The Bobby Bones Show - BONUS: A Message from Amy on 'You Need Therapy' - The One About the Enneagram

Episode Date: December 31, 2020

You Need Therapy is a podcast on the Amy Brown Podcast network!FINALLYYYYYYY. The episode we have all been waiting for! This week we are all about the Enneagram!! Kat (@kat.defatta) brings on Katie Gustafson (@katiegustafson.co), a licensed therapist AND Enneagram expert. Katie walked us through sooo many wonderful things. We started with what personality is and then went into an overview of the Enneagram itself. Katie then offered us a brief description of each of the 9 types. It’s so good y’all. Katie is a WEALTHHHH of knowledge and this was an episode where light bulbs were going off in Kat’s head the entire time. P.S. Katie is the creator of The Practice, a new monthly subscription program launching in January that combines practical ways to use the Enneagram and Mindfulness as self-care. Be onto lookout!To connect with Katie and schedule your own enneagram interview head to: https://katiegustafson.coTo learn more about the podcast visit www.youneedtherapypodcast.com Follow us on instagram at @youneedtherapypodcastEnneagram tests Katie recommends: RHETI:https://tests.enneagraminstitute.com/orders/create#rhetiiEQ9:https://www.integrative9.com/getyourtype/selection/?product=Std&currency=USD(standard version is fine) Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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And then more importantly, for more and more people to start realizing that therapy isn't reserved for people who have something wrong with them. Therapy is for all of us. You may not want it, but the truth is you need therapy. I really think it's a great podcast. You're going to like it, especially the episode. going to share with you now. So go subscribe and listen on IHeart Radio or wherever you listen to podcasts. Now here's Catherine Nefada and an episode of You Need Therapy.

Hi guys and welcome back to another new episode of Unite Therapy. I'm Kat and I am as always so glad that you are here. I hope you guys had a wonderful weekend and enjoyed the holiday, the holiday being Thanksgiving as much as you could this year. I know it was different. It was weird for a lot of people, but we got through it and we're here. And I want to give a quick shout out to anyone who is a new listener or first time listener. Hello, nice to meet you, but I'm really not meeting you, but you know what I mean. Anyway, I wanted to remind everyone, including those people, especially, that you can connect with me in the podcast online on Instagram. I am at at cat.da and you can follow the podcast at at you need therapy podcast on Instagram. Also, we have something called the

self-love club and you can join that by heading to you need therapy podcast.com. That is a group of people who I send a special message out to every single week. And if you head to the website, you also will be able to see the store and shop the cute merch we have. I know everybody's looking for presents for holidays this year. We have some really cute t-shirts, mugs, pins, stickers, really great stocking stuffers. So head there and check that out. We would love that. Now, to the good stuff, to the juicy stuff. Oh my gosh, we have done it. We finally are here after, I mean, literally next week will be a year of the podcast. We have an episode on the Enneagram. And clearly this has been one of the most requested things that you guys have asked for. And I have been waiting for not just the right

time, but really the right person to do this with. And you're going to get really excited because this is a secret, but not really a secret because I'm telling you, you're about to get two episodes on the anagram pretty soon. So this is the first one and I'm so excited and I'm going to make this short as I can because I want to jump into the stuff because the episode's so good. But I have a therapist named Katie Gustafasun and she is going to take us through today the basics of what the anagram really is. What is this thing that people keep talking about? Why do we like it? What even is a personality test? Should we talk about what even is a personality? And then we go through the basics of each of the types. Oh my gosh, it's so good. Now let me tell you a little bit about

Katie. She's not only an extremely kind and warm person. She's so easy to talk to. She also really knows what she's talking about. Side note, I texted my friend who connected us in the beginning afterwards and I was like, oh my God, I wish she could be my therapist. She's awesome. She truly is. So she's not just a licensed therapist. She also is an Enneagram coach. She has studied and has been trained in how to use the enneagram as a tool effectively, which I really value. This isn't just somebody who knows a lot about the enneagram. I know a lot about the enneagram, but I am by no means a coach. She offers online coaching, FYI. If you really find yourself connecting to all of the things that we talk about today and you want to dive deeper into that stuff and your story, do not hesitate

to connect with Katie. You can find her on Instagram at katie.gastafasun.co. I will put that in the description and then online at katie gustafeson.com. Also, I want to mention that we talked about some tests that she recommends us starting points if you're trying to figure out where you might land on this personality journey. I've linked those in the description as well. Anyway, I hope you love this episode as much as I did and let me know if you did. Share it. Tag us. We want to, we want to connect with you and I will see all of you guys hopefully on Wednesday for Couch Talks. Here's my conversation about the Enneagram with Katie. All right.

We have a very exciting episode today. I'm going to call her Katie G because I just went through a tutorial about to say her last name. And it's very challenging. But she is a therapist in town and I know her through a couple humans that have seen her and people that work with her. And it's about time we do an episode on the Enneagram. So welcome and thank you for being here. You're so welcome. Thank you for having me, Kat. Yeah. And we are going to do, we'll do an overview of like what is the anagram because a lot of people have no idea what this is. They've heard it a lot. It sounds very trendy. They might have read an Instagram post or maybe part of a book on it, but not really sure what it is. So we're going to tell you guys what it is. And then we're going to go through all nine types and give you like a snapshot overview of each one. Before we get started, though, I did get a lot of questions and I have my own. opinion, but for you, what is the best way for people that start getting into this? What's the best way

for them to figure out their type? Is it listening to stuff like this? Is it reading? Is it taking a test? Such a good question. There's a lot of differing ideas. I found out about the Enneagram before there were online tests. And so I read books. And that was the most helpful for me. Now, we live, I mean, we live in an Enneagram saturated world. There's so many more research. There's so many more research. I like to say that, you know, there are a few online indicators that I think are very helpful. And maybe we could link those in the show notes. I'm not sure is a possibility. But what I like to say is that online tests are a great place to jump off. And they're helpful because they can identify your top two or three types. And then from there, you can do your own self-study and read up on those types. And I actually

do typing interviews with people. So it's a really great way to. to know your type. But if you don't have access to like a typing interview or an enneagram coach, there's just so many great books that you can kind of figure out your top two or three. And then spend some time just kind of living into the types through your own self-study, go into a workshop. There's so many online resources. I'm happy to be a resource and to triage any questions. but I like to send people to a couple of online tests as a jumping off point and then encourage people to either read a book, go to a workshop or do a typing interview with a coach. So we can give everybody some info on what those are and then obviously we'll give some contact

