The Bobby Bones Show - AMY: Peeing in Public, Fertility Struggles, & Shame vs. Guilt

Episode Date: April 20, 2025

FEELING THINGS: Amy & Kat are feeling embarrassed…and not just because Amy had to squat near tortillas at the grocery store to avoid peeing her pants. Amy & Kat also dig into 2 more core feelings: Shame and Guilt. They unpack the difference between the two (spoiler: they get confused a lot), share personal stories (both Amy & Kat have fertility journeys) and talking about how these feelings can actually guide growth and connection…when we let them.  From awkward gym moments to mom guilt to deeper wounds around identity and worth, this episode is real, relatable, and kind of funny…in a vulnerable way.  Enjoy and don’t forget to have the day you need to have! Email: [e-mail] Call and leave a voicemail: 877-207-2077 HOSTS: Amy Brown // RadioAmy.com // @RadioAmy Kat Van Buren // @KatVanburenSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me. Clivert Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits,

my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show. This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

So let's get to it. Listen to the. the Clifford show on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok podcast network on TikTok. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us.

You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Strait, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things. I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventures, and adrenaline seekers to decide. discuss the inner landscapes that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. So we too can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. One, two, three.

Hey, on some, Amy and Cat got you covered like an umbrella. Hello in the spirit where it's all of us. From the real stuff to the chill stuff. in between. Sometimes the best thing you can do it just out. This is Feeling Things with Amy and Kat. Happy Tuesday Feeling Things. I'm Amy.

And I'm Kat. And I guess we should say how to YouTube. Hey YouTube. We are on YouTube now. So we feel very excited about this. Hey, everybody watching us on YouTube. Hi, Mom. Hi, Dad.

Hi, Patrick. He's actually probably. not watching it. He's kidding. My parents have both passed. Okay. But I'm sure your parents are watching. I don't think my dad's ever been on YouTube before.

Well, dang it. You need to get him an account so that he can subscribe. Yes. Okay. Well, this is the day to subscribe, though, because today we are talking about shame and guilt. Big day. Big day feelings that really need to be talked about together because we can confuse them a lot. I definitely do.

And I think a lot of us feel one or both things on a regular basis. But before we get into guilt and shame, I want to get to the feeling of the day. We didn't even practice that. I think we're just finding our groove. But our feeling of the day is embarrassed. And this feeling came about because I was on the tortilla aisle. Well, wasn't even getting tortillas. I just happened to be on the aisle in which they sell tortillas at the grocery.

store when suddenly I got this urge to pee. And we've talked about our pelvic issues before way back in the day on the fifth thing before we turned into feeling things. So if you're just tuning in, you're like, wait, what happened to four things with Amy Brown? Well, Kat was my co-host on the fifth thing, and she's a licensed therapist. And I knew I wanted to pivot the podcast somehow. And we were having so much fun together. So here we are with feeling things. And we were talking about pelvic issues. on the fifth thing. But I don't know if it's just an age thing because I've never given birth. I knew that there was bladder pelvic issues if you've been pregnant and you've given birth and then all of a sudden you just start peeing. But I have not been pregnant and I have not given birth,

but yet I am still having pelvic bladder issues. And well, part of that is I've no doctor, but could be also because you hold your pee for very long periods of time. time. Working in radio, I have had to hold my pee a lot. And then when I sprint to the bathroom, I also, because our work restrooms are public, I don't sit on them and I don't have time to lay out the liner. So I squat. And they say squatting is bad. So now I think I'm answering my own question as to why I'm at the grocery store and suddenly I have this urge to pee. And I have no choice but to either pee right there on the on myself in the aisle or I squat down and just sit there squatting kind of holding it in until it passes so I'm down there I level with all the

tortillas acting like I am sorting through the tortillas I'm like mm okay I don't want I don't want this kind oh like I am acting because I'm like people are on to me like They were like either this girl has to pee or she really is looking for a specific tortilla. And I was hoping for the latter. I needed them to think that I was on the hunt for the perfect tortilla. Did you get tortillas? No. No, eventually I just like, was like, okay, I think the sensation has passed so I can slowly stand up.

Of course not. I waited until I got home because the sensation passed and I just wanted to get the heck out of there, get what I needed, and then go. I didn't even know where the restroom was in this grocery store. Like, just the sensation passed so I knew I was in the clear. And luckily it didn't come back until I got home until I got home and then I had to run to the bathroom. But this also, I don't know if you told the story on the fifth thing or if you just told it to me, but wasn't there a time you're in an elevator and you just like squatted down and acted like you were looking for something? Yes. Yes.

In my bag. Because the elevator started going up and the pee started coming out and I was like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I'm going to pee my pants. So I squat down in the elevator. Other people are in there and I'm like digging. You know, but I'm doing the thing where I'm digging my heel into my. You know, just to create like you're not coming out. Yeah, a stopper. Yeah.

I created a, it works. So that's my tortilla squat story. And I was. You were internally embarrassed because nobody could tell you were. No, no. But I really feel like sometimes if there's grocery store footage, like video cameras where they're watching people on the aisles. Like if they were watching, they knew.

Because they saw me like, and then squat and then and then as people would come. Only when people would walk by would I really start inspecting the tortillas. But if like they passed, I'd be like, okay. Okay, we're going to get you into some pelvic floor therapy. Or maybe just even get some like tips of some exercises you can do on your own. Right, which we talked about my friend Tiffany. It's literally what she does.

She's a pelvic floor, especially. and I don't think I've ever had a full appreciation for God's work that she's doing because I think now I need it. Yeah. Okay. I need it in a big way. So that is my embarrassing story. And that's why being embarrassed is the feeling of the day. And so I don't, I don't know, what do we do with embarrassed? Like, how do we lean into that? Is there a gift? Laughter. Oh, thank you. Laughter. There we go. Embarrassment usually comes in from the shame category because when we get embarrassed, it's like, oh my gosh. Like we have like these negative stories in our head. But through time, I think we can look back on stories that were really embarrassing.

And now I can appreciate them and laugh about them. And like I shouldn't feel shame about that because everybody's pee their pants. At some point in their life, sure. Right. Which I didn't pee to clarify. But I think there's like there's an internal dialogue. I'm thinking of a story that happened last. week that there's this internal dialogue that automatically pops up that says this is embarrassing.

You're so you're what a loser or whatever your voice says. And then I have to come back with another voice that's like actually nobody cares. So then that story just gets to be funny. I was working out last week and the class, I think this on Saturday. Yeah, Saturday. The class is kind of small. Usually not very small. This girl walks in and I'm like, oh my gosh, I know her. and the last time I saw her, I was walking in the Target parking lot and she called out my name was like, cat. So of course I was like, she's going to say hi to me. Well, she doesn't. And we were in different stations.

So I was like maybe she doesn't want to like interrupt me or whatever. So the whole class, I'm like, this is weird. It feels like she's avoiding eye contact with me every time I try. You know when you're trying to get somebody's attention and you keep looking at them thinking you guys are going to like. And then you never do? But then it feels like she kept like avoiding it. So then you're like, what did I do to her? Or yeah, or then I'm like, what if it's not her?

She was wearing a hat. But this girl always wears a hat. So then finally, we were switching stations and she was putting her weight up and I needed that weight. So I was like, this is my chance. So I went up to her and I like walked right in front of her and I like, I think I put my hand up like, hey. And then she made a face at me and she said something like, how are you today or something like this girl. She didn't know who I was at all. So I just did one of those things.

So I was like, hey, oh, I'll take those weights. Don't mind me. And she was like, how are you today? And I was like, oh, great, thanks. I'll take those weights. And then the rest of the class, I'm like, did she think I was trying to say hi to her? Did she think that or did she whatever? Was that awkward?

