The Bobby Bones Show - Author of "All the leaves are Brown: How the Mamas and Papas Came together and broke apart."

Episode Date: September 8, 2023

Buzz Knight is Takin' A Walk with Scott Shea, Author of "All the leaves are Brown: How the Mamas and Papas Came together and broke apart." *****Thank you so much for listening to the TAKIN’ A WALK PODCAST SHOW hosted by Buzz Knight!   Listen to more honest conversations with a compelling mix of guests ranging from musicians, authors, and insiders with their own stories. Get inspired, get motivated, and gain insights from honest conversations every week that can help you with your own journey. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, and be part of this blessed family. Website: https://takinawalk.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/thebuzzknight LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/in/buzzknight  Linkfire: https://lnk.to/takinawalk Please consider subscribing, leaving a review, and sharing it with your friends and family!  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.

Greg Gillespie and Michael Mianini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. this is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast

on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed, I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves.

We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth with John Hobriant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money.

What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more.

Listen to Money and Wealth with John Hope Bryant from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of IHeartMedia, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing. Math and Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest minds in marketing.

Coming up this seasonal Math and Magic, CEO of Liquid Death, Mike Cesario. People think that creative ideas are like these light bulb moments that happen when you're in the shower. It's really like a stone sculpture. You're constantly just chipping away and refining. Take to Interactive CEO, Strauss-Lennick, and our own chief business officer, Lisa Listen to Math and Magic on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to the Taken a Walk podcast, hosted by Buzz Nine.

You can keep up with Taking a Walk if you follow us at Takenawalk.com, Apple Podcasts, the podcast playground, or wherever you get your podcasts. On previous Taken a Walk episodes, Buzz has talked with authors who dig deep into music history stories. These have included David Leif who wrote about the genius of Brian Wilson and Joel Selvin who wrote about legendary red rocker Sammy Hagar. On this episode, Buzz welcomes author Scott Shea talking about his new book, All the Leaves Are Brown, about the twisted world of the band The Mamas and the Pappas. Join Buzz Knight as he hosts Scott Shea next on Taking a Walk.

Hi, Scott. Nice to be with you. albeit on a virtual edition of Taking a Walk. Good deal. So how could one band that was so immensely talented and successful been so dramatically screwed up in so many other ways? That's a good question. I mean, I think, you know, I think just humanity plays a part in that. You know, there was the old sex, drugs and rock and roll idiom, right?

and these four really kind of took it to the help. And, you know, I say this a lot, and I really, I hate to just kind of, it sounds like I'm bashing the group, but I'm really not. It's just between, you know, the dysfunction between the members, you know, following the revelation of Denny's fling with Michelle, and it's really kind of resting on their laurels. You know, all four of them had been members of various folk groups and had toured the country and staying on buses and stayed in cheap motels and wore the same outfits days on end. And that's a lot of hard work. And I think when they got to that level that the Mamas and the Pappas was at, they really kind of got a little lazy. You know, they only wanted to tour on weekends and warm climates.

you know, and they canceled a lot of shows, and, you know, that's not a recipe for staying together very long, you know, the Beatles, the Stones, the Birds, any group, Bob Dylan, any group that really is a 60s legend, they put the hard work in. They went out and met the people, and, you know, being on the road inspired their songwriting and gave us some really great stuff, and unfortunately the Mamas and the Pappas didn't really do that. Who was whispering in their ear that could have been a good influence? Well, Lou Adler, for sure. And I know the record label, they really wanted them out on the road.

It wasn't, you know, something, they weren't at all enamored with their approach and with the dysfunction. And they had to kind of tread lightly because they were aware of the relationship dysfunction within the group. and, you know, you wanted to hear their walk in the line of trying to get them out to promote it, but getting them to not break up at the same time, you know. So, but definitely Lou Adler was a force that really helped them and got them back on their feet somewhat. But he obviously was doing other things, so he couldn't spend full time really managing the dysfunction. Yeah, you know, not long after they signed with Dunhill, you know, he sold. it to ABC and walked away with a cool million in his pocket. He and his four, I think he had four

or five partners, but mostly we were silent partners. And so even after, not long after they had signed, his influence could only carry so far. I mean, Dunhill for sure kept Lou on to be their manager and the producer. But, you know, he could only go so far as what the label was doing. But, you know, I know he tried, and I know he loved John, and they were close friends. And in the studio, they were a dynamic duo, you know. But as far as getting John on the road and saying, hey, man, we got to put the work in. And they did do too well there. So let's go through each band member because you paint a tremendous picture in the book inside and out of each of them.

