The Bobby Bones Show - AMY: Gaslighting, Trauma Bonding & Other Things That Got Popular on Instagram

Episode Date: July 13, 2025

Amy and Kat are feeling tired and in need of a reset. Enter: Sky Journaling! It’s a creative exercise that blends mindfulness with doodling and ends in some very honest cloud-inspired poems. They also break down the difference between pop psychology vs actual psychology, unpacking commonly used (especially on social media) terms like trauma bonding, gaslighting, and being triggered. And finally, inspired by a school activity Amy’s son is doing, they invite you to “find a win” (big or small) because sometimes, showing up at all is the victory.   If you do the Sky Journaling homework assignment and you don’t mind if it gets shared on an upcoming episode then email it in: [e-mail] Call and leave a voicemail: 877-207-2077 HOSTS: Amy Brown // RadioAmy.com // @RadioAmy Kat Van Buren // @KatVanburenSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me. Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits,

my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

So let's get to it. Listen to the. the Clifford show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us.

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Kid, your podcast. One, two, three. Feelings that you just want some. Amy and Kat got you covered like an arm, brother. Ladies and fellas, we just follow in the spirit where it tells us. From the real stuff to the chill stuff and the in between. Sometimes the best thing you can do it just out. And feel things.

This is Feeling Things with Amy and Kat. Happy Tuesday. Welcome to Feeling Things. I'm Amy. And I'm Kat. And my feeling of the day, well, I guess we both have them. I have a question about mine, though. Is tired a feeling?

Like I know that like physically I feel tired, but it's not a, are you feeling emotionally tired? No, I'm just tired. Oh. So that's my feeling. It's a physical feeling, yeah. It's a physical, so physically I feel tired. I did not sleep last night.

Do you know why? I do. Oh, do want to share? Sure. Okay. But no judgment. I'm not judging you. This is a safe space?

Yes. Okay. You know how I've been Adderall free for all year? Did you take one? Took one. I took one yesterday because it was strategic. I had a lot to do. And of course I have other tools I can implement, but this is a tool that I have.

Like I've had that bottle all year and I haven't dipped into it. But I dipped in yesterday and guess what? I got it all done. Yeah. But then I couldn't go to sleep because my body just wasn't used to it. Once I got used to Adderall, I could take it and sleep, no problem. It's also okay. You're prescribed that medication.

I am prescribed that medication. So it's not like you're a drug addict right now. You're like dipped into your stash. Like that's a medication. That's what it felt like. When I opened up my drawer and I pulled it out, I was like, okay, here it goes nothing. And then I took it. And then it was interesting.

I don't know exactly what it's doing, not a doctor, but whatever's doing to my neurotransmitters. Yeah. I liked it. And I felt just capable of doing. And while I was doing it, I was thinking, is this what some people just do? do like they just take the thing outside and finally rinse that off i had a thought of cleaning the basketball goal that popped into my mind like it needs a new net and then the the glass the basketball goal on the on the driveway the glass part is a little dirty and i did have a thought

but this is where i'm also proud of myself and i was like that's not why we took outerall we didn't take outer all to clean the basketball goal would it look better yes but you took it for a purpose and we're prepping for a vacation and getting everybody packed. And I normally pack the night before a trip or the morning of. Yeah, right before you leave. So part of my planning and awareness was I'm going to get as much done as possible a week ahead of time. And that was my day to do it.

So I did it. And I'm not using again today. Okay. Can you say that a different way? I was just making a little joke. I know, cats are therapists. So we need to take this seriously. I know that I had permission to take it. And I wanted to make sure I could share because I know I've been candid about my journey. And I guess part of me feels a little bit of shame, if I'm being honest, of like, why can't I just function this way without it? And I will set that aside because there's nothing wrong with me. This is the brain that I have. And some days, naturally, I'm able to tap into it. And I have other tools that will get me there. But yesterday I knew I needed the extra help. And so I took it and it helped me. Like I got it done and I'm thankful.

I just think it's interesting. I feel this too that for whatever reason, some people who have ADHD or anything, it can be depression, anxiety or whatever, would feel like they're cheating by taking a medication that puts them on the even playing field with other people. Like hearing you say that, I get it. I relate to that too.

Sometimes it feels like me taking the medication that is prescribed to me to help me function normally. feels like cheating when in reality it's just putting you on an even playing field. There's a lot of, I think, rhetoric around talk that I think helps people feel that way. But it's just when you put it that way, it's like you are working harder. I'm going to say this and you tell me what you think. Most days, you have to work harder to function the way a neurotypical person functions. And you don't complain about it.

you do it. I think sometimes you get down on yourself because you don't perform the same way. But like you're working harder. So why would there be a need for you to feel shame to just like have a day that everybody else has? It's almost like give myself a break, but it's not even a break. It's just normal. Yeah. No, thank you for saying that. That helps. Like the even playing field, I have heard that before, but obviously hadn't thought of it in a while and certainly not in this case. So that already has me like hearing you say that I'm sure it's helping others whether it's a medication for anything doesn't even have to be ADHD could be for whatever it is that you need to have it I guess it's just you know you kind of go I went six months it's not like I was on some streak

I didn't plan on breaking it at all it was sort of a Saturday night decision when I wake up tomorrow I think I'm going to take it because it's almost like self-care to allow yourself to take it I know that I will get everything done with ease. And it wasn't like I was running around some energizer bunny. I was just moving from one thing to the next with flow and purpose and ease. Like it just felt good. And nothing was like a big deal. I was like, okay, now I'm going to go do this.

And I was completing tasks because I can do a bunch of things. But I go and I start a task. And then I'm like, oh, now I'm in the kitchen doing the dishes. I was doing a load of laundry. And the laundry hasn't started yet. But, oh, I didn't switch my laundry. before I came over here. So how are you feeling?

