The Binge Crimes: Night Shift - Fatal Fantasy | 4. The Springtime War

Episode Date: March 23, 2026

urns out, the leader — whom they call the Lord of Chaos — and creator of the Underworld game, directs players to fight a fatal battle against their enemies. One man finds it hard to tell fantasy f...rom reality, with frightening consequences. Binge all episodes of Fatal Fantasy ad-free today by subscribing to The Binge. Visit The Binge on Apple Podcasts and hit ‘subscribe’ or visit GetTheBinge.com to get access. From serial killer nurses to psychic scammers – The Binge is your home for true crime stories that pull you in and never let go. Join our free newsletter at Patreon.com/TheBinge. The Binge – feed your true crime obsession. Fatal Fantasy is brought to you by Sony Music Entertainment and M. Williams Phelps LLC. Find out more about The Binge and other podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Starting point is 00:00:00 When West Jet first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion, inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to Westjetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. Listen to all episodes of Fatal Fantasy ad free right now by subscribing to The Big. Visit The Binge channel on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe at the top of the page or visit getthebinge.com to get access wherever you listen.
Starting point is 00:00:46 The Binge. Feed your true crime obsession. The binge. Hello, this is a prepaid call from. I am the Kyle. An inmate at Virginia Department of Corrections, Buckingham, Correctional. To accept this call, class zero. To refuse this call, hang up or press.
Starting point is 00:01:14 Once he was locked up, Kyle Ubert began calling and talking me through his version of what happened. It's more or less what he also confessed to Louding County investigators. Incidentally, Kyle's signature way of introducing himself, as you heard, I am the Kyle, is his rather narcissistic way of saying, there is only one Kyle in this world and that he is that person. By December 12, 2001, Kyle, his best friend, Mike Fole, and Mike's girlfriend, Katie Inglis, were in custody. Kyle was the last of the three to be picked up by investigators and hadn't revealed a whole lot
Starting point is 00:02:00 about what happened that night. Then, as I mentioned in the last episode, Katie decided to fully co-operative. and cut a deal, which kind of pissed Kyle off. Because of the way she talked and the way she made out like she and Michael knew everything, and this is one of the things I wanted to get clear on the record. This is one of the things I really want you to make sure that you err for people. First thing she did when she found out she was in trouble, she made it deal with people.
Starting point is 00:02:28 So she's got the incentives to come up with whatever bullshit that is not convincing to them to secure their case so that she doesn't get any fucking time. Talking to investigators, Katie said on that night, Kyle was dressed in his signature. black trench coat with a samurai sword tucked in a scabbard attached to his hip and that the three had driven to the house but that kyle approached the schwartz's front door by himself katy went on to say his motive partly had to do with his concerns about clara's volatile relationship with her father apparently both kyle and mike were convinced that dr schwartz was hurting his daughter To deal with it, Clara had written in her father as the villain in the underworld game.
Starting point is 00:03:17 An arch nemesis, they all called the OG or old guy. I asked Associated Press journalist Heather Greenfield about this. So she referred to him both in the role-playing games and in real life as the old guy. But, I mean, I think that's typically nicknames like that are meant to dehumanize people, unfortunately. That Clara made him the villain of her game brought up a lot of questions about her actual relationship with her dad. It sounded like they had a lot of conflict.
Starting point is 00:03:53 There was a lot of yelling back and forth. If you look at both the relatives and what she was telling her friends, it sounded like kind of a higher level than the average trouble between a teenager and their parent. Kyle told me one of the reasons he was so moving, by Clara's complaints about her father was that he also had a bad relationship with his father, whom he accused of bullying and abuse. Here's what Kyle told investigators really happened.
Starting point is 00:04:26 It began with what Mike, Katie, and Kyle referred to as an event. Clara had named the Springtime War, a major narrative plot point in the underworld game. I remember a lot of cryptic references to people that I imagine were part of the game. Like, so-and-so will be keeping a closer eye on so-and-so. This one might be an agent for the other side. By agent, Kyle took it to mean
Starting point is 00:04:55 a fictional bad guy within the game. At this time, Kyle was struggling to differentiate fantasy from reality. He'd long suffered from mental illness and had been in and out of group homes. The underworld game was a place where he could be that night in shining armor he'd always aspired to be, and also the kind of bomb he'd long been for his younger sister
Starting point is 00:05:22 in the face of a difficult father. When Clara asked Kyle to play The Underworld, a game that had names and places mirroring actual life, he wasn't totally sure anymore what was really. real and what was fantasy. What was clear was how Kyle desperately wanted to be the kind of Prince Charming to swoop in and save the princess, the guy who helped people in need, the hero. When he met Clara, Kyle already had the samurai sword, he bought the day after he was emancipated. She knew he wore that sword on his hip 24-7 and was eager to use.