So I'd like to hear your take and go through the lineup. First, John Phillips, talk about what a complex figure he was. Well, he has maybe the most complex personal life out of all of them, and that's really saying something, you know. And I'm not even talking about with which came later, you know, the allegations from his daughter McKenzie. But even back in those days, you know, he was into drugs. You know, in the late 70s, he got busted for being a drug.

dealer, but that even that behavior had gone on in the early 60s when they were in a folk group and he was dispensing pills to everybody. He had these relationships worked out with these chemists. So he was definitely in over his head with drugs

from the onset, but he was an incredible, incredible musician. And, you know, really underrated, I think. And I think the reason why he's underrated was he wasn't as prolific as some of the I really put him up there with Brian Wilson as far as the way he arranged songs.

I mean, they both really, you know, Brian was into the four freshmen, you know, growing up and really kind of patterned his rock and roll after them. And similarly, John was into the high lows, which was another singing quartet kind of jazzy from the early to mid-50s. And they inspired his writing. But like I said, John just wasn't as prolific. and so he doesn't get the same kind of accolades that somebody like Brian Wilson gets. And one of the things I discovered that I didn't know is his piece of the action, if you will, with the legendary Monterey Pop Festival. Talk about John Phillips as sort of a business person in that regard.

He really was, you know, when he focused on something, I mean, look out. He put his awe into it, and that includes the Monterey Pop Festival. That was brought to him by a couple guys where Alan Parasier and a guy named Benjamin Shapiro. And they had wanted to put on, they had put on a show earlier in 1967, I think in the winter, like February or March, to bail out, to bail out the kids or to pay for the defense of kids who were arrested during the Sunset Strip riots in Los Angeles. Angeles after the curfews had been changed and there was a lot of writing going on and gave us songs like for what it's worth by Buffalo Springfield. So they wanted to do a larger one, like an outdoor festival in Monterey where there was a jazz festival like every other year or so.

And so they got it for two days and they didn't really have anybody. They wanted the Beatles and the Stones, but the Beatles had stopped touring and the stones were in like, you know, legal nightmares with their drug butts. So they couldn't even go anywhere if they wanted to. So Derek Taylor, who was the Beatles publicist, had moved to Los Angeles and was working for the birds. And he had suggested to them the Mamas and the Pappas. They're the hottest thing going right now, and they're right in your backyard. So they approached John and threw some cajoling, got him on board.

And then he saw the potential of it and really took it over and made it what the Monterey Pop Festival that we know today, which is the father of the rock festival, was really his idea. It was a not-for-profit venture, and he had all cutting-edge artists. It wasn't like a big Clark Caravan of Stars. It was, you know, they got a lot of those San Francisco groups like the Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane, and then the two top British groups in that time, like the Who and the Jimmy Hendrix experience, and, you know, gave us an Otis Redding, you know, and gave us just this incredible festival that we're still revering today. And he bought out one of the partners, ultimately, too, of the festival, didn't he?

Yeah, Ben Shapiro. He was not thrilled with the nonprofit aspect. So he did a great thing, a smart thing. He held out, and they just ended up buying him out for 50 grand. So he walked away with $50,000 in his pocket, and they got what they wanted. Let's talk about the only living member, the beautiful Michelle Phillips. Yes, she was John's wife from 1960 to 1969. They had met when John, or, yeah, 1962, I'm sorry. They had met in 1961 when John was in the journeyman. It was his folk group that was on Capitol Records. And they went out to San Francisco to do a month stand at the Hungry Eye. Their management team was located out there, so they went out to be closer to them.