And then as we were leaving, I'm like, this girl's never going to think of you again. Ever. Until she sees me in class again. But it was embarrassing in the moment. And I told myself a story of you should be ashamed. And then I. That you were trying to be nice to say hi to someone that you thought they were. and then they weren't.

Like it's not a big deal. But that also, but we build it up. Yes. And it comes from one of my, uh, I wouldn't say greatest fears, but most common fears,

because this wouldn't be the biggest deal in the world. It's people not remembering who I am. So saying hi to somebody and then being like, do I know you? Which I've done before. Yeah. Do you know that when you're meeting someone like a, uh,

you are, how do I say this? Like you're not meeting that. Let's say you've already. met them, but you don't know if you have. Yeah. And there's confusion. You can say, and so saying, oh, nice to meet you, you say, good to see you.

Maybe that's what that girl said to me. Well, that's just like a tip to have in your back pocket of like, oh, I don't really know how to handle this. You can be like, oh, good to see you. And that way it covers all your bases because then if you say, oh, nice to meet you, then they're like, we've met like three times. And then you're like, oh, shoot, that's right. But if you say good to see you, like you're still saying good to see you.

It's like you're not saying good to see you again. You say just good to see you. Yeah. Because if you say good to see you again and they're like, we've never met. And it's like, oh. So if anybody ever says good to see you to you, they don't know if you're using the trick. They might be using the trick. Speaking of embarrassing things, did you see that thing on Instagram where rumor Willis was

talking about bathing with her older siblings? Which I'm not embarrassed for her at all. Like if that's what they're into or that's what they do in their family. She's not embarrassed. But I think I just was thinking how I would feel bathing with my older siblings and I would feel embarrassed getting naked. Yeah. There'd be some shame coming up if you, yeah. Yeah, I just didn't know if you saw that.

And it just popped into my head of like, hmm, is that weird? Yeah. I'm, um, let me see. I'm going to pull up. I don't want to say, because I don't know. the circumstances of this. Just blanket statement, it does sound, um, interesting. Interesting. It's interesting. Yes. And I have some questions. So, okay, she said, okay, it says, rumor Willis said she still takes bath with her adult sisters. She said, that's just the kind of house I grew up in.

People may think that's crazy and weird, but I don't. But how old is she? They're adults. Like 30? Yeah, I think. What? How big is you? How big is you? your bathtub. Good question. I imagine they have very wealthy parents. Maybe it's large. But also why? Yeah. I could, yeah. Those are the questions. Why is probably a judgmental question. We need to know. I want more information. But when I also was thinking about too, if you needed your sister to bathe you, that's not weird. No, no. Like I bathed my parents when they were sick, which felt weird. I was talking about this with my boyfriend the other day actually how I don't nobody should have to like bade their dad's yeah area but I did and we got through it you know yeah it's just and it's not a high

yeah but it's also not the lowest of lows I mean pretty low it's pretty low even for him like there was a lot that he had to uh speaking of shame yeah that was hard so that's not concerning that's just one of those things that's it's like tough or I know that when I was in high school I broke my collarbone my mom had to help me shower I had a lot of shame and my mom was like Catherine I birthed you I'm like yeah I was a it's very different I'm like 17 would you think you could handle her bathing you now oh I guess you have a husband yeah Patrick would probably be the one to do that yeah honestly I don't you're lucky yeah you have like a good boyfriend would bathe you well we're not

there yet. I don't know. Maybe. Okay. I mean, I guess he could, but TBD. Okay. Well, who would you rather have bath you, me? My sister? Oh, your sister. Me. Yeah. Yeah. If I had to pick. But then if my boyfriend and I get married, then I'll have that locked in. Although, he is way older than me. So let's be honest, I'll probably bathing him before he's bathing me. But he's okay. He's 80 years old. Sorry. If he's listening right now, which is. probably not but he's watching us on youtube's what he's doing that is right i'm going to make him subscribe uh so he's uh i'm 44 so we're eight right now because of our window we're eight years apart and then in a few months we'll be like nine that's not that well that's all that he's he's

52 which i now have rumor willis's age since we were talking about she's 36 years old okay they're they're they're adults well into their yeah But hey, if anybody listening, if you bathe with your adult siblings, we want to know. Reach out to us. Tell us what that's about. Maybe we're, maybe we're missing out. I'm excited to get into the gifts and impairments of shame and guilt. But we mentioned earlier about mixing them up.

And that's something that I do often. And I want to share something that my therapist once told me. She said that shame is guilt's dramatic cousin. in that shows up uninvited. It makes everything personal. I love that. Yeah, my therapist is good. I mean, you're good too, but.

Thanks. But you couldn't be my therapist. But if I could hire you, I would. But is this a therapist that I know? No. Okay. I was going to say, well, she's good anyway. And I learned everything.

She's great. She's great. But this is a different one. I'm sure that the other one would say this too. But I'll say it again for those in the back, or if you're listening on YouTube low volume. Shame is guilt's dramatic. cousin that shows up uninvited and makes everything personal because shame is where it gets real

real personal and beyond dramatic it takes the guilt next level well so how i've always explained it i'm going to steal this so thank you is guilt says i did something bad where shame would say i am bad and that's where that like dramatic like it makes it personal yeah i like that too i felt i think both shame and guilt on Friday. What happened? My son had a track meet and I didn't, I did not want to go. Track meets are tough sometimes. They're long. Yeah. And you're real long. And it had been a long week. And we switch on Fridays. So with our co-parenting, we go Friday to Friday. And it's like they leave my house Friday morning for school. And then Friday afternoon, they go home to his house or vice versa. So got them off to school Friday.

Well, and then I'm at work doing my thing. Then it was a long day. And it just was like, I just really did not want to go. And he's racing for five minutes because he does the mile and he is fast. So. He does the mile. In five minutes and stop. 30 seconds or something.

Are you serious? Yeah. Does he win? No. No. Some kids run it in four minutes and 45 seconds. Yes. And they are hauling.

I don't I don't know how they're doing it but I knew that I would feel bad if I didn't go first of all it was far away and I knew Ben was taking him it was fine but I was like oh part of me is like I don't really have to go like this is one of those things where I guess I don't have to but even having that thought made me feel bad so then I also was like okay if I don't go like I'm a bad mom I'm I'm a terrible mom like I need to go so ultimately I decided I was going to feel best if I went but I had the thoughts, all the thoughts that are like guilt and shame because now I'm a bad mom. Well, you had the guilt that helped you actually do what made you. Right. It motivated me in the right direction. Like, I don't want to feel guilty because I know that it will mean a lot for him if Ben and I are both there. And Ben and I can't always both be there, especially when there's multiple track meets in the week, depending on a week night, if there's work stuff going on, we'll tag team.

And I know not every parent listening can be at every kid's sporting event. Like I even think of my boyfriend. Like he's got three kids. And in his situation, he's the only one available. And it's hard to get to all their stuff. They have some grandparents in town. So luckily, you know, they can come in or other family friends. But a lot of times they're riding with friends and he's not able to be there.

So I understand that for a lot of parents, like, oh, don't feel bad. Not everybody can always be there. But I did. I felt bad. That got me to go. But then I felt like if I didn't go, I was now a bad. person. The punishment was exaggerated. Yeah. Where it was really like, oh man, I, I probably, if I think about it, that would have been the right thing that would make me feel the best

versus this cancels out everything I've ever done for him in my life. Right. And then also I didn't want it to be about me feeling better. I really wanted to be about just showing up for him. Yeah. Like that's what it should be about at the end of the day. And you know what? He was so excited that I was there. And he ended up running two events. And he was like, are you going to be able to stay for the next? And of course I did. But then it was like two hours later. And then I was driving home. And then speaking out of my boyfriend and his son had a basketball game like 30 minutes away. So then we went to that. What do you do for two hours in the middle of the? Well, I paced the parking lot a little bit trying to work on a video that I was doing for Instagram.

