The Bobby Bones Show - Gil Birmingham: The Journey to Chief Thomas Rainwater on Yellowstone

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

In this episode of The Official Yellowstone Podcast, host Bobby Bones sits down with Gil Birmingham, the talented actor behind Chief Thomas Rainwater, to discuss the multifaceted nature of his role on Yellowstone. Gil reflects on how he brings nuance to playing both a "good guy" and "bad guy" and shares fascinating insights into his diverse journey—from his early career as a petrochemical engineer to his unexpected path into acting. Listen as Gil opens up about his bodybuilding days, his experience with Taylor Sheridan’s films, and the deep connection he has to his character. Plus, Gil shares his love for music, life philosophies, and thoughts on the future of the entertainment industry. This is a conversation you won’t want to miss!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Episode 5 of the official Yellowstone podcast. I am your host, Bobby Bones. The first four episodes have gotten great feedback. Thank you so much. A lot of downloads. So thank you so much for that.

This has been crazy at how much you guys wanted this. And I think I've done an adequate job. So the fact that you guys are listening so much means you just, you love Yellowstone, which is completely understandable. This episode has Chief Thomas Rainwater, whose real name is Gil Birmingham, major character. And I just talked to him about how he's able to be like a bad guy and a good guy. And obviously he's very cerebral as an actor, so he doesn't really see it like I do watching

where I'm like, bad guy, good guy, bad guy, good guy. But Gil, like the actual person, has a crazy journey getting into his career as an actor. He was an engineer. Then he kind of got into acting and there's some bodybuilding in there. You're going to hear about all this. Gil has been in a few of Taylor Sheridan's movies. Heller Highwater, Wind River, has had a role in a bunch of other big time shows.

His character in Yellowstone, again, it's so awesome because he took you on the journey of, I like him, I don't like them. I don't like them. I don't trust him. So we were pumped to get him on the podcast. You can follow him on Instagram at Gil Birmingham. Here he is. Chief Thomas Rainwater, aka a real name, Gil Birmingham. Hey, Gil, I'd like to say this, that why I'm such a fan of your work is because through Yellowstone in general, and I've seen you and other things too, but you were able to both be a bad guy and a good guy.

And that, there is some range to that that I don't even understand. And as an actor, whenever you're a, we think you're a bad guy, right? Because we're like, oh, the Dutton's. Whenever you're bad, are you playing that at all different facial expressions? What's the difference in playing a bad guy and a good guy, even though it's the same person? Oh, I always find it interesting that people want to categorize the bad guy as Bay and the antithesis of the anti-heroes, for example, in Yellowstone is my approach to character development is always to come from the heart and from the intention of the agenda that character has. And when people come up and tell me, you make such a bad, such a great bad guy, I always reminded him that I haven't killed anybody in the show. So who's really the bad guy here?

It's the structure of the storyline, but I don't think any actor really to fully accept a character. You probably know this to some degree, and you're all experienced that as you're playing the character, you can't judge them for whatever it is that they are. They think they're right. They think they're justified for what they do. But my development of that character was always,

for the interest of my people, to save the land, and this was just an obstacle, the Dundon family, and which I was going to approach that. My theory about Chief was if you did his story from his perspective, he would have been the good guy, much like in the Avengers, you know, whenever you got the guy with the rings and he's, what's in it, Thanos? I think if you shot Thanos a story, he'd have been a good guy because he's trying to save the earth.

I think had you shot Chief Rainwater from his perspective, he would have been the good guy and the Dutton's would have been the bad guys. Again, like you said, it's all perspective. There was that transition during the show where we start to warm, because again, it's shot. from the Dutton's. So we're like, oh, this guy can be against the Dutton, so we're against him. But then you became like this wonderfully warm guy without really changing. I loved your character. When they told you what you were going to do for the show, how did they approach you

with the character? Oh, you're Taylor, the brilliant writer, the show creator. He approached me with Yellowstone back in 2016. I had no concept of what his storyline was. But we were filming Hell or High Water, and he told me, I got this character for this series that I've developed, that I cast you eyes. So I didn't know the nature of the depth of the character or what it is he had in mind,

but after Elder Highwater, I did Wind River, I was all on board for all things Taylor Sheridan. Whenever you are reading a script and you realize something big is happening with your character, something that is paramount to the storyline. Were you ever shocked while going through the Yellowstone script through all the seasons? I don't know that I was, maybe not so much enough.

