The Binge Crimes: Lady Mafia - Mystic Mother | 7. The Verdict

Episode Date: October 11, 2022

The 48-day trial comes to an end, and the jury reaches a decision. Want the full story? Unlock all episodes of Witnessed: Mystic Mother, ad-free right now by subscribing to The Binge — All Episodes. All at Once. Plus you’ll unlock brand new stories, dropping every month — that’s all episodes, all at once, all ad-free. Just click ‘Subscribe’ on the top of the Witnessed show page on Apple Podcasts or visit GetTheBinge.com to get access wherever you listen. Find out more about The Binge and other podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Just a note before we get started. This episode deals with some sensitive subjects, including sex and sexual assault. Please take care as you listen. Deputy County Attorneys Ed Leiter and Chris Sammons have the home court advantage. In videos of the trial, they look young, but between them they have years of experience, and they have the state of Arizona behind them. Their approach is cut and dry. No chakras, no alters, just evidence. Once the session started, that's obviously where the legality issues kind of kick in in this case. The goddesses or the practitioners would perform usually a one hour, sometimes a 90 minute session.

And they would do what they call whole body healing. She said that there would be a happy ending. And she sort of pointed at me like I was the one that was going to get the happy ending. At the end of the session, what would typically happen before the male would leave is he would leave money at that point. I said $20, you know, for hand release. I tried to give it to her and she pointed at the hands on the counter. It's like a little statue.

And the males were always required to leave the cash in a little statue that they would have in the room and kind of hand out. They had some classes. But in terms of how the goddess temple made money, how they paid the salaries, how they paid the bills, it was through illegal prostitution. At the end of this trial, ladies and gentlemen, the state is going to stand up here and we're going to ask you to render the only reasonable verdict in this case, and that's guilty. While the undercover deals are compelling, some of the recordings are pretty bad quality,

and Tracy could argue that it's unreliable evidence. And all they've got is this cock of a jockeled clown. That's all they've got with a jackhammer sound. That's all I've got to defend myself with is a very bad piece of evidence and an incorrect transcript. The prosecution knows they need more than just detectives to testify. They need to fight goddess with goddess. I was sad for Tracy in a way, but then it would go back to, well, she lied to me. Rebecca Carrara felt Tracy had misled her about the legality of what they were doing.

She had no priors and no history of sex work before the temple. Now she was facing multiple felonies and misdemeanors. And then going to court and all that, then I was scared. Then I was scared. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to do some jail time. And I just kept on thinking, how am I going to fight this? From the start, Rebecca wanted to meet with the prosecution. She had questions for them about her charges and her options. And they had questions for her too. He said, so do you believe in the goddess? Because all the girls are saying the goddess is going to prevail

and the goddess will take care of us and the goddess will get us out of this and all that. So I said, as of now, I'm just a seeker. I'm a seeker of the truth. Do I think the goddess energy is going to get us out of this? No. She was asked to meet with a panel, and she told them what she knew, the good

and the bad. She told them about the happy endings and the donations, and they asked her to be a witness for the state, which meant she would have to testify against Tracy. And Rebecca said, sure. If I went to court and I was telling a lie, I just knew I'd have this big thing on my head going, like a red light or something. Because a lot of times I can't remember a lie. I just, I can't remember a lie. So I just told the truth, and the truth was damaging to the Goddess Temple. Terima kasih telah menonton! ¶¶ From Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment, you're listening to Witnessed, Mystic Mother.

Episode 7, The Verdict. I'm Indra Varma, and in the latest season of The Spy Who, we open the file on Daphne Park, the spy who killed the Prime Minister. As the Belgian Congo gains its independence, Officer Park sets out to build a spy network. Together, they're about to go to new extremes to keep Congo free of communists. Follow The Spy Who now wherever you listen to podcasts. As we heard last time, Tracy's witnesses were mostly friends and family who could speak to her character, her beliefs, and the intention behind her behavior. She's trying to tell a story the jury can understand.

