The Binge Crimes: Lady Mafia - Mystic Mother | 6. The Trial

Episode Date: October 4, 2022

What happens when you represent yourself in your own trial? Tracy’s about to find out. Want the full story? Unlock all episodes of Witnessed: Mystic Mother, ad-free right now by subscribing to The Binge — All Episodes. All at Once. Plus you’ll unlock brand new stories, dropping every month — that’s all episodes, all at once, all ad-free. Just click ‘Subscribe’ on the top of the Witnessed show page on Apple Podcasts or visit GetTheBinge.com to get access wherever you listen. Find out more about The Binge and other podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Campsite Media Morning world, it's Traci Elise and I'm here in Phoenix about to go to court today, not just to defend the Phoenix Goddess Temple and the Sacred Sexuality Movement. Now, come to find out, I'm actually defending the Constitution itself. The trial hasn't even started, but Tracy sounds like she's already won. That's because for her, this case is about more than just the Phoenix Goddess Temple. It's about all goddess temples, and every American's constitutional right to believe what they choose to believe.

But since Tracy fired her attorney, she has to teach herself how to be a lawyer. So she starts watching YouTube videos of Harvard law professors and reading up on Arizona case law and various religious freedom statutes. It's overwhelming. But she has support. She has access to advisory council appointed by the court, and she has help from her family. There's the boxes.

I've got eight of those boxes. There's another bag of documents spilling open. You know, just, uh, whew, it's a lot for this little group, but we're doing well. There's Ben. From the beginning, Tracy's son Ben and her daughter Sylvia are by her side. I just want to give a shout out to my family, my children especially. I've got some volunteers helping in paralegal work.

Just thanks for your assistance. Ben, Sylvia, and their older brother Daniel were just kids when Tracy separated from their dad and left Alaska. And when they got older, Ben and Sylvia went to live in Phoenix to be closer to their mom. Ben was listed on the temple's website as one of a few male practitioners, and Sylvia worked there as a gatekeeper.

Even though she wasn't practicing as a goddess, Sylvia was arrested and charged in the case. Ben wasn't. Sylvia spent months in jail and nearly a year under house arrest before she decided to take a plea. Because of the no-contact order, she had to stay away from her mom all that time. Tracy says that's part of the reason she took the plea. At 27 years old, Sylvia's convicted of a legal enterprise, a felony charge.

A bunch of Sylvia's family members wrote letters of recommendation on her behalf to ask the court for leniency. They describe her as the heart of the family, bright, loving, responsible, and educated. She has a degree in business management from the University of Arizona. She's sentenced to unsupervised probation,

which means she's able to be with her family and assist with her mom's defense. Ben dubs them Team Goddess Bless. As Tracy gears up for her day in court, the team posts behind-the-scenes videos on Facebook and YouTube. In one video, they're in a little office Ben calls the War Room. It's pretty basic, with plain, undecorated walls and a small round table filled with drinks and snacks. New Age music is playing in the background. Tracy's wearing dangly earrings, a sparkly bindi in the middle of her forehead,

and she has leaves in her hair. Sylvia leans over her shoulder and works on a laptop. Overall, the vibe is DIY and a little chaotic. It's almost like they're getting ready for a political campaign. And in some ways, they kind of are. Tracy looks at the camera with a calm smile, and she recites a version of that famous Margaret Mead quote. Never doubt that a small group

of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. So it's a big case and I really could use some support. It's been a while since I actually asked for help. Team Goddess Bless is trying to garner attention and raise awareness about the case online. And because Tracy's livelihood has been essentially shut down, she's also trying to find ways to raise money. In another video, Tracy invites people to the trial. If you care about the freedom of religion in this country, if you care about that women aren't being treated equally under the law,

if you think that it's inappropriate for a government to take down an entire spiritual community of 4,000 people because someone thinks that those ceremonies are harmful. Come out if you'd like to see herstory being made. Finally, after four years. Tomorrow, on November 18th, at 1.30 in the afternoon, the trial of the state versus Tracy Elise and the Phoenix Goddess Temple begins in Phoenix, Arizona. It's time. All rise for the jury. From Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment, this is Witnessed, Mystic Mother, Episode 6, The Trial. I'm Indra Varma, and in the latest season of The Spy Who,