And Thomas Rainwater's storyline outside of the, I think it was season three or four where we had Angela Blue Thunder trying to undermine his chairmanship. I wasn't expecting that. That's what great television is, is drama. I think a lot of the surprises really were in reference to the Dutton's because there were so much, so much more drama there, you know, in terms of people that were trying to take the land over. And the transition, as you were referenced, was really the understanding that Thomas Rainwater had more in calling with John Dutton than neither one of them maybe understood. And I think it was so much summed up in a line where we went the same things for different reasons.

And that was the preservation of the land. I think that was the highest integrity of character for both of those characters. Can you explain to me because you're a wildly intelligent guy, obviously to play the character that you play with the nuance that you play it, but then a petrochemical engineer, can you tell me what a petrochemical engineer did? That was back in the 80s, and I got directed to a format that my parents thought was going to be something I could do, make a decent living, and it was an engineering, and I just had an opportunity at the time. When you're young, you're just looking for something to support yourself. And that seemed like a good one at the time. It really didn't speak to me because I only did it for about five years. Most of my life has been windows or doors that were opened and I walked through them

and we'll see what happens here. It seems like you've had a wonderfully amazing Swiss Army knife of a life and career. You're so good at a lot of things. I was also reading about you like bodybuilding, being just extremely ripped up. So not only you're smart, good-looking guy, also crazy muscles. So what was the bodybuilding phase of your life? I think I've just, I had somewhat of a suppressed kind of upbringing. It was very isolated.

I had a very religious mother and a military father, and there was a lot of containment, and it just wasn't my spirit. I was more of an artist or a creative. I picked up the guitar at 10, and that's really what I thought I wanted to do with my life. I was a student musician. If I used to just train their goals gym, the mecca body building in Venice California, and I had saved up a little bit of money and I wanted to explore something different. It just fascinated me that you could take the human form and cheap it like a Greek statue.

So it seemed like a healthy lifestyle for one, and I was there with all these examples of people that were doing that. And I was intrigued by what you could do with the body. and it actually was the injury into my acting profession because I got scouted in the gym, did a couple of works on a music video, had a great time. My girlfriend at the time was an aspiring actress, and she suggested I started taking some classes,

and that's where it started. To do something in art, as I've learned through the years, it's ebbs and flows, really unsteady, also wildly rewarding. And for me, I have a massive insecurity complex. I always think I'm not good enough. To leave a job like an engineer to go into the world of the arts, the income is not steady.

Was that ever a concern for you because there wasn't stability? We all, and anybody in the arts has a level of insecurity of feeling like you're not enough. I guess that's one of the great challenges of propelling yourself to do something that you're definitely scared initially. but the excitement of the potential is more compelling. I guess I saved up my money from the engineering, and I knew I had some leeway there to be able to explore this other thing, and then it led to other work more along the lines of entertainment,

and understanding, I guess, accepting that notion. How committed are you to this, that you're willing to make all the sacrifices for who knows how long? It was a long time before I ever was able to support myself in my profession now. A good 10 years, 12 years, and learn to live very sparsely. I've always lived like I'm in a college dorm. So I didn't have big overhead expenses. What is your favorite book? I'd say the power of now.

Oh, I read it again recently for like second time. Yeah, I love it. Oh, yeah. That really was a pivotal, conscious stern around for me. And it's still, I've gone through it a couple of times and just the reminder of many of those things. Zachartoult talked about being present. And there's really nothing else that exists besides that. Yes.