Her story. It's safe to say that creating and offering the priestess path is one of your proudest moments of your career? It's not just proud. It's why I came to the planet, which sounds really sort of grandiose, but it's not just a proud moment. It's the fulfillment of a girl wanting to hear other people say, I think God's female too.

Leiter and Sammons get increasingly frustrated. They've filed tons of motions to preclude Tracy from discussing all sorts of things that are irrelevant to the case. But she often finds a way to bring them up anyway. So they're constantly asking the jury to ignore things they've heard. And the trial is dragging on because there's a lot of ground to cover and there are a lot of witnesses. Tracy's cross-examination sometimes goes on so long that Judge Stevens threatens to put a time limit on her. Lighter and Salmon

suggest that the judge is being too soft on Tracy, and that she's preventing them from getting a fair trial. Judge, is there any way to keep Ms. Elise from asking improper questions? Because we keep objecting, and she just asks it until it comes out some way or another. She clearly understands that this is not relevant. We object over and over and over and over. I know you don't understand, but she does it anyways, Judge. It's incredibly disrespectful to the jury. Ms. Elise never answers the question. Judge, I'm asking that she be removed from

representing herself. She cannot follow court orders and she continuously violates your orders and says whatever she wants to say. She doesn't care what the judge tells her to do. She either doesn't, she's either intentionally doing it, or she just doesn't know what she's doing. Either way, Mr. Green should take over representing her. Things get uncomfortably tense a lot, and the judge is constantly playing referee. You thought a workaround on a prostitution statute was claiming your attorney. Ultimately, that's what this is about, isn't it, Ms. Elise? No, Mr. Leiter. It's about how you're not applying the Constitution,

when it's your duty to do so. It's your duty to do so. All right, we are going to take the noon recess. Ladies and gentlemen, please return at 1.30. 1.30, please remember the admonition. The prosecution never actually denies Tracy's beliefs. In fact, they say, whatever. Call it a temple, call it a church, it doesn't matter, because religious freedom doesn't allow you to break the law.

And they're essentially trying to hinge their entire case on prostitution. So if they can convince the jury that that's what was happening at the temple, all of Tracy's other charges, the money laundering, racketeering, illegal enterprise, will follow. One of their witnesses is Detective Amber Campbell, who co-led the investigation of the temple. But they don't jump into that at first. Instead, they start with her extensive experience

as a detective, and they ask her to break down what she typically looks for during an investigation of an illegal enterprise. When a female undercover goes into a business, the individuals don't generally suspect that we're undercover officers and are usually very forthcoming with information about how the price split is going to work, how much we're supposed to charge for certain sex acts, how much money goes back to the business. One of the most important things

for a vice enforcement detective is to establish who's in control of that business, who's in charge, who's doing the hiring. Those are all very important when you're working with enterprise cases because ultimately you have to establish in the end, if you determine it's a house of prostitution, you have to establish who's responsible for that crime.

There was never any question about who was in charge at the temple. The gatekeepers ran the day-to-day, but Tracy approved the hiring of every single goddess. One goddess, who went by the name Bridget, said that at first she felt encouraged by Tracy. She really built me up. You know, she said that she saw a light inside of me that was waiting to break out. She saw a wounded little girl that was waiting to break out and that she was going to help me find my voice. But that's not what happened for her. Bridget told a story about how she had enrolled in a work-study program at the temple,

but she kept getting pulled out of classes to do sessions. I was standing outside of the door and Janet was taking calls. program at the temple, but she kept getting pulled out of classes to do sessions. I was standing outside of the door and Janet was taking calls. And, um, sorry, go. Um, I heard her say, Bridget, and talk about, yeah, she's blonde, busty. And then I heard her say, no, no, we don't provide condoms. We have to bring those. And so that really, really, really upset me. I felt sold in that moment. In case you missed that, Bridget said she felt sold.