we open the file on Daphne Park, the spy who killed a prime minister. As the Belgian Congo gains its independence, Officer Park sets out to build a spy network. Together, they're about to go to new extremes to keep Congo free of communists. Follow The Spy Who now wherever you listen to podcasts. My name is Miriam Wasser, and I am a former staff writer at the Phoenix New Times. Given the New Times' connection to the case, Miriam was assigned by her editor to cover parts of the trial. We actually grew up with Miriam, and her reporting is how we first heard about this story.

She wasn't there at the beginning of the trial, but she took detailed notes from the day she was there. Despite Tracy's open invitation, the courtroom was pretty empty on most days. I just remember kind of walking into the courtroom, like no idea what to expect. And the first note I have in my notebook from the time is a quote from Tracy, where she just says, I'm a priestess under attack. So it feels pretty fitting. That's something that she will say again and again. She had a jewel bindi on her forehead, as she often does, and a necklace that looked like a vulva, I wrote down. She had beautiful outfits every day. So I mean, when I, you know, most mornings when I walked in, Tracy, Ben, Sylvia would be on one side doing some paperwork stuff and the two prosecuting attorneys would be doing stuff on the other side.

On the other side, representing the state of Arizona, were attorneys Ed Leiter and Chris Sammons. They were two white guys in suits who had a job to do. And I think that they both had roles to play and everyone fell into character. I think that on the one hand, you had the state arguing that this was all about a fee arrangement. And in their view, this fee arrangement broke prostitution laws. And jury, you should find her guilty based on that. And I think to Tracy she saw this trial as a symbol of something bigger of her bigger struggle and I think to her this was a case about intent and and she wanted to argue, you know, my intention was good, and you should find me innocent based on that.

And to have them, you know, vote their conscience on that. Tracy's goal is to convince the jury that her religion is real and valid, and that what was happening at the temple wasn't prostitution. It was whole body healing, which is sacred. But representing herself is a massive risk. So what chance does she have? Well, there is the possibility of jury nullification. It's when a jury returns a not guilty verdict, even if jurors believe the defendant is guilty.

Basically, it can happen if a jury decides it disagrees with a law because it's immoral or because of how it's being applied. But Tracy says she never brought up jury nullification during the trial, and it's unclear if it was part of her strategy. There's also a chance that if she can convince even one juror that her beliefs are sincere,

even if she broke the law, she just might be able to get a hung jury. In another video, Tracy's sitting in front of her computer in a green velvet chair surrounded by documents. There's a tall red candle burning in the center of the table. She says her dad used to play a game called chicken when he was younger. It's when two cars drive toward each other at full speed, and whoever turns the wheel first is chicken. Tracy says now she's playing chicken.

Somebody's got to turn the wheel, and it ain't going to be me. Except it's more like the state's driving a Mack truck, and Tracy's riding a tricycle. You understand the purpose of an opening statement is to give a preview of your case but not to argue. All right? I'll do my best, John. During opening statements, Tracy and the prosecution are supposed to give the jury a preview of their arguments. The prosecution goes first. You probably figured out by now, ladies and gentlemen, this is a case about the Phoenix Goddess Temple.

You take the word goddess and you look it up in the dictionary. It's interesting that you actually will find two different definitions of that word. The first definition of goddess is a female deity. The second definition of goddess is a woman of extraordinary appeal. The reason why we're here today ladies and gentlemen is the why. Why these women were so appealing that men were coming in and out of the Phoenix Goddess Temple. Our goal at the Phoenix Goddess Temple is to help people balance and integrate the energy here in the human energy system.

The Statesman has spent a lot of time talking about sex in the transformation chambers. They're going to describe to you various forms of legal technical terms about sex. And I'm going to say right at the beginning of the track, right now, my very first words to you, that sexuality is sacred, it was part of my personal ceremonies, and I had space for people to teach, guide, learn, heal. The Phoenix Goddess Temple was not a house of worship.

