The Bobby Bones Show - Lots to Say: The Masters, Dean Blandino, and NFL Draft Prep!

Episode Date: April 15, 2026

Bobby Bones and Matt Cassel recap watching The Masters and thoughts of attending the event at some point.  Matt questions the story about NFL Prospect Reuben Bain coming out now and the impact it has on the NFL Draft.  FOX Sports Rules Analyst Dean Blandino gives his thoughts on negotiations between the NFL and the Referees.  How will the NFL prepare for the possibility of a deal not being reached? Dean talks about the balance between technology and humans officiating the game. Matt asks about refs getting graded and how are they picked for the best games?  Looking at the NFL Draft, Matt offers his thoughts on the plans on the Cowboys.  Which teams have multiple picks to add real value to their roster?  Lots to Say with Bobby Bones and Matt Cassel is part of the NFL Podcast Network See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Lots to say with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle is a production of the NFL and IHart podcast. We got lots to say. We got lots to say. Here's Bobby. Hey, hey. I know we're a few days out now, but you ever been to the Masters?

I haven't been to the Masters. I really want to go, actually. My brother's been in the last four years. He was there Saturday, Sunday this year. He said it was incredible. You have the kind of pool that could get us to go to the Masters, though. I think that you have a little bit of pull yourself. We should combine our pool then.

We should do that. Because I think individually, maybe we don't have enough pull individually, but to get our forces combined, we could definitely make it happen. We could probably make it happen. And I think last weekend probably would have been the weekend to go because the weather was incredible all four days. It was a great tournament. Did you watch it?

Yeah, well, I wanted much money. Did you? Yeah. You have Rory? I did. Did you? Golf is the hardest thing to bet because there's a 10,000. players at the beginning of it, but I did bet Rory.

So it was good. It was fun. I've been before, but I don't know. I don't know. We should go or something. We should definitely go. I'm ready, but you weren't going to go this year anyway. You're on the shelf for a little bit, buddy. Not a lot of travel. Have you played Augusta? No, I have not. And gosh, it looks beautiful.

I think that course would eat me alive. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. You're playing Augusta. I shot 110. I played Augusta. I got given a round at Augusta for my birthday. three years ago. Have I told you this story? No. I may have told somebody else this story.

So the head of CAA is a member there and that was my agency. And for my birthday, I got around because you have to play with a member. Right. And then I left CAA. You left CAA before you

accomplished playing Augusta? I know. Why did you have to change your agent right away? Can't you just wait until right after and then bring the bad news Thank you for the round, by the way. Do it on the 18th hole?

Yeah. Relationship-wise, I'm just going in a different direction with my career. No, you decided that it wouldn't be right. For my birthday, I was given a master's polo. And I'd already been once, but I was given a master's polo, and I was like, okay. It was like four years after I'd gone. And is it okay? I guess I'll wear it. But it wouldn't be in my mix of golf shirts.

Most of my golf shirts are red or white. They're usually Arkansas raised by golf shirts. Of course they are. And so, I was like, okay. And they were like, there's a note in it. And it was like one round of golf at Augusta. That's so bad. And I did have to consider that when I left agencies.

You did. You should have said as a negotiation chip, I would have said to the next agency, look, here's a deal. Oh, that's so good. I'm about to go over to your agency, but this is what they just put in front of me. Can you make this happen? I should tell them that now. You understand I left?

Do you know I left and I had a round? I was reading the unwritten rule of autographing a master's flag. So you probably seen a million master's flags signed, right? Do you have any signed master's flags? No. I don't either. And so there's a protocol when it comes to signing one of the master's flags. And it has everything to do with who can and can't in what areas to sign on that yellow flag.

So if you can picture in your head, it is the yellow flag. I'm colorblind, but I believe it's green. The shapes are green on it, right? Everybody? Sure. A lot of green. Okay, good. So,

On it, you'll see the outline of the United States of America where the golf hole in the area where Augusta, Georgia is on the map. That would make sense. Unless a golfer has won the Masters, he's expected to sign on the outside of that logo. You have to sign out and around it. Only Masters champions are permitted to sign within the logo.

Fair. Consider it the Masters version of Fight Club, though, because they don't talk about that. Yeah, it's probably the unwritten rule, right? In golf, you have a lot of those unwritten rules, how you handle yourself around the green, who goes first, all that stuff. It's such a gentleman's sport, but that would be the ultimate unwritten role. Do you play any at all?

Have you played any golf at all? None. Zero. I am youth sports all day long every day. Not you're not playing them. You're going to them. Going to them. Yeah.

Playing youth sports. It would be awesome. I would dominate a fourth grade basketball game or even, dude, I'd love one at bat in the league right now. I bet you though you're such a natural athlete that you're. you get back on the golf course and you're probably, and I don't know what you shoot normally anyway, but you're probably,

you know, high 70s without playing in a year. No chance. I'm probably low 80s. That's the same thing. No, it's not. High 70s is completely different. That's really the same thing,

that's making, that's shipping, it's doing all that. You want to know on, so Master's Sunday, I was at a gymnasium from 11 o'clock in the morning till 8.30 at night.

So I watched maybe about four holes total during that time period. So I'm dedicated to use sports, but get this. I wake up in the morning on Sunday. Kids ask me, Dad, can we get donuts? Of course. It's super stoked, beautiful day.

Walk outside to go to my car, and I look out, and there's feathers everywhere. We got chickens, right? There's feathers everywhere. I go, oh, my God. And then it dawned on me. The day before, we'll let the chickens out and let them free roam around the house and stuff like that. And we didn't put them back because we got home the night before, like around 8, 30, 840 at night. So we left them out that night.