Starting point is 00:06:07 use it. Befriending Clara and the others, Kyle told me, solidified his purpose in life. He said not long after they met, Clara took him out to dinner one night, not fast food, but an entree at a sit-down restaurant. During dinner, she'd bend his ear about her troubles. That's me what I wanted to eat. I'm used to spending, you know, $2 on, you know, McDonald's or something and, you know, thinking I'm lucky. And here we are, there was. to offer to foot the bill and I'm like trying to be polite. As they waited for their meals, Clara brought up her father, specifically how much she loathed the guy. Then her steak arrived at the table. And something weird happened.
Starting point is 00:06:59 She took a bite and then she was like, there's something wrong with us. She was convinced that something had had done to it. She wanted it sent back. Poison, she whispered to Kyle, after the waiter. left. My father is a scientist. It would be easy for him to poison me. She had such a hold on Kyle and the others that they actually took her seriously. At one point in November, just weeks before the murder, Clara convinced Kyle to sleep in his tent on the Schwartz property because, according to him, she was scared the OG was going to do something to her that weekend. With Kyle now designated as her protector in the underworld,
Starting point is 00:07:42 he also needed to be there in case Clara called on him. Kyle went along with the game. While out in the woods, Kyle came up with a plan to confront Dr. Schwartz. With Kyle that morning are two of his childhood friends, Sabah and Nicodemus. And what about Sabah and Nicodemus? What are they telling you about it? She's in danger. We don't know what to do at this point.
Starting point is 00:08:10 Saba and Nicodemus began to taunt Kyle. Wake her up. He's hurting her. That convinced Kyle that Clara's father was doing something filthy to her, and he needed to step in and confront the man. So with his sword secured safely and it scabbard on his hip, Kyle took off running toward the Schwartz residence. The knight on the move to rescue the princess.
Starting point is 00:08:35 with Sabah and Nicodemus following close behind. So you, you know, you show up at the door. I mean, what does he say? Uh, this is for saying, you know, what? And now, it's like, yeah, I just got woke up at 7 o'clock in the morning after a week of working from this straight fucking creepy fucker at my door. Yeah, I'm not going to be in the best happy, happy joy, joy moods. Like, I guess he saw him being was like, clearly you're one of her friends, you know,
Starting point is 00:09:06 kind of ideal. But, like, you know, it was more the look that it was more the look anything. I was like, hi, I'm here to, you know, my usual, you know, I'm to Kyle, you know, cheerful self, you know, I'm here to pick up Clara, you know, and it's like, she's still sleep. And then I was like, oh, okay, I guess I'll come back later. Dr. Schwartz stared into Kyle's eyes, a steely gaze, this intense squint, and posed a question that's sword on your hip. What in the hell is that all about? I told my car is right there all my hip where it could be seen.
Starting point is 00:09:40 Sabah and Nicodemus are there at the door with Kyle as well. They are telling him to turn around. Leave. Don't do it. Yeah, they're not feeling good about this. There's a lot of danger here. There's a lot of factors that we can't control. Dr. Schwartz couldn't see Sabah or Nicodemus, however, because, well, after all, they are not real.
Starting point is 00:10:09 Both are voices inside Kyle's head, which he had. listened to, along with many others, since he was six years old. Kyle sometimes gets the help he needs as a diagnosed schizophrenic, like medication, but at this point in his life, he has refused to take his meds. So the voices are very real to him. And right now, Kyle was arguing with those voices over what to do next. What am I doing? How am I doing this?
Starting point is 00:10:44 What is this supposed to be? You know, because I don't know. I mean, in my mind, this was the first real thing I've ever done. I'm actually protecting somebody. Standing in front of Dr. Schwartz, Kyle took a deep breath and realized now is not his moment. He told the good doctor, once again, he'll be back later to pick Clara up. And he left. It's 11 days.
