The Bobby Bones Show - FEELING THINGS: Understanding the Drama Triangle: Why We Play Victim, Rescuer & Persecutor

Episode Date: December 14, 2025

Kat and Amy go over the Drama Triangle today! Kat helps us unpack the difference between content vs. context (aka fact vs. the story we write about the fact), why our brains default to meaning-making, and how those stories can lift us above the line into possibility…or pull us below the line into fear, lack, and powerlessness. Kat explains the 3 unconscious roles of the Drama Triangle: Victim, Rescuer, and Persecutor + why each one feels rewarding in the moment, and how they keep us trapped in unhealthy communication loops. Both Amy and Kat share some personal stories on the Drama Triangle showing up in their own lives. They also talk about how quickly we rotate roles and what actually breaks the cycle: noticing your patterns, naming your feelings, setting boundaries, lowering expectations, and taking radical responsibility for yourself. It’s an eye-opening and immediately practical episode. Plus, Amy brings in the “burnt toast theory” to show how reframing even the smallest moments can be helpful. Get some Feeling Things merch by clicking HERE! (FeelingThingsPodcast.com) Sign up for the Feeling Things newsletter HERE! Watch us on Youtube HERE! Call and leave a voicemail: 877-207-2077 Email: [e-mail] HOSTS: Amy Brown // RadioAmy.com // @RadioAmy Kat Van Buren // threecordstherapy.com // @KatVanburenSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Search Earn Your Leisure and listen now. One, two, three. Hey, I want some, baby and cat got your cup. like a non-brough ladies and fellas we just follow in the spirit where it tells us to the chill stuff and the in-between sometimes the best thing you can do is just out and feel things this is feeling things with amy and cat happy tuesday welcome to feeling things i'm amy and i'm cat and today we are doing a drama triangle sort of deep dive. Is it a deep dive into the drama triangle or just like school time? I'd call it an overview. Oh, what, oh, overview? We're doing a, what do they call it? High level.

We're not getting into the weeds of it. Yeah. Okay. So this is just shallow dive. And then if we need to do a deep dive, we can. But I think that we'll hit what we need to hit. You know what you need to know by staying in the kitty pool. Where it's safe. This is like a hot tub. Hot tub. It's like a hot tub. It's like. like the safe part of the pool. We're not going deep. The hot tub is not, is a different part of the pool. I know, but it's generally safe, right?

Because it's not. I guess so. Like hot tubs, some people have a weird relationship with them and they don't like them. What? Like people don't like to get into hot tubs because they can be gross. The last time I did something at a public resort, it wasn't a hot tub hop hop.

It wasn't a hot tub, hot tub, hot tub. It was a hot spring hot tub. Oh, so it was natural. from the earth. And I think that the temperature of this particular spring was 105. So isn't that kill everything? Yeah. It was pretty hot. But it's snowing out. It's so cool. Well, I think most hot tubs are sanitary because don't they have chlorine in them?

Or chemicals? Or chemicals? Like a pool. Let's hope so. Anyway. I feel like if we went to the staff at any place, we'd be like, is this being treated properly? They would be like, yes. They have to say that. Exactly. And they're like, mm. Okay. Well, so we're not in the hot tub. We're just. in the hot spring. Yeah. See, I was just creating a little drama. Yeah. For the drama triangle. You didn't like it either. You were feeling feisty because I brought a pot to, well, I've already been feeling feisty today. Is that your feeling other day? I don't feel feisty. I feel like I was coming off as feisty. But that's not. But I didn't feel that. I felt frustrated. Isn't you, you're caught. Frustrated. I almost would rather you be feisty than frustrated. I wasn't mad. Okay.

It's a, what do you frustrated at? About. Can I share this? I can share this. I think so. Okay. I just like wanted to talk about my feeling of the day, which was excited. And I was excited because my birthday is coming up. And then you were like, your birthday will pass.

That's not how I said it. You said just like this. You said, your birthday will be past. You can't talk about that. That's not how I said it. And you know it. I'm teeing up an example for the drama triangle. Okay.

And you were just like, we can't talk about that. It'll be passed. Nobody will want to hear about your birthday. Okay, see what Kat's doing here is she is making me into the persecutor big time. Yeah. And she's getting to be the victim here. So I can get my needs met. Yes, which the need that she has is to talk about her birthday and it's working because here we are.

We're talking about it. And what I would like to say in regard to that is a long time ago, we had a calendar meeting on how we wanted to roll out episodes. And this is kind of behind the scenes in the weeds sort of stuff. But CAD's doing a lot of video things. And she was like, ooh, our big feeling things episode would be good if we had that done a week in advance. So we've got a lot of time to edit the clips and see what we want to pull for socials and get it on YouTube and whatnot. Yeah, okay, I get that too. Also, Houston, that gives him more time to edit as well. Well, turns out Houston has kept his same editing schedule. So I don't think if we alter it, it'll affect him at

all. But since we're recording a week out, yes, when this airs, Kat's birthday will have passed. And nobody will have cared about it. Nobody said that. I'm just kidding. But we do have an episode coming out on your birthday. So I thought that couch talks episode would be a great time to like bring up your birthday. That's all I was saying. But I think you're on to something because I want to just talk about Stevenson's race, but this will air like way after that. We can talk about our Thanksgiving plans. This is airing way after that because it's airing on like December 8th, 9th, whatever that Tuesday is. The 9th. And, you know, we can revisit this. So now if it's no difference to you, because I know it it won't bother Houston, should we just start recording our Tuesday episodes?

The Monday before, so everything's fresh. Yeah. And we are bringing in the freshest of the fresh. We can talk about our lives in real time. This is like so fresh. This is like right when the vegetables arrive at the grocery store. No, it's right when they pick them off the tree. Yeah.

The vine. You're the first customer. Pull out of the ground. Yeah. Fresh, never frozen. That kind of fresh. Yeah. Technically, our episodes now are a little bit frozen.

Yeah. And we're going to start giving them to you fresh. And I think that podcasting gives you that flexibility to pre-tape in that way. I do come from a very fresh live radio world. So that's probably why in my brain, I'm like, we're in the moment, we're doing things. Or if that has been like, we don't. You want to confuse people. Yeah.

So I was just, I'm down for that week. So now we have talked about your birthday, which is what you wanted. Happy birthday. And then we came up with a new plan that I think is going to be better. But now we just have to get on track to do that. Well, I will say I really appreciate this plan because this plan really, I think, was created for my benefit. But I think I've learned I don't start editing the clips until the week of.

Yeah. So it doesn't matter. So yay, thanks for your patience, listeners and walking through that with us. And maybe you did see a little bit of victim. mode because Kat was really turning it on. And she made me out to be persecutor in full transparency. That's not how our conversation really went. It was for dramatization purposes, we acted that out.

So in the drama triangle, there's the victim, the persecutor, and the rescuer. Yeah. It's rarely how I show up. Do you think I show up as the rescuer a lot? I mean, sometimes I kind of want to control it and fix it, but I've been working on that. Well, it's not bad. Okay. We're getting ahead of ourselves.

I know it's not bad. But I, I, okay, yeah, we're getting ahead of ourselves. So I'll let you go. Okay. Because I think that I want to talk about two things before we even get to those roles. So before we proceed, though, is there anything else you would like to say about your birthday? Because you did see you were excited and we didn't really expand on that feeling.