And but then my phone was going to die. So then I had to go in my car and set. it down on the little charger thing because I don't have the wire so I couldn't work on it. It's like in the console. So I'm getting a wire. What is he doing? Stevenson? Like, hanging out with his friends like in the middle of the track.

And then they set up, they start setting up the hurdles. So then I call my boyfriend and I'm like, hey, is there like a sequence of events? Because I don't understand the order of things and because he was a athlete, like a decathlete, which is every track event. And he broke a record in high school for hurdles. actually he still holds the record remember he's 52 so this is a long time can he still hurdle that people have not

broken his record he doesn't I mean I'm sure he could but he doesn't run much these days but it's just fun fact about him is that he's got that record so I'm like Uncle Rico I'm like show me what you got Who's Uncle Rico? Uncle Rico from Napoleon Dynamite

Actually if he was Why is this not bringing a bell? I've seen that movie He was throwing the football and he's like still thinks he's this football star No. Have you seen it? So my memory is not good, but I have seen it. I've seen it like probably 10 times. Well, I'm just surprised you haven't heard the Uncle Rico reference, but that's totally fine if you haven't. I don't feel shame about that. Don't feel shame about that because that helps me know I probably need to explain my references. Because if my boyfriend was Uncle Rico, what he would be doing if he were. That is like I would show up at his house and he would have hurdles set up in his driveway and he would be running them.

him like that would be Uncle Rico living in that so thankfully we're not living in that heyday although move forward if we do go to the high school he went to which that's where his kids go you can see the record have you seen the wall like plaque on the wall yeah and people talk about it I'm like what's it like we actually ran into his track coach somewhere and they're like I think think we got a good possibility to break your record this year. So like a good, like a student that might break it. Play, did he run track in college? He did. Yeah. At UVA. Oh. Wow. No Olympics? No Olympics. Did he think about it? Good question. I haven't asked him that. I'll ask. Okay. Okay. Did you ever think about the Olympics? You have that record from high school. Not what that means.

I don't know. But so back to him being a decathalie, he knows all the events because he did all the events. and I wanted to know how long I might be waiting because I was like, is there a universal? Is this the order we go in? And he was like, well, typically, but I don't know about junior high, but for sure in high school and college. So anyway, two hours later, I was able to leave.

But I'm so glad I went and Stevenson was so excited. And for me, it was the right thing to do for him, not for my guilt and shame, I guess. Well, it's attached to what you think is, what you know is going to make him happy to. It's okay for it to be for, both of you guys. Okay. That's not a bad motivator. So you're giving me permission? Yeah, that goes to like the, it's okay to have those like selfish, selfish motivations sometimes where it's, I know being a good

mom, part of that is bringing joy to my kids' lives and my kids knowing that their mom is supportive of them. So that's mutually beneficial. That's okay. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's my little example because I just had that scenario on Friday. Okay. So now let's get into the, to the meat of things. Yeah. So do you know that analogy? Can you explain it to me? So you have a plate. Oh, I'm thinking then there's the bones and then there's like the meat. Oh, I'm thinking of like a plate and there's like the vegetable. Oh, maybe that's where that does come from. Like the meat and potato. Like we just we just went through the sides. Yeah. Like we started with the salad and then we just had like I just served up a little side dish with that story. And then now you're going to get to the meat. That's what I was thinking. Okay. You always thought that was about the bones? Well, you start talking, I'm going to look up where that comes from. Because we'll start with shame.

We'll start there and get into the core need of that. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media.

Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast.

It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So, if you've ever supported me, or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and host of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we, we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one

finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth with John Hobriant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here?

We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about, like, I'm going to get rich. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money,

this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the Aidhart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Okay, so back to if you're new, little refresher, we're going through all the eight core feelings, and we're talking about the need attached to them, the impairment, if you avoid the feeling. I'm just laughing at like, if anybody's new.

Why? Why is that funny? I don't know. It's just like, maybe, maybe they stumbled upon us, like just this episode. We're on YouTube. They could have been the next video that came up and they look fun. You're right. You're right.

No, I know. Or they're, if they've downloaded, because I guess if I'm starting a podcast, okay, true, true, confession. You act like we can't have new listeners. I've listened. Well, to, to. It's our third episode. Yeah, but if this was four things, which this is the feeling things is the rebranded version of that, this would be episode like 6153 not just the third so you're right but see I feel like did people go back

to the beginning and start or did they just pick up wherever I do not go back to the beginning of a podcast okay unless I run out of episodes and then I'm like oh I want to listen to more so I'm going to go back 650 if somebody was like hey I started listening to this new podcast okay and this is the episode and this is the next episode okay so if you are new welcome hi we are running through Are you trying to shame me? No. No, I just thought it was funny of like, I know we have our loyal, amazing listeners that have been with us a long time.

And of course, there's going to be new ones finding us. And I want that. I guess I just think it's funny. Sometimes we're like, if you're brand new here, which I hope. We need to act as if that's very normal. I'm sorry I derailed that. We just got one million new followers on YouTube. Right.

Yeah. Act as if we must start from the beginning. It's actually blowing up so much so that I think we probably should slow down. Oh, you think? Okay. Yeah. It's a little, were we watching someone on Instagram the other day where she was saying that? Okay.

We have to sidebar this for a second because I feel like I don't know that I believe her. I just feel like sometimes people say things on Instagram and it's not real. And they're acting like this is their strategy and what they're doing. They're like, things just blew up for me so fast. And I didn't know how to handle it. So I had to like regroup or things. I don't know. I believe, this is why I believe about that, a video.

So we were watching a video that was giving a strategy for Instagram. She was talking about what she was doing. What I believe is true is that she blew up really fast and she was like overwhelmed. She's a normal, she's just a regular person with a regular job. She wasn't an influencer. She posted a couple videos that just like she went from a what a normal like 500 followers, thousand followers to like 30,000 within like a month, I think. And then now she had over half a million, if not more.

So I think she did blow up really fast and didn't know how to handle it and didn't know how to keep up with the content that she felt pressured to make. But I don't believe is that she did what she said she was doing. Because we tried it and it didn't work. Yeah. But you know how we didn't want to believe back in the day that boy bands were curated and put together. What are you talking about?

Do you want to live in the program? What are you talking about? You know, they were put together. Because they were best friends. No. See? That's what I'm talking about. I just feel like sometimes I wonder if Instagram has these people and they're like,

oh, this creator could be something like we're going to blow them up and we're going to make this a thing. And this is going to be our local project and we make it seem like she was this nothing that went to something. And, you know, just like we thought, Jess and Timmer, Lake and his boys just got together and formed a band, you know, and they were, they were, Lou Perlman did it all. There's a machine behind it. Yes. That's just, that's just my theory.

Would you want to be one of those people? I mean, no, I don't know that I, that, that's my lane. I mean, if they wanted to close us up, that, that, that would be helpful. But I don't know what the expectations are with her of that. But her content is really good. But she's handled the blow up well. I'll just say. I think she's handled it well.

But from what you can see. There is a narrative that it was like a lot. And I'm just this overnight success. And really there might be more to it. Now there are true like people that have had something for years and years and years and years and they genuinely do organically blow up. Like that happens. Yeah.

I just don't know that that's the vibe I'm getting from that. And she was feeding us these hacks that I think are just a. trick to get us to do them. Yeah, we got got. Because we tried and we, it didn't work. Not even close. Okay. Do you think I'm rubbing off on you and you're becoming a little bit more skeptical?