And we've done that in the past, not had any problems. I walk up on this hill, dead chicken. I look to my right, feathers, dead chicken. I start walking around the back of my property. Dead chicken, dead chicken, six in total of my eight in the flock. And I was like, it looked like a massacre, dude. And whatever animal did it, whether it was a raccoon, fox, it only ate the head of one of my chickens.

And every other one, they just killed. ate no meat. Mered it. Like the most menacing animal ever. Just went around, killed my chickens, left them there, and didn't eat any meat. Did you feel bad? He left the chickens out? Felt really bad.

Did the kids see the dead chickens? Two of the three did. My son said, like, he loves animals. He's like, Dad, I don't want to see that. My youngest daughter came out after she heard the news that dead chickens were everywhere because my 14-year-old kind of announced it to the group. I was already in the process of going around with the trash bag and just picking them up, putting them in. Right?

And she's like, Dad, I want to see. I was like, why do you want to see? She's like, I just want to see them. I opened it up. And she goes, oh, that's disgusting. And that was it. That was it. But my older one, she kind of helped me find the chickens.

But she wasn't too scarred from it. Maybe she's going to have some nightmares. I mean, I literally felt terrible. Will you buy new chickens? Yes. We're already in the process. My wife was like, I'll just look at the, look at it. them. But when you get the little chicks, right, they come in a box. We order these from Ohio.

They literally ship them to the post office. I went. They mailed chicks? Mailed chicks. And I would go and I pick this thing up when we first got these chickens six years ago. And I was like, what's in here? It was just a small box. And all you hear is chirping and this, that and the other, you open it up. There's 10 baby chicks. But raising the baby chicks, for the first few months is a chore because you have to contain them. They have to have a heat lamp. You're still... Then how do they eat when you mail them?

I have no idea. You better pick them up early. Oh, my God. Yeah, because if you don't go to the mailbox... We filled this one up. They wanted the egg layers and this type and this set. And we're just going to ship them out and hope for the best. Yeah.

Is that wild? That's wild. We had a bunch of foxes at the property. We just moved from a couple years ago. And they were all over the place. and so much so they were kind of taunting our dogs and we have one dog that's a hound and man she wanted to catch and eat some foxes

bread to do that she was a rescue but like generationally they want to catch fox we had seven or eight foxes and they were all in the yard all the time and so we were going to put out fox traps not to kill them but to catch them and then we were going to have a guy take and release them and so that we were going to kill them

don't kid yourself hey we weren't because I did an episode of Breaking Bobby Jones with a guy in town that wasn't animal trapper, but his whole thing was he puts them back in the woods. So I just called him. Yeah. We had a guy like that come out because we had like groundhogs or whatever underneath. I don't want you to kill him. Well, actually, I don't care what you do with them when you're out of my sight. But just tell me you're not going to kill him. Did you actually meet him when they came to your house? This guy had three cages in the back with a possum, a raccoon, just all in the back of his truck when he came over to like scope out what job we had. It was wild. Jack the Trapper was

his name. I met him because I did an episode of my Nat Geo show with him when we were trapping different animals. He comes to the property and he's like hey, here's what we're going to do. We're going to put these traps up and we're going to put these wildlife cams in. Very small wildlife camps. And the foxes will come and you'll catch them fine. And so we

would look at them the next morning and not only were there foxes but there were bobcats like crazy in our backyard. They were trying to get the foxes. So when I think about that, I think of the animals that could eat and the chicken, it could have been anything. It could have been a fox could have been Bobcat Could have been a full lion

You just don't know around here Yeah everybody's like you think maybe a coyotes I was like coyotes are going to eat them I thought coyote first two when you said that They run in packs but they're also going to eat their prey Wolf Yeah there's definitely wolves back there Maybe even a big grizzly bear

Hungry man Cave man Yeah sasquatch just going out there I'm sorry to hear about your chicken losses man Yeah it was tough tough weekend at the castle house And then my dog of course has Tours ACL I told you that Two weeks ago

And now his other leg is like collapsing behind him. I'm like, oh, here we go. So we take him to the vet. They're like, yeah, you have to get a more advanced imagery on his, the backside, because if it's his spinal thing, he's got a bulging disc, then that could create paralysis basically in the lower half of his legs and he won't be able to use it. I was like, here we go. It's been a week for animals in the castle household. Did you know dogs only have two legs? Come again on the quick run? So I'm glad he said, come again. So what happened? So my bulldog is torn both ACLs. And when he tore the first one,

they said the second one's probably going to follow because he's going to have to rehab, he's going to be pretty much off-kilter the whole time, he's going to put more pressure on the good leg. All this is going to happen, he's probably going to tear the second one. He tears the first one. It was a nightmare like you're talking about. We got to put him in the cone. We've got to put him in the cage. He's got to

have the surgery. He tears the second one. And I'm like, okay, what about third and the fourth one? No, no, the front two, there are arms. They walk on them, but they don't have ACLs. So they're arms. There are no ACLs, MCL, there's nothing in those front. Wow. They're just, yeah.

Yeah, interesting. You learned something new. I didn't know that either. Nat Geo, baby. Nat Geo Wild. Because it's four, you think, four legs. And yeah, it's four legs. But only the back two have ACLs, MCL.

It's like what we'd have in our human legs. That's why you never see them have an ACL in their front leg. Because they don't have one. Yeah, but they can't break a finger in their front, though. A finger? No, there are no thing. I was like, you know, now explain this one in the front? No, no, no, no.