And really kind of stayed in that area. And Michelle was living there. She was a model. She was about 17 and had moved up there from a little. Los Angeles with her friend Tamar Hodo and whose father, George Hodel, was a prime suspect in the Black Dalliard murder. And so they met them at The Hungry Eye and, you know, John, who was a habitual cheater on his wife at the time, Susie just fell head over heels in love with her. So, and then, you know, and then they got married like a year or so later, and they started having

marital troubles because Michelle had an affair. And I think John was reforming the new journeyman, and he wanted Michelle a little closer to him to keep an eye on her. So he brought her in, and she's also pretty could sing a little bit, you know. But I really think their marriage is critical. I think if they hadn't gotten married, we wouldn't have the mammas and the papas. And, you know, she went on, she didn't really go on to keep singing. She got it, became an actress, appeared in a lot of movies, was in Falcon Crest and the eight. 80s and, you know, has pretty much since retired, but, you know, like I said, very, maybe the greatest, one of the greatest songwriting muses in, in rock and roll history as Monday, Monday, and go where

you want to go, and I saw her again, and even California Dreaming were inspired by her. Did you attempt to reach out to her for the book? I did, yeah, I did. You know, she did not return my requests. I know she's very proprietary of that story, and understandably so. She's a big part of that story. So, you know, and when I approached her, I was not signed to a publishing deal. I did not have an agent, so I was just some random guy, you know, who worked at the Kathy Channel on Sirius XM.

And, you know, I can understand why she didn't return my request. But nonetheless, she put out an autobiography in 1986 that really kind of detailed her time with the Mamas and the Pappas, so I was able to glean a lot of her perspective from that. Let's talk about Denny Doherty. Denny was, you know, talking about underrated. Denny, I think, is one of the most underrated rock and roll voices. He had a great, great tenor, a great rock and roll tenor,

more suited for rock and roll than folk music. He was in a folk band as well that was signed to everything. epic records and they were called the Halifax 3. They were all from Nova Scotia, Canada. And, you know, they had some minor success. But they, he and John met on a, on a hoot-nanny tour when John was with the journeyman. And those two got very close. They would like, they both smoked marijuana. And when the tour bus would come to a rest stop, they would go off in the bushes and, you know, sneak a joint here and there. And, but it drew them closer. And they really had a love for each other. And even after it came to light that Michelle and Johnny had, Michelle

and Denny had slept together, they were able to find a place of healing and remain friends. And they were friends through the rest of John's life. So then let's talk about the great Cass Elliott. Well, she was definitely the superstar of the group, you know, kind of came out of nowhere, I think, when you look, you know, through the lens of history. She was, you know, she was, you know, heavy set and not traditionally, uh, the traditional look of a female lead singer, but, uh, boy, she had quite a voice and, uh, she had a personality to match. You know, I think in many ways she had that to try to make up for, you know, for her weight,

you know, which, you know, in her mind was probably a bigger deal than was to others. But, you know, It was made, you know, it was made fun of a lot. You know, it's always brought up, and you watch her on TV shows and interviews and stuff like that. But she was an incredible talent. And she also was in a folk group of the big three, and she had met, she had met Denny on tour as well. And she fell in love with him. You know, he was a good-looking guy. And she was really into him.

But it was unrequited love. Denny loved her as a friend, but he was not into her. romantically. And that was another thing that just really kind of gave the bandit's aura, you know, the love between Michelle Denny and Cass, the unrequited love. And, but over time, I think the behavior of all of them just kind of distanced her from them. And she was looking for a way out. And, you know, as the mamas and the poppice star began to fall, hers as a solo singer was rising because when they were on stage, she was the spokesperson of the group.

She was the one who told the stories while the band was tuning their instruments, you know, that she had done that with their time with the big three. And, you know, she was the breakout star. When Dream A Little Dream of Me came out, it was credited to Mama Cass with the Mamas and the Pappas. I think Dunhill Records saw the writing on the wall and wanted to move on with Cass. And they did. a fairly successful solo career as a singer. It was probably not what they had hoped for.