Maybe you are. Because there are so many people that I used to believe and fall for and love. And now I'm like, it's like I catch, I see things more. And I'm like, see things more clearly. It's like I put my cat glasses on. Cat vision. I have now have, yes, therapy. have vision because you're skeptical of most everybody yes and i learned that by liking people and then

being like wait a second you tricked me so you tricked me speaking of that um who's the guy that was behind in sync you said his name oh lou perlman i watched that documentary did you watch it yeah i forgot what it was called like lou perlman's a nasty nasty man he's a dirty dog Is that what it's called? No, it was called like Dirty Pop or something. Oh, yeah. That's close. Okay.

Okay. Or that. Dirty pop. Two things. I didn't finish it because after I think, what, halfway through, it was a couple episodes. I got the point. But that was one of those things where it looks on the outside like they're having the time of their life. And on the inside they're not.

So maybe that girl is not having the time of her life on the inside either, you know, who looks like she has all this success, but she might be really struggling. The other part is. And then at night, Instagram's. like locking her in a room and being like film this content or like those dancers you know those dancers that are in that cult and they look like they're having all fun dancing and then turns out who knows when the camera's not on who knows that was another documentary that yeah i watched that whole thing but what i was going to say is what i learned and why i really took away from dirty pop was the blimps

Oh yeah. Yeah, he was in like aviation and blimps before boy dance go. I don't know. When's the last time you saw a blimp? I actually wrote it in a blimp. Not too long ago actually. Oh, okay. Well, you're working a spurs. The good year blimp. I got to take the kids up in it for work. Well, they were saying that he like maybe crashed all his blimps to get insurance money or something. I don't think I was in his blimp, but I was in a blimp. But blimp, blimp, blimp, blimp. Blimp, blimp. Blim blimp. It's such a weird word. They were everywhere and now they're nowhere. And also, they were like a big money. I mean, the advertising dollars for a blimp, that's where he made all his money.

Yeah. If we could have got our hands on one of those, put feeling things on it. Oh, gosh, yeah. That'd be nice. People would be like, what is that? It was just a weird. The fact that those were,

that the blimp was in the, and sync documentary was interesting to me. But it made me think I've never I haven't seen a blunt in a long time. Yeah. Well, I got the, I know the origin of get to the meat of it. Okay. Because we're about to get to the meat. And it means to go to the most important part of the problem, just as it means

the most important part of the meal. The expression is rooted in the idea that the meat of a meal, like the main course, is the most substantial and important part. So it was right. Although I feel like bathing with your adult siblings is pretty substantial. You know? So is that the meat of our podcast? Definitely not.

While the potatoes or side dishes are less significant. No. Rumor Willis bathing with their adults and ones is definitely the potatoes. And then like my track story, side dish, you know, tortilla squat. That could be meat though. That's not meat, but that's a special sauce. Or it's a tortilla. It holds it all together.

It's the wrap that holds it all together. So should we get to the meat? Shame. Also, the name of the documentary is Dirty Pop, the Boy Band's. scam. Backstreet boys, that was in there too, right? Yeah. He was with all this.

Yeah. So shame. Okay. All right. So shame. Like I was saying, if you're new here, we're going to talk about the need behind every feeling, the impairment if you don't feel it and the gift if you do. So shame is a confusing one because a lot of people will say, how can that ever be good?

But there's two types of shame. There's toxic shame and there's a healthy version of shame. is the way I really view it. So the need around it is some kind of attunement, whether that's attunement with other people or attumment with self. And when I say that, do you know what attumment means? Sometimes I think we use being in touch with. Yeah. Yeah. Diled in? Diled in. Yeah. Yes. I just phonetically like started to break it up and then go back into, you know, what's the language Latin? I broke it down root wise. And then I, What's the Latin root of attunement?

What? Didn't you take Latin? No. Oh, who was I? No, have I convinced you in some way that I have? Well, I think that people used to do that instead of taking like Spanish or... Oh, yeah, no. People still take it.

I think actually one of my boyfriend's son takes Latin. But I was just picturing tune, dialed in, attunement. Ooh. I put tune two together. You're smart. Okay, attunement. So, and then if we are not feeling... If we're kind of trying to avoid the shame and not really sitting with it, even though it's

uncomfortable, what happens is that ends up turning into like a toxic self-attack. That's where the like, I am bad comes in, where we start kind of tearing ourselves apart. That's toxic shame. Okay. That's the kind of shame that really isn't helpful. If we can sit with our shame and tolerate it, that's where we get healthy shame. And that helps us know that we're limited. and that we're human.

So I'm not going to say that shame is my favorite feeling to feel out of the ones that are uncomfortable, but it also is one of, I mean, they're all necessary. It is one of the most helpful because it reminds us that we're human, we're limited, and it reminds us that we need people. So if I am not allowing myself to acknowledge that I need people, there's going to be like a wall between me and you. also, if I don't acknowledge that I'm needing people, I don't allow other people's gifts to shine. So even in this pairing, there's things that you do better than I do and there's things that I might

do better than you or there's things that I might know more about and there's things that you might know more about. And by sitting in our shame, which says I am limited, we allow each other's stuff to come up and shine. Yeah. I love that. I'm looking at our feelings wheel and the other words that are associated with shame. Humility, insecure, weak, exposed, embarrassment, disgraced, unworthy, disapproval, unlovable. Unlovable, that hurts.

That's a lot of the, yes, go to the gifts of shame wheel. And what's on there? The gifts of shame. Containment, humanity, humility, and respect. Yeah, there's respect and also there is that story. I don't know if we talked about it on here or not about the mom. Shannon gave it to us. Didn't she, the mom that asked for the salt?

Salt. Oh, yes. Okay. So it was a neighbor that didn't have as much. It looks like picture two neighbors. I'm going to paraphrase the story. So there's two neighbors. One neighbor has more than the other.

And so the people with more, the mom of that. family went over and asked the people, the neighbor that had less, for salt because salt is something they had that was probably a resource they could spare. And the kids of the house with more, they were sort of like, why did you go ask them for salt? And the mom said, I know they may need to come to us for things. And I want them to feel comfortable doing so. So if there's this mutual respect of like, I am going to come ask you for something, then you can feel safe coming to ask me for something. Yeah. It's just like this reciprocity. Yeah. I feel respected when people come and ask for some, I mean, I don't always have it, right? But when somebody comes to me and asks for something,

because of whatever reason, there's respect there where they value you. That feels really good. And if we are not allowing ourselves to sit in that healthy shame, knowing that we're limited, we're never going to be able to offer that to somebody. It's like, I'm going to be on an island by myself. And I think a lot of times the toxic shame happens for people when they grow up in households where, and this is not done in a malicious way at all, but if we come from like an overprotective or overbearing household or a household where things are done for you, things that you probably could do for yourself eventually or learn how to do, this thing happens where then you are out on your own and you didn't learn how to do, right and then you also didn't learn how to ask so then you just feel this well I guess I'm dumb that I can't do this or think about like I know this for me with finances and I know you've talked about this I've just always said to myself I'm never going to understand that and like when I get married somebody's going to take care of that for me or like my dad's going to explain it or something

like I don't need to know and then when I was single unmarried and until I was 34, I avoided it because I didn't want to have to ask for help because I was like, why should know this? And so then you're embarrassed. Yeah. And so there's that like, and I remember meeting with a financial advisor for the first time and saying like, I feel so stupid that I don't know this. And he was like, you're not, how would you know this?

And that's what we're here for. And I'm going to take my knowledge and help you, just like if I was coming to you with for therapy, you're going to be able to help me. I thought that was a nice way of putting that. I like that. But I'm not his therapist. Oh. Mostly because I dated him.