Starting point is 00:11:14 before Kyle will return to confront Dr. Schwartz one final time. My name is M. William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist and the New York Times best-selling author of dozens of true crime books. From Sony Music Entertainment and M. William Phelps LLC, you are listening to Fatal Fantasy. Episode 4, the Springtime War. Can't get enough of the story of Margot Freshwater? Do you need more than the episodes can provide? Real quick, we just launched a free true crime newsletter and community page
Starting point is 00:12:34 to go along with our binge shows, including the crimes of Margo Freshwater, and you can access it at the link in our episode description or at patreon.com slash the bench. You'll get behind the scenes reporting, case updates, and a chance to chat with one of the show's creators and other fans. The newsletter comes out twice a month. It's totally free, and it's where the story continues. I'll see you there. Just hit the link in the description or head to patreon.com slash The Binge.
Starting point is 00:13:02 It's 195, and a British Army major is found floating face down in the dark waters off the Devon coast. His death is written off as an accident. The gangplank hadn't been fixed down. But two weeks later, a stranger will knock on his wife. widow's door and rip her life apart. He said, don't trust your closest family. I'm Eugene Henderson, and this is codename badger, a story of secrecy, espionage, and control. What is true and what's false?
Starting point is 00:13:33 Listen to codename badger, wherever you get your podcasts. As investigators listen to Kyle explain his relationship with Clara Schwartz, they wonder if Kyle is trying to sell her out. So far, all he said is that Clara was a child who had issues with her father, none of which Kyle had any tangible proof of. Investigators asked themselves, why trust his word? What evidence do they have against Clara having anything to do with this plot to kill her father? What they do know is that Kyle might have killed this prominent scientist,
Starting point is 00:14:21 and Clara Schwartz was actually 200 miles away. The investigation into the savage murder of Dr. Robert Schwartz had already taken many turns in its first week. While Kyle had decided to give them a complete confession hinting that Clara Schwartz was also involved, investigators tried figuring out if these three young people acted alone or Clara had prior knowledge of what went down that night. Then, out of nowhere, a new witness stepped forward, blowing this case wide open. Young man, Patrick House, who had dated Clara in August of 2001, came forward to the sheriff's office with information that he had been a participant in this underworld game in which Clara was the Lord of Chaos and the Queen, and that she had been a participant in this underworld game in which Clara was the Lord of Chaos and the Queen, and that she, She often assigned different tasks to members playing the game, and that one of the tasks that was assigned to Patrick was to Tay,
Starting point is 00:15:41 which was Claire's word for kill, the OG, which Claire referred to as either the old guy or the old geezer. I reached out to Patrick for both my book and this podcast, and he showed no interest in talking to me. Patrick was 20 years old, straight-laced, shortly cropped brown hair, clear, pale skin. He came across more as an accountant than a medieval role-playing gamer. Patrick met Clara through Mike after Mike bumped into Patrick inside the office waiting room of a psychiatrist one day in 2000. Later, their paths crossed again at Walmart and they started hanging out.
Starting point is 00:16:29 Clara would tag along. Clara found Patrick a bit odd like her, and they seemed to bond over a shared interest in the gaming world. Patrick once spoke of how he cast a spell that had killed 13 people who were trying to kill him. Reporter Jason Cherkus wrote in a Washington City paper article. When Clara heard that, she realized Patrick was speaking her language. In the underworld game, he had been selected to be the Queen's assassin, long before the group had even met Kyle. When they began playing Clara's underworld game, Patrick viewed it as nothing more than make-believe, of fantasy to deal with the stressors of reality.
Starting point is 00:17:17 But as time went on, Patrick noticed that Clara became more serious whenever she talked about her father. In fact, one day, while speaking to Mike, Patrick said, said, I'm going to kill Clara's father. Clara despised her father and wanted him out of her life forever. And had a good reason, she told Patrick. Here's Detective Greg Locke. Clara claimed that her father was physically and mentally abusing her, and more specifically that it involved me,
Starting point is 00:17:56 steak and that he was poisoning the steak to poison her. Loudoun County investigators had not found any evidence of this whatsoever. Patrick told them that as the Thanksgiving holiday approached, Clara began pressuring him, asking, not hinting anymore for help in getting rid of her father. Knowing her as well as he did, Patrick considered that maybe her comments weren't just part of the fantasy she'd created in the underworld, but that she had actually wanted him to kill her father. Clara sat in her dorm room day after day without leaving.