It was a house of prostitution. You're going to hear during this trial that the vast majority of men that walked into the Phoenix Goddess Temple did so with the expectation they were going to receive a sexual act. Then receive the sexual act and then pay money for the sexual act. Typically it would be manual masturbation or something that's usually referred to as a handjob. I don't deny that sex was part of what we were doing. I don't deny that people left donations. And I will prove to you that people came and didn't leave any money and will not come back.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck. It's probably a duck. I don't grant the law. I will be demonstrating without a question that I could not have had the criminal intent. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. I look forward to doing this journey with you. So to recap, Tracy's charges include pandering, prostitution, illegal enterprise, and money laundering. And the prosecution has to prove every element of each charge beyond a reasonable doubt.

A criminal defense attorney could have put on a defense for Tracy by trying to get as much evidence thrown out as possible, by challenging its reliability. And Tracy does attempt to do that. Before trial, she filed more than 30 motions she believed would help her case in court. by challenging its reliability. And Tracy does attempt to do that. Before trial, she filed more than 30 motions she believed would help her case in court. There was a motion to designate the case as historically significant, a motion to refer to her as Dr. Elise, and a motion to provide the jury with a glossary of terms used at the temple. Your Honor, this has been about words the entire time.

My argument is, Your Honor, I need them to hear my words, and then they will understand my intent, and having it come piecemeal and haphazard is just going to allow the prosecution to make their case with words that were never in my mouth, never in my intention. I'm going to deny your motion at this time. She also tries to suppress evidence, including the New Times article and back page ads, and specifically the undercover recordings captured at the temple. Because she says the transformation chambers are like confessionals, and therefore there's a presumption of privacy between seeker and goddess. But the prosecution files a response explaining,

essentially, that since the detectives are the seekers, that right to privacy belongs to them, and they're not claiming it, for obvious reasons. Tracy isn't a defense attorney, so most of her motions aren't filed effectively, and they're flat out denied by the judge before opening statements. All right, are there any other motions we have not addressed? I think we've discussed everything, but I'm not. There have been so many motions filed, I could have missed one.

Is anyone aware of something that I missed that I need to rule on? So Tracy's off to a shaky start. This whole process goes against everything she believes in. She considers the temple to be a free church, which means she doesn't believe in asking the government for permission to exist. She's never played by the rules. But now, she has no choice but to try. That's after the break.

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Or you can binge it ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. At the time, Tracy's in her 50s. If she loses this case, it could mean life in prison. And it's going to be a long trial. 48 days long. They're just a few days into trial when all the energy Tracy had in her earlier videos already seems a bit deflated. In this YouTube video, she's standing in front of a big red rock, watching the sunset. So, three days in court in a row, just about fried my matrix,

because everything is proof-based and none of it is feeling-based and none of it is spirit-based and none of it's based on the truth of your soul. Ben asks her, how does it feel to represent yourself and go to trial? I really can't imagine doing this any other way. Multiple attorneys, we're talking dozens of attorneys that are on the Arizona Bar, have basically refused to deal with this that a church was over you know swarmed and closed no one's willing to grant us any religious protections in the state of arizona i just read there's over 350 statutes very particular to protecting religious freedom in arizona we're like one of the most religious freedom protection states that there is in the 50 states. And yet this

establishment isn't going to let us have any of those protections for our religion. Nope, you can't have them. And the judge continues to say that I cannot use the constitution to in any way around what I was doing at the temple. So, yes, after four years, delayed justice to deny justice, living in the crosshairs, the crosshairs of the government's marksmen. So Tracy was technically barred from using religious freedom as a defense at trial

after a judge ruled on a motion by the prosecution. That's what she's talking about in this clip. Here's what happened. As we know, the First Amendment of the Constitution says that Congress can't prohibit the free exercise of religion. Under the 14th Amendment, that extends to state laws as well. And in some states, there are laws that give people even more protection than the Constitution does.