But also really, could you? Like, could you be the therapist to your finance? No, no. Like legally, that would be bad. That would be a mess. That would be bad. Yeah, especially with the stock market. Oh.

You're like, that's my money that you're stressed out about losing. So for years, I carried shame towards my body when I was trying to get pregnant. I'm trying to think of what you're Ben and I actually started trying for a baby, but it wasn't explainable. So we went to fertility doctors and we tried to get answers. We did certain tests and we didn't know. So I just would put that pressure on me. and I think Ben did the same, like, well, then it must be me.

Or it could have just been that he was in the Air Force and he was deployed a lot. And, you know, sometimes it takes a lot of tries. And maybe when I was ovulating, he was gone. But, I mean, we were trying to do all the things right on during the 60 days he was home. Because he would be 60 days deployed 60 days home. So those 60 days home, what, you have two chances of getting pregnant. And we weren't able to. So I just felt like my body was broken.

and a lot of my friends around me were all getting pregnant, and my sister has four biological children. And so to me, being her sister, I'm like, well, what's wrong with my body? My body's broken. My body is bad. What's wrong with me? When we, truth is we really didn't know. And no, I wasn't broken.

And we had a different story for how we were going to become parents, which eventually was adoption. and that is beautiful. I still do have certain thoughts sometimes. Like, I wonder if I could still ever get pregnant and have a baby. But then I guess if I did, then would we know like, oh, so maybe it wasn't me. Like I would have, would I, do I want that? Maybe just for that validation of like, I'm not broken.

Because for so long, I, of, like, growing up, like, that's what I wanted to be. It was a stay-at-home mom. Like I just wanted to get pregnant and then stay home with my kids. And thankfully, like, I have a whole career now. And because that's what happened for me. If you ended up a stay-at-home mom, that's not what I'm saying. I probably shouldn't have to clear. I thought that's.

Well, I said, thankfully. I just, I guess thankfully I have a career and I didn't have all my eggs in that basket or I'd still be sitting around waiting. Like, what am I doing? But I was able to have something that I could focus on. And then we were able to adopt. but I know that there's other people out there that might be in a similar situation with fertility, and I just don't want you to be hating on your body.

Yeah. Or hating yourself or feeling like you're broken. And I think it's easier sometimes for us to jump into the shame bucket before we jump into the sad bucket or the fear bucket or name any other emotion. maybe that has to do with how we grew up and the messages we were given as humans or really just as women. It's really easy to jump in there versus I'm really sad this isn't going this way.

I'm glad you said that about the messaging because it's like you feel like growing up like this is the one thing you were designed to do and you're not able to do it. And you're supposed to do it. You're the one that's supposed to do it. Like if we were on some show like I don't want it to be

what I'm Maid's tail like I don't want it to be that you know but like I would be not just okay maybe it's not that or if we was way back if we were getting weeded out I'd be weeded out isn't that what they did in hand I didn't watch it because I couldn't deal with it like

I stopped watching it eventually but I'm just like going way back in time I mean handmade's tail is really freaky to even think that because that's like now and what if it looked like way back then but I'm just saying like way way way back I wouldn't have been a part of what was desirable because I couldn't. But there's more to you than that. Yeah. Like way, way, way, way back then, I could have done a podcast.

Just kidding. There was no technology. It would be live shows. I could have been a town crier and I could have stood in the middle of the town square and then like, you know, told jokes. You could have been one of the, maybe that's the same thing. But when they would all come to the, I think, have been Roman times in the Coliseum and they would perform a show. Oh, like I would put on a play.

Yes. Oh, I could have been a Fesbian. No, you couldn't. I think only men could do that actually. Oh, my God. Right? Probably. They even played the women characters. Yes. So, okay, well, you would have changed the course for history. I could have been a, I don't know. Basketweaver. Yes. Maybe I could have helped clothe the pregnant women. Yeah. And brush their hair. Like, why did you? They made me think of that scene in Dirty Dancing. My sister and I reenact that sometimes when she brushing her hair and she was like, what she said?

She was like, you've really pretty hair, baby. I've ever seen that movie? Wait, you've never seen Dirty Dancing. Oh my gosh. You should just assume I haven't seen the movie. Who's brushing whose hair? The sister.

Oh, she calls her baby. Baby is her name. It's her character. Francis is her real name. Francis. That's where nobody puts baby in a corner comes from. I thought that he just called her baby. Or she says something like,

You want me to do your hair baby? I can't remember exactly. Because my brain just kind of popped to that scene. I don't know why I tell you. My brain goes places when we're talking and it's like completely not related to what we're talking about. And I'm like, brain, stop it. You're trying to focus. Because I really want to focus on what we're saying.

And then that's where I go. And then now I talk about it and I'm taking everybody else's brain there. And it's like, why'd I derail? That's also like the fun of having a conversation with you. Is it fun though? Because I see videos on Instagram of like, this is what it's like talking to my ADHD friend. And the people that are, what do you call it, like neurotypical? Yeah.

God. They sit there looking at their ADHD friend, like, get to the point. Like what is going on? The only time it's frustrating. And I say this is I do it too is when you're trying to get something done. Where I frustrate myself. Otherwise, it's like, oh, we bring so much diversity into this conversation. Oh, yeah.

We're so diverse. Yeah? Yeah. Maybe I would be able to tell jokes. Kermit the Frog didn't exist then, but I just had a Kermit the Frog joke that popped into my head. That is kind of funny. You want to know what it is?

Are you going to do it in his voice? A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me. Clever Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football,

or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that

not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told,

and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of a science. the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other

plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty. that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the I-HeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth with John Hobriant,

I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about, like, I'm going to get rich.

That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John, Brian from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Kermit the Frog didn't exist then, but I just had a Kermit the Frog joke that popped into my head that it's kind of funny.

You want to know what it is? Are you going to do it in his voice? No. Why not? What did Kermit the Frog say at his puppet? Because he's a puppet. So he has a puppeteer, the person at his puppeteer's funeral. Did Kermit the Frog say at his puppeteer's funeral?

Not a word. That's good. His puppeteers said. That's a joke and a riddle. Ooh. You know? We're diverse, remember? Okay.

Any other thoughts on shame? Shame and guilt we've within each other. So we can still talk about shame as we move on too. Okay. We can move on to guilt. Okay. So guilt also very helpful. Guilt helps us stay in alignment with ourselves.

We have to know what our... Alignment is my word of the year. Oh, yeah. So have you been feeling a lot of guilt this year? No. Maybe not because you're just so in alignment that the guilt isn't coming up. I'm feeling in alignment mostly unless my son has to track me. That makes sense.

Yeah. So the need around guilt a lot of times has to do with forgiveness. It could be ourselves or forgiveness with somebody else or a group of people or whatever. So when we're unaware of our guilt and we don't allow ourselves to actually acknowledge that we feel guilty, that moves us into the toxic shame realm as well. And that's where these are, which I guess your therapist said, cousins. They want to be best friends, but we need them to have like a little bit of separation. That's like our eyebrows.

Sister, was it? We want them to be the same. Like so many people are like, I want my eyebrows to be identical. but brows are cousins, not sisters, not twins. Brows are the same as guilt and shame. Right. Okay. So it's easier to.

Especially mine because I have to draw mine on every day now. They look good. Thank you. It's only 30 minutes. We don't want ourselves to feel guilt. What we will do a lot of times also is we'll deflect or we'll get really defensive and then what we don't do is live in our values. But then we'll excuse it and we'll blame a lot of.

with showing up in ways, as I'm describing this, I'm like, this is nobody that would ever want to be hanging out with. But we all are going to do it at times. So there's that. We can take some of that shame and pressure off of us. And then if you are feeling your guilt, your guilt helps show you what's important to you, what your values are. And it helps you maintain relationships too with yourself and other people.