Yeah, I'm excited about it. and I just wanted everybody to know it's coming up on December 4th. So we'll talk about it in couch talks, which you heard last Thursday. I probably won't. Yes, we will. So now you're making me talk about my birthday a lot. This is backfiring. Well, I planned on talking about your birthday in that episode, but we just haven't recorded it yet.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, you just didn't know that. I ruined the surprise. Were you going to bring out a cake and everything? No. I have a half a loaf of banana bread. I could bring in. I just wanted to say, I didn't really want to talk about my birthday. I think I just wanted to say I'm feeling excited because currently I am feeling excited. That is my true emotion right now because my birthday is coming and I enjoy my birthday. Although I will say, starting to feel less excited than normal because turning 36 isn't like, woohoo. You know? Yeah, but 36 is 3 plus 6 is 9. And I don't know. It's just I was trying to do some.

Okay. Wait, what was the special number? Seven to sell my house? Wasn't it like? Oh, I think eight. Eight. Okay. Well, that's address numerology.

Oh, it's different time. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, I'm just excited. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about it. And what are you doing for your birthday? Because I am going to be sadly out of town. Yeah.

So my actual. birthday birthday i'm working usually i take the day off but i had to move my schedule around this week so i have to have to work i get to work on my birthday and then i think i'm just going to dinner with patrick but what we do is we don't pick our birthday dinner we plan for the other person's birthday dinner and we don't tell them what it is until we like show up there oh okay i like that yeah and then i'm really interested to see what he got me because it came in like a month ago and he's been really excited about it. So I don't know if it's like, it could be one of two things. It could be something really cool or it could be something he like found on an Instagram ad. So isn't he hiding it in the

garage or wasn't he tinkering with it or working on it or something? Because didn't he say at some point you thought he was like surprising he was something else? And he was like, no, no. You can go in there. That's your birthday present. No. He was, he spent like an hour. He went downstairs and wouldn't let me come downstairs. He was in the living room on his computer. And he was like on his computer for like an hour. And then I came downstairs. I was like, can I come down now? And he said, yes, but don't come over here. And it was like, hiding his computer screen. I'm like, what item that you're ordering from the internet takes to an hour? Maybe you ordered me tickets to something and like the tickets were going on. And then also he couldn't get into a corner of the room to where like you couldn't see

a screen. I guess not. It's you running a projector. But then it came in the mail. So it can't be like tickets to something because they wouldn't mail those. I don't know. Well, we're going to find out In a month. You already know when this is hearing. You already know. That's fun that like I know but I don't know. But like right now I do know. Like when people are hearing this, you already know.

Current me doesn't know, but then like future current me does. December 9th you knows. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll give you guys updated. He's got me a couple of things off of like Instagram ads that have been like really funny. So hopefully it's not that. I can't wait to find out.

And then I can't wait to celebrate you once I'm back. Well, you can just celebrate me now. Okay. Yay. Why don't have anything. You don't have to get me anything. What? Yeah.

No. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, I'm done talking about my birthday. Okay. Okay. Are you done talking about my birthday? Yes.

Okay. All right. So we're talking about the drama triangle. And the reason we're doing this is because it's the holidays. And when the holidays come, what comes with the holidays? Drama. Because you're around? Family.

Period. And just like in general, there's gatherings, there's stress. Yes. So the drama triangle is a type of unhealthy pattern of communication that all of us engage in. So I say that. I'm going to say that right now because we have a tendency to think high. I want to say this kind. I mean this very kindly, but like in general, most of us have a tendency to think a little bit more highly of our communication patterns.

and they probably really are. Yeah. We all do this. It is universal. So there's no shame in playing this game. I have literally been every character. I played all three roles. The thing with me is I know I can be all three.

It's just sometimes I don't know exactly in the moment when I'm doing it. Yeah. Like I may not have like I'll eventually have the awareness, hopefully, please. Or it may need to be brought to my attention and then I'll like, oh, shoot. But it's not. Because I know them, I think I am hopefully a little more aware, but I definitely know that I partake and I'm just not aware. Yeah. We all partake.

The lesson in this is how to notice that you're on it so then you can get off of it. Not to like not ever get on it. I will get on it again. You will do it again. Everybody will do it again. So there's that. Everybody does it. Now, before we talk about the Drumont Triangle itself, I wanted to touch on two things that we've talked about, but we haven't.

really named them in this way that can help you understand the drama triangle a little bit better. And the one is, the first one is fact versus story. So when I say fact versus story, I imagine you have some idea of what I'm talking about. Yeah. It's like what's the data or the facts and what's absolutely true and then what's the story that you've made up around it. Yeah. And so all of the data in our life can be put in two different categories, fact and story. So another way to look at it, that is the content, which is the facts, and the context, which is the stories we create around the facts. And most of what we, all of us, in general when we're talking about things, most of what we're talking about is the context. We're usually talking in story versus

just talking about the facts of our lives. And I want to give an example of this because it's easy to confuse facts and story. A lot of the things that we think are facts are really just stories that we have created to make us feel right about the other stories that we have. I feel like that. It's a little confusing. So I was listening to this podcast. I think her name. I don't know what the guest name is, but the host was Elise Loan. Have you heard of her? She's an author and she's also, she gives me Brune Brown vibes. She is very smart. And she's an author and writes books about just thought and her own theories and stuff. But she also is a student of work too.

So she did this podcast with, I really want to say this woman's name is Courtney Smith. It is. Really? I just Googled it. Oh, wow. Yes. Okay. And her podcast is called like pulling the thread?

Yes. Okay. Her voice is also really nice to listen to. So if you just like need a soothing voice, which Brunei Brown's voice is soothing too. Very. I don't know why I brought them up. Oh. I was listening to them talk.

They talked about this too in an episode of her podcast. And Courtney Smith said that usually there's only two facts really to anything we're talking about. And then like the rest we just kind of make up because facts are pretty simple. So I'm going to give an example of what facts versus story could look like. And also pay attention to like, I'm going to give a fact and then I'm just going to give stories that could be there. I want to show that like our stories could be really helpful and motivating and encouraging and our stories can be very drama filled and fear based and based on which one we go with can totally change the trajectory of something with the same exact facts. And I'm going to ask you maybe to give an example of this after you hear me do this. Okay.

So listen to what I'm saying but also think at the same time. Got it. Okay. So a fact right now for me, I have struggled to get pregnant, period. That's the fact. I have not been able to get pregnant on my own, fact, period. The stories I could create about that, and maybe some of these I have created, could be I'm never going to be a mom, my body doesn't work properly,

I'm being punished for something that I've done, God doesn't love me, my marriage is going to suffer, I'm going to have extra conflict in my marriage. I'm going to be too old to be a mom. Or I could say things like God is waiting for the perfect timing for me to have a kid. Or this is creating so much space for me to be vulnerable and connect with my husband. This is going to strengthen my marriage because of the things we're going through. I'm going to learn so much about my body and understand more about the reproductive system than I ever thought I would. So do you see those two? And I could, depending on where I am, because our stories also help us make sense of the world. So we usually have a level of story that we go with. I'm getting ahead of myself. There's two ways we can go with stories. We can go above the line, below the line. Have you heard this? Okay. Yay. So above the line are stories that are very empowering, right? They're motivating. They're helpful.

they allow us to be an active participant in our life versus like life happening to us. And then below the line is when I am understanding things through a lens that like the life is happening to me, very fear based. And they get you kind of stuck. So based on if I'm above the line and below the line is going to shape how I then proceed. Right. And most of the time, most of the time, again, this is like taking shame out of it. We are wired to go below the line. We're wired to think fear-based. And I think that's more of like think about how we were created, right?