For example, in Arizona, there's one called the Free Exercise of Religion Act, or FARA. To use FARA as a defense, Tracy would have to prove a few things about her religion, mainly that her reason for breaking the law was motivated by her religious beliefs, that those beliefs are sincerely held,

and that prostitution laws substantially burden her from exercising her beliefs. But the prosecution claimed Farrah doesn't apply, and that Tracy doesn't pass the test. And even if she did, Tracy would have to admit that prostitution was a part of her religion in order to use Farrah. So the prosecution is basically saying, first of all, this case isn't about religion. And even if it were, religion is not an excuse to violate the law. The state's focus, properly in this case, is on what went on between the goddesses who worked there

and the seekers who came in. And those interactions, was there an exchange of sex or money? It doesn't matter what her religion is. It doesn't matter what anyone's religion. She could have, it could have been a Catholic practice. The fact is, our burden is to show that there was an exchange of sex for money. And that's the focus of what this trial is about.

Tracy was still tied up in competency proceedings when the decision about Fira was made. And since Tracy and her attorney, Kutrer, weren't around, it was up to some of her co-defendants and their attorneys to demonstrate to a judge that they met the criteria to qualify for a religious defense, which is a huge gamble since their claims weren't as strong as Tracy's. It was her temple, after all.

And if they didn't meet the criteria, they've now admitted to prostitution. So the other attorneys withdraw their opposition to the state's motion, and a judge decides that a religious defense won't be allowed. Period. And that applies to Tracy as well. So when the prosecution tries to preclude Tracy from discussing Farrah during the trial, Tracy says it's unfair, since she wasn't given a chance to prove that she does meet the criteria. And she asked the new judge, Judge Sherry Stevens, to reconsider.

Your Honor and gentlemen of the prosecution, we're in agreement that religion does not allow a person to break the law. What we're not in agreement about is what happens when a government agency decides that a church is doing something that it thinks is illegal. But Judge Stevens agrees with the previous ruling. And Tracy never gets the type of fair hearing she wanted. Instead, Stevens makes a sort of compromise with her. Even though she's clear this is a jury trial,

not the Supreme Court, she does allow Tracy to bring up her beliefs during trial on a case-by-case basis. And Tracy ends up making it a major part of her defense. Judge Stevens is really patient with her throughout, probably because she's representing herself, and the judge knows how hard that is, which is why most people don't do it. So it's almost like there are two different trials happening, one about prostitution and the other about religious freedom. Here's Miriam again.

Tracy was always herself. So I'd say the difference between Tracy when the jury was there and when the jury wasn't there, there wasn't that much of a difference. She was always herself. The defense calls Tracy Elise. Woo! Goddess Temple opens in Phoenix.

Woo! I'm sorry. Spirit, move me. Spirit, move me. Don't worry, thanks, Spirit. It just comes through. It's the craziest thing. As long as it doesn't come through with the jury in here, that's okay.

And probably like any amateur lawyer, made a lot of mistakes. I came in today and put up a little altar because that's my way. And I found this on the sidewalk outside. It's aloe vera. It's a healing plant. That's early. And, you know, the prosecution called a lot of objections, and the judge for her part, I think, seemed very patient and would call Tracy and Sammons and Leiter to the front, and they would turn off the microphones and discuss things. Mistakes. Like trying to use a self-proclaimed wizard-slash-unicorn breeder as a witness. Or, for example, where the case name goes on her motions, it sometimes says State of Arizona v. Tracy Elise Defender instead of Defendant.

Tracy's generally polite, friendly, and earnest, but it takes her a long time to understand court decorum. And she has a habit of making feisty comments to the prosecutors. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Good morning to our worthy adversary, the state. Religion is not a defense in this case, and I don't understand how this is relevant. Certainly what happened in the sessions is relevant. This doesn't relate to what happened in the session. Did you take a session? Do you know that the sessions have nothing to do with it? Okay, so Ms. Elise, let him finish, right, and direct your comments to me, not to Mr. Sammons.

One of the most important things Tracy needed to do to make her case was to question and cross-examine witnesses. There's a specific way to do this, and there are rules, which Tracy struggled with. Here, she's questioning one of the state's witnesses, a detective who went undercover at the temple. Could you tell me, sir, we're sitting here, it's my religion, you don't believe it's a religion. Could you just share with me why you, just personally, why don't you believe that what I do is a religious ceremony?