Guilt says, hey, that wasn't really what you wanted to do. maybe you might want to go talk to them and ask for forgiveness or ask what you could have done better and you can also do that for yourself yeah i like that gift that's why you were saying with the the guilt about when you go to track me because i felt that that's great information because now i get to show up how i want to yeah if we don't yeah if we don't ever feel guilt is there because we're avoiding it and then we're living in shame and also not being who you truly are or we are So like psychopaths don't feel shame or guilt. I would imagine not.

Sociopaths? Yeah. Both of them. Yeah. Makes me think at the time that guy said I was a sociopath. See, but you're not. Wait, what did you say when you're like, I feel empathy? A little backstory here is somebody in our life.

Not in my life. He was in your life. Don't get it twisted. He was. Somebody in our life. said I was a sociopath-ish or acting sociopathic or something like that. And I had to Google exactly what that meant because I didn't know the difference between the psychopath.

And I'm like, okay. And I want to lean in. If I'm having that, I want to know so I can fix it. So I'm like, what is a sociopath? And it said one of the things under there is they have no regard for the law. Oh, that's what it was. And I said, and I said, I have regard for the law. I'm not.

I'm not a sense of that. Yeah. I regard for the law. You do like to follow rules. And you're a good person. I, what is funny about that, was that in a,

that was in an email, right? Uh-huh. You would be the last person in my life that I would, one of the last people that I would say has any qualities of that. So for somebody to call you that, I think that's when I lost it and I cried. Okay, because I sent you the email and you're like, I can't even read this.

I'm crying. Shannon's typing me notes right now about psychopath. She said they see no shame or guilt even when the person's behavior was obviously hurtful. Which is that they're, I wouldn't call this a superpower, but that's why they're able to do what they do because they don't have those feelings. Which it feels very foreign to us.

Right, so then are we supposed to have grace for that? No. Okay, no. No. What do you mean by that? No. Well, I guess I feel bad that they can't feel. I know that's their responsibility,

but what if like they literally can't feel? let's take out serial killers and stuff hurt murder like maybe they never because there's plenty of sociopaths or psychopaths that haven't killed people well use the example of like a narcissist who like might not have any empathy right and i when i really boil it down to the root of their problem i do feel bad and i try to have some grace but there's also boundaries so can you have grace and boundaries you have compassion without forgiveness and get freaking annoyed yeah so compassion without forgiveness. Compassion allows me to understand. Like imagine somebody in your life who has really hurt you, but maybe somebody in their life really hurt them. A parent. This happens a lot

with people who have parents that have caused them a lot of pain, whether it's abuse or neglect or something like that. We can have compassion and say, I get it. Nobody taught you. And you are doing the best you could. And I don't forgive you because it was not okay. And I deserve better. So compassion without forgiveness. But shouldn't we always forgive? Ish? Personally, I think no. Okay. But that's not, I mean, it's up to you, you're allowed to. Well, I don't know, just going back to, I mean, just generally speaking, like, maybe you don't have to forgive them. Religious stuff aside. So let's set that. We don't need to go down that path. But even just the saying that's pretty popular about that of like, it's like drinking poison. It's like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

I think that can be reversed and forgiving somebody can actually feel like or being forced to forgive somebody can feel like drinking poison. Because a lot of times when we forgive people, it is forced forgiveness where it feels like it's the shame. It's like it feels like I have to do this. I should do this. Everybody's telling me that I should do this. But it doesn't feel right. And I imagine somebody who has abused you or hurt you or something like that. It's, yeah, I can have compassion for humanity, maybe not for that person, depending on the situation. I'm using a really extreme situation. I can have compassion for humanity and I can heal and move forward and not forgive this person.

Okay. I think that is fair and possible. But also, if you want to. to work towards forgiveness, there's no shame in that either, if that's something you want. I just like to send a message that you don't have to do that to heal. Right. And forgiveness is a very, very, very, very personal journey and choice. So just giving options, I think, is helpful.

You can, you don't have to. They'll be okay if you don't. Yeah. Depending on the situation. Depending. Okay. Okay. What are we talking about guilt?

We're talking about guilt? We were talking about guilt. I think we were talking about guilt. I had the same thing with guilt, though, with my body and not being able to get pregnant. So the shame was, just so we can keep practicing the difference between the shame was, I am broken. The guilt was I can't give my husband or us a baby, like his family name biologically. You know, like he really wanted a baby, as did I. And I felt guilty that we weren't able to do that. But what, I think this is where shame and guilt get confused. In that space, what were you doing wrong that was living outside of your value system? Well, nothing outside of my value system, but I still felt guilt. Like if it was my fault, then I felt guilty. But we didn't know. But yeah.

So I put it on myself that it was my fault. Yeah. Versus, because I'm thinking about. Because there are people that do have the fertility doctor say, actually it is your body. Like some women are like, it's your fallopian tubes or it's your, whatever. whatever, and then with, or the guy, it's like, it's your sperm situation. You know, so somebody may have that situation. We were left in the unknown.

So at times, I felt that guilt of like, Ben married me. And now I, if he had married somebody else, maybe he could have gotten the baby. Yeah. But you're creating a whole story. I know. Yeah. But don't we do that even? Yeah.

And also, because I'm thinking about myself in this, too. Patrick and I are trying to conceive and it's not been the easiest road and it is because of something with my body but I didn't do anything to like I didn't do anything I just was born into this body and the world works in mysterious ways and I have this thing and I noticed myself apologizing to him and saying I'm really sorry because of the things that like we've had to do like it's not to have been as fun and like even silly things are I'm like, he used to go test his sperm and we were just like laughing about it. Like, I'm sorry you have to do that.

That's really awkward. Right. And I'm sorry that I have to pay for this doctor's appointment. And then I was like, he was like, it's okay. And then I had to have that moment of like, no offense, but why am I apologizing to you? Because I didn't do anything. And that's where I can sit in the humility part, which it feels wrong to say shame, but healthy shame. I can sit in the humility part that says, like, I am very limited.

there are things that are limited about me and I need extra help. So I need extra doctor's appointments or I need, like I made my mom go with me to a doctor's appointment the other day because I didn't want to go by myself. Like I need help. And that actually is in a weird way bringing me closer together to people than pulling me farther apart. Yeah. And we want to be there for you.

I know your mom wanted to be by your side no matter what. And Patrick wants to be there and your friends. Like we want to rally around. Or if you ever need to text me and vent to me about how this feels like a chore. Yeah. Like I get that. Like it feels like the romantic part of it. Feels like you're taking it away from that.

Yeah. It's like, hey. But I know a lot of people go through this. It's like, okay, I just checked the calendar. I just took this test. And it looks like we need to do it at 202 p.m. Can you be here? And it feels very mechanical.

Yeah. And then less like. Mm-hmm. Whoopsie. Yeah. And I think that's also where I was saying earlier, maybe you were feeling sadness or fear. And that's where I had to be like,

why am I apologizing to you? Mm-hmm. I actually don't feel guilt about this. I was, I think I've been living in a world that has set me up to think that I'm supposed to. So I automatically went there. But really, I'm really sad that has to be this way because you want to just be like,

oh, whoopsie, you got pregnant. And I, there's fear. like we have no idea what's going to happen. And with you, it sounds like there could have been fear. You didn't know what was going on. No, so many unknowns. I mean, and it started to take a toll on our relationship. And then eventually we decided to go the adoption route. But even with that, I was on board with that before Ben. And then he kind of had this aha moment where he's like, yeah, this could be really beautiful. And it's obviously what God had in store for us. So, I see that now, like looking back.