I went to the back and I cried. I think it boils down to the fact that a woman can't be building up another woman and offering her into prostitution. Bridget was one of several goddesses who testified against Tracy. But the state also had detailed statements from police interviews with goddesses and gatekeepers after their arrests. And the more than 30 plea deals secured by the state before trial can also be used as evidence that prostitution not only occurred, but that it was the temple's main reason for being. The majority of those that attended or that came into the temple came in with the belief that they would be receiving some sexual act as a result of their time in temple. And along with that, the expectation from the printed amount of money that is listed in the back page ad, the expectation would be $204 for that hour in the transformation chamber or in the session, correct? Correct. Did you not learn that many of the goddesses understood a specific expectation from the people who ran the goddess temple that they were to give a release or the man were that the practitioners were topless at a minimum and that a release, meaning an orgasm, was ejaculation was to occur.

When the prosecution calls Rebecca to the stand, they ask her why. Since she had no background in sex work, why did she perform sexual acts in her sessions? And she testifies that the expectation was made clear to her by a gatekeeper that every seeker should experience a release at minimum. Was this religious to you, Rebecca? I was searching and searching and searching to try to see where the religious aspect, you know, I was just, I wanted to believe. However, if this thing was legal, in my mind, I was thinking they would have temples everywhere. They also ask about her first time meeting Tracy. Yeah. Is Ms. Elise currently in the courtroom?

Yes, she is. She's on the left side of the courtroom. She has a brown dress with some pink flowers on it. Rebecca says Tracy no longer had that same glow she had when they first met. She looked a lot smaller. Like, she wasn't as big and bright as she used to be, you know? She just looked smaller. Cross-examination. You just had a birthday. Yes. We're both Sagittarius. We used to celebrate that at Temple. There was a lot of Sagittarius women there, wasn't there?

Yes, there was. There was. Tracy cross-examines Rebecca over the course of two days. I just told the truth, and I didn't feel ashamed. I didn't feel inadequate, or she didn't intimidate me. I thought it would be weird and intimidating, but it wasn't. It just wasn't, for some reason. Did you feel like you had any choice to not take the plea?

Did you feel there was another option? I just took the plea because I just knew it would be the right thing to do for myself. Because I couldn't go in and fight this because I had to tell the truth. And that moment when I got arrested, I knew that my truth was the wrong truth. It wasn't the law.

It was breaking the law. It was breaking the law. Did you feel that you had just been given a fee for having sex, or did you feel that you'd been given a donation for an experience in the temple? Sometimes I had both. So there were times when you felt empowered, and there were times when you weren't so sure. Yeah, there were times I felt empowered, sometimes I felt disempowered. Like something was taken away from me. Then at one point, the judge reads out questions from the jury. Did you feel manipulated by Tracy Elise to perform sexual acts for money for a donation?

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It's fair to say he's a complex and controversial character. Almost 150 years since his birth, how does his legacy hold up today? Follow Legacy Now wherever you get your podcasts. Or binge entire seasons early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Did you feel manipulated by Tracey Elise to perform sexual acts for money or a donation? No. Did you feel forced by Tracy Elise to perform sexual acts for money or a donation? No. Did you feel coerced by Tracy Elise to perform sexual acts for money or a donation?

Yes. Tracy claims that the only thing goddesses were coerced into was taking a plea. And that at the temple, they were empowered, happy, and there by choice. She feels the state is unfairly characterizing them as victims. I don't even understand why they're trying to shut my religion down. I actually don't. I know for a fact there's no harms. The victims they've named are my people, who look terrible, by the way, compared to how they looked in Temple.

You saw those pictures. Those women were happy. They'd been shamed for sexuality in their life. Now they found this place that uplifted them for what they learned. And they said, yes, this damage that happened to you can now be turned into a gift for others. These women were happy. But yet the state characterizes all women who do this type of work as victims. I have never harmed a soul, nor has anyone ever harmed a soul. We've never been a harm to society. We've only served to help. The question of who is the victim in this case comes up a lot.

Tracy constantly implies that she's the one being attacked. It can be confusing for the jury, and there's a lot to keep track of. And both sides agree that it would be clarifying to at least instruct the jury on the definition of terms like prostitution, pandering, and illegal enterprise. But Tracy proposes taking it a step further by explaining to the jury why prostitution is illegal in the first place. Tracy wants to show the jury that none of the harms often associated with prostitution,

like STDs or trafficking, occurred at the temple. But the judge says that's not relevant. I want to show time and again that I never had any STD issues, I never had any coercion-pimping issues, and I never had any cluster crimes. I think that matters. It comes to my character. It comes to the fact I did read that law.