So that's my feeling, you know. Yeah. But thank you for talking me through that. I relate to all you're saying because also I'm not taking medication right now, not because I don't want to, but because I'm trying to do other things that that medication does not mix well with. So I've been feeling kind of down on myself for not doing things with ease the way that I normally do but the way that I had been operating like a phone call takes a lot of energy but outside of

that I texted you this morning and said I'm feeling SIB today which do you want to explain to any new listeners what SIB means sorry I I beechy in case we have small ears listening yeah sorry I witchy with a B yeah that's our new code it's our code for I guess we developed it when I was being, whichy. You were. And I said, well, you can just say if you need to warn me, S-I-B. Yeah. And then I can say to you, S-I-B.

Yeah. And it helps just cut the edge. Like there's no, it's like this is a safe space. I am feeling a little bit of that, but I think really what I'm feeling is like melancholy, like just low. And I was feeling that before I started working on podcast stuff this morning. And I found something, I want you to explain it because it's yours. that I used and I did that was really helpful that I thought we could talk about. You know what I'm talking.

Yeah. So a little behind the scenes baseball, we have a Google doc with different things like Kat's ideas, Amy's ideas. And I know you did the exercise and you haven't shown me. So just because we have this Google Doc doesn't mean we always know exactly what the other person's going to say. It's just a general prompt or idea or activity. Like this is an activity and listeners can do it too. Like for example, you had no idea I took Adderall yesterday. You didn't know I was going to say that. I didn't even know I was going to say that. Honestly, I was going to keep it to myself. But then I thought, but then I didn't take my medication today. So it just came out. Right. But then I thought I know exactly why I'm tired. And I've been telling you since you got to my house that I'm tired.

It's our honesty circle. Right. And so then, but it's like, well, why didn't I sleep? It's not like I'm perplexed by it. I know exactly why. So I thought I would just finally tell you, which you didn't know that. So some stuff is we try to keep as organic as. possible, which is why Kat hasn't shared her activity with me. My activity was already in the Google Doc so you could see my example. But it's called Sky Journaling. And this is an exercise that you can do if you're wanting to process feelings. So you can go outside with your journal and find a cloud, look into the sky, and draw a cloud. And then... You pick an actual cloud and you draw the, you draw the cloud. And I mean, I'm not an artist. So like... I want to see yours. Yeah. My

cloud. These are some days my journal. I just write like really quickly to see. Oh, there's money in there. Yeah, I know. I found that. I found that the other day. That's funny. I have no idea. Okay. There's my cloud. Oh. Did you draw better? How clouds look very different. Okay. Well, I don't know how else to draw a cloud. Your cloud look. Okay, this is how I interpreted the assignment to go and try to sketch the cloud as it looks in the sky. That is how it looked to me. Okay. Because that looks like a cloud if there you were like, draw a cloud, I would just draw that. But that's what the cloud looked like.

Okay, okay, okay. Like a puffy, like a perfectly puffy. You see my cloud, you're going to understand what I mean. It was a perfectly puffy, fluffy, white cloud. And the sun was out, so I have the sun. Yeah. I guess sky journaling. Can you like show that to the camera so the camera can see if you're watching on YouTube?

I don't know what this page says. So there's my puffy, my cloud. My puffy fluffy. It kind of makes me want to go see what I wrote. what this last journal injury was because I have classic ADHD. I have like five journals that I bounce around journal through good times. Okay so my poem what you do is you sketch the cloud and then you write a poem and poetry is going to look different for everybody. There are no rules. I chose to rhyme. Yeah, I followed suit. Okay, cat followed suit. Can't wait to hear yours.

feeling all puffy up in the sky perimenopause making me want to die just kidding it's not that bad i'm just tired of randomly feeling annoyed and sad now that makes me want to cry yeah because i know where i was when i wrote this at least i get to sit here next to the sun i wonder what life would be like as a nun never mind i don't think that'd be fun And so it was the sky journaling activity.

I had no idea where it was going to take me. But I love the concept because there was emotion there. Like I felt sad, but then I also was able to laugh. And it doesn't have to be long. It doesn't have to be overwhelming. But after I journaled that, I felt better. And so I think you did it and you felt better from what I know, but I just don't know what the poem is. I don't know that I would, I would say I felt better. I don't want to give people false hope here. It helped me give myself compassion for where I was and I was able to better understand what was going on. Because I knew, like, I know why I feel this way. Like right now I feel on the verge of tears. I told you that when I got here. Like I just feel that today today. Nothing's going, nothing's wrong. Everything is fine in my life. Like nothing has changed from yesterday to today. Nothing has changed from the week when I was like, I feel so energized. I think that was like two weeks ago. Nothing has changed in my life.

just some things that I'm doing and my life has have changed in that sense I know why this is happening but I just like feel like I'm on the verge of like I could just go lock myself in the room in my room for a week I feel like so I think me doing this which I'm thinking about this I've never gone and looked at your ideas I think I've done that once and I don't know what made me do that today and I like had a scroll this was not like one of the top ideas this was kind of maybe in the middle I don't know So I'm kind of curious of what made me do that and why today did I see that? Because if I saw that in another day, I might have been like, oh, that's stupid. Like, you know, like, sky journaling.

Like, I don't know. But like, there's something about that that I was like, wait a second. And I read your poem and it didn't make me laugh. And I was like, oh, okay. I'm giving you the play by play. But I was going to sit down and I got some paper and have a journal. I found a pad of paper. And I was about to draw a cloud.

And I was like, no, you're supposed to go outside. and find the cloud and draw the cloud that you see. Yeah, well, I can't wait to see because I'm like, what? I just, I just drew a cloud. Okay, show me, show me. It looks like a, it looks like a penis or a dragon or a lizard. Oh, it looks like a whale. It's a whale.