We had to be aware of our surroundings and what was going on so in order we could protect ourselves. It's that same idea that like fear helps us protect ourselves. Therefore, we're easy to go there. But when we go fear-based, we end up cutting ourselves off from any other need. outside of keeping myself safe. So learning, exploring, play, connection, all of that doesn't get met. I'm just making sure I'm protected. So I think if I go back to those stories, like the ones that I said first that were

examples of being below the line, those would protect me from probably feeling my real feelings, right? So like if God doesn't want me to be a mother, it's like, okay, well then I just accept that and like figure something else out so you can't like sit in the sadness that this is happening right or this is going to create conflict and struggle in your marriage doesn't allow me to actually see that this conflict in our marriage is creating all these opportunities for us too so as I was saying that did you have you thought of like a fact a win is a win a win a win I don't care which I'm saying yep that's me cliver taylor the fourth you might have seen the skis

hits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment, and the next we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast. It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger.

So, if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation.

There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships. I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're watching the latest season of the Real Housewives of Atlanta, you already know there's a lot to break down. Orsha accusing Kelly of sleeping with a merry man. They holding Kay Michelle back from fighting Drew. Pinky has financial issues.

I like the bougie style of Housewives show. I think it looks like it's going to be interesting. On the podcast, Reality with the King, I, Carlos King, recap the biggest moments from your favorite reality shows, including the Real Housewives franchise, the drama, the alliances, and the team everybody's talking about. As an executive producer in reality television, I'm not just watching it.

I understand the game. As somebody who creates shows, I'll even say this. At the end of the day, when people are at home, they want entertainment. To hear this and more, listen to Reality with the King on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. On a recent episode of the podcast Money and Wealth with John Hobriant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if ever. Everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here. We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts.

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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. What's up? I'm Miles Turner. And I'm Brianna Stewart. And our podcast, Game Recognized Game, has never been done before. Two active players giving you a real look at our lives and what we actually think on and off the board. Nothing's off-liaments. We talk trade requests.

What's the vibe of that when it's like your star player is like, well, I want to leave. And then actually now I'm going to stick. We talk tanking. I mean, honestly, like, I might get in trouble for this answer, but I think it's like definitely happening in the WBA. And yeah, we talk about our mistakes too. They pulled me to the side and was like, hey, man, we got a call last night, man, you can't be rolling around the city like this tonight before games,

no, you know, doing this, doing whatever. And of course, family stories. They'll be like, Mommy, why did you miss that? Mommy, do you play basketball? Check out Game Recognized game with Stuy and Miles on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Have you thought of, like a fact? Well, something that I've been thinking about recently, and I don't know if it's ever since my boyfriend said to me, after I was sharing with him some overwhelm that I was having, and I think it's because I know our relationship.

is progressing and I have some fear around, well, I didn't get it right the first time, you know, my first marriage. Even though it's not that it was wrong, though, it was a very long marriage. And we had struggles getting pregnant, but we ended up adopting. So that ended up being a beautiful thing that happened from that relationship. And we have a good co-parenting relationship now. But I think as my current relationship progresses, I am feeling a lot of overwhelm of like, oh my gosh, what are we doing? And I need to slow down. Or I have some fear that's popping up. And he said to me, like, you have somebody right here that cares for you and loves you. And once your kids are doing what, like he just was going through all these things. And I was kind of in a negative mode. But he didn't

really know what was deep down inside of me. And so I shared that as a little preface to the, I am divorced, period. That's a fact. That's a fact. And that's something I never thought I would be, ever. And from that, like, some of the things are like, yeah, am I now worthy of another relationship? Like, yeah, because I wasn't a good wife the first time, you know. That's a story, that's a story. Yeah. I wasn't a good wife. Yeah.

And how could we have adopted these kids and then split up? So now we've ruined their lives. Story. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, when my dad left at nine, he ruined my life. I'm just kidding. Which is a, that's also a story. It's also a story, yes, because kids are resilient, adults are resilient.

I have seen it firsthand and now Ben and I co-parenting in the healthiest way possible for us is showing that we're doing the best by our kids. And I think this is better for them than maybe Ben and I staying together for them because then that's above the line. That's a story above the line. That's above the line. And there's been a lot of healing that has been able to take place because of the separation of the divorce. So there is above the line stuff that has happened. But there are below the line stuff of like, well, woe is me or why this have to happen to me instead of. for me. And I even think of like a silly example cryocats in here running the cameras, but we were driving to the Tennessee game in Knoxville. And I was trying to get there early

because we were meeting my boyfriend and he was tailgating at some friends and he wanted me to meet some people. And it's where he went to law school and his wife that passed away from cancer. She went to her undergrad there. So he was with some of her friends. And I really wanted to get there early to see all these people. And we just wasn't going to. happen. Like we left later and then we missed an exit and it set us back another 12 minutes. And I was like, oh, well, now we're really not going to make it. And I was feeling bummed. And then Kat was like, she went and did the little you turn to turn around and add the 12 minutes. And she's like, well, I'm just going to look at it as like that protected us from something. Like if we had stayed on that path,

like who knows, maybe we, this now took us out of harm's way, which that's just a way of looking at it above the line. Like, who knows? Do we know that that is really what happened? No. but it does help give you a different perspective that then allows you to take a deep breath and then just proceed and be in the moment instead of like oh why does this happen to me why do always miss the exits and i'm not paying attention to the map and then you spiral so that that's a very tiny example that'll that's a great example actually because it will make sense as we talk about the drama triangle because that is an example of you be feeling playing this victim role of on the drama triangle. Yeah. And so I give all of this pre-context because we didn't even have to talk about all that

to talk about the drama triangle, but I think it is very helpful. And when I heard them talk about it on that podcast, it gives a whole different way to think about what being on the drama triangle means because if you can understand the stories and you can understand that you are writing stories over and over and over again and you are creating all these stories, you can have so much more power in one, how you think, going to shape how you operate throughout the world. So if I can take ownership of these stories, I can either acknowledge like, yeah, I'm writing these stories and they're not so great and that's why I'm sitting here. Or I can acknowledge like, oh, I'm writing these stories. That means I can write them this way. And I don't have to sit here anymore. So either way, either when you choose,

at least you're owning it and choosing it. It gives us agency. So let's take those two ideas and then talk about how the drama triangle works. And this is actually really simple. It's a like sometimes can feel very complex, but this pattern of relationship and communication is very simple. It all stems from avoiding being direct and asking for your needs to be met, which, again, I'm just going to keep saying this over and over. This is normal.

This is normal. We live in a world that loves to be. to avoid any type of conflict and sometimes asking for our needs is conflict. And so even me like, I was being kind of funny, but me playing that role of victim earlier, but like Amy wouldn't let me talk about my birthday. Which is the story. Which is a story. Yes, it's a story.

It's me saying that. So I couldn't say, I really, because I didn't want to say, I really don't like this schedule anymore because I feel like we can't talk about things in real time. is there any way we could revisit that? Yeah. This is a low stakes example, but that's an example of me being vulnerable and asking for my needs. The reason why it's like that is such a simple ass, it's like no drama. Yeah. So it's like if you do that, yeah, you're not in the drama triangle. That's why it's the, it's the perfect name because when you avoid the direct line of communication and intentional dialogue like we've talked about before in healthy communication.