Yeah, when you're in it, it's really hard to see. But it's like we've talked before about the mosaic. Like we can't see everything. We can't see the big picture. We're looking at the up close piece of the tile. And the more we get to step back little by little, we get to see the beautiful piece of art, which is our lives.

Yeah. Yeah. And something to remember, and obviously I have to remind myself this too, is just because you didn't get what you wanted doesn't mean you got nothing. And I think that is helpful in the moment. Like in the moment, I'm not getting what I want, but it doesn't mean I have nothing.

There's so many other parts of my life that I can lean into. And then also, in retrospect, you can look. It's like, just because I didn't get what I originally wanted, doesn't mean I didn't get anything. Like, look, I do have this family. I do have kids. And I do have a career. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I want to reach across the chair and hug you. I noticed that's I start tearing up and then you started tearing up and I was like, oh. Yeah. But we're too, we're, we can't move. We're on a set because we're on YouTube. Yeah. So don't move anything because we're on our set. But maybe we need to, what do they call that in, um, when you break the fourth wall? Which, what does that really mean? Well, like your people are seeing behind the scenes. Like they would be.

we'd be breaking the fourth wall. Like they get to see like some of the behind the scenes. It's not like the perfect like curated shot. Oh, yeah. So maybe we just like, screw this setup that we've done perfectly. Shannon would not like that. Bring in the other camera that shows everything.

I know. It's like everything's like taped perfectly. So we know exactly. Okay, yeah, which speaking of Shannon, she says, breaking the fourth wall in film, theater, or television means that a character acknowledges or directly addresses the audience,

breaking the illusion that the audience is not present. Oh, so that would be like that. Oh, so that's like in the office when they look at the camera and start talking to the audience. So I have that wrong. We are breaking the fourth. Well, I guess when we're like, hey guys. When we were like, hey, YouTube, that's breaking the fourth wall. Yeah.

Or maybe it would be like if I look directly in the camera and I'm like, cat just started crying. You like narrate kind of what's happening and you let them in. Because some people may not have picked up on that that you were emotional. Oh, yeah. She's like she's usually laughing and perky and then she just like fumbled over her words. Yeah. The camera was off. Kat's like I zoomed into her eyeball.

I was like a well enough. So yeah, we've got cryocat running the cameras and then Shannon's in here helping with us. Okay, so Shannon is sending examples. A character looking directly into the camera and commenting on the plot. Oh, that would be like that. You could look into the camera and be like, and then she pulls out her fertility calendar. Yeah. Or you could clarify to reiterate, Amy is not a sociopath.

Oh, yeah. Are you asking me to do that? Obviously. She's not a sociopath. Or a psychopath. I can say that with utmost certainty. And I don't know a lot of things. I do know that.

You're a licensed therapist. Yeah. You do know a lot of things. Okay. There are a lot of things I don't know. That's better. I do know that. a character speaking directly to the audience as if they are part of the scene and then a character

acknowledging the audience's presence or the fact that they are watching a show or movie. We've been doing that. Yeah. We're like, if you're new here. First of all, I was watching a like reunion of a reality show and they said breaking the fourth wall, they were talking about how like the produce, they were giving info about like the producers doing something. They're like, not to break the fourth wall, but like so and so was filming.

and da-da-da-da-da-da and like giving like behind the scenes. Yeah. I feel like that falls under that. It's like it's not as curated. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I thought it was, yes, bringing in like another camera that gives you a different angle of the whole thing.

Like you're seeing like if I were to be able to give you a hug right now, that wouldn't be on part of the show because you don't hear a hug. But I guess if they brought in the camera and saw me hugging you. Yeah. But right now I'm just going to like pretend hug. A win is a win. A win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying.

Yep, that's me. Clipper Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits. the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation.

There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast Money and Wealth with John Ho'Brien, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught.

Financial education is not always about, like, I'm going to get rich. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I do have my dirty shirt metaphor. Oh, yeah. I like that.

We can close with the metaphor. It's called the dirty shirt. Imagine you're wearing a white shirt. and you spill coffee on it. Guilt says, I spilled coffee on my shirt. That was clumsy. I should be more careful next time.

You see the mess. You feel bad and want to clean it up. It's about the action. Shame says, of course I spilled coffee. I am such a mess. I ruin everything. And that's just the cousin.

That's why they're the dramatic cousin because now it's not about just the shirt being dirty. You feel like the mess. It's no longer about the shirt. It's about your identity. Well, and there's also, what do you do with that? So guilt's like, I should, I'm going to be more careful next time. I'm going to take shit out of there because sometimes that word can be frustrating.

I also think before we move on to the shame part under guilt, I think we should also celebrate when we handle something like that well. I didn't spill coffee on my shirt yesterday, but I spilled an entire, like I've got my macha here. You see, I'm breaking the fourth wall. This is my ice matchup. Oh, that probably sounded so gross in the mic. I used to hate when my mom would swallow because hereditarily, I have a really loud swallow. It's not my fault. It's my mom's. Okay. You're, you blame a lot of stuff on your mom. The scamming? You said that she liked it. Yes. Well, it's just a product of my environment. Yeah, yeah. And my tricky out. But I have a really loud swallow.

And I just made a fresh matcha yesterday and I was going up the stairs and I trip over the stairs and I spill the matcha everywhere. And I think in unhealthyer times, I would have probably lost it and then like, which I mean, who knows, it could be a toss-up hormonally if I were to respond that way. But I was really, really proud of myself that I just was like, ha. Silly me. Yeah, I was like, gosh, now I'm going to have to go make another one. And I sort of like skip to the kitchen.

I got my cleaning things. I put on more hot water to make a fresh one. And I went and I cleaned it up. Yeah. And it was so much easier. Like the recovery time was so fast. And I just. There would be no recovery if you, it was shame.

It would be like, I don't even deserve macha. Yeah. Or I could have just been like, oh. stupid I didn't I didn't say that but you know I could have lost it which I think it's okay if you want to get mad like mad a second but something about that yesterday I just had this like huh great experience and I want to acknowledge that I did celebrate it because I think it's important that we celebrate those moments when we handle something in a way that's more breezy and it doesn't get us all riled up because then there's a snowball effect that happens and then who knows the next

thing that would have happened because now my feathers are ruffled and I'm just going to keep being irritated and that you know but it's like okay I spill my matcha I guess I'm going to go have to make me another one dang it good thing I have more left yeah and I can make another one because some people might spill their matcha and not have any left to make so celebrate those moments that you find yourself doing that and then also have grace for the times where you're like, it takes a little longer. It takes a little longer. Yeah.

This is, this happened today. So you're going to be, you might be shocked by this, but I've been making eggs and not for myself. Okay. But I mean, you're cooking them without vomiting? Cooking them. Yes. And I, breaking the fourth fall for those that don't know this, I can't stand eggs.

But I do like making a breakfast for my husband. And I was like, okay, that'd be easy and la la la. And I do like to cook even though I'm not the best cook. Well, I've never really made eggs before because, well, I made them for an ex-boyfriend and he always would be like, oh, these are gross. These are too wet or these are two, he was not nice. So I haven't made eggs in like eight years. And that was the only time I'd ever make, made them. So I was like, Patrick, I'm going to make you eggs.

And we made an omelet, I think, yesterday. And he helped me. And then today I said, I'm going to do it by myself. You go get ready. I'm doing by myself. I don't need your help. Well, eggs cook so fast. like I'm sure everybody's like yeah duh I thought I had like time like how much time okay not like 10 minutes but I was like okay I have time right like put the ingredient I was making a fancy almond I had onions I had peppers I had spinach I had bacon put all the stuff in cheese I was like oh no I got to get the cheese and by the time I flipped it over it was pretty burnt yeah and Patrick had it anyway but what I was

could have done as been like, I'm so stupid. I'm an idiot. You shouldn't love me. Like, I probably wouldn't have been that dramatic, but I could have had a version of, God, I can't even make eggs. I'm so dumb. Like, why am I even trying? Or that guy was right. I do suck at this. You mean your ex-boyfriend? Yeah. But instead, I'm like, Patrick, I think I need your help one more time. So that's where it's like, shame. The toxic shame doesn't, this is my egg metaphor. I also have like a question for you. Like, I get, Patrick's getting ready, right? So what about Google? Like, if you, Google's like, I don't think I needed to Google it.

But like Google, like, how to make an omelet? Google. Or do you have, I don't know. My first thought is, oh, I guess my first thought is like, I'm going to ask somebody else to help me before. If he's available. Oh, okay. Well, I know, but Hughes, you were like, I got this. Go get ready.

Oh. But you just, if you thought you had it. If you couldn't, if you couldn't be there to help me, I would probably Google it. Obviously. Yeah, but because he is there, that I'm like, can you help me learn this a couple more times before I'm out on my own with the omelet? And he was like, yeah, of course. So where I can lean it to him, his gift of egg making, I don't know.

But that's the difference of where guilt can actually lead us somewhere. Toxic shame cuts us. I would never make him another omelet. Yeah. You're not going to give up. I'll update you guys. You're going to be like omelet clean. That's going to be your new hobby.

You know, when I get my mind on something, that's going to be like, come to my kitchen. You can make pottery, I'll do your nails, and I'll make you an omelette. The one thing I won't do is an over-easy egg, where they're like gooey. Oh, I love a runny egg. You know, I wonder how many people have like an egg story because I feel like eggs, they're such a staple in people's lives that I wonder if you just take that one thing. Like, egg.

and what's a story in your life that comes to mind? Like you have your boyfriend that was awful. He was awful, by the way. He was terrible. I'm glad you're not with him. Awful, awful, awful. I have my boyfriend from college that I'm pretty sure he broke up with me because of the time I threw a fit over. Oh, yeah.

I wanted egg whites. And he made me. Like, but this was not me. It was my eating disorder. Yeah. And my eating disorder, we'll call her Bridget. Oh, perfect. Sounds like a good name.

Bridget was a real bee. Bridget was high maintenance. And she wanted egg whites. Particular. And when Bridget got eggs scrambled with the yoke in it, what is she to do? Because the yoke has fat. And now I'm like, give me the yoke like I want the yoke like I want. all the things.

I just can't stop thinking about how you say yoke. Yoke, yoke, yoke. But that that would be a story that comes to mind for me. And then you had your egg thing and now you have the omelet thing. And I wonder if like you just take that simple thing. If you're like, here's an egg. Now everybody share your traumatic story. This is our group therapy exercise and pass the egg and tell us what it brings up for you.

Yeah. Yes. You're holding the egg. And then now it's like. Like, oh, I'm a woman and I only, I'm only born with a certain amount of eggs. And then they slowly start dying off. I wonder, like, I, speaking of that basketball game I went to with with my boyfriend after the track meet on Friday, there was this little teeny tiny baby there.

It was so cute. It was the most precious little baby. Like, we were trying to figure out how old do you think that baby is? I don't know. She may be fresh out of the hospital. but I was impressed that the mom and the dad being there to support their other child. Meanwhile, I was thinking, I barely even went to my son's track me, and here they are, with this new baby.

And I was obsessed, and I looked at my boyfriend and I was like, does that make you want to have a baby? And he was like, no. And I was like, yeah, me neither. But it really did. It made me want to have a baby. I mean, not necessarily, I'm not saying with him or that I'm going to, but I do wonder sometimes. And then I quickly tell myself, you don't want a baby. Like, you don't want to change diapers.

But that's a narrative I gave myself whenever Ben and I were switching to adoption. And then especially adopting older kids, we were like, we don't want to, which we really felt called to do that. Like, we felt like this is something we want to do. And we would joke. Like, well, at least now we don't have to change diapers. Now we've had to deal with other things that might make me want to change the diapers. But, you know, that's just something I wonder. I do to quickly make myself think I don't want to have a baby.

Like, you don't want to deal with all that newborn stuff and no sleep and blah. It helps you not feel. Yeah, it helps me not feel. So I immediately did that little trick. I'm like, uh, baby stivers, love it. And like, maybe you don't want to do that. And I want that cute little tiny baby. Like I do not know these people.

And I wanted to be like, can I hold your baby? Which I would never say that, but I wanted to. It was so cute. I'm like, enter that baby into a contest. Because it was so cute. Okay. All right. Oh, Shannon has a note for us.

Cooking a basic omelet typically takes three to six minutes depending on your stove top and desired level of doneness. You should flip it after the first minute. Oh, definitely didn't do that. I didn't. Okay. Well, now I know. I'll update you next week. I'll send you a picture in my omelet.

All right. Well, we hope y'all are having a day you need to have. We'll see you on Thursday for Couch Talks. We love hearing from you all. Email us, hey there at Couch Talks. Nope. Hey there at Feeling Things. It's Hey There at Feeling Things Podcast.com.

Also, I was going to say for the people that we're getting emails about the newsletter, if you email us, I will sign you up for the newsletter. And we're working on the Facebook group. So you can find the sign up there. Yes. And there's a link tree in our Instagram at Feeling Things Podcasts where you can also sign up for the newsletter. But I know not everybody has Instagram.

But yeah, we're going to be everywhere. We're on TikTok. Why is that funny? I just felt very, I just felt old. We're on the tiki-tuggy. We're everywhere. We can access us. We're on the TikTok.

We're on the TikTok. We're on the YouTube. We're on the Facebook. And we're on the newsletter. And we have a phone number. Here we have an email. Oh yeah, what's our phone number? Shannon.

Nobody was calling it. And that was the thing. Like I was like, we want people to feel comfortable calling. People are so comfortable emailing. But wouldn't it be fun to play a voicemail? Yeah, it would. I guess. Generationally.

And I wanted to play them back. But I also, we're going to advance to the live calls. We're going to do the live calls. Well, if nobody's leaving a message, then. I think people are more inclined to call than leave a message. Well, I would feel the opposite. Just growing up in my generation is that if I don't have to make a phone call, I'm not making a phone call. Okay, true.

So I think that's where how a lot of people operate, so we're not used to it. And like I do they don't want their voice on the. Well, to me it's just like. We could do a voice changer. Yeah, we could. That would be fun. I think. Yeah, I think that for the couch talks questions, if people who want to be anonymous are definitely not going to want to.

And then in the subject line, should they put couch talks? Yeah, that's helpful. Yeah. I think. So yeah, we'll see y'all on Thursday for couch talks. Let me see if we have any other order of business here. And you're fancy. Am I the iPad?

On the iPad? On the iPad. So YouTube check, newsletter check, Instagram check, email us check. Have the day you need to have check. I'm at Radio Amy and you are at Cat Van Buren. And we'll see you on Thursday. Bye. Bye. A win is a win.

A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying. Yep, that's me. Clifford Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifers Show.

This is a place for raw, unfills of conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to the Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change.

We have to be willing to live. with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. Listen to a slight change of plans on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. I'm Cheryl Stray, author of Wild and Tiny Beautiful Things.

I'm excited to share that I have a new podcast called Mind Over Mountain. In each episode, I interview athletes, adventurers, and adrenaline seekers to discuss the inner landscapes that informed and inspired their extraordinary feats. So we, too, can better understand how to face our own seemingly insurmountable challenges. Listen to Mind Over Mountain every Thursday on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.