That's it. That's the only thing that exists is right the second. I had such a struggle with that until I read it the first time and I had a good experience with it. But then when I read it the second time, it's almost like watching a great movie with a ton of nuance in it. In the second time, you catch a lot of the things. And when I read it the second time, that was exactly what I was going to say was the only thing we actually. we actually have is right now. It was a real transitional awareness for me that still I try to remind myself every day of.

What from your childhood did you bring into the character, if anything? Oddly enough, I had shared my life with Taylor to some extent, and then I read the script and the characters for purposes of protection, my parents didn't really let us know we were even native, you know, until I was like 14. And that's exactly the way Thomas Rainwater was presented that he didn't realize he was native until he was 18. He saw the adoption papers. That was amazing parallel for me. This is my life, you know. Taylor's so great at that. He's such an observing person and he really knows how to integrate either personal history, his own experiences. The nature of the way he observes the world and the climate that we're in,

socially, politically, environmentally, I thought that was pretty interesting. It seems to me that Taylor's very hands-on in a very positive way, just from the other folks from either this podcaster in other areas that I know that have worked with Taylor. Would you say that is accurate? And what is his approach like person to person? Is it different for every single person? I always see, known since 2016, and they've had me out at the ranch there and at their home several times. I don't really see him interacting any differently.

He might have more of a heated debate if he's talking to a production company or other producers. He's a very strong-willed individual and very straightforward shooting. I wish I could talk the way he does at least in the way that he puts it down on paper. I have an appreciation of understanding,

in my mind, the nature of what it takes to be where he is and knowing a bit of history about where he came from. He's really one of those racks of riches story, being an actor for 20 years himself. And it's such an inspiration to really see somebody that steps out and says, I'm going to try something. Maybe that's what I related to, from my engineering to my bodybuilding, to my acting,

and just taking the risk, and then finding out all the amazing kind of potential and talent you might with this latent there for the longest time, and now you're actualizing it. How far in advance would you guys get scripts? Up into this last season, which we didn't get any, scripts. We would get them probably a month before we started shooting. The last season was really odd because they were all redacted scripts. They were really keeping it undercover. So you would get the things you were in, but you wouldn't get the storyline in any of the other characters. That was fortunate for me because Thomas Rannwater didn't really have that many interactions

between any of the other characters with John Dutton. That was really a new experience for us, for a group of people to spend seven years together. For the first time, we're not going to know what everybody else is doing. At what point in the show did you start to get recognized as your character? Oh, it's interesting because it occurs in different regions, not so much in Southern California, but I've traveled to Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and I'll have these fan mixes that are approaching these areas that I wouldn't think.

I don't even know what the distribution of Yellowstone is globally, but I wouldn't think of them as being particularly familiar with them. the show. But oftentimes it's areas that are either as the industry in cattle, ranching, oil, those are the big demographics for the show. Not only enough, it seems to be growing, even though the show is completed itself. I don't know if people are catching up to it now, but yeah, it's been interesting. Now that the show is over and it's time for you to go and find your next job, there have been some pretty cool opportunities that come across that do you read through a bunch? Do you audition? How does that work now? Now, now that's the show,

that you're a known entity and you're really good. So is that helping now? It's a real roller coaster, I think, for anybody in the industry. You can feel like you're really hot, but you can be at a big show. And I reflect sometimes in what they call the Oscar curse. You would think your career is just going to take off, right? And time after time, you'll hear of ours that things were dead for like a couple of years. For me personally, I know the industry is changing.

I know there's a big pullback. in general across the board, there's all these AI concerns, production companies are merging and the financials are being pulled back, so not as many productions are being done. I just have to trust, have patience and trust that something will pop up.

They really are attracted to me. Nothing in particular that I've read to you at this point has really made me feel like, yeah, I really want to do that. Are you good at reading a script and knowing if something is great and grabs you? No.