info for you. But some people still are probably like, what is, what are you talking about? How do you describe what the enneagram is? I think before we get into enneagram, we kind of need to understand what personality is. Yeah. So personality is actually derived from the Greek word persona, which means mask. And I love this visual because it really, it helps us understand just how much we actually wear our personalities as a mask that is very helpful in terms of protecting us and helping us show up in the world and a favorable light. So our personalities are made up of a constellation of innate qualities, coping, strategies, defense mechanisms, reflexes and affects that really do protect us from possible harm

or rejections in childhood, right? So they also allow us to show up in a favorable light for our coaches and our teachers and our friends, you know, all the people that are important to us. So our personalities are a powerful survival strategy. And human beings are experts. in survival. I mean, you know this. Over time, though, our personalities really become the story that we live out of, right? It's a story that we've got memorized and that we live out of really habitually, automatically. So much so that other people kind of expect to encounter our personality when they encounter us. You know, you've been in a group of people or you've come into contact with someone. and then after she leaves, you've said, turned to another friend and said, hey, what was going on with

her? She didn't seem like herself. Yes, which I feel that deeply, I might be going too far, but I feel that deeply as a seven is I have an expectation to always show up very on. And so if I'm not all over the place, it's like something's wrong with me when really it's like, no, I'm just tired. But yeah, that's the expectation people have that I'm going to be something before I'm even at the event. Absolutely. We've memorized people's personality and we have ours memorized as well. That's so true. Yeah. You as a seven are supposed to bring the juice, right? All of it. People know this about you, part of your superpower. So as we mature and become adults, obviously life gets a lot more complicated. And this personality that we really innocently gravitated to in childhood is no longer needed in the same way, right? We don't need our personalities in the same way that we're we once did for survival. We just did an episode on family systems and we talked about the family roles and this is so much, I'm obviously just going to keep talking about myself because that's what I can relate to. But so I was a mascot through growing up in my family and it was great and it helped me

survive. It helped me get my needs met and all of that. And now this matches up with what you're saying is this helps me survive. Now I'm not in that same system, but I'm still playing that role. And I don't need that role as much. Yeah, beautifully said. That's it. You're like putting so much skin on all of this content, which is awesome. That's exactly it. When we grow into early adulthood, all of a sudden, you know, our personalities,

they don't just go on strike or disappear, right? They keep growing, they keep evolving with these expanded needs that we have in adulthood. And so our personalities kind of start working over time. in order to facilitate these new complexities that we're facing in adulthood and beyond. And so the problem is these personalities or these kind of protective mechanisms become safety hazards, right? When we no longer differentiate between who we are as a person, you know, the unconditioned, true essential self and our overgrown personalities. You know, this is when we kind of start waking up and wondering who the hell am I? Like, I don't even know who I am anymore. And that's when people

pick up the phone and they call you and they go sit on your couch. And, you know, some kind of meltdown, some kind of crisis, existential crisis or or some loss kind of pushes them over the edge. And they all a sudden, they need to rediscover the truth of who they are because we've become so attached to personality. So I just like to kind of tee up the enneagram. I really understanding what our personality is. Our personalities are not bad. They're so helpful. They're so beneficial. And we were brilliant as children to kind of gravitate towards these personalities. The thing is, children are incredibly creative storytellers. They're just really crappy interpreters, right? Yeah. So we make up this personality story when we're young and oftentimes, carrot, we don't edit that story until well into

our adulthood. A hundred percent, which is the like meat of what most people are doing in a therapy office is they're going back and looking at what is the story that I wrote and now like what's actually the real story now that I can take a step back from that. Yes. Attachment is very similar in that as the way we're relating to the world. We make up all these stories and that helps us develop how we attached to people and that there's that's very connected to personality and so in my office if you've worked with me you have heard most of this content in the lens of attachment and your style that way and we're giving you more detailed language to look at those stories not necessarily to this is my my understanding understanding your anagram type in your personality isn't to change it we don't it's not the

goal is to change it but it gives you contacts of why am i doing that what is the need here that I'm trying to go after? What am I protecting myself from? Do I still need to do that? And so I can show up way more authentically, rather in this survival mode to get my needs met. It's spot on. Yeah, that's, you know, the nature of transformation. Basically, every spiritual teacher throughout history has had pretty much the same message.

And it's to wake up. That is the invitation. That's the spiritual invitation. That is the spiritual journey is to go from the unreal to the real. That's the appeal. And so that's exactly what's happening. Transformation at the heart of transformation is narrative. Is us holding up, like you said, holding up our personality story and asking ourselves,

how's this working for me? And the beauty of being a human being is that we have agency to change our stories. I want you to repeat that because that's the biggest thing that people, I think they see, oh, this is my story. And they're like, I'm stuck with it. And we don't have to stick with it. In that sentence, we have agency to change our story. Once we realize the truth, we don't have to live in a false reality or something that we've made up to help us survive anymore. We have the ability to change. So what do you like then about using the enneagram versus there's a lot of ways to look at your personality? And when I was in grad school, which wasn't that long ago,

we didn't talk one bit about the enneagram. We talked about Myers-Briggs, and we ought to take that test, but it wasn't even mentioned. Totally. Not that it wasn't around. So what do you like about it, and why do you think it's become so huge?

That is the deal, right? I mean, the enneagram. So let me tell you what the enneagram is. We've just kind of teed it up by talking about personality. So in essence, the enneagram is this kind of, a lot of people say it's ancient.

It's actually, I mean, there are clues of the enneagram that date back to the fourth century as a beautiful kind of archetypal map, if you will. Now, the modern enneagram of personality really has just gotten more momentum starting back in like the 1970s. The enneagram that we use with the nine types is fairly new. It's a holistic personality and character typing system that's used to deepen self-awareness and understanding. And I want to break that down for you. Basically, again, personality being derived from that Greek word meaning mask, the personality basically is more on the surface. So when you took the Myers-Briggs, that is really diving into more surface-level behavior, kind of the optics of who we are on the surface. The character structure of each type,

however, goes deeper than personality. The character structure basically unpacks the why behind how we think feel and act. So that is why, to answer your question, the enneagram of personality is a powerful tool that I love to use in therapy because our lives and the agency that we have to change our story has to be supported by an understanding. of our story. And the enneagram provides that. Myers-Briggs, which I think it's a great tool. I love strengths finders. I love disc. All of those are really powerful, but they don't go beneath personality to this underlying character structure that talks about motivations, that talks about just the why behind who we are. So that's a powerful complexity that the enneagram provides. And if you