Starting point is 00:18:42 From her computer, she directed everyone in the game, initiating plot lines she had written, facilitating the ongoing narrative of the underworld through instant messaging. She'd scripted a general narrative in a journal and would then talk through it in person with all of them. But for the most part, she expedited the game via her computer. Patrick showed investigators' emails and instant messages with Clara from earlier in the year. The chatter focused on taking out the OG. Here is one example Patrick shared with Detective Locke. And although I am having an actor read Clara's instant message chats and journal entries,
Starting point is 00:19:30 all of the words you'll hear throughout the podcast are taken directly from Clara's texts. If a guy puts hemlock in a drink and drinks it, will police think it's suicide or murder? There is a pause in the message as Patrick kind of struck by what she just said doesn't answer. So, Clara continues, sensing his concern, perhaps, while trying to reel the comment back in. Odd question. Not sure whether I was imagining something or whether it was a vision. Well, according to modern law, Patrick finally taps back, suicide is murder one.
Starting point is 00:20:16 Does it make a difference? Clara taps back immediately. But suicide, you can't prosecute. That exchange, in all of its darkness, became a turning point for Patrick. So in Patrick's mind, as the game progressed, he believed that Clara was serious about killing the OG, her father. And this was no longer a game. At the time, Patrick placates his girlfriend, suggesting that with all the mental fury the OG has caused her, Clara could make his death look natural. This is Patrick stepping away, realizing she is serious about wanting her father dead.
Starting point is 00:21:16 Clara continues. Okay. Have you found a natural way? I may have, Patrick says. Interested. Go on. No, I am not going to tell you how, Patrick writes back. Okay. Any hints? I am not going to tell you, he says. Okay, guess it's better that I not know. I just wish you'd go away.
Starting point is 00:21:45 I'm so sick of fighting. Days later, after coming up with a new idea, Clara gives Patrick a direct order in the form of a new, underworld narrative she just created. Path, or someone should put a gun to him, tell him to write the note, then put it in the drawer of the desk and point a gun at him while he pours the vial in his milk and drinks it, watches him die and then leaves. Path was Patrick's name in the underworld Clara had come up with.
Starting point is 00:22:22 In her dorm a few days after that instant message exchange, Clara tells Patrick, her father will be from that point on known under a new codename. The Target. She further explains there is now no separation between the underworld OG and the real OG. No more fuzzy lines or ambiguous references. Clara is not the Lord of Chaos asking Path to fulfill his role in the game. She is the girlfriend asking the boyfriend to murder her feet. father.
Starting point is 00:23:01 She no longer appeared to be inside the game. It appeared to be all reality to her by then, Patrick tells Detective Locke. Clara has one final question for Patrick during that specific exchange. When are you going to kill my father? When? Patrick. Patrick has heard enough. He stops messaging with her.
Starting point is 00:23:37 The relationship is over. For investigators, Patrick coming forward changes everything. His story fits with Mike, Katie, and now Kyle's version of events leading up to the night, Dr. Schwartz was murdered. And Clara Schwartz, the doctor's own daughter, now becomes their number one mark as the mastermind behind Dr. Schwartz's. murder. Jacqueline Furland Smith, a 40-year-old former Canadian military trainer, moves to Costa Rica to follow her dreams, but in the summer of 2021, vanishes without a trace.
Starting point is 00:24:30 How can a woman just go missing and us put out all that effort to find her, and she's still missing? I'm David Ridgeon, and this is Someone Knows Something, Season 10, the Jacqueline Furlin Smith case. Available now on CBC Listen and wherever you get your podcast. Podcasts. One Plus One equals more of the greatest stories. Hulu on Disney Plus.
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Starting point is 00:25:21 investigators' face is that all of these people knew one another. And so, at least in theory, they could be ganging up on someone they now disliked for whatever reason. Or they all just felt like killing someone and chose Clara's father. But Patrick House coming forward entirely changed the narrative. We also found that once Patrick House had somewhat involved, distanced himself from Clara, and she later met Kyle Holbert in October, that she started telling Kyle the same things that she had been telling Patrick House in the sense that her
Starting point is 00:26:07 father was trying to poison her, he was physically abusive, he was mentally abusive, again, unfounded. What it looks like is that when Patrick House retreated and ran from Clara the moment he realized this was no damn fantasy. Clara simply found another stooge and Kyle and used Kyle's insecurities and mental illness to manipulate him. This fit completely into own kind of fantasy world that I lived in. I think she recognized what was going on with me, and she fed into it because it worked for her.