That's when the drama comes in. And while you, and while you, you're, and while you, you say it is very normal. I will also say it's so helpful. Oh yeah. It's so like once you see it, and it clicks with certain relationships where you understand where you, and you can dance, right? Like you'll probably get to that. But like once you see it, you almost can't unsee it, unless sometimes you're in it. Unless you really don't want to. And you want to avoid it. Like I said, sometimes I don't have awareness and then I need to be told. And I'm like, oh, shoot, yeah, you're right. but I'm glad I have the knowledge so that I can hopefully I'll remain in this space. Like I don't know.

I could go on some unhealthy path and not want the feedback. But like right now, I welcome that. Like if you as my friend were to say, hey me, hey, hey me, hey me, hey, Amy, I really feel like right now we're doing a little dance. And that's what even my kids therapist, my son had a therapist once and he always called Don't Do the Dance. he's inviting you to tango and you are just, you're like, okay, what time? I'll be there. Let's dance. Let's do it.

Turn the music up. And I would do the dance. And I remember too, like Ben and I, when we were working through it, like, we were so married and we were going through some stuff with our son. I would look at Ben and I'd be like, you're doing the dance. He, our shirts and friends, don't do the dance. You're like, I can see you're doing the dance. You're doing the dance.

Like, I'm over here. Well, I mean, I would do it too. But he would probably call me out. It's easier to see. It's easier to see it in your eyes. other people. So if Ben were here, he would say, oh, yeah, and there's definitely times I would look at Amy and be like, Amy, stop dancing. You're doing the dance. And once you start seeing the dance, you're like, that dance is not cool. But that's where sometimes if we're used to chaos,

we get a little bit bored, we're kind of like, I kind of feel like dancing. Which happens, which does happen. Happens to me. Guilty. Yeah, guilty. Done it. So as we explain these three roles, and I, I, I will preface this too. You can do this dance by yourself and you can just go around and do all these three things by yourself or you can triangulate somebody and be on this triangle with other people. So you can, as you're listening, you can contextualize this in both ways. There is a role in here that is the victim. And I feel like it is very important to always give the preface that this is different. There are times when people are victims of their circumstances, things have happened to them. There is a place in time where you are a victim that is not what we're talking about.

What we're talking about is something that's more closely tied to victim consciousness, which is playing the role of a victim when there is a healthy, easy way out of the situation you're in. So I just don't want to hear, I don't want anybody hear that we're victim blaming or shaming or anything like that because those are two separate things. Apples and oranges. And oranges, yes. I wish there almost was like a different word. word for it. So in the drama triangle.

So pattern of unhealthy communication, we get on this thing. We do this dance when we are avoiding or want to avoid asking for what our needs are, asking for our needs because of a fear around something usually tied to being vulnerable. And I'm going to give some alternate names too that I like a little better. So there's the victim, the rescuer, and the persecutor. The victim, if you're explaining this with families, a lot of times all, or if I'm explaining this with a client that is going to take this home and talk about it with like her kids or somebody younger, I like to give them the names, victim is the helpless baby, which I guess we did find

another name for it. Then there is the rescuer, which is the bossy helper. And then the persecutor is the blaming bully, which another word for persecutor also is just like the villain. like they are the villain in this story. So when you hear all of those, is there one that you're like, that one sounds nice or that one sounds like,

is there one that you're like, I don't want to do that? Or is there one that you're more? I mean, now earlier we brought up the rescuer and I was like, I don't know that I do that one a lot. And you were like, hmm. And I was like, well, shoot, maybe I do. Which feel free.

You have full permission to say whatever you want to say about me. I, like with the mics on. I wish I was more, I think it'd be better to be the rescuer out of any of those. Like I would rather show up as the rescuer. Like, yes, bossy helper sounds leh, but I'd rather be the bossy helper than the whiny, helpless baby. You're saying helpless baby, but I don't know that I always say helpless. Though they're not, yeah.

Because they're whiny. Oh, okay. Yeah, you're like, you're whiny baby. And then, because I've been the whiny baby with a entangled in a terrible relationship with a bossy helper. And I was a whiny baby. And then when, when I tried to set a boundary about it, they turned me into the persecutor. Yeah. I was so into the drama triangle at the time that I could see it clear as day.

I saw it happening. It was unfolding before my eyes. And I remember telling my therapist, I was like, you're not going to believe it. You're going to believe it. I know for a fact that I stayed healthy in my communication and I stayed on my side of the street. And the response I got back, which, you know, the response I got back was had flipped me. They immediately went. And that's why I know you can dance in the triangle.

It's like they immediately went from helper or rescuer to now they're the victim, which I was the victim before. I didn't want to be, but I was choosing to stay there. Like, that was our thing. You didn't want to be, but also there is what we called secondary gains. So a lot of times when I'm talking to somebody and they're talking about a pattern of behavior that they continue to do and they're like, I don't want to do this anymore. And I say, okay, well, what do you get out of it? They're like, I don't get anything.

And then I have to ask again, okay, but like if you did get something, what would it be? Because we don't continuously do something over and over and over again unless there's something that we get. Oh, I for sure had gains from it 100%. and also I was avoiding speaking for what I really, yeah, like I didn't have to really speak up. And I can also see in this relationship, like they would have benefited by speaking up for what they needed too. Like they were avoiding as well.

And I hate that for them. We were both doing it. Well, and I'm glad that you're saying all that because the reason I kind of like using the other names is because all of these roles are in their own right victim. Nobody's actually getting their needs met here. Nobody is. We're getting a version of our needs met. We're getting that secondary gain. So like I might not get, if my need is to talk about my birthday. I'm struggling to come with an example right here. But my need is to like talk about my birthday. By me playing the victim role, I get to gain the idea that like I'm not doing anything wrong and it's like all your fault and by you you didn't do this but let's say that

you were like nobody cares about your birthday then like you don't like you end up having like the blame is not on you either you're like my hands are clean if nobody wants to hear about it it's not me you know what I mean and like that's kind of me right I would get my feelings hurt and then I could blame you for being mean to me and then we would have a whole other issue that has nothing to do with me talking about my birthday right So let's talk about each role individually and then we'll come back. And I have a really good example I thought of while I was watching a Netflix Christmas movie today. So we're going to come back to that.

Okay. Merry X-Miss. Have you watched it? I've watched it. Yeah. Okay. So then you're going to know. Okay.

Actually, we might, I'm going to quiz you. I'm going to ask you to place the roles. This is the one with Alicia Silverstone? Yes. Which like Blastro from the past. All right. And Melissa Joan Hart. Yes.