She didn't really have any smash number one successes. But, you know, her personality was such that, you know, she was on talk shows, a lot of talk shows. I mean, she did, like, Mike Douglas and Merv Griffin dozens of times. I believe she hosted Carson filled in for him a couple times when he was, you know, he was always taken off. So, and she was on his show a lot. So I think had she lived,

She may have become a very successful talk show host. It's amazing that they, at least John Phillips, did not want her in the group. And it's also amazing that even in one of their songs, you know, the line, no one's getting fat except Mama Cass. I mean, think about that in today's world. I know. It's inconceivable, you know. But the funny thing was that, you know, she was in on the joke. and she knew John, and I think her way of getting back at John,

because they had a very tumultuous relationship, was to sing that line with as much vim and vigor as she could muster. And when you listen to it, she is really into that line, you know? And I think, you know, for us, it may be kind of backfired on him, but for us, we benefited it because it just gives that song a little more pizzazz. My understanding from talking to the great photographer Henry Diltz, who knew Mama Cass, was that she was an incredible sweetheart. Oh, she was.

I mean, you can just see it in the interviews that she gives. She's very endearing. And I think that's one reason why she was so successful in that realm is that people like to hear her talk and like to, you know, it drew people closer to her. And it's, you know, you could fall in love with her personality very, very, very easily. And, you know, and for my case, I mean, I don't, I know she didn't think so. And maybe she, by other standards, I think she's an attractive woman, too. But, you know, she just had a great look about her and a great personality to boot, you know,

and America fell in love. And unfortunately, not just America, but the world fell in love. And we lost her way too early, you know, at the age of 30. years old. And then there was this moment with the band that I did not know about the moment where the band kicked out Michelle Phillips for the affair that she was having with Gene Clark of the Birds. Can you talk about that?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think once the dust settled from Denny and Michelle's fling, You know, Michelle stayed in the house that she and John had rented shortly after that came to light. And then, but John moved out and moved in with Denny. And then she, you know, she began this affair with Gene Clark, who she met through a mutual friend. And I think once that came to light, it was, it was too much for John. It's just like, I can't deal with this. I think he told Denny and Mama Cass that it's either me or her, you know.

and they couldn't afford to lose John. They could afford to lose Michelle, or so they thought, you know, because John was the, he was the prison. Without John, there is no Mamas and Pappas, which is why he's really kind of focal point of this book. You know, it's kind of like the Beach Boys. You read a book on the Beach Boys. It's going to be a lot of focus on Brian Wilson.

So they did, you know, John fired her after a concert where Gene Clark was in attendance, and John noticed, and he fired her in the parking lot, and a few days later, they sent her a formal letter. And, you know, it was the summer of 1966. So it lasted for about two months, and they brought in Joe Gibson, who was Lou Adler's girlfriend at the time. She had been the girlfriend of Jan Barry, of Jan and Dean, and they had broken up shortly before he had his car wreck that, you know, gave him, resulted in some brain damage. She was tall, another pretty blonde. She was a former model.

She was very musical. She had written songs and worked in the studio with Jan and Dean and had recorded a single herself. So she was kind of a natural replacement. But the thing was, you know, the Mamas and the Pappas was a shared experience between four people. And I think it came to light during that time period. And that, you know, Michelle just wasn't a cog you could take out and replace. You know, she had been with them through thick and thin. They were together in New York.

They were together at the Virgin Islands. She was with them when they moved back out to California and got signed to Dunhill. And they just couldn't replace that. You know, she had an edge to her that Jill didn't have. So he eventually brought her back in right there at the end of summer and just resumed as normal. And it actually kind of kicked off a bit of a renaissance in John and Michelle's marriage. They bought that house in Bel Air and lived as normally as they could for a little while. But then bad behaviors made their way back in and they eventually divorced.

What was your conversation with Jill Gibson like for the book? It was very introspective. She's a very deep person. She's an artist. We communicated via email. And she would always reply in a very timely manner. with great that she told me a great the great story of them meeting the Beatles she was with them when they went to london in 1966 in the summer there and um really gave me a firsthand account of

not only meeting the Beatles but several members of the Rolling Stones and uh just and it's all detailed in the book uh people can uh will enjoy and if you're a Beatles fan or a Rolling Stones fan you'll you'll certainly enjoy uh the Mamas and the Papa shared experience with them So do you ever think about the parallels of this band for a band that would eventually mature in some way and have its own legacy, the comparison between the Mamas and the Pappas and the various affairs and Fleetwood Mac? Yeah, I've heard that a lot. You know, it's funny, I didn't even really think of that writing it, and I'm a big Fleetwood Mac fan. So it's like, you know, but it's like, yeah, they were kind of Fleetwood Mac before Fleetwood Mac, you know.