I never set out to be a law-breaking institution. It may be relevant. It may be, Your Honor. Hold on. I have a question. Ms. Elise, Ms. Elise, take a deep breath. I know you're upset. Have a seat for a moment. Lucky for Tracy, the jury isn't present for this outburst. But clearly, this is really important to her because she's trying to show that she's always been mindful and careful and that she has good intentions. She never meant to hurt anyone. At one point, her son Daniel testifies that growing up, Tracy would often bring home strangers in need for dinner and sometimes let them stay. The temple was meant to be an extension of that kind of work.

But some of the state's witnesses testified that people were harmed at the temple, even if that wasn't Tracy's intention. Many of the goddesses were survivors of abuse, and some said they hadn't been given the training or the tools to heal themselves, let alone others. Many of them didn they needed help. And the support that they were seeking was not there. This is a woman who was a gatekeeper at the temple, someone who would screen calls and book appointments. Was it your experience that many, before they were able to get any help they were in doing sessions correct but weren't all the women there choosing to be practitioners and pretty excited about it they were excited because of the end results but they needed you

tracy they needed you to be there for them. Were we trying to do something really, really hard at the Phoenix Goddess Temple? Bring sexual healing in a world that doesn't really accept that? It wasn't that it was hard. It was that the practitioners were, some were already traumatized. So for them to be able to help someone else while they are broken, they do more damage than to heal. That's one of the issues that we have in that the expectations needed to be helped first. Like a surgeon's not going to go into surgery doing it when they're just very graduating from school. Some of the goddesses did receive what they were told was deep core healing

for survivors of sexual trauma from a man named Wayne Clayton. Clayton was the director of the temple's School of One. We heard about his session with Rebecca in the New Times article, and he was one of the people arrested during the raid of the temple. In an interview with police after his arrest, Clayton said he wasn't paid by Tracy and didn't make money from seeker sessions. Clayton, who's not a licensed therapist, received donations from his own healing sessions,

which involved reenacting abuse. He denied that his methods involved sexual acts. But when Tracy questions Nicole, who's there testifying on her behalf, Nicole says something Tracy wasn't expecting. And were you ever coerced to do anything at Temple? person I could name if you'd like and he took me into what I thought were healing sessions for me and

I've had a lot of I had a bad experience and I've had a lot of really difficult emotions in regards to what occurred and I don't hold the temple responsible i hold him responsible um i didn't know anything about this would you like to say speak to it more or we spent probably six hours in the red ray room and he tried attempted to address previous sexual abuse that I had been through

by repeating those acts with me. And that didn't serve to help or heal me in any way, but at that point I felt pressured by him. He continued to reassure me and say that everything was fine, that it was normal. Tracy seems taken aback. She comments to Ben, it's okay. I'm about the truth coming out. I didn't know, and it's okay. I'm about the truth coming out, Ben. I'll come back to that. I can hear it. It's insane. You know what, Ben?

I'm not in my body. And it is hard to do what I'm doing. And I'm listening to her. And these women are all using this to say what they want to say. They're all using this platform to say what they want to say. Which I think

is pretty good. This isn't the first time allegations of assault have come up Which I think is pretty good. You're still here, actually. This isn't the first time allegations of assault have come up during the trial. There's also discussion of Tara allegedly being assaulted by a seeker. And it's hard to imagine that all of this didn't impact the jury. During the trial, Leiter says Clayton wasn't helping victims. He was re-victimizing them, based on the allegations. But he was never charged with sexual assault, and he couldn't be reached for comment.