Starting point is 00:26:50 She had made a comment to Katie, and it was one of those cryptic comments is like, I told you the one, you know, he would be coming. Like, it had been given to her to know that they would send somebody into her circle. And that he turned out to be me. From there, Clara started telling Kyle the OG would sneak into her room when she was at home
Starting point is 00:27:15 and quote, finger her. Never taking it any further than that sexually. Then she made it seem like her father was a pedophile who regularly downloaded child pornography, both allegations factually disproven by law enforcement, and I need to say in no way true. By then, Kyle had told Clara that he had been sexually abused himself, so her allegations enraged Kyle. He felt for her and had no idea she was lying. One night, after Clara showed Kyle several journal entries in which she describes in graphic detail, the alleged sexual abuse, Kyle slammed the journal shut and proclaimed,
Starting point is 00:28:03 I'll protect you. They were no longer playing a game. This was for real. After Patrick House came forward, Detective Locke went back to Katie Inglis and asked her additional questions. Katie tells them about a conversation she had with Clara just. a few days before the murder. I just wish he'd leave me alone and let me live my life, Clara tells Katie. I wish he was dead.
Starting point is 00:28:36 Katie doesn't know what to say. Clara then tosses out, I stand to inherit a third of a million dollars. But I can only get it after he's dead. By December 6, 2001, just two days before the murder, Clara amped up the urgency to get it done. She called Kyle. You need to take care of this, she said. Now.
Starting point is 00:29:04 And she tells me, I just had a fight with my, you know, dad, the OG, to how she said it. He told me that when we go to the Virgin Islands for Christmas vacation, he was going to make sure I didn't come back. The investigators would be able to confirm that Dr. Schwartz had reservations for all of his kids and himself to spend Christmas in the Virgin Islands. She's destroyed, and this is just, as you imagine, hitting all the right buttons for me is, you know, oh my God, I have to protect her. And, you know, she tells me I have to protect her. I can't let him hurt her.
Starting point is 00:29:41 Remember those being her words, you know, you have to protect me, Kyle. You can't let him hurt me. When she hangs up, I put on a phone, and I'm sitting there trying to figure out, okay, this is just escalators for. from abuse to threats of actual bodily harm. I'm not sure what to do. Part of me wants to go over there right then and have it out with him. Michael and I and Katie plan to get together that weekend, so I figured, well, at the very least I can go there.
Starting point is 00:30:11 And if he's actually this kind of bully, if I go there and I intimidate him and I threaten him to leave her alone, that somebody knows what's going on, then he'll leave her alone. A turning point comes. Kyle explains to Clara that he needs money. Okay, she says how much? $60. Clara herself admitted this early in the investigation.
Starting point is 00:30:38 Clara told me about the $60 check that she had overnighted to Kyle Holbert. And I inquired what the check was for. and she set a phone card. But on further elaboration, it came out that it was also for gloves and a do-rag. Clara overnighted a check written out to Kyle along with a note. Handwritten, in all caps, what's needed and expected. Kyle was firm about saying he never asked Clara for money to kill her father. After all, $60 is not exactly a murder-for-hire number.
Starting point is 00:31:23 He claimed he told Clara the money was a payment for a porn site he liked. I've been involved in true crime for over 26 years. Kyle can tell me all day long the money wasn't a payment going toward the murder. But come on, Clara over-nighted the check, and they cashed it the day before the murder. What is the talk among you and Katie and Mike? Nothing really. I mean, I don't remember being much of any conversation about anything in particular. I knew I needed to go to the Schwartzest place to get her notebooks.
Starting point is 00:32:09 Notebooks? Money for a porn site? How much are these people really believing what they are telling themselves? And in turn, telling the cops. In my opinion, they knew exactly what was going on here, all three of them. She told you you need to go get my books at the house? It was, I knew that I wanted to go, I wanted to try to confront him. That statement, I think, tells us Kyle knew exactly why he was headed to Dr. Schwartz's house on the night of December 8th.