Remember reading Hell or Highwater, and I was going, Oh, yeah. This is a fairly good script. Working with Jeff Fridges? Now, I've been Chris Fine, Ben Fine. Okay. I don't know where this movie's going to go. I'm sitting there at the Oscars.

So you played Ben in Heller High Water. What was that experience like? I have 100 questions, so I just want to ask a very vague one. Give me like a memory from hell or high water that I think was cool. I think, well, there's several, one that sticks out to me is that Jeff and I had about two weeks. I mean, we shot that show in like five weeks. There was a really small window. And when I learned about all the machinations behind the scenes, it just amazes me that it got made.

Originally, it got turned down from a bunch of people. And then appears she came on and said, the script right now is got a, it's got a, stank to it right now, stick it off the market, and then we'll reintroduce it, and the way had a producer that stepped in and financed it. But to develop a relationship, we had, like, good friends, had been working together for 20 years, and I'd developed that in a couple of weeks. It was the music, because Jeff is a musician, I'm a musician, and it was when we would jam together. There was really a connection, which was just perfect. And just our improv stuff, there was a bit of improv between us. It still tickles very.

just watched it. I guess it just got put on Showtime or HBO or something. And I'll just get drawn into it, not just for the experience of the memory, but just how really great a script that was and how great everybody in it was. Let's talk music for a second. Mount Rushmore, a favorite artist. Give me your four favorite. It's going to be impossible because somebody that knows music, loves music, and plays music. It is an impossible question, but I'm putting it on you here for your four favorite artists of all time. Oh, I think maybe number one would have to be this rage and idiots. No, you don't want to do it worst.

You want to take a power washer to that fate. Out of there. Out of there. You cancel, cancel, cancel. Cancel, yes. Listen, I was a guitar player. You know, it was Jimmy Hendrickson affected me. I was so focused on it.

And I have some regret to that because I wasn't the ponder of lyrics and the power of the language. Was Jimmy Hendrix, C.V. Ray Vaughn. Eric Clapton, Joseph Rihanna, Eric Johnson, all the guitar heroes, Jeff Beck, Jimmy Page. Such a geek of rock, classic rock guitar. There is a Stevie Ray Vaughan clip, one of my favorite ever, where he's playing Austin City Limits, and his guitar string breaks. And he's able to change his string while he's still playing this solo. That to me is why I love Stevie Ray Vaughn, because he was so natural with his instrument. It was like a body part that he can, again, he can, again, he can. can change a string as he's playing. Me, if I'm changing a string, I need 10 minutes. I need to retune. I got to get my tuner, put it on my knee.

I got a new whole thing there. And with Jimmy Hendricks, I'm left-handed. I play left-handed. But Jimmy Hendrix kind of screwed me up because he played upside down left-handed. So he played like in the most difficult left-handed way where I actually bought a left-handed guitar and switched it around. But yeah, no, I am a music nerd to where when you mention all those guys like that excites me a whole lot. How often do you play now? Not nearly enough anymore. You probably know this when you're playing in a band and you're gigging out. That's when you play the most. That's when you're

on top of your chops and everything. I always feel bad thinking about having a talent that I'm exercising more regularly. So I haven't really been playing outside of, certainly not out of bands. Maybe on set it was jamming, but not like I really should or one to. That's super cool that you're so musical. Was there a dream of being in a band? Were you ever in a band as a kid? I know you said he played, but did you ever get together with friends and think you'd make it for a second? Oh, yeah, that was my dream. I still, when people talked about having a purpose in life or what was their dream, it was the moment I picked up a guitar 10 years old.

I said, this is it. And my naïveite, I said, I'm going to be a rock star. So it's funny that I got detoured off into another direction. I live by Cheriously through these musicians. I met Nicole Kidman and Keith Urban. The other night of the charity function we were doing, and I chatted with Keith. I was just sharing that with, and I said, you play with such joy and freedom. It's everything that I imagine what music means when I play.