look at the enneagram, it's actually a diagram of nine points. And it can be used literally in therapy if we learn how to use it properly as a roadmap to help us get unstuck, essentially. I love this quote. It's a Michelangelo quote. And it says the sculpture is already complete within the marble block before I start my work. I already there. I just have to chisel away the superfluous material. That's good. And that's so good. To me, that quote is all about becoming our truest selves, right? Everything we need, we've got. That's why what you said about deleting and replacing our personality, we're not trying to do that. We're trying to enhance what's already there. We're trying to connect in a very intimate way to what's already there. You know, we were born into this world as

loving, curious beings. We were born into this world without fear. The fear part we learned. So we have to kind of get back to our true nature, not by changing who we are, but by learning about and harnessing the truest version of ourselves. And I believe that the Enneagram is the most powerful tool we have to do that. And I think in all of what you just said, what I'm hearing a lot of is the Enneagram is a tool when used correctly helps us come back home. Like, come back home. It's like we've lost our way or I don't know. We took a turn that we, whatever, but it helps us come back home.

It doesn't change us. It just brings us back to who we are. Yes, that is it. So what you wouldn't want to do that. I want to. I know. I know. And again, like a lot of people misuse this tool.

You know, a lot of people misuse it. and it becomes very annoying. Yeah. I mean, I will say I used to follow a lot of accounts and I've unfollow them, not because I'm not interested in the Enneagram, but I'm like, well, first of all, this doesn't describe me at all as a seven. And now I almost have like, well, I'm not a good enough seven. But then it's like, well, why are we doing this?

Because is it to be like, oh, I know you. You're a seven, I know you. Or is it to like, it's not used to understand deeper. it's like to assume almost. Yeah. Is that how you've been seeing it? Yeah. There's a whole kind of ethics.

I mean, that's a whole other podcast conversation is the ethics around the enneagram. There is a way to use this and honor it. When it's used for hype and to indulge our type tendencies, that is when we abuse it. Yeah. I like the word. I indulge. I like that. Yeah.

Yeah. When we use it to indulge our type tendencies, that is when it. it becomes abusive and misused. So I just want to apologize. Blanket public service announcement. Apology. If you have encountered this tool and it's been misused and you've really been turned off, I do apologize.

I hope you'll give it another chance because, you know, at the heart of self-love, before we love anything or anyone, we have to understand who they are. Before we can love ourselves, we have to learn how to understand ourselves. And I just believe that the, the enneagram is the most powerful tool we have to help us understand and develop more compassion

for ourselves and others. And in light of that, the enneagram teaching basically says that there are nine core types of personality, one of which we gravitated to early in childhood. That's not just to say that there are only nine types of people in the world. You are a human being before your enneagram type. This is just, again, it's a helpful indicator that helps you navigate. This is interesting, like what you said about going home to the truth of who you are. I think is so brilliant. I think it's so true. I like to call it a personalized roadmap for soulful self-awareness and development.

You know, it's really about getting unstuck. It's really about getting out of our own way. It's about going home to the. truth of who you are. So yes, I love that you kind of drew that out. It's so true. For the people that are, I mean, you could be a veteran in this or think you're a veteran or you're brand new to this. Now that we know what it is, okay, so I'm going to go dart out, taking some tests online, get some, a couple like core numbers that might be kind of what I gravitate towards. When they're doing this, because what my understanding, when I first started

this journey figuring out my own type, I was told to look at it, look at the traits and the things, not you now, but you, I think it was like before you were like 24 or something. I might have made that up. Is that true? What version of you are is you supposed to be thinking of? You know, again, I think people kind of tend to overcomplicate it. It's true. If you're on a fence about a question that you're answering on some type of online test and you don't know which one is true, they say to go back to when you're around 22 years old because that's when your personality is most kind of florid, most vibrant, if you will. That's when our personalities are really, really in action.

But, you know, I like to say most of the good tests out there, they have enough questions on them to kind of weed through what you are and what you're not. But I think that is a good rule of thumb. You know, if you're just on the fence about a question, you're like, gosh, do I do this or do I do this? you know, a good rule of them is to go back to your early 20s and what would you do then? That's kind of a good litmus test for what the right answer is. The Enneagram, again,

suggests that there's nine types, nine personality types. And those nine types of personalities are divided into three triads. And the three triads are based in our centers of intelligence. So the Enneagram, again, recognizes that there's three. centers of intelligence, the mind, the heart, and the body, and they're equally as important in terms of understanding the way we work and understanding the world. And this is spelled out for all the enneagram types. If you are an eight, a nine, and a one, you live in the body or instinctual center of intelligence. If you are a two, three, and a four, you live in the feelings or the heart triad or center of intelligence. And then if you're five, six,

seven, you are in the head or mental center of intelligence. So we're going to run through kind of what those are, what's the breakdown, why are they important? And then we'll dive into type and through nine. So Western science and medicine has really, really elevated one center of intelligence, which is our thinking center of intelligence above the other two. And this goes all the way back to kind of Descartes. I think therefore I am, this kind of inability to separate our humanity from our head center of intelligence. That was the elevated and it really has been ever since center of intelligence. Yet so many ancient traditions, the Enneagram included, talk about three centers of intelligence. Of course, the head center of intelligence, but the body and the heart center of intelligence.

And modern medicine is finally catching up to this ancient wisdom as they've found neural cells, basically in the linings of our stomachs and our hearts. So we have brain cells in our brain, but also in our heart and in our gut. Oh, that's so cool. Isn't that cool? It excites me so much that kind of Western psychology and medicine, we're catching up to this ancient wisdom that really honors the body. center of intelligence as wisdom and the emotional center of intelligence as wisdom as well. So it's,

it's so cool because the Enneagram teaches that basically part of self-development and self-understanding is to understand what center of intelligence you operate from and how to balance out your relationship with all three centers. And one's not better than the other, right? See, And one's not good. That's what I like is that one is not better than the other. There's three and they're equal. You just lean towards one more than others. Absolutely.

So as a four, I very much experience the world through my heart center of intelligence. You know, my feelings have feelings. I can feel something at the drop of a half, right? That tends to be where I'm out of balance. And so the goal is not to turn down that emotional center. it's to dial up the other two. So I need to connect more to the analytical skills and the fact-checking. The logical part of your brain. Logical part of my brain as well as connecting to this grounded center of intelligence with the instinctual center. So getting into my body, getting into my kind of thinking mind a little bit more. I can't feel my way to a deadline, right? Right. So I got to enlist these other two try it.

or centers of intelligence, you know, Helen Palmer, who is one of the founders of the narrative enneagram school that I did my training at, she likes to say that body types need to get more into their hearts, heart types need to get more into their heads and head types need to get more into their bodies. So it's probably a little bit oversimplified, but it's, I think it's a really great place to start in terms of actually using the enneagram for application. I've never heard somebody describe stuff. Maybe I just haven't heard it that way, but in the sense that this isn't just to say that like you are a body type or you are this, it's to say this is where you lean the most and you need more of the others. I've always heard it as almost not a death sentence, but kind of like, this is you.