Crazy. She is her sister. Or is her sister in the movie. Oh, that was her. sister? I thought so. Well, you might not want to quiz me because was I paying attention. No, no, no. I'm pretty sure that was her sister. I might not have. Doesn't matter. I was doing multiple things. Anyway, okay, so let's talk about the persecutor first. So the persecutor is, I think my experience is like they get like the bad rep in this triangle. Like they're like the mean one. They're the ones that are causing the problem,

essentially, but they're also saying, this is not me, this is you. So if I'm the persecutor, I'm blaming you for whatever the issue is. But if you're not the persecutor, you're then blaming me. We're all trying to shift blame. So then nobody has to do anything. So if I'm blaming you and you're blaming me, then guess what? Nothing's getting done. Nothing. I don't have to change and you don't have to change. And I think that also is a reason why a lot of times we have the same kind of arguments over and over and over again because if we do not realize that we are stuck in a cycle of story, we don't realize that we have agency to shift that. And I'm not just going to like, like, okay, never mind, my story is not real. If I don't realize that I'm in this cycle,

does that make sense? Yeah, but that's why I think talking about the triangle is so helpful. Because I was in the cycle for years, but didn't know this concept. Existed. Existed. So you're thinking my story, my story, my story is true. I just thought, I just thought, well, this is just how it is. Like, this is just their relationship and this is our cycle and this is what we do. And I don't know how to stop it. But then once you realize where you each are and the roles that are being played, then you do have the ability to stop it.

And sometimes it might be too far gone to where it's like. Yeah. But that's a different conversation. Yeah. It's just interesting. Like, so I'm excited to hear more about what you have to say about it. Because I haven't, I guess I probably first learned about it three or four years ago. I think you've known about it for longer. No. Oh. No, I learned about it in my couples therapy with Ben. Maybe I just, that feels so long ago. And it was when we were separated. We were not still together. So it was 2021. A win is a win. A win. A win is a win. I don't care what you're saying.

Yep. That's me. me, Clifford Taylor the fourth. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated.

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Hey. And we have been. joined at the hips since high school. Absolutely. Now a redacted amount of years later, we're still joined at the hip. Just a little bit bigger hips, wider. This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey with all the snacks and drink.

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You're lucky I'm not a killer. I love this team and I'm really trying to be a figure in their lives that they can rely on. Oh. Listen to soccer moms on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So the persecutor, they're like the bad cop, essentially. They're angry. They're very blammy. It's all your fault.

The persecutor also, like, if there's ever any, like, gossip or, like, trash talking or bad talking. I mean, gossip in the sense of, like, in an ill-intentioned way, that's a persecutor role. Like, that's some of you're being a persecutor if you're doing that. So if you are with your, if there is an argument within your friend group and you're off gossiping and talking about how Susie Q did X, Y, Z, and can you believe it, you're being a persecutor. You are blaming another person for an issue or conflict that you have versus going and speaking your needs and talking that out. So I mentioned earlier, since you're talking about being the actual persecutor, that I was

then put into the persecutor role when I set a boundary, but I wasn't actually the persecutor. Does that make sense? Can you like talk about that? Because I have not, I don't know that I've ever talked that through like how I, I, I wasn't, but I was made to be with the response that I got and the, the story that was now being told from their perspective, laid me out as a persecutor. And it's just because I shifted the- Well, because you're fighting over being the victim. I messed with the game. So that person doesn't want to be the persecutor. so they're making you the persecutor. But then you, by saying they made me the persecutor, is then making that person the persecutor because you guys are both fighting to be the victim, even though you wouldn't actually admit that in the moment. To be clear, I never said to, I never responded in a way.

I'm just sharing that with you. I never said, you're making me the persecutor. I know that. But in your head that's happening. Does that make sense? Yeah. And what the, and I'm explaining this. You have to think about this in two contexts.

you're on this triangle by yourself and you're just traveling around and then also you can be on this triangle with other people. Okay. So the persecutor is somebody who is never going to do anything to fix or solve the problem, but they are going to criticize and find a problem. It's not me. It's you. That's what they say. That's the persecutor.

Okay. Nobody wants to be that one for sure. That's the one that people are like, oh, I have that's what they're like. that never be me, no. We also, again, we do this to ourselves as well. So that's persecutor. Then we have the rescuer. Which you also usually have like a start gate position.

So there's usually a role that you gravitate towards. And then no matter what, once you're on this, you're going to do it all. So that's just to take some like, if you're listening to this and you're like, I don't want to be that way. Just take a deep breath and release the shame because if you do one of these, you do all of them. and all of us do them. So nobody's alone. One ticket to Drama Town, please. So you're saying like when we hop on the ride,

we have a place that we typically... Oh, start with. We have a station. We typically go to first. It's a start gate. It's like easy for me to get on in that role. I mean, mine's for sure victim. Okay.

I can hop on there real quick. I was going to say, I feel like you are, in my experience of you, which you can also, this can be different and different experiences, But like in my experience of you, I feel like it's, I've seen you easier to jump on in the rescuer. Well, that's apparent because you said that earlier about being like, really? Tell me more.

I just see you in that context. But also like maybe you were already on the triangle and I just see you in that rescuer position more. Does that make sense? I get on this triangle usually, well, now that I'm like revisiting this, I used to always say like, it's easy for me to get on as the rescuer. I think I honestly can get on as a persecutor pretty easily. No comment. I don't think, I don't, I think from stories that you tell me, I love to blame somebody.

I see that. Yeah. But not because I've experienced it from you. Okay. I love to blame somebody. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, you don't like being told what to do.

Yeah. Ever. Yeah. So it's like, can you believe this? So. Yeah. Yeah, but then you like come back around. You're rational.

Yeah, but I like to get on that train for a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, back to the rescuer. Mm-hmm. The rescuer plays like the good cop to the persecutor's bad cop. They give codependent vibes. Oh, that's what you thought that was me. Mm-hmm.

I didn't say that. I do sometimes give codependent vibes. And they end up playing like a martyr role. Oh, yeah, I've been a martyr too. Yeah. So they forego all of their needs to solve somebody else's. Needs. Is that, okay, so you're relating? This was more so in my marriage at the end of it. And I won't ever forget what one of my therapists said to me. Like I was like, I can't do that. Like I will just stay in this forever. And then she said to me, oh, you sweet martyr. And I remember I was pacing in my backyard at my other house. Like I remember exactly. And she has an accent. And she goes, oh, you sweet mata. And I was like, oh. You sweet mata. And I was like, oh. It almost just clicked.

It clicked. And I was like, and that's what I, either one of us would have been doing in that situation. I mean, been too. And this isn't just all specific to my marriage. There was a lot of things happening. But I realized like, oh, wow. Okay. Yeah.

I need to make an actual choice for myself, not just for somebody else. Which I was going to say, like there's a lot of guilt involved in the rescue. And you use that on yourself. Like I feel guilty for choosing myself. The problem is we cannot spend our lives fixing other people's problems. And a lot of times when we're doing this, that other person doesn't really want their problem to be fixed. Because if you give them a real solution, then that victim has to actually do something.

And we haven't gotten exactly to the victim. But the victim doesn't actually want to do anything. They want to play the victim. because if I am the victim, there's nothing I can do. Sorry. If you give them a solution, that's debunked. So they'll find an excuse. So then you'll hustle or then you'll become the persecutor because you're like,

I gave you a solution and this is your fault and you're here because of blah, blah, blah. So not that you would say it like that, but that's how you can switch really easy. And I get that. Like if I'm working really hard to help you in some way and you keep giving me an excuse, out of excuse after excuse after excuse, I'm going to get exhausted and frustrated and angry and resentful. And then I might lash out at you. And then I'm going to blame you for me feeling like this,

even though I could just be like, okay, you don't want my help. Bye. Bye. But that's really hard because of the stories we have around your responsibility, maybe even to this person or the situation or the world. So rescuer is a tough role. because you really feel like you are doing the right thing, but you're not.

