temple with a seeker she'd seen twice before. We were in the middle of a session, and he forced himself upon me, and when he did, I froze up. And I stayed froze up for quite a while. And I remember coming out of the room and just not feeling right. I said, I think something bad just happened. Tara says she told Tracy,

and instead of calling the police, Tracy called the seeker. She said she'd had a conversation with him and that he was sorry, and he didn't realize that he had crossed any boundaries. Tracy told Tara the man was banned from the temple. But Tara felt like that would be really hard to enforce. He could come back with a different name and not everyone would recognize him. So it didn't make her feel any safer.

And, you know, Tracy said after that she was going to put hammers in all the rooms. And I just remember thinking, that's ridiculous. There was no employee handbook for how to handle a situation like this. And to Tara, it was clear Tracy was out of her depth. After she called the Seeker, Tracy organized a meeting to talk about what happened with the community. But Tracy didn't show up. Instead, she asked the man who led Sunday services to lead the meeting. So this was actually the most traumatizing part of that whole rape for me,

is they gathered the entire temple together and made me tell the story to the temple, to everybody. I literally felt like I was on the stand. Tara doesn't blame Tracy for her assault. But she does wish Tracy had been more supportive. And despite all of this, for Tara, the benefits of working at the temple outweighed the risk. She says the vast majority of her experiences were really positive, and it was still the safest environment for her to practice in.

So she stayed. I think she tried to take the actions that she felt would make people feel better. But again, we're doing something illegal where we're the criminals, so there's just simply no protection for us. There's no protection, and there are also devastating consequences. The charges brought against Temple members would include conspiracy, illegal control of an enterprise, money laundering, racketeering, and prostitution. Most of these are felonies. And partly because of the severity of these charges, no one arrested in the case would qualify for Project Rose, according to a

court filing by state prosecutors. Let's not mix religious freedom and religious practices with criminal activity. The two are two very different things and should not be confused. This is the Maricopa County attorney from that time, Bill Montgomery. Ultimately, it's his office that will be responsible for prosecuting everyone arrested in connection with the temple. This press conference was an opportunity for him to set the record straight. Let me further underscore one thing. While it makes for salacious headlines,

this was no more a church than Cuba's fantasy island. Bill Montgomery wanted everyone to know, in no uncertain terms, he was not going to be convinced that this was anything other than a criminal enterprise. And he wasn't going to let anyone else be convinced either. And I don't care whether you want to call it a donation, a fee, whether you want to call your activity healing or a tantric practice, accepting money for sex is against the law. Law enforcement in this county will hold you accountable and will prosecute you for doing that.

That's next time on Witnessed, Mystic Mother. Basically, it was made clear to me that I was facing a minimum of 11 years in prison. There's all these pressures that the system puts on you to try to make decisions that are in your own best interest, but how do you figure that out? I had no chance. I wasn't going to change the law or make it safer for sex work or my family. Do I think the goddess energy is gonna get us out of this? No. It didn't matter to me at that point. I just wanted my baby back.

Tracy, you have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law. The mother has been attacked. My religion is real, and this is going to be a big scene. Or call their 24-7 confidential phone line at 1-800-656-4673. You hear there's no such thing as the perfect murder. Well, that's not true. Because I had a lot of perfect murders. In episode 7 of Denise Didn't Come Home, I finally talked to this guy.

Nobody knew what happened to her. Even the police, they didn't have no idea. I'm the only one that knew exactly what happened. The man who says he murdered Denise Velasca. And I find out what really happened that terrible night. The only two people that know what happened that night is Denise and him. He is the one that has answers, believable or not. Now, one of the top series on Apple Podcasts, Denise Didn't Come Home. In another week, you can listen to all the episodes, wherever you get your podcasts.

This call is from an inmate at the New Jersey State Prison. Hey, I have some pretty important questions for you. I can't wait. Witnessed Mystic Mother is a production of Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment. It's hosted and created by me, Katie Hennick, and me, Leah Hennick. This series was reported by Sarah Ventry and written by Sarah Ventry and Emily Martinez. Additional reporting by Katie and Leah Hennick. Sarah Ventry is our

managing producer. Our story editor and executive producer is Emily Martinez. Additional editing by Mike Meyer. Produced by Katie and Leah Hennick. Associate producer, Sidney Fleischman. Additional production assistance from Mo Laborde and Ron Warner. A huge thank you to Rebecca Ross, our legal researcher.

Our theme song was composed by Betsy Gans and Chris Norby and performed by Betsy Ganz, Chris Norby, and John Rauhaus. It was recorded and mixed by Michael Krasner and mastered by Chris Norby. The series was sound designed and mixed by Claire Mullen. Our recording engineers are Mike DeLay and Gavin Rain at Real Voice LA. Special thanks to Campside's studio manager and mix engineer, Ewan Lai-Tremuin, and Campside producer, Johnny Kaufman. Our fact-checkers are Sarah Sneath and Callie Hitchcock.

Additional research from Alex Yablon. Thanks to Debra Dawn, Hugh Urban, Susan Stieritz, Rianne Eisler, Sfrana Borkataki-Varma, Phoenix Kalita, Natalia Winkleman, and Miriam Wasser. And thanks to Tracy Elise, who gave Campside permission to use videos she created. The Pat McMahon Show is a production of KAZT-TV. Monica Jones is the founder and CEO of The Outlaw Project, an organization that builds tiny homes for trans women of color in Arizona. For more information,

check out theoutlawproject.org. And a special thanks to our operations team, Doug Slawin, Aaliyah Papes, and Allison Haney. Campside Media's executive producers are Josh Dean, Vanessa Gregoriotis, Adam Hoff, and Matt Scher. If you enjoyed Mystic Mother, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.