You're in the heart triad, so this is how you are rather than I just want you to know you're in the heart triad because that's a clue to tell you, you're good on that. You need to lean on these other parts a little bit more. Totally. I like the way you explain that. And, you know, every triad has one type that typically overdoes that center. I'll continue to put myself on the operating table. But in the heart triad, fours tend to overdo their emotion. Threes tend to kind of repress their emotion. and twos tend to kind of underdo it or, you know, kind of stuff it and put on a happy face. And so even within your triad, kind of like in the body triad too, like eights tend to kind of overdo their anger.

Nines tend to forget their anger. You know, ones are kind of in repression with their anger. So even within their, our triads, there is a fine tuning of our relationship with that center of intelligence. Yes, you're right. It is a balancing both within the triad and within the other triads in our relationship all the way around. It's just really fascinating. And like I said, the heart triad is made up of two, threes, and fours, the head triad, five, sixes and sevens and the body triad, eights, nine's and ones. And type eight is kind of where I jump off in terms of unpacking each type. So we'll start at the top of the diagram. with type eight, often called the challenger, often called the protector. Eight's attention goes to who's got the control. Eights are self-confident, decisive, willful, oftentimes confrontational. And they are kind of their unconscious motivation is the need to protect themselves and others to avoid being

controlled and to pave their own way in life. They're obviously very one of the assertive types and they're very self-referencing. They seek justice. So, you know, eights get a bad rap. Yeah. Because, especially eight women, because they can be a little rough around the edges. And, you know, they do like to challenge, but it's typically out of justice. Yeah. They do have a real pulse on, on justice and the good of all. They're really trying to affect change for the good of the marginalized or or the week. And so, gosh, I think eights tend to be the most misunderstood. Yeah. Well, you know, I think it was in Ian Kron's, the road back to you. I think it was in that his book that was, when I was reading the eights, it said that eight's view confrontation as intimacy. So where

some people are like, oh my gosh, I can't believe. They're like, I was feeling really close to you. And somebody else can interpret that, especially if you're not an eight as I can't believe them, like whatever if they really don't like confrontation, but really that's their way to feel close or express love in the form of justice seeking. Yeah, it totally is. Your love language is just shooting straight from the hip. It's not, it's not beating around the bush, you know, that doesn't feel loving to them. I think, yeah, I love that. I think I remember reading that totally. Well, it doesn't feel loving to be passive, aggressive, probably. Is that fit? Or just passive and general. they're going to be direct because that's the way they show love. And a lot of people think that a way to

show love is to avoid, which isn't better. It's not better. No, not at all. It's not better. It's not better. And we have to remember, again, if we're looking at the story, the personality story, yeah, time eights, a lot of time had to grow up before the rest of us, you know, they had to, they were really young when they had to grow up. They had to be strong. They had to be tough. They had to care for other people and take care of other people, including, including themselves. So they didn't have the luxury of this kind of childlike innocence or so they think. So that is, again, it's their survival. Yeah. And how they, it's how they communicate. It's just the way they learned, right? And, you know, they bring big energy into the room and they use that energy really to

affect change. I always say, if you want to start a new business, partner with an eight. They just, they get, they get stuff done. And they're incredibly efficient. They do fear being harmed, controlled or betrayed. Pertrail is a big deal for them. They value independence and resist again, being indebted to anyone. So, so when they're healthy, they are natural leaders. And they have a really solid commanding presence. And they just, they just fiercely protect their people. And I think there might be fear in relationships with an eight, but also if it's a healthy relationship, it sounds like that person would be sticking by your side and fighting for you and helping you make your dreams come true. I could be making that up. But so it sounds like.

Yeah, no, you're not making that up. Not at all. You know, their invitation is to connect to their own vulnerability, you know, because that's what they had to survive, not being able to do at such a young age. So can the invitation, you know, the package, you know, the package. with type eight, the emotional pattern to get stuck in is lust. And I don't mean lust in a sexual sense. It's just kind of this lust, this intensity for life. And they, you know, along the way, they lose touch with their innocence and vulnerability. So connecting back to that, that vulnerability is part of the work of an eight. So would you say what's hard about being an eight is the, I mean, would you say fear of vulnerability or, or difficulty being vulnerable? Like what's tough about

being an eight. I mean, I think there's, there's a lot of things. I think people misunderstand eights a lot of times. Again, especially women. You know, if you're a guy and you're an eight in a boardroom, you're a strong leader. If you're a woman and you're a strong eight and you know, in a boardroom, you're a bitch. Right. A hundred percent. And so I think, you know, eights have, obviously like we all do. They have vulnerable parts of who they are, but they just, they have been conditioned to not access those parts or show them to anyone. So that is, that is hard. You know, always having to be strong.

I work with so many amazing eight women clients who just are exhausted. You're exhausted. They are so tired of being strong. They're so tired of pressing the needle forward. And a lot of times they just don't feel like they have the luxury to relax. So I like the idea of the invitation for. eight so something that they might need to hear is it's okay to be vulnerable it's okay to let your guard down something like that to connect those softer parts yeah to show the world those softer parts yeah because

we want to see them or i do i want to see the soft parts you know type nine's moving moving forward often called the mediator or the peacemaker wait i got to say this because it's just funny i put out a question on instagram that said what do you want to know at the anyagram what are your questions and multiple people this was not i did not expect this multiple people said why is nine the best number and usually it's like talk about why seven's the best number but so many nines were like one i got more questions about nines than any but multiple people are like talk about why nines are the best and i'm like that's got i like that so great they are so beloved just like sevens you know i've heard different theories but i've just heard people

also say that there's more not type nines than any other type i don't know if that plays into it But, oh, yeah, nines are just, they're so lovable. You know, their attention always kind of goes to the agenda of others and how to keep the peace, obviously. They're easygoing, self-effacing, laid back, receptive, agreeable. They're motivated. This unconscious motivation is, you know, the need to kind of avoid to avoid pain, avoid confrontation to keep the peace for themselves and others.