You're not helping. And you're definitely not helping yourself. I love that she called you a sweet martyr. Oh, you sweet mata. And you're like, wait, what? Okay. It's interesting right when I thought back to that story, which I mean, I've told it before,

but that was a few years ago for sure. And I'm instantly transported to like talking on the phone, pacing in my backyard, that exact conversation with her. And there's not many times I can remember like exact. where I was and what I was doing when I had a specific conversation, you know. Well, and also like this is, because again, we're all fighting to be the victim at some regard. When you're in that space, you also can flip, you can flip to the persecutor, you also can flip to be the victim of like, I've tried everything and nothing works.

And then you become this helpless baby or the whiny baby, as you would say, when really there's a solution that you just don't want to take it. Okay. So then we have the victim. And when you hear that word, victim, again, victim consciousness and we're not talking about actual victims, what kind of comes to mind for you? Like what feelings do you get when you think about the victim? What things pop into your head? Does your body react?

Okay. Well, I can only speak to a personal experience where I feel like, because you have to understand. When I had the drama triangle revelation, victim mode was definitely where I was dancing a lot. So my brain keeps going to this example. So I'm just going to roll with it. I was definitely in a role. You were in a what? In a role.

Oh, yeah. It was part of the dynamic. So it was. Yes. Like it would be very laying it all out, like all the things that are going on, like sort of trauma dumping in a way. But taking up a lot of that space. but I thought that's what I needed to do for connection.

And then there would be like rescuing that would happen. And then that was that, you know, it's so much so like I wasn't able to show up for that person and really any other way, even when I kept trying. Like I would try or I would think I'd be trying, but that wasn't my role. So I don't even think they thought that's what I wanted. But deep down I did. And sometimes I would hang up the phone and I'd be like, why did I just talk about myself for? 20 minutes and all that was going on. Because there was a lot happening, but I just would, is that making sense of like,

that was the victim role for me of laying it all out of all the things? And then there was some swooping in to help fix the situation or make it better. And I don't know that I necessarily needed that. I wasn't looking, but it was just. But what were you looking for? Connection. So you named a story in there. Like in order to be connected to this person, I had to be this little baby bird who needed somebody to fix them or always, I'm making this stuff up, but like always had a problem that needed to be talked out. I have to do this in order to have connection in my life with this person. Like it wasn't fun for me. Like I am aware of it even now. You weren't enjoying it. I wasn't enjoying it either. Like it was very perplexing to me. So then it was also exhausting.

And I'm sure they were exhausted too and they weren't getting needs met. And so you're right. It's like if you have the awareness, then you can, we could have fixed them. it maybe a long time ago, but then it got to where we couldn't fix it. So yeah. So you're having this story around like in order to be connected to this person, I have to play this role. It doesn't feel very good. Mm-mm.

But you were still like the story that you created around like the facts of what were going on in your life was a below the line example. Mm-hmm. Versus just being able to own this or I've created this story. It doesn't have to be this way. What would happen if I said to this person? I'm feeling stuck. and this relationship's really important to me.

Therefore, I think I need X, Y, Z and named something. Who knows? We don't know what would have happened, but it would have given you an opportunity to get off of this triangle, to get out of this dance, where you, even if that relationship didn't end up being what you wanted it to be, you didn't have to keep playing that game anymore. So, yeah.

There's a lot I learned in my, that couples therapy, that just helped in a lot of areas in my life. Yeah. And so the victim is it's, I mean, they're all interesting roles because essentially we don't want to be any of them. But like the victim is the one that we all are like, I don't want to be that. But you really subconsciously really are wanting to be. You know, so you know the part of me that gets real defensive. Isn't that my victim mode? Yeah. So see. Well, it depends. The defensiveness can also be like persecutor. Like it's not my fault. It's your fault. Because it's this. I don't know that my defensiveness is. Well, your defenseiveness. Well, your defense. I think in general defensiveness could be different things. My defensiveness is like we use that dog water example too. Like I wasn't really saying like it's not my fault. But she was like, would you like some water for your dog? Now we're going back a few months.

People don't even know this story because that's a totally different episode. But a woman offered water to my dog. But I was embarrassed and thought she was like judging me for having my dog out on hot day. So I wouldn't accept the water. She walked away and I was with my boyfriend and I was just like, oh, she's probably like you idiot why'd you bring your dog and he's like she didn't say that she just offered you water like so i wasn't saying it's not your fault or it's not my fault it's your fault like it my defensiveness wasn't that i was just getting defensive of like that people i get defensive that

i'm being judged and nobody was judging me exactly yeah i think defensiveness can show up in different ways depending on yeah like how it's who you are and how it's coming up in that example defensiveness in general doesn't just mean this. But good callback. Shout out. Shout out to the lady who tried to give me the water. To this day, I will say, I should have taken the water. I'm sorry, Kara. Well, now you have learned. So don't get on this triangle with yourself. Give yourself grace. So these are all the roles. Okay. Do you have before? Hopefully we haven't confused anybody. Well, this is something that like is so simple that it's so confusing if that makes any sense at all. And it's confusing because we don't like when we think about this then we're doing the like dance and we're making

all these connections so if you like would write it out it would make perfect sense i did this then this happened then i did this then this happened and you would be able to see it very clearly and i'm i would say if you're just now taking this in and you realize it in a relationship like i don't know that right away i would go to the person and be like we're in a drama trial you're the persecutor and I'm the rescuer, you know, I'm the helper and you're mean. Or, you know, like, just taking, like, talking about it in a thoughtful way of like, hey, I just started thinking about, I listened to this podcast, I just started thinking about this.

And I'm just reflecting upon some of our latest interactions and like, what are, what's your experience with it? Because here's what I am. And I would, I feel like we might be dancing a little. And I don't, I want to see if you feel the same way. And that way it's inviting them into it and not that like you've listened to this podcast and come to all these conclusions and now you know. I'm going to name everything. Or if you are involved in therapy, like take this to your therapist and see like if like you said taking down the notes.

Like that's what I I had many, many, many sessions after my couples therapy with Ben with my personal therapist about my roles and how I was showing up. Yeah. And I tried to carefully talk through it before. Well, and you don't have to, because you're going to notice this pattern with people that you don't have intimate relationships with. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I don't, I'm so glad you said that. I'm so glad you said that because I made it like you should talk to people about it. But to clarify, there are so many people I am and have been in dances with and they don't know.

Right. So, yeah. They may know and maybe they're not saying anything. Yeah. But like I know that I know, but it's not worth a conversation. Well, there's ways to kind of handle this without having to have that conversation. Now, I will say, like, if you have a partner or a really close friend or you have a really close relationship with a boss or something like that, and it feels safe and natural to talk about

this thing, talk about it because I think there's so much you can learn from having two people communicating about it. And there are ways that you can take, is it all of this drama triangle? really the purpose of it is to show you that you can take ownership of your own life and you can ask for your needs to be met. Because once you get, I don't know if I said this, but the reason a lot of people are fighting to be the victim is because the victim is the one that gets their needs met without asking for them to be met. A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep, that's me, Clever Taylor the 4th. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from

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We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught. Financial education is not always about, like, I'm going to get rich. That's great. It's about creating an atmosphere for you to be able to take care of yourself and leave a strong financial legacy for your family. If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

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I'm not worried about McCann. My only concern is what happens in the back. The biggest decisions. If you're going to look at stats and numbers, he has no shot at making this World Cup team. And the truth about the U.S. national team. It wouldn't be a huge surprise if our team ends up in the quarterfinals or potentially a great run into the semifinals.