It was complicated. But, you know, I know there's a mini-series out there based on the life of the tumultuous relationship of the most famous incarnation of Fleetwood Mac because there were several, you know, with Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks. And, you know, the movie, my book has already been optioned for a movie or a limited edition series. And I really think the story of the Mamas and the Pappas could be a great limited edition. series right there with Daisy Jones in the Six because it writes itself and there's a cliffhanger there already built in for every episode but you know it was the same thing you know just affairs and broken hearts and jealousies and um it was it was there before the fleet before Fleetwood Mac even brought it to another level so three ring circus it was what it was right yeah for sure

for sure you know you and the three principles being uh well actually yeah i guess you could say john is in there but definitely denny michel and cast yeah so if you were their manager during that period what would you have tried to do to steer the course uh boy that's a good question um you know it's tough because you know we talk about the monterey pop festival uh how that really changed music it was It really kind of gave us what we now refer to as classic rock, because right after that was all those San Francisco groups really started to hit, and albums became a bigger thing than singles,

and you had power trios like Cream and the Jimmy Hendrix experience, and the Mamas and the Pappas struggled to find a footing in that, and it's the very thing that they had created. You know, harmony groups didn't do too well. in the post-moneray world. Do you think of the Beach Boys and the Four Seasons and the Mamas and the Pappas? And, you know, you eventually had this oldies revival that, you know, the Mamas or the Beach Boys and the Four Seasons were able to kind of get back,

get their footing back and really rejuvenate their careers. But the Mamas and the Pappas just couldn't do that. So, I mean, I guess in that era, I would have to get to work and just try to figure out how to make this four-piece tree, four-piece quartet the sings harmony relevant in this age. And that's a tough

that would have been a tough order. And we see it, the Mamas and the Pappas their fourth album, the Pappas and the Mamas not the greatest title in the world. It was a good album, and it came out right there in 1968

during that time. But it's not very memorable. You know, there's no real super standout tracks. There's good tracks. There's fan favorites, for sure. But nothing like what had come.

before it like Creek Alley or California Dreaming or I saw her again. So I think if I were their manager, I don't know if I would have been any better than Lou Adler or whoever else came in, Bobby Roberts and all those other guys who came in. But I would just definitely say we've got to focus on finding our footing here and how we're going to stay relevant in this era. Might have been a visit to an addiction counselor possibly too. I don't know I remember that that time of period

it was hip to be on drugs true well Scott congratulations on all the leaves of brown how the mammas and the papas came together and broke apart your new book on backbeat

and congratulations on it and thank you for being on taking a walk well thank you Buzz I really appreciate you having me on and just if listeners want to you know, buy the book and so you can go to my website Scott Shea author.com.

Shea is spelled S-H-E-A and I'll give you links to Amazon and Barnes & Noble, books a million, and the audio book just dropped the other day. So if that's your preferred method of getting through a book, you can pick that up as well. Thank you, Scott. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Taking a walk with Buzz Night is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckerd was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test once.

It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg, a lesbian. Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is love trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police.

As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed, I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends.

Trust me, babe, on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth with John Hobriant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts too many of us were never, ever taught. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John Hope Bryant from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, Chairman and CEO of IHeart Media, and I'm kicking off a brand new season of my podcast, Math and Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing. Math and Magic takes you behind the scenes of the biggest businesses and industries while sharing insights from the smartest minds in marketing. Coming up this seasonal Math and Magic, CEO of Liquid Death Mike Sessario. People think that creative ideas are like these light bulb moments that happen when you're in the shower. It's really like a stone sculpture. You're constantly just chipping away and refining.

Take two interactive CEO, Strauss Selnick, and our own chief business officer, Lisa Coffey. Listen to Math and Magic on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.