Starting point is 00:32:56 Mike Foal was easy prey for investigators. All they had to do was keep a boot on his throat, dangle life behind bars, or possibly with the potential murder for hire aspect now involved, a death sentence. If they did all of that, Mike would tell them everything. Kyle explained to investigators that he told Mike
Starting point is 00:33:21 Clara had instructed him to go to the house to grab her notebooks. Mike instead told Locke he was fully, aware of what was about to go down, putting it into kind of a bizarre, almost childish manner, telling Locke, Kyle went up to Schwartz's house. I stayed outside the house and prayed for Mr. Schwartz's soul to go to heaven. You can only get to heaven if you're dead. Mike knew. Meet up with us, Katie and Michael. I have to go here and I played out the conversation in my head a billion times. You know, like I just, every possible permutation that I can think of
Starting point is 00:34:06 of how that conversation would go. It's raining as they head to Schwartz's house in Mike's car. Important to note, I think, is that Clara is at James Madison University in her dorm alone. It wasn't pouring down rain like in thunder like a good horror movie, should be, but it was overcast and sprinkling throughout the day. we're up to that night and the only thing I've gotten concrete in my head is
Starting point is 00:34:34 I have to go here, I have to confront him, he needs to know that somebody knows what's going on and that he can't get away with it and I know it's a damning statement but it's truth. I did not go there to kill him. I went there to confront him but there was parts of me that knew
Starting point is 00:34:47 that like if it came down to it you know her life or his there was no contest. Katie, riding shotgun with Mike driving and Kyle in the back seat approach Schwartz's driveway. Kyle tells Mike to stop. It's a long driveway.
Starting point is 00:35:11 Kyle insists Mike and Katie wait inside the car there near the road. I'll walk the rest of the way, he tells them. As Kyle sits, with his hand on the door handle, preparing to step out and walk down the driveway, his mind, racist. I don't know how to describe you this sense of not knowing. It's like you're standing in the doorway. You're in the light, and the room on the other side is pitch black.
Starting point is 00:35:40 You don't even know there's a floor there. Kyle claims several voices return in this moment. Voices now sending him warnings. The best I can say is in hindsight, I guess sobbing is something I didn't. He was picking up on things that I wasn't paying attention to. Holes and her story, the flaws in the way things were going, just how perfectly this all fit together. Kyle tells Mike and Katie he'll be right back.
Starting point is 00:36:10 And then he begins walking down the driveway, placing one hand on his sword attached to his hip, and the other blocking the driving rein hitting his face. Then he reaches Dr. Schwartz's door and knocks. We're here now. We're at the night. This is where it all happens. This is where I cross a lot.
Starting point is 00:36:35 line that can't be on cost. You know, this is for better for worse. This is my Rubicon. After this night, my life is going to be defined in two terms. Before this, then after this. Next time on Fatal Fantasy. As Kyle Yulbert steps inside Dr. Schwartz's house, we hear him describe in great detail what took place.
Starting point is 00:37:15 And he just smiles at me. I'm going to die here tonight. Catch him with an elbow. I taste blood. As he is fighting with Schwartz, the vampire Kyle claims to be seems to come out. Clara was fighting. And then, a shocking shift in the investigation.
Starting point is 00:37:45 Jesus' disciples are extreme followers. They drank his blood and ate his flesh, which made them all vampires and cannibals. I look at satanic colts and see the future, bright and promising. Don't want to wait for that next episode. You don't have to. Unlock all episodes of fatal fantasy
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Starting point is 00:38:38 Get binge access to new stories on the first of every month. Check out the binge channel page on Apple Podcasts or getthebinge.com to learn more. Fatal Fantasy is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and M. William Phelps, LLC. Written and executive produced by me. From Sony Music Entertainment, the executive producers are Jonathan Hirsch
Starting point is 00:39:10 and Catherine St. Louis, Our production manager is Samantha Allison. Jeremy Adair is my senior producer and script consultant. Matt Russell, my sound engineer. I use epidemic sound for music and SFX. He was a young Marine. She didn't care about convention. They made a life together.
Starting point is 00:39:44 Then one night, the Marine died. And then the death investigation took a wild, unexpected, and utterly bizarre turn. I'm Josh Banquowitz, and this is Trace of Suspicion, an all-new podcast from Dateline. Search Trace of Suspicion to start listening now.

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