The World Cup is almost here. Experience it all with us. Listen, Inside American Soccer with Tom Bogart and Tabramos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast. Yes. The reason a lot of people are fighting to be the victim is because the victim is the one that gets their needs met without asking for them to be met. So like, duh, I want to be that. Again, these all have versions of victimness in them.

Question. Can the rescuer be getting certain needs met if they have a, I want to be involved and fix everything mentality? Yes, but they can. And also, remember, that rescuer is always going to end up as the victim. no matter, I don't know if I said this either, no matter what you start as, you're going to end up as the victim if you don't get off of this triangle. Okay. At some point.

Now, that will shift again, but like you're going to do that. But yeah, I think when you're talking about rescuing and somebody being like a martyr, there is something, that's the secondary gang we get. Mm-hmm. Right. So. Or this like fulfillment. I'm thinking of people that love, like if you're a two, like a helper.

But remember, when you're the rescuer and you're helping the victim, the victim doesn't actually want help. Right. So the fulfillment doesn't usually come. And that's why you then move rules. And then you get exhausted. And then you start giving the silent treatment. Yeah. So are you speaking from that?

That's what happened to me. I also probably do that too. I love a good silent treatment. So I was, well, I was talking about you. So there's a couple ways to get off of this triangle. And is there, before I go into that, oh, no, before I go into that, let's talk about Mary X-Mess. That's the name of the movie, right? Mary X-Mess.

Yeah. Okay. Because she's having Christmas with her X. Okay. So, spoiler alert. If you're waiting to watch this movie that you're going to have no idea how it ends, because it's very different than every other Christmas holiday movie, then skip forward 60 seconds. No.

That was sarcasm, too. Also, it's been out for a few weeks on Netflix, so. That was brand new. I also thought maybe it was like an older movie. No, it was one of the first releases, so maybe two weeks. Oh, well, by the time this airs, three. If you haven't watched it yet, we can't do anything about that. So thinking about that movie, do you have any idea of why I would bring that up?

Think about the two main characters, the husband and the ex-husband, X-Y. Well, you learn at some point that she put off some of her dreams and that she wanted to go to Boston or something. And was that, like she seemed like a rescuer. Yes. So it's this couple. There's a doctor. And then she was, I think, architect or something in that realm. There's she had these big dreams to have this big career.

So she moved with her husband to the small town. She gave up her dreams to build a life with this man. And then he ended up being kind of addicted to his job and would miss out a lot of stuff. So they end up getting divorced. And then you find throughout the movie that like neither of them really wanted to get divorced. They both were still in love with each other. But she was resentful of him because she didn't speak what she really needed.

And he was resentful of her because she was doing things that bothered him. But he never really shared any of that. and actually I can't spoil this movie because I'm only halfway through. So you don't even know for sure how it is. I don't know what happens, but I have a feeling that I know what happens. And that's a perfect example of if she would have actually said, hey, I need you to like be home more and I want to go back to work. And is there a way we can figure this out? And da, da, da, da, who knows?

They could have stayed together in the end. And maybe that they, maybe they ended up doing that. And if he would have said, hey, there's a couple of things that you do out. home that make me not want to come home and that's why I'm working more. She could have taken a look in the mirror and looked at what she was doing and say, oh, I can make some concessions here so we can both get our needs met. But they never had that conversation. So they just got divorced. And then they were resentful of each other. And that's a perfect. And she blamed him and he blamed her. And really, they were both doing things. Have you watched all her fault on Peacock? No, I haven't

because I don't have Peacock. I've started it. And this isn't going to be spoiling anything. I'm not even going to tell you which couple I'm talking about, but I just watched a scene where a husband, and there's multiple husbands in the show, she works and he works. When she is at home and with the kids and, you know, doing laundry and cooking, taking care of the kids, she's always on the clock. Whenever she's out doing something and he's home with the kids, he's like, when are, when are you back? Like, when am I done? And I just, I was just thinking of relationships and dynamic and how awful that would be with someone. And I was like, you know, This is reality for some people that the wife feels like she's always on.

Like she never, when she's home with the kid, she doesn't call the husband and say, when am I off so I can go do something else? And it was interesting because. Yeah. And is there, is she playing that role of the rescuer? And she's taking care of everything? Well, she definitely paused and was like, took a deep breath. And I didn't really know where she was going to go with it.

And you could tell she just didn't want the conversation or confrontation at the time. and she was like, you know what? You're right. He's like, well, you knew when you married me that I have to have my me time and that I have to go do my things and that I'm better when I've got, you know, time with my friends and this and that. And so she took a deep breath and she was like, you're right. I should have told you that I had this going on. I'll be home as soon as I can. And, you know, marriage is work and we will get through this. And then she hung up and I'm like, Dakota Fanning. Oh, is that? Is that her? She's in that? I just said whose role it was. But that's not giving anything away.

You're not giving anything away at all. I just said I wasn't going to say which couple it was. But I'm not giving anything away. It has nothing to do with anything. They could delete that scene and the show would be fine. We believe you. Thank you. I didn't know she was in it.

I knew it was the girl from Succession. Yeah. Shiv. I never watched that show. I couldn't get into it. What? I love Succession. I could not get into it.

I watched three episodes and I was like, this is boring snooze. I know I'm an outlier. Okay. But I spoke my name. needs to Patrick and I said, I can't do another one. Okay. And he watched it on his own. Okay, so how to get off of this triangle. So I'm going to give you options here. But my first option is four parts. Notice that you're on it. This is when you're on it with somebody else. Notice that you're on it. Number one, hardest part. You might need some feedback or after you kind of, if you are re-evaluating

kind of your behaviors, you can, you know, draw some diagrams and figure that out. Two, you need to lower your expectations for other people. When I say that, what comes up? You kind of made a face where you like, dang it. Or that makes sense. I didn't make a face about anything. Really, I didn't think. Oh, yeah.

Like, I'm like, okay, check, lower expectations. Well, because most people when they hear that, they're like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to lower my expectations for people. I want people to rise to the occasion. Oh, no, no. I think that I've plenty of practice of like sometimes just not having. Oh. And you're like I've done it.

Quite a few times. Yeah. Like I think expectations are future resentment at times. So it's not that I don't have standards for things in life or expectations for certain things. But then it's maybe it's my co-parenting. Like no, I think we have to. Ben and I started having tons of expectations in certain ways. Like that's where we had a little mantra of like, okay, expectations are future resentment.

So instead of just expecting or assuming, like, we're going to ask and we're going to talk about it. And also, we have to realize that we are not everybody else. And so the things that make sense in our head and the things that, like, seem best case scenario in our head that work in our head aren't the things that work in everybody else's heads because of the stories that we have versus the stories other people have. So lowering expectations isn't like, okay, go marry somebody you hate. Like, that's not what we're talking about. the point of this is when I can lower expectations and not expect this for people to fall in line with how I want them to act all the time, I then can start to appreciate the things about them that I couldn't see before because I was so resentful. So if I know somebody is really bad, I'm going to use me as an example, I'm really bad at remembering your birthday, the date.