So my story was about the master's flag. I just wondered if. you'd ever been because you're a fancy. No, no, I haven't been. You're like fancy and good looking and tall and like all the things. Fancy, I would never put myself. But the people at the Masters are all like you. Like dress nice, look good.

It is amazing to see how bougie the Masters is. When you look up in the crowd and everybody's got their perfect tease on, like they're going out to golf that day and it's the golf clap and just raw. Yeah, we call those people around here. We call them castles. Any castles over there? Like, yeah, yeah, three castles over there. Three castles.

Look at those assholes. All right. Well, I mean, did you see the story that came out on the NFL prospect, Ruben Bain, right? The defensive lineman. I got it. Yeah. And that happened two years ago. And, you know, I feel bad for the young man because...

Tell the whole story, get if you don't mind. Do you have it there? Okay. Well, the story goes that back in 2024, there was an accident and there was a wreck that happened. And one of the passengers that were in the vehicle passed away. And I am very sensitive to that because the story comes. out and it's a very public story. And I don't know why it's surfaced right now, but all the, you know, when you see some of these stories, it's always somebody has an agenda. And I feel bad for him because he's a young man at the time. It's two years removed for that. And it's supposed to be the best time of his life leading up to the draft, but he has to revisit this. And the family of the victim, obviously, has to revisit it. But I just find it very interesting that why does somebody feel the need to write this article right now? Is it to, to pull this guy down, to create thoughts in the front office, because this is one of those

situations. If you're potentially going to draft him, now you've got to go through ownership because it's one of those things that, hey, we want to draft him. We believe in this kid. And the incident doesn't say anything about his character. And I think the hard part for me a lot of times is when you get to this stage in the draft and there's not a lot going on, but you're leading up to the draft. It's more about individuals, media, are trying to tear you down rather than to build you up. They're literally looking at all the negatives that could potentially happen. And in this circumstance, I feel like not one moment doesn't define anybody.

And you see it time and time again with players that have had incidents come up. I mean, I think about Laramie Tunzel when he had the mask on. The day of the draft. Yeah, they had the mask on and all that and he dropped. And then there's a guy. Those are the day of the draft, right? Then that came out like the day of the draft. Yeah, never good luck.

Right. But, again, smoking wheat through a huge mask. Yes. And it's so easy for people to jump to judgment, because even when I saw that, I was like, oh, my God, this looks awful. But, I mean, Lermy Tunzel has been a lockdown left tackle for multiple organizations, been an outstanding professional, but it has never had any issues. However, these stories do come up. And it's just, I find it interesting, the timing of it for Ruben Baines going into this draft because he's consistent. considered to be a top 15 draft pick.

Yeah, you said it. They want to create character issue, so possibly he falls. That would be the route. Right. Because it was known, this car accident was. The family has also, from what I read Forgiven him, all of that has existed. It wasn't talked about for a long time, but it's surfacing again because, yes, he's going to be one of the top 15, top 10 picks.

But it's somebody's goal to have him fall a bit and possibly two. them, that's why those stories get late. You really think an organization would help implant that story? YES. And would feel totally fine with their conscience about going out there and drafting him to their organization after they release that. Oh, yeah, of course. Business.

God, that's just awful. Because they didn't lie. There's no lie here. There is no lie. The incident happened. But at the same time, I think that's just the most shady business. Also not disagreeing with you. So shady.

But I think this happens every year. You see it with small hands. You see it with, is he too injury prone character issues? We could kind of go down the list of things as the draft gets closer. When some of these players are, it's hopeful that they'll fall, you start to see the stories come out. Yeah, I mean, you think about it. Ray Lewis was drafted 24th because of potential character issues. Ed Reed was 21st.

Now, we're not talking about significant, but those two guys, the careers that they had, even Dan Marino you can go back to him. He was drafted late and he was talked about his character issues. All these things come out all the time. I get it. But it doesn't necessarily mean that these players aren't going to be outstanding. So it's a judgment call

by the organization, the GMs. It's just, I feel bad for the player himself because this should be a time that you're just excited about and you've moved on and now you've got to revisit the whole situation. We're going to bring on Dean Blanino in just a second who if, yeah, we'll talk

to him and tell you his whole story, but when it comes to officiating, like, he's really good. He's really good. Yeah. You know what the crazy part about Dean is he's been in that space for so long and was the head of the replay officiating and all that stuff? He never wasn't on the field official, which is wild when you think about that because he's done a lot for the NFL and developing the replay system, but that is his specialty, and he knows it as good as anybody, but he also has never actually been on the field.

Yeah, let's challenge him with that. Get on the field, Dan. Get on the field, bro. If you know so much, get on the field. That would be such a good start to the interview. All right, we'll bring on Dean in just one second. Pride is like love. You feel it in your heart.

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You would know Dean Blanino is the guy who comes on TV and explains the call that has everybody losing their minds. But before Fox Sports, Dean spent years inside the NFL, worked in replay, eventually became the league's vice president of officiating. So if there's anybody who can help us, make sense of the rules, the controversy, and why fans think the refs are out to get them, it is Dean Blanino. Dean, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me. Always good to catch you. up and talk a little rules and conspiracy and everything else that people that people want to chat about. Dean, for those people that are listening and really maybe not understanding everything going on between the NFL and the NFL reps right now, can you kind of give us a broader landscape of what's going on and what the controversy is about? Sure.