Oh, wow. You know how sometimes clouds look like. Yeah, it looks, it looks rated R. It just look right. Okay, I didn't see any of those things, but I also didn't put into perspective. I made it dark. I thought I was just like, this is so telling. Of what?

Because like, my mood, like, why did I have to draw it, color it in like that? Because you were doing the, this is also. But it wasn't a dark cloud, it was white. But this is, but you were coloring in the white. You didn't have, if you had white paint, you would do a white and color it. I think I thought that the shading was going to make me feel like, oh, this is soothing. Maybe. I mean, that's what the beauty of sky journaling, I think we're learning is that everyone's

going to have their own interpretation of how to draw or what to draw. I guess now we're giving details, which I would love our listeners to do this for homework. And if they could email us, their poems, that would be great. Like, how fun would that be to see just what comes out for people? And their pictures of clouds. Yeah. Can you scan it or take a picture and attach it in the email? because I think reading those back on air could be fun and therapeutic for listeners.

So if you do send us your poem, also attach permission to share. Because who knows what may come up for you. If it's too personal, you don't have to share it. But you never know. And earlier I was saying it made me feel better, which I like that you put like... I felt compassion for myself. You felt compassion for yourself? Right.

Your mood necessarily didn't change. I think mine did because whenever I name that my wild hormones or my behavior that just feels really wonky to me is likely perimenopause, I feel better. And so doing that point helped me name it. Who knows what it'll do for you. But it could be that, yeah, you just have compassion for yourself. Or maybe you do feel a little bit better. Yeah. It's information. Yeah. Maybe it'll tell you something. The poem is now going to speak to you. based on what comes out, which I don't think I have any plans of being a nun. It just rhymed. You're limited in your words.

Yeah. Yeah, I will say I didn't feel better. I felt compassion, but it gave me an idea of where I was. Like it helped me. It did help me. I think the point of this was like help you slow down and be. And it was like, okay, take a second for yourself so you can recognize where you are. So then I don't go around projecting this feeling on other things because what I'm going through,

I just have to sit it out, like wait it out. Like it just, I'm going to be here for a little bit. So I'd like to be able to know where to put this energy. So let me read you my film. I cannot wait. I'm ready. Oh, little cloud, you look much like an alligator. As you float through the sky, I imagine you yelling.

I hope I don't see you later. I get it. Sometimes you just want to be alone. This is going to make me cry. With nothing to do, no one to answer on the phone. Is it exhausting to float through the sky all? day, does it feel like a job or does it feel like play? It sounds nice, but I guess lots of people are staring at you judging what you look like and if you're blocking their view. If you're giving

the sun enough space to shine or creating the right amount of shade so we can have a good time. Some people might think you haven't made, but that's a lot of pressure and I don't think you even get paid. Wow, this is this long. But I love it. I was. really into it. This is warming my heart. I guess what I want you to hear from me is if you are tired of being a good cloud all day, maybe you should just be. I feel like Dr. Seuss. So what I hear as someone receiving what you're saying is that maybe during this time you just need to let what it is be. Yeah. And it's going to suck. Yeah. But it just has to be. Yeah. I'm going to name another feeling. I feel silly because that poem is like silly. Like as I was writing it, I was kind of like,

ha, ha, ha, ha. You're like, you don't even get paid. But also I like relate to it a lot. And it was interesting where your mind just went. Like, why did my mind just go? Like, I hope that, or I bet you're saying, I hope you, I don't see you later, like, because I want to just like lock myself in a room for a couple hours. Yeah. And be by myself. And I can't do that. I mean, can't later. But it just was... Right after this. Yeah. It just was interesting to me that like my brain went there because I could have, I mean, same with you. You could have written about anything. So it's very telling. And also it did bring a little levity. But at the end, it was like, yeah, I'm writing this about this cloud. But like, I just want to like give myself the grace that I'm not going to be as fun or

like energized or silly or breezy or whatever right now. I just am going to. I just am going to. this is what I'm working with right now. I alligator cloud. I love it. Thank you for sharing that with us. With both of us, we got emotional when we were reading ours, and then we also laughed.

Yeah. So I don't know that that will happen for everybody, but I think it's kind of neat, though. Yeah, I think part of my laughter is avoidance of vulnerability. Well, yeah, it was kind of funny, though, when you made, like the, you don't even get paid. Yeah. Like there's,

there's a little joke. There's levity in it. And also, yes, what's going on with you could be like, oh, let's avoid this. Let's laugh so I don't cry. But I just, I think it could be a neat activity for people. I don't know what's going to come up for people, but if you need to laugh and cry or just tap into whatever you're feeling, then it also takes the pressure off of it being about you because it's about the cloud. Yeah. And I'm not good with just random journaling. You need a prompt. So it was helpful to have like a prompt. And it was like a simple prompt. I don't. I just wrote that poem. I didn't write anything else in there of like how what's going on today. That was just off the cuff. Well, no. I meant like I didn't expand on my feelings after that. I feel like you are good at like writing about your day. When you do it. Yeah, pages. Yeah. And you even reward yourself with money. This seems if you do a job.

No, that's just I'm keeping it in there. I found it in there. And then also I don't know why this ripped out, but maybe I was angry. But that was August 24. So you never know when I'm going to grab what journal. I need just go around the house and collect them and then I need to finish each journal because I would like to see it through. Yeah. So thanks for that tip. You're welcome.

Hey there at feeling thingspodcast.com is where you can email us your poems and your permission, right? Your consent form. Yeah. Like I. Your release of information. Yeah. Because we're hip up in here.

where you are. Are therapist HIPAA? Is that what y'all fall under? A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what y'all saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th.

You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement

to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music.

The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast, it's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford

and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I went and sat on the little Ottoman in front of him. I said, hi, dad. And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen. She says, I have some cookies and milk. This is a badass convict.