They see the value in everyone. point of view. That's why a lot of times they are called a mediator. And I think a lot of people feel seen by type nines. I'm married to a nine. And he just doesn't have really, he's also a drummer. So he just, he feels fine in the background, you know, like he doesn't need to be in the limelight. He doesn't need, you know, all eyes on him. He's very, very conscientious about checking in with, you know, kind of the least of these and just finding out how he can, you know, they can feel more at ease. Their belief is that you are good or okay as long as others around you are good or okay. So they do tend to be spiritually very, very grounded and they're healthy and definitely

grounded in the physical world can be very steady, energy wise. And, you know, obviously in unhealthy levels, nines can have real trouble making decisions they can become lazy to their own self-development. They can become overly dependent on the agendas of other people. You know, they can tend to kind of nark out and numb out more than any other. They're kind of the prototype, right? I mean, we all numb, but they are kind of the prototype for it. And numbing in any specific ways or just anything?

I think it just depends. Like a lot of, like TV can be a big number. I've heard people say video games. sleep can be a number comfort they said this at the at the narrative training that I went through they're like comfort is not your friend as a nine right like for a lot of people comfort is a way of kind of self-care etc but for the nine you know they tend to kind of overdue comfort and indulge comfort so much so that they will kind of fall asleep to the world around them what's the deal with a nine in anger because they act like they don't care this is generalization

obviously, but they actually don't care about a lot of stuff, but what do they do with their anger? How are they processing it? Are they falling asleep to their anger and numbing their anger? Falling asleep to their anger? Because if they were to access their anger, that could threaten their connection to other people, right? That would threaten their unconscious motivation of keeping the peace. So of course they have anger, but they just kind of fall asleep to it. You know, if you ask a nine when the last time they got angry was they'd probably tell you like in 2016 or something. Yeah.

Like they can go a long time without really accessing it. But I believe that they're kind of the spiritual work, the deeper work for the type nine is to access anger in a healthy sense. Because we talk about feelings all the time on this podcast and anger is one of my favorite feelings because it shows us what we want and shows us it brings justice to situations. and it lets us know that we have boundaries. And so would the invitation to a nine be just that of like to like allow themselves to feel that anger?

So at eights feels vulnerable and then a nine would be like get angry. Yeah. I mean, I think eights, I mean, nines and ones have a tricky relationship with anger. We'll talk about that when we talk about one here in a second. But yeah, I think probably I know for myself, really anger is is at the heart of it is passion. And that to me is the most beautiful state of any nine. Like when they get passionate about something and they find their voice and they use it, that is to me when I feel most attracted to nines.

And I feel like, wow, I want to shut up because you're talking and you don't waste or mince words very often, you know. So I think part of connecting with the deeper fears around anger, you know, unpacking like if if you and I were to work with a nine a type nine client you know maybe part of what we would work through is exploring their relationship with anger you know exploring kind of how they came to that relationship with anger and then really providing some safe space to access that anger so that no no tie will be severed and we see them and just the same light and beauty as we once did right it's the lot that kind of the lot that glues their character structure together this kind of belief that they make up in their head that i'm only okay or loved if i can keep the peace we're trying

to invite and and and support our nines to live beyond that yeah they just don't learn that conflict can happen and there can be repair yes beautiful way of saying it so type one again about the the the last body type nines if we want to jump in to anger again, nines tend to push down their anger or they tend to show their anger as frustration or resentment because anger for a type one is seen as kind of a bad emotion. And they don't want to be bad. And the unconscious motivation is to be seen as right and good for a type one. So if they were to become angry and give way to that anger, again, that could threaten their, They're, you know, this belief that they hold so tightly that they have to be good.

They have to be right. And that is, that's not good and right. Anger is not a good emotion. It's not okay. So would ones look, do they look happy all the time? Well, or no, they look frustrated. They tend to be a little bit more serious. Okay.

But they kind of express their anger as frustration. They look really head types a lot of times, right? So it's almost like if you, if I were to ask like, Are you angry? They'd be like, no, I'm just annoyed. It's like, they won't, they won't, they won't give way to that kind of full expression of anger. Okay. It's part of their deep inner work too is to kind of repair that relationship with anger. Because what happens is, you know, they can kind of repress, repress, repress, repress, forget, forget, forget, you know, whatever and fly off the handle, you know, go to that impaired state, which is rage. Their attention type one's often called the reformer. A lot of people,

know type ones as the perfectionist, although gosh, I don't know about you, but I meet so many ones that just don't see themselves as perfectionist. Yeah, and that throw, I think that's what throws a lot of people off when it comes to one. They're like, no, I'm not organized or I'm not this or I'm not that or I don't have to have everything in line. And so they just throw that type out the window when it really might be who they are. Yeah, that's why I love to just encourage people. Don't decide your type based on the name of the time. I like to just call it. type, you know, type one, type two, type three instead of the perfectionist. Yeah.

Because they really can be misleading. Yeah. But yeah, their attention goes to what's missing or wrong in a room and how to improve it, right? A lot of, some people call them the improvers. How to improve what's already there. They're super rational, super organized, idealistic, purposeful. They can be really characterized by this need to be good and bird. virtuous and in balance and integrity is a huge word for type one.

Which I need lots of ones in my life as a seven. Right. They're so helpful. Bring you into balance. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and just like my head is going 17 different directions and they can almost help like balance, I guess, center me where I'm like, I don't care about that.

Sometimes they're like, well, you should care because this helps this part of this. They just see things. I don't have that ability to see. Yeah. That's really interesting. I love hearing that. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That is a resource point for you in terms of like your flow line to the one.

You know, they, the flip side of that is they can be super overly critical. And I think of all the types, they have the most violent inner critic. And, you know, this unconscious belief that they, they have is like you must be good and right to be worthy. There's a lot of shame, I feel like, associated to with type ones oftentimes, you know, they're just highly conscientious, responsible. Like if I ever have brain surgery, I really want to type one as my nurse surgeon, hands down. Why do you think that like childhood, is there one specific or main childhood wound that gets hit for these people that fall into the one category?

Or is it more of a belief system of I'm not good enough? Yeah, I think I think that, you know, there's a lot of rigidity, a lot of, you know, sometimes not measuring up at a really small age. a lot of times being brought up and highly structured, highly rigid, oftentimes maybe military households where the emphasis was a lot around maybe legalism, just a lot of, a lot of rules, a lot of early responsibility. What's their take on vulnerability? Is that seen as good or bad or scary? What does vulnerability look like typically? I think a lot of ones in a way, probably weren't allowed to be super vulnerable either. And so this kind of zipped up persona that they

really let on and lead with doesn't leave a lot of room again for the kind of softer, squishy parts that could easily be wounded. You know, there's a lot of armoring up, you know, for the type one as well. I always love to encourage type ones to think in terms of excellent. rather than perfection and doing, you know, doing your best, but not making it about perfection. You know, it's what is that, you know, that quote. Is it Hemingway or somebody that says, and now that you don't have to be perfect, you can be good. I think it is from East of Eden. But now that you don't have to be perfect, you can be good.