So the NFL, it's called the NFL RA, the NFL Referees Association, just like the players have the players association, the officials have their own association. They negotiate a collective bargaining agreement with the league. That bargaining agreement expires on May 31st coming up. And so they're in the process of negotiating. And look, it comes down to, just like any other negotiation, a lot of it's around money, how much these officials are paid, the game fees, the access to the game officials, other things like marketing fees, their retirement, all of those things are

part of this. We all, you know, a few around and you remember the replacement reps from 2012 and how that went. I don't think anybody wants to see that. So hopefully they can get a deal done. We still got some time. You know, obviously, we're not going to be playing games for a couple of months. So right now they're negotiating. I think the last thing I read was a couple of the owners got involved and they made some progress. So I hope that they can get a deal done before we start playing games. What do you think the number one thing is the refs want if you had to kind of tear it out? I think from from the referee's perspective, they look at the NFL and they say, look, the NFL is the most popular. It's it's the most valuable. The revenues are through the roof. Coaches get paid

the most and the players, you know, the salary cap keeps rising, all of these things. And they feel that they should be paid commensurate with that, right? They should be paid like major league baseball umpires and, and NBA referees. Um, and the league's perspective is, well, but those officials are full time. You're not, right? The way football is played, it's one game a week.

So historically, these officials, NFL officials, football officials, they have other jobs, whereas baseball umpires don't have other jobs because they're working, you know, they're not working 162 games a year, but they're working 120, maybe 125 games a year. So I think that's, kind of the sticking point right now. And again, if that's the biggest thing, then I think a deal gets done. It's just, you know, finding that sweet spot and getting everybody on the same page. Dean, say they're not able to reach an agreement. How do you go about getting replacement officials

and how do you vet those guys? Where do they come from? Are they collegiate high school? I don't even know, but how do you go about that? No, it's a great question. And look, so right now the league is already putting feelers out at the college level. And they are going, you know, all the way from FBS, D1, down to D3, and trying to canvass and get people that are interested. And they're offering pretty significant when it comes to money to be a part of this program. So they would start training these officials. You know, you start canvassing. You have coordinators around the country college coordinators, D2, D3 that are responsible for these different conferences, and they're out there trying to canvas and get these officials to say, okay, we're going to

start this program, we're going to start training you, we're going to get you to these camps and clinics, OTAs, you know, get you to practices, get you to, you know, get on the field with these NFL players. It's a heavy, heavy lift. You can't go, in my opinion, you cannot go from D3 to the NFL and make that transition. It's just impossible. The game's too fast. There's too much going on from a production standpoint, the television aspect of it. You're not dealing with, you know, primetime broadcast in D3 where you are in the NFL.

So it's a heavy lift. We saw what happened in 2012. They're in the process of trying to identify these officials. One of the things that the top college officials will probably say no because they don't want to be seen as kind of, for lack of a better phrase, crossing them picket line, right? Because it's kind of this officiating community. So it's going to be interesting if they don't get a deal done, what level of official do we get? And what is it due to the game and the product and everything else that goes into it? It's going to be interesting. Well, you touched on what I was going to ask next. If you do move up and temporarily

become a replacement ref, are you a scab in essence? And could you, could it affect your career later and wanting to be an NFL official? No question. There's no question. Look, and you won't find anybody at the NFL in a leadership perspective that will say that officially. They can't. But the reality is, is officials that worked in 2012 that were replacement officials were

seen, like you said, as scabs. And it affected their career. It affected relationships. And so if you, if it were me, and I'm in a position. where I'm a very, very, very good college football official, and I have aspirations to go to the NFL and I have a real chance, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it because of just all of those other things,

the politics and everything else that goes into it, because that's real. And it happened in 2012 with officials that were replacements and they were ostracized. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It's just it happened. And I know I've read a lot of stuff about if we do get to that point, that the NFL has said that they might expedite,

the process by having a lot more replay involved, maybe yourself or whoever it might be, that would sit there, review the play, get it right on the field so it doesn't slow the game down itself. Is that true? Absolutely. So they did pass, as part of the most recent league meeting, one of the proposals was in the instance that we have replacement officials, they'll expand the replay program and replay assist, where from the command center they can get involved in more things than they would normally do. So I think the league is looking at that as kind of a backstop to help these officials that are going to be overwhelmed, going from the lower levels of college to the NFL like we talked about. So the command center would be more involved.

It would be interesting again, because you don't want to unnecessarily slow down the game. Does that become cumbersome where, you know, every time there's a flag thrown, are we waiting for someone in the command center to give a yay or nay? So one of the things about football is, you know, as you know, that it's momentum and flow and those types of things. And if you have a lot of stops and stars, that can negatively impact the game. But yeah, there will be, the command center would be more involved if we do have replacement reps. The enemy of the man is the robot. And now the bell has already been rung on replay.

So we're never, that tube, that toothpaste never going back in the tube. However, we've now changed with the chain gang and the marking of the ball, the spotting of the ball. With the referees just want there to be less robots, less goal line robots, less sensors, because again, it does get into a place of once you start to have more and more sensors in areas where there are cameras, the less you need for humans. No question. And we went back. I mean, I was at the league office back in 1998 when we knew that we were going to bring replay back and we brought it back for the 99th season.

And I remember George Young, who was Hall of Fame, General Manager, you know, a person that was very important in the NFL. And he said it, you know, he said, you know, once we go down this path, we're never going to pull back. We're just going to expand. And we're going to continue to grow and grow and grow. And I think that's where we are with this technology, that the technology is great.

And we want to get calls right. But at what cost to the overall, you know, health of the game, whereas, look, the game's played by humans, it's coached by humans, it's officiated by humans. And that human element is so important. And do you want to have that kind of that robotic, big brother type after every call? I don't think that would be a game that we would all enjoy watching. So you've got to find that right balance.

You look at baseball with the ABS now. That's a really hard thing to call balls and strikes for 300 pitches a game. And we're talking about millimeters. And that puts the umpire under intense scrutiny. And so it has an effect. All of that replay and all of that double-checking has an effect on the mentality of the person doing it. And I think that that's something that we don't talk about enough. You know, in your current job, you actually get the ability to look at the replay and say whether or not you believe that it was called correctly.

Have you ever got criticized by the people that you were criticizing for, hey, dude, how do you call me out on that? When you saw it this way, I saw it that way. And there's a fine line, too, because these officials are being told, this is how we have to officiate this particular play. And a lot of times the fans don't understand that. But tell me about some of those interactions. Does it ever get heated? No question. Look, and it's a fine line.

It's like an analyst. It's like Tom, you know, it's like Tom Brady or Greg Olson or, you know, you played the game. And now you have to criticize something and you walk that line. It's the same thing on the officiating side. We get the benefit of watching it, slow motion. a couple of different looks, the on-field official looks at it once, their perspective, they have to make a call. But my job is I have to be, I have to give my opinion.

And if I disagree with it, I have to voice that. But I think there's a way to do it without being, you know, disrespectful or throwing the official under the bus. You could explain that, look, from their perspective, this is what they saw. Obviously, look at the replay, that's not what happened. And I think the officials, and, you know, I have great relationships. relationships with a lot of the people that I worked with. I think they understand that. I think they understand as long as you're not mean-spirited and you're not, you know, oh, that's just awful and those

types of things. I think they get it. Look, the scrutiny at the NFL, if you're involved with the NFL, the level of scrutiny is through the roof. And officials are not immune to that. They get it. They understand the pressure and everything else. So, but you just, you know, I try to be mindful of how I'm articulating that. I got to give my opinion. I have to disagree when I feel that way. But it's how you do it sometimes can kind of soften the the blow a little bit. If a call is overturned, is that a punch in the pride? Yeah, I mean, look, it absolutely is. And when replay first came in, that was a big deal.

They did not, officials did not want to get their call overturn. And then over time, it was like, hey, at the end of the day, if we got it right, that's a good thing. Because now nobody's looking at the officials after the game. And it is, it's like, think about in any wall. of, you know, any job, any profession, imagine you have to make decisions and then somebody's coming in and going, nope, wrong, we're going to do it the other way. That, there's a mentality. You have to be very strong mentally to be able to handle that. The officials have kind of gotten over that, that fear of being overturned. And now it's like, look, at the end of the day,

we got it right. We're all a team on-field replay. And ultimately, it's a good thing. With all the rule changes, particularly in player safety, you talk about the quarterback and the hit zone, so to speak, or defenseless wide receiver, what do you think is the hardest play that they would have to officiate in terms of making a call whether or not it was a defenseless receiver or a quarterback? Because you see a lot of those are the ones that people really get up and angst about because of the call.

They just think it could have gone the other way. Sure. Look, those 15-yard penalties are so big. And you think about rough in the past, and I think the league has made you know, and some people would say, and I kind of agree with them to some extent that we probably over protect the quarterback today compared to maybe 15, 20 years ago, but it's such a premium position. There aren't a lot of, there just aren't a lot of people walking the planet that can play that position at a very high level. So you want to protect those. You're in a defenseless posture a lot of

time looking downfield. So I think that's one that that everybody's done a good job. You know, I think the referees have gotten better. I think the defensive players have gotten a lot better. Those bang, bang, hits downfield, those are really hard to officiate because it happens so quickly. The ball gets there, the contact. Defender trying to make a play on the ball ends up maybe getting piece of the headneck area. Those are tough, but I think the rules change is that really kind of started to go in early 2000s and then expanded beyond that. The players have adjusted, the coaches have adjusted. And I think you're just not seeing the type of hits that you saw maybe 20 years ago where

safeties aren't blowing guys up. You know, they are letting up. And those are tough calls to officiate, but I think everybody's kind of doing a good job in that area. Pride Month, Toronto. Pride is an opportunity for you to create your own space, to celebrate your existence.

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this visibility that they've never had before. We have a ton to celebrate Toronto. Happy Pride. I heart radio. I feel like referees are kind of like dragons on Game of Thrones where I know you can't really ride a dragon. It's like you can't really be a referee. That's like a fictional thing. How does one become an NFL?

Like today, how would I start if I wanted to become an NFL referee? First of all, I love the Game of Thrones reference. I'm a huge Game of Thrones fan. But anyway. So, yeah, how do they become a referee? It's a great question, and I get asked that a lot. Really, it's just the most NFL officials started at the youth level. And they just, whether they had somebody, a family member, a friend,

somebody connected them and said, hey, you should, you should try officiating. A lot of times it's a lot of officials, you know, played football, played sports, wanted to stay involved in the sports. They weren't going to get to the NFL as a player. So they just start at the youth level. They start working, whether it's now a lot of flag leagues. but you're working junior high, you're working high school, you join a local high school association,

and then there's scouts all over the country for college conferences. You move up to D3 to D2. Eventually, you're working FBS. And then the league has, the NFL has scouts in a scouting program, a development program, that they bring in the best college football officials. They start to give them some experience. You'll see them maybe at training camp.

They work some preseason games. And then when the league has openings, they hire from that group, that top group of development officials. So it's not like there are officiating schools, like there are baseball umpiring schools. It's really just an organic process where somebody gets started at the youth level, loves it, continues to work up, and they make the jump to the NFL eventually. So there aren't referee camps per se, but you have to communicate upward that you want someone to find you to look for you? No, yeah, there are camps. There aren't schools, but there are camps. a lot of college conferences will put together camps.