And he said the critical thing that he always remembers is to play. The playfulness of playing. Like in the other thing, like you'll do something if it's for it to music or the kid and you did it because you loved it until if it became a profession, then there's all these other things and attachments and responsibilities that distract you from it. That really resonated for me. Keith Urban is actually a really good friend of mine. And yeah, to watch him play if it's for 10 people or for 10,000.

And did he play at the event, I guess, that you were there? Did he play in front of you? No, he didn't. They were making their parents who were doing a charity wall down in Fort Worth, Texas, the celebrity cutting competition that they do every year. Oh, yes, well, the sharing is actually right now. And it's raising money now at this point. It was for kids with cancer.

They're trying to build a hospital there. It's what it works of people that have to come in. You don't have to drive all the way to Dallas when there's a demographic of people that to really use the hospital. So, yeah, there was a number of actors that come to compete in a cutting competition from Yellowstone to the other shows, Linus, 1923. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. And my point with that was that he does.

He plays, if it's 10 people, if it's in a room, he has so much. fun. It's just like he lights up like a child even now when he plays guitar and he look at that and you go, man, the inspiration, somebody who still loves what they do so much, even though they've done it at the highest level, but they still, like I've been to his house and he has a studio in his house and to watch him create music. To watch somebody still loves something that much and they've done it for that long. Like to me, that is inspiring. And I would think that as a creative yourself, it's really cool to see people love what they do, even when they've reached really high level. is doing it. It's this sense of belief we have in ourselves, right? You can actually be really good

at something and not have that confidence yourself. Everybody else around you can see it, but it hasn't embedded itself in you for you to step out and actually take the risks of exploring exactly what your potential is. I'm talking to myself here. You're talking to me too, though. Don't worry. You're talking to both of us. I have two final questions for you. And this is the most cliche question ever, but I just like talking to you. I feel like you're a super smart guy, so I'm going to follow your advice here.

What's a good show now that you either just finished or you're in the middle of where you're like, man, this is amazing. I need to recommend it to everybody. Well, it'll sound like I'm biased. I love all of Taylor's shows. They're so unique. And it's incredibly amazing how it can create a world,

all separate from one another. And I just finished Landman with Billy Bob Thornton, who I'm a big fan of as well. That was really worth watching. And then Lioness. Lioness was awesome. Yeah, it's just a kick-ass. I really appreciate the time.

I am a big fan. The agency, if you watch that, by the way, it is A-plus Elite as well. On Hulu, it's Taylor Sheridan. Man, it is, it's CIA. Yeah. Landman is just starting for us because we don't like to wait week-to-week because we're creatures of we like to have it all at once. But the agency just finished.

That would be the one I would recommend back to you. Okay. I'm a big fan. So thank you for spending a half hour with me. This has been awesome. I hope you weren't totally annoyed by all my questions about your life in detail. But keep up to great work and I can't wait to see whatever you're in next. Well, it's a real pleasure to meet you and chat with you as well. You're a great little interviewer there, Bobby. Oh, well, thank you. You'll have a great rest of the day. Thank you. You too.

The Yellowstone official podcast hosted by me, Bobby Bones, and brought to you by IHeartMedia Podcasts and MTV Entertainment Studios. Big shout out to executive producers, Jason Reed, Lindsey Hoffman, Carl Cato, and Kevin O'Connell. Also, our senior manager of podcast marketing, Ali Kanner Graber, for keeping the word out. And of course, a big thanks to Will Pearson,

president of IHeartMedia Podcasts for him supporting this show. We've also got special thanks going out to Whitney Baxter, Xavier Offreye, Barbara Parada, Emily Curry, and Joe Flattery. You guys make this happen. This podcast is produced in association with 101 Studios. over there, executive producer Scott Stone and director of podcast development

and production, Danielle Waxman. We also got to give a big nod to Michelle Newman, David Glasser, and David Hutkin for their support. Thank you guys for tuning in. See you next week. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human.