Could you put that to words? Because I don't understand. Rejection, relevance, ask and answer. Your Honor, it's relevant because this witness did not see anything I was doing as sacred. It takes Tracy a few tries to get this right. So why did I not think that your business was a religion? Right. After you saw the website and did some investigation, why did you choose to not believe us, that we were sincerely doing a religion? Simply calling yourself a religion and wrapping that around ongoing criminal conduct does not make you a religion. That was my opinion then, and that is my opinion now. But the hardest part seems to be remaining objective. As you know by now, Tracy is a really passionate person.

Witnesses like the detective are able to state their opinions, and Tracy isn't supposed to react. And it's hard for her not to get upset when she feels that the state's witnesses are misrepresenting the temple. This is her life. She was there. Were you open to any of the sacredness that the people were holding in that building? The only thing I was looking for was someone who was willing to exchange sexual services in exchange for money, which is a violation of the law. This is the first time Tracy has come face-to-face with JJ, the undercover detective she met

with at the temple. And she had a lot to say to him. So it's your testimony today that I would sell you sex, that you could give me some amount of money and I would have sex with you? That's what you're testifying to everyone, that I sold sex to you that day. That's your testimony. Yes, you agreed to perform a sex act in exchange for it. I did not agree. What I agreed to was to give you an opportunity to learn from the goddess. Is it possible, sir, that what I was actually offering was a chance to commune with a spiritual woman as you had stated that you wanted? Is it possible I had a different motivation than selling sex? No.

Tracy's trying really hard here to stay calm. Getting emotional can undermine her credibility, and she knows she has to follow the judge's rules. But then… Do you know I felt sorry for you? Do you believe that? The action moved the strike. No, this was an exchange between two people. No, I'm going to sustain the objection. Do you know that no one has ever walked in mocking me into my chamber? Not in 6,000 hours,

I've never been mocked like that. Do you believe that, that no one's ever mocked me like that in my chamber? I did not mock you, ma'am. Sir, you took a sacred thing like chakra energy spinning the soul into existence and made a joke about Cochrane vajakra. But why did you laugh when I said it? Tracy's behavior was such a reoccurring problem that the state asked the judge to intervene. Ms. Elise and Mr. Wade's inability to abide by the court's orders is getting to the point where it's ridiculous and the state cannot get a fair trial. She cannot stop commenting. It's getting absurd. Everything I'm saying is true.

You're not involved in this, please. Hold on. I'm going to send the jury out. All right, Ms. Elise, you have been asked repeatedly not to comment and to ask questions. It is clear that you cannot do that. No, not yet. The state has a right to a fair trial just as you do.

My job is to ensure that both of you get a fair trial. You are making it impossible for me to do my job because you aren't following my orders. Which leaves me with a very simple solution of revoking your right to represent yourself and having Mr. Green represent you. Your Honor, I have, if I may... No, not yet. Okay.

Now, I, yesterday... Tracy tries to interject. I am deeply apologizing for that. And I will get a grip because I know I can't be at my entrance for this cross-examination phase. Sir, I... It's very important that you not talk. Then Ben interrupts. He was acting as her investigator, which meant helping to collect information,

and he could sit with Tracy in court. But Judge Stevens said he kept getting up and making loud comments. So at this point, enough is enough. The judge is stern with Tracy and Ben. She says she's asked him multiple times not to be disruptive, and she threatens to remove him. There are rules of the courtroom, and she threatens to remove him. There are rules of the courtroom, and they don't allow you to react or to respond to what you hear. And if you

can't do that, then you can't be here. The trial went on like this for weeks. In one video, Tracy says, I don't know that I'm a great lawyer. I'm a teacher. And so I'm going into the courtroom to teach what needs to be taught. In some ways, her whole life has been leading up to this. Tracy's mission has always been to spread the message of the mother. It wasn't just about sex, but there's no way to be a goddess woman and ignore sex because even Mother Mary became the mother through a sacred interaction where her womb was impregnated with light. So to us, you cannot separate mother and sex. They go together like peanut butter and jelly. They go together. Mother and sex. Sex and mother.