Right. Just finished five years. I'm going to have cookies and milk at mom. Yeah. On the senior show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience, and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor, cultural icon Danny Trail to talk about addiction, transformation, and the power of second chances. The entire season two is now available to bench featuring powerful conversations with the guests like Tiffany Addish, Johnny Knoxville, and more. I'm an alcoholic.

And without this true, I'm going to die. Open your free I-Heart radio app. Search the Cino Show. And listen now. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans.

A show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast. or wherever you get your podcasts. Are therapist HIPAA?

Is that what y'all fall under? HIPAA. Can you say that? What you fall under? You can say HIPAA. I don't know. I always feel weird talking to you about things that like because I don't want you to get in trouble. But I know doctors and nurses.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like private health information. Is yours like do you all take? Is it the HIPAA oath? Yeah. Okay. The hip oath.

Yeah. We can't release information of people without their consent. Right. For sure. We protect their privacy. See. Yeah. Yeah. But we just have different information than a doctor would have.

Well, something I saw you throw in the doc that I'm very curious about is pop psychology versus actual psychology. And I'm very curious to see what this is about. My guess is the pop psychology is a lot of what we see online, sort of the TikTok or Instagram version of something like therapeutic that's going on in somebody's life or I don't even know the proper word of what it would be, but something, but it's like, is that actually the real definition or what that is? Or, you know, it gets overused and then it gets muddy and you don't really know what it means. And then the word, the meaning changes. So I actually found this from the Therapist Uncensored podcast posted this on their Instagram.

And I talked a lot about this when I did unique therapy of what these things are and what they are in the pop culture world. And so this just took four popular terms and talked about what people think they mean and then what they actually mean in a clinical setting. And I want to preface this with something about language as that language changes. Like that's why there's some words we don't use anymore. There's some words that meant this and now they mean this. And like your grandma might say it meaning this, but you say it meaning this. And that's true for these things too. And I think it's important to be intentional about how we use certain words.

I also saw, I didn't say this because I didn't fact check it, but I'm sure there's some truth to it. It was a research study that talked about how truthful the information you're getting on TikTok and Instagram is when it comes to mental health information. I think what they said is, I'm going to preface this with I don't actually know the actual, but it was something like 60 to 70 percent of the information you're getting on social media platforms about mental health can be incorrect. Also, I didn't read the whole article. So I want to say what I imagine is part of that probably is like it's not completely false, but it's not completely true. Well, and then people are left to kind of figure it out from yourselves. And then they can kind of take from that without further conversation or critical thinking around it.

Something I noticed about myself since we've become closer the last few years is working on my critical thinking. Because I tend to, well, first of all, it's exhausting for me. with my brain. Critically think. Well, yeah, I mean, I like to critical think and I can and I want to think for myself, but it can be. You just want to trust the source. Yes.

I'd rather trust the source. And when I find somebody that I like or they seem to be popping off, as the kids say, I will follow and start to listen and want to take in everything that they're saying. Like you know this. I had this with Mel Robbins, which I think just, I'm also prefacing that Kat and I might do a deep dive on. I'm smiling. because that like yes and cats been waiting she you mentioned like a month ago something used to do on couch talks when you had uni therapy podcast was deep dives and or were deep

dives and you miss them and I thought okay well let's do a deep dive into Mel Robbins and let them because I think as a therapist you see some confusion around that which as a whole like it's parts of the idea that are not harmful but if you're just kind of taking a snippet from social media, maybe you're not even reading the whole book or you do, but then you're not doing some inner work to figure out, okay, how does this really apply to me? You're just sort of starting to throw around. Let them, let them, let them. Then it can be harmful and you can speak about any clients. I feel like you said you've had some people that have been confused by it, but I don't know if you can say that. HIPAA. I want to save it for when we do, but like in general,

it is a confusing idea and there's just like what I'll say about, and I have to, watch this for myself because we do post things on social media and even doing unique therapy, I had to constantly like check myself of there's the things that go viral and the things that do really well on the internet are the things that are the most shocking. And the truth is not that shocking most of the time when it comes to some of this mental health stuff. Thanks, Shannon. She just found the actual post and it said analysis of 500 TikTok videos with the hashtag, hashtag mental health or mental health tips found that more than 80% were misleading. Yeah, that's scary.

So like, yeah, that's the issue. And misleading doesn't mean that they were bad, doesn't mean that they're toxic, doesn't mean that they were like completely wrong. It's that they weren't completely true. And that I think the problem is with social media and mental health. And even what we're doing is there is so much nuance in it that most of the interesting conversations can get watered down if we're really, sitting there and talking about all the nuance because nuance is like not that interesting nuance is boring

and nuance is exhausting but it's there for a reason well and a lot of it gets our attention because sometimes it's prefaced with and Mel will do this and this is what I had to realize I often was like sucked in by like this one thing will change your life yeah do this and everything will change or be this way and it's like it's not that simple but it's there's something shocking that like draws you in And so then I was hooked and not that, and by the way, the deep dive's not going to be like a slam thing. No, it's not like a cancel thing. It's more like it. It's more critical thinking. Getting more information and thinking of like some of these really huge influencers that, or she's not even influencer. She is now. But like she started off as like self help and coach. And a lot of people in that space, there's a lot we could name in the group, the category she falls into. And you just have to. to like be aware. And I think I just bought into it all right away. And Kat had a little more just, you're more hesitant with those people than I. And so I started to use more critical thinking.

And then it's like once I wasn't, it's sort of like the veil was lifted a little bit. And I start to notice things. And I'm like, oh, well, that doesn't seem right. And Kat and I even struggle with like, sometimes when we're coming up with titles, we're like, well, we want people to click and listen. But also, we don't think that every single thing might change your life. Every single thing might change your life. Now, have we used that before? Maybe I don't, I don't know, but there might be one little thing that we feel like this could be a game changer for you, but then you're going to have to try it for yourself and see what works. And we'll circle back to the Melfing later, but it's a hard dance. Yeah, it's a hard dance of obviously this is part of our job and we have jobs in order to

make money and being ethical. It's hard. And that also, I was, as I'm saying this, we're always, open to feedback. So if we do something that feels misleading, I would love to know that. Oh, I want to know. Yes. Yeah. And I could talk about this all day. So let's get into these. This will be like a precursor to the the Mel Robbins deep dive. And again, this is not to like hate on her. It's more to examine things. So then you can take that information and apply it to the other things you're seeing. One thing I'll say before I get into these what I tried to do with Mel because I feel like sometimes I'm such a Debbie downer with you because I'm like oh come on like because of the people I'm a fan of yes and I'm glad you be honest I'm glad you can be honest and be like Amy you don't need to fall for every single

person you see on and I'm like no no no no no I just did a 10 minute meditation and it's going to change my life and you're like oh my gosh but like what works for you like I don't want to like what is it like yuck your yum like if it works for you isn't that the saying yeah i don't know yuck your y'all i like it okay yeah don't yuck my yum yeah maybe i'm like taking a different saying but i think that's a thing but i don't want to constantly feel like i'm like taking things away from you that like you really like her and you're really interested in and help you so with mel i feel like i held back a little bit and i like we talked about her a good bit i feel like on the fifth thing when we were doing that yeah and you kept your mouth shut. I kept my mouth shut. And like, because not everything, I'm getting ahead of

myself, but like not everything she says is like bad or wrong. Like some of it's, I'm like, yeah, I agree with that. So when you finally said something, I was like, okay, let's talk about it. When I finally said like, oh, I'm not sure how I feel about this now. Or I couldn't even, my sister gifted me her last book and I couldn't even finish it. But you came to that conclusion on your own. On my own. So I also am like, it is not my job to police what other people believe and think and do and pay attention to. But what I, I do like to do is stuff like these deep dives because it helps people critically think and you might not even know who Mel Robbins is, but because you hear this conversation about this, you take the

ideas we're talking about and you apply them to the other things you're seeing. So you pause and think about. I guess too, like for anybody that might be a big Mel fan, again, we keep saying her because it's the example. It's the first deep dive we're going to do. There will be multiple deep dives that show up, I'm sure, should we decide to do more than just a few that we've talked about. I think there's plenty we could do. But it's also not to persuade anybody to like, oh, don't be a fan of her. Because also I don't want to bash anybody or I want to lift people up. Like she's doing her job. And she's helping people. And she's helping lots of people. It's just, I think I get frustrated for you now because I see your point as to like you went to school and you're a

therapist and you have all this work and you have this oath. Like, do therapists? It's taken. We don't want we're taking an oath. I don't remember taking an oath, but like we have an ethical, we have ethical guidelines. We have to abide by. And if somebody thinks that we're breaking those, they can report us to a board. We have to report to that board. And we might, I mean, they can suspend our license. They can just give us some kind of something. We can have to do continue education. But where some of these coaches, they don't have an ethical board. They can do whatever they want. And it's fine. And I do think she has a lot of really amazing guests. This isn't even so much

about her podcasts because the guest she has on, like a lot of times they are brilliant. Yes, that's the word. I was going to say, they are. And the word wasn't coming to me. Remember, I'm tired. They're brilliant. And they have a lot of insight and they can help. And, you know, they're reaching lots of people. But then sometimes I hear like little tactics that I hear her doing where I'm like, wait, is this genuine? Or are you just doing a manipulative tactic? Which we're all trying to grow and do things. So then I'm like, well, should we be trying that? You know, we've even joked on the podcast. Like, you know, I know you want to send this to your sister right now. Send this to one person that you know.

Just one person. Just like spread it. And it's like, do we have to say that? If people want to send it to their sister, they'll send it to the sister. Yeah. Not like this necessarily bad. But she's done an episode before where she's talking about little ways you can get people to do what you want them to do.

And that was sort of one of the examples. And then I hear her doing it. And then I'm like, it just feels weird because I'm like, oh, am I now doing this just because I'm being brainwashed to like, like do this. Yeah. So anyway, moving on, pop psychology versus actual psychology. See, we could talk about that for the whole podcast.

Okay. This, again, comes from the Therapist Uncensored podcast. It's a great podcast. I will say it's very academic. They have great guests as well. They're two actual, like, I think they're both PhDs. But great podcasts if you want to just learn about stuff. But they posted the pop psychology definition and what the actual clinical definition or like idea

idea behind these things are. A win is a win. A win. is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me, Cliver Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined.

And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the big. moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be.

Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. I went and sat on the little ottoman in front of him. I was, hi, dad. And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen. She says, I have some cookies and milk. This is a badass convict. Right.

Just finished five years. I'm going to have cookies and milk at my mom. On the senior show podcast, each episode invites you into a raw, unfiltered conversations about recovery, resilience, and redemption. On a recent episode, I sit down with actor, cultural icon Danny Trail, to talk about addiction, transformation, and the power of second chances. The entire season two is now available to binge, featuring powerful conversations with the guests like Tiffany Addish, Johnny Knoxville, and more.

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plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Part of me wants to ask you what you think these mean to see. Are you okay with that?

I'm a perfect candidate because I am pop culture. Well, you might be right because you might know some of these like clinical because you also are in therapy. Okay. So I think this could be interesting. So the first one is trauma bonding. So when you hear the word trauma bonding, what do you think it is? When, well, I have two things popping in my head right now. When you are bonded with somebody through a trauma that you experience together,

not necessarily if it happened both of you, but like, I think if in a relationship, if one person is doing something to the other person, like maybe they're emotionally abusive, do you have a trauma bond relationship with that person? Like sometimes it's why you stay. That pops into my head. And then also when you trauma bond with someone like you, you tell each other your trauma. Okay.

Like you meet somebody at a bar and you're like, oh my gosh. Which when I was in the thick of things, I wasn't meeting someone at a bar, but I had a lot going on. And one time I was at a birthday party and my husband had stuff going on, my son, like my life, my dad died. Like my life was falling apart. But I went to this birthday party because it was

someone close to me. And then at the party, I just randomly start telling someone there, like, everything going on with me. And I left there mortified. And I was like, what did I just do? But I just like trauma dumped. And they shared some stuff back too about their life. So I felt like that was a trauma bond situation. No, I mean, I've seen them since then, but I like haven't brought any of it up. And I've been, I've left there the whole drive home. Like, what did I just do? Like, why did I just unload that? It's not necessary. We're at a party. So perfect, actually, because you answered the so the pop psychology definition like what people I think when they say are trauma bonded with them I think they're thinking that they're what they wrote in this post is when you're bonding with someone over shared trauma or similar past experiences okay so that's not in clinical settings when I'm talking to somebody about trauma bonding that's not generally what I'm I understand when they're saying that that's what they think it means but it's what you said at the beginning I am going to add to what they say because I think trauma bonding can act you can actually you can It can be healthy and it's going to sound weird, but it can be good in a sense.

So the actual definition, what they put is a situation where someone develops a strong sympathy, loyalty, or dependence or attachment towards their abuser. So you bond with somebody who is, you're in that trauma with them. I'm blanking on it. But what's the syndrome where you like fall in love with your captor? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stockholm syndrome. Yeah.

It's like that would a form of trauma. Stockholm syndrome. But also, if you go through a trauma with somebody, you're going to be trauma bonded with them. I was thinking like my sister, like walking through cancer with our mom and our dad. Yeah. Like there were certain things we went through that nobody else would understand. Like, I mean, other people that have walked through it with their parents, maybe.

That's not what I'm talking about. Just like in our family. It was like, ah, you wouldn't get it. And I feel like we're trauma bonded in that way. Yeah. So that, I think there's two ways you can look at that. But that's what that is. It's not just sharing stories.

it's like going through the experience. Gotcha. Okay. So good job A plus. I didn't think about the sister part though, but that makes sense now. So you can be trauma bonded if you both like a sibling, like if you and your siblings were raised in a alcohol at home or something, it could be trauma bonding. And also it doesn't even have to be an abuser, but let's say you walk through, like in your relationship,

one of your partners has a lot of mental health issues, whether that is addiction or, I mean, any other mental health issue. they might not be abusing you, but you're going through this very difficult time with them, and it might be hard to separate because you've been through all of that together. You can be, it's like a codependency, you know. So there's trauma bonding. Next one is a fun one. Gaslighting. What I know it to be is someone telling you their truth, but it's not the truth.

They're trying to convince you that that's the truth. And like, you know that it's not that they are living in their own world. old. It seems and it doesn't matter. Their way is the truth and they're not going to ever back down from that. And it makes you kind of feel crazy. Yes. Yes. You feel crazy. I have been gaslit before. It feels crazy. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty common. People have exaggerated it where the pop term is like they're just lying to you. Oh, well yeah. Like I hear my daughter and her friends like teenagers will just be like, oh, stop gaslighting me. I'm like, okay. Which that's what I'm like lying. Okay, it is. But that seems probably more the more pop way, but it's still lying, but it's more lying, but trying to convince somebody else

that they're nuts. Yeah. So the pop way would be the pop way. In popular culture, it's lying or just like, sometimes people just like disagreeing with somebody. They're like, oh, you're gaslighting me. That's just like disagreeing or like maybe sometimes you just lie because you're like lying. It doesn't mean that you're manipulating somebody in an abusive way or a toxic way. I mean, line is pretty toxic. The actual clinical term or actual clinical way it's viewed is an abuse tactic where you are manipulated to question your reality, memory or sanity, not just disagreeing over what happened. So this is like blatant, like we're looking at the sky and it's blue and that person is saying, what are you seeing? The sky is yellow. And you're sitting there being like, I see it blue, but like have I thought

now you're starting to question like have I thought blue is yellow and yellow is blue my whole life like what where they're blatant things in front of you and it's to make you feel crazy so you start question everybody everything and you start to feel weak and if there's a power dynamic then you definitely do and you'll eventually just be like okay fine it's yellow versus versus like your daughter being like no I was home at curfew because they don't want to get in trouble you know yeah that's just lying Yes. Okay. Next one, this one grinds my gears sometimes. Triggered. Yums my yucks. This one really. This really yucks my yums. Okay. Triggered. Triggered. Okay. I just have one thing that's coming to mind. And it's when you are having an emotional, even a visceral, like a physical.

You're so smart. Shut up. No, really. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Pause, pause, pause. No, I mean, just you're having a response to something that has happened because of something that has happened to you in the past. Okay, yes. So pop psychology says someone makes you uncomfortable or annoyed. Like, oh, she triggered me. Okay, so it doesn't always have to be because of something in the past. Well, that's the pop psychology. Oh, sorry. The actual, ding, ding, ding, Amy, a trigger is something that causes a sudden increase in

symptoms like flashbacks in PTSD or compulsions like in OCD, not just a source of general discomfort. So yeah, it's something's happening. It's bringing up this actual visceral use out, big word visceral experience that's creating not just like, oh, I was angry or annoyed or it bothered me, but like it's bringing up symptoms that have to do with your trauma or OCD or something like that. So good job. You're three for three, girl.

ready to go four for four so far hit me up i'm going to get 100 okay but if you don't get 100 it's also okay thank you intrusive thoughts thoughts that are intruding this one's probably the hardest well but here's how i see it again with my brain thoughts that are taking over they're interrupting what i have going on and are they thoughts that you're thoughts that you really want to happen? No. They're not welcome necessarily. I haven't invited them there. I'm not trying to think them. They're just there. And I want to make them stop. Like I think of, I don't know if this falls into the right thing. But when I was in the throes of my eating disorder, I felt like I had a lot of intrusive thoughts like about everything. Yeah. Like what kind of workouts I was doing.

if I walked enough, like, what was on the menu? Like, you can't eat that. Oh, you're a, why'd you eat that? You idiot. I mean, I guess that's negative self-talk, but they felt very intrusive in that, like, it was ruling my life. Yeah. Part of that is true.

So pop psychology, intrusive thoughts, random thoughts or impulses that you might actually want to act on. So sometimes, like, people will say, this is what I think a lot of people are saying, like, in their TikTok and stuff. I had this intrusive thought. and like it's something you might want to do like I had this intrusive thought so I went and spent $500 on makeup like it was an intrusive thought that I had to give into or like I wanted to eat cake and so then I went and got a piece of cake versus what intrusive thoughts actually are unwanted or

involuntary thoughts that go against your real values and desires you don't want to act on them and them coming true would be your worst nightmare they can be very prominent in distressing in disorders like PTSD or OCD is a big one like they have all these intrusive thoughts that they just like it makes them cringe when they think about it or it's like some it can sometimes be like harm harm some kind of harming to themselves and it's like no I don't want to actually do this but I'm thinking about it and then there's comes shame with it and it's very problematic it's not just like oh I had this thought of like going to buy this skirt so I had to go buy it you know that sounds like an impulsive thought well the impulse would be doing it right but it's intrusion like it's coming in so they have the thought and then they go by

the skirt that's that's just oh yeah what you're saying that's an impulsive thought. Yeah. Because I'm like, that's not as bad as like I have a thought of like, I can't believe I just ate that. Now I need to throw it up. Yes. Yes. But like part of you like I don't really want to be purging. No. Like I have this intrusive thought that I can't get rid of. And sometimes with OCD is like it feels like you can't get rid of the thought until you, yeah, then have impulse. But a lot of those impulses you don't actually want to happen. So it can be very confusing because you're like, what does this mean? Does this mean that I want this? Is it mean, you can ask yourself, this is mean I'm bad?

Does this mean there's something wrong with me? And it's not true. Like you can't help those things. That's the like higher level. And I think sometimes when we're talking about like, I had this thought that I wanted to dye my hair so I went and dyed my hair. That's a little different. So you wouldn't put that as a real like an intrusive thought.

And I think, well, that's what I'm saying with how words are changing meaning is it, it kind of waters down. so we have to clarify that this is this and this is this. Now, those thoughts can also be distressing depending on who you are. So I don't want to use any of this as a blanket statement. You might not want to dye your hair and you do it. You feel like you didn't want to do that.

Or like, it's something that maybe you loved your blonde hair. Like I want to get bangs. Yeah. So is that I woke up with that intrusive thought. And when I say woke up, I barely slept. So when I woke up from my little nap, last night, I woke up, should I get bangs? Because I have a hair appointment tomorrow? No, Wednesday.

And I want to get bangs. Now, what I would wonder with some of those things, a lot of times, because I have that stuff where I'm like, I mean, I must got adopted a dog yesterday. That's an impulse. And that comes from more so my anxiety and ADHD and me just being kind of an impulsive person and or me needing some kind of, I mean, we all know how I'm feeling right now. I need some kind of like high to hold on to. I had to bet, Catherine, if you're going to get a dog, you got to sit on it for at least a week.

Versus if you were going to make a change like bangs, is that really just an intrusive thought or is that this like desire for like some feel good and change? Yeah. Yeah. Got it. So again, like we were saying, there's nuance and everything. So this conversation is bigger. But generally I wanted to highlight like there's a.

difference in how we use some of these words and what they really mean and that doesn't mean that like this stuff over here doesn't matter but sometimes it can be confusing for people I'm thinking about like when people this is something that again grinds my gears is when the way we talk about bipolar when they're like oh that she was so bipolar or she was being so bipolar that's not what people think bipolar disorder is isn't that you're you're thinking a lot of times we say that when somebody's hot and cold. And that's not a lot of times what somebody with bipolar disorder even looks like.

And also, that's something that they can't help and it's an actual mental health disorder. Yeah, I think that I've been guilty years back in the past of being like, oh, I'm so bipolar right now, like using that word flippantly. But I think no shame to you. That was normal. No, I think.

But I think we also then have a responsibility once we learn, I personally in the last several years, I feel insensitive saying that now. So I wouldn't say that because, and maybe that's because I had an experience with someone for the first time that was, and I had it before. And then I had a new found respect

for what they were going through. And I don't want to minimize what real people with bipolar are, and it's like kind of mean. Are dealing with. Yeah, because it's like, okay, yeah, no, that's sexually not bipolar. Let me, I'll show you what.

is and you don't want it. I mean, it's, it's hard. And yeah. And it's like you're saying that as an insult. So it's like if if somebody and people do that too, like, oh, they're so ADHD. It's like, okay, it's kind of mean. I have that and like that I don't want you to talk about my behavior that I can't help like that or things are hard for me. And it's also bigger than that. Like that's a struggle on that. It feels like right now on social media like everybody has ADHD. There's, there's phase. Like we're going through the phases of every disorder at some point I feel like like it's everybody has ADHD everybody has autism everybody has OCD everybody I see that in my office as like a constant revolving but I don't think I have any of those other things but I think this is part of that too is we all can relate to to symptoms

of all of those things like we can all I mean even we can bring in personality disorders orderline personality disorder narcissistic personality disorder we all have traits of those I have traits of both of those. That doesn't mean that I have those disorders. And so that's also part of the issue with people, how do I say this? Maybe just seeing on social media, if someone's like, oh, if you can't find your keys, you misplace things all the time, you have time blindness, you can't ever be on time. Then it's like, people are like, oh my gosh, I have ADHD. But they've never actually gone and been tested to figure out if they really have it. Because it's a, it's, I've been tested once in college and then later, probably in the last five years from someone you connected me with, because I kind of thought,

well, maybe I've outgrown it. Some wishful thinking. And I was like, eh, haven't. Still the same. But I think if you, if some of those things are sounding familiar with you, then yeah, and you have the resources, try to do the steps to go get tested. So then. Well, it can feel when you see those videos, it can feel like, like a relief to have an answer

to some things that you might not like about yourself or something. things that you've been struggling with. So I think that's one of the reasons we grab onto that, like, I must have this. But also it causes panic in other people of like, I've had clients come in my office and be like, why haven't you told me that I have this? I'm like, because you don't. And also sometimes in diagnosing specifically like more so personality disorders, there is a, nuance in giving that diagnosis also in like really figuring it out because it's overdiagnosed and, I mean, under, it's misdiagnosed all the time. So I can't just know somebody for a couple sessions and be like, this is that what you have for sure.

So would. And you're knowing the version that's showing up in your office. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So. And over time, yeah. Over time, hopefully you start to see like the cracks in the presentation versus the reality. And as a client, I show up, try to show up my best self as well in the therapy room.

So I think that that's, that has created some difficulty in being a therapist. because of the stuff. And again, I am saying that as I am hosting a podcast talking about mental health. So I know that I have to monitor that too. And I want to be open to that feedback to if I'm presenting things in a way that feels too overarching or to, I wanted to say simpleized. That's not a word. Simplistic? Sure. But anyway, my whole point in doing this and reading this is just giving us, again, a way to critically think more. and opening our eyes to the bigger picture of what some of these things mean. And it's not to shame anybody because if I didn't work in this field, I would be on the pop culture part of all of this. Like why else, why wouldn't I? Welcome.

Welcome to our side. I guess, yeah, being so close to you, it's helped me. And I appreciate it. And I think others listening will appreciate this too. It just gives you a different perspective when you're doom scrolling, which pro tip set a timer. Doom scrolling in itself, not totally bad. but if you're doing it for a long period of time, stop, it'll change your life. Just kidding.

Set this timer. It'll change your life in five minutes. That's all you need. Let's close with a win, big or small. So my son is in summer school and something the principal said they're doing is encouraging the kids, like they have a big poster board and they're writing down their wins of the day or wins of the week. big or small doesn't matter but each kid has to participate and he was just sending out an email to

the parents talking about how it's really cool to see them be able to look at their day and look at their life and come up with something like a win big or small so for both of us today's been you more so than me like I'm just tired of you have other things going on and you're feeling melancholy and like an unpaid cloud but I showed up but you're here and you showed up and I guess let's just find a win like what's a win for you oh that you showed up yeah that's what i was oh that was you're doing it you want a bigger one i feel like that's big no i get it you showed up that's your win and i'll do too because it was a win for me to do that exercise because i don't usually do journaling so for me to actually stop and be like okay i can stop and do this and i'll get back to my

work in a second i need you go home and read your poem to patrick your husband he's already being so sweet today so I wonder if he'll be like oh my gosh he's going to be like let's frame it he's going to quit your job stay home right I'm just kidding I don't want to quit my job you need to keep that I know but we all have those moments where it's like I'm done yeah I'm moving to Mexico is that where you would move no I don't know why I said that okay I think it's my cousin is moving there oh yeah I don't know if she said that publicly yet so I don't say which cousin yeah you've so many cousins who can see so many cousins. I do. I have lots of cousins on my dad's side, my mom's side. What's your win? My win is, um, by Mexico though, I did mean like more of like the Pacific side. Maybe I could

see myself going there. Not like, no way of a Laredo. I'm never ever heard of that city. Oh, it's the border. Okay. Let me, let me think of a win. I've been good about drinking my water today. I have my measuring cup and that is what I'm going to do because I've been getting headaches and I know it's because I'm dehydrated. So, cheers. I have all my water bottles and you have your measuring cup. This is my favorite thing to drink out of. I will drink all my water if I have my measuring cup and I know it's made a plastic and I don't know if it's giving me microplastics in my brain, but it's fine. Do you really want me to cheers to you? Yeah. Okay. Let's just close with the cheers because we both did it. This is our wins.

We're winning. Who used to say that? Charlie Sheen. You don't remember right when hashtag and you're becoming a thing. You cheers me and then you didn't drink. Oh, do you have to drink after you cheers? And you have to make eye contact. Oh my gosh, Alex, my boyfriend, he told me that exact same thing. He said I cheers and look away. Do you want to know where cheers came from? Did I tell you this already? Don't know. I learned this when I went to Italy. So cheers came from back in the day, the Romans, the whoever. Oh, yes, yes. You have told us. They would all cheers their glasses to make sure, and they would clink them so a little bit would go into other people's and it would make sure that nobody poisoned each other.

Because I'm not going to poison you because you're going to clink my glass and then I would be poisoning myself. Bam. More you know. That is a fun fact. Thank you for letting us know. You're welcome. People can use that this weekend.

Wait, I think that was from the Romans or was that from the Boston. Did I learn that in Boston? I feel like you would come back from overseas when you told us that. It was like on the fifth thing. No, huzzah is from Boston. They would cheers and go, huzzah. Mm-hmm. There you go.

It's okay. We're not here to give you historical facts. We're not a history podcast. Yeah. We're a therapy podcast. Yeah. God. Because cats are a therapist.

And we hope you have the day. You need to have. Bye. Bye. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me.

Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast. The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard,

but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker,

a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance.

And then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth with John Hope Bryant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth,

starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation, is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John Hope Bryant from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human.