And so regional camps where you can go and work scrimmages and work, whether they have some local high school teams out there or some local junior colleges out there. And you get kind of identified and then you get into a program. So there's camps. But you also have to be, to your point, you have to be the one that's also canvassing and soliciting and trying to move up the ladder and networking to get to that next level.

What are some of the new rule changes for this season that you feel are going to be most impactful in the game? Yeah, you know, there weren't a ton. You know, there were only four that didn't involve the replacement officials, which I like. One of the things, you know, if you're changing a bunch of rules every year, it's just everybody kind of has to either learn something new or kind of recalibrate. So I think the game is in a good spot. You look at, they tweak the kickoff formation. The kickoff was a major, major change.

going into the 24th season with the, you know, they called it the dynamic kickoff, which, which, you know, was to get the return back in the game. And so they tweaked that to allow the kickoff return team to do some different things in that setup zone. I think they're allowing on-site kicks when the team is ahead. I'm not sure if that's going to make a big difference. You know, replay assist will continue to be a big part of the game. But there really isn't anything that jumps off the page from a rule change perspective. that I think is going to be, you know, they didn't do anything with the tush push.

That'll stay in the game. And ultimately, I think that's a good thing when you don't change a bunch of things every year. It just says that the game's in a good place and everybody can kind of continue to fine-tune under the current rules. And I saw, though, that the on-side kick, now it used to be, or currently, it was until the fourth quarter you could do an on-side kick. But now you can do it before that. But you have to tell the other team that you're doing an on-side kick, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing.

I don't know how beneficial that is. It's, yeah, it's, this alignment has gotten rid of the surprise onside kick, which, which kind of, you know, which kind of sucks in a way because that's an exciting play. You think about play, you think about the Saints Colts Super Bowl and you think about those types of things. So you have to declare now the rule is you can do it at any point during the game, any score, you don't have to be behind. I think the onsite kick is something to just to continue to monitor because that play has gotten a lot harder. to execute. The success rate was down to 6% last year. Really, ideally, you'd want that to be somewhere in the, you know, 10, 11% range because without a viable option to get the ball back when you're down multiple scores late in the game, games are over. And if games are over, people aren't going to watch,

right? They're going to go watch something else. So it's really important that you have a onside kick that, look, you can't, it can't be a 50-50 play. But, you know, if you're under, if you're, you know, if it's a two or three percent play, it's like, it's not great. Consciously, I know what the answer would be. So I'm going to ask subconsciously. Do you think subconsciously reps ever make makeup calls? You know, that's a great question too. And look, I'm not a psychologist, but there is, I can't, we try to, the NFL, before it hires an official, there is such an extensive background check. And it goes into everything. It's not just, it looks at your financial setup, your business relationships, your personal relationships, obviously anything, any history of, in terms of with, you know, legal issues.

It also, there's a psychological evaluation and those types of things where, where you're trying to weed out people, you look at, okay, is there an official when they're on that team's sideline, do they call more fouls in favor of that team? Are they affected in that way? And you're monitoring that. You know, when there is a call that goes against one team, do you have officials that tend to throw the flag against the other team? There are all of those things go into place.

And you try to weed that out. Not saying absolutely in the history of sport and officiating, have there been make-up calls? No question. And I don't think it's a conscious thing. Like you said, it's probably a subconscious thing. Officials are human. They look up at the video of the board,

and they're like, man, we kicked that. one. You certainly, you are never directed, you're never taught, you're never, it's, you, you are not supposed to, but, you know, can that happen? Sure, you try to weed those people out, though. From an official standpoint, how are they graded on a week-to-week basis? And then when you see the officials that make it to the playoff runs and then get to officiate the Super Bowl, what does their grade need to be consistently throughout the season in order to get to that level? people always talk about accountability and i think what what they want what fans want is they want after the game they want the referee to stand up there and and field questions or if the if they're if

official was wrong some kind of public for lack of a better term shaming right and and but they are held accountable they they are graded extensively you know after a game um the crew the the the the crew that worked that game they do their own self-evaluation and there's there's kind of a sheet where they go through and they enter in their foul information. If I threw a flag, what I saw, anything else, any play of interest, anything else that came up, hey, third quarter, 13 minutes to go, kick off. I saw this block. Wasn't sure if it was in the back or maybe from the side. Thought about it didn't throw, right? Those types of things. And then you have former officials that will evaluate each game and grade every time an official throws a flag. There are times when the official doesn't

throw the flag. That evaluator may say, hey, yeah, you should have thrown your flag. That was a block in the back. And they get what's called a downgrade. And just like players are graded, the officials are graded. And those grades accumulate throughout the year in each position, there's seven positions out there. Each position is ranked. You know, you have 17 crews, 17 back judges. They're all ranked against each other. So the top ranked back judge, the top tier, those are the officials that are going to be eligible for championship and Super Bowls. You have to meet a certain standard to be eligible for any postseason assignment. If you're not, if you're not, if you don't meet that standard, you go into kind of a remedial

phase where you're getting extra help. And if you continue to be in that lower tier, you get let go. So it's a pretty extensive process. And I can't think of another profession that is evaluated to that. extent, they really go through a lot and it matters because the postseason assignments and whether you stay in the league depends on those grades. Spoken or unspoken rule. Are refs allowed to look at the board?