And the witnesses she calls are the people she thinks can help her with that message. That's after the break. You know what's great about ambition? You can't see it. Some things look ambitious, but looks can be deceiving. For example, a runner could be training for a marathon, or they could be late for the bus. You never know. Ambition is on the inside.

So that road trip bucket list? Get after it. Drive your ambition. Mitsubishi Motors. Between 1979 and 1989, a dozen people from Dallas, Texas died mysteriously. Why do you think it was so

difficult to tie Terry to these deaths? Because there's no smoking gun. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is Scary Terry. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Tracy's witnesses include Tantra teachers, a porn star activist,

the co-founder of the Erotic Heritage Museum, a clinical sexologist, and a few goddesses agree to testify about how the temple had a positive impact on their lives. The energy in the temple was very positive, and the people that I would meet, a lot of the other women there were very supportive and very nice, and I ended up getting a lot of support from them, so that kind of felt like family. That place was so full of good energy. It was a hive of intellectual and energetic exchange, for sure. It was permeated with it. It was great.

I felt at home. I felt connected. I felt like we were all in the boat together and trying to build something greater than ourselves. Even Nicole, who we heard from last time, showed up despite her mixed feelings about the temple. I felt like I had found my spiritual family. Like I finally had somewhere to belong and there were people like me that believed like I did. Tracy also calls her sister Abby to the stand to help show that her religion is sincere and that she's been committed to her faith for decades, even when her family didn't approve. really painful because as far as I could tell, you were just going to continue going into trying to build a church, and it just looked like it was an impossible dream. And you were trying to bring your daughter into it as well because she felt aligned with

you and her spirit, and it was extremely difficult. That's what I recall, just being terrified for you because your conviction and your faith was so great. And what you were attempting to do to create healing and people's sexuality in a spiritual driven way is not something we do in our culture. We don't do that here. And it's dangerous. And you could get into trouble, which, you know, here we are. This conversation doesn't go quite the way Tracy planned. Abby's testimony is surprisingly emotional. Surprising for Tracy and for Abby.

Talking about the past brought up some unresolved tension between them. They used to be writing partners when they lived together in Seattle. And then Tracy left to focus on her spiritual path. And Abby was still hurt. This isn't the first time one of Tracy's own witnesses says something unexpected and not always favorable. But eventually, Tracy gets things back on track. Did you ever see me be ashamed of the work that I was doing? No. You're proud of your work. Did you ever see me stand up for the work that I'm doing? Yes. Many, many, many, many times in the face of people actually wanting to tear you to pieces,

including your family. Have you ever been present when people were laughing at me over my religious beliefs yes yes i have many times have you ever seen my physical threat safety directly threatened by someone who was upset about what i was doing yes i have when did that happen this happened more times than i would like to recall. It has been really hard on my children. Yes. You have personally witnessed my children in the presence of someone else calling their mother a whore? Yes. And it's terrible to have your family member treated that way.

Especially your mom. And yet my children are strong and bright people. And they're actually supporting me in this, as are you. Yes. Even though Abby gets angry at times, she comes across as genuine and accepting of her sister. Occasionally, the jury has questions for the witnesses. They ask Abby, if she was so against what Tracy was doing, why did she become so knowledgeable about the practices? Abby says, Because I want to understand my family members and I get deeply involved in anything I don't understand

in an effort to try to understand it. And the people I love deserve my understanding. Tracy hopes the jury will be as understanding. And they do seem curious. Throughout the trial, they ask a lot of other questions about the temple. For example, they asked Tracy to explain why a sex act isn't just a sex act. One juror had this question. We've heard about the healings for the male seekers. How was the healing done for the women who came to or worked at the temple?