You know, like, it's okay. You don't have to make up your bed every single day in the morning right when you get out of bed. You know, you can be five minutes late every once in a while. We're still going to love you and be for you. Yeah. You know, I've heard multiple times that people who struggle with eating disorders fall in line with this type the most. Have you found that to be true?

Or is that just something that's floating on the internet? I've never read that, but I could see that being true. The more restrictive type of an eating disorder. I mean, there's things that you've said in every single number we've gone through so far that would lead somebody to any type of addiction. and I view an eating disorder as a process addiction. And so it could be anything, but this very like perfectionistic need to look this way,

I need to look the part probably falls more into the more susceptible, which correct me if I'm wrong, sevens go to one when they're in unhealth, right? Well, I have a little bit of a different take. Oh, it is called, for a lot of people call that like the stress point. Yeah. Type 7. I think it's just a resource point, right?

Okay. You know, when you start to get overly critical and perfectionistic, you know, that's a wake-up call. That's an invitation to practice some self-compassion. I love that. Be direct, right? So I don't love the like disintegration integration language. I see every flow line and arrow as a resource, a resource point. So, you know, I think that absolutely type ones provide like that type, you know, if you,

really glean from the higher side of the type one, you bring a lot of, you know, organization and follow through. And you can, you can glean so much from that type. Also, it's a great red flashing light. You to say, oh, wow, there I go again. I'm doing that thing. I'm being overly critical of myself or others. I'm tending towards some perfectionism. I need to choose something different. So I think it's a great resource. So did one triad. Shall we go to the next? Yeah.

Let's dive into the heart triad. Two, threes and fours. Type two is often known as the helper, often known as the befriender. Their attention goes to connections or alliances with people. They are the most relational people on the aneogram. Their attention goes to how can I be liked, right? How can I be accepted and loved?

They're caring, relational, generous people can be people pleasing and often possessive as well. Type 2s are driven by the need to be needed. That's their unconscious motivation in life. And they feel way more comfortable giving than receiving. They're often totally unaware of their needs and how to get their needs met. That is, if you have a loved one in your life that's a type 2, ask them what they need every single day. be curious about their needs and desires. Tues really often suffer from poor boundaries because they know themselves so much in relation

to people. And unhealthy spaces, type twos can be codependent and manipulative. Have you seen that show on Netflix dead to me? Have you watched that? Oh my gosh. It's such a good series. But there is one of the main characters is the poster child for an unhealthy too. Oh, gosh.

So it's, yeah, anyway, I'll just leave that there. They can often kind of play the role of the martyr. And healthy levels, though, type 2s are, gosh, they are the people that we are most drawn to. They are just so incredibly lovable and kind and warm, compassionate and just intrinsically generous. They just are such, such beautiful people inside and out. I mean, it's just, it's just amazing. I feel so, my life feels so much. richer with my type two friends.

What I've heard their superpower is they can walk into a room and they can sense out like who needs something. Like they just know, which can be really hard too because I don't have that superpower. And I can walk into a room and totally miss what somebody needs. And so if you are a two and you're somebody who can walk into a room and be like, oh, this person needs this, it can be somewhat frustrating that nobody's doing that back to you because it makes

sense in your head. Yeah, a lot of times where type 2s get into trouble, like you said, they give with the expectation of giving in return, either of quality time or some kind of reciprocity. So yeah, twos, two can get into trouble. You know, part of the encouragement and the work for type 2's is just to have boundaries around your generosity and to give without an agenda. That's where some of the manipulation can come in to focus. as part of the feeling or heart triad, you know, the relationship, the dominant emotion and the heart

triad is sadness and grief. And so, you know, two's part of their work is to get in touch with their sadness and grief because they tend to be really cheery oftentimes. That's reductive to say that they all are, but they oftentimes do appear and present as really upbeat and positive. A lot like sevens. Accessing sadness and grief could again threaten that connection to other. people, you know, it can be off-putting or so they think. So connecting to that, those emotions is part of the deep work for type 2s as well as really connecting to their own personal and emotional needs. Type 3 is the achiever. And type 3s are, gosh, they are kind of like the Arabian horse of the anyogram. Right? They know how to go. Yeah. They're quite something. You know, their attention

goes to how to appear successful and how to appear successful, like seamlessly and what tasks need to be accomplished to appear successful, right? So obviously success oriented, goal oriented. They're very adaptable. They're very, very driven. They're probably the most image conscious people on the enneagram. Their unconscious motivation is the need to achieve, the need to succeed. Threes are like the stars of the enneagram and healthy spaces, they are really looked up to for their personal accomplishments and their graciousness. However, when threes are super, you know, in unhealthy spaces, they can almost become kind of narcissistic and a little too hell bent on success and kind of become shallow. Is it they want to be successful or look successful? Both.

Both. Okay. Things to do with success they want. And, you know, they're not afraid to work to get there. These are the people that, you know, literally like it's hard for them to go on vacation without taking their laptop because work is fun. Work equals fun for them. And so they have a hard time separating out work from life. And yeah, they just, gosh, and they have a lot, a lot of energy. They live by the mantra, you are good or okay as long as you appear successful and others think well of you. And we all know kind of the problems, how that can become really problematic. I have a huge love need, right? They believe, and as do really all the heart tight, that a huge love need that did not, talk about attachment, did not get met in childhood. Garnering the love and approval of whoever

they're with by appearing successful is, is just where their attention goes all the time. How do they deal with their feeling? They basically serve as a speed bump, you know, right? Like, Emotions are kind of like a speed bump. They just kind of slow them down. Yeah. It's like annoying. Totally. But threes are so feeling.

They absolutely are feelers. They just don't feel necessarily safe accessing those because they, it's almost like if I do, I'll be overtaken. Yeah. They don't, they need to understand, learn how to kind of manage their emotional experience, go in and out without feeling like they're going to be overwhelmed. I mean, I think that's probably a good thing for all of us to do. But yes, threes very much downplay their emotions.