Are they allowed to like the JumboTron? They're not supposed to. But here's the tell. You'll see sometimes if the officials get together, there might be two or three officials talking and there'll be one kind of listening but off to the side, but they won't, you know, they're not supposed to like, but their eyes will be kind of looking up. and they may be peaking. It's happened before. They're not supposed to, though. Based on what you just said, so could there be a crew that has never officiated together a game,

but because they were the highest ranked official for that season as a back judge, that they're placed with a new crew? Yeah, so for the postseason, the assignments are done individually. So the crews that work, for the most part, during the regular season, the crews, seven officials work together throughout the year. But then in the postseason, it's the highest ranked officials at each position. And now you're trying to create some of the continuity. So you can put some officials together that work together throughout the year. But it's not going to be the same seven officials for the most part. And you could get officials that haven't worked together. And that's always been the debate.

You know, the teams don't split up when you make the postseason. So why should the officials, the flip side of that is if you have a very, very good official, one of your best that was on a crew that underperformed, do you want that official sitting at home and not working in the postseason? So it's kind of a, you know, I kind of see both sides of it, but yeah, that could happen. All right. Final question. I've read a lot of studies on judges and what day that you want to, if you have to go to court, be in front of a judge, and even what time of day,

because they could be hungry or ready to get off work. And again, back to the subconscious part of a referee, the same thing with a judge if you're in front of the judge. That being said, if you're a ref and you're in front of a coach, all day, and he is just chewing you out, and you're hungry or you're sick or you're, like, that's got to affect the psyche where you would possibly throw a flag a little earlier, right? Well, yeah, I always, it's funny, because I always talk to coaches when I was at the league office and I was in charge of officiating, you know, coaches, I'd get, I'd get the call

either Sunday night or Monday, and that, then those were, those were legit therapy calls because there's nothing I could do. I couldn't affect what happened on the game, you know, the game on Sunday. Sunday. That was just, you know, they want a vent or whatever it may be. But I always talk to coach, I've listened, how would you feel if somebody's just chewing you out the entire game and just up your, you know, you know what, the entire game? And then you want that official to like communicate positively with you. It's just we're all human. We're all, you know, I'm like, you know, I'm like, screw this guy. I'm not going to. Now, now it shouldn't affect whether you throw a flag or not,

but from a communication standpoint, it absolutely can have an effect. And yeah, that's why we, you know, it's interesting when I first started, we didn't, and I started, I was an intern in the officiating department back in 94. And we didn't have, nobody talked about sleep and diets and workouts and all those things. It's come, just like I think in society itself, all of that has come to the forefront. And yeah, your diet and your sleep patterns and your energy levels and everything else. You've got to be at peak to go out and perform both mentally and physically. And yeah, that's a big, big deal.

But, yeah, coaches can wear on you. And there were a few coaches during my time where when the phone rang, I'd be like, oh, yeah, cool. I want to talk to him and others where I'm like, oh, do I really want to pick this up? But it happens. Dean, did I read that you did stand-up comedy? And how to stand-up comedy? How did you get into officiating if you're doing stand-up?

You're a stand-up comedian. Because Bobby is a stand-up comedian, too. Bad, I'm... No, your nails, dude. I, you know, it's interesting. I started, like I said, I graduated, got out of school, and I wanted to stay involved in sports, played sports my whole life. I didn't have any officiating background.

I just sent my resume to the NFL, MLB. I grew up in New York. They all have offices in New York City. And the NFL called, and I got an internship opportunity in officiating. They interviewed. They offered me the position. So that's how I got started in officiating. And then I had a friend that was working at the league office that was an actress, comedian,

and she's like, you know what, you should try it. And eventually I mustered up enough courage, some liquid courage as well. And I got up on stage and did it and loved it. It was never a career goal of mine. I was just doing it because I like to do it, living in New York City, go do open mics or go do shows. But it's definitely helped. I mean, it's the hardest thing that I've ever done, you know, just getting up. there a lot of times in a bunch of strangers and it helped me deal with coaches it helped me

deal with standing up in groups and public speaking so yeah it was never a goal a career goal of mine it was just something I did uh you know when I was working at the NFL Dean we really appreciate the time rarely do we finish an interview and I feel smarter so thank you for because I definitely know a lot more than I did before we started uh thank you for the time and man let's pray to God we get this thing settled right absolutely absolutely appreciate the time and I'm always always happy to come chat with you guys. All right. Thanks, Dave. Pride Month, Toronto.

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Did you see the picture of the guy holding the sign outside the Lions facility by any chance this morning yesterday morning? I heard about it. Okay, so he was the arena football league defensive player of the year. And so I didn't know that. I looked him up once I saw him. He's standing out. He's got his shoes around his neck. He's holding the sign.

And it just says, you know, here are some stats. and just looking for a chance. He put his stats up there, right? Just looking for a chance. His name is Freddie McGee the third. He's not giving up on his NFL dreams. He was seen outside the facility of the Lions holding a poster with his AFL stats

as he campaigned for the chance to earn a spot on the roster. I feel like that sentence is a little misleading because I don't think anyone is fighting for a roster spot from that. I think they're fighting for a chance to have a chance to make the roster.

Yes. To get into camp. Just to get anything. Just to get a look. Just please give me a look, a try out, anything. And it's a desperation move. There's no doubt about that. But good for him, you know?

He's advocating for himself until the security removed him from the premises. He played five seasons at Eastern Michigan. He told 85 tackles, 11 passes defended, two fumble recoveries, and an interception across 47 games. Those numbers and where he played wasn't good enough to get him in the NFL, but he proved he could play in the AFL. And on his poster, his stats were 14 interceptions, 25 pass breakups,

defensive player of the year, no agent one shot. So I'm hoping he gets a look somewhere. It could even be the USFL. I think it's anywhere, you get a little fame, you're going to get clicks, people will give you a chance.