I know the month and I always end up doing something. something, but I can't seem to get that date right. 17th, 19. It's March 18th. Oh, my God. And to be clear, Kat's birthday is December 4th. Okay. But that has come and gone. Okay. I'm not good. It is not December 9th. I'm not good at remembering dates and that's okay. And I don't hold, I don't have an expectation of you to. I know where you stand and that you care about me and that you celebrate me. Like that's not also too birthdays have been hard for me.

I have Shannon, I have a calendar. Like there's things in the last five years that I have implemented in my life that help me. But before that, before calendar and then like have, and even when it comes to the calendar,

like having her like my ADD to sit there and enter everybody's birthday reoccurring year after year. Like that's something that I will give Shannon credit for in that. I needed to help organizing my life because of my, we both have ADHD. Maybe that's why I can empathize with you and I give grace because I have been that person and it feels horrible forgetting. Yeah.

Horrible. And I have been on the receiving end of no grace with it at all, like just anger, disappointment. Valid. Valid. But I know my heart and I'm like, gosh, shoot, I really do care about this person. I can't believe that that slipped my mind. and it's probably why I don't take it out on you.

Like, I get it. I'm not going to get wrapped up around that. You're not going to make me a persecutor or a villain. No. You're not getting on the triangle with me. No. Another example that people might relate a little bit more to is like love languages. So if you're in a relationship or like somebody in your family, they have a different love

language than you. Like if somebody is really bad with words, but they are a good gift giver, if you don't lower your expectations, you're like, well, I'm an affirmation person and you have to tell me, X, Y, Z, you will get on this triangle every single time you talk to them because you won't be able to receive their love. But if I can lower expectations in the sense, okay, I'm going to meet you with where you are, and this is how you show affection and love is gift giving, I can receive that. And I can actually appreciate so many things about you now that I'm not blinded by all this resentment. That might fit a little bit. Yeah, that helps. Okay. So you have notice that you're on it.

You're lowering your expectations. Then you're creating boundaries. So, at the same time where like I am learning my expectations and able to see all of this stuff I also might want to protect myself so I need to create and these are internal boundaries you don't have to tell the people that you have these boundaries so if I'm a words of affirmation person and I really need to hear I go to this person when I'm struggling or I'm sad or I need reassurance or I just need to be validated but they don't know how to do that I need to create an internal boundary for myself. This is not who I go to for that. I might go to them for celebration in other areas, or I might go to them if I need help picking out a gift for somebody or something like that.

There are other things that I can do and go to them and I can see that more clearly now that I'm not blinded by this resentment over here, but I have to be smart. It's that whole idea of don't go to the hardware store looking for a loaf of bread. If this person does not have bread, right, I can't keep asking them for it because then that's my heart. fault. So I need to create a boundary. And when I'm hungry and I want a loaf of bread, I can't walk into the hardware store. You got to go to the grocery store. I got to go to the grocery store. And that grocery store might be a different person. And because of all of that, because that's a lot of work, noticing you're on it and like acknowledging our shortcomings, lowering expectations and creating

boundaries is a lot of work. I say it really simply. That's a lot of work. Because that's a lot of work, the fourth thing is self-care. Really simple. Just like be kind to yourself. give yourself grace, soothe yourself in some way. I can say this to you really simply, but the act of lowering expectations and cutting myself off from going to somebody and asking for something that I've really wanted my whole life,

that's hard work emotionally. And that's going to take a toll on us, so I need to then care for myself. Yeah. That's if you're on this triangle with somebody else. If you're on the triangle with yourself, it's a little bit more simple and the solution is really to notice you're on it and to reevaluate the stories we're making out of the context and look for some solutions that might be above

the line which is very similar to that question that we come back to very often what does this make possible or what big thing is this preparing me for those are those two questions are above the line questions that can help us reframe a fact what what what what what general is above the life what of what versus why yeah yeah yes yes what versus why it's like the you know I used the example of cat saying that when we missed the exit and she's like this is keeping us from an accident there's the burnt toast is it called the burnt toast theory or the burnt toast I don't know you're teaching me something well I don't know it just popped into my head what do you know it well I feel like maybe we'll end on this note I feel like maybe I feel like maybe I feel like maybe

it's something like you burnt your toast. And it's just workshopping this right now. And it delayed your morning. You know, but like not why did I burn my toast? But more of like what is this protecting me from? Like my burnt, the burnt toast. Is there a thing? It's keeping me late.

So then maybe I miss. I don't get in a wreck or something like that. Like it's the burnt. I thought it was a whole thing. Sorry, I thought you might know what it is. because literally just like burnt toast just pop into my head. Isn't that weird? Let me look it up. Burnt toast theory. Burnt toast theory. Let me see if it's like actually a thing. It's probably not. Brain, I'm going to be so mad at you. The burnt toast theory is a psychological coping mechanism that suggests minor inconveniences like burning your toast may prevent larger misfortunes.

My brain did not do me dirty. Yeah, you knew it. I got there. Okay. Thank you, Brain. You are. are wonderful but like the whole time you're talking all of a sudden i was picturing my toaster and burnt toast like i don't and then i was like i think there's a burnt toast theory and then i just said it without really knowing you're hoping that i could pick that up and you'd be like oh yes let me tell you about the burnt toast theory maybe i'm also thinking about it because you're like can't get a loaf of bread at the hardware store did i say it like that no but i kind of like it i kind of like that yeah i think that's you know yeah well that's the drama triangle or the Cartman triangle, as some people call it. And hopefully it's helpful, especially around this time of

year, and it can keep your relationship safe and healthy and get your needs met. All right, Kat. I hope you had a great birthday. Hope you had the birthday he needed to have. Thanks. Right? Okay. And we hope you all have the day. You need to have. Bye. Bye. A win is a win. A win. A win is a win. I don't care what I'm saying. Yep. That's me. Clifford Taylor the fourth. You might have seen the skits, my basketball and college football journey, or my career in sports media. Well, now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show. This is a place for raw, unfilled conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it.

Listen to The Clifford Show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok. On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth with John Ho Bryant, I sit down with Tiffany the budgetista Aliche to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money. What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here? We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts. Too many of us were never, ever taught.

If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation, is for you to hear more. Listen to Money and Wealth with John Hope Bryant from the Black Effect Network on the I'd Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Anna Navarro, and on my new podcast, Bleep with Anna Navarro.

I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world. Because I know deep down inside right now, we are all cursing and asking what the bleep is going on. Every week I'm, breaking down the biggest issues happening in our communities and around the world.

I'm talking to people like Julie K. Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018. The Justice Department threw. We counted four presidential administrations failed these victims. Listen to Bleep with Anna Navarro on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Ernest, what's up? Look, money is something we all deal with, but financial literacy is what helps turn income into real wealth. On each episode of the podcast, Earn Your Leisure, we break down the conversations you need to understand money, investing, and entrepreneurship.

From stocks and real estate to credit, business, and generational wealth, our goal is simple. Make financial literacy accessible for everyone. Because when you understand the system, you can start to build within it. Open your free I-Hard Radio app. Search Earn Your Leisure and Listen Now. I'm Miles Turner. And I'm Brianna Stewart.

And our podcast, Game Recognized Game, has never been done before. Two active players giving you a real look at our lives and what we actually think, on and off the court. Nothing's off limits. We talk tanking. I might get in trouble for this answer, but I think it's like definitely happening in the WBA. We talk about our mistakes too. They pulled me to the side and was like, hey, man, we got a call last night, man. You can't be rolling around the city like this tonight before games.

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