But this does not mean there's a myth that they're not emotional. That's that's that's not true. They're definitely feelers. They just distance themselves from their feelings, really for survival, because success is survival for them. And feelings are not, they're going to slow down that, that process, that trajectory. Moving into fours, what have a lot of fours in your life? I don't have a lot of fours in my life, a lot of four clients, but I just feel like you said

eights are misunderstood. I feel like fours are so misunderstood. I think you're right. And that's a big fear that type fours have. Fours are especially very misunderstood in relationships. Yeah, I mean, we can be pretty difficult. I'm not going to lie. Like four really, really tough. I mean, we can all be tough. But I do think the drama component of fours in relationship, if they're not operating in a healthy space can be really difficult and tiresome. Type fours, the attention, they're called the romantic or idealist, oftentimes, the artist. That's, I think, that one of the main myths for type fours is that they're all creative, which I think their self-expression is a very, as a valuable part of their experience and something they highly, highly value self-expression.

But their attention goes to kind of like the type ones, their attention goes to what's missing in the moment or how this moment could be better or more perfect, you know. And it's kind of like the grass is always greener. Type 4s really fall into that rut. They also, their, you know, their attention goes to what can be negative in the present moment. So, yeah, it can be a real drag. Sensitive, creative, oftentimes pretty withdrawn, expressive. dramatic, moody. Of course, can be very, very moody and very motivated by this need to be special and stand out and find significance, you know, kind of beauty and pathos. Sorry, that's my one-year-old in there.

Squealty. Often called like the individualist type fours really have this need to maintain their identity and by seeing themselves as fundamentally different. And that doesn't necessarily mean different in a good way, just different, kind of flawed and deficient. Fours have just this rich emotional life, interior life. They can also really indulge those emotions and fall prey to hyper, you know, introspection and self-absorption. Really, if we're not careful, they can, again, fixate on what's missing. And they're characterized by this deep sense of longing, right?

This longing for beauty and longing for, wholeness and union with either a place or a person or an ideal situation. There's this, again, pervasive feeling, like you said, of being misunderstood for fours, which can really result in isolation. So like you said, I think a lot of depression, anxiety, it's very common for type fours to experience that along the way. They do have strong kind of aesthetic sensibilities. They pride themselves in that.

They pride themselves on being extraordinary, kind of avoiding. anything too basic or pedestrian, right? I mean, again, I'm hearing myself talk and I'm cringing on the inside. We can be lovely people, but no. So yes, those are, tell me what your, your kind of experience with type four as clients. Well, I mean, emotional. But then I think the hard time is accepting that this is a good part of them, because I see a lot of the beauty in the world, like they're disdain towards like basicness helps create a lot of, of what makes our world so great and what keeps us moving. So we're not all staying the same because there's fours out there being like, I don't want to be that way. So then they create a trend. And then

we go to that trend and then they create a new trend. And so I think it's hard sometimes the labels that the world puts on somebody just from the characteristics of the four type. But rather than being like, oh, I hate that I'm that way, there's parts that you can embrace in that. And one of my favorite things that I've heard about the enneagram is that these like quote unquote negative qualities are are the flip side of the best parts about you. Totally. And so it's hard for, it's my experience been hard for us to be like, oh. Yeah, you're so right.

What a great point. Thank you for making that point. Yeah. I mean, just like anything, you know, our strength can also be our weakness. Yeah. And it's so true. I think sevens, I think your sevens are trendsetters, you know, speaking of trendsetters. Yes, absolutely.

Yeah. that that beautiful kind of pathos and beauty like this fascination with pathos and beauty and meaning and all of this stuff can also be taken to a big extreme with fours comparison with others is huge fall into the trap of envy that's our kind of like the passion of the fours envy which can often look like admiration even you know like me saying oh my gosh your hair is so awesome I love it you you know, love your hair. Like that can be like a form of envy almost for type fours. We, we mean well, but we just have this constant kind of like, oh, wow, that's so beautiful. And moving along into this kind of last but not least head center of intelligence, thinking center of intelligence

and type fives, which to me are some of the most fascinating people in the world. I like know maybe one. Yeah. I don't know if there's like a lesser number of fives in the world, but they just, they feel like a rare bird. And I love meeting five. Their attention, they're often called the observer or the investigator. Their attention goes outward to observing or scanning, often to their thinking capacities. Their, their kind of interior castle is their mind. They are constantly hoovering up information, wanting to master all kinds of different subjects from the stars. to the animal kingdom, to their favorite show is like how it's made, right? Right.

Yeah. Intense cerebral, very perceptive, innovative, secretive, isolating. Fives are really, again, motivated by that sense of mastery. More than any other type, fives seek to understand why things are the way they are. And yeah, they're, I mean, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Stephen Hawking, these are all really heavy hitters for the fives in terms of culture changers too. I mean, I think fives are often known for kind of like how nerdy, smart they are and innovative. But often, I mean, they really are culture changers. Healthy fives are able to manage a balance of energy between participation and

observation, right? They do participate in the conversation when they're in a healthy space and they engage with others comfortably. And they have an amazing ability to, to demonstrate neutrality, really, but often very, very introverted and very private. Vives really struggle with generosity. They can be stingy emotionally and even materialistically. You know, they're, again, just brilliant, brilliant people. And their invitation is the emotional kind of rut they get in as greed, kind of, again, like saving up all their energy and making sure they have enough to kind of last and through the day. Cording. Yeah. That's. a great word for it too. Avris is another word for it. And the invitation here for the type five is

non-attachment. So not necessarily detaching, but having a non-attachment to things or possessions and just for like being able to open up and receive freely, give freely for nines. Fascinating people. Type six is the loyalist. They're awesome. I love. I love sixes. I love sixes. I always said that I want to marry a six. Oh, you should you should totally marry a six. I can see that in a good thing. I'm going to be on the lookout for a nice six chat. But be worthy of you. So yeah, type six is their attention goes to what could go wrong in any given situation and they magnify that. So they figuring things out and being prepared. They're kind of the Boy Scouts of the Enneagram. They're always scanning. They're committed, security oriented. They're very engaging, responsible, can be anxious,

really gravitating sometimes in unhealthy spaces to paranoia. Type sixes are motivated by the need to be safe and secure and they will display loyalty, oh my goodness, to their friends and believe beyond any other type. We all need some good sixes on our teams. They're at the center of the thinking triad. So, again, very cerebral and very others referencing, very compliant. Sixth's basic fear is to be without support, to be without guidance. So they have a very interesting relationship with authority. They're kind of called worst case scenario thinkers. If you call them a pessimist, they will correct you immediately and tell you that they're realist, right? They don't like to find themselves in unpredictable situations. They really like to be prepared.