He pleaded guilty to illegal enterprise in 2013, and he was sentenced to just one year of unsupervised probation. His sentence was reduced in exchange for his testimony against Tracy, even though the state never called him as a witness. And he also received permission to move to Chicago. The prosecution suggests that even if Tracy didn't personally commit every single crime that occurred at the temple, she's still responsible because it all flowed from her. The trial spread across nearly four months. Tracy is the last witness. For three days, she gets to say a lot of the things she couldn't say when she was doing the questioning. We were accused of being sex therapists without a license. We never claimed to be that. We said we were there as faith healers. So I've multiple times, I've had to make a decision about a person who says I was abused,

but now I feel powerful. And I had to believe those women when they showed up to me, they were showing up shiny. Look at the pictures. These women were pretty happy because the temple took away the shame on what had happened to them. Both sides seemed to be in agreement that Tracy was sincere in her belief and that she was aware of the law. But the prosecution says that Tracy lives in unicorn land where the rules don't to her, and that it doesn't matter what she believed. Even if Tracy thinks what she was doing was legal, what matters is the evidence that she did in fact break the law. At one point, they bring up her second arrest. Ms. Elise, why did you continue to practice while this case was pending?

Well, primarily because you're innocent until proven guilty. Secondly, it's my life's calling. I thought to myself, if they take this from me, I'm just not sure what I'm supposed to do on the planet. In one final Hail Mary, the day before closing arguments, Tracy files a motion to dismiss. She's hoping that in light of everything Judge Stevens has heard about her religious beliefs,

that the judge will reconsider whether a religious defense applies and throw out the case. This is Tracy turning the wheel in the game of chicken. Well, Your Honor, I just would, I guess, what an education. And i really want to i've been i've been disrespectful with my energy and my words at times and i apologize and um i have not yet learned how to stay in my heart while i'm being attacked

and i'm disappointed in myself for that. So, Your Honor, I would just ask that if the laws exist on the books in the state of Arizona, Constitution and statutory law, that would relieve me of these charges and allow me to continue with my next stage of my journey as a priestess, then I would ask sincerely, humbly, prayerfully that you would apply those laws rather than let this go to jury. Her motion is denied. Tracy's fate is in the hands of the jury. Despite everything,

Tracy says she still believes in the system and in humanity. She thinks she's put up a reasonable doubt, and she has one last chance to convince them not to convict her. That's after the break. You know what's great about ambition? You can't see it. Some things look ambitious, but looks can be deceiving. For example, a runner could be training for a marathon, or they could be late for the bus. You never know.

Ambition is on the inside. So that road trip bucket list? Get after it. Drive your ambition. Mitsubishi Motors. Welcome to Origins with me, Kush Jumbo. The show where the biggest names in entertainment tell me the stories that made them who they are today. Origins is a conversation about my guests' early inspirations and growing up. Guests this season include Dame Anna Wintour, Poppy Delevingne, Pete Capaldi and Golda Rushavelle, aka Queen Charlotte in Bridgerton. I only kind of discovered my sexuality when I went to drama school. Join me every week to hear where it all began. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is Origins with Kush Jumbo. In a Facebook video, Tracy says she's just hours away from giving the impromptu speech of her life.

She's wearing rainbow earrings, the colors of the chakras, and a dress that belonged to her co-founder, Tamara Brousseau. Her voice is shaky, like she's holding back tears. She says, I wish I could feel beautiful. I wish I could feel forgiving. I wish I could feel unconditional love. And I do, to some extent. She says she's not afraid of going to prison, but she would be sad if she couldn't be with her children or share her gifts from inside the state of Arizona women's prison. All right, please be seated. The record will show the presence of the jury, the defendant, and counsel. All right, this is the time for closing arguments. The prosecution goes first. We have heard in this trial from goddesses, a mother priestess, a guru, a reality TV star, a porn star, two alien aficionados, an Indian medicine man, and one naked life coach.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your service. I don't typically do that in closing arguments, but I'm making an exception in this case. Because like I said, this is not your standard case. I get to do something that I've been waiting four months to do. I get to respond. I get to address some of the things that she sent our way during the course of this trial. Because as I'm going to explain to you ladies and gentlemen in a few minutes, and this may surprise you based on what you've heard over the course of the last four months, there is absolutely no legal protection, no religious protection for what was

happening at the Phoenix Goddestown. Now, the state doesn't have a shrine to show you. We don't have tarot cards. I'm not going to do a song or dance. But what the state has and what we submit to you is those stubborn things, those things that Miss Elise wants you to avoid, not to look at, and those are the facts that you have heard in this case. I said this at opening statement, ladies and gentlemen.