It's with that chance. Can you actually prove that you belong? I do believe he will get a chance somewhere even if it's like the USFL. So I do, but I admire, because it, that hurts, You got to remove your pride to do that. Yeah, I absolutely admire it.

I just don't know. Imagine he does get an opportunity, which he potentially will. I hope he does. But can you imagine all the NFL teams the next day, if he gets picked up, there's going to be 50 people outside of every facility holding up their stats going, just give me a shot. I've been in the arena football. They didn't do it first, though.

They didn't do it first. They didn't go on the live wire for sure. So I'm rooting for him. I hope he at least gets a look. I do too I thought it was cool He's wearing his cleats around his neck too I'm not gonna lie

That's pretty cool Like honestly I'm ready to work out today Yeah I'm ready to work out I'm inspired to me to go try it for the NFL too I'm in football season shape Like you want to check me out All right what else you got Give me something else

I think the Cowboys They got two first round picks If I think that there's potential That they move up In the draft to get some One of these Dominant defensive

players that are coming out In this year's draft Because I do think it's a defensive Heavy draft Because they're mid and late I don't have it in front But like 16 and 24 Something like that?

Something like that. 12 and 20. There you go. We were right around the same. I literally just guessing, but thank you very much. But you could package those together and move up and get one of these guys. Because I think that they're a team that if they make a move on the defensive side of the ball and get a game wrecker, so to speak, that they're in position where they could go out and win that division.

And they need some defense. Because you think about the offense, the offense is just so high-powered. Dax in the prime of his career. Pickens is coming back. D. Lam, Pickens. I mean, they've got it all going on the offensive side. If they just get the defensive side of the ball going there, they're ready to win now.

Okay, counterpoint. Counterpoint. Because you said 12 and... 20. You can get a great cornerback. I think the cornerback from Tennessee is on their... You can get two really solid defensive players. Right.

They've got to just draft defense. Either they're going to draft two good defensive players or they're going to move up and draft one, but they can't screw around and go and get... at Jeremiah Love or something just because it's flashy. No, no, absolutely not. They don't do that. The Cowboys will draft the guy outside of Lyon Stadium.

They'll draft a guy that was standing outside of Detroit, just so they get some clicks. But I don't know if they package anything because 12, you're still going to get a quality player, and there's going to be a lot of good defensive players there, whether it's a defensive back or defensive lineman because it's a heavy defensive lineman draft. And like you said, 20 is another very valued pick.

And it's not like you're so far down where you're 32 or something like that. You are 12 and 20. they're sitting pretty right now to really add value to their team this year. Jets are sitting pretty too. They've got two first round picks. Two first round. They've got three in the first 33. And I think that they have maybe the most of any team.

No, the Steelers have 12 picks in the NFL draft this year. They've got five, I think, in the top 100 of the draft. So they're another team. I mean, 12 picks is a ton of picks to add value to your team. And so there's quite a few of these teams. Even Miami, I think of Miami might have 11 picks in this year's draft as well. So you're looking at some of these organizations that why the draft is so important is you can get these guys young, develop them. And at the same time, if you have some impactful players that work out for you and can be the long stay and still be paying that rookie contract and be resourceful with the other amount of your salary cap, it's a big deal.

When I was playing Madden, I hadn't played in a good year. So I'd have like 14 picks, but they were all in round six or seven. Didn't help the team much. You would do drafts in Madden? have you not played Madden? Not in a long time, dude. I've got a lot of stuff going on. I don't just sit in my basement and play Madden.

Also something not nice to say. You sit in your basement. One, I don't have a basement. Hold on. You wouldn't just go out and just play with the teams that they give you, you draft your own team? I bet the quarterback's name was Bobby Bones. You create your own team with your own characters.

Kevin was, Kevin's for sure. You're starting linebacker. Branden's, brand your placeholder. Where this Venom's coming from? I just take that back. I don't know. There's Venom right now for no. reason. There's no venom. I'm just trying to figure out

where you're headplaces. You said I play in the basement. I create myself as a character and I bring all my friends on the team. Well, yeah, I did. I did say that. What you do is at the end of... No, you made your own team. You keep talking. You're just beating me up. Can I, please let me get up before you kick me in the ribs again. Come here, let me pick you up. Thank you. Just like I did my chickens. What? Oh, no. Chickens are dead. What you do is when you finish a season, then you go to the NFL draft.

And then you draft for the next season. But I would make so many trades during the season that I would make all these trades, but then I'd have to, I'd have six and seven, it doesn't matter. So you're playing fantasy football with your football team? No, I'm playing Madden in the basement. In the basement. In my witty tides, eating Doritos. Who was your team that you'd play with? And you'd always really have a good one. What I would do was find a team, for example, I'd find a team with a really great quarterback on the last year of his contract, and I would trade him off for a couple younger players or draft picks, and that's how I kind of build my team back. This is deep. into the weeds. I've been playing college football. I haven't played anything in eight months.

But college football became a game, though, more than madden. Thanks to Dean for coming on. That's Matt Castle on Bobby Bowles. Thanks to kick off Kevin and Brandon Ray. I appreciate you guys. We'll see you next week. We have had lots to say. Goodbye, everybody. Lots to say with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle is a production of the NFL and IHeart Podcast. For more podcasts from IHartRadio, visit the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. podcast. Guaranteed human.