And healthy levels, they are super productive, logical thinkers, always organize their thoughts around what would be the best case scenario for the common good. They're amazing team players. They're witty and understanding and compassionate of others. The way I see six is, especially when it comes to me, because I'm like on the side where let's do everything and let's do this and let's do that. I don't think through anything. And a six is the person that's like standing at the door being like, wait, did you think this through?

Well, what about this? That essentially they're the reason the world has not like completely blown up. Totally. We still exist as a human species because of sixes. Yes, that's how I see them. And like, I haven't like combusted because of my six friends. Very true. That's so, so spot on.

I love it. I love it. I love it. I mean, yeah, we wouldn't be here. We would not be here as a species if it weren't with sixes. Okay. So for the sake of time. What is, because we're going to move to spend a second on seven, but what does the six need to hear? What's their invitation?

The invitation for the six is faith to allow us to see their courage by living out of a space of having faith, of cultivating their faith. They don't have to have all the answers. And there's no, there's no such thing as having all the, all the answers, right? There's no way we can be completely 100% secure and certain, right? So the invitation for type six is to cultivate your faith. And it's okay to not have all the answers, right? It's okay to rely on other people. I love that for sixes because, you know, it's like that saying that, you know, courage is not the absence of fear. It's showing up despite your fear. And that's the invitation. That's what six needs to hear. I love that. Yeah. Okay. Now can we talk about seven? If we didn't talk about sevens, this would this would just not be half as fun.

And that's kind of why I like to start with eights and end with sevens because sevens, they could easily, you know, get distracted and have kind of checked out. We would have left. Yeah, I would have stopped this podcast. You were out getting cocktail hour with your meeting your other seven friends doing something fabulous and drinking something bubbly. I love it. No, I love type seven so, so much. One of my absolute best friends in the whole wide world is seven, and she just keeps me so grounded with her positivity. I love it. Seven's often called the epicure or the enthusiast or the adventurer. Their attention, and I can't wait to have you speak to the sevens. Your attention goes to planning and future-based opportunities and plans, whatever feels good. Their unconscious belief is that you are okay. as long as you stay up and open, right? Your energy is up and open. Sevens are amazing entrepreneurs,

podcast hosts. I mean, they're just really brilliant minds and thinkers, fast thinkers. I think sevens are the fastest, the most innovative thinkers on the Enneagram. Very, very optimistic. Sevens approach life with a sense of adventure and can-do spirit and openness and curiosity. Always planning the next great thing and vacation or party or meal. They are collectors of friends. Oh my goodness. Very anticipatory. It's difficult sometimes for sevens to finish projects or paths. It can be pretty pretty difficult. That's what you were describing as like enlisting some of those one qualities, type one qualities or type six qualities. They do not like confrontation typically, heavy conversations. Very popular with lots of friends

and people. They're the life of any party. In healthy places, type sevens are able to incorporate pain and disappointment into the whole of their lives and experiences and rather than avoiding it, right? So they're not only fun and adventurous, but they're also spiritually grounded people and practical and also very, very resilient. I think that is the invitation for type sevens. It's the resilience factor. You know, it's just such a superpower. I feel like for sevens. Yes, tell me, speak. Speak into. Yeah. I mean, I feel all of those things. I think that sevens are, I mean, and we act this way and that we are looked at this way.

It's like we're always fun all the time. Life is light. Life is bubbly. It has been, I think, the biggest struggle of becoming a therapist is my personality. Really? In the sense, it's super hard for me to center in like emotions that are hard to feel, which for me, emotion that's hard to feel is sadness and hurt. Breakups have been way harder than I think they should be.

Because feeling that kind of pain is something I'm not used to. And I don't know when it's going to end. I'm not so much excited about like a trip. I'm excited about the fact that I have something to look forward to. And so in breakups, they've been really hard because I don't know when that pain's going to go away. So I can't have something to look forward to. And people are so important to me. Like I do have, and I've worked on this of trying to make my circle smaller almost.

But I have so many friends and people are so important to me. relationships are so important to me. So I want to make everybody happy because I'm happy. And then when I just want to be sad, I feel guilty almost. I'm thinking back to one specific time in my life where I went through a breakup and I just heard over and over, you're not yourself, you're not yourself. And when I did become myself again, people were like, I'm so glad she's back. And that was very meaningful to me.

But also it's hard because I already have a hard time being sad. And so then it's like on top of that I feel. So, I mean, I could talk about being a seven all day long, but what I think I want most people to see is it's great to be a seven. I would not choose to trade my number. And it has pain points. And we're also, I think every number has areas where they're misunderstood. And if you are somebody who envies, somebody who is a different type or envies being a seven, I envy parts of all of the numbers and things that I wish I could gravitate towards. Now, what I trade who I am, no, the reputation of thinking.

we're the best number. And I don't feel that all the time. Yeah, I think sevens, there's a lot of misconceptions about sevens, you know, and I do think sevens, you know, I've even heard people say sevens are actually not the most optimistic. They're the most pessimistic because they're so afraid to go to that place of being sad or being in pain because they're so afraid of what that could be like, you know. So a lot, a lot of times, you know, you've heard this phrase, especially recently toxic positivity. I think sevens can kind of nark out almost on positivity. Well, and going to therapy has been so hard because I don't want to sit in that stuff and talk about gravitating towards addiction and numbing, but I mean, we could go on forever. You know, the invitation. Yeah. Or virtue is

sobriety. And I would say, again, just, kind of like the lust for type eight it's not a that's not a sexual lust it's not like an alcohol sobriety it's just basically like being sober in your experience yeah you know being awake and present presence you know i wish we had time to really go into all of the kind of opportunities for every type but for type seven the the opportunity is just to take up space in the present moment to really, really move around, allow yourself to feel the present moment. Yeah. And not trying to get, oh, 10 steps outrun your pain, you know, but just be in there.

But I think it takes a very evolved type 7 to be a therapist. I would say it takes someone. I mean, wouldn't you? It's been a challenge. A lot of like sitting in pain for type of. Like, it's just there's a lot of heaviness. And I think it takes a lot of, a lot of sobriety for type sevens to be able to do that. I mean, for a four, it's like the water we swim in.

It's so dreamy. Like, oh, I love dark emotions. Tell me, like over the top. But I think for type sevens, it can be, you know, difficult on the, on the other extreme. Yeah, totally. So thank you so much. And have a wonderful, yeah, happy Thanksgiving. And I appreciate you.

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