They're just saying if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it swims like a duck, it's probably a duck. This place is a problem. What she's asking again is for notification. She's asking for you to say, you know what, I feel bad for her. She got up in here, she cried. I feel bad for her. But you're asking for dispassion. Only when you focus on the evidence.

Then it's Tracy's turn. I hardly know where to begin with this because I have no criminal intent. And in fact, when you look at everything, you're going to see that at the temple, we were bravely attempting to stand in society while we were getting judged, while we were getting seriously judged and misunderstood, please consider my motive. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh.

Please consider my motive. Please. I love what I was doing, and I love what we were doing, and that's my motive, to make the world a better place through education and touch and especially the sacred feminine, and especially men who want to see more of the sacred feminine. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm a priestess. I am not a prostitute. Thank you very much, and I thank you for spending this time. It's been a long journey. You took four months out of your life. That's just huge. And regardless of what happens, I trust. You should know that I,

how I do my walk as a priestess is I just trust. I just trust. That's all I can do. The case is now submitted to you for decision. When you go to the jury room, you will choose a four-person. All that's left is for the jury to decide. While they're deliberating, Tracy and her family wait together. And they invited Miriam to join them. There were just like colorful scarves decorating the walls and the windows. There were a lot of lights everywhere, a lot of candles, Christmas lights. Tracy and her kids had rented an apartment near the courthouse

that was their home base throughout the trial. There was a little sign on the counter, I remember, that said, exonerate Tracy Elise, next to a burned candle, so they kept a candle going by it. There were little altars over all sorts of surfaces. So tables, windowsills, you know, shells, Buddha statues. There was a small waterfall, a big dream catcher on the wall. They had made this place home. I'd say it was, there was like a lot of optimism. Like I think people were kind of like, okay, like I just get good feelings.

I think we're going to be okay. They had no idea how long they'd be waiting. So they settled in. And then at 3.30, the phone call came in that the jury had decided. And, you know, I have in my notes that Sylvia just goes like, holy shit, that was fast. That was so fast. And Judy, Tracy's mom, just says, I don't know if I can do this right now. And she went out to the porch and started crying and we could hear her sobbing inside.

It was just a lot of like frantic and chaotic energy. But Tracy was really calm. So then we get back into the courtroom and... Please be seated. The record will show the presence of the jury, the defendant, and counsel. Has the jury reached a verdict? Yes.

Please hand the verdict forms to the bailiff. I don't know what I was expecting, that there would be some, like, big statement from the judge or something, but, like, bam the the verdicts just start getting read in the superior court of the state of arizona in and for the county of maricopa state of arizona versus tracy elite verdict count one we the jury duly impounded and sworn in the above entitled action upon our oaths do find the defendant as the count one

conspiracy to commit illegal control of an enterprise, honored between the first day of January 2010 and the sixth day of September 2011, guilty. After the first guilty one, everyone gets upset, right? You can kind of tell the way that this is going to go. Count two, guilty. Tracy just turns and mouths to Sylvia, I'm going to be okay. And they're all crying. Ben comes over and the three of them just kind of stand there in an embrace. And you can hear Tracy just saying like, honey, it's going to be okay.

Like we're going to start right back up. Count four. We, the jury, duly impaneled and sworn in the above entitled action upon our oath. Guilty. Count nine. We, the jury, duly impaneled and sworn in the above entitled action upon our oath, guilty. Count nine. We, the jury, duly impaneled this morning the above entitled action upon our oath. Tracy was convicted of 22 counts on March 2nd, 2016,

nearly five years after the raid. It was just like a big balloon pop, kind of, where you're like, whoa, wait, what? That all just happened? Tracy's in shock. Your Honor, I obviously're like, whoa, wait, what? That all just happened? Tracy's in shock. Your Honor, I obviously didn't expect this, but it was a very complex case. Many things were not the jury didn't get to hear or see. That may have been a mistake on my part, but I also, I'm just walking in spirit.