What techniques were used? Who did the healing? Did they have any degrees in the areas of treating mental or physical abuse? How did you know if these women were really healed? We're not aware of any practitioners at the temple who were licensed mental health professionals, but Tracy tries to show that the temple's practices were rooted in ancient indigenous traditions. So she calls James Flaming Eagle Mooney to testify that the Phoenix Goddess Temple was blessed and chartered

by the controversial Aklova Native American Church, or ONAC. ONAC has been accused of selling membership cards to anyone who wants one, including people who aren't Native, giving them access to marijuana, peyote, and other substances used for Indigenous medicinal practices. All you have to do to be a member is fill out an online form, check a box to say you agree with the church's principles and practices, and pay a fee. Many in the Native community have been upset by this, and some have questioned Mooney's

Native identity and his motives. Despite all this, the courts have sided with ONAC cardholders who have bumped up against the law. In 2020, the New Hampshire Supreme Court vacated the conviction of an ONAC member found guilty of possessing psilocybin, or magic mushrooms. And ONAC is considered a church by the IRS. So Tracy's claiming that ONAC's church status and 501c3 extends to the temple, and it's mostly white members. What caused you to decide that you would invite the teachers and practitioners of the Phoenix Goddess Temple to be under the umbrella of your church. Mooney says that he and his wife, who founded the church with him, visited the temple to see what it was all about. I still don't fully understand the Tantra concepts.

Totally, I'm not an adherent to the Tantra teachings at all. I have a respect for it, but I just don't really know very much about that. But until my wife agreed with my thinking, and she was not about to make an agreement with my thinking until we visited your temple. And when we walked into that temple, it was so beautiful and so sacred, my wife looked at me and said, let's do it. But remember, religion isn't the issue here.

The state actually never doubts Tracy's sincerity. As the prosecution said, this trial is about what happened between goddesses and seekers and whether money was being exchanged. There wouldn't even be a trial if Tracy hadn't been accepting donations. So Tracy tries to show that she wasn't profiting. She claimed she took a vow of poverty ages ago, and in fact she was indigent when she was arrested. She had no property, no cash, and any bank accounts, and the temple was in debt. She lived at the Sedona Temple with her boyfriend, who let her drive his Lexus. Tracy said that any money given to the temple went straight back into the temple.

And Abby says this vow of poverty had caused issues for the family in the past. And there's been a lot of discourse in our family as a result of that one action in your life because what's continued to happen as a result of that one action is you take care of everybody but yourself and we all have to take care of you. And I'm awake at night with our mother wondering how the hell I'm going

to do that when we're old and she's dead. Because I'm the only one who seems to want to work for a living in a job that makes sense in the world. And I'm a little angry now. I'm going off. But, you know, vow poverty was real and you've kept it. much to my chagrin. Tracy knows she needs to do more than just show the jury she's sincere and legit. She still wants to show how what she was doing is different from sex work. Good morning, Mr. Hoff. Good morning. You may have heard of Dennis Hoff before.

I have a television show on HBO called Cat House. I have seven brothels. And I understand the sex business, the illegal and the legal side of the sex business. Hoff owned legal brothels outside of Las Vegas and Reno, Nevada. And the show Cat House that he mentioned was a reality show about the Moonlight Bunny Ranch, one of his more famous brothels. He also made headlines back in 2018 when he won an election for a state assembly seat after he died. Tracy called Hoff to testify because she wanted to prove that she was not running a brothel. And who better to do that than a guy who owns seven? seven. So Mr. Hoff, until yesterday, you didn't know much about the Phoenix Goddess Temple ceremonies. Is that true? I didn't know anything about it. And I really had no interest in finding

out until yesterday. Yes. So yesterday, you had the experience of receiving a temple hug from me I showed you the temple hug the temple hug yes and then we did some magnetic touching with your with your own hands and with my hands on your your body your forehead your your whole self we were doing some magnetic touch. Yes, I did. You did that. I did that. By did that, Tracy means she gave Hoff a session, the day before his testimony. Were you kind of surprised that it was something you could feel in your body?

I was totally surprised. And I don't really know how to describe it. I mean, it was in some ways sensual, but mostly the touch was incredible. There was a closeness. There was an energy. Incredibly relaxing. Everyone's face, like, dropped. Nobody saw that coming. And I just remember being like, oh, shit. Like, what?

And, you know, I think that that moment kind of overshadowed anything else that he probably said. But, you know, the case that they were trying to make is understandable, right? Tracy saying, you are accusing me of running a brothel. I'm going to bring in the number one brothel owner in the country who's going to tell you that my business plan was terrible if I was trying to run a brothel. And Dennis Hoff did say that, right? A lot of stuff came down to in his brothels and in prostitution, as far as he said, money is central and money is first. And what Tracy would argue is money came at the end and was important, but not at the heart of what they were doing. Tracy hoped Hoff's testimony would demonstrate that there's no way to run a brothel without negotiation between customer and provider, which she claims didn't happen at the temple,

since there was no guarantee that anything sexual would occur, and they risked not receiving payments at all since donations were left after the session. So you're an expert on prostitutes and an expert on brothels, Mr. Hoff. Could you run your brothel on an honor system where people could leave the amount they want after the act? No, because I know it wouldn't work. Why wouldn't it work? It's when a man or a woman wants something, they're willing to pay for it. After they've got it, they wouldn't want to pay. But the prosecution gets to question Tracy's witnesses, too.

Let's talk more about this full-body healing experience yesterday that you had. Did you get a handjob at the end of that? No. But you didn't really get the full experience, obviously. And when Tracy tries to give the jury a peek into her world, the prosecution is quick to give them a reality check.

She wants you to think that's how they operate because in her mind, that's how they operate in a unicorn land. Now, I think you're smart enough, ladies and gentlemen, to realize how this works. Maybe they didn't necessarily pick their sex out, but they got a sex out. Next time on Witnessed, Mystic Mother. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm a priestess. I am not a prostitute.

Judge, I'm asking that she be removed from representing herself. She continuously violates your orders and says whatever she wants to say. Through the course of our investigation, it was made known to us that at a minimum, the expectations were that the practitioners were topless. I have never harmed a soul. We've never been a harm to society. We've only served to help. Miss Elise, deep breath.

Take a deep breath. And then the phone call came in that the jury had decided. And Sylvia just goes, holy shit. To be continued... free being part of these shows. You can step in the booth and kind of be anything. Well, for us, and I'm going to guess for some of you, that thing is anime. Hi, I'm Nick Friedman. I'm Lee Alec Murray. And I'm Leah President. And welcome to Crunchyroll Presents The Anime Effect. It's a weekly news show. I literally, when I saw it, when I found out about this, I literally had like a nervous breakdown in a good way.

With the best celebrity guest. I've never pirated anything, but I'll steal it if I have to. That was how I felt when I started to get really hooked on Black Butler. Oh, it's coming back. It's coming back. So join us every Friday wherever you get your podcasts

and watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or on the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. It's hosted and created by me, Katie Hennick. And me, Leah Hennick. This series was reported by Sarah Ventry and written by Sarah Ventry and Emily Martinez. Additional reporting by Katie and Leah Hennick. Sarah Ventry is our managing producer. Our story editor and executive producer is Emily Martinez. Additional editing by Mike Meyer. Produced by Katie and Leah Hennick.

Associate producer, Sydney Fleischman. Additional production assistance from Mo Laborde and Ron Warner. A huge thank you to Rebecca Ross, our legal researcher. Our theme song was composed by Betsy Gans and Chris Norby and performed by Betsy Gans,

Chris Norby, and John Rauhaus. It was recorded and mixed by Michael Krasner and mastered by Chris Norby. The series was sound designed and mixed by Claire Mullen. Our recording engineers are Mike DeLay and Gavin Rain

at Real Voice LA. Special thanks to Campside's studio manager and mix engineer, Ewan Lai-Tramuen, and Campside producer, Johnny Kaufman. Our fact-checkers are Sarah Sneath and Callie Hitchcock. Additional research from Alex Yablon. Thanks to Debra Dawn, Hugh Urban, Susan Stieritz, Rianne Eisler,

Sfrana Borkataki-Varma, Phoenix Kalita, Natalia Winkleman, and Miriam Wasser. And thanks to Tracy Elise, who gave Campside permission to use videos she created. The Pat McMahon Show is a production of KAZT-TV. And a special thanks to our operations team. Doug Slaywin, Aaliyah Papes, and Allison Haney. Campside Media's executive producers are Josh Dean, Vanessa Gregoriotis, Adam Hoff, and Matt Scher. If you enjoyed Mystic Mother, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.