After the verdict is read, they take her to jail. I just remember she had her hands in, like, a prayer position in handcuffs. Yep, and they lead her out. One of the supporters just yelled out, like, Tracy, follow the goddess. And someone else said, don't forget, just don't forget why we're doing this. And they just kind of take her through the doors, and that's that. But for Tracy, it's not over. Your Honor, no matter what you do in this court,

I vow to you with everything in my being, I will pursue this to the Supreme Court. I will do it if I'm in prison. I will do it if I'm in prison. I will do it if I'm out. Next time on Witnessed, Mystic Mother. Arizona versus Tracy Elise. This is the time to suffer sentencing. Ms. Elise wanted to make this a worldwide movement.

She is going to continue to do this because she frankly has no respect for this court or the criminal justice system. It specifically said, this is no more a church than Cuba is fantasy island. He does not have a right to say that. This was a hate crime and there are superseding laws which protect what I claim is sacred. I felt ashamed of my work and my spiritual practice. I abandoned it in order to gain the acceptance of some people. what I claim is sacred. I felt ashamed of my work and my spiritual practice. I abandoned it in order to gain the acceptance of some people. I cannot pick up a gun and protect the Constitution,

but I can stand here in a at RAINN.org. That's R-A-I-N-N.org. Or call their 24-7 confidential phone line at 1-800-656-4673. You hear there's no such thing as the perfect murder. Well, that's not true. Because I had a lot of perfect murders. In episode 7 of Denise Didn't Come Home, I finally talk to this guy. Nobody knew what happened to her.

Even the police, they didn't have no idea. I'm the only one that knew exactly what happened. The man who says he murdered Denise Velasca. And I find out what really happened that terrible night. The only two people that know what happened that night is Denise and him. He is the one that has answers, believable or not. Now, one of the

top series on Apple Podcasts, Denise Didn't Come Home. In another week, you can listen to all the episodes wherever you get your podcasts. This call is from an inmate at a New Jersey state prison. Hey, I have some pretty important questions for you. I can't wait.

Witnessed Mystic Mother is a production of Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment. It's hosted and created by me, Katie Hennick. And me, Leah Hennick. This series was reported by Sarah Ventry and written by Sarah Ventry and Emily Martinez. Additional reporting by Katie and Leah Hennick. Sarah Ventry is our managing producer. Our story editor and executive producer is Emily Martinez.

Additional editing by Mike Meyer. Produced by Katie and Leah Hennick. Associate producer, Sydney Fleischman. Additional production assistance from Mo Laborde and Ron Warner.

A huge thank you to Rebecca Ross, our legal researcher. Our theme song was composed by Betsy Gans and Chris Norby and performed by Betsy Gans and Chris Norby and performed by Betsy Gans, Chris Norby, and John Rauhaus. It was recorded and mixed by Michael Krasner

and mastered by Chris Norby. The series was sound designed and mixed by Claire Mullen. Our recording engineers are Mike DeLay and Gavin Rain at Real Voice LA. Special thanks to Campside's studio manager and mix engineer, Iwin Lai-Tramiwin, and Campside producer, Johnny Kaufman. Our fact-checkers are Sarah Sneath and Callie Hitchcock. Additional research from Alex Yablon. Thanks to Deborah Dawn, Hugh Urban, Susan Stieritz, Rianne Eisler, Sfrana Borkataki-Varma, Phoenix Kalita, Natalia Winkleman, and Miriam Wasser. And thanks to Tracy Elise, who gave Campside permission to use videos she created.

The Pat McMahon Show is a production of KAZT-TV. And a special thanks to our operations team, Doug Slaywin, Aaliyah Papes, and Allison Haney. Campside Media's executive producers are Josh Dean, Vanessa Gregoriotis, Adam Hoff, and Matt Scher. If you enjoyed Mystic Mother, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts.